Another terrorist bites the dust

[Maximus]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/11/10/arafat.obit/index.html


US & Israel hard at work. ;)

[IrishHand]

Some might say that he was a man who devoted his life to helping an opressed people fight against a vastly superior and equally immoral enemy. There's a very fine line between a freedom fighter and a terrorist.

[Maximus]

Freedom fighter? LOL! Terrorist, my friend. Just as the US deemed him in 2002.

You're right, there is a fine line, "helping an opressed people fight against a vastly superior and equally immoral enemy" .....

According to history the Jews were far more opressed. For Arafat to constantly fail at what you are calling as freedom fighting (being led by their own freedom fighter Mr. Arafat) he failed to take control of his own people. In fact, he was in control for most of the killings in Israel against the Jews.

READ:

NEW YORK - In response to media reports claiming that Yasir Arafat is
finally arresting terrorists, the Zionist Organization of America (ZOA) has
issued a new report documenting Arafat's history of constantly releasing
terrorists after detaining them for brief periods.

This special report, Letting Killers Go: Yasir Arafat's Releases of
Terrorists, 1994-2001, is available by calling the ZOA at 212-481-1500.

The report includes Arafat's most recent releases, such as the release
of senior leaders of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)
who were briefly detained after the PFLP murdered Israel's Minister of
Tourism.

The report notes that after one of Arafat's alleged roundups of
terrorists in 1994, then-Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin said Arafat's action was
"just public relations," not a real crackdown on the terrorists. Similarly, in
1997, then-Secretary of State Madeleine Albright said that Arafat had a system
of "revolving-door justice" when it comes handling terrorists.

[Maximus]

He studied at Cairo University from 1952 to 1956, receiving an engineering degree in 1956. During his college years, he ran guns from Egypt into Israel, his first known action against the State of Israel; soon after graduation, he began recruiting and training Palestinians for military operations against Israel.

In 1959, he co-founded the Fatah — a group that would later gain control of the Palestine Liberation Organization. He was named Fatah's leader in 1968, although he had actually served in that role since 1964.

Throughout the 1970s, as part of its professed intention to eliminate the State of Israel, Fatah — by then the PLO's foremost faction — allegedly sponsored or launched scores of terrorists attacks against targets in Israel and outside it, among them the massacre of the Israeli Olympic team in Munich, Germany in 1972.
By the 1980s, Arafat had established a virtual PLO mini-state in Lebanon, the official government of which was unable to maintain its sovereignty over its territory. But it was not long before factional fighting within the PLO cut into Arafat's control over the organization. Taking advantage of Arafat's weakness, Israel — as a byproduct of its invasion of Lebanon — forced Arafat to flee to Tunis, Tunisia in 1983, where he relocated the PLO.

He 's a terrorist.

[Maximus]

Whats Fatah you ask?

In the 1960s and the 1970s, Fatah offered training to a wide range of European, Middle Eastern, Asian, and African terrorist and insurgent groups. Carried out numerous acts of international terrorism in western Europe and the Middle East in the early-tomiddle 1970s.

I made my point.

[IrishHand]

I never said he wasn't. I consider both sides of that particular conflict culpable of terrorism. I just don't like the hypocrisy of supporting one side against the other. "US & Israel hard at work." I realize (or at least hope) that comment was made in jest, but it's still in poor taste. A man who was fighting a noble cause sometimes using ignoble means died. I find it distasteful to say the least to celebrate any man's death.

By the way, citing the "Zionist Organization of America" is hardly the way to make a rational, defensible argument. It's like citing Al-Jazeera while arguing against the US invasion of Iraq.

[Maximus]

The "US & Israel hard at work" comment was made becuase there has been some talk that he was actually poisoned. They still do not know why he died (or what actually caused him to get ill).

Just as FOX News reported, even the palestinians are saying they are worse off now when compared to the pre-Arafat era.

The Zionist Organization post was to make a point. That point being that even organizations such as this knew what he was.

[Tim Plum]

The "US & Israel hard at work" comment was made becuase there has been some talk that he was actually poisoned. They still do not know why he died (or what actually caused him to get ill).

Just as FOX News reported, even the palestinians are saying they are worse off now when compared to the pre-Arafat era.

The Zionist Organization post was to make a point. That point being that even organizations such as this knew what he was.

As Fox News reported oh come on Max take off the neo-conservative religious right blinders of Fox News and see Arafat as a man that used terrorism as a means to an end. That being a homeland for 3 million + displaced peoples. The UN came in in the post WW2 hysteria and gave the Jews a homeland (No problem there, they like everyone else should have a homeland) the problem is the UN displaced the Palestinians without a home of there own.
The means that Arafat and the others used and still use are the same the US used to gain independence (terrorism). As Arafat aged he mellowed and used negotiation to give his people a homeland.

[jdettbarn]

I never said he wasn't. I consider both sides of that particular conflict culpable of terrorism. I just don't like the hypocrisy of supporting one side against the other.

My sentiments exactly. There are plenty of valid examples of both sides using terrorism for their own benefit. Neither side is innocent.

[Rene777]

Whose side we are on seems to be directly related to whose ethnic group is needed to get elected in my mind. Morality IMO is a convient word used to justify whatever foreign policy decisions is made by us to advance our economic interests in the world. No one is innocent in the Middle East-no one. :(

[IrishHand]

Morality IMO is a convient word used to justify whatever foreign policy decisions is made by us to advance our economic interests in the world.

That pretty much covers it.

[Tim Plum]

No one is innocent in the Middle East-no one. :(

The children are, all behavior and hatred is learned.

[Rene777]

Maybe.

[Maximus]

Whoa! I didnt realize there were so many Arafat supporters here. :p

The guy needed to die and I will stand by that opinion. He killed alot of his own people.

Oh and by the way, it was reported today that his financial backing wasn't as bad as he said it was....... $700,000,000 is far from being poor. Why wasn't this money used to help the palestinians? ... Oh, I forgot, he used it to spend mony on the 50,000 tons of ammo and weapons every year to kill innocent people.

Arafat was a terrorist and would still be one if he was alive.

I don't really show any mercy to those types of people. He needed to be dead, now he is & more of them need to go as well including the whole Syrian & Lebanese government.

No, I am not a jew. I am an American born from immediate Europeon decent. I do, however, feel for the jews. I am glad they are our allies.

[Maximus]

As Fox News reported oh come on Max take off the neo-conservative religious right blinders of Fox News and see Arafat as a man that used terrorism as a means to an end. That being a homeland for 3 million + displaced peoples. The UN came in in the post WW2 hysteria and gave the Jews a homeland (No problem there, they like everyone else should have a homeland) the problem is the UN displaced the Palestinians without a home of there own.
The means that Arafat and the others used and still use are the same the US used to gain independence (terrorism). As Arafat aged he mellowed and used negotiation to give his people a homeland.


Arafat mellowed! (?)

Hey bud, watch the news more often . Read the paper more often. Wasn't it just over 1 and half years ago where Israel intercepted 50,000 tons of ammo and weapons coming in from Lebanon to Arafat for use against the killing of innocence in Israel. Yes, I think so.

[Rene777]

"more of them need to go as well including the whole Syrian & Lebanese government. "

Perhaps the Sharon govt. also needs to be replaced with one less fascinated with war and destruction.

[Tim Plum]

Ah the hatred rage of people......And yes negotiations are mellowing....Remember death of anyone is not good...BTW- Thought about who takes over? Hamas?

[Druez]

Does anyone remember how Israel took over these regions. Wasn't Israel attacked? Didn't they defeat those who attacked them? Spoils of war. Next time, don't attack Israel.

[Druez]

1967 Six-Day War


Hopes for another decade of relative tranquillity were dashed with the escalation of Arab terrorist raids across the Egyptian and Jordanian borders, persistent Syrian artillery bombardment of agricultural settlements in northern Galilee and massive military build-ups by the neighboring Arab states. When Egypt again moved large numbers of troops into the Sinai desert (May 1967), ordered the UN peacekeeping forces (deployed since 1957) out of the area, reimposed the blockade of the Straits of Tiran and entered into a military alliance with Jordan, Israel found itself faced by hostile Arab armies on all fronts. As Egypt had violated the arrangements agreed upon following the 1956 Sinai Campaign, Israel invoked its inherent right of self-defense, launching a preemptive strike (5 June 1967) against Egypt in the south, followed by a counterattack against Jordan in the east and the routing of Syrian forces entrenched on the Golan Heights in the north.

In case you guys need a refresher.

At the end of six days of fighting, previous cease-fire lines were replaced by new ones, with Judea, Samaria, Gaza, the Sinai peninsula and the Golan Heights under Israel's control. As a result, the northern villages were freed from 19 years of recurrent Syrian shelling; the passage of Israeli and Israel-bound shipping through the Straits of Tiran was ensured; and Jerusalem, which had been divided under Israeli and Jordanian rule since 1949, was reunified under Israel's authority.

[jdettbarn]

It’s not about supporting anyone, really. The fact is both sides use terrorism in an attempt to reach a goal. Sharon is as much of a terrorist as Arafat and he has war crimes charges to prove it.

Terrorism begets terrorism. Nothing is going to change that until both sides make a real effort to use different tactics. Just saying you’re not a terrorist wont work when you’re demolishing homes through a ruthless occupation or blowing up cafes/buses/etc. and killing innocent people.

[Druez]

Israel defends it self. If you look at the history of Israel you will see they were attacked in every war, period.

Sharon isn't the nicest guy, but he needs to protect his people. I bet you if the PLO stopped bombing Israel, they would leave the Palastinian people alone.

[IrishHand]

Arafat mellowed! (?)

Hey bud, watch the news more often . Read the paper more often. Wasn't it just over 1 and half years ago where Israel intercepted 50,000 tons of ammo and weapons coming in from Lebanon to Arafat for use against the killing of innocence in Israel. Yes, I think so.

Are you a person or a vehicle for stock-and-trade propaganda? The weapons were "for use against the killing of innocence in Isreal"? I hope that was a simple misspelling and that you were looking for "innocents". Either way, it's always disheartening to me when someone is so blind in their promotion of one side against the other.

Far, far more "innocent' Palestinians have been killed in the past 20 years than Israelis. It's not even close.

[IrishHand]

Israel defends it self. If you look at the history of Israel you will see they were attacked in every war, period.

Sharon isn't the nicest guy, but he needs to protect his people. I bet you if the PLO stopped bombing Israel, they would leave the Palastinian people alone.

That's patently ridiculous and contradicts countless actions taken by Sharon during his tenure. He spends his time pushing the borders of Israel in one direction while the PLO tries to reverse the trend.

As for looking at it historically, prior to 1945 who owned the land currently known as Israel - and who were the bulk of it's occupants? I'll give clues to both: the first is a major colonial European power while the second is the ethnic group that's been displaced and slaughtered for the past...oh...60 plus years. Israel was a manufactured nation. It was manufactured to provide Jews with a homeland. That's totally fine. But it's naive to think that you can simply shoo the prior residents aside and assume they'll accept that. The short-sightedness which existed in the post-WWII era sadly continues today, as evidenced by your above posts.

Both sides are fighting for something that, really, belongs to neither - at least historically. As noted above, until each embraces their neighbor (not likely to happen anytime soon, admittedly), each will likely to continue to rely on terrorism to achieve its means. The only difference is that one side is a heck of a lot more powerful than the other, and has allies which are a heck of a lot more powerful.

[jdettbarn]

But I’m sure if you asked the Palestinians, they’d say they were defending themselves as well. It’s all in the eye of the beholder.

I’m not saying either side is right, in fact they’re both wrong. These tactics don’t work and haven’t worked over the 40+ years of this conflict. Innocent people are dying on both sides and there's no excuse anymore.

Edit: This is in response to Druez's post. Irish posted *twice* before I could get mine out. :eek:

[Maximus]

Are you a person or a vehicle for stock-and-trade propaganda? The weapons were "for use against the killing of innocence in Isreal"? I hope that was a simple misspelling and that you were looking for "innocents". Either way, it's always disheartening to me when someone is so blind in their promotion of one side against the other.

Far, far more "innocent' Palestinians have been killed in the past 20 years than Israelis. It's not even close.


No IrishHand, there was no misspelling of the word innocence.
http://www.freesearch.co.uk/dictionary/innocents

If you really wanted to make fun of my mishaps perhaps you should have caught the misspelling of Israel. :rolleyes:


As far as your death toll amount concerning the Palestinians, show me stats, a link and then I will just start to talk about that. You bring up the last twently or so years. Go back just a bit further and lets recall WWII. Dont give me the "last 20 year" deal. I won't but that.

[Maximus]

No matter how you look at it, Arafat was a terrorist. Thats just a fact. Israel has said since the year 1999 that once Arafat is gone there will be peace in the Middle East. They tried to negotiate peace with Arafat in the year 2000. They (Israel) were willing to give up 97% of the land they (Israel took *AFTER* they were attacked during the six day war) but Arafat said "No". He wanted more. Israel wouldn't budge and that left his people (Arafats people) in a bind. The Palestinians are worse off now then they were w/o him. That's also a fact. They are a poor people (financially) while he sat back and made the seven hundred million that was supposed to be going to the development of the Palestinians. Instead this money was being used to finance the Hamas, Hizballah, The Palestine Islamic Jihad , Palestine Liberation Front , Fatah , and so on and so on and so on.......These are facts. You can't change them. Your argument is invalid.


Arafat was a terrorist. Now get over it.

[Rene777]

Ok Maxi Arafat was a terrorist. Now will you agree that the Sharon govt. is in fact supporting state sponosred terrorism? Which is also a fact.

[Maximus]

Ok Maxi Arafat was a terrorist. Now will you agree that the Sharon govt. is in fact supporting state sponosred terrorism? Which is also a fact.


Not after you just called me Maxi......

[Druez]

Ok Maxi Arafat was a terrorist. Now will you agree that the Sharon govt. is in fact supporting state sponosred terrorism? Which is also a fact.

They are reacting to aggresive attacks by the PLO. If the PLO decides to hide or surrond themselves with innocents, that isn't Israel's problem.

[Druez]

That's patently ridiculous and contradicts countless actions taken by Sharon during his tenure. He spends his time pushing the borders of Israel in one direction while the PLO tries to reverse the trend.

As for looking at it historically, prior to 1945 who owned the land currently known as Israel - and who were the bulk of it's occupants? I'll give clues to both: the first is a major colonial European power while the second is the ethnic group that's been displaced and slaughtered for the past...oh...60 plus years. Israel was a manufactured nation. It was manufactured to provide Jews with a homeland. That's totally fine. But it's naive to think that you can simply shoo the prior residents aside and assume they'll accept that. The short-sightedness which existed in the post-WWII era sadly continues today, as evidenced by your above posts.

Both sides are fighting for something that, really, belongs to neither - at least historically. As noted above, until each embraces their neighbor (not likely to happen anytime soon, admittedly), each will likely to continue to rely on terrorism to achieve its means. The only difference is that one side is a heck of a lot more powerful than the other, and has allies which are a heck of a lot more powerful.

Actually the area was historically home to the Jew's was it not? Aren't the Jews and Palastians from the same background? I forget all the history, but they split from each other didn't they a long time ago?

[Druez]

are any of us truely innocent?

[Rene777]

Druez one of the beauties of arguing about this issue is the endless circle that keeps going on. Sharon should either invade Palestine or withdraw. Continually killing Hamas leaders simply starts another cycle of violence. Israel is in control and has the military power to enforce their will on the Palestinians. If they wanted peace they would have it one way or another. It continues to amaze me when the "victims" on the right in Israel have all the power they somehow are still victimized by those with rocks.

[Maximus]

Rene777, Im still awaiting an apology for the "Maxi" comment. :(

Edit:

Arafat is still a terrorist.

[Druez]

Druez one of the beauties of arguing about this issue is the endless circle that keeps going on. Sharon should either invade Palestine or withdraw. Continually killing Hamas leaders simply starts another cycle of violence. Israel is in control and has the military power to enforce their will on the Palestinians. If they wanted peace they would have it one way or another. It continues to amaze me when the "victims" on the right in Israel have all the power they somehow are still victimized by those with rocks.

It's not the rocks, if it was just rocks then who cares. It's the bombs that go off in shopping malls or pizza joints.

[IrishHand]

Actually the area was historically home to the Jew's was it not?
No.

Aren't the Jews and Palastians from the same background?[/.quote]
They're both humans, yes.

[quote] I forget all the history, but they split from each other didn't they a long time ago?
If you're deeply religious, right about the time of Isaac and Ismael. Other than that, not that I'm aware of.

[IrishHand]

Arafat is still a terrorist.

You have concerns about a dead guy?

How about "was", which makes it irrelevant.

[Maximus]

You have concerns about a dead guy?

How about "was", which makes it irrelevant.


Well, I posted "was" a few posts ago. Sorry, I'm not perfect.


Anyways, Its now 5:55am CT and on the news they are showing that Arafats body is returning to Palestine. Guess who is there as major supporters holding guns and light armor, ready "to shed blood on the land in the holy city of Jerusalem"? ...... Hamas! Oh, boy, who would've thought.

[Maximus]

Are you a person or a vehicle for stock-and-trade propaganda?


I just wanted to point out that I get the same info from the same "news" sources that you do. I hear the same stories, read the same papers, ......

we are both people & vehicles.

[IrishHand]

I just wanted to point out that I get the same info from the same "news" sources that you do. I hear the same stories, read the same papers, ......

I find that highly doubtful. I spend just as much time reading European and Canadian newspapers as I do American ones.

Naturally, being a relatively intelligent person with the moderate ability to discern gross bias in reporting, I eschew FoxNews.

we are both people & vehicles.
Of course we're both people, and of course we're both vehicles. My point was that some people simply regurgitate whatever line they're fed. Me, I make a point of being my own vehicle. I make an effort to learn about and understand things before I make grandiose declarations about them.

9/11 had a profound impact on you? How? Me, I left a career as a lawyer to join our armed forces. I took a 67% pay cut and signed what amounts to a 10-year committment to defend this country. I don't sit on the sidelines naively believing everything the government tells me while embracing the needless slaughter of Iraqis and my fellow servicemen.

[Druez]

I find that highly doubtful. I spend just as much time reading European and Canadian newspapers as I do American ones.

Naturally, being a relatively intelligent person with the moderate ability to discern gross bias in reporting, I eschew FoxNews.


Of course we're both people, and of course we're both vehicles. My point was that some people simply regurgitate whatever line they're fed. Me, I make a point of being my own vehicle. I make an effort to learn about and understand things before I make grandiose declarations about them.

9/11 had a profound impact on you? How? Me, I left a career as a lawyer to join our armed forces. I took a 67% pay cut and signed what amounts to a 10-year committment to defend this country. I don't sit on the sidelines naively believing everything the government tells me while embracing the needless slaughter of Iraqis and my fellow servicemen.

So did John Kerry. You going to run for office?

[IrishHand]

Another wonderful example of no fact to support the fiction. Kerry didn't become an attorney until after he'd served in Vietnam - totally different time, place and situation. He did the normal route...college, military, law school, politics. (Actually, politics for him started earlier than that - but he wasn't elected until after he'd joined the bar.)

Oh...and no, no interest in politics personally.

[Maximus]

I find that highly doubtful. I spend just as much time reading European and Canadian newspapers as I do American ones.

Naturally, being a relatively intelligent person with the moderate ability to discern gross bias in reporting, I eschew FoxNews.


Of course we're both people, and of course we're both vehicles. My point was that some people simply regurgitate whatever line they're fed. Me, I make a point of being my own vehicle. I make an effort to learn about and understand things before I make grandiose declarations about them.

9/11 had a profound impact on you? How? Me, I left a career as a lawyer to join our armed forces. I took a 67% pay cut and signed what amounts to a 10-year committment to defend this country. I don't sit on the sidelines naively believing everything the government tells me while embracing the needless slaughter of Iraqis and my fellow servicemen.

I find that highly doubtful. I spend just as much time reading European and Canadian newspapers as I do American ones.

Your doubt once again proves you wrong. yYou have no idea. I am highly involved with overseas news reports. I have all (except for two brothers) of my family living in either the UK, France, or Serbia.

9/11 had a profound impact on you? How
Thats none of your business. Sorry.


I make an effort to learn about and understand things before I make grandiose declarations about them.

...and I don't!?! Don't sit there at your PC telling me that you know me by means of this thread. I may not have been a lawer as you claim you are/were but I'm not stupid.

[IrishHand]

9/11 had a profound impact on you? How
Thats none of your business. Sorry.
Then stop using it as a defense for an ethnocentric, nationalist view of the world.


I make an effort to learn about and understand things before I make grandiose declarations about them.
...and I don't!?! Don't sit there at your PC telling me that you know me by means of this thread. I may not have been a lawer as you claim you are/were but I'm not stupid.
No, you don't. I read the exact same things you've written from rah-rah conservatives on political forums I frequent. If I wanted conservative propaganda, I'd watch FoxNews like the rest of the sheep. :confused:

And the operative word is "are" - being a lawyer is like being a teacher. It's a profession, not a job. Even if you're doing something else, you're still a member of the profession.

I didn't claim you're stupid - I was nice and assumed you were just ill-informed. :cool:

[Maximus]

I hear you IrishHand. I respect your opinions and thoughts on such an issue. Thank you for the debate (or whatever one may call it). :)

[Druez]

Another wonderful example of no fact to support the fiction. Kerry didn't become an attorney until after he'd served in Vietnam - totally different time, place and situation. He did the normal route...college, military, law school, politics. (Actually, politics for him started earlier than that - but he wasn't elected until after he'd joined the bar.)

Oh...and no, no interest in politics personally.

My reference was more of a cheapshot that Kerry went into the military for his political career.

[Pacersfan46]

I took a 67% pay cut and signed what amounts to a 10-year committment to defend this country. I don't sit on the sidelines naively believing everything the government tells me while embracing the needless slaughter of Iraqis and my fellow servicemen.

Pilot?

My brother had to sign a 10 year agreement, and he's a pilot in the Air Force.

[IrishHand]

Seriously? 10 years is a LONG time. Did that include his training?

Technically, my commitment is for 8 years after I got my wings, but it took almost two years for that to happen and I went through the training pipeline pretty quickly. Yes, though, I'm a pilot. :)

[Druez]

Irishhand, I respect what you did. I'm all for our military brothers. But, I'm still going to argue with you :)

[IrishHand]

I would certainly hope so.

[Rene777]

"Rene777, Im still awaiting an apology for the "Maxi" comment."

Just got my desk top working again today after my recent unfortunate event. Don't know why you would be offended Maximus, but Immm sorry. :o

[Rene777]

"It's not the rocks, if it was just rocks then who cares. It's the bombs that go off in shopping malls or pizza joints."

Would that be the Palestinian or Isreali bombs? Perhaps both?

[Rene777]

"but I'm not stupid" :eek:


:D

[Maximus]

"Rene777, Im still awaiting an apology for the "Maxi" comment."

Just got my desk top working again today after my recent unfortunate event. Don't know why you would be offended Maximus, but Immm sorry. :o

LOL, I was just kidding Rene. Just havin' fun. Im not offended. :D

[Rene777]

Maximus I could have made a joke about your Maxi Pad....err your home, but I didn't. :D

[MajikMan]

I just want to know why we don't have homeless people anymore in the world, only 'displaced' people :confused: :rolleyes:
(to anyone who is a fan of the tv show Babylon 5 they will remember a scene that comments on this change in how media convays and changes the dictionary for certain things)

That annoys me, don't know about the rest of you.

...now back to the arguement concerning Israel etc.

[IrishHand]

That's ok...one of my jobs is delivering ordinance. Doesn't that make it seem like I'm a supply guy or some UPS competitor? :)

[Maximus]

Maximus I could have made a joke about your Maxi Pad....err your home, but I didn't. :D

LOL, the first time I read that I dint catch it but....I got it now. :)