My opinions so far

[damiende]

The game looks much better then the first one. Loading times are quick and thats good.

But turning alot of submission moves into impact moves is downright stupid.
In my opinion it makes the matches so much harder to win in a relative short time.

The matches I have had have all gone over the 30 minute mark. If this is the norm I am afraid that it will turn people away from the game.

More to come as I test the game some more.


Daniel

[pat666]

The game looks much better then the first one. Loading times are quick and thats good.

But turning alot of submission moves into impact moves is downright stupid.
In my opinion it makes the matches so much harder to win in a relative short time.

The matches I have had have all gone over the 30 minute mark. If this is the norm I am afraid that it will turn people away from the game.

More to come as I test the game some more.


Daniel

I think the matches are made to be hard.... and I like it this way cause it give us challenge... and we wont win everytime so thats good:D

[MrCanada]

the one thing that pisses me off about the game more then anything else is I do win everymatch, and it takes 30 minutes to do it. And for the most part I dominate the matches and simply cant get pins until the guy is next-to-dead. Maybe my problem is I'm playing as Human Arsenal in DAVE, MAW, and PGHW and the guys there are all bad or something.

[Ransik]

The only thing that's really annoyed me so far is I'll dominate a match and be about 40% ahead in energy and for 10 minutes all I'll do is try to block moves as the computer just plain whups my ass to the ground.

That and I've played the Blackjack over a hundred times and only won 4. Lil too hard to win.

[Adam Ryland]

But turning alot of submission moves into impact moves is downright stupid.


Would you mind explaining that? Because I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

[Adam Ryland]

the one thing that pisses me off about the game more then anything else is I do win everymatch, and it takes 30 minutes to do it. And for the most part I dominate the matches and simply cant get pins until the guy is next-to-dead. Maybe my problem is I'm playing as Human Arsenal in DAVE, MAW, and PGHW and the guys there are all bad or something.

You are playing as one of the best characters in the game, if you want a challenge try it with someone a bit worse.

I'd also suggest reading the help file on Success Rates if you don't understand why you're not getting pins.

[eayragt]

That and I've played the Blackjack over a hundred times and only won 4. Lil too hard to win.

That's what I found, until I actually started powerbombing and sunset flipping. Danny Patterson went to just four events and has picked up a friendship with Rip Chord and Alex Braun.

[Thomnipotent]

Adam, I think he means to say that not all submission moves call the check to see if the opponent submits.

[Adam Ryland]

That's what I thought too, but he said I'd "turned them" - they were like that in WreSpi1 too.

If that is what he meant, for anyone else who doesn't understand, submission moves aren't checked if they have 0% success rate as they are classified as rest-holds (e.g. a referee wouldn't bother checking a wrestler who is in a side headlock as clearly he isn't going to tap out). This is covered in the help files.

[j20!]

That's what I found, until I actually started powerbombing and sunset flipping. Danny Patterson went to just four events and has picked up a friendship with Rip Chord and Alex Braun.
What does powerbpmb do? i can never get that one highlighted

[Adam Ryland]

See the help file.

[damiende]

A rest hold is a rest hold. But not having the Boston Crab and Full Nelson as a submission move is kinda annoying. I think that those kinda moves should be a submission move. But that the chances of making someone submit would increase as the match progresses. And maybe how much you have punished the various parts of the body.



Daniel

[Adam Ryland]

A rest hold is a rest hold. But not having the Boston Crab and Full Nelson as a submission move is kinda annoying. I think that those kinda moves should be a submission move. But that the chances of making someone submit would increase as the match progresses. And maybe how much you have punished the various parts of the body.

They are submission moves, but as they have no chance of getting the victory the referee does not check them. That is simply for gaming purposes - if the referee checks every submission hold then any match involving a technician becomes virtually unplayable, as every time you apply a wear down hold you have to go through the submission check. If you disagree with this you can simply use the editor to change the success rate and level of the move.

Incidentally, what you said contradicts your other statement of "In my opinion it makes the matches so much harder to win in a relative short time" - if the referee did check them for every submission then matches would take far longer.

[damiende]

They are submission moves, but as they have no chance of getting the victory the referee does not check them. That is simply for gaming purposes - if the referee checks every submission hold then any match involving a technician becomes virtually unplayable, as every time you apply a wear down hold you have to go through the submission check. If you disagree with this you can simply use the editor to change the success rate and level of the move.

Incidentally, what you said contradicts your other statement of "In my opinion it makes the matches so much harder to win in a relative short time" - if the referee did check them for every submission then matches would take far longer.

But a submission move should be a possible way of winning a match. And by that I mean every submission move.


Daniel

[D. Boon's Ghost]

But a submission move should be a possible way of winning a match. And by that I mean every submission move.

An Arm Wringer? An Arm Bar? A Front Facelock? That's a tad too much, in my opinion.
As Adam suggested, use the editor if you wish every wear down move to feature a submission check. Then again, your matches will also be another ten minutes longer.

[damiende]

Maybe not every single one. But bearhug full Nelson Boston Crab etc.



Daniel

[Adam Ryland]

And by that I mean every submission move.

One post later...

Maybe not every single one.

At this rate I think we're about another two posts from getting you to completely reverse your opinion :D

As I've said, if you disagree and want the Bear Hug to start winning matches - something that has happened maybe once in the past two decades? - then that's what the editor is provided for, it'll take you a couple of minutes to do the moves you want and you're done. Personally I think it's stupid, and have given my reasons why, but that's why the editor is there in the first place, for people who want things run a little differently!

But that the chances of making someone submit would increase as the match progresses. And maybe how much you have punished the various parts of the body.

And to answer a point you made earlier, both of those already happen.

[Diesel]

Ill tell ya one thing i hate about it is the friendship with card game thing.


i really dislike that maybe if you coudl do both jsut talk to them and also pklay card game some ome other signifigance other then friendship woulda been better.

[Beeker]

Maybe not every single one. But bearhug full Nelson Boston Crab etc.



Do you really need to sign every post?

And if you want to pick submissions, may I ask why you selected bearhug, boston crab and full nelson?

The bearhug last finished someone off when Brock Lesnar locked one on Hulk Hogan then smeared the blood across his chest. But that was more for the visual impact than being a legitimate submission.

The boston crab hasn't been credible since the days of Rick Martel in the AWA. Yes, Jericho uses (used) an elevated boston crab (which depending on his motivation varied wildly from savage to sloppy looking) but I think that's a seperate hold in the game. (I've only played a few games so far.)

And the full nelson hasn't been a viable finisher since the epic Billy Jack Haynes/Hercules match at Wrestlemania III. And I'm well aware that Chris Masters has attempted to make the Maserlock a viable finisher, but that just hasn't worked in my opinion.

***

And some of the more legitimate submissions DO have high success rates. Of course, damaging the opponent enough to lock it on is part of the game.

***

Furthermore, if someone wanted a rear chinlock could have the ease remain the same and be a low hold value yet have a 100% success rate (or 99.9% if 100% isn't an option - again, haven't tweaked with the moves yet) and if you want to win a thousand 20 second squashes, go ahead. I'll continue to struggle and enjoy the intense war between Jonny Bloodstone and BLZ Bubb where I eaked out a victory after Bubb no-sold most of my first 15 minutes of moves.

[eayragt]

What does powerbomb do? i can never get that one highlighted

If it's 1-1 it resets it back to 0-0, which you may as well do, as you aint gonna get the frelationship any other way.

[Hotrod]

You can edit any move the way you want to, so just do it!

[damiende]

The reason i picked those moves where because they were the first that came to mind.

Submission moves should be proper submission moves. Especially since these fights are not worked matches but "real" matches.


And yes I do have to sign every post I make.


Daniel

[Sartagis]

The reason i picked those moves where because they were the first that came to mind.

Submission moves should be proper submission moves. Especially since these fights are not worked matches but "real" matches.


And yes I do have to sign every post I make.


Daniel

I think a note to make here is that while it is a kayfabe/legit take on wrestling it's still wrestling, those moves (and all the ones with a low success rate) should be low, anyone that could make someone submit with that move would specilize in that move. With that being the case they would have a special version of it in game. Use Martel for example, most people put on a Crab Hold and it's not tooooo lethal, but have Martel slap one on and it becomes a much stronger and a match finisher so in game Martel wouldn't have the regular Crab Hold instead he'd have a duplicate (Usually with a gimmick name) on the move that was higher success rate and more Damage because he specializes in it. Or lets say Bret Hart, Sting or Riki Choshu they would have their own versions of the Scorpian Death Lock in the database that was a bit stronger.

[cainekass]

My 2 cents on the whole ref checking every submission hold.....

In my years on the indies, and watching wrestling most of my life (30 years now) that the refs actually do check every single hold to check in see if there is a chance of a submission. While it might drag in a gaming aspect, and I can see the point in the arugement about not including that in the game...in reality every hold should be checked even if there isn't a snowball's chance in hell of it actually leading to a victory. The 3 arm fall check isn't always neccessary. A lot of times refs will check to make sure the hold is not an illegal chokehold and ask the person in the hold if they want to give. The person response with their answer and the ref continues to watch and check the hold until it is broken, reversed/countered or a submission actually happens.

So both sides are right in some aspects.

[Vladamire Dracos]

Couldn't have said it better, Sartagis.

[Cathcart Chiswick]

And there is a bear hug with a success rate -- Marat Khoklov has one. If you want to make a character who uses a bear hug as a finisher, make one. The fact remains, none of the non-player characters in the game except Khoklov (as far as I know -- there might be another trademark I missed) use the bear hug to finish matches.

Same thing with Rhino Umaga's Boston crab, etc. (And by "etc.", I mean "I couldn't find a wrestler in the database whose trademark move was a full nelson, and that's just as well, really".)

[Adam Ryland]

(And by "etc.", I mean "I couldn't find a wrestler in the database whose trademark move was a full nelson, and that's just as well, really".)

Puerto Rican Power and T-Rex.

The previous posts are correct, creating trademark moves for submissions is the sensible approach.

[masterofnone]

The bearhug last finished someone off when Brock Lesnar locked one on Hulk Hogan then smeared the blood across his chest. But that was more for the visual impact than being a legitimate submission.

The boston crab hasn't been credible since the days of Rick Martel in the AWA. Yes, Jericho uses (used) an elevated boston crab (which depending on his motivation varied wildly from savage to sloppy looking) but I think that's a seperate hold in the game. (I've only played a few games so far.)

And the full nelson hasn't been a viable finisher since the epic Billy Jack Haynes/Hercules match at Wrestlemania III. And I'm well aware that Chris Masters has attempted to make the Maserlock a viable finisher, but that just hasn't worked in my opinion.

But they don't use the "Bear Hug", "Boston Crab" and "Full Nelson" - those are the "Brock Lock '02", "Walls of Jericho" and "Masterlock".

[Beeker]

But they don't use the "Bear Hug", "Boston Crab" and "Full Nelson" - those are the "Brock Lock '02", "Walls of Jericho" and "Masterlock".

The Brock Lock 02 is actually the Stretch Muffler. I don't think they named the Bearhug he used. Maybe the Bear Brock Hug or something equally silly.

But that was the point I was trying to make was that making it a Signature Move or Trademarked Move means those moves damiende suggested as being 'submissions' are just that. I just didn't explicitly state that, which I suppose I should have.

Going back to cainekiss' opinion on the ref checking each and ever (rest) submission hold. Sartagis answered this before you asked it. Due to it being "legitimate wrestling" it is not shoot fighting. And I've seen/watched my fair share of indy stuff; the ref 'lifting the arm three times' usually to allow a babyface rally or to draw the crowd into the match. Occasionally there is the Main Event Sleeper (see Triple H a few years back... I think Jeff Hardy and Spike Dudley went out to it.)

Due to WS II being a hybrid of wrestling and shoot fighting, I think a bit of creative discretion by Adam means that you can imply the ref is checking each hold, even if the game doesn't explicitly tell the player so.

In fact, I think we're both seeing the same point here.
An enjoyable (and customizable) wrestling/fighting simulator game.

[masterofnone]

I think both the bear hug (02) and the Stretch Muffler (03-04) were called the Brock Lock when Lesnar used them, which is why I included the year to differentiate :D

But my point remains: They were signature holds of the wrestlers, not just some regular guy slapping one on.

[The Humanoid Typhoon]

It was just called a Bear Hug. I have the match.