Loyalty to TPF'ers

[PFLCommissioner]

I will piggyback on what some of the others have said.

I have run the PFL for 8 seasons. Some like my style, others don't. I expect a lot in terms of participation and have removed people that I didn't think cut it (5 of the 6 former PFL'ers in nflsim were removed for lack of exporting, etc). Tough, yes, but as I saw one of the originals say on his site, we actually have 19 out of 32 spots filled with people who have been in the league for at least 7 seasons and over 2 calendar years and there are actually 4 who have never missed an export. Until this past season, we had turnover of 1-2 owners a year only.

These are the type of people who are loyal to a game, as well as the creator. These are the people who are posting on our site about trying to do something with the new game.

Although, unlike another league, we don't self describe ourself as "the best TPF website on the net", we actually have two sites in one at onlinefootballleagues.com -- both TPF, as well as Bowl Bound. Both leagues are flourishing. Both games created by Arlie. Despite TPF dying out some time ago, we are less than a month away from the 3 calendar year anniversary the league was born. We have owner's meetings, everyone gets a say, and people are happy. Through the tough times, people stuck with the game from our league when others died.

We would love to keep what we started going.

I have heard talk of different engines running the game and that making it difficult for any transfer. On the other hand, the basic player rating model, etc., is very similar between TPF and Bowl Bound. From my understanding, as far as legalities, there shouldn't be an issue with a defunct company, particularly one that is no longer selling a product. As was said in another area, it is not like MN BOB was getting sued by the folks at .400 for creating his drafting engine. Certainly BBCF had a fair number of similarities to TPF.

In my opinion, TPF was the best football simulation--better than FOF--created. We are all looking forward to the newest one... but also know many of these loyal people have built up teams, traded picks for the future, or might be just about to see some things happen after patiently waiting for many seasons... it seems unfair to them to ask them to quit and start over ... and, as we have spent significant time and effort keeping a TPF league alive-- with state of the league speeches, records from each individual year, career coaching statistics, etc... it would be nice if a league loyal to this game you created, Arlie, could stay afloat...

Is there anyway to keep a league alive here Arlie?

Thanks!

[BigDawg]

I was a PFL and NFLsim member and at the time the game was about the best out their current, of course the BEST OF ALL TIME is still FBPRO98.

I also play FOF from time to time as both TPF and FOF have their good and bad points but their should be no reason we all cant take with open arms a better game if one is produced. I say give it a chance than decied which game you like.

[BigDawg]

PFL Commish - I think you should know some in the NFLsim league think your taking pot shots at their league. And ofcourse like the group of premodonas over their they dont address you directly....

Posted on NFLsim ....

"Its not my place, I just don't understand why he would take pot shots at us. To my knowledge no one has ever said anything ill about his league(s) from NFLsim. Hell I let him use my uploader (One for TPF and the one for BBCF). Maybe he is trying to drum up some of our members to his league? I dunno... I just thought it wasn't a very classy move from a Commissioner. "

Now I was in both leagues and I found the PFL commish about as classy a guy I have ran across online , I quit both leagues at the same time because of personal issues that I posted on both boards. I got a nice "good luck" type post from the PFL commish and other in that league but with the NFLsim premadona's think the world revolves around them. They find some obscure post in the FOF forum with me talking to an old freind about my TPF experiances so they go running back to their board and post this......

"Yup, just shows that he is a ****ing liar as we all assumed. Not man enough to just say, hey sorry I suck and ****ed up my team and I am out."

Preatty classy their Kevin ... dont forget about those that live in glass houses

[moring]

PFL Commish - I think you should know some in the NFLsim league think your taking pot shots at their league. And ofcourse like the group of premodonas over their they dont address you directly....

Craig, this is a game forum for BBPF, not a venting place for some perceived feud between the PFL and NFLsim. My comments were posted on a private forum owned by me, I didn't say anything bad about their commissioner other than we are both on the same side of this battle, and why take a pot shot at us on a public forum?


Posted on NFLsim ....

"Its not my place, I just don't understand why he would take pot shots at us. To my knowledge no one has ever said anything ill about his league(s) from NFLsim. Hell I let him use my uploader (One for TPF and the one for BBCF). Maybe he is trying to drum up some of our members to his league? I dunno... I just thought it wasn't a very classy move from a Commissioner. "

Now I was in both leagues and I found the PFL commish about as classy a guy I have ran across online , I quit both leagues at the same time because of personal issues that I posted on both boards. I got a nice "good luck" type post from the PFL commish and other in that league but with the NFLsim premadona's think the world revolves around them. They find some obscure post in the FOF forum with me talking to an old freind about my TPF experiances so they go running back to their board and post this......


I am sorry that when you left hastily that we didn't give a warm and fuzzy feeling like the PFL did. Lets be honest you were looked upon as incompetent, and always whining about how the game was broke. I don't know the PFL commish, but I do know you and stick by what I said about you.


"Yup, just shows that he is a ****ing liar as we all assumed. Not man enough to just say, hey sorry I suck and ****ed up my team and I am out."

Preatty classy their Kevin ... dont forget about those that live in glass houses

So let this be the end of this "feud" and lets stop hijacking threads on this board for personal gain and trying to further fuel problems. Don't you have 3 or 4 jobs? I don't know how you have time to bounce between boards and cut and paste to try and start a problem?

[BigDawg]

Well I let it die here, you go back to the forum and continue to stroke eachother and call others names about things you know nothing about.

But ask yourself dont you find it funny the day after you call me a liar you start having problems with your warroom??? :D

[PFL_Vikings]

Hey, can't we all just get along?

Seriously. I don't think anyone intended to insult anyone's league here. I'm not sure how we got off track.

I think the most important facts are these:
1. Many of us participate in one or more multiplayer TPF leagues.
2. We are all interested in keeping our leagues running until we can get BBPF, which will allow further growth, additional leagues, etc.
3. This isn't a competition.

The point of Allen's post was to figure out how we're going to convert entire TPF leagues over to BBPF. If there won't be a method for importing directly from TPF (which Arlie sounded pretty convinced that there won't be), what other options do we have? I appreciate Kevin and Bob and we use the upload manager frequently and the war room every draft. I would like to help figure out ways to transition leagues to the new game.

[Arlie Rahn]

I appreciate all the work you guys have done with TPF. Let me see what I can do on a league by league basis. It would have to be after the game's released and if it is even possible. I will keep you guys posted and do what i can, but I can't promise things. And when I can't promise things, I like to error on the side of not raising expectations.

[PFL_Vikings]

Thanks, Arlie.

[starca]

I appreciate all the work you guys have done with TPF. Let me see what I can do on a league by league basis. It would have to be after the game's released and if it is even possible. I will keep you guys posted and do what i can, but I can't promise things. And when I can't promise things, I like to error on the side of not raising expectations.

In the famous words of Lloyd Christmas from Dumb and Dumber, "So you're saying there's a chance!"

Appreciate it Arlie.

[Mike Lowe]

I hate to see you guys arguing, makes me sad. I hope the league is going well and continues to be great. Craig, hope things are well.

Kevin, I can never log into the forums. The username you gave me a while back (alumn) I have completely forgotten. Is there a way to get an account again to see how things are going? Email me if you get this message and if you have the time.

Take care everyone. Looking forward to Arlie's new game.

[PFLCommissioner]

I appreciate all the work you guys have done with TPF. Let me see what I can do on a league by league basis. It would have to be after the game's released and if it is even possible. I will keep you guys posted and do what i can, but I can't promise things. And when I can't promise things, I like to error on the side of not raising expectations.

I, and many others, appreciate the consideration!

[PFLCommissioner]

I consider all this talk pointless. I find it humorous that it ended up on any private forum, and actually heard about it from two others. As a commissioner, I would've 1) not commented--see below, and 2) stopped it. The point was not a solitary comment, but the paragraphs that were apparently disregarded that will help both the PFL and nflsim.

First and foremost, any suggestion about "trying to steal members" is really quite comical. The fact is, there are a number of members over there who are no longer in the PFL that I released. NOTE TO NFLSIM: Of the 3 people running multiple teams that I kicked out of our league a few seasons back, two reside in your league currently.

Now, somehow missed in all of this is the fact that there was a TPF --> BBPF site initiated my this username: moring, that was essentially met with a "sorry, it won't work". Then, I made a similar post, trying to explain things a little more fully and Arlie responded with favorable consideration.

This clearly is the most important thing here. Is it even mentioned? I would think comments about using upload features would go by the wayside... considering that the possibility of both the PFL and nflsim living on without having to start over is more than an even trade! As far as “you letting me use your uploader”, I can appreciate the fact that you created a very nice utility. I wasn’t under the impression that these programs which have been floating around for awhile we being utilized with permission. The many leagues that were out there used the drafting program that MN BOB created, many BBCF leagues use the upload utility.

Any bowl bound or TPF member appreciates such a useful utility and I thank you for it. Since, in fact, in expressing my views, we did see a response which was much more positive than the original “sorry, you are out of luck” in that TPF--> BBCF post, I will await your thanks to me on that issue.

As for "potshots", sorry if their was any offense taken, but clearly what has transpired on "private forums" because of these, really, very innocuous comments, I think shows pretty poorly...much worse than my comments that apparently "were not a classy move by a Commissioner".

I had occasion the other day, after having read the original TPF BBCF thread, to look at the nflsim site. While I don’t think I intended any harm from my comments, I must say I thought it funny to read that the nflsim’s website was the self-proclaimed “best TPF site on the world wide web period”. I had heard that was up there previously, I think there would be a few who would take issue on that. So, in making my post, I thought I would comment on that. It was tongue-in-cheek, nothing more. I don’t think it would qualify as anything more than a mild parry, certainly not a feud or major blow. In fact, I personally have no quarrel with nflsim. I would hope that any nflsim management person would have pride in his league, as I and my management team have in the PFL.

The reason, however, that I have no quarrel, is because I let a few previous experiences with them roll off my back...experiences much worse than my "potshots"...

We just run leagues differently. At a time when many TPF leagues were dying out, members of my league who were in different leagues asked to post in the PFL forums about their leagues for members. I let them, on every occasion. There were two leagues no longer around created by PFL’ers and they asked to advertise on my site. I let them. The more the merrier I thought. It is a fun game, and I am not going to get hurt if someone plays in more than one league.

On the other hand, about 4 seasons ago--well over a year--we were coming off a season and had 5 people summarily removed for ownership issues...as referenced above...This was a first for us, as we had never had more than 1-2 openings a season. I posted in our forums to other members that I was seeking people they thought might be worth having. We had never really advertised on the old .400 site, we filled by word of mouth and referral only. That's how we've always done it, and probably the reason why we have 19 out of 32 teams with at least 6 seasons and two calendar years of experience and several originals.

After getting the email addresses of referrals from current members of the PFL who were also in various leagues, I made some solicitations. My request was that my guys let these people know that they were referred to me and that an email would be coming. We rapidly filled and got ourselves a nice wait list. However, subsequent to that, one league, nfl sim, thought it would be nice to send me an explitive-filled email about “trying to steal guys and sending unsolicited emails”. I was told that I needed to "contact the comissioner" before talking to anyone in the league. Now, I can’t even say it was username:moring, because I don’t know who it was anymore who emailed me from nflsim. The email is long since gone...just that it was someone who was “in management”. It may have been the old commissioner, who posted here Lowe (aka Adamle), or the new one, or Buchanan, the old NFC Pres. I honestly don't recall.

Now, did I post it in my forums? Did I smear nflsim? Did I give an opportunity for former nfl simmer's in my league to post about that league as has been done on the nflsim forums? Did I even let it bother me? No, No, No, and no. I consider it silly that someone would think I would try to “steal” their league members. It actually is rather arrogant. I’ll stand on the success of the PFL, as evidenced by the longevity of the members, and yes by the fact that we do have several people from many different leagues including 4 different past or current TPF and 2 current BBCF commissioners, in our league.

So, for those who took offense, I apologize for really was something very minor. If username: moring didn’t consider it classy, and he is entitled to his opinion, as you posted on your forums and is now here I don’t think the email I received was very classy...I also don't think what has subsequently occurred in your forums very classy. That email seemed to suggest I was trying to steal members and now the suggestion you make from the forums is that “I am trying to drum up nflsim members”. Ridiculous.

On a final note, I would doubt many think the mini feud here between username: moring and a former nflsim member shows well either...for one, Craig Hayes took a Denver team that a current nflsim member quit after 3 years of futility and turned them into the #1 seed in the AFC the year he left. Secondly, it is not the player's responsibility to manage a team to your liking--it is management and the trade committee's responsibility to not allow them to dismantle a team if that's what nflsim management thinks happened. When Sparky Joe left Denver, I wished him well, didn't accuse him of destroying a team. He did his best. But Craig Hayes took that Denver team that hadn't made the playoffs in 7 seasons and made them a winner.

This will be my last word on this subject, as I find it quite silly. I wish the nflsim league and all of its members the best of luck.

And...thanks again to Arlie for the consideration.

[Cooleyvol]

Might I say that 99% of us here could care less about all that. When it gets down to it, the issue is a TPF to BBPF converter. That's all that most TPF'ers care about.

I'm in the NFLSim and the CFL(college league sharing its site with PFL) and even I don't care about all of this.

[Cheesehead!]

Might I say that 99% of us here could care less about all that. When it gets down to it, the issue is a TPF to BBPF converter. That's all that most TPF'ers care about.

I'm in the NFLSim and the CFL(college league sharing its site with PFL) and even I don't care about all of this.

If all you care about is a TPF to BBPF converter, than maybe you should be thanking the guy who got Arlie to consider it, rather than trying to irritate that person--as he was responding to some stupidity of your commissioner who didn't get any sort of favorable response from his request for a converter, but instead allows stuff to go on in his forums.

Dope.

[Cheesehead!]

Thanks, Al, for your post, and Arlie for taking into consideration that there are a lot of people loyal to your creations and will continue to be.

Having been in both leagues I don't think there is a comparison. I think it is pretty clear that the words "blind and oblivious" are a good description here.

Does a guy really get on his forums and whine about this kind of stuff and miss the whole point? Hey, moring, take your upload module that you are so happy about. We'll take the converter you couldn't get. Idiot.

Now, I will let you figure out when I was in your league, moring, and you can rip on me like you were ripping on the Big Dog.

[Cooleyvol]

If all you care about is a TPF to BBPF converter, than maybe you should be thanking the guy who got Arlie to consider it, rather than trying to irritate that person--as he was responding to some stupidity of your commissioner who didn't get any sort of favorable response from his request for a converter, but instead allows stuff to go on in his forums.

Dope.


Dope?

You better check again.

The issue OF THIS THREAD is a converter. I never said all I cared about what the converter. I, personally, won't lose one minute's sleep if a converter never appears, but to long time TPFers, its important.

[asaintsfan]

Thanks, Al, for your post, and Arlie for taking into consideration that there are a lot of people loyal to your creations and will continue to be.

Having been in both leagues I don't think there is a comparison. I think it is pretty clear that the words "blind and oblivious" are a good description here.

Does a guy really get on his forums and whine about this kind of stuff and miss the whole point? Hey, moring, take your upload module that you are so happy about. We'll take the converter you couldn't get. Idiot.

Now, I will let you figure out when I was in your league, moring, and you can rip on me like you were ripping on the Big Dog.




First off let me say - I am the Commish of the NFLSim and until now had no clue of the PFL and I hate to spew on message boards. I was not going to respond but feel I have to now to defend the NFLSim. Im glad your league is run so well and that you have a nice happy family there. All of these comments about members getting removed and the lack of class, and that "someone" directly let's members attack other members on the forum - are directly centered at me. YES - members are removed for inactivity - (Do I really need to defend that? If owners email me and say they have problems and can't export - all is well - but when you don't hear form owners for 4 5 6 weeks - it's time to remove them) - The banter on the boards is what makes the league - when owners can't take what they dish out (craigger) it becomes ugly. And as for our moniker "The best TPF league on the web period" SO WHAT?? Get over it. We are full at 32 members right now and I run an honest and fun league.

It is laughable that I need to come on these boards to defend our league against the allegations a former member "craigger" ( I refuse to call him "big dawd" as big dawgs don't just sit on the porch)

The PFL commish will have us to believe that craigger is a wonderful owner and that, he may be, in your league. He may have taken a team to the playoffs - so what? THe fact of the matter is that craigger IS UNDERHANDED, and UNTRUSTWORTHY and it is proven by his own statements that he purposely sabotaged major components of the NFLSim this past offseason. He even emailed me when he was still in the league asking me for the league password because he wanted to "work on a few things on his own". ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? This is the guy you are calling upstanding? For all it's worth craigger has been around a while and no doubt has been in more leagues and has run more leagues than you can shake a stick at (and he will let you know that) and I'm sure he's an honest american in your league. But he lacks integrity. This is the LAST guy I would want in my league or running my league. Without integrity - these fantasy leagues are worthless.

CHEESEHEAD - Why should we have to guess who you are? Be a man and say who you are - First off - you must not know **** because if you did - you wouldn't be hating on Cooley or Kevin as these two have done more for these games than anyone else I know and I've been associated with this game since it's inception. These gentlemen along with Mike B have taken SERIOUS time out of their lives to make things and websites so the rest of us can have an outlet and play these games. Your statements are ignorant and silly which probably explains why you aren't in a league right now.

Regardless of what happens with this new game - which I believe will be an AWESOME game, the NFLSim will continue ONE WAY OR ANOTHER. If I have to manually reconstruct the rosters, I WILL - If we get the options for CSV dumps - we have 6 owners ready to make the rosters for NFLSIm. If all else fails - we will continue this league no matter what!

So - You see - we consider ourselves the best for a reason, entering our 13th season of TPF we remain full at 32 members, and as I enter my 3rd calender year as the commish, the strength of our league is consistency and the fact that we have a core of owners that have continued with the league from day 1.

If you know me, you know I am a personable guy and of the utmost integrityu and all I want to do is run a good league and have good owners with everyone enjoying an outlet in life.

As for craigger - I never had a problem with you and most of the comments that were directed at you after you left, you brought upon yourself with some of the unbelievable stuff you said. I never felt you took any of it to heart as you never said anything to me about it. But after this latest stunt with the warroom, I gotta say I'm disappointed. Hope you do better in real life.

I apologize for the rant - but felt it was necessary and we are all after one thing anyway - a good game from Arlie and I don't think he will disappoint as Bowl Bound for me has surpassed TPF on the fun factor!

Thanks to COOLEY, MIKE B and KEVIN for their contributions to the community!

[udlb58]

Wow, could somebody please lock this thread. This board is for suggestions about the new pro game, not a place for arguments about TPF, or who has the better league, or who called who what name. This is all very juvenile and we need to get back to the issue of making positive, insightful suggestions to the build team of the new pro game.

[asaintsfan]

Wow, could somebody please lock this thread. This board is for suggestions about the new pro game, not a place for arguments about TPF, or who has the better league, or who called who what name. This is all very juvenile and we need to get back to the issue of making positive, insightful suggestions to the build team of the new pro game.

agreed - my bad

[BigDawg]

It is laughable that I need to come on these boards to defend our league against the allegations a former member "craigger" ( I refuse to call him "big dawd" as big dawgs don't just sit on the porch)

THe fact of the matter is that craigger IS UNDERHANDED, and UNTRUSTWORTHY and it is proven by his own statements that he purposely sabotaged major components of the NFLSim this past offseason. He even emailed me when he was still in the league asking me for the league password because he wanted to "work on a few things on his own". ARE YOU KIDDING ME?? This is the guy you are calling upstanding? For all it's worth craigger has been around a while and no doubt has been in more leagues and has run more leagues than you can shake a stick at (and he will let you know that) and I'm sure he's an honest american in your league. But he lacks integrity. This is the LAST guy I would want in my league or running my league. Without integrity - these fantasy leagues are worthless.


Freddy, for the most part I never had any problems or arguments with you and until the post Kevin made calling me a LIAR I didnt have many bad things to say about the league. Sure we had heated arguments with other coaches but that was all part of the fun but things changed after I left.

You have proff of nothing , I knew making the statement about your war room would piss off Kevin so thats why I said it. Truth be told I dont have access to your files , web site or war room so I have no way to do anything to them. I find it strange your gona believe what some idiot tells you than run around calling me underhanded. ?????

As for the password if you remember I had the password TWICE before , once with the original owner MIKE than again about a year ago when you and Kevin messed up the draft and I was asked by KEVIN to rerun the draft pick by pick IN THE FILES. Given the password and did your work and FIXED the draft. Was anything screwed up at that point? was anything edited? NOPE

Because I forgot it why would I think you react CRAZY when asking for it for the THIRD time?? Wanting to sim ahead 20 season to prove a point their was a problem with the game engine since I brought up the point on the board and wanted to show reasons for it. Of course I bring up a question all I got was guys saying SHUT UP if you dont like it LEAVE. Preaty frendly league huh. Or because I trade some draft picks for HOF caliber VET players I become someone that destroys the team.

Over the last 10 years lets say I played in 25 leagues , of these 25 leagues, 24 of the commish/owners would post things about me much as the PFL commish does... seems the only 1 league that wants to call me names, implement I cheat or something is the NFLsim and their group of egomaniac self important morons.

[fjvieane]

Wow, could somebody please lock this thread. This board is for suggestions about the new pro game, not a place for arguments about TPF, or who has the better league, or who called who what name. This is all very juvenile and we need to get back to the issue of making positive, insightful suggestions to the build team of the new pro game.

Geez what was this thread about again???

I am in the PFL but I hate to see private debates intrude on what is suppose to be a discussion about Arlie's up and coming game.

Let's get back on topic. :)