Alternative To Pushes

[DodgyDavid]

Now obviously there won't be Main Eventers & Midcarders in WMMA, but I think that a way of telling the user quickly that these are your top guys, these are your low level guys etc. Instead of having to check every ones popularity. So here is my idea instead of calling pushes, you can call it level and have the following.

Highest
High
Medium
Low
Lowest

In TEW you had a people complain about their push. Instead you can have people say that they think you've underestimated them.

Thoughts?

[badbeat]

Now obviously there won't be Main Eventers & Midcarders in WMMA, but I think that a way of telling the user quickly that these are your top guys, these are your low level guys etc. Instead of having to check every ones popularity. So here is my idea instead of calling pushes, you can call it level and have the following.

Highest
High
Medium
Low
Lowest

In TEW you had a people complain about their push. Instead you can have people say that they think you've underestimated them.

Thoughts?

I don't know, MMA DOES have main carders and undercarders... no reason a guy wouldnt get upset if he is constantly on the undercard, or is only on the Free TV shows in a bigger org that has televised shows... That might actually be an interesting aspect... guy is 8-0 but you still book him on an undercard because he hasnt beaten a big name or because his style is less apealing to fans, etc.

[toddthebod]

I don't know, MMA DOES have main carders and undercarders... no reason a guy wouldnt get upset if he is constantly on the undercard, or is only on the Free TV shows in a bigger org that has televised shows... That might actually be an interesting aspect... guy is 8-0 but you still book him on an undercard because he hasnt beaten a big name or because his style is less apealing to fans, etc.

**cough** Jon Fitch **cough**

[djthefunkchris]

How you promote as well as how hard you promote... I think both should be in it. Instead of Overness, maybe Promoteability?

[BlizzardVeers]

I don't think this need to be messed with at all. The way TEW ranks the fighters is fine, after all perception is reality. If you're telling the audience that someone is a Main Eventer, and having them beat the **** out of cans you call Main Eventers, they're gonna believe that he's a bad bad dude.

You have someone that you consider a piece of crap get beaten by underranked fighters, they're gonna be considered a piece of crap too.

Don't really know that a "push" has anything to do with MMA, but if you're going to have it just leave it as is. And Jobbers should be renamed to 'Cans'. :P

[thedraem41]

I'm not sure this would work, as in contract negotiations things would get difficult. You could offer them a certain number of Main Events and such and PPV appearances.
But, the push system itself wouldn't work, you could instead use it on a promotion by promotion basis.(Judging how the fans of a company judge the fighter)
And replace the push with "Established" and rank it like Popularity in TEW. So, as the more established a fighter becomes in a promotion the more this raises, and where he expects to fight on a card, PPV's he's on, and what the fans expect of him.

[asdfx3]

I'm a little confused about what we're talking about here.
Are we talking about how popular/notable a fighter is (so a fighter would be angry that he's not on the main card, or being hyped, or fighting another recognizable fighter)?
Are we talking about their general level of skill/record (like a tiered ranking system where an A-class fighter would be angry he's fighting a C-class fighter)?
Are we talking about a fighters percieved level of ability (I guess this would like what Blizzard was saying where you hype up a fighter as great and give him matches that make him look great even if he's not, creating a similar issue to the previous possibility except that it has to do with perception rather than reality)?

[djthefunkchris]

What I thought was being asked, wasn't a "Push" as much as how promotable he was... I don't know alot of MMA guys, but I will use the world of boxing, for what I mean.

Lets say you have a fighter that is really charismatic, people love him, yet isn't really a believable candidate for the championship, although his rep and his name is very well known... Like say George Foreman. You don't really think of him as being able to succeed because of his age.

Now you have another guy, that's young, eye of the tiger type... let's say a Tyson in his prime. He has been promoted as being devastating, and knocks guys out left and right. Everyone (the fans) think he's going to do the same to the champ.... However, the fans look at Foreman as just having a dream.

Well, which would get a deserving chance to get the title first? That's the kind of thing I thought was being discussed here. It matter's too, even though I'm not huge on MMA, I know that when they promote them, the BIGGER names are used, over the less known names. IT doesn't matter if the guy that opens up is the best fighter, the more established fighter is in the main event (the one everyone wants to see).

SO, in that same situation, with Tyson and Foreman... I would want to place the Tyson match as the main event, and the Foreman Match further DOWN the card.

Does that help?

[Anubis]

Lets say you have a fighter that is really charismatic, people love him, yet isn't really a believable candidate for the championship, although his rep and his name is very well known... Like say George Foreman. You don't really think of him as being able to succeed because of his age.

You are talking about if George Foreman were to try to step into the ring now, right? Because back in his prime, he was one of the best, and he is one of the best boxers of all time. Foreman is the Ric Flair of boxing. Also, it is ironic you should mention his age, since I do believe he has a record as the oldest person ever to win the World Heavyweight Championship in boxing (at age 45 IIRC).

Sorry about the tangent, I was just reading different posts, and I happen to be a huge fan of Foreman.

As for the topic, I say just leave it be and call it something other than "push". If memory serves me correctly, the "card positions" in wrestling were actually taken directly from how boxing (which I fully view MMA/NHB to be a variation of) labelled its cards. No one would argue calling George Foreman, Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali, or Evander Holyfield "main eventers", and just the same, no one would argue calling Royce Gracie, Fedor Emelianenko, Randy Coture, or Mirko Cro Cop "main eventers". (All in their primes, of course, just so we are clear.)

[Capelli King]

I would like to see my fighters ranked in some way. Either it be based on marketability, or based on current hype or interest. Even the TEW setup is fine (based on popularity).

What i mainly want to know is which fighters currently the fans want to see most. Maybe it is a combination of the above, plus possibly current record, i do not know.

It would be a little dissapointing if we just have a list of fighters without some type of ranking. It would mean you have to know all your fighters very well, which is fine, but sometimes i do not play for lets say 2 weeks and i come back and i forgot who was who and it is as if i am starting a new game.

I would like fighters to make suggestions in who they would like to fight and possibly if they want a title fight, but unlike wrestling, fighters will not usually complain, they could be a little dissapointed if you are not giving them enough opportunities even though they are winning.

So although the booking should somewhat influence their mood, i would like it to be less of an influence than in wrestling. Because in wrestling if you are booking a guy to loose his next fights to jobbers, that will influence greatly his career, in MMA the result is up to him.

[badbeat]

Like I've said in other posts, I don't know what TEW did but to me, the popularity of fighters and where they are on cards in MMA is very very similar to wrestling.

A "mid carder" aka undercarder in the UFC might leave UFC and become the Feature bout main eventer in IKON out in Hawaii for example. Or a guy in Cage Rage who is the champion might decide to go to the UFC but now he's an undercarder....

Seems like how it works in pro wrestling or at leat in the wrestling game on here that u control the wrestler and fights themselves...

Now I don't think any of this should effect the actual ability of the fighter to win, but sometimes u get a good skilled fighter that people dont like watching, like Saturdays Andre Arlovski fight vs Werdum are two very good fighters that got booed because they had a really boring fight.

[Capelli King]

Now I don't think any of this should effect the actual ability of the fighter to win, but sometimes u get a good skilled fighter that people dont like watching, like Saturdays Andre Arlovski fight vs Werdum are two very good fighters that got booed because they had a really boring fight.

This is off the subject, but i really rate Arlovski, well at least his standup is very impressive.

[toddthebod]

Styles make or break fights. Can't blame Arlovski for winning the fight and playing his game. I look forward to this aspect being in this game. Not every fight is going to be exciting.

[badbeat]

But yeah there are some fighters that have great skills and some people dont like their fights... like Matt Lindland for example... so, maybe a dominating fighter wont get as many main events if you cant sell a lot of PPV sales.

[djthefunkchris]

You are talking about if George Foreman were to try to step into the ring now, right? Because back in his prime, he was one of the best, and he is one of the best boxers of all time. Foreman is the Ric Flair of boxing. Also, it is ironic you should mention his age, since I do believe he has a record as the oldest person ever to win the World Heavyweight Championship in boxing (at age 45 IIRC).

Sorry about the tangent, I was just reading different posts, and I happen to be a huge fan of Foreman.

As for the topic, I say just leave it be and call it something other than "push". If memory serves me correctly, the "card positions" in wrestling were actually taken directly from how boxing (which I fully view MMA/NHB to be a variation of) labelled its cards. No one would argue calling George Foreman, Mike Tyson, Muhammad Ali, or Evander Holyfield "main eventers", and just the same, no one would argue calling Royce Gracie, Fedor Emelianenko, Randy Coture, or Mirko Cro Cop "main eventers". (All in their primes, of course, just so we are clear.)

I was talking about his comeback... He wanted Tyson the whole time, they wouldn't give him Tyson... ANd by the time they would have, he had to settle for someone that wasn't Tyson, to gain the championship.. He seemed to have to work three or four times harder to gain respect during his comeback, then he did in the first part of his carreer..

I also think he was a better fighter all around during his comeback, then he was when he was doing the "Rumble in the Jungle". I also think he could have beat Tyson, because I really never seen Tyson beat anyone that I thought was "all that"... and when he finally did face people I thought were good (Hollyfield, Douglas for example) enough to compete, he losses. I know most don't think Foreman could of done it, but I wanted to see that fight so bad, before someone else beat him, I wanted Foreman to get that chance.

EDIT: and When Tyson tried to make a comeback, he actually BEAT, and knocked out at least one guy I thought was better then all the people before (except who he lost to), which was Tillman, who was a Olympic Winner in boxing.

Oh well, bygones, be bygones. SOrry for the sidetrack here.

[Capelli King]

Styles make or break fights. Can't blame Arlovski for winning the fight and playing his game. I look forward to this aspect being in this game. Not every fight is going to be exciting.

I agree there

[Capelli King]

I was talking about his comeback... He wanted Tyson the whole time, they wouldn't give him Tyson... ANd by the time they would have, he had to settle for someone that wasn't Tyson, to gain the championship.. He seemed to have to work three or four times harder to gain respect during his comeback, then he did in the first part of his carreer.

Yeah we are going off the subject here, but the Foreman vs Tyson one was a fight i also wanted to see. I am a big Foreman supporter myself.

[TylerDrew]

Styles make or break fights. Can't blame Arlovski for winning the fight and playing his game. I look forward to this aspect being in this game. Not every fight is going to be exciting.

I agree this is an important aspect of MMA. someone like Evangalista "Cyborg" Santos is really a 3rd rate fighter but puts on great matches every time, where as someone like Paulo Filho is a great fighter who puts on fights many consider borring. Having to take into account this dynamic is one of the big things I feel this game should revolve around, do you get an exciting guy who will eventually lose fan support with loss after loss or a guy with great skills who may put on some snoozers? I really feel this dynamic is important to the game.

[badbeat]

right how many fights in the UFC did Ross Pointon get lol...he got like 2 or 3 fights AFTER tuf.

[y2trav]

i dont like pushes...you get moved up the card when you beat top competition. if your extremely popular, but not a very good fighter you may get work or put on tv when you dont deserve it, but no one is going to let that fighter main event.

[Capelli King]

This is one subject it would be nice to hear what Adam thinks. I think the TEW system was fine.

With the only difference that in WMMA fighters should move up the card depending on their W\L record (mainly) then the way they won the fight should play some role but probably most inportantly is who they one.

Charismatic or highly marketable fighters maybe should climb in popularity faster than dull ones when they win and when they loose they do not slump so much in popularity.

[y2trav]

i really dont like pushes at all. i dont want to be pigeon holed into where i place someone on a card. two recent examples would be matt serra(not a main eventer) and nate marquart(hasnt even fought on tv) against silva. i think fighters should have a popularity rating, and another rating(respect, legitimacy, i dunno something that says they are feared.) but i dont think the booker should have say in this. a promoter cant "make" maineventers. if you "push" someone as a maineventer and they get destryoed, you have to push them back down the card, pissing them off in this system.

[Capelli King]

Someone can be pushed as a "maineventer", but if he does not perform and bring in the results, then he cannot be considered so for very long.