Like it or not [Archive] - Grey Dog Software

Travis

08-04-2007, 10:06 PM

I'm a fan of bonds, but I do have to say that since nothing is proved, and nothing is set in stone that bonds was on steriods from day A through day B, there's no way they can take the record away from him. Although, the record does seem to have diminished in the eyes of alot of baseball fans, it's an impressive record that sets the standards for everyone. I've played baseball alot and the only homerun I've gotten was an inside the park Hr. And I have to give Bonds the credit he deserves. And from personal experience, it takes more skill to hit the ball, than to put it over the wall.

August 4th is a great day for baseball, as 2 records are added to the book, Bonds ties the alltime Home Run record, and A-Rod is the youngest person to reach 500 Home Runs at the very young age of 32. When Bonds retires, A-Rod could probably easily break the new record. He's been on a roll as of late averaging around 40 Homers a year. If he keeps up the same pace, he'll have easily beaten it by the time he's 40.

Wallbanger

08-04-2007, 10:09 PM

Since Babe Ruth hit half his home runs drunk, I'm still more impressed with him (not that he was a drunk, but that he set the record with chemical inhibition, not enhancement) :D

theoutlaw321

08-04-2007, 10:19 PM

I do feel that A-Rod, barring injury, will be the one that will one day break whatever mark that is eventually set by Bonds.

I think Griffey Jr would be close if he hadn't lost 3-4 years due to injury. One of those could have been things.

Chemically enhanced or not. Stand in a batter's box and have someone throw a 90-95 mph fastball and try and make contact. Or even harder still, a curve ball or slider that breaks 3 feet in the last 5-6 feet before it gets to the plate. I'm not an overwhelming Bonds fan, but 755 homeruns, is 755 homeruns.

ACCBiggz

08-04-2007, 10:25 PM

Since Babe Ruth hit half his home runs drunk, I'm still more impressed with him (not that he was a drunk, but that he set the record with chemical inhibition, not enhancement) :D

I never actually saw him play so I can't officially say anything too much against him. But these are my own personal feelings and are not an attack on his fans or him.

To me Babe Ruth is a figurehead in baseball, no doubt, but I personally would not put him on my roster of greatest players ever. People make a big deal out of his homeruns, his pitching, etc. etc. But baseball was WAY different back then. Mounds, ballparks, the balls, and so on. Furthermore he never got the chance to play in a league with blacks, hispanics, asains, and other races. To me personally, I feel that the media and elder statesmen have made him out to be great simply because he was the great white hope.

------------------------------
Steroids.

I'm against them, and maybe Bonds did take them. But I also don't take records as seriously as others. Cy Young's wins will never be touched because it isn't the era of pitchers pitching every other day and they don't even get the amount of decisions these days as they did 15 years ago. People used to ask baseball players about steroids years ago and you got varying reports in upwards of 40% of them using. People say he lied in the grand jury. #1, that was never supposed to be made public, #2 why couldn't he have been telling the truth? I'm not saying he did or did not, but let's put this in perspective. You are Bonds and one of your longest and best friends is now your personal trainer and he comes up to you and says, "Hey, I have this new remedy it's flaxseed oil." Are you really going to question him about it? I have a hard time believing that you would because I know I would trust my friend.

Again, I'm not saying that is what happened or not, but it is plausible at the very least. People forget that Anderson was one of his closest and most trusted friends so without question I don't see a reason to doubt that Barry might not have actually known what was going into his body and perhaps was just duped by Anderson.

But overall it's been a witch hunt for Bonds because he is close to the record. Once you get close to the milestone the media starts to put you under a microscope and begins to question how and why. I think my favorite is them putting his rookie photo beside his recent photos. Of course his body will change. He as a player has had to change with age. He has been into lifting weights and various other techniques so I'd rather see a photo from every year in progression. Granted if that picture was 2000 and his now picture was 2001 then I'd question how it can change overnight, but it hasn't changed overnight.

This is a seperate era of baseball, it's that simple. I'm not going to put an * by his name, and to me after all of his accomplishments and what Barry has done. He is probably the greatest position player ever to play the game. Definatly in the top three if nothing else.

Chemically enhanced or not. Stand in a batter's box and have someone throw a 90-95 mph fastball and try and make contact. Or even harder still, a curve ball or slider that breaks 3 feet in the last 5-6 feet before it gets to the plate. I'm not an overwhelming Bonds fan, but 755 homeruns, is 755 homeruns.
Agreed. Hitting has TONS more to do with viewing the strikezone and generating bat speed by being able to turn on the ball. Barry's strikezone judgement which allowed him to key on proper balls to hit is simply amazing and is why he has so many walks.

djthefunkchris

08-04-2007, 10:25 PM

Barry Bonds, going to break every record in baseball history. Should it count, or should it get a * by his name, to signify the use of "Steroids", of which he denies I guess.

theoutlaw321

08-04-2007, 10:47 PM

Again, Biggz, I agree. With pretty much everything you outlined.

Just a point to throw out there for all those that are on the witch hunt. If the hitters are on the stuff, you don't think that the pitchers have been?

Anyway, he's had 3 ABs so far tonight. First at bat he took a first pitch changeup to go behind 0-1. Then took two balls, then hit ball three into the left field bleachers for HR #755. In the two ABs since he's seen two strikes. One he fouled off. The other a pitchers pitch a backdoor slider that broke back over the outside corner. And been walked twice. If he sees more than one strike per ab then the pitchers in general have screwed up. His eye is that good. Last weekend against Dontrelle Willis I was really impressed with the fact that Willis went right after him. You don't see that often. Not if you want to win ballgames, anyway.

Wallbanger

08-04-2007, 11:07 PM

I never actually saw him play so I can't officially say anything too much against him. But these are my own personal feelings and are not an attack on his fans or him.

To me Babe Ruth is a figurehead in baseball, no doubt, but I personally would not put him on my roster of greatest players ever. People make a big deal out of his homeruns, his pitching, etc. etc. But baseball was WAY different back then. Mounds, ballparks, the balls, and so on. Furthermore he never got the chance to play in a league with blacks, hispanics, asains, and other races. To me personally, I feel that the media and elder statesmen have made him out to be great simply because he was the great white hope.

If the race card is going to be played, it should at least be played right. By that measure Josh Gibson is the true home run king having hit somewhere between 800 and 1000 homers in the Negro League, MLB and barnstorming tours. And Gibson, to my knowledge, was neither drunk or juiced.

Gibson (and Buck O'Neill and other Negro League greats) are at least worthy of admiration. Bonds is not.

djthefunkchris

08-04-2007, 11:13 PM

Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the witch hunt. I was the ONLY Person to bassically stick up for him in conversation around friends and family.

Like Biggz said, Steriods were around way before Bonds was.... He's not alone (if he used, or still does), not by a long shot. Who's to say half the people that have THE Records, or had them before, weren't on some form of them? I can't say, and from a historical viewpoint, it was alot worse a few year's back then it is today.... I can't recall exactly the dates, but I believe it was around the 80's it was at it's worse.

Anyways, anyone, no matter who it is, that is going to beat some legendary player's "Record" is going to get it by the press. No one want's their personal hero's de-throned. It's the way of the world.

Remianen

08-04-2007, 11:18 PM

Last weekend against Dontrelle Willis I was really impressed with the fact that Willis went right after him. You don't see that often. Not if you want to win ballgames, anyway.

That's because D-Train is the second coming of Bob Gibson and Satchel Paige. Absolutely fearless. On top of that, he could probably legitimately hit as high as the 6 slot in the batting order.

I honestly don't even care, to be honest. I'm more happy about The Playmaker in the Hall of Fame than I am about the home run record chase. But that's mainly because I think MLB has gone the way of the NBA where 'flash' is given more importance than substance.

AfRoMaN36

08-05-2007, 12:33 AM

I never actually saw him play so I can't officially say anything too much against him. But these are my own personal feelings and are not an attack on his fans or him.

To me Babe Ruth is a figurehead in baseball, no doubt, but I personally would not put him on my roster of greatest players ever. People make a big deal out of his homeruns, his pitching, etc. etc. But baseball was WAY different back then. Mounds, ballparks, the balls, and so on. Furthermore he never got the chance to play in a league with blacks, hispanics, asains, and other races. To me personally, I feel that the media and elder statesmen have made him out to be great simply because he was the great white hope.

Comming from a Yankee fan....

Watch your back, bud!

But seriously, he couldnt choose what era of baseball he was gunna play in. He had no choice if blacks played in it or not. He was still a man who hit more home runs than most teams hit combined in certain years.Era aside and in spite the fact that he was hammered while doing it, thats impressive.

ACCBiggz

08-05-2007, 10:47 AM

Wallbanger & yourself may have misinterpreted what I was saying. Like I started off by saying it takes nothing away from Ruth or what he accomplished, and like I said he is a figurehead in baseball. However, the things I listed is why he would never make MY all-time team. He was a pitcher and outfielder, mainly a position player you'd choose him because of his bat. My OF would definatly have Mays & Bonds which leaves one spot open and I'd probably choose someone else throughout history.

The thing with me saying he was being portrayed that way has with my feeling of how and why the media make him into that, not because of his actual talents and saying that he or anyone around him are racist. I'm not saying that, I'm just saying that is a big reason why the media portrays him.

As Wallbanger pointed out, Josh Gibson, and I find it interesting that no one in the media and so forth bring him up. It's the same as Ruth. He never had to play against Whites, Hispanics, etc. either.

But maybe you both just intrepreted what I was saying wrong. It isn't a slight against Ruth or what he has done.

PeterHilton

08-05-2007, 12:24 PM

Bary Bonds is a douche bag. He is a total and abject failure as a person. There is not a single thing about him that makes me want to root for him. Honestly, a huge part of the reason that the steroid backlash from the fans has become centered on him is that A)he's chasing the most respected record in all of baseball and B)he's a piece of crap.

I don' think there's any way to argue he wasn't chemicaly enhanced. And if you look at this career numbers, if he doesn't go on this never-before-seen godlike streak in the latter stages of his career, he probably never gets anywhere near Aaron.

Sad part is: if Bonds never does anything out of his normal means he's still a first ballot HOFer and one of the greatest OFers ever. He probably only ever hits 600 plus HRs but fans would've remembered him as this disgruntled guy who became an icon of the game in an era filled with cheaters by simply using his god-given ability.

Now, no matter what, he will never get the credit as an athl;ete that he deserves. His legacy will forever be tied with this "tainteD" recoprd. And most fans will spend the next few years rooting for someone to remove him from the record book as quickly as possible.

PeterHilton

08-05-2007, 12:33 PM

Also, Babe Ruth was an animal. He competely revolutionized baseball. He destroyed the way the game was played offensively. He was hitting 40 HRs whehentire teams wouldn't hit more than 20.

It would be like someone coming into the league today and hititng 300 HRs a season.

Placed int he cointext of when eh played, Babe Ruth was the single greatest offensive player in the history of the game. Period.

Oh..and one of the top 50 left handed starting pitchers ever too.

The media loves kepeing the legend of Ruth alive..but honestly..if you look at his career number....he really was that good.

ACCBiggz

08-05-2007, 12:51 PM

Placed int he cointext of when eh played, Babe Ruth was the single greatest offensive player in the history of the game. Period.

Oh..and one of the top 50 left handed starting pitchers ever too.
To you. As I said my post was based on my own thoughts and not an opinion of anyone else. From why I think that he is put in the regards he is in by the media. And on a note as such we talk with Bonds, I myself wonder what it really was like. I don't know, I wasn't alive or involved with baseball at that point in time. It's possible on a variety of ways that his numbers may have been tainted in a number of ways, and I'm not talking steroids. I'm not saying it's likely, but possible. However, because it happened way back when no one questions it.

Bary Bonds is a douche bag. He is a total and abject failure as a person.
Unless you know him personally I don't see how anyone can talk about another person.

I don' think there's any way to argue he wasn't chemicaly enhanced.
There are plenty of arguments. Starting with off-season training the the advancements made in supplements. Every player today is chemically altered because they all take supplements.

PeterHilton

08-05-2007, 01:40 PM

To you. As I said my post was based on my own thoughts and not an opinion of anyone else. From why I think that he is put in the regards he is in by the media. And on a note as such we talk with Bonds, I myself wonder what it really was like. I don't know, I wasn't alive or involved with baseball at that point in time. It's possible on a variety of ways that his numbers may have been tainted in a number of ways, and I'm not talking steroids. I'm not saying it's likely, but possible. However, because it happened way back when no one questions it.

Blood thinners and speed? Because that's really all that was around back then. Unless he played his entire career

Unless you know him personally I don't see how anyone can talk about another person.

Whatever.

Beyond the - literally - thousands of reports of staff and team personnel and fan and teammates from around the league about his attitude since his career started, the guy has also very publicly been a total jerk many, many times.

The man publicly humiliated a service member who wanted to exchange one of Barry's HR balls for an autographed bat last season.

Two seasons ago he called one of his fomer teammates a racist because they had the nerve to say Barry hadn't ben "one of the guys" while they were on the same team.

During the baseball strike he petitioned to have his child support payments suspended due to the stoppage of his income. At the time he'd been making in the neighborhood of $20 million a year for the previous three years.

His first season in SF he blew off a group of kids who wanted an autograph..a group of kids with AIDS...at a charity softball game....for AIDS awareness.

I could go on, but if you're any kind of fan you've probably heard these before.

Barry Bonds is an a-hole. Why bother tryiong to justify his actions by saying"you don't know him personally" when so many of the people who DO know him personally have said the same things?

There are plenty of arguments. Starting with off-season training the the advancements made in supplements. Every player today is chemically altered because they all take supplements.

No amount of off-season work-outs explains the fact that, at age 34, at a period in his careeer when EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME has begun to decline statistically, Barry Bonds increased his output in every major offensive categroy. It's physiologically improbable.

Throw in the fact that his best friend and trainer was running a steroid syndicate, that he admitted to using a substance which was a steroid (even though he said he didn't know it at the time), and the grand jury testimony and records from Victor Conti that Barry was purchasing large quantities of steroids and HGH, and I'd say its totally reasonable to say that Barry Bonds was using large quantities of every performance enhancement drug available.

I'm sure there are arguments against that. they are just not really logical or plausible.

ACCBiggz

08-05-2007, 01:57 PM

Blood thinners and speed? Because that's really all that was around back then. Unless he played his entire career
I'm sure there are more things than that, and like I said, not just drugs. There are also possibilities about corruption that goes along with serving up balls on a platter. I'm not saying this is what happened, but no means am I saying it, but it's possible. No one knows for sure about anything back in the "glory days" of sports. You could speculate on anything.

Barry Bonds is an a-hole. Why bother tryiong to justify his actions by saying"you don't know him personally" when so many of the people who DO know him personally have said the same things?
Again, you don't know him personally. I'm not a judgemental person, and I'm not going to judge someone on a personal level like that. There are an equal amount of people who like Barry, you are just viewing it from someone elses perspective. I know people I don't like and think they are these choice words you use, but there are also people who think they are fantastic.

No amount of off-season work-outs explains the fact that, at age 34, at a period in his careeer when EVERY OTHER PLAYER IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME has begun to decline statistically, Barry Bonds increased his output in every major offensive categroy. It's physiologically improbable.

Throw in the fact that his best friend and trainer was running a steroid syndicate, that he admitted to using a substance which was a steroid (even though he said he didn't know it at the time), and the grand jury testimony and records from Victor Conti that Barry was purchasing large quantities of steroids and HGH, and I'd say its totally reasonable to say that Barry Bonds was using large quantities of every performance enhancement drug available.

I'm sure there are arguments against that. they are just not really logical or plausible.
There are plenty of logical rebuttles. Just because you are steadfast in the your ways of thinking you refuse to accept them. Again, I'm not saying he did or didn't, I don't know. I wasn't there, and I don't have photos from him taking things and long conversations with the man about this. But there have been so many advances in supplements outside of HGH, and other drugs. There are plenty of other scenarios. And saying he has used them because everyone else didn't do what he did is a laughable argument. If that were a legit argument then you can question just about anything, anywhere, anytime.

And as for Anderson, I covered that. Like I said, it was his best friend. I know if I were Bonds and my best friend and someone I trusted to hire as my trainer came in and said, "Hey, I got this flaxseed oil and this is what it does..." that I wouldn't question him. I'm sure people would say that is Bonds' fault for not questioning him, but how many people would question there best friend about these things. If he said it's flaxseed oil, then I'd believe that it was. Now this may have not been the case but a story he made up, again I don't know. There is a reason I hate sensationalistic media.

You have your opinion, I have mine. I will forever look at Bonds as one of the all-time greatest players to ever play the game and won't have a second thought about it. We are simply in a different era in baseball. Bonds' HR Record does not diminish anyone that came before him and will not taint anyone who comes after him in my mind. Now you think differently, that's fine. Your opinion, you are entitled to it. And we should leave it at that.

Remianen

08-05-2007, 02:46 PM

And most fans will spend the next few years rooting for someone to remove him from the record book as quickly as possible.

"OH MY GOD, A-Rod has 500 homers and he's only 32!"

It's already started.

There are plenty of logical rebuttles. Just because you are steadfast in the your ways of thinking you refuse to accept them. Again, I'm not saying he did or didn't, I don't know. I wasn't there, and I don't have photos from him taking things and long conversations with the man about this. But there have been so many advances in supplements outside of HGH, and other drugs. There are plenty of other scenarios. And saying he has used them because everyone else didn't do what he did is a laughable argument. If that were a legit argument then you can question just about anything, anywhere, anytime.

ACCBiggz, while I respect your opinion, you do realize that the above makes you seem awfully naive, don't you?

By that line of thinking, Michael Vick is totally innocent of any wrongdoing.

Sure, he owned the property where dogfighting took place.

Sure, he transported dogs from Georgia, New York, and other states to the property in Virginia.

Of course he knew the people who were involved in running the operation. They're his cousins!

But there's no way he could be guilty of any of that (even though that last part, knowing the primary suspects, proves the federal conspiracy charge)......because I didn't see him do it with my own two eyes and I didn't speak to Mike about it and have him confess to me about doing these things.

I'm not saying you're naive. What I'm saying is that the "I wasn't there, he didn't tell me, I didn't see it happen" kinda perspective seems short-sighted. Or maybe I'm just jaded and cynical. Okay, take out the 'maybe' part. :p

And as for Anderson, I covered that. Like I said, it was his best friend. I know if I were Bonds and my best friend and someone I trusted to hire as my trainer came in and said, "Hey, I got this flaxseed oil and this is what it does..." that I wouldn't question him. I'm sure people would say that is Bonds' fault for not questioning him, but how many people would question there best friend about these things. If he said it's flaxseed oil, then I'd believe that it was. Now this may have not been the case but a story he made up, again I don't know. There is a reason I hate sensationalistic media.

I can totally agree that sometimes the media blows up the littlest thing. But I can't say that with millions hanging in the balance (see: Jordan, Michael for what a positive image can earn you), I wouldn't be questioning everything that goes into my body. It's like Shawne Merriman's excuse ("I didn't know there was a banned substance in there"). You have the resources available to you (FOR FREE) to find out so the "I didn't know" defense doesn't really hold up. I know of many people who got strung out because their "best friend" said, "Here, try this". My own best friend would think it strange if I just took anything she handed me and said, "Okay" instead of "What's this?". And I don't even have to worry about being tested for anything. I have close friends on my payroll, but if I question MY MOTHER on stuff, you'd best believe I'm questioning everybody else. :p

For better or worse, the old adage is law: People will judge you by the company you keep. When I had known/reputed "narcotics traffickers" around me, guess what people thought I was? Likewise, if you hang around Republicans, people will think you're of that affiliation. So if your best friend is "pushing weight", of ANY kind, it'll reflect on you. THAT is mainly what Bonds is dealing with. His reputation, his legacy, is shot from a professional standpoint, to the point where whether he did or didn't, knowingly or unknowingly, he's guilty (if only by association).

Travis

08-05-2007, 02:52 PM

Just a quick observation, wasn't it around the age of 34 that all star pitchers like Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson(in their own times) had the most success, most K's, and their best ERA's of their careers?

Imagine how much respect a guy like Cal Ripken Jr would get if he broke the homerun record(if he had the physical power). He's played 1 over 3,000 games with over 11,500 at bats. A true Ironman of the sport. If he held the record, it would very prestigious and his own health status probably wouldn't be at question if he had a good average every single year. But the good Home Run average seems to falling right in front of A-Rod. When Barry breaks the record, it won't be long until A-Rod beats it, probably no more than 5 years later. I just hope he won't be making mistakes, getting into bad situations that could possibly give him an asterisk by his name.

But on Babe Ruth, players of his time, and similar to little league baseball today, played many positions, and became great at them. When was the last time you heard of a Pitcher who has amassed over 300 Home Runs in general? It doesn't happen anymore. Why should it really matter who Ruth faced off against. If he were to hit a homerun against a black man, an asian, puerto rican, whatever, would it give him more prestige? Also, Ruth was the first person to hit a homerun at the Polo Grounds, the old field the Yankees used to play at. And at the polo grounds, the left and right field walls at the foul posts were under 280 feet, with the center field wall near 480 feet with the walls almost 20 feet high. The fields they played in had a huge influence on their playing, hitting a homerun could also mean hitting it between the gap in the outfield. So it's hard to compare how good players are today than they were in the golden era.

PeterHilton

08-05-2007, 03:23 PM

I'm sure there are more things than that, and like I said, not just drugs. There are also possibilities about corruption that goes along with serving up balls on a platter. I'm not saying this is what happened, but no means am I saying it, but it's possible. No one knows for sure about anything back in the "glory days" of sports. You could speculate on anything.

The fac tthat you even speculate that people "served up homeruns" is utterly ridiculous.

There are an equal amount of people who like Barry, you are just viewing it from someone elses perspective.

Yeah, I doubt it.

The majority of MLB fans don't like Barry Bonds. And while some people are quick to play the "it's because he's black" card, Barry has been severely disliked for most of his career. The chase for the record has put it in a maginified spotlight, and I'm sure there are actually people who don't like Barry because he's black, but he's just not a good person.

There are plenty of logical rebuttles. Just because you are steadfast in the your ways of thinking you refuse to accept them. Again, I'm not saying he did or didn't, I don't know. I wasn't there, and I don't have photos from him taking things and long conversations with the man about this. But there have been so many advances in supplements outside of HGH, and other drugs. There are plenty of other scenarios. And saying he has used them because everyone else didn't do what he did is a laughable argument. If that were a legit argument then you can question just about anything, anywhere, anytime.

No, that's a perfectly feasible argument. Baseball is a game of statisitcs with more than a hundred years of history to create comparisons.

What is more probable: that Barry Bonds was taking steroids in an era where a large number of players were also using steroids OR that he's the first person in the history of the game to reach his offensive prime in his 14th big league season?

Also, the "I wasn't there" argument is pretty stupid. As a society we judge people all the time based on the preponderance of evidence. And based on that, Barry is far more likely to have done steroids than not.

He wasn't the only one. And I'm sure a big chunk of players are using HGH now. But Barry did what he did.

There is a reason I hate sensationalistic media.

Grand jury testimony isn't "sensationalistic media." People didn't just invent this stuff.

I would have way more respect for the argument: Well even if he did steroids, so were a lot of the other players. This isn't Barry's problem. It's baseball's.

But to just stick your head in the sand and deny it because "you weren't there" sounds ridiculous. Hell, even the people who run baseball admit there was a problem.

Barry Bonds was the best player in an era where a large prtion of the players were cheating. That's what history will say. And yes, it will diminish his accomplishments because history will never give Barry the credit he deserves *because* he took a short cut he didn't really have to.

PeterHilton

08-05-2007, 03:32 PM

Just a quick observation, wasn't it around the age of 34 that all star pitchers like Nolan Ryan and Randy Johnson(in their own times) had the most success, most K's, and their best ERA's of their careers?

On Ryan: No. His best season were in his mid 20s. He still threw hard as hell, but he was really nothing more than a .500 pitcher with a lot of strikeouts from the age of 30 on.

You wanna talk about a media creation....:rolleyes:

On the Big Unit: yup. And when you consider that his statistical prime came between 98 and 02 when most people who've looked at the issue think steroid use was at its highest..well, if someone accused Johnseon (or Roger Clemens for that matter) then I would say that's fairly believable.

Wallbanger

08-05-2007, 05:43 PM

PH and Remi are on the money. I don't need to know the man personally when multiple sources have documented his bad behavior.

That more than anything is why I don't want to see him as the recordholder; he is a horrible role model and a poor ambassador of the sport.

djthefunkchris

08-05-2007, 07:33 PM

I don't know if he is or isn't, was or wasn't, but I do know ganging up on Biggz isn't going to change his opinion, or make anyone's case more believable.

I think it's blown up way more then it ever should have. Sensationalism is what I would call most the stuff I've read. Mainly because "Inside source's" doesn't tell me who.

I believe he was taking steriods, mainily because his head has grown like 5 size's bigger. Actually, that's about the only reason I do. I don't think it's that unusual for someone to reach their peak in their 30's, and I don't think George Foreman was using steriods when he did what everyone thought was impossible. I DO NOT BELIEVE he has been using them anytime lately though... and his game has not took a sudden dive. I don't think he's been using for probably over a year now... So to me all the "you can only do it if your on steriods" arguement goes in the outhouse.

I do think he did use them, and knew it. I however, don't think he has been using them ever since it's blown up news wise.

theoutlaw321

08-05-2007, 10:47 PM

I guess since I'm the one that started this I should weigh in.

First of all sorry Biggz, I don't know Bonds personally, but I don't think there's any doubt on whether or not he's a total a**. He is.

Now with that out of the way, I do think there's a witch hunt sort of aspect to the whole Did Barry do 'roids' debate? Now let me finish before blasting me. I'm not completely defending him either. Let's get this out of the way right off the bat. Do I think he ever did? Honestly, I'm no where near that naive. Yes I think that at some point he took or used something that was or is on the banned substance list. Can I prove it? No, and to this point neither has anyone else. There's a lot of players that it has been proven that they have. By positive tests or admission. I too point to the point that Peter I believe made. His best friend is in jail for distributing the stuff. Now is that proof positive? No, but I abide by the fact that perception is reality. The perception is that he did.

I could probably cite examples of others that have peaked later in their careers just as he has, but again I would be labeled as naive. The fact is that none of them just tied the most sacred record in sports. Barry did.

The fact that his physical size increased so much over his younger days(some of which can be traced to his increased weight training,) and his production increased at a later age. Couple this with the undeniable fact that he is perceived as a world class jerk by the media and others in baseball and the ties to BALCO and you have the public perception that he has achieved what he has due to artificial means. Can I prove it? Like I said no I can't. Can I prove he didn't? Can't do that either.

I will offer this up for discussion though, I don't blame baseball for him or anyone else using performance enhancing drugs, but I do blame them for not stopping it earlier. It's a catch 22 for them. They needed the Sosa/McGwire homerun chase to get back in the fans good graces after canceling a World Series because they were haggling over how to spilt up billions of dollars. Now years later it has come back to bite them in the a**. Does anyone else not think it's comical to see Bud standing there with his hands in his pockets not knowing what else to do but look like the idiot that he is? This all happened on his watch. Hehe.

Barry will be perceived how he will be perceived. History will sort that all out. He is one of the greatest players of his generation. I think he was a Hall of Famer before there was ever a hint of all this. Will this record be tainted? It already is. 7 years from now it will be gone barring injury to A-Rod.

And in the unlikely event that he(Barry) is ever to prove his innocence, then I will offer up and apology to him.

PeterHilton

08-06-2007, 11:12 AM

I don't know if he is or isn't, was or wasn't, but I do know ganging up on Biggz isn't going to change his opinion, or make anyone's case more believable.

It's not ganging up. It's a debate.

I think it's blown up way more then it ever should have. Sensationalism is what I would call most the stuff I've read. Mainly because "Inside source's" doesn't tell me who.

Well then, how about the grand jury testimony.

I believe he was taking steriods, mainily because his head has grown like 5 size's bigger. Actually, that's about the only reason I do. I don't think it's that unusual for someone to reach their peak in their 30's, and I don't think George Foreman was using steriods when he did what everyone thought was impossible. I DO NOT BELIEVE he has been using them anytime lately though... and his game has not took a sudden dive. I don't think he's been using for probably over a year now...

You are not very well informed on these points.

One...yes, its incredibly unsusual for a *baseball player* to hit their peak in their 30s. As a matter of fact, statisitcally, Bonds is almost a completely unique player in the entire history of the game.

Your George Foreman example is a bad defense because most people who understand boxing realize that he was not at his physical peak when he made his late comeback. Geaorge Foreman who fought Aliwas aphysical beast who just happened to run into arguably the greatest heavyweight of his time, and Ali stil wanted no part of a rematch Foreman in his 40s was a big guy who could stand there and punch in a watered down heavyweight division.

Not the same thing. Not the same skill set. Not the same sport.

So to me all the "you can only do it if your on steriods" arguement goes in the outhouse.

I do think he did use them, and knew it. I however, don't think he has been using them ever since it's blown up news wise.

Again, not well informed.

Nobody said he wasn't a great player. More than anything, the steroid use provided a GIGANTIC athletic boost which led to a huge statistical boost at a stage of his career when most of his peers are beginning to wind down.

You can look it up: in the three seasons prior to 99 Barry Bonds' numbers decreased in almost all his offensive categories. He was getting hurt more often. He was, in fact, performing exactly how you'd expect most players who had been in the big league for 14 years to perform.

And then he went on a four year stretch where he basically hit everything he saw and put up some of the greatest offensive numbers ever. 70 points above his career batting average, averaged 55 HRs a year when during his prime he averaged barely over 40.....just ridiculous stuff. That stuff doesn't happen in team sports.

Thirty five year old two guards don't just start averaging 35 ppg for four years if they are a career 2p ppg guy.

And actually..yes, if you look at his numbers since the story blew up and testing was instituted: he's declined rapidly, and he's hurt all the time. Which is how guys his age play. Which is closer to what he would've been doing naturally if he hadn't been on the juice since 99.

Not trying to be harsh, but these simplistic arguments are very frustrating for someone who is a fan of the game and understands WHY what Barry Bonds did for four years was so amazing/unbelievable.

PeterHilton

08-06-2007, 11:19 AM

Great post by outlaw, especially this:

Barry will be perceived how he will be perceived. History will sort that all out. He is one of the greatest players of his generation. I think he was a Hall of Famer before there was ever a hint of all this. Will this record be tainted? It already is. 7 years from now it will be gone barring injury to A-Rod.

The real shame is this: before 99, you could've argued that Barry was one of the greatest players ever. I mean, really...EVER. If his career had gone on his natural course, he would've hit 600 plus homeruns and ironically would've been remembered as one of the true "good guys" becaus - for all his shortcomings persoanlyy - he'd competed and excelled naturally in an era when so many others didn't. Kinda the way people will look back on guys like Ken Griffey Jr.

But now...because of his personality..and the allegations..barry Bonds will never get the credit he deserves and will probably be something of a pariah for the rest of hi s life outside SF.

At baseball's family reunion, Barry will be the cousin no one talks about.