More Flexibility In Weight Size [Archive]

ChrisPMWBenoit

01-30-2008, 07:16 AM

I think we need more flexibility in the different sizes of weight class. Not all wrestlers go through their career the same weight size (Eddie Guerrero mid 90s = Lightweight, 2004 = Middleweight) and there is also no way you can tell the difference between a Middleweight Tazz (Small, Fat) and a Middleweight Edge (Tall, Toned).

My idea would to have a static size stat, ranging from Midget to Giant, as wrestlers aren't going to grow or shrink over time. Then the game will also have a body type stat that varies, ranging from Skinny to Fat, wrestlers body shapes change over time whether from growing extra muscle or becoming fat due to old age or injury.

This way if you want your skinny, average sized midcarder to get a bit bigger to improve his look so he can be pushed into the Main Event then you can tell him to hit the gym to gain a bit of added muscle mass. If he does it over time, wham, his body type changes, he's now still average height but his body type has now changed to muscular and his look attribute has shot up a bit making it easier to push him to Main Event. Maybe his menace attribute could increase as well. Downside is the wrestler may be insulted by your proposal to gain more weight and become unhappy and want to move to another promotion that doesn't care too much how he looks.

Likewise you can tell someone who is fat to lose some weight, they do, stamina and athleticism goes up.

This is a very aesthetics-heavy business yet the wrestlers never change their look in the game.

ChrisPMWBenoit

01-30-2008, 07:32 AM

Height Sizes

Midget: Speaks for itself (eg. Hornswaggle)
Very Small: Under 5'5" (eg. Most women, Rey Mysterio)
Small: 5'6" - 5'9" (Dean Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, Jamie Noble)
Average: 5'10" - 6'1" (Shawn Michaels, Christian , Chris Jericho)
Tall: 6'2" - 6'6" (Randy Orton, Triple H, The Rock)
Very Tall: 6'7" - 6'11" (Kane, Undertaker)
Giant: Over 7' (Big Show, Great Khali)

Body Types

Skinny/Lean: (Spike Dudley)
Toned/Athletic: (Edge, Randy Orton, Cody Rhodes)
Muscular: (John Cena, Triple H, Batista, Brock Lesnar)
Fat: (Rikishi, A-Train)

Weight Class

Rey Mysterio (1999): Very Small & Toned = Small
Rey Mysterio (2008): Very Small & Muscular = Lightweight
Eddie Guerrero (1998): Small & Toned = Lightweight
Eddie Guerrero (2004): Small & Muscular = Middlewight
Christian (1999): Average & Skinny = Lightweight
Christian (2008): Average & Toned = Middleweight
Chris Jericho: Average & Muscular = Middleweight
Edge: Tall & Toned = MIddleweight
Brock Lesnar: Tall & Muscular = Heavyweight
Rikishi: Tall & Fat = Large Heavyweight
Undertaker: Very Tall & Toned = Heavyweight
Kane: Very Tall & Muscular = Large Heavyweight

Adam Ryland

01-30-2008, 09:15 AM

EDIT - Misread the post.

BurningHamster

01-30-2008, 09:24 AM

I don't know, we could just replace the World Heavyweight Championship with the World Tall and Fat Championship.

Akki

01-30-2008, 09:48 AM

I think this is a very good idea. It would definetely help in the realism department, and allow for greater customization of wrestlers, as well as making it possible to switch weight divisions like some wrestlers have done, as well as having a large combination of body types and sizes.

Very Small & Fat: Big Dick Johnson.

mad5226

01-30-2008, 11:05 AM

just think of all the midget feds that would pop up lol

Akki

01-30-2008, 11:42 AM

just think of all the midget feds that would pop up lol

Yeah, that would actually be a possibility, where you can set as part of a fed's Product a certain height or body type. Such as only midgets, or only muscular guys, or whatever. Right now, the different between someone who is a midget and someone who is just short and skinny.

JP317

01-30-2008, 06:13 PM

I like the fact that it seems th be thought out a little. A small little equasion (done in game) and we have a what seems to be added on idea for what the weightclass should be like.
P.S. I hope that all makes sence I'm like half asleep right now, sorry.

tommytomlin

01-31-2008, 12:10 AM

praguepride

01-31-2008, 01:27 AM

just think of all the midget feds that would pop up lol

I want one :D

Akki

01-31-2008, 01:44 AM

As a modder, I would probably kill myself if I had to give a second weight stat to every single person in a database for a feature that only impacts upon itself. The combination of size + looks takes into account most of this. Tazz was a middleweight with an average looks, Orton is a middleweight with a great look. Anything beyond that is complicating the game and then putting an artificial limit on certain feds that they can only push muscular guys, when we've seen in the past that isn't true.

There are feds with only midgets, just as there are feds with only women, or only masked wrestlers. But I couldn't for the life of me find a fed that loves to push Muscular guys... except three days a week on TV. The :artificial" limits could be added to the limits that your Owners give you.

I understand that Look is meant to reflect this in a way, but the problem with it being just a stat is that it doesn't reflect what kind of look it is, really. Like for a guy, he could be ripped, or he could be just a pretty face. I would like to think that they should get high looks, but under the current system, it's way more likely for the muscular guy to have a high Look stat. And for women, I would give both Stacy Keibler and Torrie Wilson a high score in the looks stat, but for different reasons. Torrie pretty much for being stacked and having a nice face, Stacy for having a more classic beauty. Why not be able to tell which is which in-game?

With this stat, the Looks stat could truly reflect how a person looks instead of how they're built. (I know that might not make sense, but I can't really think of another way to explain it.)

As a modder, I would think you'd prefer anything that can add more realism to a mod. I understand that it's extra work, but with the sizes of some of the databases, changing one more stat on every new wrestler you make can't be that big of a problem when you consider that you're adding 20 or however many more wrestlers, anyway.

Akki

01-31-2008, 01:45 AM

I want one :D

A midget fed, or a midget?

D16NJD16

01-31-2008, 08:22 AM

Booking a giant against a giant or a giant against a midget should add some entertainment value, even if minimal to match ratings.

Rob4590

01-31-2008, 04:17 PM

Booking a giant against a giant or a giant against a midget should add some entertainment value, even if minimal to match ratings.

Yeah, cos Khali v Hornswaggle was definitely MOTY candidate :rolleyes:

BurningHamster

01-31-2008, 04:31 PM

There are feds with only midgets, just as there are feds with only women, or only masked wrestlers. But I couldn't for the life of me find a fed that loves to push Muscular guys... except three days a week on TV. The :artificial" limits could be added to the limits that your Owners give you.

I understand that Look is meant to reflect this in a way, but the problem with it being just a stat is that it doesn't reflect what kind of look it is, really. Like for a guy, he could be ripped, or he could be just a pretty face. I would like to think that they should get high looks, but under the current system, it's way more likely for the muscular guy to have a high Look stat. And for women, I would give both Stacy Keibler and Torrie Wilson a high score in the looks stat, but for different reasons. Torrie pretty much for being stacked and having a nice face, Stacy for having a more classic beauty. Why not be able to tell which is which in-game?

With this stat, the Looks stat could truly reflect how a person looks instead of how they're built. (I know that might not make sense, but I can't really think of another way to explain it.)

As a modder, I would think you'd prefer anything that can add more realism to a mod. I understand that it's extra work, but with the sizes of some of the databases, changing one more stat on every new wrestler you make can't be that big of a problem when you consider that you're adding 20 or however many more wrestlers, anyway.

Does it really matter how specifically a person's looks are reflected within the game?

I can see Tommy Tomlin's point of view, as someone who is currently working on a mod which may never see the light of day I know all too well how much time it takes.

As cool as it is to have a lot of stats and a lot of details I would rather be able to set a promotion to have different hiring criteria (say if WWE likes muscular guys, have then favour guys with a good look and who are above a certain weight limit, and who have a certain amount of power for example.) It would be much easier to set some more detailed hiring criteria stats for a promotion or a promotions owner than to have to update every individual workers looks.

Not that I dislike the idea on the surface or am trying to have a go, I just don't think we'd see too many mods completed if we keep adding more stats to workers.

Akki

01-31-2008, 04:33 PM

Yeah, cos Khali v Hornswaggle was definitely MOTY candidate :rolleyes:

It might at least have some appeal for advanced booking or something. But Giant vs Giant matches, built up right, a good draws. And if the guys aren't horrible, it can turn out to be a pretty OK match.

If this feature is added, it could have something where people of similar height can work better with each other than with those of other heights, almost like a built in chemistry.

BurningHamster

01-31-2008, 04:40 PM

It might at least have some appeal for advanced booking or something. But Giant vs Giant matches, built up right, a good draws. And if the guys aren't horrible, it can turn out to be a pretty OK match.

If this feature is added, it could have something where people of similar height can work better with each other than with those of other heights, almost like a built in chemistry.

I'm not sure that always works out. Not sure I've seen a good match between two big power guys because usually they are both too big for the other wrestler to use his power moves on. But a big guy against a smaller guy usually lets the bigger guy look strong by doing his impressive moves, and the smaller guy look brave to keep coming back from a beating.

Other circumstances two similar guys do work well together. Benoit and Angle are fairly similar size and had good matches, Rey and Psicosis or Juvi back in the day.

I do agree with you though that matches between unusual sized workers should draw some kind of entertainment just through the novelty value of it.

Dolfanar

01-31-2008, 05:25 PM

The only problem I have with the weight classes in TEW is that you can't really do weight divisions using them. I've suggested the following before:

Suggested
100-120 Tiny
121-140 Very Small
141-160 Small
161-180 Lightweight
181-200 Middleweight
201-220 Light Heavyweight
221-240 Junior Heavyweight
241-260 Mid Heavyweight
261-300 Heavyweight
301-360 Large Heavyweight
361-450 Super Heavyweight
451+ Giant

Any more detailed then that, and you may as well put Height and Weight back in and allow Weight Divisions the way WMMA does things which would ROCK MY BRAIN!

Self

01-31-2008, 05:53 PM

Yeah, cos Khali v Hornswaggle was definitely MOTY candidate :rolleyes:

That only sucked because they were sub-par workers. Imagine if they were both awesome. It would be like Yoda vs Dooku, but... real... and extra awesome because of the size difference.

Blackman

01-31-2008, 06:15 PM

Yeah, cos Khali v Hornswaggle was definitely MOTY candidate :rolleyes:

It is. :D Or has the potential to the least. :D

As for the idea, it's ok, but it's not crucial to the game imo.

rodzillahotrod

01-31-2008, 07:37 PM

i don't see the difference as it is now in the game does it really matter if we put down the guys body type besides is size and muscle? imo if i put down very small and is strength above b- i already know it is a midget, women, or a rey misterio type of size it doesn't matter if hes fat because the game doesn't tell u if wrestle a was able to body slam wrestle b because he wasn't strong enough to pick his fat body wait up now if this was smackdown vs raw 07 then yea it matters but here i just don't see y its just another add on thats going to make modding longer to make. but i like the idea of wrestlers changing from lightweight to middleweight

Vladamire Dracos

02-01-2008, 03:10 AM

I like this idea. As the weight system in TEW currently stands, it can be hard to decide where on the scale to put a guy with an unusual build for a wrestler. To use an example from my own area, there is a wrestler built like a pro basketball player: 7'+ but lean for his height. Where would I put him in the current system? As a Giant or Large Heavyweight (although he would be much lighter than the majority of either groups) or a Heavyweight (although he stands much higher than them)? Being able to select his Height Range (Giant) and his Body Type (Lean) and having the game assign his size category from a matrix would take a ton of guess work out of creating mods, and just as importantly, make integrating additions to existing mods slightly easier as the size categories would finally be universal.

rodzillahotrod

02-01-2008, 03:31 PM

how many guys are really that tall and under 300lbs? i really don't know but i still can't picture a guy being 7' fighting for a middleweight or smaller title...

Sigilistic

02-01-2008, 03:44 PM

I think the idea is nice, and could serve to reflect real life instances, such as JBL, Chris Harris, and others getting notably fat.

Still, that could just as easily be reflected with the already-existing Looks attribute, and I believe it already is in fact.

tommytomlin

02-01-2008, 08:17 PM

I understand that Look is meant to reflect this in a way, but the problem with it being just a stat is that it doesn't reflect what kind of look it is, really. Like for a guy, he could be ripped, or he could be just a pretty face. I would like to think that they should get high looks, but under the current system, it's way more likely for the muscular guy to have a high Look stat.

When have booking decisions ever been made on a guy's face alone, and not his entire look? What impact would saying 'Randy Orton is pretty' have on the simulation?

And for women, I would give both Stacy Keibler and Torrie Wilson a high score in the looks stat, but for different reasons. Torrie pretty much for being stacked and having a nice face, Stacy for having a more classic beauty. Why not be able to tell which is which in-game?

What use is it? How have Torrie and Stacy been booked differently because they have slightly different hot bodies?

With this stat, the Looks stat could truly reflect how a person looks instead of how they're built. (I know that might not make sense, but I can't really think of another way to explain it.)

But looks IS how someone is built. It is whether they are attractive or unique or look like a star. If you add your original suggestion, where we say that Rey Mysterio is a small/muscular/lightweight, then what does the looks stat measure?

As a modder, I would think you'd prefer anything that can add more realism to a mod.

I'd prefer anything that makes the game play better. I don't think having to worry about whether we give Randy Orton an 80 for 'chiseled jawline' and a 75 for his muscles is really going to add much to the game, when we already have a general looks and superstar quality stat that cover every single one of these scenarios. It's adding needlessly complex detail to an area of the game that has a minimal effect on gameplay.

I understand that it's extra work, but with the sizes of some of the databases, changing one more stat on every new wrestler you make can't be that big of a problem when you consider that you're adding 20 or however many more wrestlers, anyway.

It's not changing one stat. I'm cool with new stats. It's trying to figure out a completely subjective stat, that will just lead to people whinging about how Batista's cheekbones mean he should get a 72 in looks over the 71 Cody Rhodes.

Akki

02-01-2008, 09:08 PM

Alright, maybe it can reflect how well they reflect the specific Body Type stat. Like if they're set at muscular, you could have the difference between Randy Orton, who's slighlty muscular, to someone like Batista who is ripped.

Actually, the Looks stat could be used as an extension of the Body Type stat, where it's like they're at a certain level. Let's say the Body Stats are Muscular, Normal, Fat, and Skinny. Someone starts at 100% Look, with Muscular as their body stat. But then they become lazy, and their Look starts to go down, but they're still muscular. When Look reaches 0, they drop down to normal, but with 100% Look again. If they're still lazy, the Look keeps going down until it reaches 0 again, at which point they change to either fat or skinny, with 100% Look again. And it keeps going, with the worst look possible 0% Looks, Skinny (like they're malnourished) or 0%, Fat (like they're a blob, think Big Daddy V or maybe even bigger).

The other way around, they start from Fat or Skinny at 0%, and then go to Normal, and then to Muscular.

This way, you could ask a wrestler to put on muscle or lose some weight. This could also be affected by Personal Stats. For example, Steroids, where if you pressure them to put on muscle they could resort to using them, which would result in faster gain of Look but the obvious side effects. Or Drugs, where an addiction can cause their body to detetiorate. Finding Religion could cause them to be inspired to take better care of their body if they're fat... So on. There's a lot of things that can be done from this, so it could have more than just a "minimal effect on gameplay".

Acidburned

02-02-2008, 10:43 AM

Akki

02-02-2008, 12:08 PM

How come TEW07 did not just use weight and heights in pounds and in feet and inches. Would this not be the proper way to have it in the game with maybe wrestlers losing weight or gaining weight as the game goes on. Maybe if a young worker gains more muscle mass then their look stat could maybe improve if they are in a sports entertainment promotion as wrestler are generally considered to have a better look by the crowd if they are bigger and more muscular.

Then again maybe i am not understanding the looks stat, its been about a year since i played TEW.

I think you're understanding it pretty well. I'm not sure, but I think the reason true weight and height were not used is because they're not needed, at least not like they're needed in WMMA.

I think that the proposed system would be able to simulate height and weight, as well as body type, without having to keep track of numbers.

foolinc

02-02-2008, 12:11 PM

How come TEW07 did not just use weight and heights in pounds and in feet and inches. Would this not be the proper way to have it in the game with maybe wrestlers losing weight or gaining weight as the game goes on. Maybe if a young worker gains more muscle mass then their look stat could maybe improve if they are in a sports entertainment promotion as wrestler are generally considered to have a better look by the crowd if they are bigger and more muscular.

Then again maybe i am not understanding the looks stat, its been about a year since i played TEW.

Because wrestling is work and the weight and height really doesn't matter.

hulkamaniac

02-03-2008, 03:23 AM

Because wrestling is work and the weight and height really doesn't matter.

True to a sense, but also not true. There are some feds where bigger guys get over easier and other feds where smaller guys can thrive because they're more athletic.

Maybe you tell a guy to bulk up, he refuses and his morale is down so his matches suck, he no-shows, etc... Maybe he goes and bulks up but the crowd doesn't buy Paul London as a muscle man. Maybe he tries to bulk up, but fails. Perhaps his athleticism stat suffers because he's now bulked up.

ChrisPMWBenoit

02-06-2008, 06:01 AM

I'd prefer anything that makes the game play better. I don't think having to worry about whether we give Randy Orton an 80 for 'chiseled jawline' and a 75 for his muscles is really going to add much to the game, when we already have a general looks and superstar quality stat that cover every single one of these scenarios. It's adding needlessly complex detail to an area of the game that has a minimal effect on gameplay.

I thought of this as an idea to add a lot to the gameplay, not just cosmetic. It would make your wrestler more flexible. Tell your hopeful future Main Eventer to put on more mass and he will then get a better look and the downside is it might pressure him into steroids is just 1 of many new additions this feature could bring. As for modders, I think it might actually be easier, now instead of debating if someone is a middleweight or heavyweight you just put Tall & Lean

It's not changing one stat. I'm cool with new stats. It's trying to figure out a completely subjective stat, that will just lead to people whinging about how Batista's cheekbones mean he should get a 72 in looks over the 71 Cody Rhodes.

I'm not sure what you're saying here, the body type and height stat wouldn't be measure in numbers.

ChrisPMWBenoit

02-06-2008, 06:02 AM

True to a sense, but also not true. There are some feds where bigger guys get over easier and other feds where smaller guys can thrive because they're more athletic.

Maybe you tell a guy to bulk up, he refuses and his morale is down so his matches suck, he no-shows, etc... Maybe he goes and bulks up but the crowd doesn't buy Paul London as a muscle man. Maybe he tries to bulk up, but fails. Perhaps his athleticism stat suffers because he's now bulked up.

Exactly what I'm getting at

panix04

02-06-2008, 06:49 AM

As somebody whos a semi active modder, i kind of like the suggestion of body typs etc. I think its easier to think in your head "yeah randy Orton is a fairly tall well toned dude" rather then thinking, "randy Orton, what would i guess his weight to be? What weight class does that make him?" I know most mods are based on wrestlers so its kind of easier to get hold of height/weight stats (atleast for WWE/TNA guys) but when it comes to indy guys it aint quite so simple.

I love the idea of introducing a workers physical stature as a facet of gameplay though, would definatly add a neat little addition. And there is definatly a precidence for it. Workers being dropped for being too heavy or being told to bulk up. And as pointed out, we all know how prominent steroids are in pro-wrestling, this could be written in to the system too. I can see it panning out with overdosing muscleheads and people developing anorexia in trying to shed a few pounds, wrestling physical stats detoriorating due to poor physique. I mean at the moment the weight doesn't add a lot to the game, but it could really be utilised in a big way should Adam choose to pursue it.

praguepride

02-06-2008, 10:46 AM

Here's the biggest question though...so what?

Does it really matter if Randy Orton is a Middleweight or a Heavyweight or a XXXXweight? Does the game care? The only differences I've seen is that modern product stresses lighter guys and traditional/brawling stress heavier guys. That's it. I think it's really easy to tell the difference between a Heavyweight and a Lightweight, so what does it matter whether Kane is listed as a Giant or a Super Heavyweight or a Large Heavyweight, just pick one and go on with it. If you're not sure just put Middleweight and move on, they fit anywhere. Heck, even the weight classes is just one step above fluff gamewise, and I'd hate to have to actually manage weight classes. That's important in real combat which is why weight and height are important in WMMA, but in wrestling where an 80lb weakling could easily defeat a 600lb monstrosity if that's the way it's booked, does height and weight really matter?

Adam Ryland

02-06-2008, 11:04 AM

The only differences I've seen is that modern product stresses lighter guys and traditional/brawling stress heavier guys. That's it.

Weights come into play significantly in the hiring and firing routines, play a major factor in the statistical caps that are calculated, are used extensively in how a worker is regarded by the fans, and of course are also referenced by both titles (weight limits) and gimmicks (restrictions). They are far from "fluff".