Soapland

[EkmO]

Maybe we could have a soap game where we book scripts and etc? Sign news star and etc

[Steeldogfan]

Maybe we could have a soap game where we book scripts and etc? Sign news star and etc

Please elaborate. I would like that myself. Are we talking about everyday soap operas, weekly night time like Dallas?

[EkmO]

Yeah like Eastenders, Emmerdial and etc. Signing new actors and booking storylines and etc, Alot of TEW but with actors instead

[AdmiralZ]

I've had an idea in my head about something like this for a long time. I only wish I had the programming knowledge to do it myself. I don't think it has to be confined to just soaps though, it could be for all kinds of television series', you could have dramas, sitcoms, sci-fi shows, spin offs etc. etc. etc. The scope for a game like this is massive and it's a market that literally no-one has tapped into yet.

[cappyboy]

Mark another down for this idea. Pretty much in the same boat as AdmiralZ. Have had this idea kicking about in my head for ages but have no programming aptitude or inclination to make it myself. Being able to do other TV shows as well would be good. No doubt about it. But as long as I could the soaps, any other genres would be gravy. I've long wanted the opportunity to play with Days of Our Lives circa 1993 and have Sami turn lesbian rather than bitchy heel.

[Steeldogfan]

Mark another down for this idea. Pretty much in the same boat as AdmiralZ. Have had this idea kicking about in my head for ages but have no programming aptitude or inclination to make it myself. Being able to do other TV shows as well would be good. No doubt about it. But as long as I could the soaps, any other genres would be gravy. I've long wanted the opportunity to play with Days of Our Lives circa 1993 and have Sami turn lesbian rather than bitchy heel.

Being that I am in my 40s, I think that I would reach back into the past and create a soap opera much like Dark Shadows. Barnabas Collins rules!!!!

[mistaken]

are there any games out there that even attempt this?

[cappyboy]

Not that I know of.

Oh and Steeldog, I'm only 35 but my mom and my older sibs will often go into wistful yearnings for the glory days of Dark Shadows when vintage TV comes up in conversation. Funny since there aren't any major horror fans in my family.

[mistaken]

i have to admit, i don't watch soaps, and hated it when my mother and sister used to watch soaps after school rather than anything else (hangs head in shame over the power rangers era)

but this idea is really intriguing me. not a wider television program but just a soap opera writer sim. so i have some questions, if you will indulge me.

I can think of 3 types of soaps:

day time tv (daily, orginaly sponsored by one company or product)
Prime time tv (weekly, ad sponsored)
foriegn language (i don't want to get into)


how many genere's of soap are there?
*horor (ie dark shadows)
*Romance ?
*family oriented ?
*political ???

While i would love to see Grey Dog or some one take a crack at this, i dont' know that it will rank high on their priority list. So i think a grass roots project would be cool. would thier be any interest in such a project?

[mistaken]

so i may have too much free time on my hands, so i'm even going to see how far i can take this little project.


'the following files
'sl_types.bi
'was written on 4/4/2008 by kevin weldon
'as part of the soapland project

type show
show_number as uinteger 'show reference number
sname as string * 50 'shows name
station_number as uinteger 'station reference number
fe as uinteger 'first episode number
ce as uinteger 'current episode number
length as uinteger '30 min, an hour, heaven forbid a two hour soap?
premier_date as uinteger 'date the show debuted
rating as byte 'the shows current rating
'****
'alot to add to this type not currently thinking about multiple shows
end type

Type station
station_name as uinteger 'station refence number
stname as string * 50 'name of station
call_letters as string * 5 'nickname or call sign for network
end type

Type actor
actor_number as uinteger 'actors reference number
gender as ubyte 'male or female
age as ubyte 'actual age
fname as string * 20 'first name
lname as string * 20 'last name
looks as uinteger '0 to 999 how hot are they
delivery as uinteger '0 to 999 how well do they speak
acting as uinteger '0 to 999 how well do they use body language
fame as uinteger '0 to 999 how well are they known
recent as uinteger '0 to 999 how hot is thier current work
contract_number as uinteger 'contract reference number, zero means no contract
end type

type actor_contract
contract_number as uinteger 'contract reference number can not be zero
lenght as uinteger 'lenght of contract in days
pay as uinteger 'amount of contract in dollars per month
start_date as uinteger 'start date of contract
new_contract as uinteger 'contract that replaced this one zero current or terminated
old_contract as uinteger 'contract that this one replaced Zero if original contract
show_number as uinteger 'show the contract is with
end type

type character
character_number as integer 'character referecence number
fname as string*20 'first name
lname as string*20 'last name
nname as string*20 'nick name
age as ubyte 'characters age
gender as ubyte 'male or female (should it have to match actor gender?)
actor_number as uinteger 'actor reference number
debut as uinteger 'debut date
end type

type character_actor_history
character_number as uinteger 'character reference number
actor_number as uinteger 'actor reference number
start_date as uinteger 'date actor started character roll
end_date as uinteger 'date actor ended character roll, 0 for current
end type

type story_line
story_number as uinteger 'story line reference number
start_date as uinteger 'date story line started
end_date as uinteger 'date story ended, zero if still running
story_name as string * 75 'story line name
new_story as uinteger 'story line that this story led into (zero if none)
old_story as uinteger 'story line that led into this story (Zero if none)
show_number as uinteger 'show that this story belonged too
fpe as uinteger 'first plot element
cpe as uinteger 'current plot element
lpe as uinteger 'current last plot element or actual if story has ended
rating as byte 'the story line rating (or current rating if not yet complete)
end type

type plot 'actually plot element i just don't feel like typing that a million times
plot_number as uinteger 'plot element reference number
Plot_name as string * 75 'name of plot element
fs as uinteger 'first scene in plot element
cs as uinteger 'currenct scene in plot element
ls as uinteger 'last scene in plot element
npe as uinteger 'next plot element (zero if none currently)
ppe as uinteger 'previous plot element (zero if first)
rating as byte 'the plot rating (or current rating if not yet complete)
end type

type scene
scene_number as uinteger 'scene reference number
scene_name as string * 50 'scene name
scene_length as uinteger 'lenth of scene in minutes
scene_breaks as uinteger 'number of segment scene is cut into
cs as uinteger 'current segment (used if scene is spanned acrossed episodes)
rating as byte 'the scene rating
fse as uinteger 'first scene element
end type

type scene_element
'uknown how this will work
nse as uinteger 'next scene element
pse as uinteger 'previous scene element
end type

type episode
episode_number as uinteger 'episode reference number
number as uinteger 'acctual numeric episode number
rating as byte 'the episode rating
fee as uinteger 'first episode element
end type

type epi_element
'unknown how this will work
nee as uinteger 'next episode element
pee as uinteger 'previous episode element
end type

the code is in free basic, feel free to criticize but constructive help would be far more appreciated.

[cappyboy]

Rock on, Mistaken. Don't know enough to about coding to really help you. But I'll be happy to offer insight whenever I can.

[mistaken]

Rock on, Mistaken. Don't know enough to about coding to really help you. But I'll be happy to offer insight whenever I can.

basic suggestions are probably a good place to start.
-I'm going to start simple, at this point no Ai, only one show. and even though i've got ideas no networks or any other over head. in fact until i get the basics in not even ratings.

-if you look at the actor type you can see the stats actors will have
-if you look at the characters you will see the stats characters will have
(additional basic stats ideas welcome)

-at this point i am thinking about story lines be broken down as follows
story-lines -> Plot Points -> scenes -> scenes broken into parts

my example
storyline: Maria's baby

PP1:maria datess1:maria goes out with Guy1
s2:maria goes back to Guy1's place
s3:maria goes out with Guy2
s4:maria goes back to Guy2's place
pp2:maria finds out she's pregnants1:maria at the doctors office
s2:maria tells freind1 not to tell anyone else
s3:maria tells freind2 not to tell anyone else
s4:friend2 tells guy1 about the pregnancy
s5:friend1 tells guy2 about the pregnancy
PP3:Maria is confronteds1:guy1 tells maria to get rid of the baby
s2:guy2 asks maria to marry him
s3:guy2 finds out about guy1 but says he still loves maria anyway
PP4:Maria deals with a miss carriageS1:maria goes to the hostpital for pain in her abdomen while out with guy2
s2:the doctor tells maria she's miss carried
s3:maria tells everyone it was just gas pains
s4:maria convices guy2 to elope with her
s5:now married maria says she has bad news she just miss carried.

ok so that is the format i'm working from. thoughts?

each scene would take place over one or more episodes.
each episode you would take and lay out the different scene to fill the episode time.

I want this to be fun, and not a tedious thing so any basic suggestions are cool.

i'm working on the boring stuff right now, menu functions, and screen layout. if this keeps going should we leave it in this thread or move it to the misc dynasty thread?

[Steeldogfan]

There was a political oriented soap opera called Capital. Info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_(TV_series)

The best horror soap opera was Dark Shadows. Passions was another ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passions ) baised more on the paranormal. There was Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, which was a soap parody before even Soap came along. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Hartman%2C_Mary_Hartman ) There was a Christian soap opera which was on the CBN network in the day. It was called Another Life ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Life ) and I thought it was great. But there are many different possibilities as far as the type of soap opera a person could come up with. Dunno it that helps anything.

[mistaken]

There was a political oriented soap opera called Capital. Info can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitol_(TV_series)

The best horror soap opera was Dark Shadows. Passions was another ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passions ) baised more on the paranormal. There was Mary Hartman, Mary Hartman, which was a soap parody before even Soap came along. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Hartman%2C_Mary_Hartman ) There was a Christian soap opera which was on the CBN network in the day. It was called Another Life ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Another_Life ) and I thought it was great. But there are many different possibilities as far as the type of soap opera a person could come up with. Dunno it that helps anything.

Thank you for the help! as usual though, i got way out ahead of myself. I need to walk before i run, so at this point I want to focus on what stats should be in, what form the storylines should take, and how should an episode be constructed.

it's this last one i'm having some trouble conceptualising. not quite sure how to interlace the scene parts, so that it is easy to follow what's going on, easy to do, and most importantly not overly tedious.

All ideas are welcome. basic ideas are NEEDED!

[Slim Jim]

Sounds similar to a game called Hollywood Mogul, though obviously from the name that was film-based rather than soap-based but it's a fun game along the same lines.

Also, mistaken, you might try downloading the free trial for Hollywood Mogul and see if it sparks any creative ideas for the game you are planning.

[Steeldogfan]

It seems that, from commercial to commercial, there are about three or four storylines going on, much like a Monday Night Raw. I would borrow from TEW 2007 here. You have to fill up a time frame by adding segments, and alloting time to each segment. This could be done with the soap opera idea.

[mistaken]

It seems that, from commercial to commercial, there are about three or four storylines going on, much like a Monday Night Raw. I would borrow from TEW 2007 here. You have to fill up a time frame by adding segments, and allotting time to each segment. This could be done with the soap opera idea.

my problem with TEW as a basic model is that in wrestling each vignette is usually self contained. a match may span a commercial, but as time goes it runs from start to finish.

soap operas are the exact opposite. a scene may have 3 segments stretched across 1 show, or 10 stretched across the whole week.

breaks are usually at suspenseful points, to build up the scenes impact. how do you program this? and do you program when some one enters and leaves the scene?

maybe i'm over thinking this again. you simply go to your storyline's active scene you add it and say how many minutes. i keep track how many parts the scene ends up being. (to few divisions hurts because you did not utilize it's drama too many hurts because it gets on the fans nerves that it's drawing out. the even point is determined by the actors and the story's popularity?

[mistaken]

ok, life would be so much simpler if:
1) I didn't care about giving how the game looked
2) i used a real windows based language rather than free basic.

so where i stand right now. as you can see from my previous post, i've done most of the data types, though they are subject to change, for my rough game.

now i am working on the editor. but before that i have programmed a button library from scratch so this can be more point and click, and since i did not want to be tied down by default line spacing i went out and found a font library.

so every game I've made for myself I've been content to follow the prompts for new character creation, but since that means you can't edit or change anything i thought that was kind of limited for this application. . . SO. . . I am currently working on making up a text box library. I then need to polish the main program so that the buttons and text boxes work at the same time, so you can click the next box, or the save button rather than being tied down to the key board once you click into a text box. once i have the done, we can move on to finishing up the screens for data entry relatively quickly.

for there it will be time to move into the actual game.

This is where i really need your help. I've laid out my working model. but how should the grad system work?

i mean the program will know this about a scene hopefully:
1) which characters are in the scene.
2) the set (who's attributes i have not worked out yet)
3) the current rating of the story line the scene is part of.
4) how the show as a whole is doing so far

how should the rating work? i can't tell maria just bared her soul, can i?
suggestions encouraged!

(i am out late on monday nights so hopefully I will get some work done on this program on tuesday night)

[mistaken]

thinking about the ratings system. my current thoughts are equations from the actors stats, the storyline's progression, the type of scene and the purpose of the scene. will each have different affacts on three areas.

Drama
Entertainment
Beleivablitly.

my current concept is a soap opera is the ballance of drama and entertainment against beleivability. that is for the amount drama and entertainment you are willing do glance over those things that make a soap opera unbelievable.

so your job when writing a good scene, or plot or storyline is to strike a balance between the unbelievable and Drama and fun your trying to convey.

[Steeldogfan]

Sounds good to me.

[mistaken]

so i've done some paper work on game mechanics. but mostly i'm still plugging away at the code.

since i'm programming in freebasic (halfway between qbasic and vb) and no little about windows libraries. this whole interface is stretching my knowledge. which is a great thing but is slowing me down. i'm programing buttons, text boxes and all controls from scratch. though i did find a font library that has saved me a tone of time and made things look much better.

so far all coding has gone into just one area, the editor and more particularly the add actor screen. my goal is to get this to a level i would be happy to let other see, and then use it as the template for creating the rest of the editor. once the editor is up i will concentrate on how the data should interact and bring the paper game into the computer.

as for AI, well when we get there, we'll talk about it, because i can't say that something i've ever tried before.

again as always any ideas for how the game mechanics should work are greatly appreciated.

thank you for the support!

[mr_mitb]

Love this idea. Maybe you should look at some soaps to see what sort of segments you could have

[mistaken]

actors in list in order by first name or last name? if last name do you want them displayed first last or last, first?

work and life conspire against me, so progress is beyond slow on both this project and my Dynasty.

I'm still slugging through the learning process of the boring stuff.
Still working in the editor, perfecting the actor add process.
-the text boxes are now in place and check to make sure the right kind of data was inserted.
-i added the save button and it actually saves the data.

Still to do in the short term
-add double check to the save button so it won't save bad data.
-have it clear the fields after the save
-add the ability to edit the workers into the screen, this will be a huge project for me I can pull the names and numbers of each actor very easily, but programing a scroll bar is not something i'm sure about yet. either way that part of just this screen may take me a while. as once i've got that all up i've got to integrate a mouse click into the list.

thanks for sticking with me.

edits:
double check added and appears to be working
i now pull the saved record on ender to actors screen, step 1 of who knows how many down.

[W3LSHY]

Just seen this and I thought too my self wow. Can't wait for this to be a game lol and for you to finish :) Great stuff, keep it up. And i would put actors in order by first name ;)

[mistaken]

Just seen this and I thought too my self wow. Can't wait for this to be a game lol and for you to finish :) Great stuff, keep it up. And i would put actors in order by first name ;)

which is how i was leaning what about characters though?

does it make more sense to put those in by last name so you can deal with family all at once, more easily? (at some point i will build character relations but that is much farther off than even my current plans)

[Steeldogfan]

which is how i was leaning what about characters though?

does it make more sense to put those in by last name so you can deal with family all at once, more easily? (at some point i will build character relations but that is much farther off than even my current plans)

Seems to me that last, the first would be better

EX. Masters, Brenda
Masters, George B,

That would make dealing with the families better, and give a clearer picture of things.

[mr_mitb]

yeh i think sorting by second name would be easier, but would you have actor names or the names of their characters

[mistaken]

yeh i think sorting by second name would be easier, but would you have actor names or the names of their characters

actors are in one file.

characters in another.
at this point in the character file it is the characters name i was planning on displaying.

As an aside I think tonight I'm going to post a screen shot. why? to limit expectations.

the truth is i should probably learn vb and try to program it in a more windows friendly way. the down side to that is the free version does not produce executable code, and I would have to learn a new language. The upside is i would have a new skill.

Either way tonight i continue work on the scroll box.

[cappyboy]

Seems to me that last, the first would be better

EX. Masters, Brenda
Masters, George B,

That would make dealing with the families better, and give a clearer picture of things.

Agreed. Especially after get a few years in and the founding family trees start to get typically gnarled from marriages and love affairs. Like every time I've watched Days of Our Lives the last couple years or so, I've wondered if the writers truly appreciate how technically close Max & Stephanie are. Or if they are so far removed from when that was established that they overlook it because the family relationship between them isn't direct blood. Any feature that would enable us from falling into the same trap would be welcome. So long as we still have the room to take that kind of creative license by choice and risk annoying the fans with it.

[mistaken]

Disclaimer: You get what you pay for!

there is only like 15 hours work in this project, and much of that has been learning curve to make something others could use.

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/mistaken4now/soapland/mainmenu.jpg

this is the main menu, the only buttons that work right now are the editor button which pulls up the secondary menu with actors in it. actors takes you to...

http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/mistaken4now/soapland/actors.jpg

i've gone all out on this screen. tab actually takes you from field to field. and clicking back into the box will allow you to edit it's contents. screen position will probably have to be adjusted once I get the scroll box in and working.

And yes i went with girly colors, it amused me.

while comments are welcome, I stand by my disclaimer. :D thank you all for your support.

remember suggestions are always welcome, I would hate to put in all this time and they not have anyone want to play it.

[Steeldogfan]

Don't forget to take into consideration locations that scenes take place, and maybe rate as to the effect of the type of scene you are going to do. Most soaps take place in the local hospital, why, I do not know.

[cappyboy]

Don't forget to take into consideration locations that scenes take place, and maybe rate as to the effect of the type of scene you are going to do. Most soaps take place in the local hospital, why, I do not know.

Hmmm, let's see here. Births. Deaths. Prolonged diseases. Hot nurses and doctors to drool over. Boardroom intrigue. Complicated donations to cancer wards. Gossip. Politics. Records to muck around in. Gee, I wonder too why hospitals are so prominent in soaps. :D

[Steeldogfan]

Hmmm, let's see here. Births. Deaths. Prolonged diseases. Hot nurses and doctors to drool over. Boardroom intrigue. Complicated donations to cancer wards. Gossip. Politics. Records to muck around in. Gee, I wonder too why hospitals are so prominent in soaps. :D

Don't forget these favorites:

Oh dear, where are we going to have lunch? How about at the hospital?
Oh, did you hear? The family reunion is going to be at the hospital this year.
Well, imagine bumping into you here at the hospital.
Oh, don't forget to go to the wedding! It's going to be at the hospital!

lmao:D :D :D

[cappyboy]

Don't forget these favorites:

Oh dear, where are we going to have lunch? How about at the hospital?
Oh, did you hear? The family reunion is going to be at the hospital this year.
Well, imagine bumping into you here at the hospital.
Oh, don't forget to go to the wedding! It's going to be at the hospital!

lmao:D :D :D

Okay. the occasional bedside wedding I'll give you. But otherwise you're just being silly here. :)

[mistaken]

So you don't think I've quite to go work at the hospital for all the fun you make it sound like.

I've down loaded Visual basic.net and visual studio 2005. what does this mean? Learning curve. but if i can learn to use the forms/buttons/text boxs/list boxs/ and scroll boxes i will maybe save myself from an anxiety attack trying to keep all of these user generated functions straight.

thanks for your patience, hopefully this will be a time saving venture in the long run. (i may need to buy a book though, as the internet help sites i've found have been less than help full)

[EkmO]

You can download alot of books which will help you, I have a thew and i have VS6

[mistaken]

For the Record i Have VB.net 2005 express edition up and running

so far i have replicated the look of the Editor's Actor addition page.

i have solved my issue of switching between forms. (that was busting me up for almost a week) the upside is i can lay out a form in about 10 minutes as opposed to about 5 hours, and it looks way better.

down side, I hate structures, old school user defined types are my friend. that said i have one structure in place maybe, really fuzzy on where declarations need to go in this language to apply to all the forms. (a point in the right direction would not be unappreciated)

up next i need to learn how to save to a text file, and retrieve from a text file, and then i need to move onto arrays and actually handling the data being gathered by those handy little text boxes on my nice little form.

My wife is home this weekend so little progress will be made between now and wednesday next week. (thursday = extra work so i can take a half day friday, friday -> monday = wife is home, tuesday = catch up from taking monday off) so Wednesday sounds about right, oh and i still need to post the show i finished for my NBC wrestling diary, so I will keep you up to date, but learning time maybe at a premium.

As always any suggestion about the program feel free to leave them, any programming tips are welcome as well.

(I know there are better languages to program in, i thought moving from freebasic to VB was a big step in the right direction despite it's draw backs though. I know C, C++ or C# would be optimal, but the amount of work and the learning curve are not something i wanted to get into for a casual project. My C skills are so rusty it's not funny, and I was adverse to using them in college to make the grades, not going to change my stripes now :cool: )

[mistaken]

I got a little more done, when i get back to the same point i was at in the last program i will post comparison screen shots.

Today's improvements:
*validate the textbox data :)
*properly define exit of all forms on close of visible from
*open a file in VB.net for random access read write and find length of file.


improvements this sets up: (in order most likely)
*save function
*list box population
*edit existing actor
*save existing actor

I think that's it, for proof of concept i think we are four medium steps away, if those things work, i will be able to add to, read from and modify a file in vb.net. process buttons, listboxes, text boxes, tab orders and move from form to form.

So here is your home work:

right now actors have the following attributes:
First Name
Last Name
Date of Birth
gender
Looks - their physical apperance
delivery - this is both timing and flow while speaking their lines
Acting - this is the ability to respond to the lines, the scene and the other actors appropriately
Emotion - this is how well the actor can use his dramatic range to connect directly with the audience
Fame - this is that slow building stat that lets you tell the veterans from the johny come latelys.
recent - young stars can be just as hot as those veterans, this stat builds reflects the most recent scenes.

what are you thoughts of the actor stats? are there any glaring ommisions? remember we want the high point, nuiance will come if we get version 1.0 finished.

[cappyboy]

The thing that comes to mind for me would be charisma. There are some folks who have totally inexplicable connections to the audience that don't seem to be reflected here. An example in my mind would be Drake Hogestyn as John Black on Days of Our Lives. For years, I've found Drake to be severely lacking on the Emotion front as you seem that have it explained. But yet he has a certain something that makes him connect so firmly with the audience that he's an audience favorite despite his stoic, at times almost leaden range. If the Emotion category is the sum total of an actor's ability to connect with the audience I don't know how someone like Hogestyn could ever be represented fully.

[mr_mitb]

Do u need help finding the actors stats and that? If so I could help with British actors mainly in Eastenders though.

[mistaken]

The thing that comes to mind for me would be charisma. There are some folks who have totally inexplicable connections to the audience that don't seem to be reflected here. An example in my mind would be Drake Hogestyn as John Black on Days of Our Lives. For years, I've found Drake to be severely lacking on the Emotion front as you seem that have it explained. But yet he has a certain something that makes him connect so firmly with the audience that he's an audience favorite despite his stoic, at times almost leaden range. If the Emotion category is the sum total of an actor's ability to connect with the audience I don't know how someone like Hogestyn could ever be represented fully.

I will think about charisma, in fact i need to think about dramatic range. at this point i was considering dramatic range as part of the acting stat. and charisma as part of the emotion stat. so...

(My wife tivo'd days for a long time, so i am familiar for better or worse with the gentleman you refer too. my exposure to soaps are Y&R from early 90's and days from 2003-2006)

John would be great looks (rugid in that older man kinda way) great delivery, not so much on the acting (thus the stoic person, sticking with in his range), great fame, usually great recent (the man always delivers) and great Emotion (like you say doesn't have the range but man does he connect with the fans anyway).

the above is not to discredit you suggestion at all, just so you know where i was coming from. and i will definatly consider charima and dramatic range for thier own stats.

Do u need help finding the actors stats and that? If so I could help with British actors mainly in Eastenders though.

I will take you up on that point once we get far enough to need more than test data (I'm going to make up actors for the test data, not because i want a cornelverse type system, but so that i can see what happens with out prejudice to what does happen)


Now a general question. In Wrestling you compete against other companies, for talent, for ratings, for tv time.

in soap opera's as long as your ratings are good, you don't really 'compete' with other shows, just for your own ratings, and actors don't move between shows that often, just on to other things (movies, prime time, stage, on with life) so what do you envision as the driving force of this game? how will you judge progress over time? i mean treading water to just keep up your ratings doesn't sound like that much fun.

This is the big question, I'm just not sure how to answer yet, i can have great data, and a great ratings system, but if there is nothing TO DO, then what is the motivation to keep playing?

some of my answers:
1)a ranking system, rated by viewership and another by number of day time emmy's
2)money, better ratings come with more money, better sets, better equipment, better actors to play your characters.
3)I know this is not realistic but possible the ability to start out on cable and move to network tv
4)again i know they hate to move soap opera times in the real world, but maybe once you make it to network, you compete for the best time slot, moves of course would only be considered once a year, to keep from moving back and forth during a stand off with another similarly rated show.


as always thank you so much for your help. and keep the ideas coming.

[mr_mitb]

Firstly some soaps do compete against each other for ratings, but I see what you are saying. I also think this could be extended to not just soaps, but sit-coms & dramas and other shows that follow storylines. There could then be competition on a channel for the prime time slots, and also more coverage. In one example something being moved from BBC Three to BBC1. The drama & sitcom idea doesnt need to be included until the final release of the game though, I just think it would make the game better but if anyone disagrees then fine. Also, Gender would be a good thing to include as would Fame. Some people are famous for other stuff but come into acting & soaps, such as Shane Richie coming into Eastenders.

[mistaken]

general update: :D


this is what i stated still need doing before i was ready to let anyone see it again.

improvements this sets up: (in order most likely)
*save function
*list box population
*edit existing actor
*save existing actor

Save function works like a charm, it should be very easy with the Microsoft IDE to quickly knock out each of the Editor Screens.

List box population was a little hairy at first. now i have it up and working. even updates after each add.

END OF PROGRESS, so now we come to opening an existing actor for editing, i think I've got the concept down. just take the reference number open up the actor file, load data into the text boxes. saving has a few curve balls, but for the most part i just need to change the record number, and over write the old record.

if everything continue apace I believe I can have both of those additions in place by tomorrow night.

Thank you as always for the support.

[mistaken]

ok so i'm quite happy with this. i learned even more about listboxes and classes, and how powerful they can be.

But down to the good stuff:
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/mistaken4now/soapland/MENU.jpg
You will notice the same bland menu screen to start out with.


http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/mistaken4now/soapland/ACTOR.jpg
but i think with vb the actor screen really stepped up a notch.

[Nevermore]

Mist, so you know, I am keeping an eye on this out of curiosity if nothing else and if any good ideas spring to mind, I'll help out as best I can (which probably won't be all that well :p).

One thing I will say, though, is I would change the stats slightly. Rather than having "Acting", I would have "Understanding of Character" or something similar. This is because I think it's more in-tune with what you are going for (i.e. behaving appropriately for the scene as well as delivering lines with emphasis/emotiong.

So, for instance, I would say Tom Hanks would have fantastic stats for "understanding of character" - he can play any character well and always seems to give them a complex/believable personality. However, I think his stats for "delivery" and particularly "emotion" would be far lower. Why? 'Cos I'm not sure I can think of many of his scenes where his timing and sense of feeling was really stand-out (there are a few, though).

Conversely, someone like Robert De Niro would have skills in delivery (and emotion) beyond belief. He's absolutley awesome and can convey any emotion extremely believably. However, his "understanding of character" stat would be far lower because:

He can only really play one rol (the intelligent hard-ass with a slightly psychopathic edge)
This leads to him sometimes not fitting a particular scene.


Just my opinion. I may come up with other suggestions in the future. Feel free to disregard this or any other ;).

Quote The Raven
Nevermore

[cappyboy]

You know, Nev, I like how you're thinking here. The understanding of character would explain why Peter Reckell makes so much better a Bo Brady than Robert Kelker-Kelly ever did. RKK always seemed like he was trying to be bigger and grander than the blue-collar nature of the role where Reckell can carry the fire and grit it takes to bring Bo to life.

I could also see where comic timing might be a useful category. Consider someone like Steve Blackwood as Bart on Days of Our Lives or Kathleen Noone on Passions as Edna Wallace. You can debate whether they brought much to the table in the categories Mistaken has. But it doesn't seem deniable that they were highly adept at lightening the mood with their wacky characters.

[Steeldogfan]

Mist, so you know, I am keeping an eye on this out of curiosity if nothing else and if any good ideas spring to mind, I'll help out as best I can (which probably won't be all that well :p).

One thing I will say, though, is I would change the stats slightly. Rather than having "Acting", I would have "Understanding of Character" or something similar. This is because I think it's more in-tune with what you are going for (i.e. behaving appropriately for the scene as well as delivering lines with emphasis/emotiong.

So, for instance, I would say Tom Hanks would have fantastic stats for "understanding of character" - he can play any character well and always seems to give them a complex/believable personality. However, I think his stats for "delivery" and particularly "emotion" would be far lower. Why? 'Cos I'm not sure I can think of many of his scenes where his timing and sense of feeling was really stand-out (there are a few, though).

Conversely, someone like Robert De Niro would have skills in delivery (and emotion) beyond belief. He's absolutley awesome and can convey any emotion extremely believably. However, his "understanding of character" stat would be far lower because:

He can only really play one rol (the intelligent hard-ass with a slightly psychopathic edge)
This leads to him sometimes not fitting a particular scene.


Just my opinion. I may come up with other suggestions in the future. Feel free to disregard this or any other ;).

Quote The Raven
Nevermore

This is so true. An actor's understanding and ability to play the role are essential to making a good soap a great soap. I would like to also push this. Many times, we see soap stars go on to big budget movies and become big stars, ie Meg Ryan. There should be a factor reguarding the star's potential to move on past soaps and into movies. Just thinking.

[mistaken]

Because ekmo asked, here's where we stand. I'm lost, but still working. as for the actor stat discussion i will revisit all request once i get basic game mechanics down. I think I'm going to deep to fast, i need to build basic, FUN, and inviting game mechanics before we collectively nit pick this into vaporware. in fact we may actually loose stats this week end, as I struggle to come up with the basics of play.

(for simplicity actors may disappear into characters, as I see hiring and firing as the cast directors jobs, and with that would go fame. and as story line has it's own build recent may also disappear. the theory behind this is the less moving parts the easier it will be to get my hands around the game mechanics. once we have a game to discuss, then we can tweak it and add things back in.)



Originally Posted by EkmO
Hows the game going?


honestly.

I finished my proof of concept so i'm pretty sure i can do just about anything i want in vb.net, now i need to work on the game itself.

I am having trouble making it fun, just in theory.

right now i'm trying to work out the flow of the game so i can start to think about where the stat's go and how they fit together, so i can determine if i have, enough/to many/to few.

Soap opera's tell a story, and i'm having trouble, one seeing how i am going to convey that story, and two rate that story. grading a scene based on some stats is one thing, but how it fits into one story, and in truth with a soap opera the over all story is entirly another thing.

so I'm trying to go back to basics. trying to walk through how i would run a 4 person story line, with all scenes being either 1 or 2 person scenes.

the first problem i ran into and am working on is for lack of a better term the face/heel dilemma.

to illustrate :

Face tells Heel a lie (crowd buy's this as in character, face trying to hide something from heel and some what furthers the drama and entertainment)

Heel tells Face a lie (crowd buy's this as in character, hell is out to get face, really furthers the drama and believability)

Face tells Face a lie (crowd rejects this as out of character, hurts believability and entertainment)

Heel tells Heel a lie (Crowd rejects this a unnecessary, hurts drama and entertainment) does not hurt believability as lieing is part of the Heel persona

but there is a problem with this, it's just not true, it's not so cut and dry and even as i want the first run to be basic, it just won't be fun when you think you've put together the perfect story but you violate all of my preset stereo types and get torn apart for it.

so the basic outline I think I'm working from


pick Location
pick story line if applicable
pick 1 or 2 person
pick action
ask if another action takes place, repeat until no


ie coffe house:
<char 2 unrequited love>
char 1 and char 2 have a conversation
char 1 tells char 2 a secret
char 2 flirts with char 1
char 1 ignores char 2
char 2 gets mad at char 1
char 1 storms off

each action would be graded, then the scene would be graded.

the grade would affect
*the episode
*the story line
*the individual characters
*the over all show

I still have not hit on the best idea, but currently the over all grading is some interaction with drama/entertainment/believability

grading over time would be subjective that is, your improvement is based on what the audience expects, and what the audience expects is based one what they have seen recently. so no 100% in fact while there maybe some upper bound, where a good show is will change with the industry and how well you do with in it over time.

as grand as that all sounds, I'm having a hard time seeing any of it as fun. which is not very motivating to get it programmed.

I have worked two 14 hour days back to back, so hopefully I will get some time to sit down with pencil and paper this weekend and see if i can sim a test story line. with some equations. if that works then I'll work on getting that coded.

once that is coded i will send it over and you will actually have something to test, and give your feed back on.

as always your suggestions, comments and thought are welcomed and appreciated.

Thank you for your time.

Kevin


on top of all that i still have no idea how to structure the show around time, as soaps have tons of short snippet cuts, and suspense building features my system just does not simulate. and all of those actions would need to be grouped/spread out through out a show. I really am struggling, I am also thinking of tivoing days just to see if i can get some random inspiration.

[cappyboy]

Because ekmo asked, here's where we stand. I'm lost, but still working. as for the actor stat discussion i will revisit all request once i get basic game mechanics down. I think I'm going to deep to fast, i need to build basic, FUN, and inviting game mechanics before we collectively nit pick this into vaporware. in fact we may actually loose stats this week end, as I struggle to come up with the basics of play.



I hear this and I agree wholeheartedly. The first thing is to come up with a good little game that covers the basics. This is part of why I don't play Hollywood Mogul 3 with anywhere near the regularity I did 2. They overexpanded the game and drowned the player in minuatae while loosing touch with the basics. The basics have to come first if we're to get something playworthy. Going over the details may be fun but they can wait. I'd imagine a good many of us played Promotion Wars before crossing over the the EWR and now TEW series. Or started football management with the original Madden before going on to games like Total Pro or Bowl Bound. That's where we are now. That foundational game. Let's get that first and then see where growth can occur.

[Jouzy]

Whilst I think that understanding of character is important, I think the best thing right now is to stay basic and not delve too deeply into things. The idea looks great and if we take EW series as an example, that hardly had the best starting point. Start simple and if you then figure ways to make it more complex - ie. a better simulation of real life - then go for it, but not right off the bat.

Good luck and it looks promising.

[mistaken]

I really didn't think I was going to get it started, let alone finished.

what do i mean by finished? probably not what you think.

actions, i finished actions.

the frame work now allows for you to program from one to as many as i decide is necessary at some latter point, characters to be involved in each action. and then to grade each character.

I still need to program the grading of the action. then the saving of the action, and it spirals out of control from there. Oh and I took a huge step backward, it's all hard coded and in free basic. why you ask, because half the crap is pointers, and i needed to work it all out in a language i knew before trying to move it into vb.net.

My quick and dirty laundry list, of things to do.

1)finish grading the action
2)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for characters (actors are dead at this point, a character is a reference number, a name and 4 stats)
3)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for actions
4) rewrite the test program to pull from the save files instead of the hard coded data.
5) add scenes and scene grading
6) release alpha .1

what should you expect from alpha .1, not to much. the ability to add characters, actions and scenes in a dos prompt environment.

the ability to run the scene and have it graded.

sound like fun? no i didn't think so, but it's the guts of the system everything else has to be built off of, and gives me hope that the rest of this can be constructed.

define.bi

Type actor
num as integer
nam as string * 30
act as integer
del as integer
emo as integer
lok as integer
end type

'-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
type action
num as integer
nam as string * 20
ps as string * 100 'print string will need to be parsed
num_acts as integer
end type

type action_rating
action_num as integer
actor_num as integer
actor_pos as integer 'which part the actor is playing
actor_part as integer '1 major, 2 minor, 3 bit role does not affect rating
pri_rate as integer 'primary rating, currently 1 - act, 2 - del, 3 - emo, 4 - lok
sec_rate as integer 'secondary rating, same as above
end type
'-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

type current_action
action_num as integer 'action to be prefomed
c_action as action ptr 'pointer to the action we set up
c_actor as action_rating ptr 'pointer to the fist action_rating in the array
End type

'-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
type save_action
num as integer
scene_num as integer
action_num as integer
fin_rat as integer
end type

type save_action_rating
sav_action_num as integer
actor_num as integer
actor_pos as integer
actor_part as integer
pri_rate as integer
sec_rate as integer
end type


test.bas

#include once "C:\FreeBasic\progs\soapland\basics\define.bi"
randomize timer

declare sub parse_string(tp as string, n as integer, nms() as action_rating, acs() as actor)
declare sub rate_action(ca as current_action, acs() as actor)


dim actors(1) as actor
dim as action_rating cra()
dim will_do as action
dim c_act as current_action

actors(0).num = 1:actors(0).nam = "maria":actors(0).act = 500:actors(0).del = 500:actors(0).emo =500:actors(0).lok = 500
actors(1).num = 2:actors(1).nam = "pablo":actors(1).act = 500:actors(1).del =500:actors(1).emo=500:actors(1).lok=500

will_do.num = 1
will_do.nam = "conversation"
will_do.ps = "*P1* had a conversation with *P2*."
will_do.num_acts = 2

redim cra(will_do.num_acts - 1)
cra(0).action_num = will_do.num
cra(0).actor_num = actors(0).num
cra(0).actor_part = 1
cra(0).pri_rate = 2
cra(0).sec_rate = 1

cra(1).action_num = will_do.num
cra(1).actor_num = actors(1).num
cra(1).actor_part = 1
cra(1).pri_rate = 2
cra(1).sec_rate = 1

c_act.action_num = will_do.num
c_act.c_action = @will_do
c_act.c_actor = @cra(0)

parse_string(will_do.ps, will_do.num_acts, cra(), actors())
rate_action(c_act, actors())

sleep


sub parse_string(tp as string, n as integer, nms() as action_rating, acs() as actor)
dim slen as integer
dim cs as string
dim p as integer
dim i as integer
dim nam as string

cs = tp
slen = len(cs)
for i = 1 to n
nam = acs(nms(i-1).actor_num-1).nam ' needs to be replaced with funciton that returns based on actor num
do
p = instr(cs,"*P"& i &"*")
if p then
cs = left(cs,p-1) & nam & right(cs,slen - (p+3))
end if
slen = len(cs)
loop until p = 0
next i
print cs
end sub

sub rate_action(ca as current_action, acs() as actor)
dim as integer n, i, temp, an
dim as integer pr, se 'hold the primary attribute and the secondary atribute
dim as integer atc 'atribute count either 2 or 3 depending on secondary atribute
dim as integer cc 'count the number of major or minor characters in the scene
dim as string nam 'to hold workers name
n = ca.c_action->num_acts
dim p(n - 1) as integer
dim s(n - 1) as integer
dim ts(n - 1) as integer

for i = 1 to n
an = (@ca.c_actor[i-1])->actor_num
nam = acs(an-1).nam

temp = (@ca.c_actor[i-1])->pri_rate
select case temp
case 1
pr = acs(an-1).act
case 2
pr = acs(an-1).del
case 3
pr = acs(an-1).emo
case 4
pr = acs(an-1).lok
end select

atc = 1
temp = (@ca.c_actor[i-1])->sec_rate
select case temp
case 1
se = acs(an-1).act
case 2
se = acs(an-1).del
case 3
se = acs(an-1).emo
case 4
se = acs(an-1).lok
case else
se = 0
atc = 0
end select

temp = 1000 - pr
p(i-1) = pr - ((temp) / 2 * rnd()) + (temp /4)
print p(i-1)

if atc <> 0 then
temp = 1000 - se
s(i-1) = se - ((temp) / 2 * rnd()) + (temp /4)
print s(i-1)
end if

if atc = 0 then
ts(i-1) = p(i-1)
else
ts(i-1) = (p(i-1)/3) * 2 + (s(i-1)/3)
end if
print nam & " Scored : " & ts(i-1)
print
next i
end sub


if you care to see what it does it's written in free basic 18.5

[mr_mitb]

I am really exited about this game and was just wondering if there was anything I could do to help that isn't programming based?

[mistaken]

I am really exited about this game and was just wondering if there was anything I could do to help that isn't programming based?

When we get to step 6, feed back on the algorithm will be much appreciated. but it will require much patience to use, as every thing will be text menus and keyboard driven.

[BluePrint83]

I'd be interested in this game. Sounds like alot of fun. Would this be a free game like EWR was or cost money?

[mistaken]

I'd be interested in this game. Sounds like alot of fun. Would this be a free game like EWR was or cost money?

money? I'm sorry i don't understand that word. free? not familiar with that word either. I will be paying all up front costs in blood sweat and tears, (mostly migraine induced tears) then those people brave enough tread the waters ways of my payment, and test the product will probably curse my name and programing skills. and hopefully something playable will emerge from this crucible, instead of it boiling away into vaporware.

But i guess a straight answer to your question would be: It's free, no way I'd post the code to something you would be paying for :) . As well the game in no way represents the programing talent of the Grey Dog developers. It's just one step above the fan fiction you find on any of the dynasty pages, my fan fiction just might be interactive.

[mistaken]

1)finish grading the action
2)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for characters (actors are dead at this point, a character is a reference number, a name and 4 stats)
3)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for actions
4) rewrite the test program to pull from the save files instead of the hard coded data.
5) add scenes and scene grading
6) release alpha .1


The easy two are done, there is now a menu screen for adding new characters, and the action is now graded down into drama, believability and entertainment. as well i have the concept for how a scene will be graded from the separate action.

I only have 4 left on the original list, but 4 and 5 are pretty major so here is the game plan for 4.

4)
a. write system for creating a 'live action' (actions with workers inserted so they can be run)
b. a rewrite of the test program to take the 'live actions' run them against the saved actions and actors tables and grade them.
c. save said grades to action save files for latter uses as part of grading a scene.

and for 5.

5)
a. finish designing scene types.
b. put in add screen for scenes (simply an additonal screen that puts 'live actions' in a specific order) and allow for multiple screens
c. put the grade scene functions in place


with the completion of steps 1 and two, I am adding 3 more steps, that will make up the first part of alpha .2

7) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
8) add character development to the system
9) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.

[mistaken]

1)finish grading the action
2)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for characters (actors are dead at this point, a character is a reference number, a name and 4 stats)
3)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for actions

4)
a. write system for creating a 'live action' (actions with workers inserted so they can be run)
b. a rewrite of the test program to take the 'live actions' run them against the saved actions and actors tables and grade them.
c. save said grades to action save files for latter uses as part of grading a scene.

5)
a. finish designing scene types.
b. put in add screen for scenes (simply an additonal screen that puts 'live actions' in a specific order) and allow for multiple screens
c. put the grade scene functions in place

6) release alpha .1
7) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
8) add character development to the system
9) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.


so i knocked off one more step tonight, well at least i hope so, when i start on step 4 and need to pull the saved data back up from steps 2 & 3, we'll see if the right data got saved into those files.

Step 3 was a little more complex than i first thought it would be. i coded it up front so that it can handle as many or as few characters as you would like to add to the action, and the corresponding ratings for each character in the action.

this just meant some extra time making sure my loops were doing exactly what i wanted them to. I am very happy to be seeing progress, i will be slightly embarrassed when my first alpha is in dos, but if the mechanics are right then it should only be a matter of translating the system over to something prettier.

Thanks everyone for the support, hopefully i am moving full steam ahead.

[mistaken]

a question for those willing to test my dos alpha.

when adding an action, lets say a 2 person conversation.

your going to need to do three things

1) pick conversation from a list of actions
2) pick the first character
3) pick the second character

in dos list are nasty thing especially when there are lost of options. so....
do you want:

1) a big long list that requires you to scroll through the hole thing before it prompts you for your number entery

or

2) 15 or so on the screen with the prompt at the bottom willing to take you answer, or a command to move forward in the list (if i'm feeling nice i could add backward in the list too)

now i know my immediate answer as the player is 2, but 1 is far quicker to code, I don't really have a preference one way or the other. But if one make the game unbearable then 2 is worth the effort. if you can live with 1 for the alpha, then i can move on to other steps.

A response from 2 or 3 people would be wonderful, so i know i've got some consensus.

and while I'm asking for help, any ideas where i should put this file up to share it? or should i just email it, the dos program is massive! its almost 60 Kb :)

As always thank you for the support and ideas.

[mr_mitb]

I would prefer 1 anyway, and if it's easier you should go for that one. Start simple and if it's a success keep going with it & improve.

[cappyboy]

I would prefer 1 anyway, and if it's easier you should go for that one. Start simple and if it's a success keep going with it & improve.

I'd agree that the initial build should probably be 1. 2 is probably the better answer for the long haul. But for right now with just getting off the ground, don't make things too awful hard on yourself. Get the framework down and you can build on it from there.

[iceman]

I've been following this from the start and while I don't know nothing about programming, it looks like a fun game to play.

Is there anyway someone from GDS will help you with it? Or perhaps offer some support?

[mistaken]

I've been following this from the start and while I don't know nothing about programming, it looks like a fun game to play.

Is there anyway someone from GDS will help you with it? Or perhaps offer some support?

I'm sure that the Staff of GDS is aware of my efforts.

And I am assuming since they haven't locked this thread or warned me, that they are at least passively accepting of the efforts. Which in and of itself is support, as they could wish me the best of luck, but ask me to find a more appropriate site for my project.

As for Direct support, helping a guy messing around with a soap opera simulator that has not even reached an alpha stage would be a less than profitable use of their resources. And there is always the chance that Adam is setting back, drinking hot coco and planning "Total Extreme SoapSuds: The Rise of Adams Evil Twin"

really though, how am i supposed to learn if they tell me how to do it all? :D

Hopefully they are sitting back taking a wait and see attitude, and if i produce a fun game worth playing, maybe they will offer a pointer or two where needed as I improve the software.

Either way all i can do is thank them for Humoring me, while I try to work out this project.

[mistaken]

1)finish grading the action
2)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for characters (actors are dead at this point, a character is a reference number, a name and 4 stats)
3)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for actions

4)
a. write system for creating a 'live action' (actions with workers inserted so they can be run) (under way)
b. a rewrite of the test program to take the 'live actions' run them against the saved actions and actors tables and grade them.
c. save said grades to action save files for latter uses as part of grading a scene.

5)
a. finish designing scene types.
b. put in add screen for scenes (simply an additonal screen that puts 'live actions' in a specific order) and allow for multiple scenes
c. put the grade scene functions in place

6) release alpha .1
7) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
8) add character development to the system
9) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
10) fix *pit fall alert (does not check to make sure you have enough characters to fill the action)*


It doesn't look like much, half of the first part of the next step and what amounts to two menu screens. but it was almost 300 lines of code (about equal to all of Tuesday and Wednesday night's work. and to be honest a lot harder since we got back into the loop structures for dealing with the differing number of actors per action.

step 4-a, is about half way or better done. you can select a scene to add an action to (step 5, of course this meant i had to let you creat a scene), then select an action and the appropriate number of actors to fill the scene. *pit fall alert (does not check to make sure you have enough characters to fill the action)*, but i still need to do the approval screen and then the save process.

If all goes well tomorrow night I am hoping to finish up step 4. I'd love to say i could make it to the alpha, but i don't want to get ahead of my self. It's been 5 days, 4 of which i have made significant progress and the 5th doesn't count as i was unavailable.

Who wants to test the alpha? (Ekmo is on the list) and what is your preferred method of delivery?

Thank you all, and never hesitate to leave an idea, even if it is way beyond the scope of the current project, you never know what could shape future enhancements.

[mr_mitb]

I would like to test the game also.

My only real idea for making the game more fun, is to compete against shows on your channel/station for the better time slots, and then against other channels for viewers. Not sure how & if that is possible, but that's my only idea that I thing is quite good.

[Steeldogfan]

Put me down as a tester as well. Disc would be great, but if it is easier, I can go direct download. Just let me know.

[cappyboy]

How soon would you be looking for folks to start with the testing? I have a family reunion trip in about a month's time. If you've got something testable now or you can wait on me until after Father's Day, I'd be more than happy to help. The closer to the trip testing would start the less sure I am being able to test at this time.

[mistaken]

I would like to test the game also.

My only real idea for making the game more fun, is to compete against shows on your channel/station for the better time slots, and then against other channels for viewers. Not sure how & if that is possible, but that's my only idea that I thing is quite good.

Put me down as a tester as well. Disc would be great, but if it is easier, I can go direct download. Just let me know.

How soon would you be looking for folks to start with the testing? I have a family reunion trip in about a month's time. If you've got something testable now or you can wait on me until after Father's Day, I'd be more than happy to help. The closer to the trip testing would start the less sure I am being able to test at this time.

unless you object email is probably easiest. the file will probably be about 100K, the size of a single medium sized picture file. (pm your email address if you prefer i use one other than in your profile)

as for when, I'd really like to send it out tomorrow if i finish steps 4 and 5. and get some feed back on the rating system. if you are not familiar with file systems, and setting up folders let me know, as right now the program will have to have specific folders and folder locations set up for the save data. if your not available to test it, no problem, i'll just keep you on the mailing list and as you get the time try the latest build.

if I get to far ahead of myself, and really feel adventerous, i will see if i can set up ubuntu's latest build with WAMP on my dummy box, and try to host my own site. (down side no static ip address leaves the site hopping around every few days. and lack of ubuntu knowledge always seems to get me in way over my head.)

[mr_mitb]

Yeah thats fine by me, emailing that is. One slight problem I am going away for 4 days on Tuesday, I will give it a go before then, but thought I would let you know.

[mistaken]

Yeah thats fine by me, emailing that is. One slight problem I am going away for 4 days on Tuesday, I will give it a go before then, but thought I would let you know.

not a problem at all, there is actually a reason i want to release the Alpha .1 or maybe even .15 by Saturday. My wife will be home for a whole week next week, so I probably won't be around or programing on this much at all. So if i can get to a good pausing point, get some feed back, then by a week from Sunday I can start to code what ever changes the alpha needs and start to work out the next set of features to add.

[cappyboy]

unless you object email is probably easiest. the file will probably be about 100K, the size of a single medium sized picture file. (pm your email address if you prefer i use one other than in your profile)

as for when, I'd really like to send it out tomorrow if i finish steps 4 and 5. and get some feed back on the rating system. if you are not familiar with file systems, and setting up folders let me know, as right now the program will have to have specific folders and folder locations set up for the save data. if your not available to test it, no problem, i'll just keep you on the mailing list and as you get the time try the latest build.


Well then, I should be able to help you out without issue. Let me see if I have one on file in my profile. It's been a while since that mattered so I don't remember if I do or not.

[mistaken]

1)finish grading the action
2)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for characters (actors are dead at this point, a character is a reference number, a name and 4 stats)
3)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for actions

4)
a. write system for creating a 'live action' (actions with workers inserted so they can be run)
b. a rewrite of the test program to take the 'live actions' run them against the saved actions and actors tables and grade them.
c. save said grades to action save files for latter uses as part of grading a scene.

5)
a. finish designing scene types.
b. put in add screen for scenes (simply an additonal screen that puts 'live actions' in a specific order) and allow for multiple scenes
c. put the grade scene functions in place
d. save the graded scene

6) release alpha .1
a)view actor stats
b)view stats for action


7) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
8) add character development to the system
9) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
10) *BUG* *pit fall alert (does not check to make sure you have enough characters to fill the action)*
11) move all save actions to functions
12) *BUG*
a) you can try to add actions to a scene with no actors.
b)you can try to run a scene with no actions.
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.



so i did quite a lot tonight, though much of it was similar, i coded over 600 lines to finish up 4.a and 4.b. i spent over an hour hunting down one really stupid logic error.

Saving the results should not be that hard. but the last major hurdle before I begin cleaning up and looking at emailing out the alpha is grading the scene. I have a concept in mind, but right now your score is a thee part number, drama, believability and entertainment. I'm not sure how I want to get that down to a grade, or if i even do? to be honest I think that Entertainment is the score (i mean isn't that the point of any show, to entertain) and drama and believability would be out there for building/ hurting a story line as we begin to build those in.

your thoughts? and you are welcome to reserve judgment until you've seen the program.

Thank you all, and have a great night tomorrow I should finish Alpha .1 though after that i have to clean the house for my wife's arrival.

[mistaken]

1)finish grading the action
2)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for characters (actors are dead at this point, a character is a reference number, a name and 4 stats)
3)knock up a quick and dirty add screen for actions

4)
a. write system for creating a 'live action' (actions with workers inserted so they can be run)
b. a rewrite of the test program to take the 'live actions' run them against the saved actions and actors tables and grade them.
c. save said grades to action save files for latter uses as part of grading a scene.

5)
a. finish designing scene types.
b. put in add screen for scenes (simply an additonal screen that puts 'live actions' in a specific order) and allow for multiple scenes
c. put the grade scene functions in place
d. save the graded scene

6) release alpha .1
a)view actor stats
b)view stats for action


7) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
8) add character development to the system
9) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
10) *BUG* *pit fall alert (does not check to make sure you have enough characters to fill the action)*
11) move all save actions to functions
12) *BUG*
a) you can try to add actions to a scene with no actors.
b)you can try to run a scene with no actions.
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.



And the Alpha is out Mr_mitb, pm your e-mail address and i will send it along. :cool:

It was a day of bug hunting, some i fixed, others as you can see have been added to the to-do list.

now off to clean and prepare for the wifes arrival

[cappyboy]

You know, I haven't used the DOS prompt in a long time. I've been having trouble figuring out how to get at the execute file and renaming it so it's usable.

[mistaken]

You know, I haven't used the DOS prompt in a long time. I've been having trouble figuring out how to get at the execute file and renaming it so it's usable.


If file extensions are hidden you will not see the .db and thus you can't change it to a .exe

here are the steps for anyone who may need to unhide file extensions.

(inside of a folder containing the file we're dealing with)
on the menu bar, click tools -> folder options -> a new window will open choose the view tab. -> uncheck the box that says hide file extensions for known file types. (about half way down)

once you've changed the .db to .exe you may want to reset this toggle, as it does affect some other process you may be used to behaving differently when you use them. but it will not harm your system

[cappyboy]

Had some ideas earlier this morning for future stages of the games that might be helpful when the time comes for them.

1: When you start defining pre-set scenes, don't forget the flashbacks. They can play a key role in storylines. Use too many and the established viewers get restless because of the story's going so slow. Use too few you might not be able to get newer viewers up to speed and be able to hold their interest. Flashbacks can help keep characters in the audience's mind while the actors are on vacation or off-screen for contract reasons. They can be used as a means of deferring payroll when the budget is tight.

2: We should define what the passage of time is like on the show. On some soaps, an episode can be the events of the character's day or even week. Whereas on others one day can take up a whole week of air time.

3: Viewer complaints. If the pacing of storylines starts to become an issue, we should hear about it from the fans. If we threaten a beloved character in a storyline we should hear about it.

4: Emergency edits: On Days Of Our Lives they wanted to kill off Marlena 25 years ago as part of a serial killer storyline. But her character was so popular viewers got restless and flooded the producers with complaints. So as a last minute move, they shifted Marlena's bad-seed sister into her place in the story and she died instead. Later becoming the namesake for the next generation's schemer in Sami.

[mistaken]

Been playing around some with the alpha since getting back from lunch at my sister's and two things have really jumped out at me.

As I add scenes and test them out, at moments I haven't been able to pick out, the names of my old scenes will be replaced with with random symbols like gender signs and smiley faces. Though I had it narrowed down to when I restart the alpha after having it closed but further experimentation has suggested that not to be the case.

Also it appears that if I try to run pre-established scenes several times in a row without creating something new, it will suddenly forget what I'm doing and ask which scene I want to add actions to. One scene is up to 135 actions and another up to 147. The vast majority of which are excess additions caught in a loop. I have yet to intentionally do a scene that had more than two at actions at a time.

first know bug, as soon as i get a chance I will work on isolating what is causing it.

[mr_mitb]

I can't seem to get the game to work and I have no idea why.

[EkmO]

My thoughts

Creating An Actor
Firstly i would proger skills being 0-100, Not to 1000. Im not to sure what you mean by delivery so people who play the game might not be either.

When i go to view a charactor, I tried typing in his name but it didnt work so how would i go about that?

Also could you add a button to go back to the menu.

Action Menu

For this menu, Is it possible to extend the amount of actors to maybe 20, As say if we had a pub brawl we would have more than ten people in the pub. And the same with view actyion, How do i view it?

[EkmO]

Also adding a ticm box which could add to their ratings could be good, Like

High Spots
Love for the business

and etc, Also im pretty good at GFX if you need any designing for the game :)

[BluePrint83]

How do you play this?

[mistaken]

How do you play this?

? it's still in development. there are 4 alpha testers, testing but i doubt they'd call it play since it has almost no point, and a major bug at this time.

if this is a more philosophical question, then it's a great one. the 'play' will be seeing if you can script out screens and story lines to out do yourself and your competition to draw in more viewers. by balancing the skills of your actors against the available selection of actions, to deliver both dramatic and entertaining scenes with out destroying believability.


to the testers, my wife drives out again on Sunday, so look for a bug fix and maybe a feature or two to be added in a release late Sunday night.

[cappyboy]

to the testers, my wife drives out again on Sunday, so look for a bug fix and maybe a feature or two to be added in a release late Sunday night.

Hey man, sounds promising. Been at least one other task I've been wanting to get done with the current version. But rough work days this week have kept me from it. Hopefully this being Friday, I can get it done tonight.

[mistaken]

steps 1 - 6

*find and fix run scene bug*
*add exit feature to functions lacking a way to exit with out executing*
*add parsed description to add action to scene menu, rather than just the plane phrase so you know the who not just the what*


7) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
8) add character development to the system
9) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
10) *BUG* *pit fall alert (does not check to make sure you have enough characters to fill the action)*
11) move all save actions to functions
12) *BUG*
a) you can try to add actions to a scene with no actors.
b)you can try to run a scene with no actions.
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.



ok, so I'm in a funk because my wife will be gone at least 6 more weeks, damn this soft economy!

as for the bug messing up the scene file, i found that, and should be reprimanded for my sloppy coding! i cut and pasted the save code, but did not change the variable names, so junk was being saved.

hopefully as i update this post through out the day you will see the other two stared items get completed and then i will decide where to go next.

Testers keep up the solid feed back, if i get everything on my list done, i will get an updated exe, and test data file out to you.

[mistaken]

My thoughts

Creating An Actor
Firstly i would proger skills being 0-100, Not to 1000. Im not to sure what you mean by delivery so people who play the game might not be either.

When i go to view a charactor, I tried typing in his name but it didnt work so how would i go about that?

Also could you add a button to go back to the menu.

Action Menu

For this menu, Is it possible to extend the amount of actors to maybe 20, As say if we had a pub brawl we would have more than ten people in the pub. And the same with view actyion, How do i view it?

0-100.0 or 0-1000 is the same thing, i could hide the signigicat digit, and in a full release probably will, but i wanted you as testers to be able to tell how much/little changing that last digit mattered when testing the system.

you view the character by typing in the number next to the name, but i should include an actual 0) exit at the bottom so you can exit with out out viewing anyone

as for the number of characters in one scene, there currently are no limits, simply in one action. the limit is arbitary and i can re assign at any time. but truth be told a 20 person brawl is not an action, it's the title of the scene make up of many smaller actions.

Also adding a ticm box which could add to their ratings could be good, Like

High Spots
Love for the business

and etc, Also im pretty good at GFX if you need any designing for the game :)

funny you should mention high spots, because i have been thinking about the grading of scenes and how they affect the story line, and particularly dramatic/entertaining/ or unbelievable events i think are those things that stand out in a person's mind, they are what the scene and story line should be building too.

how this will turn on in the end i am not yet certain, but i am definitely on that general path.

Hey man, sounds promising. Been at least one other task I've been wanting to get done with the current version. But rough work days this week have kept me from it. Hopefully this being Friday, I can get it done tonight.

did you find anything else? and suggestions for what i should add to the game for the second alpha release?

testers, once i have fixed the large bug, and some of the smaller annoyances you have pointed out, should i continue down my list, or is there something else you would like to see added first?

thank you again for the help

[Rathen4]

I'd be up for having a look at this.

fistingisfun@gmail.com :)

[cappyboy]

did you find anything else? and suggestions for what i should add to the game for the second alpha release?

testers, once i have fixed the large bug, and some of the smaller annoyances you have pointed out, should i continue down my list, or is there something else you would like to see added first?

thank you again for the help

No. Can't say I did. Finally managed that last experiment this morning and nothing. Wanted to run a scene that was actually designed for more than two actions. The scene ran smoothly in my trials. Nothing really odd that we didn't know about. Just the third action (which I created new) getting kicked over into the pre-existing scenes we already knew were buggy. Which based on my prior bug report was to be expected.

[W3LSHY]

I'd be up for having a look at this :)

Ditto, i've been away for a while and haven't managed to catch up with this untill now, gutted i missed the chance to be a tester lol :(. Any chance you could still send it my way? Thanks, welshi@live.co.uk ;)

[mistaken]

steps 1 - 6

*find and fix run scene bug*
*add exit feature to functions lacking a way to exit with out executing*

view character
view action
add action to scene
run scene

*add parsed description to add action to scene menu, rather than just the plane action name so you know the who not just the what*
as a side note i also left in the action name so that it is now in the format.
name:- parsed string


7) *BUG* *can add same actor to an action more than once*
8) *BUG*
a) you can try to add actions to a scene with no actors.
b)you can try to run a scene with no actions.

release alpha .11 (Sunday evening maybe)

9) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
10) add character development to the system
11) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
12) move all save actions to functions
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.



Cappy thanks for the catch, on the first major bug!

Ditto, i've been away for a while and haven't managed to catch up with this untill now, gutted i missed the chance to be a tester lol :(. Any chance you could still send it my way? Thanks, welshi@live.co.uk ;)

I'd be up for having a look at this.

fistingisfun@gmail.com :)


Rathen4 & W3lshy I will add you to the list with the next release.

[sprinklefurball]

Cappy thanks for the catch, on the first major bug!






Rathen4 & W3lshy I will add you to the list with the next release.
room for one more?
justinrotnluk@gmail.com

[mistaken]

steps 1 - 8

9) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
10) add character development to the system
11) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
12) move all save actions to functions
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.



Alpha .11 has gone out, please find new ways to break it. then come back here and let me know how you did it.

secondly let me know the best way to improve it, until then I will continue to brain storm about character development and storyline advancement. oh and continue to add the above features.

step 9 will get bullet points tomorrow night hopefully, and i will begin work on them, it may take a while as i would also like to add a system for allowing you to tell me where you want the files saved to and what folder you want the permanent files pulled from, so that you can manipulate multiple databases, and saved games.

it is important to do this soon so that there will not have to be a major coding project latter to add these features in to an established system.

but if you can think of any other features that would be usefull this early on, let me know so i can get them added to the list.

[cappyboy]

Cappy thanks for the catch, on the first major bug!


Glad to help man. Look forward to see what will come with the next edition

[mistaken]

so in a scene (with more than 5 actions)

i want to talk about drama vs believability

if a scene scores :
1500 drama (average)
&
300 Believability (average)
it would have
1200 entertanment

but if there was a moment that was more dramatic than the rest then you would probably be willing to say that the scene moved the story line forward. but how much would depend on how unbelievable the scene as a whole was.

so i am saying take the highest & lowest Drama out of the scene average
and the highest & lowest believability scores out of the average

then compare Da & Dna (drama average & drama new average)
as well do the sambe with belivability Ba & Bna

so Dna - DA is either higher/lower or about the same = DD
and Bna - Ba is either higher/lower or about the same = DB

so DD+ is the difference yields positive
DD- us the difference yields negative
DD the difference was about the same

we are not talking absolute math equations here about may be 0 difference or it may be a small difference, how small is something play balancing will have to work out.

If DD+ and DB+ then their was a dramatic moment, but it seemed unbelievable the unbelievability may over ride any positive effects of the dramatic moment

If DD+ and DB then their was a distinctly dramatic moment, this would further the story line

If DD+ and DB- then thier was a distinctly dramactic moment, but it highlighted how unbelievable the rest of the scene was, depending on the diffrence this may actually hurt the story line.

If DD then no matter how DB varries there was dramatic moment this scene will neither hurt nor further the story line.

Ff DD- and DB+ then you've done a bad thing, there was a week link in this scene and a moment that was so unbelievable it ruined strength of the rest of the scene, this will hurt the story line

If DD- and DB then you've run a strong scene that was evenly believable, it will not help or hurt you scene

if DD- and DB- you had one moment that weighted on the drama and believability of the scene but the scene it self was very stong, this scene will affect your story line. positive or negative affect will be based upon the current Drama & believability scores of your story line.


if you followed this, I'd love your comments/thoughts/opinions.

Does this sound like a logical way to grade scenes into story lines?

do you have a better idea?

I know Story lines are several steps away, but i think it is important to hash through how they are going to work so I have an idea of where we are headed, and you have the ability to head me off at the pass if i am going the wrong direction before i put a lot of effort into a system that was poorly thought out to begin with.

home work for the alpha testers. when should Characters stats improve? and by how much? (that is how often and what should triger the change in stats, and can stats get worse? if you botch a scene and beat yourself up, you might grow more tentative and regress rather than improve. or is life always a growth process? you never move back wards.)

thank you for the help. and one last dumb question, any one know a good soap opera site ? (I think every one involved is male i could be wrong, but that is my guess. a female perspective might be of some use and posting on a fan forum might draw a fresh perspective. just a thought)

ONE MORE QUESTION:
this is important in the short term as it is what i am coding right now. I am putting in the ability to tell the program where you want the soapland folder to be. I can build in the funcitons so that you have to navigate to an existing location so that i can be certain the path exists. or i can trust you to enter the path ie "C:\fun with names\If only\not now\soapland". which do your prefer (all save files/folders/data sets will be assumed to be within the soapland folder)

[cappyboy]

so in a scene (with more than 5 actions)

i want to talk about drama vs believability

if a scene scores :
1500 drama (average)
&
300 Believability (average)
it would have
1200 entertanment

but if there was a moment that was more dramatic than the rest then you would probably be willing to say that the scene moved the story line forward. but how much would depend on how unbelievable the scene as a whole was.

so i am saying take the highest & lowest Drama out of the scene average
and the highest & lowest believability scores out of the average

then compare Da & Dna (drama average & drama new average)
as well do the sambe with belivability Ba & Bna

so Dna - DA is either higher/lower or about the same = DD
and Bna - Ba is either higher/lower or about the same = DB

so DD+ is the difference yields positive
DD- us the difference yields negative
DD the difference was about the same

we are not talking absolute math equations here about may be 0 difference or it may be a small difference, how small is something play balancing will have to work out.

If DD+ and DB+ then their was a dramatic moment, but it seemed unbelievable the unbelievability may over ride any positive effects of the dramatic moment

If DD+ and DB then their was a distinctly dramatic moment, this would further the story line

If DD+ and DB- then thier was a distinctly dramactic moment, but it highlighted how unbelievable the rest of the scene was, depending on the diffrence this may actually hurt the story line.

If DD then no matter how DB varries there was dramatic moment this scene will neither hurt nor further the story line.

Ff DD- and DB+ then you've done a bad thing, there was a week link in this scene and a moment that was so unbelievable it ruined strength of the rest of the scene, this will hurt the story line

If DD- and DB then you've run a strong scene that was evenly believable, it will not help or hurt you scene

if DD- and DB- you had one moment that weighted on the drama and believability of the scene but the scene it self was very stong, this scene will affect your story line. positive or negative affect will be based upon the current Drama & believability scores of your story line.


if you followed this, I'd love your comments/thoughts/opinions.

Does this sound like a logical way to grade scenes into story lines?

do you have a better idea?

Um dude all I can say to this is "Who's on first?"

home work for the alpha testers. when should Characters stats improve? and by how much? (that is how often and what should triger the change in stats, and can stats get worse? if you botch a scene and beat yourself up, you might grow more tentative and regress rather than improve. or is life always a growth process? you never move back wards.)

Not sure exactly how to determine the when and by how much. But I definitely believe regression should be possible in cases like the example you gave. Depending on factors like acting experience and emotional maturity, botching a scene badly could be a real setback in the actor's development. Creatives are notorious for being their own worst critics. So the possibility of a talent beating themselves up over a disastrous scene should very much be possible.

thank you for the help. and one last dumb question, any one know a good soap opera site ? (I think every one involved is male i could be wrong, but that is my guess. a female perspective might be of some use and posting on a fan forum might draw a fresh perspective. just a thought)

My favorite has been Soap Central. You have a great deal of information all gathered there at once. Storyline recaps. Spoilers for the coming week. Casting notes. Show histories. Family trees. And yes message boards as well. I'm sure there are other good ones folks can but you onto as well. But for my mind Soap Central is where it's at

[mistaken]

I will go back i guess and try to reword the explanation of that idea.

after asking the question i hit google and landed on their forums. asked for some help and had my query deleted. which is no big deal i just wished they would have sent me a message telling me whether the post violated board rules, was unwanted or in the wrong forum. I'm not sure whether i'm unwanted or missunderstood. oh well.



work on the directory system proceeds apace. (that is a snails pace I'm pulling code from an old project that should help, and improving it as i go) but it should make file management, and multiple databases easier, and if i build it in now it can grow with the project versus having to be shoe horned in later.

steps 1 - 8

9) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
a) save file for path c:\soapland.txt
b)function to pull the path on start up
c)function of change path from default of c:\soapland\

d)get default data path
e)add new data path
f)select exsisting data path

g)get default save game (must match with data path)
h)add new save game file
i)select exsising save game file

10) add character development to the system
11) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
12) move all save actions to functions
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.

[mistaken]

tester's i've found a bug, and I am currently fixing it.

if you go into view character of view action when there are no characters or action the game throws an error and exits.

i found the problem and it will be corrected in the next release.

steps 1 - 8

9) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
a) save file for path c:\soapland.txt
b)function to pull the path on start up
c)function of change path from default of c:\soapland\ (not sure i want to do this in the game, but want to make an install file that asks where to put it, thoughts?)

d)get default data path
e)add new data path
f)select exsisting data path

g)get default save game (must match with data path)
h)add new save game file
i)select existing save game file

10) add character development to the system
11) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
12) move all save actions to functions
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.

[EkmO]

So hows it going?

[mistaken]

steps 1 - 8

9) add a new game function, that copies the static files to live game files (a sub set of this is to add a function allowing you to tell the game where base files and save files should be saved/pulled from)
a) save file for path c:\soapland.txt
b)function to pull the path on start up

d)get default data path
e)add new data path
f)select existing data path

g)get default save game (must match with data path)
h)add new save game file
i)select existing save game file

so data sets include actions and characters
save files include scenes (tell me if this doesn't make sence)
*add a header to each screen so you know what database and save file your in*

10) add character development to the system
11) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
12) move all save actions to functions
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order
14) put storyline in place -> make it so a scene can only be run once and storyline can be graded.



number 10 throws a monkey wrench into things. it moves the character file from permanent files to the save files. why is this a problem? it means that if you decide latter to add a new character i need to either let you edit the save game data, or import from the database, either way it's a whole new set of code.

the other thing is i need a system for improvement and I'm not sure what that is. tomorrow I am going to set down and look at the next 5 steps and determine what i should do next. 10 & 14 are the big conceptual problems. 11 - 13 are code, but if i do them before 10 and 14, I may spend of a lot of time redoing the work once i add in the functionality needed for 10 & 14.

as testers what are your thoughts? i'm thinking I should work out 14 and then 10 as that would essentially provide the frame work for the whole game.

[cappyboy]

number 10 throws a monkey wrench into things. it moves the character file from permanent files to the save files. why is this a problem? it means that if you decide latter to add a new character i need to either let you edit the save game data, or import from the database, either way it's a whole new set of code.

the other thing is i need a system for improvement and I'm not sure what that is. tomorrow I am going to set down and look at the next 5 steps and determine what i should do next. 10 & 14 are the big conceptual problems. 11 - 13 are code, but if i do them before 10 and 14, I may spend of a lot of time redoing the work once i add in the functionality needed for 10 & 14.

as testers what are your thoughts? i'm thinking I should work out 14 and then 10 as that would essentially provide the frame work for the whole game.

Sounds like you have the right game plan to me. Characters can't develop in a vaccuum. They need the storylines to develop in.

[EkmO]

So, Is this project dead or still going?

[cappyboy]

So, Is this project dead or still going?

Oh boy. Here we go. The interest is a good thing but I don't think it's quite time for this question to be showing up yet, dude. It's only been like a week and a half since he last posted this thought process. And from the looks of things, he has some pretty hardcore coding before the next alpha is ready. If this project had been stagnant for a month or two, I could see the concerns it might be dead. But maybe we should give him more of a chance to come up for air first. After all, this isn't a program he's getting paid for like Arlie's or Adam's.

[mistaken]

steps 1 - 9

10) Storyline and show creation
a)add storyline, and characters to a story line (1/2 done)
b)view progress of an existing storyline
c)end a storyline

d) add an episode (for now will be 5 scenes)
e) view episode history
f) change show name

g) make scenes run as part of show
h) grade show
j) grade storylines

11) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
12) move all save actions to functions
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order

14) add character development to the system

15) introduce relative scal grading
16) AI?


With no real ideas coming from anyone else conceptualizing a basic system for grading the shows and storylines took a lot of thought, in a span of time when time was at a premium.

as you can see there is now a basic plan in place i am hoping to knock off one point a night or so, so that by next weekend i can work on points 11-13, and then move onto conceptualizing point 14.

so when is the next alpha release? depends, it maybe after point 10, 13 or after 14. after point 14 the game should be "playable" I am not saying fun, but all of the Key concepts form my original outline should be in place.

points 15 & 16 are apart of each other, as with out others to comepare you to, relative would only be against yourself. as well I have never, and have no idea how to program an AI. so don't expect any release in the near future to attempt it.

So, Is this project dead or still going?

Is the game dead? No... could it be Yes! why? I have 7 testers, but only 2 have given any feed back, and all my thanks to cappy for the continued feedback. I am trying to put together a storyline and episode rating system, when no one has commented on how they feel about the ratings coming out of each scene. did they vary to much, to little, line up with what you wanted to see once you had a handle on what a change in a particular skill would bring?

why is that important? I am building all of the formula's around it, so if the scene rating system doesn't work, none of the storyline or episode ratings are going to work either.

Oh boy. Here we go. The interest is a good thing but I don't think it's quite time for this question to be showing up yet, dude. It's only been like a week and a half since he last posted this thought process. And from the looks of things, he has some pretty hardcore coding before the next alpha is ready. If this project had been stagnant for a month or two, I could see the concerns it might be dead. But maybe we should give him more of a chance to come up for air first. After all, this isn't a program he's getting paid for like Arlie's or Adam's.

thank you. :cool:

[EkmO]

Sorry :P Just like i said when i create an actor, they dont appear

[mistaken]

Sorry :P Just like i said when i create an actor, they don't appear

they don't appear where?

Under view character?
Under add action to a scene?
Under run a scene?


these are the only three placed an actor will appear. if they don't appear in any of these three places then, go into the soapland file and open the file PAF.db with notepad. do they appear in there? (this will tell me if they saved at all, if they don't show up in any of the above three places I'm going with they didn't add).

Dumb question time: :)

when you add are you getting all 5 promts?

Name
acting
delivery
emotion
looks


and when asked (Y/N) are you answering with either a Y or y? (the answer is not case sensitive)

(I know some of these are dumb questions, but adding an actor is a simple piece of code in the version you have. ask the 5 questions, check for save, if Y, open file and save. if it works once, and then a second time the thing works.(twice has to do with making sure it iterates from the right point 1 not 0))

now the more advanced question. I don't know why you wouldn't, but do you have access rights to the soapland file? the easiest way to fix this would simply be to rename the file, create a new soapland file, fire up the game and try to create an actor one more time. (you can always go into security settings under the folder, but if you don't know what your looking for it's going take more time to write out those instructions, than i want to take up with out know that is the issue that needs addressed.)

[EkmO]

Can you email me the game again please :)

connor_scott@live.co.uk

Time to get off my arse and test this game for real! :P

[mistaken]

to the testers:

I've been playing with my own program, and actually having a small amount of fun. (call me a sadist i guess :p ) but one thing has been bothering the crap out of me.

in the action description when it parses a function, if char1 is Emily (F) and Char2 is Brad (M) there is no he she.

1)Should i Add gender to the Character's list of attributes?
2)Should i then add gender Switch to the parser?

so if the had and SLAP action, the tag might read:
*P1* gets angry at *P2* and slaps them.
would become
*P1* gets angry at *P2* and slaps *Ghim/her*.
and would read
Emily gets angry at Brad and slaps him.

*G / * with the male option on the left and the female option on the right.

or am i the only one bothered by this?

Let me know either in the thread of via pm vote, whether i should fix this now, or not waste the time and work on more important things? (seriously the gender ambiguity of 'them' for a single person just doesn't set well with me)

[EkmO]

Yes add an option for gender. Also im just testing the game now, Ive added a charactor and saved it and now it said file added. I go into view charactor and i type in the name of the actor i added 'Triple H' :P and it comes up with an error and closes, Ill go and try it again.

So ill go into again and add the charactor, And now i view it again and it crashes?

[mistaken]

yeah you broke the game. :D

no, you didn't, you just found something i took for granted. thier is no search feature in the view a character. so if you want to reference a character you have to do it the same way you do with every menu, by the number next to their name.

ugly screen shot time:
http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj232/mistaken4now/soapland/alpha_11screen1.jpg
acceptable responses would be 0) to exit or 1 - 5 to see a character.

I will have to see why it crashes out rather than simply reject when you put in a n alpha string.

[cappyboy]

to the testers:

I've been playing with my own program, and actually having a small amount of fun. (call me a sadist i guess :p ) but one thing has been bothering the crap out of me.

in the action description when it parses a function, if char1 is Emily (F) and Char2 is Brad (M) there is no he she.

1)Should i Add gender to the Character's list of attributes?
2)Should i then add gender Switch to the parser?

so if the had and SLAP action, the tag might read:
*P1* gets angry at *P2* and slaps them.
would become
*P1* gets angry at *P2* and slaps *Ghim/her*.
and would read
Emily gets angry at Brad and slaps him.

*G / * with the male option on the left and the female option on the right.

or am i the only one bothered by this?

Let me know either in the thread of via pm vote, whether i should fix this now, or not waste the time and work on more important things? (seriously the gender ambiguity of 'them' for a single person just doesn't set well with me)

So far I haven't been bothered by this because the game is in the very earliest stages. But as it grows into something truly playable, little things like this gender issue will start to matter more. I'd say get the skeleton down first and the gender thing can be an early part of the fleshing out. If the game mechanics don't run smoothly, getting genders right won't count for much

[EkmO]

It never displays the list for me?

[EkmO]

From the PM you sent, Yes it only displays 0 for exit

[mistaken]

It never displays the list for me?

From the PM you sent, Yes it only displays 0 for exit

Dude, there was way more than that in the pm.

is there anything in the file? are you running XP?

It says file added, and does not throw an error message which to me means it wrote to the file. but i still need you to go in there and ensure that Character us actually in the c:\soapland\PAF.db file.

if it was a file rights issue i would think that it would not actually write. if there is nothing in there, then i can not ensure weather it wrote or something else removed it.

next i sent this out to 7 people total, did anyone else run into the issue that Ekmo is having?

[EkmO]

Yes im running XP and yes the charactor is in the file.

[mistaken]

steps 1 - 9

10) Storyline and show creation
a)add storyline, and characters to a story line
b)view progress of an existing storyline (1/2 done)
c)end a storyline (1/2 done)

d) add an episode (for now will be 5 scenes)
e) view episode history
f) change show name

g) make scenes run as part of show
h) grade show
j) grade storylines

11) build screens for viewing characters and past scenes.
12) move all save actions to functions
13) Edit characters, actions and the ability to delete actions from scenes, or change the order

14) add character development to the system

15) introduce relative scal grading
16) AI?


ok so why no progress? the answer is work. and life. last minute house showing on wednesday led to 4 hour cleaning marathon. boss deciding i needed to work at the other site thursday, friday, monday took 9 hour days and made them 12+. and saturday was more work due to being the only guy not on vacation. so sunday i slept and did nothing sorry. today will not be much better as though i am at my site i may have to work late. tomorrow i go to the other site I support, and have to run cable and install a new machine i have not had time to set up yet, so i predict a late night there as well.

so maybe by thursday i will get a little time to work on this project.


Ekmo, you problem is baffling me. i can not recreate it. and looking at the code I can't see what would cause it.

[iceman]

I like to check in on this to see how it's going.

So how is testing coming along? Anywhere closer to the finished product?

[mistaken]

I like to check in on this to see how it's going.

So how is testing coming along? Anywhere closer to the finished product?

see the post right above this one. for current status.

as for overall progress, other than how Characters will progress, I've got a pretty good handle on how i want to program this, now i just need to find the time to set down and crank it out.

[mistaken]

just a small update, I did not carry over the current status board, as i don't want anyone to get discouraged from a lack of changes to it.

* displaying a storyline is 80% complete the other 20% hinges on finishing the run a show code.

* the lay out for ending a storyline is closed, but until i can run a show, and have the show code working correctly, it's not worth coding up. but with the code out line done, that is half the work. so I'll stick with 50% done on that.

* i moved to setting up and then running a show last night, and will continue to work on it tonight. this function is 1) rather large 2) rather complex as it will be where the calculation of the show grade goes in, and where storyline grade is taken into affect on a scenes score 3) requires some other funtions to be recoded (you of course can't rerun a scene and you can't run a scene out side of a show.)

I'm hoping tonight that will see the completion of the addition of the 5 scenes to the show, and the selection of what storyline each scene belongs too. (as well as the check to make sure that at least one of the people in the scene is in the storyline)

Question:should a scene have to belong to a storyline?

[EkmO]

Sorry i havent replied, Im on holiday at the moment.

[cappyboy]

just a small update, I did not carry over the current status board, as i don't want anyone to get discouraged from a lack of changes to it.

* displaying a storyline is 80% complete the other 20% hinges on finishing the run a show code.

* the lay out for ending a storyline is closed, but until i can run a show, and have the show code working correctly, it's not worth coding up. but with the code out line done, that is half the work. so I'll stick with 50% done on that.

* i moved to setting up and then running a show last night, and will continue to work on it tonight. this function is 1) rather large 2) rather complex as it will be where the calculation of the show grade goes in, and where storyline grade is taken into affect on a scenes score 3) requires some other funtions to be recoded (you of course can't rerun a scene and you can't run a scene out side of a show.)

I'm hoping tonight that will see the completion of the addition of the 5 scenes to the show, and the selection of what storyline each scene belongs too. (as well as the check to make sure that at least one of the people in the scene is in the storyline)

Question:should a scene have to belong to a storyline?

I'm essentially of two minds on this topic. On the one hand, I can see the argument that scenes that don't contribute bog down the pace of the show and hurt the flow. But then on the other I can see the value of scenes not directly related to storylines. The later scenes between Rex and Mimi on Days of Our Lives come to mind. Right before Mimi got pregnant and succumbed to her mother's terrible influence, she and Rex were the happy couple that counterbalanced all the misery of the storylines. Their love storyline had essentially culiminated but we'd still see them whispering sweet nothings to each other or making love or otherwise just basking in their mutual love. Proved to be the calm before the storm that ripped them apart. But in that period, they served an important service by lightening what was otherwise a very somber mood at that time in the show. Maybe a compromise here. Maybe scenes fare better if they are part of storylines. But the penalties for scenes without storylines grow over time. That way, there's a allowance for balancing the mood without it becoming a hammock.

[mistaken]

-The End-

Due to other situations that have come to my attention, updates on this project will cease.

Testers May still continue to receive updates, if you don't want them just let me know by PM.

What i though was passive acceptance, may just be me not asking for permission and assuming to much.

It's been fun, and if I get something I actually want to release i will set up a web server and host it. (I've got more than enough band witdth here, just my ISP rotates the IP address's to keep users from hosting)

[EkmO]

Have they told you, Your not allowed to do it?

[D16NJD16]

Why so cryptic?

[EkmO]

So why is this ending?

[KenFan4life]

so like....could I be given the option to book the next "X-files" or a porn-o soap opera?

[D16NJD16]

a porn-o soap opera?

Tell me more brother tell me more...

[soulztnrv1]

Damn, this was a good project.

[mistaken]

how many people have access to Microsoft Access 2007? I know it is a business application for the most part. I told you this project was not dead, and I have been putting a fair amount of work into it lately, but all the design has been in access to cut down on the coding I actually have to do so that I can get to testing equations and the like.

let me know and in a month or so I will shoot out the first rough draft. If not maybe once I have something I like I will make a build in the DBA tool in open office.

Thanks for all the patience. hopefully soon I will start a Soap Diary in the alternate diary forum. I have a pretty cool Idea I am working with for the test set up.

[cappyboy]

Glad to hear this, Brother Mistaken. This program is so needed. I don't know if I have Access because I haven't had call for it if I do.. But hopefully I can step up to help you out again. This title is needed so much. It's been 20 years now and I still gripe sometimes about how Days Of Our Lives started Sami's descent into schemerhood.

[mistaken]

for the first time ever I think I got ratings today.

only the individual with in the segments, but hopefully by tomorrow I will have ratings for segments & for shows by the end of the week

Check out Tempest Heights Preview in the alternate diary thread.

[mistaken]

modified the ratings to include popularity, and to be recoreded to the segments.

built a from to add and modify actors

[praguepride]

Hey, just saw this thread.

I have MS Access 2007, I have Basic experience (VB & .NET) AND part of my current job is QC, so if you need another tester, I'm your man :D

[Rated r]

If you still need testers for MS Access 2007, then hit me up.

[machinesxe]

LEt me know as I also have Access 07.

[mistaken]

Hey, just saw this thread.

I have MS Access 2007, I have Basic experience (VB & .NET) AND part of my current job is QC, so if you need another tester, I'm your man :D

If you still need testers for MS Access 2007, then hit me up.

LEt me know as I also have Access 07.

Thank you all, I will take under advisement. hopefully by the end of the week I will have saving shows done.

I'm not looking to release an alpha a early as the code version, because I know Access is stable so bugs will be more in my logic than in the code.

So by the time you get it, it should be some what playable. still really rought, but playable.

[praguepride]

So what would you like us to focus on for our feedback?

[mistaken]

So what would you like us to focus on for our feedback?

that will depend on where it is when I choose to send it.

On the plus side I did finish the save show function this week.

[jwoodson213]

Really glad to see this is still being worked on. Think its a great idea. Also Porno-Soap Opera is pretty funny.

[Astyn]

im really glad to see this continue as it looks like a good little project and im very interested