Unforgiven thread (**SPOILERS**)

[RKO_HBK]

Just a place to talk about the PPV if you're online when it's on (or to offer predictions now).

I'll just throw my (brief) thoughts out there:

Diva's Title: McCool vs. Maryse:
I'm gonna go with McCool here, just cos I really don't think Maryse is ready to even be on TV yet, whereas McCool is fairly competent.

World Tag Team Title: Rhodes and Dibiase vs. Cryme Tyme:
As much as I'd like Cryme Tyme to get the win and their first set of tag titles, Rhodes and Dibiase need a longer second reign after having the first de-railed by Cena/Batista. Plus, they've largely looked like Cryme Tyme and Orton's bitches the past couple of weeks, so a win here is needed I think.

Unsanctioned Match: Michaels vs. Jericho:
I'm really not sure what to expect here. I'm going to predict that HBK wins, but Jericho destroys him after the bell, sending him packing for a while (leading to a blow-off at a later date). That way this awesome feud continues but Michaels gets some measure of revenge.

ECW Championship Scramble:
I can see this being either Miz, Hardy or Henry, but I'm gonna go with the safe choice (Matt). Henry's looked dominant as champ but I think it's Hardy's time.

World Heavyweight Championship Scramble:
This could really go to any of the 5, but I definately see a change here, despite what sites like 411mania are predicting. I'm torn between MVP, Jeff and TBK. My mind says Jeff but my heart says Kendrick (I'm going to mark out so much if he wins, such an awesome talent)......I'll go with my heart, barely (could this sound any more gay? :p)

WWE Championship Scramble:
I don't see all 3 titles changing hands tonight, so this one is more Punk by default. Plus, this would cement Punk as a true, credible champion. Kane and Rey will be feuding after this and no title's needed. JBL isn't in good enough shape to do it, and I don't see Batista walking away with it just yet. Also, with the hinted Orton-Punk feud, I can't see this going any other way.


They're just my pre-show thoughts, probably won't stay online for the whole show but post your thoughts.

[Franchise22]

anyone got the justintv link?

[Eisen-verse]

anyone got the justintv link?

I second that :)

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

I've got the Hardy Boyz and Punk winning... And where's the JustinTV link? machine? :)

[infinitywpi]

Why did I think Summerslam is next week?

Anyway, since the scrambles are all that really matter this time around: ECW will be Hardy pinning Miz for the win, letting us do Henry vs Hardy for the next month. HHH will break up every pin in his match, losing only when two pins are made at the same time and he can't break them both up. Punk retains with a last-second fluke pin.

[i effin rule]

I looked for one earlier, and most of the regular ones I went to had been removed, and the only active one I found was extremely slow. They seem to be cracking down on justin.tv

[machinesxe]

I've got the Hardy Boyz and Punk winning... And where's the JustinTV link? machine? :)

Yah not really working but I did find this brothers...

http://www.blogtv.com/People/Da1LvnCboy

[AfRoMaN36]

HAHA THE Brian Kendrick is the WWE champion

[RKO_HBK]

HAHA THE Brian Kendrick is the WWE champion

haha I marked out. I'm just praying he gets the last pin (cos you know HHH will get one back when he comes in).

[AfRoMaN36]

Ah well, Trips won... I expected that. At least it sets up a Taker vs Trips match up at Survivor Series or what have you...

Question: does the pinfalls within the match count as an official title reign? Because to be honest, that would suck.

PS: The Mr Perfect DVD sounds awesome though.... dare I say.... perfect.

[RKO_HBK]

True, but I genuinally was expecting Jeff to get it. This PPV will be a slight disappointment (in terms of results) if Punk doesn't retain, for me at least. The ending for the Y2J-HBK match was kinda messed up though considering it was Unsanctioned.

[masterded]

Question: does the pinfalls within the match count as an official title reign? Because to be honest, that would suck.


They don't, it just seems someone didn't tell JR.

[AfRoMaN36]

Here comes another Orton title reign....

[Greg2511]

Brilliant booking having Randy Orton take out Punk before his match.

it means we have option a) the title changes hands without any damage to punk and sets us up nicely for a great Randy Orton/CM Punk program

or b) he still manages to make it into the match (would be most effective if hes the first in the ring, maybe even with a pre match promo about how it takes more than that to remove him from a match) and win the scramble making him look even more badass

very good booking I think

EDIT: Forgot about the Kofi inclusion. I can see the entire story line already it practically writes itself. Kofi came to CM Punks aid, why? Because unlike DiBiase, Orton, Rhodes and Manu...Kofi, much like Punk had to WORK to get to where he is today. Being someone who came to prominence around the same time as Punk it could work and would really help to get EVERYONE involved over. Id even suggest giving CM Punk and Kofi another "ally" but I can't think of any off the top of my head right now

[Franchise22]

the PPV has sounded interesting as ive read it. i wished i wouldve ordered it. i almost did. the triple H scramble sounded crazy! for those watching, has been a good watch?

[RKO_HBK]

the PPV has sounded interesting as ive read it. i wished i wouldve ordered it. i almost did. the triple H scramble sounded crazy! for those watching, has been a good watch?

It's been really good so far, the Y2J-HBK match was awesome, the scrambles have been well-booked (although towards the end Kendrick looked like a bitch) and Undertaker's return was epic (Big Show heel turn). Even Batista-JBL opening the Raw scramble is enjoyable.

[Astil]

f*** the WWE.

[AfRoMaN36]

Y2J as champ?

Smarks may now go pleasure themselves to this image.

[RKO_HBK]

Having Punk taken out was kinda stupid booking, makes him look poor, but I won't lie- I marked out when Y2J went for the cover.

[AfRoMaN36]

Having Punk taken out was kinda stupid booking, makes him look poor, but I won't lie- I marked out when Y2J went for the cover.

It makes him look better by never losing the strap and it sets up for a feud with Orton, while at the same time gives the belt to someone else.

Overall a solid ppv, though I think the chat room right next to it was a bit more entertaining. Apparently someone thought Owen Hart was going to return as the 5th man.

[SuperOwens]

So for those of us at work who are never going to see the ppv - Who won what?

[AfRoMaN36]

Well, from what I saw:

HBK beat Y2J

McCool beat whatshername

Hardy won the ECW title

Trips retains the WWE title

Y2J wins the world title (After Orton gets Punk assaulted by Afa, DiBiase and Rhodes)


And Show turns on Taker

[Prophet]

I have to admit, that was better than I expected. Kendrick was unofficially champ for damn near 8 minutes ... this makes me as happy as a little girl! Overall, a good show. The final minutes of the ECW scramble was ... awkward? I understand the clustering, but it just looked sloppy to me. And poor Miz, in his hometown, working his tail off for 20 minutes, and he's the only one never to get a pinfall. He just got ring rash on his forehead.

I actually dug the end of the HBK/Y2J match. Where Jericho was unresponsive, and Michaels kept going. I think it's more of where it could lead. The doubts it could instill in Shawn, knowing he did something that he theoretically shouldn't have done. A whole crisis of faith twist to the story, because I seriously doubt this is where it ends.

And the Smackdown scramble was the match of the night, in my opinion. Phenomenal work, and Kendrick with some credibility. Until the last few minutes when he was pedigree'd and swantoned more often than Vince has ever been stunnered.

And the Raw scramble wasn't bad. The fact that Jericho is world champion without a single offensive move .. beautiful! And not having Punk involved works wonders. Kane can now feud with Rey-Rey, Batista can chase Jericho while HBK is in conflict, and CM Punk can set his sights on the Promo Killer. (Although his interactions with Punk and Team Priceless have seemed to bring some life to him. Odd realizing Orton has a pulse on the mic.) Overall, a very good show, I think.

[SuperOwens]

Well, from what I saw:

HBK beat Y2J

McCool beat whatshername

Hardy won the ECW title

Trips retains the WWE title

Y2J wins the world title (After Orton gets Punk assaulted by Afa, DiBiase and Rhodes)


And Show turns on Taker


So Jericho loses to Shawn and then ends up as champion. Wait, how did he even get in the scramble?

Sounds like a fun event

[AfRoMaN36]

During a Punk promo, Orton came in and the end result was a 4 on one with Punk against Orton, Simply Priceless and Afa. It all ended with the Punt-of-Doom and he was unable to compete in the match. Adamle put Y2J in the match as his replacement and ended up winning without pulling off a single manuver by simply getting a pin in the last 6 seconds.

[Prophet]

So Jericho loses to Shawn and then ends up as champion. Wait, how did he even get in the scramble?

Sounds like a fun event

Punk was doing an interview, when Orton confronted him. During the back and forth, Cody Rhodes, Ted Dibiase Jr., and Afa Jr. (As Manu) jumped CM Punk. Kofi Kingston tried to help, but got beaten down as well, and while Punk was on the ground, trying to lift himself up, Orton did the punt kick to the side of Punk's head.

Adamle came out, said he'd find a replacement if Punk couldn't compete, and during the scramble, with the other 4 already in the ring, Jericho limped down, still bloody and beaten from his match with HBK. He got in the ring, and Batista speared him. The other 4 fought for most of the final 5 minutes, and Batista hit Kane with a spinebuster to become the "current" champ. He got up, and Rey Mysterio slingshot himself at Batista, and while the Animal was distracted, Jericho crawled into the ring, and covered Kane with 5 seconds left on the clock, thus making him world champ.

And the one match left out was Dibiase and Rhodes beating Crime Time for the world tag titles.

[i effin rule]

Not sure if it means anything (probably doesn't) but WWE.com has Hardy as ECW champ but still has Punk as World Heavyweight.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Haven't marked out for a moment like this in forever.

Jericho winning it, seven years later. ****ing awesome.

[SuperOwens]

During a Punk promo, Orton came in and the end result was a 4 on one with Punk against Orton, Simply Priceless and Afa. It all ended with the Punt-of-Doom and he was unable to compete in the match. Adamle put Y2J in the match as his replacement and ended up winning without pulling off a single manuver by simply getting a pin in the last 6 seconds.

Punk was doing an interview, when Orton confronted him. During the back and forth, Cody Rhodes, Ted Dibiase Jr., and Afa Jr. (As Manu) jumped CM Punk. Kofi Kingston tried to help, but got beaten down as well, and while Punk was on the ground, trying to lift himself up, Orton did the punt kick to the side of Punk's head.

Adamle came out, said he'd find a replacement if Punk couldn't compete, and during the scramble, with the other 4 already in the ring, Jericho limped down, still bloody and beaten from his match with HBK. He got in the ring, and Batista speared him. The other 4 fought for most of the final 5 minutes, and Batista hit Kane with a spinebuster to become the "current" champ. He got up, and Rey Mysterio slingshot himself at Batista, and while the Animal was distracted, Jericho crawled into the ring, and covered Kane with 5 seconds left on the clock, thus making him world champ.

And the one match left out was Dibiase and Rhodes beating Crime Time for the world tag titles.

Cheers boys :)

Would have preferred it if he beaten Michaels but still was a bloody mess, then stolen the title in the last 5 seconds. It will be interesting to see what they do with him from here on in

[mike b]

All i can say is wtf :eek:
So now i wonder how they gonna run with this storyline

[Ransik]

They better not count the changes during the Scrambles... if they did it'd ruin ANY build-up for the guys who "won it" and who have never been Champion before.

Not only that... but I don't want to ever hear or call Triple H a 15 time World Champion.

[Prophet]

No, they were dubbed the current champion, but no reign during the 20 minutes is officially recognized. Finlay has never officially been ECW champ, The Kendrick has never officially been WWE champ.

[Eisen-verse]

I love... love... love that Jericho won the title and the way that he did it. This should be very interesting. hah. Jericho's push lately has been absolutely gold.

[fatallylost]

Ah well, Trips won... I expected that. At least it sets up a Taker vs Trips match up at Survivor Series or what have you...

Question: does the pinfalls within the match count as an official title reign? Because to be honest, that would suck.

PS: The Mr Perfect DVD sounds awesome though.... dare I say.... perfect.

They better not count the changes during the Scrambles... if they did it'd ruin ANY build-up for the guys who "won it" and who have never been Champion before.

Not only that... but I don't want to ever hear or call Triple H a 15 time World Champion.


It was stated numerous times that only the last pinfall counted as a legit reign.

[Greg2511]

Im going to reiterate what I said earlier

BRILLIANT booking on this Pay Per View.

I did not see the Jericho thing coming at all, and no one should of, but this allows him to fued with Batista ("You never beat me") which is something fresh and then HBK as well as I'm guessing he must be pretty angry that the guy who he kicked the crap out of earlier in the night came out and won the world heavyweight title an hour or 2 later.

CM Punk/Orton looks like a solid program and as I stated earlier should work wonders in getting a whole bunch of guys over, if done right. Love the 2nd/3rd Generation stable. LOVE it!

Rey/Kane can continue their thing and hopefully we can get some kind of explanation because if it was ALL in Kanes head again im gonna be pissed.

Other than that The Smackdown Scramble made Jeff and IMO Kendrick into serious contenders. The fact that Kendrick held it for most of the match without any help from Zeke is brilliant for him and I hope his performance leads to even more of a push.

[djthefunkchris]

I can honestly say that Brian Kendricks is the one I least care about in the whole thing.

[ColtCabana]

Not sure if it means anything (probably doesn't) but WWE.com has Hardy as ECW champ but still has Punk as World Heavyweight.

It's got Jericho as champion now, so I think they were just slack.

[scorpion]

It makes him look better by never losing the strap and it sets up for a feud with Orton, while at the same time gives the belt to someone else.

Overall a solid ppv, though I think the chat room right next to it was a bit more entertaining. Apparently someone thought Owen Hart was going to return as the 5th man.

So CM Punk gets one kick to the head and can't compete, while Chris Jericho gets completely brutalized and comes back and wins the title. Yeah, that makes Punk look real strong. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for Jericho winning the title, but Punk should have been in that match. There is NO EXCUSE for pulling a bait and switch on a PPV main event match.

Im going to reiterate what I said earlier

BRILLIANT booking on this Pay Per View.

I couldn't disagree more. Outside of the ECW match, none of the other matches were great. Why were guys who were already the current champs going for pins? Did someone forget to tell them they it didn't matter if they got another win? Why did Jeff Hardy go for a cover instead of trying to break up the pin? The Big Show attack was as obvious as it could get. The booking wasn't horrible, but it certainly wasn't brilliant.

[wilts]

This is amazing proof of the diversity of the internet community and the WWE fans.
On the site that I was watching, there was nearly mass homicide when Jericho came out and everyone hated the show.
I personally thought that it was the worst PPV I have seen in a long time (possibly since the early In Your House shows).

Punk now seems ridiculous, leaving questions of why. Does he not lead such a Straight Edge lifestyle and had to drop the title RVD-esque? Does the 'E realise that however talented Punk is, he is just missing something to be the face of the company? Or did Vinnie Mac get some real bad ganja and think this was perfect scripting?

Trips winning was predictable, but again, possibly with the exception of Jeff for the short term, could any others have really been champ? I mean, The Brian Kendrick - SPANKY?!?!?!?!?!?! How could he even be in the match? I admit he is an amazing talent, but he has been built up over just a few weeks and was rushed into the match because there was no1 else and some tit thought 3 scrambles was a great idea....

HBK vs Y2J was the only saving grace for the show. I loved the match, right up to when the ref rang the bell. Have they forgot what an unsanctioned match used to be?

Overall I was VERY disappointed and VERY glad I didn't pay for it. Now, time to start up TEW and correct this ****-fest disaster.

Have a good 1 all.

[Greg2511]

This is amazing proof of the diversity of the internet community and the WWE fans.
On the site that I was watching, there was nearly mass homicide when Jericho came out and everyone hated the show.
I personally thought that it was the worst PPV I have seen in a long time (possibly since the early In Your House shows).

Punk now seems ridiculous, leaving questions of why. Does he not lead such a Straight Edge lifestyle and had to drop the title RVD-esque? Does the 'E realise that however talented Punk is, he is just missing something to be the face of the company? Or did Vinnie Mac get some real bad ganja and think this was perfect scripting?

Trips winning was predictable, but again, possibly with the exception of Jeff for the short term, could any others have really been champ? I mean, The Brian Kendrick - SPANKY?!?!?!?!?!?! How could he even be in the match? I admit he is an amazing talent, but he has been built up over just a few weeks and was rushed into the match because there was no1 else and some tit thought 3 scrambles was a great idea....

HBK vs Y2J was the only saving grace for the show. I loved the match, right up to when the ref rang the bell. Have they forgot what an unsanctioned match used to be?

Overall I was VERY disappointed and VERY glad I didn't pay for it. Now, time to start up TEW and correct this ****-fest disaster.

Have a good 1 all.


I personally loved how the three scrambles played out, so give my regards to the tit. I believe it was Patterson.

HBK vs Y2J I thought was the biggest disappointment on the show. For a pairing that could really tear the house down if they wanted to I just thought it was a very "meh" match.

As I've stated before on here I thought the Smackdown scramble did a good job of solidifying Jeff Hardy, and even giving Kendrick some credibility. He was the interim champ for most of the match WITHOUT Zeke around. Sure he was everyones bitch at the end, but they did all go for him there and at the same time it was WITHOUT Zeke, can you imagine if he WAS at ringside, Spanky could have won!

And I thought the CM Punk thing was a great idea, and the best way to get it off him without making him look weak. But at the same time Jericho can claim that CM Punk is weak when CM Punk challenges him.

"I never lost my title Jericho I want a match"

"Punk, you lost the title when you decided that a little headache that Blandy Orton gave you while you were having a little lovers tiff was enough to keep you out of the match. I came out, broken and bruised from my confrontation with Shawn Michaels and I still won the title. So no, I will not give you a rematch"

Punk goes on to fued with Randy, Jericho finishes his unfinished business with Michaels (being all business as he is now he may even OFFER to put the title on the line just to show how much it means for him to end Michaels career). Rey/Kane can play itself out or Batista/Jericho, Batista/Rey. There are a few ways they can go with this, and I think it was VERY well executed.

[Moe Hunter]

Id even suggest giving CM Punk and Kofi another "ally" but I can't think of any off the top of my head right now
What's DH Smith up to these days? He could be a counter to it in the whole "Hey my folks paved the way but I'm earning my spot" spiel. Or maybe Paul London could have a resurgence...


Other than that The Smackdown Scramble made Jeff and IMO Kendrick into serious contenders. The fact that Kendrick held it for most of the match without any help from Zeke is brilliant for him and I hope his performance leads to even more of a push.
Watch them act as if it was all Zeke's doing that Kendrick got anywhere.

[Greg2511]

What's DH Smith up to these days? He could be a counter to it in the whole "Hey my folks paved the way but I'm earning my spot" spiel. Or maybe Paul London could have a resurgence...


Watch them act as if it was all Zeke's doing that Kendrick got anywhere.

D.H could work, but I think they stuck him back in FCW....Paul London would be awesome but I doubt we'll ever see that push come about.

As for the Kendrick/Zeke thing. I agree. Apparently management are pretty high on Kendrick, he reminds them of a young Shawn Michaels from what Ive read around the net. But unfortunately i can see them souring on him for one reason or another, Zeke turning on him and becoming a mega star while he returns to nothingness. Gets fired, does two shows for RoH, gets another contract and ends up working in either a jobber tag team or a Jamie Noble type role. thats what I see in his future...lets hope im wrong

[The Shape]

I'm with Greg on everything but for your Kendrick predictions, I think he'll be a staple of the card for a long time now. That match was great for him, he full on dictated it for an age and I actually ENJOYED the Pedigree to him, it was just very well done.

IMO this was THE best PPV since No Mercy last year. Because just like that it had a STORY running throughout the show, only this one (and it's outcome) were even better!

Jericho deserves the gold because his performances since the heel turn have been incredible. I don't think not having Punk compete makes him look weak; Orton won a freakin Mania main event with that kick! Of course it should put him out of commission!

I could go on all day about why else this PPV was fantastic, but to summarise it solidified a new match concept and set up so much else for the future.

As for a potential ally to Punk and Kofi, the absolute best that comes to mind is M..V..P. I am simply dying to see this guy turn face as his heel stuff has lost all momentum. I think they could make a big deal of how his lucrative contract is up for renewal, have the brands compete over his signature until eventually he opts for Raw. Orton & co. welcome him to the show and offer him their allegiance but when it comes to crunch time he helps Punk and Kofi win the match. Next week he cuts a promo with more references to his past and how hard it was for him to get where he was...it writes itself.

HOWEVER, if they don't want to turn MVP face then R-Truth is the natural replacement. The only difference there is that it's more difficult to explain his transition to Raw given how recently he debuted.

The only disappointment about this PPV was Michaels/Jericho but given what followed I can see why Jericho wasn't a bloody, brutalised mess. Oh and, I wanted Maryse to win the Divas title as they need to switch that around a bit IMO to give the division more credibility, but that's hardly of significance.

[Tempest Kane]

Ok so lets start with the ECW scramble, Matt Hardy finaly starting to get some of the payback he deserves from the WWE managment for years of excelent service and even wanting to be back their at all after they treated him like crap, congratz Matt but i would have prefaired to see you do this with the smackdown brand, If they wanted to give long term credibility to the ECW title that would go over with the WWE home fans they realy do need a Randy Orton or someone to hold it, and you deserve more than to be a third rate brands champion when i think you could actually carry smackdown for atleast 3 months.

Anycase. Matt Hardy FTW. Now lets talk about Shelton... why would you put your US champ in the scramble? you want to give him a big push? great! he deserves it, but why not give the US title a push along with it? why does it allways have to be some mid rate belt? why cant you make it a sub-main event and have him work against guys such as Shawn/Jericho to pass on that in-ring skill and rub off some of that popularity before they start to wind down their careers? Thiers a potential for a very good division of future superstars here, split Codey Rhodes and Ted up at this point and put them in the mix also.

But regards the actuall scramble... well lol. Come on. Triple H is right when he says he will be the champ for the next decade, he will be champ as long as he wants to be basicaly.. im glad they solidifed Jeff with this match but i just think while they gave him the fancy entrance/pyro's that Matt dosnt get (and should) and while he is more over than say... Rey Misterio or CM Punk who have both atleast in the short term held the company up in the past... why the hell wouldnt you give him the strap? This leads to a Smackdown vs ECW invasion angle with brother vs brother leading their respective teams, it sure would beat the hell out of this "talent trade" crap they are useing to explain why half of the few ECW matchs we do get are full of smackdown's youth team.

Triple H dosnt need to be champion to draw main event. He is like the undertaker, his match is ushally better than the title events if he dosnt hold a strap anyway. When he gets over his own ego and starts to put the company first...

Im a huge Triple H fan, he's a legend. But he isnt doing the WWE any faviours atm.

Shawn vs Jericho felt 2x too long, i wanted to see a faster paced match in the ring even if shawn dosnt have it to give anymore, it felt painful to watch how bad both of these guys have become with age in the ring. Not that they are any worse than the rest of the WWE roster atm, their above par in that respect but.. something is gone. These 2 would have tore the house down 5 years ago. Sad. But what makes this worse...

The thing that bites me in the arse as i write this, They take a concept that is over-done (3 scrambles in one night ? are you kidding me?) ... they take out a guy who they have invested alot of air time into building up (CM Punk) with some half arsed last min story line to make randy orton look like he was legitimate paying a triple-h persona in a Evolution remake with one guy the WWE prays to god will be the next randy orton (Codey Rhodes) but dosnt quiet have that spechial little something...

And then to make things worse. To make shawn look soft frankly... they put Jericho out their? ... Hang on a second, this is the same jericho we just saw get anal extracted for 30mins and beaten to a point we actually belived shawn still had something left in him?? that same beating your hopeing to sell another PPV off next month with a re-match???

And he comes out coz CM Punk got a 5 second ruffle in the pillows? And wins?

WWE... Vince... you can coast on this kinda crap from creative for what... another 5 years? what then? Coz TNA are putting on a product that is simply better than yours in every way. You have become what WCW was towards the end. "

And what'ca gona do when total none stop action comes looking for you brother! ...


Sorry i had to add the last bit in. Still True Story.

[The Shape]

Michaels made it clear he hadn't done everything to Jericho that he wanted to. The referee stopped the match and eventually Michaels backed away and looked like he was praying almost.

But damn, looking here and elsewhere this PPV seems to really have polarised people :p

[TheTuckerman]

I've not watched it yet (tonight for me) but what I've read it seems the whole thing came off really welll. Here's my 2p worth on some of the matches....

HBK/Jericho - I like the way this story has gone. There's no point in having HBK totally rip Jericho to pieces this early on. Having the match stopped on Shawn back of is like Shawn thinking "Ok, I'll leave it....for now but I'm not done". Jericho being involved in the RAW Scramble isn't as bad as people are saying. From what I understand he got literally no offence and simply scored a pinfall? Seems realistic enough to me. Not only does Jericho being champ add a whole new dimension to his feud with HBK but it opens up so many other doors. From a storyling point of view, well done, I think.

Punk/Orton - Okay, it seems clear that the creative team don't have faith in Punk carrying the RAW brand...yet. But from a storyline perspective, I again think this was done well. Punk didn't actually lose the title and he can play on this. Also, Orton's head punt has been built up as a pretty nasty deal so it's understandable it put Punk out of the match. And again, this opens up many doors for future storylines.

I'm still confused at the whole Kane/Mysterio stuff. I hope they don't just leave it without it coming to some kind of conclusion.

The Big Show heel turn seems like a good idea.

[Greg2511]

I don't think taking the title off Punk had anything to do with him not being able to carry the brand. In fact it seems to me like they are banking on the Orton/Punk program to not need the title to garner interest, when it seems to be shaping up to be the flagship feud on the show. It already has more heat behind it than anything else they could go to from now (except the continuation of Y2J/HBK which should end in another month or two).

I may be wrong, and only time will tell, but it really does seem that they took the title off Punk to give some other people things to do while Punk and Orton steal the show with their rivalry and make some new stars in the process. And it amazes me that they have such faith in Punk to do so. Although Orton is one of their golden boys so that has something to do with it too.

As for the guy who said that TNA are putting out a "product that is far superior in every way"....we are talking about TNA right? Total NonStop Action? The company that werent able to capitalize on signing Christian away from the E (and have mishandled him for what, two years now?)...The company that despite stealing Kurt Angle from right under the nose of WWE were unable to generate any extra interest from it? And honestly, if you can answer me this question is Sting a face or heel? Cos I don't know...and I don't think TNA Management do either.

In my opinion WWE have been on fire lately, and while TNA has its downsides, they too have been picking up a lot of steam the last month or so. Despite the ambiguity of Sting's/Nash's/Jarret'ts allegiances and that whole storyline being a bit of a cluster**** as to whos the goodies and whos the baddies the show as a whole is improving (if only theyd get rid of the full screen Titan Trons). But as much steam as they are picking up, WWE are keeping at it aswell.

In my eyes, right now is a great time to be a wrestling fan, and I can only see it getting better in the coming year or two. I think its time for another boom period (crosses fingers)

[The Shape]

And after all...Christian's going back to WWE soon :D *prays*

[ColtCabana]

... And honestly, if you can answer me this question is Sting a face or heel? Cos I don't know...and I don't think TNA Management do either.



I think he is supposed to be a heel, but I'd say that he is being treated like a face by the fans.

[Greg2511]

Yeah I suppose thats how TNA intended it, but surely they would know that if Sting came out and started talking about respect then he would be cheered for it, and it makes AJ and Joe look like the bad guys. Because to an extent Sting is right. And he has been around for long enough and built that legacy for the fans to respect what he says and cheer him for it. Booker T however, talking about respect is going to get heat.

Surely the booking team would have known that would happen

[Ransik]

WWE... Vince... you can coast on this kinda crap from creative for what... another 5 years? what then? Coz TNA are putting on a product that is simply better than yours in every way. You have become what WCW was towards the end. "

And what'ca gona do when total none stop action comes looking for you brother! ...


Sorry i had to add the last bit in. Still True Story.

I haven't personally sat and watched any WWE TV since I moved back home a couple months ago, but my younger sister watches it and I tend to hear what's going on (RAW at least, Smackdown doesn't come on here and honestly... how are 1.4 million people watching ECW every week when NO ONE knows who any of them are?)

I don't care who wants to get on my case for it... I KNEW Triple H was the only one walking out with his Title and judging by what I've read in here, no one seems to be feeling any different than me on that. Still will never, ever... understand the attraction of that man.

But anyway, I do read results and I am seeing that "WCW 2000" booking style coming from the WWE lately. Can't really comment on how it comes off on TV.... but this PPV is the perfect example of how they're getting desperate to reboost the TV ratings that have been hovering in the same 10% range the last several years. I'm sorry... but rehashing the old Wrestlemania Hardcore Title Scramble for the 3 World Titles only demeaned them even more, at least on paper. I asked my sister, she said they never once on TV said changes during the matches did not count as a new Champion and I'm SURE that was never mentioned on purpose in order to get more people to buy the PPV, with them believing they were going to see over a dozen new Champions crowned. I even looked around online myself... never saw it mentioned and I even asked here last night!

And yeah yeah I'm waiting for the "broken record" speeches from the select few on this Board but come on now... I'd rather sit here and read Marvel Comics from 40 years than watch wrestling on Monday nights.... and I didn't miss a single Monday night wrestling program for over 12 years! They took several steps in the right direction a couple months ago... and then broke their own legs. Sorry.... but Jericho's Title reign isn't going to save the WWE from it's mediocre booking and as much as people claim Vince Russo is going to keep TNA from ever reaching the next level... the way the WWE is booked these days on the fly like WCW used to do... they'll never get anywhere other than where they've been sitting rating wise the last 6 or 7 years.

Football has nothing to do with it.... no reality TV show does.... the state of the economy sure doesn't. That excuse is just plain bull and I KNOW someone will try to use it to counter my argument.

Back in the Attitude Era it didn't matter if Giant Silva would've spent 20 minutes dancing in the middle of the ring... people would've watched it because of the atmosphere and unpredictability that came with the program.

Take a look at the Jericho situation. Couple months ago HBK had that same angle and "he couldn't wrestle again.

Last night HBK did it to Jericho and what an hour later... Jericho is World Champion.

But CM Punk took one shot to the head (dunno how either) and he can't compete?

That's obvious poor and rushed booking. And while I think it's great Jericho won the World Title.... the booking makes no sense... and I have NO faith in that company to push Jericho as World Champion correctly. If things change by the next PPV I'll take a look at it but damn... this PPV sounds worse on paper AFTER the fact than it did before it even took place. I don't care what the matches were like because I know there were good spots... but on paper... and I don't care WHAT any of you say.... if this had been a Vince-Russo-Orlando-Original.... you'd ALL bring the torches. ;)

[wilts]

You have become what WCW was towards the end.

My thoughts exactly.

[The Shape]

Ransik. I'm sure I speak on behalf of everyone here when I say, if you're going to base your opinions off of what your sister says and what you read on the internet, could you kindly shove them up your own arse.

At the end of the day, there are people who watch the stuff and assess it on merit, and people who will take advantage of any excuse to criticise anything WWE does without time for rational thought. Evidently there are plenty in this thread who fall into the latter category, which is a shame because their opinions are, as far as I'm concerned, completely invalid. :)

[Ransik]

As for the guy who said that TNA are putting out a "product that is far superior in every way"....we are talking about TNA right? Total NonStop Action? The company that werent able to capitalize on signing Christian away from the E (and have mishandled him for what, two years now?)...The company that despite stealing Kurt Angle from right under the nose of WWE were unable to generate any extra interest from it? And honestly, if you can answer me this question is Sting a face or heel? Cos I don't know...and I don't think TNA Management do either.


Ummm.... you're saying TNA didn't capitalize on Christian? Did you SEE Christian in the WWE? His last 2 years there were the worst of his entire career! He had UNDER 10 victories his last 12 months in the company and was jobbed out and buried so badly I didn't think TNA was even going to be able to make him a viable threat for the X-Division Title!

Sting was supposed to be heel... but just like I said... Sting cannot be heel... the fans will NOT boo him unanimously. It didn't work when WCW tried it and I knew it wouldn't work when TNA tried it. They should've known better. Sting is THE ultimate face and the fans simply will not turn on the man. He could denounce his religion... set fire to The Bible.... and kick a 2 year old in the head and the fans would still cheer him on.

[RKO_HBK]

I asked my sister, she said they never once on TV said changes during the matches did not count as a new Champion and I'm SURE that was never mentioned on purpose in order to get more people to buy the PPV, with them believing they were going to see over a dozen new Champions crowned. I even looked around online myself... never saw it mentioned and I even asked here last night!

They spent the last couple of weeks saying that there would be one official champion at the end of the match. It was definately mentioned plenty of times (multiple times on each show, whenever a video to hype the Scrambles were shown).

Anyway, I generally enjoyed the show, but can't really comment on the women's match (went to get some food). The scrambles were booked well largely, although Jeff did look like an idiot and there was no reason for Punk to be pulled out. That said, I love that Jericho is finally a World Champion again so s'all good. This was the first WWE show in a while when I've actually cared about who won (I was really pulling for Matt, TBK, Punk (once he got pulled out, I didn't care until Y2J came out, then I was begging he'd win) and the tag champs, and by the mid-point of the HBK-Y2J match I really wanted to see Jericho get beat (even though he's currently one of my favourite wrestlers and I much prefer him to Michaels)). Great show overall I thought.

[Ransik]

They spent the last couple of weeks saying that there would be one official champion at the end of the match. It was definately mentioned plenty of times (multiple times on each show, whenever a video to hype the Scrambles were shown).

Yeah I did hear those promos... but they did also say several times very loudly; "For instance if Kane were to pin Punk than he would be the Champion."

There were several newsites the last couple weeks that couldn't figure it out either... it would've taken 5 seconds to say; "The Title doesn't change hands during the bout but the man who scores the last pinfall before time runs out is the official Champion."

I'm sure I'm not the only one who looked back at the awkward ending to the Hardcore Title Scramble (can't think of what they called it) when the Title changed hands over a dozen times.

[RKO_HBK]

Yeah I did hear those promos... but they did also say several times very loudly; "For instance if Kane were to pin Punk than he would be the Champion."

There were several newsites the last couple weeks that couldn't figure it out either... it would've taken 5 seconds to say; "The Title doesn't change hands during the bout but the man who scores the last pinfall before time runs out is the official Champion."

I'm sure I'm not the only one who looked back at the awkward ending to the Hardcore Title Scramble (can't think of what they called it) when the Title changed hands over a dozen times.

I don't remember hearing that Kane quote or anything similar (certainly not at any point in the go-home week). To me it seemed fairly well explained that someone would become a current champion but it was not recognised as a title reign. But meh, guess they can't please everyone.

[Self]

I heard a lot of people (not from this board) say that the Scramble matches were terrible ideas, and that no one would buy this PPV. Well I can't speak for anyone else, but the fact that I stay up until 2am trying to watch this damn thing speaks for how much I was into it. I failed, but I didn't do that for Summerslam, that's for sure.

I've seen a few matches, the ones I was interested in, and yeah, it was fine. I would have like the Scramble matches to have had a little more flash. A little more "You are watching something different" feeling. I don't know what, they just seemed very vanilla to me.

I thought Matt was going to win, MVP was going to win, and then, after both previous champions lost, perennial survivor CM Punk was going to survive again. That's how I read it, and I'm happy to be wrong. I like surprises in my wrestling.

I've gone off The Brian Kendrick. I like the character. I love the name. Ezekial is picking up speed. I don't like Brian Kendrick as a worker. He just... I don't know. He's very scrappy, and his kicks make that nice 'clap' sound, but don't look like they connect. He's noticeably small, and oddly enough that isn't working for me. It's nice to see Jeff being able to do some power moves on him, and I still love the gimmick, but as a worker... He's gone down in my book. I also find his completely bare arms odd. Dude. Get some wrist tape. (Personal grievance. Don't know why it annoys me)

Hunter is still champ. I have no problems with that, and with Jeff booked so strongly, I give it a thumbs up.

Jericho as champion is awesome. I don't watch RAW much (schedule issues) but I always make sure I Youtube those Michaels/Jericho things. Pure gold.

So good show. Didn't blow my mind, but I'm sure if I'd watched it live, I would have been happy I did it. I'm not sure I would have been happy paying for it though.

P.S. I've never liked Sting, but I'm totally supporting him in TNA right now. Joe & AJ are such whiny pussies, how can I not be? Dixie needs to hire some better writers.

[Prophet]

P.S. I've never liked Sting, but I'm totally supporting him in TNA right now. Joe & AJ are such whiny pussies, how can I not be? Dixie needs to hire some better writers.

I dunno, this new Sting could work for me. I mean, look at this promo, showing just how sick and tired Sting is of the younger generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j65DpagyhI

[G-Prime]

I dunno, this new Sting could work for me. I mean, look at this promo, showing just how sick and tired Sting is of the younger generation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2j65DpagyhI

I lol'ed.

[Franchise22]

triple h haters:

he didnt hold a title for 3 years.....

he finally gets it back and its only been a few months and its "omgz the HHH is da wurstz hes hoggind da spotlight!!11!11"

i believe he put hardy over clean.....made him look strong in chamber......didnt win the rumble........didnt win at mania (has taker lost at mania? nope...back to back mania title wins? yup).......

like it or not, hes the most over guy on the roster if not at least top 3 (cena, taker). get off the haterade......


im not even a big HHH fan but the stupid whining in regards to him is mind numbing.....

[Eisen-verse]

triple h haters:

he didnt hold a title for 3 years.....

he finally gets it back and its only been a few months and its "omgz the HHH is da wurstz hes hoggind da spotlight!!11!11"

i believe he put hardy over clean.....made him look strong in chamber......didnt win the rumble........didnt win at mania (has taker lost at mania? nope...back to back mania title wins? yup).......

like it or not, hes the most over guy on the roster if not at least top 3 (cena, taker). get off the haterade......


im not even a big HHH fan but the stupid whining in regards to him is mind numbing.....

Amen. Hunter is the "Franchise" of the WWE if there is a figure in the company right now.

[Tempest Kane]

It dosnt matter...

Bottom line is this regards triple h and the championship. Yeah he might very well be the most over guy in the company and after what must be a 12 year push now i would bloody hope he's over by now ... god knows they tried a million diffrent things with him to get him to this point, i did not come naturaly, (-; So well done to him.

But to use Taker and or Cena as an argument as to why he should be allowed YET ANOTHER title reign at the top? lol, since both the aformentioned guy's are also in the catagory Triple H is in, OVER-USED. OVER-DONE. Their is a reason why Hogan worked in the 80/90's ... once he had hogged the lime light, he pulled a Rock and fck'd off for a few years before he did anything major again.

Its been a fair few years since i have been able to watch the WWE and see someone get a legitimate title reign at the top who wasnt one of the 3 above coz simply creative isnt intreasted, if Cena isnt the top guy... Trip is.... if trip isnt the top guy, taker is... its an old format that they only mix up to put Randy over now and again.

Im not saying other people dont get titles, sure they do... nobody titles. or they get interm title reigns for a few weeks while trip goes to the south of france for a holiday or whatever.

Bottom line of it all is we have seen it before. WWE has been spitting the same storys, with the same crap for the last few years and just switchs the story lines around the roster like they came out of a hat with a fluffy bunny...

Im not sayin russo is any better... but atleast when it comes to the crunch Jeff will stick his nose in & sort it out. And if nothing else you can take solace in the fact russo has zero control over the knockouts, witch btw.. put on a better amount of tv than wwe's whole show do right now. Go TNA Knockouts.

Its time to create some new stars, and i dont mean its time to take a lower-mid card guy like Shelton and make him an upper midcard guy like shelton.

I mean its time for Taker to go enjoy his young wife and leave with his streaks broken to some young lad.
Its time for Cena to go make some films for a few years or atleast continue to work with the now dead and defunct WWE tag team ranks.
Its time for trip to open up that wrestling academy in his back yard and go home.

We need some geniunly new people to take hold of that show and have their era, keep it fresh

coz watching the Attitude era in its old peoples home is not what i had in mind...

[scorpion]

triple h haters:

he didnt hold a title for 3 years.....

he finally gets it back and its only been a few months and its "omgz the HHH is da wurstz hes hoggind da spotlight!!11!11"

i believe he put hardy over clean.....made him look strong in chamber......didnt win the rumble........didnt win at mania (has taker lost at mania? nope...back to back mania title wins? yup).......

like it or not, hes the most over guy on the roster if not at least top 3 (cena, taker). get off the haterade......


im not even a big HHH fan but the stupid whining in regards to him is mind numbing.....



Amen. Hunter is the "Franchise" of the WWE if there is a figure in the company right now.

The internet smarks aren't the only ones irritated with Triple H. Its one thing to win matches and be the champion, its another to bury people verbally and cut promos no one else would be allowed to. The locker room in general is not to happy with Triple H.

[Franchise22]

Bottom line is this regards triple h and the championship. Yeah he might very well be the most over guy in the company and after what must be a 12 year push now i would bloody hope he's over by now ... god knows they tried a million diffrent things with him to get him to this point, i did not come naturaly, (-; So well done to him.

But to use Taker and or Cena as an argument as to why he should be allowed YET ANOTHER title reign at the top? lol, since both the aformentioned guy's are also in the catagory Triple H is in, OVER-USED. OVER-DONE. Their is a reason why Hogan worked in the 80/90's ... once he had hogged the lime light, he pulled a Rock and fck'd off for a few years before he did anything major again.

Its been a fair few years since i have been able to watch the WWE and see someone get a legitimate title reign at the top who wasnt one of the 3 above coz simply creative isnt intreasted, if Cena isnt the top guy... Trip is.... if trip isnt the top guy, taker is... its an old format that they only mix up to put Randy over now and again.

Im not saying other people dont get titles, sure they do... nobody titles. or they get interm title reigns for a few weeks while trip goes to the south of france for a holiday or whatever.

Bottom line of it all is we have seen it before. WWE has been spitting the same storys, with the same crap for the last few years and just switchs the story lines around the roster like they came out of a hat with a fluffy bunny...

Im not sayin russo is any better... but atleast when it comes to the crunch Jeff will stick his nose in & sort it out. And if nothing else you can take solace in the fact russo has zero control over the knockouts, witch btw.. put on a better amount of tv than wwe's whole show do right now. Go TNA Knockouts.

Its time to create some new stars, and i dont mean its time to take a lower-mid card guy like Shelton and make him an upper midcard guy like shelton.

I mean its time for Taker to go enjoy his young wife and leave with his streaks broken to some young lad.
Its time for Cena to go make some films for a few years or atleast continue to work with the now dead and defunct WWE tag team ranks.
Its time for trip to open up that wrestling academy in his back yard and go home.

We need some geniunly new people to take hold of that show and have their era, keep it fresh

coz watching the Attitude era in its old peoples home is not what i had in mind...

point 1: you said you " i hope hes over, theyve tried a million things ect" hes done well in each of his roles. IC champ as a snob, DX with HBK, Leader of DX redux, "My time" run, evolution run, the game......really, everything hes done has been over as a face OR heel. so please, spare me the "nothing comes natural or hasnt worked" bit.

point 2: New, young stars? hmmmm who are the tag champs on raw? cody and dibiase......IC champ? was kofi now santino......CM punk just was champ, now a vet in jericho (when was he last champ?) on smackdown......tag champs? those neat little edge heads..... US champ? shelton (who had a program with trips and beat him cleanly a number of times), before that? M hardy, and mvp before that..... being led by a vet in triple h who hadnt held a title in 3 years previously..... not to mention cena is still young (in his prime you want him to pack it up and make movies, start an academy lol) orton is still young and entering his prime, J hardy (who trips has helped get over and make legitimate) and if it wasnt for violations and/or injuries you wouldve seen more of kennedy. if it wasnt for violations MIB most likely wouldve been the beloved j hardy, and despite that hes still getting a decent push. THE brian kendrick...... being pushed....kozlov....being pushed.....Raw has evan bourne starting to make a splash (pardon the pun), not to mention calitos brother and manu just made his debut......oh there are more.....but i think ive made my point....

whew....these young guys are really piling up! did you miss them? or for the sake of complaining, overlook them like a politician in a presidential race ignorning facts......

[The Shape]

I'm going to ignore most of what Tempest said, he doesn't seem to understand the basic concept of people will pay to see Taker and Cena, you can't just build someone up to that level overnight. And there's a great blend of youth and more experienced talent at the moment, to complain about that just shows you're running out of ideas.

I agree however that Triple H as a face is completely tiresome, and him being champion as a face utterly pointless. Not only does he not need the belt in order to draw, but there's no angle behind his title reign, he's just champion for the sake of it, because he wants to be. Smackdown needs a Jeff hardy reign and I damn well hope it comes soon.

[Franchise22]

I'm going to ignore most of what Tempest said, he doesn't seem to understand the basic concept of people will pay to see Taker and Cena, you can't just build someone up to that level overnight. And there's a great blend of youth and more experienced talent at the moment, to complain about that just shows you're running out of ideas.

I agree however that Triple H as a face is completely tiresome, and him being champion as a face utterly pointless. Not only does he not need the belt in order to draw, but there's no angle behind his title reign, he's just champion for the sake of it, because he wants to be. Smackdown needs a Jeff hardy reign and I damn well hope it comes soon.

i like hardy, but hes too unreliable to put the belt on. he gets into trouble with wellness violations too often. i dont see him getting the title unless its a transition reign that lasts a month or so. even that seems a stretch due to his wellness issues.

im a big believer that the best and biggest draws (and reliable) should be champion. but thats just me. but i do agree with you on the point there should be some story driven aspects to the reign.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm going to ignore most of what Tempest said, he doesn't seem to understand the basic concept of people will pay to see Taker and Cena, you can't just build someone up to that level overnight. And there's a great blend of youth and more experienced talent at the moment, to complain about that just shows you're running out of ideas.

I agree however that Triple H as a face is completely tiresome, and him being champion as a face utterly pointless. Not only does he not need the belt in order to draw, but there's no angle behind his title reign, he's just champion for the sake of it, because he wants to be. Smackdown needs a Jeff hardy reign and I damn well hope it comes soon.

i like hardy, but hes too unreliable to put the belt on. he gets into trouble with wellness violations too often. i dont see him getting the title unless its a transition reign that lasts a month or so. even that seems a stretch due to his wellness issues.

im a big believer that the best and biggest draws (and reliable) should be champion. but thats just me. but i do agree with you on the point there should be some story driven aspects to the reign.

I see both points pretty easily. I'd be worried about putting the belt on Jeff too.

I do see why HHH had the belt though. There is a lack of "Edge" right now, for one thing. The other big name is already involved in a story (Taker). So I don't dissagree with HHH Having the belt right now.

I do aggree that there needs to be a story coming up with him though. I thought something was going to come out of the MVP thing, but nothing so far. I don't know what's planned there, but I seen some great potential for a MVP/HHH feud, or even those two working together. They did great off each other in that promo against Edge.

I know HHH Obviously has a thing for Jeff. I just don't know if he has enough influence to make WWE make that jump (Putting the belt on Jeff). It's been obvious to me for a while that Jeff is HHH's personal project. IT is really a shame some of the folks putting HHH down don't seem to recognize that. Jeff is almost single handedly over the way he is now, because of the things HHH has been doing, all the way back to when Jeff beat him in that "Fluke" match on raw.

[Ransik]

I can agree with the views on HHH to a certain extent.

Yes... when he finds someone he gets along with rather well he wants them pushed to the top with him. We've seen it happen, but the problem is just that, it's only his friends that get pushed.

As for HHH as a wrestler, I never have nor will I ever see what's so special about him that has people calling him a "legend". He's a very average in-ring worker and his mic skills are above average yes... but I still fail to see the views on others where IF he hadn't married the boss' daughter he would still be in the same exact position he's in now. Hunter has never drawn numbers and is in TEW terms an "Independent Name" outside the wrestling business.

He's also a very selfish individual and has more times than not gotten himself put over when it wasn't in the best interest of everyone involved and the company... Booker, RVD, Jericho, Kane... the list goes on and on.

Yeah he didn't have the Title for a very long time... he was also starting up his family during that point and was most likely more concentrated on being a new father than "the Main Event".

I'm sorry.... but hundreds of debates and arguments... I STILL see nothing special about Triple H as a performer. He got a very lucky break and that was that. I know he's very passionate about the business and a human encyclopedia about it... but just because Flair endorses him as "the greatest of this generation" doesn't make it fact. Friends always see each other as being better than they really are. Yeah Hunter has charisma... yeah he has talent... but he's not the greatest of this generation nor is he even close.

[The Shape]

Yeah Hunter has charisma... yeah he has talent... but he's not the greatest of this generation nor is he even close.

Out of interest, who would you argue is?

I think to call him an average in ring worker is silly...when he wants to, he can put on a fantastic story-driven match, the problem is when he's a babyface he usually just destroys people.

Also when exactly did he first start dating Steph? Because he sure went from having Warrior no-sell the Pedigree to rising star in DX pretty quickly...xD

[Destiny]

Out of interest, who would you argue is?

I think to call him an average in ring worker is silly...when he wants to, he can put on a fantastic story-driven match, the problem is when he's a babyface he usually just destroys people.

Also when exactly did he first start dating Steph? Because he sure went from having Warrior no-sell the Pedigree to rising star in DX pretty quickly...xD

I'd argue that more people were annoyed at Hunter circa 2002-2004 when he was a heel.

[Franchise22]

Hunter has never drawn numbers and is in TEW terms an "Independent Name" outside the wrestling business.



i never have gotten into your anti-wwe debates, but seriously, this is the dumbest thing you have ever posted. NEVER drawn numbers....really?

and independant name....wow. it doesnt matter what his name is outside of wrestling. there are like 3 or 4 people ever who have serious mainstream attention. it matters what his name is in wrestling, and his name can and does bring numbers. it does sell merchandise. like it or not.

[Destiny]

i never have gotten into your anti-wwe debates, but seriously, this is the dumbest thing you have ever posted. NEVER drawn numbers....really?

and independant name....wow. it doesnt matter outside of wrestling what his name is outside of wrestling. there are like 3 people ever who have serious mainstream attention.

I agree, in the sense that in TEW terms Triple H would definately be a major International Superstar. Besides, that's not even the point, as we aren't discussing Triple H's impact on any other field other than professional wrestling.

[The Shape]

I'd argue that more people were annoyed at Hunter circa 2002-2004 when he was a heel.

Well...a heel picking apart a babyface furthers stories and can get people over. And it leaves the crowd wanting to see revenge. It's MEANT to piss people off. Whereas a face squashing everyone nowadays just makes no sense and helps nobody, and the crowd eventually tire of it.

[Self]

By some standards, Triple H isn't anything too special. His matches are kinda slow, methodical, and he suffers from 5-moves-of-doom. However, that's pretty much everyone in WWE. Triple H is a product of his environment. If you don't like the WWE style, you're not going to like his in-ring work, because he's just a polished version of that style. I love watching X-Division stuff, but there's always that fear of whether they're going to screw up the next spot. Not so with Trips and his basic style. It works for him.

I kinda like Hunter right now. I like the way he talks. I find 50% of his jokes funny (more than most wrestlers) and I like his 5-moves-of-Doom. When he said "I'm going to be champion for like the next century" I popped huge. I thought it was hilarious. Even more so when I heard internet fans bitching about it. Triple H knows that everyone knows he married the Boss's daughter, and he likes playing with that. I'm by no means WWE's target audience, but that amuses me.

Don't worry, I'm not all sunshine and puppy dogs... I don't think he would be as high as he is now, had he not married Stephanie. I think he's be pretty damn high though.

I don't quite get him as a face. He amuses me, sure, but I don't see why everyone else likes him... Except for maybe the Man Utd. factor, where fans like to support the winning team. By being a tank, Hunter forces those fans to support him. It's a perfectly acceptable strategy.

And personally... I'm not going to support him in 90% of matches. I just don't feel that connection to him. Jeff, MVP, The Brian Kendrick... I just identify with those characters more, and will always support them in favour of The Game. However, just because I don't personally feel the desire to mark out for the Pedigree, doesn't mean I want him gone.

Kinda dull title reign so far though... Let's hope this Jeff thing develops. I don't care if he did drugs. I'm a Hardy mark. I want Jeff to have a big first World Title win!

[Destiny]

Kinda dull title reign so far though... Let's hope this Jeff thing develops. I don't care if he did drugs. I'm a Hardy mark. I want Jeff to have a big first World Title win!

I'm especially glad that Hardy's win at Unforgiven didn't officially count as him winning his first title, as that should be saved for a special occasion.

[Astil]

I'm especially glad that Hardy's win at Unforgiven didn't officially count as him winning his first title, as that should be saved for a special occasion.

Im hoping for WM

[Ransik]

i never have gotten into your anti-wwe debates, but seriously, this is the dumbest thing you have ever posted. NEVER drawn numbers....really?

and independant name....wow. it doesnt matter what his name is outside of wrestling. there are like 3 or 4 people ever who have serious mainstream attention. it matters what his name is in wrestling, and his name can and does bring numbers. it does sell merchandise. like it or not.

Not surprised yet another "you're nothing but anti-WWE" post was made.

The whole time Trips was the top heel on RAW... the numbers were lower than they are today with no direction to the program and booking on the fly. His big showdown with Kane where Kane lost his mask... the whole Katie Vick thing... drew smaller numbers than the throw-away Punk vs. JBL match did a few weeks ago.

3 or 4 people? Undertaker... Andre The Giant... Hulk Hogan.... HBK.... The Rock... Steve Austin.... Bret Hart.... Sting.... Ultimate Warrior... I can go on an on. There are TONS more wrestlers known outside of wrestling than Hunter. It has nothing to do with media, TV or movies. These wrestlers were known because of who they are and their gimmicks before any of them got into a movie or on a TV show. Heck even Jerry Lawler is more well known outside of wrestling than Triple H is! You can go look at Trip's big "dominance" runs and compare them to numbers today. It may not be a big difference... but the numbers before he was on top and the numbers when he was out of the spotlight average to a higher result.

Yes... that may have been because Austin and Rock were out of the picture at the time... but while Hunter was an IC Champ trying to hold DX together the WWF was booming and during his entire run on top the numbers were about half that... and there about .4-.8 higher today than when he was on top all the time.

You can talk to me like I'm an ignorant little tool... but please don't treat me like I'm stupid.

[Ransik]

Out of interest, who would you argue is?

I think to call him an average in ring worker is silly...when he wants to, he can put on a fantastic story-driven match, the problem is when he's a babyface he usually just destroys people.

Also when exactly did he first start dating Steph? Because he sure went from having Warrior no-sell the Pedigree to rising star in DX pretty quickly...xD

Out of this generation? Honestly I'm not sure... depends on how you want to look at it. If you mean "active wrestler" there's Undertaker easily... he's been half crippled at the time of his greatest and most memorable moments.

But if we're talking about a certain year to date... it depends on where you want to start.

Or for age...

[Ransik]

I agree, in the sense that in TEW terms Triple H would definately be a major International Superstar. Besides, that's not even the point, as we aren't discussing Triple H's impact on any other field other than professional wrestling.

My TEW example was how popular he is outside the business, not in it.

[Ransik]

By some standards, Triple H isn't anything too special. His matches are kinda slow, methodical, and he suffers from 5-moves-of-doom. However, that's pretty much everyone in WWE. Triple H is a product of his environment. If you don't like the WWE style, you're not going to like his in-ring work, because he's just a polished version of that style. I love watching X-Division stuff, but there's always that fear of whether they're going to screw up the next spot. Not so with Trips and his basic style. It works for him.

I kinda like Hunter right now. I like the way he talks. I find 50% of his jokes funny (more than most wrestlers) and I like his 5-moves-of-Doom. When he said "I'm going to be champion for like the next century" I popped huge. I thought it was hilarious. Even more so when I heard internet fans bitching about it. Triple H knows that everyone knows he married the Boss's daughter, and he likes playing with that. I'm by no means WWE's target audience, but that amuses me.

Don't worry, I'm not all sunshine and puppy dogs... I don't think he would be as high as he is now, had he not married Stephanie. I think he's be pretty damn high though.

I don't quite get him as a face. He amuses me, sure, but I don't see why everyone else likes him... Except for maybe the Man Utd. factor, where fans like to support the winning team. By being a tank, Hunter forces those fans to support him. It's a perfectly acceptable strategy.

And personally... I'm not going to support him in 90% of matches. I just don't feel that connection to him. Jeff, MVP, The Brian Kendrick... I just identify with those characters more, and will always support them in favour of The Game. However, just because I don't personally feel the desire to mark out for the Pedigree, doesn't mean I want him gone.

Kinda dull title reign so far though... Let's hope this Jeff thing develops. I don't care if he did drugs. I'm a Hardy mark. I want Jeff to have a big first World Title win!

Honestly when Hunter is just being himself on the mic... that's when I enjoy his performances. When he's amplifying Paul Levesque.... I love listening to him because he's speaking from the heart and joking about reality.

But "I'm The Game-uh and I'm the Cerebral Assassin who will kick your ass-uh" is very boring and repetitive and I've never held any interest nor cared about him repeating his catch-phrases over and over. Nothing is more annoying than a wrestler cutting the same promo day in and day out rather than verbally telling a story to lay out the angle. A pedigree here and there... pick up the sledgehammer for the guy to run away in fright... BORING. And how many times has Trips destroyed the Titan-Tron now with the hammer as an excuse to bring in a new one?

[Franchise22]

Not surprised yet another "you're nothing but anti-WWE" post was made.

The whole time Trips was the top heel on RAW... the numbers were lower than they are today with no direction to the program and booking on the fly. His big showdown with Kane where Kane lost his mask... the whole Katie Vick thing... drew smaller numbers than the throw-away Punk vs. JBL match did a few weeks ago.

3 or 4 people? Undertaker... Andre The Giant... Hulk Hogan.... HBK.... The Rock... Steve Austin.... Bret Hart.... Sting.... Ultimate Warrior... I can go on an on. There are TONS more wrestlers known outside of wrestling than Hunter. It has nothing to do with media, TV or movies. These wrestlers were known because of who they are and their gimmicks before any of them got into a movie or on a TV show. Heck even Jerry Lawler is more well known outside of wrestling than Triple H is! You can go look at Trip's big "dominance" runs and compare them to numbers today. It may not be a big difference... but the numbers before he was on top and the numbers when he was out of the spotlight average to a higher result.

Yes... that may have been because Austin and Rock were out of the picture at the time... but while Hunter was an IC Champ trying to hold DX together the WWF was booming and during his entire run on top the numbers were about half that... and there about .4-.8 higher today than when he was on top all the time.

You can talk to me like I'm an ignorant little tool... but please don't treat me like I'm stupid.


when i said 3 or 4 people, i intpreted you meant mainstream. as in media ect. so i would still be correct. and i can argue HHH the way you meant it to be because when i talk to former wrestling fans who watched during the biggest boom ever in wrestling (attitude era) HHH is always mentioned along with the others from the era. you cant look past the impact of DX, the impact of evolution (development of orton and batista) or his merch sales, or the PPV buys. the dx crotch chop was the most popular gesture to the point it made mainstream news. HHH was even on american idol lol. and to compare now to the biggest boom period ever is unfair. a shaved rabbitt with missing teeth wouldve been popular if it was in the wwe or wcw during the attitude era.

[DaMegaFish]

Im surprised so many people still let Ransik get on their nerves. People sound like they want to lynch him lol.

On a side note, when you simplify Triple H, I totally see his appeal. He is big, he kicks peoples ass and he spits water, thats total badass and thats why people like him.

[cappyboy]

Im surprised so many people still let Ransik get on their nerves. People sound like they want to lynch him lol.


Can you imagine if he played one of the Mafia games sometime? I bet it would be the most casually observed game we've had at the site just to see if Ransik did in fact get lynched.

[Destiny]

Im surprised so many people still let Ransik get on their nerves. People sound like they want to lynch him lol.

On a side note, when you simplify Triple H, I totally see his appeal. He is big, he kicks peoples ass and he spits water, thats total badass and thats why people like him.

I can see Triple H's appeal. In fact, I think I'd be more of a fan of him if I wasn't aware of all the pull he has backstage.

[infinitywpi]

3 or 4 people? Undertaker... Andre The Giant... Hulk Hogan.... HBK.... The Rock... Steve Austin.... Bret Hart.... Sting.... Ultimate Warrior... I can go on an on.

Let's see, here...

Undertaker? Debatable. Not really 'known outside wrestling' so much as 'fondly remembered by people who stopped watching wrestling over a decade ago'.

Andre? I'll give you that. Same as Hogan.

HBK? Being hated by Canada doesn't count as being known outside wrestling.

The Rock? Yeap, he's Hollywood now, so he's known outside wrestling.

Steve Austin? C'mon, guest-starring of Nash Bridges, a minor role in a decent movie and a starring role in a bad movie don't really count.

Bret Hart? See the comment for HBK, above. Canada doesn't count. :)

Sting? He's known outside wrestling? I think you're mistaking him for The Crow. That wasn't Sting in the movies.

Ultimate Warrior? He ranted on C-Span... other than that, what's he done outside wrestling?

Meanwhile, to compare: Triple H guest-starred on the Drew Carey Show and had a role in Blade 3, and minor bits in a couple other shows. I'd say that puts him on the level level as Austin on the 'outside wrestling' meter.

[W3LSHY]

Bottom line is this regards triple h and the championship. Yeah he might very well be the most over guy in the company and after what must be a 12 year push now i would bloody hope he's over by now ... god knows they tried a million diffrent things with him to get him to this point, i did not come naturaly, (-;

I mean its time for Taker to go enjoy his young wife and leave with his streaks broken to some young lad.
Its time for Cena to go make some films for a few years or atleast continue to work with the now dead and defunct WWE tag team ranks.
Its time for trip to open up that wrestling academy in his back yard and go home.

Let me start by saying, Ransik, in all due respect, I meen this in all fairness, but I feel I speak for a few when I say when it comes to arguments like this, I just wouldn't bother, because your points are biased, and generally pretty false. No disrespect, but you need to shut up.

I started reading this point, and this just stuck out at me as needing to be quoted.

You're saying that it takes time and build up for people to get to the main event, ie. Triple H, yet you want to instantly put some curtain jurker in the main event? That's being hypocritical.

Not only that, but the biggest draws in recent WWE history, and take them completely out of not only the main event, but in 2 cases, retire completely.

Mate, you are nuts.

[Greg2511]

Triple H is over as ****....is it because he's forced himself down our throats? no, he has always been over as ****.

And for anyone to say that he's never drawn numbers is just plain ****ing stupid. It doesn't even deserve an intelligent response.

If you aren't entertained by HHH fine. I respect that. Not everyone likes the same stuff. I'm not gonna sit here and tell you why you should like him. But god damnit I can tell you why you should respect him. Being a wrestler yourself it should be obvious to you. The man can work. Yeah sometimes he has been known to make people look bad. But more often than not he works like a madman and puts people over left right and centre. You don't need to beat the guy to get put over. Just being in the same segment as him sometimes means you are getting put over. In just the past few weeks I can think of MVP, Shelton Benjamin, Jeff Hardy, The Brian Kendrick, ZEKE, who have all been made to look great by Hunter. And not JUST in the scramble.

Some of those guys get no crowd reaction normally, but when in a seg with Trips and since then are getting fairly solid reactions. He is putting guys on the map.

I guess you're still mad he didn't put RVD over? News flash!!!! Look what happened when RVD did finally get the ball. And I've heard him in shoots talk about how that was no where near the first time he'd been busted with weed, just the first time it mattered cos he was the champion. And the guy almost crushed Trips' Trachea in the chamber match.

The only decision I can think of that he has ever made that was bad for business was beating Booker T at mania. And when it comes to bad decisions, if something is really bad for business Vince will tell him what's what. Vince seems to trust Trips opinion, and from the books I have read and interviews I have seen that dates waaaay back to long before Stephanie and he were dating. And Vince knows what he's doing.

And he can tell a story in that ring like no other man can. You don't like him fine? But to say that he has never drawn or that he only looks out for himself and his friends is stupid.

In closing, I'm totally not suprised to see another "Not surprised yet another "you're nothing but anti-WWE" post was made." post was made. Get over yourself, if your gonna make anti WWE posts, people will call you out on it. If they are intellectual fine. If they are making ludicrous claims such as Triple H doesn't produce numbers, then your gonna get called out. Believe that.

Oh, and seriously if you compare the numbers from now to the numbers in the Attitude Era when wrestling was at its hottest ONE MORE TIME. Ima be mad.

[scorpion]

Let's see, here...
Steve Austin? C'mon, guest-starring of Nash Bridges, a minor role in a decent movie and a starring role in a bad movie don't really count.


I have to call BS on this one. Stone Cold, is very well known outside of wrestling. My family and friends who don't watch wrestling all know who he is.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

Let's see, here...

Undertaker? Debatable. Not really 'known outside wrestling' so much as 'fondly remembered by people who stopped watching wrestling over a decade ago'.

Andre? I'll give you that. Same as Hogan.

HBK? Being hated by Canada doesn't count as being known outside wrestling.

The Rock? Yeap, he's Hollywood now, so he's known outside wrestling.

Steve Austin? C'mon, guest-starring of Nash Bridges, a minor role in a decent movie and a starring role in a bad movie don't really count.

Bret Hart? See the comment for HBK, above. Canada doesn't count. :)

Sting? He's known outside wrestling? I think you're mistaking him for The Crow. That wasn't Sting in the movies.

Ultimate Warrior? He ranted on C-Span... other than that, what's he done outside wrestling?

Meanwhile, to compare: Triple H guest-starred on the Drew Carey Show and had a role in Blade 3, and minor bits in a couple other shows. I'd say that puts him on the level level as Austin on the 'outside wrestling' meter.

I think we're all forgetting Kevin Nash. 2nd only to the Rock at the box office.

[Destiny]

I think we're all forgetting Kevin Nash. 2nd only to the Rock at the box office.

Seriously? I can't think of anything Nash has been in. Did anyone catch Khali in "Get Smart"?

[Franchise22]

Seriously? I can't think of anything Nash has been in. Did anyone catch Khali in "Get Smart"?

bit part in the punisher, bit part in grandmas boy, was super shredder in ninja turtles 2. in those 3 movies combined hes had about 30 min of screen time. i cant think of anything else hes been in, cant even think of anything he was featured in....

[scorpion]

bit part in the punisher, bit part in grandmas boy, was super shredder in ninja turtles 2. in those 3 movies combined hes had about 30 min of screen time. i cant think of anything else hes been in, cant even think of anything he was featured in....

The Longest Yard

[Destiny]

The Longest Yard

I still haven't seen that the whole way through, but with Goldberg, Khali, Nash and Austin all apparently being in it I really should give it a watch.

[Ransik]

Let me start by saying, Ransik, in all due respect, I meen this in all fairness, but I feel I speak for a few when I say when it comes to arguments like this, I just wouldn't bother, because your points are biased, and generally pretty false. No disrespect, but you need to shut up.

I started reading this point, and this just stuck out at me as needing to be quoted.

You're saying that it takes time and build up for people to get to the main event, ie. Triple H, yet you want to instantly put some curtain jurker in the main event? That's being hypocritical.

Not only that, but the biggest draws in recent WWE history, and take them completely out of not only the main event, but in 2 cases, retire completely.

Mate, you are nuts.

Well umm.... considering I didn't make that post...

[SuperOwens]

Interesting debate :)

On pure wrestling ability I like Hunter. Sure he performs a fairly limited move set, but what heavyweights doesn't?

Never been a Flair fan but people consider him to be the greatest. If you use him as a yardstick id say Trips would be in the top 20.

[Astil]

Back when I was 10 (1998) I was not a wrestling fan. Here's who I knew on sight:

Stone Cold
Rock
Flair
Hogan
D-X (Not who was in it mind you)
Savage (Snap into a Slim Jim!)

If you mentioned these names I might be able to say "Oh, yeah they exist"

Undertaker
Bret Hart
HBK
HHH
nWo (Not who was in it, besides Hogan)
Sting
DDP
Andre
Nikoli Volkov (Because my cousin always called me that)


So that's how I seperate between the "known outside wrestling" category.

HHH is in the "eh, they exist" category.

He should be main eventing and should have the belt, imho.

[djthefunkchris]

I can see Triple H's appeal. In fact, I think I'd be more of a fan of him if I wasn't aware of all the pull he has backstage.
Who would you rather have that kind of pull?
I have to call BS on this one. Stone Cold, is very well known outside of wrestling. My family and friends who don't watch wrestling all know who he is.

My parents would think you were talking about Steve Austin, the six million dollar man.

The only reason anyone I know, that doesn't watch wrestling, knows who he is, is because of myself or someone else showing them who he is. Outside of that... Six million dollar man for the win.

[CQI13]

More to the point on the "pull" backstage: who's fault is it when people read about it? I remember watching what was it WM 19 (Booker & Triple H) with some friends that were not in the know. Really, none of us is in the know since we don't work for WWE. Regardless, a lot of them were pulling for Booker in that match. And they hated Triple H more just on the basis of the match (and the fact that he won/how he won). So if we didn't bother reading dirtsheets, the effect was the intended one. Triple H didn't get h is comeuppance so he was more hated than before. I'm not looking at where they went after the match as far as storylines, simply the result of the match itself.

I don't get to watch wrestling as much now (no cable), but I'll watch some TNA or WWE PPVs on DVD, and not knowing some spin on what people think goes on backstage, I find them very enjoyable.

[W3LSHY]

Well umm.... considering I didn't make that post...

Well considering the person who I was debating was quoted, it just happens that I had something to say to you aswell.