RAW (Spoilers)

[Eisen-verse]

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[Eisen-verse]

I never thought I'd say this but Orton sold that pretty well. The whole "I snapped" thing. It really seemed as if he was having an internal struggle after doing that.

How vicious of a kick was that though? wow. Last week's Sweet Chin Music on Cena looked wicked but this weeks "punt" by Orton just looked sick.

I'm actually finding myself starting to like Orton as a main guy.

[djthefunkchris]

I was so hoping he punted Stephanie too... Just would have been so classic.

[djthefunkchris]

So now what... Orton going to turn into "Stone Cold" Randy Orton?

[Eisen-verse]

I was so hoping he punted Stephanie too... Just would have been so classic.

I was half hoping he would look stressed about kicking McMahon and then as Steph was calling for help.. He runs up as everyone is huddled over vince and kicks her in the head too. hah. Would sell even more of him being a cold blooded killer type. However, this way it makes room for another side of Orton with what happened.

So now what... Orton going to turn into "Stone Cold" Randy Orton?

That's what It seemed like to me. but instead of it being SCSA and Vince... It may be leading into a Stephanie McMahon and Orton thing.

[Trell]

So now what... Orton going to turn into "Stone Cold" Randy Orton?


I think its gonna happen mainly for this reason. No matter how bad he was the week before he seems to get cheered more. and I remember thats what happend with Austin. so I think he will be like austin in the fact that he is no matter what he does, he's gonna get cheered.

[Tyler Gadzinski]

I think its gonna happen mainly for this reason. No matter how bad he was the week before he seems to get cheered more. and I remember thats what happend with Austin. so I think he will be like austin in the fact that he is no matter what he does, he's gonna get cheered.

Triple H, what?

[GatorBait19]

Orton has gotten better at almost everything and I doubt many would argue that

But as an Austin type of person I could oddly see, I mean Austin beat the crap out of everyone good or bad, he didn't care and that is what Orton pretty much does

And think about it, the two people in his crew have a weird connection to Austin

Ted's dad was his manger, and Austin had many battles with the Rhodes family

So why not push him in an Austin type of way

[Eisen-verse]

Orton has gotten better at almost everything and I doubt many would argue that

But as an Austin type of person I could oddly see, I mean Austin beat the crap out of everyone good or bad, he didn't care and that is what Orton pretty much does

And think about it, the two people in his crew have a weird connection to Austin

Ted's dad was his manger, and Austin had many battles with the Rhodes family

So why not push him in an Austin type of way

I don't know if they should push him like Austin outright but if you're talking about the bad ass who has no respect for authority and such then I say go for it. Orton is already known as being kind of a dick so the character could work pretty well for him.

The thing where he lacks in that respect is the ability to truly cut a memorable promo. Austin could do it at the drop of a hat. So it could be hard for them to give him a mega push like that.

However, if they pushed him with a young guy who has no respect for anyone but himself (McMahon's included)... then i'd buy into it.

[GatorBait19]

Alright then, here is a new question



Who will be the next wrestler? Now I will give 6 names from the past and I wonder who you think could be the next.


Steve Austin: Randy Orton

The Rock: ?

Hulk Hogan: John Cena

Randy Savage: Jay Lethal (I think he has done a great job with the gimmick)

Sting: ?

Ric Flair: ?




Now I know they are all recent but if you have other people in mind then through them in there

[djthefunkchris]

Alright then, here is a new question



Who will be the next wrestler? Now I will give 6 names from the past and I wonder who you think could be the next.


Steve Austin: Randy Orton

The Rock: ?

Hulk Hogan: John Cena

Randy Savage: Jay Lethal (I think he has done a great job with the gimmick)

Sting: ?

Ric Flair: ?




Now I know they are all recent but if you have other people in mind then through them in there

My take is different.

Steve Austin: Randy Orton

The Rock: John Cena

Hulk Hogan: No one has been in that area... if you include Cena, have to include Rock. Cena drops on a dime for anyone.

Randy Savage: Jay Lethal

Sting/Raven: Jeff Hardy

Ric Flair: Jack Swagger/Brian Kendricks (but he sucks).

[jbergey_2005]

Alright then, here is a new question



Who will be the next wrestler? Now I will give 6 names from the past and I wonder who you think could be the next.

Ill add one Roddy Piper:Santino Morella

Steve Austin: ? No one too original

The Rock: ?No one too much charisma Cena is kind of mix between Rock and Hogan

Hulk Hogan: John Cena(pretty much is him)

Randy Savage: Randy Orton(he reminds more of Savagethan anyone right now)

Sting: CM Punk

Ric Flair: Not his charisma but I like what John Morrison brings when hes on




Now I know they are all recent but if you have other people in mind then through them in there

...

[VTial]

Rick Rude: current John Morrison

Randy Orton: Cody Rhodes - Same athletic ability, same third generation lineage, same 2nd man to the big main eventer in a faction

(Heel) Owen Hart: Randy Orton - Contrary to what most people have said in this topic, the Attitude era Stone Cold was a tweener. He was no longer the Ringmaster during that transformation. He also fully transformed with the help of Bret who snapped and also became a tweener. No champion have yet done that for Orton. Owen Hart on the other hand, that guy was a heel when he was a heel and he also attacked everyone. Also came from a stint where he started out as a guy given a plate of opportunity and then just started to become meaner and meaner and more manipulative.

Tatanka: Batista

Honky Tonky Man: Santino Marella

Madusa: Michelle McCool

Goldust: Shelton Benjamin - Sure, Benjamin has no manager and less charisma but Goldust has less in-ring technical skills. Also both do their promos in the titantron screen then walk down the ramp. Both are also now pretty much highly touted gatekeepers at their time who were more over than when they were being pushed.

Bret Hart: Paul London - both got screwed for stupid reasons, both elevated their particular style despite being limited to 6 moves of doom, both were small guys (for their days) that has shown the potential to carry a promotion but never gets respected enough to be a sought after prospect that are given instant pushes

Vader: Samoa Joe - both big men who are starting to gain a reputation for being over no matter how lackluster their matches are; also both who are highly praised for being able to do stuff that most men their size couldn't do, both also had two similar major gimmick changes: 1st gimmick was a large and over big wrestler that does stuff other than power moves, 2nd gimmick was the same gimmick except cancel the losses and give them huge monstrous undefeated winning streaks and sell them as an even more over guy

Ken Shamrock: Kurt Angle - personal bias; having not seen the UFC when Ken made his way to the WWE, his movesets were a breathe of fresh air. Little surprise why up to this day I'm bored when I watch Angle. His modified Angle lock that was so highly praised by fans constantly gets countered in ways Shamrock's ankle lock wouldn't have been.

Bad-ass Taker: Big Show - based on how they approach their promos and their finisher change transition.

The Rock/X-Pac: The Miz - this one's a crap shoot. Both Miz and Rocky started out as guys who had the skills to wrestle but obviously people didn't respect their movesets and they just get heat from their stale gimmicks for some reason. Even today The Miz isn't really as over when wrestling without the help of Morrison but the guy has constantly surprised people with his singles matches including a brief match where he out-technical wrestled Benoit although Chris was already in his WWE 6 moves of doom post-championship run. That said, X-Pac also had the same stint. Highly charismatic. Could sell a decent to great promo even as the 1-2-3 Kid. Constantly surprised fans including popularizing the Bronco Buster into the X-Factor. Guy got stale though by fan perceptions and then got X-Pac heat.

Edit: My mistake. The Bronco Buster was a separate move. I remember X-Pac having so many trademark moves (for his time) that I didn't consider to check wikipedia until I remembered X-pac's finisher was called the X-Factor and it wasn't a Bronco Buster.

[The Shape]

Goldust/Shelton....no :P

[VTial]

Yes, he is. They specifically made the belt to attract gold like a magnet that they were able to use the materials to clone Goldust and resurrect the man.

You didn't think it was just a coincidence that Goldust started bothering Santino at around the time Shelton lost to Santino did you? ;)

[Self]

Batista = Ultimate Warrior... only, you know, better.

[djthefunkchris]

Batista = Ultimate Warrior... only, you know, better.

That's debateable.

Honestly think Warrior was just as good. The problem is that Warrior ended up thinking he was as good as he was portrayed. Pluss, he tried to be hard to understand... Where Batista is just plain hard to understand (weather or not he's mad, upset, happy, etc).

[Self]

You know what, to be honest I saw very little of Warrior's stuff. Maybe he was better than the internets let on. I know he played his character well enough, and his promos were awesomely bizarre.

I just didn't want the connection to sound like I was dissing Batista. I don't relate to the character, but I respect the performer.

[djthefunkchris]

You know what, to be honest I saw very little of Warrior's stuff. Maybe he was better than the internets let on. I know he played his character well enough, and his promos were awesomely bizarre.

I just didn't want the connection to sound like I was dissing Batista. I don't relate to the character, but I respect the performer.

He was a brawler, he didn't particularly have a strong looking clothesline, kind of like Batista's. He could pick just about anyone up and slam them (that was the thing back then).

Big moves, slow builds, etc. There isn't nothing that Batista does currently, that I don't think Warrior could have done back then... heck, nothing Batista does currently makes me think Warrior couldn't do it now. In fact, I think Batista should give a bit of Credit to warrior for stealing his rope shake.

Warrior was able to get the crowd going everybit as good as anyone back in his prime, from what I seen. Probably better then Batista to be honest.

I was not a fan of Warrior, but I am a fan of the Batista character.

[The Masked Orange]

You know what, to be honest I saw very little of Warrior's stuff. Maybe he was better than the internets let on. I know he played his character well enough, and his promos were awesomely bizarre.

I just didn't want the connection to sound like I was dissing Batista. I don't relate to the character, but I respect the performer.

Self? I'm ashamed of you, didn't want to diss batista.

I respect evry in ring performer, being an in-ring performer is extremely difficult.

What I don't respect is the push he is getting, he doesn't desrve all the title reigns he has gotten.

He can't properly cut a promo, he has just one expression, I'm Batista, and I will win.

I like people like Hardy and Orton and Jericho because they have so much to offer in their promo's, yes Hardy and Orton aren't that good either, but they are evolving, Batista hasn't changed since evolution, or since being deacon Batista.

Us sycophants like simple promos, but cutting the same old promo for just under a decade isn't the verge of exitement.

Batista was used to fill a void between Big Show and Triple H when Lesnar flew from the cuckoo nest, and to our bad luck, people started liking him.

[The Masked Orange]

Oh yeah, sycophants means "sicko fans", sorry but I was watching word up.

So sycophants is taking the mic outa Jericho, but now I'm using it to replace the words "general public". It's a Jerichoalism.

[justtxyank]

I actually think the Warrior gets a bad rap where he doesn't deserve it. His match with Hogan at WM was surprising entertaining. I thought he could give entertaining matches for the time.

To me what really hurt him was he never evolved at all, and when he came back in the mid-late 90s his matches were terrible and didn't mesh at all with an evolving wrestling scene.

[VTial]

To summarize:

The Ultimate Warrior was one of the most over wrestlers to ever milk the 5 moves of doom.

From Wikipedia:

* Finishing and signature moves
o Gorilla press drop[1]
o Running splash[1]
o Flying shoulder block[1]
o Multiple running clotheslines[1]
o Running powerslam

Batista is the pioneer of the 3 moves of doom:

Spear
Spinebuster
Batista Bomb


...or 4 moves if you count the rock-a-my-baby tilt a whirl lift he does at times or the "cause I don't know of any way to make this match look good while dishing out damage" clothesline transitions he often makes.

Actual Post:

Ultimate Warrior was better than Batista. Lex Luger WAS better than Batista.

This isn't factoring wrestling skills alone. Batista has a slight edge there.

The thing going against these three is that their styles aren't reliant on skills but on how well they entertain the crowd and make themselves look good.

To this end, Batista looks worse.

Name me one other huge mainstream power guy that makes the weakest powerbomb you've ever seen besides Batista?

At his weakest, small muscles Ultimate Warrior made his gorilla slam look more powerful than coming back from an injury Batista. There was even a stint of time when people wondered whether Batista could lift Taker in their feud because he looked so weak for his physique and his gimmick. Even Lex at least made the torture rack LOOK good.

With that said, Batista has the edge in overall wrestling because he injured less people than Warrior and he does better looking moves than Warrior in general (he relies on his other moves looking good so casual fans won't notice his weak looking powerbomb and inability to have any 6 moves of doom exciting) and he has a slight edge in selling moves than Luger but that's partially because Luger didn't need to make a career out of selling to his opponents to draw a match.

They're just two overall different beasts that people lump together because Batista does the rope shake.

Ultimate Warrior's claim to fame was that he was more powerful than anyone including Hulk Hogan and the Undertaker so that you would need to do something to beat him. He did this not just because he was a monster but because he was a human monster. He didn't no-sell many of the damages he took, he combined no-selling with activity as if he was channeling some other worldly energy to give him the power. The guy didn't just run at the start of the match, he constantly stomps his feet and his whole body language was energetic. If you guys saw the Warrior at his prime and felt the height of his popularity, it was like looking at a guy who's already Hulked Up even before the match started. There was none of these Batista getting beaten to a pulp by an intelligent fighter and wait!~ Thar she blows, Batista no-selling. Batista shaking the ropes. Batista thumbs down! Batistahhh Bomb! With the Warrior, it was more like the beginning of the end. Gorilla Press Slam. That's it. Ballgame. Those who know MMA would think Batista was Big Nog and Ultimate Warrior was Shogun to use as an analogy if you saw both guys at their best.

Fact is...

Batista looked to be the weakest physique power wrestler the WWE had have pushed to the mainstream. (This ignores lanky and large monsters like Khali btw)

Batista's promo making skills are way worse than the Warrior

Batista would not look good today as a main eventer if Lesnar and Luger at peak wrestling condition were in the title picture.

Batista only got to the top because Orton botched up and got injured (if I remember correctly)

This isn't to say I'm a Batista hater. I'm actually a fan of both him and the Ultimate Warrior so for the sake of objectivity:

Here's what Batista has over the Ultimate Warrior:

Batista is a more realistic seller than the Ultimate Warrior. He's so good, no other power wrestler comes to mind that can get himself over in a match by constantly getting beat up by smaller and weaker wrestlers until he hulks up for the Batista Bomb

Batista is much more versatile than The Ultimate Warrior. I actually think he can look as good as the British Bulldog technically if he were to focus on that more. His spears are some of the best looking because he looks like a modern amateur wrestler trying to take down his opponents rather than ram them. He angles his clothesline so well that you think it actually looks good rather than so bad from a casual fan perspective. When he's motivated, he is better at using his technical grapping skills than his power moves. (which all look horrible)

Batista has a better sense of wrestling psychology. Alot of the times, Warrior focuses too much on himself that he makes his opponent look worse than they are. Batista is the reverse in that he makes his opponent look good, he just doesn't have anything to make himself look good especially with his power style gimmick.

[wilts]

............Batista hasn't changed since evolution, or since being deacon Batista........
........but cutting the same old promo for just under a decade isn't the verge of exitement.

Below may or may not be my opinion, but for now we will just call it an observation.
Triple H : Has been cutting the same promo for so long I can't even find a good joke to match the time frame, and he looks set to do so for as long as he lives.

The Rock : After they ditched the Rocky Maivia gimmick, whether he was face, heel, part of the Nation, part of the Corporation, part of Rock 'n' Sock, he used the same promo day in day out for pretty much his whole career.

Steve Austin : After they ditched the Ringmaster gimmicks, whether he was face, heel, tweener, whatever he would role out the same promo time and time again.

Vince McMahon : Lets not even go there, but same promo time after time.

Hulk Hogan : Someone forgot to tell Hogan that the script he got the first week wasn't then set in stone for the next 50 years.....

The Ultimate Warrior : Excuse me Mr Warrior, but this is a 1 way street, no turning, no changing, just keep on going.

Goldust : Gold lights, freaky crap, freaky guy, same freaky ass promo.


Need I go on? None of these guys have really evolved since they got over, it has been the same thing time and time again, and with the exception of the "smarks" on the net, the fans eat it up time and time again

So I wouldn't say you are going to fail if you run the same promo all the time, just that you will if you do it with the skill and charisma level of Batista....;)

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah, Warrior would come out, pumping his arms every time he got hit (kind of like "Raising the roof"), and stomp around.

I think allot of times people get all caught up in "Selling" and accuse what's supposed to be part of the match as no-selling.

To me No-Selling is having your arm worked the whole match, and then forgetting about it when it's your turn to go on offense. But the things like Hulk Hogan laying on his back half the match, then starting to HULK up by getting Power from his HULKAMANIACS OUT THERE BROTHER! That was part of the character/match. He wasn't no selling, he was selling the fact that he was gaining power from the crowd. This power made him whole again, and more powerful then when the match first started.

That's one thing that always gets me when talking about him, people always says he doesn't sell. HE sold, just heeled during the match (The gimmick was a direct rip-off of the HULK... Hulk gets mad, Hulk gets stronger). Wouldn't matter if he hurt himself for real, he would "Act" like he wasn't in pain during that time, and as time goes by and more things are learned about him, we all know he was in quite a bit of pain just being in the ring most of the time from the 90's onward.

His problem was who he would and would not lose to. That's basically it, and you had to pay him allot of money, because he made you allot of money.

[tristram]

Have to agree on Lex Luger. The torture rack was a sick move, you almost felt like you were hearing a blokes back cracking. I felt Luger was very good in 1997, and had the momentum to gain the Championship. I think it was Uncensored 1997 when he was at his peak when in the main event, nWo v WCW v Team Piper, Luger racked the entire nWo out of the elimination match only to be screwed at the end. The worst thing that happened to Luger's career was to go to the Wolfpack, he just didn't suit it, and then from there the comeback with Liz as the Total Package and without the name Lex Luger was kinda silly. But I think that was Vince Russo's era, so the less said the better. That clown had no idea.

[wilts]

Yeah, Warrior would come out, pumping his arms every time he got hit (kind of like "Raising the roof"), and stomp around.

I think allot of times people get all caught up in "Selling" and accuse what's supposed to be part of the match as no-selling.

To me No-Selling is having your arm worked the whole match, and then forgetting about it when it's your turn to go on offense. But the things like Hulk Hogan laying on his back half the match, then starting to HULK up by getting Power from his HULKAMANIACS OUT THERE BROTHER! That was part of the character/match. He wasn't no selling, he was selling the fact that he was gaining power from the crowd. This power made him whole again, and more powerful then when the match first started.

That's one thing that always gets me when talking about him, people always says he doesn't sell. HE sold, just heeled during the match (The gimmick was a direct rip-off of the HULK... Hulk gets mad, Hulk gets stronger). Wouldn't matter if he hurt himself for real, he would "Act" like he wasn't in pain during that time, and as time goes by and more things are learned about him, we all know he was in quite a bit of pain just being in the ring most of the time from the 90's onward.

His problem was who he would and would not lose to. That's basically it, and you had to pay him allot of money, because he made you allot of money.

Chris, take this as some big ol' man love!!!!
I have been saying this for years, to the point that I am now bored of saying it so don't get into the conversation any more when this comes up.

Another thing that people seem to confuse is no-selling and stupidity/lack of psychology. When talking about no-selling it is always talked about as being intentional, whereas in reality it is just what you have said, remembering to work it if you arm or leg has been pounded on for 30 mins, and most no-selling these days seems to just be stupidity or lack of psychology (read: brains...)

Anyway, thanks for that post. It made my day!

[justtxyank]

1) Lex Luger is underrated. When he was in his prime (read as before he put on too much muscle and got old) he was so athletic that even though he could pull off real wrestling moves, you could buy him in the ring. He was a super strong genetic freak that could fly around the ring (I mean as in he could jump around and be athletic, not high risk moves). His torture rack was awesome and his flying forearm was believable. His late career WCW stuff was brutal, but that was because he was old and couldn't move around anymore.

2) I strongly, STRONGLY disagree with the poster above who seems to say that HHH, Austin, and The Rock, even Hogan, cut the same promo forever. Style elements may have been the same, but they definitely displayed creativity, spontaneity, and an understanding of what fed the crowd. (HHH less by far than the other 3 in that group.) Batista has none of that.

[VTial]

Whew! That last reply needed multiple more edits. Shouldn't have posted that quick.

Anyway, I'd just like to clarify that Luger wasn't a bad seller. It's just the fact that he constantly oversells that makes him seem much worse than Batista at wrestling psychology.

Here's a youtube vid I got from Google to prove this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg8jl0oNzUg

I believe there was even one where Luger sold to trash being thrown at the ring but I don't have a link to it. That's actually what I thought would be the top result if I searched for Luger over-selling.

[justtxyank]

Have to agree on Lex Luger. The torture rack was a sick move, you almost felt like you were hearing a blokes back cracking. I felt Luger was very good in 1997, and had the momentum to gain the Championship. I think it was Uncensored 1997 when he was at his peak when in the main event, nWo v WCW v Team Piper, Luger racked the entire nWo out of the elimination match only to be screwed at the end. The worst thing that happened to Luger's career was to go to the Wolfpack, he just didn't suit it, and then from there the comeback with Liz as the Total Package and without the name Lex Luger was kinda silly. But I think that was Vince Russo's era, so the less said the better. That clown had no idea.

Luger was great in the 90s all the way until early 1998. That's when he died. He got bigger in 98 than he should have. If you look at him in 97 he was lean muscle. He was so athletic it was crazy.

Anyway, Hogan's selling abilities are underrated as well. We tend to be way to harsh on guys who couldn't or didn't do technical wrestling. They weren't supposed to. Luger for example wasn't supposed to be a wrestler, he was supposed to be an athletic genetic freak that was super powerful.

[justtxyank]

Whew! That last reply needed multiple more edits. Shouldn't have posted that quick.

Anyway, I'd just like to clarify that Luger wasn't a bad seller. It's just the fact that he constantly oversells that makes him seem much worse than Batista at wrestling psychology.

Here's a youtube vid I got from Google to prove this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg8jl0oNzUg

I believe there was even one where Luger sold to trash being thrown at the ring but I don't have a link to it. That's actually what I thought would be the top result if I searched for Luger over-selling.

1) By the looks of the two men in that video, Luger looks like he's already been beat up for the bulk of the match

2) I actually think wrestlers undersell slaps and punches way too much to be honest. I promise you that if a 250 pound man with 24 inch pythons slaps you across the face you are going to oversell it.

Edit: Although I'm not arguing that he didn't have a problem of overselling. He did. He also was only average on the stick at his peak and got worse and worse as it went on.

[VTial]

I strongly, STRONGLY disagree with the poster above who seems to say that HHH, Austin, and The Rock, even Hogan, cut the same promo forever. Style elements may have been the same, but they definitely displayed creativity, spontaneity, and an understanding of what fed the crowd. (HHH less by far than the other 3 in that group.) Batista has none of that.

Yeah, I actually disagreed with that post (except for HHH - yawn, same promo under a different feud does not mean different)

Batista actually did change. Unfortunately he went from great to worse is the problem. I partially attribute this to writers though.

When they replaced Orton with Batista to feud with HHH, he got a short stint as Mr. Body in a Suit. While it wasn't that gimmick alone, he became massively over then. He almost found his "be yourself" gimmick right then and there. Right amounts of milking the thumbs down. Short and quick promos. Eyes behind the back of the head power guy. That Batista was highly respected even by a lot of smarks.

Problem was after he came back from injury, he only had a brief stint of that when he addressed the fans back. After that it was "Raargh! Taker! Champion! Raargh!" "raahh... *ahem* excuse me moi, Raargh! CM Punk! Champion! Raargh!"

[VTial]

1) By the looks of the two men in that video, Luger looks like he's already been beat up for the bulk of the match

2) I actually think wrestlers undersell slaps and punches way too much to be honest. I promise you that if a 250 pound man with 24 inch pythons slaps you across the face you are going to oversell it.

Edit: Although I'm not arguing that he didn't have a problem of overselling. He did. He also was only average on the stick at his peak and got worse and worse as it went on.

Yeah, I agree. I just thought I'd clarify that rather than constantly edit the last reply cause people might misunderstand what I meant by Batista being better at selling.

[Blackman]

I never thought I'd say this but Orton sold that pretty well. The whole "I snapped" thing. It really seemed as if he was having an internal struggle after doing that.

How vicious of a kick was that though? wow. Last week's Sweet Chin Music on Cena looked wicked but this weeks "punt" by Orton just looked sick.

I'm actually finding myself starting to like Orton as a main guy.

Same here. He really sold that well, and his mic skills are awesome by now. They were already good when he started but still. :)

And yeah, I guess McMahon sold that kick well too. :)

This RAW was pretty good actually, as I watch it for the drama anyway. For wrestling, I'll turn to ROH. :)

[Actarus]

Same here. He really sold that well, and his mic skills are awesome by now. They were already good when he started but still. :)

And yeah, I guess McMahon sold that kick well too. :)

This RAW was pretty good actually, as I watch it for the drama anyway. For wrestling, I'll turn to ROH. :)

/nod. While not really much of an Orton fan, I thought he did a good job last night and plays his character well. The only thing I'm wondering (not a criticism) is where they go to from here. I read the Stone Cold comparisons, and the only problem with that is that McMahon's the face right now, rather than being the evil boss that screws over his out-of-control employee.

Vince vs. Orton at Wrestlemania? Or maybe a trio representing Vince vs. Legacy at Wrestlemania? And if the latter, who'd you choose?

[infinitywpi]

Vince vs. Orton at Wrestlemania? Or maybe a trio representing Vince vs. Legacy at Wrestlemania? And if the latter, who'd you choose?

Duh. Vince, Shane and Triple H vs The Legacy, with Shane turning on his father for the finish. That's money, right there, that is. Especially if Vince 'brings back' the Million Dollar Man and The American Dream for a one-night-only tag match agaisnt their kids or something...

[djthefunkchris]

Something that wasn't discussed....

The Dustin/Cody thing. What you guys make out of that? The return of a serious Dustin Rhodes?

[VTial]

Ok on further thinking, I realized that John Cena is much more closer to Warrior than Batista is. Unbelievable? Here are my reasons:

1) Both got over because they were charismatic bodybuilders

2) Both had that special something going for them but both had horrible gimmicks prior to the one the WWE gave them. (which was also horrible but this time they had their entrance theme music and inane unsensible kinda exciting promos to help package their gimmicks)

3) Both rely on multiple series of moves and both have a tendency to make bad moves sell well only because of the energy they bring to each move.

4) Both had gimmicks that draw energy from the crowd. Where as Hogan and Rocky call to the crowds only when ending the match, Cena and Warrior both pay tribute to the crowd the entire match and credit the crowd for their wins.

Sure the analogy is imperfect for the same reason that The Rock doesn't exactly match with Hulk Hogan but it's much closer than Batista analogy-wise.

[djthefunkchris]

Cena's able to carry a match, and even contribute to MOTY types when with the right person (HBK). So... well, I don't know if Warrior ever was able to do that, but then I never liked the Warrior even when he was popular.

Then again, I never liked Hogan much, or Flair, Rhodes, etc.. till long after their prime.

I think maybe its respect more then anything.

[VTial]

djthe****chris, Warrior has shown the capability to do so. His match with Hogan in the first was borderline 5 stars. It could even be argued that it's the only match in the entire pro-wrestling history that's deserving of 5 stars just due to all the things that were right combined with the overness of both wrestlers and the build-up.

I'm sure most pro-wrestling fans would hate this but not even any of Austin's best matches were on par with what took place at Hogan-Warrior 1.

It's not his fault though. IMO the ideal 5 star match always required not only two extremely over main eventers but the right Superbowl event and the right clash of characters. In that sense, that match's quality was further added by the right time for Hogan to get someone over as his overness was only starting to dip and the right time for a guy like Warrior to be the highlight of the company because not only was his popularity just at the peak of critical mass that you can milk it as face vs. face but it was two highly energetic unstoppable force who's movesets exactly contribute to the other one's so you didn't really needed any spots but just enough transitions so that the match feels like two cruiserweights at that time going at each other. (Also helped by the fact that no one knew what cruiserweights were capable of back then. Certainly not the casual fans)

Yes, Warrior is much more capable than Cena but they were almost the same in that category either.

Both men's matches relied on the circumstances of wrestling when they were pushed.

Warrior carried matches well because he was not just a brawler but a brawler that literally carried matches just by his entrance and then maintained that energy to the end.

He had some great help in that he was often given talented wrestlers to sell for him but even at his weakest win streak, Warrior timed exactly when to taunt, when to pick spots and when to make himself look weak that I believe other wrestling aspects aside, he was underrated as a spot monkey because the excitement of his matches far outshine even Goldberg and Samoa Joe's when they were at their winning streaks. To do that in an era when most people thought wrestling was real was huge. Not only were his matches the fakest in an era where people expect reality but his chain moves had to look as adrenaline pumping as possible. If Cena tried his five knuckle shuffle and won, he'd get booed in that era.

Still...Warrior benefitted from the fact that most people then weren't so critical of how well you pull off moves. No watching viewer were really concerned for the injury a move might cause to another wrestler. Botches were perceived more as having grazed an opponent than a bad move. In today's modern era, Warrior would have been booed out of the building for doing any of those things.

Cena on the other hand came at exactly the point where fans didn't care for how bad an STFU look and they just treat it as entertainment so that he gets away with alot of fake trademark moves and un-realistic crap but pandered and won his case to enough fans that if he pulls off a good match with those moves, he's argued as having able to pull off a good to great match.

It's obvious from this post that I'm more biased towards the 80s-90s days of doing things but in essence, I'm not really saying Warrior is better than Cena. Just that both had the benefit of what pro-wrestling was to their generation.

Warrior - The most ripped wrestler in a time when ripped and huge was a necessity. The energy in a time of lumbering big men that allowed him to look edgy. The right timing of having the highest main eventer start to lose overness and little talented wrestlers that helped him along the way.

Cena - The most charismatic wrestler in a time when mic time was sparse and the guy who could generate pops with the weakest shortest promos were considered up top. The tweener attitude in a time when people were yearning something different from a SCSA tweener kind of gimmick and thus making him look edgy. The right timing to have no huge superstar carrying the company. The right time to not be facing HHH when he didn't want to drop his belt to anyone. Finally, the right time when the actually decent wrestlers are given to him at exactly the point where he not only needed to look good but had developed enough to be able to look good.

The only thing that's vastly different about these two guys except for their gimmick was the fact that the steroid scandal hit Warrior the worst at a time when that was his gimmick where as the constant title pushes hurt the Cena the most in a time when the WWE could go to other stars to omit Cena.

Also Cena's body size was never an issue so he didn't suffer from the post-injury push while Warrior's size was of utmost importance to retaining his overness. Warrior's gimmick also made him worthy of being a top prospect and even legitimately carrying another major company while Cena really had nowhere else to go but stay in the WWE so Cena had less reason to play prima donna on his position.

[pepper2008]

Warriors run with WCW was so bad. With worst promo ever, worst segment ever (when he forgets a lot of his line while Hogan and Bischoff whispers to Warrior his cues) and where he miss his trapdoor/smoke cue and has to be beat up by the NWO (love what Scott Norton did thank God for his Japanese experience to make that a great ending)

Cena's bad he actually got bood everywhere except the USA. Just look at the foreign RAW shows. I have not seen Cena carry a good match. He is the one being carried to great matches look at his past feuds against top notch workers (like Christian ,jericho, angle, shawn)

Guess both are bad workers at certain times in their careers but still very popular whether positive or negative.

[VTial]

pepper2008,

WWF is generally much better than WCW because they were more of an established company rather than a fed trying to constantly up their antics to compete.

That's why Cena looks better than the Warrior then. Not only is Cena just hitting his peak this era but he is well groomed to his strengths.

If you give Cena to WCW, they might even consider letting Cena rap the N word and cause him a career suicide of epic proportions that you think Warrior got the better end of the WCW treatment.

[tristram]

Luger was great in the 90s all the way until early 1998. That's when he died. He got bigger in 98 than he should have. If you look at him in 97 he was lean muscle. He was so athletic it was crazy.

Anyway, Hogan's selling abilities are underrated as well. We tend to be way to harsh on guys who couldn't or didn't do technical wrestling. They weren't supposed to. Luger for example wasn't supposed to be a wrestler, he was supposed to be an athletic genetic freak that was super powerful.

100% correct. Luger looked like a great physical athlete in 1997, but likewise to Scott Steiner, beyond that it looked unnatural.

[tristram]

pepper2008,

WWF is generally much better than WCW because they were more of an established company rather than a fed trying to constantly up their antics to compete.

That's why Cena looks better than the Warrior then. Not only is Cena just hitting his peak this era but he is well groomed to his strengths.

If you give Cena to WCW, they might even consider letting Cena rap the N word and cause him a career suicide of epic proportions that you think Warrior got the better end of the WCW treatment.

Cena would never be allowed to rap the "n" word in latter day WCW. Standards & Practices within the Time-Warner merger with Turner, and then further intensified under AOL, made WCW go to super-crazy family friendly lengths that basically killed off any ability to make adult realistic conflicts. The only time I remember the "n" word in WCW was a Harlem Heat promo where Booker T accidentally faux-pas it when he laid out an ambitious challenge to Hulk Hogan while Harlem Heat were working as heels and being managed by Sherri Martel.

[Eisen-verse]

Something that wasn't discussed....

The Dustin/Cody thing. What you guys make out of that? The return of a serious Dustin Rhodes?

I doubt it. Only because I think Dustin's in-ring career as a serious competitor is far past us.

If it was me booking the WWE then I would for sure go ahead with a feud between the two brothers with Dustin being a legit competitor.

In the end, I think they used the segment to give Cody some on-screen time to try to sell his whole alliance with Orton and how he'd rather choose orton over his own family.

[GatorBait19]

when Legacy has run it's course and it's time to kill the stable I think I know how you could end it


maybe someone goes to far like Orton or Cody and they attack their own father, this then turns each person against each other slowly