Do you respect Vince McMahon?

[Earth]

I was wondering what people thoughts on Vince McMahon? You like the him? Do you respect him? Or both?

I respect and like the guy, to be honest.

Yeah, people hate him because he screwed the independent scene, but surely that's the way things work nowadays? The smaller companies find and train the talent, and the big ones utilise it.

Also, Survivor Series '97. I have never felt sorry for Bret on that occasion. To me, Vince was protected his business. It is understandable that would be his first priority. I think Bret comes across as selfish for not realising this. That's just me.

I know I sound like some torrie, but I promise you, I am not. I am nothing like Vince and have no ambitions to be anything like him in the future. I just understand that he's a man that is willing to do anything to protect his investment, and for that I kind of admire him.

What do you guys think?

[Self]

I respect him. I may rant later (possibly on the Bret thing, Hart mark that I am) but I respect Vince. One Hell of a businessman.

[Earth]

I respect him. I may rant later (possibly on the Bret thing, Hart mark that I am) but I respect Vince. One Hell of a businessman.

I'll look forward to your rant, mate. It would be interesting to hear another opinion on it. I watched "Wrestling With Shadows" a while ago, and couldn't really sympathise, I must say.

[CQI13]

I like Vince. I respect him as well. I don't like some of the things he's done to embarrass employees (namely Jim Ross -- KMA Club, pulling JR's head from his ass, etc). But aside from that, I think he'd be a good person to work for.

On the Bret Hart thing, Vince was protecting his business, even if it all really comes down to Shawn being a jerk about things (as he had done in the past, giving belts up rather than losing them).

Never understood why they didn't just have Bret win, and immediately after the match have Bret relinquish the belt. People knew what the situation was, so it doesn't really ruin anything.

--EDIT--

As for destroying the territories, that was HIS vision. If the territories had banded together (they did) and succeeded (they didn't) no one would care about what Vince had done prior. I have heard Greg Gagne mention that they unwittingly spilled their (meaning the AWA) business secrets to Vince over the course of a few meetings. They kind of did themselves in with that.

[FlameSnoopy]

The one that doesn't respect Vince McMahon either doesn't know who he is, or is a hell of a stupid guy. Because Vince (Jr) was the guy that made wrestling a mainstream sport (atleast in the USA) You can't honestly denie that? The screwjob wasn't a screwjob. It was business. Honestly, if I would be Vince I would do the exact same thing. Bret is stupid for not letting it go. But for all the things Vince has done, he deservers respect. He is a "hell-uf-a-businessman".

[Hive]

I respect him for all he has accomplished and for putting wrestling on the map the way he did, but I don't particularly agree with all his methods or like him personally. And I most certainly do not like how he ruined WCW just for the sake of doing so and I don't like what he has done with wrestling in this decade, the direction he has pulled it into.

About the Montreal Screwjob, I'm with neither side. Bret was a jackass for refusing to lose the belt and for putting himself before the company that made him a star and did great things for him. Vince was a jackass for insisting that Bret lost it in front of his home crowd and to a guy he hated with a passion and for lying to him before screwing him. And Shawn was a jackass for being a dishonest coward who kept it as a secret for years that he was in on it. Either way, I have sympathy for noone in that incident.

[The Masked Orange]

Vince is one of the men that made modern wrestling, he is by far one of the most effective businessmen in the entire business, and heck, the guy has entertained my for all my life.

Any guy crazy enough to allow HBK to drop the elbow on a trash can through the table just for my entertainment, I respect.

Also, no love here for Bret, he was employed by WWE, yet he was unwilling to drop the belt for them, Vince was just protecting his business, I think it could of been done better, but the way he did it was fine.

[CQI13]

Just like Shawn was employed by Vince all those times when HE refused to lose the belt. Seriously, he was a scumbag. And as late as 2006 to leave before Bret's induction (or so I've heard) reflects poorly.

Best promoter ever, Vince McMahon? I think it's safe to say.

[Chuck]

Vince was a jackass for insisting that Bret lost it in front of his home crowd

That statement is false... the screwjob was in Montreal. Bret is from Calgary. That'd be like Shawn saying he cant lose in Lubbock or Amarillo

[Tha Black Phenom]

Of course I respect Vince. Liking or hating him is another thing though, but I definitely respect the man. He has had some great ideas, and some horrible ones. Everyone does. As for the screwjob, despite being a Montreal native myself, I'm on neither side really. If I had to choose I'd be on Bret, but I pretty much feel what Hive said.

[dvdWarrior]

I respect Vince, you kinda have to if you're a wrestling fan. I'm 197.3% on Bret Hart's side when it comes to the screwjob though. There had to be better ways for Vince to handle that whole situation.

[Self]

Here's my Montreal standpoint. My main source of knowledge is Bret's awesome book (which I must re-read at some point) I haven't seen Wrestling With Shadows, but I was tempted to buy it not long ago.

According to Bret, a little while before Montreal, Shawn Michaels out-and-out said "I'm not going to job to Bret". Bret, not liking the ****y prick to begin with, said "Fine. If you're not gonna job to me, I won't job to you." Survivor Series came up, and Vince wanted Bret to drop the strap to Shawn, in Canada, where Bret was a hero.

Bret offered to drop it to Austin. He offered to drop it to Undertaker. He offered to drop it to Shawn the following night on RAW. He just wasn't going to drop it to Shawn in Canada. Hence he got screwed.

I understand Bret's standpoint. I understand Vince's standpoint. I know this is the Hart Foundation mark in me, but I really wish Vince had let him drop it to Austin, or Taker, or Shawn the following night on RAW.

[The Masked Orange]

The point is Self, that Vince needed to prove that Bret wasn't the invincible golden boy many Canadians thought he was.

By having HBK beat him, you get a lot of heat, and HBK certainly got a lot of heat in Canada after that.

[dvdWarrior]

According to Bret, a little while before Montreal, Shawn Michaels out-and-out said "I'm not going to job to Bret". Bret, not liking the ****y prick to begin with, said "Fine. If you're not gonna job to me, I won't job to you." Survivor Series came up, and Vince wanted Bret to drop the strap to Shawn, in Canada, where Bret was a hero.

Bret offered to drop it to Austin. He offered to drop it to Undertaker. He offered to drop it to Shawn the following night on RAW. He just wasn't going to drop it to Shawn in Canada. Hence he got screwed.

That's similar to what Mick Foley said in his first book, that Bret was willing to drop the belt to Austin or The Undertaker, he just didn't want to drop it to HBK in Montreal. Foley was ready to walk out of the company over the situation, and, for whatever reason, Foley's story sounded more... real... than most of the other variations that I've heard. I tend to believe him.

[The Masked Orange]

Vince shouldn't of screwed Bret, but it clearly did him good business...


...eventually anyways...

[Self]

The point is Self, that Vince needed to prove that Bret wasn't the invincible golden boy many Canadians thought he was.

By having HBK beat him, you get a lot of heat, and HBK certainly got a lot of heat in Canada after that.

What? I... What? How does cheating to beat someone prove that Bret wasn't a golden boy? Bret Hart was MORE of a hero in Canada after getting screwed. If WCW hadn't fumbled so ridiculously, Bret could have been THE biggest thing in wrestling at that time.

Vince wanted the title on Shawn. I can understand that. I can respect that. He didn't NEED to punk out Bret... but I understand how it could have been an unavoidable side-effect of Vince getting what he wanted.

... and yes, HBK got heat. They could have got much the same result from a worked finish though... and how much time has Shawn spent as a Heel since then? Why is him having heat in Canada a good thing?

The screwjob DID create the Vince McMahon character though, which has been a huge money earner, so I guess it isn't all bad.

[CQI13]

Can't fault Vince for his ego, as much as sometimes I dislike what he does. The government came after him and he "won". And indictments carry something like a 95% chance of ending in a conviction. Some of the petty things he does for the same reason a dog licks its genitals are unnecessary, but being in the same situation, I might be tempted to do some petty things myself.

As for the "screwjob", I never liked Shawn, though I tolerate him now. I wonder what would have happened if Bret had purposely made Shawn look bad (overselling/underselling) or whatever. What if he just walked out, or no-showed (NOT taking the belt with him of course)? Didn't a lot of people know he was leaving (meaning fans)? I'm sure he could have dropped it before the PPV came up...

Also, Masked Orange, Bret was not coming back to WWE (even before the screwjob) so you don't need to prove anything. He'll never work for you.

When it comes down to it, it's business. There are better ways of doing business, but that's what went down. (Same can be said about Douglas winning the NWA Title and crapping on it in the subsequent promo -- memorable? yes! Still poor way of doing business).

[FINisher]

I say that it would be childish not to respect Vince McMahon. Businesswise, it's indeniable. But I have to say that I happen to disagree with a lot of booking decisions he has made over the years, but that isn't about respect. So yes, all in all, in the end. I do respect Vince McMahon. On many occasions you just have to put yourself to Vince's place and ask "What would have I done back then, what would I have done in that situation?".

[G-Prime]

And as late as 2006 to leave before Bret's induction (or so I've heard) reflects poorly.


I seem to recall hearing he left at Bret's request, because Bret wouldn't step into the same room as him.

[CQI13]

Gprime, if that's the case, I will retract that comment. I had heard he left in order for there to not be a scene. I was unaware that it was at Bret's request.

[SolidDavidGold]

How can you not respect Vince as a business man. It's as a human being that I have a little trouble with him. He put hundreds of people out of work via the massacre of the territories, screwed over many of the boys (Bret first and foremost) and just generally comes across as a slimy prick in a suit. But, then again, most business men are just slimy pricks in suits.

[Bigpapa42]

Respct McMahon? Absolutely. How could you not? A fantastic mind for the business and a great business man. I'm not convinced he's enough in touch with what's going on at this point, but that doesn't erase what he's accomplished in the past.

As for the Screwjob, let's remember a few things. I won't call them "facts", but most of them have been confirmed by multiple sources beyond Hart himself and never really refuted. Let's not forget the Michaels had a history of refusing to job, including making apparently making direct statements to Hart that he wouldn't job to him. As Hart felt McMahon has scewed over other workers who left, he protected himself with creative control in the final month of his contact. A long-term contract that he was allowing to be broken because McMahon apparently couldn't honor the financial commitments. According to multiple sources, Hart was willing to drop the belt in any number of ways, but his used his contracted right to refuse one specific option - he wouldn't drop it to Michaels in Montreal. That left McMahon with any number of options. Instead of taking one of those options, or even just strippling Hart of the belt, McMahon agreed a specific finish. Then to get his way, he conspired with a few people to screw over a highly-respected wrestler who was with him for more than a decade. I don't think there's any way for McMahon to not look horrible given all that.

[Hyde Hill]

respect, yes like or admire No!

[The Final Countdown]

I don't have as much respect for Vince as a "businessman" as most of you apparently seem to...unless the title of "businessman" only extends to what he's done in wrestling. Because any time he's tried expand into other ventures, it fails pretty miserably. (WBF, XFL, WWF Music, etc.)

Do I respect him for having the guts and the vision to completely change the landscape of wrestling in the 80's? Absolutely. And his longevity can't be discounted either. I just don't think the guy is some kind of genius businessman.

As a human being, no respect for him at all. Seems like a giant prick to me.

[Gabbo]

Great respect for him. Personally? I'm indifferent to him. He's seems a real prick but I can't help but like him, he's got that 'lovable rogue' feel to him.

[Capelli King]

hard to not respect what he has done, i am pretty sure he is an OK guy in real life, a businessman which knows what he is doing, cannot say i like him, think he does what he is suppose to be doing and the company would be worse off without him, that is for sure

[praguepride]

To break up this love fest (or respect fest :D) one thing that I question Vince on is his taste.

I've heard that he's been the driving force behind some rather awful storylines (Lita/Kan/Abortion storyline anyone?) and that just makes me shake my head and think "how could you possibly think people would want to watch that"

Now I know the WWF/E made a business out of pushing the envelope, but there's a definite difference between "pushing" and "smashing" and I don't respect Vince's creativity to pull off something like that.

The second thing that made me pause was the WCW invasion. Vince had won, he had a great money maker all set up where WCW vs. WWF on his own shows! But from what I've read and seen, he basically humiliated the WCW workers, having his own Steve Austin being the only one on the WCW side to come out of it ahead.

It seemed to me like a childish "yeah, I beat you now suck it" kind of ploy. In that sense I think he squandered some really good opportunities by practically burying WCW's roster.

[Self]

Vince is out of touch with what's fashionable today. No question. Kid Rock at 'Mania is more than enough evidence of that. He's behind the times (forgivable, Dude's like 60) but has too tight a hold on the reigns to let the younger voices completely get through.

I somewhat defend a lot of the more adult storyline, as if you look at the top-rated "Normal" Television shows there's all sorts of "questionable" stuff on there. Abortion. Rape. Maybe not necrophelia. It's all a matter of having a delicate touch with the storytelling, making it relevant and not exploitative, and wrestling... It's a pretty unsubtle artform in many ways. Plus, with a lot of fans wanting wrestling to be wrasslin', it's no wonder adult storylines are rejected by the audience.

Note to Self; try some of this in FCK.

[CQI13]

His taste may be questionable in some things, but short of hearing it directly from him, I wouldn't trust reports of what storylines Vince has been a driving force behind. And there have been some missed opportunities for sure (WCW).

But he had some good angles in cross promotion with ECW (I'm assuming he had to have some input on that). And while some of his ideas didn't pan out (not even sure what the WBF was, no one buys music nowadays anyway), some concepts he has popularized (the on field camera on NFL I hadn't seen before the XFL).

The man takes gambles, and sometimes he loses (the aforementioned ones). But he has some mild successes (WWE Movies, if certainly not quality, at least on the $ side). And most importantly, making WWF what it is today after his purchase is unbelievable.

[praguepride]

Vince is out of touch with what's fashionable today. No question. Kid Rock at 'Mania is more than enough evidence of that. He's behind the times (forgivable, Dude's like 60) but has too tight a hold on the reigns to let the younger voices completely get through.

/nod.

The guy's definitly got a set of brains on him, but he's got an ego to match. That ego ruined what I think could have been an even bigger era then the Attitude Era, and has led to some very self-destructive tendancies over the years.



I somewhat defend a lot of the more adult storyline, as if you look at the top-rated "Normal" Television shows there's all sorts of "questionable" stuff on there. Abortion. Rape. Maybe not necrophelia. It's all a matter of having a delicate touch with the storytelling, making it relevant and not exploitative, and wrestling... It's a pretty unsubtle artform in many ways. Plus, with a lot of fans wanting wrestling to be wrasslin', it's no wonder adult storylines are rejected by the audience.

Note to Self; try some of this in FCK.

If there's one word I would never use to describe "WWE", it's "subtle." Everything's been over the top and in your face. So I concur, "adult" storylines would be awesome for a mure subtle, adult oriented promotion, but look at the WWE's product. It's geared right at adolescent males, and fans who became fans in their teenage years. It's not family friendly, but it's also not mature enough for an adult audience. Sophmoric humor doesn't fly when you deal with serious issues like bestiality, abortion, and crucifixions :D

[praguepride]

The man takes gambles, and sometimes he loses (the aforementioned ones). But he has some mild successes (WWE Movies, if certainly not quality, at least on the $ side). And most importantly, making WWF what it is today after his purchase is unbelievable.

This is probably what makes me respect him the most. He's never "comfortable." He is always looking for the next thing, to revolutionize the next market.

Although he has lost a ton of money on his more questionable business ventures (XFL tanked hardcore) throughout it all he's come out ahead and with more publicity then before.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew XFL was going to fail and used it as a huge publicity stunt to get football fans to notice the WWE.

[jesterx7769]

I respect him alot from the business side since I'm not much of a wrestling fan anymore.

Speaking of the XFL, it was actually a huge success that people didn't give a chance. Their attendance levels were great, they just didnt get huge tv ratings so they were pulled. but what those tv people that pulled it didnt realize is that ticket attendance leads to sponsor and tv ratings, if things were a bit different I think it would have been given a better chance.

[The Final Countdown]

And while some of his ideas didn't pan out (not even sure what the WBF was
The World Bodybuilding Federation, Vince's short-lived bodybuilding thing in the early-90's. IIRC, that was what they brought Lex Luger in for initially.

I THINK he may have started that up during the steroid investigations, which is just...incredibly stupid.

Speaking of the XFL, it was actually a huge success that people didn't give a chance.
It was not a huge success. Attendance may have been great, but their TV ratings were considered abysmal. It lost boatloads of money. It was a complete and utter failure.

[justtxyank]

I give credit where it's due; Vince has accomplished a lot. I love the Vince McMahon character and I admire his desire to be the best and give the fans entertainment.

However, I do not "respect" him. Respect entails a lot more than just saying "yeah he's done well as a businessman."

His business practices have been less than respectable throughout the years. He has knowingly allowed workers to use and abuse drugs/alcohol/Rx/steroids, etc. to the detriment of their health while he profited off of them. He has sacrificed the integrity of his employees to stroke his ego on multiple occasions. He has treated many employees like garbage. He has used legal technicalities to do damage to men who have busted their bodies for him once he's done with them (claiming trademarks on their names, logos, etc.) The Montreal Screwjob was an example of him violating the terms of a contract he agreed to because he didn't feel like it was good for his business/was concerned he'd get screwed.

All of those things may have benefited him businesswise, could be argued to be smart business decisions, and have helped his company prosper. That said, good/smart business decisions are not always respectable.

If you are in a boat with a stranger and there is only enough supplies for one to survive, the smart thing to do may be to push the other guy overboard and let him drown to preserve yourself. That doesn't make it respectable.

So no, I do not respect Vince McMahon.

[CQI13]

While I agree with some of the points you make (perhaps not the opinion, but the actual point), he's no different than other owners in primarily sports, but also elsewhere.

For example, baseball owners/GMs/Commissioner KNEW about PEDs during the Sosa/McGwire summer. It benefited them so they kept their mouths shut. Only now do they find it reprehensible that they cheated...with their consent!

The employees bit I will agree to (I believe I mentioned JR earlier). The legal technicalities bit is a little dicier. Is it morally wrong? Probably. Is it illegal? No. But that hasn't stopped people from being successful outside his organization (i.e. Hall & Nash couldn't use Razor Ramon & Diesel, but that made that whole angle that much more compelling).

On the Screwjob you are also correct. But if Bret had screwed him (as Alundra Blayze had prior) the situation would be different. IF Bret had screwed him, chances are we wouldn't even be talking about Vince McMahon right now.

I'm not sure I'd side with you on the last statement. For one, it becomes an emotional argument. There's no real way to tell that it will only save one person. Nor do we know the circumstances surrounding the situation. I would even go the other way on that and say that in that situation in particular you work with the other person. In the off chance that you both survive, you're kind of indebted to the other person permanently. Perhaps I'm too gullible at times, but whatever.

[justtxyank]

While I agree with some of the points you make (perhaps not the opinion, but the actual point), he's no different than other owners in primarily sports, but also elsewhere.

Yes? I think there are a lot of business owners who are successful that I wouldn't "respect."

For example, baseball owners/GMs/Commissioner KNEW about PEDs during the Sosa/McGwire summer. It benefited them so they kept their mouths shut. Only now do they find it reprehensible that they cheated...with their consent!

Great example. In this instance, they made a smart business decision, but it's not a respectable one. With Vince (and many baseball owners) I feel like he has made a great deal of good business decisions over his career that I just can't respect.

The employees bit I will agree to (I believe I mentioned JR earlier). The legal technicalities bit is a little dicier. Is it morally wrong? Probably. Is it illegal? No. But that hasn't stopped people from being successful outside his organization (i.e. Hall & Nash couldn't use Razor Ramon & Diesel, but that made that whole angle that much more compelling).

Fair enough, but with Razor and Diesel that doesn't really fit what I was talking about. The Dudley Boys are a much better example. And yes, they've managed to stay successful, but it isn't the point.

On the Screwjob you are also correct. But if Bret had screwed him (as Alundra Blayze had prior) the situation would be different. IF Bret had screwed him, chances are we wouldn't even be talking about Vince McMahon right now.

If Hart had pulled an Alundra he'd be the one gaining my disrespect for the incident. But he didn't. And there's no reason, nothing in his past up to that point or his future after that point, to suggest he would do it. He didn't want to leave the company, Vince had to push him out for financial reasons. And then, to protect his business interest, he violated a contract he had signed with an employee. That's not respectable no matter what the ultimate results were for his business.

I'm not sure I'd side with you on the last statement. For one, it becomes an emotional argument. There's no real way to tell that it will only save one person. Nor do we know the circumstances surrounding the situation. I would even go the other way on that and say that in that situation in particular you work with the other person. In the off chance that you both survive, you're kind of indebted to the other person permanently. Perhaps I'm too gullible at times, but whatever.

Fair enough. The example was a hypothetical. I'm sure you could insert any number of different ones where the smart thing to do is not something people would respect you for.

[dvdWarrior]

If Hart had pulled an Alundra he'd be the one gaining my disrespect for the incident. But he didn't. And there's no reason, nothing in his past up to that point or his future after that point, to suggest he would do it. He didn't want to leave the company, Vince had to push him out for financial reasons. And then, to protect his business interest, he violated a contract he had signed with an employee. That's not respectable no matter what the ultimate results were for his business.


If Bret had pulled an Alundra, he'd have been my hero forever. He's prolly my favorite wrestler of all time anyway, (definitely in the top three or four), but if he'd done that, he'd have my undying admiration.

If only I had a magic lamp...

I even considered making a scenario for TEW where that very thing happened once, (way back on the 2004 version), but nothing ever came of it.

[praguepride]

Technically, Vince didn't violate the contract, he just said that he would have to defer payment indefinitely. Vince then suggested that Bret opt out of the contract and seek employement with WCW. He did, it was just the timing happened sooner then I think Vince anticipated, WCW couldn't wait to snatch up a WWF Champion during the war era.

If Bret had screwed Vince, or if the Montreal Screwjob hadn't occured, who knows what the world would have been like. Without the Screwjob, Vince might not have created Mr. McMahon which I'll admit was a great way to generate some awesome heat during the Attitude era and even beyond.

Would WWF and WCW switch places? Probably not...who knows? I think WCW's downfall came from overall poor booking and complications outside of the ring (Time Warner's being bought out by America Online for example) and I doubt Bret Hart trashing the WWF belt on Nitro would have had any significant long term impact.

[CQI13]

Possibly. Certainly would have gotten people buzzing. And if things were as bad financially for WWF as reports claimed, I'm not sure what the hit would have been. If Bret trashes the belt on Nitro the next day, and WWF is done for, WCW continues to grab the ratings they were before (keeping them consistently high). And even if they don't, with a lack of competition, low to mid 2's aren't so bad. And they really aren't, again considering they were the highest rated program for Turner. But compare a 2 to a 4.5, 5, or whatever and it does seem pitiful.

[Imarevenant]

I don't have as much respect for Vince as a "businessman" as most of you apparently seem to...unless the title of "businessman" only extends to what he's done in wrestling. Because any time he's tried expand into other ventures, it fails pretty miserably. (WBF, XFL, WWF Music, etc.).

This is probably what makes me respect him the most. He's never "comfortable." He is always looking for the next thing, to revolutionize the next market.

Although he has lost a ton of money on his more questionable business ventures (XFL tanked hardcore) throughout it all he's come out ahead and with more publicity then before.

Heck, I wouldn't be surprised if he knew XFL was going to fail and used it as a huge publicity stunt to get football fans to notice the WWE.

XFL was definitely a failure, but taking on the NFL to begin with was a terribly risky proposition to begin with.

However, to say all WWE's outside ventures have failed is completely false.

WWE Music may have initially been very underwhelming; but once it changed format and started releasing compilations of worker entrances it has become extremely successful. Their albums have debuted as high as #2 and 3 on the Billboard 200. They've had many albums go Platinum and Gold since the change. It's been anything but a failure.

The same can be said for WWE Films. While they don't produce Oscar Bait, their films make back quite a bit more than their costs through both the international box office and DVD sales.

The fact is just because their films or movies aren't showered with awards doesn't mean that the ventures are unsuccessful. The WWE knows their audience in these areas and does a great job of creating content for that audience and selling the hell out of their product.

[justtxyank]

Technically, Vince didn't violate the contract

He absolutely did. Bret Hart had creative control in his contract and he exercised that bargained and agreed upon clause. Vince McMahon decided it was in his best business interest to do something different so he did it, violating the clause.

[Hyde Hill]

I think this also depends on what definition of respect you use. The way I respect him is that he is succesfull and coniving. EG if I had business dealing with him I would be on m gaurd etc. (Much like for instance Donald trump.) I in no way respect him as a person and many of his business decisions have been disrespectfull. On the screwjob I have read about it from many sides and seen wrestling with shadows and in the end McMahon screwed Bret plain and simple. Could both sides have handled it better yes of course but at least 80 percent of the blame can be placed at Vince.

[sheepy]

You can respect him but he's not exactly a role model that you'd want your kids to look up to.

In terms of business decisions and his on screen role I really think he's coming to the end of his shelf life and should look to move on (although I fear that Steph may well be worse than her father)

[The Final Countdown]

WWE Music may have initially been very underwhelming; but once it changed format and started releasing compilations of worker entrances it has become extremely successful. Their albums have debuted as high as #2 and 3 on the Billboard 200. They've had many albums go Platinum and Gold since the change. It's been anything but a failure.
I was under the impression that the WWE Music label had been discontinued, and the compilation CD's were a separate thing. Either way, I think it still applies: when they tried to make their own music label, that put out original, NON-WRESTLING RELATED CD's, it failed. I didn't argue that he was unsuccessful when it came to wrestling-related ventures, which is exactly what the compilation CD's are.

The same can be said for WWE Films. While they don't produce Oscar Bait, their films make back quite a bit more than their costs through both the international box office and DVD sales.

The fact is just because their films or movies aren't showered with awards doesn't mean that the ventures are unsuccessful. The WWE knows their audience in these areas and does a great job of creating content for that audience and selling the hell out of their product.
That's exactly why I did not mention WWE Films among the failures. It has been a success, financially. Though I would argue it is still semi-wrestling related, since all of the films that I am aware of rely on the star power of a WWE wrestler to get people interested. Still, I think it is enough of a departure to be included as stepping outside of his normal comfort zone, so he gets credit for that one, yes.

[Imarevenant]

I was under the impression that the WWE Music label had been discontinued, and the compilation CD's were a separate thing. Either way, I think it still applies: when they tried to make their own music label, that put out original, NON-WRESTLING RELATED CD's, it failed. I didn't argue that he was unsuccessful when it came to wrestling-related ventures, which is exactly what the compilation CD's are.

That's exactly why I did not mention WWE Films among the failures. It has been a success, financially. Though I would argue it is still semi-wrestling related, since all of the films that I am aware of rely on the star power of a WWE wrestler to get people interested. Still, I think it is enough of a departure to be included as stepping outside of his normal comfort zone, so he gets credit for that one, yes.

Well if that's your reason for excluding WWE Films then you should probably exclude the Record Label as well.

The label still exists it just changed it's name to WWE Music Group. And the last "original" CD they put out was John Cena's which debuted at #15 on the Billboard 200 and #3 in their rap section specifically. That's not failure.

All of the CD's beside Cena's (and I guess "WWE Originals" - arguably) are "wrestling related" though. The first CD they put out was comprised mostly of entrance themes. The next two were Piledriver and the Wrestlemania CD's. Both were comprised of wrestlers performances and were aimed at the wrestling audience, it's hard to say they were non-wrestling related by your definition though.

The Wrestlemania CD was put out specifically to help hype Wrestlemania.

Since then it's been all compilation albums except for Cena's album and some kayfabe Jillian Hall thing put out on iTunes.

[Thomnipotent]

I give credit where it's due; Vince has accomplished a lot. I love the Vince McMahon character and I admire his desire to be the best and give the fans entertainment.

However, I do not "respect" him. Respect entails a lot more than just saying "yeah he's done well as a businessman."

His business practices have been less than respectable throughout the years. He has knowingly allowed workers to use and abuse drugs/alcohol/Rx/steroids, etc. to the detriment of their health while he profited off of them. He has sacrificed the integrity of his employees to stroke his ego on multiple occasions. He has treated many employees like garbage. He has used legal technicalities to do damage to men who have busted their bodies for him once he's done with them (claiming trademarks on their names, logos, etc.) The Montreal Screwjob was an example of him violating the terms of a contract he agreed to because he didn't feel like it was good for his business/was concerned he'd get screwed.

All of those things may have benefited him businesswise, could be argued to be smart business decisions, and have helped his company prosper. That said, good/smart business decisions are not always respectable.

If you are in a boat with a stranger and there is only enough supplies for one to survive, the smart thing to do may be to push the other guy overboard and let him drown to preserve yourself. That doesn't make it respectable.

So no, I do not respect Vince McMahon.

QFT. Face it, the western world is a 'Get Money' society... so we automatically think it good to respect anyone who gets money.

The man has fine business acumen, sure... but respect is definitely the wrong word.

[tristram]

Respect: Probably not. I would usually respect those with deep ethics. To me, he has been a little questionable. Sure, I think most businessmen, particularly entrepreneurs taking huge risks have at times acted deceitfully or unethically so I guess you have to put it into context and think there's probably not a lot of great entrepreneurs who haven't sabotaged the modicum of ethics in their time.

The main ethical qualm people have brought up is the Bret Hart issue. He broke a legally binding contract, and got over off it. Cudos to him for doing it but it's not something ethically I'd be overly proud of. In retrospect though, it's also fair to bring into the debate the Ric Flair incident and the Alunda Blaze incident, both of whom took championship belts from their respective promotions and used them or buried them elsewhere utterly destroying those entities prestige. I think Alunda Blaze in particular hadn't have done what she did that he would feel more comfortable with allowing the operation of the contract to be executed ethically. The overriding problem though is Bret Hart seemed to have an overarching ethical persona, meaning he probably deserved the trust to be treated away from the context of the Blaze saga.

I also look at the drugs issues and also the complete and utter overworking of wrestlers as major issues in the industry that McMahon hasn't really found a strategy to cope with. At the end of the day, those things are wrestling industry issues but there'd be no more powerful stakeholder than McMahon and he has a direct say in schedule strategies that have in hindsight put human beings in positions where they physically and mentally could not cope.

I also think there's been times in his career where he's been amazingly naive, and you can see it through the nonsense spouted by Jerry Brisco on the Monday Night Wars DVD. Giving away results of a taped show on a live show? Of course that was a possibility. Wrestlers turning up on a live show while still being portrayed on his taped product? Yep, another possibility. Wrestlers on rolling contracts turning up elsewhere? No doubt. I don't think any of it was stupidity, it was naivity that WCW would act totally professionally given the heat between Turner and himself.

Like: I can't imagine I'd sit down and have a beer with him, so probably not.

Acknowledge: Sure, it's hard not to acknowledge that's been the biggest achiever in this industry, and the driver of most of the rest. I don't have any problem with him ruining the territory system, I think if he didn't do it someone else was bound to fall upon the goldmine. In fact, I reckon the reason some of them didn't publically acknowledge they had similar plans is because they didn't have the vision that he had to pull it off. There was some god awful wrestling products in dungy halls with little atmosphere and poor media coverage that people saw as the epiphany of professional wrestling, thankfully this guy saw it differently and was able to amass the resources and support required to change how we portrayed professional wrestling forever.

[Arogue]

You have to respect Vince McMahon, he's seen off a lot of challenges, he essentially revolutionised the wrestling business, he beat all his competitors, made numerous superstars in both the wrestling world and the mainstream and kept the company global, some of his choices in the promotion might not be perfect,but you've still gotta respect the hell out of him