Tweeners?

[Hive]

I know Adam doesn't want tweeners in the TEW games, but what about here? I'm thinking characters like Punisher, Venom, Lobo, etc who are all kind of in the grey zone... sometimes acting as a villain, sometimes acting as a hero. Will the game depict this?

[Remianen]

There is no such thing as a tweener in comics. The term you're looking for is 'anti-hero'. Given the sheer number of them in comics (they almost comprised their own 'age'), I'd be really surprised if that wasn't a choice in the game. I mean, some of the most popular characters in comics right now fit that description (Wolverine, Cable, Deadpool, Punisher, the entire anti-registration team during Civil War, Namor, etc).

[djthefunkchris]

My guess is that this is going to be some kind of AI Morale code thing... Hopefully like we have in TEW for personality Pluss....

Something like a Morality slider, one side really really bad, the other Really really good.

Another for law, one side totally ignores law, the other perfectly Law Abiding.

Another for Order: One side completely chaotic, very unpredictable. The other side for Perfect Order.

I'm actually hoping for a wide range of AI type sliders, so we can really flesh out the character's from alot of angles. I want my mass murdering chaotic Joker, but I want my mass murdering Luthor as well, that follows a certain logic to what he does. I want my silly types as well as very serious, etc. All the example's we could come up with being able to somehow conform into this game.

[mike b]

Luther is evil yes, he will kill you if you got in his way yes,but i would not call him a mass murder on jokers level.
He does have some morals i have seen from watching the animated movies,Justice league cartoons and comics. Heck he saved earth in the final of Justice league animated TV series at the cost of his own life.

[Hive]

There is no such thing as a tweener in comics

I disagree. Sure, the strict word 'tweener' has nothing to do with comics, and I only used it as a reference to TEW. Call them what you like, but there are people in the comics world that are both heroes and villains (or neither, if you will), depending on the circumstances or their mood. I think saying that people like Venom or The Punisher are just "heroes with disregard for laws and morality" is simplyfying them. You can call them -anti-heroes' if you will, but there should be a grey zone for them. Neither here nor there. Take Magneto, for example... a great villain who tried to destroy the human race numerous times, right? Yet he has at times been allied to and even leader of The X-Men. Would it not be overly simplified to then say he's just either a hero or villain with morality issues that differ from his peers? I think so.

This would be an oversimplifcation of things, but for those of you who have played either of the two KoTOR games, you'll know that there's a good/evil slider - and a neutral middlepoint. I'd like something along those lines.

[Self]

In the case of Magneto going from evil villain to leader of the X-Men... that's not really a tweener, that's a turn. Which is something I'd love to see in the game. Heroes and Villains changing their ways throughout the game. Be it due to major events, epiphanies, love, hate, brainwashing, circumstance, radioactive potato etc.

I would like things to be less cut & dry than Heroes vs Villains. I love the idea behind Marvel's Civil War saga (sorry, didn't read it, I don't read comics) because it wasn't good vs bad. It was two sides fighting for what they believed in. Not all heroes fight for the same reasons and beliefs, and sometimes they clash. I'd love some of that. Spiderman may be an ally most of the time, but when I plan to stop the chainsaw-weilding-bears from destroying the city by launching a bear-killing-biological weapon... Spidey don't play that way. It's combat time!

... but I guess there are tweeners. Deadpool is essentially a hero, but he's also a mercenary, and you never know what side he's going to show up on. Whoever's willing to pay usually. "An evil scientist is going to blow up Saturn!" you go to stop him and there's Deadpool. Has he been paid to protect the scientist? Or is he on his own mission of personal redemption?

[Hive]

In the case of Magneto going from evil villain to leader of the X-Men... that's not really a tweener, that's a turn. Which is something I'd love to see in the game. Heroes and Villains changing their ways throughout the game. Be it due to major events, epiphanies, love, hate, brainwashing, circumstance, radioactive potato etc.

Yeah okay I agree, Magneto was a poor example actually. A 'turn' of sorts would be better here (though not everyone should probably be able to turn, it should probably be tickable).

... but I guess there are tweeners. Deadpool is essentially a hero, but he's also a mercenary, and you never know what side he's going to show up on. Whoever's willing to pay usually. "An evil scientist is going to blow up Saturn!" you go to stop him and there's Deadpool. Has he been paid to protect the scientist? Or is he on his own mission of personal redemption?

Yeah. Deadpool, Punisher, Venom, Morbius, Namor, Elektra, etc... if only 'good' and 'evil' exist, these guys would have to be 'turned' really really often...

[djthefunkchris]

Luther is evil yes, he will kill you if you got in his way yes,but i would not call him a mass murder on jokers level.
He does have some morals i have seen from watching the animated movies,Justice league cartoons and comics. Heck he saved earth in the final of Justice league animated TV series at the cost of his own life.

His character has changed throughout the course of history, but he has also (although not in current cannon) destroyed a complete world with civilized life on it before. Not to mention that he has been able to organize crime to the extent of even having Joker on his pay-role. I don't think I've ever seen the situation the other way around.

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah okay I agree, Magneto was a poor example actually. A 'turn' of sorts would be better here (though not everyone should probably be able to turn, it should probably be tickable).



Yeah. Deadpool, Punisher, Venom, Morbius, Namor, Elektra, etc... if only 'good' and 'evil' exist, these guys would have to be 'turned' really really often...

Depends on how you look at Magneto though. The guy believes he is right (when doing "wrong"), and I don't believe he has ever been completely "Evil" in any incarnation.

[mike b]

His character has changed throughout the course of history, but he has also (although not in current cannon) destroyed a complete world with civilized life on it before. Not to mention that he has been able to organize crime to the extent of even having Joker on his pay-role. I don't think I've ever seen the situation the other way around.

We also forget that Luther originally years ago started out as a crazed mad scientist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lex_Luthor

[crayon]

Depends on how you look at Magneto though. The guy believes he is right (when doing "wrong"), and I don't believe he has ever been completely "Evil" in any incarnation.

I'd like to think that could be applied to any "villain" actually. Aside from the demons and embodiment of evil OTT type of characters, it would seem as though most believe what they're doing is the right way to act. Some have a grander vision that they can use for justification, but ultimately even someone who thinks "screw other people over before they get a chance to screw you" isn't necessarily doing it because they're more "evil" than a hero per se.

Which is kinda where the idea of tweeners becomes blurry, since normally their beliefs don't change; the situation that their beliefs use to determine how to act changes, instead.

So mugging innocent civilians may be what a character believes to be the best way to survive in this world, but when a psychotic city killer comes on the scene and threatens his town he may decide that he needs to take things into his own hands and stop this killer. It's not that he suddenly becomes more good... just that a worse guy came on the scene (who we dislike more).

It's tough to explain, but hopefully that did some justice

[Remianen]

Take Magneto, for example... a great villain who tried to destroy the human race numerous times, right? Yet he has at times been allied to and even leader of The X-Men. Would it not be overly simplified to then say he's just either a hero or villain with morality issues that differ from his peers? I think so.

You acknowledged how bad an example this was. As my favorite character in all of comics (bar none), Magneto's a bit deeper than you make him seem. In the simplest terms possible, the man's experiences (like being a Holocaust survivor) have shaped his worldview to the point where he truly believes that humans and mutants cannot coexist and thus, must either separate from each other or one side has to dominate (or exterminate) the other. That's how you get a Genosha, that's how you get House of M (Wanda gave her father the very essence of his dream), and that's how you get Magneto agreeing to lead his closest friend's (and bitterest rival's) team while he's away. It was an attempt to TRY another way (if only to see how the other half lives). In the end, his beliefs were confirmed on several occasions. There are people who would call him a villain. I'm not one of them. As the child of people who had dogs and fire hoses set on them for daring to question the status quo, I can't.

Depends on how you look at Magneto though. The guy believes he is right (when doing "wrong"), and I don't believe he has ever been completely "Evil" in any incarnation.

Yeah, that's the thing though. "Hero" and "villain" are largely subjective terms. A writer can portray someone one way or the other but the reader will identify with who they choose to. It's one reason why Raistlin Majere was (is?) Dragonlance's most popular character for decades. He wore the black robes (the physical symbol of EVIL MAGE) but people identified with him such that he pretty much HAD to be included in every major storyline.

Again, I'd be shocked (SHOCKED, I tell you) if the anti-hero subtype isn't in this game.

[mjdgoldeneye]

Yeah. Deadpool, Punisher, Venom, Morbius, Namor, Elektra, etc... if only 'good' and 'evil' exist, these guys would have to be 'turned' really really often...

In a lot of cases "Insane" is a good word to consider... :p

If that doesn't fit, "Mentally Tarnished" often works.

Look at the long list of characters who had something terrible happen to them that motivated/forced them to become who they are. In real life, people develop mental illness, phobias, etc.. In comics, they start punching/shooting things. :p

Venom is under the influence of an alien symbiote. Deadpool is an insane mercenary with nothing to lose.

Really the "nothing to lose"/"out for revenge" concept applies to most of those people you listed.

There's good, there's evil, and then there are people who don't have much of a reason to care one way or the other. And, for good measure, in almost all cases, characters like that fall under True Neutral, Chaotic Neutral, or Chaotic Good. Remember that evil is doing bad things solely for the purpose of doing bad things.

[AndyJP]

Maybe the game can use the old DnD alignment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alignment_%28Dungeons_%26_Dragons%29). I think it would work well. Anti-heroes would be absolutely essential to this game! I would love for this game to challenge me to make tough moral choices that will have future consequences.

[KyleCamelot]

I'd like to see different sliding scales based on a number of different climates (like location, hero/villains opposed, etc.), and, based on those scales, it would put and your foe as either hero or villain in that scenario.

An example would be the Civil War storyline, where, to most readers, the anti-registration side was correct, but to most of the citizens in the Marvel universe, pro-registration was correct. If Captain America wins the scenario, then, perhaps based on reputation and charisma or some other stat, he changes the political landscape.

This way you could play completely true to the morals of your character, and the world would react to you.

For example, perhaps a US superhero comes to Russia in the late 70s. He is hated at first, and perhaps even faces both superhero and supervillains at first. But, as certain Russian heroes see they have similar ideals (and are probably lower on the scale of nationalistic/anarchistic?), they warm up to him (and relationships form.) Also, in publicly doing good deeds, the citizens of Russia begin to warm to the idea of US (or simply foreign) superheroes. Likely, this would culminate in a supervillain (perhaps even one who was formerly considered a hero), becoming the arch nemesis of the American Hero, based on the fact that he is Conservative, Nationalistic, Lawful, and Narcissistic.

In fact, you could have separate scales for temperaments of the citizens of a country and a government, to allow for V for Vendetta like scenarios.

Now, this isn't going to happen this game (as Adam has already said playing villain PCs are not available first generation), but I hope the alignment/world/relationship system is based on something like this so that it can be implemented in the future.

[lazorbeak]

Honestly these examples just make it seem like we need the ability for supporting heroes to turn evil and villains to turn good, not for a "tweener" designation. All the examples provided are clear cases where a villain turned hero (Deadpool, Elektra, Punisher) and stayed that way, or else started face and turned heel (Namor) then turned back, or started heel, turned face, then turned heel again later (Venom, Sandman, Scarlet Witch, Morbius, Magneto, etc.). It's not like they were switching story to story: Venom, Deadpool and the rest became supporting protagonists of their own stories and ended up fighting villains, while somebody like Morbius or Magneto, even if they're not evil by nature or have well-meaning goals, are antagonists who the heroes have to try to stop.

[crayon]

What KyleCamelot says seems to be quite at the heart of the matter

The thing is that "hero" and "villain" aren't something that someone is. It's just terms derived from the collection of a character's percieved actions (heroic and villainous actions) for any given period of time.

And while their actions are derived from their goals and beliefs, very few characters would actually be acting out of "I'm going to be a hero!" or "My goal is to be the bad guy!".

Goals and beliefs combined with the right situation is what makes for people "turning", not a line drawn in the sand; It should be up to us (or a simulation of mass opinion) to determine if someone is a hero or a villain at any given moment, and not a true/false hero/villian flag - they're just doing what they think is right (in their opinion).

Of course that's mostly pie in the sky stuff which would require an intensive personality system to really be effective, but still. It's a nice thought.

[lazorbeak]

What KyleCamelot says seems to be quite at the heart of the matter

The thing is that "hero" and "villain" aren't something that someone is. It's just terms derived from the collection of a character's percieved actions (heroic and villainous actions) for any given period of time.

And while their actions are derived from their goals and beliefs, very few characters would actually be acting out of "I'm going to be a hero!" or "My goal is to be the bad guy!".

Goals and beliefs combined with the right situation is what makes for people "turning", not a line drawn in the sand; It should be up to us (or a simulation of mass opinion) to determine if someone is a hero or a villain at any given moment, and not a true/false hero/villian flag - they're just doing what they think is right (in their opinion).

Of course that's mostly pie in the sky stuff which would require an intensive personality system to really be effective, but still. It's a nice thought.

The difference is, you are talking about personal motivations, and I'm talking about narrative functions: yes, there's a lot of them. Not all "heroes" have heroic motivations, not all villains want to steal candy from babies.

But in the narrative, heroes and villains are distinct roles: villains are the ones upsetting the natural order by robbing banks, making a big scene in the park, endangering civilians, etc. The heroes are the guys who have to stop them and try to preserve the natural order. If Magneto shows up in an X-Men comic, his role is for the X-Men to try to stop him. Regardless of his motives, he's a villain, and the X-Men are the heroes.

That's how you can see clear-cut "turns" where a character's role switched from being a "can superhero X defeat Elektra?" to "can Elektra defeat villain Y?" For one thing, villains are very rarely given their own comics where they're the protagonists. This is why popular characters tend to be the ones that turn: there's only so much you can do with a popular villain: even a classic villain like the Joker disappears from Batman comics for years at a time, whereas Deadpool gets 50 ongoing titles a month and appears in all of them.

[crayon]

The difference is, you are talking about personal motivations, and I'm talking about narrative functions: yes, there's a lot of them. Not all "heroes" have heroic motivations, not all villains want to steal candy from babies.

But in the narrative, heroes and villains are distinct roles: villains are the ones upsetting the natural order by robbing banks, making a big scene in the park, endangering civilians, etc. The heroes are the guys who have to stop them and try to preserve the natural order. If Magneto shows up in an X-Men comic, his role is for the X-Men to try to stop him. Regardless of his motives, he's a villain, and the X-Men are the heroes.

That's how you can see clear-cut "turns" where a character's role switched from being a "can superhero X defeat Elektra?" to "can Elektra defeat villain Y?" For one thing, villains are very rarely given their own comics where they're the protagonists. This is why popular characters tend to be the ones that turn: there's only so much you can do with a popular villain: even a classic villain like the Joker disappears from Batman comics for years at a time, whereas Deadpool gets 50 ongoing titles a month and appears in all of them.

Oh I hear you and understand how that's the most straight forward implementation for a game. But from a philosophical view, the X-Men are still only "heroes" because that's what we (or others within the narrative who we already consider heroes) deem them to be, because of their actions. Perhaps even moreso, it's because of the existence of who we consider to be villains, as the villain gives us a comparative yard stick by which we can measure who to root for (which is how we can come to accept an anti-hero, even if they don't align with our ideal view of how things are done).

Even with clear-cut turns and narrative functions, however, you can't remove personal motivations, though. In the classic days of heroes and villains, sure. But nowadays there's more moral ambiguity where someone can show glimpses of a good or darker side in the name of character development, all the while retaining their status as the hero or villain.

If Magneto shows up in an X-Men comic, his role is for the X-Men to try to stop him.

It's probably not the point you were making, but I expect that example has some caveats attached.