So can you play as a villain? confused

[Lashley]

in the FAQ its says you cannot however I'm reading on the forums that you can? you can be anti-hero, etc?

[Arrows]

in the FAQ its says you cannot however I'm reading on the forums that you can? you can be anti-hero, etc?

Anti-hero =/= Villain.

Anti-Heroes are good guys who lean neutral. It's not that simple, but that's the idea.

[Lashley]

ah right awesome, so can you do bad things like rob, kill?

[SGRaaize]

Doubt you can rob, but you might be able to kill the Villains you catch

[OctoberRaven]

Well, Punisher frequently 'aquired' stuff from gangs he raided, which is why he has the resources he has.

[mike b]

Anti hero= bat man,wolverine,punisher people like that.

Anti hero's are more loner type hero's. The ones people view as vigilant's so forth.

[Aldenvdk]

Anti hero= bat man,wolverine,punisher people like that.

Anti hero's are more loner type hero's. The ones people view as vigilant's so forth.

Good definition buddy.

[mike b]

Good definition buddy.

Thanks, I have always been a fan of the anti hero type. My 1st rookie hero will probably be a anti hero character.

Course when the 1st mod with batman in it comes out ill probably use him 1st game instead of making a rookie lol.

[praguepride]

Batman is considered an anti-hero? :eek:

[Arrows]

Batman is considered an anti-hero? :eek:

Yeap. Probably the best anti-hero.

[praguepride]

Really? I see Punisher because he does dastardly things, but Batman? Batman doesn't kill, in fact he's got a strict "I don't kill" policy in most of the comics I've read...

[theripper1]

Yep, Batman is just a hero in my opinion.

I'd say a good example of the differences would be Goku and Vegeta from DBZ once Vegeta is officially on the good side. Goku's a nice guy who doesn't want to kill anybody, and I believe he was going to spare Frieza so that he could become a better person; Frieza was the man who enslaved Goku's entire race, destroyed his home planet and killed his father. Goku only wants what is best for others and because of this he is a hero. Vegeta on the other hand is a ruthless character who, although he does have his moments of kindness, is primarily a jerk who wants to kill his enemies and wants what is best for himself in the long run, which makes him an anti-hero.

[crayon]

The way I normally sum up anti-heroes is by saying that if the anti-heroes weren't in our good graces by fighting off bigger jerks than themselves, then they would probably be the villains that the regular heroes go after

[damientheomen3]

Yep, Batman is just a hero in my opinion.

I'd say a good example of the differences would be Goku and Vegeta from DBZ once Vegeta is officially on the good side. Goku's a nice guy who doesn't want to kill anybody, and I believe he was going to spare Frieza so that he could become a better person; Frieza was the man who enslaved Goku's entire race, destroyed his home planet and killed his father. Goku only wants what is best for others and because of this he is a hero. Vegeta on the other hand is a ruthless character who, although he does have his moments of kindness, is primarily a jerk who wants to kill his enemies and wants what is best for himself in the long run, which makes him an anti-hero.

My plan for CBH is to actually make a DBZ mod and play the crap out of it :D

[mike b]

Ok so we are on the ropes about batman.

Did some googling this was interesting concerning bat's as a anti hero.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090830182953AAu7lCq

Maybe he should be classified a dark hero.

[crayon]

Despite what my own opinion of what an anti-hero is/was, if we consider Tvtropes as telling the truth (which they must be because they're on the internets, obviously), it's any hero whose traits are opposing to what a conventional hero is. (Which I guess is pretty much what it says on the tin, "anti" and all)

So by that end, an anti-hero doesn't have to necessarily be some kind of badass loner who pushes the boundaries of the law. A hero who is a weak, ineffective sad-sack who has ADD could also be classed as an anti-hero.

[Remianen]

Yeap. Probably the best anti-hero.

Yep, Batman is just a hero in my opinion.

Batman is an anti-hero in "The Dark Knight" series/persona. When Frank Miller wrote him, Batman was unquestionably an anti-hero. In the more mainstream, "for all audiences" titles, he's a normal hero. The titles where Batman kicks serious ass, he's an anti-hero. When he gets his ass kicked (hi Bane!), he's a regular hero.

On the fantasy side, Drizzt Do'Urden is a hero. Drizzt Do'Urden in "The Hunter" persona, is an anti-hero.


And I seriously doubt CBH will allow you to play as a full-on villain.

[Lashley]

Shame, would have been fun

[Arrows]

Batman is an anti-hero in "The Dark Knight" series/persona. When Frank Miller wrote him, Batman was unquestionably an anti-hero. In the more mainstream, "for all audiences" titles, he's a normal hero. The titles where Batman kicks serious ass, he's an anti-hero. When he gets his ass kicked (hi Bane!), he's a regular hero.

On the fantasy side, Drizzt Do'Urden is a hero. Drizzt Do'Urden in "The Hunter" persona, is an anti-hero.


And I seriously doubt CBH will allow you to play as a full-on villain.

Good explanation.

[damientheomen3]

Adam said that if CBH does well enough to warrant a sequel, said sequel would very likely allow you to play as a villain. So, let's all buy CBH 10 times to make sure it sells well enough. :D

[crayon]

And I guess at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what any one definition of anti-hero is. All that matters is how Adam has decided to abstract it for gameplay.

If he decides that an anti-hero is any hero who worships gerbils, then all we need to be concerned with is making sure that we apply it characters who we want to restrict from fighting crime on the weekend so that they can appear to be doing their furry religious duty.

After all, it's just some form of a boundary line that says this can and this can't happen -- all of which happens to have the label of "anti-hero" attached to it

[mike b]

True that Remian

[Payne]

First thing I think of, and probably best example of an anti-hero (IMO) would be Venom. When he went.....good...ish. He killed criminals, but never hurt the innocent.

[mike b]

True Payne. Forgot all about him.

[Recoil]

Batman is considered an anti-hero because he breaks laws to bring about the greater good. Killing is not a necessity, and by not killing he remains a morally and ethically justified anti-hero.

Punisher and Ghost Rider would be considered an anti-heroes as well, but more so than Batman, as his ultimate purpose is to punish those REGARDLESS of the moral or ethical implications. Unlike Superman or Batman, they ignore the law and legal systems that society has setup to protect those that may truly be innocent.

Comic book writers make things simple and always make sure we know that the person being punished is amoral and that despite the anti-heroes decisions, we feel that what is done is morally justified.

You do not see Ghost Rider or Punisher breaking into a corporate office and taking out Bernie Madoff, who's Ponzi scheme helped cripple the US economy and destroyed the lively hood of thousands of people.

[shamelessposer]

Batman is considered an anti-hero because he breaks laws to bring about the greater good. Killing is not a necessity, and by not killing he remains a morally and ethically justified anti-hero.

Superman is considered an anti-hero because he breaks laws to bring about the greater good. Killing is not a necessity, and by not killing he remains a morally and ethically justified anti-hero.

(And Superman has more recorded sentient kills on record, too.)

[praguepride]

Batman is an anti-hero in "The Dark Knight" series/persona. When Frank Miller wrote him, Batman was unquestionably an anti-hero. In the more mainstream, "for all audiences" titles, he's a normal hero. The titles where Batman kicks serious ass, he's an anti-hero. When he gets his ass kicked (hi Bane!), he's a regular hero.

On the fantasy side, Drizzt Do'Urden is a hero. Drizzt Do'Urden in "The Hunter" persona, is an anti-hero.


And I seriously doubt CBH will allow you to play as a full-on villain.


I can concede when Frank Miller writes him he's an anti-hero as Frank Miller is all about the anti-heroes, but I disagree with the rest your statement.

When Batman kicks serious ass does not make him an anti-hero, it's when he does so in a way that a regular hero would be opposed to. I think some good checklists would be:

- serious physical torture (beyond just slapping a mook around a bit), ESPECIALLY if it's for a personal pleasure/revenge rather then just looking for information on the Big Bad (e.g. Punisher)
- greed - fighting crime because he's being paid to or looting the bodies (e.g. Catwoman / Lobo)
- complete disregard for collateral damage (e.g. Modern Hulk)
- Taking Personal Pleasure in inflicting violence upon others (e.g. Wolverine / Deadpoole/Punisher)


Drizzt in the "hunter" persona...I wouldn't classify that as an anti-hero as he doesn't show a complete lack of regard for others, so much as just devolving into a more animalistic nature. Just because a person with pacifistic tendancies switches to a more aggressive personality does not automatically make them an "anti-hero". I would say that it switches Drizzt from a regular fantasy hero to a Dark Hero with a touch of Animal Fury.

YMMV but as Crayon said, an anti-hero is one step away from being a villain just as soon as he stops hunting down the baddies. Punisher, could totally see a hero fighting with him over his methods. Deadpoole? Lobo? Check and check. Wolverine is often portrayed as a bit of a tweener but because he always lands on the side of good, I'd smack him with the anti-hero label.

But Batman? Unless it's a contrived story plot I just don't see Superman hunting down Batman because he punched one too many faces in. The "regular" Batman is a big proponent for the sanctity of life. Yes he breaks the law but it's usually the softer laws like "privacy" and "probable cause" and not the "murder/arson/rape" trio that is usually associated with the baddies.

[VTial]

an anti-hero is one step away from being a villain just as soon as he stops hunting down the baddies

I didn't follow the conversation and really all the other definitions that I managed to read can be considered semantical but this is just clearly wrong.

An anti-hero is never close to a villain at all if they just stop hunting down the baddies.

I think guys like Bats who have multiple alignments but for comic book reasons are never sold as villains like Pre-Crisis Supes confuse the category.

An anti-hero is someone who would come close or does villainous things to villains or does things in such a weird manner that you can't call them heroes but they do heroic things anyway. However they are always on the side of good. One could even say they are often the ones least likely to turn evil because they don't have a naive perception of what a superhero needs to do.

I'm not sure if this definition won't receive critics but basically when you cut away all the stereotypes down, anti-hero is just a simpler keyword for every unorthodox hero. This shouldn't be confused with clear cut heroes that are simply strange say Bouncing Boy.

Wild cards are the ones that come close to being villains but it's not the only word. Tweener, backstabber, vigilante, mercenary. All these could be wild cards.

Bats just has popular hero rights where they want him to get away as a vigilante but he cannot kill therefore he's often stereotyped as an anti-hero for convenience sakes.

It gets even hoakier with Wolverine. Basically Wolverine is an anti-hero just so that Marvel and Wolverine fans can say he's a badass and not just a Captain America copy but with bits of Superman put into him because if they do that Wolverine just looks like an ADD roid rager with retractable claws that is given Pre-Crisis Supes' writer imposed invincibility and that's just lame. It's another common example of category dilution. Anti-hero for popular characters can just as mean bad-ass hero. (Again, notice the pattern with Batman)

Villain switching is also allowed for a hero if it's for a good reason and they don't have to be an anti-hero.

If Spidey disguises himself because he's a wanted criminal and works with the Trapper, he's not a wild card nor a clear cut anti-hero. He's a mixture of hero and anti-hero depending not on what he does but on which terms and portrayal would sell Spidey better in the mind of the comic book producers.

(For a weirder example of this, Scarlet Spidey and Clone Spider-man are pretty much the same characters but since Scarlet Spidey looks like a bad ass and Clone Spidey had a Steve Rogers look and the name Spider-man, the former is an anti-hero and the latter is even more heroic than Peter Parker ever was.)

For those who've watched the Animated Teen Titans, Robin is a great example of someone who has done all three things but when he did the things everyone here described of him, he was of a different category.

Robin Pre-TT (the one in the TT flashback who left Bats and not the other animated versions) is an anti-hero not because he was a loner or he was close to turning evil but because he was simply using wait for it...non-kiddy colored batarangs. Basically same character, who happens to ride a motorcycle because he left someone and hasn't been a loner for that long of a time, becomes bad-ass and has a meaner face = anti-hero.

Yet Robin as Red X is not an anti-hero either. He's either a clear cut villain (like Catwoman when she's not the main character/romantic interest) or he's a hero pretending to be a villain. Yet all the symptoms of Robin being an anti-hero is there including stepping to the dark side and being a villain to his teammates. What makes him not be considered an anti-hero? Again wait for it...he's not an anti-hero because Red X wanted to help Slade rather than hurt Slade until he turns back into Robin.

Finally Robin is a hero and not an anti-hero for the rest of the TT including when he was as a loner in the future because...wait for it Robin/Nightwing fought villains in a clear heroic manner. He was never shown holding thugs on top of rooftops. Same character as Batman but because they didn't show him being a dick, he's not an anti-hero.

Now I'm not saying these are the official perceptions of Robin in TT. Many of these can sound semantical especially for those who didn't watch the show. However for those who watch the show, hopefully it makes the category much more clearer. Anti-heroes are not a specific status. They can be, like if Adam wants that category in, but the fine line between Anti-Hero and Hero is simply based on how writers want to paint a hero as.

Even Frank Miller who praguepride says is all about anti-heroes, differentiated Marv, The Sin City Marine and Daredevil so much that they were clearly heroes relative to the people that were put around them that the only way they could be considered anti-heroes is if you admit that Frank Miller intended to create a world where there are totally no heroes because if there were, these guys would be heroes despite the fact that if you judge these guys by their actions alone - they could easily be considered anti-heroes and would be considered anti-heroes in a more family friendly universe.

[lazorbeak]

It feels like a lot of people don't really know what an anti-hero is. From wiki:

"In fiction, an antihero (sometimes antiheroine as feminine) is generally considered to be a protagonist whose character is at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis. Some consider the word's meaning to be sufficiently broad as to additionally encompass the antagonist who (in contrast to the archetypal villain) elicits considerable sympathy or admiration."


Batman approaches anti-hero levels in DKR, but in Miller's Year One he's still clearly a standard comic book hero. Scarlet Spider and Nightwing and others aren't "anti-heroes" according to any usage of the term, just because they're slightly "cooler" designs/names/gimmicks than their better known personas. Even Wolverine is pretty marginally an anti-hero these days: he was during that time in the 80's when he first became a big deal, but nowadays he's pretty much just another hero.

Rorschach is an anti-hero according to the standard usage: he's a poor, ugly, mentally disturbed lunatic who fights crime, and doesn't play nice by webbing villains to streetlamps or putting them in big Bat-nets for the police to find. He's also lacking almost every trait we usually associate with heroism except for his strength of will. Venom in his brain-eating "lethal protector" days of the 90's, Lobo and Hitman from DC in the 90's, John Constantine, etc. are all good examples, as all had pretty substantial negative personality traits despite being comic book protagonists.

Basically, an anti-hero may do the right thing, but for the "wrong" (unheroic) reason: because they like violence, because they are paid to, because they are the sovereign leader of Atlantis. They can also be characters that are basically doing the heroic thing most of the time, but are seen by others as villains so they are regularly forced into conflict with more traditional heroes, usually due to their side job of being a mercenary/assassin/cat burglar/whatever, or their incredibly abrasive personality or both.

[VTial]

Wikipedia has become more and more unreliable as it starts to encompass more unique items that are normally not included such as comic book heroes. If you compare something as basic and generalistic as TVTropes to Wikipedia, Wikipedia loses even though it's supposed to be an encyclopedia where TVTropes is just a collection.

Plus, you forgot these things above the Wikipedia link for anti-hero:

This article's lead section may not adequately summarize its contents. Please consider expanding the lead to provide an accessible overview of the article's key points. (February 2010)

Not only that you broke this rule:

"In fiction, an antihero (sometimes antiheroine as feminine) is generally considered to be a protagonist whose character is at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis. Some consider the word's meaning to be sufficiently broad as to additionally encompass the antagonist who (in contrast to the archetypal villain) elicits considerable sympathy or admiration."

Rorchach is an example of a broad category just like Batman. The way he is portrayed as a protagonist is that he is an anti-hero to the fans/readers of Watchmen. However plot-wise, without spoiling anything, even the way he was told when he was captured by the cops paints him more as a wild card. All of Watchmen characters were meant to be that way. Most fans just don't bother to go past the definitions of anti-hero, hero or villain in most Western superhero comics and while Watchmen may have broken some molds when it was released, this doesn't mean those things don't apply to the comics especially since Watchmen is still poking holes into the traditional Western costumed superhero morality and not some off-shoot world like Sin City or some mature depiction like Daredevil.

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of right in your post but there's so much wrong that it just loops the problems of defining anti-heroes back onto itself again. You're just trying to fit your definition without creating any room for the very post you quoted where it needs to take into account broad strokes. Worse, like any bad reader, you lump all my more specific points into general points so something like Nightwing from TT is lost and you're just treating your bio perception of the character. Not even taking account the character developments those heroes took. Something that is especially important to characters like Nightwing because of his relation to Bludhaven (the more violent Gotham) and Slade and these are just the surface as the character over the years becomes confusingly depicted and with less justice than Batman's flip flopping alignments.

One other thing: unheroic can be considered weasel word-ish in the sense that what is right and wrong depends not only on the universe but who is portrayed as who. Someone like Captain America regardless of their actions are often portrayed as heroic and rising above their standards where as a similar clone like US Agent gets twisted around for plot lines that could simply end up getting them stereotyped as an anti-hero or villain for convenience sakes. The same holds true for the Nick Fury and Punisher comparisons and tons of other clones where the fine line can pretty much fall not on who the characters are but how they should be specifically portrayed in a specific arc to sell the comics or build the character.

[crayon]

I'll just reiterate what I said earlier, lest this spawns multiple pages of opinion, and that's that the only definition of anti-hero which matters is Adam Ryland's definition of anti-hero. He could be right, wrong, or anything in between, but at the end of the day that's the rules we're going have to play (and set characters up) by

[VTial]

That's true and I never denied that. Just to clarify to those who want to push their definition over everyone else, my post was not me adding my own take of what anti-heroes are and claiming it's the end be all superior version.

That was only an extension to this point:

I didn't follow the conversation and really all the other definitions that I managed to read can be considered semantical but this is just clearly wrong. (etc. etc.)

an anti-hero is one step away from being a villain just as soon as he stops hunting down the baddies

Of course I had to add part of my own view of what anti-heroes are to show where this is clearly different from semantics and is clearly wrong. My follow-up reply was similarly not me defending my position as superior but simply highlighting where the premise of lazorbeak was flawed and where he twisted my own words to say something else.

[lazorbeak]

My follow-up reply was similarly not me defending my position as superior but simply highlighting where the premise of lazorbeak was flawed and where he twisted my own words to say something else.

How, exactly was my premise flawed? I worked from a definition, gave examples, and showed the false distinction people were making between "cool" heroes and actual anti-heroes. And I didn't "twist" your words. I didn't quote you or address the points you made.

Rorchach is an example of a broad category just like Batman. The way he is portrayed as a protagonist is that he is an anti-hero to the fans/readers of Watchmen. However plot-wise, without spoiling anything, even the way he was told when he was captured by the cops paints him more as a wild card. All of Watchmen characters were meant to be that way. Most fans just don't bother to go past the definitions of anti-hero, hero or villain in most Western superhero comics and while Watchmen may have broken some molds when it was released, this doesn't mean those things don't apply to the comics especially since Watchmen is still poking holes into the traditional Western costumed superhero morality and not some off-shoot world like Sin City or some mature depiction like Daredevil.

First, wild card is a term made up by Adam for this game; arguing Rorschach is not an anti-hero is just hilarious to me, as he's pretty much THE definition of anti-hero. As I explained in my last post, Rorschach's only "heroic" trait is that he never gives up and never stops fighting, but his morality is too skewed and his personality is too damaged for him to be anything but an anti-hero. Adam's own definition of wild card says it's someone that sometimes acts as a hero or a villain, and that's obviously not Rorschach, in the context of Watchmen or in the basic nature of his character. He's always fighting the good fight, he's just doing it for the wrong reasons and nobody trusts him. See: anti-hero. Namor is an anti-hero that is a "wild card" for the purposes of this game, since he's frequently used as a villain but can just as easily be used as a hero. Bane and the rest of the Secret Six are also anti-heroes who can actually be used as villains, so they would technically be "wild cards," which again, is a made up designation for the game.

I'm not saying there isn't a lot of right in your post but there's so much wrong that it just loops the problems of defining anti-heroes back onto itself again. You're just trying to fit your definition without creating any room for the very post you quoted where it needs to take into account broad strokes. Worse, like any bad reader, you lump all my more specific points into general points so something like Nightwing from TT is lost and you're just treating your bio perception of the character. Not even taking account the character developments those heroes took. Something that is especially important to characters like Nightwing because of his relation to Bludhaven (the more violent Gotham) and Slade and these are just the surface as the character over the years becomes confusingly depicted and with less justice than Batman's flip flopping alignments.

There's so much "wrong"? Like, what, exactly? You haven't even approached proving anything wrong? I'm not just "treating my bio perception" (whatever that means) of Nightwing when I say he's not an anti-hero, because he isn't. At all. And none of the points you are trying to make even remotely address how he's not an anti-hero. Where is Grayson's lack of heroic qualities? Where is his abrasive personality that makes other heroes distrust him or not work with him? Do people think he's a villain? Does he show no remorse or hesitation killing guys? It shows a lack of understanding of what I'm talking about that you're still trying to make this point.


One other thing: unheroic can be considered weasel word-ish in the sense that what is right and wrong depends not only on the universe but who is portrayed as who. Someone like Captain America regardless of their actions are often portrayed as heroic and rising above their standards where as a similar clone like US Agent gets twisted around for plot lines that could simply end up getting them stereotyped as an anti-hero or villain for convenience sakes. The same holds true for the Nick Fury and Punisher comparisons and tons of other clones where the fine line can pretty much fall not on who the characters are but how they should be specifically portrayed in a specific arc to sell the comics or build the character.

Maybe I needed to be clearer with "heroic" then, because this is not true either. Heroic means the character has the personality traits associated with "heroes"- selflessness, determination, a sense of right and wrong, etc. A "clone" like US Agent is a deliberate warping of these heroic attributes (that's why he was created in the first place) into something that doesn't fit the standard depiction of a hero (he's a jerk), but still fights bad guys along with the heroes. But no, it doesn't depend on the universe, it depends on the character's actions.

[Vladamire Dracos]

An interesting comparison would be Poison Ivy and Catwoman. Both generally have the same motivation for the "good" they do (protecting nature/wildlife), but they have very different ways of going about it. Catwoman would likely be considered an Anti-Hero, while there's little question that Ivy is a Villain. Catwoman wouldn't bomb a company she thinks is involved in illegally clear cutting a rainforest (although she might break several laws to prove they are), Ivy on the otherhand wouldn't have any qualms doing so.

Wildcards are almost certainly meant for those characters whose perceptions are so alien to ours that things like morals or good and evil don't apply to their way of thinking as it does ours. In Startrek terms creatures like the Q or the Prophets would be Wildcards. Simple mindless creatures like the Giant Space Amoeba from The Immunity Syndrome (ST: TOS) would also likely fit as they're driven by instinct.

[Adam Ryland]

NB: The definitions are as simple as the journal post stated.

An anti-hero is someone who fights bad guys but whose morality or methods mean he is not an accepted member of the heroic community. Example: The Punisher.

A wildcard is someone who will commit crimes and fight against heroes on some occasions, and fight with the heroes to stop crimes on others. Example: Hulk (i.e. clashes with heroes when on a rampage, fights with them against villains at other times).

[VTial]

How, exactly was my premise flawed? I worked from a definition, gave examples, and showed the false distinction people were making between "cool" heroes and actual anti-heroes. And I didn't "twist" your words. I didn't quote you or address the points you made.

I don't know how much you like long posts so I'll just keep it short (because there are a lot of posters in this forum who love throwing thinly veiled insults that gets past the mods if a post is too long or will just roll their eyes or do as you have done and claim innocence) so here's the nitty gritty of what you've avoided in your latest post:

This article's lead section may not adequately summarize its contents. Please consider expanding the lead to provide an accessible overview of the article's key points. (February 2010)

"In fiction, an antihero (sometimes antiheroine as feminine) is generally considered to be a protagonist whose character is at least in some regards conspicuously contrary to that of the archetypal hero, and is in some instances its antithesis. Some consider the word's meaning to be sufficiently broad as to additionally encompass the antagonist who (in contrast to the archetypal villain) elicits considerable sympathy or admiration."

You also didn't quote me but you did address my post and twisted it and here's a thinly veiled insult:

It feels like a lot of people don't really know what an anti-hero is.

Scarlet Spider and Nightwing and others aren't "anti-heroes" according to any usage of the term, just because they're slightly "cooler" designs/names/gimmicks than their better known personas

Like Adam and crayon hinted, all that matters is how specifically Adam translates the definition to the game.

Sure with a comic book based game, it's hard to not go Dog Pound on it and make it a semantical issue and there are people like you who would insist on their definition but if you're going to insist that by twisting the posts of others and then later claim innocence and specifically avoid the heart of my reply then at least have the decency to admit it. We can play circles around Rorschach and Nightwing and other heroes but to repeat what I said, I was only addressing a specific point made by crayon and I only replied to you and took on your points because you twisted the meaning of my post.

[lazorbeak]

You'd think Adam clarifying things would be the end of it, but I guess that's wishful thinking.

I don't know how much you like long posts so I'll just keep it short (because there are a lot of posters in this forum who love throwing thinly veiled insults that gets past the mods if a post is too long or will just roll their eyes or do as you have done and claim innocence) so here's the nitty gritty of what you've avoided in your latest post:

Roll my eyes and claim innocence? What are you talking about?


You also didn't quote me but you did address my post and twisted it and here's a thinly veiled insult:

Wow. Not only was I not referring just to you (lot of people =/ just you), the idea that "It feels like a lot of people don't really know what an anti-hero is" followed by a definition of "anti-hero" is a "thinly veiled insult" is just too funny. Not only is it not directed at you, it's not an insult! It's an observation that was immediately followed by supporting information.

Sure with a comic book based game, it's hard to not go Dog Pound on it and make it a semantical issue and there are people like you who would insist on their definition but if you're going to insist that by twisting the posts of others and then later claim innocence and specifically avoid the heart of my reply then at least have the decency to admit it. We can play circles around Rorschach and Nightwing and other heroes but to repeat what I said, I was only addressing a specific point made by crayon and I only replied to you and took on your points because you twisted the meaning of my post.

It's not my definition. I'm responding to you again because you are just completely wrong in saying that I "twisted" the meaning of your post. It's just completely false. I provided a helpful definition and gave examples, examples that are supported by the game creator's post. Yes, I explained an incorrect distinction you and others made. That's not "twisting" anything. I took what you said and compared it against a definition that wasn't mine. I don't have any obligation to respond to every thing you say, particularly when I am trying to make a helpful, positive post, not just say "a, b, and c are wrong." I'm not "twisting" anything, I'm just singling out something you (and others, which is why I wasn't responding to you specifically) said that isn't supported by any standard usage of the term "anti-hero."

To be clear, the game's anti-hero is an anti-hero. For the purposes of the game, a "wild card" is a separate class of what's still generally considered an "anti-hero," featuring characters that can act either as heroes or as villains, mainly depending on if they're featured in their own book or appearing as a bad guy in someone else's. Secret Six, Venom, Taskmaster in the past few years, etc. They still fit the definition of "anti-hero" and have all been protagonists, but for the purposes of the game they're separated from guys like Rorschach, the Punisher, and other heroes that don't get along with other heroes, but are still generally on the "hero" side of the spectrum.

[djthefunkchris]

NB: The definitions are as simple as the journal post stated.

An anti-hero is someone who fights bad guys but whose morality or methods mean he is not an accepted member of the heroic community. Example: The Punisher.

A wildcard is someone who will commit crimes and fight against heroes on some occasions, and fight with the heroes to stop crimes on others. Example: Hulk (i.e. clashes with heroes when on a rampage, fights with them against villains at other times).

Ya know, I was going to point out all kinds of reasons I think Batman should be considered an Anti-Hero, but he doesn't meet one of the criteria's here....

Batman is considered a member of the heroic community (for the most part).

Reason's I was going to state...

- serious physical torture (beyond just slapping a mook around a bit), ESPECIALLY if it's for a personal pleasure/revenge rather then just looking for information on the Big Bad (e.g. Punisher)Batman has done this, to the point of letting them die.

- greed - fighting crime because he's being paid to or looting the bodies (e.g. Catwoman / Lobo)
Don't recall him ever being paid to do it, but I do know his Batcave is filled with all kinds of goodies from the bad guys.

- complete disregard for collateral damage (e.g. Modern Hulk)He's not on the strength level of Hulk, so he wouldn't be toppling buildings, but he has never had a problem with breaking down doors and picking up whatever is around to use as a weapon... OF course, if there were priceless jewels or whatever around, he would definately try NOT to damage that... but you won't see him running around like Jackie Chan trying to "save" everything.

- Taking Personal Pleasure in inflicting violence upon others (e.g. Wolverine / Deadpoole/Punisher)Alot of times, he really wants to but holds himself back. He definately enjoys it though.

Batman has, and probably will again, Kill. He at one time used a gun... In his early days it wasn't a big deal for him to kill someone. Going into the 70's/80's it was very unnussual.

He's accepted by other's as a Hero though, as he's saved Gotham many times, to the point where normal citizens think of him as a hero. He's saved the world enough times for "God-Like" hero's to consider him an equal.

The thing is, He also keeps records of all the other hero's weakness just as he does the criminals. He intentionally finds their weakness "just in case" he has to stop them later. The intention is good, but you don't see this amoung other hero's, and the fact some of them know this makes him a "creepy" person for them to be around.

It's really more of a matter of what he is going to represent in your game more then anything, and whose/which version you want him to be. I'm sure there are going to be some that think of him as the "No killing" type, and some that think of him from his earlier more Punisher type character. Either is alright, I supposed, as long as we recognize him.

[VTial]

@lazorbeak, whatever. I've already exposed you. You can play circles around the evidence but I'm not interested in these peek a boo style of arguments.

@dj,

This is all that everyone needs to know about him when debating where he stands:

http://digitalculture-ed.net/tracys/files/2009/11/batman-alignment-1024x819.jpg

Bats will always be someone who can stand above types. His status is not dependent on who he is but on where modders want to put him in.

[Quackmoo]

Neutral looks like the scariest one :o

[Quackmoo]

Chaotic Evil looks amazing

[lazorbeak]

@lazorbeak, whatever. I've already exposed you. You can play circles around the evidence but I'm not interested in these peek a boo style of arguments.

Ooooookay then.

[InfectedGT]

Ooooookay then.

What does he mean by exposed, did he strip you nude or something?

[explodercide]

An interesting conversation. I think for the purposes of the game I would have considered Batman to be a hero. He does tend to stray into anti-hero territory, but for the most part he is a hero.

Rorshach would be the perfect example of an anti-hero i think, and or The Comedian as well, he's a pretty amoral chap, tries to rape Sally Jupiter, but fights for the good guys.

On that note though, pretty much all the super-heroes in Garth Ennis' The Boys would probably be anti-heroes, seeing as they are almost all repugnant people, driven by their celebrity to indulge themselves in anyway way they like.

[praguepride]

Rorsarch is definitly an anti-hero to the point that he comes into direct conflict with the others over his methods and avenues.

The Comedian...probably wouldn't be an anti-hero actually. Although he's a complete jackass he's also widely accepted as a "hero" albeit one with plenty of skeletons in his closet.

[Remianen]

I can concede when Frank Miller writes him he's an anti-hero as Frank Miller is all about the anti-heroes, but I disagree with the rest your statement.

When Batman kicks serious ass does not make him an anti-hero, it's when he does so in a way that a regular hero would be opposed to.

When Batman kicks serious ass is ONLY when he does so in a way that Superman (the idiot idealist) would be opposed to. Like when Frank Miller writes him.

Drizzt in the "hunter" persona...I wouldn't classify that as an anti-hero as he doesn't show a complete lack of regard for others, so much as just devolving into a more animalistic nature. Just because a person with pacifistic tendancies switches to a more aggressive personality does not automatically make them an "anti-hero". I would say that it switches Drizzt from a regular fantasy hero to a Dark Hero with a touch of Animal Fury.

I would suggest you read the series over again, and not just the more recent tripe (when he turns into a wuss until you threaten to harm his "family" and seemingly every new 'big bad' is able to fight him to a standstill, making Entreri not all that special anymore). In The Hunter persona, even Guenhwyvar is afraid of him. I don't judge that persona by what shows up in later incarnations ("The Thousand Orcs", for example). I judge it by its purest form, in the Dark Elf Trilogy (when he killed duergar and sverneblin indiscriminately, acts that would be deplorable to him and others ordinarily). In the later books, how many times did he lament his time in the Underdark (primarily as The Hunter) and how his father would turn away from him if he had known? He wasn't subduing illithids, he was murdering them outright (a few times before they even knew he was there). If you need me to quote chapter and verse, I can.

But Adam has defined the term as it will apply to this game so what the rest of us think doesn't really matter too much.

[VTial]

When Batman kicks serious ass is ONLY when he does so in a way that Superman (the idiot idealist) would be opposed to. Like when Frank Miller writes him.

Again this is not me trying to convince anyone of my definition of anti-heroes. Just pointing out this is wrong.

Superman is not exactly Captain Marvel (especially the animated depictions) and over the years he has mellowed out on the idiot idealist.

It's when Superman is painted as a paragon and less of an idiot idealist but a man that wants to enforce his views on others that he and Batman even get to the point of opposing each other.

Batman is not changing to be an anti-hero while Superman is staying the same. In almost every sequence, Superman becomes a wild card and Batman becomes the rebel to root for against the paragon with powers to burn the planet.

In wrestling analogy, this is akin to saying that when Bret uses chairs to win and rants about the superiority of Canada, he is being the same face except Stone Cold goes over the edge and so Bret ends up not only becoming opposed to Austin but to all the audience. It's wrong. Even if it's a subtle transition from face to tweener and heel, it's still the idealist changing more than the other person which often generates the extreme reaction for both sides to fight each other.

[mike b]

We will have to by what Adam has stated for game

NB: The definitions are as simple as the journal post stated.

An anti-hero is someone who fights bad guys but whose morality or methods mean he is not an accepted member of the heroic community. Example: The Punisher.

A wildcard is someone who will commit crimes and fight against heroes on some occasions, and fight with the heroes to stop crimes on others. Example: Hulk (i.e. clashes with heroes when on a rampage, fights with them against villains at other times).

Bat Man would be a hero going by this.

Thats why i hope this game has Personalty's for heros n villains like TEW has

[VTial]

Well, I'm not trying to put words in Adam's mouth, but judging by his previous games - it's more likely that Batman would be what the player wants him to be and if they have a problem with it, they can change it in the editor to open up certain options in the future.

I still can't believe Batman is being brought up time and time again though. It's like many of us want to fit our idealized image of what we prefer our favorite characters to be and that's understandable but to go so far as to forget this is a game and not a pre-made storyboard or finished script where definitions (even ones made by Adam) do not trump game mechanics...I just don't get this strange blindness.

[mike b]

I hear ya.

I can see when game comes out people debating power stats and so forth.

That's why there is a EDITOR in game lol.

I use it alot in TEW

[praguepride]

/nod. That has always been the beauty of his games when it comes to modding. If you DL someone's mod and don't like the way they did things, nothing stops you from changing it.

[djthefunkchris]

The reason I think Batman is so debatable, is because of his actual ways of doing things....

For example: If he has a guy on the ground, with a big board/door/or anything heavy that is impeding the would be criminal, and that criminal starts to reach for a weapons/gun/knife/whatever. Any "normal" hero would simply kick the weapon away from the criminal out of his reach... Not Batman, he would rather stomp on the criminal, rendering the criminal unconscious, and ignore the weapon completely.

Another example: Does the hero community accept him? Sure do... But some think he is scarier then any of the villains they've ever been up again. Some teams would never deny him, but would also never seek him for recruitment. If Batman wants you on the team though, it's almost the highest form of flattery in comparison of any other single hero asking.

This also translates to even the citizens in his hometown... They on the average, know he is a "hero", but most wouldn't want to meet him in a dark alley, or have him as their escort. Quite a few citizens think it's his fault (even his closest friends have hinted to this) that there are "Super-Villains" around town.

One more example: Most people, no matter who they are, good or bad, don't really like Batman. The one's that do are kind of shady themselves... Wonder Woman, Catwoman, Joker. Yeap... For the most part The Joker likes Batman, and wouldn't have any fun if Batman didn't exist.

Batman is the only hero that scares Superman.



On the Subject of Superman: Vtial is pretty much right if what he's saying is what I think he is saying. Most people automatically give Superman this "Super-Boyscout" image, without knowing the character and the way it has evolved over the years. Superman has more blood on his hands then most villain's. The personality that is ussually described as Superman's, belongs to Captain Marvel/Billy Batson/Shazam!

Superman has had some of the lamest stories, especially in "team-ups", and in my opinion alot of the worst was with Marvel (not the character, but Marvel Comics match ups). I don't know why they change him so much during these massive team-ups...

Just as Batman used to carry a Gun once upon a time, and has been known to kick people's heads hard enough to break their neck (instantly killing them), it was nothing for Superman to snap necks all the time, in his first incarnations.

[James Casey]

For example: If he has a guy on the ground, with a big board/door/or anything heavy that is impeding the would be criminal, and that criminal starts to reach for a weapons/gun/knife/whatever. Any "normal" hero would simply kick the weapon away from the criminal out of his reach... Not Batman, he would rather stomp on the criminal, rendering the criminal unconscious, and ignore the weapon completely.

So Batman is a Combat Pragmatist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CombatPragmatist), then? (Yes, I can link to TVTropes too. Muhahaha...)

Batman does things like that because his greatest weapon, smarts aside, is the fear he instills in the criminals of Gotham. By being vicious, the fight is half-won or more just by his showing up. He may not kill, and the more daring villains count on that, but two-thirds of Batman's work is done by putting the fear of him into the superstitious, cowardly lot...

But I digress. Depends on writer/modder/Adam, and so on...

[djthefunkchris]

So Batman is a Combat Pragmatist (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CombatPragmatist), then? (Yes, I can link to TVTropes too. Muhahaha...)

Batman does things like that because his greatest weapon, smarts aside, is the fear he instills in the criminals of Gotham. By being vicious, the fight is half-won or more just by his showing up. He may not kill, and the more daring villains count on that, but two-thirds of Batman's work is done by putting the fear of him into the superstitious, cowardly lot...

But I digress. Depends on writer/modder/Adam, and so on...
/nod.... But I don't get where everyone thinks Batman doesn't kill. He don't like to, he probably would rather not, but I'm not letting him off the hook.

Perhaps people didn't take notice of the first time I posted a couple of kills by him, perhaps a longer list should get someone's attention?

Every one of these are kills by him:

The Case of the Chemical Syndicate, Detective Comics #27 (1939): he punches Stryker into a vat of acid.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc27.png



Justice, Detective Comics #28 (1939): he throws one of Frenchy Blake's henchmen off a roof.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC28.png



The Batman Meets Doctor Death, Detective Comics #29 (1939): he kills Jabah by lassoing a rope around his neck and breaking it.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC29.jpg



Return of Doctor Death, Detective Comics #30 (1939): he kills Mikhail by breaking his neck with a well-aimed kick.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC30.jpg



Batman Versus the Vampire (Part II), Detective Comics #32 (1939): he shoots Dala and the Monk dead while they are asleep.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC32.jpg



The Batman Wars Against the Dirigible of Doom, Detective Comics #33 (1939): he carries a gun and uses it to shoot some machinery aboard a dirigible, causing an explosion that kills a number of henchmen. He later switches clothes with another bad guy and places him in a death chamber to die in his place. At the end of the story he kills Dr. Krueger by knocking him out with gas pellets and causing his plane to crash.



Peril in Paris Detective Comics #34 (1939):he knocks out the Duc D'Orterre and leaves him to drive over a cliff.



The Case of the Ruby Idol, Detective Comics #35 (1940): he kicks an opponent onto another villain's sword, impaling him. Later he knocks Lenox out of a window to his death.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC35.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC35b.jpg



The Screaming House, Detective Comics #37 (1940): he knocks Count Grutt against a sword that impales him through the head.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC37.jpg



The Giants of Hugo Strange, Batman #1 (1940): he open fires on a group of gangsters using the Batplane's machine gun. One of the bad guys escapes, so Batman drops a cable from the Batplane and hangs him. At the end of the story he uses gas pellets to knock the last bad guy off a rooftop.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B1a.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B1b.jpg



The Horde of the Green Dragon, Detective Comics #39 (1940): he kills a Chinese assassin. Later in the story he wipes out the Green Dragon Tong by crushing them beneath a giant statue.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC39.jpg


Wolf, the Crime Master, Batman #2 (1940): he breaks the neck of Adam Lamb (aka The Wolf) by punching him down a flight of stairs.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B2.jpg



The Crime School for Boys, Batman #3 (1940): he throws a criminal off a roof.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B3.jpg



The Strange Case of Professor Radium, Batman #8 (1940): he drowns Professor Radium.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b8.jpg



Professor Strange's Fear Dust, Detective Comics #46 (1940): he knocks Hugo Strange off a cliff.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc46.jpg



Money Can't Buy Happiness, Detective Comics #47 (1941): he kills a gangster by knocking him out while he's driving and causing his car to crash headlong into a tree.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc47.jpg



The Brain Burglar, Detective Comics #55 (1941): he punches a foreign agent into a vat of molten steel. Later in the story he throws two more bad guys off a dirigible.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/DC55.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc55b.jpg



The Two Futures, Batman #15 (1943): he kills some Japanese soldiers by throwing a bayonet into the tire of their car and causing it to crash. Later he crashes a plane into an Axis warship, killing everyone aboard.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B15.jpg



The Angel, the Rock and the Cowl, The Brave and the Bold #84 (1969): he destroys a German plane using a hand grenade. At the end of the story he uses dynamite to blow up a convoy of German soldiers as they are crossing a bridge.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/bmi.jpg


A Bat-Death for Batman! Batman #221 (1970): he throws the villain Otto into a pit with frenzied animal that kills him.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b221.jpg


You Only Die Twice! The Brave and the Bold #90 (1970): he knocks out a criminal and throws his unconscious body into the sea where he presumably drowns.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/tbatb90.jpg

Swamp Sinister, Batman #235 (1971): he punches Striss into a puddle of chemicals that infect him with a lethal disease.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/batman235.jpg

Vengeance for a Dead Man, Batman #240 (1972): he euthanizes Mason Sterling by deactivating the life support machine connected to his brain (Sterling tricked him into doing this).
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b240-1.jpg



The Menace of the Fiery Heads! Batman #270 (1975): he punches Watkins into a statue, which then topples onto him and breaks his neck.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b270-1.jpg

The Corpse Came C.O.D. Batman #271 (1976): he uses a sonically-charged amulet like a grenade to kill the Vedic cult leader and set fire to his temple while the cult members are still inside.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B271.jpg



Heart of a Vampire, Detective Comics #455 (1976): he shoots Gustav Decobra through the heart with a bow and arrow.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc455.jpg



Dead Man's Quadrangle, The Brave and the Bold #127 (1976): he ignores a criminal's mayday call, deducing it to be fake. It then transpires that the call was genuine, and the criminal has drowned as a result of Batman's inaction.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/tbatb127.jpg



Batman-Ex - - As in Extinct! Batman #288 (1977): he uses a bad guy as a human shield by hurling him into the trajectory of the Penguin's gunfire, killing the man in the process.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/BATMAN288.jpg

Skull Dugger's Killjoy Capers! Batman #290 (1977): he electrocutes Dugger by throwing him into a nest of electrified cables.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B290.jpg



Time...My Dark Destiny! The Brave and the Bold #157 (1979): he causes a helicopter to crash and the pilot is killed in the explosion.



Where Walks a Snowman, Batman #337 (1981): he uses the flash of a marker flare to knock Klaus Kristin (aka. the Snowman) off a cliff.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b337.jpg



The Crystal Armageddon! The Brave and the Bold #159 (1980): he kills a member of the League of Assassins by throwing him against a wall made from a lethal formula, which then causes the assassin to turn to crystal and die. Batman knew this would happen and had actually warned someone against touching the wall earlier in the same scene.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/tbatb159.jpg

The Monster in the Mirror, Detective Comics #517 (1982): he kills Marley and drinks his blood.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc517.jpg



Those Who Live By The Sword, The Brave and the Bold #193 (1982): he stomach throws Bloodclaw off the Woodrow Wilson Bridge.



The Messiah of the Crimson Sun, Batman Annual #8 (1982): he kills Ra's Al Ghul by drawing his spaceship into lethal sun rays.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/BA1982.jpg



Night of Blood! The Brave and the Bold #195 (1983): he stabs the vampire Gunnarson through the chest with a wooden table leg.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/BB195.jpg



Batman: Year Two, Detective Comics #575-578 (1987): he takes Chill to Crime Alley, whereupon the Batman unmasks himself and reveals his true identity. He disarms Chill and turns the gunman's own weapon against him. Batman places the gun to Chill's forehead and is about to shoot him when suddenly the Reaper kills him first. Disappointed, Batman chases down and confronts the Reaper for the last time. At the end of the confrontation, the Reaper plummets to his death, taking the secret of Batman's true identity with him. But before he falls, he tells the Dark Knight "I didn't think you were a killer, I see now I was wrong", implying that Batman would have killed Joe Chill had he not got to him first.



Son of the Demon, (1987): he causes a helicopter crash that kills everyone aboard. At the end of the story he kills Qayin by kicking him into some electric cables.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/NewPicture3-4.jpg



Skeeter, Action Comics Annual #1 (1987): he stabs Skeeter through the back with a wooden stake.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/aa1.jpg


The Cult, (1988): he guns down an innocent man during a hallucinogenic trance. Later he uses the Batmobile's armaments to demolish a building in orders to kill the rocket sniper on the rooftop. At the end of the story he cripples Deacon Blackfire and incites his follower's to turn on their leader. Robin tries to help Blackfire, but Batman stops him, then stands back and watches with a smile on his face as Blackfire is torn apart.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/BatmanTheCult1.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/BatmanTheCult2.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/BatmanTheCult3.jpg



Ten Nights of the Beast, Batman #420 (1988): he traps KGBeast in an underground chamber and leaves him to starve/suffocate.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b420.jpg



Consequences, Batman #425 (1988): he topples a pile of cars onto a villain, crushing him to death
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/B425.jpg



Cosmic Odyssey, (1988): he uses an Apokoliptian gun to blast a hole through the chest of one of Darkseid's soldiers.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/co.jpg



Shaman, Legends of the Dark Knight #1 (1989): Bruce Wayne accidentally knocks the assassin Tom Woodley off a mountain cliff.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/lotdk1.jpg



Trash, Detective Comics #613 (1990): he kicks two bad guys into the back of a garbage truck and they are killed in the grinders.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc613.jpg



Succession, Detective Comics Annual #4 (1991): in vision of the future foreseen by Waverider, Batman kills Ra's al Ghul and later blows up himself and the entire League of Assassins, including Talia al Ghul.



In the Dark Places, Batman #576 (2000): he kills a helicopter pilot by throwing a knife into the tail rotor of his helicopter and causing it to crash.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b673.jpg



All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder #1 (2005): he kills a group of corrupt policeman by ramming into their car with the Batmobile.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/bartbwa.jpg



All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder #2 (2005): he runs down several police motorcyclists and then incinerates a load of pursuing police vehicles using the rocket thrusters on the Batmobile.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/bartbw.png
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/bartbwb.jpg



The Big Show, Detective Comics #814 (2006): he fights the army of madmen know as "the Body", knocking several of them off rooftops and luring the rest to a building site where he has planted explosive charges. He then escapes via the Batwing, detonating the bombs as he goes and wiping out the madmen.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc814a.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/dc814.jpg



The Beautiful People, Detective Comics #821 (2006): he knocks Johnny Lange in front of an oncoming train.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/tbp.jpg



All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder #7 (2007): he uses thermite and bleach to set fire to a gang, and continues to beat them up while they burn.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/bartbw2.jpg
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/bartbw3.jpg



Joe Chill in Hell, Batman #673 (2008): he hounds Joe Chill and drives him to the brink of suicide, then hands him a loaded gun and watches as he kills himself.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/b673-1.jpg



Superman and Batman VS Vampires and Werewolves (2008-2009): he kills several vampires and werewolves in this series using stakes and a UV gun.



How to Murder the Earth, Final Crisis #6 (2009): he uses an Apokalips gun to poison Darkseid.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/Untitled-28.jpg



Bronze Night, Batman/Doc Savage #1 (2010): in this story Batman uses firearms in a cavalier manner and admits that he may be responsible for killing criminals.
http://i396.photobucket.com/albums/pp42/silver-nemsis/bds1.jpg
IF I have to, I can make it longer. Point being, even in the movie Batman Begins, which is the closest movie I seen of him as far as the comicbook character goes (and not the TV Show), he is responsible for Ra's death... "I don't have to save you"... I mean, it's in the MOVIE, that he isn't above letting people die (should have let him kill him in the movie as he has in the comics though, first hand). In other words, even the movie is pretty tame compared to the comic version...

Edit: Forgot to add... I believe Superman's kill list is longer then Batman's.:cool:

Edit: So everyone knows, I had pic's in the thread, instead of links, where all the links are. If it's still too much, will take the other pic's down later tonight. I just want everyone to understand this, so when they read posts after this, they realise to the extent this post was, and why it warrented a post by Adam.

[VTial]

Yeah I miss that but I think people are just going by the popular myth like how it goes with Superman.

It's not like Batman is a true combat pragmatist. The animated portrayals even go so far as to push this to absurd commonality.

Batman is a chessmaster and Gotham and his gadgets are his chess board. A wild card with a chess board doesn't fight. He stalls, plays politics and scouts his actions. A wild card with a chess board who engages in hand to hand becomes an anti-hero. Mostly because he needs to adopt a stance one side or the other. A chessmaster who engages in hand to hand will always come in contact with groups of one side asking him to join. Combined with Batman's popular demand in which he ends up appearing almost all the time, he becomes a hero.

The pragmatic part is only part of his martial arts mythology. Almost every comic book martial arts hero with no powers are considered pragmatic. Daredevil, Iron Fist, Robin, Black Widow, Punisher... almost every one of these guys too in order to get them past the censors were often marketed as being killers that don't quite kill or maybe have reformed and must kill out of necessity.

[Adam Ryland]

For the sanity of the board as a whole, can we please let that be the last time someone tries to make an argument via posting masses of huge images - it's going to get absolutely ridiculous if threads start ending up looking like the above.

Not to mention that it's pretty pointless given the vast number of inconsistencies \ contradictions \ evolutions \ versions that most characters have mean that you can probably "prove" two opposite points if you're willing to research hard enough.

[VTial]

Not to impose anything but should there be a specific sticky regarding images for this board?

Comic book scans are kind of the MO of any comic book forum threads.

[djthefunkchris]

Not to impose anything but should there be a specific sticky regarding images for this board?

Comic book scans are kind of the MO of any comic book forum threads.

Adam's right, I overdid it. I honestly didn't even realise how many I found.. I was just trying to find one per year, but it grew.

I wasn't trying to prove anything, but that Batman will kill... and that's part of the reason he is feared.

[VTial]

I don't know where I came off saying Adam's wrong, but all I was saying is that if anyone has ever browsed through enough comic book forums, you're bound to see people overdo it in comic book scans.

It doesn't really have to do with anyone trying to push forth their views, generally as most comic book discussions go, I just find posts like yours to be the norm. If it seems less, it is only because people have pretty much killed the "the vast number of inconsistencies \ contradictions \ evolutions \ versions that most characters have"

Literally even if you don't research enough, you time a comic book discussion topic in such a way that most of the active knowledgeable regulars are there - and they will pretty much slice through entire trivia's worth of comic book scans, eras, etc. to pretty much solidify the one real truth despite the fact that if we zoom out a bit, it can go either way. I don't know of anyone personally so maybe I'm over-exaggerating it but this is how it has come off to me.

Even here, if I bit on the Rorschach is not an anti-hero bit and this was a popular and very active comic book forum, you could have mammoths of pages with each person throwing up comic book scans like you did and most posters if they are really interested in the topic would encourage it and re-quote the image rather than complain about the abundance of comic book scans being inserted.

P.S. Oh and again, not to impose, but if you feel you really overdid it you might want to delete or edit the post. Anytime someone loads this thread, they are still going to be bombarded by all the loading.

[djthefunkchris]

I don't know where I came off saying Adam's wrong, but all I was saying is that if anyone has ever browsed through enough comic book forums, you're bound to see people overdo it in comic book scans.

It doesn't really have to do with anyone trying to push forth their views, generally as most comic book discussions go, I just find posts like yours to be the norm. If it seems less, it is only because people have pretty much killed the "the vast number of inconsistencies \ contradictions \ evolutions \ versions that most characters have"

Literally even if you don't research enough, you time a comic book discussion topic in such a way that most of the active knowledgeable regulars are there - and they will pretty much slice through entire trivia's worth of comic book scans, eras, etc. to pretty much solidify the one real truth despite the fact that if we zoom out a bit, it can go either way. I don't know of anyone personally so maybe I'm over-exaggerating it but this is how it has come off to me.

Even here, if I bit on the Rorschach is not an anti-hero bit and this was a popular and very active comic book forum, you could have mammoths of pages with each person throwing up comic book scans like you did and most posters if they are really interested in the topic would encourage it and re-quote the image rather than complain about the abundance of comic book scans being inserted.

P.S. Oh and again, not to impose, but if you feel you really overdid it you might want to delete or edit the post. Anytime someone loads this thread, they are still going to be bombarded by all the loading.

I understood what you were saying. I just don't think it's necessary because I goofed up and went way overboard.... Meaning, I don't want a new rule.. It's probably going to happen again, and the next person will probably feel the same as I do. Realise their mistake, and not do it anymore. It might happen once or twice a year, which really (IMO) doesn't need a rule made about it. I feel Adam's post will be enough.

Look at it my way... I start making a post and try to get as much information in as little time for it, and then I post it figuring it's a good post. I rarely re-read what I post (and you can tell by all the typo's I make).

I see a responce, and by this time there have been three (you twice, Adam once). I see you bassically thinking maybe we need a rule to eliminate someone doing what I did. I immediately look at my post, and as I'm going through it I'm thinking to myself "Oops, I overdid this". Something I probably wouldn't have noticed without the responce from Adam, as when I click on the thread it goes to the last post automatically.

I was going to eliminate all the pic's, and put in links instead, but I figured I would leave my post alone as an example of what NOT to do when people read over it.

My responce to your post was just that I am acknowledging that I was wrong, not that you thought I was right or you thought Adam was wrong. I sure didn't mean to make you feel that way anyways. Just general conversation is all.

I will probably edit the post after work later, with a edit post saying why so people understand this conversation.

[InfectedGT]

How did a thread about playing as villians turn into "he's not an anti hero" "yes he is" "No he isn't"

[VTial]

A more relevant question would be how a game thread has shifted into a Dog Pound thread.

Anyway, it's a bit obvious but for the convenience of others, the answer begins here:

Anti-hero =/= Villain.

Anti-Heroes are good guys who lean neutral. It's not that simple, but that's the idea.

From there, it became what anti-hero meant. You can't really stop it. People will reply and read into what they want. All you can do is just keep it on-topic or emphasize how your post might not be feeding the subject.

[mike b]

Im still gonna play as a anti hero :p:p
Then join the Justice League.
Then tug on Bat Mans cape:)

[praguepride]

How did a thread about playing as villians turn into "he's not an anti hero" "yes he is" "No he isn't"

Welcome to the internet!!! ;)

[InfectedGT]

Welcome to the internet!!! ;)

Oh my god this is a terrible place what am I doing here.