Reduce the effectiveness of magical attacks

[Jaded]

Given most characters have magic 0, I'm finding magical attacks - in particular Mystical Major-Weapon Stun Explosive (regular), which does 160 base damage, stuns, AND doesn't cost any energy to use, to be really crazily effective - to the point where I went into battle against someone with 1400 health when I had just 250 health left because I was recovering from another fight, and still won. Anyone else finding this, or just me? If it's a general thing, maybe there should be a way of reducing the effectiveness of magic attacks.

[djthefunkchris]

Given most characters have magic 0, I'm finding magical attacks - in particular Mystical Major-Weapon Stun Explosive (regular), which does 160 base damage, stuns, AND doesn't cost any energy to use, to be really crazily effective - to the point where I went into battle against someone with 1400 health when I had just 250 health left because I was recovering from another fight, and still won. Anyone else finding this, or just me? If it's a general thing, maybe there should be a way of reducing the effectiveness of magic attacks.

Lots of villains and heroes have no magical ability, and so are susceptible to magic attacks in much the same way....

I have no problem for your level 1 character with average abilities to somehow gain an advantage over someone like Superman Prime (loose example), as he is susceptible to magic, and in alot of cases (IF I HAD ENOUGH SLOTS) I would actually put Magic down as a weakness (for all Kryptonians), where you would even do better then normal.

TO ME, it makes it realistic, at least how I've been setting things up so far, I don't have a problem.

EDIT: I Haven't tested it out as a player though. You may be pointing out a flaw I haven't run into yet.

[linguistjake]

I think the problem is that Mystical attacks, regardless of type, all are countered with the Mystical attribute. This should not be. Mystical should be the attribute used to determine the attack roll, but the defense roll should still be one of the standard defensive stats. Hitting someone with a magical hammer is exactly the same as hitting them with a regular hammer, so dodging the attack should be the same. While a powerful Mystic can wield a hammer that is very powerful and do more damage regardless of their strength, they do not get the double bonus of having almost no enemies who can resist. And a case can be made that any being with a soul should have some mystical ability due to their inherent resistance to such attacks. The base for mystic shouldn't be zero, it should be 200-250 or something so that there is some hope of defending.

[smartman]

Just wait until you gain a few levels as being big mystically has significant drawbacks vs other attacks meaning while you can dish out lots of damage basically unchecked, your opponent basically can too because he/she is rolling against your 350 strength/agility/reaction stat too. Once you get to 4 rolls, you'll exceed that on almost every roll (when their seed value is 600+). Believe me, I was with you until I hit level 4.

Now that was with my character being created from the background not a custom character where you might do things a little differently.

[Jaded]

Just wait until you gain a few levels as being big mystically has significant drawbacks vs other attacks meaning while you can dish out lots of damage basically unchecked, your opponent basically can too because he/she is rolling against your 350 strength/agility/reaction stat too. Once you get to 4 rolls, you'll exceed that on almost every roll (when their seed value is 600+). Believe me, I was with you until I hit level 4.

Now that was with my character being created from the background not a custom character where you might do things a little differently.

Bear in mind that ANYONE can get themselves a mystical attack, though - I have one with Big Chill, who has some decent stats to roll against.

[smartman]

Now, you're shifting your argument. Now, should mystical attacks have a min. magical level requirement? Probably yes just to stop people from exploiting it. However, that wasn't what we were discussing before.

Frankly, now that I think about it, I think the attack seed values should be based somewhat on their skills. That would eliminate mystical attacks if you have less than 200 or so in that skill. The current system seems to be just based off of the power of the attack.

[Adam Ryland]

Hitting someone with a magical hammer is exactly the same as hitting them with a regular hammer, so dodging the attack should be the same.

If you're following the same logic as the default database, a "magical hammer attack" should be a physical power, not a magical \ mystical one, and so would do exactly what you're asking for - be dodged by agility or reactions, not mystical.

[linguistjake]

Still argue that only the attack rolls should use different stats. I shoot a gun at you, I use agility. I shoot a magic wand at you, I use Mystical. You dodge it the same way, though: With your legs.

I swing a hammer at you: Strength. I swing a mystical ghost-knife of infernal burning at you: Mysticism. But avoiding the attack is the same: Reactions.

EDIT: And I get what you are saying, but on the flipside it is broken. Really broken. How many characters in the database have Strength of 0, Agility of 0 or Reactions of 0? So why does Mystical get to be special?

[Adam Ryland]

I swing a hammer at you: Strength. I swing a mystical ghost-knife of infernal burning at you: Mysticism. But avoiding the attack is the same: Reactions.

I agree 100% (and so does the default database). But what about "I cast a spell on you"? Or a Professor X style "I psychically enter your mind even though I'm miles away"? Why would they be avoided by Reactions or Agility? That makes no sense. You'd defend the former with magic of your own, and the latter with willpower or some other form of psychic blocking. And if you have no willpower, psychic blocks or magic, why should you suddenly have the ability to defend yourself against them? You should be helpless, there's no reason for you not to be, any more than a tree should be able to dodge a melee or ranged attack.

EDIT: And I get what you are saying, but on the flipside it is broken. Really broken. How many characters in the database have Strength of 0, Agility of 0 or Reactions of 0? So why does Mystical get to be special?

It's special because it makes logical sense for it to be special - virtually every humanoid character in existence would have some degree of strength, agility and reactions as its a natural part of being alive. Having the ability to counteract magic is not. Using the same example as above, The Tree Of Woe has 0 Agility or Reactions - is the system "really broken" that it can't dodge attacks? Obviously not, but it's the exact same principle as you're putting forward, just on a different stat.

[linguistjake]

Fair enough. The problem is, though, that there are very few Trees of Woe with zero in their prime stats and a whole bunch of people with zero mystical. This makes mysticism too important for player-characters. Just as almost everyone has some level of mental resistance, almost everyone should maybe have some level of mystical resistance. If you have a soul, you probably should have some inherent mystical resistance. It is not very awesome to roll dice with zero being the highest that can be rolled, whether it is on the PC side or against enemies who are absolutely powerless to stop your Generic Ranged Mystical Stun #432.

[Adam Ryland]

I see your point, I just disagree on the central concept that a soul gives any sort of mystical defense - I'm just going on traditional mainstream Marvel and DC continuity though, so it may be different elsewhere, but in all the examples I can think of involving characters like Stephen Strange or Zatanna, mortals don't stand a chance once the spell is cast - even top guys like Batman, who was mind-wiped by magic, have no resistance.

[Oregano Jensen]

Okay, so the suggestion is "magic needs to be more balanced." So why does the solution have to be "people need to be able to block magic better"? There are a lot of ways to balance a skill, including:

-- Making magical attacks less powerful than comparable attacks. What if a physical impact is 250 damage, but then an otherwise comparable magical impact is 150 damage? Sure, it can't be blocked, but it's less damage.

-- Raising the cost of magical attacks. I mean, there are a lot of "wizard" characters whose powers are fire, ice, telekinesis, whatever. You're not talking about using magic to manipulate the elements or whatever -- you're talking about crafting an entire attack out of pure magic. That SHOULD require more hero points to be able to do.

-- Presenting barriers to allowing someone to choose magical attacks. I like this one less than the other two, because let's face it, everyone will just crank up their Magical ability and hey, problem solved. It's a one-time cost rather than the above, which is ongoing.

[linguistjake]

I see your point, I just disagree on the central concept that a soul gives any sort of mystical defense - I'm just going on traditional mainstream Marvel and DC continuity though, so it may be different elsewhere, but in all the examples I can think of involving characters like Stephen Strange or Zatanna, mortals don't stand a chance once the spell is cast - even top guys like Batman, who was mind-wiped by magic, have no resistance.

I'll buy that. And, for the record, I'm glad you chose to make a broken mechanic that is true to comic book traditions rather than altering the mechanic to better work for gameplay.

And Oregano has some good suggestions for balancing mystical without changing the flavor, as it were. And I'd add one more possible suggestion: Make an "In Tune With The Cosmos" attribute or something that costs a whole bunch of hero points but unlocks the Mystical block. It costs me, as a player, 20,000 hero points to make the lowest-level speedster possibly, but only about 200 hero points to get a zero-energy mystical stun that works almost all of the time. And that mystical stun is much more powerful than Speedster 1. Or don't. Honestly, gameplay balance is always going to be an issue given the absolutely huge and flexible system you have built.

[bigcat]

The simple solution is to make magical background or some such a purchasable attribute and have magic attacks of even regular strength drain significant energy and even a bit of health on use. Most 'magic' users in comics have issues in some area of their lives as they 'pay' for their special abilities and using magic often seems to wear them out. They can't seem to spam attack like the more physical heroes.

[praguepride]

Quick question: In order to buy a mystic attack, do you need to have points in magic?


How does this sound:

In order for the player IN-GAME to buy a mystic attack, they have to have an attribute "Magician" or "Magic-User"

In order to buy that attribute, you must have a minimum of 200 in Magic.

That would prevent characters like Rachel Noir who have no magical ability to quick grab a cheap magic stun attack and rip through the non-magical area. To turn a non-magical hero into a magical attacker you would have to invest serious amounts of HP to unlock magical attacks and I think the investment of 20k+ HP would justify taking a non-magical person and making them magical.


The OTHER way to balance would be to make magic an environmental factor, so different areas have different magic levels that alter the effectiveness of magic used within it. Obviously this would be for CBH2 as it dramatically alters the game but something to consider. A location could be rated magically "none, low, medium, high" and that applies bonuses/penalties to magic abilities used in that area. So if you had an area that wasn't supposed to have magic in it (and therefore had no other heroes/villains with magical abilities) you could set it at none (for realistic setting) or low for settings like Gotham where magic is rare and apply a global penalty to magic so it wouldn't rip through the rogue's gallery.

On the flipside, if you wanted to create a high magic setting like classic D&D or harry potter, you could set it to high and fireballs would be really effective against non-magical heroes/villains but the mod-maker could balance this by making the majority of inhabitants having at least some magical ability.

[Antithesis]

How does this sound:

In order for the player IN-GAME to buy a mystic attack, they have to have an attribute "Magician" or "Magic-User"

In order to buy that attribute, you must have a minimum of 200 in Magic.

That would prevent characters like Rachel Noir who have no magical ability to quick grab a cheap magic stun attack and rip through the non-magical area. To turn a non-magical hero into a magical attacker you would have to invest serious amounts of HP to unlock magical attacks and I think the investment of 20k+ HP would justify taking a non-magical person and making them magical.


I was thinking the same thing, though I'd have it cost even more HPs.

Also, if it is a default or user made character who already has Mystical above 200 (or whatever the limit is) they won't have to buy it to use it, kind of like how Iron Will/Super Agility etc work now.

[MJStark]

See, what about magical weapons?

You have it mentioned in an issue that Rachel Noir visits a gun-shop in Reisburg, buys an 'under the counter special' and in a supernatural place it's bound to be something magical, even if it's a small base-ball bat that you look at the target from a distance, swing, and its like Captain Awesome hit them in the head (Magical Major-Weapon Stun). The magical power comes from the bat, not the person carrying it.

Unless weapons that have magical attacks can only be uses by people with magical skill?

[Pinke]

This seems to be mostly a balancing issue/decision in Adam's database.

Adam wanted to portray magic a certain way which leaves it open for mini-max players to use and profit from it. Unfortunately, it would seem that the best way to deal with this situation would be to edit the database.

Any balancing rules added to magic would imbalance/punish user mods which make magic a common item.

[praguepride]

See, what about magical weapons?


From my understanding, an "enchanted" baseball bat will do Physical damage, or an elemental damage if it's a flaming baseball bat etc.

I think magical attacks are supposed to be equivalent of "pure" magic that's doing the damage. So a Magic Missile (using the classic D&D sense) would be a magical ranged small weapon.

A bow that shoots magic or a Sword made of pure magic that cuts straight into a person's soul would be examples of a "magical" attack.

An enchanted sword is just a slightly better sword.