PDA

View Full Version : Nemesis Upgrade


praguepride
12-06-2011, 08:38 AM
If a villain has been identified as your "nemesis" it should mean something.
The nemesis is almost as important as the hero. What is Batman without The Joker? What is Superman without Lex Luthor. Sure there are other villains to fight but nothing defines a hero like his nemesis, to constantly push him and try him, and either make or break the hero.



1) Nemesis Plots: This ties into a suggestion of being able to plug in storylines into the system

(Storylines would be pre-programmed (and hopefully editable) series of events that would sometimes crop up with a big battle and payoff at the end. i.e. Step 1: Foil a robbery, uncover plans for another robbery. Step 2: Foil second robbery, discover that villain X is building a super weapon. Step 3: Fight the mastermind).

Anyway, once storylines are in place, mark some as "nemesis specific" storylines that would allow the user to create a more personal experience. The Joker, for example, tries to test Batman's will in ways that other villains just don't care about. Other villains, Batman is just the obstacle in the way of their plans, while the Joker, Batman IS the plan.

2) Make Nemeses level up - It would be nice for a nemesis that I gained at Level 2 to continue to be a threat to me as I progress. In the simplest form, having an algorithm to upgrade their level, powers, and stats by a certain rate each time your hero levels up would be nice.

3) Make Nemeses exploit your weaknesses - I would like to draw up the Pokemon video games where your "rival" would always select the pokemon yours was weakest too. Not only was it infuriating, but it ramped up the difficulty for the first few battles because he inherently had the advantage.

So, if you create a big beefy brawler with powerful melee, when the Nemesis levels up it would focus on melee defense and ranged attacks. Or if you invest heavily in a fire power then when Nemesis levels up it picks up fire resistence. And heaven forbid you take a weakness because then you just KNOW that they'll soon be walking around with a power to exploit it.


In summary, I'd like to point towards the Nemesis system of Champions Online where upon reaching a certain point in the game (i.e. the halfway point) you are given the option of creating your own nemesis and their minions. Their system is set up in such a way that you cannot really "gimp" your nemesis to make him easier, and for CBH you could just be given the option of selecting from pre-set templates, so instead of picking every single stat/attribute/power) you would just select "Fire-type" or "Ice-type" or "Martial Artist" etc.

djthefunkchris
12-06-2011, 11:43 AM
Another great idea for gameplay. I still think the Alternates section could do some of this, if we had control (as modders) as to "what" triggers the change. Something that would go well with this idea that I thought of, was a trigger that went something like "Player makes Minor League" "Player makes "Well known" player makes "Major League" player makes "Iconic" triggers the "Alternate" of his namesis.

praguepride
12-06-2011, 03:35 PM
/nod. If the game cannot upgrade itself in a meaningful way then giving the user the ability to do it for it is definitely an option.

If it can't upgrade organically then I think internally a "template" system might work. You build out a template to all 10 levels. Then when you create your nemesis (or a villain becomes one) it can follow the template for upgrade patterns.

Until you come up with a sizable # of templates then it might not seem that great, but if nemesis templates are editable then I'm sure someone will sit down and create a booster pack of templates.

TEW had a very limited number of storylines to run, but you can easily find a pack that adds dozens if not hundreds of storylines, many of which are quite complicated.

So the villains (and eventually heroes) would all have a "template" pre-selected for them so if they become nemeses then it's all set up for them to upgrade.

Bonus points if "random X" was allowed, so you could leave a spot or two for a random defensive attribute or random offensive power.

Even more bonus points if at different levels you can specify "random power upgrade" which would boost said random power a level (if possible) or just leave blank in the case of no scalability or already at the max level.

This would add some dangerous variety to a nemesis, as they might get something useful (warrior) or not useful (fire defense against an ice hero) or completely dangerous (multiply self!)

Pinke
12-12-2011, 08:16 PM
Just a minor addition to this too ...

Nemesis characters should probably happen much quicker than they do. IE it shouldn't be someone you've fought twenty times. It should be someone that just did something really horrible to you, and is likely more powerful than you to begin with.

Comic book big bads tend to jump in and do something horrible quite quickly. IE Doctor Doom and Reid Richards have a history together. Joker (depending on version) attacked Batman before he was Batman. Venom and Spider-man hatred grew from an incident at a newspaper. Etc ...

So it should probably be backwards from where it is now.

djthefunkchris
12-17-2011, 04:26 PM
Just a minor addition to this too ...

Nemesis characters should probably happen much quicker than they do. IE it shouldn't be someone you've fought twenty times. It should be someone that just did something really horrible to you, and is likely more powerful than you to begin with.

Comic book big bads tend to jump in and do something horrible quite quickly. IE Doctor Doom and Reid Richards have a history together. Joker (depending on version) attacked Batman before he was Batman. Venom and Spider-man hatred grew from an incident at a newspaper. Etc ...

So it should probably be backwards from where it is now.

I don't know... At least with what you have as examples... Joker didn't become his arch namesis overnight, it was through many years to be honest... and the hatred from Venom was one sided... Spiderman didn't realise it, or he would have done something about it way before then.. pluss the symbiot part of Venom had a little something to do with it.

crayon
12-17-2011, 08:42 PM
I don't know... At least with what you have as examples... Joker didn't become his arch namesis overnight, it was through many years to be honest... and the hatred from Venom was one sided... Spiderman didn't realise it, or he would have done something about it way before then.. pluss the symbiot part of Venom had a little something to do with it.

As a nice little nod to the comic book foundations it would be fun if a nemesis could spring from a relationship you had with a civilian who eventually gained powers.

Pinke
12-19-2011, 03:24 AM
I agree with your examples to some degree ... but from a game mechanics perspective, Batman didn't beat the living crap out of Joker's face five or six times, then move onto bigger villains peering over his shoulder going ... That joker bloke ... I guess he was my nemesis ...

I suppose if nemesis characters level up with you and are (correctly) seen as a bad thing to have, then I'd change my stance on it. In the current game mechanics though, I would prefer my nemesis to be something to be a genuine problem ... not just someone thats started hating me because I use their face for leveling up purposes.

djthefunkchris
12-19-2011, 11:46 AM
I agree with your examples to some degree ... but from a game mechanics perspective, Batman didn't beat the living crap out of Joker's face five or six times, then move onto bigger villains peering over his shoulder going ... That joker bloke ... I guess he was my nemesis ...

I suppose if nemesis characters level up with you and are (correctly) seen as a bad thing to have, then I'd change my stance on it. In the current game mechanics though, I would prefer my nemesis to be something to be a genuine problem ... not just someone thats started hating me because I use their face for leveling up purposes.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I like the idea of levelling up the namesis with you....

I can't help but to point out that Batman didn't really get "Super" powers or anything, on his way up the popularity ladder (comic-book wise). His gadgets are awesome of course, but that's not able to be duplicated in the game (yet?). Joker and Batman as far as levels, are pretty much the same as they have been for decades.

I do "Feel" that characters should level up or down accordingly though... kind of like workers do in TEW, getting better at certain skills or attributes.

I'm torn though... For example, I can't make up my mind if I like Hero Points, or hate the system... I can't think of a better way, so I can't really complain about it.