Blocking/Countering physical attacks

[Magister369]

I am not sure if this has been brought up. I have a PC who is mostly a fighter. When i am in combat, i have notice i dodge/avoid attacks but there is no counter such as the following: character A attacks with punch Character B blocks the punch, character B counters with kick" this would prob make the combat more involved. Just a thought for the future. and if this has been covered sorry :)

[crayon]

I would definitely like to see countering brought into the next version. Either as a specific ability or a general skill that is based off of existing/new stats. Doesn't just have to be for melee fighters either.

[praguepride]

Hmmm... being able to cause damage on an opponents turn seems a bit OTT in terms of game balance.

Just missing at the wrong time tends to get me frustrated but implementing a critical botch/fail kind of system might make lop-sided battles completely unwinnable/unloseable.


Given a situation where, say, if your defense roll is more then X times the attacker roll, you do a counter-attack.

If a low level hero/villain faces a higher level hero/villain, they're already at a severe disadvantage with stats and # of dice. If you add in more and more penalties, you're basically reducing the chance of an upset more and more.

Having it as a specific power seems OP'd to me, because anything that damages the opponent on his turn is incredibly efficient. So you'd either have to jack up the cost so only high level heroes could buy it or reduce it's effectiveness to the point of it being worthless to get.

Either way, it results in NPE (negative play experience). It either makes things too hard or too easy or too ineffective to make a difference.

In my mind, whenever I "avoid" an attack and then follow up with one of my own, I can easily imagine that as the counter-attack. Just because the game says you avoided the attack doesn't mean the character has to be duck/dodge/dip/dive/dodge -ing around. He could Superman it and just shrug off the damage, so to speak. He could do the infamous "catch the punch" or block or deflect or repel or whatever the fuffy details needs to be.


I also would caution against altering the wording because that might create awkward scenario where the nimble speedster "supermans" a punch from a much stronger character in an unrealistic way.

Finally, I would really be opposed to any attempt to split up the stats to have a "block vs. dodge" attribution because the end result is the same: you avoided damage and I dislike systems that both over-complicate and diffuse things unrealistically by trying to break out stats into unrealistic categories. My straw-man example is having a seperate stat for blunt weapons and axes, very typical in many fantasy RPG's because the actual mechanisms of a weighted weapon are the same, just the damage delivery system is different (edged vs. blunt...both rely on the weight of the weapon and strength of the wielder to do it's damage).

[djthefunkchris]

Well, I'm all for including things like Enraged (whenever someone swings at an enraged character, the character blocks and hits, then get's their turn as well), Rampage (character hits everyone around), Parry (extra defensive bonus), extra attacks, critical hits, etc. Lots of things that can be added.

For example, I would love to make the Hulk go on a full rampage attack, where no one around him is safe. Having the villain go after whomever cause's it the most damage, purposely going after someone that heals, after the healer heals someone, etc. Smarter the better. Some of which might already be in there, I just haven't played around with the combat enough to realise it yet.

Alot of effort can go into the dynamics of the fighting, but most important on my list is that it's fun. Putting too much in, just bassically complicates things though, so it has to be tested and make sure that it's fun, not a 'grind' so to speak, which the game in it's first edition doesn't feel like.

[crayon]

I can see where you're coming from and why you'd be concerned with the potential for a negative play experience pp, although I'm not sure how you'd figure counter attacks into being over-powered when they've been a reasonable staple of strategy RPGs and board games for quite some time.

Perhaps it's a matter of interpretation on both our parts, as it wasn't covered in the original proposal, but when I think of counter attacks in non-twitch games, in my mind they're always an expected but rare occurance (once or twice a battle, perhaps more if it's drawn out). Enough to be exciting and illicit a "damn!" or "lucky!" exclamation from the player, but not so much that they become a thorn or a crutch for the whole of the combat.

The same would be said of things like critical hits, which djthefunkchris mentioned. In some sense it's almost like additional color, but also with the possibility to inject a bit of expected uncertainty into a very close fight.

[djthefunkchris]

The same would be said of things like critical hits, which djthefunkchris mentioned. In some sense it's almost like additional color, but also with the possibility to inject a bit of expected uncertainty into a very close fight.

Some things, like Critical hits, etc... Should be ONLY people with some form of "Specialty", such as Sharpshooter level X, Weapons Master, Master of Physical Attacks, etc. To include Magic, Heat, whatever... as long as they have some form of Special gift for using it. Someone with general skills, like a common criminal that's just strong, or has the ability to create fire or cold, but not really all that great with either. Bazzaro possibly would have great powers/stronger then Supermans, but isn't nearly as proficient with/nor thinks of using them at the right times that they would be efficient. An example would be, Someone that would use a cold blast against someone that actually converts or absorbs cold, wouldn't exactly deserve to be able to get Critical hits, or whatever the ability is called down the line (if added). Someone like Hawkeye or Green Arrow though, should just about be able to crit at will...

The Flash (or similar character) should be able to dodge just about anything, if they go full out defensive.

Things like double attack, triple attack, and flurry of attacks could be put in as well. A Kryptonian can go all out at hyper-speed, using a flurry of attacks, and the only way to throw that in there is by making one attack alot more powerful then the rest. You could do that with Critical attacks as well, which isn't bad... but my problem is with a flurry of attacks (Flash doing the 100 punch thing), is that it can miss and that's it.... The ability to actually flurry, could miss, miss, hit, hit, etc... and he might only land 30 blows our ot 100, or 1000, or whatever it is... The way it goes right now, it seems... Is that ok, the speedster gets an attack, the person might not see it coming so they get hit, then it's the opponants turn. Comic-book wise, that speedstar's attack has just begun, and unless the other person is a speedstar or can see it coming, they shouldn't have a turn yet, as it all happens in 1/10000th of a second...

You can put things like this in the game already, as I said... because you can just up the power level to show what's going on. I like the power to do this, but I would also like the power to make the power actually work like it does in the comics.

I think Balance has alot to do with things, and as I said before... To me, it would be more fun to make it possible to "Overdue" things, and make players have to hold back less their moral is crushed for accidentally killing someone that they didn't have to (anyone that the moral is less then "No Problem"). People like Punisher probably wouldn't be too effected, but I think the crime being done should enhance it... Like a Robbery doesn't = Punishment by death, necessarily. SO even if in the comics Punisher would just kill the would be thief, in the game, being a Hero (no matter what kind of hero), they should still have a morality burden if they kill without the crime being worthy of killing... Kill for a kill, if the person has or was, or is an Assassin, then Punisher would be fine killing them.

Just my thoughts.

Edit: The last part could be evened out by the Villains likelyhood to kill... Whenever possible would be a definate reason for an Anti-Hero to kill them. No Problem, but not actually trying to murder someone at the time could be a small morality issue for someone like The Punisher, but someone that doesn't necessarily kill "Only when Necessary" or "Last Option" or whatever... this could be a bad morality hit for someone like The Punisher actually killing them.

[praguepride]

Actually this brings up a good avenue for advancement.

Right now most powers just add/subtract numbers to your character and although some of them are really powerful, they don't necessarily "feel" like they're doing anything because they're mostly passive and automatic. Power like Ninja is one I really enjoy because it unlocks a new combat stance.

So on that note, having attributes unlock new combat options would be interesting. Right now we have "Speedster" just giving a flat bonus on attack but what if it instead gave multiple attacks (with say a 15% decrease in seed) so then you had the option of doing a double/triple attack.

Having a "Martial Artist" might unlock a new stance that provides a flat, say 10% defensive bonus but also gives the possability of counter attacking melee attacks.

Berzerker, isntead of just gaining % to combat seeds might gain X # of attacks but loose a proportionate amount of defense, so if you go into bezerker mode you might gain 1-3 attacks, but lose 10-30% from your defenses and have an X% of not doing anything, instead just smashing a random car to dust or what not.

An issue I see is that too many powers end up being similar or the same. Warrior vs. Weapon Master vs. Master of Physical Attacks vs. Enhanced Melee... while they're all slightly different, they all end up being almost identical with just some very minor differences. Having attributes alter the landscape of combat really makes a difference in the "cool" factor as well as increasing replayability. As most people will tell you, fighting Cape Killer is very different from fighting most other opponents due to his attribute altering the foundation of combat.

So having new stances (and attributes associated to those stances) is a quick way to make combat more interesting. Allowing attackers multiple attacks, defenders the ability to counter makes things more interesting and introduces a bit more strategy into the game. Fighting a villain with a strong counter attack? Perhaps you alter your combat strategy to rely on a weaker ranged attack instead of your more powerful melee to avoid his brutal counter.

Facing a berzerker? Maybe it's better to concentrate all your firepower on him at once and bring him down face before he Hulks out and smashes your face in. Or maybe you papercut him to death, doing low damage stun locks in order to avoid big damage and an outburst of raw fury.

OR if they have a "can't tell friend from foe" style berzerker rage maybe you prod them in early in hopes that they'll take care of their friends as well.

True speedsters should be annoying flies, low damage but high volume of attacks. Do you take them out early to just get them out of the way (and risk wasting a lot of time even trying to hit them) or do you save them for last and just take their multiple punches per turn?