Teamwork: Real Life Mod - ideas, opinions & suggestions

[adam.TEW]

Hi there! There was a conversation about the issue of people making real life based mods on their own without finishing them on page 2 of the mod thread (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=59586&page=2). Maybe this coud be fixed due to a cooperation of some interested mod makers for TEW 10? This game will obviously be even more extensive than its predecessor, so how about working together on ONE "complete" data, instead of everyone for himself? Every opinion or idea how to approach this project is welcome. This is just a first try to get some feedback, we still have a lot of time to talk about it.

Excuse my english skills. ;)

[D16NJD16]

Sounds great in theory but too many cooks can spoil the soup if everyones not on the same page.

[MitchHedberg]

Sounds great in theory but too many cooks can spoil the soup if everyones not on the same page.

That's always been my issue when I see threads about a community effort on a mod...most of which never really see the light of day.

[adam.TEW]

Well, I agree, that's one of the less disadvantages, but is this the reason for not even trying it?

This thread is about finding a good concept and doing Events, Match Types, Teams, Stables, Titles + History, Worker Relations, TV Shows + all the stuff wouldn't be the problem in regard to working in a group. It's just about the worker values -_____- One of the opportunities would be an average value. If 3 people decide the basics value of worker XY you just take the average without any argument, it could be that simple but the only problem is ... It takes YEARS, even if you just do it with the main promotions <___<

[Teh_Showtime]

as far as skills go, i think a 100% should be for the rock's mic skills

but for everyone else, you compare their ability to someone's that is almost perfect or widely considered GOAT

[BurningHamster]

Seriously man, not trying to discourage you but sometimes the easiest way to make a mod is to just start doing it yourself and if you can get a chunk of the data done and show people how far along you are, they are more likely to get involved. These team effort mods start off with everyone enthusiastic but the team falls apart as they actually start realizing its' a lot of work, effort, time, tedium and compromise to make a mod that way.

Also in terms of getting stats right, a lot of the time you kind of have to sacrifice what YOU believe the correct stats for a worker are in order to make sure the game world treats them properly. Maybe you think a certain worker sucks but then you turn on the TV and he's getting over like crazy, you kind of have to be able to admit when you are wrong or admit your own biases in order to not make a horribly unbalanced game.

Also if you do make a mod there is one thing I cannot emphasize enough. TEST IT! Let the game run through a few years and see what happens a couple of times. If TV shows are getting dropped, promotions changing size unrealistically, a dozen workers dying in the first month then those are all signs you need to go back, rework the data and then test it again. Repeat until nothing too ridiculous happens a few times.

[Hyde Hill]

I was thinking of doing an 08 mod till 10 was announced and the basis was to use the data that the cornellverse provides in terms of letter grades for all the workers as the distribution for the real world mod. Say for instance there are 5 workers with an A in selling the mod would also feature five in total. Same with overness etc. And combining my own opinions with the average of the mods that are out there. This should give a balanced and playable mod as the c-verse is the best working out there.

[Remianen]

I was thinking of doing an 08 mod till 10 was announced and the basis was to use the data that the cornellverse provides in terms of letter grades for all the workers as the distribution for the real world mod. Say for instance there are 5 workers with an A in selling the mod would also feature five in total. Same with overness etc. And combining my own opinions with the average of the mods that are out there. This should give a balanced and playable mod as the c-verse is the best working out there.

Hyde, this is a great idea....in theory. It falls apart when you consider that the average real world mod can have 3 times the number of workers as the C-Verse does. So do you just multiply that 5 workers by 3? What effect would that have? Would that be accurate (just taking 10 workers at random to give them A in selling)?

I can offer an injury file, once I edit down a little (or a lot :p).

[Teh_Showtime]

i thought it meant the people who are considered the top 5 would get an A but only them

[Hyde Hill]

Either less workers and thus less promotions or the multiplier as you mentioned but most likely less workers mainly on the nostalgia front. I would love your help but I would probably do it once 2010 comes out and make it for that database. I will keep you posted. And it wouldn't be at random as it would be my own opinion and those of the other mod makers out there by comparing. For instance in a lot of real world mods out there Undertaker scores real high in psychology and so does Shawn Michaels so they would get that (as they deserve). Same with other skills/overness and lower down the line.

[Hyde Hill]

i thought it meant the people who are considered the top 5 would get an A but only them

Yep, thats the idea. Or with a three times as large a database 15.

[MrCanada]

I've already been working on data of my own for TEW 2008, with my new goal now more on making sure its ready for a TEW 2010 conversion. And I likely will keep it going because, well TEW is the only video game I play. I also have a "take it" attitude where anyone can take my data and modify it and release it on their own. The reason most data "Dies" is because so many mod makers are so anal about people modifying their data.

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57192

[crayon]

hamster makes a fair point about starting before you get anyone on board. Not only does it show that you, the driving force behind it (if that is what it would be), are committed to getting it finished, it also gives everyone example data for them to base their material off.

You also need to consider that a lot of people who say they're going to make a mod end up throwing in the towel long before its anywhere near complete, after they realize just how much work it will take. These people will exist regardless of whether it's a solo mod or a team mod. So in that sense you need to be prepared for people not delivering the goods and, when that happens, how to keep the momentum going. (Unless of course you're cherry picking seasoned modders for some kind of supergroup mod team, but I dunno how likely this would be).

Honestly, if I was to do a team mod (and I have considered it a few times) I would try my best to run it like a serious team project with milestones, expectations, and some thought out procedures in place. Sure, it may put off the casual people or those who disagree with your "vision", but at least you'd know that right off the bat and not a month or two down the line.

[BHK1978]

I think a real world mod would be much easier to do then a fictional mod as a team. At least in a real world mod you would not have everybody back out and take their characters with them which happened on the Kobe Board mod.

The thing about team mod making is everybody is gun-ho going into it. However, after a couple of months it kind of dies. I am not sure if people lose interest, or they wish that the other mod makers on that mod would move faster. And let us face facts, mod makers are doing this for fun, nobody is getting any money out of it so it is a labor of love.

Honestly, if I was to do a team mod (and I have considered it a few times) I would try my best to run it like a serious team project with milestones, expectations, and some thought out procedures in place. Sure, it may put off the casual people or those who disagree with your "vision", but at least you'd know that right off the bat and not a month or two down the line.

I agree 100% with this, I think if one were to make a group mod, there would have to be a sort of defacto leader. Someone who pushes the mod through.

[Phil Parent]

Some files for real-world mods should only need to be done once really, and then be edited for use depending of the situation.

Somebody should make ONE set of modern venues for exemple. And one set of 80's venues.

And then somebody takes this exhaustive sets, and trims a bunch off, to make a minimalist one.

A lot of things can be like this.

Belt history for exemple. Belt history files, even in their current form where they are linked to the Promotions files and the Workers file, can be a part of a good universal base.

Say, current belt histories. The idea is that most of everybody will have the following 7 promotions in their real world data.

WWE
TNA
ROH
Chikara
NJPW
AJPW
NOAH

So why not make their title histories, including the appropriate entry in Promotions? Then you just don't link them to the wrestlers, and just link them eventually when the wrestlers are done.

Other files work too, on the same principle.

It's all about accepting open source as our saviour.

It's all about saying "I'll concentrate on doing the wrestlers of Company Z, and do my best Company Z that I can. My partners will do Companies X & Y, and even though Z is my favourite promotion, I'll be fair."

Then you can have somebody who only takes care of checking everybody's data and levelling the data that is out of line to smooth out the edges.

I would be a part of this team, by the way. Anytime.

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

Some files for real-world mods should only need to be done once really, and then be edited for use depending of the situation.

Somebody should make ONE set of modern venues for exemple. And one set of 80's venues.

And then somebody takes this exhaustive sets, and trims a bunch off, to make a minimalist one.

A lot of things can be like this.

Belt history for exemple. Belt history files, even in their current form where they are linked to the Promotions files and the Workers file, can be a part of a good universal base.

Say, current belt histories. The idea is that most of everybody will have the following 7 promotions in their real world data.

WWE
TNA
ROH
Chikara
NJPW
AJPW
NOAH

So why not make their title histories, including the appropriate entry in Promotions? Then you just don't link them to the wrestlers, and just link them eventually when the wrestlers are done.

Other files work too, on the same principle.

It's all about accepting open source as our saviour.

It's all about saying "I'll concentrate on doing the wrestlers of Company Z, and do my best Company Z that I can. My partners will do Companies X & Y, and even though Z is my favourite promotion, I'll be fair."

Then you can have somebody who only takes care of checking everybody's data and levelling the data that is out of line to smooth out the edges.

I would be a part of this team, by the way. Anytime.

I agree with this. I've never modded before but would be very interested in doing something like this. Even if the mod team falls apart the work lives on due to the open source nature of the project.

It seems to me a lot of time is wasted re-doing work that's been completed before not to mention that the re-doing of work is probably the main reason why most modders run out of steam and throw in the towel. There's no need to redo the likes of venues or any of the other menial stats that most people have no interest in doing, I don't think any modder has ever gotten giddy over creating a venue stat set.

Maybe what needs to be done is to form a respected group of modders to over look the creation of what could be called "mod assets". All the things that are needed but that don't necessarily need to be unique to any particular real life mod. This could(note: should) include pic sets for multiple era's and possibly open source graphic sets as well.

I'm fairly new to the TEW scene so this might have been attempted before but it seems to me that a "community chest" of TEW 2010 assets looked over by respected members of the modding community(and there's quiet a few of them) would be very helpful for the scene overall and promote creativity rather than 2 or 3 historic mods(good mods anyway) and a dozen modern day mods.

Just my two cents for what it's worth(very little ;) )

[Kamchatka]

I agree with this. I've never modded before but would be very interested in doing something like this. Even if the mod team falls apart the work lives on due to the open source nature of the project.

It seems to me a lot of time is wasted re-doing work that's been completed before not to mention that the re-doing of work is probably the main reason why most modders run out of steam and throw in the towel. There's no need to redo the likes of venues or any of the other menial stats that most people have no interest in doing, I don't think any modder has ever gotten giddy over creating a venue stat set.

Maybe what needs to be done is to form a respected group of modders to over look the creation of what could be called "mod assets". All the things that are needed but that don't necessarily need to be unique to any particular real life mod. This could(note: should) include pic sets for multiple era's and possibly open source graphic sets as well.

I'm fairly new to the TEW scene so this might have been attempted before but it seems to me that a "community chest" of TEW 2010 assets looked over by respected members of the modding community(and there's quiet a few of them) would be very helpful for the scene overall and promote creativity rather than 2 or 3 historic mods(good mods anyway) and a dozen modern day mods.

Just my two cents for what it's worth(very little ;) )

Open Source Modding Community = Good. The more tools/assets that are available for all mods the easier every modder's life will be.

Proper sets of Injuries, Angles, Locations, TV networks, PPV providers, Match Types, Gimmicks and Dojos. Each compartmentalised and effectively ready for plug and play.

Wrestlers Pic Packs done either as PNG with invisible background or as one single PSD file with each wrestler as a different layer (Id suggest these being seperated by region US/Japan/UK etc). Promotion Logos (invisible background again), Promotion TV Logos.

A few tutorials or a FAQ might be good too.

[BurningHamster]

To a degree a lot of this has been happening, mod makers will get permission and use someone elses work in terms of locations, angles, storylines etc. Most of the time it works alright, sometimes people try to combine two or more so you end up with duplicate data which, in my opinion, is the epitome of lazy modmaking ... well, next to adding a promotion without workers which just makes my brain want to explode.

Also sometimes if the first person doesn't do the best job, the mistake is now spread throughout a whole bunch of mods rather than just one. Apart from that, I think a bunch of open source data could be the way to go just so long as mod makers realize it doesn't mean their job is suddenly easy. Just means a bit less time has to spent grinding out the tedious data.

[Phil Parent]

Open Source Modding Community = Good. The more tools/assets that are available for all mods the easier every modder's life will be.

Proper sets of Injuries, Angles, Locations, TV networks, PPV providers, Match Types, Gimmicks and Dojos. Each compartmentalised and effectively ready for plug and play.

Wrestlers Pic Packs done either as PNG with invisible background or as one single PSD file with each wrestler as a different layer (Id suggest these being seperated by region US/Japan/UK etc). Promotion Logos (invisible background again), Promotion TV Logos.

A few tutorials or a FAQ might be good too.

Agreed completely.

Plug & Play. Open Source Plug & Play.

This is the easiest way to say it.

I think to make it most effective, we would need help from Adam. We could use a way to export a file that contains, say, all the information on Company Z in ONE operation, and import it back in another save file used by another person in ONE operation. No singular entry import needed. Of course you can keep singular entry import in, but have this available too.

By all the info on Company Z, I mean....

- Promotion Info
- Workers
- Workers' Contracts.
- Belts
- Belt Histories

The program would also browse the pre-existing data to check for duplicates. Then you could choose to keep the original or keep the new data.

This would require human intervention post import to check for duplicates that the CPU couldn't catch (Same guy, different name/spelling), but it beats the hell out of importing it all entry per entry from the start.

[adam.TEW]

Just for getting an overview of who's interested and who's not at the moment. Phil Parent, MetalGear_Yoshi and what about you, BurningHamster and Kamchatka? So we're at least 3 now, good news. Was it possible to use some data of TEW 07 (like venues) in TEW 08? Hopefully using the pics of TEW 8 won't be a problem, though I'm photoshop skilled and could to the pics all by myself easily. (It'd just took a damn long time :D )

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

I'm definitely in adam, just keep in mind I've never modded before apart from tweaking promotions and such before I start a new game. Also I can't say I have an encyclopaedic knowledge of any promotion past or present. I guess I'm sounding a bit useless lol.

I do have an understanding of the database editor though and I guess great knowledge of feds isn't necessary to create venue or T.V network info just a little research.

If we could get some of the major modders on board it would improve our odds in succeeding, btw no offence if those already expressing interest are major players, I'm terrible at remembering names and haven't been around long enough to really gauge who's put in the hard yards.

Maybe a good idea would be to request those that are interested express what they perceive their experience level with modding is and how much time they think they might be able to donate to the project and possibly what info their interested in modding(i.e: belts, moves ect.).

So for me as noted above, I'm comfortable with the editor but have never tried to make a mod, I couldn't rightly say how much time I could devote to the project simply because I've never attempted it before so couldn't say and as for what area I'm interested in I'd say anything were I could actually help and that didn't already have a more skilled modder assigned to it.

These are all just suggestions by the way, please note I don't want to overstep my mark and try to be authoritative, I certainly don't have the experience to offer that kind of service and don't think there really should be a leader in what will hopefully be a "community" effort, unless of course it's someone with a great deal of experience or perhaps a few (respected) people to act as moderators over the project as I feel if there's an obvious single leader the project might die if that person backs out.

Any thoughts or anyone willing to join up/maybe join up when more unfolds would be quite welcome right about now :). Maybe we could start a new thread when we have, say, half a dozen members. After all 3 guy's isn't so much of a community than a normal multi-man mod team, we probably shouldn't jump the gun(or shark lol)

[Phil Parent]

I'm definitely in adam, just keep in mind I've never modded before apart from tweaking promotions and such before I start a new game. Also I can't say I have an encyclopaedic knowledge of any promotion past or present. I guess I'm sounding a bit useless lol.

I do have an understanding of the database editor though and I guess great knowledge of feds isn't necessary to create venue or T.V network info just a little research.

If we could get some of the major modders on board it would improve our odds in succeeding, btw no offence if those already expressing interest are major players, I'm terrible at remembering names and haven't been around long enough to really gauge who's put in the hard yards.

Maybe a good idea would be to request those that are interested express what they perceive their experience level with modding is and how much time they think they might be able to donate to the project and possibly what info their interested in modding(i.e: belts, moves ect.).

So for me as noted above, I'm comfortable with the editor but have never tried to make a mod, I couldn't rightly say how much time I could devote to the project simply because I've never attempted it before so couldn't say and as for what area I'm interested in I'd say anything were I could actually help and that didn't already have a more skilled modder assigned to it.

These are all just suggestions by the way, please note I don't want to overstep my mark and try to be authoritative, I certainly don't have the experience to offer that kind of service and don't think there really should be a leader in what will hopefully be a "community" effort, unless of course it's someone with a great deal of experience or perhaps a few (respected) people to act as moderators over the project as I feel if there's an obvious single leader the project might die if that person backs out.

Any thoughts or anyone willing to join up/maybe join up when more unfolds would be quite welcome right about now :). Maybe we could start a new thread when we have, say, half a dozen members. After all 3 guy's isn't so much of a community than a normal multi-man mod team, we probably shouldn't jump the gun(or shark lol)

Ok, well I've been doing this for almost ten years going back to Promotion Wars. But not so much in the last three. I did side work on three projects this year.

I also was on the game development team for a number of years.

I'm interested in doing the menial work you guys won't want to do. Venues, TV Networks, Belt histories etc...I love to work with lists i.e. getting a list of title reigns and putting it in Belt histories. It's simple.

The thing is, I'm doing fine just working on those, and I don't really have the patience to do workers anymore on a large scale.

I could always try to moderate the worker's stats though. I could keep a database in Excel or Access that would make all the data quickly available, and fully sortable etc...then you see what stats make sense and what doesn't.

Workers should be started from scratch. Because then, you don't have arguments about what is the base, and you don't carry any of the base's weaknesses.

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

Only ten years??? Just kidding, I think your 10 years trumps my 10 minutes. I'm sure I heard something about a pre-release editor, is that for anyone or beta testers or did I dream it up? If it is real is there any idea when it will drop? I'm not sure if there's any real point in starting anything bar the things that are likely to stay the same like T.V shows and such in 08 so they can be converted to 2010 latter, I could be wrong though. Can anyone share their experience with past conversions? Is it easier, harder or about the same than starting from scratch?

I'd assume now thinking about it though that even just having names with default stats would mean you wouldn't have to re-type the entire worker file and would have a clearer idea of how complete the database is, work out the kinks(double's ect.) and have all the names of promotions and belts and such and worry about stats upon release.

Also it might be good to get a name for the project once it's more clear if it's a go or not(I hope it is), something like "TEW2010 Community Assets", not very catchy but I guess the idea is to offer a resource for modders over anything else. Another thing to consider is making a check list of project goals and adding time frames for those goals(long term, short term). Things to be decided for the initial list are if we should work on one single modern day database or multiple databases based on era's(80's,90's,00's and modern is a safe bet).

Just random thoughts, speak up if I'm wrong on any account or if you think there's simpler way's to do things and sorry for getting ahead of myself. I'm looking forward to more people showing interest and sharing their talents.

Anyway, I have to head off. Hopefully when I check back in latter tonight some more people have thrown their hat in the ring.

[Kamchatka]

Im no use to you unfortunately. I have minimal knowledge of Real Life Wrestling having last properly watched it about 13 years ago and have never played any of the RL mods. Im interested in the community chest idea more from a C-verse/GDS-verse perspective.

[adam.TEW]

just keep in mind I've never modded before apart from tweaking promotions and such before I start a new game.

Well, same here ;) I guess I'm not more experienced either.


I guess I'm sounding a bit useless lol.

Every help will be appreciated. As you said, doing venues or TV networks f.e. isn't requiring any big knowledge.


I don't think there really should be a leader in what will hopefully be a "community" effort

Indeed. I never thought about this point, to be honest.


I'm interested in doing the menial work you guys won't want to do. Venues, TV Networks, Belt histories etc...I love to work with lists i.e. getting a list of title reigns and putting it in Belt histories. It's simple.

That's very helpful, I think we won't get many people who would do the menial stuff by choice.


I could always try to moderate the worker's stats though. I could keep a database in Excel or Access that would make all the data quickly available, and fully sortable etc...then you see what stats make sense and what doesn't.

Workers should be started from scratch. Because then, you don't have arguments about what is the base, and you don't carry any of the base's weaknesses.

Sounds unproblematic so far, but what do you mean with "then you see what stats make sense and what doesn't."? How could we read this out?


Also it might be good to get a name for the project once it's more clear if it's a go or not(I hope it is), something like "TEW2010 Community Assets", not very catchy but I guess the idea is to offer a resource for modders over anything else. Another thing to consider is making a check list of project goals and adding time frames for those goals(long term, short term). Things to be decided for the initial list are if we should work on one single modern day database or multiple databases based on era's(80's,90's,00's and modern is a safe bet).

I'd say we decide the project name after finishing the whole team buildup, Community Assets sounds good. We're also a few steps away from making time goals and frames without having enough members, but we should keep that in mind for sure. Speaking of the database, modern day is that kind of update I thought we'd all be intested in the most.

[Phil Parent]

What I mean is that, sometimes, people really overrate their favourites, or the workers from their local promotion. It's normal too.

You need someone to say, "No, Lightning Warrior from the Wyoming Wrestling Org is not a better high flyer than Yo****sune. No way." and change the data so that the game world stays consistent with real life.

About a name...let's see what we can do before naming it. I've got a name and it's well known (RaveX), but I don't think it's good for this. If anything, I'd stick that name on my personnal contributions, but not the whole project.

I've got some ideas more fitting.

TEW Data OPS? It's a play on words kinda. OPS can stand for "Open Source" and is also a short for "Operations", as in the job, the mission, see?

[MrCanada]

for something that has never been done effectivley, a lot of people seem to have the answers on how it should be done right.

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

I don't think people are claiming to have the "answers", simply making suggestions and offering opinions. Again I'll stress the point of my own inexperience with the modding scene, every suggestion I make is simply that, a suggestion, not an answer or a fact, sometimes not even an opinion as much as just putting an idea out there.

I'd say we decide the project name after finishing the whole team buildup, Community Assets sounds good. We're also a few steps away from making time goals and frames without having enough members, but we should keep that in mind for sure. Speaking of the database, modern day is that kind of update I thought we'd all be intested in the most.

I don't disagree per sē but I think we could get some more people to show interest in joining the project if there's a clearer picture of what we're planning to do, I do agree though with the point of time frames and detailed goals, I think I definitely jumped the gun there.

Alas, all this talk is no good with no community interest, please put your hand up anyone who wants to help, even if you don't think you've got the skills to contribute, I'm sure there would be pretty much something for anyone to do so speak up and join the effort.

[Nedew]

Two things i'll say to you guys, take it as you will. Or y'know, don't take it at all :p

Firstly, good luck!

Secondly, focus on the basics. Get the WWE done, test it, release it. Then maybe throw in some popular free agents/ex-WWE guys. Then do TNA, test it, release it. Don't straight away go for 20 promotions, go for the big ones. I'd imagine at least 50% of games played with real world mods are with the WWE, if not more than that. Another huge chunk will be TNA or ROH. Then you've got the Chikara's, the NJPW's, but that comes later.

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

Would you perhaps like to join in on the fun Nedew? Either way I'm sure we will take your advice. Thanks man.

[sabataged]

Two things i'll say to you guys, take it as you will. Or y'know, don't take it at all :p

Firstly, good luck!

Secondly, focus on the basics. Get the WWE done, test it, release it. Then maybe throw in some popular free agents/ex-WWE guys. Then do TNA, test it, release it. Don't straight away go for 20 promotions, go for the big ones. I'd imagine at least 50% of games played with real world mods are with the WWE, if not more than that. Another huge chunk will be TNA or ROH. Then you've got the Chikara's, the NJPW's, but that comes later.

Exactly...I would actually do WWE, ROH, and TNA then release it but i get what he is saying here. Don't worry about the million indy feds, get the "main 3" then move on to free agents and indy feds. Plus I would do no more then 10 feds in the US. Stick to the c-verse model for number of promotions. When the game starts with 50 promotions and 15 of them are using the exact same roster it kind of defeats the purpose.

[MrCanada]

Well my opinon (and for the record, I do have data out featuring the "main 3" + NOAH, FCW, & FIP.... really good start if people want to help) 2 things kill mods.

1) Lack of dedication/interest: This eventually happens to EVERYONE, as every data from RaveX to T-Zone to whatever dies eventually. Its bound to happen. Inevitable, but for most data this happens long before they become really playable or good mods.

2) Size: I'm a firm believer in most mods and mod makers allow their data to get to large and seem to resist deleting people and such. And the REALLY big downside to this is that when data gets really big (even some of the "top" data out now for 08) stuff is wrong. And stuff is hard to spot, and stuff is hard to update, and the data moves slow when playing or even just updating. I remeber HATING Lineage's because they took forever to do with load times. Doing mine from scratch without the clutter of some stupid lineage, it goes fast and is easy. Keeping data smaller is key to anything, removing things as appropriate. Tito Santana doesnt need to be in the data. If he makes some glourious comeback as an owner or something, okay add him.

I think data should fill two needs (two again! ha!)

A) please the mod maker. This always comes first. If the mod maker, whoever it is, doenst enjoy modding anymore because he's allowed people to push around his "vision" by adding stupid wrestlers from some stupid promtion that no one cares about, he eventually stops caring as the data is less and less his. A perfect example of this is back when all that ETWA stuff was added to T-Zone. All the workers were apparentley amongst the best indy workers in the game and I cant recall ever reading one instance of someone using him (be it in a diary, those "my tag team" or "my champion" threads.) so why are they in the data? Goes in to point 2 from above. If someone really wants them in the data they can add them himself. Not that hard to have a "ETWA data" file that you import every time a new data is released.

B) Appease to the masses (and enlist help)... I think anyone who makes mods and releases them, do it for a bit of "look what I did!" thats why I released mine... I did it mainly because I wanted it, but secondly to say "hey! look! Enjoy! feedback?". The masses help keep data when it gets a bit larger in check. I admit not knowing much of Japan, UK, and especially Mexico, having a wide release allows others to help (hopefully) and tell me stuff that has happened. (Although I always find it funny when people put "Eddie Guerrero died! RIP. Might want to remove him or set to deceased" as if the mod maker lives under a rock).


So yea. I'm willing to open my data up to be a "group effort" if peope want to help. Its a great base as people have said with the major promotions and guys in it. Right now I'm working on lineage and adding guys to flush it out. Only thing is anyone who wishes to help me, look at my data and understand it before making guys. The way I do it is typically copy a guy of a similar rating (in my opinion of course) and modify it to fit said person. That way I know when making Wrestler A that Wrestler B (the original) is this, and this guy is better/worse so this should change, ext.

http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57192

[Phil Parent]

Totally agree with Canada on this.

Data bloat is a monster that was created by the old school folks' (I plead guilty) eagerness to use the ressources given to them. Think of how limited Promotion Wars was compared to TEW 2008.

And I was guilty of it. Hell, I'm guilty of it right now!

In doing the WWE titles' histories...I ended up doing the belt histories for every belt they ever had dating back to the 50's!

Do I need to do that? Will anybody seriously ever use the WWWF United States Tag Team championship and need the belt's history, the answer is NO of course, but it's a reflex to dig for stuff and put it in. At worse I could have had all current belts plus the European, Hardcore and Cruiserweight belts, and that would have been cool with everyone.

So I lost time doing work on stuff nobody will ever use. There's a lot of that in modding. Always has been.

OT: You guys ever noticed how at the end of its history, the Hardcore title under the 24\7 rule was often won by the same guys in the same order night after night? If we would pull this crap in the game, we'd suffer from it. But WWE didn't care.

[MrCanada]

Totally agree with Canada on this.

I'm getting that framed.

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

I'm getting that framed.- Lol.

Good advice Canada, and thanks for the offer of your data :). I really like your system of tweaking similar workers stats to reflect their differences.

On the data bloat side of things, while I can see data overkill being an issue for mods and scenarios made by one or two individuals with time always needing to be managed appropriately or risk delaying release indefinitely, with a more community orientated project time might not be such an issue if there are enough people on board. In this case the main problem of bloat would be the time it takes to process all the data between days, however there's no reason why (I think) you couldn't just offer two or three options, for instance with your WWE/F title data dating all the way back to the 50's with all titles ever bought in you could give people that option to download the whole thing, one with just the current title history's plus the ones recently retired and also provide another with only the current title and 5 or 10 years of history. If this wouldn't be possible let me know.

Personally I'd love to see the entire history of the titles in the mod if for no other reason than for the project to have the secondary purpose as a historic database. I might not ever re-instate the light heavyweight tag team titles in the WWE but it would be cool to look back and see who held the titles.

In terms of load times has each reworking of the TEW franchise seen an improvement over it's predecessor in that regard?

[Nedew]

Would you perhaps like to join in on the fun Nedew? Either way I'm sure we will take your advice. Thanks man.

I have virtually zero knowledge of the wrestling scene post-2003 (or pre-1998 for that matter), so thanks for the offer but i wouldn't be of much use :)

But yeah, i hope i didn't come across too admonishingly, i've just seen far too many mods fall at the wayside because they want 10 promotions on their first release. Start small was the message i was trying to get across really. Hell, stay small, heh.

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

But yeah, i hope i didn't come across too admonishingly- Not at all man, I appreciate the advise.

i've just seen far too many mods fall at the wayside because they want 10 promotions on their first release. Start small was the message i was trying to get across really. Hell, stay small, heh.- I agree 100%, hell I live my life by the motto "aim low and never be disappointed" ;)

[dvdWarrior]

I can't say I know anything about real world mods, but speaking from my own modding experience, I'd recommend you really take a good long look at the CornellVerse before you get started - there's a reason people say it's the mod the game plays the best with.

Also, be sure to read the Help Manual, and make good and sure you really know what each of the stats is supposed to be before you get started. Reputation for example should automatically be set at 100 for everyone - unless a worker has done something that should cause you not to trust him.

Seems it'd be very easy to let a simple misunderstanding spoil a dataset is all I'm saying.

Hope I contributed something to the thread, and good luck to any of you who set out to work on one of these mods.

:)

[adam.TEW]

Good advice Canada, and thanks for the offer of your data :)

Dito! ;)

I can't say I know anything about real world mods, but speaking from my own modding experience, I'd recommend you really take a good long look at the CornellVerse before you get started - there's a reason people say it's the mod the game plays the best with.

I believe that, I'll definitely take a look on it when TEW's out.

Reputation for example should automatically be set at 100 for everyone - unless a worker has done something that should cause you not to trust him.

Hope I contributed something to the thread

Yes you did. :) Advices like this one are exactly what we need in my opinion, at least I don't know much about the relation between all the values and I can't estimate the impact of them very well. Reputation was one of the values I could never really judge. So a guy like New Jack would likely get a bad reputation value? There're no other examples coming to my mind at the moment, but I guess he's a good one.

[Karl_Kitsch]

I would help, but all I watch is Superstars, 80's Memphis, and AAA. So, if you don't mind Primo Colon, Jerry Lawler, and Chessman having the highest stats in the World, sign me up.

[praguepride]

Just browsed but offering some advice. The "Plug & Play" concept works great for items that can't be argued.

Venues, injuries, title histories etc.

However, once you start statting workers, things will break down quickly without someone checking everyone's work. One person might rate their company very "harshly" while another player is far more liberal.

So someone rates TNA as mostly B's and C's in stats to be realistic while someone rates RoH as mostly A's and B's because they think they're talented workers.

Then you run the data together and RoH KILLS TNA across the board.

My advice is either: Find a similar sized company in the C-verse and dump all those stats together for their roster.

For example, TNA = USPW. You can switch things around a bit but you only get X #of A's, Y # of B's etc. etc.

Sure the workers are different but you wont' be able to over play your promotion as there's a limit to the amount of "good" and "bad" stat points.

Maybe this makes some workers slightly less realistic but I think realism needs to take a step to the side to clear the way for fun. I think it was RaveX where you could book a show with your ass and still pull out an overall grade of A* becaue half the roster had A or higher popularity and their stats were so blue it was like looking at an aerial shot of the smurf village (translation: the majority of their stats were A's and B's with no weaknesses).


edit: One thing you could do is create "blank" workers. So you create workers but don't stat them. You do the basics (size, style, bios, title histories, tag teams) but you don't stat anything.

SO a mod maker could just load up a "blank" view of the real world and all the tedious work is done, all the workers have pictures and title histories and injuries and tag teams and contracts. BUT the "subjective" parts (i.e. stats, momentum, things like that) are unset.

[adam.TEW]

Thanks for your advices :)


edit: One thing you could do is create "blank" workers. So you create workers but don't stat them. You do the basics (size, style, bios, title histories, tag teams) but you don't stat anything.

Sure there's no way (no matter how many people work on the update) of creating a whole RL mod with maybe 40-60 promotions, whose workers have perfect values overall. But blank values would be lame. I still think asking more than 3 people about the values and take the average of them is a good way for some bigger promotions like WWE. Very
time-consuming as I said though.

if you don't mind Primo Colon, Jerry Lawler, and Chessman having the highest stats in the World

HAHAHA :D Why the hell those three of all things?

[praguepride]

You're missing my point though. You can create a template that future modders can use.

That would be far more useful, imo then just another mod with questionable stats.

If everything is at 0% then once THAT is done and posted you can go back and stat them and release your version of the mod.

And then the next person can say "i just want to focus on TNA vs. WWE and delete the other promotions and go in and stat things his way.

Trust me, you'll get this framework done far faster then if you have to stop and ask 3 people's opinion about each and every of the 1,000+ workers in the database.

Start with a framework, the barebones. Nothing subjective and once that's done you can not only continue on and do what you were going to do anyway, but also provide a huge helping hand for other RW modders out there.

I'm NOT saying that you should release a blank mod as your final product, but get the barebones in FIRST, release that as a template for other people to use, THEN add in your subjective values for stats etc.

edit: Actually you could probably do that with an older version. Take the '08 stuff and update the core (non-subjective) values to '10. THEN when '10 is released you can convert it up and you'll have done a mere fraction of the work it would take to start from scratch.

So spend your time NOW updating bios, worker histories, adjusting rosters etc. Don't worry about stats as 2010 isn't release yet. Get the basics prepped for when 2010 comes.

[MetalGear_Yoshi]

praguepride, I agree with literally everything you said :). I think blank stats are the way to go for initial release, thus we can provide an early framework not only for our project but any other peoples mods as well.

When it comes to actual stat allocation I can't really comment on the realistic vs Cornellverse conversion from mod making experience but rather from game playing experience. In terms of what's fun to play I would sway heavily towards the C-verse, the only question is is making a mod that's the most fun our goal? The way I see it the goal should be to provide the best raw data available for the community to then turn into fun and engaging scenarios. Want a C-verse conversion? Fine, take our initial blank stat release and modify it accordingly. In my opinion if our goals were to make a fun mod than we may as well stop now as the project would be the same as most every other mod ever undertaken. To reiterate the plan should be to create as large a database as possible(sans stats initially) for the use of the modding community, not to present the people with an "ultimate" mod, hell, by the end it might not be any fun what so ever for anyone to play but if that's not the goal than it wont matter. The fun will come from the scenarios made from data after release.

I really think pushing for a beta release as soon after 2010's release would spark alot of people to throw their hat in the ring to help out, with a clear view of all the promotions and workers in the database it would also be much easier to distribute promotions for people or teams to add stats to. How you go about governing what is accepted and needs to be re-worked is another issue. You can always appoint one person or team knowledgeable in say, ROH, work out the stats for the entire promotion then hand over the data to a panel of people who have not only knowledge in ROH but an understanding of the rest of the data already processed make a list of workers who need to be re-worked and also any general errors. It's still a lengthy process but quicker than having three people vote on every worker.

Anyway I'll leave my ramblings there and await new recruits ;). BTW praguepride, you wouldn't want to join the effort would you? Pretty please :)

[praguepride]

Anyway I'll leave my ramblings there and await new recruits ;). BTW praguepride, you wouldn't want to join the effort would you? Pretty please :)

Sorry, I know next to nothing about modern wrestling, or past wrestling really.

I watched the WWF (back when it was the WWF) for a couple years during the attitude era and that was that. If they weren't wrestling for the WCW/WWF I have no idea who they are.

The Miz :confused:
CM Punk :confused:
Even Cena and Orton I vaguely know of and from what I saw I didn't like 'em :D

I was a Hardy Boyz fan, 2 Cool fan, 'Taker fan (but who isn't, really :D) and Foley fan and that pretty much sums it up.

[adam.TEW]

Ahhhhh, now I got it. But sorry, you can't join the effort because you don't know CM Punk. That's very sad. :D Just kiddin'


edit: Actually you could probably do that with an older version. Take the '08 stuff and update the core (non-subjective) values to '10. THEN when '10 is released you can convert it up and you'll have done a mere fraction of the work it would take to start from scratch.

So spend your time NOW updating bios, worker histories, adjusting rosters etc. Don't worry about stats as 2010 isn't release yet. Get the basics prepped for when 2010 comes.

That's a great idea. Unfortunately I don't own TEW 8 or 7, but I can edit everything in the database in spite of that, right?

[crayon]

This idea of blank stats is a great idea. Because no doubt, for me, bios is one of the biggest time sinks I find in creating a worker.

Actually, if I may suggest something, I believe it would be more worthwhile for the TEW community as a whole if this team project focused not on making a mod, but on creating/aquiring all these plug & play assets (which may or may not include blank workers), tweak and compartmentalize them, and get them to a stage where they can all be uploaded to a central repository so any RW mod can start out with an early lead.

If you've got all of this in place (which it sounds like you'd need anyway) then you can focus on making "the mod" and debating stats and all that sort of stuff till the cows come home.

[Karl_Kitsch]

Primo Colon is on Superstars like every freakin' week, so he's the only WWE youngster I really know, besides Punk and Bourne. Primo has kinda grown on me as a solid bump machine with enough charisma that the fans respond even though he is a jobber. Nothing wrong with that.

Jerry Lawler is the King of Memphis, TN for a reason. I used to think he was just a sub-par color commentator, doing a horny version of Bobby Heenan's schtick. After watching him wrestle Bill Dundee and Terry Funk, I understand him much better. Jerry was a crazy over babyface with the best punch in wrestling and great charisma. No, really.

Chessman is a harder argument to make. I am not a lucha libre expert. I mean, I know who Silver King and Fishman and Atlantis are and I watch modern AAA, but I understand zero Spanish. I watch lucha the way I watch some of the more obscure sports at the Olympics: I may not get all of the nuance, but I know what I like and I know what impresses me. If I am watching a six-man or whatever, and Chessman is in the ring, that is where my eyes are going to be. Cool things always happen when he is around.

[Hyde Hill]

Agreed the idea of a "blank" barebones mod being out there would be a major help. Only discussion then would be which workers and which companies are in and out.

Handy tip for that is look at the C-Verse! How many are there in total both workers and promotions. Look to cater to the different product styles. It is inevitable and logical that it will be more US focused then the C-Verse but the base amount is still a good guideline.

[adam.TEW]

Someone who played TEW 8 Real Life Mods should tell us which is the best for using it as the template for doing the first step (updating the core values) ;)

[praguepride]

Agreed the idea of a "blank" barebones mod being out there would be a major help. Only discussion then would be which workers and which companies are in and out.

Agreed. I'd say more is a little better because it's easier to delete then to add left out workers.

You don't want to make it too big due to performance issues. I remember the '07 Real World vs. C-Verse had something ridiculous like 4,000 workers and 80+ active promotions and the thing took like, 5-10 minutes just to start a new game, and even longer on the first couple of days while rosters balanced out.

[Phil Parent]

You guys don't worry about Belt Histories. I love doing them. I just hope the port to TEW 2010 will be as painless as possible.

For feds, I think you start with the top 3 in the US than add from there depending on where you want to go. Top 3 US is going to be in every current real world set that includes that isn't specialized in Puroresu.

So it can go...

WWE
TNA
ROH

And then either

Chikara
PWG
CZW

Or

NJPW
AJPW
NOAH

Depends. Those should be the top 9 though.

CMLL 10th?

Dragon Gate?

NWE?

[crayon]

Agreed. I'd say more is a little better because it's easier to delete then to add left out workers.

True this. I think the thing to keep in mind is that, in regards to blank workers, no one is locked into using them (or spending time stating them) once the actual mod starts coming together.

I mean, obviously people shouldn't waste time tracking down info on Jimmy Whothehell from Buttfudge Nebraska if you know no one will ever use him and you don't care about him either, but in the sense of how big should such a community plug & play database be? Then I'm of the opinion that--if the motivation is there--then it can't ever be too big. (The resulting mods may be, but that's on the modders for being too greedy)

Hell, I'd even think about splitting the worker database up (such as alphabetically for example), for the purposes of downloading and managing updates to it.

[Karl_Kitsch]

Honestly, I can write Bios for people. It's the Stats stuff I have no skill for. If you guys need some Bios written, I'll give it a crack.

[Ghetto Anthony]

I for one wouldn't mind seeing the game being more simplified. I bought TEW 2008 and never really got a chance to play it because real world mods were non-existent for the first few months.

08 was a learning experience, and it's very unlikely I'll buy the next game until a real world mod is released. If 08 made more money than 05 I'd be surprised. The game is becoming more in-depth, and while the new features are awesome, I think it's hurting the community more than anything.

[crayon]

The game is becoming more in-depth, and while the new features are awesome, I think it's hurting the community more than anything.

The dirt-sheet feature says hello :) Nothing wrong with depth as long as its got a nice learning curve to it.

[Phil Parent]

How bit the base should be?

It should be a base. So the rosters of the Top 10-15 promotions in the world, plus some notable Free Agents, IMO. Then people create smaller packs for smaller promotions people can download and use.

About splitting the workers alphabetically.

I don't know about that, sounds like a lot of trouble. I'd be more into splitting it fed by fed, possibly have two-three people assigned to WWE because of the sheer size of it.

Because if you split alphabetically and some guy has the letter "J"...he does Jeff Hardy he's okay, he does Jeff Jarrett he's okay...then he has say, Junji Izumida. He goes "??!??" and, yeah. But if a guy says, know what, I don't care about Japan, but I like US Indys. You can give him ROH or PWG or whatever. Then he does what he likes, and uses what he knows better.

[crayon]

About splitting the workers alphabetically.

I don't know about that, sounds like a lot of trouble. I'd be more into splitting it fed by fed, possibly have two-three people assigned to WWE because of the sheer size of it.

Because if you split alphabetically and some guy has the letter "J"...he does Jeff Hardy he's okay, he does Jeff Jarrett he's okay...then he has say, Junji Izumida. He goes "??!??" and, yeah. But if a guy says, know what, I don't care about Japan, but I like US Indys. You can give him ROH or PWG or whatever. Then he does what he likes, and uses what he knows better.

Okay, I can definitely appreciate that some people may not care about certain workers, and I'd also suggest that fed by fed unfortunately has a serious shortcoming in the sense of longevity.

As in, right now the WWE pack may be relevant, but six months down the line when someone wants to make a mod, they'll have to ask themselves "okay the guy I want for my 0-day mod, was he in WWE, TNA, ROH, or somewhere else six months ago?"

I had also considered the idea of by-region, but again, that isn't static and has a bit of ambiguity to it.

Another issue is importing. If you're importing data from several different bite-sized databases (which I prefer the idea of over one massive database), you need to be able to find the people again when you go back into editing your database. If it's by alphabetical, you can easily say "right, I know that everyone I just imported can be found at this letter onwards".. rather than one guy over here, one guy over there, etc..

[sabataged]

I for one wouldn't mind seeing the game being more simplified. I bought TEW 2008 and never really got a chance to play it because real world mods were non-existent for the first few months.

08 was a learning experience, and it's very unlikely I'll buy the next game until a real world mod is released. If 08 made more money than 05 I'd be surprised. The game is becoming more in-depth, and while the new features are awesome, I think it's hurting the community more than anything.

08 is light years past 05. If you don't want in depth, go play EWR. I think most people here want in depth. And the fact that it looks like you only play real world games could be the reason you are lacking in TEW. Play the c-verse where you have to really dive into the games instead of redoing WWE.

[Ghetto Anthony]

08 is light years past 05. If you don't want in depth, go play EWR. I think most people here want in depth. And the fact that it looks like you only play real world games could be the reason you are lacking in TEW. Play the c-verse where you have to really dive into the games instead of redoing WWE.

Yeah. Tell me how to play the game more, buddy.

EWR is too simplistic and TEW is too in-depth in the sense that it's too difficult to make mods. I never said I didn't want to play an in-depth game. Stop being an ass.

[Phil Parent]

Here's the entire Belt History of WWE.

The save includes one promotion (A stand-in for WWE.), 24 titles (Every belt ever used in WWWF/WWF/WWE) and 1,192 title changes.

None of the title histories are linked to the workers' database.

Continuing to do this now with WCW, ECW and AWA title histories.

[BuddyGarner]

A larger database is one of the primary advantages of real world mods. There's not a lot of spot monkeys, mma crossovers, psychopaths, etc. In a real world mod their are more viable product options. As for worker stats, in game overness correlates highly with merchandise sales with faces getting a boost. So find, the data on merchandise and base overness on that. As for worker stats, WS2 has data on what stat levels correlate with which moves. After all, the reason most people find WWE boring is because of the low danger & intensity not lack of skill(i.e. going for double pinfalls after a dropkick and then arguing with the ref about it).

As for Charisma/Star Quality, their are confounding variables as overness and momentum can carry people to successful promos even if they have B-'s across the board in entertainment which explains why sometimes Rey Mysterio does promos.

[Vladamire Dracos]

You know, I had an idea similar to Phil's "Open Source data" many months ago, but dropped it since there was little interest at the time. I was thinking that using a wiki-like website that would allow multiple users to add content would be the best way to create a fair and balanced up to date source of core data for mod makers for TEW08 (the mod maker would still have to manually add the info into their own mod, but it's easier to type out numbers/copy and paste/move sliders with the site in the background to work from than make new data from whole cloth) and would allow a group of people to focus on their interests and add as much or as little as they felt able or had time to do. You can find my TEW Real World Wiki (http://realworldtew.wetpaint.com/) (or TEW-RWW for short) here. There's not much to see there right now, but I finished all the templates you'd need to add content if you desired, and I welcome all the Open Source guys to use the site. :) If I have people actually using it, I'll even update it to reflect TEW10 when it comes out and add templates and pages as requested. I'll even add northwest promotions and workers when I have time.

[crayon]

TEW Real World Wiki (http://realworldtew.wetpaint.com/) (or TEW-RWW for short) here. There's not much to see there right now, but I finished all the templates you'd need to add content if you desired, and I welcome all the Open Source guys to use the site. :) If I have people actually using it, I'll even update it to reflect TEW10 when it comes out and add templates and pages as requested. I'll even add northwest promotions and workers when I have time.

Very nice wiki you've got there Dracos. I hope it gets some attention (this is the first I've seen or heard of it to tell the truth) because this could be a real boon. It also remains pretty timeless, in a sense.

Don't quite agree with the no backyard wrestling information rule, however. Not saying that a lot of it wouldn't be ripe for deletion (as happens on wikis anyway), but making it such a steadfast rule doesn't give any leeway, which could cause issues if something is borderline, or a worker/"promotion" is really relevant to a related link in the future, etc. Just my 1c

[Vladamire Dracos]

Very nice wiki you've got there Dracos. I hope it gets some attention (this is the first I've seen or heard of it to tell the truth) because this could be a real boon. It also remains pretty timeless, in a sense.

Don't quite agree with the no backyard wrestling information rule, however. Not saying that a lot of it wouldn't be ripe for deletion (as happens on wikis anyway), but making it such a steadfast rule doesn't give any leeway, which could cause issues if something is borderline, or a worker/"promotion" is really relevant to a related link in the future, etc. Just my 1c

I'm willing to make an "IWA-MS exception" when an otherwise legit promotion has a few backyarders on the roster, or if someone comes to me with a reason why such and such should be allowed I may be persuaded (but it would have to be a good reason). I tried to be as rules-lite as I could be without letting anyone with a trampoline in their yard in.

[Phil Parent]

My Open Source belt history is updated...

It now contains the WCW titles.

Totals:

34 titles.
1,604 title changes.

Note that the WCW US and Cruiserweight title lineages were moved to WWE so those belts are not in WCW but in as the WWE Cruiserweight / WWE United States titles.