The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Self]

Miz and Jericho together??? I'll have to see it in action, but that sounds AWESOME! They kinda play similar characters, so it'll be interesting to see what kind of dynamic they can bring to the table. As for a name, how about 'Team No Show'?

I think I'll watch this RAW.

EDIT: Just checked out the Batista/Bryan match. Very fun.

[The Shape]

Their team name has to be the Walls of Awesome =D

That alone is amazing, but Bryan putting up a fight against Batista as well, and the whole show sounds great.

[Moe Hunter]

Totally off topic, but I was perusing some of my older DVDs and I started thinking about how much i missed Angle in the E

Isn't it about time he call off this whole TNA thing. Go back to Vince, work a couple more years as a special event MOTY attraction ala HBK and UT and get a 4 disc set released sometime in the next few years.

I miss Angle in the E so much.

That said, am I the only one who doesn't really recognise him as a "13 Time World Champion"? Maybe just because I haven't seen any of his reigns in TNA, but it just seems wrong to me.

[Bull]

I miss Angle in the E so much.

That said, am I the only one who doesn't really recognise him as a "13 Time World Champion"? Maybe just because I haven't seen any of his reigns in TNA, but it just seems wrong to me.

im pretty sure that TNA count the the medals/titles he won in amateur wrestling toward his pro wrestling titles. because he is only a 10 time champion in pro wrestling he has won the wwe title 4 times, the wcw title 1 time, the world heavyweight title, 1 time, the tna title 3 times, and the iwgp title one time. but he also has the gold medal from the olympics as well as two world titles in freestyle wrestling.

[crownsy]

Their team name has to be the Walls of Awesome =D

That alone is amazing, but Bryan putting up a fight against Batista as well, and the whole show sounds great.

It really was, best raw in a while.

The end of the cutting edge was awesome, great set up with the camera man to catch Orton doing the "Is this idiot kidding me? I know he's behind me going to spear me..." annoyed look right before turning around and RKO'ing edge in mid spear.

Just a very good raw all around, much better than recent efforts.

It didn't hurt that their guest host for the night was a person familiar with doing live TV in front of a crowd, Wayne knew when to be funny and when to just fade away and let the focus be on the talent. Props for taking a pretty decent RKO too.

[TracyBrooksFan]

SCOTS wrestling star Drew McIntyre has secretly married his former Playboy model girlfriend. WWE Intercontinental champion Drew tied the knot with fellow wrestler Taryn Terrell in Las Vegas. Drew's parents, from Ayr, got a call 15 minutes before the ceremony. His dad Andy Galloway, 50, said: "It was a shock, but we were really pleased."
Source: Sunday Mail (Scottish Newspaper)


http://i42.tinypic.com/es0t5i.jpg

[The Final Countdown]

Michael Tarver? Really? He can't even beat the guy most likely to be eliminated first?

I am pretty close to done with this show.

[shamelessposer]

He was.. well, not a train-wreck in the WWE, but he wasn't good either.

When Kurt was under WWE contract, they had him under an unofficial suicide watch.

[dvdWarrior]

I am pretty close to done with this show.

I tapped out weeks ago. I've found that Parenthood's a pretty good show, not to mention Law & Order: Criminal Intent.

:)

[Hyde Hill]

I tapped out weeks ago. I've found that Parenthood's a pretty good show, not to mention Law & Order: Criminal Intent.

:)

Vincent D'Onofrio as Det. Robert Goren kicks ass hehe.

[Self]

Poor NXT. I prefer the physical challenges over the ones where they have to talk unscripted, but the obstacle course took too long and was pretty lame. After hearing about RAW, I was psyched for this show, hoping for some repercussions from Bryan's match with Batista (kinda had them) and Miz/Jericho's Awesome Alliance (sadly nowhere to be found).

I had no problem with Bryan's loss. For one, I've kinda fallen in love with the ridiculousness that is Michael Tarver (everyone's favourite f-up). For two, Bryan had an excuse. If only he'd had excuses against Skip & Young.

Despite my misgivings about this week's show, looking forward to the elimination next week. I hope it's Young.

[Zeel1]

A ****y young punk who thinks he's the best, but hardly ever wins, spends all of his time complaining and always says he's being held down..anyone else think Tarver's character might just be a message to Carlito? :p

[Remianen]

The end of the cutting edge was awesome, great set up with the camera man to catch Orton doing the "Is this idiot kidding me? I know he's behind me going to spear me..." annoyed look right before turning around and RKO'ing edge in mid spear.

This is one thing that I believe sets WWE so far above TNA. The E's camera work and directing are just top notch. TNA's production staff seem dead set on keeping the 'indy wrestling style' constant camera cutting, which works with taped TV (since you can edit it) but DIES when live.

That shot is something most fans wouldn't notice (or would take for granted), but it really made that ending awesome, in my view.

Vincent D'Onofrio as Det. Robert Goren kicks ass hehe.

Jeff Goldblum's not bad so far. Sure, he's no Goren but he's more like a cross between Grissom and Ray Langston. He gives that odd vibe but, as a typical Jeff Goldblum character, is deadpan to the bone.

For once, I watched NXT with the sound on and I LOVE how Josh constantly points out how stupid Michael Cole is. But I will admit that one thing Cole said is correct: Probably the hardest part of that obstacle course was guzzling a 24 oz cup of soda (though I did kinda take offense at Cole saying Bryan was somehow a weirdo because he doesn't like soda. Plus the fact that Cole apparently thinks 'vegan' simply means 'he doesn't eat meat' makes him look even dumber. But in his defense, I don't think WWE's audience at large knows what the difference between 'vegetarian' and 'vegan' is either).

I think this is one of those situations where they might've been better served using a former wrestler rather than Cole. JBL would've rocked in that role. Even my hardcore WWE fanboi friends hate Cole (and not in the 'he's a heel' way. More in the 'he's a moron and I hate his shrill voice' way).

[GruntMark]

When Cole just plays it straigh/leaning faceish, I actually like his work for the most part.

However, heel Cole comes off more petty and whiny than interesting and is pretty much a disaster.

[Remianen]

When Cole just plays it straigh/leaning faceish, I actually like his work for the most part.

However, heel Cole comes off more petty and whiny than interesting and is pretty much a disaster.

Exactly! While I don't necessarily LIKE him at all, he's tolerable in the face/straight role. Trying to be a heel is just dumb though.

[Zeel1]

I see it about the opposite of that. I don't have much of an opinion on him as face, but I think he works better as a heel. He's naturally hated by most anyway, so it seems like a natural thing to use that every now and again, and I think he fits the "douchebag mark hating on the internet fans" role to a tee.

As well as this, I think that's better for Matthews, as it allows him to be able to rag on him, and therefore stand out as less nerdy. :p But maybe it's just the part in me that hates how heel commentators have become a rarity in WWE nowadays that gets me liking it. Part of the reason Striker was so refreshing for me.

Think I have differant tastes when it comes to Cole, though. I've never really hated him much, so much as he's always been kinda there for me. When I was a couple years younger, I used to actually get kind of annoyed at how much hate he got, and didn't think it was fair.

One thing though that bugs me, is how he switches from face-to-heel between Raw and NXT. It's so odd, especially when Daniel Bryan wrestled Batista - don't think he hated on him at all in that match. And yet, he picks on him constantly on NXT..pick a side, we're at war!

[GruntMark]

I miss The King as a heel commentator. He has either incredibly quick wit or a great list of notes.

Before he became all about the Puppies. :rolleyes: The last thing we needed was a commentator to tell us boobs are a good thing.

[BurningHamster]

Since when is drinking soda so difficult?

[GruntMark]

Since when is drinking soda so difficult?

Vince aint gonna push love handles? :D

[The Final Countdown]

I miss The King as a heel commentator. He has either incredibly quick wit or a great list of notes.

Before he became all about the Puppies. :rolleyes: The last thing we needed was a commentator to tell us boobs are a good thing.
Yeah, it's pretty jarring to think about how good a commentator he was for most of the 90's, and how terrible he's been for the last 12 years or so.

[BurningHamster]

Vince aint gonna push love handles? :D

Tell that to Big Show.

[GruntMark]

Tell that to Big Show.

Touche.

[Self]

Since when is drinking soda so difficult?

It takes some effort if you don't drink it regularly. I (99%) quit six months back, but yesterday when the water was cut off at work I was forced to drink a can. It was... intolerable. An actual effort. I couldn't imagine having to drink as much of those rookies did.

[Linsolv]

Vis a vis soda:

1) I quit for a month and a half, once. I'm a huge soda drinker and my girlfriend bet me I couldn't quit for Lent. Which is kinda a weird goal because neither of us is or has ever been Catholic. The hardest thing was trying to consistently find something to drink. When you walk into a McDonalds (Don't you judge me GDS!) you know you're gonna have a Coke, but their selection of non-carbonated beverages is usually water and some kind of lemonade. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's really bad. But anyways, coming back to soda was not especially difficult for me either. Though that's not a 6 month difference, and I was still drinking juice and lemonade.

2) 24 ounces is a lot to drink quickly. It takes me like, 2-3 minutes to polish one off, if I am very thirsty. I'm assuming they had to pound 24 oz, and that's tricky.

[GruntMark]

McDonalds makes a pretty good iced tea.

Ive pretty well quit soda over the last year or so. Maybe less than one every couple of weeks when the options are completely limited or I get a craving for Barq's Root Beer.

[Linsolv]

I really, really don't like tea. I'm kinda picky about what I eat/drink.

[Self]

I think I just traded one addiction for another. I'm totally into my tea right now. I've become even more of a British stereotype.

[moon_lit_tears]

McDonalds makes a pretty good iced tea.

Ive pretty well quit soda over the last year or so. Maybe less than one every couple of weeks when the options are completely limited or I get a craving for Barq's Root Beer.
I love Barq's Root Beer. YUMMM! I like to add it to my Kahlua and creame. :D
McDonalds Tea is the second best Tea I ever drink. No lemon though.

I think I just traded one addiction for another. I'm totally into my tea right now. I've become even more of a British stereotype.

Tea is awesome!!!!!

[ampulator]

It takes some effort if you don't drink it regularly. I (99%) quit six months back, but yesterday when the water was cut off at work I was forced to drink a can. It was... intolerable. An actual effort. I couldn't imagine having to drink as much of those rookies did.

Actually, that's not surprising. My mother had to quit soda for health. And now, she can't drink soda properly. Ever. It's not so much the taste as much she doesn't know to do with the carbonation. She burps it out like she's choking.

And drinking soda's... it's not the liquid so much the carbonation screws it up. You have to burp it out.

[D16NJD16]

Yeah, it's pretty jarring to think about how good a commentator he was for most of the 90's, and how terrible he's been for the last 12 years or so.

Lawler was never a good commentator. Ross made him him tolerable, and people have good memories of the two of them because of the memorable era of the 90's. Although I am glad now that for his sake and his age Vince is no longer instructing him to shriek like a woman and do a phony voice on commentary.

[ampulator]

The problem with Lawler is doesn't really try or cares for the job. The guy can cut a great promo when he wants to, but being a color commentator is just a job to ohim. He does the same thing over and over.

With JR gone, he has lost what motivation he had, which wasn't much.

[The Final Countdown]

Lawler was never a good commentator. Ross made him him tolerable, and people have good memories of the two of them because of the memorable era of the 90's. Although I am glad now that for his sake and his age Vince is no longer instructing him to shriek like a woman and do a phony voice on commentary.
I don't remember Lawler and Ross announcing together all that much in the period of time I'm talking about. Not by themselves, at least. I'm talking pre-Attitude era.

[ampulator]

It was mostly Vince McMahon and Lawler. Oh man, Vince, was a terrible PBP announcer. It wasn't exactly the best of teams.

[The Final Countdown]

It was mostly Vince McMahon and Lawler. Oh man, Vince, was a terrible PBP announcer. It wasn't exactly the best of teams.
Yeah, Vince was pretty bad. I think I'd still take him over Michael Cole, though.

[fatallylost]

No one was better than the team of Monsoon and The Brain. One of the reasons I'm OK with my age is, I lived through that.

[Stennick]

I really don't think Vince as that bad of a pbp guy. He wasn't Gordon Solie, or Jim Ross but he wasn't too bad.

"Uppppppp and dooooown", "the uuuuuuuuuuultimate warrior" I loved Vince's little sayings.

[Remianen]

Since when is drinking soda so difficult?

You can drink 24oz of soda (fountain drink style, no less) in less than 15-30 seconds? I make the distinction because soda from a can/bottle isn't the same thing as soda from those fountains. Some places load up on the soda water to use less syrup. That makes it taste 'off' which can make some people gag. It's even worse when you're not used to drinking copious amounts of it.

To some people, it would be like telling a vegetarian to eat a steak.

[ampulator]

I really don't think Vince as that bad of a pbp guy. He wasn't Gordon Solie, or Jim Ross but he wasn't too bad.

"Uppppppp and dooooown", "the uuuuuuuuuuultimate warrior" I loved Vince's little sayings.
That's what I hated about Vince. He was way too distracting. As much as I dislike Cole, at least he knows when to be quiet. Also, Vince trying to be a "face" felt so... forced, even back then. He only put Jim Ross on RAW because he could no longer announce (Montreal screwjob) and because of the Monday Night Wars (he needed the best).

Seriously, the way Jim Ross was treated in WCW and WWE is astounding to me. He's a nice guy, he likes wrestling, he understood wrestling, and he was team player.

[Hive]

I just watched the last episode of RAW, it was surprisingly good. Jericho and Miz together as unified tag team champions so they can get to Smackdown and beat on Big Show can only be good, based on the involved people. Orton vs. Edge came off to a good start. Ted DiBiase looks promising as a singles star. Cena will obviously choose a career vs. title match as stipulation against Batista, after which he'll feud with Sheamus again. Can't care much about that, but I expect Sheamus to take the belt after which Triple H comes back and feuds with him for it. John Morrison looks like someone who could make it big time, preferably without R-Truth.

With such an exciting and stacked lineup at RAW, they just need to get rid of the dreadful guest host concept. But even with that, it's probably a very wise move of TNA to go thursdays again...

[BurningHamster]

You can drink 24oz of soda (fountain drink style, no less) in less than 15-30 seconds? I make the distinction because soda from a can/bottle isn't the same thing as soda from those fountains. Some places load up on the soda water to use less syrup. That makes it taste 'off' which can make some people gag. It's even worse when you're not used to drinking copious amounts of it.

To some people, it would be like telling a vegetarian to eat a steak.

Never tried forcing myself to drink anything in any given amount of time, but the fact drinking soda is part of an obstacle course and proved to be the hardest part of it on a televised wrestling show just blows my mind.

[Linsolv]

Now, for the record, vegan doesn't mean that he doesn't drink soda. That's just separate. I wonder if him and CM Punk could have a storyline feud over Pepsi.

[Hyde Hill]

That's what I hated about Vince. He was way too distracting. As much as I dislike Cole, at least he knows when to be quiet. Also, Vince trying to be a "face" felt so... forced, even back then. He only put Jim Ross on RAW because he could no longer announce (Montreal screwjob) and because of the Monday Night Wars (he needed the best).

Seriously, the way Jim Ross was treated in WCW and WWE is astounding to me. He's a nice guy, he likes wrestling, he understood wrestling, and he was team player.

JR asked for his release at WCW after they moved him to another backstage role post Bill Watts who he was the strongest supporter of. At least according to Bisch's book. So that is not being treated badly in my book.

[PeterHilton]

Enough of that nonsense..let's talk business:

WWE released it's quarterly numbers.

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/138240/WWE-First-Quarter-Financial-Results-For-2010.htm

SPOILER ALERT: THEY MADE AN ASS TON OF MONEY.

Hard to say how successful they really were, because WM was in the second quarter last year and the first quarter this year, so it will skew high. Really can't tell for sure until the midway point of the fiscal year.

Vince did his stockholder thing and here are the posted highlights

WWE released their First Quarter Financials for 2010 earlier today. At 11AM, they had their quarterly conference call. Here are some highlights from that call…

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer Vince McMahon, Chief Financial Officer George Barrios and Chief Operating Officer Donna Goldsmith were on hand for today's conference call.

Vince started off with the good news that the profit margin for the quarter was one of the highest in company history. The bad news was that WrestleMania dropped in buys. McMahon did admit that the event may not have been "exactly what everyone wanted to see," but also said that communal viewing of the event could have hurt it as well.

The move of Smackdown to SyFy was discussed, which he felt was a good move and could add to the international business growth. He is also happy about the new toy line from Mattel. Chief Financial Officer George Barrios did a quick review of the First Quarter Financials, and then we had some question and answer time.

On WrestleMania dropping buys, Vince said that he felt the branding of last year's event as the "25th Anniversary" created nostalgia. WrestleMania did add greatly to the quarterly numbers, but was not quite what they hoped for. It was down 12% from last year's event. He noted that, "it was a good attraction, not a great attraction and sometimes you just don't give them great attractions all the time. It's the creative process, and that's the process we're in."

As for Phoenix as a host city, he felt that the city out performed as the host, and said all involved should be applauded.

Vince would not blame the economy for the drop in WrestleMania, stating that too many use that as an excuse. He related that many promoters would always make excuses for not drawing, with he exception of Bobo Brazil, because he did not believe in excuses. Bobo would say that you just can't blame it on anything else people may have decided to go with that night.

Chief Financial Officer George Barrios and Chief Operating Officer Donna Goldsmith said that they are constantly evaluating how many PPVs and live events that the company runs. They did note that there are less PPVs this year as opposed to last year.

They discussed the WWE Studios projects, noting that they were aiming for projects in the $5 million range from now on.

On the decline in video game sales, they said that it was due to "the changeover in game platforms."

Vince noted that the Rumble and Elimination Chamber did increase buys, and was asked if competition (UFC 111 on the same weekend) hurt WrestleMania. Vince stated, "We're not sure if it has or not, you're talking about two relatively different audiences, completely. The UFC audience, which I guess is what you are referring to, is more of a boxing audience than an entertainment thing, like we are. Nonetheless, there has been some of that, but from a scheduling standpoint, we can't control that. Going forward, I don't see any on the schedule at the moment."

The final thing discussed was the WWE Cable Network. They have the model set, and are now going to cable providers to see what the interest in it is.

Vince saying WM wasn't the event they hoped for was interesting.

Also, you can continue to see that WM is going to do everything possible (the whole PG thing) to avoid 'competing' with the UFC directly.

[ampulator]

JR asked for his release at WCW after they moved him to another backstage role post Bill Watts who he was the strongest supporter of. At least according to Bisch's book. So that is not being treated badly in my book.
I hate to say this, but Bischoff is a known liar and obfuscater. Are you taking Bischoff's words over Jim Ross's? Seriously? Really? Really? Just listen or read anything Jim Ross has to say about his time in WCW. The guy is usually very gentle and soft-spoken, but not when referring to WCW. Why do you think he left WCW? WCW could have paid him more than WWF could have, but he left anyway.

[Hyde Hill]

Have not heard Ross's side of what happened there so if you have a link I would be happy to read it. Preferably not shortly after the event as bad blood clouds judgement imho. Bisch's explanation sounded logical and reasonable imho.

[Remianen]

Enough of that nonsense..let's talk business:

WWE released it's quarterly numbers.

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/138240/WWE-First-Quarter-Financial-Results-For-2010.htm

SPOILER ALERT: THEY MADE AN ASS TON OF MONEY.

By whose estimation?

I've seen their numbers and they're still a dog of a stock, with radioactive fleas.

You said you wanted to talk business, let's talk about it. :)

Vince doesn't want to make excuses but the fact of the matter is, WWE's "base" was heavily affected by the economic downturn. That's not an excuse, it's facing facts. While yes, it's possible to get people to buy what they can't afford (which was partially why we got into this mess in the first place), there shouldn't be the expectation of that occurring (unless you're running a strip....err, sorry "gentleman's" club....or selling narcotics).

Personally, I think they need to attack their core audience more effectively. Sign a deal with someone to develop a cartoon (which might give them more content for their supposed network). Do a reality show with the lessons (hopefully) learned from Tough Enough. Maybe something like BET did with Keyshia Cole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyshia_Cole:_The_Way_It_Is) and Monica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica:_Still_Standing) or MTV's 'Diary' series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV_Diary).

I'm wondering how their pitch meetings will go for the network though. I know DISH did a survey on whether they should add the Big Ten Network with the almost required "slight" increase in rate. I voted hells no. While making it a premium channel seems a no brainer, most of these networks want to be a part of the first tier basic packages (for more subscriber exposure). That's going to be a seriously hard sell, I think. Not many people are likely to be willing to pay $2 a month more for whatever WWE is peddling.

[ampulator]

Have not heard Ross's side of what happened there so if you have a link I would be happy to read it. Preferably not shortly after the event as bad blood clouds judgement imho. Bisch's explanation sounded logical and reasonable imho.
He makes a lot of things he did some logical, prima facie.

[Hyde Hill]

He makes a lot of things he did some logical, prima facie.

Did not say that was not possibly the case just want the other side of the story and if possible one from a "neutral" perspective, and no Meltzer, Reynolds, Alvarez and Keller do not count in that regard.

[PeterHilton]

By whose estimation?

I've seen their numbers and they're still a dog of a stock, with radioactive fleas.

They are. i do think they are smart in that they constantly working to increase profitability and create new revenue sources.


Vince doesn't want to make excuses but the fact of the matter is, WWE's "base" was heavily affected by the economic downturn. That's not an excuse, it's facing facts. While yes, it's possible to get people to buy what they can't afford (which was partially why we got into this mess in the first place), there shouldn't be the expectation of that occurring (unless you're running a strip....err, sorry "gentleman's" club....or selling narcotics).

Agreed. I think that 'make no excuses' deal is more of rah-rah deal to feed the stockholders.

Personally, I think they need to attack their core audience more effectively. Sign a deal with someone to develop a cartoon (which might give them more content for their supposed network). Do a reality show with the lessons (hopefully) learned from Tough Enough. Maybe something like BET did with Keyshia Cole (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyshia_Cole:_The_Way_It_Is) and Monica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monica:_Still_Standing) or MTV's 'Diary' series (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTV_Diary).

I'm wondering how their pitch meetings will go for the network though. I know DISH did a survey on whether they should add the Big Ten Network with the almost required "slight" increase in rate. I voted hells no. While making it a premium channel seems a no brainer, most of these networks want to be a part of the first tier basic packages (for more subscriber exposure). That's going to be a seriously hard sell, I think. Not many people are likely to be willing to pay $2 a month more for whatever WWE is peddling.

Content is going to be a must.

And I know I wouldn't pay much more to add a WWE network unless they included tons of classic and PPV replays.

Did not say that was not possibly the case just want the other side of the story and if possible one from a "neutral" perspective, and no Meltzer, Reynolds, Alvarez and Keller do not count in that regard.

Bischoff is - for the most part - a lying piece of crap who's never admitted any personal responsibility for any situation ever. So I'd take the story of all four of those guys loooong before I'd take his word on things.

[Hyde Hill]

Bischoff is - for the most part - a lying piece of crap who's never admitted any personal responsibility for any situation ever. So I'd take the story of all four of those guys loooong before I'd take his word on things.

I do not trust either one as always the "truth" is in the middle imho. Read both Controversy and Death of WCW and think the truth is in the middle. Tried finding another source on how Ross was treated by WCW but could not find one, so if anyone knows one I would love to have it.

[ampulator]

I do not trust either one as always the "truth" is in the middle imho. Read both Controversy and Death of WCW and think the truth is in the middle. Tried finding another source on how Ross was treated by WCW but could not find one, so if anyone knows one I would love to have it.
There in lies your problem. The truth doesn't always lie in middle. Does it in many cases? Yes. Not always. I'll give an easy example.

Altough people (and some still) believed the Earth was flat, mathematics, science, and exploration proved the Earth was round.

The old belief was the Earth was flat, while the new belief was the Earth was round. The middle between would likely be "people can believe want they want."

Guess what? the Earth being flat is wrong, as is the so-called "middle" would be.

[Zeel1]

There in lies your problem. The truth doesn't always lie in middle. Does it in many cases? Yes. Not always. I'll give an easy example.

Altough people (and some still) believed the Earth was flat, mathematics, science, and exploration proved the Earth was round.

The old belief was the Earth was flat, while the new belief was the Earth was round. The middle between would likely be "people can believe want they want."

Guess what? the Earth being flat is wrong, as is the so-called "middle" would be.

Nah, dude, the middle there would be like..I don't know, a triangle?

Still wrong, but y'know.. :p

[PeterHilton]

I do not trust either one as always the "truth" is in the middle imho. Read both Controversy and Death of WCW and think the truth is in the middle. Tried finding another source on how Ross was treated by WCW but could not find one, so if anyone knows one I would love to have it.

Really? REALLY? While I know Death of WCW was very markish at times, there are lots and lots of hard numbers in there.

And there's has never been any situation at any time where Eric has accepted any blame, so it's very hard for me to accept ANYTHING he says.

It's literally impossible to think that there was any decision that WCW made where he had no say whatsoever; and definitely not the ones that just so happened to go in the tank.

Death of WCW wasn't completely right. But there's no way the truth is 'in the middle.' It's probably more like 70-30 against EB

[Hyde Hill]

There in lies your problem. The truth doesn't always lie in middle. Does it in many cases? Yes. Not always. I'll give an easy example.

Altough people (and some still) believed the Earth was flat, mathematics, science, and exploration proved the Earth was round.

The old belief was the Earth was flat, while the new belief was the Earth was round. The middle between would likely be "people can believe want they want."

Guess what? the Earth being flat is wrong, as is the so-called "middle" would be.

Lolz in these type of cases involving perception of people the "truth" is often in the middle. The world being round is scientificly testable etc. Please also see the "" and the word often. I just want both sides of the story

[Hyde Hill]

Really? REALLY? While I know Death of WCW was very markish at times, there are lots and lots of hard numbers in there.

And there's has never been any situation at any time where Eric has accepted any blame, so it's very hard for me to accept ANYTHING he says.

It's literally impossible to think that there was any decision that WCW made where he had no say whatsoever; and definitely not the ones that just so happened to go in the tank.

Death of WCW wasn't completely right. But there's no way the truth is 'in the middle.' It's probably more like 70-30 against EB

Yep but even some of those hard numbers are soft numbers so to speak. Not 100 percent correct. And yes not saying exactly in the middle.

[PeterHilton]

Yep but even some of those hard numbers are soft numbers so to speak. Not 100 percent correct. And yes not saying exactly in the middle.

We're going off topic ..but what numbers? the house show results? the buy rates? the ratings? Because all the figures came from the annual reports after the company was sold.

[Hyde Hill]

More the income and expenditure etc, not so much those. BTW where can I find those annual reports? And how did Alvarez and Reynolds get their hands on them?

Anyway nevermind as this is turning into a WCW discussion again. I just wanted info on the supposed mistreatment of Ross by WCW.

[Hyde Hill]

Lance Cade making some poignant comments about WWE's drug policy:

http://whosslammingwho.podOmatic.com/entry/2010-05-06T08_44_46-07_00

Starts at 29.40.

[ampulator]

Is it Kenny Bolin's podcast? I'm not too keen on the guy...

[Hyde Hill]

Is it Kenny Bolin's podcast? I'm not too keen on the guy...

Yeah me neither but the stuff Cade had to say was interesting.

[ampulator]

The thing is, Kenny smacks me the wrong way that Eric Bischoff does - an opportunist that knows what the truth is, but doesn't really care what it is. Like used-car salesman. Unfortunately, like Cornette, I'm allergic to bull****.

Paul Heyman lies. But not for the same reasons. Paul lies because he's doing it for the greater good... so, his intentions are not a lie, even his words are.

[Hyde Hill]

The thing is, Kenny smacks me the wrong way that Eric Bischoff does - an opportunist that knows what the truth is, but doesn't really care what it is. Like used-car salesman. Unfortunately, like Cornette, I'm allergic to bull****.

Paul Heyman lies. But not for the same reasons. Paul lies because he's doing it for the greater good... so, his intentions are not a lie, even his words are.

Hehe yeah I can definitely see that, but the stuff Cade said was pretty interesting just unfortunate that it was on Bolin's show.

[The Final Countdown]

Highlight of Smackdown: Striker making a Prince Nana reference.

[Zeel1]

http://www.thewrestlingfan.com/sdrant.html

As with last week, my recap of SD! - with an NSFW warning. Probably a bigger one than usual, thanks to the little running joke I picked for this particular one..

[LoganRodzen]

I take offense to what Triple H said in a recent interview about WWE's product:

... Triple H addressing the company's decision to make its product more family-friendly. "The Game" said he wouldn't want his kids to see the antics he pulled off during "The Attitude Era."

"I've got young kids," he said. "Years ago, we were what we were, and I certainly wouldn't want to have my young kids watch that product. We've evolved."

So how about all of us who watched during the attitude era and were under the age of 10 at the time? I was and I don't think I've turned into a crappy person because of it. I went to RAW in Dec. '97 in Portland - the only TV WWE has ever done here in Maine - and I was 8 or 9 at the time.

I remember this in great detail because it was the first time my older brother - whose 8 years older than me - wanted to bring me along to wrestling with him. He probably didn't, my folks must have gave him cash to babysit me but that's besides the point. It was the night Austin refused to defend the IC title, McMahon stripped him and awarded it to The Rock. A week later he threw it into the river. Everyone should remember that segment.

I think WWE toning down the product is an old discussion, but HHH saying that sort of irked me the wrong way.

[crownsy]

I take offense to what Triple H said in a recent interview about WWE's product:



So how about all of us who watched during the attitude era and were under the age of 10 at the time? I was and I don't think I've turned into a crappy person because of it. I went to RAW in Dec. '97 in Portland - the only TV WWE has ever done here in Maine - and I was 8 or 9 at the time.

I remember this in great detail because it was the first time my older brother - whose 8 years older than me - wanted to bring me along to wrestling with him. He probably didn't, my folks must have gave him cash to babysit me but that's besides the point. It was the night Austin refused to defend the IC title, McMahon stripped him and awarded it to The Rock. A week later he threw it into the river. Everyone should remember that segment.

I think WWE toning down the product is an old discussion, but HHH saying that sort of irked me the wrong way.


i see your point and generally agree that it's a bit hypocritical of him, but at the same time, as someone with a pair of younger brothers who watch now (9 and 12) I would not want them watching some of the more extreme parts of the attitude era.

I know it's cliche, but the katie vick and ass kissing scenes come to mind as things i would kind of cringe at them watching.

I'd have no problem with them watching a great austin promo, but some of the racier stuff...I can see H's point.

[lazorbeak]

I take offense to what Triple H said in a recent interview about WWE's product:



So how about all of us who watched during the attitude era and were under the age of 10 at the time? I was and I don't think I've turned into a crappy person because of it. I went to RAW in Dec. '97 in Portland - the only TV WWE has ever done here in Maine - and I was 8 or 9 at the time.

I remember this in great detail because it was the first time my older brother - whose 8 years older than me - wanted to bring me along to wrestling with him. He probably didn't, my folks must have gave him cash to babysit me but that's besides the point. It was the night Austin refused to defend the IC title, McMahon stripped him and awarded it to The Rock. A week later he threw it into the river. Everyone should remember that segment.

I think WWE toning down the product is an old discussion, but HHH saying that sort of irked me the wrong way.

Where is he saying that you will 'turn out crappy'? I'm not sure how it's hypocritical either, since he didn't have kids then and does now?

Also your example of a memorable segment is still completely fine within WWE' current product.

Things we've lost: Val Venis and "I chopee your pee-pee." Local escorts and models being called "Ho's." Jerry Lawler shouting "puppies!" and whistling every ten seconds a woman is on-screen. "Mr. Ass," DX acting like frat-boys.

Oh the humanity! I see where "PG" has negative connotations but really all we're losing is childish garbage that appeals to the lowest common denominator. It really has nothing to do with the actual wrestling. I mean TNA has great wrestlers but still wastes time forcing knockouts to strip and having Orlando Jordan pour lotion on himself and grown men calling each other "bitches" as though it was an edgy insult. Is that really what anyone wants? When creativity is stifled, that's a whole other problem, but I don't miss shock for shock garbage. And considering the benefits of being a more respectable company, I'm sure WWE doesn't miss it either.

[LucianCarter]

Fact is WWE's in-ring style has changed though. It's lower impact and safer now. Big Show doesn't do half the slams he did before. There are fewer big spots and bigger moves are saved mostly for finishers.

This probably has more to do with genuine care for the workers' health than the change to PG.

[Prophet]

The only thing about the PG rating that truly irritates me is the whole stance on blood. When they grayed out replays where someone bled, that was one thing, but to now stop a match because someone has a trickle of blood ... it baffles me.

They spent so long trying to play up that this is a "contact event" to avoid words like sport and competition, and in instances of contact, sometimes people bleed. And if you want to eliminate purposeful blading, that's your call, and I can understand why you'd want to do that, but why did the match with Jack Swagger a couple of weeks ago need to be stopped? He wasn't gushing blood by any stretch. I can't make heads or tails of it.

[lazorbeak]

Fact is WWE's in-ring style has changed though. It's lower impact and safer now. Big Show doesn't do half the slams he did before. There are fewer big spots and bigger moves are saved mostly for finishers.

This probably has more to do with genuine care for the workers' health than the change to PG.

Yeah I mean that's not the rating that's the intensity of the product which was almost necessitated by a bunch of guys literally breaking their neck on high impact spots. WCW in the early 90's was physically intense but was still rated PG. In fact, I think WCW was PG for nearly all of its run.

I actually don't mind the stoppage for blood, because in legit sports, when people bleed, something is done about it. Even a sport like boxing has breaks for the cut man to stop bleeding. In sports where blood is less common like basketball, you can't be on the floor while bleeding until it's covered.

[djthefunkchris]

The only thing about the PG rating that truly irritates me is the whole stance on blood. When they grayed out replays where someone bled, that was one thing, but to now stop a match because someone has a trickle of blood ... it baffles me.

They spent so long trying to play up that this is a "contact event" to avoid words like sport and competition, and in instances of contact, sometimes people bleed. And if you want to eliminate purposeful blading, that's your call, and I can understand why you'd want to do that, but why did the match with Jack Swagger a couple of weeks ago need to be stopped? He wasn't gushing blood by any stretch. I can't make heads or tails of it.

IF PG things can't have blood, then it should be obvious why.

It's a way of saying "Hey, it's fake for gosh sakes"!

[Linsolv]

I actually don't mind the stoppage for blood, because in legit sports, when people bleed, something is done about it. Even a sport like boxing has breaks for the cut man to stop bleeding. In sports where blood is less common like basketball, you can't be on the floor while bleeding until it's covered.

Not true. If you watch any of the major MMA promotions, they either wait for the round to end, or they end the fight. The closest thing they have to a break to patch up blood is if someone's bleeding profusely and they call the medic in to ask if the fight should be stopped.

If WWE wants to claim that blood is bad, they should introduce a TKO rule like boxing/MMA, and stop holding "Extreme" events and matches. (Note: Obviously, WWE isn't real, and nobody thinks that these days, but would some vague attempt to seem realistic doesn't seem that bad, especially when it's giving a logical explanation for a change of policy...)

[LoganRodzen]

Where is he saying that you will 'turn out crappy'? I'm not sure how it's hypocritical either, since he didn't have kids then and does now?

Also your example of a memorable segment is still completely fine within WWE' current product.

Things we've lost: Val Venis and "I chopee your pee-pee." Local escorts and models being called "Ho's." Jerry Lawler shouting "puppies!" and whistling every ten seconds a woman is on-screen. "Mr. Ass," DX acting like frat-boys.

Oh the humanity! I see where "PG" has negative connotations but really all we're losing is childish garbage that appeals to the lowest common denominator. It really has nothing to do with the actual wrestling. I mean TNA has great wrestlers but still wastes time forcing knockouts to strip and having Orlando Jordan pour lotion on himself and grown men calling each other "bitches" as though it was an edgy insult. Is that really what anyone wants? When creativity is stifled, that's a whole other problem, but I don't miss shock for shock garbage. And considering the benefits of being a more respectable company, I'm sure WWE doesn't miss it either.

I didn't say that he said people 'would turn out crappy'. I simply said that I don't think I've turned out crappy from watching the low-brow stuff they used to do. I have a 6 year old nephew and 9 year old niece who have seen the stuff today and think it's boring. Its disappointing because it used to be something I looked forward to when I was a kid. Wrestling has definitely lost that.

I certainly wouldn't want them seeing the Katie Vick angle or any of that other garbage but that isn't really the Attitude Era I remember. I remember the blood, the high risk moves, titles actually meaning something, the crowd seemed interested, and every match had a good build up. It's a cartoon now.

I wasn't really using that as a 'shocking' memorable moment. It was just an example of me going to wrestling when I was a kid. If you want a real one... that same night DX was playing strip poker with Chyna in the ring and the Headbangers came down to put an end to it. It was just a funny segment. Wrestling still has its funny moments today though.

IF PG things can't have blood, then it should be obvious why.

It's a way of saying "Hey, it's fake for gosh sakes"!

I'm pretty sure PG can have blood. Pretty much all of the shows on USA Network are PG. The show White Collar on there - which is a cool show - had a ton of explosions and other crap. So have other shows on that channel. I really think it's just WWE refusing to allow it.

[Prophet]

IF PG things can't have blood, then it should be obvious why.

It's a way of saying "Hey, it's fake for gosh sakes"!

If that's the case, though, then if it's on Smackdown, they should edit the piece out that shows any semblance of blood, and on Raw, they should switch camera views. Instead they make a big deal out of stopping the match to show the bleedie being cleaned up, thus still showing blood. That's why it baffles me.

[lazorbeak]

I wasn't really using that as a 'shocking' memorable moment. It was just an example of me going to wrestling when I was a kid. If you want a real one... that same night DX was playing strip poker with Chyna in the ring and the Headbangers came down to put an end to it. It was just a funny segment. Wrestling still has its funny moments today though.


Yes I know you weren't but my point is the most memorable thing isn't a dick joke it's a well-written storyline where you believed Austin's character.

One of the other great moments from that original feud was where Austin cut a promo on the tron and said something about when Rock's beeper flashed 3:16 it meant he was in for an ass kicking. Then, when Rock's beeper went off (god was this really only 12 years ago???), his eyes bugged and he turned around into a beatdown from Austin. There's no reason that same bit couldn't work today in an altered form, and blaming the TV rating ignores the fact that the problem is the writing/booking, not the fact that it's rated PG.

One of the biggest problems in marketing things for "all ages" is people think it needs to suck, and that really isn't true. Believe it or not you can have a program that appeals to kids and adults, it just has to be well-done. People, even young people, want drama, and that's the biggest thing the Attitude era gave you that's missing today. Everything else was a sideshow distraction to break up what was essentially a year-long feud between Austin and McMahon. And in the meantime you had unpredictable title changes and what felt like 1 year's worth of story crammed into a few months.

The fact that wrestling doesn't have that any more has nothing to do with its rating.

[brashleyholland]

Not true. If you watch any of the major MMA promotions, they either wait for the round to end, or they end the fight. The closest thing they have to a break to patch up blood is if someone's bleeding profusely and they call the medic in to ask if the fight should be stopped.



Actually, in Japan they often break to clean up blood if it's flowing freely. Then again, they don't do it for the fighter's sake, they do it because most decent-sized Japanese MMA is funded by corporate sponsors and the TV networks who broadcast the shows. MMA is marketed heavily towards women and families on TV...they don't like blood, so you'll often see it being wiped up by refs.

That said, they're *much* quicker to stop fights on a cut for the same reasons, so it's becoming a less-frequent occurance.

[fatallylost]

? Evan Bourne vs Zack Ryder? *reality ceases to be*

[Linsolv]

Actually, in Japan they often break to clean up blood if it's flowing freely. Then again, they don't do it for the fighter's sake, they do it because most decent-sized Japanese MMA is funded by corporate sponsors and the TV networks who broadcast the shows. MMA is marketed heavily towards women and families on TV...they don't like blood, so you'll often see it being wiped up by refs.

That said, they're *much* quicker to stop fights on a cut for the same reasons, so it's becoming a less-frequent occurance.

Well, to be honest, my only experience recently with Japanese MMA was watching DREAM.13, which I had thought someone bled in (though it was just a trickle for memory) with no special mention.

[The Final Countdown]

? Evan Bourne vs Zack Ryder? *reality ceases to be*
That's not as shocking as Daniel Bryan scoring his FIRST WIN!

....and over SANTINO MARELLA, NO LESS!

Best in the World! Best in the World! Best in the World!

[fatallylost]

That's not as shocking as Daniel Bryan scoring his FIRST WIN!

....and over SANTINO MARELLA, NO LESS!

Best in the World! Best in the World! Best in the World!

It truly has been a night of WTF on Raw!

[The Final Countdown]

Thank you, WWE. Now I can finally stop watching this terrible show.

He'll obviously show up again in some form or another, be it on NXT or one of the other shows. But for now, it's the Canucks game for me.

[Linsolv]

I'm... confused.

Didn't they say they'd release one worker every time? I'm not stupid. This is obviously a work, why would they kick anyone out for reading the script? Especially the fellow they did.

[foolinc]

I'm... confused.

Didn't they say they'd release one worker every time? I'm not stupid. This is obviously a work, why would they kick anyone out for reading the script? Especially the fellow they did.

Actually the two curveball eliminations make perfect sense considering what happened last RAW. I'm calling Tarver becoming Ted's "Virgil" and Danielson becoming the United States champion next Monday as Bret Hart's replacement.

Edit: Daniel Bryan is dead, long live Bryan Danielson!?

[The Final Countdown]

Edit: Daniel Bryan is dead, long live Bryan Danielson!?
...wha?

Did I miss something?

[Remianen]

One of the biggest problems in marketing things for "all ages" is people think it needs to suck, and that really isn't true. Believe it or not you can have a program that appeals to kids and adults, it just has to be well-done.

Please cite an example. I have yet to come across anything made for kids and adults that doesn't suck and/or that taps in to what adults like without totally alienating, ignoring, or being "too much" for kids (or vice versa). Admittedly, it's probably me since I don't tend to go for the okey doke that Joe Q. Public or Jane Soccer Mom likes and I'm a bit more...hardened than the public at large (i.e. desensitized to violence and sex for titilation purposes, etc).

Mind you, I'm not saying it's not possible (again noting that I am very particular about the things I enjoy) but I really can't think of any examples of this being true. I'm also biased against the PG area ratings as well because of how freakin' stupid the rating systems are in this country.

[Comradebot]

Actually the two curveball eliminations make perfect sense considering what happened last RAW. I'm calling Tarver becoming Ted's "Virgil" and Danielson becoming the United States champion next Monday as Bret Hart's replacement.

Edit: Daniel Bryan is dead, long live Bryan Danielson!?

Right?

Clear he isn't leaving, and you should slap yourself if you think otherwise. Go ahead, I'll give you some time to do it...

Slapped yourself?

Cool.

But seriously, they've been building towards this for a while now, and I think WWE believe Danielson has the ability to get over WITHOUT "winning" the "competition". I think Barrett will be the fellow to snag that honor in order to recieve an insta-push... though my heart wants to see Justin Gabriel get it. Not often I follow a guy for most of their career and have them then actually have a shot at the big time, and that's exactly what I've done with Gabriel.

[Linsolv]

I am not sure either.

I mean, I thought something was gonna happen tonight, based on the promo Danielson cut, but with no real follow through (at least not tonight) it came off as no different than Tarver or Sheffield's whining.

[The Final Countdown]

I am not sure either.

I mean, I thought something was gonna happen tonight, based on the promo Danielson cut, but with no real follow through (at least not tonight) it came off as no different than Tarver or Sheffield's whining.
I didn't see any promo from Bryan...guess it happened later on in the show?

[Comradebot]

Please cite an example. I have yet to come across anything made for kids and adults that doesn't suck and/or that taps in to what adults like without totally alienating, ignoring, or being "too much" for kids (or vice versa). Admittedly, it's probably me since I don't tend to go for the okey doke that Joe Q. Public or Jane Soccer Mom likes and I'm a bit more...hardened than the public at large (i.e. desensitized to violence and sex for titilation purposes, etc).

Mind you, I'm not saying it's not possible (again noting that I am very particular about the things I enjoy) but I really can't think of any examples of this being true. I'm also biased against the PG area ratings as well because of how freakin' stupid the rating systems are in this country.

Toy Story

What do I win?

[Linsolv]

Please cite an example. I have yet to come across anything made for kids and adults that doesn't suck and/or that taps in to what adults like without totally alienating, ignoring, or being "too much" for kids (or vice versa). Admittedly, it's probably me since I don't tend to go for the okey doke that Joe Q. Public or Jane Soccer Mom likes and I'm a bit more...hardened than the public at large (i.e. desensitized to violence and sex for titilation purposes, etc).

Mind you, I'm not saying it's not possible (again noting that I am very particular about the things I enjoy) but I really can't think of any examples of this being true. I'm also biased against the PG area ratings as well because of how freakin' stupid the rating systems are in this country.

Well, you could look at most indies, really. I've yet to see a promotion that significantly more cursing, nudity, and so on than the 'E, but most of it is still a quality product.

Then there's most literature (using the term loosely to refer to published fiction in general), which is only rarely aimed at kids, but also rarely has anything that specifically would make it offensive at the same time.

See, there's a difference both between "not objectionable" and "family friendly," and "family friendly" and "Aimed at kids."

Unless you're in marketing. Then Family Friendly means Aimed At Children.

-------

As I'm still kinda new to wrestling in the grand scheme of things I'll try to list off films --

An example of something that I wouldn't want kids watching: Gozu. I know, this is setting a strange beginning for this list. But this is the one film I've sat down and suggested my girlfriend watch with me until I realized her 14 year old sister was there. The adult nature of the film is, despite never reaching pornographic levels, unavoidable, and even though I watched it as an informed movie fan, it left me feeling unsettled in a pretty big way that I would never want a child experiencing. (In fact, I came in knowing that Takashi Miike, the director, tended to make somewhat... odd films. Suffice to say that while I felt unsettled, I had known what I was getting myself into.)

An example of something that's "not objectionable:" Bull Durham. Sure, there's some adult themes -- a pseudo-open relationship with a woman, for instance, is beyond what I'd normally give to a kid in a story, but if I were all growed-up and my kid came home telling me he saw Bull Durham I wouldn't be bothered.

An example of something that is, IMO, family friendly without leaving the adults behind: Most Monty Python stuff. Not all, but most. The humor's not lost on children, and the adult themes tend to be subtle. On the other hand, it was written for adults -- it just works for kids too.

On the other hand, we have The Little Mermaid 2. Now, for most of these I tried to keep pretty centerist examples (I mean, obviously if I were going for the throat I'd have complained about the Saw series or Hostel as things that I didn't want kids seeing.) but this is a perfect example of what's wrong with things being aimed at kids. When Python writes for adults, they expect them to be discerning individuals who will stop buying your stuff if you put out trash.

When Disney wrote The Little Mermaid 2, they knew darn well that they could put out ANYTHING. And that's was sliding to on RAW for most of 2009.

[ampulator]

Toy Story

What do I win?
Honestly speaking, I thought Bug's Life was better; I am so not looking forward to Toy Story 3 or Cars 2. In fact, I'm not looking forward to "Brave'... I am interested in Monsters Inc. 2, though.

[lazorbeak]

Please cite an example. I have yet to come across anything made for kids and adults that doesn't suck and/or that taps in to what adults like without totally alienating, ignoring, or being "too much" for kids (or vice versa). Admittedly, it's probably me since I don't tend to go for the okey doke that Joe Q. Public or Jane Soccer Mom likes and I'm a bit more...hardened than the public at large (i.e. desensitized to violence and sex for titilation purposes, etc).

Mind you, I'm not saying it's not possible (again noting that I am very particular about the things I enjoy) but I really can't think of any examples of this being true. I'm also biased against the PG area ratings as well because of how freakin' stupid the rating systems are in this country.

Animaniacs
The Simpsons
The Princess Bride
every Pixar movie
Indiana Jones
STAR WARS

[Linsolv]

I'm way happier with my extended commentary.

Ironically, though, for my "PG Sucks" example, I was half a second away from saying Toy Story, but decided to drive right off the PG Sucks cliff so that it was not debatable.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to point out that Star Wars, with episodes 1-3, went into the realm of alienating a lot of the adult audience, both in my own opinion and based on the internet community.

[ampulator]

Animaniacs
The Simpsons
The Princess Bride
every Pixar movie
Indiana Jones
STAR WARS

I wouldn't say EVERY Pixar movie; I'm no fan of the Toy Story series, or of their Car series, but by and large, the rest of their movies are great.

Indiana Jone isn't family friendly, actually. The films were supposed to be rated R, but Spielberg complained... and so they invented PG13 for him. I wouldn't say Simpsons is family-friendly either.

As for Star Wars, the first and third movie of the original trilogy was definitely family friendly The second wasn't so much, even though, technically speaking (I heard this from a Star Wars geek) the confirmed kill count is lower in ESB even though there was more violence and explosions in it.

If you ask me, the two best animated films are: "Batman: The Mask of the Phantasm" and ""Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero".

[lazorbeak]

Indiana Jone isn't family friendly, actually. The films were supposed to be rated R, but Spielberg complained... and so they invented PG13 for him. I wouldn't say Simpsons is family-friendly either.

Raiders is rated PG, and come on, Temple of Doom featured a child sidekick! You're telling me it wasn't for kids? And while Temple of Doom and Last Crusade had violence, they had a lot of stuff for the whole family. I singled out Indiana Jones, but a lot of "classic" Spielberg is the same way. Seriously, if you object to Indy, what about ET?

Only 13 episodes of the Simpsons (out of what, 400?) were rated anything other than TVPG, and it has jokes for kids and adults. Nobody said my examples had to be from a Christian values magazine!

As for Star Wars, the first and third movie of the original trilogy was definitely family friendly The second wasn't so much, even though, technically speaking (I heard this from a Star Wars geek) the confirmed kill count is lower in ESB even though there was more violence and explosions in it.

Yeah coming to the series cold as a 12 year old I thought I was already too old to be bothered with it because they were all such kiddie movies. I'm in the minority on that one though. Nerds complaining about the new trilogy being too kid-friendly must have watched something else as children, a serious, exciting movie that wasn't half sassy effeminate robots or stuffed animal people.

If you ask me, the two best animated films are: "Batman: The Mask of the Phantasm" and ""Batman & Mr. Freeze: SubZero".

Mask of the Phantasm is a very good movie. The whole BTAS can still be enjoyed as an adult: the full orchestra that composed music each episode, the how-to guide for one act mysteries, Mark Hamill as the Joker? It holds up really well.

[Linsolv]

Yeah coming to the series cold as a 12 year old I thought I was already too old to be bothered with it because they were all such kiddie movies. I'm in the minority on that one though. Nerds complaining about the new trilogy being too kid-friendly must have watched something else as children, a serious, exciting movie that wasn't half sassy effeminate robots or stuffed animal people.

The wide belief is that the second trilogy lacked the sense of being genuine -- generally the mark of children's movies. Or, so I understand.

[GruntMark]

every Pixar movie


This is probably the truthiest answer given.

It'd take one cold heart not have enjoyed at least one Pixar film.

[ampulator]

Raiders is rated PG, and come on, Temple of Doom featured a child sidekick! You're telling me it wasn't for kids? And while Temple of Doom and Last Crusade had violence, they had a lot of stuff for the whole family. I singled out Indiana Jones, but a lot of "classic" Spielberg is the same way. Seriously, if you object to Indy, what about ET?


Actually, Raiders was supposed to Rated R, but Spielberg complained so much that they reduced it to PG. As for the Temple of Doom, it was almost rated R again, but I think it was right then they decided to invent PG-13 to satisfy Spielberg AND to make sure the movie isn't PG (because they did not wanted to rated as PG).

I'm just stating the facts on Indiana Jones. It's not an opinion.


Only 13 episodes of the Simpsons (out of what, 400?) were rated anything other than TVPG, and it has jokes for kids and adults. Nobody said my examples had to be from a Christian values magazine!

I know, but I wouldn't let my kids, if I had any, watch a lot of the Simpsons episodes. I wouldn't mind the alcohol references so much, but so episodes... are just the edge of PG.

[lazorbeak]

My point has nothing to do with Indiana Jones, my point is that a PG rating and entertainment for adults are not exclusive concepts! I'm not saying that means all PG content is automatically for kids or that it means parents don't have to watch what their kids are watching but Remi asked for examples and I gave him a few off the top of my head. That's what I'm talking about. I don't care about the minutiae of my examples. Raiders of the Lost Arc, Star Wars, etc., are rated PG, and are enjoyed by adults. That's my point.

[ampulator]

I know, but the problem is people get lazy with PG and PG13. They cater to the rating first, and then work the content around it. Although I do not disagree with this strategy, in some cases, this leads to less quality. This is not every case obviously, but some things just work better outside of the PG and PG13 realm, but are put through the filters of PG and PG13 anyway.

I disagree with Remianen in this case, but there is some truth to his belief.

[djthefunkchris]

TV stations that broadcast the "PG" versions of movies... Some of them takes quite a bit of the movie away from it, but some of them doesn't take a thing but language out of it.

Just food for thought.

[fatallylost]

Now... getting back to the WWE portion of the thread.

What was with the camera man having a seizure during Danielson's last promo?

Also, I liked that, calling out that Daniel Bryan isn't the guy from the indies. That promo was one of the few bright spots of this entire show.

[Linsolv]

I have a related comment to make:

I've just started watching SmackDown! like, 2 weeks ago, and I was surprised to find that I really prefer their storylines, as in I actually want to know what's going to happen next. Wonder what the difference is.

[And now for the unrelated part]

TODAY'S ENDURANCE EXERCISE: trying to watch a fluorescent light tube match. Starting in like 2 minutes. I hope I can do it!

[Zeel1]

I have a related comment to make:

I've just started watching SmackDown! like, 2 weeks ago, and I was surprised to find that I really prefer their storylines, as in I actually want to know what's going to happen next. Wonder what the difference is.

[And now for the unrelated part]

TODAY'S ENDURANCE EXERCISE: trying to watch a fluorescent light tube match. Starting in like 2 minutes. I hope I can do it!

It was my recaps that convinced you, wasn't it? You're welcome, loyal reader! :D:p

[The Final Countdown]

I have a related comment to make:

I've just started watching SmackDown! like, 2 weeks ago, and I was surprised to find that I really prefer their storylines, as in I actually want to know what's going to happen next. Wonder what the difference is.

[And now for the unrelated part]

TODAY'S ENDURANCE EXERCISE: trying to watch a fluorescent light tube match. Starting in like 2 minutes. I hope I can do it!
I'm with you, definitely. Raw is the more loaded show as far as star power goes, but Smackdown remains far more interesting, IMO.

[Linsolv]

Specifically, re: Drew McIntyre. Is he fired? Probably not but when's he coming back? How? Why? All these questions!

And no, sorry Zeel. I don't really read recaps. I've checked yours once or twice, but you're too much man for me to handle.

ENDURANCE TEST UPDATE: Oops. Phone call.
I'm scared of them light tubes. I remember when I first found out how scared of garbage wrestling I was. I found out when I was watching iMPACT and saw Abyss punch a pile of thumbtacks. That's when I knew that someday... I would still be scared of hardcore wrestling.

Now that I see them in use, they're a lot less scary than I thought. They're like... I'd say made out of glass but that would make me sound stupid. Suffice to say, it looks like it hurts less than a chair shot, assuming you don't get cut, which I know darned well is coming later.

TEST FINISHED: Sorta. I ended up getting a server error from YouTube every time I tried to load past like, 4 minutes into part 2.

Came off as actually a reasonably wrestled match, just with more blood and doing a lot of stuff that made me grossed out. Not really much to write home about.

[FINisher]

http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/wwe_wrestling.gif

Haven't watched WWE for ages, I just felt a need to post this gif.. :p

[Comradebot]

http://pics.kuvaton.com/kuvei/wwe_wrestling.gif

Haven't watched WWE for ages, I just felt a need to post this gif.. :p

LOL, massive oversell. I love it.

[supershot]

That looks horrible. I guess selling isn't Batista's strong point.

[Linsolv]

A* Selling for Batista. He knew that wasn't a strong enough push for the World's Strongest Man so he made it stronger.

[Remianen]

Toy Story

What do I win?

Absolutely nothing. I know not a single adult personally who sees appeal in that series (any of the, soon to be three).

Unless you're in marketing. Then Family Friendly means Aimed At Children.

That's my entire point. And since everything in entertainment is dependent on marketing (sometimes wholly), that's why I define it thusly.

An example of something that I wouldn't want kids watching: Gozu. I know, this is setting a strange beginning for this list. But this is the one film I've sat down and suggested my girlfriend watch with me until I realized her 14 year old sister was there. The adult nature of the film is, despite never reaching pornographic levels, unavoidable, and even though I watched it as an informed movie fan, it left me feeling unsettled in a pretty big way that I would never want a child experiencing. (In fact, I came in knowing that Takashi Miike, the director, tended to make somewhat... odd films. Suffice to say that while I felt unsettled, I had known what I was getting myself into.)

This is a great example of what I was referring to. I loved Gozu but it didn't have much that a child would pick up on or understand fully. But again, I can't use myself as a sample audience because, for example, I saw Faces of Death (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faces_of_death) when I was 13 or 14 and it didn't faze me in the least (quiet as it's kept, I actually kinda liked it.).

An example of something that's "not objectionable:" Bull Durham. Sure, there's some adult themes -- a pseudo-open relationship with a woman, for instance, is beyond what I'd normally give to a kid in a story, but if I were all growed-up and my kid came home telling me he saw Bull Durham I wouldn't be bothered.

Okay, this one's good. I can see the point.

An example of something that is, IMO, family friendly without leaving the adults behind: Most Monty Python stuff. Not all, but most. The humor's not lost on children, and the adult themes tend to be subtle. On the other hand, it was written for adults -- it just works for kids too.

I dunno about this one. Maybe the slapstick bits work for kids but the material itself, eh, not for AMERICAN kids, by and large. :p

On the other hand, we have The Little Mermaid 2. Now, for most of these I tried to keep pretty centerist examples (I mean, obviously if I were going for the throat I'd have complained about the Saw series or Hostel as things that I didn't want kids seeing.) but this is a perfect example of what's wrong with things being aimed at kids. When Python writes for adults, they expect them to be discerning individuals who will stop buying your stuff if you put out trash.

When Disney wrote The Little Mermaid 2, they knew darn well that they could put out ANYTHING. And that's was sliding to on RAW for most of 2009.

Animaniacs
The Simpsons
The Princess Bride
every Pixar movie
Indiana Jones
STAR WARS

The Simpsons? Made to appeal to adults, you say? Then why Futurama?

And maybe you know adults who love them some Animaniacs (in a non-nostalgic way) but I sure don't.

I thought of the Princess Bride but it doesn't strike me as something targeted at kids, given its material (much of it subtle. Kids don't tend to do well with subtlety).

PIXAR has their moments (WALL-E had very mature themes and a very subtle message, though it was visually targeted at kids) but most of their stuff, while very good, strikes me as more of a 'kids movie that draws the parents along' (like Toy Story).

And what ampulator said about the Indiana Jones thing. When you have them change the rating system to suit you, I don't think you can say 'it was made for both kids and adults'.

But I see the point (even if I don't necessarily agree with it).

Personally, I would love to see Miz and Jericho attack Bret Hart during RAW and have him name Danielson as his replacement. Well, as long as Miz taps out to the Cattle Mutilation. :)

[The Shape]

The Simpsons? Made to appeal to adults, you say? Then why Futurama?

The Simpsons has just as much appeal either way, you watch it when you're young and enjoy the silliness but there's so much subtlety to it that adults can appreciate it as well, it is clearly very deliberately catering to both audiences.

[The Final Countdown]

Personally, I would love to see Miz and Jericho attack Bret Hart during RAW and have him name Danielson as his replacement. Well, as long as Miz taps out to the Cattle Mutilation. :)
That would probably be my first genuine mark out moment since Benoit made HHH tap at WMXX (which I feel weird about now, given how things turned out for Benoit. But at the time, I loved watching the guy.)

[ampulator]

I just want to add something on the PG/PG13 discussion. This is actually related to the WWF.

Most movies nowadays aim at those two ratings, not higher or lower. The reason is, if it's lower than PG, which is a G, even kids go "man, this movie is going to be too tame" or if it's higher than PG 13 (rated R or NC-17), then you get less sales.

A lot of the adult-oriented movies aim for the PG-13 rating, as a way to both entice kids to watch (it's violent and edgy so it's taboo!) and adults (it's violent and edgy enough not to be butchered that badly).

I'm not sure what the exact TV rating equivalent is, but actually being PG on TV makes it less... appealling to certain kids. Definitely more appealing to parents, but for kids with less supervision, they will actually be LESS inclined to watch WWE if it's PG.

[-laz-]

i wonder how badly NXT's ratings will plumet because of this, bryan danielson was the only reason i watched this crappy show, il probaly watch raw just incase he shows up but im starting to get sick of wwe and tna might take a break from them for a while

[Self]

Skimmed through NXT in like 10 minutes. I was SO psyched for this show when it began. The potential was through the roof. With the right scripting it could have been great, instead it's become an exercise in half-heartedness and awkwardness. I find it unwatchable.

I'm no massive Daniel Bryan mark, but his storyline with The Miz had amazing potential, but has been squandered. Even if he replaces Bret Hart and beats Miz, the pop is only going to be a fraction of what it would have been if the story was done right. I did mark for his promo tonight.

While not everyone would agree with me, I really liked Tarver & Sheffield. Skip had an infectious enthusiasm I really dug, and was surprisingly nimble for his size, and Tarver... well... I was enjoying watching him fail. His promo tonight was also really good. It gave a glimpse into his soul. Shame it took 12 weeks before we saw it.

Sure, the 3 could slot into role in the WWE, but personally that would annoy me. They're fighting for a chance to be in the WWE. If everyone gets a slot, why are they fighting? What's the point?

I'm done with making a big deal about the show. I keep dodging spoilers, but I really don't care any more.

[Tha Black Phenom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcaPp6PM0f8

Yep, beginning of something good. I would hope.

[The Final Countdown]

Sure, the 3 could slot into role in the WWE, but personally that would annoy me. They're fighting for a chance to be in the WWE. If everyone gets a slot, why are they fighting? What's the point?
I'd say it's more about fighting to earn a title shot on PPV.

Did you really think they wouldn't give roster spots to most, if not all of them? I think it would make little sense to devote this much time to these guys, and only have one or two stick around on the main roster. The only guy who sticks out to me as not being ready is Otunga. He needs to spend some time in FCW after NXT ends, because he is nowhere near being ready from an in-ring standpoint. I could see most everyone else at least getting a look on Raw or Smackdown, though the only guy I really care about aside from Danielson is Wade Barrett.

[djthefunkchris]

Sister Act
Footloose
Journey to the Center of the Earth
Beetlejuice
Multiplicity
IA
Remember the Titans
Cool Runnings
Crocodile Dundee
Escape from Alcatraz
Three Amigos
The Truman Show
Moonstruck
Paul Blart: Mall Cop
Phenomenon
Jaws
Kramer vs. Kramer
Driving Miss Daisy
Casablanca


Litterally thousands of PG movies, and a ton that won grammys, academy awards, etc, that were family friendly, and not just for kids. Comedy doesn't necessarily mean "kids" movie either, although young ones are always going to enjoy funny over dramatic any day.

Just wanted to chime in on this since no one even put forth one bit of effort to find anything.

[-laz-]

fill me in why are people talking about PG movies in a WWE "Wrestling" thread

[djthefunkchris]

fill me in why are people talking about PG movies in a WWE "Wrestling" thread

Because WWE is PG now, and we can't name any good PG movies that are aimed at adults.

[-laz-]

i can the lord of the rings is a PG (in UK)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120737/

[djthefunkchris]

i can the lord of the rings is a PG (in UK)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0120737/

It doesn't take a whole lot of looking to find one. Kramer vs. Kramer wasn't a kid movie at all, for example..

[-laz-]

and shrek

[djthefunkchris]

and shrek

The object is to name off PG movies that aren't made for kids... BOTH movies you named are pretty much favorable for kids.

Pluss, I believe they've already been named.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Because WWE is PG now, and we can't name any good PG movies that are aimed at adults.

Rocky

[LoganRodzen]

I'm a bit late for this but let me throw in my 2 cents:

Back To The Future Part I, II, and III are all PG. Any adult that doesn't like that trilogy can flip themselves off. I originally saw them when I was a child and loved them then and still do. I've watched them with my 6 year old nephew and 9 year old niece and neither of them fell asleep! :p

Those movies weren't aimed towards children, but they can certainly watch them without it going completely over their head.

I also thought Finding Neverland was a decent movie. Big fan of Kate Winslet and anybody who say they "hate" or "dislike" Johnny Depp doesn't have a clue how acting works. He's played so many different characters with different personalities that he can't be considered a bad actor on that fact alone. I'm not talking about crap like Pirates. I'm talking about his movies like Edward Scissorhands, What's Eating Gilbert Grape, and Donnie Brasco. Those are three completely different movies and way different roles. I went from listing a PG trilogy series to defending Johnny Depp. My bad. :o

[-laz-]

how could anyone forget this movie its not PG in usa but it is in other countrys :D

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0217756/

[LoganRodzen]

how could anyone forget this movie its not PG in usa but it is in other countrys :D

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0217756/

I still watch that sometimes. WHAT WOULD KING DO?! :rolleyes:

[-laz-]

its a guilty pleasure movie

[TheEdgeOfReason]

its a guilty pleasure movie

Definately:D

[-laz-]

i just popped the old cassete in i feel like watching it again now

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/oliver_platt_ready_to_rumble_001.jpg

[TheOmniWarrior]

Ready To Rumble FTW. After I saw that movie, I ended up making Jimmy King in every wrestling game I had. Which reminds me... ive never had him in TEW. -goes to DL a save-

[LoganRodzen]

i just popped the old cassete in i feel like watching it again now

http://unrealitymag.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/oliver_platt_ready_to_rumble_001.jpg

I WILL RULE YOU! :D

[dvdWarrior]

Ready To Rumble FTW. After I saw that movie, I ended up making Jimmy King in every wrestling game I had. Which reminds me... ive never had him in TEW. -goes to DL a save-

I had King Jimmy in a couple of games myself. Good Times.

Don't forget, Jimmy The King had a classic Best of Seven Series with Randy The Ram once upon a time!

:)

[LoganRodzen]

Favorite part of that movie is when Goldberg yells at him for puking on him in a tag team match when he was hungover or drunk and Jimmy responds, "Well the crowd liked it."

[BurningHamster]

ENDURANCE TEST UPDATE: Oops. Phone call.
I'm scared of them light tubes. I remember when I first found out how scared of garbage wrestling I was. I found out when I was watching iMPACT and saw Abyss punch a pile of thumbtacks. That's when I knew that someday... I would still be scared of hardcore wrestling.

Now that I see them in use, they're a lot less scary than I thought. They're like... I'd say made out of glass but that would make me sound stupid. Suffice to say, it looks like it hurts less than a chair shot, assuming you don't get cut, which I know darned well is coming later.

TEST FINISHED: Sorta. I ended up getting a server error from YouTube every time I tried to load past like, 4 minutes into part 2.

Came off as actually a reasonably wrestled match, just with more blood and doing a lot of stuff that made me grossed out. Not really much to write home about.

I love me some garbage wrestling but hate how predominant light tubes have become. When Onita was in his prime they had exploding barbed wire, Matsunaga had scorpions, Kanemura got the crud burnt out of him on a burning table and they showed the ambulance take him away. Now guys hit each other with easily breakable light fixtures. Not saying that I really endorse the extreme danger guys in the past put themselves through, but at least it was spectacular. A bunch of broken glass is still kinda dangerous but doesn't bring in the crowds. Shame how garbage wrestling, with the exception of Big Japan, is pretty much dead.

[-laz-]

i just made my own jimmy the king avatar :D

[TheOmniWarrior]

my two favorite parts are 1. The slurpee scene. If you watch the commentary you find out David Arquette put limburger cheese and catfood in the cup because he knew Ahmet Zappa had to thoroughly sniff the cups contents.

Also in the end when they throw Ahmet through the window and
Goldberg: CAN YOU SAY IT NOW
Ahmet: Im your ----- and your my daddy
King: It rolled right off his tongue

[Linsolv]

I love me some garbage wrestling but hate how predominant light tubes have become. When Onita was in his prime they had exploding barbed wire, Matsunaga had scorpions, Kanemura got the crud burnt out of him on a burning table and they showed the ambulance take him away. Now guys hit each other with easily breakable light fixtures. Not saying that I really endorse the extreme danger guys in the past put themselves through, but at least it was spectacular. A bunch of broken glass is still kinda dangerous but doesn't bring in the crowds. Shame how garbage wrestling, with the exception of Big Japan, is pretty much dead.

Well, see, I don't like garbage, like I said before. I wound up finding that match (Yuko Miyamoto vs Kyoko Kimura, if it matters) by complete accident, watching WWE botches. I figured it'd be a good chance to try to grow some stones, and it mostly turned out to be not as bad as I'd thought. That said, I did find an exploding barbed wire match I could've moved on to when I was having trouble loading the Kimura match, and I didn't. I'm still scared of garbage -- just not light tubes any more. :p

[BurningHamster]

Well, see, I don't like garbage, like I said before. I wound up finding that match (Yuko Miyamoto vs Kyoko Kimura, if it matters) by complete accident, watching WWE botches. I figured it'd be a good chance to try to grow some stones, and it mostly turned out to be not as bad as I'd thought. That said, I did find an exploding barbed wire match I could've moved on to when I was having trouble loading the Kimura match, and I didn't. I'm still scared of garbage -- just not light tubes any more. :p

Haha, an intergender light tubes match too? You are taking the softly softly approach :p

Not that there is anything wrong with that. There are certainly some matches you could have watched that may have been a bit too violent and put you off immediately. I personally cannot stand the older CZW garbage matches, they seem closer to some kind of weird sadistic fetish video than a wrestling match to me. Out of curiosity, how did you find the original ECW if you've seen much of it?

[Linsolv]

I haven't. I'm still trying to work my way through old WCW, since I'm a relative newcomer. Started watching... 3 years ago, maybe?

Incidentally, I thought Yuko was a woman's name, so I had thought I was coming into a joshi garbage match. Then I was like "oh. This is a dude."

[brashleyholland]

I personally cannot stand the older CZW garbage matches, they seem closer to some kind of weird sadistic fetish video than a wrestling match to me. Out of curiosity, how did you find the original ECW if you've seen much of it?

I remember someone showing me a tape of CZW with some guy getting hit in the back with a weedwhacker. Chopped him up pretty bad. Yuk.

[Linsolv]

I remember someone showing me a tape of CZW with some guy getting hit in the back with a weedwhacker. Chopped him up pretty bad. Yuk.

Once you start getting into this deathmatch stuff, I start getting to the point where like... as kayfabe is concerned, why not just bring a gun?

[The Celt]

The thing about CZW is actually the they only do one deathmatch per show unless it's the Tournament of Death and it's actually been that way for years. People just aren't really bothered about CZW so there only real reference point is the deathmatch stuff; which is a real shame for a roster that tries very hard to prove themselves as equal to their indie peers.

But if you're looking for some good deathmatch stuff I'd recommend typing Jun Kasai in youtube. Kasai is pretty much Japan's best deathmatch guy...not because he's the most goriest, but he has the pyschology and knows how to mix the shock element of deathmatch with traditional wrestling holds and stuff. Thus Kasai knows how to blend the two styles to create the best matches. He has the drama/story of regular wrestling and the shock/horror of deathmatch.

[ampulator]

I am a pretty non-hardcore guy... not because I can't stomach it (I can stomach some of it), but because I prefer the Ric Flair's/Bret Hart's/Steve Wiliam's/Kenta Kobashi's/Dusty Rhodes/Kurt Angle's/Lance Storm's. They can have good matches without doing a lot of unnecessary stuff.

[Stennick]

Hardcore wrestling is pretty silly really. If a guy can get beat over the head with light tubes and throw through tables and hung up by hooks and electricuted. How would a DDT or a piledriver be enough to pin this guy. No normal wrestling hold is going to beat a guy that can get up from being electricuted and put through flaming tables it makes zero sense. That guy would be able to walk into a "real" match and win without a blink.

I absolutely loathe "death matches" and I'm glad they stay on the outer fringes of the business.

[ampulator]

For me I have a particular style... I like workers, in TEW terms, that can workers that can workers that can in these combinations of categories: Mainstream, Comedy, Traditional, Lucha Libre, Modern, Realism, and/or Cult.

So, I believe I have a pretty broad taste, but I'm not a real fan of daredevil/hardcore/risque stuff.

[The Celt]

I think they are a number of reasons why a death match can be appealing, when done right that is:

1. Deathmatch workers can be surprising initiative and creative. They can genuine come up with ways to use weapons and such you'd just never think of yourself. Stuff like drop kicking the edge of a table causing it to ram into the other guy at the last second and stuff like that is entertaining because it catches you off guard.

2. Honestly? The brutality can be an attraction to it. I mean if you're the type of guy who says loves stiff Puro wrestling, or when Samoa Joe just murders a victim, or Amazing Kong kill a b*tch dead or a massive slugfest then I think Deathmatches have a place. I mean watching these guys, even if you don't like what they do, you'll be forced to admit they do have fighting spirit.

I guess Deathmatches are for people who found they like a vicious TLC or street fight or that kind of thing, and since that audience exists the deathmatch exists. I agree though I wouldn't want to see them go too popular, that'd be over the top, but I think them have a niche is fine.

[ampulator]

The problem is I find hardcore stuff really pushes the wrestling too over the top. Like someone said earlier, if light tubes, tables, chairs, barbed wire, electricity, fire, and falling off scaffolds don't get you, then no one should ever be able to touch you with a normal DDT or piledriver.

[Stennick]

I guess Deathmatches are for people who found they like a vicious TLC or street fight or that kind of thing, and since that audience exists the deathmatch exists. I agree though I wouldn't want to see them go too popular, that'd be over the top, but I think them have a niche is fine.


I love me a good violent wrestling match with buckets of blood and tons of violent spots. Stairs, tables, chairs, ladders, ringbells, whatever is at their "disposal".

However I want it to be an escolation of a feud. Two men can't stand each other to the point they want to put each other through as much hell as possible so they colllide in a cage match or a TLC match or an I Quite match. I want it to be a natural escolation of a story not just a "on tonights card we open up with two guys who have never met each other in a lighttube match"

Also I'm not a fan of the bringing a shopping card full of trash cans and a bunch of other lame stuff like kitchen sinks or cookoo clocks down to ringside. I prefer my hardcore matches to use the envirement around them. Use the steel steps, use the concrete floor, use the guard rails, use the ramp, heck even ladders or tables that are "under" the ring are ok by me. Use a ring bell but don't bring a shopping cart with a bunch of "plunder" to the ring such as cookie sheets and things like that. I like my hardcore matches more realistic by using the natural envirement around them rather than silly props.

[fatallylost]

A random Ready to Rumble note. One of the "students" Martin Landau lets out of the room when they go to see him was/is one of my ex-girlfriends best friends from high school.

[BurningHamster]

Hardcore wrestling is pretty silly really. If a guy can get beat over the head with light tubes and throw through tables and hung up by hooks and electricuted. How would a DDT or a piledriver be enough to pin this guy. No normal wrestling hold is going to beat a guy that can get up from being electricuted and put through flaming tables it makes zero sense. That guy would be able to walk into a "real" match and win without a blink.

I absolutely loathe "death matches" and I'm glad they stay on the outer fringes of the business.

See to me it really depends on how the match is worked. In FMW for example they had a lot of the garbage and weapons but they still kept moves strong. The Fire Thunder Powerbomb would still be used to put guys away, it may have to be used a couple of times but it was still a strong finisher. The hardcore stuff was kind of a way of wearing the opponent down as strange as that sounds and beating him up so bad that when the finisher is hit, he won't be able to get out of it. I can see the argument against the style, but the people making that argument are usually the ones who have little problem believing that referees are all blind all the time and title belts are the most powerful weapon on the face of the earth.

Also the most violent matches were saved for big shows with streetfight type and barbedwire type matches being their main garbage matches while they toured.

Linsolv's comment about bringing a gun is something I have often thought. When you have guys openly using ridiculously dangerous weapons it gets to the point where you wonder why they don't just bring firearms into it. Pretty sure one of the hardcore midgets pulled a gun on Jeff Jarrett during the early days of TNA.

[-laz-]

just a quick update on bryan danielson hes posting videos of bryan danielson on his wwe twitter account

http://twitter.com/danielbryannxt

he will be back as bryan danielson :D

from joey styles

"Wow! There are almost 2,000 videos on youtube featuring Bryan Danielson. http://ow.ly/1K6Im . Where will Bryan Danielson wrestle next?"

seems like a hint to me

[Linsolv]

Gogo SmackDown! Wait. That wouldn't fit in with his feud. Damn. I'd really rather that he showed up on SD! than Raw. Booked and written better.

[-laz-]

i agree i really cant stand raw with all those so called celebs

[crownsy]

just a quick update on bryan danielson hes posting videos of bryan danielson on his wwe twitter account

http://twitter.com/danielbryannxt

he will be back as bryan danielson :D

from joey styles

"Wow! There are almost 2,000 videos on youtube featuring Bryan Danielson. http://ow.ly/1K6Im . Where will Bryan Danielson wrestle next?"

seems like a hint to me

Well, given the exit interview on NXT, it was certain he was going to come back.

Vince ain't stupid, he knows BRyan has a built in fan base and doesn't need to win NXT. I think it's a smart move to let someone else who needs a pop win that and get a title shot at a PPV.

I fully expect that shot to be Vs. Bryan, because that's how i'd book it in TEW :D

have him beat MiZ this week for the US title, which Miz doesn't need anyway, through some crazy substation by Bret.

Hopefully, they will then have the hart Dynasty retain at OVer the Limit (though i'm split on that. I think they like the belts on the hart's, but since the belt pretty much = a way around the brand restriction without the effort of a storyline excuse, it's got to be tempting to have two great promo guys with them in Miz and Jericho)

But i'm going to say the Hart's retain, and Miz then goes after his US title, leading to a fued that holds Bryan over until NXT is done.

You probley have Otunga win, since he already keyfabe "hates" Danielson.

Then have Otunga go after Danielson because he resents him being a champ despite failing on NXT and you tie NXT in nicely with both their in ital main roster pushes.

That's what I'd do anyway....

[-laz-]

i agree plus iv read online that bret didnt even know about his "match" with the miz his son had to tell him

[-laz-]

Partial Source: The Wrestling Observer Newsletter

The winner of the inaugural season of NXT had already been determined several weeks ago as plans called for Daniel Bryan to win the competition, which has been described as a hybrid between reality television and WWE's scripted live event shows.

The plan several weeks ago was that when Bryan won the competition, he would face The Miz for his U.S. title on the first pay-per-view event following the conclusion of the season.

The rumor at RAW on Monday was that the new current plan is to have the NXT Rookie move to RAW under the name Bryan Danielson and team with someone (possibly John Morrison) to face Chris Jericho and The Miz. Of course, they could also still do The Miz vs. Bryan Danielson for the U.S. title as well and that would appear likely that we'll have a title change. Stay tuned as there are two ways in which this could go and both have been talked about backstage.

The first season of NXT was initially pegged to conclude on Jun. 8, with a new cast for a second season announced the following week. It remains unclear at this point how much longer the ongoing season will continue. Should WWE go through with a second season, it would likely conclude at the end of September since the show will at least end on Syfy at that point.

good to know

[Moe Hunter]

Wow. Talk about the epitome of dirt sheets. "Hey this was the plan but it changed and now it could be any one of many different options"

It has a very simple translation. "We have NO IDEA about anything, and are just making up ideas."

Also, the idea that Bret didn't even know he was booked is laughable.

[fatallylost]

C'mon Moe, teh intranet knowz evrything. You know this!

[The Celt]

Wow. Talk about the epitome of dirt sheets. "Hey this was the plan but it changed and now it could be any one of many different options"

It has a very simple translation. "We have NO IDEA about anything, and are just making up ideas."

Also, the idea that Bret didn't even know he was booked is laughable.

Prepare to laugh

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/138993/Various-News:-Beth-Phoenix-Injury,-Bret-Hart-Surprised-About-His-Match,-More.htm

He twitter'd or something that his son Blade (who'd better become a wrestler along with his cousin Oje Hart or I'll beat him up) had to tell him about the match.

[Stennick]

Prepare to laugh

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/138993/Various-News:-Beth-Phoenix-Injury,-Bret-Hart-Surprised-About-His-Match,-More.htm

He twitter'd or something that his son Blade (who'd better become a wrestler along with his cousin Oje Hart or I'll beat him up) had to tell him about the match.

Was it Blade or Dallas that was all set to be trained by Storm and then flaked and never showed up?

[The Celt]

I couldn't tell you, both I wouldn't hold it against either of them. I mean I the pressure of being the son of a 3rd generation worker must be immense. Maybe you love wrestling but it's not what you're made out for, and maybe you know that...but then everyone you talk says "hey...do wrestling". Talk about pressure.

But by the same token...Do wrestling! haha The potential overness for those kids is outstanding.

Just a fun fact for y'all: Kevin Nash has a kid in his late teens who is as tall as his old man. Scott Hall...also has a kid in his late teens who is as tall his old man. And that's from the mouth of Big Sexay himself.

Although Nash's kid apparently isn't too into wrestling. Damn it.


But could you imagine it...Outsiders V2? I can smell the money!

[Hive]

Hopefully, they will then have the hart Dynasty retain at OVer the Limit (though i'm split on that. I think they like the belts on the hart's, but since the belt pretty much = a way around the brand restriction without the effort of a storyline excuse, it's got to be tempting to have two great promo guys with them in Miz and Jericho)

Jericho and Miz needs the belts as a way to go to Smackdown so they can mess with Big Show, that's the whole purpose of their alliance. I see no way for the Hart Dynasty to retain.

[supershot]

If Kayfabe wasn't dead, this would have killed it...
(Not really a spoiler but just incase)

Partial source: F4Wonline.com target=_blank>F4Wonline.com

- WWE's production crew made a big technical error before the SmackDown tapings this past Tuesday night in Buffalo at the HSBC Arena. While fans were waiting to get in the arena, a TV with no audio in the front lobby was on and it was showing the WWE crew rehearsing for the show. Fans saw Teddy Long & Kofi Kingston rehearsing their segment, the Divas rehearsing their match and Jack Swagger practicing for his segment. The WWE stars prepared for the show until the doors opened for fans to come into the arena.

:eek:

[crownsy]

Jericho and Miz needs the belts as a way to go to Smackdown so they can mess with Big Show, that's the whole purpose of their alliance. I see no way for the Hart Dynasty to retain.


Since when has the brand split ment anything when a storyline means someone has to be on both shows?

For instance, Batista didn't need the tag titles to show up on raw for a solid month and a half before he was officially made a raw superstar.

I agree that a a Jericho/Miz win is far more likely, but I don't really think failure to get ahold of the tag titles means they can't screw with big show.

In fact, you could have big show cost them the match and do some creative booking things to get them over there storyline wise.

Most likely they will beat the hart's, but i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility the story will go a different way.

[Hive]

Since when has the brand split ment anything when a storyline means someone has to be on both shows?

For instance, Batista didn't need the tag titles to show up on raw for a solid month and a half before he was officially made a raw superstar.

I agree that a a Jericho/Miz win is far more likely, but I don't really think failure to get ahold of the tag titles means they can't screw with big show.

In fact, you could have big show cost them the match and do some creative booking things to get them over there storyline wise.

Most likely they will beat the hart's, but i don't think it's out of the realm of possibility the story will go a different way.

I agree with you in principle, but Miz and Jericho kayfabe being unable to go to Smackdown and mess with Big Show is the whole reason for them teaming up. Miz said directly "but Big Show is on Smackdown and we're both on RAW, so there's nothing we can do about it" to which Jericho replied that he "had a plan" or something like that - so, to me at least, it's pretty clear that the plan is for them to become unified tag champs so they can go on both brands as they please.

Also, the Batista thing can be kayfabe explained by him being Vince McMahon's henchman and thus allowed greater freedom than most (though it of course does not explain why people like Undertaker and Shawn Michaels also did it).

[crownsy]

I agree with you in principle, but Miz and Jericho kayfabe being unable to go to Smackdown and mess with Big Show is the whole reason for them teaming up. Miz said directly "but Big Show is on Smackdown and we're both on RAW, so there's nothing we can do about it" to which Jericho replied that he "had a plan" or something like that - so, to me at least, it's pretty clear that the plan is for them to become unified tag champs so they can go on both brands as they please.

Also, the Batista thing can be kayfabe explained by him being Vince McMahon's henchman and thus allowed greater freedom than most (though it of course does not explain why people like Undertaker and Shawn Michaels also did it).

Oh that's defiantly the plan in the storyline, I'm just not convinced it will go how two heels want it to go.

We shall see, though as i said i agree that it's more likely the hart's take one for the team and put miz and jericho over.

[Linsolv]

The Batista thing was lapshaded by the tag titles. He held the RAW title, he can go on RAW. Then we start getting into thinking with portals, as he's allowed to like... troll Cena thanks to his rematch clause, and he gets drafted.

As for 'Taker, he's supposed to be some kind of undead monster. What's little old Vincent Kennedy gonna do? And I thought the whole thing with Michaels was that, storyline-wise, he snuck in.

So, you see, I can make sense of this crap. It's just, you gotta be willing to play by their rules at all costs. :p

[TheOmniWarrior]

I was watching the Eddie Guerrero DVDs the other day and there was a short chunk of a clip I dont remember.
Eddie was between Taker and Edge in the ring.
Anyone remember what that was all about?
Also, on a sidenote, batista lies through his teeth lol

Batista: Im usually the guy that everyone comes to for moral support
Backstage fighting + getting divas fired = Locker Room Leader?

[-laz-]

found this and thought it summed up wwe perfectly

http://www.thewrestlingfan.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/creativeteam.jpg

[supershot]

found this and thought it summed up wwe perfectly

http://www.thewrestlingfan.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/creativeteam.jpg

10 points :D

[The Celt]

"It was the best of times, it was the borse of times?! What the deuce is this tripe!"

[Bigpapa42]

I was watching the Eddie Guerrero DVDs the other day and there was a short chunk of a clip I dont remember.
Eddie was between Taker and Edge in the ring.
Anyone remember what that was all about?
Also, on a sidenote, batista lies through his teeth lol

Batista: Im usually the guy that everyone comes to for moral support
Backstage fighting + getting divas fired = Locker Room Leader?

Guess it depends on how you see "moral support" or "leader"... Batista supposedly isn't too far behind Triple H, Cena, HBK, and Taker for backstage influence with Vince. If he does indeed have a fair bit of pull, he wouldn't be a bad person to go to if that's what you're looking for...

[Linsolv]

Given the way RAW usually opens, and my inexperience with SD!, I'm kinda surprised that McIntyre didn't run-in and steal the belt.

Incidentally, while I prefer the in-ring and backstage elements of SD! better, I really hate the commentary team on SmackDown! -- though that's true of RAW as well. I always wanna punch Todd Grisham whenever I see him. Which isn't very nice of me considering that he seems like an alright guy. Just with an incredibly punchable face. Did I... see blood on Christian's face? Wow, this is incredible! Who okayed this?

EDIT: Kinda spoke too soon. He popped out after the pin to have VKM give him the title back. Via a letter.

EDIT 2: I feel like CM Punk or the Miz should be feuding with Swagger, just because he's trying to claim their spots as "better than you" and "awesome." I wonder where he's from? I feel like he NEVER mentions his home town.

In all seriousness, though, I wonder why he didn't go after a career in football or legit wrestling.

As someone who never got recognized for a damn thing in my high school career, seeing Show destroy all those trophies actually really upset me. Swagger just got all the face heat he could've asked for from me.

[supershot]

If you ask me, Swaggie has been handling himself pretty well in promos. Better than I expected.

[ColtCabana]

As someone who never got recognized for a damn thing in my high school career, seeing Show destroy all those trophies actually really upset me. Swagger just got all the face heat he could've asked for from me.

I was the opposite, they were all fake trophies. As soon as I saw "Jack Swagger" on them instead of Jake Hager I knew they were getting smashed!

[Stennick]

In all seriousness, though, I wonder why he didn't go after a career in football or legit wrestling.

Nobody makes any money as a "legit" wrestler unless you go into MMA and it takes a different breed of cat to do that. He was a defensive end but he was second string and so chances are becoming a pro wrestler was his best bet money wise especially since when he was signed guys like Ross, Briscoe and others were still calling the shots. Brock was a better athlete IMO and he couldn't even make it in football.

[fatallylost]

I wonder where he's from? I feel like he NEVER mentions his home town.

I believe he's from Boise, Idaho.. isn't he? I thought I heard something about a love of potatoes.

[ampulator]

Nobody makes any money as a "legit" wrestler unless you go into MMA and it takes a different breed of cat to do that. He was a defensive end but he was second string and so chances are becoming a pro wrestler was his best bet money wise especially since when he was signed guys like Ross, Briscoe and others were still calling the shots. Brock was a better athlete IMO and he couldn't even make it in football.
The problem between Brock Lesnar and football was that he had done no college football, and had been out of practice for a while.

Unlike most people, I KNEW he wouldn't make it a football but believed he had a chance in MMA. MMA doesn't present the same problem: there isn't college or even high-school MMA (yet). With football, he had to work within a team. In MMA, he failed and succeeded mostly because or despite himself.

As for making money as a "legit" wrestler, I don't know... Jack Swagger could have made some money as a legit wrestler, but did he want to do so? That's the real question.

[Stennick]

How do "legit" wrestlers make any sort of real money? I'm not being a (richard) I'm just asking how legit wrestlers would make any kind of money. Isn't all shoot wrestling amateur? The Olympics, the NCAA I've not heard of any way to make money in shoot wrestling past the NCAA not directly atleast.

Like I said he could go into MMA but thats not shoot wrestling. In shoot wrestling your not being punched in the face or kicked in the head. I'm not saying you can't do it obviously Randy Couture, Brock, Hughes all say hi but I'm just saying to WANT to do it is another story.

He only had two years of college football and both of those was as a second stringer so its tough to say if he would have made it in football or not. I just don't really look at the guy and say "man he coulda been a helluva football player".

Some quick research and there is an interview with Koscheck talking about exactly what I was saying. There is no money in wrestling and thats why guys get into MMA. He says you might make 30 a year as a coach and maybe if you win the olympics some cash.

http://www.mercurynews.com/sports/ci_15043420

[ampulator]

When I mean making money, I mean making enough money to live, not necessarily more than that. That's one thing legit sports have other pro wrestling... you might not be making a lot, but you don't be dirt poor. For pro-wrestling, it's either Japan, WWE, or you don't make money, period.

Swagger could have made enough money to feed himself, maybe even his family if he has one.

[Stennick]

Yeah idk man. 30,000 is what he says most wrestlers get as coaches thats not a lot of scratch to feed a family. You can do it sure but why? You're not making money AS a wrestler you're making money AFTER being a wrestler. So you're making 30 G's a year to coach other kids. Unless thats your passion in life (if so great) otherwise you might as well take the degree you got while you were there and use it. Swagger for instance had a degree in finance he could have easily doubled that 30 G's a year.

I've said it for years even when WCW was in full swing. There are less people making a full time living at pro wrestling than major league baseball, than pro football, or any of the major sports in our country.

Your chances of making a living at being a pro wrestler are smaller than they are playing in a major pro sport thats jaw dropping when you think about it.

Although wasn't Joe charging 1500 an appearance when he was ROH champion? Seems like if you work at that rate twice a month and do nothing else you'll make 36 a year so maybe the top end ROH guys make enough I really don't know.

[ampulator]

You misunderstand me. I don't mean he couldn't do something besides legit wrestling. I meant it that he COULD have done it, not there was no other options. Besides, I doubt he's making THAT much more as WWE wrestler. Jericho himself got a huge paycut when he returned to the WWE.

[Stennick]

I know you're saying it could be done but thats like saying he could work at McDonalds :D All I was saying is that you don't make money being a shoot wrestler in North America unless you go to the Olympics.

Trust me he's making a ton of cash in the WWE. Just for reference Jeff Hardy was offered 750,000 a year to wrestle for them. He turned it down but still.

I'm not saying Swagger is getting that much but he's World Heavyweight Champion I bet he's making six figures EASY. Jericho's paycut was because he was working in the WWE during their most successful time ever. Merch was up, gates were up, ppv buys were up. So yeah he's taken a pay cut but he's still making well into the six figures just like Swagger.

[ampulator]

I just want to point out that, even if they offered Jeff Hardy that amount of money, they would have probably released him anyway.

As for six figures, I don't know. I doubt that's case. Definitely high 5 figures, but six? That's hard to believe.

[Stennick]

He's World Heavyweight Champion and you don't think he's making 13 percent of what they offered Jeff? Again for all I know the guy is working for free but I just look at what they offered Jeff and I would have to believe that Swagger is making ATLEAST 13 percent of what they would be willing to pay Hardy. He's co main eventing pay per views, he's headlining house shows. Who knows but I'd be shocked if he didn't make a 100,000 a year.

On a sidenote if they were willing to throw that money at Hardy then what does Cena, Trips, Orton, Taker make?

[jbergey_2005]

It makes me sick that Vicki Guerrero is back on RAW. I was close to whipping my shoe at the TV when I heard she was the RAW GM again. There is nothing mildly interesting in her being the GM of RAW again IMO.

[masterded]

It makes me sick that Vicki Guerrero is back on RAW. I was close to whipping my shoe at the TV when I heard she was the RAW GM again. There is nothing mildly interesting in her being the GM of RAW again IMO.

Didn’t she resign at the end of Raw?

[jbergey_2005]

Didn’t she resign at the end of Raw?

LOL, I hope so I always miss the end cause the DVR always cuts off a couple minutes before the end.

You may have just made my day.

[LucianCarter]

The WWE Brass, who can't tell heel heat from X-Pac heat, heard the reaction of the crowd, who were peeved they had to see her not into her character, they decided to continue with it.

On Smackdown she claimed to be both RAW GM and Smackdown consultant.

[masterded]

The WWE Brass, who can't tell heel heat from X-Pac heat, heard the reaction of the crowd, who were peeved they had to see her not into her character, they decided to continue with it.

On Smackdown she claimed to be both RAW GM and Smackdown consultant.

That sucks.

[jbergey_2005]

True. The last thing I want to see is more face time for her and that stupid "Excuse me"

[-laz-]

that woman is one of the main reasons i stopped watching wwe on a regular basis

[Self]

I love Vickie Guerrero with the power of a thousand suns. My heart fills with joy whenever she appears on screen. She is fantastic.

That being said, her relationship with Heel Edge has run it's course. If Edge was a babyface there would be dramatic juice to squeeze out of the situation. As a Heel they're scraping the barrel.

[-laz-]

i have this habbit of changing the channel as soon as she opens her mouth

[The Shape]

For the overwhelming majority of WWE's fanbase the notion of "X Pac heat" is completely irrelevant. WWE's target audience in general will not distinguish between vickie guerrero, the performer, and vickie guerrero, the character.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I like Vickie only when she steps out of the usual "EXCUSE MEEE" spiel. I get that the catchphrase generates heat and everything, but at a certain point... change the cassette. Which is somewhat what she did during her time with the trashy divas on SmackDown!, she remained as cunning and hateful as usual, without much of the EXCUSE ME banter. However that Raw, when she came back, it looked as if she had nothing but that in the tank. Glad it was a one-trick pony though, and if they consider bringing her back... let's go for diversity this time(which also means no heel sucking up to her in some long-running angle again).

[Self]

i have this habbit of changing the channel as soon as she opens her mouth

Then you're missing the best part! ;)

I like Vickie because I've begun to dislike superheroes. When I was younger I totally dug Superman and Batman and Hulk Hogan and Bret Hart, you know, powerful warriors who are the best at everything and always win the day. They were aspiration figures. I dreamt I would one day be like them. However, as I've got older I've become... well... Me. I'm not awesome. I'm pretty good at a couple of things but all in all, I suck. So I've started to resent the superheroes I once worshipped. I can't relate to John Cena. I can't cheer on Triple H. I want to see Rey Mysterio get punched in the face really hard. I now relate to weakness, and Vickie Guerrero personifies weakness. She isn't a comfortable talker, she's physically vulnerable, so I can sympathize and relate to her pain and take great pleasure in her joy. Her victory at Wrestlemania filled me with so much joy I felt like I could burst.

I'm not a typical wrestling fan. I know that. Vickie's not everyone's cup of tea, but she's a beverage I look forward to drinking all week long.

[BurningHamster]

I'm not a typical wrestling fan. I know that.


You seem like WWE's dream fan though, whenever they do something so stupid or pointless I think that there can't actually be anyone who likes that stuff I come online, and there you are Self :p Ah well, it takes all sorts.

[ampulator]

He's World Heavyweight Champion and you don't think he's making 13 percent of what they offered Jeff? Again for all I know the guy is working for free but I just look at what they offered Jeff and I would have to believe that Swagger is making ATLEAST 13 percent of what they would be willing to pay Hardy. He's co main eventing pay per views, he's headlining house shows. Who knows but I'd be shocked if he didn't make a 100,000 a year.

On a sidenote if they were willing to throw that money at Hardy then what does Cena, Trips, Orton, Taker make?
Yes, I do doubt it, mainly 6 figures is a lot for a guy that's only a short-time champion. He hasn't been in company that long or champion that long compared to others.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Upper-midcarders make well into the six figures. Easily. Those who get five figures are divas, last I recall. It went like, main-eventers into the millions, rare cases between the ME/upper-mid mould get in the high 6 figures, then it's the midcarders who float around 100 to 300. Veteran midcarders will relatively have a bit higher, depending of course on who(Benoit was around 400K at one point, Christian pre-2005 too).

Unless there's been a general paycut in everyone's salary in the last few years, and a hell of a paycut I'd have to add, six figures definitely isn't out of the realm for Swagger. He must be in the middle, at the least.

[lazorbeak]

Yes, I do doubt it, mainly 6 figures is a lot for a guy that's only a short-time champion. He hasn't been in company that long or champion that long compared to others.

A 2004-05 report on wrestler salaries showed Psychosis, Paul London, Rene Dupree, Nunzio, and Gene Snitsky made 6 figure salaries that year.

So........ yeah.

Active workers making less then that? Stevie Richards! Also Kid Kash and Trevor Murdoch.

[Linsolv]

Active workers making less then that? Stevie Richards! Also Kid Kash and Trevor Murdoch.

I think you mean DR. Stevie Richards. He's a doctor. Dixie Carter told me.

[LoganRodzen]

I think you mean DR. Stevie Richards. He's a doctor. Dixie Carter told me.

I think Richards could go up for Most Gimmicks Used In A Career award. He's been thrown into a lot different stuff throughout the years.

[fatallylost]

I think you mean DR. Stevie Richards. He's a doctor. Dixie Carter told me.

It's true. I have a session booked in late November.

He's very busy you know.

[Slagaholic]

I think Richards could go up for Most Gimmicks Used In A Career award. He's been thrown into a lot different stuff throughout the years.

Well when your gimmick is to have a different gimmick every night, the number of gimmicks used shoots up! :P

None of his gimmicks were as entertaining as Baron Von Stevie however.

[ampulator]

That was FOUR years ago, though. Last time I heard, Jericho was went from $200,000 to $75,000 (note: this is a comparison when he left and when he returned). How do you think WWE keeps up it's "profits"? I'm certain they didn't cut the top stars' (who WWE thinks are the top) pay. But I can't be too sure for anyone lower than that.

Also, Stacy Keibler claimed that she made barely enough to feed herself, which is, she claimed, why she left; but as caveat, like someone else said earlier, she was a diva non-wrestler.

A 2004-05 report on wrestler salaries showed Psychosis, Paul London, Rene Dupree, Nunzio, and Gene Snitsky made 6 figure salaries that year.

So........ yeah.

Active workers making less then that? Stevie Richards! Also Kid Kash and Trevor Murdoch.

What was Psychosis doing in the WWE? I don't recall him doing much. He was talented (if not-so-charismatic) luchador, but that's 6 figures minimum doing nothing.

Why the hell did Paul London leave then? For opener that was used enough, he certainly didn't come out as I expected.

As for Nunzio... wow. I doubt he's going to getting that much now, but wow, if that's true. I hope he saved his money.

What I mean is, it's doubtful TODAY that will get that much, and definitely doubtful if it's the MINIMUM downpay they are getting.

If it's true, no wonder WWE is releasing so many people.

[lazorbeak]

That was FOUR years ago, though. Last time I heard, Jericho was went from $200,000 to $75,000 (note: this is a comparison when he left and when he returned). How do you think WWE keeps up it's "profits"? I'm certain they didn't cut the top stars' (who WWE thinks are the top) pay. But I can't be too sure for anyone lower than that.

When was the last time you checked?! How long ago was it that Gail Kim was talking about making 4-5 times her TNA offer being the deciding factor when she knew she'd likely be booked horribly and not enjoy her work? One year, in the middle of a huge economic downturn? And while I don't have exact numbers, 400K was a number thrown around a lot online.

As for how it keeps its "profits," it considers all of its wrestlers to be independent contractors. Independent contractors who agree to work exclusively for one company, attend all of its events as set out in a rigid schedule, and are specifically instructed how to behave on TV. And the WWE is largely dependent on these "independent contractors" doing the work set out for them as a fundamental aspect of their business. But since wrestlers are listed as independent contractors, WWE saves money both on their taxes and in the fact that they don't provide travel costs, health insurance, or any other benefits traditionally linked with "employees."

Also, Stacy Keibler claimed that she made barely enough to feed herself, which is, she claimed, why she left; but as caveat, like someone else said earlier, she was a diva non-wrestler.

Stacy was probably making over 100 grand a year at the end of her run, which sounds great until you consider the fact that WWE wasn't paying for her travel costs when she was on the road 300 days a year, and wasn't obligated to pay her the full amount if she took time off.

What was Psychosis doing in the WWE? I don't recall him doing much. He was talented (if not-so-charismatic) luchador, but that's 6 figures minimum doing nothing.

He was in the Mexi-cools. And yes, this is why indy guys sign with WWE. Because even if they get horribly mis-used, they can buy a house. Why do you think Goldust, Shannon Moore and Chuck Palumbo keep coming back for more? I doubt they have any delusions of world championships. But WWE is the promotion that pays you.

Why the hell did Paul London leave then? For opener that was used enough, he certainly didn't come out as I expected.

Paul London left because he was released from his contract? Not sure what choice he had.

As for Nunzio... wow. I doubt he's going to getting that much now, but wow, if that's true. I hope he saved his money.

What I mean is, it's doubtful TODAY that will get that much, and definitely doubtful if it's the MINIMUM downpay they are getting.

If it's true, no wonder WWE is releasing so many people.

Seriously 100K is not all that much. In TEW, anyone who makes 9K or more a month is making at least 100K (9X12=108). When you consider that the starting salary in a legit sport like the NFL is almost 5 times that and provides protections from being fired during injury along with basic employment benefits, it's not hard to see why so many legit athletes get into wrestling as a second choice.

[fatallylost]

It's amazing how it's pretty well known most wrestlers don't make too much money, but, going from indy to WWE bumps your pay rate 5000%? I'm not su sure of that one.

I can see the Cena's, Taker, HHH, etc making bank. But, the Shelton Banjamin's of the world are not making 6 figures. There may be a few, which I'm sure there are, based more on everything else they do for the company. Promotions, backstage, etc. But, $100,000 is a TON of money. My general manager barely makes too much more than that, and she's a manager of a store for the countries biggest electronics retail chain.

So, yeah.

[lazorbeak]

It's amazing how it's pretty well known most wrestlers don't make too much money, but, going from indy to WWE bumps your pay rate 5000%? I'm not su sure of that one.

I can see the Cena's, Taker, HHH, etc making bank. But, the Shelton Banjamin's of the world are not making 6 figures. There may be a few, which I'm sure there are, based more on everything else they do for the company. Promotions, backstage, etc. But, $100,000 is a TON of money. My general manager barely makes too much more than that, and she's a manager of a store for the countries biggest electronics retail chain.

So, yeah.

Yes. They are. And it's nothing new. I mean seriously, Mick Foley as Cactus Jack was making about 100K in what, 1991?

[Tha Black Phenom]

It's funny you mention him, but Shelton had a relatively bigger salary than most midcarders(would hazard a guess at 300K), could be a leading reason why they released him. His contract came up and to renew it would basically mean he'd have a paycut and clearly that would lead to the same result.

[Self]

You seem like WWE's dream fan though, whenever they do something so stupid or pointless I think that there can't actually be anyone who likes that stuff I come online, and there you are Self :p Ah well, it takes all sorts.

I like some of the 'stupid or pointless' stuff that WWE do. I like Vickie. I like Miz. I'm sure there's some third thing that internet fans universally hated that I thought was harmless and/or amusing. I'm far from WWE's ideal fan though. There's a lot I don't like about the product... It's just different from what you dislike about it. Mostly. There's probably some overlap somewhere.

[MrOnu]

I like some of the 'stupid or pointless' stuff that WWE do. I like Vickie. I like Miz. I'm sure there's some third thing that internet fans universally hated that I thought was harmless and/or amusing. I'm far from WWE's ideal fan though. There's a lot I don't like about the product... It's just different from what you dislike about it. Mostly. There's probably some overlap somewhere.


Don't worry Self, I still watch RAW mostly for Miz and Santino (well for Jericho now that he's back of course). ;)

I always say that even though there's a lot of crap I don't like, there's enough of little things to still keep me interested. Two quick examples : I don't like the superman presentation of Cena, but his promos are generally entertaining; I can't buy HHH as a face, but at least his heel opponents do a decent job enough of making me care about their story. Granted, I watch most of the regular TV matches on fast forward which says a lot about the kind of fan I am.

[The Final Countdown]

I like Miz. I'm sure there's some third thing that internet fans universally hated that I thought was harmless and/or amusing.
I think lots of internet fans like Miz these days.

[ampulator]

I think lots of internet fans like Miz these days.
Because the Miz ia awesome. Enough said.

Seriously, Miz has solid enough skills now that the IWC likes him. His fundamentals are better than John Morrison's, if you ask me (who still isn't bad, but he doesn't really the WWE style "down pat" like the Miz does), while still bringing some extra to the table to not look like every other WWE wrestler.

[Prophet]

I think lots of internet fans like Miz these days.

Think he took great steps once he broke away from Reality TV Miz, and built his new persona. And even now, his egotistical, better than everyone character has a new spin to it. Think he's grown by leaps and bounds, personally.

Also, to anyone worried about Daniel Bryan, he was on SNL last night, playing with the Heartbreakers, so I think he'll be okay. (Not really, but I was stunned how similar he looks to current look Tom Petty when Petty's wearing sunglasses. lol)

[-laz-]

i hate the miz reality tv show reject

[masterded]

i hate the miz reality tv show reject

How is he a reality TV show reject? If he wasn’t a wrestler he would most likely still be doing the reality show thing.

[PeterHilton]

i hate the miz reality tv show reject

How is he a reality TV show reject? If he wasn’t a wrestler he would most likely still be doing the reality show thing.

Actually...he's arguably the most successful reality show contestant ever.

Love the Miz. And personally, he's always seemed like a good guy..just kind of a harmless frat ball meathead.

And when (if) you watched those RW/RR challenge things, all he EVER talked about was how much he loved wrestling and how becoming a wrestling star was his biggest dream since he was a kid.

I mean...yeah that reality thing helped him get noticed and all..but this isn't some male model or failed actor or washed up football player using wrestling as his fall back plan.

This is a young guy who worked his ass off once he got a shot to do the one thing he always wanted to do: and it's wrestling. Good for him.

[crownsy]

i hate the miz reality tv show reject

Don't agree, kid gives a great promo and his ring work, while not spectacular by any means, is solid and consistent.

Miz has won me over, I think of him as a wrestler first, Reality star second at this point.

[The Shape]

Miz did a cribs sorta thing on wwe.com the other week and virtually everything in his house is stuff he won on the real world challenges, lol.

[Remianen]

That was FOUR years ago, though. Last time I heard, Jericho was went from $200,000 to $75,000 (note: this is a comparison when he left and when he returned). How do you think WWE keeps up it's "profits"? I'm certain they didn't cut the top stars' (who WWE thinks are the top) pay. But I can't be too sure for anyone lower than that.

Also, Stacy Keibler claimed that she made barely enough to feed herself, which is, she claimed, why she left; but as caveat, like someone else said earlier, she was a diva non-wrestler.



What was Psychosis doing in the WWE? I don't recall him doing much. He was talented (if not-so-charismatic) luchador, but that's 6 figures minimum doing nothing.

Why the hell did Paul London leave then? For opener that was used enough, he certainly didn't come out as I expected.

As for Nunzio... wow. I doubt he's going to getting that much now, but wow, if that's true. I hope he saved his money.

What I mean is, it's doubtful TODAY that will get that much, and definitely doubtful if it's the MINIMUM downpay they are getting.

If it's true, no wonder WWE is releasing so many people.

ampulator, stop. Just....stop. You seem to be under the (grossly mistaken) belief that 100k is a lot of money for someone in the entertainment business. It most certainly is not. Go back and read what the reaction to CM Punk signing with WWE was. When asked why he would sign with WWE when they horribly misused Shannon Moore, Punk reportedly said, "Then I'll buy a brand new Hummer and a nice house just like Shannon Moore did. (http://www.cmpunk.com/askpunk.php)" How many 'nice houses' and Hummers does 100k get you? You don't do that if you're making scratch (and 100k for a midcarder like Shannon was in ECW, is scratch. There are rappers who don't even have albums out who make more than that).

You also have to remember that WWE contracts aren't like the salary you agreed to when you took your job. Your job doesn't give you PPV bonuses or a piece of your merchandise sales or the like. If Jericho took a pay cut, he did it with a contingency in place to more than make up for it. I seriously doubt a headliner like Jericho is making less than a go-nowhere midcarder like MVP.

It's amazing how it's pretty well known most wrestlers don't make too much money, but, going from indy to WWE bumps your pay rate 5000%? I'm not su sure of that one.

I can see the Cena's, Taker, HHH, etc making bank. But, the Shelton Banjamin's of the world are not making 6 figures. There may be a few, which I'm sure there are, based more on everything else they do for the company. Promotions, backstage, etc. But, $100,000 is a TON of money. My general manager barely makes too much more than that, and she's a manager of a store for the countries biggest electronics retail chain.

I can't agree here. I guess it comes down to perspective. I made more than 100k well before my 30th birthday, all told (salary + commission + bonuses). I guess it depends on where you live also. 100k is not a lot in New York City but I imagine it would be a fortune in like Arkansas.

I would be shocked if every in-ring talent (not including the NXT rookies besides Danielson) were making less than 50. Given their schedule, less than that could probably qualify as slave labor. :p

[PeterHilton]

I can't agree here. I guess it comes down to perspective. I made more than 100k well before my 30th birthday, all told (salary + commission + bonuses). I guess it depends on where you live also. 100k is not a lot in New York City but I imagine it would be a fortune in like Arkansas.

I would be shocked if every in-ring talent (not including the NXT rookies besides Danielson) were making less than 50. Given their schedule, less than that could probably qualify as slave labor. :p


I'm a mid level sales rep at my company. After commission and quarterly bonuses, there's not a single sales rep in this segment making less than 100 K.

It's totally a matter of perspective. And your industry.

If someone is a recognizable and/or known figure in the entertainment industry and they aren't making 6 figures (before taxes) they should go ahead and shoot themselves.

[BurningHamster]

ampulator, stop. Just....stop. You seem to be under the (grossly mistaken) belief that 100k is a lot of money for someone in the entertainment business. It most certainly is not. Go back and read what the reaction to CM Punk signing with WWE was. When asked why he would sign with WWE when they horribly misused Shannon Moore, Punk reportedly said, "Then I'll buy a brand new Hummer and a nice house just like Shannon Moore did. (http://www.cmpunk.com/askpunk.php)" How many 'nice houses' and Hummers does 100k get you? You don't do that if you're making scratch (and 100k for a midcarder like Shannon was in ECW, is scratch. There are rappers who don't even have albums out who make more than that).

You also have to remember that WWE contracts aren't like the salary you agreed to when you took your job. Your job doesn't give you PPV bonuses or a piece of your merchandise sales or the like. If Jericho took a pay cut, he did it with a contingency in place to more than make up for it. I seriously doubt a headliner like Jericho is making less than a go-nowhere midcarder like MVP.



I can't agree here. I guess it comes down to perspective. I made more than 100k well before my 30th birthday, all told (salary + commission + bonuses). I guess it depends on where you live also. 100k is not a lot in New York City but I imagine it would be a fortune in like Arkansas.

I would be shocked if every in-ring talent (not including the NXT rookies besides Danielson) were making less than 50. Given their schedule, less than that could probably qualify as slave labor. :p

100k is decent money to a guy who doesn't see the need to own hundreds of pairs of shoes :p

[fatallylost]

I can't agree here. I guess it comes down to perspective. I made more than 100k well before my 30th birthday, all told (salary + commission + bonuses). I guess it depends on where you live also. 100k is not a lot in New York City but I imagine it would be a fortune in like Arkansas.

I would be shocked if every in-ring talent (not including the NXT rookies besides Danielson) were making less than 50. Given their schedule, less than that could probably qualify as slave labor. :p

I live about 35 miles outside Los Angeles, CA. I work for Best Buy. So, yeah, I think people may have heard both.

Also, I was referring to salary. All the managers have bonuses available. Stock, cash, etc.

Also, with all this talk, there is a major difference between a contract payment, and a hourly/monthly salary. I, to be completely honest, have no clue how a contract works. I imagine it's somewhat the same, just with more legal stuff as far as quitting, performance, etc.

So, take into account WWE's yearly performance. Then, figure out how many employees they have, worldwide. Production costs, and the odd expenses you never really think of (permits, license fees, etc) and this is why I tend to scoff at so many people being above 100k. Some? Yeah, never said no one does. Especially if they've been there for years (ala Shelton) you tend to renegotiate your contract every so often. This just seems like it would leave very little room for profit. Unless they get millions in kick backs for programming, and whatnot.

[fatallylost]

100k is decent money to a guy who doesn't see the need to own hundreds of pairs of shoes :p

Word. I only dream of ever seeing $30,000 at one time (or, during the course of a year, sadly.) I'd feel like Donald Trump if I had 100k.

[Bigpapa42]

I cannot imagine someone in a corporate management position making under 100k. Someone in a basic administrative position within the WWE, maybe. But if you are in a position that requires a certain amount of eduction, the pay is usually going to be pretty decent (at least if the company wants to attact and retain good employees). Specialized positions - video techs, sound engineers, creative talent, etc - are all going to be paid pretty well.

[Linsolv]

I really don't mean any offense by this Fatally, because I would kill for a 30k job right now, with college looming and no cash on the horizon, but in all honesty, the difference between a GM at a box store (notorious for paying very poorly -- not Best Buy in particular, but most chains tend to pay badly in the grand scheme of things, I'm told) and a TV star, even in an relatively minor role, seems to me like it'd be pretty big.

[PeterHilton]

This just seems like it would leave very little room for profit. Unless they get millions in kick backs for programming, and whatnot.

:confused:

check out their financials. how much money do you think they're generating? tens of thousands...?

Youre severely underestimating the scope of their revenue.

[fatallylost]

I really don't mean any offense by this Fatally, because I would kill for a 30k job right now, with college looming and no cash on the horizon, but in all honesty, the difference between a GM at a box store (notorious for paying very poorly -- not Best Buy in particular, but most chains tend to pay badly in the grand scheme of things, I'm told) and a TV star, even in an relatively minor role, seems to me like it'd be pretty big.

Oh, trust me, I know people don't make much working for companies like me (hence my crack at not even making $30,000 a year, I barely touch $20,000 annually) But, also, there is why I bring up the salary point. You said it yourself, TV star. How many wrestlers in WWE are really "Stars" or even on weekly TV? I mean, I love Zack Ryder, but, is he really making bank? Yoshi Tatsu?

I agree people like a Miz, Morrison and that tier make decent money. But, I'm saying for every one of them, you have a fistful of Caylen and Crofts to think of.

:confused:

check out their financials. how much money do you think they're generating? tens of thousands...?

Youre severely underestimating the scope of their revenue.

No no no. Think of how many employees, and worldwide expenses. This is what I'm talking about, as far as yearly salaries go. if they all made 100k, and had 100 employees, that's 1 million there. I know they make tons, but, running a company is extremely costly.

[ampulator]

ampulator, stop. Just....stop. You seem to be under the (grossly mistaken) belief that 100k is a lot of money for someone in the entertainment business. It most certainly is not. Go back and read what the reaction to CM Punk signing with WWE was. When asked why he would sign with WWE when they horribly misused Shannon Moore, Punk reportedly said, "Then I'll buy a brand new Hummer and a nice house just like Shannon Moore did. (http://www.cmpunk.com/askpunk.php)" How many 'nice houses' and Hummers does 100k get you? You don't do that if you're making scratch (and 100k for a midcarder like Shannon was in ECW, is scratch. There are rappers who don't even have albums out who make more than that).

You also have to remember that WWE contracts aren't like the salary you agreed to when you took your job. Your job doesn't give you PPV bonuses or a piece of your merchandise sales or the like. If Jericho took a pay cut, he did it with a contingency in place to more than make up for it. I seriously doubt a headliner like Jericho is making less than a go-nowhere midcarder like MVP.



I can't agree here. I guess it comes down to perspective. I made more than 100k well before my 30th birthday, all told (salary + commission + bonuses). I guess it depends on where you live also. 100k is not a lot in New York City but I imagine it would be a fortune in like Arkansas.

I would be shocked if every in-ring talent (not including the NXT rookies besides Danielson) were making less than 50. Given their schedule, less than that could probably qualify as slave labor. :p
Here's the thing though. If there were no perks for them, then 100k isn't a lot of money. But I heard WWE does a tiered system where the more you work, the more you get paid, unlike WCW, where you had a high flat rate. For a guy like Psychosis and Nunzio, who weren't used in the WWE very much at all, 100k DOES seem like a lot of money for doing a lot of nothing.

[alden]

I would say that most wreslters who are on raw/smackdown are making over 100k a year. Remember that not all wreslters get travel paid for them....that is a huge chunk.....they have to pay out the nose for health insurance.....again huge money.......i would say a "normal" wrestler will make 150 a year.....a main eventer will pull in over 500k with bonuses and so forth....guys like cena.....if he makes less then a mill a year i would be shocked.

[PeterHilton]

No no no. Think of how many employees, and worldwide expenses. This is what I'm talking about, as far as yearly salaries go. if they all made 100k, and had 100 employees, that's 1 million there. I know they make tons, but, running a company is extremely costly.

A) you post seemed to be more about the in-ring talent than the other employees. My mstake.

B) your statement 'Unless they get millions in kick backs for programming, and whatnot' seemed a bit redundant because the WWE does - in fact - get millions back for their programming.

C)Finally, if they had 100 employees making 100 k that would be 10 million.

Their revenue for the first quarter of this year alone was just under 140 million. I'm not saying they pay "everyone" 100 k a year, but people should stop acting like those are ridiculous amounts for a company the WWE's size.

[fatallylost]

A) you post seemed to be more about the in-ring talent than the other employees. My mstake.

B) your statement 'Unless they get millions in kick backs for programming, and whatnot' seemed a bit redundant because the WWE does - in fact - get millions back for their programming.

C)Finally, if they had 100 employees making 100 k that would be 10 million.

Their revenue for the first quarter of this year alone was just under 140 million. I'm not saying they pay "everyone" 100 k a year, but people should stop acting like those are ridiculous amounts for a company the WWE's size.

I could see that. I was taking in WWE as an entire entity.

Sadly, perhaps I should have said along the lines of hundreds of millions.. but, that seemed like a lot. But, let's keep the context that in my 5 years at my job, I'm still not at the point where I've made 100k.. so, it's a number I can't fully fathom either.

[PeterHilton]

Not sure if anyone is tined in, but this has been a fairly kick ass episode of Raw.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Canada shows always seem to be good for some reason. I guess its because the Canadians are prominent, and for the most part the Canadian wrestlers are awesome.

I like the slight thing they have going on with Edges Spear becoming easy to read, and him struggling to hit it.

[ampulator]

Canada shows always seem to be good for some reason. I guess its because the Canadians are prominent, and for the most part the Canadian wrestlers are awesome.

I like the slight thing they have going on with Edges Spear becoming easy to read, and him struggling to hit it.
That's because Canadian fans are awesome like Pacific Coast, South-West, and Tri-State fans.

I'm not saying other fans aren't awesome. But they tend to be more vocal about who they like and who they don't like.

[Linsolv]

That's because Canadian fans are awesome like Pacific Coast, South-West, and Tri-State fans.

I'm not saying other fans aren't awesome. But they tend to be more vocal about who they like and who they don't like.

You know, I heard that the Canadian fans didn't like HBK, and.. lo and behold he's gone! I think there might be something to this. A conspiracy, perhaps?:D

[TheEdgeOfReason]

That's because Canadian fans are awesome like Pacific Coast, South-West, and Tri-State fans.

I'm not saying other fans aren't awesome. But they tend to be more vocal about who they like and who they don't like.

Yeah, big pops are routine in Canada. Wish they went there more often.

[ampulator]

And big boos. Canadians are smarkier than people in the USA. That leads to a larger tendency to not boo and cheer for the right people.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

And big boos. Canadians are smarkier than people in the USA. That leads to a larger tendency to not boo and cheer for the right people.

It was just plain awesome when Cena took on Edge in Toronto(I think?) and the face/heel roles were pretty much reversed.

[PeterHilton]

And big boos. Canadians are smarkier than people in the USA. That leads to a larger tendency to not boo and cheer for the right people.

I like that too. Fans should boo/cheer who they want.

Dammit..has Cena just decided to do these ridiculous over-the-top promos on a permanent basis? It's like he's become Tim Tebow.

[Dragonmack]

I tuned in just in time to see Bret Hart win the United States title. That was somewhat surprising.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I like that too. Fans should boo/cheer who they want.

Dammit..has Cena just decided to do these ridiculous over-the-top promos on a permanent basis? It's like he's become Tim Tebow.

LMAO I was just about to say that. He needs to add more God into his promos though. Like he could thank God that he can still wrestle or something:p

[Linsolv]

Just started this week's RAW -- normally, I leave that off until tomorrow afternoon, but you folks seem to be enjoying it enough that I jumped on.

No Danielson?

(Just got done with the opening segment, btw. Jericho walks off with his little smirk. Almost like he was saying to himself "... Nailed it!")

[fatallylost]

Zack Ryder and Evan Bourne in a match 2 weeks in a row? There goes the multi-verse!

[Linsolv]

Have any of these guys SEEN a real fight?

There's guys in boxing, get counted out after being on their knees for the 2 count. Might be an exaggeration, but I'm in the middle of the Edge/Christian match, and it's silly that he's on the ground, completely unable to move until the count of 9, when he leaps into the ring like a spry young thing.

[ampulator]

Zack Ryder and Evan Bourne in a match 2 weeks in a row? There goes the multi-verse!
The universes explodes.