The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[hellshock70]

Forget that, isn't this the same guy that was once raped by Heidenreich?

Still, a great segment. I loved when Bryan punched Miz. I loved the fact that everything Cole said was true, and Bryan's face showed he knew it. It doesn't seem so much like a heel turn anymore, though I'd still love to see him join SES eventually.

Surprised it's ending next week, and kind of sad. This week was the first time I actually looked forward to the show since about the second episode.

Once again, I cannot get enough of Jericho at ringside. Screaming at the announcers to talk about Barrett, it's all great. By the way, WTF happened to Barrett getting his own entrance theme after winning that competition two months ago? And it would have been nice to get some kind of explanation for Carlito being gone.

Carlito was found unfit to perform due to painkillers. He refused to get help which WWE pays for and was fired for it. He can return once he gets clean.

Due to this event the tag-team (Rikishi's twin sons managed by Sarona Snuka from G-Rilla) that attacked the Hart Dynasty was brought in to replace the Colons.

Also, an interesting side note: The names of all 8 NXT rookies were trademarked the other day by the WWE.

[PeterHilton]

Carlito was found unfit to perform due to painkillers. He refused to get help which WWE pays for and was fired for it. He can return once he gets clean.

That's been discussed. I believe he meant an on-screen reason. :)

[Linsolv]

Also, an interesting side note: The names of all 8 NXT rookies were trademarked the other day by the WWE.

Yeh... It seems to me that the fact that they're taking so long with Barrett's theme is a tacit admission that either he's going to win, or it's irrelevant because he'll be coming over to the main shows after either way.

[hellshock70]

That's been discussed. I believe he meant an on-screen reason. :)

They probably won't give a reason on air. For over thirty years guys have disappeared with no explanation and sometimes they would just pop up on another program. At the same time that was before no-compete clauses but I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to say anything.

[ampulator]

Who are these mysterious IWC I hear about all the time? Is there some executive board that officiates over all internet wrestling message board declaring a set of demands? Anyway I decided to ask since it sounds like you pretty much know what they wanted and with you know most likely millions being in this category around the world I figured you'd have to be a pretty knowledgeable guy to speak for all of them.
Oh, I'm Chairman, and your the CEO. Have you already forgotten?

In any case, it's not so mysterious as you think. We certainly don't like all the same things, but when it comes to DISlikes, it's pretty uniform more than one thinks. That's the conclusion I get since everyone complains nearly about the same thing (which includes me) but can't really agree on what should be done (which is why WWE does what they want anyway when it comes to regards to our needs. They don't necessarily see if we have any unified vision, which means there isn't much to cater to).

[hellshock70]

Yeh... It seems to me that the fact that they're taking so long with Barrett's theme is a tacit admission that either he's going to win, or it's irrelevant because he'll be coming over to the main shows after either way.

Kind of like Tough Enough and the Diva Searches. Sometimes they added a few people from the shows that didn't win.

BTW, have any of you found out the reason Kofi Kingston and R-Truth are now champs?

[PeterHilton]

That's the conclusion I get since everyone complains nearly about the same thing (which includes me) but can't really agree on what should be done (which is why WWE does what they want anyway when it comes to regards to our needs. They don't necessarily see if we have any unified vision, which means there isn't much to cater to).

Ummmm...what?

The WWE doesn't do or care about what the net fans want because they make up a small fraction of the overall viewing audience. Wrestling nerds watch regardless so they cater to the mainstream because that's what drives revenue.

[PeterHilton]

Kind of like Tough Enough and the Diva Searches. Sometimes they added a few people from the shows that didn't win.

BTW, have any of you found out the reason Kofi Kingston and R-Truth are now champs?

I haven't heard anything specific.

[LoganRodzen]

Kind of like Tough Enough and the Diva Searches. Sometimes they added a few people from the shows that didn't win.

BTW, have any of you found out the reason Kofi Kingston and R-Truth are now champs?

Are you talking about the stories of WWE wanting to have a major African-American star?

[Comradebot]

Are you talking about the stories of WWE wanting to have a major African-American star?

Kofi isn't American.

[hellshock70]

Are you talking about the stories of WWE wanting to have a major African-American star?

Yep, that's it and apparently why R-Truth and Kofi Kingston won titles Sunday. Supposedly MVP, Shad and JTG are being looked at and the possibility that Shelton Benjamin could return has came up too.

From my source:

- Kofi Kingston won the WWE Intercontinental Title on Sunday and R-Truth won the WWE United States Title last night largely because of the company directive to find a new Black star.

[BHK1978]

Yep, that's it and apparently why R-Truth and Kofi Kingston won titles Sunday. Supposedly MVP, Shad and JTG are being looked at and the possibility that Shelton Benjamin could return has came up too.

From my source:

- Kofi Kingston won the WWE Intercontinental Title on Sunday and R-Truth won the WWE United States Title last night largely because of the company directive to find a new Black star.

Well the NWA/WCW did it with Ron Simmons so I can see it being true in the WWF.

[Zeel1]

WWE Over The Limit recap (http://www.thewrestlingfan.com/ppvrant.html) by yours truly.

As for the Kingston/Truth situation..I'd kind of rather race not have anything to do with it. They're both deserving champions, in my view. I get the want, but still..

I've always found the whole "We need atleast one!" viewpoint kinda funny. Can never figure out if it's being racist, or just being paranoid that people will think you're racist..

[fatallylost]

Even though it was from a quote, I applaud you saying Black star.

Charlize Theron is African. she ain't black. I'm tired of the "African-American" tag. If you were born here, you're American. Done.

Anyway. I was gonna mention the entrance music challenge win, but, it was said already. It just hit me while watching it. It'd be funny if they debut it next week, but he loses to David "I'm Wearing Beats Cause I iz Cool" Otunga.

[lazorbeak]

Well the NWA/WCW did it with Ron Simmons so I can see it being true in the WWF.

Woo Hoo Bill Watts booking WWE! No more top rope moves, no more faces and heels mingling in the locker rooms! Kofi could be the next JYD or Ron Simmons!!!

[Comradebot]

Even though it was from a quote, I applaud you saying Black star.

Charlize Theron is African. she ain't black. I'm tired of the "African-American" tag. If you were born here, you're American. Done.

Anyway. I was gonna mention the entrance music challenge win, but, it was said already. It just hit me while watching it. It'd be funny if they debut it next week, but he loses to David "I'm Wearing Beats Cause I iz Cool" Otunga.

Tis why I made the point of Kofi not being American. Heck, I made a point about it probably close to a year ago when someone mentioned "all the African-Americans working for NOTBPW (or was it CGC?)". Turns out, there are NO African-Americans working for said Canadian company. Plenty of African-Canadians, however.

I'ver heard people say "the majority of the people living in Kenya are African-American". Seriously. The only time I think the term is appropriate is when talking about folks of African decent who are also American. It is NOT interchangable with identifying a black person.

[PeterHilton]

If anything, it's a marketing tool.

The WWE (and wrestling in general) has to fight this stigma as being entertainment for rednecks and yokels. If you're going to appeal to a wider audience, it pays to have performers who come from a wider variety of backgrounds.

It's why SD had so many hispanic wrestlers on UPN (which skewed to much larger hispanic and black audience). It's why the E has explored bringing in stars from Mexico.

It makes sense. However, I'm sincerely hoping Killings isn't the big star they're going to push..it'd be much nicer to see them use someone that wasn't such an obvious stereotype with such an obvious stereotype look.

[LoganRodzen]

The way I saw it with Kofi is he's from Africa but where does he work and live for the majority of the year? I'd consider him an American. My logic is odd though. :o

[Comradebot]

If anything, it's a marketing tool.

The WWE (and wrestling in general) has to fight this stigma as being entertainment for rednecks and yokels. If you're going to appeal to a wider audience, it pays to have performers who come from a wider variety of backgrounds.

It's why SD had so many hispanic wrestlers on UPN (which skewed to much larger hispanic and black audience). It's why the E has explored bringing in stars from Mexico.

It makes sense. However, I'm sincerely hoping Killings isn't the big star they're going to push..it'd be much nicer to see them use someone that wasn't such an obvious stereotype with such an obvious stereotype look.

Given the choices, I think Kofi is the best potential black star the WWE has on their hands. That said, they've tried to push him recently and I believe nerves got the best of him... but probably nothing time and experience can't fix. But the fact is... I don't particularly like most of the black wrestlers in the WWE today. Some of them aren't bad midcarders, but other than Kofi none of them strike me as incredibly likely stars. Maybe Killings or even JTG with better gimmicks. Of course, I think JTG is too small and is just short on talent to make up for it. And then there's MVP... career midcarder, I'm saying it now. Even if he ditched the super lame catchphrase and horrid ring-gear, he's still just a guy whose pretty good at alot of stuff, but not great enough at anything.

Oh, and none of the NXT guys strike me as super awesome either, but I guess they haven't been around long enough to make any accurate judgements.

But hey, at least Kofi rocks!

[PeterHilton]

Also..according to his various bios...Kofi was born in Ghana and then moved to the US when he was 2 or 3.

Which means at the very least he's got to have some kind of legit citizenship status in the US to be working here.

I'd say he's the very definition of the term African-American. :rolleyes:

[hellshock70]

This is one of those things that can potentially blow-up in your face.

[Comradebot]

The way I saw it with Kofi is he's from Africa but where does he work and live for the majority of the year? I'd consider him an American. My logic is odd though. :o

What about Vladimir Kozlov? Is he no longer Ukranian, but instead American, because he lives and works in America now? (Or is he Russian because that's where the double double E bills him from!)

We could go back and forth with this for awhile, probably...

That said... I have no clue what his official nationality status is and what the man considers himself. However, I do know he's from Africa (Ghana, right?), is a native of (Ghana?), and likely is considered a citizen of it still.

[PeterHilton]

Given the choices, I think Kofi is the best potential black star the WWE has on their hands. That said, they've tried to push him recently and I believe nerves got the best of him... but probably nothing time and experience can't fix. But the fact is... I don't particularly like most of the black wrestlers in the WWE today. Some of them aren't bad midcarders, but other than Kofi none of them strike me as incredibly likely stars. Maybe Killings or even JTG with better gimmicks. Of course, I think JTG is too small and is just short on talent to make up for it. And then there's MVP... career midcarder, I'm saying it now. Even if he ditched the super lame catchphrase and horrid ring-gear, he's still just a guy whose pretty good at alot of stuff, but not great enough at anything.

Oh, and none of the NXT guys strike me as super awesome either, but I guess they haven't been around long enough to make any accurate judgements.

But hey, at least Kofi rocks!

I like MVP because ..if you're going to build a star..he's got the most relatable and realistic gimmick and his real life backstory makes him marketable as a role model. For the kids.

Het him a new finisher and an Under Armour sponsorship and he's set!

[LoganRodzen]

What about Vladimir Kozlov? Is he no longer Ukranian, but instead American, because he lives and works in America now? (Or is he Russian because that's where the double double E bills him from!)

We could go back and forth with this for awhile, probably...

That said... I have no clue what his official nationality status is and what the man considers himself. However, I do know he's from Africa (Ghana, right?), is a native of (Ghana?), and likely is considered a citizen of it still.

I guess I'd consider him Russian-American. ;)

[BHK1978]

Oh, and none of the NXT guys strike me as super awesome either, but I guess they haven't been around long enough to make any accurate judgements.

Why do I think that David Otunga is going to be in for a massive push just to exploit his relationship with Jennifer Hudson.

And I did not know that he was on I Love New York Part 2. I laughed when I saw he was a on that show.

[Comradebot]

I guess I'd consider him Russian-American. ;)

Poor Ukraine...

[LoganRodzen]

Poor Ukraine...

I could go all day. Rey Mysterio is a Mexican-American. Why do you think Jack Swagger is an American-American? :p

[Comradebot]

I could go all day. Rey Mysterio is a Mexican-American. Why do you think Jack Swagger is an American-American? :p

No, he's an ALL American-American.

Get it straight.

[lazorbeak]

Given the choices, I think Kofi is the best potential black star the WWE has on their hands. That said, they've tried to push him recently and I believe nerves got the best of him... but probably nothing time and experience can't fix. But the fact is... I don't particularly like most of the black wrestlers in the WWE today. Some of them aren't bad midcarders, but other than Kofi none of them strike me as incredibly likely stars. Maybe Killings or even JTG with better gimmicks. Of course, I think JTG is too small and is just short on talent to make up for it. And then there's MVP... career midcarder, I'm saying it now. Even if he ditched the super lame catchphrase and horrid ring-gear, he's still just a guy whose pretty good at alot of stuff, but not great enough at anything.

Oh, and none of the NXT guys strike me as super awesome either, but I guess they haven't been around long enough to make any accurate judgements.

But hey, at least Kofi rocks!

I think Ezekiel Jackson could be a Bob Sapp-ish main event monster. I mean, he even kind of looks like Sapp. If he was nearly as charismatic he'd be a slam dunk main eventer. God as much as it hurt WWE to lose Lesnar how much money could a guy like Sapp have made them? The guy was the total package.


I'd say he's the very definition of the term African-American. :rolleyes:

GOTCHA! Don't forget work visas! But seriously I agree: he went to high school here, got a degree here, and lives here. At what point can we call him an American?

[LoganRodzen]

No, he's an ALL American-American.

Get it straight.

So true. :o

[PeterHilton]

I think Ezekiel Jackson could be a Bob Sapp-ish main event monster. I mean, he even kind of looks like Sapp. If he was nearly as charismatic he'd be a slam dunk main eventer. God as much as it hurt WWE to lost Lesnar how much money could a guy like Sapp have made them? The guy was the total package.

Christ..forgot Zeke. Yeah..he's got monster heel push written all over him

If we're really dreaming..maybe Monty Brown comes back to the business for the E and gets the run he deserved in TNA.

[hellshock70]

No, he's an ALL American-American.

Get it straight.

The other day I heard him say he was the All-American American American. LOL

[BHK1978]

Charlize Theron is African. she ain't black. I'm tired of the "African-American" tag. If you were born here, you're American. Done.

I agree with this 100%. My ancestry is Irish, Norwegian, English, and Italian. So what does that make me? Seriously to me there is no such thing as Spanish-Americans, African-Americans, or Irish-Americans. If we were born in this country we are all Americans end of story.

You know who I would love to see in the WWF or TNA, Rampage Jackson. That dude was meant for pro wrestling. Granted he does have a nice little MMA career going and the whole A-Team thing...

[LoganRodzen]

Bobby Lashley was going to be the guy for years to come in WWE. He had to turn into a Brock Lesnar and think he was better than wrestling though. He was getting such a big push back in the day. Anytime you get an opportunity to feud with McMahon like Austin did, you should cherish and make the best of it. Lashley has no idea how big he could have been. I wanted him to win MITB back at WM22 when RVD won it... I was marking out hard for him back then.

[hellshock70]

Just about everyone born here or has been nationalized is some kind of American. Even white people are sometimes (rarely) called Anglo-Americans which is wrong to me in multiple ways.

I think the only people without some kind of "american label" are mixed races. They get dumped in one pre-existing class or another.

BTW, what did the census say under races?

[PeterHilton]

Bobby Lashley was going to be the guy for years to come in WWE. He had to turn into a Brock Lesnar and think he was better than wrestling though. He was getting such a big push back in the day. Anytime you get an opportunity to feud with McMahon like Austin did, you should cherish and make the best of it. Lashley has no idea how big he could have been. I wanted him to win MITB back at WM22 when RVD won it... I was marking out hard for him back then.

He was crap on the mic though. And he had the girl voice. Eventually it would've caught up to him.

[lazorbeak]

Bobby Lashley was going to be the guy for years to come in WWE. He had to turn into a Brock Lesnar and think he was better than wrestling though. He was getting such a big push back in the day. Anytime you get an opportunity to feud with McMahon like Austin did, you should cherish and make the best of it. Lashley has no idea how big he could have been. I wanted him to win MITB back at WM22 when RVD won it... I was marking out hard for him back then.

That's part of why I think Sapp could've been such a big deal: he's got way more charisma than Lashley, plus he would've attracted international audiences from Japan, where he's hugely over, and could've easily gotten over with the casual fans as a stiff, bad-ass monster.

I liked Lashley when I first saw him and figured they would try to make him the next Lesnar but apart from the build he just wasn't quite at the same level in terms of personality or in-ring skill. Maybe he could've gotten there in time, but I guess we'll never know.

But yeah, they certainly pushed the guy. I mean he was in what was basically a main event match at Wrestlemania as Trump's chosen one.

[Comradebot]

Just about everyone born here or has been nationalized is some kind of American. Even white people are sometimes (rarely) called Anglo-Americans which is wrong to me in multiple ways.

I think the only people without some kind of "american label" are mixed races. They get dumped in one pre-existing class or another.

BTW, what did the census say under races?

I have a copy of the form...

White
Black, African American, Negro
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Asian Indian
Chinese
Filipino
Japanese
Korean
Vietnamese
Native Hawaiian
Guamanian or Chamorro
Samoan
Other Asian
Other Pacific Islander
Some other race


Twas editted!

[PeterHilton]

I have a copy of the form...

White
Black, African American, Negro
American Indian or Alaskan Native
Asian Indian
Chinese
Filipino
Japanese
Korean
Vietnamese
Native Hawaiian
Guamanian or Chamorro
Samoan
Other Asian
Other Pacific Islander
Some other race


Twas editted!

Wait..so all hispanics are "other" ? That seems like a bad way to measure such a growing segment of the population.

[Comradebot]

Wait..so all hispanics are "other" ? That seems like a bad way to measure such a growing segment of the population.

No.

For hispanics, you're suppossed to select White (or possibly Black, I know a few) now, along with answering a seperate question of if you're Hispanic, and from what nationality is your Hispanicness.

Like Italians and the Irish before them, Hispanic people are now considered White by the USA.

[hellshock70]

Wait..so all hispanics are "other" ? That seems like a bad way to measure such a growing segment of the population.

The American Indian claim this time can only be made if you have a card that says you are recognized by a tribal nation.

[LoganRodzen]

That's part of why I think Sapp could've been such a big deal: he's got way more charisma than Lashley, plus he would've attracted international audiences from Japan, where he's hugely over, and could've easily gotten over with the casual fans as a stiff, bad-ass monster.

I liked Lashley when I first saw him and figured they would try to make him the next Lesnar but apart from the build he just wasn't quite at the same level in terms of personality or in-ring skill. Maybe he could've gotten there in time, but I guess we'll never know.

But yeah, they certainly pushed the guy. I mean he was in what was basically a main event match at Wrestlemania as Trump's chosen one.

I agree completely. Aside from his big build and overall look he didn't have the complete in-ring skills or the entertainment skills. But I also think that with his age if he had stuck with it and gave it 100% he could have been a huge star. It's disappointing we'll never know because his look just grabbed your attention and made you think, "whoa... whose that guy?"

[BHK1978]

No.

For hispanics, you're suppossed to select White (or possibly Black, I know a few) now, along with answering a seperate question of if you're Hispanic, and from what nationality is your Hispanicness.

Like Italians and the Irish before them, Hispanic people are now considered White by the USA.

Depending on what part of Spain their ancestors came from that would be true. Same goes for the Italians, basically the Northern parts of Spain and Italy were not touched by the Moors therefore the people of those regions have lighter skin color.

[PeterHilton]

No.

For hispanics, you're suppossed to select White (or possibly Black, I know a few) now, along with answering a seperate question of if you're Hispanic, and from what nationality is your Hispanicness.

Like Italians and the Irish before them, Hispanic people are now considered White by the USA.

There's actually some anthropological basis for this (a bit outdated but it's there), I just can't believe they'd do that because of the inherent inaccuracy that will create. Weird.

[fatallylost]

Tis why I made the point of Kofi not being American. Heck, I made a point about it probably close to a year ago when someone mentioned "all the African-Americans working for NOTBPW (or was it CGC?)". Turns out, there are NO African-Americans working for said Canadian company. Plenty of African-Canadians, however.

I'ver heard people say "the majority of the people living in Kenya are African-American". Seriously. The only time I think the term is appropriate is when talking about folks of African decent who are also American. It is NOT interchangable with identifying a black person.

Yeah. I just have a problem with any <insert generic place that race is from> American. Why am I just white? If I'm white, black people are black. If black people are African-American (not counting people who are actually that) then I demand to be called Norwegian-American. It's actually more racist, to me, to call me white, when the news tip-toes around other races.

My favorite was a news report of a place that had been robbed by an African-American, and a white man.

I could go all day. Rey Mysterio is a Mexican-American. Why do you think Jack Swagger is an American-American? :p

No, he's an ALL American-American.

Get it straight.

That's All American American American American.

[PeterHilton]

Depending on what part of Spain their ancestors came from that would be true. Same goes for the Italians, basically the Northern parts of Spain and Italy were not touched by the Moors therefore the people of those regions have lighter skin color.

Cmon now...how many hispanics in America are from a part of the world where their ancestors are purely Spanish? None in my family, that's for damn sure.. :D

[Comradebot]

There's actually some anthropological basis for this (a bit outdated but it's there), I just can't believe they'd do that because of the inherent inaccuracy that will create. Weird.

No, think about it...

Some folks don't won't white folks to NOT be the majority in America. ;)

[BHK1978]

Cmon now...how many hispanics in America are from a part of the world where their ancestors are purely Spanish? None in my family, that's for damn sure.. :D

Yeah you are right but the arguement could still be made. Like I said before, I am considered Irish but I am a mutt having more nationalities in my blood than the UN.:D

No, think about it...

Some folks don't won't white folks to NOT be the majority in America. ;)

That is very true statement.

[hellshock70]

No, think about it...

Some folks don't won't white folks to NOT be the majority in America. ;)

They would still be the majority even if they were broke down.

America doesn't view race and ethnicity the same way as the rest of the world though.

[Comradebot]

You know, I almost forgot about Ezekiel Jackson... and you know what? I've always liked the guy. Could be a HUGE monster heel if the WWE ever actually put some effort into it. That said, after they screwed up booking Kozlov (and The Big Show on a weekly basis), I don't think the WWE knows HOW to push a monster anymore.

That said, THIS is all the evidence I need as to why a certain someone SHOULD be the top black superstar in wrestling today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2bxEKzKEI

[hellshock70]

You know, I almost forgot about Ezekiel Jackson... and you know what? I've always liked the guy. Could be a HUGE monster heel if the WWE ever actually put some effort into it. That said, after they screwed up booking Kozlov (and The Big Show on a weekly basis), I don't think the WWE knows HOW to push a monster anymore.

That said, THIS is all the evidence I need as to why a certain someone SHOULD be the top black superstar in wrestling today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2bxEKzKEI

btw, c-bot! have you checked your pm's? :D

Yep, they could have done a lot more with him. I liked his last gimmick.

[Comradebot]

btw, c-bot! have you checked your pm's? :D

OH, yeah, I'll reply to that... hehe... been distracted.

[Genadi]

That's part of why I think Sapp could've been such a big deal...

Agreed, first time I saw footage of him in MMA in Japan my jaw dropped. If WCW didn't self destruct we could've seen him tear it up there.

[Moe Hunter]

Guamanian or Chamorro


As in like, people from Guam? Either way...

a) Awesome word. I'm going to have to start using it!
b) Are Guamanians really that common in America?

[hellshock70]

As in like, people from Guam? Either way...

a) Awesome word. I'm going to have to start using it!
b) Are Guamanians really that common in America?

In Guam as far as I know. LOL

If I've ever encountered someone from Guam then I never even knew it. :D

There can't be too many as the island is only 212 square miles making it less then half the size of the county I live in and there has to be enough room for tourists to vacation since that is their main source of income.

[Linsolv]

I like MVP because ..if you're going to build a star..he's got the most relatable and realistic gimmick and his real life backstory makes him marketable as a role model. For the kids.

Het him a new finisher and an Under Armour sponsorship and he's set!

I know, this happened like forever ago, but I hate MVP. First, his finisher is completely unconvincing, and leaves me wondering why doing a "ballin" motion should make a relatively standard elbow SO devastating. And also why the other person doesn't recover during the million years it takes for MVP to run around like a retard and then throw an imaginary ball. At least when Cena does it, it's clearly separated into "taunt, then finisher."

Secondly, he's pretty much only a bunch of black stereotypes. His only marketable traits are that he likes basketball and that he was in prison? Really? That'd be like if you brought over someone from NJPW and gave them the gimmick that they were only good at math, and couldn't please a woman in bed.

(Also, I just read Zeel1's recap, and I realised -- what, was Over the Limit like, "face goes over heel" night? The only match the face didn't win was Orton/Edge and that's because the face dislocated his shoulder while he was doing a darned taunt!)

[CQI13]

Same reason why few people ever got up during the People's Elbow or any other ridiculous finisher.

[Self]

There was a point where MVP could have been a top star, but he's not there now. Not to say he can't fight and claw his way back to megastar potential, but barring a Punk/Batista/Jericho level character reinvention, he's been midcard too long. He's stale.

His finisher is one of the worst moves ever invented (although he recently stole Shelton's Pay Dirt Downward Spiral thing) but I like the ballin' elbow. I don't think the taunt is supposed to make it more devastating, it's just a fun little taunt to get the crowd participating and add some flair to a match.

[MrOnu]

I know, this happened like forever ago, but I hate MVP. First, his finisher is completely unconvincing, and leaves me wondering why doing a "ballin" motion should make a relatively standard elbow SO devastating. And also why the other person doesn't recover during the million years it takes for MVP to run around like a retard and then throw an imaginary ball. At least when Cena does it, it's clearly separated into "taunt, then finisher."

Isn't the Playmaker his finisher though ? Not that he won anything meaningful lately and needed a finisher...

[PeterHilton]

I know, this happened like forever ago, but I hate MVP. First, his finisher is completely unconvincing, and leaves me wondering why doing a "ballin" motion should make a relatively standard elbow SO devastating. And also why the other person doesn't recover during the million years it takes for MVP to run around like a retard and then throw an imaginary ball. At least when Cena does it, it's clearly separated into "taunt, then finisher."

WTF? People's Elbow...?

Secondly, he's pretty much only a bunch of black stereotypes. His only marketable traits are that he likes basketball and that he was in prison? Really? That'd be like if you brought over someone from NJPW and gave them the gimmick that they were only good at math, and couldn't please a woman in bed.

Don't take this the wrong way..but you sound like you might be a wee bit out of touch with pop culture here. Kind of dorky, actually.

He's playing off the archetype of today's athlete. He's got the bodysuit which is supposed to be like the Under Aarmour/Nike work out gear. He use to rock the eye black and the doo rag and the breath-right strip. He came out under the inflatable entranceway like in football. Did a big dance at the top of the ramp..had gold..an agent...talked about being a high priced free agent.

Also..he doesn't "like basketball"..he's mimmicking the "ballin" move that got red-hot because of the Jim Jones song of the same name that came out a few years ago. That song was all over the goddamned place and blew up so big that pro athletes started doing the move.

Here's the NY Giants during their Super Bowl year:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-enSSCM8qDs

He was like the WWE's spin on Ray Lewis. Not only was it a cool gimmick, but it was original and current. First time in a long time where the E booked a believable ethnic character.

(and going to jail at 16 is a marketable trait if you can show that he turned his life around, changed his ways, and made something of himself. which he has.)

[-laz-]

the miz fights like a girl i have photographic proof :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/-Laz-/mizisagirl.jpg

[Linsolv]

I suppose I could see that argument; I did see people "ballin" all around, but since it quickly was adjusted so that one shouted "Kobe" instead, and it was happening around the time the Pistons (lol, Detroit. I live right by there!) were winning the playoffs, it made sense to assume they were basketball fans. *shrug!*

My point is, he doesn't have any notable traits that aren't a stereotype, except that he's a wrestler which doesn't really count in my book.

[ampulator]

You know, I almost forgot about Ezekiel Jackson... and you know what? I've always liked the guy. Could be a HUGE monster heel if the WWE ever actually put some effort into it. That said, after they screwed up booking Kozlov (and The Big Show on a weekly basis), I don't think the WWE knows HOW to push a monster anymore.

That said, THIS is all the evidence I need as to why a certain someone SHOULD be the top black superstar in wrestling today:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gm2bxEKzKEI
Correction: WWE doesn't really know to push MOST workers today, because they are WRITERS, not BOOKERS.

[PeterHilton]

My point is, he doesn't have any notable traits that aren't a stereotype, except that he's a wrestler which doesn't really count in my book.

Honestly, I can't agree with you.

You could argue that most of the guys on the roster are playing 'stereotypes' of some sort; that kind of simple character is necessary. it's a shortcut for telling stories....99% of that roster has very little depth to their character.

And - again - at least it was a stereotypical character that the E got right. It's authentic.

I don't care that The Truth is playing a rapper. that doesn't bug me. It bugs me that he's wearing a hairstyle and doing dance moves that are like 15 years out of style...he looks like he stepped out of a video form the new jack swing era.

And I don't understand how talking about his real-life past is a stereotype. That's what really happened to him. The fact that it's such a positive end is awesome. Most kids who end up in jail by 16 spend the rest of their lives in the system. He's not. Good for him.

In the end, Self is probably right and his time passed him by. But MVP was/is a GREAT character (with a ****ty finisher- The Playmaker) that wasn't given the push he deserved.

[Linsolv]

I find that heels tend to play stereotypes straight.

Punk - That is indeed the Straight Edge stereotype, although the **** symbolism in the last promo or two (with the "heil" salute) is a new twist. As a face, he plays a more honest, less stereotypical character.

Regal - Again, stereotype.

Jericho, Miz -- everyone except MAYBE Edge, that I can think of off the top of my head.

On the other hand, (successful) faces tend to have more "unique" gimmicks that still tend to be simple and easy to digest.



Truth -- whose look I love, by the way, I'd love to seem him repackaged with a more subtle character -- seems to be an exception.

But as for faces that are simple but not normal stereotypes:

Big Show. His stereotype would be, hey, he's big. He must be a bully. Hey, he's fat, he must eat a lot. The only one he's dangerously close to is "hey, he's from the south, he must not be that bright."

Hart Dynasty. Do they actually have characters, though?

Captain Charisma.

Some holes in my argument; Rey Rey, Killings, MVP, Kofi before feuding with Orton...

I might be forgetting some people.

[Hyde Hill]

All I know is Pope is pimpin and has a bigger upside then all these guys lolz. Too bad he is legit injured now and the writing for him has been haphazard. And yeah Monty also had "it" so to speak but he is kinda old now to be pushed bottom to top in the E. Only place he could Main Event or Upper Midcard would be if he returns to TNA.

[The Shape]

On the other hand, (successful) faces tend to have more "unique" gimmicks that still tend to be simple and easy to digest.

Generally they adopt generic babyface gimmick #1, never back down, love the fans, no actual personality (and lose whatever they had when they were a heel).

[Linsolv]

All I know is Pope is pimpin and has a bigger upside then all these guys lolz. Too bad he is legit injured now and the writing for him has been haphazard. And yeah Monty also had "it" so to speak but he is kinda old now to be pushed bottom to top in the E. Only place he could Main Event or Upper Midcard would be if he returns to TNA.

Pope is a good example of not being a stereotype. He does have a character (even though Shape's sorta right. I could go through the list of everyone I can think of in the E and differentiate their personalities, but the broad strokes tend to be pretty similar) and he got over with the fans with a gimmick that was simple and direct but also disregarded his race.

Seriously, though. Ron Killings? With a name like that, they changed it? He's got the coolest last name of all time! Repackage him as an athletic badass and I'd be willing to turn a blind eye to the fact that I know it's R Truth.

[PeterHilton]

On the other hand, (successful) faces tend to have more "unique" gimmicks that still tend to be simple and easy to digest.

:confused:

I have no idea how MVP's character is any simpler than Cena's "never gonna give up/goody two shoes" deal.

Not a critique of Cena. Just a statement about the way characters in the E are written.

Truth -- whose look I love, by the way, I'd love to seem him repackaged with a more subtle character -- seems to be an exception.

He looks like he came from the year 1994. Seriously..it's like watching Coolio wrestle. if he did his braids flat to his head or grew them out Weezy style I'd be all about it...(Because he's fun in the ring and has a really decent moveset) but he looks goofy like that. .

All I know is Pope is pimpin and has a bigger upside then all these guys lolz. Too bad he is legit injured now and the writing for him has been haphazard. And yeah Monty also had "it" so to speak but he is kinda old now to be pushed bottom to top in the E. Only place he could Main Event or Upper Midcard would be if he returns to TNA.

Too right on both counts. Burke would've been the biggest star the E could make. I honesltly think they knew that he was at his best as Black pope and didn't have the guts to run that character out in their PG world.

Generally they adopt generic babyface gimmick #1, never back down, love the fans, no actual personality (and lose whatever they had when they were a heel).

This. "Goody two shoes" is a stereotype.

Pope is a good example of not being a stereotype. He does have a character (even though Shape's sorta right. I could go through the list of everyone I can think of in the E and differentiate their personalities, but the broad strokes tend to be pretty similar) and he got over with the fans with a gimmick that was simple and direct but also disregarded his race.



A street hustler from 'the hood' who wears lots of 'bling' and talks about 'pimpin ho's'? Not a stereotype? Do you know any black people? You might want to run that by them and see if it has any racial overtones.

again..love the character though because it's done well.

But if you don't see how that's a stereotype or think it disregards his race I would strongly disagree.

[cappyboy]

Seriously, though. Ron Killings? With a name like that, they changed it? He's got the coolest last name of all time! Repackage him as an athletic badass and I'd be willing to turn a blind eye to the fact that I know it's R Truth.

Dude, think about this though. Ricky and Vic Steamboat were born Richard and Victor BLOOD. And they ended up getting name changed prior to the era of political correctness. If they can lose such a cool last name to the business back then, why SHOULD Killings be known by his in this much more sensitive day and time?

[Linsolv]

A street hustler from 'the hood' who wears lots of 'bling' and talks about 'pimpin ho's'? Not a stereotype? Do you know any black people? You might want to run that by them and see if it has any racial overtones.

again..love the character though because it's done well.

But if you don't see how that's a stereotype or think it disregards his race I would strongly disagree.

For the record, I always took that as a slant on his gimmick, and not as much the core of it. But I can see where I might have been mistaken. Or probably was.

[PeterHilton]

For the record, I always took that as a slant on his gimmick, and not as much the core of it. But I can see where I might have been mistaken. Or probably was.

No. You're right. But that's why it's well done.

He's not playing the ridiculous fur coat wearing, purple suit having, giant hat with a feather in it pimp from a 70s blaxploitation film.

He's paying a pimp. A hustler. But more like the kind of guy you'd see outside a really nice club in Manhattan. Or in the lobby of the hotel where the visiting sports team is staying.

[Stennick]

For the record, I always took that as a slant on his gimmick, and not as much the core of it. But I can see where I might have been mistaken. Or probably was.

If that is a slant on Popes gimmick than any "racial overtones" that MVP had were slants as well. Like Peter said his gimmick was he was a high level athlete thus his name "MVP". His gimmick was great, free agency, everything about that character was original and he was on fire back in 2006.

Wrestling has always been about stereotypes. Italians, Russians, Asians, Samoans, Blacks, Brits, when you think about the broad scope of things all of these people are usually sterotyped and have simple gimmicks.

Lately I've noticed that on these boards when someone doesn't seem to like a wrestler they say he's "not talented, or he's boring, or his character doesn't work" usually their wrong and the guy is talented, he's entertaining and he appeals to come audience with their character just not them.

For me I don't like Randy Orton. The guy is from St. Louis, he's my age, he lives within 20 miles of me, his a third generation superstar he's had some entertaining gimmicks but I just find the guy isn't what I like. That being said I'm not going to say he has a simple gimmick or because he's white and has anger problems thats a racial overtone or some non sense.

Joe is another guy I don't get. He's passionate, he's paid his dues, but I just can't get into the guys in ring style or character. I know others do but I don't. That being said I'm not going to say "Joe has average charisma and the only thing he can do is work stiff". Because that wouldn't be accurate so instead of saying things like that I just say "I'm not a fan of the guy".

Instead we come in here and we make these excuses on why we don't like these guys and most of the time the argument falls flat and it makes us look like a teenager who's unable to look at both sides of the coin. Or even worse it makes us look like a blind mark who likes a certain style and instead of coming out and admitting it they make excuses why guys who don't fit that style suck.

[crownsy]

If that is a slant on Popes gimmick than any "racial overtones" that MVP had were slants as well. Like Peter said his gimmick was he was a high level athlete thus his name "MVP". His gimmick was great, free agency, everything about that character was original and he was on fire back in 2006.

Wrestling has always been about stereotypes. Italians, Russians, Asians, Samoans, Blacks, Brits, when you think about the broad scope of things all of these people are usually sterotyped and have simple gimmicks.

Lately I've noticed that on these boards when someone doesn't seem to like a wrestler they say he's "not talented, or he's boring, or his character doesn't work" usually their wrong and the guy is talented, he's entertaining and he appeals to come audience with their character just not them.

For me I don't like Randy Orton. The guy is from St. Louis, he's my age, he lives within 20 miles of me, his a third generation superstar he's had some entertaining gimmicks but I just find the guy isn't what I like. That being said I'm not going to say he has a simple gimmick or because he's white and has anger problems thats a racial overtone or some non sense.

Joe is another guy I don't get. He's passionate, he's paid his dues, but I just can't get into the guys in ring style or character. I know others do but I don't. That being said I'm not going to say "Joe has average charisma and the only thing he can do is work stiff". Because that wouldn't be accurate so instead of saying things like that I just say "I'm not a fan of the guy".

Instead we come in here and we make these excuses on why we don't like these guys and most of the time the argument falls flat and it makes us look like a teenager who's unable to look at both sides of the coin. Or even worse it makes us look like a blind mark who likes a certain style and instead of coming out and admitting it they make excuses why guys who don't fit that style suck.

/signed, exactly how i feel at times.

IT seems like people decide they don't like a character, then invent reasons as to why anyone who IS a fan of that person doesn't get it, rather than being honest and just saying

"I don't like the guy, I know he's a good worker, but he doesn't do it for me."

Great post Sten

[PeterHilton]

**waits for cappyboy's next Ken Anderson tirade**

[Comradebot]

**waits for cappyboy's next Ken Anderson tirade**

Mr. Anderson is the man.

That is all.

[Linsolv]

For me I don't like Randy Orton. The guy is from St. Louis, he's my age, he lives within 20 miles of me, his a third generation superstar he's had some entertaining gimmicks but I just find the guy isn't what I like. That being said I'm not going to say he has a simple gimmick or because he's white and has anger problems thats a racial overtone or some non sense.

For me, Randy Orton has ALWAYS been my favorite wrestler in the E.

Is it because he's so good on the mic? No. He pretty much says normal stuff.

Is it because he's so good in the ring? No. He's not that great.

It's in fact because of his voice. When I was getting into the WWE, I was just about 4 months from graduating high school; I'd been really big into choir after the girlie got me into it, and was pretty damn good at it if I do say so myself.

So I turn on RAW, and there's this dude with a voice like butter and lower than a punch to the balls. Needless to say that I am kinda shallow sometimes.

[PeterHilton]

So I turn on RAW, and there's this dude with a voice like butter and lower than a punch to the balls. Needless to say that I am kinda shallow sometimes.

I feel strangely uncomfortable now. :(

[Stennick]

*listens to the silence after Linslov's post, awkwardly glancing around*

:D

[Linsolv]

What? It's not often you come across a charismatic bass. It's not. We're a fundamentally un-interesting group.

Somehow, though, I did see this coming.

In other things I've been somewhat reluctant to admit, the Boogeyman was the first person to catch my interest in wrestling.



Seriously, though, you guys don't think Jericho's voice makes him sound like a pip-squeak little guy? Orton's voice sounds strong.

[cappyboy]

**waits for cappyboy's next Ken Anderson tirade**

Ask and ye shall receive. Well, sort of. I don't deny that my head completely melts when I try to figure out why the guy has the following he does. When I watch him I see a guy who should be champion of USPW and no more. He's decent enough in the ring but nothing special. He's a talented mimic with a knack for reproducing the best bits of other more memorable talent. He just doesn't seem like he can take ownership of anything for himself.

But here's the most generous thing I can say to mitigate all my "tirades" as Brother Hilton put it. I got to Anderson late in the ball game. Much of his following was already cemented by the time I got to see him. As such, I recognize I am mostly a lone voice crying out in the wilderness.

But you know what really makes it bad for me? The part of the whole Anderson experience that probably makes my venom sound particularly venomous? I've TRIED to get Anderson. I've tried to look past the pieces of Rock, rips of Road Dogg and the uncanny Holly family resemblence to get a sense of Anderson as his own character. And every time I do, I've come up empty. I try to find what the part of "MISTAAAA ANDERSON" that feels like it could only come from Ken and I don't see it. I'm so clueless as to what he's got that it drives me up the wall. It's not that I WANT to hate the guy. It's the fact I want to like the guy since everyone else does and CAN'T.

Problem is he gives me no reason to and that hurts my ability to enjoy whatever show he's on. Because it keeps me from enjoying what's meant to be a highly important match. There's no move, no mannerism, no inflection that seems to be HIS contribution to the character. I wish there were. That way i could stopping trying to analyze Anderson and just experience him like everyone else does.

[BurningHamster]

the miz fights like a girl i have photographic proof :D

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v194/-Laz-/mizisagirl.jpg

Haha awesome. Loved that whole segment and the crowd was eating it up. realistic confrontation with decent verbal stabs at each person's shortcomings leading to scrappy, messy violence that is broken up before a good conclusion = people wanting to watch more of that.

As a sidenote, in ring Heath Slater was the best worker on NXT this week by far. People who keep dissing him for being boring aren't keeping their eyes open for the subtle magic he is working. Dude was doing a freaking broomstick job at the end making Otunga not look like a sack of dried monkey genitals weighed down by life in the shadow of the mediocrity and obesity of his Z-list ladyfriend. Otunga still didn't look capable but Slater brought enough athleticism and smoothness to almost make up for it.

Michael Cole looked evil and almost younger McMahon like in the video package.

Also I'm kind of with Cappyboy on the Anderson thing. I never got the love for him.

[Stennick]

I got no problem with you not liking the guy. As I said I don't see anything special about Orton or Joe. Anderson isn't my #1 guy either but I do enjoy is mic work. However rather than saying that these guys are missing something as long as people that don't like clearly talented guys say "I just dont like him" and they don't make excuses that are blinded by markish opinions then its all good.

You've said that its something your not getting which is better than saying the guy isn't talented or something of that nature.

If everyone liked the same guys there would be no talk of wrestling on the internet. Its just the ability to accept that someone is talented even if you don't like them that puts everyone into different camps.

[hellshock70]

I don't care that The Truth is playing a rapper. that doesn't bug me. It bugs me that he's wearing a hairstyle and doing dance moves that are like 15 years out of style...he looks like he stepped out of a video form the new jack swing era.

On this, Ron Killings is 38 years old. So he grew up on the New Jack swing era. He's by far the oldest of the bunch and is going with the style he knows.

[Hyde Hill]

If that is a slant on Popes gimmick than any "racial overtones" that MVP had were slants as well. Like Peter said his gimmick was he was a high level athlete thus his name "MVP". His gimmick was great, free agency, everything about that character was original and he was on fire back in 2006.

Wrestling has always been about stereotypes. Italians, Russians, Asians, Samoans, Blacks, Brits, when you think about the broad scope of things all of these people are usually sterotyped and have simple gimmicks.

Lately I've noticed that on these boards when someone doesn't seem to like a wrestler they say he's "not talented, or he's boring, or his character doesn't work" usually their wrong and the guy is talented, he's entertaining and he appeals to come audience with their character just not them.

For me I don't like Randy Orton. The guy is from St. Louis, he's my age, he lives within 20 miles of me, his a third generation superstar he's had some entertaining gimmicks but I just find the guy isn't what I like. That being said I'm not going to say he has a simple gimmick or because he's white and has anger problems thats a racial overtone or some non sense.

Joe is another guy I don't get. He's passionate, he's paid his dues, but I just can't get into the guys in ring style or character. I know others do but I don't. That being said I'm not going to say "Joe has average charisma and the only thing he can do is work stiff". Because that wouldn't be accurate so instead of saying things like that I just say "I'm not a fan of the guy".

Instead we come in here and we make these excuses on why we don't like these guys and most of the time the argument falls flat and it makes us look like a teenager who's unable to look at both sides of the coin. Or even worse it makes us look like a blind mark who likes a certain style and instead of coming out and admitting it they make excuses why guys who don't fit that style suck.

Well that isn't as prevalent on these boards as it is in most of the IWC from what I have seen. One of the reasons why I mainly post here. And generally cappy makes it quite clear why HE hates Anderson, not so much that he is just no good for everybody.

[MichiganHero]

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w140/thirteenthghetto/batistahating.jpg

Someone hates Batista.

[Hyde Hill]

What? It's not often you come across a charismatic bass. It's not. We're a fundamentally un-interesting group.

Somehow, though, I did see this coming.

In other things I've been somewhat reluctant to admit, the Boogeyman was the first person to catch my interest in wrestling.



Seriously, though, you guys don't think Jericho's voice makes him sound like a pip-squeak little guy? Orton's voice sounds strong.

Actually I do not find Orton's bass that heavy or smooth. But what do I know.

[hellshock70]

http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w140/thirteenthghetto/batistahating.jpg

Someone hates Batista.

I think I mentioned this a month or so ago in one thread or another. And they're worried about Edge now too.

[Hyde Hill]

On Anderson here is his Sacrifice Promo for those who missed it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xddqtj_mr-anderson-promo-sacrifice-10_fun

[MichiganHero]

I think I mentioned this a month or so ago in one thread or another. And they're worried about Edge now too.

I was meaning the fact that so many spambots/immature 12 year-olds tried to fit in as many crappy insults as they could in.

[-laz-]

On Anderson here is his Sacrifice Promo for those who missed it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xddqtj_mr-anderson-promo-sacrifice-10_fun
"Thanks *******s" loved that promo was the highlight of the ppv for me

[Hyde Hill]

I think I mentioned this a month or so ago in one thread or another. And they're worried about Edge now too.

Now Edge would be a welcome addition to TNA. Tista nope. Same as Goldberg only works if he is winning a lot and is kept strong so you can not job him out. Plus he would cost a lot of money. Still Hogan loves big guys and dumb decisions so expect to see him soon *Groan*.

[hellshock70]

I was meaning the fact that so many spambots/immature 12 year-olds tried to fit in as many crappy insults as they could in.

That happens in a lot of places including forums. LOL

[Linsolv]

Well, that video wasn't actually that impressive to me. It showed me that Anderson is REALLY over, but I was... nonplussed by his antics.

[hellshock70]

Now Edge would be a welcome addition to TNA. Tista nope. Same as Goldberg only works if he is winning a lot and is kept strong so you can not job him out. Plus he would cost a lot of money. Still Hogan loves big guys and dumb decisions so expect to see him soon *Groan*.

The only reason they're even worried about him now is because of Hogan. And as most of you probably know Hogan was Edge's hero growing up. Then again he could use it to get a better contract with WWE.

[Hyde Hill]

Well, that video wasn't actually that impressive to me. It showed me that Anderson is REALLY over, but I was... nonplussed by his antics.

Thing is he wasn't really "over" before the promo. When he came in he even got overrated chants etc. Crowd really responded to this.

[Charasmatic Enigma]

On Anderson here is his Sacrifice Promo for those who missed it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xddqtj_mr-anderson-promo-sacrifice-10_fun

Thanks for putting that up, that was a great promo from Mr Anderson

[CQI13]

HAHAHA, that was hilarious to me. Wow, I guess there is stuff I'm missing. LOL

[hellshock70]

Here is a funky looking pic of Bryan Danielson

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Count_Danielson.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Count_Danielson.jpg

[Linsolv]

Nice find, Tony the Tiger.

[dvdWarrior]

On Anderson here is his Sacrifice Promo for those who missed it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xddqtj_mr-anderson-promo-sacrifice-10_fun


Dang, Anderson is dangerously close to becoming The MAN. Maybe it's just me, but he seems head and shoulders above the rest of the TNA crowd.

Fantabulous promo there.

:eek:

[Stennick]

I don't know what more people want out of the guy in a promo but that promo hit on all cylinders so yeah I'll leave that for others to figure out.

[Stennick]

Here is a funky looking pic of Bryan Danielson

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Count_Danielson.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Count_Danielson.jpg

Is there a reason for the strange picture of Danielson other than it being a strange picture of Danielson?

[brashleyholland]

On Anderson here is his Sacrifice Promo for those who missed it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xddqtj_mr-anderson-promo-sacrifice-10_fun

I may not know as much, or have seen as much pro wrestling as most people here....but was absolutely one of the best promo's I've ever seen. I remember legitimately lol'ing when I saw it at the time, something I don't think I've done to wrestling since I was about 14.

The best part for me was the fan's reaction...people applauded at the end of the promo. During the match there were tons of 'a-hole' related chants. That's the kind of organic reaction you don't get from stuffing something down peoples throats. When you get gold like that, you have to run with it.

My frame of reference for what's happening with Anderson is the Austin thing from way back when. My memory is sketchy, but I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong :p As I remember it, there was no 'face turn' as such, he basically acted like a heel and people loved it. Even though he eventually became the good guy, if memory serves he was doing heel-ish stuff for quite a while. I hope TNA let Anderson ride with what he's doing...it's already working, so IMO, jumping the gun and visibly turning him in a short space of time would be a bad thing.

It's be like Austin doing the '3:16' promo then coming out slapping fan's hands and cracking jokes the very next week.

[hellshock70]

Is there a reason for the strange picture of Danielson other than it being a strange picture of Danielson?

Just one of those strange personas floating around the indies. :p

In the indies some are strange, some are cool, a select few are both. I believe this is a category one persona. LOL

[hellshock70]

I may not know as much, or have seen as much pro wrestling as most people here....but was absolutely one of the best promo's I've ever seen. I remember legitimately lol'ing when I saw it at the time, something I don't think I've done to wrestling since I was about 14.

The best part for me was the fan's reaction...people applauded at the end of the promo. During the match there were tons of 'a-hole' related chants. That's the kind of organic reaction you don't get from stuffing something down peoples throats. When you get gold like that, you have to run with it.

My frame of reference for what's happening with Anderson is the Austin thing from way back when. My memory is sketchy, but I'm sure people will correct me if I'm wrong :p As I remember it, there was no 'face turn' as such, he basically acted like a heel and people loved it. Even though he eventually became the good guy, if memory serves he was doing heel-ish stuff for quite a while. I hope TNA let Anderson ride with what he's doing...it's already working, so IMO, jumping the gun and visibly turning him in a short space of time would be a bad thing.

It's be like Austin doing the '3:16' promo then coming out slapping fan's hands and cracking jokes the very next week.

Weird thing about being face for me was I CHEATED MORE than when I was heel. LOL

[cappyboy]

On Anderson here is his Sacrifice Promo for those who missed it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xddqtj_mr-anderson-promo-sacrifice-10_fun

"Thanks *******s" loved that promo was the highlight of the ppv for me

I tend to agree with Brother Linsolv's reaction here. But I'll give Anderson credit for one thing. Jeff Hardy and his Creatures of the Night deserved every disparaging word Anderson had to say about them. On that level, this is probably one of my favorite Anderson promos. Take that for what it's worth.

[Candyman]

Is there a reason for the strange picture of Danielson other than it being a strange picture of Danielson?

Is there a reason for this question other than it being a question?

[Stennick]

Is there a reason for this question other than it being a question?

The reason was to obtain an answer. I obtained mine and now you can say the same.

[-laz-]

Here is a funky looking pic of Bryan Danielson

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/20/Count_Danielson.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Count_Danielson.jpg



looks to me like hes trying to perfect his finishing move

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Zhnhq_exYt0/SHgRb8w1f6I/AAAAAAAAAYU/qOC1PNXf_Pk/s400/Crane+Kick+Karate+Kid+Retarded+Defeat.jpg

the dreaded crane kick

[PeterHilton]

On this, Ron Killings is 38 years old. So he grew up on the New Jack swing era. He's by far the oldest of the bunch and is going with the style he knows.

Tough.

I'm 34. I don't run around in British Knights and Guess jean overalls with one strap down.

If you're in entertainment it's your job to adapt.

Or if all else fails, someone in production or the writing team who's turned on a TV in the last decade should tell him he looks dated

[hellshock70]

Tough.

I'm 34. I don't run around in British Knights and Guess jean overalls with one strap down.

If you're in entertainment it's your job to adapt.

Or if all else fails, someone in production or the writing team who's turned on a TV in the last decade should tell him he looks dated

Tough on that too.

Clothes are a lot different then your personal dancing style and musical preference.

[Linsolv]

For the record when I said Truth had a good "look," I was referring to his stature and physique. I don't think I addressed that previously.

[PeterHilton]

On Anderson here is his Sacrifice Promo for those who missed it:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xddqtj_mr-anderson-promo-sacrifice-10_fun

I'm disappointed at you. There's a TNA thread for this *tsk tsk*

Unless....INVASION????

Tough on that too.

Clothes are a lot different then your personal dancing style and musical preference.

I'm criticizing his look. That's my point. He LOOKS dated.

You're a wrestler..you tellin me it's not a fair criticism of a guy who hasn't changed his look since the end of the Attitude Era?

[hellshock70]

For the record when I said Truth had a good "look," I was referring to his stature and physique. I don't think I addressed that previously.

His physique is great. His stature not so much. LOL I meet the man when I used his one of his students last year. My son is 6'1/200 and well built but not cut up and he was taller and looked heavier than R-Truth.

[PeterHilton]

For the record when I said Truth had a good "look," I was referring to his stature and physique. I don't think I addressed that previously.

I agree with this. That's why it bugs me. If he fixed the little details like his hair he'd be set.

[hellshock70]

I'm disappointed at you. There's a TNA thread for this *tsk tsk*

Unless....INVASION????



I'm criticizing his look. That's my point. He LOOKS dated.

You're a wrestler..you tellin me it's not a fair criticism of a guy who hasn't changed his look since the end of the Attitude Era?

I didn't say it wasn't fair criticism. Just that's his personal style and preference. My dad is stuck in the 50's and 60's with music. But that's his style and not mine.

[PeterHilton]

I didn't say it wasn't fair criticism. Just that's his personal style and preference. My dad is stuck in the 50's and 60's with music. But that's his style and not mine.

So is my dad...(in the 70s but still stuck) . ..I guess what I'm saying is that someone in the public eye you have to be more cognizant of that and adjust accordingly.

It's basically his job to be 'cool.' That's part of the gig.

[hellshock70]

I agree with this. That's why it bugs me. If he fixed the little details like his hair he'd be set.

At the same time what if McMahon updated his music to a more current song? Wouldn't fly with someone almost as old as my dad. So he's stuck sort of....

He supposedly retired the Mr. McMahon character at WM 26 so that's really a moot point. But at the same time I can't see someone nearly 40 years old coming out to music that's mainly played by people half his age.

Unless it fits.

[hellshock70]

Here is another way to look at it too.

JTG has an image that caters to the younger Bling Bling/ grill wearing generation while R-Truth caters to the older nearing 40 generation.

They have someone for both ends of their age demographic.

[brashleyholland]

Clothes are a lot different then your personal dancing style and musical preference.

What does Truth's personal dancing style have to do with anything? Someone in WWE is telling a 38-year-old man who can't rap and who's dance moves come from a different generation: "Wear this, dance and do a little rap" Every. Single. Week. He's a guy playing a character on a TV show, right? The point is, somebody should be saying to this guy:

"You look ridiculous, time to stop dancing and rapping".

"But this is how I dance"

"So? Here's the script for next week...You're a White Supremacist now, time to shave the old noggin and be appalling."

Like Peter said, he's an entertainer, it's his job to adapt and perform a role. The guy has potential, but it's like looking into a time-warp whenever he pops up on TV.

[Linsolv]

For the record, Tiger, he doesn't LOOK that old. I wouldn't have known he was 36 except that you guys told me.

[hellshock70]

For the record, Tiger, he doesn't LOOK that old. I wouldn't have known he was 36 except that you guys told me.

Actually, he just turned 38 in January. And he looks bigger on TV. LOL

[hellshock70]

Just got word CM Punk botched a move pretty bad twice. Might be something to look at and talk about after Smackdown friday.

[Stennick]

Yeah I agree he's playing a character on television. As far as McMahon changing his character up via music. McMahon is a legendary character and easily one of the top five most recognizable characters of the last 15 years. So him changing something that is identifiable with him is a lot different than R Truth has has been a mid carder at best his entire career.

He's not appealing to 40 year olds with his "was up" I don't know many 40 year olds that say "was up". Some? Sure but most 40 year olds say "hows it going". So shouldn't his rap being "something in coherant on a live mic....how is going? *dance* hows it going?".

EVERYONE in the WWE is meant to mostly entertain children. John Cena'd dudley do right gimmick is meant for ten year olds that need a real life super man. There is a reason Hogan's character was booked so similar to Cena their the same character (essentially) and their marketed to the same age group.

Killings is no different its not like he even looks like a typical 40 year old from his side of the streets. Luda cut his braids off, Ice Cube got rid of the curls, Ice T cut his hair. All of these men are in entertainment and all of them have switched their look up to appear more modern. So saying that its his generation and its how people his age dress isn't even accurate. Its how his generation dressed 20 years ago. Heck its how I would have dressed 20 years ago when I was in the 8th grade gangsta dancing to Coolio's "gangsta paradise" in my suburban home without a clue what he was talking about. I use to sag my jeans and wear Bugle Boy t shirts. 20 years later I've stopped doing that. Not that Bugle Boy was ever in style but my point has been made.

[PeterHilton]

At the same time what if McMahon updated his music to a more current song? Wouldn't fly with someone almost as old as my dad. So he's stuck sort of....



Ehhhh...that's a fair point.

But how many people would know how old Killings is IRL. They've updated theme songs before. Looks too. If they tweaked it a little and still did the "what's up" thing he'd be fine.

[PeterHilton]

Here is another way to look at it too.

JTG has an image that caters to the younger Bling Bling/ grill wearing generation while R-Truth caters to the older nearing 40 generation.

They have someone for both ends of their age demographic.

I call shenanigans on a hip hop character appealing to that niche "40 year old gangsta demographic" of the WWE audience.

[PeterHilton]

Killings is no different its not like he even looks like a typical 40 year old from his side of the streets. Luda cut his braids off, Ice Cube got rid of the curls, Ice T cut his hair. All of these men are in entertainment and all of them have switched their look up to appear more modern. So saying that its his generation and its how people his age dress isn't even accurate. Its how his generation dressed 20 years ago. Heck its how I would have dressed 20 years ago when I was in the 8th grade gangsta dancing to Coolio's "gangsta paradise" in my suburban home without a clue what he was talking about. I use to sag my jeans and wear Bugle Boy t shirts. 20 years later I've stopped doing that. Not that Bugle Boy was ever in style but my point has been made.

Wolnderfully put.

Although..how awesome would it be to have R Truth show up with a full on Gheri curl out of nowhere?

[hellshock70]

Yeah I agree he's playing a character on television. As far as McMahon changing his character up via music. McMahon is a legendary character and easily one of the top five most recognizable characters of the last 15 years. So him changing something that is identifiable with him is a lot different than R Truth has has been a mid carder at best his entire career.

He's not appealing to 40 year olds with his "was up" I don't know many 40 year olds that say "was up". Some? Sure but most 40 year olds say "hows it going". So shouldn't his rap being "something in coherant on a live mic....how is going? *dance* hows it going?".

EVERYONE in the WWE is meant to mostly entertain children. John Cena'd dudley do right gimmick is meant for ten year olds that need a real life super man. There is a reason Hogan's character was booked so similar to Cena their the same character (essentially) and their marketed to the same age group.

Killings is no different its not like he even looks like a typical 40 year old from his side of the streets. Luda cut his braids off, Ice Cube got rid of the curls, Ice T cut his hair. All of these men are in entertainment and all of them have switched their look up to appear more modern. So saying that its his generation and its how people his age dress isn't even accurate. Its how his generation dressed 20 years ago. Heck its how I would have dressed 20 years ago when I was in the 8th grade gangsta dancing to Coolio's "gangsta paradise" in my suburban home without a clue what he was talking about. I use to sag my jeans and wear Bugle Boy t shirts. 20 years later I've stopped doing that. Not that Bugle Boy was ever in style but my point has been made.

Then it's safe to say you haven't seen the black people a few blocks away from my townhouse saying "s'up", waz up" and a few others phrases and still in their 30's not knowing how to keep their pants off the ground.

[Stennick]

That would be awesome, it'd be even more awesome if he could spit like Cube did while he had said curls....sadly neither is happening :(

[hellshock70]

He can do this again:

http://images.tvrage.com/people/35/104567.jpg

which was after this:

http://www.coliseumwrestlingboxing.com/ron_killings.jpg

[PeterHilton]

Then it's safe to say you haven't seen the black people a few blocks away from my townhouse saying "s'up", waz up" and a few others phrases and still in their 30's not knowing how to keep their pants off the ground.

I know those dudes. :)

i think the point is..how many of them watch wrestling?

I get what you're saying hellshock, but it's a stretch to say there's a specific audience that Truth's look appeal to. More likely, there's not enough people in the WWE audience that are in to hip hop and can tell the difference between what's current now and what was current in 1995.

He has a dated look. Period.

Someone (Truth or a writer or somebody) should update him. Period.

Especially if the goal is - as mentioned - to create a superstar to appeal to the black audience.

[hellshock70]

I know those dudes. :)

i think the point is..how many of them watch wrestling?

I get what you're saying hellshock, but it's a stretch to say there's a specific audience that Truth's look appeal to. More likely, there's not enough people in the WWE audience that are in to hip hop and can tell the difference between what's current now and what was current in 1995.

He has a dated look. Period.

Someone (Truth or a writer or somebody) should update him. Period.

Especially if the goal is - as mentioned - to create a superstar to appeal to the black audience.

Well, you have 5 each with their OWN appearance. So what would you propose to do different and it not be taken from the other 4?

[PeterHilton]

He can do this again:

http://images.tvrage.com/people/35/104567.jpg

which was after this:

http://www.coliseumwrestlingboxing.com/ron_killings.jpg

The first is an improvement.

The second...wow. White denim with airbrush. :rolleyes:

Can someone mail him a current copy of Source magazine. Please.

[PeterHilton]

Well, you have 5 each with their OWN appearance. So what would you propose to do different and it not be taken from the other 4?

Why does it have to be so unique? The audience can't tell black people apart?

There are certainly enough similar looking white guys on the roster.

[hellshock70]

And on another thing.

Most of the writers are white. So that being said, you take a white guy messing with a black guys image and if it doesn't come off as something that African-Americans can identify with? Well then, you have a whole different problem.

And a 80's or 90's rapper, no matter how out of date it is, it is still identifiable as a legit African-American gimmick.

[hellshock70]

Why does it have to be so unique? The audience can't tell black people apart?

There are certainly enough similar looking white guys on the roster.

That way of thinking has severe undertones.

[brashleyholland]

And a 80's or 90's rapper, no matter how out of date it is, it is still identifiable as a legit African-American gimmick.

Still needs a guy who can rap to pull it off...which R Truth can't.

[hellshock70]

Still needs a guy who can rap to pull it off...which R Truth can't.

Tell that to Biz Markey. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6a-AHLRoAw&feature=related

[hellshock70]

Tell that to Biz Markey. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6a-AHLRoAw&feature=related


My wife just said he sounds drunk then she remembered the song and remembered she liked it.

[brashleyholland]

Tell that to Biz Markey. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6a-AHLRoAw&feature=related

Lol! That's almost (but not quite) as good as this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckMvj1piK58

Rapping doesn't start till about 1:15, but the whole thing is worth a watch. I don't know if it makes me happy or sad to be from Manchester.

Best bit:

Covers goin' sick tonight,
I'm like Superman without Kryptonite
Phat as hell without cellulite,
And I look well sick in a UV light!

[PeterHilton]

That way of thinking has severe undertones.

You're the one who implied that the five black members of the roster (which is wrong I believe..I'm pretty sure there's more) needed to have completely separate looks for some reason.

i was asking why is all.

And FYI i'm of mixed hispanic/black heritage with two kids who's mom is black. I'm perfectly comfortable talking about (not to imply I know more about this subject or whatnot..just that I'm comfortable)

And on another thing.

Most of the writers are white. So that being said, you take a white guy messing with a black guys image and if it doesn't come off as something that African-Americans can identify with? Well then, you have a whole different problem.

And a 80's or 90's rapper, no matter how out of date it is, it is still identifiable as a legit African-American gimmick.

He's playing a rapper. not an era specific rapper. imo.

[hellshock70]

Lol! That's almost (but not quite) as good as this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckMvj1piK58

Rapping doesn't start till about 1:15, but the whole thing is worth a watch. I don't know if it makes me happy or sad to be from Manchester.

Best bit:

Covers goin' sick tonight,
I'm like Superman without Kryptonite
Phat as hell without cellulite,
And I look well sick in a UV light!

He cut his hair? Didn't I see him in San Andreas with a "burping the worm" problem?

[hellshock70]

You're the one who implied that the five black members of the roster (which is wrong I believe..I'm pretty sure there's more) needed to have completely separate looks for some reason.

i was asking why is all.

And FYI i'm of mixed hispanic/black heritage with two kids who's mom is black. I'm perfectly comfortable talking about (not to imply I know more about this subject or whatnot..just that I'm comfortable)



He's playing a rapper. not an era specific rapper. imo.

The five black members I mentioned are the 5 they're pushing to get the next black superstar.

As for era specific isn't that your problem with him, that he's not current?

[brashleyholland]

He cut his hair? Didn't I see him in San Andreas with a "burping the worm" problem?

Lol, nah, Macca in San Andreas was played by Sean Ryder, a musical genius and frontman for The Happy Mondays. They were one of the most influential British bands of the last 20 or so years.

The idiots in that vid are The Blackout Krew...who suck :-D

[hellshock70]

Lol, nah, Macca in San Andreas was played by Sean Ryder, a musical genius and frontman for The Happy Mondays. They were one of the most influential British bands of the last 20 or so years.

The idiots in that vid are The Blackout Krew...who suck :-D

Yeah. LOL

For some reason most of the rock acts I'm used to seem to lose their accents when singing. (Scorpions too)

[PeterHilton]

The five black members I mentioned are the 5 they're pushing to get the next black superstar.

As for era specific isn't that your problem with him, that he's not current?

I never saw you mention any 5 roster members specifically so I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to that. My mistake if I missed that post.

And yes. That's my problem. He's playing a rapper ie a CURRENT rapper and he's dated.

If he came out and said" I'm old school and I keep it old school" or whatever then that would be acceptable or at least make more sense.

But he's not. Hence the issue.

His look doesn't match his gimmick. And if you're going to create some breakout black superstar then the gimmick has to feel authentic and I honestly think that any new black viewers who tune in to WWE who also happen to be fans of hip hop are going to look at Truth and say "WTF? when did Treach from Naughty By Nature start wrestling? :rolleyes: "

And they are going to immediately tune out because the WWE clearly has no frickin clue because R Truth as a rapper (a CURRENT rapper) is phony as hell.

[brashleyholland]

For some reason most of the rock acts I'm used to seem to lose their accents when singing. (Scorpions too)

Tyson Schenker (son of Michael Schenker, of Scorpions fame) is a good friend of mine. He once (in true rock star style) trashed my spare room when he was staying over at my place one night. It was 8am and we'd polished off a fair amount of Jaeger to be fair though :D

[LoganRodzen]

I just read through the past few pages and a few things that stuck out to me:
Linsolv is a voice person and the lack of responses after his (revealing) post made me laugh. ;) But seriously, I'm an Orton fan as well. I thought he was the absolute coolest person when he was doing his RNN Reports when he hurt his shoulder in 2002. The Legend Killer gimmick was by far the coolest gimmick WWE had done in the past 10 years.On the discussion of Killings changing up music, attire, or anything... why the heck should or would he? He's getting an incredible (cheap) reaction from every city WWE goes to. The "what's up?" is so easy that a two year old can catch on. He just picked up a championship and WWE is proving that they don't hold anything against workers who have jumped between WWE and TNA multiple times (like Killings has). Whether or not it's a stereotype is irrelevant. Butts are in the seats at their events and when Truth's music hits... those butts are out of their seats chanting, "WHAT'S UP?!"

He's the very definition of a popular midcarder. I wouldn't change a thing about the guy. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[hellshock70]

I never saw you mention any 5 roster members specifically so I have no idea what you're talking about in regards to that. My mistake if I missed that post.

And yes. That's my problem. He's playing a rapper ie a CURRENT rapper and he's dated.

If he came out and said" I'm old school and I keep it old school" or whatever then that would be acceptable or at least make more sense.

But he's not. Hence the issue.

His look doesn't match his gimmick. And if you're going to create some breakout black superstar then the gimmick has to feel authentic and I honestly think that any new black viewers who tune in to WWE who also happen to be fans of hip hop are going to look at Truth and say "WTF? when did Treach from Naughty By Nature start wrestling? :rolleyes: "

And they are going to immediately tune out because the WWE clearly has no frickin clue because R Truth as a rapper (a CURRENT rapper) is phony as hell.

Truth's rapping may not to be everyone's tastes, but there's no doubt about it that he is over. And the thousands who pop when he comes out and 'rap' along with him all buy into it.

[Linsolv]

I just read through the past few pages and a few things that stuck out to me:
Linsolv is a voice person and the lack of responses after his (revealing) post made me laugh. ;) But seriously, I'm an Orton fan as well. I thought he was the absolute coolest person when he was doing his RNN Reports when he hurt his shoulder in 2002. The Legend Killer gimmick was by far the coolest gimmick WWE had done in the past 10 years.

For the record, it's not like, a "thing." I spent 3 years working really hard at improving my voice, and as a result I have a healthy professional respect for people whose voice impresses me.

It'd be like if you spent years working on a degree in carpentry, then you found out that John Cena is a gifted carpenter. You'd like him even though he might not be that great of a worker.

[PeterHilton]

On the discussion of Killings changing up music, attire, or anything... why the heck should or would he? He's getting an incredible (cheap) reaction from every city WWE goes to. The "what's up?" is so easy that a two year old can catch on. He just picked up a championship and WWE is proving that they don't hold anything against workers who have jumped between WWE and TNA multiple times (like Killings has). Whether or not it's a stereotype is irrelevant. Butts are in the seats at their events and when Truth's music hits... those butts are out of their seats chanting, "WHAT'S UP?!"

He's the very definition of a popular midcarder. I wouldn't change a thing about the guy.

Truth's rapping may not to be everyone's tastes, but there's no doubt about it that he is over. And the thousands who pop when he comes out and 'rap' along with him all buy into it.

C'mon fellas...keep up here.

I just said why there should be a change:

"And if you're going to create some breakout black superstar then the gimmick has to feel authentic and I honestly think that any new black viewers who tune in to WWE who also happen to be fans of hip hop are going to look at Truth and say 'WTF? when did Treach from Naughty By Nature start wrestling?'

And they are going to immediately tune out because the WWE clearly has no frickin clue because R Truth as a rapper (a CURRENT rapper) is phony as hell."

If all you want is a popular face midcarder to work the crowd, awesome.

But since the discussion way back when was about creating a crossover star to appeal to a black audience the E covets, then he can't be your guy. Because he's so off the mark that it's likely to turn people off.

He's not a rapper. He's like some ridiculous approximation of what a hopelessly out of date corporation thinks a rapper should be.

[LoganRodzen]

C'mon fellas...keep up here.

I just said why there should be a change:

"And if you're going to create some breakout black superstar then the gimmick has to feel authentic and I honestly think that any new black viewers who tune in to WWE who also happen to be fans of hip hop are going to look at Truth and say 'WTF? when did Treach from Naughty By Nature start wrestling?'

And they are going to immediately tune out because the WWE clearly has no frickin clue because R Truth as a rapper (a CURRENT rapper) is phony as hell."

If all you want is a popular face midcarder to work the crowd, awesome.

But since the discussion way back when was about creating a crossover star to appeal to a black audience the E covets, then he can't be your guy. Because he's so off the mark that it's likely to turn people off.

He's not a rapper. He's like some ridiculous approximation of what a hopelessly out of date corporation thinks a rapper should be.

I didn't say he was a rapper or that's what I want. But it sure as hell is what WWE wants - simple and effective. You guys already discussed why Killings shouldn't be the black star they push to the moon (the consensus was Kofi) because he's 35+ years old. Someone said MVP is a midcarder for life, but I think Truth is a midcarder for life as well. As long as he keeps getting fans to pop and jump out of their seats he's doing the job they're paying him to do.

[LoganRodzen]

For the record, it's not like, a "thing." I spent 3 years working really hard at improving my voice, and as a result I have a healthy professional respect for people whose voice impresses me.

It'd be like if you spent years working on a degree in carpentry, then you found out that John Cena is a gifted carpenter. You'd like him even though he might not be that great of a worker.

I didn't say you had a "thing", just a "voice person". It's like someone calling me a "computer person" because I've spent 10+ years doing everything and anything with computers.

On a related note to your Cena example - I absolutely hate Sheamus, but I found out a few months ago that before he became a full-time wrestler he worked as an IT technician. I thought that was cool.

[PeterHilton]

I didn't say he was a rapper or that's what I want. But it sure as hell is what WWE wants - simple and effective. You guys already discussed why Killings shouldn't be the black star they push to the moon (the consensus was Kofi) because he's 35+ years old. Someone said MVP is a midcarder for life, but I think Truth is a midcarder for life as well. As long as he keeps getting fans to pop and jump out of their seats he's doing the job they're paying him to do.

Age is never an issue. It's about how "old" you are in terms of being new to the audience. Batista became a major star well into his 30s.

But you're right. If all they want is a hype man..fine.

[Hyde Hill]

I'm disappointed at you. There's a TNA thread for this *tsk tsk*

Unless....INVASION????



I'm criticizing his look. That's my point. He LOOKS dated.

You're a wrestler..you tellin me it's not a fair criticism of a guy who hasn't changed his look since the end of the Attitude Era?

Hey Anderson was being debated here, it was a showing of a recent good promo of his. What should I have done? Posted I have put up a link as evidence of Anderson's so far good promo work in TNA by linking the Sacrifice A hole promo in the TNA thread?:p

Invasion? Hmm TNA has that all the time. All the big names are coming to TNA!! Hogan told me so lolz.

[LoganRodzen]

Age is never an issue. It's about how "old" you are in terms of being new to the audience. Batista became a major star well into his 30s.

But you're right. If all they want is a hype man..fine.

At first I didn't really agree with your "age is never an issue" statement because I feel Batista is just one of the few examples of a 30+ year old guy making it in the wrestling business. But then I had to look at it in TEW "terms"... I just signed Rocky Golden away from CGC in 2020 and he's 37 years old. Obviously past his prime and who knows how many "good" years left. I understood what you meant after looking it like that. TEW makes everything so clear sometimes. :o

[Hyde Hill]

My wife just said he sounds drunk then she remembered the song and remembered she liked it.

Is that the original though? As I remember that sounding different and being quite good.

[Hyde Hill]

I just read through the past few pages and a few things that stuck out to me:
Linsolv is a voice person and the lack of responses after his (revealing) post made me laugh. ;) But seriously, I'm an Orton fan as well. I thought he was the absolute coolest person when he was doing his RNN Reports when he hurt his shoulder in 2002. The Legend Killer gimmick was by far the coolest gimmick WWE had done in the past 10 years.On the discussion of Killings changing up music, attire, or anything... why the heck should or would he? He's getting an incredible (cheap) reaction from every city WWE goes to. The "what's up?" is so easy that a two year old can catch on. He just picked up a championship and WWE is proving that they don't hold anything against workers who have jumped between WWE and TNA multiple times (like Killings has). Whether or not it's a stereotype is irrelevant. Butts are in the seats at their events and when Truth's music hits... those butts are out of their seats chanting, "WHAT'S UP?!"

He's the very definition of a popular midcarder. I wouldn't change a thing about the guy.

Once or twice if you count the jump back.

[Hyde Hill]

Just got word CM Punk botched a move pretty bad twice. Might be something to look at and talk about after Smackdown friday.

Ehm Smackdown is taped and they can edit it out?

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah I agree he's playing a character on television. As far as McMahon changing his character up via music. McMahon is a legendary character and easily one of the top five most recognizable characters of the last 15 years. So him changing something that is identifiable with him is a lot different than R Truth has has been a mid carder at best his entire career.



He was a main eventer and close to main eventer for TNA for quite a while. Point still stands as those where the early days. Just to clarify.

[hellshock70]

At first I didn't really agree with your "age is never an issue" statement because I feel Batista is just one of the few examples of a 30+ year old guy making it in the wrestling business. But then I had to look at it in TEW "terms"... I just signed Rocky Golden away from CGC in 2020 and he's 37 years old. Obviously past his prime and who knows how many "good" years left. I understood what you meant after looking it like that. TEW makes everything so clear sometimes. :o

How many guys in TEW are still wrestling in their 60's? Not many if at all.

Ric Flair is working the occasional match. Lou Thesz and "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers had their last match in their 70's. Jimmy Valiant officially retired in 2004 after 40 years and passed his name on to a friend of mine. Ivan Koloff retired within the last decade putting him at least near 60 since he is 67 now. And there are a lot of other old timers still working the indies well above the average TEW retirement age.

[hellshock70]

Ehm Smackdown is taped and they can edit it out?

I wonder how they plan to edit the end of the match then?

[hellshock70]

Is that the original though? As I remember that sounding different and being quite good.

If anything the original sounded worse from what I remember. LOL

[LoganRodzen]

Once or twice if you count the jump back.

I looked at it like this: WWF to TNA to WWE - so "multiple" was the wrong word to use even though it seemed like he had jumped more than that.

[Hyde Hill]

How many guys in TEW are still wrestling in their 60's? Not many if at all.

Ric Flair is working the occasional match. Lou Thesz and "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers had their last match in their 70's. Jimmy Valiant officially retired in 2004 after 40 years and passed his name on to a friend of mine. Ivan Koloff retired within the last decade putting him at least near 60 since he is 67 now. And there are a lot of other old timers still working the indies well above the average TEW retirement age.

That is a big difference, we are not talking indies. In the current wrestling climate and especially the WWE/SWF's low intensity and danger style, as long as you work a reduced schedule and the worker stays fit a worker can be an asset well into their 50's.

[LoganRodzen]

How many guys in TEW are still wrestling in their 60's? Not many if at all.

Ric Flair is working the occasional match. Lou Thesz and "Nature Boy" Buddy Rogers had their last match in their 70's. Jimmy Valiant officially retired in 2004 after 40 years and passed his name on to a friend of mine. Ivan Koloff retired within the last decade putting him at least near 60 since he is 67 now. And there are a lot of other old timers still working the indies well above the average TEW retirement age.

Yes, but all of these guys "retired" at some point or another. They're doing these "bonus" matches after they've supposedly called it quits. You can do that in TEW with the handy-dandy editor. In TEW08 I had Marcus McKing set as occasional wrestler at 60 years old and had him do a feud with my top guy at the time (can't remember who). The matches weren't very good by any means, but you can still do it. :)

[Hyde Hill]

Do not even need to edit, just change their push on the day and then set it back post match.

[hellshock70]

Yes, but all of these guys "retired" at some point or another. They're doing these "bonus" matches after they've supposedly called it quits. You can do that in TEW with the handy-dandy editor. In TEW08 I had Marcus McKing set as occasional wrestler at 60 years old and had him do a feud with my top guy at the time (can't remember who). The matches weren't very good by any means, but you can still do it. :)

Buddy Rogers retired a few months after his Main Event match in Japan in 1991. He was going to have a comeback match in 1992 but the fed went out of business and he passed away a few months later.

Lou lived till he was 84, but had his last match against Masahiro Chono in 1990 in Japan at age 74 when he became the only man to wrestle at least once in 7 consecutive decades.

Ivan and Jimmy on the other hand did finish up in the indies.

The Boogie Woogie Man passes the torch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC-oxnTfVao

[LoganRodzen]

Buddy Rogers retired a few months after his Main Event match in Japan in 1991. He was going to have a comeback match in 1992 but the fed went out of business and he passed away a few months later.

Lou lived till he was 84, but had his last match against Masahiro Chono in 1990 in Japan at age 74 when he became the only man to wrestle at least once in 7 consecutive decades.

Ivan and Jimmy on the other hand did finish up in the indies.

The Boogie Woogie Man passes the torch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MC-oxnTfVao

I didn't know any of this to be honest. I really don't have any knowledge of wrestling back in those days besides what I've looked up myself. I was only three years old in 1992. :o

[hellshock70]

I didn't know any of this to be honest. I really don't have any knowledge of wrestling back in those days besides what I've looked up myself. I was only three years old in 1992. :o

I can take you back to the 70's, brother. I went to my first live event in 1975. I remember Ric Flair when he had brown hair. LOL

[Stennick]

He was a main eventer and close to main eventer for TNA for quite a while. Point still stands as those where the early days. Just to clarify.

Yeah I figured when he won the championship and was a "main eventer" the company wasn't even seen on T.V. so I couldn't really count that as a legit main event run of any sorts. But yeah I remember that too, I actually remember him being a heel in Nashville and thinking 'that makes sense'

[hellshock70]

Ric Flair 1972

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_QDoEQqCITvc/R79ponRMcYI/AAAAAAAABN8/3wX28yRsIR8/s320/21.jpg

[LoganRodzen]

Do not even need to edit, just change their push on the day and then set it back post match.

You do if they're already retired from the wrestling business and you want to sign them.

I can take you back to the 70's, brother. I went to my first live event in 1975. I remember Ric Flair when he had brown hair. LOL

My knowledge of wrestling truly starts in the 90's. My older brother whose 29 started going to live shows in the 90's and I used to bug the crap out of him: "what happened?", "was it cool?", "who was there?", "did you see anybody you knew?", etc. It got to the point where I was really disappointed when he would go because I knew I was never going to be invited. I didn't understand why he didn't want me going at the time, but years later I realized - who wants their little brother (whose 8 years younger) tagging along with them to "grown up" shows?

I remember Dec. 8, 1997 like it was yesterday because my brother brought me to see the only RAW that ever happened in Maine with a bunch of his high school buddies. It was the first wrestling show I'd ever been to and I was 8 years old. I remember seeing Kane's entrance and almost crapping my pants. He was really scary back when he first debuted... at least to a little kid. :p

[hellshock70]

You do if they're already retired from the wrestling business and you want to sign them.



My knowledge of wrestling truly starts in the 90's. My older brother whose 29 started going to live shows in the 90's and I used to bug the crap out of him: "what happened?", "was it cool?", "who was there?", "did you see anybody you knew?", etc. It got to the point where I was really disappointed when he would go because I knew I was never going to be invited. I didn't understand why he didn't want me going at the time, but years later I realized - who wants their little brother (whose 8 years younger) tagging along with them to "grown up" shows?

I remember Dec. 8, 1997 like it was yesterday because my brother brought me to see the only RAW that ever happened in Maine with a bunch of his high school buddies. It was the first wrestling show I'd ever been to and I was 8 years old. I remember seeing Kane's entrance and almost crapping my pants. He was really scary back when he first debuted... at least to a little kid. :p

You know when Hulk Hogan went to Japan he had more moves in his arsenal then over here?

[LoganRodzen]

You know when Hulk Hogan went to Japan he had more moves in his arsenal then over here?

I actually read Hogan's book that came out in October - "My Life Outside The Ring" (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Outside-Ring-Hulk-Hogan/dp/0312588895). He said a lot of great things about working over in Japan. He said he absolutely loved it there.

[hellshock70]

I actually read Hogan's book that came out in October - "My Life Outside The Ring" (http://www.amazon.com/Life-Outside-Ring-Hulk-Hogan/dp/0312588895). He said a lot of great things about working over in Japan. He said he absolutely loved it there.

This link will take you to a lot of matches mostly Hogan but there are other matches you can look up like Andre's Japanese matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f-p0tkCuZg

[hellshock70]

This link will take you to a lot of matches mostly Hogan but there are other matches you can look up like Andre's Japanese matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f-p0tkCuZg

in his match against Genichiro Tenryu he actually does an enzuguri. LOL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jUevWjMCJ4&feature=related

[LoganRodzen]

This link will take you to a lot of matches mostly Hogan but there are other matches you can look up like Andre's Japanese matches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8f-p0tkCuZg

On part III of that match and you're right... I've already seen him do stuff that I've never seen him do in the US. I wonder how many people were at that show because it looks packed.

EDIT: I love that when Muta kicks out of the leg drop you can hear a loud "gasp" go throughout the arena and then applause. Just shows you how many people didn't kick out of the leg drop throughout all the years Hogan was dominating.

[hellshock70]

On part III of that match and you're right... I've already seen him do stuff that I've never seen him do in the US. I wonder how many people were at that show because it looks packed.

6:30 (Part 2) of the match with Tenryu, Hulk Hogan pulls off the move you would never see here. Tenryu kicks out of the legdrop and the axe bomber long before people made it more common.

edit: and again at 7:58.

[hellshock70]

On part III of that match and you're right... I've already seen him do stuff that I've never seen him do in the US. I wonder how many people were at that show because it looks packed.


The Tokyo Dome holds 55,000 at full capacity.

[stratusfaction]

Rumor has it at the recent Smackdown tapings VICTORIA returned and attacked Michelle McCool and Layla! I was wondering if anyone attended this weeks taping and if so is there any truth to this?

If it's true then sweet! I'm excited to see Victoria back!

[Hyde Hill]

Could be they did it backstage and will edit it in. If at all true. Hope she does better then her mediocre tna run.

[Linsolv]

EDIT: I love that when Muta kicks out of the leg drop you can hear a loud "gasp" go throughout the arena and then applause. Just shows you how many people didn't kick out of the leg drop throughout all the years Hogan was dominating.

That's sorta funny, because I've seen a few AJPW matches from the 80s, and that's how it ALWAYS happens. They make it really believable, and I am always pulling my hair out when it happens (Go Tenryu! 1... 2... HOW THE--) but it's very formulaic, if you think about it.

[Hyde Hill]

Also wasn't the legdrop Hogan's secondary finisher in Japan? His premier was his lariat. In Japan workers generally have multiple finishers of multiple levels. Which I quite like to be honest.

[Jaysin]

Rumor has it at the recent Smackdown tapings VICTORIA returned and attacked Michelle McCool and Layla! I was wondering if anyone attended this weeks taping and if so is there any truth to this?

If it's true then sweet! I'm excited to see Victoria back!

My friend was there and if that did happen, it wasn't shown to the live crowd.

I hope Victoria won't go back to the company that turned her into a sumo suit wearing joke that falls on her ass on a regular basis.

[ampulator]

The problem with Hogan was not his ring work, but that he was getting stale in the USA. Hogan and Cena comparisons are pretty good... except that Hogan had a LOT of what Cena had, plus much more. Hogan good psychology, something Cena has a bare grasp of. How else was that his match against Ultimate Warrior was that good?

[CQI13]

People were entertained differently back then without dissecting the performances? And that match, looking back on it, wasn't THAT good.

[Stennick]

The problem with Hogan was not his ring work, but that he was getting stale in the USA. Hogan and Cena comparisons are pretty good... except that Hogan had a LOT of what Cena had, plus much more. Hogan good psychology, something Cena has a bare grasp of. How else was that his match against Ultimate Warrior was that good?

Because they didn't tape four television shows a week and hold a pay per view every month so they had a LOT of time to coordinate that match. Literally every move in that match was planned out and thats why it was so good. Cena's psychology is just as good as Hogan's, they both connect with the crowd and play super babyface in and out of the ring very good.

[ampulator]

That's where I disagree. Cena is a terrible wholesome babyface. He gets KIDS... but he also needs to get the adults to believe him. They don't. Hogan did. DDP is a good wholesome face. Hogan was a good wholesome face. Ricky Steamboat was a good wholesome face.

Cena is not. He just seems lame and forced as a good babyface. He can play a COOL babyface, but as a WHOLESOME one, he's terrible. In fact, only a very select of individuals are good as classic wholesome babyfaces. Cena is definitely NOT one of those people.

Saying Cena's Psychology is good as Hogan is like saying Randy Orton has the same amount of charisma has Steve Austin did. There are comparisons, but no dice. It simply doesn't hold up.

[Stennick]

I don't know what Cena hasn't displayed as far as psychology goes that Hogan did display. I've seen Cena get a crowd eating out of his hand the very same way Hogan has. Was it as loud as Hogan or as often? No but John Cena isn't nor ever has been as popular as Hogan was. I'm asking for what Hogan has done psychology wise to say he's got more psychology than Cena? Give me an example.

[hellshock70]

Rumor has it at the recent Smackdown tapings VICTORIA returned and attacked Michelle McCool and Layla! I was wondering if anyone attended this weeks taping and if so is there any truth to this?

If it's true then sweet! I'm excited to see Victoria back!

Everything I've heard was that they didn't even have a women's match for Smackdown.

[Linsolv]

Everything I've heard was that they didn't even have a women's match for Smackdown.

You know what that means... good smackdown this week! :D

[Hyde Hill]

The less McTaker TNA ripoffer on a show the better.

[The Celt]

That's where I disagree. Cena is a terrible wholesome babyface. He gets KIDS... but he also needs to get the adults to believe him. They don't. Hogan did. DDP is a good wholesome face. Hogan was a good wholesome face. Ricky Steamboat was a good wholesome face.

Cena is not. He just seems lame and forced as a good babyface. He can play a COOL babyface, but as a WHOLESOME one, he's terrible. In fact, only a very select of individuals are good as classic wholesome babyfaces. Cena is definitely NOT one of those people.

Saying Cena's Psychology is good as Hogan is like saying Randy Orton has the same amount of charisma has Steve Austin did. There are comparisons, but no dice. It simply doesn't hold up.

I think you're WAAAAY over stating the supposed problem that Cena doesn't draw adults. He doesn't draw smarks, but adult marks? Cena isn't prehaps as appealing as in a smarks mind as the heros of the attitude era, but do you honestly think that Cena's wholesome act isn't as strong as Bret Hart's during the New Generation or Hogan in the 80s? Cena clean cut, do right, be strong, troop salutin' character is as much as good if not the equal to Hart, Shawn Michaels or Hogan. In a work with so many dark and edgy heros (especially nowadays) I'm sure there's family men and women who appreciate the everyman character of John Cena.

I the RAW when Batista let Cena beat him via DQ and get his Wrestlemania match only to beat him down viciously afterwords...that RAW there was an American serviceman in the front row. As Cena got the crap knocked out of him all you could hear was "Come on John! Come on John" over and over.

Bottom line; In my view there are plenty of adults who can get behind a American everyman just trying to do good. It's corny, but corny can work. Hell, the proof is watch RAW and see how many adult sized Orange t-shirts are in the crowd. No, it's no at Austin levels, but people need to take their attitude era vision glasses off.

[The Final Countdown]

The less McTaker TNA ripoffer on a show the better.
Every time she does the Styles Clash, I'm afraid she's going to break her opponent's neck.

[crownsy]

My friend was there and if that did happen, it wasn't shown to the live crowd.

I hope Victoria won't go back to the company that turned her into a sumo suit wearing joke that falls on her ass on a regular basis.

So you'd rather she make much less per show for more work on the Indy circuit?

IF the WWE wants to hire her back, I'd rather her take the money. She deserves it.

[hellshock70]

Check out this link. Pay close attention to the manager listed at the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah%27s

[Astil]

Check out this link. Pay close attention to the manager listed at the bottom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheetah%27s

Possible NSFW.

[supershot]

people need to take their attitude era vision glasses off

And put on there PG Era vision glasses on. ;)

Cena fits their current product perfectly IMO.

[Astil]

I don't where glasses and to me Cena is a personifaction of Main Eventer. He's got a good look, good ring work and great personality.

[Stennick]

Like it or not Pro Wrestling is a male dominated sport still. Sure kids like it and there are more women coming every year. However no matter what you do its a male dominated sport.

Kids don't buy pay per views and usually don't dictate whats on television in prime time. I seriously doubt 4 million women tune into RAW every week its men that are tuning in. They wouldn't be tuning in and buying pay per view's that Cena is all over.

Much like Austin, The Rock and others Cena works more televison, more pay per views than Hogan ever did.

[ampulator]

I think you're WAAAAY over stating the supposed problem that Cena doesn't draw adults. He doesn't draw smarks, but adult marks? Cena isn't prehaps as appealing as in a smarks mind as the heros of the attitude era, but do you honestly think that Cena's wholesome act isn't as strong as Bret Hart's during the New Generation or Hogan in the 80s? Cena clean cut, do right, be strong, troop salutin' character is as much as good if not the equal to Hart, Shawn Michaels or Hogan. In a work with so many dark and edgy heros (especially nowadays) I'm sure there's family men and women who appreciate the everyman character of John Cena.

I the RAW when Batista let Cena beat him via DQ and get his Wrestlemania match only to beat him down viciously afterwords...that RAW there was an American serviceman in the front row. As Cena got the crap knocked out of him all you could hear was "Come on John! Come on John" over and over.

Bottom line; In my view there are plenty of adults who can get behind a American everyman just trying to do good. It's corny, but corny can work. Hell, the proof is watch RAW and see how many adult sized Orange t-shirts are in the crowd. No, it's no at Austin levels, but people need to take their attitude era vision glasses off.
You might be right that people can get behind an everyday man. however, John Cena doesn't play that man well. It's just looks contrived, forced, and faked. it doesn't FEEL like it's him. it feels like he's someone else. It feels like he's playing someone else.

Another problem is, Hogan always had a look consistent with his character and gimmick. Cena does not. He dresses like a part way between a hip hop star, part-way giant teenager. It just doesn't fit.

I never truly liked Hogan, but I could respect his ability to play a wholesome face. Anyone can play a wholesome, but only a few can do it WELL. Cena just looks unnatural and fake when he does it.

If they HAD to a do a wholesome babyface, there's two better choices in the WWE: Rey Mysterio and Kofi Kingston. They are NATURALS at it. And I never really liked Rey Mysterio either, back then or now, but he IS good at it. Cena has played a wholesome face for YEARS, and he still hasn't gotten that good at it.

I've said this before, and I'll say this again. Cena doesn't work well as a wholesome babyface. A wholesome babyface MUST get the whole crowd behind him. It's all he has. Unlike a Cool babyface, he can't just brush them.

One thing that Cena lacks from Hogan is even Hogan had his moments of Kryptonite. Andre... Earthquake.... any big man he's faced. You could always believe that there's a SLIGHT chance he might not make it.

That's not true for Cena. They make it CLEAR he's going to win. And he has no Kryptonite. He survives punts. He survives finishers. He survives submissions.

There's no believability or face heat and sympathy. You know he's going to win. Why should I care?

[Stennick]

So then this has nothing to do with Cena lacking psychology as much as it has to do with you don't personally like Cena. You think his character comes across fake while I'm sure others think it comes across as just him. His character to me seems like its him amped up a bit in the niceness department. It sounds like to me the wholesome baby just isn't your type of character and thats fine. I don't like death matches and you don't like clean cut babies nothing wrong with that but I woudln't say thats much of a flaw in Cena's ability as much as its just not what you like.

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.

[Candyman]

So then this has nothing to do with Cena lacking psychology as much as it has to do with you don't personally like Cena. You think his character comes across fake while I'm sure others think it comes across as just him. His character to me seems like its him amped up a bit in the niceness department. It sounds like to me the wholesome baby just isn't your type of character and thats fine. I don't like death matches and you don't like clean cut babies nothing wrong with that but I woudln't say thats much of a flaw in Cena's ability as much as its just not what you like.

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.

You hit the nail on the head with the first sentence here. It sounds to me like this person just really doesn't like Cena and that has blinded them to reality. Cena's not a good wholesome face, he's a GREAT one - the best since Hogan and maybe better, all things considered. The idea that Cena is only liked by kids and not adults is just silly, IMO. He simply wouldn't be in the position he is if that were true. And maybe some people out there never believe he's going to lose, but I'm sure there were plenty of people that felt the same about Hogan...obviously a lot of people out there do believe Cena will lose, or at least enjoy watching him persevere and win against all odds, considering how often they put the title on him and put him in those storylines and matches...

It's one thing not to like the guy...that's completely understandable. But to just blindly ignore the facts and pretend he's just this guy who's average in the ring and on the mic and is only popular with kids is just silly.

[PeterHilton]

blah blah blah

Like others said, you just don't like Cena.

I would just add that the overall point of wrestling is to get people to pay to watch you work

Cena has kids and their parents paying out their ass to buy his stuff. He has women coming to arenas.

And this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjSXySayq2w

This is an example of people paying just to hate on him. Who cares if net nerds wanna cry; the E takes their cash all the same.

[-laz-]

add me to the list of cena haters

http://fast1.onesite.com/fans.wwe.com/user/w99strowns77/ff8b9c63aa9bcd68b454e8527cd7a2e5.jpg

[TheEdgeOfReason]

That was pretty awesome. I'm dying to see a Cena heel turn. I don't like the wholesome character either.

On a side note, does anybody else absolutely hate the "WWE Universe" term?

[The Final Countdown]

On a side note, does anybody else absolutely hate the "WWE Universe" term?
A better question would be, does anyone like that term?

[LoganRodzen]

On a side note, does anybody else absolutely hate the "WWE Universe" term?

When I hear one of the wrestlers or commentators say it I'm glad that I don't watch every week and that I'm not apart of the "WWE Universe". It actually makes me feel like an idiot because it's beyond cheesy.

[hellshock70]

I'm not part of the WWE Universe. I choose to make it a part of my little universe of things i watch or do.

Which includes any other WWE and non-WWE program I choose to watch or attend or be a part of, be it main stream with 60,000 people or at a rec center with 60 people. It's a small portion of my Universe that is dominated by family and friends and anything I choose to add to it.

[ampulator]

So then this has nothing to do with Cena lacking psychology as much as it has to do with you don't personally like Cena. You think his character comes across fake while I'm sure others think it comes across as just him. His character to me seems like its him amped up a bit in the niceness department. It sounds like to me the wholesome baby just isn't your type of character and thats fine. I don't like death matches and you don't like clean cut babies nothing wrong with that but I woudln't say thats much of a flaw in Cena's ability as much as its just not what you like.

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.
I LIKED CENA. Remember his older gimmick? Hip Hop Star? THAT WORKED. I also don't dislike him personally. It's not a personal matter, it's wrestling booking issue.It still doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible wholesome face. But, he was never that great at psychology.

People tell me his bringing in kids and what not, but I hate to say this, but he pushes out as much as he draws in. Anyone that didn't like he's booked has already left the WWE BECAUSE of the way he's booked. Drawing in kids what won't get them everything. The economy is in the tank, and since parents hold the money purses, I doubt buying your kid a Cena shirt or a ticket to RAW is all that important.

As for the WWE universe thing... I can't say I mind. Actually, it's more correct that I don't care. It's a stupid marketing device like "sports entertainment". No one REALLY believes it. But it's not annoying and it's not shoved down my throat, so I don't think much of it, if it at all.

[lazorbeak]

As far as him not having kryptonite thats completely out of his control thats the writing team. Although btw didn't they just do a WM program with Batista having beat Cena everytime they had been in the ring? Who could say they had never lost to Hogan two years after their initial program? Nobody. Also Sheamous was his kryptonite and he still hasn't gotten a solid win over him.

So I'd argue that Batista was his kryptonite for atleast a year or two having beaten him everytime they were in the ring together. That was the entire base of their feud "you can't beat me Cena I'm the guy you can't beat". So yeah they JUST had his kryptonite feud two months ago so thats not a very sound argument. He still hasn't pinned Sheamous one on one or at all for that matter has he? So Cena's got guys he hasn't beaten and again its a moot point since thats not a knock on his ablities for better or worse thats a knock on the writing of his character.

Reading up on this thread, I was essentially going to post this. It's silly to argue we know Cena will never lose when he's had the crap beaten out of him week after week by Batista leading into WM, and before that, he lost to Sheamus and has never beaten him cleanly. Saying that Hogan was somehow better at this is just flat out wrong: it's not like Hogan lost to Andre, or Earthquake, or, hell, even Savage. In fact, Hogan was FAR more protected than Cena ever has been.

There's more to being a wholesome babyface than just being an underdog, which Cena is on a regular basis. There's also the fact that he's an outspoken supporter of our armed forces, does all that crap for make-a-wish, stands up for what he believes in, etc. While a "wholesome" babyface is never going to get WWE mainstream attention the way the Attitude Era did, it allows for significantly more valuable sponsors and introduces a new generation of fan to the product.

And it's not like Cena is nearly as bad at this as Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels were. For being "disappointing," this year's WM did over double XII's buyrate, and almost 3 times X3's awful buyrate.

[Stennick]

You're saying he's pushing out as many people as he'd drawn in? Point to me how he's pushed away millions of people? Point to me where people where buying other guys merch and now because of Cena's their not.

You're not really using numbers to back up your argument. You say he's bad as pyschology, you say he's not drawing in adults, you say he's pushed out as many as he's brought in.

Again its not a big deal that you don't like Cena, heck I liked 03 Cena more than I've liked 98% of their characters. The argument I have is you make these claims where he doesn't have psychology, he's not a good clean cut baby, he's not drawing in adults, he's not got that "one" guy that he can't beat when I named you two very recent examples of guys that have kicked him around the arena several times before he got his revenge. Now you're saying he's pushed away as many fans as he's brought in. Yet you have nothing more to go off of than your word. Give me numbers of SEVERE rating drop offs when Cena was being booed. Give me numbers of of fans that watch when Cena's hurt and off of television or why isn't Smackdown viewed more? If people don't like Cena wouldn't those wrestling fans watch SD or TNA or some other wrestling show? They don't like Cena so they just quit wrestling in general? Thats highly doubtful but I'd be willing to look at numbers.

So while you come up with some facts to back up your argument beyond "your opinion" let me give you an example of some numbers. I've compiled a list of the last six wrestlemania's. I'll list who main evented them and then you can decide for yourself if Cena isn't drawing.

WM26 850,000 - Taker vs. HBK
WM 25 970,00 - HHH vs. Orton
WM24 1,000,000 - Orton vs. Cena vs. HHH
WM 23 1,200,000 - Cena vs. HBK
WM 22 980,000 - Cena vs. Triple H
WM 21 1,000,000 - Triple H vs. Batista

So of the last six Wrestlemania's the ones that John Cena has main evented are 1st, 2nd, and 4th highest buys. Now I'm not saying he's the reason for all of those numbers but if he was pushing away as many fans as he was bringing in I certainly don't think he would have the highest buys of the last six ppvs. Furthermore why wouldn't the other buys that he's not main evented be even higher if these fans were pushed away by Cena.

My point is that the numbers don't lie and they have seen no decrease since the era of Cena began at Wrestlemania 22. You can not like the guy all you want but he is a draw, people do love the guy and he makes bucket loads of money. You can't do the numbers he does if adults don't like him and if his character isn't over. Numbers don't lie, peoples opinions do.

[Stennick]

Reading up on this thread, I was essentially going to post this. It's silly to argue we know Cena will never lose when he's had the crap beaten out of him week after week by Batista leading into WM, and before that, he lost to Sheamus and has never beaten him cleanly. Saying that Hogan was somehow better at this is just flat out wrong: it's not like Hogan lost to Andre, or Earthquake, or, hell, even Savage. In fact, Hogan was FAR more protected than Cena ever has been.

There's more to being a wholesome babyface than just being an underdog, which Cena is on a regular basis. There's also the fact that he's an outspoken supporter of our armed forces, does all that crap for make-a-wish, stands up for what he believes in, etc. While a "wholesome" babyface is never going to get WWE mainstream attention the way the Attitude Era did, it allows for significantly more valuable sponsors and introduces a new generation of fan to the product.

And it's not like Cena is nearly as bad at this as Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels were. For being "disappointing," this year's WM did over double XII's buyrate, and almost 3 times X3's awful buyrate.

THIS is one hundred percent right. Hogan NEVER lost. He didn't lost to Earthquake he got beat up and came back and pinned him in every 1 on 1 match they had. He never lost to Savage leading up to WM 5, he never lost to Andre. Hogan didn't lose flat out. The only guy he laid down for in about a 10 year span was Warrior. Thats the only WM loss he had up until he left at WM 8. So I have no idea how Hogan showed weakness better when Batista destroyed him for weeks and they aired those video packages of all the different ppv matches Batista had BEAT him in. Batista even said "you've never beat me Cena" over and over again leading into WM26. Sheamous beat him cleanly in a Tables match and Cena has still not gotten a pinfall over him.

We can all be smarks and say "we knew" Cena wouldn't lose but thats like saying we knew Austin wouldn't lose at WM 14. Just because we're pretty sure of the outcome of something doesn't mean someone hasn't shown weakness it just means that sometimes in this business we know the outcome before the match. WM 15 was the same way did people not expect Austin to beat Rock for the title? Or WM 18 did people not expect HHH to beat Jericho? I could go on but the point is just because you think you know the outcome doesn't mean the other 1.2 million that buy WM know it as well and that has nothing to do with a Cena argument.

[ampulator]

Actually, the numbers having increased or decreased. I never said, he was alienating people MORE than his drawing in. I said, his bringing in as much as pushing out. That means, while he DOES draw new people in, the way he is now, he pushes the same amount of out. He can't keep the people that WAS in, while drawing a new crowd.

I never doubted Cena is brining anyone new in. There's never been doubt about that. But he hasn't been able to retain the old audience. He's not LOSING more people more than he's bringing in, but you can't SEE that in numbers. You, however, can SEE it in crowds. it's the same number of people, except the crowd is colder and colder each year, and the people are different. More parents, more kids.

What IS true is you noticed, every so-called "Cena-hater" has moved on. The only reason I haven't is I believe Cena and the WWE can be saved. Why else would I subject myself to this? There's still time before they hit the point where there realized they boxed themselves in a corner.

[Hyde Hill]

I LIKED CENA. Remember his older gimmick? Hip Hop Star? THAT WORKED. I also don't dislike him personally. It's not a personal matter, it's wrestling booking issue.It still doesn't change the fact that he's a terrible wholesome face. But, he was never that great at psychology.

People tell me his bringing in kids and what not, but I hate to say this, but he pushes out as much as he draws in. Anyone that didn't like he's booked has already left the WWE BECAUSE of the way he's booked. Drawing in kids what won't get them everything. The economy is in the tank, and since parents hold the money purses, I doubt buying your kid a Cena shirt or a ticket to RAW is all that important.

As for the WWE universe thing... I can't say I mind. Actually, it's more correct that I don't care. It's a stupid marketing device like "sports entertainment". No one REALLY believes it. But it's not annoying and it's not shoved down my throat, so I don't think much of it, if it at all.

Tell that to the legions of people that are part of it, the site stuff that is. And for not cramming it down your throat start counting the number of times it is said over a broadcast. Its a lot! And I dislike the term a lot and to top it of they stole it from TNA lolz.

[The Final Countdown]

And it's not like Cena is nearly as bad at this as Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels were. For being "disappointing," this year's WM did over double XII's buyrate, and almost 3 times X3's awful buyrate.
That seems like an apples & oranges comparison to me. Both the WWF/E and the PPV system itself are completely different today as opposed to 1996.

I don't mean that as a slight on Cena: I would agree that he's a bigger star than Michaels and/or Hart were at their peak, even if I personally would much rather watch them.

[lazorbeak]

That seems like an apples & oranges comparison to me. Both the WWF/E and the PPV system itself are completely different today as opposed to 1996.

I don't mean that as a slight on Cena: I would agree that he's a bigger star than Michaels and/or Hart were at their peak, even if I personally would much rather watch them.

Oh I'm not arguing that this is proof-positive that Cena is better. But for the talk that Cena is "pushing away" fans, the company is still in a FAR better situation than it was when it was trying to transition someone new into a top babyface in the mid-90's. There isn't an imminent need to change things because they're still a long way from being in that bad a shape.

[LoganRodzen]

As for the WWE universe thing... I can't say I mind. Actually, it's more correct that I don't care. It's a stupid marketing device like "sports entertainment". No one REALLY believes it. But it's not annoying and it's not shoved down my throat, so I don't think much of it, if it at all.

It does feel forced to me. The commentators say it constantly and when wrestlers say it you can tell they were told to. Even when Jerry Lawler says it it feels forced. It's just one of those little things that bug me.

If Undertaker ever references the "WWE Universe" - we know things have truly hit the fan. These past few years that Taker has referenced the undefeated streak has actually disappointed me. Years and years ago we never heard anyone outside of his opponent and the commentators speak of the streak. Hearing him talk about it during his segments with HBK the past two WMs made me think of it differently. Everybody knows its scripted, so where does he get off being able to brag about the streak? The streak (to me) should be this unspoken thing and Taker should never reference it himself.

[ampulator]

Does sound forced? Hell yeah. Is it forced down my throat? No. I just don't give a.... well, you know. There are bigger issues. I mean, it's really WWE's own version of the Rock's "millions... and millions... of fans" or Hogan's "Hulkamaniacs", or Christian's "Peeps", or Y2J's "Jericholics".

Is it kind of dumb? Yeah. Does it really matter in the scheme of things? No. It's not original, but I don't really care. It's stupid gimmick. It's basically WWE's version of facebook/myspace/social network + fan shoutout.

On one hand, it's gimmick like sports entertainment. Everyone knows it's BS marketing. If you really call WWE as purely a sports entertainment company, you have issues. The WWE universe is just "WWE: Social Networking" + "WWE: Shout Out to the fans".

[Hyde Hill]

First of all its always popular to rag on the top babyface. No offence meant just an observation even The Rock and Austin had severe detractors. Also there seems to be a flavour of the months heel in the IWC as well from time to time. Anderson then Orton now Miz. And ragging on TNA has been "in" since Russo came back and ROH gets praised to the heavens.

Cena is not as bad a worker as the IWC think he is, but he is not as good as the WWE make us believe he is. Also Cena is not the problem its the entire writing/booking and direction of the WWE. Cena being the figurehead at this time is just the one catching a lot of the flack.

Numbers are definitely down, just look at the ratings, but they where down before Cena arrived as the main event face. Profitability on the other hand is up and that is the E's main goal. This has mainly been done due to greater efficiency, international distribution and new technology. Is their current heading a long term sustainable development? Well they won't go out of bussiness that is for sure but profits will stop growing and will eventually go down or bottom out.

But as long as TNA does not get its head out of its behind or another company pops up they will be no1 for a long long long time. Hell a strong no2 would even force changes but that is not happening either.

[Hyde Hill]

Does sound forced? Hell yeah. Is it forced down my throat? No. I just don't give a.... well, you know. There are bigger issues. I mean, it's really WWE's own version of the Rock's "millions... and millions... of fans" or Hogan's "Hulkamaniacs", or Christian's "Peeps", or Y2J's "Jericholics".

Is it kind of dumb? Yeah. Does it really matter in the scheme of things? No. It's not original, but I don't really care. It's stupid gimmick. It's basically WWE's version of facebook/myspace/social network + fan shoutout.

On one hand, it's gimmick like sports entertainment. Everyone knows it's BS marketing. If you really call WWE as purely a sports entertainment company, you have issues. The WWE universe is just "WWE: Social Networking" + "WWE: Shout Out to the fans".

Not caring and not being forced down your throat are two different things. It is being forced down your throat but since you do not care it doesn't matter to you. Plus they pretend it is more then just a lame social network.

[ampulator]

It REALLY isn't be forced down my throat. I'm so serious. WWE forces a lot of things down onto people, but the WWE universe is not one of them.

[LoganRodzen]

It REALLY isn't be forced down my throat. I'm so serious. WWE forces a lot of things down onto people, but the WWE universe is not one of them.

They don't force us to join their crappy site, no. But they do reference it to the point where if you were channel surfing I bet you could hear it if you stayed on RAW or SD for 2-3 minutes. Maybe it isn't forced down YOUR throat and I'm glad you don't feel that way. But MY throat is sore as **** from all their BS over the years.

[ampulator]

Oh, WWE's current BS is getting to me. But as an issue, the WWE universe is WAY down the list.

[Stennick]

Actually, the numbers having increased or decreased. I never said, he was alienating people MORE than his drawing in. I said, his bringing in as much as pushing out. That means, while he DOES draw new people in, the way he is now, he pushes the same amount of out. He can't keep the people that WAS in, while drawing a new crowd.

I never doubted Cena is brining anyone new in. There's never been doubt about that. But he hasn't been able to retain the old audience. He's not LOSING more people more than he's bringing in, but you can't SEE that in numbers. You, however, can SEE it in crowds. it's the same number of people, except the crowd is colder and colder each year, and the people are different. More parents, more kids.

What IS true is you noticed, every so-called "Cena-hater" has moved on. The only reason I haven't is I believe Cena and the WWE can be saved. Why else would I subject myself to this? There's still time before they hit the point where there realized they boxed themselves in a corner.

I guess we'll agree to disagree but I respect your opinion and I'm glad this didn't get into some kind of shouting match. I'm not much of a "feel" guy I'm a numbers guy. I look at numbers being about the same or up the last six years in the areas that make money. You seem to be looking at crowds, excitement levels and feels. Just different ways of looking at the same thing is all I suppose.

I don't mind the WWE Universe in the sense that "what happens here is its own world". A lot of entertainment television shows, serialized dramas and what not have their own universe so I don't mind it in that aspect its just using it constantly that bothers me.

[The Final Countdown]

and ROH gets praised to the heavens.
Someone wasn't around for Final Battle 2009...or Jerry Lynn's title reign...or Tyler Black's many failed title shots...or the screwy non-finish to the match between the MCMGs and the KOW just a few weeks ago. Yeah...ROH's fans aren't afraid to criticize the company when they don't like something. ;)

About the WWE Universe: I recently saw an article on WWE's website that referenced how the "WWE Universe" reacted to something that happened like 20 years ago. It bothered me more than it probably should have. Just felt really weird and out of place.

[Hyde Hill]

Someone wasn't around for Final Battle 2009...or Jerry Lynn's title reign...or Tyler Black's many failed title shots...or the screwy non-finish to the match between the MCMGs and the KOW just a few weeks ago. Yeah...ROH's fans aren't afraid to criticize the company when they don't like something. ;)

About the WWE Universe: I recently saw an article on WWE's website that referenced how the "WWE Universe" reacted to something that happened like 20 years ago. It bothered me more than it probably should have. Just felt really weird and out of place.

Yeah I do know, I went a lit overboard to make the distinction clearer, but in general they are viewed in a very positive light.

[hellshock70]

If you want to know who's drawing, forget the PPV buy rates and check merchandise sales.

[Hyde Hill]

If you want to know who's drawing, forget the PPV buy rates and check merchandise sales.

That is a better one. Although problematic for some heels as they tend to sell less even though most of the WWE heels are cool heels now. Also the utility workers get kinda shafted in that system, eg the guys that round out the product and make the other guys look good.

[hellshock70]

WM26 850,000 - Taker vs. HBK
WM 25 970,00 - HHH vs. Orton
WM24 1,000,000 - Orton vs. Cena vs. HHH
WM 23 1,200,000 - Cena vs. HBK
WM 22 980,000 - Cena vs. Triple H
WM 21 1,000,000 - Triple H vs. Batista


The last 3 WM's have had a lower buy-rate then the year before. This can be the product of 2 possibilities:

1. The Economy
2. Wrestlemania parties were people get together for events. (Every time a bunch of us train together in my area on a PPV night we end up at one house watching the event and we had 17 people at one party.)

[Hyde Hill]

Apart from people being less interested off course.

[hellshock70]

That is a better one. Although problematic for some heels as they tend to sell less even though most of the WWE heels are cool heels now. Also the utility workers get kinda shafted in that system, eg the guys that round out the product and make the other guys look good.

They might be good and make other guys look good and round out the product. But, they're still not putting butts in the seats.

A question was asked of me a while back. Who would I rather wrestle Bobby Eaton or the Ultimate Warrior?

From a wrestler's stand point: Bobby Eaton, the guy is talented and will make you look better. He is also skillful enough to keep from hurting you.

From a Promoter's stand point: Ultimate Warrior, cause despite the fact that he isn't half the wrestler Bobby Eaton is, he would put more butts in the seat then Bobby would.

[hellshock70]

Apart from people being less interested off course.

At least in my area, they're not less interested. They are looking for more alternatives. This is why North Carolina has over 75 active indy wrestling companies.

[Hyde Hill]

They might be good and make other guys look good and round out the product. But, they're still not putting butts in the seats.

A question was asked of me a while back. Who would I rather wrestle Bobby Eaton or the Ultimate Warrior?

From a wrestler's stand point: Bobby Eaton, the guy is talented and will make you look better. He is also skillful enough to keep from hurting you.

From a Promoter's stand point: Ultimate Warrior, cause despite the fact that he isn't half the wrestler Bobby Eaton is, he would put more butts in the seat then Bobby would.

Actually they do, especially in the current days. As the overall product is more important then just the top guys. Just look at all the highpoints in wrestling. Yes you had your Hogan's and Rocks etc but at the same time there was also a strong tag division and/or hardcore workers and/or cruiserweigts.

Edit: Also as a promoter if there where not any Bobby Eaton's then there would never be any Warriors as there would be no one to make him look good.

[Jaysin]

So you'd rather she make much less per show for more work on the Indy circuit?

IF the WWE wants to hire her back, I'd rather her take the money. She deserves it.

She deserves the paycheck yes, but she doesn't deserve to be a laughing stock. She's a hell of an in ring worker and the majority of WWE's female wrestlers are jokes. Hell, even Melina who had so much promise has gone down the drain. She's gotten so sloppy in the ring. I'm afraid she's going to hurt someone.

Beth and Nattie are about the only two really talented divas left.

[hellshock70]

Actually they do, especially in the current days. As the overall product is more important then just the top guys. Just look at all the highpoints in wrestling. Yes you had your Hogan's and Rocks etc but at the same time there was also a strong tag division and/or hardcore workers and/or cruiserweigts.

Edit: Also as a promoter if there where not any Bobby Eaton's then there would never be any Warriors as there would be no one to make him look good.

Semantics. Because despite these guys making the others look good they're still not coming to see them.

Even Flair as good as he was in the 80's before the Horsemen, people came to see if Magnum T.A. or the other babies could finally take him down. They would beat Ric Flair time and time again but when the title was on the line 99 times out 100 they couldn't get the job done when it counted.

They came to see Hulk Hogan do the exact opposite. His opponents were built up (Studd, Bundy, Andre, Psycho Sid, Undertaker, even Zeus and many others) as these physical monsters and that Hogan didn't stand a chance. He would get beat up week end and week out. And when the big match took place he came through (except the Undertaker's shot at Tuesday in Texas). They switched it up to scientific wrestling masters for the smaller guys like Mr. Perfect. Or brutal brawlers like Bad News Brown.

edit: The tag division is so weak they had to unify the titles. And the Hardcore & Cruiserweight divisions no longer exist.

It's now about the bottom line and when the Big Boys go down who can step up and keep the butts in the seats.

[hellshock70]

If you're a fan of a good wrestling match then you'll want to watch Shelton, Angle, and guys who are really talented.

But if you want to be entertained then Shelton's not high on your list. And entertainment is what WWE is selling. That's why tomorrow night you'll watch a 2 hour show with 4 matches.

[ampulator]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

[hellshock70]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

This is so true.

IMO, CM Punk is an Upper Midcarder. He is a decent heel but he is far removed from the heel status that guys like Triple H, Undertaker, and many others including Hogan have achieved. The S.E.S. might have helped get him there but no one else in the group can give it the boost it needs. And when they unmask Joey a lot of people are gonna be let down.

[LoganRodzen]

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

This is exactly how I run my Global promotion in TEW. :)

[Hyde Hill]

Semantics. Because despite these guys making the others look good they're still not coming to see them.

Even Flair as good as he was in the 80's before the Horsemen, people came to see if Magnum T.A. or the other babies could finally take him down. They would beat Ric Flair time and time again but when the title was on the line 99 times out 100 they couldn't get the job done when it counted.

They came to see Hulk Hogan do the exact opposite. His opponents were built up (Studd, Bundy, Andre, Psycho Sid, Undertaker, even Zeus and many others) as these physical monsters and that Hogan didn't stand a chance. He would get beat up week end and week out. And when the big match took place he came through (except the Undertaker's shot at Tuesday in Texas). They switched it up to scientific wrestling masters for the smaller guys like Mr. Perfect. Or brutal brawlers like Bad News Brown.

edit: The tag division is so weak they had to unify the titles. And the Hardcore & Cruiserweight divisions no longer exist.

It's now about the bottom line and when the Big Boys go down who can step up and keep the butts in the seats.

Yep and the ratings are way way lower.

[Hyde Hill]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

Yep and while your main stars are a big part of the brand they are not the whole brand, they are the sizzle on the stake or the sauce if you will, but if its not supported by good meat and vegetables and isn't cooked aka booked right then it draws less. Kinda what I was trying to say.

[hellshock70]

Yep and while your main stars are a big part of the brand they are not the whole brand, they are the sizzle on the stake or the sauce if you will, but if its not supported by good meat and vegetables and isn't cooked aka booked right then it draws less. Kinda what I was trying to say.

And if you're eating a New York Strip or a Filet Mignon you're not really caring too much about the corn on the side either.

You'll eat it first to get it out of the way of the main course.

[MrCanada]

I've learned something else the other day. What gets people to buy your product, at least when it was summed up to me, was it's brand, quality, and price.

WWE is focused on "Brand" building. What they are attempting to do is, regardless of who is on top, you will watch it BECAUSE it's the WWE, not because of any of its top stars.

Now, this is not something new... but WWE has quite strong brand. What they want to do is, if they ever have a star cut off from them (injuries, leaving, etc)., their profits will remain more or less the same. To WWE's credit, this has worked out well for them.

Despite TNA grabbing a lot of stars, they have been unable to capitalize on each star's popularity. In-themselves, Jeff Hardy, Hulk Hogan, and Rob Vam Dam are big names. Howver, together, and they mean... well, nothing. What does it mean? Seriously?

On the other hand, I'm not sure how much WWE can push more on "brand building". It only works so much. If Cena, Triple H, Orton, Jericho, and Edge were all unavailable for work for some reason, WWE will take a hit. Now, this is obvious (durh!), and they won't take a much of a hit as they are supposed to (brand-building), but their midcard, lower midcard, and the rest of the roster is so weak in terms popularity, that will hurt them long term.

WWE has basically merged their Main Event and Upper Midcard together, reducing the distance between them. At any moment, you could go from top star to jobber to the stars, in a span of 1 month. However, the distance between Upper Midcard and Midcard is so great, WWE has to "hotshot" people to the Main Event.

This is basically the sum of everything, in a way I feel its been since WCW folded (if not shortly before then, when everyone started watching WWF and going to WWF events). For a time maybe it was the power of Rock & Austin, but after that it was the only show in town, so wrestling became "WWF/e" to most people.

The other big problem is the size of wrestling fans versus sports entertainment fans. With the line becoming more blurred everyday, I think people forget the old way of wrestling isnt true anymore. That simple. The old way of wrestling is a dieing thing. The last couple million people left who like that stuff during the '90's are now the same group on boards like this, and watching TNA already.

This is why TNA will never truley grow until they somehow become as trusted a brand as WWE or somehow rock the foundations of the sports entertainment world. They already have the wrestling world's attention. All couple million of them (dont forget, TNA's ratings are just based off of US TV ratings. Add Canada, the UK, internet, and the sprinkled other regions to that, its a couple million who likely watch impact in some way). Those are all thats left of wrestling fans.

Thats what sets WWE apart from TNA. Also I feel a lot of the fans now are the workers on the indy scene. Anyone can get involved in it these days. A main reason I think indy shows struggle is because the people who would go watch them, and get "smark" enough to know about them, end up wrestling on them... And thats also to say you dont often see random indy workers at other shows paying to watch. So guys who work crap local shows who then call themselves pro-wrestlers, dont then go to the bigger shows (be it ROH or the local "big indy") and are hurting the business they think they love.

[hellshock70]

Thats what sets WWE apart from TNA. Also I feel a lot of the fans now are the workers on the indy scene. Anyone can get involved in it these days. A main reason I think indy shows struggle is because the people who would go watch them, and get "smark" enough to know about them, end up wrestling on them... And thats also to say you dont often see random indy workers at other shows paying to watch. So guys who work crap local shows who then call themselves pro-wrestlers, dont then go to the bigger shows (be it ROH or the local "big indy") and are hurting the business they think they love.

You would be surprised how many guys you watch that got started on the local scene.

14 years ago I was on a show not 5 minutes from my house that included both Hardys, Joey Abs from the Mean Street Posse and Hurricane Helms.

[BHK1978]

Very true, in the early 1990's I saw HHH, Perry Saturn, and Justin Incredible on local shows all before they became stars.

[hellshock70]

this is the Jeff Hardy that appeared with me.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2176/2270864832_7eef83a16a.jpg

how about Willow the Wisp vs Surge (Matt Hardy)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ivovaetFUc

How about a Serial Thrillerz (Shane Helms & Mike Maverick) Promo on the Hardys before Shane went to WCW as a member of 3 Count.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=whohLJMcZkE&feature=related

And John Cena as UPW hywt. Champion before the WWE came calling and sent him to OVW.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLPT-4qbhUE

[Hyde Hill]

And if you're eating a New York Strip or a Filet Mignon you're not really caring too much about the corn on the side either.

You'll eat it first to get it out of the way of the main course.

Yep and if its bad the main course is ruined. As is the whole experience. The top guys can't exist without the lower guys. And the top guys draw a lot less when the rest of the card is not as strong.