The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Linsolv]

I'm very close to agreeing with the point.

The majority of any group are perfectly happy with what they're given. Complacency's a real problem pretty much everywhere.

The reason we're the internet wrestling community is because we're not part of that majority.

[Astil]

Yes, yes...only the intellectual giants that comprise the IWC can truly appreciate what great wrestling really is.

The WWE caters to the masses which means it obviously must be completely and totally without merit, despite the roughly 40 years or so that it's dominated the industry.

It's a wonder net fans don't dislocate their spines what with all the patting themselves on the back and saying how smart they are.

Y'know that might explain my recent back pain...

[PeterHilton]

I'm very close to agreeing with the point.

The majority of any group are perfectly happy with what they're given. Complacency's a real problem pretty much everywhere.

The reason we're the internet wrestling community is because we're not part of that majority.

By that logic everything that's popular is somehow of lesser quality becase the masses are all complacent and therefore not willing to chase after a higher standard of measure.

I think net fans need to get over themselves for the most part. It's wrestling. To most people its mindless entertainment; brain candy.

The WWE has been wildly successful for decades marketing themselves as just that.

If you want something different that's your prerogative. But that's all you're looking for: something different. Not better. Not smarter. Not scientifically superior. Just different.

[Slagaholic]

While I agree with your main point. That's not always true. There are some things in wrestling that aren't just different, but are terrible.

For example: A fan wanting unprotected chair shots in your wrestling isn't just wanting something different, they want something terrible.

It's not all a gray area.

[PeterHilton]

While I agree with your main point. That's not always true. There are some things in wrestling that aren't just different, but are terrible.

For example: A fan wanting unprotected chair shots in your wrestling isn't just wanting something different, they want something terrible.

Well, yes, we could go point by point and find varying examples of just 'terrible.'

But overall what I'm trying to say is that peope who hyperanalyze the WWE are missing the point. THEY are not the target audience.

Net fans criticizing the WWE is the wrestling equivalent of listening to bubble gum pop music and criticizing the lyrics.

[Stennick]

Peter oh how I've missed agreeing with you when you tell it exactly like it is. Some people can't be pleased I question why some of you even watch wrestling any more except to have something to complain about.

[Linsolv]

I like the E, but the statement [itself], regardless of any implications that may or may not be true, is [true]. If you're happy with what you've got, you don't go looking to fix it. In fact, if you're unhappy with what you've got, a lot of people will deal with it.

I'm not saying that the WWE is putting out a bad product. Light on the in-ring work, sometimes, when they put on 20 minutes of wrestling in a 2 hour show, but I like a lot of their guys enough that I can deal with that. But if the question is optimization, most people just don't care. The IWC, and especially the GDS forums, are predominantly people who want to optimize their product. The WWE is a business, and businesses are about costs vs. benefits. Quite simply, they wouldn't see a big benefit for making the perfect, wrestling-oriented show, and they would see a cost.

However, to criticize the GDS users for being those optimizing types is equally unfair. It's in their (our) nature.

[Hyde Hill]

Ad to that, that past makes you grow fonder. When people think attitude or 80's etc they will remember largely the good stuff and not all the bad that came with it. Combine that with the lifting of the veil aspect and you get critical and cynical people. Ad into the now almost 10 year monopoly of the E, sorry TNA lolz, and their less then stellar performance during that time.

Not that around here it is that bad as it is more critical analysis with the occasional overboard venting of frustration.

In the end there is only two ways to influence stuff short of getting a job in the industry. Your attention and your money.

[Hyde Hill]

I like the E, but the statement [itself], regardless of any implications that may or may not be true, is [true]. If you're happy with what you've got, you don't go looking to fix it. In fact, if you're unhappy with what you've got, a lot of people will deal with it.

I'm not saying that the WWE is putting out a bad product. Light on the in-ring work, sometimes, when they put on 20 minutes of wrestling in a 2 hour show, but I like a lot of their guys enough that I can deal with that. But if the question is optimization, most people just don't care. The IWC, and especially the GDS forums, are predominantly people who want to optimize their product. The WWE is a business, and businesses are about costs vs. benefits. Quite simply, they wouldn't see a big benefit for making the perfect, wrestling-oriented show, and they would see a cost.

However, to criticize the GDS users for being those optimizing types is equally unfair. It's in their (our) nature.

Don't even think it is much about cost but more effort and skill. Damn I wish Kreski hadn't died.

[crownsy]

Gotta love that a guy who has nothing to do with the wrestling business just determined somebodies (Danielson) career.

Gotta love that a Email sent from a freaking hotmail address is being used as legitimate news.

I think tonight, I'll write an email saying "to whom it may concern" and make it a mattel VP who is to scared to send it from a legit email source. I'm sure i can get that onto a least a few of the Wrestling rumor sites.

[Hyde Hill]

BTW congrats again and welcome back Peter.

[crownsy]

Well, yes, we could go point by point and find varying examples of just 'terrible.'

But overall what I'm trying to say is that peope who hyperanalyze the WWE are missing the point. THEY are not the target audience.

Net fans criticizing the WWE is the wrestling equivalent of listening to bubble gum pop music and criticizing the lyrics.

As usual, Peter is right on target.

[Hyde Hill]

Gotta love that a Email sent from a freaking hotmail address is being used as legitimate news.

I think tonight, I'll write an email saying "to whom it may concern" and make it a mattel VP who is to scared to send it from a legit email source. I'm sure i can get that onto a least a few of the Wrestling rumor sites.

I would try it. BTW what was the site that e mail was on? Gives you an immediate target.

[LoganRodzen]

Gotta love that a Email sent from a freaking hotmail address is being used as legitimate news.

I think tonight, I'll write an email saying "to whom it may concern" and make it a mattel VP who is to scared to send it from a legit email source. I'm sure i can get that onto a least a few of the Wrestling rumor sites.

Doesn't really matter whether it's legitimate news or not. Just that it seemed like a good enough reason for everything that's happening.

[Hyde Hill]

Seems the whole NXT/Bryan thing might have helped in the ratings department as they got a 3.4

[Linsolv]

@crownsy Hotmail still exists?

@Hyde - Effort and skill are a cost. You have to take the time (=money) and effort (=money) to put together a really reliable, good set of in-ring workers, then put together the right people to write/book it, then this, then that... As far as I'm concerned, it's something you can only solve with money, and then that begs the question, if you spend that money, will it help?

Answer: Not really. ROH has a really great setup. If they had slightly better production values, I'd declare them pretty close to perfect. They are a little too high-flying for me, but what can you do, amirite? That's not to say that a clearly superior product (one that is objectively better and preferred by the majority of the market) cannot be defeated by a clearly inferior one due to poor branding and advertisement and market placement.

If we decided to level the playing field a bit -- we put iMPACT on FOX and ROH on TBS (the number 2 and 3 prime time cable channels respectively), and gave them all equal advertising on their home channel, do I think WWE would be the far-and-away leader? No, I don't think it'd be that much of a rout. But would ROH be the far-and-away leader, now that's the question I think you're trying to say we're jumping to conclusions on. Still, it would be interesting.

[PeterHilton]

I like the E, but the statement [itself], regardless of any implications that may or may not be true, is [true]. If you're happy with what you've got, you don't go looking to fix it. In fact, if you're unhappy with what you've got, a lot of people will deal with it.

I'm not saying that the WWE is putting out a bad product. Light on the in-ring work, sometimes, when they put on 20 minutes of wrestling in a 2 hour show, but I like a lot of their guys enough that I can deal with that. But if the question is optimization, most people just don't care. The IWC, and especially the GDS forums, are predominantly people who want to optimize their product. The WWE is a business, and businesses are about costs vs. benefits. Quite simply, they wouldn't see a big benefit for making the perfect, wrestling-oriented show, and they would see a cost.

However, to criticize the GDS users for being those optimizing types is equally unfair. It's in their (our) nature.

The idea that the IWC is trying to optimize the product is a matter of opinion. For all we know using the ideas that most net fans put forth would drive away the majority of the E's viewers.

And it's totally fair. Especially on these boards:

I assume the people who post here play TEW. One of the basic tenets of the game is that your product needs to amtch the desires of your fans.

If you criticize the WWE for creating a product which appeals to the majority of its viewing audience, then you are -metaphorically speaking - telling them to play the game wrong.

[PeterHilton]

BTW congrats again and welcome back Peter.

Thanks. I keep meaning to post pics. :p

[Linsolv]

Fair enough, Peter. The criticism that people seem to be making is that the WWE is engaging in lowest-common-denominator pandering, which I'd say isn't really true. TNA is, I'd say, but that's neither here nor there.

EDIT: That said, if I were to say what I think that Vince would be best served doing, it'd be trying to bring back Kayfabe. If you have to make serious, sweeping changes to do it, fine. But wrestling fans shouldn't have to be in the closet because people who know it's fake think we're confused on the subject. This thing with Bryan has come dangerously close to being good for the business.

[PeterHilton]

If we decided to level the playing field a bit -- we put iMPACT on FOX and ROH on TBS (the number 2 and 3 prime time cable channels respectively), and gave them all equal advertising on their home channel, do I think WWE would be the far-and-away leader? No, I don't think it'd be that much of a rout. But would ROH be the far-and-away leader, now that's the question I think you're trying to say we're jumping to conclusions on. Still, it would be interesting.

And WOW do I think you'd be wrong. Or at least incredibly disappointed.

For all of it's criticisms, the E has been the industry standard since the early 80s.

They took over the market during the Rock n Wrestling Era despite the fact that their in-ring product was honestly not that great for the most part..definitely not what net fans would look at today as being 'quality'

The Attitude Era was based more on characters than ring work (ironically the WCW's greatest success was also based more on characters and names than ringwork, although they did a great job of blending things)

And today, they draw far more fans than other companies despite formulaic and largely predictable matches.

I think net fans should realize that - as crazy as it sounds - most people DON"T watch wrestling for the actual ..y'know...wrestling. There's a segment of the audience that does...but most people want the soap opera.

That's it.

Fair enough, Peter. The criticism that people seem to be making is that the WWE is engaging in lowest-common-denominator pandering, which I'd say isn't really true. TNA is, I'd say, but that's neither here nor there.

EDIT: That said, if I were to say what I think that Vince would be best served doing, it'd be trying to bring back Kayfabe. If you have to make serious, sweeping changes to do it, fine. But wrestling fans shouldn't have to be in the closet because people who know it's fake think we're confused on the subject. This thing with Bryan has come dangerously close to being good for the business.

Even if it IS pandering to the lowest common denominator, who cares? It works. They are a publicly traded company with a responsibility to generate profits, not to please wrestling nerds. ;)

I think kayfabe is an impossible dream, especially with the advent of MMA.

[Hyde Hill]

The idea that the IWC is trying to optimize the product is a matter of opinion. For all we know using the ideas that most net fans put forth would drive away the majority of the E's viewers.

And it's totally fair. Especially on these boards:

I assume the people who post here play TEW. One of the basic tenets of the game is that your product needs to amtch the desires of your fans.

If you criticize the WWE for creating a product which appeals to the majority of its viewing audience, then you are -metaphorically speaking - telling them to play the game wrong.

There is a difference between the IWC and here though hehe. Also if done over time would it cost that much more money to optimize their product? As they are paying mediocre writers and talent etc as is. And they have a structure which looks for better talent in all departments as is.

[PeterHilton]

There is a difference between the IWC and here though hehe. Also if done over time would it cost that much more money to optimize their product? As they are paying mediocre writers and talent etc as is. And they have a structure which looks for better talent in all departments as is.

Again..optimize is an opinion.

But as to cost: it may not be much, but what are you gaining, really? The net fans who bitch sand complain generally tune in regardless and the current product keeps their fans happy.

So if you added more wrestling and more "smart mark" storylines etc how many more fans will tune in?

[Hyde Hill]

Well Peter you are ignoring the kind of cyclical effect that the WWE/F's dominance has had over the long amount of years as to what "wrestling" fans want as what the E gives is perceived as to be what wrestling is and vice versa. The only time they did a true change in formula and product was when they where realistically challenged.

That same problem would also be one of the things that would have them win the ratings etc for quite a while if Linsolv's plan would be implemented.

WWE/F = wrestling = WWE/F = wrestling ad nauseam.

I also do not think that the most on these boards want or expect the WWE to become a niche entertainment product like let's say Firefly, but would like it to be more like say X-Files or at least Friends and not the Power Rangers Power Hour.

[Hyde Hill]

Again..optimize is an opinion.

But as to cost: it may not be much, but what are you gaining, really? The net fans who bitch sand complain generally tune in regardless and the current product keeps their fans happy.

So if you added more wrestling and more "smart mark" storylines etc how many more fans will tune in?

8.1 ratings? lol, at least that is what they got at their height, although agreed that was not with predominately wrestling but at least better characters and storylines.

Edit: And of course it is on opinion and you are right that their main objective is the bottom line but atm due to their near monopoly position and the lack of a viable threat at this time, sorry TNA not yet, they are choosing the bottom line over quality and thinking short to medium term instead of very long term.

A current example would be the theme ppv's yes it has increased buys in comparison to the non themed ones, but look a couple of years down the road and the novelty has worn off and you are forced to book in order to accommodate the ppv instead of the story itself and I expect buys to be even lower.

[Linsolv]

I LOVE the soap opera. It's my favorite part. I actually, after posting that, decided that I should probably give an example of maintaining kayfabe. Then I thought, "I've been learning all this video editing stuff the past few days, I've got an idea that could be entirely fun!" And that's about as far as that got but you know...

Going out for a bit, though. I'll rejoin this debate in an hour or two. :D

[PeterHilton]

Well Peter you are ignoring the kind of cyclical effect that the WWE/F's dominance has had over the long amount of years as to what "wrestling" fans want as what the E gives is perceived as to be what wrestling is and vice versa. The only time they did a true change in formula and product was when they where realistically challenged.

Chicken and the egg. Do wrestling fans expect it because the WWE is popular? Or is the WWE popular because they give fans what they want/expect?

But I see what you mean.

I also do not think that the most on these boards want or expect the WWE to become a niche entertainment product like let's say Firefly, but would like it to be more like say X-Files or at least Friends and not the Power Rangers Power Hour.

Fair enough. But you may want to check and see how long those other shows ran as compared to how long Power Rangers was on tv.

[Hyde Hill]

Chicken and the egg. Do wrestling fans expect it because the WWE is popular? Or is the WWE popular because they give fans what they want/expect?

But I see what you mean.



Fair enough. But you may want to check and see how long those other shows ran as compared to how long Power Rangers was on tv.

Both as with what I meant with Cyclical.

X - Files 9 seasons. Friends 10 seasons. Both very long for a mainstream prime time show. And yeah the Rangers have 17 but not nearly the ratings etc.

[Stennick]

Not near the ratings but pro wrestling in this day and age only works for television. Its not like there has been any real ratings drop since the PG stuff officially set in. If I'm in business I'll take being on the air for 17 years at a 3.0 over being on air for 9 seasons at a 6.0.

[The Final Countdown]

Not near the ratings but pro wrestling in this day and age only works for television. Its not like there has been any real ratings drop since the PG stuff officially set in. If I'm in business I'll take being on the air for 17 years at a 3.0 over being on air for 9 seasons at a 6.0.
I think this is an apples & oranges comparison. It's not like Friends couldn't have kept going. The actors simply decided they'd been doing it long enough, so the show ended. Their "product" never stopped drawing in the viewers.

[alden]

riley vs kaval was actuly a good match. I don't think it hurt kaval not winning......i am happy they are still allowing him to use the warriors way as a finisher though.

[pat21532]

This is the 1st time i've watched nxt and really enjoyed the 1st match

[Linsolv]

Chicken and the egg. Do wrestling fans expect it because the WWE is popular? Or is the WWE popular because they give fans what they want/expect?

But I see what you mean.

Again, though, we've got the kayfabe problem I brought up earlier.

The reason -- or, at least one big reason -- that the kids are the big merch draws is, kids haven't figured out to be ashamed of their wrestling fandom.

Given the ratings that RAW is pulling, if people were buying WWE shirts as often as they do basketball jerseys, I'd have seen more that 5-10 WWE-shirt-wearing folks in my lifetime. Instead, I've seen about 3 at the library, 1 came into work the other day with an 80s DX shirt, and there was 1 kid who I knew in high school who spent most of the time talking to himself.

Simple fact is, people don't want to publicize the fact that they're watching a "fake" sport.

[PeterHilton]

Again, though, we've got the kayfabe problem I brought up earlier.

The reason -- or, at least one big reason -- that the kids are the big merch draws is, kids haven't figured out to be ashamed of their wrestling fandom.

Given the ratings that RAW is pulling, if people were buying WWE shirts as often as they do basketball jerseys, I'd have seen more that 5-10 WWE-shirt-wearing folks in my lifetime. Instead, I've seen about 3 at the library, 1 came into work the other day with an 80s DX shirt, and there was 1 kid who I knew in high school who spent most of the time talking to himself.

Simple fact is, people don't want to publicize the fact that they're watching a "fake" sport.

I guess. But again...do you REALLY think kayfabe is possible in today's day and age? With the advent of internet reporting and the popularity of REAL combat sports companies like UFC?

Kayfabe is a pipe dream.

[Slagaholic]

Kayfabe still matters to children.

[Linsolv]

Firstly, you'd have to deal with the "leak" problem. The easiest way to do this is have the "leak" be the booker, and have him tell whatever he wants to tell.

Secondly, you'd need to be more subtle. To give an entirely un-subtle genre that hits where I'm referring to, look at actual soap operas. My sister used to watch Days of our Lives. After 6 weeks of watching every day, I knew every character, their motivation, what made them 'different,' and so on. As people, I thought they were petty and stupid, but as characters, they weren't "all the same," even though their 'gimmick' was always something along the lines of 'conniving [insert gender-appropriate insult].'

Wrestling can have a little more variety than that, but I think we go too far sometimes into gimmick territory. Like, take Grizzly Redwood (the most noticeable example IMO) -- his gimmick is that he's a lumberjack. His appearance is that of a lumberjack. His character? Lumberjack. A "lumberjack" gimmick in my kayfabe-enhanced world would be a wrestler who just used to be a lumberjack once.

Then, you take those more subtle gimmicks, and you stop referring to them as stupid **** like "superstars," and start referring to them as "fighters." Cover the show as if it were an ESPN post-game, showing "press releases" instead of promos, and showing replayed matches.

That's how I would cover it. As for the actual live shows... then you treat it as just a straight sporting event, like DREAM or the UFC. Although I don't really watch UFC so I'm only guessing that it's comparable to DREAM events.

[Remianen]

It makes perfectly good sense that her campaign manager would believe that others would use it against her. But if he's good at his job shouldn't be able to fight off the fire from her opponents if they tried using that against her?

Absolutely not. Are you kidding? There are a few things that can make a campaign manager look better than they actually are and all of those things reside with the candidate. Looks, charisma, eloquence (see: Clinton, William Jefferson; Powell Jr, Adam Clayton), innate power (D'Amato, Alphonse); universal respect and admiration (Moynihan, Daniel Patrick); local celebrity due to tragedy (McCarthy, Carolyn); or immense personal wealth (Bloomberg, Michael).

Linda McMahon is not a particularly attractive woman (handsome, yes. Conventionally attractive, no.), she has yet to exhibit any kind of charisma or magnetism and she's not 'good on the mic' (read: eloquent). She has no innate power (not even within the Republican party) or universal respect or admiration, no local tragedy that made her "famous" and she doesn't have immense personal wealth (the best example of this is Michael Bloomberg).

This part of the country doesn't work like others. If you're the leading candidate of the party opposing arguably the most unpopular Senator in the state's long history, polls should make you a slam dunk. Linda can't even get the party's conservatives on board (largely due to the business she's in). So no matter how good her campaign manager is, he's going to have to do everything in his power to make her appear as pure as the driven snow. Whether people know it or not, there are conservatives in Connecticut who are campaigning behind the scenes to derail her candidacy and ensure she doesn't get the nomination in August. So David's fighting a war on multiple fronts when even the party that's supposed to be behind you is sniping at the candidate at every turn.

Welcome to American politics.

:rolleyes:

Yes, yes...only the intellectual giants that comprise the IWC can truly appreciate what great wrestling really is.

No offense to you Peter but every unabashed WWE fan I know is, well, a moron. That's typically what blind devotion makes you. It would be like me saying Angelina Love is an excellent wrestler or that the Knockouts match should main event the next PPV. Uh, no, that would be freakin' stupid. I have two clients who are going to SummerSlam this year....for their annual vacation. That four day weekend is going to cost them more than a week in Maui (or the Canary Islands or Jamaica and only slightly less than Corsica or Mykonos) would. Show of hands, how many would use their once a year vacation, to go to a WWE PPV? Anyone? Anyone? Bueller? Realize, these aren't people who can travel very much (unless it involves driving) so doing this means nothing else for the rest of the year (perhaps even until next year's income tax refund). And the excuse can't be used that they've never seen a WWE event live before. They were the ones I brought with me to Wrestlemania XX.

Defining comment from one of them that basically caused me to dismiss their opinion in this area altogether. When Hogan & Bischoff took over TNA: "Maybe now they'll do more stuff outside the ring cuz their people sure can't wrestle." "Yeah, you know they have to be lame when their champion steals the finisher from a DIVA." Now, I have my own beefs with TNA but that....that basically ended all conversation on wrestling. I won't even broach the subject with them anymore (besides the multitude of times they text or email me asking me for TEW tips. Apparently I was wrong, running SWF isn't idiotproof).

Gotta love that a Email sent from a freaking hotmail address is being used as legitimate news.

I think tonight, I'll write an email saying "to whom it may concern" and make it a mattel VP who is to scared to send it from a legit email source. I'm sure i can get that onto a least a few of the Wrestling rumor sites.

crownsy, are you familiar with confidentiality agreements? Or corporate information security? How willing would you be to lose your job specifically for leaking confidential or privileged information that might be evidence of corruption (real or perceived)? In fact, you cannot have the 'whistleblower' without initial anonymity. You think people at Enron were sending emails to the feds from work? The fact that the info came from an anonymous source doesn't automatically make it untrue. Watch Linda McMahon's campaign to see what happens should this be picked up by actual news organizations (or conservative think tanks looking to undermine or discredit Linda's candidacy). In my view, you take the info with a grain of salt until the 'equal and opposite reaction' occurs. Besides, that note surprises no one even vaguely familiar with American politics. Mike Bloomberg still has direct input into the running of his company, despite having had to "resign" from it in order to be mayor without perceived conflicts of interest. So why would it be so hard to believe Linda (and her top political advisors) would have direct control over the company she co-owns? I bet Vince wants Linda to be Senator as much as she does (if not moreso) since it would give him inroads politically.

Sorry if this is common knowledge but your incredulity kinda made me wonder whether it was or not. Believe me, I was an extremely active YRC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Republicans) member at one time (not to mention the godson of a sitting Congressman, sadly of the opposite party, who is now a committee chair) and worked on several campaigns locally. That doesn't even register as a 'bad thing'. Imagine the chairman of the Senate banking committee pulling strings to get an opponent's house foreclosed on so he could point out how the candidate was 'awful with his personal finances so how is he going to be any different for New York's financial wellbeing?'. Seriously, if Linda has cheated on Vince at any time at all in their relationship, it'll come to light between August and November. The attack ads are going to be EPIC (especially if she wins the nomination and goes up against Blumenthal). WWE better go to a TV-G rating or else anything and everything they do is going to find its way into an ad of some kind.

[Linsolv]

This part of the country doesn't work like others. If you're the leading candidate of the party opposing arguably the most unpopular Senator in the state's long history, polls should make you a slam dunk. Linda can't even get the party's conservatives on board (largely due to the business she's in). So no matter how good her campaign manager is, he's going to have to do everything in his power to make her appear as pure as the driven snow. Whether people know it or not, there are conservatives in Connecticut who are campaigning behind the scenes to derail her candidacy and ensure she doesn't get the nomination in August. So David's fighting a war on multiple fronts when even the party that's supposed to be behind you is sniping at the candidate at every turn.

I'm not a Connecticutter or whatever they're called (sorry if that comes off as brusque) but I thought that Blumenthal was considered to be very well liked by his constituency. But then again, that only makes it worse.

[Stennick]

I think this is an apples & oranges comparison. It's not like Friends couldn't have kept going. The actors simply decided they'd been doing it long enough, so the show ended. Their "product" never stopped drawing in the viewers.

Sure it could have gone on for a while more no doubt. The point is its been proven time and time again that a show like Power Rangers is going to be on the air three times as long as a show geared towards adults.

Point is Friends could not stay on the air for 17 years. Even if you stay on the air for ten don't you want to stay on the air for 20 business wise?

A lot of time people look at television shows and other forms of entertainment as art. They complain when their favorite show takes an interesting turn or when their favorite movie makes a sequel thats clearly set out to sell toys. Its business and its making money and if I want to make money I'm trying to stay on the air for as long as possible.

Its been talked about to death. Those rebellious 90's kids grew up, got out of college and high school and started families. Its time to market to our kids and our younger brothers.

[PeterHilton]

Firstly, you'd have to deal with the "leak" problem. The easiest way to do this is have the "leak" be the booker, and have him tell whatever he wants to tell.

Secondly, you'd need to be more subtle. To give an entirely un-subtle genre that hits where I'm referring to, look at actual soap operas. My sister used to watch Days of our Lives. After 6 weeks of watching every day, I knew every character, their motivation, what made them 'different,' and so on. As people, I thought they were petty and stupid, but as characters, they weren't "all the same," even though their 'gimmick' was always something along the lines of 'conniving [insert gender-appropriate insult].'

Wrestling can have a little more variety than that, but I think we go too far sometimes into gimmick territory. Like, take Grizzly Redwood (the most noticeable example IMO) -- his gimmick is that he's a lumberjack. His appearance is that of a lumberjack. His character? Lumberjack. A "lumberjack" gimmick in my kayfabe-enhanced world would be a wrestler who just used to be a lumberjack once.

Then, you take those more subtle gimmicks, and you stop referring to them as stupid **** like "superstars," and start referring to them as "fighters." Cover the show as if it were an ESPN post-game, showing "press releases" instead of promos, and showing replayed matches.

That's how I would cover it. As for the actual live shows... then you treat it as just a straight sporting event, like DREAM or the UFC. Although I don't really watch UFC so I'm only guessing that it's comparable to DREAM events.

i don't honestly get what you're saying. Re-create kayfabe so that the WWE will grow in popularity with older fans? What makes you think that would be more profitable than what they draw now?

You still haven't taken into account other companies who ARE legit and how they'd be competing directly with the the WWE. Their presentation would seem even more phony because of how close they're trying to be to what the legit companies would do.

Why would i watch fake fighting with semi-realistic characters and large personalities when I can watch REAL fighting with REAl characters and big personalities?

Your whole premise turns the E into a copycat poser league with no real reason to believe you'd be any more popular than what they do now.

I just don't buy it. Sorry.

[Stennick]

Firstly, you'd have to deal with the "leak" problem. The easiest way to do this is have the "leak" be the booker, and have him tell whatever he wants to tell.

LOL, you can't just "deal" with a leak problem and make sure the guy leaking the info is a certain person. Vince has tapped phone lines and bugged computers trying to catch leaks and still they get through. The reason something is a leak is because it can't be caught. Thats like saying make sure the people that leak music are the people in charge. How exactly do you think it gets leaked? Some body in the know leaks it to someone else and it travels down hill from there. You can't just "make the leak" somebody thats kind of a silly statement.


Then, you take those more subtle gimmicks, and you stop referring to them as stupid **** like "superstars," and start referring to them as "fighters." Cover the show as if it were an ESPN post-game, showing "press releases" instead of promos, and showing replayed matches.

That's how I would cover it. As for the actual live shows... then you treat it as just a straight sporting event, like DREAM or the UFC. Although I don't really watch UFC so I'm only guessing that it's comparable to DREAM events.

Have you heard of ROH? How many fans do they draw? Aside from pay per view draws Vince craps all over UFC t.v ratings. That may be more interesting to you but how many 6 year old kids watch MLB? and the NFL? Or even UFC? The answer not that many. Wrestling isn't a sport and I don't want it to be treated like one. 1980's NWA is as close as I want to something being a sport.

Thats an interesting idea for a niche promotion but in 2010 its just not going to work. People want to see a television show not a fight. Why would I pay to see a fake fight? Why wouldn't I pay to watch the UFC instead? I'm paying for the story, I'm paying for the fight to be the culmination of the story not for the fight to be the story.

[LoganRodzen]

I can't say that I've followed any of her campaign or have any knowledge of how CT politics work, but I do have family there and I highly doubt any of them will be voting for her. I'm just curious what her REAL motives are for running in the first place. :eek:

[Comradebot]

i don't honestly get what you're saying. Re-create kayfabe so that the WWE will grow in popularity with older fans? What makes you think that would be more profitable than what they draw now?

You still haven't taken into account other companies who ARE legit and how they'd be competing directly with the the WWE. Their presentation would seem even more phony because of how close they're trying to be to what the legit companies would do.

Why would i watch fake fighting with semi-realistic characters and large personalities when I can watch REAL fighting with REAl characters and big personalities?

Your whole premise turns the E into a copycat poser league with no real reason to believe you'd be any more popular than what they do now.

I just don't buy it. Sorry.

I think I'm with you on this one. Why one Earth would the WWE work towards being more like MMA? If anything, they should work towards being different from MMA and that by doing so they can be entertaining in their own right. In the end, wrestling can be about as close to live action super heroes as we can ever hope to see, and they should play it up. Screw trying to be more "realistic". It's scripted, so there's only so much you can do before people are all "well, if I want to see real combat I'll turn on UFC and watch REAL combat".

But do you know what MMA can't offer (at least not reliably)? Exciting storylines, larger than life characters, or even great matches (after all, how many super hyped matches in MMA have ended in 30 seconds or turned into actionless borefests that end by decision?). WWE should offer their own, unique product, NOT something that could ever be viewed as attempting to "compete" with an actual sport.

[Astil]

I'm not a Connecticutter or whatever they're called (sorry if that comes off as brusque) but I thought that Blumenthal was considered to be very well liked by his constituency. But then again, that only makes it worse.

He lied about being in Vietnam or something similar so he's in jeapordy right now. It'll probably wash over, but theres a cloud of distrust.

[dvdWarrior]

Oddly enough, Danielson being fired over all this political stuff would be just the thing to lose my vote - not that I vote or anything...

I'm very much in the George Carlin camp when it comes to political things...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

Just saying, if I did vote, firing Danielson to protect your campaign might be enough to get me to vote for the other guy.

:cool:

[The Final Countdown]

Have you heard of ROH? How many fans do they draw?
More than they'd draw if they tried to emulate the WWE's style, I'd wager.

But yeah, what the E is doing seems to be working, so good for them. Personally, I don't have a problem with the elimination of more "adult" things, like blood. It also means no more terrible stuff like the Katie Vick debacle, Mark Henry making out with a transvestite, and the Kiss-My-Ass club, so that's a plus. I just wish they'd stop doing so much lame "comedy." The mid-90's WWF was supremely cartoony, but I don't remember them doing anywhere near as many stupid skits.

[Teh_Showtime]

More than they'd draw if they tried to emulate the WWE's style, I'd wager.

But yeah, what the E is doing seems to be working, so good for them. Personally, I don't have a problem with the elimination of more "adult" things, like blood. It also means no more terrible stuff like the Katie Vick debacle, Mark Henry making out with a transvestite, and the Kiss-My-Ass club, so that's a plus. I just wish they'd stop doing so much lame "comedy." The mid-90's WWF was supremely cartoony, but I don't remember them doing anywhere near as many stupid skits.

this

now segments are just plain pointless and boring (on raw at least)

thats why Im a SD follower, and ROH watcher

[Self]

I'm pretty much with Peter Hilton on all of this. Internet Wrestling Fans tend to think that being 'smart' to the business makes them better than the meat & potato WWE fan, but they aren't. They're different. No better. No worse. I'm sure WWE can improve in many areas, but so many folks around the IWC mistake opinion and personal preference for 'good for business'. Some folks don't like the PG thing. That's cool. Not my cup of tea either. That doesn't mean PG is bad. I'm sure it's making them a lot of money.

Seems the whole NXT/Bryan thing might have helped in the ratings department as they got a 3.4

NXT thing? Yes.

Bryan? How many people really knew? The internet was abuzz (to the point where I'm beginning to get sick of the guy) but I wouldn't expect the controversy to have affected ratings in a big way. Hell, it made me not watch RAW.

I think I'm with you on this one. Why one Earth would the WWE work towards being more like MMA? If anything, they should work towards being different from MMA and that by doing so they can be entertaining in their own right. In the end, wrestling can be about as close to live action super heroes as we can ever hope to see, and they should play it up. Screw trying to be more "realistic". It's scripted, so there's only so much you can do before people are all "well, if I want to see real combat I'll turn on UFC and watch REAL combat".

But do you know what MMA can't offer (at least not reliably)? Exciting storylines, larger than life characters, or even great matches (after all, how many super hyped matches in MMA have ended in 30 seconds or turned into actionless borefests that end by decision?). WWE should offer their own, unique product, NOT something that could ever be viewed as attempting to "compete" with an actual sport.

I agree, but I'll take the excuse to shoot off on a tangent.

There's a lot wrestling can learn from MMA. Ironically it's a lot of what MMA already learned from pro-wrestling. Specifically the focus of personalities and characters. WWE have the wacky promos and the wacky stories, and that's fine, don't change that, but often-times they seem to be missing heart. UFC on the other hand, with their countdown specials, do a phenomenal job working with what they have to tell you who those fighters are and why you should cheer/boo them.

I personally would like to see WWE rediscover this. Not to copy UFC completely, but to find out what makes this element work and work towards the same goal. Take time and effort and focus on a character, and tell the audience his story. Who is he? What brought him to the dance? What is he fighting for? WWE actually has the advantage over UFC here because they're fake. They can make up their own story to be bettter than real life, which can be pretty dull. This is something NXT almost gets right. The Alex Riley video package from last week was chock-full of juicy content. Same with David Otunga's. Sadly, I find the rest of the show is pretty shallow.

I'm watching Legend of the Seeker right now. It's my kind of show in that it's got swordfights and it's fantasy, so I can forgive some of the worse elements. Why do I bring it up? Because similar to wrestling they've got a bunch of characters who run around, getting into fights and doing wacky things. They feud. They argue. Characters do wacky things. Some entertain me. Some don't. However, every so often they do a flashback episode that delves into someone's backstory. Yesterday I saw an episode that took a character I really didn't like, and gave me insight into his past. They showed me what brought him to the dance, and now I like him more.

Zack Ryder. I like him. The whole "Woo Woo Woo" thing. The Jersey Shore stuff. I find it entertaining... but where's the meat? Where's the backstory? It's wafer thin, so how can I really get behind him? Kofi Kingston? He's got a few wacky moves and is from Ghana. Is there more to it? Can we explore that in some way? I'd LOVE to see a UFC Countdown special on these guys, or something of a similar nature. Zack Ryder 'training' with his guido friends in Long Island? Awesome.

Wrestling is about superheroes. Sure. That should never change. However, the best Superheroes have heart. They have backstories and personal struggles we can relate to, and time has been taken to tell these stories. WWE have 5 hours of weekly TV. Surely they can do the same.

Just my opinion.

[Hyde Hill]

If you like that stuff watch the before the bell packages TNA does they are somewhat similar and pretty good.

[Self]

If you like that stuff watch the before the bell packages TNA does they are somewhat similar and pretty good.

I vaguely remember a little James Storm package they did a long time ago. It went into his private life a little, where he talked about loving wrestling and his dog. I thought it was pretty cool, if a little 'inside' and contradictory to his on-screen character. He came off as a down-to-earth babyface, while he was playing a drunken cowboy heel at the time. I kinda dug it.

P.S. Stop trying to trick me into watching TNA. :D I may be sick of WWE right now, and I may have actually watched a Wrestlicious match last night, but I'm not so desperate for wrestling as to watch Impact. Not yet. ;)

[Linsolv]

LOL, you can't just "deal" with a leak problem and make sure the guy leaking the info is a certain person. Vince has tapped phone lines and bugged computers trying to catch leaks and still they get through. The reason something is a leak is because it can't be caught. Thats like saying make sure the people that leak music are the people in charge. How exactly do you think it gets leaked? Some body in the know leaks it to someone else and it travels down hill from there. You can't just "make the leak" somebody thats kind of a silly statement.

Dealing with a leak problem is indeed easier said than done. But it's the biggest problem you'd have if you tried to play a straight "We're really wrestling for real" show.

However, "making someone the leak" is easy peasy. You just send out emails to people saying whatever you wanted to say, but not through official channels.

The same way you get REAL leaks.

Have you heard of ROH? How many fans do they draw? Aside from pay per view draws Vince craps all over UFC t.v ratings. That may be more interesting to you but how many 6 year old kids watch MLB? and the NFL? Or even UFC? The answer not that many. Wrestling isn't a sport and I don't want it to be treated like one. 1980's NWA is as close as I want to something being a sport.

You keep saying "fake fight." That's what I'm talking about. You want me to sit here and argue the point that a wrestling promotion in which people genuinely believed they were real fights, while at the same time insisting that I think of them as fake fights? That's ludicrous.

As for storyline, it's not hard to get a solid drama going. Like Self mentioned, you can go into the characters. You can script an honest to gosh rivalry, which can get personal and bitter. Then some third party steps into the argument, declares [something], and you've got yourself a party. Or you could have someone cut a promo on a match we just saw, after the fact (since he's another fighter of notoriety) and remark negatively or positively, forming friendships or rivalries once again.

Heck, you could even to honest shoot fights from time to time, or even most of the time for lower-card matches. You'd probably find that those would be far from the favorite, though, since scripted matches can have a lot more bells-and-whistles.

Then, once in a rare while -- once every couple years -- you can have some serious poo poo go down. Maybe you have a fight spill out into the crowd and get all hardcore and ****. You can have someone get mad and punch out the other guy's "agent" [manager].

[Hyde Hill]

I vaguely remember a little James Storm package they did a long time ago. It went into his private life a little, where he talked about loving wrestling and his dog. I thought it was pretty cool, if a little 'inside' and contradictory to his on-screen character. He came off as a down-to-earth babyface, while he was playing a drunken cowboy heel at the time. I kinda dug it.

P.S. Stop trying to trick me into watching TNA. :D I may be sick of WWE right now, and I may have actually watched a Wrestlicious match last night, but I'm not so desperate for wrestling as to watch Impact. Not yet. ;)

Never!!!!!!!!:p And those where some time ago and where the non kayfabe pieces called I think "insert name here" uncut just type in before the bell and TNA on youtube. Seriously since their move back to Thursdays things have gotten better.

[PeterHilton]

Dealing with a leak problem is indeed easier said than done. But it's the biggest problem you'd have if you tried to play a straight "We're really wrestling for real" show.

However, "making someone the leak" is easy peasy. You just send out emails to people saying whatever you wanted to say, but not through official channels.

The same way you get REAL leaks.



You keep saying "fake fight." That's what I'm talking about. You want me to sit here and argue the point that a wrestling promotion in which people genuinely believed they were real fights, while at the same time insisting that I think of them as fake fights? That's ludicrous.

As for storyline, it's not hard to get a solid drama going. Like Self mentioned, you can go into the characters. You can script an honest to gosh rivalry, which can get personal and bitter. Then some third party steps into the argument, declares [something], and you've got yourself a party. Or you could have someone cut a promo on a match we just saw, after the fact (since he's another fighter of notoriety) and remark negatively or positively, forming friendships or rivalries once again.

Heck, you could even to honest shoot fights from time to time, or even most of the time for lower-card matches. You'd probably find that those would be far from the favorite, though, since scripted matches can have a lot more bells-and-whistles.

Then, once in a rare while -- once every couple years -- you can have some serious poo poo go down. Maybe you have a fight spill out into the crowd and get all hardcore and ****. You can have someone get mad and punch out the other guy's "agent" [manager].

At this point you're being a little ridiculous.

1) from a legal standpoint, the licensing is very different from MMA and the WWE. Right now, they can promote in several states where MMA is illegal/unlicensed specifically because they admit they are fixed

2) They're a publicly traded company. Even if they presented themelves as legit on-screen, it'd be public record that their matches were a work.

3) Screw the leaks. Don't you think that people like Dana White and the media that cover MMA would be falling all over themselves to take a giant dump all over anything the WWE would do? They'd be a laughingstock.

Again...WTF is the point? Anyone who would be attracted to more "realism" would eventually be more interested in MMA because it's..y'know... REAL.

It's a really, really dumb and pointless idea. You'd instantly alienate the people you're trying to attract while simultaneously driving away the people who (quite successfully) support your product because they enjoy the campiness. There's literally zero reason to believe that a more realistic product would be any better or more entertaining or more profitable.

The only reason you've given that the WWE should be more realistic is that you think older fans are embarassed to admit they watch based on the fact that you don't see many people walking around wearing their t-shirts.(???)

So based on that premise, the WWE should throw out a product model that has made them wildly successful for 30 + years????

Awful.

[Self]

Never!!!!!!!!:p And those where some time ago and where the non kayfabe pieces called I think "insert name here" uncut just type in before the bell and TNA on youtube. Seriously since their move back to Thursdays things have gotten better.

I just watched Destination X; Before The Bell. It was okay. Not exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. It's a lot of flash with little substance. A lot of clichéd "TNA is great." "X-Division is great" "It's not about weight limits" with little focus on the characters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I actually enjoyed watching it, and it gets the company over, but I'm not going to fall in love with a character because he works for a promotion I like. I need specifics.

I've seen Impact since they moved back to Thursdays. I wasn't impressed. I'll likely give them another shot in the near future, but I doubt it'll ever be my kind of thing.

[PeterHilton]

I think I'm with you on this one. Why one Earth would the WWE work towards being more like MMA? If anything, they should work towards being different from MMA and that by doing so they can be entertaining in their own right. In the end, wrestling can be about as close to live action super heroes as we can ever hope to see, and they should play it up. Screw trying to be more "realistic". It's scripted, so there's only so much you can do before people are all "well, if I want to see real combat I'll turn on UFC and watch REAL combat".

But do you know what MMA can't offer (at least not reliably)? Exciting storylines, larger than life characters, or even great matches (after all, how many super hyped matches in MMA have ended in 30 seconds or turned into actionless borefests that end by decision?). WWE should offer their own, unique product, NOT something that could ever be viewed as attempting to "compete" with an actual sport.

This.

Comradebot said it wonderfully.

[Stennick]

You may find this idea entertaining and I'm not saying I don't enjoy some realism with my wrestling but like I said 80's NWA is as far as I want to get with that.

You'd be driving away the audience you've built over 30 years while at the same time not attracting anyone new.

[Linsolv]

Fair enough. Just a thought. A thought I decided to argue for a while. :D

[The Final Countdown]

Another tweet from Danielson:

Still not the right time, other than to say this: I am now available for independent bookings.

[Linsolv]

Yep. Totally a work.

Gotta be! I mean, the folks at WWE might not especially like him (though I think it's been said repeatedly that they do at least a bit) but they have to recognize that he's a major draw for other companies. He'd be 90-day-claused for sure!

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Yep. Totally a work.

Gotta be! I mean, the folks at WWE might not especially like him (though I think it's been said repeatedly that they do at least a bit) but they have to recognize that he's a major draw for other companies. He'd be 90-day-claused for sure!

The 90 day clause only applies to TV.

[Linsolv]

The 90 day clause only applies to TV.

Oh. I feel silly. That said, it's still weird that he's still on his WWE twitter.

[Stennick]

I wonder how much longer until people accept that Danielson is gone?

I'm starting to think that he could go to TNA, be the champion for 7 straight years, then do a decade tour of Japan, come back and job on whatever b show the WWE has at that time and the net will be "OMFG I told u allz it wuz a work".

I like Bryan and after the buzz he created in the WWE, he'll either get back there or snatched up by TNA. If not I hear there is another company out there he used to work with that may give him a job taking down the ring or something :D

P.S not a shot at you Linslov just the net people in general. Even the WO couldn't make up its mind if this was a work or not. Thats how crazy this angle with him has gone. Its been a long time since I saw Dave fooled but this did it.

[The Celt]

Yep. Totally a work.

Gotta be! I mean, the folks at WWE might not especially like him (though I think it's been said repeatedly that they do at least a bit) but they have to recognize that he's a major draw for other companies. He'd be 90-day-claused for sure!

The post above you states that Danielson can now work for other companies and you call gotta be a work? What kind of logic is that?

Danielson wouldn't dare offend any of his former employers just for an angle. It's officially legit now. Danielson might be back in the WWE soon, but for now the indies are going to have their hands on a hot piece of action.

[The Final Countdown]

If not I hear there is another company out there he used to work with that may give him a job taking down the ring or something :D
Nah, he's paid his dues. No ring crew duty for Daniel Bryan.

They COULD use somebody for Bobby Dempsey to squash in dark matches, though.

[Stennick]

So if Danielson returns will Davey Richards stop getting "best in the world" chants?

[MichiganHero]

The post above you states that Danielson can now work for other companies and you call gotta be a work? What kind of logic is that?

Danielson wouldn't dare offend any of his former employers just for an angle. It's officially legit now. Danielson might be back in the WWE soon, but for now the indies are going to have their hands on a hot piece of action.

I can actually see it.

The end of Richards/Black at DBD, whoever wins is celebrating a hard earned victory. Lights go out and the opening chorus of The Final Countdown hits. Mark-out moment for RoH in 2010 guaranteed.

[The Final Countdown]

So if Danielson returns will Davey Richards stop getting "best in the world" chants?
I don't know about that, but I do know this: if Danielson DOESN'T wear a tie in his return to the indies, he's a fool.

[Hyde Hill]

I can actually see it.

The end of Richards/Black at DBD, whoever wins is celebrating a hard earned victory. Lights go out and the opening chorus of The Final Countdown hits. Mark-out moment for RoH in 2010 guaranteed.

Not if TNA snaps him up first hehe. Storyline writes itself. Still means TNA could screw it up though. :p

[Hyde Hill]

I just watched Destination X; Before The Bell. It was okay. Not exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. It's a lot of flash with little substance. A lot of clichéd "TNA is great." "X-Division is great" "It's not about weight limits" with little focus on the characters. That's not necessarily a bad thing, I actually enjoyed watching it, and it gets the company over, but I'm not going to fall in love with a character because he works for a promotion I like. I need specifics.

I've seen Impact since they moved back to Thursdays. I wasn't impressed. I'll likely give them another shot in the near future, but I doubt it'll ever be my kind of thing.

Try the Bound For Glory one. The Des X was the least good imho. And yes it is not exactly what you where talking about but it is pretty near.

[Candyman]

I wonder how much longer until people accept that Danielson is gone?

However long it is until he IS gone - last I checked, it's still 100% work.

Come talk to me in 90 days when he's in a TNA ring. (in case you haven't noticed, that's not going to happen, because he's going to be "back" in the WWE by then)

Also, this is what Jim Ross had to say about the idea that somebody on Linda's campaign had anything to do with Bryan being released: "I've heard some BS in my life and my share of conspiracy theories during my 4 decades in the wrestling business but this one ranks right up there with some of the stupidest theories I've ever heard... "

[Stennick]

However long it is until he IS gone - last I checked, it's still 100% work.

Come talk to me in 90 days when he's in a TNA ring. (in case you haven't noticed, that's not going to happen, because he's going to be "back" in the WWE by then)"

So your saying he will be back in the WWE before 90 days from now?

Why would you think its a work? They didn't mention him being "fired" and the only mention of him is that he had remorse and was kicked out of the group. That is the only mention of his name since he was fired. So if its a "work" who are they working and what would the point be?

Now if by work you mean someone went to him and told him "this is just business and if you make smart choices these next 90 days about employment decisions we'd like to see you back here"

but thats not a work thats like saying Matt Hardy or any other number of guys that have been released and came back shortly after.

Enough with the crazy internet theories, the guy did something that was a HUGE no no in the WWE and has been since the night after Benoit was found dead. He was punished for it, move on.

[The Final Countdown]

Enough with the crazy internet theories, the guy did something that was a HUGE no no in the WWE and has been since the night after Benoit was found dead. He was punished for it, move on.
Except there have been strangling incidents in the E since then. I still say JBL choking out Jericho was more graphic--and it happened when Benoit's death was still a lot fresher in everyone's minds than it is today.

I'm not saying that means it's a work. I'm just saying that this "Benoit rule" doesn't seem to fit.

[Stennick]

It fits its just like everything else though. If you're big enough star wise to get away with it you can. Daniels was just a nobody and he was fed to the wolves. If Trips fails a drug test you think he's going to be sitting out for it? I doubt it he'll just get a movie role or "take some time off".

Thats just my view of it idk

[brashleyholland]

Isn't there a really easy way to solve this...someone get his agent on the phone and try to book him for whatever dates TNA films on (after his 90 days)?

If he's availible on those days, it'd be safe to say that he has no interest in going to TNA, therefor he's most likely still affiliated with WWE, in that he's not been released, or has been "released" as part of a work?

[LoganRodzen]

I certainly think he's been fired. Remember when Taz went back to ECW to do that one show with Mike Awesome? That was one of the rarest things Vinnie Mac has ever agreed to do. He keeps his people close to him and doesn't allow them to get outside of the WWE bubble. If Danielson is taking Indy bookings then he really is fired because I don't believe that McMahon is allowing one of his workers under contract to work somewhere other than where he can control everything.

I just don't see Vince McMahon allowing one of his workers to work for an Indy promotion while trying to further an angle with him being "fired". It doesn't make any sense that Vince would risk injury by allowing him to take those bookings. He's gone folks. :eek:

[The Final Countdown]

It fits its just like everything else though. If you're big enough star wise to get away with it you can. Daniels was just a nobody and he was fed to the wolves. If Trips fails a drug test you think he's going to be sitting out for it? I doubt it he'll just get a movie role or "take some time off".

Thats just my view of it idk
I'm sure the bigger stars can and do get more leeway, and almost assuredly would not have been fired were they in Bryan's shoes. That's not my point. The point is, maybe 7 months or so post-Benoit, there was a several minute angle centered around choking someone with an object. You can't make the argument that it was a guy who didn't know about a restriction and crossed the line, because it was the main point of the angle. Meaning it had to have been pre-approved. And even if it weren't, the angle went on for several minutes. If a rule were being broken, surely they would have cut away at some point. So either they didn't add this "Benoit rule" until more than 7 months after he died, or it simply doesn't exist.

This certainly doesn't prove that it's a work, by any means. I just think it makes the "Benoit rule" explanation pretty unlikely. Assuming the firing is legit, I'd say the story about a complaint from an outside source makes much more sense.

[Stennick]

So Danielson is booked for EVOLVE and DGUSA the next night that didn't take long. If possible this guy might be getting paid MORE for that buzz he has. You know internet fans are going to be lined up to get a glimpse of Daniels after all this crap.

[Teh_Showtime]

doesnt matter, he will still wrestle and probably even in the WWE after this boils over. It's obvious that they respect him but he was just caught red handed.

[GDE71]

I read somewhere that it wasn't the Benoit choking thing being the reason, but what he did wasn't PG. They are really trying to protect and keep the PG as it means more $$$ for WWE.

[Hyde Hill]

Defining comment from one of them that basically caused me to dismiss their opinion in this area altogether. When Hogan & Bischoff took over TNA: "Maybe now they'll do more stuff outside the ring cuz their people sure can't wrestle." "Yeah, you know they have to be lame when their champion steals the finisher from a DIVA." Now, I have my own beefs with TNA but that....that basically ended all conversation on wrestling. I won't even broach the subject with them anymore (besides the multitude of times they text or email me asking me for TEW tips. Apparently I was wrong, running SWF isn't idiotproof).





I hope you set them straight there. I know you don't/didn't find TNA recomandable but I so hate MichTaker McRippingoffTNAiscool for stuff like that. And eventhough AJ does not mind her doing it, badly, it still pisses me off. Her response of it is just a move is also bs. Lets have her do the Tombstone Piledriver next time and let her see if Mark is happy.

[fatallylost]

Just to add onto the Danielson firing being a total work.

He will be wrestling at PWG's 7th Anniversary show July 30th.

[1234]

Bryan looks like he will be busy, PWG, DG USA and Evolve have already announced him as returning...now hopefully he will return to ROH. And then return to WWE in a few months and kick Cena's f*****g head in, again.

[djthefunkchris]

Well, yes, we could go point by point and find varying examples of just 'terrible.'

But overall what I'm trying to say is that peope who hyperanalyze the WWE are missing the point. THEY are not the target audience.

Net fans criticizing the WWE is the wrestling equivalent of listening to bubble gum pop music and criticizing the lyrics.

I have a better analogy, at least to me or from my point of view.

As you know I used to DJ quite often, and I remember there was always some "other" dj that was younger, or was determined to proove themselves better.... why? So they could work on the night I built up. I built it up from scratch (very few people to start with, built up to as many people the club could hold). They didn't want Saturday, they wanted Friday (the night I built). They have "better/Newer" Music then me (not true, but they actually believed this).

Compare that to some statements that were made "If TNA and WWE switched channels" etc... giving TNA an audience that is already made... Would it work? Yes, for about two weeks.

I finally get fed up with management, leave the club and let these "better/newer/younger" guys take over Friday night. Within' two weeks major fights broke out, within' two months only a couple dozen people even bothered showing up...

Meanwhile at a different club I went to, that had been dead for 10 years before I stepped in, asked me to play Thursday through Sunday.... Biggest crowd ended up on Sunday (My OLDSCHOOL NIGHT), and I built both Friday and Saturday up about the same as it was at the last club before I left. Even thursdays ended up being good.

Now my bigger point: Yes, I play older music in general during peak hours... Not older as in years older, but a few months, current ranked music instead of the newer stuff that just come out. I have both, and I put in the newer stuff earlier in the night, to see how it goes over. When I feel the time is right it becomes part of my "Main" set. If it never catch's, I never put it in there. Some claim that they know about "so much more music out there" but in all actuallity, they don't have 1/10th the music I do, and I have 90% of what they have. So it comes down to an opinion more then anything. Of course at younger ages, your going to like the and want to here the "underground" stuff that hasn't made it on the mainstream radio stations yet, but in all actuallity your a minority in the club (21 to 25 yo). The rest of the club wants to here their older favorites as well as their new favorites, and most of the newer stuff is going to be stuff proven to work already (meaning not just released last week).

Going back to WWE/TNA/ROH or anyone else, your looking at bassically the same thing. This company does this, they are fresher, they aren't as stale, etc... if only they were able to have a Night like WWE has (forget that WWE BUILT THAT THEMSELVES). Even WWE messed up in the past like this, taking over a time slot that I believe Georgia Championship Wrestling was on, and calling it WWF championship Wrestling. We all hated THAT show, as it was trying to be the other, didn't go over, didn't work very well, etc. That actually leads up to Turner, etc.. but that's another story.

As usual, Peter is right on target.
/nod.
And WOW do I think you'd be wrong. Or at least incredibly disappointed.

For all of it's criticisms, the E has been the industry standard since the early 80s.

They took over the market during the Rock n Wrestling Era despite the fact that their in-ring product was honestly not that great for the most part..definitely not what net fans would look at today as being 'quality'

The Attitude Era was based more on characters than ring work (ironically the WCW's greatest success was also based more on characters and names than ringwork, although they did a great job of blending things)

And today, they draw far more fans than other companies despite formulaic and largely predictable matches.

I think net fans should realize that - as crazy as it sounds - most people DON"T watch wrestling for the actual ..y'know...wrestling. There's a segment of the audience that does...but most people want the soap opera.

That's it.



Even if it IS pandering to the lowest common denominator, who cares? It works. They are a publicly traded company with a responsibility to generate profits, not to please wrestling nerds. ;)

I think kayfabe is an impossible dream, especially with the advent of MMA.
Even going back 40 years, Kafabe may not have been a term everyone was "up on", but as far as people thinking it was real or not, really.... I can speak for up to 30 years ago... and NO, we didn't. Not the majority by any means. The people that watched Wrestling, of course some of them might have believed more then the people that didn't watch, but that's true today, even with it being common knowledge.

Well Peter you are ignoring the kind of cyclical effect that the WWE/F's dominance has had over the long amount of years as to what "wrestling" fans want as what the E gives is perceived as to be what wrestling is and vice versa. The only time they did a true change in formula and product was when they where realistically challenged.

That same problem would also be one of the things that would have them win the ratings etc for quite a while if Linsolv's plan would be implemented.

WWE/F = wrestling = WWE/F = wrestling ad nauseam.

I also do not think that the most on these boards want or expect the WWE to become a niche entertainment product like let's say Firefly, but would like it to be more like say X-Files or at least Friends and not the Power Rangers Power Hour.

I don't know about anyone else, but Power Rangers is what it has been for-ever. People like Hogan and Andre, Steamboat, Flair, etc.. They all felt like that back then as well as much as today.

I would tune out if it was Friends... X-Files is alright as long as it's not the whole show. Give me the over-the top gimmicks/characters and give me some silly storylines that make some sense, and I'll be happier then an episode of Friends would ever do for me. It's wrestling, it's not real, but it's not supposed to be "wimpy" either.

[Linsolv]

You're right. When you're right, you're right, and in this case you're right.

Almost. WWE built up their empire in a time when pro wrestling wasn't fake, and to my knowledge wasn't the butt end of a joke. I'm no expert, but I think it'd be fair to say that they had a somewhat easier road to success than a TNA or an ROH.

Now, TNA has their national cable show that they're still dropping the ball with, and I guess you could argue that ROH has their chance with HD Net. But when my mother tells me the main event on RAW because she was watching the US Open and happened to see the commercial for it 10 times, that's really not the same as having a premium channel with a weekly show and no real advertising.

On the other hand, iMPACT is pretty solidly advertised and nobody watches it because they keep dropping the ball with good workers and [potentially] good storylines.

[juggaloninjalee]

The WWE or TNA need Paul Heyman to book for them. If he was booking either one of them we would have great wrestling and storylines!

[Tha Black Phenom]

we should start a group

Fans Against PG!

...yeah, good luck with that

Is it just me or is this whole story line beginning to reek of WCW? People being fired in reality, people being fired in kayfabe, the fans not being completely sure the company isn't trying to run an elaborate work on everyone, stupid car stunts, bad acting, bad writing, etc.

It must be just you. Even IF as many people appreciated an angle in WCW which caught one's eye, IWC or casual fan, and did something which we were intently waiting to find the outcome, it's a bit unfair since we know the result of those turds of storyline outcomes. The chapter isn't even closed on this one. And bad acting in a wrestling show... hardly noteworthy, now is it.

Would you prefer the usual route of WWE booking either the 'predictable' storylines which aren't really predictable in reality because everyone in the IWC is gushing out loads of potential outcomes weeks in advance

or the storylines WWE actually gets to slam a twist on to fool the audience, in which in turn some folks in the IWC will whine about because it's not what they expected/not their cup of tea?


Some folks in the IWC are just unable to sit down, and appreciate what is given to them - fair enough if you don't like a lot of it. It's not like you have to or anything. Just don't throw everything the WWE throws our way away like used toys back in the toybox. And about these people I seen posting earlier that we're "trying to get back in the WWE" but because of recent events couldn't... if one guy - as awesome as he is, I got a lot of love for D to the B - deters you from keeping onto probably the hottest angle so far in the year, then you're not really trying to get back in. I mean hell, I see some people dismiss the angle 30 minutes into the show, of course I didn't expect otherwise though.

That being said, I was disappointed that the locker room somewhat emptied to save Cena and chase off the NXT rookies as it just seemed a lazy throwback to the old WCW/ECW Invasion angle. I was hoping there'd be some reason as to why Cena, Punk & co were left to the wolves last week... pros froze backstage watching, heels felt Cena had it coming to him, Orton decided it "wasn't his fight", Mark Henry was busy eating muffins, whatever. Instead if just sticks out as a loophole in the story that creative weren't bothered about covering, which is a shame considering they pretty effectively signed Danielson out of the story.

Beyond that, although vehicular assualts are hardly new ground in wrestling, it did leave a decent hook for the ppv and the continuation of the angle. Plus Barrett further sold himself as an effective leader of the group.

This is another problem. People constantly comparing to things of the past. I must be one of the few who hasn't compared this to the Invasion angle, at all. It's something new, and different. I won't say the word 'exciting' yet, don't know where it takes us. But let's leave the old stuff out for once. Anything groundbreaking the WWE does forever on will be compared to some degree to X angle we saw back in our heyday. It's kinda unfair to them, to a certain extent you should see WWE has made full circle.

[Slim Jim]

Fans Against PG!

FAP? Well, I guess that fits the non-PG mantra.

[sebsplex]

This is another problem. People constantly comparing to things of the past. I must be one of the few who hasn't compared this to the Invasion angle, at all. It's something new, and different. I won't say the word 'exciting' yet, don't know where it takes us. But let's leave the old stuff out for once. Anything groundbreaking the WWE does forever on will be compared to some degree to X angle we saw back in our heyday. It's kinda unfair to them, to a certain extent you should see WWE has made full circle.

I didn't compare the whole angle, I compared one segment - various wrestlers defending the RAW turf and assisting Cena when nobody bothered to the previous week when the NXT rookies trashed the ring. It felt like the WWE just plugged in a segment from the old Invasion angle instead of (as I would have preferred) built on or provided some explanation for why nobody from the back intervened last week. It felt very out of place. I don't find it unfair on the WWE to call them on brazenly skipping over loopholes in a story.

[Self]

Sure, nobody came to save Cena the week before, but how many of them were even in the building? If I were a professional fighter, I'm probably not going to stick around much longer once my fight was over. Shower. Change. Get some medical attention, then hit the bars to get my celebratory drink on (hey, it's my fantasy, so I get to win). So I don't think it's that odd nobody came to save Cena. They'd already gone home.

Of course, this is all 'in storyline' stuff, and they could have mentioned it I guess.

[crownsy]

I didn't compare the whole angle, I compared one segment - various wrestlers defending the RAW turf and assisting Cena when nobody bothered to the previous week when the NXT rookies trashed the ring. It felt like the WWE just plugged in a segment from the old Invasion angle instead of (as I would have preferred) built on or provided some explanation for why nobody from the back intervened last week. It felt very out of place. I don't find it unfair on the WWE to call them on brazenly skipping over loopholes in a story.

Except that, since the angle is just beginning, you have no idea whether they will address it yet or not.

Thats why I let angles get rolling before I start to judge.

[d_w_w]

It pains me to see professional wrestlers referred to as professional fighters.

Aren't the catchphrases "WWE superstars" and "sports entertainment" these days? And for the most part, they don't seem to refer to themselves as "fighters", they think of themselves as "wrestlers", yes? Some might say that this is a meaningless distinction (but those people would be wrong). This is why the typical Cena-esque promo that says "[current feuding partner] Oh, this isn't going to be a wrestling match and I'm not going to try to pin you or win by count out, this is going to be a fight and I'm going to beat you until I'm good and satisfied!" is supposedly meaningful.

A fight, in the context of kayfabe professional wrestling, is more violent, more serious, and generally uglier than a wrestling match.

Not to discredit your response though. I think all of what you said holds true and is pretty much how I see things. WWE superstar A shows up, performs, leaves. NXT folks trash the set, choke people with ties, etc. WWE superstar A would potentially like to help, but is too busy talking to a cute redhead at the bar down the street.

[sebsplex]

Sure, nobody came to save Cena the week before, but how many of them were even in the building? If I were a professional fighter, I'm probably not going to stick around much longer once my fight was over. Shower. Change. Get some medical attention, then hit the bars to get my celebratory drink on (hey, it's my fantasy, so I get to win). So I don't think it's that odd nobody came to save Cena. They'd already gone home.

Of course, this is all 'in storyline' stuff, and they could have mentioned it I guess.

It's a minor point from a wider post numerous pages back. I'm digging the angle, just eh, I have issues when it comes to angles/segments where wrestlers seem to abandon their usual characters. It's a bit like the TNA Ranking segment a couple of weeks ago where all the wrestlers lined up in suits including the violently unstable Samoa Joe who just stood there passively. I like there to be a reason. It's hardly a gamebreaker, but not even Bret Hart the RAW GM stuck his head out from behind the curtain last week - seems a big swing to staunch defense of turf this week. Tbh if Cole had had a throwaway line like "we could have done with these guys last week", that would have done, just no-selling it seemed strange. I guess it's just me, but one of the first things I thought when the cavalry charged in was during that segment - where were these guys last week? On the flipside, it was a nice touch how they addressed Sheamus getting involved.

Not to discredit your response though. I think all of what you said holds true and is pretty much how I see things. WWE superstar A shows up, performs, leaves. NXT folks trash the set, choke people with ties, etc. WWE superstar A would potentially like to help, but is too busy talking to a cute redhead at the bar down the street.

That's why in TEW you should always set your backstage rules to insure that performers remain on premises for the duration of the show... you never know when you might need them. :p

[Self]

It pains me to see professional wrestlers referred to as professional fighters.

Aren't the catchphrases "WWE superstars" and "sports entertainment" these days? And for the most part, they don't seem to refer to themselves as "fighters", they think of themselves as "wrestlers", yes? Some might say that this is a meaningless distinction (but those people would be wrong). This is why the typical Cena-esque promo that says "[current feuding partner] Oh, this isn't going to be a wrestling match and I'm not going to try to pin you or win by count out, this is going to be a fight and I'm going to beat you until I'm good and satisfied!" is supposedly meaningful.

A fight, in the context of kayfabe professional wrestling, is more violent, more serious, and generally uglier than a wrestling match.

Not to discredit your response though. I think all of what you said holds true and is pretty much how I see things. WWE superstar A shows up, performs, leaves. NXT folks trash the set, choke people with ties, etc. WWE superstar A would potentially like to help, but is too busy talking to a cute redhead at the bar down the street.

I tend to use 'fighter' as a way to differentiate between wrestling performers and wrestling characters. The term 'wrestler' to me has become on the level of 'actor' or 'stuntman', describing the performer, not the role. So I'll often use 'fighter' instead to really make clear I'm talking about the kayfabe character.

Although I will say that to me 'fighter' is a correct term to some extent. In kayfabe, wrestling is a fighting style, akin to (yet fictionally vastly superior to) Muay Thia, BJJ etc. They fight. They're fighters.

I actually really dislike the whole "This isn't going to be a wrestling match, this is going to be a fight" escalation. Not entirely sure why. Perhaps I think it devalues or exposes 'wrestling'. Or perhaps because in execution there's little difference between the two. Perhaps because I already consider wrestling matches to be fights. I don't know, always bothered me.

[sebsplex]

Except that, since the angle is just beginning, you have no idea whether they will address it yet or not.

Thats why I let angles get rolling before I start to judge.

Except that, it was a comment on this week's show. They didn't address it this week, that seemed strange, thus why I commented on it.

[LoganRodzen]

I thought this was interesting...

Dave Meltzer of the Wrestling Observer asked Batista why he left WWE. Batista said he was sick and tired of WWE's direction and had to get out. He said that it wasn't the kind of wrestling he grew up watching and wasn't the product that he had always enjoyed.

So obviously Batista was pissed about how his Last Man Standing match with John Cena ended just like I was. The duct tape around the ring post was the dumbest wrestling finish I've ever seen. That's not me being over dramatic either - I thought it was the worst booking WWE has ever done.

[Jaysin]

I thought this was interesting...



So obviously Batista was pissed about how his Last Man Standing match with John Cena ended just like I was. The duct tape around the ring post was the dumbest wrestling finish I've ever seen. That's not me being over dramatic either - I thought it was the worst booking WWE has ever done.

In my opinion the worst booking WWE has ever done was a few years ago it was Orton facing Cena for the title ON A PAY PER VIEW, and around 7 minutes into the match gets himself intentionally DQ'ed. I was so mad that I wasted my money on that garbage.

If it wasn't for MVP and Matt Hardy vs Deuce n Domino, Lance Cade and Trevor Murdoch vs London and Kendrick, and CM Punk vs Elijah Burke that PPV would have been a total waste.

[LoganRodzen]

In my opinion the worst booking WWE has ever done was a few years ago it was Orton facing Cena for the title ON A PAY PER VIEW, and around 7 minutes into the match gets himself intentionally DQ'ed. I was so mad that I wasted my money on that garbage.

If it wasn't for MVP and Matt Hardy vs Deuce n Domino, Lance Cade and Trevor Murdoch vs London and Kendrick, and CM Punk vs Elijah Burke that PPV would have been a total waste.

I didn't see that show but I can't say I'm surprised. WWE has always used the "excuse" that you'll never go home upset after one of their shows like MMA or boxing (that might end in the first round). Because it's predetermined and they can guarantee a good show. Well, that example you just gave of it ending after 7 minutes with a DQ is them screwing over everybody who paid for the show and going against what they've preached in the past.

I hate it when PPV matches don't have a definitive finish because isn't that the point of them being on PPV in the first place? I don't mind stories being continued on PPV (if it's good) but the things WWE does sometimes are mind-boggling.

I honestly feel WWE did that finish so that Batista would look extremely weak due to him leaving. In TEW terms - they buried him. I'm not a fan of Batista so it's not like I'm upset about all of it, but I like him more than I did after reading he left because he didn't like the direction (even though he was making millions of dollars).

[Hyde Hill]

I don't know about anyone else, but Power Rangers is what it has been for-ever. People like Hogan and Andre, Steamboat, Flair, etc.. They all felt like that back then as well as much as today.

I would tune out if it was Friends... X-Files is alright as long as it's not the whole show. Give me the over-the top gimmicks/characters and give me some silly storylines that make some sense, and I'll be happier then an episode of Friends would ever do for me. It's wrestling, it's not real, but it's not supposed to be "wimpy" either.

You guys are kinda taking the analogy too literally. All three shows had long and mainstream runs but the writing of all three shows was of a different level. Power Rangers mediocre, friends decent, x files good. What I meant with it is that one can be "mainstream" and successful at the same time and deliver better "quality" and not necessarily go for a niche product. I can substitute those three shows for a lot of different ones and it is the same point. It was meant as a general analogy not specifically friends or x files or power rangers.

[Candyman]

In case there was any doubt about Bryan Danielson's release being a work, WWE is asking fans if they want him back on their facebook account.

And Wrestlezone is reporting Chris Jericho was originally planned to be the leader of NXT, but now that they're unhappy with him because of his game show, it might be Triple H.

[The Final Countdown]

And Wrestlezone is reporting Chris Jericho was originally planned to be the leader of NXT, but now that they're unhappy with him because of his game show, it might be Triple H.
BLEH.

[The Celt]

/facepalm]

[Wrestling Century]

Chris Jericho has a game show?

[Stennick]

Again this is WrestleZone so lets not take this as the almighty word of God or anything.

[MattitudeV2]

Chris Jericho has a game show?

Yes, Downfall on ABC!!!

[Self]

Triple H is no worse than Jericho in that spot. Both would totally over-shadow Barrett & Co, and lead to Main Events we've seen a hundred times before. Wade Barrett should be the leader of the NXT Rejects. Simple as that.

On the NXT topic, I saw the Kaval/Rlley match. Good stuff. Kaval got his stuff in, and for once it didn't look like two rookies trying to wrestle. Perfectly acceptable wrestling, and I liked the kick Michelle taught him. He's learning fast.

[The Shape]

Jericho would be amazing at it. Triple H...no, I think he'd take the spotlight away from them too much. Cole is still the best shout.

[Jaysin]

Random question: Why is everyone so high on Percy Watson? Are we watching the same person? The goofy Dudley-Urkle amalgam glasses and a goofy look on his face constantly really equals charisma? I don't see it.

Kaval and Alex Riley had a pretty good one this week though. Glad they're letting Kaval be Low Ki.

LayCool really really took away from the match though. Their awful mic skills and complete lack of charisma really didn't lend well to being guest commentators.

[alden]

Random question: Why is everyone so high on Percy Watson? Are we watching the same person? The goofy Dudley-Urkle amalgam glasses and a goofy look on his face constantly really equals charisma? I don't see it.

Kaval and Alex Riley had a pretty good one this week though. Glad they're letting Kaval be Low Ki.

LayCool really really took away from the match though. Their awful mic skills and complete lack of charisma really didn't lend well to being guest commentators.

I am not sure why i like watson so much but i really do. Look at the guys build. He has typical bad ass writen all over him but he plays a dorky guy. I mean come on......when does that happen in wwe any more. It would be like a great wrestler play a mentaly challenged person .........no wait......i mean it would be like a mexican worker playing a white racist.........hmmmm no i don't see any of thoes two things work....lol

I don't know if watson has any real charisma to be honest its just something diffrent for me.

[Jaysin]

I am not sure why i like watson so much but i really do. Look at the guys build. He has typical bad ass writen all over him but he plays a dorky guy. I mean come on......when does that happen in wwe any more. It would be like a great wrestler play a mentaly challenged person .........no wait......i mean it would be like a mexican worker playing a white racist.........hmmmm no i don't see any of thoes two things work....lol

I don't know if watson has any real charisma to be honest its just something diffrent for me.

The something different probably explains it. I dunno, I don't hate him. I mean, I've only seen him wrestle once. I don't know how good/bad he is in the ring quite yet. He may grow on me, but I hope he's given a chance to grow on me. I'm becoming a little more open minded as I get older(I'm only 23, but still). I try not to let first impressions last

[fatallylost]

Random question: Why is everyone so high on Percy Watson? Are we watching the same person? The goofy Dudley-Urkle amalgam glasses and a goofy look on his face constantly really equals charisma? I don't see it.

Kaval and Alex Riley had a pretty good one this week though. Glad they're letting Kaval be Low Ki.

LayCool really really took away from the match though. Their awful mic skills and complete lack of charisma really didn't lend well to being guest commentators.

So far I'm with you. The look on his face seems to be a cross between someone who just smelled a rotten fart, and something Eddie Murphy used to do on SNL 230 years ago.

[djthefunkchris]

You're right. When you're right, you're right, and in this case you're right.

Almost. WWE built up their empire in a time when pro wrestling wasn't fake, and to my knowledge wasn't the butt end of a joke. I'm no expert, but I think it'd be fair to say that they had a somewhat easier road to success than a TNA or an ROH.

Even if you go back historically, this isn't true.... At least not with the WWE/F. Firstly you have to realise that Pro-Wrestling wasn't real in the 20th century, not just the 21st. At the turn of the century, people were so upset about it that there was a true possibility of it perishing. Rumor's were abound that Pro-Wrestling might be fixed... then the Gold Dust Trio formed.

That promotion was formed by Ed "Strangler" Lewis, Billy Sandow and Joseph "Toots" Mondt. I think you can find these guys in Tommy's MOD :).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_Dust_Trio I found this link not long ago, don't know how it evaded me before, but it's much easier to just link that and give the "brief" version of what I want to say.

Around 1919, wrestling matches were long and as far as fans were concerned, dragged out tremendously (like 60 minute match's). The only match's that did great were pre-determined ones, and so that is where "Slam Bang Western Style Wrestling" come into existance.. They started booking, and finishers and routines were carefully planned by Toots. The Gold Dust Trio broke up in a power struggle, but Toots moved on.

To shorten the whole story, Toots eventually makes a deal with "BOXING" Promoter Vince McMahan Sr., and they made the World Wide Wrestling Federation.

They broke away from the NWA in 1963, although on good terms, and were not seen as the enemy at this time period. Jim Crockett Promotions actually invaded WWWF's territory (In other words, WWWF was invaded before they invaded anyone else... Something that no one ever seems to talk about).

However, the WWF never started going all out until the 1980's as far as trying to go National (viewed Nationally on TV, etc). It wasn't "Easier" back then, you didn't have alot of national area's you could venture in.... Now even really small stations can be seen nationally.

The fact is, Vince Jr. took it where no Wrestling promotion has ever been, and they are now the leader's with the exception of a few years where WCW gave them a run for their money.

WCW is exactly the perfect example of showing how it is possible to like something besides WWE/F television, and you can succeed if your willing to actually give the people what they want to watch, not what YOU think they should be watching.

My whole example of my personal life, was to show that just because someone else thinks they could just take over "IF" they had everything the other (WWE) company has, doesnt' mean they could. You can have the best Network, the best Time Frame, the best of everything and fail misserably if your not willing to actually pay attention to the people, instead of saying "This is how it should be done" and thinking you can force people to watch what you think is the more "Mature" or "Better" way of doing things.

It's obvious that for a fake sport, people want to see "Cartoony" type things, not someone trying to act as though everything is real. WWE has made their whole company on this princeple. I remember an Interview with Vince a while back when he just plainly said something that I thought made alot of sense... You can't act as though your audience is not in the know, when most of them are indeed in the know. You don't have to tell them, they know. You don't have to make things look real to tell the story. You just have to have characters that look like they think it's real. Your fans know it's real.


The whole thing about Kafabe, is that a certain number of people thought they knew something the rest of the world did not... and that they were in the "in" crowd that knew that wrestling was fake. This is just silly....

People that didn't think wrestling was fake were ussually people that loved wrestling, and only a very small percent of them actually believed. There was never a "small" group of people in the know, everyone has thought Pro-Wrestling was fake for almost a century. I knew it when I was no more then 8, My dad knew, my whole family knew... My neigbors knew, etc. There was always that one friend, or those couple of people that "thought" it was real, but in no way was it looked at as legit as say Boxing or Football, even 20 or 30 years before the 1980's.

Now, TNA has their national cable show that they're still dropping the ball with, and I guess you could argue that ROH has their chance with HD Net. But when my mother tells me the main event on RAW because she was watching the US Open and happened to see the commercial for it 10 times, that's really not the same as having a premium channel with a weekly show and no real advertising.

Most people know about TNA Wrestling "now"... Hogan made sure of it. People are just not liking something about it... The majority probably never will. At some point fans of TNA are going to have to just admit that the rest of the world does not agree with what they think wrestling should be... no matter if some think it's the "bestest" or not. I watched a couple of ROH shows because of all the hype about them here on this board, for example.... My over-all thoughts (at that time) was... Wow, looks like a circus formed a wrestling promotion... Not a bad thing since that is where it's roots come from, carny talk vs. kafabe talk... bassically the same thing. But people pay to see the midget take on the giant, they watch gymnast perform at the olympics and school auditoriums (their kids school
).
On the other hand, iMPACT is pretty solidly advertised and nobody watches it because they keep dropping the ball with good workers and [potentially] good storylines.

Everyone says "dropping the ball", but I think they have found their niche... They don't ever have to get better ratings, because they chose who they wish to appease, and for the most part they do. It's just not as many people as the people wish it were.

Personally, I find TNA fun to watch most of the time... as opposed to a few years ago the first time I tried watching them. I think they can expand and grow, I just don't think they ever will because they don't think that far ahead. One person being signed will change up everything on the show so they can showcase that ONE person. It's how they do it everytime, and there will always be that ONE person that signs in the middle of when people actually are starting to get into it.

[tad091]

Bryan Danielson just tweeted this:

Looks like my return to the independents will be next Saturday for @chikarapro in Detroit, MI. I'm stoked to be working with Chikara again!

[alden]

Bryan Danielson just tweeted this:

Looks like my return to the independents will be next Saturday for @chikarapro in Detroit, MI. I'm stoked to be working with Chikara again!

:)........really is all i can say lol

[Linsolv]

Bryan Danielson just tweeted this:

Looks like my return to the independents will be next Saturday for @chikarapro in Detroit, MI. I'm stoked to be working with Chikara again!

Hey! I'm IN Detroit! Too bad, man!

[Teh_Showtime]

:)........really is all i can say lol

who will it be against?

[Slagaholic]

Only in the IWC do 1,000,000 weekly viewers = nobody watches it.

[alden]

who will it be against?

Parden? lol........i could tell you all but then i would have to kill you.....and since gdf is vied by thousend of people........and well i would have to kill each and everyone of them.......i just can't kill off that many fans ;)

in all honesty though......that is a question for mike ;)

[Linsolv]

Only in the IWC do 1,000,000 weekly viewers = nobody watches it.

That's not my IWC kicking in. It's drawing, what, a 0.8? That's not especially good. A year ago they were pulling a 1.0! It's a lot of people if I were to meet them all, sure, but statistically they're doing poorly.

[Slagaholic]

A .8 on cable is still a good rating. They're doing poorly compared to Raw (one of the highest rated cable television shows). But compared to other cable TV shows, they're doing very well.

[CQI13]

Same could have been said about Nitro on it's dying days.

[jwt13]

But they are pulling 0.8's up agianst the NBA Finals and tonight they were up agianst game 7 so this week if they get a .8 it will be great compared to how many people watch game 7 of any sports playoffs.

[Stennick]

NItro wasn't killed for low ratings, Nitro had higher ratings than that when it was dying. In fact it had almost three times that. The lowest rating they had was a 2.1 in 2001. Six years after they debuted. They highest they had in 1995 was a 2.9 and the lowest they had in their white hot year of 96 was still a 1.9

So in their dying year they nearly tripled the TNA rating and in one of their hottest years they still beat it by 2 and a half.

My point isn't "hahaha omg tna suks". My point is most network or cable television shows would kill to have the numbers they started with at the end of their run. Now sure the ideal is to have higher but to have not lost any viewers (roughly) from when you first started is pretty impressive.

Nitro was cancelled because they were owned by AOL and Time Warner. The merger happened and nobody wanted wrestling on their television shows anymore. With WCW bleeding money it gave them the excuse they needed to cancel it.

So Nitro being cancelled had nothing to do with ratings and everything to do with finances and politics.

[LoganRodzen]

Same could have been said about Nitro on it's dying days.

Very true. Nitro was still doing OK when it was dying but if the network doesn't want to air it it doesn't matter. I don't see Spike TV getting fed up with TNA anytime soon though. Their product is exactly what that network is all about (18-34 males). I really don't like seeing glass in a wrestling ring though. That's garbage in my opinion.

[Stennick]

It is garbage, I'm all for a lot of things but glass in a ring makes me want to change the channel.

[Slagaholic]

Very true. Nitro was still doing OK when it was dying but if the network doesn't want to air it it doesn't matter. I don't see Spike TV getting fed up with TNA anytime soon though. Their product is exactly what that network is all about (18-34 males). I really don't like seeing glass in a wrestling ring though. That's garbage in my opinion.

I don't mind a little garbage as long as it is used to tell a story. The glass tonight helped tell a story and give re-birth to 'The Monster' Abyss

If it helps matters it was sugar glass that was in the ring.

[LoganRodzen]

I don't mind a little garbage as long as it is used to tell a story. The glass tonight helped tell a story and give re-birth to 'The Monster' Abyss

If it helps matters it was sugar glass that was in the ring.

I thought everything they did besides the glass got the point across fine. I didn't think it was needed whether it was real glass or not.

[Slagaholic]

Part of Abyss' gimmick has been that he does that type of stuff. After becoming a teddy bear for half a year, I think it's understandable that they remind the fans of what a heel Abyss means. Was it a bit far? Yes. Was it so far that TNA should be chastised? Not yet.

Now if they have a pane of glass death match on the next episode of Impact or are putting people on top of glass every week, I'll call foul.

[alden]

abyss is a bump machine. I remember a few years ago he was attacked with barbwire on tv and got a HUGE cut on his arm......it was gushing from what i remember. I remember his angle with mitchel being his father was spot after spot week after week. I think abyss should be using glass...babr wire....tumb tacks......and all that stuff.

[Stennick]

How is being cut with sharp objects a bump machine? A bump machine is (usually) a smaller guy that spends his time being knocked around the ring by (usually) a bigger guy.

Shannon Moore on Smackdown in 03 was a bump machine. Shawn Michaels in the earlier Undertaker matches in 97 was a bump machine.

Abyss being cut with sharp objects isn't even a bump.

[borman_48]

I thought everything they did besides the glass got the point across fine. I didn't think it was needed whether it was real glass or not.

I think they wanted Abyss to use some sort of weaponry/big weapon spot to make a statement; his old "monster" side is back. In terms of useing the black hole slam, it was glass or thumbtacks. A table is too high for that move. And I doubt Anderson would use thumbtacks. Sugar glass is something i could possibly see. Honestly, that made a bigger statement than throwing Hardy off the stage. Hell, Hardy would jump himself off the stage. Slamming Anderson onto the glass made a statement that hitting him over the head with a chair wouldn't have done as well.

That said... if I dont see glass for another good long while I certainly wont miss it.

[LoganRodzen]

No doubt it was a big statement and a heck of a way to say goodbye to the crap Abyss character. The question I have is... did Kane need stuff like glass to get over as The Big Red Monster?

I guess what I didn't like about it is how when I was freakin' 9-14 years old watching the Attitude Era you wouldn't have seen glass - if I had it probably would have scared me away. A lot of the vulgar stuff they did I didn't even understand so that's well and fine. If someone around that age was flipping through the channel before bedtime they'd be pretty scared to tune back in regularly because that's pretty scary stuff. I think TNA can have a younger audience than it does and that would help them, but things like that can't happen.

Just so you guys understand that my folks weren't loony tunes, they didn't let me stay up late to watch wrestling - I had a TV in my room that I shared with my older brother (4 years older than me, my oldest brother had his own room), he was a wrestling fanatic so even though he kept the volume down and had the TV pointed "away from me" as my parents ordered, I would stay up and watch anyway. :)

There's the argument about how WWE being PG sucks, but TV-14 is what TNA should strive for every week in my opinion. Don't stray from the 18-34, but don't exclude the younger audience who can contribute A LOT... especially considering they just signed that new deal with Jakks and they have a ton of new toys and crap to sell.

[Teh_Showtime]

and on top of that, if you keep the kids hooked, then by the time they become adults with jobs, they'll buy your product. Thats the one thing WWE knows and they are doing it as we speak

[Stennick]

and on top of that, if you keep the kids hooked, then by the time they become adults with jobs, they'll buy your product. Thats the one thing WWE knows and they are doing it as we speak

Actually I think you got that backwards. When kids become adults with real jobs (most) of them turn to other things other than pro wrestling and paying 40 bucks a month to watch some entertainment.

Especially with the UFC, movie prices going up etc.

When presumabley most of us were in our teens and early twenties the "golden years" of 95-01 money didn't mean as much to us. We didn't have house payments, and car payments, and families to feed. Now that (most) of us are in our late twenties, early to mid 30's we have these things and so we've moved on from watching a form of entertainment that in order to fully enjoy it you need to throw down 40-60 bucks a month.

They hooked us as kids in the 80s and then followed us all the way until we stopped watching the product. When that happened they reverted back to the kids and are following the same formula again.

In 2000 RAW was getting 6.0's and Nitro was still getting close to 3.0's. So thats a total of a 9.0 rating, skip ahead ten years and they have one third of that. Other things have been factored in but a large part of that audience they "hooked' as kids have moved on.

[Teh_Showtime]

touche but the marketing is still genious. Kids are the most important thing for WWE because kids will want to see the shows which means adults also have to pay to see the shows. That's a 2 for 1 right there as opposed to having a sitter for the kids while you watch it with a few buddies or something

[LoganRodzen]

Even though I dislike the direction of WWE's product I can't say I outright hate it because I've been able to bring my six year old nephew to two house shows and he's had a blast. I'm not sure if I had more fun watching the show or watching him boo who he hated and cheer who he liked. It was fun seeing his reaction to everything. I took him to a TNA house show (when AJ was face) and it was cool to see him notice the six-sided ring and the differences between the two companies at such a young age.

It's embarrassing to admit, but he's way smarter than I was at his age. And kids in todays world communicate nonstop with each other (more so than the 90's kids) so if you can get a couple of kids hooked on TNA then you can really get some usage out of the younger demographic.

Feels weird to be talking about TNA so much in a WWE thread, but there's been bits and pieces of both. :p

[Self]

Random question: Why is everyone so high on Percy Watson? Are we watching the same person? The goofy Dudley-Urkle amalgam glasses and a goofy look on his face constantly really equals charisma? I don't see it.

The something different probably explains it. I dunno, I don't hate him. I mean, I've only seen him wrestle once. I don't know how good/bad he is in the ring quite yet. He may grow on me, but I hope he's given a chance to grow on me. I'm becoming a little more open minded as I get older(I'm only 23, but still). I try not to let first impressions last

Personally, how "good/bad he is in the ring" has nothing to do with how much I like a guy. I appreciate good wrestling skills, but they're by no means a pre-requisite to my support. Good example, I love Zack Ryder. Not a 'great worker', but I LOVE his gimmick. He's my favourite wrestler right now. No exceptions.

Second, Percy Watson is just... he's SO goofy. He's like the goofiest thing I've ever seen. Which I like. I love wacky comedy in my wrestling (just keep it to the midcard) so Percy Watson is right up my alley. I'm not saying he's a great wrestler (he isn't) or that he's going to a future world champion (not with that gimmick) he just entertains me, and he's different. Different strokes for different folks. Honestly I expected the rest of the IWC to hate the guy, for the exact same reasons I love him.

He did get the crowd into it two weeks ago. MVP tagged him in, he danced, he clapped, the crowd clapped along. He had the crowd. How often have rookies been able to do that within seconds of their debut?

[Hyde Hill]

Most people know about TNA Wrestling "now"... Hogan made sure of it. People are just not liking something about it... The majority probably never will. At some point fans of TNA are going to have to just admit that the rest of the world does not agree with what they think wrestling should be... no matter if some think it's the "bestest" or not. I watched a couple of ROH shows because of all the hype about them here on this board, for example.... My over-all thoughts (at that time) was... Wow, looks like a circus formed a wrestling promotion... Not a bad thing since that is where it's roots come from, carny talk vs. kafabe talk... bassically the same thing. But people pay to see the midget take on the giant, they watch gymnast perform at the olympics and school auditoriums (their kids school
).


Everyone says "dropping the ball", but I think they have found their niche... They don't ever have to get better ratings, because they chose who they wish to appease, and for the most part they do. It's just not as many people as the people wish it were.

Personally, I find TNA fun to watch most of the time... as opposed to a few years ago the first time I tried watching them. I think they can expand and grow, I just don't think they ever will because they don't think that far ahead. One person being signed will change up everything on the show so they can showcase that ONE person. It's how they do it everytime, and there will always be that ONE person that signs in the middle of when people actually are starting to get into it.

Actually no, most people do not know about TNA wrestling now. Most people that are current wrestling fans do but casual fans definitely do not.

Also it is not the rest of the world but the US as there are some countries where for whatever reason Impact out draws or draws close to the WWE.

[Hyde Hill]

Only in the IWC do 1,000,000 weekly viewers = nobody watches it.

2 mill if you include the DVR figures probably even more if you include streamers and downloaders. And DVR figures do get included in the ratings when presented to advertisers as Dixie has stated so.

[Hyde Hill]

That's not my IWC kicking in. It's drawing, what, a 0.8? That's not especially good. A year ago they were pulling a 1.0! It's a lot of people if I were to meet them all, sure, but statistically they're doing poorly.

averaging a 1.2/1.1 actually lolz. And they are back to a 1.0 now on Thursday. With Spike's total prime time average being way below that.

[Hyde Hill]

touche but the marketing is still genious. Kids are the most important thing for WWE because kids will want to see the shows which means adults also have to pay to see the shows. That's a 2 for 1 right there as opposed to having a sitter for the kids while you watch it with a few buddies or something

Yeah I have been talking about the fact that TNA could do with a PG edited Saturday noon Impact for a while now. Past the cartoons and the other traditional wrestling day. Then make a ppv available the next day or week with the option of ordering the PG version. Just cut/blackout/beep out/blur stuff that isn't pg and replace lost time with video packages/entrances/xplosion or web matches etc.

I know it would be an increased cost and is not Spike's target demographic and it would be thinking long term, not TNA's strong point, but I really think it could work.

Ok going to try and end mentioning them here now.

[djthefunkchris]

Actually no, most people do not know about TNA wrestling now. Most people that are current wrestling fans do but casual fans definitely do not.

Also it is not the rest of the world but the US as there are some countries where for whatever reason Impact out draws or draws close to the WWE.

I'm not going to mention those reasons, because I'm almost positive this was a discussion before, that you were a part of. The "whatever" reasons part is a BIG reason and understandable reason of why.

And I'm pretty sure most people know that Hogan is wrestling again, is in TNA if they bother to check, and thus most know about TNA. Believe it or not, I know quite a few people that watch, or sometimes flip, between WWE Superstars and TNA at this time. The one's I'm talking about didn't know about TNA 2 years ago, so it's probably an important point.

[Linsolv]

And I'm pretty sure most people know that Hogan is wrestling again, is in TNA if they bother to check, and thus most know about TNA. Believe it or not, I know quite a few people that watch, or sometimes flip, between WWE Superstars and TNA at this time. The one's I'm talking about didn't know about TNA 2 years ago, so it's probably an important point.

Ouch. Flipping between iMPACT and Superstars? If that's not a negative review then I don't know what is. Maybe everyone else can disagree, but I don't like Superstars at ALL. It's more Todd Grisham than I want, with not enough storyline. If it were even just more-or-less coherent in-ring story, I'd be happy with it, but no. It's three random matches.

Unless they've changed the formatting since January.

[Self]

I like Superstars. It's a fine 'B' show, and often has matches with a lot of young guys I like and I haven't been over-exposed to. Zack Ryder. Primo. Yoshi Tatsu. There was a Dudebusters vs Hart Dynasty match a few weeks back that was awesome. I rarely watch the whole show, but I usually look it up on a Friday or Saturday and cherry pick any matches that interest me... and it's only an hour long, which is still what I consider the ideal length of a wrestling show.

[juggaloninjalee]

When is Superstars on and what channel? I havent seen it.

[Stennick]

Its on Thursday nights on WGN but I don't know what time.

[CQI13]

NItro wasn't killed for low ratings, Nitro had higher ratings than that when it was dying. In fact it had almost three times that. The lowest rating they had was a 2.1 in 2001. Six years after they debuted. They highest they had in 1995 was a 2.9 and the lowest they had in their white hot year of 96 was still a 1.9

So in their dying year they nearly tripled the TNA rating and in one of their hottest years they still beat it by 2 and a half.

My point isn't "hahaha omg tna suks". My point is most network or cable television shows would kill to have the numbers they started with at the end of their run. Now sure the ideal is to have higher but to have not lost any viewers (roughly) from when you first started is pretty impressive.

Nitro was cancelled because they were owned by AOL and Time Warner. The merger happened and nobody wanted wrestling on their television shows anymore. With WCW bleeding money it gave them the excuse they needed to cancel it.

So Nitro being cancelled had nothing to do with ratings and everything to do with finances and politics.

I wasn't making a point that it would be canceled. Or comparing the ratings between the two. Different eras.

The statement I was responding to was the fact that much like then, the opposition is faring poorly compared to WWE, but compared to other cable shows, they're doing very well. Nothing more, nothing less.

Could also be said that WWE now is struggling against WWE then. But that'd be an asinine point to make (much like comparing the ratings of Nitro and Impact directly). The 2.1 to 2.2 that Nitro was pulling at the end was half what WWE was pulling, but still double what TNT's best show was at the time.

[dvdWarrior]

Believe it or not, I know quite a few people that watch, or sometimes flip, between WWE Superstars and TNA at this time.

Not sure how folks are flipping back and forth between Superstars and Impact, but in my neck of the woods, Superstars comes on at 8 PM and goes off at 9, just in time for Impact.

No flipping required. But I guess different places might have different air times.

[crownsy]

In case there was any doubt about Bryan Danielson's release being a work, WWE is asking fans if they want him back on their facebook account.

And Wrestlezone is reporting Chris Jericho was originally planned to be the leader of NXT, but now that they're unhappy with him because of his game show, it might be Triple H.

Makes no sense, the game show is being hyped on WWE TV. A WWE worker hosting a show and everyone knowing he's a WWE wrestler is bad for the WWE how?

and there ticked he's the host on a major network, so pissed they are promoting the snot out of it?

Pull the other one.

[Jaysin]

Makes no sense, the game show is being hyped on WWE TV. A WWE worker hosting a show and everyone knowing he's a WWE wrestler is bad for the WWE how?

and there ticked he's the host on a major network, so pissed they are promoting the snot out of it?

Pull the other one.

It's from wrestlezone, believing something from that site is just idiotic. Any site that promotes Mark Madden needs to be banned from the internet.

[LoganRodzen]

I like Superstars. It's a fine 'B' show, and often has matches with a lot of young guys I like and I haven't been over-exposed to. Zack Ryder. Primo. Yoshi Tatsu. There was a Dudebusters vs Hart Dynasty match a few weeks back that was awesome. I rarely watch the whole show, but I usually look it up on a Friday or Saturday and cherry pick any matches that interest me... and it's only an hour long, which is still what I consider the ideal length of a wrestling show.

I voted for the Dudebusters during the "Viewers Choice" RAW to face Hart Dynasty. Too bad they didn't win the vote. I don't even know who they are or even seen a match, but the 7 seconds they got to talk on that RAW made me laugh and I wanted to see more.

[Slim Jim]

Soooo... Eli Cottonwood... anyone else think he looks like a genetically modified Matt Hardy?

[Hyde Hill]

I'm not going to mention those reasons, because I'm almost positive this was a discussion before, that you were a part of. The "whatever" reasons part is a BIG reason and understandable reason of why.

And I'm pretty sure most people know that Hogan is wrestling again, is in TNA if they bother to check, and thus most know about TNA. Believe it or not, I know quite a few people that watch, or sometimes flip, between WWE Superstars and TNA at this time. The one's I'm talking about didn't know about TNA 2 years ago, so it's probably an important point.

I am not just talking about the UK and yes there are legit reasons why that is the case in the UK. But I have seen reports indicating that Germany and India are close or sometimes beating WWE as well. Not that I know the channel situation there. Even given those channel situations the gap in viewership is still smaller then in the US.

And yeah most people can't flip between them and you are talking about watchers of superstars which is rated lower then TNA. Those people are wrestling fans beyond general, casual or potential fans. Maybe not IWC level but definitely not representing the majority.

Anyway this debate should be moved to the TNA thread.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I'd say the viewership is closer here because, generally I don't think kids would be too aware of either WWE or TNA. Therefore the general wrestling audience would be older in the UK. TNA caters to an older audience these days. Thats why I think it would be closer.

[Candyman]

Makes no sense, the game show is being hyped on WWE TV. A WWE worker hosting a show and everyone knowing he's a WWE wrestler is bad for the WWE how?

and there ticked he's the host on a major network, so pissed they are promoting the snot out of it?

Pull the other one.

They're actually not promoting it nearly as much as you'd make it sound(and by that I mean I've yet to see them promote it once, other than commercials airing during WWE shows...but maybe I've missed a snotfull of spots), but either way, they're mad because he either didn't tell them about it all beforehand or didn't tell them how much time it was actually going to take. They're also worried this may pull him away from wrestling permanently, like when Stacy Keibler did DWTS...which they DID promote the snot out of, only to suddenly drop entirely when they realized she wasn't coming back.

[Hyde Hill]

They're actually not promoting it nearly as much as you'd make it sound(and by that I mean I've yet to see them promote it once, other than commercials airing during WWE shows...but maybe I've missed a snotfull of spots), but either way, they're mad because he either didn't tell them about it all beforehand or didn't tell them how much time it was actually going to take. They're also worried this may pull him away from wrestling permanently, like when Stacy Keibler did DWTS...which they DID promote the snot out of, only to suddenly drop entirely when they realized she wasn't coming back.

Yep and generally the E does not like it when their talents do entertainment projects outside of the E umbrella. Now they have some reason for that with people like The Rock and Keibler leaving because of success but they do seem to go overboard sometimes. Most recent examples Maria and Micky.

[fatallylost]

Not completely WWE related, but, I'm not starting a PWG thread...

http://www.prowrestlingguerrilla.com/images/MAIN.jpg

[crownsy]

They're actually not promoting it nearly as much as you'd make it sound(and by that I mean I've yet to see them promote it once, other than commercials airing during WWE shows...but maybe I've missed a snotfull of spots), but either way, they're mad because he either didn't tell them about it all beforehand or didn't tell them how much time it was actually going to take. They're also worried this may pull him away from wrestling permanently, like when Stacy Keibler did DWTS...which they DID promote the snot out of, only to suddenly drop entirely when they realized she wasn't coming back.

The show's first season, from every report I've read, is already shot and canned. took them 5 days of filming. Only Wrestlezone is reporting that this has annoyed the WWE.

I mean, It's a half hour taped Game show, one 6 hour session of filming nets them 4 Episodes or so on tape.

I'm going to need alittle more than a wrestlezone report before i believe they WWE has put one of it's main eventers in the dog house because he did a high visibility show that will only help the WWE's Q rating.

If there was anything to this report, one of the more "reputable" Rumor sites would be all over it.

I swear, every single time a main eventer/ Upper carder loses a match, it's because they are in Vince's "doghouse" according to rumor sites. whatever drives clicks i suppose.

I mean, It's been very clear that the Jericho losing streak is a storyline, not just punishment. My only concern is it's a rehash of the awful "this guy loses so much he's a babyface now" MVP storyline to turn jericho face, since the Fans have been very vocal in chanting Y2J and cheering him.

Jericho is at that stage of his career now where he's winding it down and the fans are uncomfortable with him being a heel on the back 9, i think. The crowd reactions from this last year have pretty much confirmed the fans want to see one more run as a face before he goes.

Hopefully if they turn him face, It's with something better than the MVP storyline part 2.

[Jaysin]

Random question for everyone; what's your favorite memory or moment in WWE history? It can be you at a live show, a house show, something you watched on TV, meeting someone...anything.

Seems like it'd be a fun topic.

Mine would be Unforgiven 2008. Seeing Matt Hardy win the ECW title was mind blowing. He got one of the biggest pops of the night when he won. It was like all eight thousand of us wanted to jump in the ring to hug him.

I also got to witness Shawn Michaels vs Chris Jericho in a hellacious fight that went all over the arena. The crowd HATED Jericho. There were like four people in our area cheering for Jericho; my best friend, two drunks, and myself. After the match was over people were chanting for more. I just couldn't believe people were so greedy.

The horrible ending to the Smackdown scramble ruined that match for me. Plus, it would have been amazing for Jeff and Matt to both win that night...sigh

But, now to the best moment of the night. Chris Jericho winning the Raw scramble to become World Heavyweight Champion. What's weird is when he won, nearly half the crowd starting going nuts for him. It was a shame Punk got screwed, but at least Jericho won. Jericho is second only to Sting as my favorite wrestler, so witnessing him win the world title for the first time in almost seven years was just...wow. Couldn't even describe it.

So how bout you guys?

[Comradebot]

Random question for everyone; what's your favorite memory or moment in WWE history? It can be you at a live show, a house show, something you watched on TV, meeting someone...anything.

Seems like it'd be a fun topic.

Mine would be Unforgiven 2008. Seeing Matt Hardy win the ECW title was mind blowing. He got one of the biggest pops of the night when he won. It was like all eight thousand of us wanted to jump in the ring to hug him.

I also got to witness Shawn Michaels vs Chris Jericho in a hellacious fight that went all over the arena. The crowd HATED Jericho. There were like four people in our area cheering for Jericho; my best friend, two drunks, and myself. After the match was over people were chanting for more. I just couldn't believe people were so greedy.

The horrible ending to the Smackdown scramble ruined that match for me. Plus, it would have been amazing for Jeff and Matt to both win that night...sigh

But, now to the best moment of the night. Chris Jericho winning the Raw scramble to become World Heavyweight Champion. What's weird is when he won, nearly half the crowd starting going nuts for him. It was a shame Punk got screwed, but at least Jericho won. Jericho is second only to Sting as my favorite wrestler, so witnessing him win the world title for the first time in almost seven years was just...wow. Couldn't even describe it.

So how bout you guys?

Attending Wrestlemania 17, hands down. Amazing to hear the "Rocky Sucks" chants during the peak of his face run, but shucks, the hometown crowd was behind Stone Cold all the way. Might've made his heel turn then even more shocking.

[Robtallica]

mania 18 being there and hearing the crowd unable to pick between rock and hogan. while it was never going to be a clasic match up like savage steamboat it has been my fav wrestlemaina momment as the e call them.

and on jericho turning face i think most fans know that isnt going to be around aslong as some due to his outside gigs mainly his role in fozzy and i dont think the tv game show gig is a big deal as far as him leaving for good. and it makes sence on turning him as raw is a bit heel heavy in the main event/upper midcard and no1 seems sure of when HHH will be back so and jericho as a face always gets good reactions

[Tha Black Phenom]

On recent memory, it had to be Jericho winning at the Scramble. I saw the match through some puny 320x240 screen stream and I marked enough to wake up the whole neighbourhood.

Live, it would have to be when I assisted at the Breaking Point PPV and saw the awesome - overdone, but awesome - ending of Punk making Taker 'submit'. At first, there was a wide reaction of "WTF" but about a minute later everything clicked into our heads and I just loved it. Teddy's serious face was the icing on the cake.

[LoganRodzen]

I have to go with the very first wrestling show I ever want to. It was Dec. 8th of '97 and the night after the DX (In Your House) PPV. It was the first (and only) Monday Night RAW in Maine and I went with my two older brothers. It was the night Austin turned over the IC title to The Rock (an awesome segment with McMahon in the ring). The funny thing about it is I don't remember any of the matches (I was 8 years old) besides the fact that LOD was there and I was a big fan of them. Kane came down and interrupted someones match completely dominating everyone... I remember that vividly because I was scared to death of him. And HBK, HHH, and Chyna played strip poker in the ring.

I also remember not going to school the next day and my older brothers had to (I was in elementary while they were in middle and high school). Its funny the things we remember. :rolleyes:

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Anybody watching 4FW tonight?

[Teh_Showtime]

Anybody watching 4FW tonight?

trying to stream it, but this one is bad

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Loved the ending to Kofi-Drew. Even if Kofi did kinda weak being laid out so long.

[alden]

have to admit the kofi mcintire match was good to watch. The ending was good and it advances two diffrent storylines :) drew vs hardy and drew vs long......wait......are they two diffrent feuds?

[Teh_Showtime]

break time now, loldivas

[Hyde Hill]

On recent memory, it had to be Jericho winning at the Scramble. I saw the match through some puny 320x240 screen stream and I marked enough to wake up the whole neighbourhood.

Live, it would have to be when I assisted at the Breaking Point PPV and saw the awesome - overdone, but awesome - ending of Punk making Taker 'submit'. At first, there was a wide reaction of "WTF" but about a minute later everything clicked into our heads and I just loved it. Teddy's serious face was the icing on the cake.

Assisted in what way if I might ask?

[alden]

great promo by jericho and a good match so far with jericho vs borne....so far this has actuly been a good ppv. the divas match was what it was.....the hass of pain was a little mark out moment though *atleast for stryker it was lol*

[alden]

even wins a great match. Kicks out of the code breaker also!!!!! I hope they have finally pulled the trigger on the evan push. Jericho is no cena or ortan any more but jericho is still a huge name. Props to both men for a good match.

[Teh_Showtime]

<3 Jericho and his willingness to put over people

hope he returns and gets another World Title run before retirement

[Jaysin]

I need a Cole mute button...ugh

[Teh_Showtime]

I need a Cole mute button...ugh

needs moar matt striker

[Jaysin]

needs moar matt striker

and less King

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Pity I missed the Jericho match(watched the close of the US Open, McDowell baby:D). Sounded like a good one.

[alden]

a double german suplex on punk and mysterio by swagger! i sometimes forget how strong jack is. show vs punk vs swagger vs rey has been a good match so far. everyone is getting a chance to shine.

[Jaysin]

Kinda pulling for Big Show to win...

[alden]

and here comes kane!

[alden]

not punk!!!!!! no lol i so want punk to win this.....

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Holy crap! Nobody saw that coming. Huge marking going on here.:D

[Jaysin]

Whoa Rey won...

[alden]

WOW!!!!!!!!! ok........did not think rey rey was going to win this one. Mysterio is the new world champion!

[Jaysin]

He legit breaks Taker's face and gets the world title for a prize. AWESOME!

[Teh_Showtime]

screw that. How does rey get the strap when he wasnt even supposed to be in the match

he legit injured taker to take him out of the match

Swagger should have had at least til summer slam imo

[TheEdgeOfReason]

On a side note. A world title match on PPV is no time to have somebody to come in and work an angle(Kane) that doesn't nessessarily involve the guys in the match.

[alden]

Lol.....take down the locker room leader and you get a push good job. It makes me wonder if taker would have won the title then? i mean....two weeks ago he was not going to be in the match. It makes me even more upset if taker was going to win lol

[Teh_Showtime]

He legit breaks Taker's face and gets the world title for a prize. AWESOME!

we think too similar :eek:

[Jaysin]

we think too similar :eek:

Must be in Ohio's water

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I take it then Kane and Rey are going to feud. It would be logical.

[alden]

major heat for cena lol. A very mixed reaction

[Teh_Showtime]

also anybody think king gave away the WWE title match?

2 fatal four ways, 2 new champions

even though Fox won, but still

[Teh_Showtime]

wait, I failed divas match was fatal 4 way *facepalm*

[TheEdgeOfReason]

also anybody think king gave away the WWE title match?

2 fatal four ways, 2 new champions

even though Fox won, but still

I can see it ending in a no contest. The NXTers will interfere imo.

[Jaysin]

I hope Truth wins his belt back, Miz needs away from the US title

[Teh_Showtime]

I can see it ending in a no contest. The NXTers will interfere imo.

Cena wins, NXT attacks, Barrett cashes it in

[Teh_Showtime]

I hope Truth wins his belt back, Miz needs away from the US title

he had the most legit title reign in a while though. It started like in november

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Cena wins, NXT attacks, Barrett cashes it in

Cashes what in? He got fired on RAW so his title shot is gone(I think).

THE MIZ IS AWESOME. Crowd are gonna turn him face soon.

[LoganRodzen]

I really enjoyed the Drew / Kofi match. It started a little slow but McIntyre had a lot of heat.

[Teh_Showtime]

miz is getting AMAZING heat

now he can rightfully go over cena soon enough

[Jaysin]

he had the most legit title reign in a while though. It started like in november

He never defended it though. That's not legit at all :p

[Teh_Showtime]

listen to the crowd, Miz is Awesome

[Jaysin]

I think they were saying "awful"

I do like Miz, but he needs away from the belt.

[Teh_Showtime]

I like him because I used to think he was terrible back when him and Morrison tagged.

but when he started feuding with Cena, he grew on me (and his ring work got better).

[Tha Black Phenom]

What happened with the Miz? I was just watchin the ppv but I turned it off like 10 minutes ago after Rey won(not that I was that pissed :p though the PPV got grimmer to me when that happened and I had other stuff to do) but I'm hearin crazy stuff about him

[Jaysin]

I started liking him when him and Morrison teamed up, but him holding a midcard title and never defending it isn't going to raise his status. It was little more than a prop in his last reign...

[TheEdgeOfReason]

What happened with the Miz? I was just watchin the ppv but I turned it off like 10 minutes ago after Rey won(not that I was that pissed :p though the PPV got grimmer to me when that happened and I had other stuff to do) but I'm hearin crazy stuff about him

He came out and did a parody of R Truths entrance.

[alden]

flying angel thing........line of the night to the king!

[Teh_Showtime]

a lot of Miz's US title reign was while he held the tag titles too. Teaming with Show helped him a lot because they went over a lot of credible people.

he did defend the title a few times prior to that though

[Jaysin]

The tag titles were why the us title was only a prop during his reign.

[alden]

the miz is still awesome and still champion!

[Teh_Showtime]

pretty much, but they elevated him more than the US title could have done

[Jaysin]

Which is why he doesn't need the US title :p

[Teh_Showtime]

until the Raw ME gets uncrowded he does

or he will be like morrison, lost in the shuffle

[Tha Black Phenom]

Oh dear.

On a side note. A world title match on PPV is no time to have somebody to come in and work an angle(Kane) that doesn't nessessarily involve the guys in the match.

why so? why can't things be different for once. They're keeping us guessing, it's a different move and the crowd well receives it. Let's see where it goes.

[alden]

why so? why can't things be different for once. They're keeping us guessing,

I think this entire ppv has been full of shocks to be honest. The opening match....a womans match with believe it or not a few wrestling holds ;)....a rookie going over a big star...rey winning the wold title.........so far i have been caught off guard a few time already ;)

[Teh_Showtime]

I think this entire ppv has been full of shocks to be honest. The opening match....a womans match with believe it or not a few wrestling holds ;)....a rookie going over a big star...rey winning the wold title.........so far i have been caught off guard a few time already ;)

Bourne =/= rookie He's been in WWE for like 4 years now

and most everyone knows Jericho is leaving to host his game show, so they are zapping his current heat

Rey winning, was just stupid Punk or Show would have been fine but Kane should have destroyed everyone imo

[Jaysin]

Wow a good tag match in WWE. I think I'm having a hart attack

:p

[Teh_Showtime]

damn you WWE, Im trying to finish my show for diary

idk why Im sucked into this PPV

[alden]

haha the kids in the audience saying lets go cena......and the adults chanting cena sucks!........classic

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I think the hilarious thing about the mixed Cena chants is that you can clearly tell it's kids shouting for him and guys shouting against. The tone in the chants are so different.

[Jaysin]

If anything, at least the poor man's Kurt Angle didn't walk out of the ppv with the title.

[Teh_Showtime]

Swagger was my pick, he's a great wrestler imo

and when I went to raw 5/11/09 this guy said Cena Sucks and all of the kids around me nearly had a stroke. It was lolworthy

[alden]

nxt time!

[Teh_Showtime]

Sheamus FTW

told you they wouldnt throw the match out

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Yeah baby. SOS! Interesting turn here with them giving SOS the win then beating on Cena.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

That was underwhelming. That PPV went off air early.

[Teh_Showtime]

what was the crowd chanting at the end?

[Jaysin]

Wow, it ended 30 minutes early?

[LoganRodzen]

That was a short PPV. :eek:

EDIT: Mods take notice. WWE PPVs are 2.5hrs ;)

[Jaysin]

what was the crowd chanting at the end?

Honestly sounded like "that's retarded". At least to me

[alden]

a two and a half hour ppv???????? ok not cool

But

What was up with cole? they don't show him getting hurt but he is all of a sudden sitting in a chair and king is saying somone help cole. whats that about? And the crowd at the end chanting danial bryant is great.

and shamaus!!!!!!!!!! wins yes

[Johnny Fenoli]

WOOOW! Epic Daniel Bryan chant as the PPV fades out, with a beaten Cena in the ring... Very loud...

[Teh_Showtime]

That was underwhelming. That PPV went off air early.

I kinda figured it would when the match started at 10 o clock

kinda had too though since they had 8 main eventers in 2 matches and you know how the WWE feels about the midcard :rolleyes:

although I could have watched some Christian vs Ziggler

[Teh_Showtime]

Honestly sounded like "that's retarded". At least to me

thats what I thought

could have been daniel bryan though, because of the location

[LoganRodzen]

They gave all of the matches some decent time besides the divas match, but what else would you expect from that? They should have and could have placed another story going into this PPV. Having only five matches on the card didn't make me want to buy it.

[TNAfan123]

a two and a half hour ppv???????? ok not cool

But

What was up with cole? they don't show him getting hurt but he is all of a sudden sitting in a chair and king is saying somone help cole. whats that about? And the crowd at the end chanting danial bryant is great.

and shamaus!!!!!!!!!! wins yes

When Edge was throwen into the annouce table he landed on Cole it looked like so I'm pretty sure he was legit hurt.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I thought it would end early too. I half expected Cena to get on the mic just before it faded out, that was December To Dismember range.

As for Cole I dunno, maybe Sheamus caught him when he went over the announce table.

[The Celt]

Two Time World Champ, Fella!!!!!

Ire-land

Ire-land

Ire-land

Ole Ole Ole Ole Ole! Ole! Ole!

Low, Lie, The Fields Of Athenry! Where Once, The Small Free Birds Fly! Our Love Was On The Wing, We Had Dreams And Song To Sing! It's So Lonely Round The Fields, Of Athenry!

IRELAND! Clap Clap Clap IRELAND! Clap Clap Clap IRELAND! Clap Clap Clap

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Two Time World Champ, Fella!!!!!

Ire-land

Ire-land

Ire-land

Ole Ole Ole Ole Ole! Ole! Ole!

Low, Lie, The Fields Of Athenry! Where Once, The Small Free Birds Fly! Our Love Was On The Wing, We Had Dreams And Song To Sing! It's So Lonely Round The Fields, Of Athenry!

IRELAND! Clap Clap Clap IRELAND! Clap Clap Clap IRELAND! Clap Clap Clap

Here, here. Good night for the Irish, McDowell and SOS.:D

[The Celt]

We mightn't be in the World Cup, but there's a giant red head doing us proud!!!

[b0shey]

listen to the WWE Universe Vince, WE WANT DANIEL BRYAN Back

[Teh_Showtime]

listen to the WWE Universe Vince, WE WANT DANIEL BRYAN Back

I assume you didnt see the poll on facebook or whatever it was asking if the wweuniverse wanted him back?

[alden]

from rajah.com

-- Maryse suffered a wardrobe malfunction during the Divas Championship Match at tonight's Fatal 4-Way pay-per-view. The malfunction, which was captured on camera during the live broadcast, occurred when Fox went to pin Maryse.

Wow....how could i have missed that one! lol

[Jaysin]

from rajah.com

-- Maryse suffered a wardrobe malfunction during the Divas Championship Match at tonight's Fatal 4-Way pay-per-view. The malfunction, which was captured on camera during the live broadcast, occurred when Fox went to pin Maryse.

Wow....how could i have missed that one! lol

She's posed nude anyway, so what's the big deal?

[Teh_Showtime]

She's posed nude anyway, so what's the big deal?

I've seen the nudes, I like her clothed pics more for some reason http://www.seyvet.com/resim/78d1bbe10c.jpg

also didnt watch the divas match, didnt want to be disappointed after seeing a pretty good opener

[b0shey]

from rajah.com

-- Maryse suffered a wardrobe malfunction during the Divas Championship Match at tonight's Fatal 4-Way pay-per-view. The malfunction, which was captured on camera during the live broadcast, occurred when Fox went to pin Maryse.

Wow....how could i have missed that one! lol

lol was just about to post that.. Maryse breaks the PG barrier

She's posed nude anyway, so what's the big deal?

Well its usually a nip slip that happends, not often we get a below the border malfunction :D

[Hyde Hill]

I take it then Kane and Rey are going to feud. It would be logical.

Unmask vs Remask match? Now that would be fun.

[Teh_Showtime]

Unmask vs Remask match? Now that would be fun.

I see the feud with Punk continuing and ends up in a mask vs title match.

Hopefully Kane and Swagger can feud so he doesnt become obscure and fall into the abyss

[The Final Countdown]

Sheamus, a two-time WWE champion? Ugh.

[Slagaholic]

The 100th WWE Title change ever.

[The Celt]

Sheamus, a two-time WWE champion? Ugh.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad: :mad::mad::mad:

I've followed that man's entire career...don't you doubt him now!

Edit: 4500th Post of the Official WWE thread, and it equals nothing but truth.