The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[LoganRodzen]

I thought the ending to the PPV was top notch and quality booking. WWE messes a lot of things up, but that main event was really good. Didn't expect to be saying that it was good, but it was solid and better than I expected. I thought the ending to the match was a bit sketchy with them keeping Cena out... but the referee tossing the keys into the crowd? That had me hooked because I'd never seen that before. It was the easiest way for Nexus to get into the cage and the referee took it away from them. I thought that was awesome.

Coolest spot was Kofi off the ladder onto (who I forget?) on the table. I also thought Airbourne directly after the RKO which had Orton still on his back from the RKO and Bourne nails it. That was sick. I don't ever watch SD and don't plan to so none of their matches meant anything to me, but I enjoyed the show as a whole. It was packed with WRESTLING... WWE really delivered in that respect because even the segments backstage were promos to hype the matches. WWE owned TNA this month. :eek:

[The Shape]

For a PPV with four matches I couldn't care less about that was awesome, found both of the MITBs really entertaining - better than any of the recent Mania ones, because they felt much less rushed - and happy with the winners. Kane cashing in on Rey was great, it's a few years too late to say the least but still I don't mind, he's been the main man on SD these recent months so let him have the gold and see where it goes, that's fine. Nice pop for it as well. Miz, meanwhile, absolutely delighted with that, his promo was great as well and I can not wait until he ascends to the top. He has all the tools to be the next huge star this company creates.

Pre-show I wasn't too pumped for the main event but the MITB excitement followed by a great video package had me interesting and I thought the end was well done, very nice touch with the referees.

[Remianen]

And his chin mannerism leaves you "dry" and "apathetic"? Whaaa?

Uh, why the disbelief? If you encountered a person who walks around with their nose in the air, would you be all happy go lucky to see/deal with them? Most people would automatically come to the same conclusion and wish to avoid a person like that. Same with people with the pea**** walk (chest out, nose in the air, butt sticking out). A snarl tends to send a particular message to people around you. Likewise, more subtle expressions can also accomplish similar results.

I understood what he said.

I'm not sure who are worse, the "we want everything even though we hate everything" IWC or the response to that which is "don't be a smark, watch some horrible crap and enjoy it otherwise you are an elitist douchebag".

Yeah, for real.

I hope they give Kane an honest run this time. I think he's earned a shot at being "top guy" (for Smackdown, at least).

[UkWrestleFan]

As a massive Kane fan I'm really happy to see him get a run with the title. He's probably just keeping it warm until 'Taker returns but I don't mind.

[MasterJ]

does anyone else see a cena turn coming? I think he will be behind the NXTUS

[LoganRodzen]

does anyone else see a cena turn coming? I think he will be behind the NXTUS

I was really thinking about how a Cena turn would go down on PPV and then I realized it could never happen on just an average PPV. I think if Vinnie Mac decided to turn his golden boy... he'd do it like Austin and at Wrestlemania. It only makes sense that you'd turn him when you have the biggest audience.

And I'm pretty sure that if you're the mastermind behind a group you don't cost yourself the Championship. There is zero logic behind that. Nexus hates Cena.

[The Shape]

I was really thinking about how a Cena turn would go down on PPV and then I realized it could never happen on just an average PPV. I think if Vinnie Mac decided to turn his golden boy... he'd do it like Austin and at Wrestlemania. It only makes sense that you'd turn him when you have the biggest audience.

And I'm pretty sure that if you're the mastermind behind a group you don't cost yourself the Championship. There is zero logic behind that. Nexus hates Cena.

Maybe they were meant to help him win it back but the one man rock band failed to blow Sheamus' mind in time.

Cole's comments about Miz further enhance my feeling that Cole is behind it, perhaps with Miz by his side.

[Basmat01]

Part of me thinks Triple H is somehow behind the Nexus

but I would mark out heaps if Shawn Micheals ends up being behind the Nexus.

[Hive]

I am so glad that they finally had someone cash in the MITB breifcase the same night they won it. I also think that when The Miz cashes in he should be the first guy to lose the briefcase they have yet to do it and would like to see it happen just once.

Although not in an actual title match, Mr. Kennedy lost his briefcase after winning it.

[The Shape]

If someone does an RVD type thing and sets a date, that's the only way the casher in can lose. Opportunistically doing it like that, which a heel should always do unless they somehow use it to main event mania, nobody can lose doing it, it'd destroy them.

[1234]

does anyone else see a cena turn coming? I think he will be behind the NXTUS

I dont see it. After all thats happened he wouldnt reveal that he got the **** kicked out of him, lost championship matches, all to trick the fans. If he is going to turn with the Nexus it should be a "If you cant beat them, join them" type deal.

I could see The Miz being behind it, saying he grouped the rookies together during season 1, and he was responsible for getting rid off "Daniel Bryan". He sent them down during the cage match to weaken both Sheamus & Cena so he could cash in his briefcase after the match, but of course that didnt go to plan.

[critical-23]

As a massive Kane fan I'm really happy to see him get a run with the title. He's probably just keeping it warm until 'Taker returns but I don't mind.

It's about blast time Kane finally gets his world championship back. Poor guy only held it for a day. Hopefully they'll let him have it for a while!

Kane-a-nites unite!!!!! Awesome chain of events at MITB and cannot wait for Miz to cash his case in.

About Sheamus--did anyone else get goosebumps when he almost turned the title over to McMahon a few weeks back? I cannot remember the last time a hated wrestler had me on the edge of my seat.

[LoganRodzen]

About Sheamus--did anyone else get goosebumps when he almost turned the title over to McMahon a few weeks back? I cannot remember the last time a hated wrestler had me on the edge of my seat.

I really enjoyed when he did that. He had the crowd in the palm of his hand. It was an awesome promo.

[The Shape]

Me too, he seemed like he was genuinely going to do it, even if all logic suggested he wouldn't.

[Self]

'Meh' PPV. Hated Kane's win (although I'm sorta glad it wasn't McIntyre). Loved Miz' win (and his promo after). The other matches were all pretty dull. Well, Swagger/Rey was good times until the post match lameness. Skipped the women (and I usually like watchin' the women) checked my email during the tag. I fast-forwarded through the Cage Match until Nexus showed up. The interference was pretty fun. Way to go Gabriel.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I'm not saying anybody has to love Kane or Miz, I'm saying anyone who says "oh I won't watch the show any more someone NEW is being pushed" needs to stop being such a smark.

And his chin mannerism leaves you "dry" and "apathetic"? Whaaa?

Yes... so what?

I'm talking about these things many oh so like about him but as for me, they leave me dry. I hate his schtick and his style, like if he's forcing it. I will concede he's improving, that's something I can't ignore, besides I couldn't stand him even more in the beginning with his Chick Magnet gimmick. Either way, the way he does things annoy me. But I know he's here to stay(his multiple World titles are probably imminent), and I know I'll have to get used to him.

Kane though... boo-yah.

[ampulator]

I'm not sure who are worse, the "we want everything even though we hate everything" IWC or the response to that which is "don't be a smark, watch some horrible crap and enjoy it otherwise you are an elitist douchebag".
We don't hate everything. In fact, the real issue is the IWC likes only a select few things. And a like some said before, the IWC tries to stay ahead of the curve... that claim is probably true.

[Self]

Miz is like Marmite. You love him or you hate him.

Reading a lot of positive reviews for this show. I'm quite stunned. I was far from blown away. I like spot-fests as much as the next guy, but I find MitB matches, especially those with 8 guys, totally lacking in drama. It might just be because I'm not watching WWE TV right now, but I found it really hard to root for anyone. There's a lot of story possibilities with these type of matches (get a tag team in one) and I'm always let down.

I thought Big Show was far and away the star of the Smackdown match. His adventures with ladders, breaking one, struggling with the big one, getting buried were fantastic. He's not my kinda guy, but I thought he saved this match. Most of the other guys were bland insert-fall-here dudes.

The RAW MitB looked clunky to me, with inordinate amounts of Ted Dibiase. I liked Randy Orton (walking) I liked Maryse (go!) I liked Mark Henry and the finisher's parade. That's about it.

[Linsolv]

As someone on the internet who is part of the wrestling community, I hate very few things. I just want things to be more like what I like. I like CM Punk. I honestly don't think he could POSSIBLY be over-rated. Though he could be mired in the midst of a horrible storyline that bores the tar out of me (right now).

I like technical, mat wrestling. I like promos. I like shining wizards and kimuras. That's about it. Get me closer to those 4 things, WWE.

[Teh_Showtime]

CM Punk is rgeat, point blank

doesnt matter if he's overrated or not because he is still a top 5 wrestler overall in the WWE (Ring and Mic wise)

[The Shape]

Based on his 2009 I was sure that in 2010 he would become an absolute superstar, moving to Raw as the predominant heel threat. When he stayed on SD I was disappointed but thought at least he'll be the main bad guy on the brand, but it hasn't happened at all and now they even look like splitting up the SES. Gutted.

[MasterJ]

As a member of the IWC I like alot of things in wrestling and dislike nothing much. I like good gimmicks that are have more than one side to them, I like (as odd as it seems) Russo booked/Crash TV booked wrestling when it has a good logical reason to most of it, I like Punk, Swagger, MVP, NXTUS. I dislike Miz I(although he is growing on me just a little but still not MITB leval yet IMO, WWE's product/creative which ever is to blame for the recent slump WWE has had, and Promotions that are base just on wrestling with little amounts of angles.

[Self]

I think Punk is sometimes a little over-rated in his ring work. His kicks are very hit-and-miss and I've rarely seen him raise the game of his opponents. He's has great matches against Rey Mysterio and Jeff Hardy, but awful matches against guys like Kane. I love his promos and his character work, but in the ring I wouldn't say he's great. He's merely very good. :)

[Teh_Showtime]

he doesnt always raise his opponent's performance, but I think he could make a case for Morrison back on ECW when Morrison was still pretty green

or it could be just a good mesh as their recent matches (from last year when Punk was champ) were good too

[lazorbeak]

I think Punk is sometimes a little over-rated in his ring work. His kicks are very hit-and-miss and I've rarely seen him raise the game of his opponents. He's has great matches against Rey Mysterio and Jeff Hardy, but awful matches against guys like Kane. I love his promos and his character work, but in the ring I wouldn't say he's great. He's merely very good. :)

Punk's a solid hand but I think what a lot of the IWC is whining about when Punk goes from being everybody's favorite to "overrated" is the adjustment in style that absolutely everybody goes through when they work for WWE 200+ days a year. Punk's matches in ROH were great and all but that style doesn't fit what WWE wants to showcase in front of 10,000 people, never mind the fact that it would tear apart guys' bodies. I mean as much fun as wrestling was in 1998 when the big two were still doing high spots on free TV, it got people hurt, shortened careers and in some cases ended careers.

[SeanMcFly]

Oh dang...

Was really hoping that Mysterio would actually hold on to the title for a little while, but I understood that it was a Money In The Bank cash in though. Disappointed that it was Kane, wanted it to be Kofi. I was really happy that Miz won the RAW Money In The Bank, Morrison or Bourne would've been my other choices to win. Nexus' interference was cool too. Decent Pay-Per-View. Not the best, but it was okay.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Theres something I hate about Codys ring gear. He looks really weird without knee or elbow pads.

[Jaysin]

Theres something I hate about Codys ring gear. He looks really weird without knee or elbow pads.

Totally agree. Orton looks dumb without the wrist tape as well. Maybe that one is just me.

[The Shape]

Theres something I hate about Codys ring gear. He looks really weird without knee or elbow pads.

Totally agree. Orton looks dumb without the wrist tape as well. Maybe that one is just me.

THIS so many times over. Someone mentioned Cody's legs a while ago and I finally realised why all this time I'd thought he looked so weird, and after that I noticed Orton and I simply cannot get over it whenever I watch him.

[The Two]

Theres something I hate about Codys ring gear. He looks really weird without knee or elbow pads.
It's because without knee or elbow pads, he doesn't look like a wrestler, or a figher, he just looks like a scrawny guy in his underwear.

[LoganRodzen]

Theres something I hate about Codys ring gear. He looks really weird without knee or elbow pads.

THIS so many times over. Someone mentioned Cody's legs a while ago and I finally realised why all this time I'd thought he looked so weird, and after that I noticed Orton and I simply cannot get over it whenever I watch him.

So true. I find it hard to believe that your Average Joe couldn't knock Cody out with one punch. It's really hard to get behind the guy. They need to give him a coward, cheat to win, etc. type of character or else nobody will ever believe it.

[Eisen-verse]

Now THAT was a match. What a way to kick off RAW!

[LoganRodzen]

Now THAT was a match. What a way to kick off RAW!

Completely agree. Did WWE start listening to fans and realize that people watch TNA because of the WRESTLING? I thought MITB last night had a lot of in-ring action and that triple threat to start RAW was awesome. People are really interested in Nexus... when their music hit, people jumped off their feet to get a closer look. I'm enjoying this opening segment because I almost believed Jericho was at least SOMEWHAT involved with Nexus because of Barrett. I didn't think he was the genius behind it, but I did think he was going to be an ally. I was wrong.

Really curious where this is going and it better not be HHH. He needs to come back and get his ass beat down too. :D

[The Final Countdown]

Really curious where this is going and it better not be HHH. He needs to come back and get his ass beat down too. :D
My guess would be he comes back with a sledgehammer to even the odds while Cena is getting beaten down again.

[LoganRodzen]

I have this feeling that HHH's surgery a few weeks ago was fake and he's returning sooner than we think. There is no way Cena is joining Nexus. They're going to beat him down again and laugh off his stupidity. :p

[Jaysin]

Ugh, I turn on Raw and I get stuck with seeing Eve stink up the TV, but at least I get to see Maryse!

[The Final Countdown]

Ugh, I turn on Raw and I get stuck with seeing Eve stink up the TV, but at least I get to see Maryse!
I'd rather watch Eve wrestle than listen to Ted Dibiase talk. So friggin dull.

[Eisen-verse]

Okay, I could have swore that was a younger HBK there. ha. Just 100% on looks alone; a split second view.

[Jaysin]

Random question. Did they get new WWE and World Titles? They have more of a yellowish gold color to them then they usually do.

[ampulator]

I'd rather watch Eve wrestle than listen to Ted Dibiase talk. So friggin dull.
That's actually quite sad, because Eve is total crap... but her in-ring action is still better than Ted Dibiase's promos.

[Jaysin]

Holy crap, the crowd went nuts for Miz!

[LoganRodzen]

R-Truth is lame. :o

[Jaysin]

R-Truth is lame. :o

Watch your mouth!

Truth is awesome!

[LoganRodzen]

Watch your mouth!

Truth is awesome!

Crowd was really behind Miz. I thought they were going to boo him. Pretty sure some were.

[ampulator]

Crowd was really behind Miz. I thought they were going to boo him. Pretty sure some were.
It depends on the crowd. I generally find the more "hip" the crowd is, the more they cheer. The less "hip" they are, the more they boo him.

My concern is, in places where he gets no reaction. That scares me. How can you NOT react for or against the Miz?

[The Final Countdown]

Crowd was really behind Miz. I thought they were going to boo him. Pretty sure some were.
I was surprised more people weren't booing him, considering how they were reacting while Miz was beating on Sheamus with the briefcase.

[ampulator]

I was surprised more people weren't booing him, considering how they were reacting while Miz was beating on Sheamus with the briefcase.
Wait, Sheamus is a face now? Well... he wasn't a really convincing heel, anyway.

[The Final Countdown]

Wait, Sheamus is a face now? Well... he wasn't a really convincing heel, anyway.
I think I read the original post wrong. What I meant was that I was expecting more people to boo when R-Truth interrupted, because they seemed to be really behind Miz as he was attacking Sheamus.

[Slagaholic]

I think they were cheering the potential of an unexpected title change more so than cheering Miz.

[The Final Countdown]

I think they were cheering the potential of an unexpected title change more so than cheering Miz.
I agree, it didn't have so much to do with Miz as with the situation. Still, they were excited, and R-Truth pretty much wrecked it. I expected a more negative reaction just because he interrupted the potential title change.

[LoganRodzen]

I think they were cheering the potential of an unexpected title change more so than cheering Miz.

Honestly, I thought that went without saying. There is no reason the crowd would actually get behind Miz for real, unless they hate Sheamus more. But it was definitely the possibility of a title change that had the crowd on the edge of their seat.

[Slagaholic]

So Edge's heel run lasted what 3 months? Judging by who's on Cena's team it looks like the Nexus is going to be getting the win at Summer Slam. But you never know.

[LoganRodzen]

So Edge's heel run lasted what 3 months? Judging by who's on Cena's team it looks like the Nexus is going to be getting the win at Summer Slam. But you never know.

If that's true then Jericho must be a face now too, huh? Pretty sure those heels will continue to be heels, but all the WWE guys realize they need to get rid of these punks once and for all. And the only way to do that is to unite - even if they hate each other. Seeing Edge and Cena side-by-side blew my mind though. They had so many matches tearing each other apart. It really set the tone for what they're trying to do.

[The Final Countdown]

So Edge's heel run lasted what 3 months? Judging by who's on Cena's team it looks like the Nexus is going to be getting the win at Summer Slam. But you never know.
I don't think joining forces with Cena against the Nexus makes him a face necessarily. Same with Jericho. Not permanently, at least.

[Slagaholic]

I think they're going to be faces for the rest of the Nexus storyline. Which is good since it makes Nexus without a doubt the top heels on Raw beside Sheamus. I wouldn't be shocked if Sheamus joined forces with Nexus for the protection.

[jjohns44]

Yeah, it's similar to Alliance storyline when WWE heels at the time became faces really because they had to join forces to take on the Alliance. Once the story ended it was back to hating on the heels. At least this time Nexus seems to be easier on the stomach than Alliance, and not nearly as annoying as the other 'big heel stable' that was Spirit Squad.

[LoganRodzen]

Yeah, it's similar to Alliance storyline when WWE heels at the time became faces really because they had to join forces to take on the Alliance. Once the story ended it was back to hating on the heels. At least this time Nexus seems to be easier on the stomach than Alliance, and not nearly as annoying as the other 'big heel stable' that was Spirit Squad.

I don't think Nexus is like the Spirit Squad at all. I've seen a few others make the comparison (you didn't though) and I don't really understand it. The only person in the spirit squad who (I thought) had any talent was Kenny, but I'm pretty sure he was an arrogant prick backstage. I think Nexus is packed full of potential talent that could go anywhere. When I look at Nexus I see a bunch of guys who could potentially be in PPV matches. When I saw Spirit Squad I saw a bunch of glorified jobbers.

[Hive]

They'll probably to do a "Bash of the Beach 1996" with Triple H instead of Hogan.

[The Shape]

I really liked that show, they kicked off with the best match which is good as personally when watching Raw my attention span declines as the show goes on. Some great moments with Miz/Sheamus and Bret at the end.

[MasterJ]

They'll probably to do a "Bash of the Beach 1996" with Triple H instead of Hogan.

Cena turns on his team joing nxtus thats why he picked up the arm band at the end of MITB. I'm calling it:)

[Hive]

Cena turns on his team joing nxtus thats why he picked up the arm band at the end of MITB. I'm calling it:)

But why not just have him join them at last RAW? It really makes no storyline sense to have him bother gathering a team to betray first. I really can't see in any way how it would fit Cena's character to do so, either.

Besides, the storyline needs to have revealed some kind of mastermind behind it all. And that cannot logically be Cena, since he kept being a target of theirs.

[Moe Hunter]

Well... Cena is one of the few guys these days that wears Armbands (I'm pretty sure Bourne does too?). Maybe it'll be like the classic "I'll take off my regular shirt to reveal this other shirt" (see: Tyson vs DX, Big Show joins ECW). Cena will peel off one of his CeNation armbands to reveal the N!

[The Shape]

Well... Cena is one of the few guys these days that wears Armbands (I'm pretty sure Bourne does too?). Maybe it'll be like the classic "I'll take off my regular shirt to reveal this other shirt" (see: Tyson vs DX, Big Show joins ECW). Cena will peel off one of his CeNation armbands to reveal the N!

Yeah, a guy in the diaries forum did this as his opener lately, turned the armband inside out to reveal the treacherous colours, really nice touch.

It would be a good moment, but I dunno...guess I'm just waiting to see where it all goes long-term. And waiting for Daniel Bryan.

Just checked if bragging rights is scheduled for this year on the basis that they surely wouldn't do a 7 vs. 7 on a different show, but apparently it's in October so guess they had to do this now. Still, the post-SS ppv outlook is typically bleak...

[Eisen-verse]

I just don't see them turning John Cena heel for this scenario in the slightest. There really would be no gain, and if anything, it would hurt Cena's brand; something the WWE doesn't want for business. To me, Cena is much like Hogan before his nWo run: A guy who always wrestles as a babyface.

[PeterHilton]

I just don't see them turning John Cena heel for this scenario in the slightest. There really would be no gain, and if anything, it would hurt Cena's brand; something the WWE doesn't want for business. To me, Cena is much like Hogan before his nWo run: A guy who always wrestles as a babyface.

I don't necessarily think Cena is going to turn, but if you take your Hogan comparison, then Cena would be the PERFECT guy to turn.

Uber face who's character may no longer be as popular as he once was. A turn would be relatively unexpected. And if a Cena turn was even a tenth as successful as Hogan joining the nWo, then the WWE would make waaaaay more money turning him.

But as has been mentioned, it doesn't make storyline sense. Cena's brand is still really strong. They will probably tease a turn, and then reveal Trips or something.

[The Shape]

I was about to make a post saying I would prefer it if Trips was nowhere near this, how I'd like him to come back and get some revenge on Sheamus...but then I actually thought about it.

Trips can't have long left in him in the ring, and leading this group might be his best shot at putting newer guys over, both on team NXT and on the opposing side looking to fight back. There'd be a lot of logic behind it; he's been out injured, an injury inflicted by a much younger guy, he's realised what needs to be done. The attacks on other main event figures, the beatdowns on authorities...especially Vince. Vince, too, is winding down his days as an on-screen figure, and I've always thought they'd have to do some kind of conflict between him and Trips for him to bow out.

With Orton's turn, WWE has its two top babyfaces cemented in their positions, and on the heel side you've got Edge and Jericho but they can easily drop down the card moreso than Trips. This would actually make HHH vs. Cena a relevant match again, which is something that has to appeal to them.

[FINisher]

KANE!!

BUH GAWD FINALLY!

So so awesome. Kane is the most deserving guy on the roster to carry World championship and for years I said over and over again how he should be the champ at some point in his long career.. So freaking awesome I can't describe it. Finally!

[Teh_Showtime]

I mean although he lost to SCSA after one day, most people see it as the 2nd coming of Bret Hart (in the ring :P) since Kane won the title

[TheEdgeOfReason]

But why not just have him join them at last RAW? It really makes no storyline sense to have him bother gathering a team to betray first. I really can't see in any way how it would fit Cena's character to do so, either.

Besides, the storyline needs to have revealed some kind of mastermind behind it all. And that cannot logically be Cena, since he kept being a target of theirs.

Yeah it does. The point of the Nexus is too destroy the established hierarchy of the WWE. If Cena were to join, I'd assume that would be his goal too. What better way to do it than lead a bunch of those guys into a match then turn on them.

[Jaysin]

If Triple H turns heel, I'll be less inclined to watch honestly. Heel Triple H bores me to tears.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

If Triple H turns heel, I'll be less inclined to watch honestly. Heel Triple H bores me to tears.

Me too. He's an extremely repetitive heel imo.

[Stennick]

Its hard to believe its been over 4 years since Trips was a heel. He turned face in 06 I think it was to do the DX thing and hasn't been heel since I don't think.

[Candyman]

Its hard to believe its been over 4 years since Trips was a heel. He turned face in 06 I think it was to do the DX thing and hasn't been heel since I don't think.

Yep, he started his fued with Vince right after WM 22. Been a face ever since. Personally, I'm ready for him to be a heel again. DX is gone, so they're not going to have the comedy angles they provided, and I just don't think he's an effective face without that. IMO, he's a much better heel. Plus Raw has Cena and Orton already. Cena and Triple H still haven't had a full fledged, drawn out fued(just two one-off matches) and I think that could be a great one.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Me too. He's an extremely repetitive heel imo.

Repetitive? Well, I could understand 'drawn out', but it should be admitted Trips went to good lengths to keep his heel heat alive during his run by going in different directions. Many of the angles he was involved in induced genuine heel material. Simple problem was that while his run was good, indeed, we had enough and a change was needed. Fans wanted so much to cheer him but they never really could either. Then, DX happened and...

let's face it, he hasn't done wonders as a face. Only times he's been remotely interesting is when he entered Comeback God Mode and returned to hand a walloping to Orton with his Zeus sledgehammer. He is a much much better heel and I think it'd be cool if he came back to his roots.

The only thing here is should he return heel, he should stay astray from the 2003-04 formula(and he probably would); being the center of attention #1 heel that represents the apex of the brand itself. Because Triple H knows how it's time for the other heels to shine. Miz and Sheamus most namely.

[nucleardonkey]

How is team Cena really a threat to such a dominant group as Nexus? Edge and Jericho are going to turn on each other obviously, no one has ever taken The Great Khali seriously in any role, The Miz just recently put R-Truth out of action on his own so what can Nexus do to him, John Morrison is never going to be as big as they think he is, Bret Hart hasn't been an active competitor in over a decade.

The only way anything good will come from the match is if Jericho and Edge were to brawl with each other leaving team Cena down two, then Miz runs out attacking R-Truth leaving just Cena, Bret, Morrison, and Khali. Bret goes to tag out to Cena who jumps off the apron and Nexus jumps in the ring 7 on 3 against Bret, Khali, and Morrison with Cena yelling orders from ringside before coming in and putting Bret in the STF as the PPV goes off the air.

[Prophet]

Here's my question on the whole team Cena thing ... why Khali? Bret Hart, I understand, the Nexus cost him a job. Edge and Jericho make sense, due to earlier that evening (so Cena wasn't working as hard as he'd have you believe.) Morrison has been beaten from pillar to post for weeks by the crew, so he makes sense. Even as a stretch, Truth coached Otunga, so he makes some sense, albeit not a whole lot.

That leaves out Mark Henry who was beaten by the Nexus, and almost killed by Wade. Yoshi Tatsu who was decimated by the Nexus. Or, I dunno, maybe Evan Bourne, who was the first to run to Cena's aid when they started "fighting back" and was abused for it. I don't recall ever seeing Khali in the same frame as any Nexus member, and can't for the life of me figure out why he's there, unless they're mirroring. Like Cena to Barrett, Morrison to Gabriel, Edge to Sheffield, etc. Just think there's a better choice than the Punjabi Playboy.

[eayragt]

Here's my question on the whole team Cena thing ... why Khali? Bret Hart, I understand, the Nexus cost him a job. Edge and Jericho make sense, due to earlier that evening (so Cena wasn't working as hard as he'd have you believe.) Morrison has been beaten from pillar to post for weeks by the crew, so he makes sense. Even as a stretch, Truth coached Otunga, so he makes some sense, albeit not a whole lot.

That leaves out Mark Henry who was beaten by the Nexus, and almost killed by Wade. Yoshi Tatsu who was decimated by the Nexus. Or, I dunno, maybe Evan Bourne, who was the first to run to Cena's aid when they started "fighting back" and was abused for it. I don't recall ever seeing Khali in the same frame as any Nexus member, and can't for the life of me figure out why he's there, unless they're mirroring. Like Cena to Barrett, Morrison to Gabriel, Edge to Sheffield, etc. Just think there's a better choice than the Punjabi Playboy.

It's the chance to put Khali in a big match.

Where he doesn't have to wrestle for any more than two minutes.

The real question is why they didn't involve Khali earlier, to make it make more sense. I know he's a dominating giant who you don't really want to see Nexys struggling to beat but... just have them shove him off the stage or something, knocking him out of action for a few weeks before returning with Team Cena.

No? Is pushing someone off a stage onto some poorly hidden padding to extreme nowadays?

[The Final Countdown]

No? Is pushing someone off a stage onto some poorly hidden padding to extreme nowadays?
Maybe it is...

[Tha Black Phenom]

Here's my question on the whole team Cena thing ... why Khali? Bret Hart, I understand, the Nexus cost him a job. Edge and Jericho make sense, due to earlier that evening (so Cena wasn't working as hard as he'd have you believe.) Morrison has been beaten from pillar to post for weeks by the crew, so he makes sense. Even as a stretch, Truth coached Otunga, so he makes some sense, albeit not a whole lot.

That leaves out Mark Henry who was beaten by the Nexus, and almost killed by Wade. Yoshi Tatsu who was decimated by the Nexus. Or, I dunno, maybe Evan Bourne, who was the first to run to Cena's aid when they started "fighting back" and was abused for it. I don't recall ever seeing Khali in the same frame as any Nexus member, and can't for the life of me figure out why he's there, unless they're mirroring. Like Cena to Barrett, Morrison to Gabriel, Edge to Sheffield, etc. Just think there's a better choice than the Punjabi Playboy.

It helps show that the whole roster has a gripe against them, not just those who've had an interaction with them. And in a big assembly team Khali is the perfect role. Since he's a monster he can be made looking weak, and then powerful the very next second. A nice sidekick to hype things off.

Nearly everyone else has likely other plans. I strongly believe Bourne will challenge for the US title, Henry would look so weak being revealed part of the team after being beaten by Barrett mere minutes before.


And maybe that pushing off thing would've been too extreme... for Khali. Who knows what degree of bumps the big fella can take, lol.

[Prophet]

From the booking sense, as in preparing the match, I totally understand it. Big dominating figure who is used in small spurts to "anchor" the team. I just meant in the flow of the story. Everyone else has a reason that we, on the outside, have seen. Some more obvious than others, but everyone has some semblance of legitimacy. Whereas Khali just appeared. That's why I mentioned alternatives.

Although with Truth in the group, maybe Bourne will go for the US title, which wouldn't be a bad thing. Henry could've still been used, there's other names that Barrett could've underestimated weight wise and almost spiked into the ring apron. Khali just seems an awkward fit, since the week prior, his big thing was making out with Mama Brady. (Of which I envy, `cause even now, Florence Henderson looks good.)

[brashleyholland]

I'm not really 'in to' wrestling as most here, but if Triple H isn't the best bag guy I've ever seen in wrestling then I don't know who is.

[Jaysin]

I'm not really 'in to' wrestling as most here, but if Triple H isn't the best bag guy I've ever seen in wrestling then I don't know who is.

Flair, Kurt Angle, Jericho, you know, people who can be entertaining and still hate them. :p

[brashleyholland]

Flair, Kurt Angle, Jericho, you know, people who can be entertaining and still hate them. :p

I can't hate those guys, especially Flair. That crazy old man can do no wrong in my eyes :-p

[Jaysin]

Different strokes for different folks I guess.

[Stennick]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l3fhV150d0

At the end of this video he's asking kids if they have heard of Gable, Nigel, Vince Russo, Dave Meltzer and each one is a resounding no. Then he hands these 8 year old kids a copy of the Observer. Personally thats kind of mean he might be destroying some kids fantasies. Its funny but kinda wrong.

[Moe Hunter]

I'm not really 'in to' wrestling as most here, but if Triple H isn't the best bag guy I've ever seen in wrestling then I don't know who is.

I thought Orton was the "bag guy", and was hated for such...

[Jaysin]

I thought Orton was the "bag guy", and was hated for such...

LOL! You just made me laugh harder then I have in weeks. Man, I needed that.

[lazorbeak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-l3fhV150d0

At the end of this video he's asking kids if they have heard of Gable, Nigel, Vince Russo, Dave Meltzer and each one is a resounding no. Then he hands these 8 year old kids a copy of the Observer. Personally thats kind of mean he might be destroying some kids fantasies. Its funny but kinda wrong.

Not like they'd ever read it. You could give an 8 year old a newsletter about exploding killer death robots and they still wouldn't read it.

[Jaysin]

I know it's old (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4_UO7iXXUQ)

But I had to share. It's just a shame that the E doesn't produce segments half as entertaining as this one. They could have turned Helms into a huge star I think, he certainly had the entertainment skills and he has always been pretty good in the ring.

*sigh*

[Shmoe]

I know it's old (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4_UO7iXXUQ)

But I had to share. It's just a shame that the E doesn't produce segments half as entertaining as this one. They could have turned Helms into a huge star I think, he certainly had the entertainment skills and he has always been pretty good in the ring.

*sigh*

"Go get The Rock a cheeseburger: no ketchup!"

Ah The Rock. How we miss you.

[The Final Countdown]

The Rock circa 2003 may have been the most entertaining character of all time.

[Stennick]

I agree those few months he came back from Feb till April he was untouchable. That was as clear as it had ever been that the Rock was simply too much for pro wrestling. The guy was just simply too good. You wanted to just watch The Rock for two hours.

[ampulator]

That's why he's gone... and why the WWE will never ever let anyone get as big as the Rock or Stone Cold again, unless they have to.

[The Shape]

That's why he's gone... and why the WWE will never ever let anyone get as big as the Rock or Stone Cold again, unless they have to.

You really think they could? Those guys are genuine household names. With wrestling as it is now nobody can reach that.

[Tha Black Phenom]

the line "You been smokin' them funny cigarettes, The Rock will fly and whoop that candy-ass--" after Hurricane's question and the pause will remain one of my favorite lines, ever.

[Stennick]

That's why he's gone... and why the WWE will never ever let anyone get as big as the Rock or Stone Cold again, unless they have to.

Wouldn't they be BEGGING someone to get that big. Those guys alone are responsible for a lot of the attitude years being a success.

You really think if they could get John Cena to have a segment 8.4 segment like The Rock did with this is your life that they'd sya "nah we can't let you do that John nobody can get bigger than those two"

Not even in a they keep shooting themselves in a foot when they get a star that could be that big way. There isn't a single star in wrestling today that has half of what the Rock had in charisma. John Cena is good but he's not Rock good, Mr. Kennedy is entertaining but he's not Rock Entertaining.

If Vince could make John Cena as big as The Rock was he'd do it tomorrow. The truth is there isn't a man in pro wrestling that has the charisma the Rock has.

I get the whole they leave Pro Wrestling thing but honestly The Rock is the only guy to succesfully leave Pro Wrestling and have a mainstream career outside of it. Austin is in second rate movies for the most part or bit roles in big movies. The Rock is a leading man in Hollywood to some degree. Not even Hogan had any success outside of pro wrestling. I think they would welcome it because at the end of the day these guys have contracts, Vince had to let The Rock leave he didn't have to.

[PeterHilton]

That's why he's gone... and why the WWE will never ever let anyone get as big as the Rock or Stone Cold again, unless they have to.

That's kinda ridiculous.

"Unless they have to" makes it seem as if they have a choice in creating a star that big. If the E could duplicate the success of the Rock or Stone Cold they'd do it in a second.

Even if that star left in a few years, the PPV buys and ratings they generate short term, and the revenue and exposure they create longterm, is totally worth it.

[LoganRodzen]

The Rock helped make Brock Lesnar, but who did Austin help make into a star? I'm drawing a blank. The guy literally up and left without giving back anything. Vince doesn't want to create a mega-star like Rock, Hogan, or Austin because of the ego that it creates. I can't think of one person who Austin helped make into a star and the guy could have rubbed off his popularity onto anybody. Maybe my brain is too screwy to remember correctly, but Austin was always in it for himself. :o

I'd imagine Vince doesn't want to create anything like that ever again.

[PeterHilton]

First..you guys are high if you think Vince & Co don't want to create another giant megastar.

That's like saying the Cleveland Cavs would never draft a top player like Lebron because he might leave in 7 years again.

Second..Logan your brain is screwy because Austin put over The Rock big time early in their rivalry (although you could argue Rocky would've been a star regardless) and then, when Triple H made his jump to the main event in 01, it was his feud with Austin (specifically going over clean at No Way in that 2-of-3 fall match) that cemented him as a main eventer.

[shawn michaels 82]

Wouldn't they be BEGGING someone to get that big. Those guys alone are responsible for a lot of the attitude years being a success.

You really think if they could get John Cena to have a segment 8.4 segment like The Rock did with this is your life that they'd sya "nah we can't let you do that John nobody can get bigger than those two"

Not even in a they keep shooting themselves in a foot when they get a star that could be that big way. There isn't a single star in wrestling today that has half of what the Rock had in charisma. John Cena is good but he's not Rock good, Mr. Kennedy is entertaining but he's not Rock Entertaining.

If Vince could make John Cena as big as The Rock was he'd do it tomorrow. The truth is there isn't a man in pro wrestling that has the charisma the Rock has.

I get the whole they leave Pro Wrestling thing but honestly The Rock is the only guy to succesfully leave Pro Wrestling and have a mainstream career outside of it. Austin is in second rate movies for the most part or bit roles in big movies. The Rock is a leading man in Hollywood to some degree. Not even Hogan had any success outside of pro wrestling. I think they would welcome it because at the end of the day these guys have contracts, Vince had to let The Rock leave he didn't have to.

First of all, Autin didn't exactly leave. He would still be in the ring to this day if it wasn't for Owen and some other injuries. And the Rock...well,yes he is the only one having a succesfull career...but he is not a leading man to any extent and in any degree. A good career,but he's not the next Schwarzennegger. Not yet at least. And i doubt he'll get bigger. From now on...down is the way. And he will end up returning like they all do.

[LoganRodzen]

Second..Logan your brain is screwy because Austin put over The Rock big time early in their rivalry (although you could argue Rocky would've been a star regardless) and then, when Triple H made his jump to the main event in 01, it was his feud with Austin (specifically going over clean at No Way in that 2-of-3 fall match) that cemented him as a main eventer.

I argue that by 2000 HHH was already a star. His matches with Foley (No Way Out 2000) cemented him as a bad ass heel. Austin had nothing to do with it in my eyes.

[PeterHilton]

First of all, Autin didn't exactly leave. He would still be in the ring to this day if it wasn't for Owen and some other injuries. And the Rock...well,yes he is the only one having a succesfull career...but he is not a leading man to any extent and in any degree. A good career,but he's not the next Schwarzennegger. Not yet at least. And i doubt he'll get bigger. From now on...down is the way. And he will end up returning like they all do.

He's banking $10-15 million a movie for those Disney family movies...he's easily as successful as guys like Jason Statham or Ryan Reynolds.

If he comes back, it won't be because he has to.

[PeterHilton]

I argue that by 2000 HHH was already a star. His matches with Foley (No Way Out 2000) cemented him as a bad ass heel. Austin had nothing to do with it in my eyes.

I'd disagree.

EDIT: still think you're high if you think Vince wouldn't kill to have an Austin/Rock level star. :P

[ampulator]

First..you guys are high if you think Vince & Co don't want to create another giant megastar.

That's like saying the Cleveland Cavs would never draft a top player like Lebron because he might leave in 7 years again.

Second..Logan your brain is screwy because Austin put over The Rock big time early in their rivalry (although you could argue Rocky would've been a star regardless) and then, when Triple H made his jump to the main event in 01, it was his feud with Austin (specifically going over clean at No Way in that 2-of-3 fall match) that cemented him as a main eventer.
A couple of years ago, I would dismiss this theory too.

But the problem is, WWE wants to have its cake, and eat it too. They want the Mega-star, but they don't want to have the problems associated with having a Megastar.

They have TRIED to make a Megastar out of John Cena. That I can see. But there are some things they are simply unwilling to do if that means they can make it so that John Cena has a lot of leverage on them.

Right now, if John Cena left, WWE has ways to build the next star.. the same can't be said for the Rock or Austin. They were huge. Them leaving hurt the WWE a lot.

More important to Vince than money... is control. He will put money above anything else, EXCEPT Control. WWE may not be able to get the Austin/Rock right now, but they can get darn close... they want to, but they don't the workers get bigger than them.

[Stennick]

First of all, Autin didn't exactly leave. He would still be in the ring to this day if it wasn't for Owen and some other injuries. And the Rock...well,yes he is the only one having a succesfull career...but he is not a leading man to any extent and in any degree. A good career,but he's not the next Schwarzennegger. Not yet at least. And i doubt he'll get bigger. From now on...down is the way. And he will end up returning like they all do.

By leading man I mean entire movies made with him as the focus. Scorpion King, The Game Plan, The Tooth Fairy, Gridiron Gang, I could go on but the point is the guy is not making 100 million dollar films but Disney one of the biggest movie companies in the world has made severla movies with him as the star of the movie. Thats what I meant by leading man.

He doesn't want to be Arnold, he's gone the kids, family route more than the action movie route. Its everyone ELSE that wanted him to be Arnold but he's gotten away from that. Honestly he's a naturally funny guy that works well in the types of movies he's in. Are they classics? no but they work.

He's very much a leading man in the movies I've named off. I'm not saying he's Richard Gere but the movies he's in he's the focus of most of the time. Plus he's got a movie with Wahlberg, Jackson and Ferral coming out where he stars alongside of them thats a pretty good deal.

[LoganRodzen]

I'd disagree.

EDIT: still think you're high if you think Vince wouldn't kill to have an Austin/Rock level star. :P

Lies, Peter. Lies! Do you remember the main event as Wrestlemania 2000? HHH walked into a 4-way dance as champ and walked out as champ. Austin had nothing to do with that. HHH was a star by that point and everybody knows it. :p

I am high, but I truly believe Vince doesn't want to make a star like that again.

[ampulator]

Lies, Peter. Lies! Do you remember the main event as Wrestlemania 2000? HHH walked into a 4-way dance as champ and walked out as champ. Austin had nothing to do with that. HHH was a star by that point and everybody knows it. :p

I am high, but I truly believe Vince doesn't want to make a star like that again.
No, he wants the megastar, he just doesn't the issues that comes with having a megastar. Like I said before, wanthing to have your cake and eat it too.

[PeterHilton]

They have TRIED to make a Megastar out of John Cena. That I can see. But there are some things they are simply unwilling to do if that means they can make it so that John Cena has a lot of leverage on them.

They created an entire film division in order to push him to those major star levels. What else could they have done?

More important to Vince than money... is control. He will put money above anything else, EXCEPT Control. WWE may not be able to get the Austin/Rock right now, but they can get darn close... they want to, but they don't the workers get bigger than them.

Yeah...not buying it.

The workers they have now just don't have the combination of looks, starpower, and raw charisma that Austin and Rocky did. It's not that they are being nerfed by the WWE..they just can't do it.

Lies, Peter. Lies! Do you remember the main event as Wrestlemania 2000? HHH walked into a 4-way dance as champ and walked out as champ. Austin had nothing to do with that. HHH was a star by that point and everybody knows it. :p

meh...i hated that WM. It might be personal bias but I really loved Trips back then. But when he beat Austin in that feud, even the people I knew who didn't like him finally admitted he was the sh*t.

I am high, but I truly believe Vince doesn't want to make a star like that again.

Not buying it. Where's the downside?

[PeterHilton]

No, he wants the megastar, he just doesn't the issues that comes with having a megastar. Like I said before, wanthing to have your cake and eat it too.

THIS makes sense I suppose...I'd still say they trade the "issues" for the chance to have another megastar that could possibly drag the WWE back into the mainstream

[Stennick]

A couple of years ago, I would dismiss this theory too.

But the problem is, WWE wants to have its cake, and eat it too. They want the Mega-star, but they don't want to have the problems associated with having a Megastar.

They have TRIED to make a Megastar out of John Cena. That I can see. But there are some things they are simply unwilling to do if that means they can make it so that John Cena has a lot of leverage on them.

Right now, if John Cena left, WWE has ways to build the next star.. the same can't be said for the Rock or Austin. They were huge. Them leaving hurt the WWE a lot.

More important to Vince than money... is control. He will put money above anything else, EXCEPT Control. WWE may not be able to get the Austin/Rock right now, but they can get darn close... they want to, but they don't the workers get bigger than them.

This just reaks of internet smarkyness. Do you know Vince McMahon personally? If Vince likes control so much why does he have television deals in place that give him very little control? I could go on and on but nobody knows what makes Vince tick or whats important to him now or back then.

Again your pretending like they have had the chance to make someone into the next Rock or Austin and made sure it didn't happen. John Cena would be feuding with D Lo Brown for the I.C title in the era where Undertaker, Mankind, Triple H, Kurt Angle, The Rock, Austin were all in the main event.

There is no way to say they don't want a star that big because they haven't HAD a star that big. Its not like John Cena is anywhere NEAR the star that Rock and Austin are and they decided to squash that by toning him down. He's MORE popular now than he's ever been and he's still not half of what they were.

As far as Rock and Austin leaving hurting the company. That has nothing to do with them being too big and leaving unbalanced the company. They still had The Undertaker, Kurt Angle etc and that had nothing to do with them leaving and everything to do with the writing team doing exactly what they clowned on WCW for doing. They grabbed a main event team of guys and rode them into stardom and when those guys started to leave or spend time injured they didn't have anyone else built up to take their place.

Its cute to have conspiracy theories that Vince is this all controlling dictator but if this were the case why would he have let Austin and The Rock get as big as they did? When Hogan declined the company dropped MUCH farther than it did when Rock and Austin left. When Hogan left the company nearly when bankrupt. When Rock and Austin left they went from doing 5.0's every week on t.v and getting 500,000 ppv buys to doing 3.5's and 300,000 buys per ppv.

While we're at it why don't we talk about everybody in pro wrestlings personality. I mean we all know them on a personal level so well. We know exactly where their values lay and in what order so we might as well just start going down the line. Seriously this whole Vince has to have ultimate control schtick is about as old as "HHH sleeps with the bosses daughter" and "glass ceiling omgz"

[ampulator]

Look, I don't have to know Vince's personality. Just LOOK at the public history. He built Hogan up. Hogan leaving cost him. Vince built Austin and the Rock. Them leaving hurt him.

Does Vince want to go throught that again? Maybe, maybe not. He wants the money he gets from having a megastar. He has tried to make another one (John Cena). In fact, there are several people they can push. They won't be the Rock/Austin/Hogan level, but they CAN be RIGHT below it. They can do it right now. They have the right people, and the right tools. Why won't they do it then?

Like I said, they want to have their cake and eat it too. If they can't have that, they will just take the cake.

[LoganRodzen]

No, he wants the megastar, he just doesn't the issues that comes with having a megastar. Like I said before, wanthing to have your cake and eat it too.

That's what I meant. The positives to having a mega-star are endless, but the negatives far outweigh the positives.

[Stennick]

It has nothing to do with cake and eating it to. Its a different product. The Rock and Austin wouldn't even be as big as they were with this product. Austin has said so himself that he wouldn't have gotten over in a PG environment.

I'd curious as to who they could push that would be right below Austin and The Rock. CM Punk is good but he's not even in the top five in charisma in the E let alone does he have the main stream look that Austin and The Rock had. John Morrison has the look but he has even less mic skills than you'd expect.

John Cena IS right below Rock and Austin in terms of populary and star power. I don't know of three other guys on the roster that can get as big as John Cena is.

Business didn't go down near that much when Rock and Austin left. They left in 02 ratings were in teh 4.0's, now days ratings are still in the 3.5's. They have grown their international markets. Point being is they have gotten creative and been able to sell the WWE as a BRAND. So when people buy PPV's they do it because its the WWE not because they want to see Rock Austin or Cena.

In 1998 it was Rock, Austin, Taker, HHH, etc. that was making the company money. Now days its the WWE name brand that sells. Literally everything they do now days is focused more on the brand than the wrestler. I bet you hear the word WWE Universe on television more than a single wrestler outside of John Cena.

Rock and Austin leaving didn't do near the damage that people think it did. Heck Austin was hurt from 99-01 anyway. People forget Austin had about two good years in 97-99, he was hurt most of 2000 and he turned heel in 01. So Austin as a super selling babyface was only about two years or so. He made an impact sure but by 2001 they had already made the decision that Austin as a top drawing babyface wasn't in the companies plans anymore. Also by 2001 The Rock was headed to make a summer blockbuster movie, he missed the entire InVasion Angle.

So by 2001 the WWE had already written Austin and The Rock out of most storylines. It wasn't them that made the WWE fall in popularity it was the creative teams mis handling of the company's direction from roughly that time period on.

[ampulator]

Actually, John Cena, is at best, 3 levels below the Rock and Austin right now. He could be more...

[LoganRodzen]

Actually, John Cena, is at best, 3 levels below the Rock and Austin right now. He could be more...

I don't think he can. I think Vince realizes he went about the Cena thing the wrong way. He took the same exact approach as he did with Hogan. He shoved Hogan down everyones throats back in the 80's/early 90's and he's done the same with Cena in the 00's.

[PeterHilton]

That's what I meant. The positives to having a mega-star are endless, but the negatives far outweigh the positives.

How so? not being argumentative..I'm being serious.

How do the negatives (they leave) outweigh the positives ( years of massive buyrates, massive ratings, a giant surge in popularity and public awareness, millions of dollars in merchandise and DVD sales, an increase in the value of stock) of having a star of the Rock and Austin's level?

EDIT: going back to this comparison...Lebron James left the Cleveland NBA franchise. Does anyone honestly believe that Cleveland team wouldn't draft another star of Lebron's level in a heartbeat if they had the chance?

[LoganRodzen]

How so? not being argumentative..I'm being serious.

How do the negatives (they leave) outweigh the positives (massive buyrates, massive ratings, a giant surge in popularity and public awareness, millions of dollars in merchandise and DVD sales, an increase in the value of stock) of having a star of the Rock and Austin's level?

I understand. Bear with me though - booze has taken its toll on me today. I'm slower than usual (which isn't by much). :o Think of it as if it were TEW... when you build a massive star what are the downsides? He wants a massive pay check, merchandise cut, PPV cut, travel cut, creative control, etc. I understand that the PPV buys, merchandise, etc. are massive in real life and thinking of it like a video game is stupid... but is it all that different? These guys ego's become massive and all they want is bigger and better things. They become complacent in their lifestyles instead of being hungry for more.

Vince doesn't want to create a guy with 100 popularity throughout North America just to have him leave him out in the cold. I stick to my point about Austin not making anybody into a star... what did WWE ever gain from Austin beyond massive cash flow? I truly don't think he helped any wrestler... ever.

Even if he did help Rock out... he ended up leaving too, so it didn't accomplish anything.

[Stennick]

Yeah even if that player left after three years the positives WAY outweigh the negatives. I agree.

[PeterHilton]

I understand. Bear with me though - booze has taken its toll on me today. I'm slower than usual (which isn't by much). :o Think of it as if it were TEW... when you build a massive star what are the downsides? He wants a massive pay check, merchandise cut, PPV cut, travel cut, creative control, etc. I understand that the PPV buys, merchandise, etc. are massive in real life and thinking of it like a video game is stupid... but is it all that different? These guys ego's become massive and all they want is bigger and better things. They become complacent in their lifestyles instead of being hungry for more.

It's really different.

You're talking about doubling the level of their current business. No one would say no to that just to keep from dealing with personality issues and ego problems

Vince doesn't want to create a guy with 100 popularity throughout North America just to have him leave him out in the cold. I stick to my point about Austin not making anybody into a star... what did WWE ever gain from Austin beyond massive cash flow? I truly don't think he helped any wrestler... ever.

Even if he did help Rock out... he ended up leaving too, so it didn't accomplish anything.

I think you're underrating massive cash flow. :p

And it accomplished quite a lot because that incredible surge in popularity kept them successful and relevant for YEARS. There's quite a few fans around today (hell there might be members of the roster that wouldn't even be wrestlers) that probably wouldn't be following the E if not for guys like Rocky and Austin

There's just no way to put a number to what having a star that big means.

It's worth it. Totally worth it.

[Stennick]

Yeah I don't even know how the argument has lasted this long. The positives of having a mega star on that level far outweigh any and all negatives. Plus neither Rock or Austin were ever that hard to deal with from what I remember. Austin didn't like JJ and didn't want to job to Lesnar on a random show but other than that both of these guys put over tons of people.

The only reason the WWE doesn't have a star like that today is because there isn't anyone on that level. It has nothing to do with them not wanting it, or preventing it. Flat out they don't have the talent around for it to happen.

Peter's right the popularity the WWE had in the 2000's. Come on an 8.4 segment rating, you guys realize that there are network television shows that don't get an 8.4 segment rating. That popularity kept them alive long after they left. As Peter said there are guys on the roster that are wrestlers BECAUSE of Rock and Austin.

I don't think people realize just what kind of crazy money Austin and The Rock were making in all facets seen and unseen for that company. Also I don't think people realize that the Rock and Austin weren't making NEAR what they were worth.

[ampulator]

Vince let them get to that level because he needed it. He needed Hogan to get to level. He CAN let Cena get to that level... but he does he believe he needs it? Mark my words, if wrestling hasn't gone further if or because nothing new is implemented, then you will see how, not if, correct I am.

[PeterHilton]

Vince let them get to that level because he needed it. He needed Hogan to get to level. He CAN let Cena get to that level... but he does he believe he needs it? Mark my words, if wrestling hasn't gone further if or because nothing new is implemented, then you will see how, not if, correct I am.

Again..this sounds ridiculous. Just laughably, stupidly improbable:rolleyes:

THEY STARTED A MOVIE DIVISION FOR CENA...

What exactly is left to do that Vince is keeping in his back pockets to prevent Cena from achieving the Rock level of fame?

[TheEdgeOfReason]

So what you're saying is that you think Vince would rather trundle along for the next 4 years with rating and buys as they are rather than have a mega star who bumps ratings way up and buys too. Makes him a bundle of cash, possibly cause a few problems backstage(which is what you seem to think worries him) and raises exposure of the WWE brand worldwide. Then leaves? I know if I was Vince I would kill for a Rock or Austin mega star.

Is it me or are there alot of Cleveland fans posting today?

[ampulator]

Again..this sounds ridiculous. Just laughably, stupidly improbable:rolleyes:

THEY STARTED A MOVIE DIVISION FOR CENA...

What exactly is left to do that Vince is keeping in his back pockets to prevent Cena from achieving the Rock level of fame?
Actually booking him correctly?

So what you're saying is that you think Vince would rather trundle along for the next 4 years with rating and buys as they are rather than have a mega star who bumps rating way up and buys too. Makes him a bundle of cash, possibly cause a few problems backstage(which is what you seem to think worries him) and raises exposure of the WWE brand worldwide. Then leaves? I know if I was Vince I would kill for a Rock or Austin mega star.

You are correct, but half-way. He wants the megastar. He just doesn't want the megastar problems. But you can't have the megastar without the megastar problems, can you?

[LoganRodzen]

Yeah I don't even know how the argument has lasted this long. The positives of having a mega star on that level far outweigh any and all negatives. Plus neither Rock or Austin were ever that hard to deal with from what I remember. Austin didn't like JJ and didn't want to job to Lesnar on a random show but other than that both of these guys put over tons of people.

I've read stories that label Austin as big of a whiny superstar as HBK was back in the 90's. And from what I've read Austin was as humble as can be in ECW and anything before WWF. I think you guys are underestimating a massive ego. ;)

[Stennick]

Its not a matter of Vince LETTING John get to that level. What more can he do? John's been in what three or four in theater movies. He's been at the Fiesta Bowl, he's been on the red carpet. He's been World Champion for longer than all but three men in the history of the company. He hardly EVER loses.

Seriously I don't know what more they could do. So how could Vince "let" Cena get bigger than he already has? Seriously in what conceivable way could Vince "let" Cena get bigger? And yes he needs it.

You want to talk about control that Vince craves? What more control is there than when negotiating with television and other areas of revenue than to say "I have the single most popular live entertainer in the world. To look at USA and say "I'm drawing double the ratings I was last year. When his contract is up. To be able to drop limitless John Cena merchandise.

Simply put like Peter said when you get a star like the Rock and Austin they alone can double what you're already doing television wise. You guys have to remember before Austin, Rock, and to a lesser extent Sting came around in the mid 90's with their characters NOBODY was watching pro wrestling. They were combining for about a 3.0 for the night. Four years later they were drawing a combined 10 or 11. What I'm saying is The Rock, Austin, Sting, nWo, these mega stars were able to not double or triple business but they were doing FOUR times the business that was going on. Thats what a megastar brings to the table.

You don't think Vince would want to be doing two or three times the business he's doing now? Just for fear Cena leaves. So what if he leaves in two years. Those two years are going to get you better television deals, more merchandise, better advertising, etc. To say Vince doesn't want anybody to get that big because they'll leave is silly. You milk them 365 days a year until they do leave. They will have made more money for you in those two years than most of the rest of your roster combined. I can't even believe people really believe Vince wouldn't want The Rock or Austin back.

Let me ask you this would Vince turn down The Rock if he asked to come back to wrestling? HELL NO he wouldn't. So whats the difference?

EDIT: You guys are kidding me right? I mean come on "megastar problems". Randy Orton, Triple H, JBL these guys caused problems without making half the money these other guys have. Seriously guys I think your reading way too much into this. You can't honestly believe that Vince wouldn't welcome The Rock back in a heartbeat. What you guys are saying is he'd say "well Rock I'd like to have you back but I don't want to pay you what you'll command and I don't want to deal with your ego so no thanks". Are you kidding me? He'd be on every show Vince could get him on. Ever minute he could let him be on it.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Actually booking him correctly?



You are correct, but half-way. He wants the megastar. He just doesn't want the megastar problems. But you can't have the megastar without the megastar problems, can you?

If he really doesn't want the problems then you job him out and let him go.:rolleyes: You go back to your previous level of business and have the cash from that period to show for it.

[PeterHilton]

Actually booking him correctly?

ohhhhhhh...you're one of THOSE people.

ok smarky..nevermind. I don't want to debate your ideas on how you think Cena could be 'booked correctly' to make him a bigger star than he is now.

[ampulator]

If he really doesn't want the problems then you job him out and let him go.:rolleyes: You go back to your previous level of business and have the cash from that period to show for it.
The point of a megastar is that you CAN"T just job him out... he's reached critical mass, to the point, where what YOU do to him won't work. Jobbing him out only angers the fans, instead of the intended effect of lowering his popularity.

ohhhhhhh...you're one of THOSE people.

ok smarky..nevermind. I don't want to debate your ideas on how you think Cena could be 'booked correctly' to make him a bigger star than he is now.

I am a smark. And yes, I do have ideas. But that's beyond the point. It's not what MY ideas should be... it's how WWE should do it the right way. They have done some things these few months... but we need more of that, not less.

[Slim Jim]

Any time I feel there's a slight chance of seeing Rock or Austin, I'll stay up to watch Raw live at 2AM. Otherwise I only tune in if it happens to be on while I happen to be awake and not doing anything else. That's how big a draw they both still are for some Attitude Era fans.

[PeterHilton]

I've read stories that label Austin as big of a whiny superstar as HBK was back in the 90's. And from what I've read Austin was as humble as can be in ECW and anything before WWF. I think you guys are underestimating a massive ego. ;)

Big stars in every business that involves the public get massive egos

No one is cutting off 50% of their business to deal with a bunch of 'nice guys'

It would be crazy.

[PeterHilton]

I am a smark. And yes, I do have ideas. But that's beyond the point. It's not what MY ideas should be... it's how WWE should do it the right way. They have done some things these few months... but we need more of that, not less.

lolwut

Yes, yes...it's not just my opinion it's the truth.

whatever

[Stennick]

Michael Jordan wasn't a "nice guy" on or off the court. Shaq has never been a "nice guy, Nor has Kobe, Lebron's not a saint, A.I, KG, T Mac thats just basketball.

Bret Favre is anything but a nice guy and look what the Vikes are willing to do for him. T.O is the very substance of what a modern athlete is and the guy has NEVER hurt for not only work but he's always worked on contenders.

So yeah the massive ego and megastar problem arguments are just plan silly.

[LoganRodzen]

Michael Jordan wasn't a "nice guy" on or off the court. Shaq has never been a "nice guy, Nor has Kobe, Lebron's not a saint, A.I, KG, T Mac thats just basketball.

Bret Favre is anything but a nice guy and look what the Vikes are willing to do for him. T.O is the very substance of what a modern athlete is and the guy has NEVER hurt for not only work but he's always worked on contenders.

So yeah the massive ego and megastar problem arguments are just plan silly.

Is it silly? What teams are interested in T.O? Perhaps it's due to age considering he hasn't really had any personality problems recently... but to say that the massive ego problems are "silly" is a silly way to just write it off. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, John Cena is the epitome of a 'company man' and Vince never has to worry about his ego getting massive. Cena would be at the level of Rock/Austin if Vince could get him there, but the crowd just doesn't buy that Cena/Hogan fan favorite character anymore. It's a new day in age.

P.S. Can we continue this discussion for a while? My post count is starting to really take shape. :)

[jwt13]

Michael Jordan wasn't a "nice guy" on or off the court. Shaq has never been a "nice guy, Nor has Kobe, Lebron's not a saint, A.I, KG, T Mac thats just basketball.

Bret Favre is anything but a nice guy and look what the Vikes are willing to do for him. T.O is the very substance of what a modern athlete is and the guy has NEVER hurt for not only work but he's always worked on contenders.

So yeah the massive ego and megastar problem arguments are just plan silly.

T.O has no job so yes he is hurting for work and nobody is intrested he dont have the value he used to his ego overweighs his talent now

[PeterHilton]

Is it silly? What teams are interested in T.O? Perhaps it's due to age considering he hasn't really had any personality problems recently... but to say that the massive ego problems are "silly" is a silly way to just write it off. Whether anybody wants to admit it or not, John Cena is the epitome of a 'company man' and Vince never has to worry about his ego getting massive. Cena would be at the level of Rock/Austin if Vince could get him there, but the crowd just doesn't buy that Cena/Hogan fan favorite character anymore. It's a new day in age.

Those are two different arguments though.

All teams/companies/etc are willing to deal with a certain amount of ego based on production. As has been pointed out, Orton and Trips (not to mention Batista) have had issues backstage but the WWE continued to push them

Cena IS a company guy, but mainly because he knows he's not a big enough star or popular enough to leave the way Rock and Austin did.

Now...if you want to say the product is a bit out of date, that's fine, but it has nothing to do with whether or not the E would want a massive star.

I'm completely dismissing the idea that the WWE is purposely booking Cena incorrectly to nerf his popularity. It's retardedly smarkish.

If the E could bring back or re-create another star on the level of The Rock and SCSA, they would.

I just can't see how it could be otherwise.

[Stennick]

T.O has no job because he's pushing 40. The Cowboys snatched him up when he drug McNabb through the mud without hesitating. T.O hasn't been out of work one season until this year and that has everything to do with his skills and nothing to do with his attitude since he was actually quiet last year.

What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.

[PeterHilton]

What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.

I'd actually extend that to every level of industry where the public is involved.

Mel Gibson has always ALWAYS made insane statements, but he was a ginormous star. Now that his worth is on the decline, and the level of insanity on his statements has gone up, he's not worth it and he won't make movies for a while.

DO we even need to talk about the music stars who are total d-bags but stay in the industry because they sell CDs?

As long as the good outweighs the bad, people put up with it.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

The point of a megastar is that you CAN"T just job him out... he's reached critical mass, to the point, where what YOU do to him won't work. Jobbing him out only angers the fans, instead of the intended effect of lowering his popularity.

When did jobbing out The Rock or SCSA anger the fans? Did they turn off the tv? Stop buying ppvs?

I am a smark. And yes, I do have ideas. But that's beyond the point. It's not what MY ideas should be... it's how WWE should do it the right way. They have done some things these few months... but we need more of that, not less.

You make it sound like you don't think those are the same thing.

[LoganRodzen]

T.O has no job because he's pushing 40. The Cowboys snatched him up when he drug McNabb through the mud without hesitating. T.O hasn't been out of work one season until this year and that has everything to do with his skills and nothing to do with his attitude since he was actually quiet last year.

What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.

Agreed on the T.O thing. It's his age and nothing else. He wants a certain amount of cash that his age just can't get. It's too bad really, because if he had someone worth a damn throwing to him he could have one last really good season. The guy was one of the best WR's in the game and to never win a Super Bowl is a shame.

The whole Favre thing angers me to be honest. I would have told him to **** off after last season. If you don't give us a "I'm playing with you guys" or "I'm retired" announcement quick then I'd rather take my chances on Tarvaris Jackson. Favre has shown he doesn't need training camp to be season-ready, but his shenanigans are ridiculous and no team needs that crap whether or not the guy is a future hall of famer or not.

Is the guy gonna go down as one of the best QBs ever? Yes. Is he going to go down as a person who dragged his team and the media through the mud months and months before a season? Yes. I find his "am I retired or not?" thing just as arrogant as Lebron's free agency announcement special on ESPN.

[Stennick]

I still believe T.O will get a team before the season starts. Really the problem with T.O has always been his hands. He's always been high on the dropped pass end of things. If T.O had the hands of some of the other WR's in the league he might have gone down as the most dominant receiver since Rice.

Anyway I think this entire talk has been played out and I can't imagine any new points being brought up now.

I hear HHH is out until December. If thats the case are they really going to run Nexus that long? I still doubt they turn Cena heel.

[Jaysin]

Wow, didn't realize that video was going to cause such a stir.

[ampulator]

When did jobbing out The Rock or SCSA anger the fans? Did they turn off the tv? Stop buying ppvs?


You miss out on my point, though. What I mean is, jobbing them out has no real discernable effect on their popularity because fans won't accept it, rather, it only angers them. Jobbing them out won't work as a way to keep them down once they reach critical mass.


You make it sound like you don't think those are the same thing.
Because they aren't? There are some things I disagree with, but I can understand the logic and reasoning behind them, and there are some things I disagree with and really dumb for them to do, period.

The first category is a matter of opinion. The second is a matter of fact. For example, I don't think pushing Wade Barrett is a good idea, but I understand the reasoning and logic behind it. The second would be a Zach Gowen; that was just plain stupid. Or having Mark Henry have a travestite blowjob. Or Katie Vick. Just moronic.

i can disagree with something but accept it reluctantly, but there are some things that are simply unnacceptable.

[Candyman]

T.O has no job because he's pushing 40. The Cowboys snatched him up when he drug McNabb through the mud without hesitating. T.O hasn't been out of work one season until this year and that has everything to do with his skills and nothing to do with his attitude since he was actually quiet last year.

What about Favre, the guy has done everything how he's wanted to and the Vikes are willing to wait forever on the guy. The point is star athletes may cause problems but the good outweighs the bad.

No offense but do you even follow football? It's ridiculous beyond words to even mention TO and Brett Favre in the same post, let alone insinuate they're remotely similiar in terms of attitude.

TO called his quarterback gay in San Francisco. He wasn't happy with his individual production there, so he forced his way out. Then when he didn't like where he was traded, he refused to report until they sent him somewhere else. He got his wish again, signed a seven year deal, and after one season demanded to renegotiate. When the team refused, he literally tore the team apart from the inside out. He was such a cancer that he was suspended for the maximum number of games allowed and then paid to sit at home for the rest of the season. Seriously - they were willing to pay him to stay away from the team. That doesn't sound like the good was outweighing the bad.

What has Brett Favre done that's remotely comparable to any of that? Which teammates has he pubically attacked? When did he holdout? When did he force a suspension and a paid vacation? Ok, he takes his time deciding if he's going to play. Green Bay didn't have a problem with it until the last season - and when they did, they simply traded him. Minnesota's never had a problem with it. Their coach has repeatedly said that there's no timetable. And I've never seen one thing that indicates he's anything but the best teammate imaginable once he joins the team.

[Candyman]

Because they aren't.p There are some things i disagree with, but i can understand the logic and reasoning behind them, and there are some things i disagree with and really dumb for them to do, period.

The first category is a matter of opinion. The second is a matter of fact. For example, i don't think pushing Wade Barrett is a good idea, but i understand the reasoning and logic behind it. The second would be a Zach Gowen; that was just plain stupid.

I don't think you understand that what you're describing as a matter of fact is still nothing but opinion.

[ampulator]

But I don't think it's opinion? It's plain as day that having Mark Henry being giving a travestite blowjob is a bad idea. That didn't get anyone over, it made Mark Henry look like a fool, and it gave bad publicity. Zach Gowen... one legged wrestler. I don't think I have to say anymore on that.

In any, it's pretty darn obvious that Cena CAN be bigger. I once that too, but that doesn't seem to be ever the case, if you look what the WWE can do and has done. The WWE can't push crap... but they can push averages. Look, people thought that they could have never pushed Triple H. They did. People thought they couldn't push Batista. They did. Heck, people thought the Rock couldn't get over. Need I say more?

lolwut

Yes, yes...it's not just my opinion it's the truth.

whatever

Don't dismiss out of hand just because you think I'm wrong. I'm not dismissing anything YOU are saying, so you shouldn't dismiss anything I am saying, either. I just disagree with your opinion, and some of your conclusions (and some of facts, or at least your usage).

[TheEdgeOfReason]

You miss out on my point, though. What I mean is, jobbing them out has no real discernable effect on their popularity because fans won't accept it, rather, it only angers them. Jobbing them out won't work as a way to keep them down once they reach critical mass.

Yeah, I don't understand. What do you mean by it angers the fans?(Why is that a bad thing?)

The reaction when a heel goes over a face is supposed to be one of anger/sadness. Why would you want to bring them down anyway? The point of jobbing them would be to bring other guys to their level, not drag them down to the level the other guys are at.

[ampulator]

Yeah, I don't understand. What do you mean by it angers the fans?(Why is that a bad thing?)

The reaction when a heel goes over a face is supposed to be one of anger/sadness. Why would you want to bring them down anyway? The point of jobbing them would be to bring other guys to their level, not drag them down to the level the other guys are at.
Again, you miss out on my point. Jobbing them out would be a way to hurt their popularity, as a way to keep them from going critical mass. But once they reached that point, jobbing them out wasn't going to work. You think I'm saying that them losing to others while actually losing no popularity is the issue. It isn't.

What we think of "yo-yo" pushes is really a way to control how popular a wrestler is. You've seen this Mark Henry. Last year, he was beating Randy Orton. This year, his jobbing out to Wade Barrett. It's way to make sure they don't get more popular than WWE think they should.

The other conclusion is that, instead of WWE being controlling, it's that they are incompetent.

So, in fact, the only other conclusion is the WWE has idiotically bungled Mark Henry's, R-Truth's, Jack Swagger's, Dolph Ziggler's, and a lot of other's pushes because they don't just don't know how to do it right.

Or they are intentionally doing it, or they aren't. If they are, they are being controlling. If they aren't, they are being incompetent.

I rather think they are just being over-controlling, rather than being utterly incompetent.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Again, you miss out on my point. Jobbing them out would be a way to hurt their popularity, as a way to keep them from going critical mass. But once they reached that point, jobbing them out wasn't going to work. You think I'm saying that them losing to others while actually losing no popularity is the issue. It isn't.

What we think of "yo-yo" pushes is really a way to control how popular a wrestler is. You've seen this Mark Henry. Last year, he was beating Randy Orton. This year, his jobbing out to Wade Barrett. It's way to make sure they don't get more popular than WWE think they should.

The other conclusion is that, instead of WWE being controlling, it's that they are incompetent.

So, in fact, the only other conclusion is the WWE has idiotically bungled Mark Henry's, R-Truth's, Jack Swagger's, Dolph Ziggler's, and a lot of other's pushes because they don't just don't know how to do it right.

Or they are intentionally doing it, or they aren't. If they are, they are being controlling. If they aren't, they are being incompetent.

I rather think they are just being over-controlling, rather than being utterly incompetent.

Well if its a case of being controlling, why don't they bring 4/5 guys to the level of John Cena popularity, it would make them so much stronger as a company.

[ampulator]

Well... they can't do it for everyone. But I can see it for some of them. The Miz. Kofi Kingston. Cody Rhodes. Maybe Wade Barrett and John Morrison. I dislike Morrison's ringwork, and Wade Barrett doesn't impress me... but I can see why they would push them.

They are trying hard to push Sheamus, Drew McIntyre, and Ted Dibiase, but they also suffer the same problem. They are very solid in terms of ringwork, but very, very basic. Lacking a some psychology, flash, charisma, and/or knowledge of brawling/technical/flying moves.

[shadowflame]

Lol

[lazorbeak]

You go out to play some sports and an argument breaks out! I agree with everybody arguing that the baseline revenue increases FAR outweigh the potential side effects of them getting a big ego and/or becoming too big for the business. Yeah it hurts when Hogan jumps to WCW in the mid 90's but would Vince trade 8 years of record breaking business? Hogan/Andre? Hogan/Savage? Hogan/Warrior? I doubt it.

Now a couple of fact checks:

Second..Logan your brain is screwy because Austin put over The Rock big time early in their rivalry (although you could argue Rocky would've been a star regardless) and then, when Triple H made his jump to the main event in 01, it was his feud with Austin (specifically going over clean at No Way in that 2-of-3 fall match) that cemented him as a main eventer.

Austin put the Rock over early in their rivalry? Austin beat the Rock (and beat down the Nation) in 5 minutes to defend his IC belt and then literally gave the Rock the belt in 1997. Rock then got over without any interaction with Austin for 11 months to the point that by Survivor Series 1998 he was getting Austin level babyface reactions, then did the screw-job redux, feuded with Mankind, and only worked with Austin again in '99, with Austin going over. So no, Austin didn't put Rock over big time, and yeah, Rock did become a star regardless.

And Triple H had been a main eventer for 18 months by the time Austin put him over at No Way Out: Austin specifically refused to put Triple H over at Summerslam 1999, leading to Mankind's one day reign. Now it's not Austin's fault he didn't work with Triple H in the meantime as he spent most of the next year dealing with injuries and recharging his batteries, but Triple H had already won the main event of Wrestlemania by the time he beat Austin. Rock, Mankind, and Vince McMahon busted their asses to make Triple H a top guy, but that had nothing to do with Austin.

Maybe you were thinking of Triple H retaining the title over Austin at No Mercy in 1999, where Austin did job, albeit not cleanly, to Triple H after the Rock accidentally hit him with a sledgehammer.

First of all, Autin didn't exactly leave. He would still be in the ring to this day if it wasn't for Owen and some other injuries. And the Rock...well,yes he is the only one having a succesfull career...but he is not a leading man to any extent and in any degree. A good career,but he's not the next Schwarzennegger. Not yet at least. And i doubt he'll get bigger. From now on...down is the way. And he will end up returning like they all do.

This is also ridiculous. Dwayne Johnson is the definition of a "leading man." He was the lead in the Tooth Fairy (60 mil domestic), Area 51 (40 mil domestic), Race to Witch Mountain (67 mil domestic), and the Game Plan (96 mil domestic) in the past 3 years, and a featured player in Get Smart (130 mil domestic). That's starring in 4 movies and being featured in 5 in 3 years time He's not the next Ahnold because he's not trying to be an action star, and he won't be coming back as an active wrestler, because he is making millions more doing a lot less. Plus he's actually a good actor, so it's not like he'll all of a sudden be unable to find work.


As far as why Cena isn't bigger, the thing is, one guy by himself can only be so over. Austin got so big in part because McMahon was also that over. Rock and Triple H became big stars because the crowd wanted to see the two fight each other. As big a deal as Hogan was, his feud with Andre made him the biggest star on the planet. Wrestling is not a sport where one guy can just be vaulted above absolutely everyone else for any sustained period of time. As over as Cena is (and he is over), it's rare that he goes into feuds with guys that are in a position to make him a bigger star. They fed HBK and HHH to him, but after that, who else is there on that same level? Undertaker?

[shadowflame]

OOOOOOOOOOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH sic burn

[Stennick]

No offense but do you even follow football? It's ridiculous beyond words to even mention TO and Brett Favre in the same post, let alone insinuate they're remotely similiar in terms of attitude.

TO called his quarterback gay in San Francisco. He wasn't happy with his individual production there, so he forced his way out. Then when he didn't like where he was traded, he refused to report until they sent him somewhere else. He got his wish again, signed a seven year deal, and after one season demanded to renegotiate. When the team refused, he literally tore the team apart from the inside out. He was such a cancer that he was suspended for the maximum number of games allowed and then paid to sit at home for the rest of the season. Seriously - they were willing to pay him to stay away from the team. That doesn't sound like the good was outweighing the bad.

What has Brett Favre done that's remotely comparable to any of that? Which teammates has he pubically attacked? When did he holdout? When did he force a suspension and a paid vacation? Ok, he takes his time deciding if he's going to play. Green Bay didn't have a problem with it until the last season - and when they did, they simply traded him. Minnesota's never had a problem with it. Their coach has repeatedly said that there's no timetable. And I've never seen one thing that indicates he's anything but the best teammate imaginable once he joins the team.

No offense but do you even read the news? The following are just the first two links I found when I googled Bret and the New York Jets. I won't even go into the he said she said of the GB/Bret situation.

http://www.satelliteguys.us/sports-section/159718-favre-teammates-now-throwing-him-under.html

http://www.jsonline.com/sports/packers/36986889.html

You're mis understanding what I'm saying so no offense taken. I'm an incredibly huge football nut. Although I will say I bet you if I googled Bret Favre I could find five or ten different articles on him taking shots at Green Bay, his teamates in NY taking shots at him and about how rough things were at the start of this Vikings career because of missing training camp and not signing until the last minute. I'm not saying he's a bad guy but to say you've never heard of him being anything but a good team player is kind of silly.

All that being said I'm not saying their the same TYPE of locker room distraction but none the less they are both locker room distractions. You know that if you hire Bret Favre on to QB your team the media are going to be breathing down your neck all pre season long as well as there may be some inner resentment that Bret is sitting out camp. So you can't tell me there isn't SOME "megastar" setbacks to having Bret Favre on your team. Are they the same as T.O'.s "setbacks" no but set backs are setbacks IMO. When you're on that level as a player to the point where the things you do distract the rest of the team and reflect highly on your team thats the category those guys are both in.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Just to throw in there, Chilly tries to bench Favre during the Panthers game last year. Favre wouldn't allow it.

[lazorbeak]

What we think of "yo-yo" pushes is really a way to control how popular a wrestler is. You've seen this Mark Henry. Last year, he was beating Randy Orton. This year, his jobbing out to Wade Barrett. It's way to make sure they don't get more popular than WWE think they should.

Really? I must've missed the show where Henry cleanly pinned Randy Orton in a meaningful match on PPV. Wait, that never happened! Henry won a throwaway TV match minutes after Orton had just wrestled somebody else. Henry was never booked as a main eventer on Orton's level, ever, so it's not particularly surprising that he's in the same spot now he was in a year ago.


So, in fact, the only other conclusion is the WWE has idiotically bungled Mark Henry's, R-Truth's, Jack Swagger's, Dolph Ziggler's, and a lot of other's pushes because they don't just don't know how to do it right.


Wait, what? Everyone that isn't in the main event had their push idiotically bungled? Because they.... lost matches? You know, not everyone can be a winner at the PPV? Not everyone can be in the main event. It's a fact of life that the guys that are in the main event tend to beat these guys when it comes to the nitty gritty because WWE has invested in guys like Cena, Orton, Edge, Jericho, Big Show, Undertaker, Mysterio and HHH as their top guys. If we push Evan Bourne into the main event, whose spot is he going to take? Is he going to draw more money than Triple H has? Is Dolph Ziggler going to replace Undertaker as a locker room leader?

That's not to say there's no upward mobility. Once John Cena was at the level Jack Swagger, Dolph Ziggler, R-Truth and the rest were at. But through hard work, dedication, charisma, and solid booking, he started getting reactions at the main event level and JBL, Jericho, Angle, and Triple H put him over in the course of a year to solidify him as a top guy.


Or they are intentionally doing it, or they aren't. If they are, they are being controlling. If they aren't, they are being incompetent.

I rather think they are just being over-controlling, rather than being utterly incompetent.

You seem to think WWE is incompetent for not throwing everybody in the main event, but their goal has never been to make everybody a top guy. The industry can't support that: only so many guys can be at the top at any one time. It's a business and that business requires guys on the top, more guys in the middle, and even more guys at the bottom to make the middle guys look strong.

[Stennick]

Just to throw in there, Chilly tries to bench Favre during the Panthers game last year. Favre wouldn't allow it.

Yeah they had a shouting match or two on the sidelines where it took them a week to make up. It was a huge story and people were clowning Chilly for letting Favre tell him what to do. So to say Favre is a fantastic teammate is silly. I don't watch football but somehow all of these Favre incidents never happened? I'm not saying the guy is T.O and that wasn't my intention but they guy is less than perfect as a teammate and to say you've never heard anything bad said about him is silly.

[ampulator]

That's true, but they can be CLOSE to being the top guy, if they aren't the top guy. The way they do it now is just one top guy, a few near-top guys, and everyone else is chop liver.

[The Final Countdown]

Is Dolph Ziggler going to replace Undertaker as a locker room leader?
Heck yes! He can take care of any troublemakers with his vaunted sleeper hold!

[ampulator]

The thing is, WWE's ringwork has gone down the drain for a while. Yes, you don't need a lot of ringwork to get the job done. But you need SOMETHING. Hogan was pretty much the absolute minimum in terms of ringwork. Any less, and it's doesn't really cut it. There's no one even on his level right now, in terms of ringwork for a top guy.

Seriously, who wants to see the Cena/Batista, Cena/Orton, or Cena/HHH matches again? They were awkward at best, botchy at worst. They tried to put them against each other in several combos, but either everyone has bad chemistry together (improbable), WWE is overscripting (possible, but every time?), or someone is just plain not working out.

Even though WWE isn't about matches and ringwork, the big payoff IS the matches. Even if there regular matches don't cut it, and they don't need to, their big payoff matches do.... but they don't. Say what you will about matches and ringwork in general... the Big Payoff matches MUST be good. Otherwise, it's going to go over like a popcorn fart in a crowded theater.

[Stennick]

The thing is, WWE's ringwork has gone down the drain for a while. Yes, you don't need a lot of ringwork to get the job done. But you need SOMETHING. Hogan was pretty much the absolute minimum in terms of ringwork. Any less, and it's doesn't really cut it. There's no one even on his level right now, in terms of ringwork for a top guy.

Seriously, who wants to see the Cena/Batista, Cena/Orton, or Cena/HHH matches again? They were awkward at best, botchy at worst. They tried to put them against each other in several combos, but either everyone has bad chemistry together (improbable), WWE is overscripting (possible, but every time?), or someone is just plain not working out.

Even though WWE isn't about matches and ringwork, the big payoff IS the matches. Even if there regular matches don't cut it, and they don't need to, their big payoff matches do.... but they don't. Say what you will about matches and ringwork in general... the Big Payoff matches MUST be good. Otherwise, it's going to go over like a popcorn fart in a crowded theater.

Are you saying that HHH, Orton, and Cena among others don't have the in ring work that HOGAN had? You're joking right? I'm not a fan of Orton, Cena or HHH but all of them are ten times the wrestler that Hogan was or let me say was in the WWE/F.

Seriously man I think you have a much different view on what pro wrestling is than the rest of the world. Anybody that says HHH, Cena and Orton aren't better wrestlers than Hogan was when he couldn't even do a leg drop correctly I just don't know.

No offense man but I think I'm going to stop responding to your posts because it seems like otherwise I would just be constantly arguing what are in my eyes less than sane thoughts.

[ampulator]

Are you saying that HHH, Orton, and Cena among others don't have the in ring work that HOGAN had? You're joking right? I'm not a fan of Orton, Cena or HHH but all of them are ten times the wrestler that Hogan was or let me say was in the WWE/F.

Seriously man I think you have a much different view on what pro wrestling is than the rest of the world. Anybody that says HHH, Cena and Orton aren't better wrestlers than Hogan was when he couldn't even do a leg drop correctly I just don't know.

No offense man but I think I'm going to stop responding to your posts because it seems like otherwise I would just be constantly arguing what are in my eyes less than sane thoughts.
Sorry I didn't elaborate... what I meant was, in general, their ringwork is not where it should be in the right areas.

Can Triple H, Cena, and Orton brawl, and do better technical moves than Hogan? Yes.

But they don't have is, Hogan's psychology. That's what I meant by ringwork. They just don't have enough it.

Triple H is average in brawling an technical stuff, and he's pretty consistent and has solid fundamentals, but his psychology, at best is good, but there's more to psychology than that.

The reason why I find Drew McIntyre, and Ted Dibiase, for that matter, so boring, is because their psychology, as best described, a seriously of non-conflicting moves and spots. They don't botch their moves or matches, but as a whole, their ringwork doesn't mesh together.

Triple H is at a higher level; his ringwork DOES mesh together. But he's missing the Hogan/Flair level, which no one in WWE has, but something they need to have... the ability to have the match itself draw the crowd in. Hogan always had that. Flair had that, and much more.

Cena, and Orton don't. They barely can do what Triple H does in terms of psychology.

As for ignoring my posts, if I treat you well, you should treat ME well. I think some of your posts are stupid, but I don't dismiss them. You shouldn't ignore me just because you think differently.

And I might have different view from other people, but so do you. I don't think my beliefs are out of the ordinary, though. In fact, out-of-the-ordinary would be Russo. I'm more in-line than you think I am. We see the same facts, but perhaps come to different conclusions and the weigh each fact differently. You question my sanity, but thoughts aren't insane. Insane would be thinking I can become a booker/writer/wrestler. Insane would to think I can jump in the ring and actually take on a wrestler.

Clearly, I'm not insane. Just different from your ideas.

And finally... the argument, or I would prefer, debate, never ends. It shouldn't. The end of the argument where wrestling is headed and/or should be headed would be the end of wrestling itself, because then there wouldn't be anything to debate about anymore, period.

I don't know about you, but I ENJOY this debate. I WANT to be proven wrong. I LIKE it. It actually disappoints me when someone can't prove me wrong. I WANT people to do it.

[MrOnu]

At some point, I'll need to be educated about this ring psychology thing. Even after all those years of watching, I don't think I get what it is supposed to be. Or maybe it's a forest and I can't help but only see the individual trees.

As for what more can be done about Cena, let me throw a curveball here : being a genuine heel for an extended period of time. I can't remember the last time Cena was heel and relevant to the program. Maybe turning him heel for a period could make him an even bigger face on the long run. This is not a magic formula, it could bomb seriously or simply maintain Cena's popularity, who knows, I'm just throwing the suggestion around. Of course, to work, you would need a big face opponent at some point which is not a very common thing these days in the E.

[MrOnu]

Triple H is at a higher level; his ringwork DOES mesh together. But he's missing the Hogan/Flair level, which no one in WWE has, but something they need to have... the ability to have the match itself draw the crowd in. Hogan always had that. Flair had that, and much more.

You might be setting the bar too high on this. Hogan and Flair could very well be the exceptionnal masters of what you described as ring psychology, you know the top 1% of the wrestling population in that particular area. Expecting every other wrestler to be that great could only lead to disappointment. In that scenario, HHH would be above average, let's say the top 25% for the sake of putting a number. Cena, Orton, a good portion of the WWE roster, would be right on the average or slightly above, with the hypothesis that if you're working in the biggest company, unless you have one hell of a freaking selling point (Khali's size as an example), you'd be probably be close to the average on many general aspects of the wrestling craft such a pyschology, selling or fundamentals.

I know it's far from perfect, but it helps to think of many things in life following a good old bell curve ;)

[ampulator]

You might be setting the bar too high on this. Hogan and Flair could very well be the exceptionnal masters of what you described as ring psychology, you know the top 1% of the wrestling population in that particular area. Expecting every other wrestler to be that great could only lead to disappointment. In that scenario, HHH would be above average, let's say the top 25% for the sake of putting a number. Cena, Orton, a good portion of the WWE roster, would be right on the average or slightly above, with the hypothesis that if you're working in the biggest company, unless you have one hell of a freaking selling point (Khali's size as an example), you'd be probably be close to the average on many general aspects of the wrestling craft such a pyschology, selling or fundamentals.

I know it's far from perfect, but it helps to think of many things in life following a good old bell curve ;)
I guess that's a fair point.

Still, shouldn't there be at least ONE person in the WWE that can have the psychology I'm talking about?

I mean, I would rank Triple H's psychology at B. (And I'm a fan of HHH, so this isn't any bias AGAINST him... if anything, some you may believe I favor him too much). C.M. Punk, Kurt Angle, and Bryan Danielson would also be at B. The Miz would be a B-.
The only two I would rank at B+ would have been the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels... but HBK is retired, and in Undertaker's case, his body is too messed up to put his psychology to good use.

[lazorbeak]

At some point, I'll need to be educated about this ring psychology thing. Even after all those years of watching, I don't think I get what it is supposed to be. Or maybe it's a forest and I can't help but only see the individual trees.

As for what more can be done about Cena, let me throw a curveball here : being a genuine heel for an extended period of time. I can't remember the last time Cena was heel and relevant to the program. Maybe turning him heel for a period could make him an even bigger face on the long run. This is not a magic formula, it could bomb seriously or simply maintain Cena's popularity, who knows, I'm just throwing the suggestion around. Of course, to work, you would need a big face opponent at some point which is not a very common thing these days in the E.

I think you're right and I've been saying for a year the guy that should do it is Randy Orton. As played out as their feud was a year ago, with Orton as a babyface still playing a psychotic Cena has a genuine reason to turn: he's done everything for the fans, done all the make-a-wish stuff, and dedicated his life to the sport, but the fans choose to cheer for a psychotic malcontent like Orton. For extra heat some McMahon should come out and basically say Cena is everything they want in a champion and Orton is a disgrace to the belt, his family, etc. then manufacture some screwy finish that takes the belt off Orton and gets it onto Cena. I mean yes at a certain point it's re-hashing the Rock/Austin program but that's a money program and it hasn't been done in 11 years, so it passes the 7 year rule.

[lazorbeak]

I guess that's a fair point.

Still, shouldn't there be at least ONE person in the WWE that can have the psychology I'm talking about?

I mean, I would rank Triple H's psychology at B. (And I'm a fan of HHH, so this isn't any bias AGAINST him... if anything, some you may believe I favor him too much). C.M. Punk, Kurt Angle, and Bryan Danielson would also be at B. The Miz would be a B-.
The only two I would rank at B+ would have been the Undertaker and Shawn Michaels... but HBK is retired, and in Undertaker's case, his body is too messed up to put his psychology to good use.

Dude seriously this isn't the place to bring up what your fantasy stats would be for WWE guys in TEW. And just for comparison, 15 guys active in the US in the C-Verse have an A for psychology. And you're saying 0 WWE guys would match that?

Compare that to the C-Verse, where 7 of those 15 guys work for either SWF or TCW.

[ampulator]

Dude seriously this isn't the place to bring up what your fantasy stats would be for WWE guys in TEW. And just for comparison, 15 guys active in the US in the C-Verse have an A for psychology. And you're saying 0 WWE guys would match that?

Compare that to the C-Verse, where 7 of those 15 guys work for either SWF or TCW.
Another fair point. I concede that too. But to be fair, the Cverse isn't real life, so it's entirely possible that most workers today are lacking in psychology. I do actually believe that's the case.

[Moe Hunter]

At some point, I'll need to be educated about this ring psychology thing. Even after all those years of watching, I don't think I get what it is supposed to be. Or maybe it's a forest and I can't help but only see the individual trees.

Psychology at its most simple level is having the match make sense. It's about having a good flow, and telling a good story. Bret Hart had fantastic psychology - even against similar opponents, he would change his "strategy" so to speak. He did have his combo finish, but it wasn't the be-all end-all of his ring work. Cena on the other hand went for a long, long time just taking a beating then hitting his 5 Moves of Doom. Hogan has been the same for a long time, too.

Matt Hardy has fantastic psychology. For a prime example of this, check out the first 8man MitB match. Multi-Man Ladder matches are often just spotfests (the opposite of a good psychological match), but Matt really shone through here. He convinced his brother Jeff to do the super high-risk dive that broke the ladder outside. This eliminated his most hated rival in history (Edge), and also eliminated Jeff meaning that not only did it take out two competitors, elevating Matt's individual chances, but it also meant he didn't have to *fight* his brother.

Later in the match King Booker was inches away from winning, when Matt grabbed Sharmell (who had been pestering him). He knew that even though Booker was a bad guy, he *had* to choose his wife over the win.

Psychology pretty much comes down to "if this was legit, what would I do? What would I gain from doing this move or that move?"

While I disagree with Ampulator's thinking on a lot of this, I agree that the combination of Orton, Cena and Triple H is plain awful. Remember their Triple Threat match on PPV last year? Cena stopped Triple H from doing a Pedigree through the Announce Table - to follow it up by putting Orton in the STF on the table... What does that achieve? He can't win on the outside, and the Pedigree would have hurt both H & Orton more than what he did. And he could have done the STF after the Pedigree.

Later in the match, Triple H has Orton in a Sharpshooter. Instead of breaking it, Cena puts the other half of Orton in a Crossface. To what end? There's no way he could win by doing it, and if anything increases Triple H's chances.

[Gabbo]

I agree Cena, Batista and Orton have awful psychology. Cena's is the worst I've seen in a top top guy. The heart is there and he does entertain the kids, but his matches make no sense and are just ridiculously lazy in terms of selling. Hogan flittered between selling and not bothering but he had a supernatural 'Hulking up' that gave it some plausibility. Cena is just a normal guy, the underdog, just one guy who gives it his all for the fans.

Triple is better, but just doesn't have chemistry with any of the new top guys. Partly due to the fact his matches are now so lazy they are just a collection of spots, practised and re-practised for the last ten years. There's nothing new about him or his ringwork and it annoys me. He hasn't had a really good match in about 6 years so that's something to do with it.

I actually thought Batista did gel with Cena and Undertaker though. Something clicked when he got in the ring with them. The matches were never great between Cena and Batista but there was a spark there.

Orton seems to have his character down to a tee and the psychology, even down to the slightest things like facial twitches is superb but his ringwork is really lacking. It's often covered up due to his 'cool' persona and awesome finishing move, but in general he's so dull in the ring.

Hogan was the guy in terms of psychology, but wrestling was a simpler time. He wrestled for kids, by the end of the 80's he was hated in dirtsheets and wrestling communities. WON even made him Most Over-Rated wrestler of the year at the height of his fame in the '85 and '86. Much like Cena was in 2007.

Undertaker, Michaels, Punk, Angle, Mysterio, Jericho and Foley have great psychology too. I feel Lesnar was on his way there, maybe due to working with Angle so much.

[Hive]

Am I the only one who is high on Orton both inside and outside of the ring...?

[Comradebot]

Am I the only one who is high on Orton both inside and outside of the ring...?

Probably.

[ampulator]

Matt Hardy has fantastic psychology. For a prime example of this, check out the first 8man MitB match. Multi-Man Ladder matches are often just spotfests (the opposite of a good psychological match), but Matt really shone through here. He convinced his brother Jeff to do the super high-risk dive that broke the ladder outside. This eliminated his most hated rival in history (Edge), and also eliminated Jeff meaning that not only did it take out two competitors, elevating Matt's individual chances, but it also meant he didn't have to *fight* his brother.

Later in the match King Booker was inches away from winning, when Matt grabbed Sharmell (who had been pestering him). He knew that even though Booker was a bad guy, he *had* to choose his wife over the win.


Actually, not all of that I consider psychology. For all we know, what Matt Hardy "did" could have been just been scripted or pre-planned between the WWE, Booker T, Matt Hardy, Jeff Hardy, and/or Edge. That's just simply good scripting. Good Psychology? Not really.


Psychology pretty much comes down to "if this was legit, what would I do? What would I gain from doing this move or that move?"


I wouldn't say this is wrong, but Psychology is this, but also more. Some guys have been able to do what I call, again, a series of non-conflicting moves, and while not technically wrong, it just looks very, very awkward and unnatural. Ted Dibiase Jr. and Drew McIntyre suffer from this.

Psychology at its most simple level is having the match make sense. It's about having a good flow, and telling a good story. Bret Hart had fantastic psychology - even against similar opponents, he would change his "strategy" so to speak. He did have his combo finish, but it wasn't the be-all end-all of his ring work. Cena on the other hand went for a long, long time just taking a beating then hitting his 5 Moves of Doom. Hogan has been the same for a long time, too.

While I disagree with Ampulator's thinking on a lot of this, I agree that the combination of Orton, Cena and Triple H is plain awful. Remember their Triple Threat match on PPV last year? Cena stopped Triple H from doing a Pedigree through the Announce Table - to follow it up by putting Orton in the STF on the table... What does that achieve? He can't win on the outside, and the Pedigree would have hurt both H & Orton more than what he did. And he could have done the STF after the Pedigree.

Later in the match, Triple H has Orton in a Sharpshooter. Instead of breaking it, Cena puts the other half of Orton in a Crossface. To what end? There's no way he could win by doing it, and if anything increases Triple H's chances.


Triple H is not so much lazy... as he is limited. He only LOOKS lazy. He's never been a good brawler or a technician. He tries, but he's always been, at best, solid at those areas. It's really hard to had to have Bret Hart's or Ric Flair's versatility. But it's really hard to cover up for a guy like John Cena's later ringwork. To be fair, most of his Cena's later matches in his career were just god-awful against even guys like Shawn Michaels and Kurt Angle. I think even they knew it, because it ended up turning Angle face. His stuff with Edge or Jericho is just plain boring.

That, or John Cena has bad chemistry with not only Triple H, but also Randy Orton, Kurt Angle, and Shawn Michaels. That's quite few guys to have chemistry with. Edge and Jericho, it always feel like they work next to him rather than with him.

As for Triple H, he has never been that versatile... and I'm a fan of his ringwork. What he brings to do the table is solid fundamentals and consistency with good but not great psychology. That's why I liked his matches against Mick Foley, the Rock, and Steve Austin.

[RingofHonorGuard]

I've been watching a few WWE DVDs this week. I bought the Elimination Chamber DVD at Best Buy, and they had a buy one, get one free going. So I grabbed World's Greatest Managers.

Two things:

1) WWE dropped the ball on a second serious wave of Bill Goldberg sweeping the nation. In the elimination chamber match that Triple H won by beating Goldberg with the sledgehammer.... Big mistake in booking there. Was it because they didn't expect him to be -that- over, or the "non-home grown, no real push" effect? Regardless... Who knows what would have happened if Goldberg got the strap during that match... I will say this though, watch the match and tell me that spinebuster he hits on Randy Orton isn't the most impactful move you've ever seen. Not a Goldberg fan, but he had me hooked during that Chamber match, for sure.

2) WWE needs more managers. They've got a perfect opportunity here with DiBiase Jr. and Maryse. They should have Maryse get more involved. I think that's part of what's left wrestling so stagnant, not just lack of real competition. There's plenty of fleshing in certain angles and interviews, but it just seems like once the action hits the ring there's no depth. Realistically we're -never- going to have late 80's, early 90's WWF wrestling again, but how I wish. We need a Bobby Heenan in this era that can make us give a damn about the heels that are going against Hulk Cena.

Also...

As for Triple H, he has never been that versatile... and I'm a fan of his ringwork. What he brings to do the table is solid fundamentals and consistency with good but not great psychology.

Are you kidding me? Go back and watch some of his WCW and early WWF matches. He has the total package. The thing is, during the Attitude Era the style of pro wrestling changed in the mainstream. Triple H adopted a much more brawl-oriented style, and it got him more over than any fluid wristlocks and flashy transitions. H's can do it all in the ring, aside from the aerial artistry. Injuries and time have obviously taken their toll as well, which is why he isn't as quick these days.

[Self]

Am I the only one who is high on Orton both inside and outside of the ring...?

I like Randy Orton. I don't see much of him because RAW is a scheduling nightmare for me, but during the MitB match he was the guy my eye was drawn to the most. I love his mannerisms. He just sorta walked everywhere. He stood out from everyone else. I dug it. I try not to get involved with 'who is a good wrestler' or 'who has good psychology' debates, because so much of it is subjective and down to taste. I like watching Randy Orton wrestle, more so now that he's a babyface because his chinlocks (while valid heat spots) were a tad repetitive.

[ampulator]

Are you kidding me? Go back and watch some of his WCW and early WWF matches. He has the total package. The thing is, during the Attitude Era the style of pro wrestling changed in the mainstream. Triple H adopted a much more brawl-oriented style, and it got him more over than any fluid wristlocks and flashy transitions. H's can do it all in the ring, aside from the aerial artistry. Injuries and time have obviously taken their toll as well, which is why he isn't as quick these days.
I have. And, I still stick by it. He's decent at those, but he's never been good or great at technical wrestling.

[crownsy]

Probably.

Nope, I am as well.

IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.

Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.

I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.

[Jaysin]

1) WWE dropped the ball on a second serious wave of Bill Goldberg sweeping the nation. In the elimination chamber match that Triple H won by beating Goldberg with the sledgehammer.... Big mistake in booking there. Was it because they didn't expect him to be -that- over, or the "non-home grown, no real push" effect? Regardless... Who knows what would have happened if Goldberg got the strap during that match... I will say this though, watch the match and tell me that spinebuster he hits on Randy Orton isn't the most impactful move you've ever seen. Not a Goldberg fan, but he had me hooked during that Chamber match, for sure.

My friend and I watched that match a few months back and I knew the outcome of the match and STILL got mad at the finish. I think it may have been the Wrestlecrap guys, but someone said that finish was basically the last nail in WCW's coffin.

I mean, I love Goldust, but the night Goldberg debuts they have him doing a comedy sketch with Goldust? It was hilarious, but that took away from his bad ass, no nonsense human wrecking ball persona. I dunno, I think as far as dropped balls are concerned, WWE had dropped the ball big time with Goldberg and DDP. Might just be me though.

[lazorbeak]

I'm just going to ignore the off-topic "this is what I think TEW stats should be" argument.

I like Randy Orton. I don't see much of him because RAW is a scheduling nightmare for me, but during the MitB match he was the guy my eye was drawn to the most. I love his mannerisms. He just sorta walked everywhere. He stood out from everyone else. I dug it. I try not to get involved with 'who is a good wrestler' or 'who has good psychology' debates, because so much of it is subjective and down to taste. I like watching Randy Orton wrestle, more so now that he's a babyface because his chinlocks (while valid heat spots) were a tad repetitive.

See this is good analysis because you're not coming into it with the preconceived notions that somebody that watches every week and you're coming away with why Orton is suddenly a top babyface without much effort. He has a great look, his mannerisms and facial expressions are some of the best in the sport, and the crowd digs it. I've seen smark fans, even smark fans whose opinions I generally respect struggle to understand why everybody suddenly likes Orton, but those fans are letting their biases towards the work he did 2, 3, or 7 years ago influence them.

One of the most valuable assets as a wrestling viewer is to be able to come into a given show fresh, without a lot of "oh, so and so SUCKS" opinions, and just measure whether you're entertained.

[Jaysin]

One of the most valuable assets as a wrestling viewer is to be able to come into a given show fresh, without a lot of "oh, so and so SUCKS" opinions, and just measure whether you're entertained.

That's why I stopped watching WWE really. It stopped being entertaining to me a long time ago. The guys in the top spots did nothing for me. Even one of my favorites, Chris Jericho got increasingly stale. I used to be a huge Orton fan back when he first split up with Evolution and I liked him up until his feud with Cena. After awhile, he just started to bore me. He no longer entertained me. His promos were all in the same monotoned robotic voice that showed no personality. Then when he started with that "disease" nonsense? Ugh give me a break. That was just dumb.

His new psycho character isn't ground breaking by any means, but at least he's showing more personality now. Money in the Bank was the first time I've really watched in a long time. I still didn't want him to win, but I wasn't nearly as bored watching him as I used to be. I even watched Raw the next night. I don't want to hate him or the WWE for that matter, I just want to be entertained and for a long time, they just stopped entertaining me. I'm going to give Smackdown a chance tonight and hopefully it won't be too bad. I'm giving it an honest effort to get back into the company.

Though, I did forget how completely awful WWE's divas are in the ring.

[Comradebot]

Nope, I am as well.

IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.

Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.

I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.

In all fairness, I've always thought Randy sucked.

His promos bore me to tears, and in the ring he's passable, but rarely exciting.

[Self]

I liked watching him do spots with John Morrison in MitB. They've been in the same promotion for years, but it looked completely foreign to see them in the same place, same time, doing moves together. I had the same feeling with JoMo & Triple H a couple of Rumbles ago. Seeing Orton or Trips sell the Flying Chuck is oddness.

[Hive]

I dug it. I try not to get involved with 'who is a good wrestler' or 'who has good psychology' debates, because so much of it is subjective and down to taste.

This is true. I'm not saying that Orton has great wrestling skills or anything (though I personally don't see the huge fuss about his supposed lack of skills, but nevermind that), I'm just saying that I'm always entertained by him. I've actually liked him ever since I first saw him (which was back when he just turned babyface for the first time and feuded with Evolution), and I think he has constantly gotten better ever since. Especially during the last year or so.

Granted, I don't watch a lot of wrestling these days - I just catch a bit here and there.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I used to hate Randy Orton with a passion. 04 face Orton totally turned me off(the stuttering, ****y grin, sex-symbol hype) and I disliked him all the way up until 2007. Then the punts to the head started... something started there and I could see it in the corner of my eye. The gimmick evolved and I grew into liking him again. Once his mannerisms became akin to a cold calculating killer in the ring, I thought he'd find his stride and would replace Triple H as that dominating #1 heel who squashes everyone to piss off the fans. But instead the Legacy stable bull**** started, making Orton look like a piss poor coward, and it didn't help I'm no fan of Cody and DiBiase.

As of now I enjoy his face-tweenerish run, and I hope they build expand on it. Make him a bigger face than he is, have him get a run with the title as a face and he could maybe serve as proponent for a Cena heel turn down the line. Both sell crazy merchandise as it is, and would whatever their disposition becomes.

[Candyman]

Nope, I am as well.

IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.

Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.

I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.

If it helps, I've always said that about Orton. The funniest thing to me was always, when Orton was a heel, the people that would complain about how boring Cena is because he only has a few moves and whatever, and then turn around and wet themselves over Orton...it's like, hello, even with Cena's 5 moves he has twice as many as Orton. At least Cena is entertaining on the mic...oh yeah, and he's not a jackass. As far as I'm concerned, Orton is a real world Big Smack Scott. Even if he has grown up lately like some say(which could be temporary, or stuff's just not getting out), he's still incredibly boring to me. It's painful to watch him try to cut a promo and I don't think he adds much in the ring.

[Genadi]

Cena is good because he trains and works as hard as he can.

Orton is good because he's naturally gifted.

That's the difference between the two and where alot of the hate for both comes from imo.

[BurningHamster]

Nope, I am as well.

IT's just that Orton has become the IWC's new hate target to offset the Y2J worship.

Somehow Cena's moved from hate target to "he sucks, but whatever" around the net while Orton has become the new "omfg what an awful worker" target.

I suspect it's because Randy's a face now.


Really? That's weird as I always thought Orton sucked until about six months ago when he finally got it all together. Man wrestling fans are a fickle bunch.

I find it weird that Y2J is still being said long after anyone really cares to remember what Y2K was all about.

[Candyman]

I just had a horrifying thought. You look at Raw's team, and they have all been attacked by the Nexus...all except Khali. The only thing that happened between Khali and Nexus was that weird promo where his manager/translator/brother turned on him by saying Khali would run from Nexus and walking away, never to be seen again. So, here's my thought...is Ranjin Singh the leader of Nexus???

They've done dumber things...

[Teh_Showtime]

would you not recruit one of the largest guys in the world to be on your team?

[PeterHilton]

Don't dismiss out of hand just because you think I'm wrong. I'm not dismissing anything YOU are saying, so you shouldn't dismiss anything I am saying, either. I just disagree with your opinion, and some of your conclusions (and some of facts, or at least your usage).

No..that's fine....because what you're saying ...

In any, it's pretty darn obvious that Cena CAN be bigger. I once that too, but that doesn't seem to be ever the case, if you look what the WWE can do and has done. The WWE can't push crap... but they can push averages. Look, people thought that they could have never pushed Triple H. They did. People thought they couldn't push Batista. They did. Heck, people thought the Rock couldn't get over. Need I say more?


..doesn't make sense.

The idea that the WWE would go out of it's way to keep someone from being TOO popular, yet somehow have some kind of magical formula to get someone JUST POPULAR ENOUGH to be the biggest star in wrestling is patendledly dumb, unrealistic, and mind-blowingly smarkish.

Alo...the last comment implies "people" thought The Rock wouldn't get over, but somehow the E apllied some magic and BOOM he was the biggest star in wrestling.

It ignores the fact that A)people are often wrong and B) the Rock had immense talent to go with opportunity.

Do we have to list the dozens of guys like Chris Masters and Rob Conway and Billy Gunn who got the same type of exposure and push and fell on their faces.

I'm sorry..but I just reject completely the notion that the WWE doesn't want to have Austin and Rock level stars, that Cena is somehow being nerfed, or that the WWE would've been able to keep Rock or Austin from blowing up as they did, while somehow turning them into top level stars.

EDIT: i don't want to be insulting...I just reject that idea totally.

[The Final Countdown]

Do we have to list the dozens of guys like Chris Masters and Rob Conway and Billy Gunn who got the same type of exposure and push and fell on their faces.
When was Rob Conway ever given that kind of push? I'm not being smarky or sarcastic; I really don't remember him ever having any sort of sustained push as a singles guy. The closest was probably during his days as a Rick Rude knockoff, but I wouldn't classify that as anything close to the opportunity given to Masters or Gunn. But maybe my memory is foggy.

[Stennick]

I always thought Conway would have been a solid mid carder but never got the chance. He had the in ring skills (apparently) in OVW running with Dinsmore but he never got a chance to really show anything off.

I liked what little I saw of Conway kinda surprised he never surfaced anywhere.

[ampulator]

No..that's fine....because what you're saying ...



..doesn't make sense.

The idea that the WWE would go out of it's way to keep someone from being TOO popular, yet somehow have some kind of magical formula to get someone JUST POPULAR ENOUGH to be the biggest star in wrestling is patendledly dumb, unrealistic, and mind-blowingly smarkish.

Alo...the last comment implies "people" thought The Rock wouldn't get over, but somehow the E apllied some magic and BOOM he was the biggest star in wrestling.

It ignores the fact that A)people are often wrong and B) the Rock had immense talent to go with opportunity.

Do we have to list the dozens of guys like Chris Masters and Rob Conway and Billy Gunn who got the same type of exposure and push and fell on their faces.

I'm sorry..but I just reject completely the notion that the WWE doesn't want to have Austin and Rock level stars, that Cena is somehow being nerfed, or that the WWE would've been able to keep Rock or Austin from blowing up as they did, while somehow turning them into top level stars.

EDIT: i don't want to be insulting...I just reject that idea totally.
Although that's a fair counter-argument, consider this... if they DIDN'T hold Cena back, the only other logical conclusion is they screwed up.

Now, I only came to previous conclusion reluctantly. I stand by it now, but I didn't fully want to believe it. But the other is... they screwed up, especially when they didn't need to.

I rather believe they are actually controlling, rather than being incompetent, because that would mean some people claming that WWE is being run by morons is actually correct. I DO NOT want to believe that.

I always thought Conway would have been a solid mid carder but never got the chance. He had the in ring skills (apparently) in OVW running with Dinsmore but he never got a chance to really show anything off.

I liked what little I saw of Conway kinda surprised he never surfaced anywhere.

The reason is, and this neither Conway's, nor Jim Cornette's, fault, is he was trained old-school.

Conway was trained to be a solid worker, and he was, but the WWE style was never a fit for him. Unfortunately, there is NWA-style promotions anymore, so he basically lucked out.

[crownsy]

Although that's a fair counter-argument, consider this... if they DIDN'T hold Cena back, the only other logical conclusion is they screwed up.

Now, I only came to previous conclusion reluctantly. I stand by it now, but I didn't fully want to believe it. But the other is... they screwed up, especially when they didn't need to.

I rather believe they are actually controlling, rather than being incompetent, because that would mean some people claming that WWE is being run by morons is actually correct. I DO NOT want to believe that.



The reason is, and this neither Conway's, nor Jim Cornette's, fault, is he was trained old-school.

Conway was trained to be a solid worker, and he was, but the WWE style was never a fit for him. Unfortunately, there is NWA-style promotions anymore, so he basically lucked out.

Isn't the other conclusion that John Cena, while a very nice draw, is not on the level of SCSA and the Rock?

Not being a dink, i just don't see how the fact that John Cena is not carrying the product the way those guys did is either:

A: because they deliberately hold him back

or

B: because they screwed up

Isn't C in play, namely that Cena just plain isn't as much of a draw as those two? The Rock and Austin were once every 20 year talents IMO, up there with HBK, Hogan and Flair. I don't believe anyone that's come along since can match them.

John Cena's a solid Lead babyface, but he isn't those guys, not in ring work and CERTAINLY not in charisma and star factor.

[ampulator]

Isn't the other conclusion that John Cena, while a very nice draw, is not on the level of SCSA and the Rock?

Not being a dink, i just don't see how the fact that John Cena is not carrying the product the way those guys did is either:

A: because they deliberately hold him back

or

B: because they screwed up

Isn't C in play, namely that Cena just plain isn't as much of a draw as those two? The Rock and Austin were once every 20 year talents IMO, up there with HBK, Hogan and Flair. I don't believe anyone that's come along since can match them.

John Cena's a solid Lead babyface, but he isn't those guys, not in ring work and CERTAINLY not in charisma and star factor.
That's a possibility, but I can't see that to be true. If Peter Hilton is right... that WWE isn't holding him back, then he should be sprouting up if they aren't screwing

The problem is, if the blame is to laid on him, then the booking and writing is his fault... which it isn't. He has no control over booking or writing. Almost everyone prefers his pre-clean-cut-babyface character.

He doesn't have to bhe Rock/Stone Cold/Flair/Hogan level, but he can be just RIGHT under it. But he isn't. Not even close.

Do you see anyone complain when he was booked or written correctly? There are grumbles here and there, but people have been complaining hard as they used to be... the only difference is there is less people complaining because some of those people simply stopped watching.

I never thought Mick Foley had all that star power. He had charisma and mic work? Yes. HIs ringwork? it depends. In his later years, especially in the WWE, it went WAY down. But the ooked him well and correctly at the height of his WWF career.

[crownsy]

He doesn't have to bhe Rock/Stone Cold/Flair/Hogan level, but he can be just RIGHT under it. But he isn't. Not even close.



I guess that's where we part ways, to me he's not even close on his best day, and thats on him not some conspiracy or screw up to keep him less popular than the stars of old.

His ringwork isn't as good, his mic work isn't even close, he's not as charismatic nor as dynamic. To put it simply, people outside those who watch wrestling don't give a damn. That's what the other stars mentioned had, the ability to get at the person who might not watch wrestling without them to tune in.

He is what he is, a very solid M/E, but if he had made his debut in the late 90's, he would have been a 4th rate M/E at best, behind guys like Rock, Austin, Brock, Eddie, Angle in his prime ect ect.

He is simply not at that level, but unfortunately for the industry, right now he's the Best guy WWE has to push to move merch alongside Orton.

Neither of those guys is dynamic enough to capture the casual fan, they simply aren't as talented.

That's not to say they aren't good wrestlers, but i feel it does far more to explain why Cena and the Current "young" M/E crew isn't as over. They aren't as interesting, period.

That's not to say they aren't great workers, just that they aren't going to be able to recapture what Rock and SCSA and others had, no matter how they are booked. They don't have the talent.

That's my opinion, anyway.

[BurningHamster]

When was Rob Conway ever given that kind of push? I'm not being smarky or sarcastic; I really don't remember him ever having any sort of sustained push as a singles guy. The closest was probably during his days as a Rick Rude knockoff, but I wouldn't classify that as anything close to the opportunity given to Masters or Gunn. But maybe my memory is foggy.

Yeah, plus wasn't Rob Conway pretty much the poster boy for being kept in OVW long beyond he should have been due to not being a fit for the WWE style while musclehead lugnuts were brought into the main roster ahead of him?

[PeterHilton]

When was Rob Conway ever given that kind of push? I'm not being smarky or sarcastic; I really don't remember him ever having any sort of sustained push as a singles guy. The closest was probably during his days as a Rick Rude knockoff, but I wouldn't classify that as anything close to the opportunity given to Masters or Gunn. But maybe my memory is foggy.

He was given a noticeable amount of rn and fell flat on his face. he probably wasn't expected to be a superstar, but at least a midlevel heel and he didn't even acomplish that.

Although that's a fair counter-argument, consider this... if they DIDN'T hold Cena back, the only other logical conclusion is they screwed up.

I rather believe they are actually controlling, rather than being incompetent, because that would mean some people claming that WWE is being run by morons is actually correct. I DO NOT want to believe that.

No, it isn't. that isn't the only option. And again..your idea that the WWE has THAT MUCH CONTROL over the audience begs the question: if they can predict to such a degree how to make a star, why don't they just make more stars?

(oh that's right beause they'll leave) :rolleyes:

Isn't the other conclusion that John Cena, while a very nice draw, is not on the level of SCSA and the Rock?


This. Cena isn't as talented.

He doesn't have to bhe Rock/Stone Cold/Flair/Hogan level, but he can be just RIGHT under it. But he isn't. Not even close.

He's the biggest star in the industry and one of the top 5 or 10 draws of all time.

Your expectations are too high and you are mistaking YOUR personal bias for what is popular opinion. YOU don't like the way he's been booked, but quite a few people do

John Cena is the biggest star in wrestling ans had been for years. Sure, he's not as popular as Rock or SCSA are -because he's not as talented or charismatic, not because of some paranoid scheme by the WWE - but he's a bigger star than 99.9999999% of anyone who's ever laced up a pair of boots.

[ampulator]

He was given a noticeable amount of rn and fell flat on his face. he probably wasn't expected to be a superstar, but at least a midlevel heel and he didn't even acomplish that.



No, it isn't. that isn't the only option. And again..your idea that the WWE has THAT MUCH CONTROL over the audience begs the question: if they can predict to such a degree how to make a star, why don't they just make more stars?

(oh that's right beause they'll leave) :rolleyes:



This. Cena isn't as talented.



He's the biggest star in the industry and one of the top 5 or 10 draws of all time.

Your expectations are too high and you are mistaking YOUR personal bias for what is popular opinion. YOU don't like the way he's been booked, but quite a few people do

John Cena is the biggest star in wrestling ans had been for years. Sure, he's not as popular as Rock or SCSA are -because he's not as talented or charismatic, not because of some paranoid scheme by the WWE - but he's a bigger star than 99.9999999% of anyone who's ever laced up a pair of boots.
The thing is, though, he DID (not so sure about now) had what it take it take to reach the next level. He was so close before they gave him this gimmick that makes him seem wooden and aritificial. He was THIS close, until they changed his gimmick and character. And then it went downhill from there.

And honestly, I don't think Cena, skill-wise, is really that far off from the Rock and Stone Cold. Charisma? Maybe. But with the exceptoin of psychology, I can't see how his in-ring skills is that much less. His main difference is his gimmick doesn't fit him too well, while the Rock and Stone Cold had a great gimmick. Now, who has control over that? WWE.

And two, I know that my position isn't that popular opinion. But it doesn't really matter, does it? I'm not trying to. It's about how they get more ouf of him. It's literally saying "this is his limit. He's never going to be more". And that's why I'm saying WWE booking is either too stringent or too incompetent, because a guy like Paul Heyman know when ne needed to carefully guid someone and went to take risks to let certain workers do what they needed.

I would love to believe Cena is not talented enough. But if that's the case, then I wouldn't him as the top guy, either. I would like to accept this conclusion, but that would mean WWE is pushing people that doens't meet the minimum in terms of quality. People complain about Hogan, but, when the big payoff match came, he delivered. Either Cena can't, or he's not being allowed to. Which one would rather have me believe? Now, are matches the most important thing in WWE? No. But you must have, the very least, have good pay-off matches. This is the end of storyline.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Cena does have good payoff matches. HBK, Umaga, Trips, Edge, Angle etc.

[ampulator]

Umaga, I give. The rest? Not really, especially not with Angle... the problem it's not their matches were bad. The problem, was Kurt couldn't work with or protect Cena. Kurt always went full-blast in matches, and he kept making Cena looking a tool or fool. Kurt looked dominant in a match, and then, somehow Cena does the AA had gets the win. It didn't really get Cena over, and it got fans livid at how the match went. "Cena overcomes the odds once again" narrative started here.

That said, I don't blame Cena for this. It was either Kurt or WWE's idea for Kurt to do what he did.

And, I have to concede Cena had ONE good match with HBK. But that's about it.

[Game-Face]

Can someone please tell me why the hell matt striker keeps calling Big show "The Giant"?? it's not 98 and it's not wcw, so what the hell!

[MattitudeV2]

Can someone please tell me why the hell matt striker keeps calling Big show "The Giant"?? it's not 98 and it's not wcw, so what the hell!

Who knows I think he is snorting some bad coke? :rolleyes:

[Jaysin]

Can someone please tell me why the hell matt striker keeps calling Big show "The Giant"?? it's not 98 and it's not wcw, so what the hell!

Striker does no wrong :p

[MasterJ]

Can someone please tell me why the hell matt striker keeps calling Big show "The Giant"?? it's not 98 and it's not wcw, so what the hell!

hes not the only one Lawlar was at MITB

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Umaga, I give. The rest? Not really, especially not with Angle... the problem it's not their matches were bad. The problem, was Kurt couldn't work with or protect Cena. Kurt always went full-blast in matches, and he kept making Cena looking a tool or fool. Kurt looked dominant in a match, and then, somehow Cena does the AA had gets the win. It didn't really get Cena over, and it got fans livid at how the match went. "Cena overcomes the odds once again" narrative started here.

That said, I don't blame Cena for this. It was either Kurt or WWE's idea for Kurt to do what he did.

And, I have to concede Cena had ONE good match with HBK. But that's about it.

I take it you didn't see his matches with Edge then? He had 2 or 3 very good matches with him in '07 I think. Didn't his match with HBK win PWI match of the year?

[ampulator]

I've seen his matches against Edge. I don't think they were particularly good. Nor bad. On par with Edge's lesser performances.

And I did say Cena had ONE good match with HBK. But if I recall correctly, this wasn't AFTER his terrible match with HBK. It was more like "we sorry we did this kind of match before, we are going to make it up" match.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Never thought he had any good matches with Angle. The only good match I recall Cena/Edge having was at Unforgiven and they're both decent at carrying over with weapons. Triple H.. most of the time, the crowd made the match worth if anything.

[ampulator]

I don't necessarily think it was bad chemistry with Angle. Angle, always, but especially, at that time period, liked to go FULL ALL OUT in his matches. Most people couldn't keep up with him.

[Jaysin]

Wow, Heath Slater does Dolph Ziggler's "Zig Zag" move for a finisher...

[Teh_Showtime]

I usually don't get to see orton segments on Raw, but dude is crazy over in his Steve Austin role

he totally stole a title from miz

[shawn michaels 82]

I take it you didn't see his matches with Edge then? He had 2 or 3 very good matches with him in '07 I think. Didn't his match with HBK win PWI match of the year?

Yeah. But HBK could get a match of the year performance out of any one of us or out of a statue if necessary. :D He's going for a consecutive 7 year run with the match of the year award. That's a unique achievement.

[Jaysin]

The main event bored me to tears last night. I did like the post match angle, but the actual match was so blah that I couldn't keep my eyes open.

This week's Raw wasn't as good as last week's. It wasn't awful, but it wasn't good either.

[Dragonmack]

Wasn't impressed with how they buried both Mark Henry and the New Hart Foundation with their effort to keep the Nexus looking strong. They had Henry go down to one freaking running clothesline! And the Harts were competing for or are the Unified tag champions.

I get that they want the Nexus to look strong, but it would have made more overall sense to either have a couple of them get eliminated so you aren't burying people you are supposedly pushing or keeping strong in addition to the job crew, or just have the Nexus opponents all be opening jobbers.

The funny thing is , when this storyline is finally over, half those Nexus guys, especially the ones who don't look like linebackers, are gonna end up fading away or taking over those jobber roles.

[Self]

They're in one of the main events of Summerslam. You gotta make them look strong. In surprised WWE went as far as they did though. I'd have kept the clean sweep, but I'd have had FAR more cheating from the Nexus dudes. Show the ref having trouble keeping tabs on all 7 of them, well-oiled machine as they are. Plus I probably would have swapped out the Harts for Santino & Koslov.

You can't push everybody. This time it's Nexus, which is a fine choice. Fresh meat.

[Candyman]

Yeah. But HBK could get a match of the year performance out of any one of us or out of a statue if necessary. :D He's going for a consecutive 7 year run with the match of the year award. That's a unique achievement.

Heck, he could probably get a Match of the Year out of Vince McMahon. Wait, he actually did that.

When you really think about it, it's kind of incredible. There's been 19 calender years since the Rockers broke up and HBK has been a singles competitor. He missed 3 of those and almost all of 2 others due to his back injury, and he missed a good portion of another year when he "lost his smile." Aside from this year (since MOTY hasn't been determined yet), that leaves 12 years where he wrestled the whole year - he won MOTY in 10 of them. And one of the years he didn't was his first year after the Rockers and he was still establishing himself. Basically, he's 10-for-11 in Match of the Year wins. The year he didn't win it? His first full year after his back injury, when he fought Chris Jericho at Wrestlemania. That would be MOTY in a LOT of years. (it lost to the Angle-Lesnar Iron Man match)

They're in one of the main events of Summerslam. You gotta make them look strong. In surprised WWE went as far as they did though. I'd have kept the clean sweep, but I'd have had FAR more cheating from the Nexus dudes. Show the ref having trouble keeping tabs on all 7 of them, well-oiled machine as they are. Plus I probably would have swapped out the Harts for Santino & Koslov.

You can't push everybody. This time it's Nexus, which is a fine choice. Fresh meat.

I had no problem with the way that match went down...in fact, it's exactly what I was expecting and hoping for. That, combined with all the tension on Team Cenicho, really makes you think Nexus is going to win. That's the idea, anyway. I wouldn't have minded if there was more cheating and teamwork from Nexus, but I think the clean sweep was absolutely vital. And you had to have some legitimate names to make it impressive. I think it helps Nexus a lot more than it hurts Henry, Bourne, and the Harts.

[Teh_Showtime]

Morrison needs to shave, seriously

the shadow doesn't work for him imo

[The Final Countdown]

With this "Match of the Year" talk--match of the year according to who? One of the magazines, like PWI or something?

[Teh_Showtime]

Holy crap SD looks to have an awesome ending Friday night
Swagger and Rey in a no dq match, battle outside near water and Kane chokeslams Rey into the water.

All of this after Kane said taker said 2 words which was Rey mysterious (attacked him)

I <3 SD

[Johnny Fenoli]

Morrison needs to shave, seriously

the shadow doesn't work for him imo

But, that's his heel turn beard....

[Teh_Showtime]

I'm dying for a Orton/Morrison feud if Morrison ever turns

[Jaysin]

But, that's his heel turn beard....

He's gotta grow his chest hair out too

[Teh_Showtime]

Mustache

[RingofHonorGuard]

Wasn't impressed with how they buried both Mark Henry and the New Hart Foundation with their effort to keep the Nexus looking strong. They had Henry go down to one freaking running clothesline! And the Harts were competing for or are the Unified tag champions.

Wait, you were upset that Mark Henry got buried/lost? O_O Welcome to the minority, sir. I'd be perfectly happy if they handed Henry his walking papers, and we never had to see him again.

Would have been pretty lame for build-up if WWE's C-Team was able to put up a good fight against the Nexus, and would pretty solidly kill any hype for a WWE A-Team vs. Nexus match at Summerslam.

Mustache

I don't regularly watch NXT, but I viewed last night. Can anyone explain to me what the hell this "Mustache" thing is about?

[MichiganHero]

Wait, you were upset that Mark Henry got buried/lost? O_O Welcome to the minority, sir. I'd be perfectly happy if they handed Henry his walking papers, and we never had to see him again.

Would have been pretty lame for build-up if WWE's C-Team was able to put up a good fight against the Nexus, and would pretty solidly kill any hype for a WWE A-Team vs. Nexus match at Summerslam.



I don't regularly watch NXT, but I viewed last night. Can anyone explain to me what the hell this "Mustache" thing is about?

Yeah, what is up with the Mustache merchandise?

[nucleardonkey]

I didn't see it but it sounds like a reference to the talk the talk challenge earlier in the season where they were all given a topic and Eli Cottinwood's topic was mustache.

[Jaysin]

MUSTACHE! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64rje_22I5k)

[Teh_Showtime]

I really don't know either

but I think it's a morrison shirt

[Jaysin]

I really don't know either

but I think it's a morrison shirt

Click my linkage broski

[BurningHamster]

Haha that's just weird, I was wondering about that as I missed a few NXT's this season.

What a stupid topic to give someone.

[MasterJ]

Nevermind

[nucleardonkey]

Haha that's just weird, I was wondering about that as I missed a few NXT's this season.

What a stupid topic to give someone.

I don't what was stupider...the topic or his answer. But I am impressed with someone who can grow a mustache in under a minute.

[BurningHamster]

I don't what was stupider...the topic or his answer. But I am impressed with someone who can grow a mustache in under a minute.

I think the answer was far better than such a stupid topic deserved and wish they gave him another 5 minutes to really expand on the topic. If you are going to waste TV time making a guy talk nonsense, might as well make it an epic trainwreck rather than a minor one. I get the feeling he was going to mention Burt Reynolds or Tom Selleck pretty soon, or maybe go into the history of the mustache in wrestling. Rick Rude, Blackjack Mulligan, etc etc.

Just got around to seeing NXT this week. My boy Husky Harris getting a win over Kaval was good times indeed. I can't wait for the Husky Harris/Heath Slater tag team run. Book it!

[Teh_Showtime]

Click my linkage broski

Didn't notice it was a link

I want that 1 minute back

[MrCanada]

looks like WWE is restocking development. Obviously with the Nexus being all called up and I think a good handful of NXT2 will stick around (pretty much the 6 left)...

Recent signings (in most cases re-signings) are intersting:

Austin Creed - Former TNA star. Always saw a deal of potential in him if he can stay in-tune with the wellness policy.

Brent "Beef" Wellington - Probably the most talented guy to come out of OVW post-WWE so I have a good deal of faith.

Brian Cage (aka Kris Logan) - Rumor is he has resigned and is coming back in mid-late August. I never understood why he was released in the first place. Good size & look plus a decent ability with some potential.

Idol Stevens - I never like him.... but oh well.

Joe Anoa'i - Once the NFL and CFL didnt work out for him this was bound to happen. The younger brother of Rosey for those who dont know. Natural athlete so hopefully good things can come of this. He may need time to mature ala Umaga. I could easily see a brief stint, send to Japan or fire so he can go there, then bring him back.

Ryan O'Reilly - Surprised they brought him back after how he left the first time. Was a decent Paul Heyman-endorsed prospect back then. Wonder if he can still hold it up.


Hopefully they bring back Shawn Spears (screw that Gavin nonsense) and give him a true shot. Had someone like him been on NXT he would of dominated.

[Jaysin]

Just watched the WWE title match from Vengeance 2005. The crowd was equally behind Jericho, Cena, and Christian throughout the whole match. It was nuts. Too bad Christian didn't get the win back then though.

[Teh_Showtime]

Christian seems like he's playing the Beniot role nowdays

obviously over, but helping the growth of the younger guys insted of being a direct world title contender

[MichiganHero]

Does anyone else think that the Nexus will recruit Eli Cottonwood to the Summerslam squad and maybe boot out Cena's Black Clone or something. I mean Eli would counter-act Khali's height and uselessness.

[Jaysin]

I'd rather Black Cena stay and Eli never be seen on wrestling tv again

[The Shape]

Does anyone else think that the Nexus will recruit Eli Cottonwood to the Summerslam squad and maybe boot out Cena's Black Clone or something. I mean Eli would counter-act Khali's height and uselessness.

I hope we never see Eli again, however I have though that maybe down the road the crap ones from Nexus (Slater, Young mainly) will get replaced by a couple of season 2's better guys.

[MichiganHero]

I hope we never see Eli again, however I have though that maybe down the road the crap ones from Nexus (Slater, Young mainly) will get replaced by a couple of season 2's better guys.

Heath Slater is awesome. However Skip doesn't impress me. Also I want Alex and Michael in the Nexus. They are bad-ass.

[Jaysin]

Am I the only one that keeps waiting for Joe Hennig to drop the word "perfect"?

He's undefeated on the show so far. I hope he is undefeated throughout the entire thing. Then maybe talk about being perfect? I dunno. He does need a little bit more character, but I still think he's a step up from most of the NXT cast.

[Teh_Showtime]

It should come soon

Hennig music and everything

[Self]

Doing his father's gimmick, but worse. Not working out too well for Dibiase.

[MasterJ]

Am I the only one that keeps waiting for Joe Hennig to drop the word "perfect"?

He's undefeated on the show so far. I hope he is undefeated throughout the entire thing. Then maybe talk about being perfect? I dunno. He does need a little bit more character, but I still think he's a step up from most of the NXT cast.

Whatching NXT on Tuesday I was thinking that would be his topic but I was dissapointed:(

[Teh_Showtime]

Doing his father's gimmick, but worse. Not working out too well for Dibiase.

Could also be the worker and not the gimmick

[Jaysin]

Strange question, but did Cryme Tyme and Deuce & Domino get to feud? I've been watching a ton of OVW stuff of Deuce & Domino and I love them even more now than I did before. So much so that I've been going around going "OOOHH!!"

Then again, that feud seems like it's too good for WWE when they can't even keep a real tag division together.

[Hive]

Joe Hennig needs to go by the name 'Joe Hennig'. I really don't get what's up with WWE and lots of stupid, stupid names these days. Especially not when we're dealing with a third generation wrestler who's real name has a lot of name value.

[MasterJ]

Could also be the worker and not the gimmick

Which is true with Jr. IMO if wasn't as boring and had half the charisma as his dad he could pull it off Joe would do good with the Perfect gimmick

[Tha Black Phenom]

Strange question, but did Cryme Tyme and Deuce & Domino get to feud? I've been watching a ton of OVW stuff of Deuce & Domino and I love them even more now than I did before. So much so that I've been going around going "OOOHH!!"

Then again, that feud seems like it's too good for WWE when they can't even keep a real tag division together.

No, but the only thing they did was having Cryme Tyme steal D&D's car and roll it with divas backstage after D&D beat them. Was a nice touch and it made Cryme Tyme relevant again.