The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Hyde Hill]

WTF! Nothing to do with TNA or WWE. It's wrestling!!! Everyone is taller, heavier etc etc. Then they actually are.

[Melanieshaman]

This is an asinine statement, doesn't reflect at all how things happened or how Cena got over, and pretty much guarantees that I'll dismiss any future posts form you as the typical internet nerd bullcrap.

So thanks for being so efficient. :)


That's fine, I don't need anyone's approval, believe especially not on the interwebs. I was watching when cena debuted and while he has always been decent on the mic he's never had skills. I think my biggest mistake was expecting everyone to be a super talent in ring... everyone to be dean malenko, or some such person. I guess if you constantly push someone and surround him with super stars during his early career (Orton) then he will eventually get over. All I was trying to say is, I just don't see anyone at the moment in wwe that gives me that "ooh, i hate the guy" feeling. Maybe my opinion of a heel is misplaced these days. One or two people active today that do do that for me are; Bischoff, and Styles. Before you go off saying I am a TNA mark, i'm not, i just like more of their younger guys (originals), not all the imports. Christopher Daniels is one of my all time favs, and I hate what they did with him. As far as I know he's gone for good, but again, I don't have the time to keep up with all the goings on.

[Melanieshaman]

Took that long for you to figure it out. I posted once, was hoping to get an answer to any of my questions... Figured that would give me an idea where the shaman is coming from.



I tried to answer questions and clarify, if i missed you post I apologize. SHEESH

[Stennick]

That's fine, I don't need anyone's approval, believe especially not on the interwebs. I was watching when cena debuted and while he has always been decent on the mic he's never had skills. I think my biggest mistake was expecting everyone to be a super talent in ring... everyone to be dean malenko, or some such person. I guess if you constantly push someone and surround him with super stars during his early career (Orton) then he will eventually get over. All I was trying to say is, I just don't see anyone at the moment in wwe that gives me that "ooh, i hate the guy" feeling. Maybe my opinion of a heel is misplaced these days. One or two people active today that do do that for me are; Bischoff, and Styles. Before you go off saying I am a TNA mark, i'm not, i just like more of their younger guys (originals), not all the imports. Christopher Daniels is one of my all time favs, and I hate what they did with him. As far as I know he's gone for good, but again, I don't have the time to keep up with all the goings on.

Cena vs. JBL I Quit match, Cena vs. Shawn Michaels 60 minute match on RAW, Cena vs. Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania, Cena vs. Batista (is regarded as one of if not the best match at Mania outside the main event), Cena vs. Umaga from the Royal Rumble was raved about.

I know its the in thing to hate on Cena because he doesn't do "MOVEZ" but seriously he' had some seriously memorable matches over the last five years he's been champion. People bring up John Cena's lack of moves as a reason they don't like him since they can't deny the guy gets the crowd going better than anybody. Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Steve Austin (the guy has a broken neck and two shot knees and invented the punch kick WWE main event style), Undertaker circa 2002 American Badass, The Rock. There is a TON of guys who have had a limited offense and utilized it just as well as Cena. The difference is people like to rebel and if 12 year old kids are cheering Cena well then they gotta cheer somebody else.

Cena got himself over and he did it in a way similar to Austin. The guy was a heel on Smackdown cutting promos mentioning a dead John Ritter and the crowd turned him into a face. Now he's not the same guy now but he turned himself into a superstar by losing every "big" match that came his way. Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, Brock Lesnar, the guy was a main event punching bag for nearly a year before turning face.

The only arguments for Cena not being a good wrestler and therefore not right for his push is badly misplaced. This is not ROH and if you want to see "MOVEZ" then go there, otherwise understand that "skill" is a relative term that can be bended to fit anyone's agenda.

[Melanieshaman]

Cena vs. JBL I Quit match, Cena vs. Shawn Michaels 60 minute match on RAW, Cena vs. Shawn Michaels at Wrestlemania, Cena vs. Batista (is regarded as one of if not the best match at Mania outside the main event), Cena vs. Umaga from the Royal Rumble was raved about.

I know its the in thing to hate on Cena because he doesn't do "MOVEZ" but seriously he' had some seriously memorable matches over the last five years he's been champion. People bring up John Cena's lack of moves as a reason they don't like him since they can't deny the guy gets the crowd going better than anybody. Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Steve Austin (the guy has a broken neck and two shot knees and invented the punch kick WWE main event style), Undertaker circa 2002 American Badass, The Rock. There is a TON of guys who have had a limited offense and utilized it just as well as Cena. The difference is people like to rebel and if 12 year old kids are cheering Cena well then they gotta cheer somebody else.

Cena got himself over and he did it in a way similar to Austin. The guy was a heel on Smackdown cutting promos mentioning a dead John Ritter and the crowd turned him into a face. Now he's not the same guy now but he turned himself into a superstar by losing every "big" match that came his way. Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, Brock Lesnar, the guy was a main event punching bag for nearly a year before turning face.

The only arguments for Cena not being a good wrestler and therefore not right for his push is badly misplaced. This is not ROH and if you want to see "MOVEZ" then go there, otherwise understand that "skill" is a relative term that can be bended to fit anyone's agenda.


OK i got it, as i said i only watch on occasion and apparently i have missed very good match hes had (joking). I guess I am slightly out of line with cena, i never liked him but i can appreciate what he's done, and you're right. I guess maybe i should look into RoH more. Maybe it's just me, but i didnt like austin either...

[PeterHilton]

That's fine, I don't need anyone's approval, believe especially not on the interwebs. I was watching when cena debuted and while he has always been decent on the mic he's never had skills. I think my biggest mistake was expecting everyone to be a super talent in ring... everyone to be dean malenko, or some such person. I guess if you constantly push someone and surround him with super stars during his early career (Orton) then he will eventually get over. All I was trying to say is, I just don't see anyone at the moment in wwe that gives me that "ooh, i hate the guy" feeling. Maybe my opinion of a heel is misplaced these days. One or two people active today that do do that for me are; Bischoff, and Styles. Before you go off saying I am a TNA mark, i'm not, i just like more of their younger guys (originals), not all the imports. Christopher Daniels is one of my all time favs, and I hate what they did with him. As far as I know he's gone for good, but again, I don't have the time to keep up with all the goings on.

Cena was crazy over as a heel, playing the white rapper. If you don't watch the WWE, then sitting there and saying things like "Cena was never over the WWE just pushed him down people's throats" is both misinformed and factually incorrect.

And guess what? The vast majority of the WWE audience just aren't that worried about the inring stuff.

OK i got it, as i said i only watch on occasion and apparently i have missed very good match hes had (joking). I guess I am slightly out of line with cena, i never liked him but i can appreciate what he's done, and you're right. I guess maybe i should look into RoH more. Maybe it's just me, but i didnt like austin either...

It's just you.

[Melanieshaman]

Cena was crazy over as a heel, playing the white rapper. If you don't watch the WWE, then sitting there and saying things like "Cena was never over the WWE just pushed him down people's throats" is both misinformed and factually incorrect.



well, i'm older and i don't really remember him getting a ton of air time/pops as a heel... i sorta remember him in that tweener role. I did watch more back then btw. I know he earned a good portion of his popularity, but i also remember him getting booed extensively a few years ago, after his face turn. I don't think he was pushed down our throats at first, but the fact that he's never left the main event #1 or 2 contender ship when he's not champ seems a little silly to me, even undertaker or HhH or Michaels fall off at times.

[Fantabulous]

Cena showing up on Raw for the first time as part of a draft saw one of the most insanely loud crowd reactions ever. I don't think I've ever seen a Raw crowd go that berserk since.

[PeterHilton]

well, i'm older and i don't really remember him getting a ton of air time/pops as a heel... i sorta remember him in that tweener role. I did watch more back then btw. I know he earned a good portion of his popularity, but i also remember him getting booed extensively a few years ago, after his face turn. I don't think he was pushed down our throats at first, but the fact that he's never left the main event #1 or 2 contender ship when he's not champ seems a little silly to me, even undertaker or HhH or Michaels fall off at times.

Did Hogan leave the top spot when he's was in his prime?

that's what astounds me by the 'internet fan' reaction to John Cena...I don't even really like the 'Super Cena' crap but at least I can see the reasoning:

--when he's done, Cena will leave wrestling as one of the top 5 draws in the history of the industry.

--He's the most popular and most reliable draw in a period where the WWE lost it's other major stars, and in an economic recession.

--He's a nice guy with no personal baggage to worry about, unlike someone like Jeff Hardy or Batista

--He gets booed at times by the smarts in the crowd? Who cares??? That just means he has people who will pay to root for him AND pay to root against him. This 'he needs to turn' stuff is crap...unless you have a monster storyline in place, why turn a character people boo anyway?

It's just insane; it's the typical response where net fans start thinking their own personal opinion is shared by the majority of the WWE audience,when 99.9% of the time,it just isn't.

[djthefunkchris]

well, i'm older and i don't really remember him getting a ton of air time/pops as a heel... i sorta remember him in that tweener role. I did watch more back then btw. I know he earned a good portion of his popularity, but i also remember him getting booed extensively a few years ago, after his face turn. I don't think he was pushed down our throats at first, but the fact that he's never left the main event #1 or 2 contender ship when he's not champ seems a little silly to me, even undertaker or HhH or Michaels fall off at times.

What should that really tell you?

Does it not count all the times Cena did go below to feud with other's though (Miz for example).

I'm not a Cena fan much at all these days, but I can't deny the stuff that's just .... there for anyone to see. You can easily go look up everything your talking about on Youtube.com, and see within' a few minutes where your wrong or whatever.

A couple of years ago there was a huge internet gangup on Cena, where he was getting alot more Boo's then you would expect, depending on where the WWE was at the time. Mainly the "Interwebs" as you put it, the internet fans that like to say they would push Carlito to be tougher then Cena, or I believe now The Miz is someone they like... I know they used to love John Morrison, etc... People that are not even half as over should be Main Eventing in WWE according to these people, and they want it NOW.

The thing is, if they stick around, prove themselves, and are able to get themselves over... The WWE has proven they would "go with it". There is always going to be a few individuals that don't make it, can't stick with them, won't like their rules, etc. These people will not make it no matter how much people think they deserve it (Shelton Benjamin for example).

The figures that WWE see are not the same as you think they see. IF someone was NOT super over, they would know it from alot more then In Ring "booing". Merchandise sells increasing at the same time he gets boo'd, etc.

Pluss, boo's are just like Cheers as far as wrestling goes. Hate them or love them, they are over "You KNOW who they are".

[Melanieshaman]

Did Hogan leave the top spot when he's was in his prime?

that's what astounds me by the 'internet fan' reaction to John Cena...I don't even really like the 'Super Cena' crap but at least I can see the reasoning:

--when he's done, Cena will leave wrestling as one of the top 5 draws in the history of the industry.

--He's the most popular and most reliable draw in a period where the WWE lost it's other major stars, and in an economic recession.

--He's a nice guy with no personal baggage to worry about, unlike someone like Jeff Hardy or Batista

--He gets booed at times by the smarts in the crowd? Who cares??? That just means he has people who will pay to root for him AND pay to root against him. This 'he needs to turn' stuff is crap...unless you have a monster storyline in place, why turn a character people boo anyway?

It's just insane; it's the typical response where net fans start thinking their own personal opinion is shared by the majority of the WWE audience,when 99.9% of the time,it just isn't.


No, I get it, i dont read net wrestling news or much with fans feelings really other than here. I get WWE is creating a hogan for this generation in cena, i can personally not like him right? I know i am in the minority when it comes to cena, orton, austin, etc... that's fine we all have our favs right? I'm not trying to fight with anyone or piss anyone off, I was just trying to get a few opinions on why some people are still popular or getting such big pushes (my main point was on orton anyway).

[Melanieshaman]

Pluss, boo's are just like Cheers as far as wrestling goes. Hate them or love them, they are over "You KNOW who they are".

LOL true, i never thought of it that way. the feud with Miz, i assumed was Cena giving him the rub, trying to push him UP a notch not Cena down. I guess I am wrong there as well.

[SaySo]

well, i'm older and i don't really remember him getting a ton of air time/pops as a heel... i sorta remember him in that tweener role. I did watch more back then btw. I know he earned a good portion of his popularity, but i also remember him getting booed extensively a few years ago, after his face turn. I don't think he was pushed down our throats at first, but the fact that he's never left the main event #1 or 2 contender ship when he's not champ seems a little silly to me, even undertaker or HhH or Michaels fall off at times.

The boo-birds didn't stop WWE revenue from jumping $262 million in 2006 to $520 million in 2008. Coincidence that John Cena was the face of the WWE during that time period on the flag ship show. He held the title for 380 days in 2007 (a year earlier) until injuring himself in a match with Ken Kennedy in the Fall, relinquishing the title. He was scheduled to lose the title to Randy Orton which would have boosted Orton much more if Cena was healthy and ready to do the job (note, when Orton beat Cena at last year SummerSlam, that the fan reaction started to increase from that period to now...what a win can do for ya). Chris Benoit / Wellness Policy controversy occurred in 2007 and likely tarnish the image of the WWE. Yet the WWE made their best business the following year.

Cena made a spectacular return at Royal Rumble 2008 at Madison Square Garden. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juy5Kg1Fpd4 - 2 minute later mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juy5Kg1Fpd4). Guess shoving down the throat of fans = successful. E.g. Kozlov was shove down our throat and guess what happened with him, he's tagging w/Santino and not even in a high profile matches ever since his debut year. Meanwhile Cena been featured in high profile match the last five years because he sells. Business is about making $$$, not sacrificing a cash cow for the boo-birds. Boo-birds = did the bottom line fall? Nope. Boo-birds didn't drive business, Cena was one of the driver's of the business and they did just fine despite UFC dominance of the PPV landscape the last couple of years.

Recap:
Why didn't he leave the main event scene? = he draws. Wrestling is all about drawing. Any business is about selling. When someone draws, they sell tickets, they sell merchandise, etc..

Did the boo-bird cause the WWE business to lose money because they shoved Cena down our throat? = 2006 was the height of the boo-birds, WWE revenues jumped $262 million to $520 million in two years. Guess Cena was a bad decision to be the face of the WWE, not!

[djthefunkchris]

No, I get it, i dont read net wrestling news or much with fans feelings really other than here. I get WWE is creating a hogan for this generation in cena, i can personally not like him right? I know i am in the minority when it comes to cena, orton, austin, etc... that's fine we all have our favs right? I'm not trying to fight with anyone or piss anyone off, I was just trying to get a few opinions on why some people are still popular or getting such big pushes (my main point was on orton anyway).

Orton is just one of those that can't be denied. I didn't think much of him a few years back, but now... He can just go in the ring and look around in a evilish way, and he gets a HUGE reaction.

All the personal stories and such would reflect to us that he's not someone we would actually want to hang around with, probably wouldn't like him too much. However, the thing most know about is only what the WWE air's. He's been there forever and a day, he's young, he's Hugely popular. If I were to compare anyone in the "E" to Steve Austin, this would be the guy, right now, at this time.

Although you didn't like Austin as an in ring talent either.

[Melanieshaman]

Cena made a spectacular return at Royal Rumble 2008 at Madison Square Garden. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juy5Kg1Fpd4 - 2 minute later mark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juy5Kg1Fpd4).

Guess Cena was a bad decision to be the face of the WWE, not!
Color me impressed with that pop, I think i saw that match too... see? old age and memory, you know what they say. Obviously some people get pushed to the moon and have something about them that sticks with the fans, and apparently Cena has that.. Hats off to him.

[SaySo]

It's ashamed that the neck injury Austin suffered at SummerSlam 1997 took some of his abilities in the ring.

His match w/Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13 was the best match that night.

However, it didn't stop him from becoming the number one draw during the Attitude Era. But i felt the neck injury took away some of his in-ring talent. But he was still fun to watch laying a can of whoop grass.

[Melanieshaman]

Orton is just one of those that can't be denied. I didn't think much of him a few years back, but now... He can just go in the ring and look around in a evilish way, and he gets a HUGE reaction.

Although you didn't like Austin as an in ring talent either.


I just don't understand the draw of orton, and his shtick, and as for austin, i get why he was popular, he was perfect for the E back then at that time. I just didn't care for him... I bet i'm not the only person, but i'm sure it would be hard to find someone like me that feels that way about austin.

[Melanieshaman]

It's ashamed that the neck injury Austin suffered at SummerSlam 1997 took some of his abilities in the ring.
His match w/Bret Hart at WrestleMania 13 was the best match that night.


Oh most definitely, i mean I saw that match, it was awesome, i just wanted him to shut up! lol

[djthefunkchris]

I just don't understand the draw of orton, and his shtick, and as for austin, i get why he was popular, he was perfect for the E back then at that time. I just didn't care for him... I bet i'm not the only person, but i'm sure it would be hard to find someone like me that feels that way about austin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc23MAJb57w&feature=related

Ever since that happened, and his feud with HHH, and taking out every single McMahan, I seen his turn to face coming. He's not a "Heel" anymore, but a renegade Face, same as Austin kind of. He don't really trust anyone, and RKO's everyone reminds me of Stunning everyone, etc.

Edit for better viewing, lol

[Robtallica]

cena was not push down peoples throats to being with. he started out as a ****y punk heel but his rapping stuff got him over with the fans and id say the fans where the reason for his face turn mainly because he was very diffrent from the rest of the roster at the time and people where starting to get behind him.

a big part of the reason why most people over the age of 12-14 dont like cena is partly due to those who remember the him from his rapper days and would have rather he when back down that route and the fact that he is now this era hogan ie the whole good guy with the pure heart, kissing babys. also the fact he hasnt been out of the title picture since 2005 dont help him out with the whole pushing down people throats claims.

and the people who cliam that he's never had a good match in his career i disagree. cena is never going to put on a classic pure wrestling match but he's had good matchs with edge, hbk, hhh, and jericho. yes i know these guys have great talent and in hbk's case he could make me look good, but i dont thinks he the worst guy on there roster in ring talent wise

[Melanieshaman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mc23MAJb57w&feature=related

Ever since that happened, and his feud with HHH, and taking out every single McMahan, I seen his turn to face coming. He's not a "Heel" anymore, but a renegade Face, same as Austin kind of. He don't really trust anyone, and RKO's everyone reminds me of Stunning everyone, etc.

Edit for better viewing, lol


Ahhhh ok I had forgotten about that. That was a LONG time ago was it not? Not that that matters in wrestling time :P I get it not, he's like a silent austin i guess.

[Melanieshaman]

cena is never going to put on a classic pure wrestling match but he's had good matchs with edge, hbk, hhh, and jericho. yes i know these guys have great talent and in hbk's case he could make me look good, but i dont thinks he the worst guy on there roster in ring talent wise

Even I know that! :P lol

[djthefunkchris]

Even I know that! :P lol

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQO3MRTC_-4&feature=related

This to me is just "cold", maybe not Stone Cold, but they booked this pretty good, besides the RKO/FU (whatever they call it) not working out.


EDIT: To add to the conversation a bit more.

I've always felt they take longer in the "E" then most other promotions. TO ME, this is normal, as most promotions historically took time a great deal of time to get people over. Randy Orton took a good while to get over, although some people didn't take as long (Cena). The last few years to me, they take less time then ever getting people over. I think this is where WWE Superstars and such help them out, being able to get people seen more that would normally not be able to be seen as much.

This is also the reason I like the brand splits, wish the ECW brand would have worked out for them as well. It does nothing but help in my opinion, even if it only does a 1.0 in ratings. That might not sound like much, but when you consider alot of shows lasting for years that dont' get even that big, you have to consider that it must take alot more for them to get someone over. If they are cancelling shows that do around a 1.0 rating, then it must be because the show isn't helping them as much as they would want it to... takes to long to work with. At least that is the only thing I can think of that makes sense.

TNA doesn't get the kind of viewer's that WWE gets, yet have more people for us to try to know. This is where I think they move people too fast, and why it's very healthy for them to get someone like Anderson/Kennedy who has already become somewhat popular elsewhere. They just don't have the viewers it seems to take to "build" from within', in any reasonable amount of time. Even now, after being on for several years... People like Angle, Anderson, RVD, Hardy, etc. are more well known then poeple that have been there for years, like Joe and Styles. Their "homegrown" talent is not as over anywhere outside of the TNA arena, as the "ex" WWE/WCW stars are, that they hire. Imagine WWE trying to use Next, or ECW as their main way of getting someone completely over, and you can imagine what it takes for TNA to do the same. If they could just double their viewership for a good year, TNA could do alot more with the stars they have, and really build it up to another level/different way of doing things. Till that time comes, I understand hiring people like Hogan, Hardy, RVD, Angle, Elijah Burke/Pope, Kennedy/Anderson, etc. NOW, those of us that keep up with them know where to see them and watch, so it helps us (the internet people) go there to see our favorites that have left the WWE, but it doesn't help those NOT in the "know" as I come by people all the time that don't realise Hogan and Flair are around still, don't realise Sting has been around at all for the last 10 years, nor people like Raven or Rhino, etc. These people are people that are known, but since TNA is not in as many homes, there is a serious amount of people that don't even know their favorite wrestler's are still around....

However, they do know about Cena, Big Show, Undertaker, John Morrison, The Miz, Randy Orton, etc. They know about these people even though they don't watch... because people still talk wrestling, and when they do they talk about what the "E" is doing. A good while back, it took years to build a great character up, now you can do this in about six months... in the WWE. In TNA it would take years, if your really wanting it to work, unless you get them from OUTSIDE sources (WWE).

[Robtallica]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQO3MRTC_-4&feature=related

This to me is just "cold", maybe not Stone Cold, but they booked this pretty good, besides the RKO/FU (whatever they call it) not working out.


EDIT: To add to the conversation a bit more.

I've always felt they take longer in the "E" then most other promotions. TO ME, this is normal, as most promotions historically took time a great deal of time to get people over. Randy Orton took a good while to get over, although some people didn't take as long (Cena). The last few years to me, they take less time then ever getting people over. I think this is where WWE Superstars and such help them out, being able to get people seen more that would normally not be able to be seen as much.

This is also the reason I like the brand splits, wish the ECW brand would have worked out for them as well. It does nothing but help in my opinion, even if it only does a 1.0 in ratings. That might not sound like much, but when you consider alot of shows lasting for years that dont' get even that big, you have to consider that it must take alot more for them to get someone over. If they are cancelling shows that do around a 1.0 rating, then it must be because the show isn't helping them as much as they would want it to... takes to long to work with. At least that is the only thing I can think of that makes sense.

TNA doesn't get the kind of viewer's that WWE gets, yet have more people for us to try to know. This is where I think they move people too fast, and why it's very healthy for them to get someone like Anderson/Kennedy who has already become somewhat popular elsewhere. They just don't have the viewers it seems to take to "build" from within', in any reasonable amount of time. Even now, after being on for several years... People like Angle, Anderson, RVD, Hardy, etc. are more well known then poeple that have been there for years, like Joe and Styles. Their "homegrown" talent is not as over anywhere outside of the TNA arena, as the "ex" WWE/WCW stars are, that they hire. Imagine WWE trying to use Next, or ECW as their main way of getting someone completely over, and you can imagine what it takes for TNA to do the same. If they could just double their viewership for a good year, TNA could do alot more with the stars they have, and really build it up to another level/different way of doing things. Till that time comes, I understand hiring people like Hogan, Hardy, RVD, Angle, Elijah Burke/Pope, Kennedy/Anderson, etc. NOW, those of us that keep up with them know where to see them and watch, so it helps us (the internet people) go there to see our favorites that have left the WWE, but it doesn't help those NOT in the "know" as I come by people all the time that don't realise Hogan and Flair are around still, don't realise Sting has been around at all for the last 10 years, nor people like Raven or Rhino, etc. These people are people that are known, but since TNA is not in as many homes, there is a serious amount of people that don't even know their favorite wrestler's are still around....

However, they do know about Cena, Big Show, Undertaker, John Morrison, The Miz, Randy Orton, etc. They know about these people even though they don't watch... because people still talk wrestling, and when they do they talk about what the "E" is doing. A good while back, it took years to build a great character up, now you can do this in about six months... in the WWE. In TNA it would take years, if your really wanting it to work, unless you get them from OUTSIDE sources (WWE).

didnt joe just walk in from ROH and instanlty hit it big then? yh he didnt go stright into the main event but from his first match there he was a pull and looked like the badist s.o.b. on there roster.

i think a big reason for quick stars in wwe is mainly down to most guys not being much diffrent from the rest. it dont take alot to stand out in wwe right now. while there roster is far from in bad shape alot of guys there are some stagment in there spots in the and for some reason they seem to think that pushing a few guys from out no-where is going to help them out in the long term.

Orton took so long to get really over because of his gimmick of the arrogent good looking guy at the start when he join evo then not long after a failed face turned he became the whole 3rd gen guy when he was with his dad on smackdown then the same with legacy which while they fitted him and made him a well known to wrestling fans neither of them where really going to turn him into the biggist thing in wrestling

[djthefunkchris]

didnt joe just walk in from ROH and instanlty hit it big then? yh he didnt go stright into the main event but from his first match there he was a pull and looked like the badist s.o.b. on there roster.

i think a big reason for quick stars in wwe is mainly down to most guys not being much diffrent from the rest.

I don't mean to <snip> out your post like this, but I wanted to concentrate here for a minute. I'm in agreement with you mostly, just want to make sure I'm understood a little bit.

Your talking about Samoa Joe in TNA, right? If this is the case, then I think you can understand where they were at that point compared to where they are now. Joe coming in and being a the badist s. o. b. on their roster isn't something that gave them huge ratings or really anything outside of what Joe already had before he went there... a Huge following for an Indy wrestler. Still bassically the same after all this time, he might have created a "few" more fans, but it's not in the same boat as he would be if he debuted in the WWE and was successfully thrown in the Main Event in the same way. That being said, he probably would (to this day) have a hard time getting him over in the span of months, let alone right away, in the WWE. I think we can look at Umaga (in the fact has some skill, built similar, etc.) and figure that it would take about the same amount of time for Joe to become that popular as well (in the WWE).

The second point you made I can agree with. They have a sort of cookie cutter thing they do with most of the wrestler's... although they've added a few types since the popularity of Mysterio... we now have our Even Bourne's and "flashy" high flying mover types, and they are introduced as such.

These are standards that have proven to be a way to get someone over. I would figure if they can't get any momentum with "standards" then I'm not going to invest alot of time in them working out some other gimmick that might work better. I'll do my best to make the standard work, and then I'll let it go where it seems to go, and hope the worker grasps onto something.

As for people that do end up standing out, I'm going to work something special with them, and hope they stand out even more. However, it's a standard "good" vs. "Bad" that is going to always be there, unless something drastic occurs. I would think you would have to have an amazing skill on the roster to "break" the mold though. I don't see it working just because the creative team decides to do something unique.. it takes the talent to carry it out as well.

[Hyde Hill]

Well Joe did move the needle somewhat for TNA's standards but your point stands that in total that is not the same as WWE standards. Also Joe moving that needle for the most part was contingent on his feud with Angle so it was both Joe and Angle that resulted in that. With Angle highly likely taking most of the credit for that.

[Robtallica]

I don't mean to <snip> out your post like this, but I wanted to concentrate here for a minute. I'm in agreement with you mostly, just want to make sure I'm understood a little bit.

Your talking about Samoa Joe in TNA, right? If this is the case, then I think you can understand where they were at that point compared to where they are now. Joe coming in and being a the badist s. o. b. on their roster isn't something that gave them huge ratings or really anything outside of what Joe already had before he went there... a Huge following for an Indy wrestler. Still bassically the same after all this time, he might have created a "few" more fans, but it's not in the same boat as he would be if he debuted in the WWE and was successfully thrown in the Main Event in the same way. That being said, he probably would (to this day) have a hard time getting him over in the span of months, let alone right away, in the WWE. I think we can look at Umaga (in the fact has some skill, built similar, etc.) and figure that it would take about the same amount of time for Joe to become that popular as well (in the WWE).

The second point you made I can agree with. They have a sort of cookie cutter thing they do with most of the wrestler's... although they've added a few types since the popularity of Mysterio... we now have our Even Bourne's and "flashy" high flying mover types, and they are introduced as such.

These are standards that have proven to be a way to get someone over. I would figure if they can't get any momentum with "standards" then I'm not going to invest alot of time in them working out some other gimmick that might work better. I'll do my best to make the standard work, and then I'll let it go where it seems to go, and hope the worker grasps onto something.

As for people that do end up standing out, I'm going to work something special with them, and hope they stand out even more. However, it's a standard "good" vs. "Bad" that is going to always be there, unless something drastic occurs. I would think you would have to have an amazing skill on the roster to "break" the mold though. I don't see it working just because the creative team decides to do something unique.. it takes the talent to carry it out as well.

well i said joe because he was the first guy who was not ex wwe/wcw wrestler to join that did bring other viewers due to following which was not as big as rvd/hardy/hogan fan following but it was big for an indie guy...

im not saying that good vs evil dont work and what not its just so many of the wwe roster outside of the main event dont seem to have much in the way of personality in some ways. and those that do are basicly the same as each other. i like even bourne and john morrison but they dont seem to get air time when it comes to showing personality (yes jomo gets bits here and there like the free running he did the other week backstage but when did they last give him decent promo time?)

[Jaysin]

Are the tag titles being defended tonight? Ya know on the night where all the gold is supposedly on the line?

[Tha Black Phenom]

Guess not. Yet they have a non-title match in Show vs. Punk. Figures.

Anyway, the Miz/Daniel Bryan hype video was exquisite. WWE knows how to make 'em.

[jjohns44]

Woooo, so glad to see Daniel Bryan get the gold! I haven't seen or ordered a PPV in a long time, so here's hoping its decent. It's been ok so far match-wise.

[djthefunkchris]

LOL true, i never thought of it that way. the feud with Miz, i assumed was Cena giving him the rub, trying to push him UP a notch not Cena down. I guess I am wrong there as well.
No, you have that right actually. I'm not sure how you took what I said and come to a different conclusion, but I did not intent to make you think differently...

It goes both ways though, Orton as a Heel gave Dibiase and Rhodes a "rub" as well. The only reason I bring that up, is I'm unsure of your reasoning for the statement above, and it almost sounds like you might not realise that Heels give rubs as well (Chris Jericho is the best example I can think of).

Well Joe did move the needle somewhat for TNA's standards but your point stands that in total that is not the same as WWE standards. Also Joe moving that needle for the most part was contingent on his feud with Angle so it was both Joe and Angle that resulted in that. With Angle highly likely taking most of the credit for that.

Angle come when Joe was already established as bassically "The Best" on the TNA roster. Angle went up against Joe to establish himself as a "main" player. The difference here is that Angle didn't need it, and it helped Joe, but.... as I said it must take more then the 1.0 type viewing audience to "make" a big enough difference. So Bassically TNA's roster is stagnant. It don't move much, and the main players are going to remain the same. AJ is never going to be as known as Angle, but putting him in there with Flair, Hogan, Angle, etc. helps an awefull lot. Imagine where he would be in terms of popularity, if they had the viewing audience of RAW. He would be a huge star in my opinion... He could go to the WWE right now and be more then a Midcarder. He is one of the few though, that would be able to start in the middle not the bottum (far as "homegrown" goes).

[SaySo]

Are the tag titles being defended tonight? Ya know on the night where all the gold is supposedly on the line?

Drew McIntyre and Dashing Cody Rhodes won a match against Hart Dynasty on SmackDown. When a team beats a champion in a non-title match, they typically get a title shot. Which has to be tonight.

Big Show and CM Punk at least are former World Champions. Night of Champions = Titles are defended. Nothing wrong with a filler match featuring Chicago's own CM Punk.

McCool = undisputed. Continue to roll along as PWI #1 female wrestler. Gotta be the Styles Clash move she executes.

Apparently....Usos? lol. Replacing Dashing Cody Rhodes with the Usos. <-- n/m PWTorch needs to update their page better.

[Jaysin]

Tag Team Turmoil...

Hart Dynasty vs Usos vs Evan Bourne and Mark Henry vs Santino and Kozlov vs Drew and Cody...

Wow, only two real tag teams in the match?

Why not the Gate Crashers and the Dude Busters instead of Santino/Kozlov, Drew/Cody, and Evan/Henry?

[SaySo]

Borne and Henry have tagged in the past (wasn't it Henry who helped Borne out against Edge on 9/12 Raw? yes). Drew and Cody have an alliance the last month against the team of Twitt Hardy and Christian. They were also on the 900th episode of Raw in a no contest. Santino and Kozlov been teaming for over a couple of months. Undefeated as a tag team. But their undefeated streak is irrelevant. They should just add win streaks to it like WCW did to Goldberg. So today's StarrCade 1998 for them. Usos don't belong in there (enhancement talent). R-Truth and Morrison should have taken their place but Morrison has been receiving a singles push the last two weeks (win over Jericho, screwed over in his match against Sheamus by Jericho).

[SaySo]

Guess not. Yet they have a non-title match in Show vs. Punk. Figures.

Anyway, the Miz/Daniel Bryan hype video was exquisite. WWE knows how to make 'em.

They should have made it a number one contender's match or billled it is a battle between former WHC/ECW Champions.

[Hyde Hill]

Borne and Henry have tagged in the past (wasn't it Henry who helped Borne out against Edge on 9/12 Raw? yes). Drew and Cody have an alliance the last month against the team of Twitt Hardy and Christian. They were also on the 900th episode of Raw in a no contest. Santino and Kozlov been teaming for over a couple of months. Undefeated as a tag team. But their undefeated streak is irrelevant. They should just add win streaks to it like WCW did to Goldberg. So today's StarrCade 1998 for them. Usos don't belong in there (enhancement talent). R-Truth and Morrison should have taken their place but Morrison has been receiving a singles push the last two weeks (win over Jericho, screwed over in his match against Sheamus by Jericho).

Doesn't matter Jaysin's point still stands. Just because they have tagged occasionally or lately doesn't make them a tag team. All those undercard real teams could really get a help from the exposure. The thrown together ones are just that thrown together till they figure out what to do with them as singles wrestlers.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

That elimination sequence was pretty cool.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Here comes the flash RKO on Barrett.

[Jaysin]

Well I'm officially not watching WWE again for awhile. I personally cannot withstand another Orton title run. He's way too boring.

[The Celt]

Pros of NOC
--------------
Daniel Bryan wins the US title
Kane actually beat UT clean to retain

Cons of NOC
-----------------
The Hart Dynasty got screwed out of their titles in a clusterf*ckmaggedon
The Divas unification match had a horribly botched ending (in my mind) and that actually makes me really sad because it was an historic match
Punk is beaten in less then 5 minutes by Big Show and there doesn't appear to be any storyline advancement on the horizon for the Straight Edge Savoir

Meh of NOC
------------------
Everything else

[SaySo]

Doesn't matter Jaysin's point still stands. Just because they have tagged occasionally or lately doesn't make them a tag team. All those undercard real teams could really get a help from the exposure. The thrown together ones are just that thrown together till they figure out what to do with them as singles wrestlers.

But they been thrown together before and participated in more than 5 tag matches together. Participated as a team before. Santino and Kozlov been together since their dance off at Viewer Choice Raw (start of the Summer). Dashing Cody Rhodes and Drew McIntyre formed an alliance the SmackDown after SummerSlam when Dashing Cody Rhodes helped Drew beat the 140 characters out of Twitt Hardy.

However, Borne/Mark Henry and maybe Usos (Santino/Kozlov italian koltov them plenty of times) should have been replaced with Dudebusters and Gate Crashers. But i believe Gatecrashers and Dudebusters are in a best of 99 match series on Superstars. Maybe when they conclude their best of 99 series, they'll get thrown in.

So replace Borne/Mark Henry then with Palace of Truth or Wisdom of Truth team. Morrison / R-Truth. However, looking back the last month, Morrison/Truth had a no.1 contenders match at 900th edition of Raw with Dashing Drew (new tag champs name?). But i think plans changed with Morrison after defeating Jericho two weeks ago and coming close of being the sixth man in the six pack challenge (til Jericho nailed him with a chair).

[b0shey]

Damn, i was hoping either Wade Barrett win or that Miz would cash in the MITB breifcase

[Tha Black Phenom]

An Orton face run? Could be interesting, allows Cena to take some form of a backseat(though not completely ofc) and it's a different sight. And cherry on the cake, Miz didn't cash in. Hallelujah. I'll be tuning in on the other hand.

Kane winning clean makes me happy as well.

[SaySo]

The Miz should wait for HITC. Cash it in after Satan's Cell match versus cashing it in before hands and having to get into the cage to defend your title two weeks from now.

Cena is making another movie and shooting starts in October. He'll probably spend time w/filming and Raw / PPV appearances.

Kane -vs- The UnderTaker 13th year anniversary = October 5, 2010.... Hell in the Cell 2010 takes place on 10/3. 13 years since the day a masked Kane opened the doors of the Cell and tombstoned the UnderTaker.

[SaySo]

JRsBBQ

Randy Orton is the new #1 guy in WWE. He's got 'attitude.' Plus lots of charisma. New WWE Champion. Congrats Randy. 19 minutes ago via txt

=====

Not JR too. He got eye for talent.

[MrOnu]

It was an okay night. Nothing really outstanding, but not really godamm awful either. Or maybe the Divas match was awful, but I prefered to take care of my laundry during that time. I can't comment either on Kane/Taker match, I barely watched, I have absolutely zero interest in that story.

Main event was pretty entertaining even though the crowing of Orton was predictable. Sign of a new time : Orton was introduced last, not Cena, basically confirming the fact that Orton is very over and has a lot of momentum right now; I might even go as far as saying that he's the number #1 face right now.

For a throw away match, I actually enjoyed the tag titles bout. I thought it was good booking.

I'm glad they gave Miz and Bryan a long time to tell their story. The title switch was expected, it makes a lot of senses in the story, but I'm still not sold on Bryan as a credible threat to anything but career midcarders. Is it just me or The Miz tried to wrestle differently in that match ?

[hellboy2]

this was the first time, i actually watched, A wwe event in a long time, and it maybe because i was watching it in the early hours of the morning but i really enjoyed it, as predictable as it was i enjoyed the main event

only match i didn't watch was the diva's and didn't have much interest in the Dolph Ziggler? vs Kofi Kingston

so Night of Champions was good for me

[infinitywpi]

Just realized.... Show vs Punk was there because otherwise, all the Smackdown matches had heel wins. They must've realized that early on, s'why they booked the match in the first place...

[crownsy]

Just realized.... Show vs Punk was there because otherwise, all the Smackdown matches had heel wins. They must've realized that early on, s'why they booked the match in the first place...

The problem with smackdown right now, and they need to fix it after this storyline with taker-kane is that the show has three legitimate "monsters" in show, kane, and taker.

Tough to justify any win by a smaller/normal size worker over any of those guys once in a while, never mind a non-monster title run when 3 7 foot guys, two of them established stars and one a living legend.

It's really clogging up the top of Smackdown's card and keeping it stale. They need to finish off this kane/taker fued, which while enjoyable really doesn't need to go on forever, and put that belt on a "regular" size worker so we can get some good title matches from smackdown at PPV's


Edit: overall, a good card. Good match between miz and DB, with the right result. was kinda surprised the show ended 20 minutes early and no swerve happened. IF i had payed for that show, i would have been pissed it essentially ended at 10:30 and had 10 minutes of orton posing.

Also, i hope that's not the way Y2J's WWE career ends. hopefully he signs a new deal and comes back after some time off touring with his band, that would be an awful way to leave it with him.

at least they've set up a face turn when he comes back, and i did like how the whole match stopped because they were all shocked.

[jjohns44]

I was disappointed in how much it cost though. And Jericho's elimination so shortly into the match.

[dvdWarrior]

I didn't see the show myself, but it does sound kind of interesting. Have to say though, I'm not sure Cody Rhodes & Drew McEntyre are ready to be the Tag Team Champions. I mean, it takes a lot to hold those titles: you have to be ready to not be booked nor mentioned on a lot of shows, and you have to be ready to lose a lot of matches, sometimes even to a single opponent in handicap matches.

Are Rhodes & McEntyre up to the challenge?

[TracyBrooksFan]

i thought everyone in the match showed respect to Jericho by stopping and letting him have his moment

[Hyde Hill]

The problem with smackdown right now, and they need to fix it after this storyline with taker-kane is that the show has three legitimate "monsters" in show, kane, and taker.

Tough to justify any win by a smaller/normal size worker over any of those guys once in a while, never mind a non-monster title run when 3 7 foot guys, two of them established stars and one a living legend.

It's really clogging up the top of Smackdown's card and keeping it stale. They need to finish off this kane/taker fued, which while enjoyable really doesn't need to go on forever, and put that belt on a "regular" size worker so we can get some good title matches from smackdown at PPV's


Edit: overall, a good card. Good match between miz and DB, with the right result. was kinda surprised the show ended 20 minutes early and no swerve happened. IF i had payed for that show, i would have been pissed it essentially ended at 10:30 and had 10 minutes of orton posing.

Also, i hope that's not the way Y2J's WWE career ends. hopefully he signs a new deal and comes back after some time off touring with his band, that would be an awful way to leave it with him.

at least they've set up a face turn when he comes back, and i did like how the whole match stopped because they were all shocked.

Maybe it's just the ones I chose to watch or read recaps off but it seems this has been happening more lately the E not filling the full 3 hours.

Is this lack of talent for long matches? Lack of good booking and/or Road agent work? Cost cutting? Or a combination of all?

[SaySo]

On Matt Hardy's youtube account (matthardybrand), a fan asked WWE being mad at him. Here is Hardy's response:

"Are they? How come I'm not already 'fired' if the WWE is so mad at me-it's been over a week.. Think about it for a minute.."

Hardy also commented on his brother's legal status:

"You guys have no idea what the REAL deal is with everything-much more complex & layered than you know. Just because you read something in the media DAMN sure doesn't make it black and white. Everything is gonna be just fine with Jeffro."

[Jaysin]

Man, I just referred to Nexus as the New Blood/Breed World Order(nBWo) and someone almost ripped off my head. People shouldn't ask my opinion on things if they only want positive responses. I even said positive things, but I also said that Nexus isn't an original idea.

[SaySo]

Busted Open satellite radio show with Kane


Kane on his recent mic work and push:
"It's really the first time I've been given the opportunity to open up. That's been a lot of fun. As far as my in-ring work, at this point I have years and years and years of experience to draw on. So maybe where I've lost a half a step because I'm not the young man that I once was, but I've been able to make up for it with experience."

Kane also commented on how much of his recent mic work has been written for him:
"It's a combination of things, as almost everything we do is. A lot of it is me writing and stuff and coming up with ideas. We're often given a general direction or bullet points and then we fill in the blanks. As far as the performance itself, that is all me.

"I don't know that anyone else has done these particular...in the fashion that I do them. It's almost a Shakespearean type deal. I try to do those promos with a certain flow and sort of almost tell a story emotionally as I go through them. And, I do, of course, have some help."

Kane on whether he will run for office when his WWE career is over: "Probably not. I'm not into electoral politics as such. If you think what I do in WWE is brutal, you should talk to some people in politics about the things that happen to them.

[Hyde Hill]

Man, I just referred to Nexus as the New Blood/Breed World Order(nBWo) and someone almost ripped off my head. People shouldn't ask my opinion on things if they only want positive responses. I even said positive things, but I also said that Nexus isn't an original idea.

Lol where was that? Online or in real life? And what was his responce?

And you are right btw lolz.:p

[Hyde Hill]

Hmm WWE has gone back to using bullet points? Since when?

[eayragt]

Pros of NOC
--------------
Daniel Bryan wins the US title
Kane actually beat UT clean to retain

Cons of NOC
-----------------
The Hart Dynasty got screwed out of their titles in a clusterf*ckmaggedon
The Divas unification match had a horribly botched ending (in my mind) and that actually makes me really sad because it was an historic match
Punk is beaten in less then 5 minutes by Big Show and there doesn't appear to be any storyline advancement on the horizon for the Straight Edge Savoir

Meh of NOC
------------------
Everything else

Agree with the pros. I wonder when we look back on this forum how many people ripped into WWE for putting Bryan with the Miz in NXT? It turns out that was the absolutely perfect thing to do, and even with the slight hitch he has was allowed to confidentally defeat someone who will hold the WWE or World Title in teh next 12 months. And it was MOTN. And very happy Kane finally got a PPV win over 'Taker, even with the inevitablility of 'Taker getting the win back at Hell in the Cell.

What I didn't like about the Tag match was Bourne hitting the Airbourne against the Osu's. He would have used that to win the titles, so it was inevitable to that Drew / Cody would get the win. I'm not too disapointed witht them getting the belts as I was getting bored with their feud with Christian / Fatt Hardy. I'll accept one more title match.

Divas - if the ending was botched, they covered for it well. Loved the lame Jill fighting outside. Lets wave an elbox within a foot of your face. Lets smile as one another. What?

I'm happy with Punk losing - if he didn't, he wouldn't even have been on the show. And I'd rather see him in a short match and also get to see him cutting another great promo.

Other love - the Kane / 'Taker promo. Now that was good. Jericho's mini-farewell.

Other con - only Orton or Barrett were ever going to win the Main Event after the build up (Barrett was always a threat to win, but with Orton coming out last for the Main Event and the way they showed his interview he was definately being portrayed by the 'E as the favourite). And then when Nexus came out with four men left, that meant he wasn't going to win. Which only left Orton. Real question is though - what do you have as the Hell in the Cell match? You've got to have Barrett (as the reason for the Cell), Sheamus... means you've got to have Cena. So a fourway or fiveway without Edge (and I'm not sure you could take him out). One PPV is starting to look like another...

Doesn't matter Jaysin's point still stands. Just because they have tagged occasionally or lately doesn't make them a tag team. All those undercard real teams could really get a help from the exposure. The thrown together ones are just that thrown together till they figure out what to do with them as singles wrestlers.

That's Tag wrestling in the WWE (unfortunately). Very few people a brought in as tag teams - most teams are two singles workers. However, in this case they were all tag teams by the WWE standard.

[Jaysin]

Lol where was that? Online or in real life? And what was his responce?

And you are right btw lolz.:p

It was online. She's a fan of the Nexus, which I am too, but I just hate how people act like it's a completely original idea. Nothing in wrestling is an original idea anymore!

[SaySo]

Here's a WWE blooper:

http://www.gifsoup.com/view/148353/jeff-hardy-pyro-attack-o.gif

[eayragt]

Erm, not a blooper, part of a storyline. Part of the Edge vs Jeff into Matt vs Jeff arc.

[SaySo]

^(I'm) just a WWE mark rewriting an old storyine into a blooper.

If they are going to recycle angles, Triple H needs to push the pyro buttons in the back when Sheamus makes his ring entrance. And dirty automobile rags so when the medics come, they can smother him to give burn marks.

[Hyde Hill]

^(I'm) just a WWE mark rewriting an old storyine into a blooper.

If they are going to recycle angles, Triple H needs to push the pyro buttons in the back when Sheamus makes his ring entrance. And dirty automobile rags so when the medics come, they can smother him to give burn marks.

?? what's your point???? And if you wanted a blooper with pyro: Undertaker at the Elimination Chamber ppv.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

It was online. She's a fan of the Nexus, which I am too, but I just hate how people act like it's a completely original idea. Nothing in wrestling is an original idea anymore!

It passes the seven year rule. So its acceptable by wrestling standards.

[Melanieshaman]

No, you have that right actually. I'm not sure how you took what I said and come to a different conclusion, but I did not intent to make you think differently...

It goes both ways though, Orton as a Heel gave Dibiase and Rhodes a "rub" as well. The only reason I bring that up, is I'm unsure of your reasoning for the statement above, and it almost sounds like you might not realise that Heels give rubs as well (Chris Jericho is the best example I can think of).


I took it as you meant Cena was falling out of the main event picture...or taking it a step down, as I am on a lot of cold meds for the last few days i may get a little foggy :P

Of course heels give "rubs" I DID know that... and ya Jericho does it too often for my tastes.. why do you think he's the one forefront in your mind?

[LoNdOn]

Just when I thought I was going to have to kill Michael Cole he cuts down the entire season 3 cast of NXT......................Well done sir...............I think it and he says it. Maybe I can use this. :p

[Hyde Hill]

Face Cole = Crap.

Heel Cole = sometimes amusing.

[SaySo]

?? what's your point???? And if you wanted a blooper with pyro: Undertaker at the Elimination Chamber ppv.

Twit Hardy probably pressed the (pyro) buttons there too since 2010 was suppose to be the year of Twitter, i meant Twit Hardy because 140 characters will not die. Just a another revisioning on my part.

http://www.gifsoup.com/view1/1146669/michael-cole-gongs-nxt-o.gif http://www.gifsoup.com/view/554382/daniel-bryan-beats-up-cole-o.gif http://www.gifsoup.com/view3/1070187/cole-loves-it-o.gif

[LoNdOn]

Face Cole = Crap.

Heel Cole = sometimes amusing.

Anybody who thinks season 3 of NXT has any redeeming qualities beyond the fact that the competitors are easy on the eyes is mental. Its just soooooo crap it annoys me that I actually sat there with this look on my face (:mad:) for the duration of the show and after it finished it turned to this (:eek:) for about 2 hours..........How can you justify this ass gravy.

[SaySo]

http://i54.tinypic.com/opmzvk.jpg

[SaySo]

-- Chris Jericho was unable to capture the WWE Championship at Night of Champions and has vowed to leave WWE as a result. As noted before, the buzz going around WWE is that Jericho really is done for now. Jericho, who isn’t expected to be at RAW tonight, wrote the following on Twitter last night:

“Since I’ve apparently made my last appearance in the WWE, I guess I have nothing to do tomorrow…. The websites have spoken!!! Whatever, I’m goin to Calgary tomorrow so I’ll let yall hash it out…”

-- FOZZY — the band featuring WWE wrestling superstar Chris Jericho and STUCK MOJO mastermind Rich “The Duke” Ward — will return to Australia for the first time since 2005 in December.

Comments Jericho: “Our fans in Australia are some of the best FOZZY fans in the world and we heard your demands, so we are coming back and we are looking forward to tearing the house down with each and every one of you crazy bastards this December!”

The dates are as follows:

Dec. 02 – The Hi Fi – Melbourne, AUS
Dec. 03 – The Factory – Sydney, AUS
Dec. 05 – The Hi Fi – Brisbane, AUS

Tickets go on sale on Friday, September 24.

“Let The Madness Begin”, the new video from FOZZY, can be viewed below. The clip was filmed during the group’s 2010 U.K. and U.S. dates.

“Let The Madness Begin” comes off FOZZY’s new album, “Chasing The Grail”, which sold around 2,200 copies in the United States in its first week of release. The CD landed at position No. 6 on the Top New Artist Albums (Heatseekers) chart, which lists the best-selling albums by new and developing artists, defined as those who have never appeared in the Top 100 of The Billboard 200.

In a recent interview with Ultimate-Guitar.com, Ward stated about “Let The Madness Begin”, “[That particular track] is all about the balance between a really good, classic melody and a great, classic rock riff. That was our focus for the whole record, but I think ‘Let The Madness Begin’ is probably the one song on the album where I think that balance is best.

“Sometimes when you’re trying to write a heavy album, you find that sometimes you’ll end up compromising the melody for the riff, because obviously, the riff is so important for the drum part. On some rock albums, the vocals become the focus, and then the music takes a backseat. We tried to find that fine line where the music was important and the melody was important. We treated them as equals, and I think ‘Let The Madness Begin’ was that perfect balance between hard rock melodic vocals and a big metal riff.”

“Chasing the Grail” was released on January 26 via Australia’s Riot! Entertainment.

Jim Ross Response to Jericho departure
Jim Ross has posted the following on his Twitter account concerning rumors that Chris Jericho is finished with WWE: "If Chris Jericho has competed in his last WWE bout I would be shocked. I need to see it to believe no matter what was said Sunday night on pay-per-view."

[Tha Black Phenom]

For anyone who's interested:

http://www.justin.tv/bigban23#/w/405091840/2

WrestleMania marathon, from 1 to 26.

As of this post, they're on X-7, Rock vs. Austin. Quite stoked. Saw the TLC/HHH v Taker and was thoroughly entertained. Pulling up a few beers for this one.

[Slagaholic]

Looks like Y2J: could indeed done in WWE. After losing to Orton on the taping for next week's Raw, Orton punted him and Jericho was taken out on a stretcher.

[Hyde Hill]

Anybody who thinks season 3 of NXT has any redeeming qualities beyond the fact that the competitors are easy on the eyes is mental. Its just soooooo crap it annoys me that I actually sat there with this look on my face (:mad:) for the duration of the show and after it finished it turned to this (:eek:) for about 2 hours..........How can you justify this ass gravy.

Not defending NXT 3 was more a general observation about Cole.

[dvdWarrior]

Anybody who thinks season 3 of NXT has any redeeming qualities beyond the fact that the competitors are easy on the eyes is mental. Its just soooooo crap it annoys me that I actually sat there with this look on my face (:mad:) for the duration of the show and after it finished it turned to this (:eek:) for about 2 hours..........How can you justify this ass gravy.

I've thought NXT was crap since season 1. I called it LST for a while back then, more recently I've taken to calling it SHT.

:eek:

[LoNdOn]

Not defending NXT 3 was more a general observation about Cole.

I realise that. My comment wasn't directed towards you. I was still venting. :p

[UkWrestleFan]

So it's Cena vs Barrett at Hell In A Cell with the stipulation that if Cena loses, he joins Nexus but if Barrett loses, Nexus disband.

Interesting.

[Self]

I really hate those kind of stipulations. They just... It's not tangible to me. How can you enforce it?

[UkWrestleFan]

I really hate those kind of stipulations. They just... It's not tangible to me. How can you enforce it?

I know what you mean, it's odd. Highlight to read below;

Do you see a Cena heel turn anytime soon? I know he's the top money maker etc but I think putting the belt on Orton speaks volumes. Orton is getting great reactions and is over bigtime at the minute. Would turning Cena heel for a while really be out of the question? It would be a huge moment having the top face turn but eventually he'd turn again and that would be another huge moment.

Really, I don't know. I'd like them to turn him but things are pretty heel-heavy at the minute.

[lazorbeak]

I really hate those kind of stipulations. They just... It's not tangible to me. How can you enforce it?

You sign a contract? With massive penalties in the event of breach? How is it any harder to believe than literally any other thing that happens in wrestling?

[Self]

You sign a contract? With massive penalties in the event of breach? How is it any harder to believe than literally any other thing that happens in wrestling?

You can cut a man's hair. You can take a man's mask. You can force a man to whip it out in front of his grandparents. How do you change a man's ideology? That's what a stable is to me. A group of people who share a similar viewpoint on life and have banded together because of it. You can't force a man to change who he is on the inside.

That's my view on it anyway. I guess they just mean "Has to accompany Barrett to ringside" or "Has to wear the t-shirt every week" or be fired. Those things are tangible to me. "Join Nexus" is not.

[UkWrestleFan]

Maybe they'll hypnotize him? Has any wrestler ever used the gimmick of hypnotist? That'd be cool.

[Linsolv]

That's my view on it anyway. I guess they just mean "Has to accompany Barrett to ringside" or "Has to wear the t-shirt every week" or be fired. Those things are tangible to me. "Join Nexus" is not.

Joining Nexus means following orders, for one thing. I mean, if you're "part of Nexus" you better be in whatever beatdown they're doing.

[PeterHilton]

You can cut a man's hair. You can take a man's mask. You can force a man to whip it out in front of his grandparents. How do you change a man's ideology? That's what a stable is to me. A group of people who share a similar viewpoint on life and have banded together because of it. You can't force a man to change who he is on the inside.

That's my view on it anyway. I guess they just mean "Has to accompany Barrett to ringside" or "Has to wear the t-shirt every week" or be fired. Those things are tangible to me. "Join Nexus" is not.

It's wrestling. You're thinking waaay too much

[djthefunkchris]

You can cut a man's hair. You can take a man's mask. You can force a man to whip it out in front of his grandparents. How do you change a man's ideology? That's what a stable is to me. A group of people who share a similar viewpoint on life and have banded together because of it. You can't force a man to change who he is on the inside.

That's my view on it anyway. I guess they just mean "Has to accompany Barrett to ringside" or "Has to wear the t-shirt every week" or be fired. Those things are tangible to me. "Join Nexus" is not.

It's wrestling. You're thinking waaay too much

/nod... But think about the Benoit/Booker T thing, where Booker had Benoit fight all his battles. Or even JBL with Shawn Michaels.

Old storyline put into effect with a group instead of one man, and I'm sure this is a rehash as well, just can't remember when I seen it.

The thing is.... Cena is going to join Nexus, and become a bad guy so to speak. Something some people (me included) have been wanting to see for a while...

My only problem is that he "HAS" to do it, so he is not truly turning, just being manipulated. However, I LIKE IT, lol.

[Hyde Hill]

Maybe they'll hypnotize him? Has any wrestler ever used the gimmick of hypnotist? That'd be cool.

Not so much a hypnotist but when Raven was making his Flock in WCW they alluded him having some mental hold over them. More like a cult leader.

[Jingo]

Maybe they'll hypnotize him? Has any wrestler ever used the gimmick of hypnotist? That'd be cool.

Kendo Nagasaki (the Peter Thornley English one) has, the only wrestler i can think of.

[Self]

It's wrestling. You're thinking waaay too much

In this case, it takes more thinking for me to understand it than it does to think it's dumb, so I'm gonna go with the path of least resistance. It can work, but I don't like that kind of stipulation.

[Jaysin]

It'd be interesting if they went the way of the LWO and Rey Mysterio. Where Rey lost to Eddy and was forced to join the stable, then at the end Rey ended up taking some sort of pride in wearing the shirt and refused to take it off

Highlight above for my thoughts on the spoiler...

[dvdWarrior]

I've thought NXT was crap since season 1. I called it LST for a while back then, more recently I've taken to calling it SHT.

:eek:

Upon further consideration, I've decided that I was a little harsh in this post, and tbh I feel kind of badly about it. In truth, while I'm not especially fond of NXT as a show, I do like the original concept, and think it would have been pretty cool if the 'Pros' were actually teaching the 'Rookies" things, and if the rookies were being eliminated through losses in the ring and whatnot, and of course, if I had the confidence that not everyone ever seen on the show was going to end up 'signed' anyway, (so that the guy winning actually had achieved something), etc.

:o

[Hyde Hill]

RAW: 2.8 rating according to PWI. Ouch.

[supershot]

Upon further consideration, I've decided that I was a little harsh in this post, and tbh I feel kind of badly about it. In truth, while I'm not especially fond of NXT as a show, I do like the original concept, and think it would have been pretty cool if the 'Pros' were actually teaching the 'Rookies" things, and if the rookies were being eliminated through losses in the ring and whatnot, and of course, if I had the confidence that not everyone ever seen on the show was going to end up 'signed' anyway, (so that the guy winning actually had achieved something), etc.

:o

Exactly my thoughts too. If the show was more along these lines I'd most likely follow it every week. I'd rather them gain immunity threw winning matches than winning "contests".

[djthefunkchris]

RAW: 2.8 rating according to PWI. Ouch.

The night after a PPV, and they get millions of viewers. :eek:

Exactly my thoughts too. If the show was more along these lines I'd most likely follow it every week. I'd rather them gain immunity threw winning matches than winning "contests".

/nod. That does bug me, as it seemed like they would go that way to start with, but now... Figure they will all be signed.

The only thing is, I don't see them signing all these "diva's", but one seemed to be able to wrestle tonight (and I had not felt I would see that).

[supershot]

This was actually a pretty decent NXT episode. It was most likely due to CM Punk on the commentary team but either way I've never thought any of the episodes have been decent by my standards :cool:

[Johnny Fenoli]

OH MY GOD NXT WAS AWESOME! Just got done watching the train wreck... CM Punk made it even better, saying all the stuff that I've been saying for weeks. Hilarious.

[SaySo]

Source: PWTorch.com

Last night's WWE Raw scored a 2.80 rating and averaged 3.93 million viewers on "fall season premiere Monday."

Comparably, Raw scored a 3.45 rating and 5.01 million viewers last year on fall premiere Monday. In 2008, Raw scored a 3.10 rating and 4.74 million viewers on fall premiere Monday.

The rating was the first time below the 3.00 level since November 17, 2008. Average viewership was below 4.00 million viewers for the first time since Christmas Eve & New Year's Eve 2007.

Looking at the demographic numbers for last night's Raw, the show was down 17.0 percent among adults 18-49 compared to the third quarter 2010 average. Raw was also down 13.0 percent among males 18-49 vs. third quarter 2010.

On a week-to-week basis, Raw was down in five out of six key demographics. The only demographic where Raw increased was among males 18-49 with a 2.29 rating vs. 2.28 last week.

The biggest drop was among younger males 12-17 - down to a 2.49 rating compared to a 3.24 rating last week. The m12-17 rating was the lowest since July 5.

Three weeks ago on the August 30 Raw, WWE had one of their best weeks of the summer across the board. The following is a comparison of the six key demographic ratings for last night's Raw (Sept. 20) vs. last week (Sept. 13) and Aug. 30.

-- A18-34: down 8.8% vs. LW; down 20.3% vs. 8/30
-- A18-49: down 3.5% vs. LW; down 21.7% vs. 8/30
-- M18-34: down 7.3% vs. LW; down 22.3% vs. 8/30
-- M18-49: up 0.4% vs. LW; down 19.7% vs. 8/30
-- M12-34: down 13.8% vs. LW; down 15.8% vs. 8/30
-- M12-17: down 23.2% vs. LW; down 31.4% vs. 8/30

=====

I wonder how much they lost with that.

======

Chris Jericho News
According to Bryan Alvarez, WWE does have a tentative idea in regards to a Chris Jericho match at Wrestlemania 27.

Fozzy's European tour starts in two weeks and ends the final week of October, so it's believed he'll be gone until November at the earliest.

[SaySo]

OH MY GOD NXT WAS AWESOME! Just got done watching the train wreck... CM Punk made it even better, saying all the stuff that I've been saying for weeks. Hilarious.

The Cole Miners got their fave back on the show.

How fitting was the spear for Kaitlyn. Perfect move for her. Let's hope she doesn't kick a seizure into a diva in the near future. I'll be fearful if they gave her a super kick in her arsenal considering she's only had six weeks of training before NXT and got the second highest applause in the second competition.

[sabataged]

RAW: 2.8 rating according to PWI. Ouch.


You seriously are ridiculous. You want to praise TNA everytime they get above a 1.0 and then now WWE pulls under a 3.0 and its time to gloat? Also you treat the TNA threat like your own personal "Ask Hyde" thread, thinking you must reply and correct everybody comments/thoughts on TNA.

We get it. You like TNA over WWE. Jesus...

[UkWrestleFan]

SmackDown spolier below (highlight)

Paul Bearer is back!!!

[20LEgend]

^^ Really> YES YES YES YES... YYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSs

I may actually watch Smackdown for once.

Spoilz:
Hasn't he lost alot of weight

[Hyde Hill]

You seriously are ridiculous. You want to praise TNA everytime they get above a 1.0 and then now WWE pulls under a 3.0 and its time to gloat? Also you treat the TNA threat like your own personal "Ask Hyde" thread, thinking you must reply and correct everybody comments/thoughts on TNA.

We get it. You like TNA over WWE. Jesus...

I AM NOT GLOATING! FFS. If you thought I was then that is your problem for thinking I was and my problem for not making it clear as I did not think people on here would see it that way. RAW for better or worse is wrestling's flagship show and a 2.8 is bad news for all wrestling fans if it is not a one time thing as it means total interest in wrestling is waning. I have never praised TNA when they get above a 1.0. Anything above last years average is good, just good not praising, and any rise above the week before is good.

What's wrong about liking to talk and discuss TNA in a forum where I can discuss it with people who's opinions I respect and can make them clear and not go on rants or are trolls etc etc?

If I respond on that too much that is opinion. I decide what to do with my time and what entertains me.

So every post I make on every subject somehow is about how I prefer TNA to WWE? Get outta here.

[djthefunkchris]

I AM NOT GLOATING! FFS. If you thought I was then that is your problem for thinking I was and my problem for not making it clear as I did not think people on here would see it that way. RAW for better or worse is wrestling's flagship show and a 2.8 is bad news for all wrestling fans if it is not a one time thing as it means total interest in wrestling is waning. I have never praised TNA when they get above a 1.0. Anything above last years average is good, just good not praising, and any rise above the week before is good.

What's wrong about liking to talk and discuss TNA in a forum where I can discuss it with people who's opinions I respect and can make them clear and not go on rants or are trolls etc etc?

If I respond on that too much that is opinion. I decide what to do with my time and what entertains me.

So every post I make on every subject somehow is about how I prefer TNA to WWE? Get outta here.

I didn't even realise that's why you posted it, to be honest. You and SaySo have a habbit of just posting random information on both threads.

I really don't consider a .02 jump as anything to worry about, much less have a fear that Wrestling is going to end or something... I would look at it for what it is, a bad day. At least for now.

There is no indication in either promotion, from my standpoint, that either one of them is doing "Bad", much less a wrestling slump is on the horizon or something. I wouldn't worry over one day, at any rate. I know it's a NEW season and all, but that's exactly why I wouldn't worry about it. It's a New Season with new shows, and there could be a show that everyone was interested in seeing. It's not like RAW is going to be a different show, and it's always "live", and you can always see what happened on the internet or from the Raw Rebound, or just by watching any of their other shows.

If your worried about the Wrestling industry, why not just add up all the Ratings for every Wrestling show, per week. Take that and compare it with the same week last year, a year before, or even 10 years ago. See how many hours people are watching wrestling, as opposed to then, I think you will see a result that will make you alot more comfortable.;)

[Hyde Hill]

Well I mostly posted it just for the info and the Ouch came from it being a low rating for WWE and a direct quote from PWI. I just wanted to make clear I was not gloating etc. Agree with you on the general trend etc it's why I highlighted the IF part. Still going below a 3 is rare for RAW whatever the circumstances except if it's new years day or something like that.

But if it means that me preferring TNA means I can not be critical of the E that I think is ludicrous. Especially here.

[SaySo]

I didn't even realise that's why you posted it, to be honest. You and SaySo have a habbit of just posting random information on both threads.

I really don't consider a .02 jump as anything to worry about, much less have a fear that Wrestling is going to end or something... I would look at it for what it is, a bad day. At least for now.

There is no indication in either promotion, from my standpoint, that either one of them is doing "Bad", much less a wrestling slump is on the horizon or something. I wouldn't worry over one day, at any rate. I know it's a NEW season and all, but that's exactly why I wouldn't worry about it. It's a New Season with new shows, and there could be a show that everyone was interested in seeing. It's not like RAW is going to be a different show, and it's always "live", and you can always see what happened on the internet or from the Raw Rebound, or just by watching any of their other shows.

If your worried about the Wrestling industry, why not just add up all the Ratings for every Wrestling show, per week. Take that and compare it with the same week last year, a year before, or even 10 years ago. See how many hours people are watching wrestling, as opposed to then, I think you will see a result that will make you alot more comfortable.;)

The Event had a series debut on Monday. It received 11 million viewers according to wikipedia page of the show. Dancing With the Stars got 20 million viewers. And Monday Night Football, i didn't get a number for that one but i'm sure it was quite a bit.

[Hyde Hill]

The Event had a series debut on Monday. It received 11 million viewers from wikipedia. Dancing With the Stars got 20 million viewers. And Monday Night Football, i didn't get a number for that one but i'm sure it was quite a bit.

NFL did a 10.92.

Source: http://www.pwinsider.com/article/51096/raw-ratings-ouch.html?p=1

[brashleyholland]

I just wanted to make clear I was not gloating etc.

Gloat all you want mate, it's the internet!! :)

[dvdWarrior]

Just thought of this, but one thing WWE could do that MIGHT make me Mark Out would be to give Vladimir Kozlov some new music.. what I'm thinking of is a new rendition of "Real American" sung with a Russian accent.

For some reason I just think this music could make Vladdy a superstar.

I can almost hears it, time for Vladimania to start runnin' wild!.

:o

[djthefunkchris]

Just thought of this, but one thing WWE could do that MIGHT make me Mark Out would be to give Vladimir Kozlov some new music.. what I'm thinking of is a new rendition of "Real American" sung with a Russian accent.

For some reason I just think this music could make Vladdy a superstar.

I can almost hears it, time for Vladimania to start runnin' wild!.

:o

Only because you brought it up, would I feel the same way... However, I'm sure those that wouldn't be in on the initial thought would not have as much fun with it.

[djthefunkchris]

Well I mostly posted it just for the info and the Ouch came from it being a low rating for WWE and a direct quote from PWI. I just wanted to make clear I was not gloating etc. Agree with you on the general trend etc it's why I highlighted the IF part. Still going below a 3 is rare for RAW whatever the circumstances except if it's new years day or something like that.

But if it means that me preferring TNA means I can not be critical of the E that I think is ludicrous. Especially here.
I don't think he meant it as harsh as it sounded. I wouldn't worry about your posts, as everyone has a way of looking at things. Just because your don't look at things the same as... well, I don't know anyone that does, but then again I don't know anyone that looks at things the same as I do.

My only thing ever with you, is that I think you look at numbers too much, numbers that change too often to even look at them. Meaning... You have a habbit of seeing one weeks rating, and it doesn't matter which show... even TNA, and go "Oh no, the sky is falling!" Almost in a panic state if it's TNA, and I think you should really look at longer terms, and do your homework on what the numbers mean, old numbers vs. new numbers.

Of course, everything I just said could be applied to me and other's as well. So really, there is nothing but opinions that we all have, and I feel everyone's opinion should be welcomed. It's not like your going "WWE Mark, HA HA, Your ratings are down idiots! TNA till I die!!"

I've always found you open to criticism, and even more fair then expected sometimes. SO just wanted to let you know not everyone see's things in the same light.

I would say, since SaySo did show the loss of the 12 to 17 Year old crowd, with the "Males" 18 to 49 being the only increasing in viewership, that some of the TNA guys complaining that only kids are watching WWE might want to rethink their opinions though.

The Event had a series debut on Monday. It received 11 million viewers according to wikipedia page of the show. Dancing With the Stars got 20 million viewers. And Monday Night Football, i didn't get a number for that one but i'm sure it was quite a bit.

Dancing with the Stars has a few people that other's might like to see, for sure, this time around (of different age groups).

NFL did a 10.92.

Source: http://www.pwinsider.com/article/51096/raw-ratings-ouch.html?p=1

Hey, that might have a little something to do with it. I mean, lots of teams played monday, right?

Gloat all you want mate, it's the internet!! :)

Well, I wouldn't mind Gloating if there was something to "Gloat" about. I would love to here someone "gloat" about TNA getting a 3.0 or higher one day though, as would just about everyone else that knows about TNA (although they might not like TNA, most root for them in the back of their minds).


EDIT: I would like to point out something that I think everyone probably knows is more then likely to happen.... IF or WHEN TNA ever does start getting more viewers, making more money, etc.. then WWE, I'm sure your going to see the internet fans do a complete 180 flip flop.

The thing is there are too many people that want to like what is not "IN" as opposed to what is in. I'm not saying on these boards, I'm talking in general. I've even seen people post that they "purposely" go against the system, just to be different, and somehow relate that as to knowing something more or being better then the "sheep" that like what is popular. It's not really much different then cheering for the underdog, even though you know the other team is better, that's why the one your cheering is the underdog.

[PeterHilton]

Hey, that might have a little something to do with it. I mean, lots of teams played monday, right?


Oh, chris....:p

[djthefunkchris]

Oh, chris....:p

:D.

[PeterHilton]

I don't think he meant it as harsh as it sounded. I wouldn't worry about your posts, as everyone has a way of looking at things. Just because your don't look at things the same as... well, I don't know anyone that does, but then again I don't know anyone that looks at things the same as I do.


Also..yes he did. sabataged is pretty open about his criticism.

[PeterHilton]

:D.

chris, i know you're not an NFL guy, but every Monday the NFL runs one game. That's it. Unless it's some kind of special event like opening weekend.

But yeah...The Event, plus that awful dancing crap, PLUS MNF...that explains the low ratings.

[djthefunkchris]

NFL did a 10.92.

Source: http://www.pwinsider.com/article/51096/raw-ratings-ouch.html?p=1

Unless that is adding a bunch of ratings together, which it does not appear to be, he is talking about one game.

chris, i know you're not an NFL guy, but every Monday the NFL runs one game. That's it. Unless it's some kind of special event like opening weekend.

But yeah...The Event, plus that awful dancing crap, PLUS MNF...that explains the low ratings.

Yeah, a little joke. I thought you had caught it but I guess... not.

I might not be an NFL Guy, but I remember the commercials "Do you want a watch some football? Do you want to Party?" = Hank Williams sing-a-long.

Monday Night Football has been around, even back when I was into the NFL (and my hometown of Cleveland had a real team).


EDIT: I was hoping for you to comment on my comment about flip flopping though, lol.

[Stennick]

Yes Sab is very open about his likes and dislikes, if he points something out usually he is very annoyed with it. He's not the type to sugar coat something so I'm quite sure he was very annoyed with Hyde but thats got nothing to do with me.

[djthefunkchris]

Also..yes he did. sabataged is pretty open about his criticism.

Yes Sab is very open about his likes and dislikes, if he points something out usually he is very annoyed with it. He's not the type to sugar coat something so I'm quite sure he was very annoyed with Hyde but thats got nothing to do with me.

It's too bad. I personally do not enjoy TNA like I do WWE, but I don't mind Hyde's comments for the most part. I might josh or joke around with him once in a while, but I'm comfortable enough to know that Hyde is not so into TNA as to post something just to annoy another person. He's a fan of TNA, and he's going to come from that viewpoint. I'm going to come from a more objectional viewpoint in my mind, but I'm also a WWE fan, not a TNA fan, so I will not be as objective as say someone that can't stand either, or loves them both.

[ampulator]

What a 2.8? Even I can't see that happening. Heck, getting below a 3.0 hadn't happen in a while. The PPV wasn't bad, and neither was RAW. Man... there goes Bryan Danielson's and Randy Orton's title reigns... *sigh*

[FINisher]

Holy hell Kane is awesome. I've dropped watching WWE a year ago or so but now my interest has come back because of the Kane - 'Taker storyline. Kane explaining why he attacked Taker, that long 10min promo is one of the best promos ever in the WWE history. Seriously, awesome work from Kane.

Kane and 'Taker were the two reasons I started watching wrestling back in the late 90's and I simply love them still and this storyline is just so awesome for a fan of theirs..

[UkWrestleFan]

Ya, I love the Kane & 'Taker storyline. Also glad Kane is getting a decent run with the top belt. It's also pretty great that...Paul Bearer is involved in the story.(Highlight to read)

[crownsy]

What a 2.8? Even I can't see that happening. Heck, getting below a 3.0 hadn't happen in a while. The PPV wasn't bad, and neither was RAW. Man... there goes Bryan Danielson's and Randy Orton's title reigns... *sigh*

doubt thats happening, Vince will see if the ratings rebound next week when he wont have to go against two huge cable premiers (the event, DWTS with the palin spawn on it) and a Saints MNF game.

[SaySo]

PWInsider.com has confirmed that Christian suffered a torn pectoral muscle and is expected to be out six months following surgery this week. WWE will write Christian out this week on Smackdown during an angle with Alberto Del Rio.

[djthefunkchris]

Ya, I love the Kane & 'Taker storyline. Also glad Kane is getting a decent run with the top belt. It's also pretty great that...:eek:(Highlight to read)

/nod, that's all I been hearing about for three days now I think it's been. Don't know what they are going to do, should be pretty interesting though.

[StudioStu]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me. When Sheamus first won the title, I didn't like it and I didn't care for him too much. But now, I am a complete Sheamus mark. Am I alone?

[Wrestling Century]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me. When Sheamus first won the title, I didn't like it and I didn't care for him too much. But now, I am a complete Sheamus mark. Am I alone?

That's my thoughts exactly. I agree with you. I didn't buy Sheamus'(s?) first title reign, but I was marking out during his second world title reign.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I started liking him halfway through his first reign. By the time he lost at the EC, I was slightly gutted, even though in the long run I knew it was the right call xD

Also, interesting to see them pull out such big guns for short PPV-time hype.

[Johnny Fenoli]

I marked tonight...

[BHK1978]

From Wrestlezone.com:

Jorge "Giant" Gonzalez, a former member of the Aregentina Olympic basketball team in the 1988 Olympics, known to wrestling fans from his runs in both WWE and WCW from 1990-93, passed away today in a San Martin, Arentina hospital today.

Gonzalez had a run in WCW as EL Gigante, along with a run in WWE as Giant Gonzalez (including an early loss on The Undertaker's WrestleMania undefeated streak run) ,and stood a legitimate 7'6'' and weighing around the 400 pound mark.

Gonzalez was 44 years of age.

I actually did not mind him in WCW but I hated what they turned him into when he went to the WWF. It is sad to see that he has passed away.

[The Final Countdown]

Just wondering if anyone else is in the same boat as me. When Sheamus first won the title, I didn't like it and I didn't care for him too much. But now, I am a complete Sheamus mark. Am I alone?
I hated it when Sheamus won the title for the first time, and hated his title reign. By the time his second reign rolled around, I'd warmed up to him a bit. I still wouldn't really call myself a fan of his, but I don't mind him much anymore.

[BurningHamster]

I actually did not mind him in WCW but I hated what they turned him into when he went to the WWF. It is sad to see that he has passed away.

Damn that is sad. I liked El Gigante and the time he was teaming with Brian Pillman was a good time. I also liked his broken English interviews and dealings with Missy Hyatt trying to interview him in a pool and then El Gigante wanting to dance with her.

[ChrisKid]

PWInsider.com has confirmed that Christian suffered a torn pectoral muscle and is expected to be out six months following surgery this week. WWE will write Christian out this week on Smackdown during an angle with Alberto Del Rio.

damn

[Astil]

I have a somewhat illogical thought. Correct me fast.

Sheamus should end Taker's streak.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I have a somewhat illogical thought. Correct me fast.

Sheamus should end Taker's streak.

Nobody should. But if I had to pick it'd be him or Edge:D

[supershot]

Nobody should. But if I had to pick it'd be him or Edge:D

If Edge wins we riot! :mad:

If Sheamus wins.... we riot! :mad:

Edit: If anyone should it should be him. He already "took out" Triple H, so I could see him take out Takers streak.

of course I dont want to see it happen tho!

[StudioStu]

I often have the scary thought of Cena ending Taker's streak to turn heel. Part of me thinks it would be a terrible idea and the other part thinks it would be pretty awesome :)

[supershot]

I often have the scary thought of Cena ending Taker's streak to turn heel. Part of me thinks it would be a terrible idea and the other part thinks it would be pretty awesome :)

Well it would be a suspenseful match because you would think he would be the guy to do it so every near fall your thinking ohh ----!

But imo hes the last person who would need something like that. Would probably get him over as a heel tho ;)

[ampulator]

He doesn't need it to turn heel anyway. It's going to be very easy to turn him heel.

[ChrisKid]

Triple H vs Undertaker Hunter turns heel trying to get revenge for Shawns retirement

[TakerNGN74]

No one should ever end his streak because it would make Shawn Michaels look like crap because he couldn't get it done when he had two matches with him. Triple H already lost to Undertaker at Wrestlemania 17, and the only logical thing would be Cena, I do want to see Taker, Cena at Mania before Taker Retires but I am not sure if Cena should win because if he did he would be the biggest heel in the business.

[Self]

No one should ever end his streak because it would make Shawn Michaels look like crap because he couldn't get it done when he had two matches with him.

There are reasons not to end the streak. This is not one of them. Who cares if a retired wrestler "looks like crap"? Shawn Michaels is done. Besides, the goal would be to make the streak ender look super-human, not make everyone who failed look like chumps.

I'd end the streak. When Undertaker is done, ready to retire, I'd find the best heel option I could (preferably someone 'new' as opposed to Cena, Triple H, Edge etc) and give him the streak. Wouldn't even hesitate.

[BHK1978]

There are reasons not to end the streak. This is not one of them. Who cares if a retired wrestler "looks like crap"? Shawn Michaels is done. Besides, the goal would be to make the streak ender look super-human, not make everyone who failed look like chumps.

I'd end the streak. When Undertaker is done, ready to retire, I'd find the best heel option I could (preferably someone 'new' as opposed to Cena, Triple H, Edge etc) and give him the streak. Wouldn't even hesitate.

I agree, I mean Shawn Michaels is no longer making top dollar for them (people probably still buy his crap just not as much as if he were active), so who cares if it makes Shawn look bad.

And yes I have a feeling that HHH will be the one to snap the streak but I would rather see a young guy get the chance to do so.

[djthefunkchris]

There are reasons not to end the streak. This is not one of them. Who cares if a retired wrestler "looks like crap"? Shawn Michaels is done. Besides, the goal would be to make the streak ender look super-human, not make everyone who failed look like chumps.

I'd end the streak. When Undertaker is done, ready to retire, I'd find the best heel option I could (preferably someone 'new' as opposed to Cena, Triple H, Edge etc) and give him the streak. Wouldn't even hesitate.

I agree, I mean Shawn Michaels is no longer making top dollar for them (people probably still buy his crap just not as much as if he were active), so who cares if it makes Shawn look bad.

And yes I have a feeling that HHH will be the one to snap the streak but I would rather see a young guy get the chance to do so.

He probably still out sells/makes more for WWE then anyone not Main Event material though. I wouldn't want to sacrifise any of that just to make someone else look great, something you could do on ANY OTHER PPV.

[Self]

He probably still out sells/makes more for WWE then anyone not Main Event material though. I wouldn't want to sacrifise any of that just to make someone else look great, something you could do on ANY OTHER PPV.

A point I failed to make above, I don't think Sheamus (for example) beating Undertaker at Wrestlemania would have any impact on how much money Shawn Michaels bring in. None at all. Not one cent.

The Undertaker would lose value, sure. I wouldn't want to end the streak unless he was retiring immediately after. He'd lose on the way out though. Miz. Morrison. Sheamus. McIntyre. Sheffield. Someone. Undertaker's last few moments would be spent looking up at the lights, putting a new star (who has been strongly built for at least 6 months) over the top.

[juggaloninjalee]

If the streak had to end now in a credible way because Taker was retiring I would have Sheamus end it. No doubt about it because so far I feel like he needs a clean win over a big star on a big stage and this would be it. Then I could really get behind the Sheamus character.

[Hyde Hill]

Yep I said this before if they do decide to end the streak the only logical wrestler would be

A) Someone who will remain loyal and not cause too much troubles. ( See Lesnar, Lashley and early Michaels)

B) Someone who needs solidifying in the main event scene. Before I mentioned Punk, now Sheamus could be a good one.

On the other hand leaving the streak intact and putting Taker on a Hogan 2005-2007 type schedule could also make good dough.

Edit: Just to make clear I am not advocating pro ending the streak just if they do decide to end it who it should be.

[djthefunkchris]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

There is no reason to end the Wrestlemania streak. There is absolutely nothing anyone else can gain from it, that couldn't be gained by beating Taker in a regular PPV.

There is no reason to let Undertaker retire, anyways. He can become a "Force" to reckon with once or twice a year, and dissapear into the beyond whenever he is done with whatever evil he needs to right.

There is no reason Shaemus, Punk, or someone else couldn't beat him in a normal PPV, and not get the rub, desired result. IF a clean PPV win doesn't get someone over, ending a streak won't either.

All ending the streak does is tarnish the Undertaker's legacy, one that could be kept around, for even more years to come... even if he is pretty much retired. Just show up in October, Say "I've been watching you from the darkness, I am here to give you your dues. At Wrestlemania there will be a Casket Match...." and so on and so forth.

Undertaker isn't even 50 yet, he could easily get his body back in condition if he was on an annual or semi annual schedule.

EDIT: Right now, one of the draws to Wrestlemania is watching Undertaker "Defend" his streak. IF they end it, then they no longer have that as drawing power. I repeat, there is no reason to end it at all. However, I can come up with dozens of reasons NOT to end it.

[Fantabulous]

The only reason to see it end is when Undertaker calls it a day and decides it's time to retire. I say that because it could be used as a credible reason to write him out, given that he's been put in a vegetative state, splattered by Mark Henry or Khali'd and he's always come back for revenge; if they push the streak as meaning that much to him it would at least make sense that he came back from everything else but ending his streak is the one thing that deals him a mortal blow. It's the same reasoning why Flair had to threaten Melina to get Foley to say "I Quit" or why AJ had to go after Dreamer's eye to make him say "I Quit"; they'd both taken so much physical punishment in the past and never quit that it took something special to get them to give up.

As for Undertaker going part time, he's pretty much part time now and he's still in constant pain; not surprising given that he's needed a hip replacement for long time now. I think when Undertaker retires it's going to be for good because I think it'll only happen when he feels his body can no longer take it and he needs to get out while he can still have a decent quality of life after the surgeries he needs to fix himself up.

[Robtallica]

I see no reason why the streak should end tbh. granted it will give a huge short term moment boost for either punk/sheamus (picked due to the fact they have already been mentioned) but long term. it gives them nothing factoring in wwe's creative teams memory which seems to be about 6 months long

[supershot]

Yes I agree I dont want to see the streak come to an end and if it did it would leave a small mark on Takers legacy. It would hurt Taker more than it helps the streak ender because the momentum wont last forever.

I dont want to see it end but if it HAD to come to and end I would pick Sheamus. It fits his character.

[Fantabulous]

I don't really want it to end, either. I mean, I know why it can make sense for it to end, to give a heel on the cusp of greatness that one last push to superstardom, but I have no faith at all it would get followed up on.

[PeterHilton]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.

There is no reason to end the Wrestlemania streak. There is absolutely nothing anyone else can gain from it, that couldn't be gained by beating Taker in a regular PPV.

There is no reason to let Undertaker retire, anyways. He can become a "Force" to reckon with once or twice a year, and dissapear into the beyond whenever he is done with whatever evil he needs to right.

There is no reason Shaemus, Punk, or someone else couldn't beat him in a normal PPV, and not get the rub, desired result. IF a clean PPV win doesn't get someone over, ending a streak won't either.

All ending the streak does is tarnish the Undertaker's legacy, one that could be kept around, for even more years to come... even if he is pretty much retired. Just show up in October, Say "I've been watching you from the darkness, I am here to give you your dues. At Wrestlemania there will be a Casket Match...." and so on and so forth.

Undertaker isn't even 50 yet, he could easily get his body back in condition if he was on an annual or semi annual schedule.

EDIT: Right now, one of the draws to Wrestlemania is watching Undertaker "Defend" his streak. IF they end it, then they no longer have that as drawing power. I repeat, there is no reason to end it at all. However, I can come up with dozens of reasons NOT to end it.

The idea that beating Undertaker at a regular PPV would be the same as beating him at WM and ending the streak is patently ridiculous

If you want Taker to retire with the streak in tact, fine. But your comparison is bordering on the stupid.

Undertaker has been beaten on PPVs probably hundreds of times

But the guy who ended the streak? If done correctly, that would absolutely cement a guy's legacy for years to come.

[TracyBrooksFan]

Any one catch on RAW that Cole and Lawler plugged Foley's Countdown to Lockdown book.

[Linsolv]

You know what you could do? Have Sheamus win 2-3 WMs in a row himself (since he's currently 1-0 in WM) and then have them build, essentially, a new streak.

EDIT: There is one thing that has been bothering me. The Labell lock has been pushed as this incredible, unescapable lock. Why does Daniel Bryan even go for pins? They should have that submissions as something that is a threat every time his opponent touches canvas.

[supershot]

You know what you could do? Have Sheamus win 2-3 WMs in a row himself (since he's currently 1-0 in WM) and then have them build, essentially, a new streak.

EDIT: There is one thing that has been bothering me. The Labell lock has been pushed as this incredible, unescapable lock. Why does Daniel Bryan even go for pins? They should have that submissions as something that is a threat every time his opponent touches canvas.

I could have swore Triple H beat him but I have horrible memory so ill take your word for it.

Edit: The RAW GM busted Edge open!!

[Tha Black Phenom]

Edge vs. Laptop at Hell in a Cell. You heard it here first.


EDIT: There is one thing that has been bothering me. The Labell lock has been pushed as this incredible, unescapable lock. Why does Daniel Bryan even go for pins? They should have that submissions as something that is a threat every time his opponent touches canvas.

There could be reasons for that. Kayfabe-wise, maybe scoring a pin is inherently easier than locking in a submission that once enclenched, the opponent will try to get out of it as a reflex.

If anything, locking on your signature submission early on sounds pretty needless and will make the user waste his stamina for nothing.

[Slim Jim]

Edge vs. Laptop at Hell in a Cell. You heard it here first.

I didn't :p

[jwt13]

Raw is pure wrestlecrap nowadays a talking computer as the GM and the having a wrestler beat up a talking computer smh :rolleyes:

[Tha Black Phenom]

I didn't :p

Yeah, well. :p

I cringed at the talking laptop but I'm glad it was a one-time thing. They should just get it over with already, but I guess they're still running around like rats trying to find the perfect man.

[Linsolv]

I could have swore Triple H beat him but I have horrible memory so ill take your word for it.

Edit: The RAW GM busted Edge open!!

You're right, I'm sorry. He got trips back later and that's what stuck in my head. My bad!

[Hulkamaniac85]

Any ideas who you think is the GM? Im holding out for hope that its someone super cool. Like the Million Dollar Man or Roddy Piper. A legend is clearly what i want. We'll see though, they definitely need to get the reveal over with though, it's getting dumber and dumber by the week.

[jwt13]

Any ideas who you think is the GM? Im holding out for hope that its someone super cool. Like the Million Dollar Man or Roddy Piper. A legend is clearly what i want. We'll see though, they definitely need to get the reveal over with though, it's getting dumber and dumber by the week.

Lita that's why it has it out for edge :)

[Hulkamaniac85]

Hahaha, that would be funny. Very disappointing, but quite funny.

What the heck, commercial break during a Jericho promo????? you have to be kidding me!

[jwt13]

I would like it to be steph,VKM, or Hbk but the iron sheik would be an epic GM if u ask me

[Hulkamaniac85]

How about Randy Savage??? Maybe thats why the relationship seems to be warming up with him and the WWE? haha yea thats very wishful thinking, but yea that would be awesome

[crownsy]

Hahaha, that would be funny. Very disappointing, but quite funny.

What the heck, commercial break during a Jericho promo????? you have to be kidding me!

It's a nod to this promo, one of his best ever, which i assume he wanted to get in on his last night with the company for the moment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUcTHmZ9luY

[supershot]

You're right, I'm sorry. He got trips back later and that's what stuck in my head. My bad!

Its cool. He's constantly talking about how he took out Triple H so I can see the mix up.

[Hulkamaniac85]

Hahaha oh yea i remember that promo. Good stuff, went over my head til you pointed it out, thanks!

[djthefunkchris]

The idea that beating Undertaker at a regular PPV would be the same as beating him at WM and ending the streak is patently ridiculous

If you want Taker to retire with the streak in tact, fine. But your comparison is bordering on the stupid.

Undertaker has been beaten on PPVs probably hundreds of times

But the guy who ended the streak? If done correctly, that would absolutely cement a guy's legacy for years to come.

Undertaker losing clean, as I said, would put someone over. If it doesn't, then ending the streak isn't going to make a difference either, becuase of the Bolded "IF".

If it's done right, it's going to be someone that people would actually find believable, or somewhat in the same class of Undertaker... someone like HBK, HHH, Cena, etc. might get something from it. Someone like Shaemus, at this point in his carreer, might just get a riot from it, or worse.... people never except him and his contract never gets resigned.

In other words, I don't see anyone actually benefitting, that isn't already at that calibre. I don't think it's going to "Solidify" anyone going from UM to ME (tew terms), and I don't think people realise the chance of negativity that it could do to one's carreer.

[Linsolv]

I'm sorry DJ but I really have to disagree about that last point. Assuming that you don't have Kevin Nash beat him with a cattle prod, how could ending the streak make Undertaker's legacy suddenly go away? I mean Shawn Michaels failed twice, and his legacy is "Mr Wreslemania" and really getting better for WM season. Yet somehow two clean losses did nothing to make him any less of a legend.

I mean, yeah. There are some ways you can ruin it. Fingerpoke of doom would make the whole streak meaningless. Cheating so horrible that it negates either workers' skill (cattle prod, for instance) would probably be viewed as a meaningless ending. But if you had a nice feud leading in and then a clean (or even mostly-clean) finish at WM would basically create about 6 months of rocket fuel. Would it cement their career? No, probably not. But it's a lot easier to build a structure around someone to keep them in superstardom than it is to create a superstar without that "rocket fuel," however temporary it might be.

On the other hand, plenty of people have beaten Undertaker clean in PPVs other than WM and how many of those losses mattered outside the storyline?

[Stennick]

Linslov who has beaten the Undertaker clean on pay per view?

[Tha Black Phenom]

Hmmm... I recall Khali beating him back in 2005, as the mark of the beginning of his monster push. Also Batista, hitting two Batista Bombs to pin him at Cyber Sunday 07, I think.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm sorry DJ but I really have to disagree about that last point. Assuming that you don't have Kevin Nash beat him with a cattle prod, how could ending the streak make Undertaker's legacy suddenly go away? I mean Shawn Michaels failed twice, and his legacy is "Mr Wreslemania" and really getting better for WM season. Yet somehow two clean losses did nothing to make him any less of a legend.

I mean, yeah. There are some ways you can ruin it. Fingerpoke of doom would make the whole streak meaningless. Cheating so horrible that it negates either workers' skill (cattle prod, for instance) would probably be viewed as a meaningless ending. But if you had a nice feud leading in and then a clean (or even mostly-clean) finish at WM would basically create about 6 months of rocket fuel. Would it cement their career? No, probably not. But it's a lot easier to build a structure around someone to keep them in superstardom than it is to create a superstar without that "rocket fuel," however temporary it might be.

On the other hand, plenty of people have beaten Undertaker clean in PPVs other than WM and how many of those losses mattered outside the storyline?
I meantioned HBK...someone like HBK, HHH, Cena, etc. might get something from it. It, meaning ending Undertaker's streak.

And..
Linslov who has beaten the Undertaker clean on pay per view?

This.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Regardless, I agree generally that ending the streak isn't as much needed - looking at my two given examples, so far it still looks like a clean decision over Taker at a PPV can be a relatively fresh boost for any up-and-comer.

Someone ending the streak would probably cement their legacy, but on a much darker note(no pun intended). And I kinda feel as if following from that, should it happen whoever gets the rub will be almost.. "forced" towards stardom as they can't really drop that nugget. It kind of becomes like a binding contract. Of course, there's no problems if the worker in question is destined to be the future of the company, but that's just it, he has to be really.. locked in and.. worth it. Sheamus is one of those 'next big things' to blossom, yet I'm not even sure if I'd nod him to do it. Is he the best suited guy right now for consideration, however? Maybe so.

[Stennick]

Yeah I was more or less asking who has beaten The Undertaker that wasn't already a multiple time world champion. Batista in 07 had already main evented Wrestlemania.

Khali is a good example of someone that has beaten Taker and I'll give them that. Although they had Khali go over Taker can you imagine him beating him for the streak? What has Khali done SINCE his Taker feud? Nothing is he even on the show anymore?

This is the danger you run into. Lashley, Lesnar, Khali, heck even Rob Van Dam they gave him the ECW Title, the WWE Title, a huge push and then look busted for pot and moved down the card.

So many guys have been pushed throughout wrestling's history as unstoppable. WCW did the same thing with Wrath they built up a winning streak and I felt they were clearly headed towards Wrath vs. Goldberg at Starrcade and they dropped the ball with that.

Wrestling has so many guys flake out because its just the nature of the business. Why were the Gagnes always in the main event? Because they weren't going anywhere. Same with Lawler in Memphis, Von Erichs, Harts, Triple H. You push the guys you know absolutely are not going anywhere.

As I have said a million times there is no such thing as someone "needing" a push. Sheamous went from beating up Jamie Knoble to winning the World Championship in a months time. There was no build up, there was no pushing him up the card.

Everyone has got to stop thinking about what happens on the internet and reality. On the internet people hated him and the choice because he was still too green, wasn't built up enough etc. In reality he got a massive reaction of boos after winning and the WWE saw no drop off in business what so ever ratings or pay per view buy wise with him as their flagship champion.

Its not 1997 anymore and wrestling doesn't live and die by one wrestler being in or out of the title picture. In 1997 if either company had Sheamus win their title like that it would have caused a back lash but when you're the only BRAND in town there is no backlash. People will watch no matter what you do and they have proven that.

My point is that there is no business to be made from ending it. Sheamus ending it isn't going to make him somehow generate more pay per view buys, its not going to sell t shirts (although Taker's 19-0 or whatever it shirts sure would sell). So many people constantly come in here talking about a wrestler needs this or that to be "at the next level" and in our eyes yes thats the case because thats what we like. We like to see a guy making his way up the card and at each level of the card we like to see some defining moment that brings him up to the next level. A title win (HBK WM 12) , a memorable feud (Foley vs. Triple H), some iconic moment (Austin stunnering McMahon).

The sad truth is Sheamus and others have proven that if somebody who has never wreslted a day in the WWE came in and won the WWE Championship in their debut match business would not change, there would be no negative reaction to it outside of whatever the WWE wanted their to be.

Like or not John Cena doesn't turn heel, they don't have the attitude era and a million other things the internet wants they don't happen because there is no business reason to do them. Their making plenty of money doing things the way their doing them and ultimately when people grow tired of their product and stop making them mountains of money they will change but until they put the title on a guy and people change the channel and stop buying ppvs, or until people get tired of PG WWE and change the channel nothing is and nothing should change.

Its crazy to say "this guy doing what someone has never done in the history of wrestling is a good idea" when its not needed. Its the exact same theory as the John Cena heel turn. "He needs to turn heel" Why? Their making piles of money for everyone including the heels he's facing with him as a face. Why risk all that for nothing? Just like why risk screwing something up.

If its not broke don't fix it.

[Linsolv]

Gimme a minute...

I thought someone said it earlier to be honest so I really didn't expect to be called on that. I can find a few notable losses that don't clarify how it ended (Hogan in 91, Angle in 06, Big Show in 08, Trips in 09 [Elimination Chamber], Kane last month).

For Hogan, he was already a star in 91.
Angle did indeed enjoy great success, though the win over Taker was near the end of his WWE run.
Show was on comedy duty for a while last year, which may or may not speak to how much the win gave him.
Trips was already a big star when he got Taker to do the job.
Kane is still in that storyline, so we have yet to see how much it'll matter after they settle it.

[Stennick]

Yeah all of those names were former World Champions by the time Taker did a job to them. The only guy in recent memory that I can think of that Taker jobbed to clean was Khali.

[Fantabulous]

Even rarer are Undertaker's clean losses on TV.

[Slim Jim]

How often does Taker even wrestle on TV?

Take any top WWE face and count clean PPV losses. It isn't a Taker thing; might stand out more since he misses just about half the PPVs a year. Also, despite them not being "clean" losses, his programs with Edge, Orton and JBL did a lot for them. JBL picked up a string of wins over him, in fact, and they were fitting for his cowardly cunning heel character so probably did more for establishing him than a clean victory would have.

Guys that aren't former champions rarely get the chance to even feud with Undertaker because as a special attraction, he normally gets paired with bigger names... and that's probably down to them wanting to feud with him because of him being him. He's the guy that puts people over the top, from just being a part of the main event to being the Main Event.

[Hulkamaniac85]

For me, someone has to end the streak. Idk who it will be, i keep going back and forth on it, between someone who is extremely established, and someone who is rising up the ranks, but for me it has to be done. There's nothing about Undertaker's legacy (the streak in this case) that is more sacred than anyone else's in the business (not that it would do any harm for the Undertaker's legacy as a whole to lose anyways, I think it would actually only enhance it, especially if say he fought Cena, loss clean to the face of the WWE, and then went out with a show of respect, again, just one idea, im not endorsing that).

We saw HBK do the job to Undertaker @ Wrestlemania, an event the man was a LEGEND at, we've seen Hogan do the job at Wrestlemania (and you have to admit, without Hogan there probably wouldn't be a Wrestlemania to watch, cause he wouldn't have been around to Main Event the first 9 of them! Along with a lot of other people of course) But yeah, it's always been that nothing is sacred when it comes to wrestling. Especially wins and losses.

Undertaker losing at Wrestlemania can be 1 of 2 things. A) Passing of the torch to whoever the WWE wants to push as it's next MEGA STAR or B) A good clean fight with an established star/legend (The Rock would be the top pick for me, could you imagine a match between them, with The Rock getting the win to end the streak??! EPIC!) Now that won't ever happen because he isn't coming back to the WWE, and they won't use the streak to put over someone who isn't sticking around, but the one time excitement would be almost unparalleled in wrestling history I would think.

Another way i kind of look at it (sorry I am rambling) but to me it would be more about putting over WRESTLEMANIA, than putting over whoever beats him. I mean for the last 10-14 years you've been able to mark the Undertaker down for an auto win at the event, which kind of takes away from the notion, this is the superbowl of wrestling, anything can happen...Idk, just my 2 cents. Haha I am sure I am in the minority on the subject. Good discussion though!

[djthefunkchris]

How often does Taker even wrestle on TV?

Take any top WWE face and count clean PPV losses. It isn't a Taker thing; might stand out more since he misses just about half the PPVs a year. Also, despite them not being "clean" losses, his programs with Edge, Orton and JBL did a lot for them. JBL picked up a string of wins over him, in fact, and they were fitting for his cowardly cunning heel character so probably did more for establishing him than a clean victory would have.

Guys that aren't former champions rarely get the chance to even feud with Undertaker because as a special attraction, he normally gets paired with bigger names... and that's probably down to them wanting to feud with him because of him being him. He's the guy that puts people over the top, from just being a part of the main event to being the Main Event.

Coming full circle to the point I was trying to make earlier that Peter called me on. I DO dissagree with him on this matter, but I honestly can't remember dissagreeing with him on this level ever before, lol. I ussually agree fully, and have not posted in the past on things he brought up that was exactly what I wanted to bring up (and more then likely not as elequantly as he puts things).

In my opinion, Feuding and WINNING CLEAN in any PPV with Undertaker, will enhance a character IF done properly. However, if you take the Miz and put him up against Undertaker and he beats the "Streak", I really don't see anyone taking it seriously. I wouldn't... I would say, "Wow, I like Miz and all, but not like that." It's just way too early for anyone that would potentially gain anything great from it... This is an opinion though, they could do this exact thing and propel the Miz into Superstardom selling out PPV's on his name alone... I in no way can see the future. My opinion is based on what I believe though, and I would actually bet real money that it just wouldn't work out half as good as a solid fued with the same result, that didn't end the streak (with the Miz, Shaemus, or any other UpperMid/almost Main Eventer).

I don't even see Kane getting anything out of this really. I always felt that Kane could take over as soon as Undertaker retired anyways. I've always felt that they use him to get other's over, and as a standby Main Event "Just in Case" as he could step right in without a problem and beat the Heck out of just about anyone, if not anyone on the card, and people wouldn't go "No way", they wouldn't have a problem with it at all, obviously (as we are seeing now).

Miz, Morrison, Sheamus, MVP, etc... these are all future stars that can evolve naturally by getting over people that aren't as "Legendary". People like Punk, Jericho, etc.. that have been dabbling outside of the Main Event (Jericho untill recently), are just as able to fill in the Main Event scene. Punk's not quite at Jericho level in ability to Draw, but I believe he will get there, and is quite impressive in much the same way as Jericho in every other way.

You can't rely on someone that doesn't "Draw" on "Drawing" because they killed a legend... One match isn't going to change things that drastically, and can potentially just tick off alot of people, making him even less of a draw.

[Stennick]

FThere's nothing about Undertaker's legacy (the streak in this case) that is more sacred than anyone else's in the business (not that it would do any harm for the Undertaker's legacy as a whole to lose anyways, I think it would actually only enhance it, especially if say he fought Cena, loss clean to the face of the WWE, and then went out with a show of respect, again, just one idea, im not endorsing that).

Nobody in wrestling has anything that comes close to comparing to being undefeated an an event for nearly two decades worth of matches now. Name me one "legacy" that even remotely compares to Taker's Mania streak. Name me one thing that the WWE has hyped and created more of a mythical aura around than this streak.

We saw HBK do the job to Undertaker @ Wrestlemania, an event the man was a LEGEND at

Shawn became a legend at this even for putting on the best show of the night. I hate to break it to you but everyone seems to have beaten Shawn at Wrestlemania. Shawn lost to the Twin Towers at V, to the Orient Express at VI, Tatanka beat him at IX, Diesel beat him at X and XI, Austin beat him at 14, he lost to Benoit at XX, he lost to Kurt Angle at XXI, he lost to Cena at 23 and then lost to Taker twice. So He's lost at NINE Wrestlemania's and only won at what FOUR wrestlemania's? When he refers to himself as Mr. Wrestlemania its the fact that he puts on the best match of the night. So yes Shawn jobs all the time at Wrestlemania thats got nothing to do with anything.

The only time Hogan has been pinned at Wrestlemania is by The Rock at X8 who just happened to be the biggest wrestler on the planet at the time with a summer blockbuster set to hit theaters later that summer.

Tons of things are sacred when it comes to pro wrestling. Ric Flair was NWA Champion constantly. He lost the title to Ronnie Garvin just so he could win it back at Starrcade. You can count on one hand how many times Hulk Hogan lost period in a span of about ten years.

Undertaker losing at Wrestlemania can be 1 of 2 things. A) Passing of the torch to whoever the WWE wants to push as it's next MEGA STAR or B) A good clean fight with an established star/legend (The Rock would be the top pick for me, could you imagine a match between them, with The Rock getting the win to end the streak??! EPIC!) Now that won't ever happen because he isn't coming back to the WWE, and they won't use the streak to put over someone who isn't sticking around, but the one time excitement would be almost unparalleled in wrestling history I would think.

Yeah The Rock coming back would be great but again thats sort of a pointless statement since you yourself just said that would be a very pointless thing to do. Now The Rock coming back and jobbing to Taker at Mania would do huge business for the WWE although thats not happening.

Another way i kind of look at it (sorry I am rambling) but to me it would be more about putting over WRESTLEMANIA, than putting over whoever beats him. I mean for the last 10-14 years you've been able to mark the Undertaker down for an auto win at the event, which kind of takes away from the notion, this is the superbowl of wrestling, anything can happen...Idk, just my 2 cents. Haha I am sure I am in the minority on the subject. Good discussion though!

I get that its just your opinion but my stance is who do you employ with this power of being the only man to beat The Undertaker at Wrestlemania? Brock Lesnar, Bobby Lashley, Mr. Anderson, and the list goes on of guys that were supposed to be the future of pro wrestling they were in line for the biggest pushes of their careers and ALL of them in one form or another screwed it all up. How can you give somebody something as big as Taker's streak and KNOW their going to stick around? You can't. Its not like putting the World Title on them. You do that, they want to leave, you job them out horribly the next night and in a year their a footnote in history. Giving someone's Taker's streak means their going to be talked about every year until the end of the time at Wrestlemania. It means that everytime the Undertaker is brought up their name could be brought up. Who do you trust with something like that? The answer nobody because its not needed. If the WWE's business depended on making somebody new a superstar and giving them the Taker's streak was that way then fine but the truth is it doesn't and it won't so giving someone something that will be talked about throughout the history of this company is absurd and shouldn't happen.

Again I say Undertaker's 19-0 shirts at Wrestlemania or whatever it would be would move more merchandise and make more money for the company than you can imagine. This isn't the Superbowl and this isn't the UFC, we want to feel like anything CAN happen but the truth is anything SHOULDN'T happen. Taka could have beaten Triple H on Raw ten years ago for the WWE World Title because anything can happen it doesn't mean it should happen.

The one thing the WWE has over sports in general is the feeling of unpredictability while still having complete control over the outcome. Its the best of both worlds and so "anything can happen" should be displayed in countless other ways and it is but it shouldn't be displayed just for the sake of displaying it.

[Basmat01]

Although I rather the Taker not lose the streak.

If he WAS to lose it you would think it would be to someone that would lead the WWE for the next 10 years or so. Not lose it to someone who could not be around in a year or 2. the WWE has put alot of effort into guys that got them no-where

Had Brock Lesnar stayed he would of taken the streak.

[wilts]

Personally I think for the sake of business, Taker has to retire after losing his streak. Once he is retired the streak does no good for business, but having him lose it will give a big boost to whoever takes it, no doubt about that, and here is what I would do with it.

Building up to Mania I would have Miz get into a bitter feud with John Morrisson (sp?), and I mean a bitter feud. So much so that Miz never has the opportunity, or even forgets to cash in the MITB contract.

At the start of Mania I would have the announce team really hyping the fact that Miz has not cashed in the MITB contract, and now can not do so. Have Miz come down to ringside as they are talking about it, make it seem impromptu, then have him rant and rave about how he has the right to cash in the contract.

VKM or someone then comes out, tells Miz that the contract is now null and void.

Miz then has a brutal match with JM, which he wins but is badly injured.

Miz then jumps one of the MITB participants on the way to the ring and takes their place, ala Edge and Kofi in the Elimination Chamber.

By some miracle the Miz wins MITB for the second year running.

The main event for the night would be Taker vs someone, preferably Kane but I'm not sure if the story will last that long. Taker goes into the match as champion, so the hype from Kane is that he will win the title and end his brothers streak. Also have Taker say that if he loses his streak then he will retire. Have the match go back and forth, with Taker eventually winning.

As Taker is celebrating the Miz attacks, and gets the pin.

Ding ding ding, we have a new champion, and Miz has ended Takers streak.

The gains from this;
-Miz gets elevated and is champ. By default JM also ends up in a main event feud over the title due to their existing feud continuing. Surely the IWC would mark out for this...

-We get all the build going into Mania of Taker possibly losing the title, the streak and his career. This could be an epic build with Taker vs Kane.

-Miz now gets to brag that he won 3 matches in one night at Mania, he is the champ, he ended the streak and ended Takers career. Talk about a feather in the cap...

-Forgive me if I am wrong, but is Miz not "undefeated" at Mania, with a streak of 1-0? Have him claim Takers streak and start saying that he is 20-0 (or whatever it is that Taker is), each year he then builds on that with typical heelish cheating. This could then build to another huge match years down the line.

Personally I think this could put Miz over as the No.1 heel in the 'E.

That's about it, not sure if it makes too much sense, but it does in my head....

EDIT: I think I have made a bit of a boo-boo. Miz won MITB at the MITB PPV, didn't he? So the year wouldn't have expired by the time Mania comes around...bugger.

[UkWrestleFan]

Personally I think for the sake of business, Taker has to retire after losing his streak. Once he is retired the streak does no good for business, but having him lose it will give a big boost to whoever takes it, no doubt about that, and here is what I would do with it.

Building up to Mania I would have Miz get into a bitter feud with John Morrisson (sp?), and I mean a bitter feud. So much so that Miz never has the opportunity, or even forgets to cash in the MITB contract.

At the start of Mania I would have the announce team really hyping the fact that Miz has not cashed in the MITB contract, and now can not do so. Have Miz come down to ringside as they are talking about it, make it seem impromptu, then have him rant and rave about how he has the right to cash in the contract.

VKM or someone then comes out, tells Miz that the contract is now null and void.

Miz then has a brutal match with JM, which he wins but is badly injured.

Miz then jumps one of the MITB participants on the way to the ring and takes their place, ala Edge and Kofi in the Elimination Chamber.

By some miracle the Miz wins MITB for the second year running.

The main event for the night would be Taker vs someone, preferably Kane but I'm not sure if the story will last that long. Taker goes into the match as champion, so the hype from Kane is that he will win the title and end his brothers streak. Also have Taker say that if he loses his streak then he will retire. Have the match go back and forth, with Taker eventually winning.

As Taker is celebrating the Miz attacks, and gets the pin.

Ding ding ding, we have a new champion, and Miz has ended Takers streak.

The gains from this;
-Miz gets elevated and is champ. By default JM also ends up in a main event feud over the title due to their existing feud continuing. Surely the IWC would mark out for this...

-We get all the build going into Mania of Taker possibly losing the title, the streak and his career. This could be an epic build with Taker vs Kane.

-Miz now gets to brag that he won 3 matches in one night at Mania, he is the champ, he ended the streak and ended Takers career. Talk about a feather in the cap...

-Forgive me if I am wrong, but is Miz not "undefeated" at Mania, with a streak of 1-0? Have him claim Takers streak and start saying that he is 20-0 (or whatever it is that Taker is), each year he then builds on that with typical heelish cheating. This could then build to another huge match years down the line.

Personally I think this could put Miz over as the No.1 heel in the 'E.

That's about it, not sure if it makes too much sense, but it does in my head....

Sounds good. My only gripe with that would be why Miz would get put in the match after attacking somebody? Didn't Edge only get put in as replacement thanks to Vickie Guerrero being GM or something? Of course, it's good to suspend your belief while watching wrestling but it really wouldn't sit well with me.

Perhaps have Vince sucking upto Vince in the run up to 'Mania? Then, Miz finds out his MiTB contract is null and void. Vince sympathizes but says he can't do anything about it, but, he says he has a plan. The plan is to have Miz jump somebody in the MiTB match and injure them. Vince comes out before the match telling everybody that *insert name* is injured but he has a replacement...The Miz. Then continue on with your way of thinking :D

[MrOnu]

All this arguing makes me think I'm in a tiny minority who doesn't care about Taker's streak. It has the same effect on me as all those mentions of "WWE Universe", just another marketing tool without any impact on the product.

Anyway, if someone has to beat Taker at Wrestlemania, it has to be the Miz, 'cause you know, he's awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwesome ;)

[1234]

Just going to put my idea out about how the streak could "end".

Undertaker should be one of the final two in the Royal Rumble, losing to someone like Cena who will help sell Wrestlemania. After Cena chooses who he wants to face, and Undertaker begins his pursuit to get a shot at the other champion at Wrestlemania (whoever this is should be someone that has the potential to be a star for multiple years, for the example I will use Sheamus). Sheamus is given the choice out of 3 people for who he will face at 'Mania, Undertaker and 2 other main eventers.

The contenders agree to a match where the winner gets to face Sheamus at Wrestlemania. Undertaker wins the match, but Sheamus tells Taker that he will only get a shot if he is willing to put his career on the line first (Meaning that Undertaker has to beat Sheamus in a match with his career on the line, and then another match for the title, but if Sheamus wins match 1 Undertaker would retire. I feel this would be a good stipulation and add to the suspense about whether the streak will end.). Undertaker agrees.

At Wrestlemania after a long hard fought battle Undertaker gets the win. However before the match restarts someone runs down to the ring and attacks 'Taker (Thinking back on it, I would replace Sheamus with DiBiase, and have Sheamus be the attacker). Due to Undertaker being beat down by DiBiase & Sheamus, the referee refuses to start the second match, but Sheamus performs a mock count while DiBiase pins him.

This allows Takers streak to remain intact, however puts 2 people over due to the fact they unofficialy ended the streak (which of course they will claim that they really ended the streak).

This puts 2 people over the top and makes them stars for the future, while allowing Taker to remain strong and gives the WWE a hot storyline to carry forward.

[Hyde Hill]

Even rarer are Undertaker's clean losses on TV.

I can remember Kozlov two years ago. Him not performing well in that match was the start of his depush I think.

[Linsolv]

I'd have to agree (tangentially) with Stennick on one point. Now that I've slept on it, there's no way Miz or whoever your preference of young up-and-comer could take the streak this year. I think if WWE decided to put a real strong, consistent push behind a Miz or Sheamus for the next 15 months, then you might be able to get a convincing result out of it.

I don't really like wilts's idea in that it would take WM, an event that is bigger than any one person on it, and make it "Night of Miz." That, to me, would cheapen it.

[Stennick]

I wonder how many ladies have felt cheapened after a "Night of Miz" aye oh I'll be here all week ladies and gentlemen don't forget to tip your waitress.

[Linsolv]

I'm sorry, Stennick, are you implying that the Miz wouldn't leave ladies feeling AAAAAAWWWWWWESOOOOOOOME?

[Stennick]

Well he's no Shaman of Sexy thats for sure :D

[djthefunkchris]

Well he's no Shaman of Sexy thats for sure :D

No, he's a "Chick Magnet"!

[Hyde Hill]

No, he's a "Chick Magnet"!

And a Punk.

(obscure reference maybe but one of the theories about CM is that it originally stood for Chick Magnet.)

[JTandSilentBob]

If I was going to have anyone take away Undertaker's streak it would be the Miz.

I'd have Kane go over in his feud with Taker, but not decisively. Have the Undertaker win the Royal Rumble and face Raw's Champion(Either Orton or Cena) at Wrestlemania. After winning an exhausting match with Orton or Cena(maybe even a triple threat match). Miz cashes in MITB and defeats Undertaker, but not without struggle. That way the Undertaker gets beat, and Miz becomes a star. People already hate him, why not make them hate him more.

I also have a plan for Unifying the World Championships which involves Miz winning Royal Rumble, facing Smackdowns champ, then cashing in on Raw champ after he defends.

I'm not even a Miz fan. Just offering solutions to some possible Wrestlemania match-ups.

[Robtallica]

If I was going to have anyone take away Undertaker's streak it would be the Miz.

I'd have Kane go over in his feud with Taker, but not decisively. Have the Undertaker win the Royal Rumble and face Raw's Champion(Either Orton or Cena) at Wrestlemania. After winning an exhausting match with Orton or Cena(maybe even a triple threat match). Miz cashes in MITB and defeats Undertaker, but not without struggle. That way the Undertaker gets beat, and Miz becomes a star. People already hate him, why not make them hate him more.

I also have a plan for Unifying the World Championships which involves Miz winning Royal Rumble, facing Smackdowns champ, then cashing in on Raw champ after he defends.

I'm not even a Miz fan. Just offering solutions to some possible Wrestlemania match-ups.

i would hate for that too happen. i dont really want the streak to end and i cant stand the miz personaly. if they want miz to be the one to end it then fine but cashing in and doing it like that takes away just about everything he would gain by beat taker at mania and wastes years of building up the win streak.

[LoNdOn]

Just going to put my idea out about how the streak could "end".

Undertaker should be one of the final two in the Royal Rumble, losing to someone like Cena who will help sell Wrestlemania. After Cena chooses who he wants to face, and Undertaker begins his pursuit to get a shot at the other champion at Wrestlemania (whoever this is should be someone that has the potential to be a star for multiple years, for the example I will use Sheamus). Sheamus is given the choice out of 3 people for who he will face at 'Mania, Undertaker and 2 other main eventers.

The contenders agree to a match where the winner gets to face Sheamus at Wrestlemania. Undertaker wins the match, but Sheamus tells Taker that he will only get a shot if he is willing to put his career on the line first (Meaning that Undertaker has to beat Sheamus in a match with his career on the line, and then another match for the title, but if Sheamus wins match 1 Undertaker would retire. I feel this would be a good stipulation and add to the suspense about whether the streak will end.). Undertaker agrees.

At Wrestlemania after a long hard fought battle Undertaker gets the win. However before the match restarts someone runs down to the ring and attacks 'Taker (Thinking back on it, I would replace Sheamus with DiBiase, and have Sheamus be the attacker). Due to Undertaker being beat down by DiBiase & Sheamus, the referee refuses to start the second match, but Sheamus performs a mock count while DiBiase pins him.

This allows Takers streak to remain intact, however puts 2 people over due to the fact they unofficialy ended the streak (which of course they will claim that they really ended the streak).

This puts 2 people over the top and makes them stars for the future, while allowing Taker to remain strong and gives the WWE a hot storyline to carry forward.

Could you imagine the fan backlash if they saw that kind of thing actually happen though?

[pauls07]

does taker really need to lose at mainia? its what his legecy will be, he has never had that defining title run, 20 and 0 will be what he will be remembered for. just my worthless 2 cents lol

[Linsolv]

Have we established that he's leaving next year?

EDIT: Because I think I'm the first person to have suggested ending it but not right now. Everyone seems to be saying that they need to end it this year. Or not ending it ever.

[Robtallica]

i dont think so. this topic seem to come up alot tho

[Candyman]

And a Punk.

(obscure reference maybe but one of the theories about CM is that it originally stood for Chick Magnet.)

And the only true one, to boot.

[djthefunkchris]

i dont think so. this topic seem to come up alot tho

At least once a year, lol.

[sabataged]

So I am doing some youtube'n for Brian Pillman, because well Brian Pillman is af'n awesome. Anyway I stumbled across a Mean Mark vs Brian Pillman match from 1990. i have to say Undertaker is the luckiest sumbitch alive. Just think if he came into WWF as Mean Mark instead of the UNdertaker, he would of been so bland.

[Teh_Showtime]

For what's it's worth, miz won MITB at MITB so thus has until July to cash it in

that would be a year right?

[djthefunkchris]

For what's it's worth, miz won MITB at MITB so thus has until July to cash it in

that would be a year right?

Depends, on if they do another one at WM I would think.. so don't know.

I didn't see it, don't know if he had a year, or had till March.

He's not getting Taker's streak though. IF that kind of wrestlecrap happens, I'm switching to just watching TNA, lol. At least I can expect that there.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think Miz winning the RR and unifying the titles will happen before getting Taker's streak at WM this year

[crownsy]

I hope this 2.37 rating signals to creative that the nexus thing is over, they weren't that intimidating to begin with and they lost skip as thier "strong guy"...

Raw needs to end the nexus angle, and salvage barret and gabriel. I actually don't mind the annonymous GM thing (crappy voice aside), but you need to start a storyline soon that uncovers who it is.

I actually don't mind Orton/Shemus fueding, but the Nexus is just stalling the show, which ALREADY has a huge stall in the GM laptop.

Hopefully this sunday sets the tone.

Wants from sunday for raw:

-nexus gone or you better have a real interesting angle planned for Cena in it and going heel

- DB wins in such a way that Miz is freed from the U.S title hunt so he can focus on the case. it's more a hindrance than a plus to him.

- show us SOME progress towards uncovering who the GM is. we get it, he's anonymous. it's become monotonous. time to have someone make some progress towards figuring it out.

[SaySo]

Source - PWTorch

Last night's episode of WWE Raw scored a 2.37 overall rating, which was down 15 percent compared to last week's previous year-low 2.80 rating.

The demographic numbers we'll post in a follow-up report show Raw was affected greatly by the Packers vs. Bears Monday Night Football game on ESPN, which was one of the most-watched cable TV broadcasts ever.

Raw averaged 3.80 million viewers over the course of the show, down 3.0 percent compared to last week's lowest viewership total of the year. Raw's first hour averaged 3.72 million viewers and increased to 3.88 million viewers in the second hour.

Raw TV viewership was the lowest in nearly three years dating back to 3.75 million viewers for the Christmas Eve episode on December 24, 2007.

Looking at the Raw TV ratings, the last time Raw had back-to-back episodes below the 3.00 benchmark was nearly two years ago. The Oct. 20 and 27, 2008 episodes each scored 2.90 ratings.Last night's episode of WWE Raw scored a 2.37 overall rating, which was down 15 percent compared to last week's previous year-low 2.80 rating.

-----Key Demographic-----

Raw scored a 1.80 rating among males 18-49, which was down from a 2.29 rating on last week's show. It's worth remembering last week's Raw was the lowest-rated of the year prior to last night.

Looking back one month, the August 30 Raw scored a 2.85 rating among males 18-49. Last night's Raw was down a full rating point in the demographic and 37.0 percent in the comparison.

Among males 18-34, Raw scored a 1.64 rating, down from a 1.92 rating last week. The Aug. 30 Raw scored a 2.47 rating in the demographic, which represents a 34.0 percent decrease from the Aug. 30 Raw to the Sept. 27 Raw.

The following is a break down of six key demographic ratings we track with the ratings for last night's Raw compared to the August 30 Raw one month ago prior to Labor Day and the start of the fall season, including Monday Night Football on ESPN.

-- A18-34: down 32.9% vs. Aug. 30
-- A18-49: down 35.3% vs. Aug. 30
-- M18-34: down 33.6% vs. Aug. 30
-- M18-49: down 36.8% vs. Aug. 30
-- M12-34: down 32.0% vs. Aug. 30
-- M12-17: down 28.9% vs. Aug. 30

[MrOnu]

I stumbled upon an article on PWTorch saying that this 2.37 was not a good indicator since it's the aggregate household rating. The WWE usually refers to the cable rating which is around 2.7 this week. Still a low number, but much closer to last week.

[supershot]

You guys also have to take into consideration the HUGE monday night football game. Packers vs. Bears rivalry game with both being 2-0.

Im not going to blame them until I see what they do against Patriots vs. Miami.

Maybe Im being biased but Im NEVER watching RAW over my Packers. Especially this season. I did switch over a few times tho.

[Hyde Hill]

2.74 cable rating according to PWI. Again IF this becomes indicative of how they will match up against MNF then the E has definitely lost popularity. Will it effect their income etc yet? Probably not yet. Will it cause them to change their programming?

Only once the loss in the demographic becomes so big that it negates their income from kid friendly sponsors and the low risk simple storytelling strategy they are using so far (aka Stephanie Booking, which compounds the fact that it is unlikely to change,) is seen to be non preferable.

[SaySo]

Source Impact Wrestling (http://www.impactwrestling.com/Content.aspx?ID=33911&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WweTnaNewsIW+%28WWE+TNA+News+ %3A%3A+ImpactWrestling.com%29)

– WWE’s creative department has not been spending as much time with Vince McMahon as they have in the past. It is said that a lot of work is being done via e-mail as opposed to actual meetings.

In related news, the majority of the creative writers are said to be pleased that Stephanie McMahon is out on maternity leave.

“It’s one less hurdle,” said a company source. “Plus, Vince isn’t as tense when she’s not around.”

=====

Source - Ringside News (http://www.ringsidenews.com/news/update-on-wwe-unifying-the-top-titles/)

Vince McMahon has gone back and forth on the time frame for unifying the World Heavyweight Championship and the WWE Championship, reports the Pro Wrestling Torch. At times he has wanted the unification to take place within 30 days, but company officials have urged him to wait until WrestleMania XXVII.

Many within the company feel they need to place the titles on the proper people and position them strongly in order to make the unification match a major event.

Though McMahon has come off adamant about unifying the titles, no one has ruled out the possibility of the WWE Chairman having a change of heart.

[eayragt]

2.74 cable rating according to PWI. Again IF this becomes indicative of how they will match up against MNF then the E has definitely lost popularity. Will it effect their income etc yet? Probably not yet. Will it cause them to change their programming?

Only once the loss in the demographic becomes so big that it negates their income from kid friendly sponsors and the low risk simple storytelling strategy they are using so far (aka Stephanie Booking, which compounds the fact that it is unlikely to change,) is seen to be non preferable.

So many people in a booking team - but look - there's the bosses daughter! Let's pin it on her. After all, the evidence is all there :rolleyes:.

Fiine, before you start she aint no Heyman. But that's quite irrelevant.

[MichiganHero]

Source Impact Wrestling (http://www.impactwrestling.com/Content.aspx?ID=33911&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WweTnaNewsIW+%28WWE+TNA+News+ %3A%3A+ImpactWrestling.com%29)

– WWE’s creative department has not been spending as much time with Vince McMahon as they have in the past. It is said that a lot of work is being done via e-mail as opposed to actual meetings.

In related news, the majority of the creative writers are said to be pleased that Stephanie McMahon is out on maternity leave.

“It’s one less hurdle,” said a company source. “Plus, Vince isn’t as tense when she’s not around.”

The bolded intrests me. Maybe some tension between the McMahons?

[TheEdgeOfReason]

So many people in a booking team - but look - there's the bosses daughter! Let's pin it on her. After all, the evidence is all there :rolleyes:.

Fiine, before you start she aint no Heyman. But that's quite irrelevant.

Isn't she the head booker? Isn't that where the buck should stop?

[SaySo]

I wonder if the tension was enough to cause Shane McMahon to split.

[MichiganHero]

I wonder if the tension was enough to cause Shane McMahon to split.

Would certainly explain things.

[Stennick]

Fine, before you start she aint no Heyman. But that's quite irrelevant.

Although I'm the extreme minority I don't think Heyman is half the booker people think he is.

[SaySo]

Stephanie McMahon Levesque Profile from WWE Corporate Website (http://corporate.wwe.com/company/bios/s_mcmahon_levesque.jsp):

http://corporate.wwe.com/images/StephanieWebPhoto6.10.jpg

Stephanie McMahon is WWE's Executive Vice President, Creative Development & Operations. She is responsible for overseeing the creative process for all television and pay-per-view programming as well as directing and producing at WWE televised events. Stephanie also oversees all aspects of talent management and branding as well as live event booking and marketing. Her prior position was Senior Vice President, Creative Writing.

Stephanie began her career with WWE as an Account Executive for the WWE sales office in New York City, while at the same time becoming a television personality on WWE programming.

In 2009, Stephanie was recognized as one of the most powerful women in cable by CableFax magazine.

[SaySo]

Although I'm the extreme minority I don't think Heyman is half the booker people think he is.

I'm on that same belief. He's overrated based on the consensus about him.

[Hyde Hill]

Isn't she the head booker? Isn't that where the buck should stop?

^^^This she isn't just part of she is head off. And the incremental change in style started when she took over from Kreski, most under-highlighted booker in history imho, in my view.

[Hyde Hill]

Although I'm the extreme minority I don't think Heyman is half the booker people think he is.

Fisrt the streak debate and now how good is Heyman debate? Doing some classics aren't we lolz.:p

[Stennick]

Lol and I'm in the minority on both of them. First I don't want anyone beating the Undertaker's streak and now I'm saying Paul Heyman is the most overrated booker in the modern era. Its a good thing the IWC isn't a real place or I'd be burned at the stake for my thoughts.

[crownsy]

Isn't she the head booker? Isn't that where the buck should stop?

playing devil's advocate, the recent drop in ratings has come since she was out of the loop on maternity leave correct?

one could make the counter argument that without her the booking team is even more incompetent than usual, leading to Edge v Laptop.

[supershot]

one could make the counter argument that without her the booking team is even more incompetent than usual, leading to Edge v Laptop.

Ohh come on! You have to give credit where credit is due.. Edge vs. Laptop is going to be match of the night! :cool:

[Moe Hunter]

Source - Ringside News (http://www.ringsidenews.com/news/update-on-wwe-unifying-the-top-titles/)

Vince McMahon has gone back and forth on the time frame for unifying the World Heavyweight Championship and the WWE Championship, reports the Pro Wrestling Torch. At times he has wanted the unification to take place within 30 days, but company officials have urged him to wait until WrestleMania XXVII.

Many within the company feel they need to place the titles on the proper people and position them strongly in order to make the unification match a major event.

Though McMahon has come off adamant about unifying the titles, no one has ruled out the possibility of the WWE Chairman having a change of heart.
Translation: VAGUE!!!

"Something might happen, but it might not. And if it does happen, it could be at any time".

Can you imagine *actual* news sites reporting BS like this? Honestly. This is the easiest crap to come up with.

[crownsy]

Ohh come on! You have to give credit where credit is due.. Edge vs. Laptop is going to be match of the night! :cool:

I did enjoy when the hal voice told him "you've got the crazy eyes again" while he was doing his bug eyed stare.

[SaySo]

Source - PWTorch

Updating the Raw TV rating for Monday's show, the show scored a 2.74 coverage rating off a first hour 2.72 rating and second hour 2.76 rating.

We originally reported a 2.37 rating, which was Raw's U.S. household rating. We received the U.S. household rating yesterday rather than the "coverage rating," causing the discrepancy since we track the "coverage rating" for comparability.

The difference is based on the two sizes of the audience the TV industry tracks. USA Network is available in approximately 98.0 million homes, as compared to the U.S. household number, which is 111.4 million TV homes.

Raw's 2.37 "household rating" is based on the total available U.S. homes. The 2.74 "coverage rating" that we track weekly is based on USA Network's reach.

Looking at the 2.74 rating, Monday's Raw remains the lowest-rated of the year, down from last week's 2.80 rating.

Raw was also the lowest-rated episode
in over two years, dating back to a 2.60 rating on September 15, 2008.

[SaySo]

WWE.com has confirmed that actor/comedian Pee-Wee Herman would be an upcoming guest star on Monday Night Raw on November 1 in Long Island, NY.

[SaySo]

After a string of low ratings in the last few weeks, WWE has hired Focus Pointe Global to hold a focus group in Santa Monica, California in attempts to figure out what people do and don't like about wrestling. The study will be held for two hours and all participants will be paid $85. This is something that TNA did not long ago, except they held in it Philadelphia and there was a huge contention of fans missing the "ECW era" of the 1990s, explaining the brief revival of ECW in the company in August.

Source: The Wrestling Observer Newsletter

[sabataged]

Lol and I'm in the minority on both of them. First I don't want anyone beating the Undertaker's streak and now I'm saying Paul Heyman is the most overrated booker in the modern era. Its a good thing the IWC isn't a real place or I'd be burned at the stake for my thoughts.


For some odd reason I tend to agree with you on both...sort of. The streak should not be broken. Ever! I really think they could have Undertaker vs Sheamus at this years WM. Let Undertaker ride off into the sunset for 9 months or so. He is irrelevant the rest of the year. Bring him back around Royal Rumble. Have the retirement ceremony and all that. One last match against John Cena. Everyone and their mama would think that Cena is going to win. He is the company man, Undertaker is retiring...all that. But let Taker win regardless.

As for Heyman. I don't think he was the MOST overrated, that has to be Vince Russo. But Heyman is definitely overrated for sure. The guy was in the right place, at the right time. He did some good stuff, but he also did some really really horrible stuff too. He wasnt under the big microscope so the only thing that really got talked about were the highlights, the good stuff. Its not like WWF, WCW, WWE or TNA now a days. Every little move is criticized. The only main stream exposure they had was their small run on TNN, and look how horrible that was. ECW had some good wrestlers, some good angles, and some good gimmicks. But ECW was made by their fans. They had the funnest PPVs because of their crowd, forget the in ring stuff.

[Chuck]

For anyone pulling the Paul Heyman was overrated card remember this...

Heyman booked OVW for a while before they brought back ECW. Anyone who has ever seen any of the shows knows that is was some of the most quality wrestling television anyoen could possibly see at the time.

Also he booked parts of Smackdown during the brand split that were entertaining.. the three way tag program with Edge/Ray vs. Guerreros vs. Angle/Benoit comes to mind first.

[sabataged]

For anyone pulling the Paul Heyman was overrated card remember this...

Heyman booked OVW for a while before they brought back ECW. Anyone who has ever seen any of the shows knows that is was some of the most quality wrestling television anyoen could possibly see at the time.

Also he booked parts of Smackdown during the brand split that were entertaining.. the three way tag program with Edge/Ray vs. Guerreros vs. Angle/Benoit comes to mind first.


But people view him as a Booker God so he does one thing good and they want to throw him a parade. Stephanie McMahon has been head booker of WWE for a decade practically. I know there has been some good angles in the past 10 years but no one would dare give her any credit waht so ever.

[Stennick]

For anyone pulling the Paul Heyman was overrated card remember this...

Heyman booked OVW for a while before they brought back ECW. Anyone who has ever seen any of the shows knows that is was some of the most quality wrestling television anyoen could possibly see at the time.

Also he booked parts of Smackdown during the brand split that were entertaining.. the three way tag program with Edge/Ray vs. Guerreros vs. Angle/Benoit comes to mind first.

Paul Heyman the ECW Years: The guy booked a very niche product for a very niche amount of fans. ECW celebrated, ecouraged and booked hardcore wrestling. The truth of the matter is no matter how "entertaining" this is you weren't ever going to get ECW's product onto the mainstream with the way it was in 1994-98. When Heyman did get a television is when things turned sour anyway. Justin Credible as ECW champion (don't tell me he was the best choice when you still had Rob Van Dam, Jerry Lynn, Tommy Dreamer and a returning Raven). Truth of the matter is his hardcore product couldn't and wouldn't sell to any sane human being running a television station. When he toned it down to get on television is when most fans consider its worst time.

I refuse to accept "well everybody left he made do with what he could and it just coincided with his t.v deal". Thats B.S, everybody was always leaving ECW period. Wasn't that why the guy was so smart? That for every two guys that left he made four new superstars? Look at that roster in 2001 and tell me there weren't superstars to be made there. Instead he went with Justin Credible and a slew of other bad choices.

Even if we notch up his ECW years a resounding success when ECW closed in 2001 Paul Heyman has never shown us he could book for the masses that he could book a more "mainstream" product.

Enter Paul Heyman Smackdown Booker: Paul did some good things as the Smackdown Booker with the "smackdown six" however Paul Heyman booked Smackdown for SIX months thats it thats all the time he did and in those six months what did he do that was more "genius" than anything anyone else did? The answer? NOthing, the smartest thing he did was take the best six workers he had and feud them I see that every day on the Dynasty Boards.

Then he went to OVW where he was the booker for less than a year again before leaving to do the ECW for just a few months.

My point is the guy has only been a booker for any length of time when he owned the company. He has never had a "mainstream" storyline in the WWE or even OVW that did huge business. He's never created a star from thin air, he's never booked some memorable, epic feud. The Jericho/HBK feud from a few years ago was better than anything Heyman has booked in ten years.

[dvdWarrior]

– WWE’s creative department has not been spending as much time with Vince McMahon as they have in the past. It is said that a lot of work is being done via e-mail as opposed to actual meetings.

I hear the real scoop here is that everytime McMahon sends in an e-mail, all the lights in the building flicker, and Michael Cole steps up to read it to the staff.

No idea if that's true or not though.

[crownsy]

I hear the real scoop here is that everytime McMahon sends in an e-mail, all the lights in the building flicker, and Michael Cole steps up to read it to the staff.

No idea if that's true or not though.

Best Promo with that stupid effect ever

"Excuse me, I've---"

"Of course you have an Email you idiot, just read it!"

[alden]

Heyman was an intresting deal in my view. The guy was more a manipulator then a booker. He had a roster of unproven or over the hill guys. He got them to do things that were unheard of in the states. I do think heyman has his good points but he would never be able to do a long term mainstream booking like has been stated before. This is from a guy who thinks a crucifixion *not a symbol, a full on cross* was ok to put on a show. If wwe did anything like that they would never put on anohter show. Look all the heat they got when they put stone cold on a taker symbol. Heyman needs a filter and vince was that filter.

[Basmat01]

Best Promo with that stupid effect ever

"Excuse me, I've---"

"Of course you have an Email you idiot, just read it!"

"And I Quote......" lol

[Hyde Hill]

Any opinions on most under rated booker?

Kreski (my pick), Stephanie, Dusty, Ole, Flair, WCW Russo, Jarrett, Mantell?

[PeterHilton]

Any opinions on most under rated booker?

Kreski (my pick), Stephanie, Dusty, Ole, Flair, WCW Russo, Jarrett, Mantell?

If sabataged comes in and jumps on your head for your "ridiculous TNA bias",you deserve it for this post...

Jarrett :rolleyes:

Dusty and Ole weren't terrible, but they also never evolved or changed.

[sabataged]

If sabataged comes in and jumps on your head for your "ridiculous TNA bias",you deserve it for this post...

Jarrett :rolleyes:

Dusty and Ole weren't terrible, but they also never evolved or changed.


LOL

[PeterHilton]

oooh...can I throw in some more old timey bookers that would've been sh*t on by any right-thinking modern audience?

Because if we're going to kill Heyman for booking a product that didn't have long-term mainstream appeal, then we should also kill Ole, Dusty, Flair, Jim Crockett, Kevin Sullivan, and anyone who ever had anything to do with that awful, awful Memphis brand of wrestling.

[Basmat01]

Any opinions on most under rated booker?

Kreski (my pick), Stephanie, Dusty, Ole, Flair, WCW Russo, Jarrett, Mantell?

I really dont think their is such a thing as a "under rated" booker. Because all bookers will only ever make half the fans happy while the other half will sh*t all over them. plus their will always be someone who thinks they know better (Jim Cornette anyone?)

Most bookers arent remembered for the good booking they did, only the bad stuff.

[sabataged]

oooh...can I throw in some more old timey bookers that would've been sh*t on by any right-thinking modern audience?

Because if we're going to kill Heyman for booking a product that didn't have long-term mainstream appeal, then we should also kill Ole, Dusty, Flair, Jim Crockett, Kevin Sullivan, and anyone who ever had anything to do with that awful, awful Memphis brand of wrestling.


In my eyes, the thing that makes Heyman overrated is the fact that people talk of him as a GOD amongst bookers. Thats not the case. He was good, but people tend to put ECW up on a pedestal sometimes. About 7 years ago I bought a VHS (I know right) lot of every ECW ppv ever produced off of ebay. There is some real crap in there too. The guy didnt turn all the **** into gold. But thats the way people perceive him sometimes.

[PeterHilton]

In my eyes, the thing that makes Heyman overrated is the fact that people talk of him as a GOD amongst bookers. Thats not the case. He was good, but people tend to put ECW up on a pedestal sometimes. About 7 years ago I bought a VHS (I know right) lot of every ECW ppv ever produced off of ebay. There is some real crap in there too. The guy didnt turn all the **** into gold. But thats the way people perceive him sometimes.

Saying he's overrated is totally fair, because internet nerds do act like he's some sort of all-knowing demi-god.

But some people take that "he's overrated" thing and turn it into "he's no good" which is incredibly unfair.

He was smart. He paid attention to the undercard. He recognized talent. He got the very most out of a group of guys that no other promotion would touch for the most part (I mean..Sandman? Ball Mahoney? Tommy Dreamer? Those guys were frickin horrible and Heyman turned them into draws)

He booked to and attracted older teens and young adults, something the WWF and WCW were failing at around that time.

He created characters like Taz and Raven that were relevant and accurately reflected the time, something the WWE barely manages to do even now.

Heyman was a really, really good writer and booker. ECW - as a product - completely changed the industry and it was the basis for a lot of the Attitude Era and for what Eric added to WCW to make their undercard so strong.

He's not the be-all, end-all. But he's the last truly "innovative" booker the industry has seen and that says a lot.

[Adam Ryland]

That's three posts in a row - stop the swearing or official warnings start being given. You all know the board rules.

[sabataged]

That's three posts in a row - stop the swearing or official warnings start being given. You all know the board rules.


Guess I didn't realize the adult word for POOP is considered a swear word. WWE goes PG so GDS has to now? Whatever, I have seen other "bigger name" users on this board swear without any sort of public warning...I knew there was a reason I quit posting on this forum for awhile. Back to my hole I go I guess.

[The Final Countdown]

WWE goes PG so GDS has to now?
Profanity has been against the rules here for as long as I've been around--before I even signed up, and I was just lurking. It's certainly not a new thing.

[Linsolv]

Usually it's not that big a deal so nobody gets the smackdown, but Adam tends to come along when things start to get out of hand, or might eventually get out of hand. It's not some attack on you.

[Adam Ryland]

Guess I didn't realize the adult word for POOP is considered a swear word.

I think it's considered a swear word by just about everyone - the fact that it triggers the swear word filter would seem to back this up.

WWE goes PG so GDS has to now?

Swearing has always been prohibited on this board. I don't think it's unreasonable to expect people to be able to write a sentence without swearing.

I have seen other "bigger name" users on this board swear without any sort of public warning

If they have then they've either been lucky and a mod hasn't seen it or they've been warned by private message.

[ampulator]

Saying he's overrated is totally fair, because internet nerds do act like he's some sort of all-knowing demi-god.

But some people take that "he's overrated" thing and turn it into "he's no good" which is incredibly unfair.

He was smart. He paid attention to the undercard. He recognized talent. He got the very most out of a group of guys that no other promotion would touch for the most part (I mean..Sandman? Ball Mahoney? Tommy Dreamer? Those guys were frickin horrible and Heyman turned them into draws)

He booked to and attracted older teens and young adults, something the WWF and WCW were failing at around that time.

He created characters like Taz and Raven that were relevant and accurately reflected the time, something the WWE barely manages to do even now.

Heyman was a really, really good writer and booker. ECW - as a product - completely changed the industry and it was the basis for a lot of the Attitude Era and for what Eric added to WCW to make their undercard so strong.

He's not the be-all, end-all. But he's the last truly "innovative" booker the industry has seen and that says a lot.
I think his biggest genius was he sort of pushed WWE and WCW into recgonizing the market had changed. WWF stole a lot of ideas from ECW (I'm an Attitude Era fan, and I admit this), and WCW stole a lot of their wrestlers. In fact, one of ECW's lasting legacies isn't Hardcore, but rather, the Cult nature of ECW. That still affects wrestling and WWE today.