The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[BHK1978]

My whole point was that they could concentrate higher on one thing at a time, then they can right now. With the "Jobber" in place as the opponant, who else are you going to be interested in?

Remember, these things I'm talking about were DURING the territorial times, and before the first Wrestlemania. When I say something like that last sentence, that's not me being patronizing, I'm just trying to set the mood.... The time's back then wasn't as focused on TV ratings and who put on the best show, but on the wrestler's themselves.

For example... You didn't see everyone going "Crocket" "Crocket" or "WWWF" "WWWF"! They chanted Names "SNUKA!" "SNUKA!". They might not know his opponant, but by god they come to see Snuka! That's part of my point about focus. You would see Mean Jean interview a star, and you would get a good idea if you liked that star or not. You didn't see him interview the jobber (Gold-Dust in the example above).

Even after re-reading both of these posts, I don't feel like I'm conveying the message I'm trying to convey. Go ahead and dismiss it if you must, but there is something I'm trying to say that I'm just for some reason unable to get accross.

I agree with you, now it is more about being loyal to promotions. However, back then it was about the wrestler's. To me the constant squash matches made the Superstars look all that much better.

For me the Attitude era was about me exactly not enjoying the product (Although I felt it was a rip off of ECW and to a lesser extent WCW.). I was gald to see the Doink the Clow type characters gone.

That being said I did not like a good portion of the Attitude Era's roster. Steve Austin yes but I was a fan of him going back to before it was cool to be a fan of his. The Rock, yes I thought he was great as well. However, some of the others on the roster at that time I just did not enjoy.

[djthefunkchris]

Actually, now that I think about it..they did it twice.

80s fans grew up and didn't really like the Attitude Era because it was radically different. And then those Attitude fans grew up and complain about the product now, because it's radically different.

So while it's true that people will tend to prefer what they grew up on, it's also not entirely their fault that the company they grew up watching decided to change what they were doing.

EDIT: But back to what I was saying..wrestling TV in the 80s was balls. No matter how old you are.

I think we just didn't like all the freakin' nasty stuff in it. I mean... yeah, that's probably it moreso then anything. I don't really like a bunch of nasty stuff. Didn't really like the digs at each other either... thought it was very unprofessional, not something I would do to an opponant at all. I also thought it was alot more sloppy and less thought out. Everything seemed to lack focus, and alot of stuff looked like they just decided to do something different at the last minute. It looked more like a reality TV show then any other point in history I think, and since I hate reality shows, probably that's a big minus for someone like me. They went from a family friendly product, to something I would be embarrassed to watch in front of my family, etc.

The thing is different strokes for different folks. Everyone else remember's the great things like "The Rock" or "Stone Cold", I remember things like sex scenes and clothing mishaps. I have never took away from the great characters that come out of that era... never. I just didn't like the era for all the OTHER things that come out of it.

Did I ever mention that I never liked HBK till like the last five years of his carreer? I honestly never liked Flair either.... Back in the day I hated him because I never felt he was believable in the roles they had him in... Felt that someone with the talent of Steamboat shouldn't have took five minutes to beat him in the ring. These things I hated back then (80s), so it's not like it's all sugar coated to me. I'm just as much above that as anyone else thinks they are with the attitude era. I just lived it, so I know looking at match's, watching DVD's of Wrestlemania number 1, and so on and so on, is not anything like it was when watching it live. Just as almost anyone will tell you going to a live show today is much better then watching it on TV.

We can have room for both, and agree that it's just different strokes for different folks (Another 80's thing).

As far as being balls... I have absolutely no idea what that means... I know what it means to have balls, and in that context it sounds like your saying something good. I have a feeling I"m wrong though.

[PeterHilton]

Can't we put on a "good" show here people care about the stars and not if they face other stars? WCW may have been killed by the NWO storyline but at it's height it did an entire NWO PPV where there was 1 match that had both sides with stars. A lot of the NWO matches were against "jobbers" even if they were sold as "legitamit" opponents.

If you read the results of that time (or the Death of WCW book) that PPV was a colossal failure and drew like a third of their normal PPV buy numbers.

[PeterHilton]

I agree with you, now it is more about being loyal to promotions. However, back then it was about the wrestler's. To me the constant squash matches made the Superstars look all that much better.



Baffling. Totally baffling. It's like listening to someone say they prefer black & white TV or dial-up modems.

As far as being balls... I have absolutely no idea what that means... I know what it means to have balls, and in that context it sounds like your saying something good. I have a feeling I"m wrong though.

It was terrible. I just don't see any way how a syndicated wekly show that featured one or two good interview segments and 6 matches where NOTHING happend could objectively be looked at as being entertaining.

If you ran WWF Superstars type shows today (nothing but squash matches,minimal angles, going weeks between appearances by your main eventers) fans would reject them totally.

[djthefunkchris]

No offense, chris, but the world has moved on from a time when TV ratings didn't matter and no one cared about putting on a good show. You might as well be talking about the Jurassic Era.

Anything before the first WM is almost completely irrelevant to wrestling today.

Same reason why I never want to hear people talk about people from before 1979 as 'the greatest wrestler ever'...it's not even the same thing.

I never said they didn't care about putting on a good show... and don't think for a minute they weren't competing with each other... especially in the NWA... Everyone wanted THIER star with the title, for example.

And to put off 100 years of wrestling that happened before wrestlemania is kind of crude in my book. I can't say I agree with you at all. It's only a different game now because of the ability to be seen by so many more people at the same time. The National networks, cable, etc. These have changed, but I find it very hard to say wrestling has changed all that much.

Whenever we talk about Territorries, I feel like alot of people think of them as "Old School" indie promotions or something..> These guys drew thousands of fans, not 30... These guys had big shows that would draw huge crowds, make incredible money (for the time), and even the jobbers' back then at least got a pay check... The money for wrestler's back then in comparison to guys trying to get "in" today, it's alot worse today. If anything, wrestling has de-volved, gotten incredibly worse for people not in one of the "BIG BOY" promotions. In the US, you either work for TNA or WWE, and outside of maybe a FEW other's... ROH is probalby the closest thing to a "Territory" type promotions we have, and they don't pull half as much to their events as say... Georgia Championship Wrestling did.

[dvdWarrior]

If you ran WWF Superstars type shows today (nothing but squash matches,minimal angles, going weeks between appearances by your main eventers) fans would reject them totally.

Seems to me today's fans are gonna reject... darn near anything anyway. No matter what happens, few fans ever seem happy with it.

Just not a fun environment anymore. It was fun to be a fan back in the 80s.

Granted, I was a kid in the 80s, but still.

[djthefunkchris]

Baffling. Totally baffling. It's like listening to someone say they prefer black & white TV or dial-up modems.



It was terrible. I just don't see any way how a syndicated wekly show that featured one or two good interview segments and 6 matches where NOTHING happend could objectively be looked at as being entertaining.

If you ran WWF Superstars type shows today (nothing but squash matches,minimal angles, going weeks between appearances by your main eventers) fans would reject them totally.

WWF was something most people hated, you do realise that so I don't know why you even bring them up? We weren't watching WWE/WWF till after they started taking over... had no other option. There were lots of shows, almost every day of the week I could watch wrestling, but GCW was the one I liked most at the time.

WWF was horrible, and people revolted when they took over GCW Championship wrestling, as we weren't down with that crap at the time.

If all your going to do is bring up old WWF, and not even go back to WWWF, then we aren't going to communicate very well, lol.. I have no other option but to agree with you if that's what we will be judging the whole era on.

[djthefunkchris]

Just for the record... WWF might have been the big WINNER, but realise this had alot more to do with cash flow, and all the pieces falling together, signing as much of the biggest draws at the time, etc... then it had to do with their product. IN my opinion, WWF (when Vince took over) was one of the WORST wrestling shows during the time. If I had a choice, I would have much rather almost any of the other shows.. outside of maybe Memphis, to have won the whole thing, then WWF.

Since doing that, I have become a fan of WWF/E, but before Wrestlemania, I hated their show. Please... Do not ever use them to compare what wrestling was like in the 80's.

[PeterHilton]

And to put off 100 years of wrestling that happened before wrestlemania is kind of crude in my book. I can't say I agree with you at all. It's only a different game now because of the ability to be seen by so many more people at the same time. The National networks, cable, etc. These have changed, but I find it very hard to say wrestling has changed all that much.

Whenever we talk about Territorries, I feel like alot of people think of them as "Old School" indie promotions or something..> These guys drew thousands of fans, not 30... These guys had big shows that would draw huge crowds, make incredible money (for the time), and even the jobbers' back then at least got a pay check... The money for wrestler's back then in comparison to guys trying to get "in" today, it's alot worse today. If anything, wrestling has de-volved, gotten incredibly worse for people not in one of the "BIG BOY" promotions. In the US, you either work for TNA or WWE, and outside of maybe a FEW other's... ROH is probalby the closest thing to a "Territory" type promotions we have, and they don't pull half as much to their events as say... Georgia Championship Wrestling did.

Let's see...

I'm dismissing that era specifically BECAUSE the world has changes so much. The "The National networks, cable, etc" isn't some small thing.

You're talking about a 24 hour multimedia entertainment cycle where everyone on the planet can see any wrestler on the planet any time they want to in a few key strokes. You're talking about a wolrd where the biggest company on the planet is s publicly traded commodity whose performers can be interview by fans on-line and whose every quote is reported on instantly; where their private lives are not only known by fans...but talked about, intruded upon, and reported instantaneously.

During the territories, if a guy went cold, you shipped him to another state where he'd instantly become a hot draw. If a match drew a great response from a live crowd, you ran THE EXACT SAME MATCH every night for the next three weeks straight.

Wrestlers never broke kayfabe because it was EASY to never break kayfabe; just play to the fans who stuck around after the show and then get in your car and drive. No one interviewed. There was no such thing as a 'wrestling news cycle.' Your private life - the hookers, drugs, alcohol, violence, crime, steroids, whatever - was YOURS.

All of that MATTERS. it matters. More so than whether or not the guys on the indy scene are getting the same kind of check. The indy scene is struggling..and eventually that means that not enough young talent is being developed...but that's not really what I'm talking about:

I'm saying that the WORLD TODAY is so different that you can't compare what made a wrestler succesful back then to what makes a wrestler successful now.

There are lots of wrestlers who made it big during the territory days that never would've been able to make it today specifically because the media and exposure is so different.

[BHK1978]

Just for the record... WWF might have been the big WINNER, but realise this had alot more to do with cash flow, and all the pieces falling together, signing as much of the biggest draws at the time, etc... then it had to do with their product. IN my opinion, WWF (when Vince took over) was one of the WORST wrestling shows during the time. If I had a choice, I would have much rather almost any of the other shows.. outside of maybe Memphis, to have won the whole thing, then WWF.

Since doing that, I have become a fan of WWF/E, but before Wrestlemania, I hated their show. Please... Do not ever use them to compare what wrestling was like in the 80's.

To add to that location was very much a key as well. It helps when your main area has cities such as NYC, Boston, and Philadelphia in it.

[PeterHilton]

WWF was something most people hated, you do realise that so I don't know why you even bring them up? We weren't watching WWE/WWF till after they started taking over... had no other option. There were lots of shows, almost every day of the week I could watch wrestling, but GCW was the one I liked most at the time.

WWF was horrible, and people revolted when they took over GCW Championship wrestling, as we weren't down with that crap at the time.

If all your going to do is bring up old WWF, and not even go back to WWWF, then we aren't going to communicate very well, lol.. I have no other option but to agree with you if that's what we will be judging the whole era on.

I bring up WWF because that's what most people who had exposure to that era will remember. Not everyone say these regional TV shows that you mention.

But those weren't much better.

[PeterHilton]

Just for the record... WWF might have been the big WINNER, but realise this had alot more to do with cash flow, and all the pieces falling together, signing as much of the biggest draws at the time, etc... then it had to do with their product. IN my opinion, WWF (when Vince took over) was one of the WORST wrestling shows during the time. If I had a choice, I would have much rather almost any of the other shows.. outside of maybe Memphis, to have won the whole thing, then WWF.

Since doing that, I have become a fan of WWF/E, but before Wrestlemania, I hated their show. Please... Do not ever use them to compare what wrestling was like in the 80's.

I tend to agree...(80s WWF in-ring was generally pretty bad) ..but you can't NOT talk about them when they were the most successful promotion of the era. By far.

It's like saying "I know Microsoft was the most successful company of the home PC boom, but can we talk about that time w/o mentioning Windows?"

[djthefunkchris]

Sorry for the late reply's, but a friends car broke down, had to go help them out.
I tend to agree...(80s WWF in-ring was generally pretty bad) ..but you can't NOT talk about them when they were the most successful promotion of the era. By far.

It's like saying "I know Microsoft was the most successful company of the home PC boom, but can we talk about that time w/o mentioning Windows?"

That's not a fair way to look at it.... It's like saying OJ would have won if he was broke and had a court appointed lawyer, it's simply something we don't know..

We do know that WWE grabbed all the "most popular" wrestler's around, and put them on a supercard known as Wrestlemania. We do know that they spent alot of money hyping their product through things such as MTV. We do know that WWE/F had what seemed like a never ending stream of money to bassically buy off (some of these promotions they bought were not hurting, the money offered was just to good to pass up), or buy the talent of the other promotions all over the country.

People seem to think that it was their popularity, and not their money that did all this. It was the money, not the popularity. It was the money, and the best deals anyone could get. Alot like WCW did when trying to beat WWF, by giving bigger fatter pay checks, offering more stability, etc. It's just not as simple as saying since they were the most successfull, that they were also the most popular, the most durable yes... the most popular, not by a long shot.

They had the deepest pockets, and therefore was able to "bully" competition... not much different then a Mafia scenario to be honest. "What are you doing Vinnie, your gonna end up in a lake!" This was actually a possibility, but he went through with it anyways, and everyone knows his dad was against it.

On a smaller scale... Let's say you own a pizza shop in town. There are 20 other pizza shops in town, and you offer them all a fair amount to buy them out. They might have better pizza, but that's not the point, your going for something different here. The ones' that don't let you buy them, you decide your going to buy all the ingrediants that make their pizza so good. Now, they don't have a choice, they are cut off from the great pizza they once had, and now their pizza is definately not as "good" as yours, so your going to win that war on a different level... but most finally cave in and take the money (by this time they are really smarter for it, because you bassically crushed their bussiness).

However, even though you have all the best ingrediants, it doesn't mean you can put the right portions together to come up with the best pizza, it just means that since no one else has these ingrediants, they can't compete with your flavor anymore. You hold an EVENT that has all the best PIZZA Ingrediants that you can find, and bring in a ton of people to eat your pizza, as this is the first time in history that all the pizza is available at one place.

Now, you tell me... Does this make your pizza shop the best PIZZA ever? Or does it mean you just did what it took by all means necessary to make your's the best pizza available?

Like I said, to dismiss everything before Wrestlemania, and even to count things leading up to wrestlemania in that time period, is just the wrong way to base your opinion on that era of Wrestling. These companies got worse because of their being bullied and losing talent. YOu have to look at them before this happened, not afterward.

Why would you take the worse times of one era to compare to the best times of another era?

[PeterHilton]

Why would you take the worse times of one era to compare to the best times of another era?

I already explained this: I'm not talking about their quality at the time, I'm talking about the industry and the world as a whole.

I just can't see some of the more successful territory workers of the day - Harley Race, Junkyard Dog, Dusty Rhodes, Jerry Lawler, Bill Watts, the Funks, etc - becoming big superstars at any era except the territory days.

Successful? Maybe. Probably. But the same level of success? No.

It'd be like saying old school rap groups could break out and hit it big today. Things are just too different. That's why i don't make those comparisons.

If you're comparing territory era promotions to promotions post WM, the industry and the world as a whole is just too different to make a fair comparison.

[djthefunkchris]

I already explained this: I'm not talking about their quality at the time, I'm talking about the industry and the world as a whole.

I just can't see some of the more successful territory workers of the day - Harley Race, Junkyard Dog, Dusty Rhodes, Jerry Lawler, Bill Watts, the Funks, etc - becoming big superstars at any era except the territory days.

Successful? Maybe. Probably. But the same level of success? No.

It'd be like saying old school rap groups could break out and hit it big today. Things are just too different. That's why i don't make those comparisons.

If you're comparing territory era promotions to promotions post WM, the industry and the world as a whole is just too different to make a fair comparison.

Ok... I think I'm getting what your saying now. What your saying is exactly the reason I liked things better back then though...

You can't have as many today, because there are no where for them to be seen as hugely as their was back then. For example, almost all the territories had their own TV shows, on TV, etc. I already talked about how they drew, etc. This was better to me because you had your Popular guys (like the one's you mentioned), and you had your SUPER over the top Popular guys, guys like Steamboat, Hogan, Snuka, Piper, Orndorf, Andre, etc. This isn't possible today because you bassically have two outlets (in the US) which is WWE and TNA... and to a much lesser extent, ROH (which in my opinion is closest, although only about halfway their).

That's my whole point though, is that you were able to focus on alot more people at a much greater depth then what's possible now... And the reason that you see so much of the "main" roster all the time, instead of new stars, etc.

Anyways, I am enjoying this conversation as it seems to maybe bridging a gap or something that has been missing (confusion) when people like me say we loved the golden years as opposed to the attitude era, etc.

[dvdWarrior]

Thing is, I SHOULD be very pro-Attitude Era, I would think. I was a teenager when it was happening, and was VERY much into wrestling at the time. I can only assume that my being "baptized" in wrestling pretty much since birth, (I was born into a family full of wrestling fans, can't remember ever not watching), is why I so much prefer the wrestling style of the 80s.

While I'm sure that my nostalgic, rose-colored glasses view of the era affected my thoughts and opinions on it, could that really be the only thing?

Since I've started watching WWE Classics On Demand, I've noticed that, just from my recent viewings: I seem to enjoy the Nitros more than the Raws in both '96 and '98; the WWE Old School show are possibly my favorite thing on there, (house shows that were originally broadcast on the MSG network); and there's a slight chance that the original ECW was just a teeny bit overrated.

But I do seem to like the old WWF Prime Time shows a lot, and the old pay-per-views from the era. Bobby Heenan and Gorilla Monsoon could make 'a show full of squashes' at least reasonably entertaining.

Stennick's comment on the NWA TV he saw were right, but, if I remember correctly, NWA's World Championship Wrestling was much more of a 'B' Show, and episodes from World Wide Wrestling from around that time would have probably been much better.

Think I started to ramble there for a bit.

[Self]

Only skimmed a bunch of this.

I love squash match. Love them. One guy beating the hell out of his opponent in a one-sided ass whoopin' floats my boat. I was a huge Koslov mark back when he was headbuttin' dudes to death. I think the problem with squash matches, at least in WWE, is that recently they've only been used to showcase big, clumsy, green workers who can't handle 'real' matches. The audience has been conditioned to not care, and even chant "you can't wrestle" because they see the matches as an angle more than a real piece of quality wrestling entertainment.

Put a guy like Daniel Bryan in a squash match, and I think it would be awesome. John Morrison kicking and flipping a dude to death in 5 minutes would totally float my boat. Squash matches can be really good fun to watch. Not to fill a show, but I see no problem with trying 1 or 2 per show.

Each show was different back then. One show Hogan might be on, another the Sheik, etc. There was alway's a different focus each week, not the same focus every week like there is now. That's why the shows are 2 hours instead of 1 now, I guess... Too many people to focus on.

I love this. Shows like Lost have always thrilled me with their focus. They take one character, and really hone in on a specific aspect or flaw of his personality. I'd love to see the same thing tried with a wrestling show in the modern age.

Am I the only one who like Dukes? The damn Broken Lizard Super Trooper scene was effin HIGH larious!

I actually like it too. Got a pre-Psych James Roday in it. That's good stuff.

For example... You didn't see everyone going "Crocket" "Crocket" or "WWWF" "WWWF"! They chanted Names "SNUKA!" "SNUKA!".

This drives me nuts nowadays. I HATE it when the crowd chants the name of the promotion. It's a "thanks for getting these guys to put on a good show" chant, as opposed to a "Oh my God that dude is totally awesome" chant. I got into some chanting at the Dragon Gate shows I went to. I went wild for BxB Hulk. I screamed for PAC. I couldn't bring myself to join in with the 'Dra-Gon-Gate!" stuff. Couldn't do it. And I love Dragon Gate. I just want to love the characters more.

[Wrestling Century]

and there's a slight chance that the original ECW was just a teeny bit overrated.


IMO, yes, it was overrated, but it sure was fun to watch! :cool:

[djthefunkchris]

In alot of ways I think we view the TEW game as a way of actually doing bussiness, and if someone was "hot" back then, we think oh.. they have to be on every show or they will get mad. That's not how it went though, it could mean you only seen your favorite once a month back then, but if you watched, you learned more about other's.

That's what is missing in todays wrestling, is that there is just too much going on between everyone. You have the ladies, it's not the focus though, because then you have the tag teams, but that's not the focus, because now you have the US title, and then that's not the focus, but we "review" all of this weekly (no matter what your watching), now we get to the focus, It's NEXUS, but... that's not really the focus because we are focusing on Cena not Nexus. That's not the focus either... it's all the focus, too much going on.

Attention span is blamed for this, attitude era is blamed for this, but I just blame forgetfullness and in a way competition. Too many worried about specific ratings and how to get them better all the time, rather then how to put off stuff that people will be more and more interested in. How you ever going to get people interested in the US title if they only get 15 minutes to be the focus of the show? It's just silly to me the way things are done now-a-days, but I have to admit I still watch it, and at times love it.

I want to see Santino more then anyone else, in particular... but they won't never have a Santino show... too much other things to make happen.

What is up with today anyways... I just got back from giving a little support for my wife and co-worker who just had a small fender bender... I'm thinking I'm cursed today, lol.

[Antithesis]

chris, your post is incredibly patronizing. I'm not stupid.

I'm 34. I was old enough in the 80s to have watched the WWF regularly. I know what the purpose of jobber matches are..it doesn't make them good or any better that they "served a purpose."

Fans don't want to watch that crap, which is exactly why WCW caught fire when they went AWAY from that format.

Don't try to sell me on a show full of jobber matches. I'm not buying.

As for your "different focus" argument: I don't know what you mean other than they slowed down the pace of storytelling. Well guess what? That's exactly what the WWE is doing now, which is why we get to see feuds that last 3-4 PPVs before they are settled.

If anything, the storytelling of the current product is closer to the 80s than ever before..which is why it's turned off a lot of the younger fans who grew up on the Attitude Era.

The answer is simple, and if you are 34 you are old enough to remember it.

Kayfabe.

Sure, even with god awful jobber matches, as little kid, I knew it was fake, but since it had the pretext of being legitimate, I could suspend my disbelief enough to give a damn.

The very moment wrestling shows had a magic camera backstage that the wrestlers had to pretend they couldn't see, but followed them around and would broadcast their evil plans to sneak attack the baby face not only to the audience, but everyone in the arena and even their target who could hear the audio, yet always managed to fall for it. I was simply too insulted to care any more.

[djthefunkchris]

The answer is simple, and if you are 34 you are old enough to remember it.

Kayfabe.
Sure, even with god awful jobber matches, as little kid, I knew it was fake, but since it had the pretext of being legitimate, I could suspend my disbelief enough to give a damn.
The very moment wrestling shows had a magic camera backstage that the wrestlers had to pretend they couldn't see, but followed them around and would broadcast their evil plans to sneak attack the baby face not only to the audience, but everyone in the arena and even their target who could hear the audio, yet always managed to fall for it. I was simply too insulted to care any more.

Yes, this.

See, even though I might have thought "X" was slow and easy to out maneuver, there was that (Kafabe?) belief that as soon as they got their hands on you, it was all over. "Oh no, if he locks in the camel clutch, he's going to win it!"

They were "Super" heroes and villains. Some you liked, some you didn't think were much more then sidekicks, but they were all stronger then the average man, or at least that's how they were put over. Jobber match was nothing more then an "ordinary" guy trying to do something. "I'll get you Piper, I'm showing the world your an over-rated twit!" Then in less then two minutes, Piper is throwing him all over the ring saying "I'm a twit am I? What am I? Say it again!" and the ref keeps having to hold him back, till finally the pinfall is made in an almost sympathetic move, so as not to harm this would be "do gooder".

That's what made WWF so horrible back then though, is that they started getting away from that more and more, and started throwing in more and more realistic emotions and backstage skits and such. No one would have believed that was the way of the future back then, but no one really realised how much clout the WWF had either.

I can look back at the history of Wrestling and see how it all come to the point it is now pretty easily though.. But at that time I didn't have this information in front of me. You had the turn of the century (1900) with the Gold Dust trio being formed by three great minds "Ed 'The Strangler' Lewis (very popular wrestler), Billy Sandow (great manager and promoter), and Toots Mondt (visionary of what wrestling could be). Sandow and Mondt have a difference in opinion (physical traits in wrestler's, etc.), Mondt teams with Roderick "Jess" McMahon and forms Capital Wrestling, Vincent J McMahon Later replaces his father, WWWF joins the NWA in the early 50's, etc. This is the same company today, although having changed names, it's still the same company since probably the late 20's or early 30's. Jess was a boxing promoter, and Toot's knew if he could team up with him, they would be able to controll the New York regional area. The company was not a bad company till Vince Jr. took over.

Then it started going the way it is now, and most people hated it back then... but when you don't have a choice, and don't realise whats' going on and why the other shows aren't around anymore, you watch what you can. Sure, we find out AFTER it's all said and done, what happened, but Wrestlemania was so fun that we didn't care by then. Wrestlemania was OUR legacy, something that only happened in OUR time. We knew it was historic, but no one realised it was going to become an annual event.... or it might not have gone over as well as it did.

[UkWrestleFan]

Just read the SmackDown spoilers [highlight below to read more]

What the hell is going on with Kane? Nexus helped him beat 'Taker. But, they've turned up on SmackDown to 'takeover' and Kane helps fight them off? Are they turning him face? Seems really, really odd to me.

[djthefunkchris]

Just read the SmackDown spoilers [highlight below to read more]

Interesting. I don't have a problem with it at all though. The divide between it is so "medium" now a days, that it doesn't seem out of character at all to me.... White text added to say more:

I've never thought that Kane was necessarily a "Good Guy" or Undertaker for that matter. To me they have always been kind of dark character's, and I don't have a problem at all if he goes up against Nexus or whatever, as it's a power thing moreso, and a brand thing probably even bigger. You can't come on my show and TAKE over. Taking over my show means you took me over too! Even if I seen him as a legitimate Heel, I wouldn't have a problem with Heel vs. Heel in this way.

[UkWrestleFan]

Interesting. I don't have a problem with it at all though. The divide between it is so "medium" now a days, that it doesn't seem out of character at all to me.... White text added to say more:

Ah yeah, never really thought about it like that. I instantly thought 'WTF' and never thought about it properly.

[djthefunkchris]

Ah yeah, never really thought about it like that. I instantly thought 'WTF' and never thought about it properly.

Just thought of something... I guess I'll have to wait to see the show if I have any forsight at all but... again with White Text below.

What if they are trying to set up a Cena (seeing as he's in Nexus) vs. Kane match?

[Sazzita]

I dont get to watch the WWE as much as I used to and please can someone get that guy a tan ;)

[UkWrestleFan]

Just thought of something... I guess I'll have to wait to see the show if I have any forsight at all but... again with White Text below

Hmmmm, interesting thought....[White Text Below]

I'm not sure if Cena was with Nexus on SmackDown, it didn't actually say in the spoliers. I'd have thought so.

[PeterHilton]

The answer is simple, and if you are 34 you are old enough to remember it.

Kayfabe.

Sure, even with god awful jobber matches, as little kid, I knew it was fake, but since it had the pretext of being legitimate, I could suspend my disbelief enough to give a damn.

The very moment wrestling shows had a magic camera backstage that the wrestlers had to pretend they couldn't see, but followed them around and would broadcast their evil plans to sneak attack the baby face not only to the audience, but everyone in the arena and even their target who could hear the audio, yet always managed to fall for it. I was simply too insulted to care any more.

Oh GOD...I hate this answer. I really just hate it.

It's like going to people and saying that "you know what ruined music..those din-durn kids and their rock n roll music"

It's never going to be undone. Kayfabe could never exist today. And the fact that people even bring this up makes them sound like some crotchety old man.

EDIT: sure enough I go to the next page in the thread and the crotchety old guy agrees lol

Fellas...it's over. Kayfabe is dead. It's been dead for a good 20 years. There's no way kayfabe could exist any more...there's just too much information available to fans. The closest approximation would be Self's suggestion of running a promotion like a TV show, where you come out and admit that these are "actors" playing a "character" while they're on screen and that "on screen" is the only time you have to suspend your belief.

If not having kayfabe bothers you so much you should maybe get on the trolley and head downtown to see what's playing on the magic picture tube. :rolleyes:

[Stennick]

The point Peter is trying to make is that the business HAD to change.

In fact some might say that it was BEHIND the times. By the time 1996 came along we already had 24 hour news, we already had the internet, we already had every single bit of information we needed on any one thing in a matter of moments.

People say they were "in" on it in the 70's and 80's but if you were in fact "in" on it you were in the minority. You don't riot and stab people if you're "in" on it yet this happened all the time int he 70's and 80's.

The point is its not like they just went in this direction all their own. The entire world was changing and for a while they were in last place. Nobody wanted to see good guy vs. bad guy anymore and thats why Vince almost went out of business nothing to do with anything else.

Jerry Springer, Teen Movies, Grunge Rock, times were changing and if Vince and company didn't change with them they were going to go the way of 80's hair metal bands.

The WWF had to change and it changed its product MUCH later than the rest of the late nineties entertainment genres. There is no way in 2010 that the 1970's and 80's form of pro wrestling would come close to working it just wouldn't.

You said you were "insulted" by them presenting something to you that took you out of the moment. Yet you weren't insulting about Ric Flair and the Horseemen rubbing Ricky Morton's face into the pavement until he bled, or the Road Warriors ramming a spike in Dusty's roads eyes, or Magnum TA and Tully Blanchard's I Quit match, or Scaffold matches. It was ok for these guys to do attempted murder on each other because it was kayfabe but you were insulted when someone tried to give you a magical camera?

That seems off.

[LordJaguar]

Not to sound crotchety and old but, doesn't CHIKARA sort of use kayfabe?

[Stennick]

To a degree yes its tongue and cheek kayfabe. Its not like anyone is trying to say OMG this is real!

They use an air grenade as a finisher move there so take that for what you will kayfabe wise.

Its not so much Kayfabe as its protecting the workers indedtiies. A lot of the guys that work CHIKARA work other places under more serious characters. If they were "outed" then their more serious characters may not be taken....well seriously.

Aside from the protection of worker identities I wouldn't say their any more Kayfabe than ROH.

Kayfabe still exists its just a much much more loose version than it was 25 years ago. Not even the WWE says "btw this is completely fake" they just loosen it up to the point where light coming out of an Urn is an ok storyline.

[PeterHilton]

I can look back at the history of Wrestling and see how it all come to the point it is now pretty easily though.. But at that time I didn't have this information in front of me. You had the turn of the century (1900) with the Gold Dust trio being formed by three great minds "Ed 'The Strangler' Lewis (very popular wrestler), Billy Sandow (great manager and promoter), and Toots Mondt (visionary of what wrestling could be). Sandow and Mondt have a difference in opinion (physical traits in wrestler's, etc.), Mondt teams with Roderick "Jess" McMahon and forms Capital Wrestling, Vincent J McMahon Later replaces his father, WWWF joins the NWA in the early 50's, etc. This is the same company today, although having changed names, it's still the same company since probably the late 20's or early 30's. Jess was a boxing promoter, and Toot's knew if he could team up with him, they would be able to controll the New York regional area. The company was not a bad company till Vince Jr. took over.



This paragrph is just hilarious. It's like listening to someone complain about leather helmets going away in football.

You should change you avatar to a picture of grampa Simpson and call it a day.

If people were really that unhappy with the product, then the WWF wouldn't have attracted the following they did.

It's simple: those old-timey fans fell off and new fans were created. More new fans. Who spent more and were willing to buy PPVs and merchandise and watch TV and boost ratings, etc. If those territories were run better or were more popular, they wouldn't have been bought out in the first place.

It happens in all business: smart companies evolve and create new customers. Not-so-smart companies stay the same, never change, and cling on their fanbase hoping it will be enough to keep them alive, not realizing that eventaully their customers age and change no matter what. Smart companies stay relevant. Not-so-smart companies complain about 'the good ol' days'

Vince pushed the industry. And all those old timey promoters couldn't hang.

That's what happened.

[lazorbeak]

What kills me is there's absolutely nothing that stops an individual from basically simulating kayfabe. All you have to do is not read spoilers, not read terrible wrestling news websites, and just react to the story the same way as you would react to characters in a play. Watching a play wasn't ruined the first time somebody realized it was artificial: of course it's artificial, look at the level of production it took to get everyone into the building in a position where they could see what was going on! Then, if you like what you're watching, keep watching it. It's really that simple.

If what kills your interest in wrestling is nostalgia for when you used to be a mark, maybe it's time to start acting like a mark again? Stop worrying about how many stars somebody gave something and just react organically to what you're watching.

[PeterHilton]

Not to sound crotchety and old but, doesn't CHIKARA sort of use kayfabe?

To go along with what Stennick said, they are pretty close to what Self suggest in that the fans know "ok what's on screen is a story and it's fake..but we're going to treat it like it's real and be committed to that story while we're on-screen" but that's just while we're on screen.

[PeterHilton]

In fact some might say that it was BEHIND the times. By the time 1996 came along we already had 24 hour news, we already had the internet, we already had every single bit of information we needed on any one thing in a matter of moments.



A lot of THIS

The WWE is still struggling with how to use their website and o this day refuse to address internet news. Every other major sporting event on the planet uses live web interaction; it should be a no-brainer to have a running blog, exclusive web content, or at least some wrestlers tweeting during RAW.

At the very least, figure out how to get a proper fantasy league working. Yeesh.

[Stennick]

I have no idea why there isn't more exclusive web content.

A Few years ago I think they had stuff on their website during the commerical breaks, something along the lines of tune into WWE.com to see the show between the show but I would assume that has stopped.

As you said they have no fantasy league, nothing. Their M.O is to usually catch up to pop culture a few years after its happened and hold onto it a lot of years after its relevant.

[PeterHilton]

I remember they had some stuff on during breaks, but that went away w/o any real explanation (At the very least you should be able to see what's happening in the ring during commercials)

And they've tried fantasy leagues but they always sucked and made no friggin' sense.

It's like no one in the E has figured out how to make money off their web content so they just quit trying. it's kinda embarrassing that a company that big has no real multimedia presence. I mean ..they just barely got on board with youtube.

From that standpoint, TNA is much MUCH smarter.

[lazorbeak]

I have no idea why there isn't more exclusive web content.

A Few years ago I think they had stuff on their website during the commerical breaks, something along the lines of tune into WWE.com to see the show between the show but I would assume that has stopped.

As you said they have no fantasy league, nothing. Their M.O is to usually catch up to pop culture a few years after its happened and hold onto it a lot of years after its relevant.

They don't change because they don't have to change. They have the biggest library of wrestling content in the world, they have the most visited wrestling web-site in the world, they are so far and away #1 that until TNA can make a website that is not absolutely awful they won't feel the need to evolve. I mean their website isn't great but remember how much better WWF's site was compared with WCW's?

But I mean every guy on the roster has an "official" facebook/twitter/whatever pages. Why can't I access Shamus' WWE-sponsored facebook page and read his status updates about never going outside directly from WWE's site? I mean they could do superstar specific web-sites but honestly the single superstar web-page is already passe? Everybody already uses facebook, so just cross-promote through it.

I mean one of the greatest things about wrestling in the 90's is it was cool enough to cross over into mainstream culture, whereas now it seems to exist on its own little island, and as the rest of the world evolves, WWE's content exists in a vacuum outside of mainstream culture for the most part. I mean granted, Zack Ryder's gimmick was perfectly timed for generating heat (it appeared before the Jersey Shore, but showed a familiarity with the modern guido), but that's what, one hit in the past 2-3 years? I'll also give them credit for hitting the Paul Birchall gimmick at the right time, but they pulled the plug on it before it went anywhere. I mean certain gimmicks are timeless and the last thing the world needs is a diva doing a lady gaga gimmick while john cena wrestles the dude from Avatar (although that does sound like something WCW would have done with Sting in the early 90's), but on the whole, WWE's production seems to be operating a good 3-5 years behind pop culture, which is why pop culture doesn't go out of its way to get wrestlers involved in the mainstream the way it did for Austin and the Rock.

Going back to the website, why isn't there any journalism equal to what espn produces on their site for every sport on a weekly basis? How hard could it be to have something to say about wrestling? I mean I'm not saying you can't have garbage like this: http://www.wwe.com/inside/wwefeaturepage/features/stupiditylist/

That might entertain a 10 year old, but balance it out with some intelligently written editorial pieces. Why is Randy Orton the greatest champ of the modern era? Why Evan Bourne will never be a world champion. Stuff like that is guaranteed to piss off smarks, but it keeps them coming back to WWE's site. Make all the adware copy/paste sites obsolete, WWE!

[juggaloninjalee]

They don't change because they don't have to change. They have the biggest library of wrestling content in the world, they have the most visited wrestling web-site in the world, they are so far and away #1 that until TNA can make a website that is not absolutely awful they won't feel the need to evolve. I mean their website isn't great but remember how much better WWF's site was compared with WCW's?

But I mean every guy on the roster has an "official" facebook/twitter/whatever pages. Why can't I access Shamus' WWE-sponsored facebook page and read his status updates about never going outside directly from WWE's site? I mean they could do superstar specific web-sites but honestly the single superstar web-page is already passe? Everybody already uses facebook, so just cross-promote through it.

I mean one of the greatest things about wrestling in the 90's is it was cool enough to cross over into mainstream culture, whereas now it seems to exist on its own little island, and as the rest of the world evolves, WWE's content exists in a vacuum outside of mainstream culture for the most part. I mean granted, Zack Ryder's gimmick was perfectly timed for generating heat (it appeared before the Jersey Shore, but showed a familiarity with the modern guido), but that's what, one hit in the past 2-3 years? I'll also give them credit for hitting the Paul Birchall gimmick at the right time, but they pulled the plug on it before it went anywhere. I mean certain gimmicks are timeless and the last thing the world needs is a diva doing a lady gaga gimmick while john cena wrestles the dude from Avatar (although that does sound like something WCW would have done with Sting in the early 90's), but on the whole, WWE's production seems to be operating a good 3-5 years behind pop culture, which is why pop culture doesn't go out of its way to get wrestlers involved in the mainstream the way it did for Austin and the Rock.

Going back to the website, why isn't there any journalism equal to what espn produces on their site for every sport on a weekly basis? How hard could it be to have something to say about wrestling? I mean I'm not saying you can't have garbage like this: http://www.wwe.com/inside/wwefeaturepage/features/stupiditylist/

That might entertain a 10 year old, but balance it out with some intelligently written editorial pieces. Why is Randy Orton the greatest champ of the modern era? Why Evan Bourne will never be a world champion. Stuff like that is guaranteed to piss off smarks, but it keeps them coming back to WWE's site. Make all the adware copy/paste sites obsolete, WWE!

Great ideas for the website. Maybe you should try to get a job in WWE and then pitch that idea to them.

[Antithesis]

Oh GOD...I hate this answer. I really just hate it.

It's like going to people and saying that "you know what ruined music..those din-durn kids and their rock n roll music"

It's never going to be undone. Kayfabe could never exist today. And the fact that people even bring this up makes them sound like some crotchety old man.

EDIT: sure enough I go to the next page in the thread and the crotchety old guy agrees lol

Fellas...it's over. Kayfabe is dead. It's been dead for a good 20 years. There's no way kayfabe could exist any more...there's just too much information available to fans. The closest approximation would be Self's suggestion of running a promotion like a TV show, where you come out and admit that these are "actors" playing a "character" while they're on screen and that "on screen" is the only time you have to suspend your belief.

If not having kayfabe bothers you so much you should maybe get on the trolley and head downtown to see what's playing on the magic picture tube. :rolleyes:

I know kayfabe is dead, that is probably why I said I was too insulted to care any more about wrestling, meaning to care to watch.

And it isn't as simplistic as one's subjective choice. Breaking the fourth wall is fine for comedy. But you can't get a real emotional investment from someone when you turn around on the screen and give them a wink and tell them don't worry, nothing they are seeing is real. And then lacking that investment, why should a heterosexual male care about two sweaty, half naked men rolling around in a ring pretending to punch each other?

I'm not bitter btw. Fortunately for me there is MMA, and the fighters seem to be catching on to the idea of building 'heat' for fights. Hell, there is even reality TV, which of course is as big a work as pro wrestling, but those shows don't give the old 'wink wink nudge nudge' that drove me away from wrestling a decade ago.

[djthefunkchris]

I know kayfabe is dead, that is probably why I said I was too insulted to care any more about wrestling, meaning to care to watch.

And it isn't as simplistic as one's subjective choice. Breaking the fourth wall is fine for comedy. But you can't get a real emotional investment from someone when you turn around on the screen and give them a wink and tell them don't worry, nothing they are seeing is real. And then lacking that investment, why should a heterosexual male care about two sweaty, half naked men rolling around in a ring pretending to punch each other?

I'm not bitter btw. Fortunately for me there is MMA, and the fighters seem to be catching on to the idea of building 'heat' for fights. Hell, there is even reality TV, which of course is as big a work as pro wrestling, but those shows don't give the old 'wink wink nudge nudge' that drove me away from wrestling a decade ago.

No matter the opinion of other's, I still like a different approach in wrestling.

I wouldn't mind seeing one show focus on the tag division, another on the diva's, another on the main title, etc... Nothing wrong with throwing in other bouts, just saying the entire focus of the whole show should be one or two area's, not everyone at once. I would prefer it that way anyways. To me you could potentially make alot more stars, then just throwing dozens in the show and hoping someone catch's on.

I would also like the "finisher's" to mean a little more then they do now. At least for the one's they want to make a threat... They always start them off right, to build them up. Then they quickly get lost in the shuffle, as plans change. Vladimir to me could have been a much greater character, had they kept him strong as they had him to start with. Someone that if you passed/beat, would insure your ready for the top cards. They don't follow through, for whatever reasons.

These things are what I miss in the old days... Now, I like the Nexus move, and I like characters like Shaemus. I really think John Morrison is doing alot better then when I first seen him, as in... I think of him more as an adult then a child actor that can do a flip. I like CM Punk, and think he brings a little old school fun to the equation. Orton has finally won me over, etc. There are lots of things I feel they did eventually do right. I'm not knockin' the product at this time.... I'm just not buying that they were the number one promotion, when TV ratings and various other variable's shows they were not... The only time they were was AFTER the shady dealings....

I will agree that it was innovative at the time, and if other's would have caught on sooner maybe they would still be around. It was a bold move, and it was an unrespectfull move, but that's besides the point... it was going to happen sooner or later anyways. I don't dissagree with that, and I think Vince was very smart the way he done it... Doesn't mean I thought his wrestling was best... doesn't mean anyone did. Prior to the year Hogan joined WWF, before Wrestlemania, etc.. The company was just one of many, and they had to give up the time slot they bought from GCW because their ratings sucked in comparison.

You can keep skipping all of that, and go back to "But they did Wrestlemania!" and leave it at that... True, they did it, no one else did it. I can't deny them that, nor do I wish to. I'm just saying they weren't as "Special" to ME back then as people seem to think they must have been to get to the position they are now.

[PeterHilton]

Wow...you are TOTALLY just rambling now. That post was all over the place.

In the immortal words of Brian Fantana: Take It Easy Champ. Maybe You Should Stop Talking For a Little While.

[Gabbo]

Met Sheamus today at a signing. Nice fella. Took a photo, signed my DVD and the sleeve and shook his enormous hands. I'm not a small guy but Good Lord he was big.

The first wrestler signing I've been too. Been to the shows a few times, never hung round to meet the guys though.

But yeah, good day out. Enjoyed it.

[eayragt]

I don't know if this is even possible with 'Taker's injury, but if he comes back and wins the Rumble and then has a choice of facing Kane or Barrett for a title, I'll be a happy man. Apart from the not giving a new person a chance at winning the Rumble, but I think storyline it'd be perfect and we wouldn't instantly know who he'd challenge at WrestleMania.

[Gabbo]

I don't like the stip for SvS where Barrett wins and Cena is free. Maybe there's another twist in the works but I'd have liked Cena to help Barrett win and then become his personal bodyguard until Cena wins the Rumble.

At this point Barrett can't even fire Cena - the man is guaranteed a title shot at 'Mania. Much like Orton was in 2009 despite attacking the McMahons.

Cena picks Barrett, takes the title and Nexus disbands at WM26.

Really thought it was going to happen as well.

[eayragt]

I don't like the stip for SvS where Barrett wins and Cena is free. Maybe there's another twist in the works but I'd have liked Cena to help Barrett win and then become his personal bodyguard until Cena wins the Rumble.

At this point Barrett can't even fire Cena - the man is guaranteed a title shot at 'Mania. Much like Orton was in 2009 despite attacking the McMahons.

Cena picks Barrett, takes the title and Nexus disbands at WM26.

Really thought it was going to happen as well.

Or Barrett wins the title, releases Cena... but he turns and joins Barrett!

One can dream. It wouldn't make sense for the 'E to do that, but I'd like it.

[masterded]

Or Barrett wins the title, releases Cena... but he turns and joins Barrett!

One can dream. It wouldn't make sense for the 'E to do that, but I'd like it.

My dream would be Cena takes out Orton and Barrett wins the title. After the match Cena shakes Barrett's hand and then takes him out. "Awesome" plays the Miz comes out beats Barrett and the night ends with The Miz and Cena Hugging. Sure it doesn’t add up at all and would never happen, but I would love it.

[eayragt]

My dream would be Cena takes out Orton and Barrett wins the title. After the match Cena shakes Barrett's hand and then takes him out. "Awesome" plays the Miz comes out beats Barrett and the night ends with The Miz and Cena Hugging. Sure it doesn’t add up at all and would never happen, but I would love it.

It wouldn't make sense, but it'd be just about the only way to turn Barrett face at the moment.

Not that making Barrett face would make any sense at all... and I'm not really sure how good a face he'd make anyway.

[ampulator]

It wouldn't make sense, but it'd be just about the only way to turn Barrett face at the moment.

Not that making Barrett face would make any sense at all... and I'm not really sure how good a face he'd make anyway.
Actually, the way I want to see it is, Cena does what Barrett tells him, but does so unwillingly. Barrett wins the match, and Cena is free. However... "AWESOME" plays out, and Cena then screws Barrett, and the Miz wins the title.

However, that would turn the Miz face. I'm not sure they want that.

[Gabbo]

I've always seen the MITB as a cheap way of injecting some excitement into the heavyweight title picture and right now they don't need it. They're actually writing an interesting angle as it is.

If the WWE feels the same way Miz will probably get a 1 day reign sometime in Jan/February. Win it at a PPV and lose it the next night on Raw with the Champ using his rematch clause. It fits his character and gets him out of the main event for 'Mania.

[Hyde Hill]

Here is a version of NXT where you hear the producer instructions (Kevin Dunn) during the whole thing. Nice inside look.

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjE5ODQzNjEy.html

Props apparently go to Ashton Rockford on facebook for finding the Japanese version and giving it to Mondaynight mayhem.

[brashleyholland]

I remember they had some stuff on during breaks, but that went away w/o any real explanation



Advertisers weren't happy with the programme they had purchased advertising slots with pushing it's viewers to log on to the internet during breaks, rather than keeping their eyes on the ads.

The UFC have a novel way of getting around this by selling 'blocks' of time to a single advertiser, for example one full fight, which will be "brought to you without commercial interruption by X sponsor"

[ChrisKid]

UK RAW was kind of weird why not have Man U vs Man City instead the beat Liverpool (the greatest football club on earth) especially since tomorrow it's Manchester derby (maybe i'm looking to far into this)

[ampulator]

UK RAW was kind of weird why not have Man U vs Man City instead the beat Liverpool (the greatest football club on earth) especially since tomorrow it's Manchester derby (maybe i'm looking to far into this)
It was also weird, because UK is like Canada in one way - the IWC smarks come out in huge numbers. Booed Cena, cheered Miz. Orton got a HUGE reaction.

[Self]

UK RAW was kind of weird why not have Man U vs Man City instead the beat Liverpool (the greatest football club on earth) especially since tomorrow it's Manchester derby (maybe i'm looking to far into this)

I figure that Man Utd were the babyfaces, so you needed a 'heel' football team for Maryse & co to dress up as. In Machester, Liverpool would be more heel-ish, whereas Manchester City would be another set of babyfaces.

[EddieFnG]

And for the majority of people who watch, Americans, they'll recognize Liverpool (especially with the new owners) where as a Man City shirt would just go straight over their head.

[dvdWarrior]

I have a feeling there won't be any traditional Survivor Series matches at Survivor Series this year, but you never know.

Not a bad Raw, but it just wasn't the same without Pee-Wee.

:(

[SaySo]

Team Sheamus -vs- Team Morrison or Santino. That's my prediction for a Survivor Series match.

Old School Raw is next week. They are using this logo from the ads:

http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens2324256_1228743221WWF_logo.jpg

- Next week's episode of WWE Monday Night Raw will be a three hour show, and have an "Old School" theme. Set to appear on the show are the following legends…

* Sgt. Slaughter
* Dusty Rhodes
* Jimmy Snuka
* Roddy Piper
* The Iron Sheik
* Hacksaw Jim Duggan
* Nikolai Volkoff
* Gene Okerlund
* Irwin R Shyster
* Ted DiBiase
* Arn Anderson

[juggaloninjalee]

Team Sheamus -vs- Team Morrison or Santino. That's my prediction for a Survivor Series match.

Old School Raw is next week. They are using this logo from the ads:

http://i3.squidoocdn.com/resize/squidoo_images/-1/lens2324256_1228743221WWF_logo.jpg

- Next week's episode of WWE Monday Night Raw will be a three hour show, and have an "Old School" theme. Set to appear on the show are the following legends…

* Sgt. Slaughter
* Dusty Rhodes
* Jimmy Snuka
* Roddy Piper
* The Iron Sheik
* Hacksaw Jim Duggan
* Nikolai Volkoff
* Gene Okerlund
* Irwin R Shyster
* Ted DiBiase
* Arn Anderson

As long as the Iron Shiek doesn't cut any promos on Hulk Hogan and about how he is going to rape him it should be fun to remember the older days of the WWF.

[TheKenwyne]

I have a feeling there won't be any traditional Survivor Series matches at Survivor Series this year, but you never know.

Not a bad Raw, but it just wasn't the same without Pee-Wee.

:(

Santino/Kozlov/Sheamus made up for it. First time I've really laughed at wrestling for a while.

[Stennick]

As long as the Iron Sheik cuts a promo on Hulk Hogan about how he is going to rape him it should be fun to remember the older days of the WWF.

fixed

[juggaloninjalee]

Something I was thinking about today... who could the Raw GM be? Well I think it is Linda McMahon.

She messed with so many people because they all played a part in ruining her running for Governer of CT. Plus she is a McMahon and all of them are heels.

Anyone think it could be her or Shane storyline wise?

[Stennick]

Its not Shane, he's not employed by the company and he's the CEO of China Broadband Inc who's HQ is in Boulder, Colorado. He's not leaving that job to come back to the WWE and be a GM.

As for Linda I seriously doubt its Linda. She hasn't appeared on television since what 2005 and I think its widely recognized even by her that she's not cut out for the entertainments side of her business. Linda is most comfortable on the business end and I don't see her wanting or being comfortable with being in front of a live audience every week being some authority figure.

Seriously at this point I don't think the WWE know who they want to be the GM and it will likely not be revealed until their ready to blow off the angle anyway.

That being said its not going to be Shane or Linda McMahon for the reasons I stated above.

[lazorbeak]

That would be a pretty terrible pay-off because Linda has no charisma and the fans don't really have any reason to dislike her. She hasn't appeared on WWE TV in years, and when she did appear, she was probably the only McMahon who worked exclusively as a babyface, always reigning in Vince by doing something to keep him from getting too crazy.

Shane or Steph would have the benefit that both can actually cut promos, and while they haven't appeared often, they were on TV as recently as last year during the replacement GM period of Raw and the Orton/Triple H feud, and can actually draw heat as heels. The downside is it's always the McMahons behind these types of mystery angles.

On the one hand, I'd like for somebody new like JBL or The Rock or some other former superstar not working for TNA, but it seems like the easiest pay-off is a McMahon or Triple H, babyface GM. I mean the McMahon-Helmsley era was a decade ago.

[Imarevenant]

As long as the Iron Shiek doesn't cut any promos on Hulk Hogan and about how he is going to rape him it should be fun to remember the older days of the WWF.

For me that would be the highlight of the show :p


And a big hell yeah to IRS, love that guy.

[SaySo]

Where was The Iron Sheik during the Attitude Era? He could have been a perfect manager for an anti-American coalition.

[sabataged]

Its not Shane, he's not employed by the company and he's the CEO of China Broadband Inc who's HQ is in Boulder, Colorado. He's not leaving that job to come back to the WWE and be a GM.

As for Linda I seriously doubt its Linda. She hasn't appeared on television since what 2005 and I think its widely recognized even by her that she's not cut out for the entertainments side of her business. Linda is most comfortable on the business end and I don't see her wanting or being comfortable with being in front of a live audience every week being some authority figure.

Seriously at this point I don't think the WWE know who they want to be the GM and it will likely not be revealed until their ready to blow off the angle anyway.

That being said its not going to be Shane or Linda McMahon for the reasons I stated above.


I think it is obviously going to be Michael Cole when its all said and done. He is getting over huge with the gimmick and the heel turn. He does the annonymous thing to keep from being assaulted. If not I think Triple H or even maybe just Vince McMahon actually.

If they ended up signing someone like Nash or whoever I could see it being them. The logic isn't there but hell since when do we use logic.

[ampulator]

Its not Shane, he's not employed by the company and he's the CEO of China Broadband Inc who's HQ is in Boulder, Colorado. He's not leaving that job to come back to the WWE and be a GM.

As for Linda I seriously doubt its Linda. She hasn't appeared on television since what 2005 and I think its widely recognized even by her that she's not cut out for the entertainments side of her business. Linda is most comfortable on the business end and I don't see her wanting or being comfortable with being in front of a live audience every week being some authority figure.

Seriously at this point I don't think the WWE know who they want to be the GM and it will likely not be revealed until their ready to blow off the angle anyway.

That being said its not going to be Shane or Linda McMahon for the reasons I stated above.
I agree. Besides, this is one of those angles that fans aren't exactly clamoring for the conclusion to. They might dislike the GM, but they don't necessarily care enough to want to end immediately.

I think it is obviously going to be Michael Cole when its all said and done. He is getting over huge with the gimmick and the heel turn. He does the annonymous thing to keep from being assaulted. If not I think Triple H or even maybe just Vince McMahon actually.

If they ended up signing someone like Nash or whoever I could see it being them. The logic isn't there but hell since when do we use logic.

If it's Cole, I wouldn't be surprised, but it's just too... obvious.

[dvdWarrior]

Obvious or not, I'd just about bet the farm it ends up being Cole. It just seems like such a natural fit. If not him, I'd say Jim Ross or someone, but my money's on Cole.

[ampulator]

Obvious or not, I'd just about bet the farm it ends up being Cole. It just seems like such a natural fit. If not him, I'd say Jim Ross or someone, but my money's on Cole.
If it were Jim Ross, I would be suprirsed. The guy's just a natural babyface.

[supershot]

The guy's just a natural babyface.

The GM hasn't done all that many things to be a flat out heel. Actually I cant remember anything that was heelish. They only came off as heelish because it was something done to a face.

In my opinion the GM a tweener if anything.

[juggaloninjalee]

GM has to be a heel because it ordered John Cena to serve a heel stable and do EVERYTHING they say. Then made Cena the guest referee tipping the match in favor of the heel group on purpose.

Also if it is Cole then how did the Miz on this past RAW just talk to Michael Cole about being on Ortons team in the main event?

Why would the Raw GM give Daniel Bryan a title shot at the Miz and give Daniel Bryan good opportunities if it was Michael Cole?

To me Cole doesn't add up.

[MrOnu]

The RAW GM is obviously a monkey picking ideas out of a hat ! Now THAT is 21st century entertainement. :D

[TheKenwyne]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEorZmM7t58

I don't know how to do this here fancy embedding... but I feel you should see this.

William Regal: Class act and scary talented worker. Thank you for the memories, friend, if this indeed your last hurrah.

:(

[supershot]

GM has to be a heel because it ordered John Cena to serve a heel stable and do EVERYTHING they say. Then made Cena the guest referee tipping the match in favor of the heel group on purpose.

Well in my opinion the GM was just enforced the promise John Cena made in that match. If Barret won and the GM enforced his side of the deal the GM would have done the same thing.

It seems the GM is being fair to both dispositions. I think they could have either a Face or Heel play the role and make it logical enough for the WWE.

I think the GM comes off as a heel more so because Michael Cole is the messenger. I could totally see him being the GM tho.

[ChrisKid]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEorZmM7t58

I don't know how to do this here fancy embedding... but I feel you should see this.

William Regal: Class act and scary talented worker. Thank you for the memories, friend, if this indeed your last hurrah.

:(

damn :(

[djthefunkchris]

Pretty sure he just resigned a new contract for like, an outragious four years or something... Don't know if it's true or not but if so. Thankyou Sir William Regal.

[TheKenwyne]

Pretty sure he just resigned a new contract for like, an outragious four years or something... Don't know if it's true or not but if so. Thankyou Sir William Regal.

Could be for dev. work. He strikes as the kind of guy who'd be good at that.

[The Final Countdown]

Could be for dev. work. He strikes as the kind of guy who'd be good at that.
He did a good job helping develop that Daniel Bryan fella.

[ampulator]

The GM hasn't done all that many things to be a flat out heel. Actually I cant remember anything that was heelish. They only came off as heelish because it was something done to a face.

In my opinion the GM a tweener if anything.
My point still stands, though. JIm Ross is a natural babyface. He can't even be a tweener. Fans just like the guy.

[TheKenwyne]

He did a good job helping develop that Daniel Bryan fella.

Samoa Joe didn't turn out too bad either. And what about that CM Punk...

[supershot]

My point still stands, though. JIm Ross is a natural babyface. He can't even be a tweener. Fans just like the guy.

Yeah you have a good point. After it all blows over I don't think its going to end up being Jim Ross.

[The Final Countdown]

Samoa Joe didn't turn out too bad either. And what about that CM Punk...
Did Regal mentor those guys, too? I'd only heard about Danielson.

[20LEgend]

^^ Wiki thinks so

[iMac]

Did Regal mentor those guys, too? I'd only heard about Danielson.

He also had a few words of advice for Nigel McGuiness early in his career. Nigel spoke of it in an interview I read.

[SeanMcFly]

The RAW GM is obviously a monkey picking ideas out of a hat ! Now THAT is 21st century entertainement. :D

Or Manatees. ;)

[Clp605]

Or Manatees. ;)

Ha, I just saw that earlier. Anyway back on topic the RAW GM looks to be Cole... or with the shocking revelations of Regal's retirement he could be the GM again. Just throwing my idea out there.

[ampulator]

Yeah you have a good point. After it all blows over I don't think its going to end up being Jim Ross.
To add, they have made several failed attempts to turn him heel in the past. They all failed, mainly because... well, he had that righteous indignation about him. In other words, when he was claiming he was wronge,d fans agreed with him.

I remember when he kicked Cole in the privates, and the fans CHEERED. Granted, it was Cole, but kicking someone in the privates still quite rude. The fans LOVED Jim Ross. Hell, he said he had no loyalty to wWF in another failed heel turn, and the fans cheered.

[Candyman]

I really doubt the WWE has anybody in mind for the anonymous Raw GM right now, and I doubt they have any plans to reveal who it is or end the angle any time soon. And nor should they. It's working incredibly well, it gives Cole a purpose...why change? If it's not broke, don't fix it.

[The Final Countdown]

That computer is the biggest heel in WWE.

[djthefunkchris]

That computer is the biggest heel in WWE.

I think Vickie has any five people beat, easily... including the computer.

[alden]

I have enjoyed the attempts at the jr heel turns. When he brought in fake diseal and razor and built his own announcing desk infront of the other announcer table. Classic stuff........it failed but still very cool. I think he is just a natural face and people just can't hate him like others have said. What is there to hate about the guy to be honest?

[BurningHamster]

What is there to hate about the guy to be honest?

A few things. His obsession with high school football and the size of wrestlers (I watched an old Royal Rumble from the '90s and I lost count of how many guys were 6'6" 300lbs!). Overall he's the kind of guy fans respond well to but I'd be lying if I said there weren't moments when I thought he came off as bit of a jerk.

[alden]

He has a total football stance to be honest yes but you have to remember where he comes from. Okalohoma and texas are two big football states. Friday night lights are a part of the culture. His boomer sooner stuff is what he is known for. I think the only real way he could turn would be to praise texas and trash his beloved sooners. It would get him over in texas though. So it would have to be done correctly.

[Genadi]

Isn't it impossible to be a heel from the south whilst wearing a cowboy hat? If he lost that and replaced it with a Heyman like baseball cap and took on a Rich Man gimmick I think he'd be getting plenty of boos in no time.

The one guy I think should've been pushed hard as a heel was Benoit. He couldn't talk so give him a manager and push him like the rabid wolverine he is, only coming out of his cage to fight and rip guys a new one.

[ampulator]

Isn't it impossible to be a heel from the south whilst wearing a cowboy hat? If he lost that and replaced it with a Heyman like baseball cap and took on a Rich Man gimmick I think he'd be getting plenty of boos in no time.

The one guy I think should've been pushed hard as a heel was Benoit. He couldn't talk so give him a manager and push him like the rabid wolverine he is, only coming out of his cage to fight and rip guys a new one.
He WAS pushed as a heel. The problem was, Benoit wasn't gimmicky enough. He was pretty menacing for a guy his size, which they eventually capitalized on, but that's about it.

[djthefunkchris]

Isn't it impossible to be a heel from the south whilst wearing a cowboy hat? If he lost that and replaced it with a Heyman like baseball cap and took on a Rich Man gimmick I think he'd be getting plenty of boos in no time.

The one guy I think should've been pushed hard as a heel was Benoit. He couldn't talk so give him a manager and push him like the rabid wolverine he is, only coming out of his cage to fight and rip guys a new one.

Your scaring me with this kind of talk... After all, I'm patiently awaiting your 1987 mod....

[lazorbeak]

Yeah Benoit was in the world title picture as a heel from 2000 to 2001 when he joined up with Jericho to feud with heel Austin. Aside from his reign as champion on Raw, it was probably as hard as he was ever pushed.

And Shane McMahon was his manager.

[sebsy]

I'd say it's pretty much 50/50 as to whether or not they actually know who the anonymous gm is going to end up being, if not 50/50 then more towards the end of them not having a clue.

The only thing is, it has to be a heel whoever it is. It won't make sense now for it to be someone like Austin, Shawn Michaels or anyone like that.

The things the gm has said that I remember, in particular when he bad mouthed Bret Hart would make it silly for it to end up being someone like Austin/HBK/Jim Ross. I just can't honestly think of who it could realistically be although for now it's doing its job getting everyone to hate Michael Cole. It could actually be him.

[BHK1978]

Saw this on wrestlezone.com:

The Wrestling Observer is reporting that WWE is set to release a "Top 50 Superstars of All-Time" DVD and the following list of names has been revealed for the disc:

1. Shawn Michaels
2. The Undertaker
3. Steve Austin
4. Bret Hart
5. The Rock
6. Harley Race
7. Ricky Steamboat
8. Andre the Giant
9. Rey Mysterio.
10. Roddy Piper
11. Eddie Guerrero
12. Triple H
13. Gorgeous George
14. Randy Savage
15. Curt Hennig
16. John Cena
17. Ric Flair
18. Dusty Rhodes
19. Edge
20. Jerry Lawler
21. Lou Thesz
22. Terry Funk
23. Hulk Hogan
24. Bruno Sammartino
25. Chris Jericho
26. Ted DiBiase
27. Fabulous Moolah
28. Freddie Blassie
29. Randy Orton
30. Pat Patterson
31. The Iron Sheik
32. Jimmy Snuka
33. Mick Foley
34. Kurt Angle
35. Buddy Rogers
36. Gorilla Monsoon
37. Junkyard Dog
38. Billy Graham
39. Jake Roberts
40. Big Show
41. Jack Brisco
42. Sgt. Slaughter
43. Kane
44. Nick Bockwinkel
45. Jeff Hardy
46. Dory Funk Jr.
47. Bob Backlund
48. Rick Rude
49. Batista
50. Killer Kowalski

First things first, if this list is in order it is a joke. Nobody can tell me that Shawn Michaels would rank the highest on this list. Yes he is probably one of the top workers on the list but he was never a household name like Hogan or The Rock.

I understand why Sting did not make the list because he was working for TNA at the time. That being said Mick Foley, Hulk Hogan and Kurt Angle made the list and they were/are working for TNA. And there is no way Kane, Sgt. Slaughter or JYD were bigger superstars than Sting.

And one cannot make the arguement that Sting never worked for him and that is why he is not there. Because to my knowledge neither did Lou Thesz or Nick Bockwinkel (in a wrestling sense I know he works for their OnDemand channel.).

[crownsy]

Doubt the list is in order, too many "huh?" guys in the top twenty who should be in the lower 25, and vice versa.

I could see HBK at the top. They can't really put hogan there, he works for a rival company atm, i see them putting hogan 2 or 3rd, and probably putting austin in the top 3 as well.

[ampulator]

I would put Flair on top, Hogan 2nd, Austin 3rd. It's all debatable, though, really.

[The Final Countdown]

When 'Naitch retired, they heralded him as the unquestioned best ever. Now, he's #17. Wonder why....:rolleyes:

(Assuming this is in order, of course.)

[PeterHilton]

First off...if it's in order it's a total joke.

Hogan shouldn't drop below 3rd; without him the WWF doesn't have nearly the same amount of success as they did in the 80s.

And these WWE DVDs always have wonky criteria so I can totally see them excluding Sting because he never worked there.

And unless it's a list that leans heavily on "work rate" and "in ring" Flair really doesn't deserve to be in the top 5...from a popularity/drawing power/household name standpoint the top of the list should be some mix of Hogan/Andre/Taker/Rock/Austin/Cena with Ric just outside that.

[Basmat01]

I LMAO when I saw Rey Mysterio at ninth

Was is Batista even on that list?

[BurningHamster]

I'm assuming it's not in order but knowing WWE, you never can tell.

I am not sure if there is anything people will disagree more on than a list.

[ampulator]

First off...if it's in order it's a total joke.

Hogan shouldn't drop below 3rd; without him the WWF doesn't have nearly the same amount of success as they did in the 80s.

And these WWE DVDs always have wonky criteria so I can totally see them excluding Sting because he never worked there.

And unless it's a list that leans heavily on "work rate" and "in ring" Flair really doesn't deserve to be in the top 5...from a popularity/drawing power/household name standpoint the top of the list should be some mix of Hogan/Andre/Taker/Rock/Austin/Cena with Ric just outside that.
All except John Cena, I would say. There's no way he's above Flair overall.

[PeterHilton]

All except John Cena, I would say. There's no way he's above Flair overall.

Listen, I love Ric. He's a world beater in the ring, one of the greatest performers of all time, and easily on of the most entertaining talkers I've heard in any form of entertainment industry.

But Cena's been THE biggest star in wrestling since like 05...he's been a headliner at six straight WM's...he's generated more revenue for the company in merchandise alone than some of those guys (like Bret, Nash, Guerrero) did as complete draw... when he's done the "height" of his popularity will have lasted longer than everyone except for Hogan and *maybe* Taker (depending on how you judge his height)..

Just MO...but wrestling is a work which means the most important criteria for judging a talent is Can They Draw? And Cena has been the biggest draw in the WWE for a very long time and that counts for more - to me - than any kind of critical acclaim Flair gets

[Wrestling Century]

Wait a minute! Sting and Vader aren't on this list? Those are two of my favorite wrestlers of all time! IMO both of those wrestlers are way better than Batista.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Isn't it impossible to be a heel from the south whilst wearing a cowboy hat?

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/wp-content/migration/images/jbl.jpg

[lazorbeak]

Yeah it's a list of who's on a DVD, folks. Not an exhaustively calculated ranking in order of relative importance. Just look at it. Where was this outrage when Billy Kidman appeared on a "best of the cruiserweights" dvd?!

[Jaysin]

Yeah it's a list of who's on a DVD, folks. Not an exhaustively calculated ranking in order of relative importance. Just look at it. Where was this outrage when Billy Kidman appeared on a "best of the cruiserweights" dvd?!

Did you watch WCW? He had a ton of great cruiserweight matches.

[lazorbeak]

Did you watch WCW? He had a ton of great cruiserweight matches.

Your humor detector may be broken. :(

[Jaysin]

Your humor detector may be broken. :(

It may be...I've had a total of 3 hours of sleep since Thursday and yeah, its broked :o

[Tha Black Phenom]

I honestly doubt it's in order. It sounds like it's just gonna be a countdown throughout the DVD, going on superstar after superstar and that they'll finish it off with Shawn Michaels. There is no way WWE could ever accumulate such a list without getting blasted in the ass by everyone on all sides.

I honestly doubt they spent a lot of time thinking and debating over this just to release a quick list for an upcoming DVD release without any explanation, reasoning or not even mention the criteria which they base the order on.

[ampulator]

Listen, I love Ric. He's a world beater in the ring, one of the greatest performers of all time, and easily on of the most entertaining talkers I've heard in any form of entertainment industry.

But Cena's been THE biggest star in wrestling since like 05...he's been a headliner at six straight WM's...he's generated more revenue for the company in merchandise alone than some of those guys (like Bret, Nash, Guerrero) did as complete draw... when he's done the "height" of his popularity will have lasted longer than everyone except for Hogan and *maybe* Taker (depending on how you judge his height)..

Just MO...but wrestling is a work which means the most important criteria for judging a talent is Can They Draw? And Cena has been the biggest draw in the WWE for a very long time and that counts for more - to me - than any kind of critical acclaim Flair gets
Here's the problem, though, with that listen. Steamboat above Flair? Really? If you are talking about drawing power and money, then Flair made people more money than Steamboat did.

And I love Steamboat, and I prefer him over Flair. but even I recgonize that he's above Steamboat... and John Cena. Does he draw money? Yes. But comparatively speaking, what he's done is unimpressive to me. Even when comes to drawing money. He needs to be drawling a lot more to impress me.

[alden]

I think it is a shame sting is not on the list because to be honest he was the savage of the wcw *the number two draw after flair, where savage was the number two draw after hogan*. Sting does not get all the props he should get from people.

HBK will be near the top of the list but i see it being either taker or austin. Hogan will not be number one because of his work with tna.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Someone should start a thread where we all submit our own top 10 or 20... Then we compile those lists to make a GDS Top 50 of All Time. By using who recieved the most votes.

[ampulator]

Someone should start a thread where we all submit our own top 10 or 20... Then we compile those lists to make a GDS Top 50 of All Time. By using who recieved the most votes.
It's going to be weird, because it will have to be a ranked voting system of some kind, ala, STV.

I think it is a shame sting is not on the list because to be honest he was the savage of the wcw *the number two draw after flair, where savage was the number two draw after hogan*. Sting does not get all the props he should get from people.

HBK will be near the top of the list but i see it being either taker or austin. Hogan will not be number one because of his work with tna.

I think Sting belongs in the list, and that Hogan deserves the top spot. The guy was good performer when he had to be pre-WWF. His matches with Andre in Japan were pretty good for what they were. On a related note, Andre could sell. Hell, if his matches against the Warrior didnt' prove it, I don't know what will.

[BHK1978]

It's going to be weird, because it will have to be a ranked voting system of some kind, ala, STV.



I think Sting belongs in the list, and that Hogan deserves the top spot. The guy was good performer when he had to be pre-WWF. His matches with Andre in Japan were pretty good for what they were.

Yes your top vote could be worth twenty points and then you work your way backwards. A thread like that could start a flame war, I mean look at how worked up people get in the NBA thread when you disagree with them about Phil Jackson.:D

[ampulator]

Yes your top vote could be worth twenty points and then you work your way backwards. A thread like that could start a flame war, I mean look at how worked up people get in the NBA thread when you disagree with them about Phil Jackson.:D
Heh, there's enough of that on here about the futrure of the WWE and John Cena. :p

[alden]

andrea could sell like no others. To be honest there is nothing a person could do to a person that size but people like hogan and warrior and even the heart foundation were able to go over him.

[ampulator]

andrea could sell like no others. To be honest there is nothing a person could do to a person that size but people like hogan and warrior and even the heart foundation were able to go over him.
I agree. For a man his size, he sold well. A lot of the heavier wrestlers can learn a thing or two about selling.

[Prophet]

andrea could sell like no others. To be honest there is nothing a person could do to a person that size but people like hogan and warrior and even the heart foundation were able to go over him.

I love the story that the Brain told about Andre on the Warrior DVD. When Warrior would go full boar into Andre with the clothesline, so Andre could tie himself in the ropes. And Andre kept telling him to take it easy, but Warrior wouldn't listen, until one night, when the Giant was sick of it. So when Warrior came rushing in at 100 miles an hour, Andre held out his fist, and dropped Warrior like a sack. Such a gentle, patient man that you'd never want to be on the wrong side of. lol

As for the list, my guess is the order is more how or when they were decided on. The group sat, said they were discussing the list, Hunter says Shawn's gotta be on, and everyone agrees. Someone else suggest Flair, and some agree, and some say "well, he's in TNA" so it's held off. Or a scenario that makes more sense when it pertains to people who live within the business.

When the DVD itself comes out, I'd bet dollars to donuts (mmm ... donuts ... *drools*) that #1 is gonna belong to Stone Cold. Somehow he seems to always top these GOAT lists anymore. At least when it pertains to the WWE.

[ampulator]

I love the story that the Brain told about Andre on the Warrior DVD. When Warrior would go full boar into Andre with the clothesline, so Andre could tie himself in the ropes. And Andre kept telling him to take it easy, but Warrior wouldn't listen, until one night, when the Giant was sick of it. So when Warrior came rushing in at 100 miles an hour, Andre held out his fist, and dropped Warrior like a sack. Such a gentle, patient man that you'd never want to be on the wrong side of. lol

As for the list, my guess is the order is more how or when they were decided on. The group sat, said they were discussing the list, Hunter says Shawn's gotta be on, and everyone agrees. Someone else suggest Flair, and some agree, and some say "well, he's in TNA" so it's held off. Or a scenario that makes more sense when it pertains to people who live within the business.

When the DVD itself comes out, I'd bet dollars to donuts (mmm ... donuts ... *drools*) that #1 is gonna belong to Stone Cold. Somehow he seems to always top these GOAT lists anymore. At least when it pertains to the WWE.
Austin deserves that spot too, but I don't think, as much as Hogan does. and I LOVE Stone Cold. But Hogan's pre-WWF career was way more storied, and he literally helped Vince make the WWF what it was in the 80's.

Austin did something similar, but it's hard to say his post-WWE or pre-WWF career was all that impressive. He was a journeyman wrestler until he became Stone Cold Steve Austin. Hogan had a lot more success before the WWE and after it.

Again, I have to say this... I prefer Stone Cold over Hulk Hogan. But Hogan's just that important. He was one of the key, if not, the key wrestlers that changed the definining product of wrestling. Instead of focusing on old-school, traditional style of wrestling, it ws transitioned into a more "sports entertainment" style of wrestling more digestable for the masses (at the time).

That's not something even Austin can claim to do.

[Prophet]

I think it depends on what criteria you're using. The three names that most people seem to circle around are Hogan, Flair, and Austin. And depending on the list, all three can be the number one of the group. The differences is in which way they'd outrank the others, in my opinion.

With Flair, he's the standard. When it comes to success, no matter where he's gone, or who he's faced, or what have you, inside the ring, Flair has been, pardon the pun, the man. And at a time when most people only knew the local guys who were busting their humps at the county fair down the road, almost everyone knew the name of Flair.

Then there's Hogan. Hogan doesn't have as many accolades, per say, but where Hogan leads is that he's the icon. He was the face of the world of wrestling when it became a world of wrestling. Hogan made wrestling mainstream, and that alone is enough for him to be appreciated as the greatest of all time.

Austin's different. Austin was the beneficiary. By the time the Ringmaster became Stone Cold, wrestling was in a boom, and he became the focal point. He capitalized on opportunity. He fits in a nice little niche between Flair and Hogan, depending on which way you're listing ... however, Austin gets a nod because he's something of a Renaissance man. Austin helped create a new direction, which helped wrestling thrive. I believe financially Austin edges Hogan, although I could be wrong on that. Either way, it's fairly close, and it's because of his influence on wrestling at the time, and even to some extent, now.

And I say all of that based on perception of what I grew up with, but if it was my personal list, Savage would be at the top. He may not top any of those three in any of those categories, but when I watched Savage wrestle, I always felt like I saw something special. Even when it was a devenomed snake sucking on his bicep. lol

[lazorbeak]

Yes your top vote could be worth twenty points and then you work your way backwards. A thread like that could start a flame war, I mean look at how worked up people get in the NBA thread when you disagree with them about Phil Jackson.:D

Is "flame war" some new expression for a reasonable disagreement? I don't think anyone was hostile or insulting, people just disagreed with you. :p

[PeterHilton]

Here's the problem, though, with that listen. Steamboat above Flair? Really? If you are talking about drawing power and money, then Flair made people more money than Steamboat did.

And I love Steamboat, and I prefer him over Flair. but even I recgonize that he's above Steamboat... and John Cena. Does he draw money? Yes. But comparatively speaking, what he's done is unimpressive to me. Even when comes to drawing money. He needs to be drawling a lot more to impress me.

I didn't say anything about the list posted ..i Said MY top 5. Steamboat wouldn't even crack my top 15.

And i don't know what to tell you on Cena. You've pretty much proven you're a "crazy internet smark" with previous posts; if you're not "impressed" by someone who's been the biggest draw in wrestling for the last 6 years, it's really not that surprising.

[PeterHilton]

Austin deserves that spot too, but I don't think, as much as Hogan does. and I LOVE Stone Cold. But Hogan's pre-WWF career was way more storied, and he literally helped Vince make the WWF what it was in the 80's.

Austin did something similar, but it's hard to say his post-WWE or pre-WWF career was all that impressive. He was a journeyman wrestler until he became Stone Cold Steve Austin. Hogan had a lot more success before the WWE and after it.

Again, I have to say this... I prefer Stone Cold over Hulk Hogan. But Hogan's just that important. He was one of the key, if not, the key wrestlers that changed the definining product of wrestling. Instead of focusing on old-school, traditional style of wrestling, it ws transitioned into a more "sports entertainment" style of wrestling more digestable for the masses (at the time).

That's not something even Austin can claim to do.

Totally agree with this. Austin may have drawn bigger house and PPV numbers at his height, but if you look back at it now...he's had nowhere near the lasting effect that Hogan did and he had nowhere near the impact on pop culture and the mainstream that Hogan or even The Rock did.

Austin was awesome but as time has passed he looks more and more like his popularity was a fad

[Stennick]

I agree with this completely, by the time 2004 came around and Austin was rolling on ATV's nobody cared. Austin was the most over guy in the company from about 98-2000ish. Even before WMX7 Rock was arguablly more over than Austin.

The guy had about three or four really good years and then that was it.

Why did Austin make more money than Hogan? Because during Austin's height of popularity there were three main stream cable television shows, he had about ten different shirts out at once, and when Hogan was at his height they had WM, Summerslam and Survivor Series three ppv's a year. When Austin was at his height they had FOUR times that amount. So every year Austin was main eventing he was main eventing four times as many pay per views as Hogan did in a single year. You add that up over three or four years and thats a pretty large gap.

Not too mention there was no such thing as pay per view for the first few Wrestlemania's let alone buyrates. And Merchandise? Hogan had one shirt and that bear. Sure he had other stuff with his name on it but not near what Austin or even mid carders in the WWF had during Austin's stint.

Steve Austin was a product of the late ninties teenage rebellion. He played his part well but I don't think the wrestling world will have the same love for Austin as it does Hogan.

Hulk Hogan returned to the WWE has a heel after 13 years and couldn't even cut a promo the first few appearances he had because the crowd just refused to boo him. If Austin came back as a face right now I don't think he would get that kind of reaction.

Really even a conversation for Flair as the number one wrestler is a weak conversation. Ric Flair was a big fish in a small pond. He wasn't near as recognized as Hulk Hogan, he didn't draw near the money as Hulk Hogan. The only thing he has over Hogan is people think he was a better wrestler. Although again thats the internet talking and believing that a thousand moves owns three moves. Even though Hogan got a bigger reaction with those three moves than anyone in the history of pro wrestling so really isn't that what its about?

Anyway Hogan is the greatest pro wrestler of all time atleast in its current form. You can't go back much farther than the sixties because it was a different animal so guys like Ed Lewis, Thesz, Gorgeous George can't be taken into consideration.

Oh and by the way I know saying this nearly implodes the internet but John Cena is a top five wrestler of all time.

In fact my top five would be Hulk Hogan, Ric Flair, The Rock, Steve Austin and John Cena. Thats the top five biggest and therefore best pro wrestlers of all time. Honorable mention to Sting for drawing a massive buyrate without ever saying a word for an entire year. Although thats one year, I need more than one buyrate to annoint someone a top five.

[PeterHilton]

Tremendous post.

Even if my top 5 isn't your exact top 5, that's my reasoning.

Wrestling is a work; the one criteria that really matters is the ability to make money. That list that's being done on these boards is going to look like one of those lists that Rolling Stone magazine does of 'The Best Bands of All Time' where the top 10 are mostly really famous and then there's one wildly obscure act no one heard of.

Other things matter...there are personal favorites i have that weren't great draws..but if people didn't pay to watch you then you weren't really doing your job

[juggaloninjalee]

Are we compiling a top 5 list of all time? If so MY personal top 5 are...

REMOVED AND PUT IN GDS Top 50.

[Stennick]

2) Stone Cold Steve Austin - The face of the Attitude era. Probably my personal favorite wrestler based on how much I liked him. He had heel tendencies but people couldn't boo him. He had record breaking numbers for Wrestlemania and helped WWF become the #1 wrestling company again after WCW was kicking their butt in the ratings.

I wanted to put a tag team on the list but could only think of the Legion of Doom and I felt I may be a bit biased as they have always been my favorite tag team. Could have put the Rock on my top 5 list too but he was only a big WRESTLING star for less than 10 years and I felt longevity was kinda important.

Just curious as Steve Austin was only "Stone Cold" for roughly four or five years before retiring. He wrestled before that but he wasn't a draw by any shape of the imagination. The Rock became the Rock at nearly the exact same time Austin became Stone Cold and The Rock actually wrestled as The Rock longer (Austin retired at their WM match, Rock had a program with Goldberg as well as coming back at WMXX for a match).

I'm not saying anything negative it just struck me as weird you didn't put The Rock on the list for longetivity when in reality "The Rock" wrestled longer than "Stone Cold".

I don't think you can lend points to a guy who became big with one persona because of another persona.

Hogan doesn't get points for Sterling Golden or Terry Boulder, The Rock doesn't get points for Flex Kavana. So really Austin shouldn't get points for Stunning and Superstar.

Solid list no doubt most likely would have put Rock above Shawn Michaels since Shawn has actually as crazy as it is never drawn as a main event attraction. Part of that is he was on top during the WWE's lowest period and came back after the attitude era was over but none the less I don't think we can base any "would have beens" on anyone's resume.

Anyway it just struck me as weird that you mentioned The Rock's short time as a wrestler when he wrestled with that persona for longer than Austin wrestled with his Stone Cold persona. And really thats all that should matter right?

[juggaloninjalee]

Just curious as Steve Austin was only "Stone Cold" for roughly four or five years before retiring. He wrestled before that but he wasn't a draw by any shape of the imagination. The Rock became the Rock at nearly the exact same time Austin became Stone Cold and The Rock actually wrestled as The Rock longer (Austin retired at their WM match, Rock had a program with Goldberg as well as coming back at WMXX for a match).

I'm not saying anything negative it just struck me as weird you didn't put The Rock on the list for longetivity when in reality "The Rock" wrestled longer than "Stone Cold".

I don't think you can lend points to a guy who became big with one persona because of another persona.

Hogan doesn't get points for Sterling Golden or Terry Boulder, The Rock doesn't get points for Flex Kavana. So really Austin shouldn't get points for Stunning and Superstar.

Solid list no doubt most likely would have put Rock above Shawn Michaels since Shawn has actually as crazy as it is never drawn as a main event attraction. Part of that is he was on top during the WWE's lowest period and came back after the attitude era was over but none the less I don't think we can base any "would have beens" on anyone's resume.

Anyway it just struck me as weird that you mentioned The Rock's short time as a wrestler when he wrestled with that persona for longer than Austin wrestled with his Stone Cold persona. And really thats all that should matter right?

The Rocks career as a whole wasn't very long though. Austin had wrestler much longer than the Rock. I guess that was my reason. Plus maybe a bit biased as like I said Austin was my favorite wrestler at the time.

[Stennick]

Yeah thats fine a lot of guys on here are on the young side so their in the Bret Hart/Steve Austin era more than the Hogan era.

I think that would be the better route of an explanation "I like these five guys more" because the whole "Steve wrestled longer" doesn't really have much to do with anything. If anything wouldn't it be more impressive that The Rock became more popular than Steve Austin and ONLY wrestled for five years before going into Hollywood where he's now doing 100 million dollar box offices?

Anyway good list other than I wouldn't have put Shawn Michaels in the top five but hey this is all about who people like rather than who truly is the top guys so cheers on the list.

[Bigpapa42]

It saddens me that Bruno Sammartino gets so forgetten, relatively, anymore. The guy was Hogan before there was Hogan. When selling out areas was the primary measure of workers success, he owned the single most important arena in the wrestling world. He made fans care. He sold out Shea Stadium with a feud and he wasn't even champion. Obviously I understand that he was before our time for many of us, but the same can be said of Hogan for a lot of fans, yet the way that the WWE held (maybe not so much know that he's in TNA) Hogan in high regard helped the younger fans know. Because of Bruno's issues with Vince, that doesn't seem to happen in his case.

[PeterHilton]

It saddens me that Bruno Sammartino gets so forgetten, relatively, anymore. The guy was Hogan before there was Hogan. When selling out areas was the primary measure of workers success, he owned the single most important arena in the wrestling world. He made fans care. He sold out Shea Stadium with a feud and he wasn't even champion. Obviously I understand that he was before our time for many of us, but the same can be said of Hogan for a lot of fans, yet the way that the WWE held (maybe not so much know that he's in TNA) Hogan in high regard helped the younger fans know. Because of Bruno's issues with Vince, that doesn't seem to happen in his case.

QFT

That's it really...the WWE presents wrestling historically as if it started when the WWF went national and the Wrestlemania Era began.

I've said myself that it's incredibly hard to go back much further than that and make a fair comparison of the industry (that's why I just ignore Thesz references) but the E really should mention Bruno. He carried that company for the better part of a decade. It really must be a personal vendetta when guys like Harley Race (who, while great, did very little for the WWF)are brought onto TV as legends of the industry and Bruno never even gets a mention.

[juggaloninjalee]

It saddens me that Bruno Sammartino gets so forgetten, relatively, anymore. The guy was Hogan before there was Hogan. When selling out areas was the primary measure of workers success, he owned the single most important arena in the wrestling world. He made fans care. He sold out Shea Stadium with a feud and he wasn't even champion. Obviously I understand that he was before our time for many of us, but the same can be said of Hogan for a lot of fans, yet the way that the WWE held (maybe not so much know that he's in TNA) Hogan in high regard helped the younger fans know. Because of Bruno's issues with Vince, that doesn't seem to happen in his case.

I did think of putting Bruno in my top 20 but I don't know much about him at all. Maybe I will try to read up on him more in the future.

[Stennick]

While I'm not the biggest fan of Bruno there is no doubt he was a draw.

That being said I think he kind of did it to himself. He's been at odds with Vince since at the very least the early ninties and maybe before that.

I think its pretty well documented they have reached out to Bruno several times and tried to make him a part of what their doing and a part of their legacy but Bruno doesn't want anything to do with them.

He absolutely refuses to do business with Vince and I think in that regard its tough to really do much with a guy that wants nothing to do with you. Remember Hogan in WCW? He wasn't the "babe ruth" of wrestling when he was in WCW. He was the Huckster, remember Mean Gene? The guy that hosts these legend round tables and is so well respected by Vince and co now? Remember Scheme Gene?

I think if you're the WWF, or the NFL or my business that I own. If a former employee that you reach out to refuses to do business with you and on top of that lets the entire media world know that they want nothing to do with you then I don't see a reason to include them in things.

I love Bruno but I think he's a bit bitter than wrestling moved away from the in ring aspects that he was involved in and in a lot of regards passed him buy. You don't think he's a bit bitter that guys like Hogan and Austin pushed him out of the lime light? I think Bruno doesn't like the type of pro wrestling that is going on today and would much rather not be involved in it at all than to be invovled with something he doesn't enjoy.

I can't fault Bruno for that very few people in the world today would leave the money that Bruno would seemingly leave on the table by not doing SOME business with Vince. At the same time I can't fault fans or Vince for not anointing the guy as great that has publicly bashed you and refused to do any business with you what so ever.

I agree with Peter though if we go to Bruno then we have to go to Thesz, then we have to talk about Ray Stevens, Ed Lewis, Gorgeous George, how do you compare those guys to the guys of today? Its impossible, its like comparing 1890's baseball with 2010 its just not possible and really they deserve their own list.

[ampulator]

The reason why he isn't included, is because Vince has effectively erased from history. Not completely, but just enough. He was pre-TV, so they can ignore with little effect to the company.

The reason why they ignore is, because he bad-mouthed the company after he left. Was lot of the things he said were true? Yes. But he also sounded old-fashioned and part of a different era. He dissed the WWE, so the WWE disses him.

I think he's an okay guy, but some of why he's unregonized is caused by himself.

[PeterHilton]

I think he's an okay guy, but some of why he's unregonized is caused by himself.

I think it's actually totally his fault.

Bruno is obviously pretty bitter about the industry passing him by and he was critical of what the WWF became (which was ironic because in his prime he was criticized for being EXACTLY the type of worker Hulk was) but I guess i just have an issue with him being erased the way he has.

Yeah...they have no reason to build him up.But the man DID carry your company; it's pretty cheap to pretend it never happened. Like Shaq and the Lakers; he's been a tool ever since he left LA, but what do you do? Take the banners out of the rafters?

[Bigpapa42]

I understand why he's left out. I also get that going back gets tough. But Bruno's heyday was the 70s. Which in truth wasn't that different from the better part of the 80s in terms of how promotions functioned, the use of TV, the definition of a "draw"... Yeah, things get tougher as you go further back - the industry is a bit different and there is far less footage. But I do think that putting a cutoff point at the start of the 80s seems rather arbitrary.

The business side of excluding Bruno makes sense. It does. But it annoys me because it becomes pure revisionist history. I'm honesty not a huge Bruno fan in that sense, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for his place in the history of the business.

I guess part of why it bothers me is that Vince Jr built his success on the back of Bruno in a way. Not directly. But the success of Bruno Sammaritno in the 70s helped ensure New York was and remained a prime territory, profitable and appealing to talent. Take that away and I doubt that Vince Jr finds the same degree of success in trying to take things national in the mid 80s. The more I watch of old Sammartino footage, the more I believe that the Hogan babyface hero mold was based on him.

[PeterHilton]

I understand why he's left out. I also get that going back gets tough. But Bruno's heyday was the 70s. Which in truth wasn't that different from the better part of the 80s in terms of how promotions functioned, the use of TV, the definition of a "draw"... Yeah, things get tougher as you go further back - the industry is a bit different and there is far less footage. But I do think that putting a cutoff point at the start of the 80s seems rather arbitrary.

The business side of excluding Bruno makes sense. It does. But it annoys me because it becomes pure revisionist history. I'm honesty not a huge Bruno fan in that sense, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for his place in the history of the business.

I guess part of why it bothers me is that Vince Jr built his success on the back of Bruno in a way. Not directly. But the success of Bruno Sammaritno in the 70s helped ensure New York was and remained a prime territory, profitable and appealing to talent. Take that away and I doubt that Vince Jr finds the same degree of success in trying to take things national in the mid 80s. The more I watch of old Sammartino footage, the more I believe that the Hogan babyface hero mold was based on him.

Great post.

The 70s is probably as far back as I can look in doing comparisons and even then some of the southern regional stuff gets a little dicey..

But I completely agree with your main point about Bruno. It's the revisionism. And Vince needed NY..so again I agree with how important Bruno was.

And again..that unstoppable babyface hero..not only was it the mold for Hogan (like you said) but it's what they tried to re-create with Warrior and more successfully with John Cena. It's like Bruno is John Wayne in a world that seems to think that action movies started with Sylvester Stallone.

[Bigpapa42]

Thanks PH.

I realize that even style-wise, the 70s are a departure and that makes comparisons tougher. But I don't think the ring work of the 70s (for the most part) is any more radically different from the 80s and then 80s is from the 90s. If one is able to look at the 80s and 90s in comparable fashion, by taking the ring-work within the context of that era, I think the same thing can be done for the 70s.

As for the comparisons between Bruno and Hogan, I won't claim to have seen that much of Bruno's work. Maybe a few dozen matches, and mostly from the latter part of the 70s. I think the similarities go beyond the big babyface hero. It seems like Sammartino was willing to throw a cheap shot or even cheat a little to give one back to the heel. Hogan used to do that a ton during his WWF heyday. I had forgotten how often, until I went back and started rewatching a bunch of old matches. It was accepted - even approved - by fans because it was just giving the "bad guys" a tasste of their own medicine. It was a stark departure from Bob Backlund, who had this code of honor that basically kept him from taking an unfair advantage. I could be wrong, but it seems that what Hogan did was used by Bruno quite a bit too.

The movie star comparison is a nice one.

[PeterHilton]

Speaking of HOFers:

WWE has sent out letters to cities, announcing that they would be accepting bids for cities to host their physical Hall of Fame. It is noted that WWE is looking for a location partner that would help offset the cost of building and maintaining the facility. They are very early in the process, and according to a source in the company, they are looking at 2012-2013 at the earliest for the project. There is also the idea that they could regularly tape footage and wrap-arounds for the potential WWE Network at the location.

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/162067/WWE-News:-More-On-WWE-Hall-of-Fame,-Lawler-Update,-WWE-Promoting-Rocks-Next-Film,-More.htm

Interesting. I'm sure it will be torn apart by hardcore wrestling fans -and deservedly so, the WWE's HOF criteria is a bit of a joke - but it would probably be worth visiting.

[juggaloninjalee]

Speaking of HOFers:



http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/162067/WWE-News:-More-On-WWE-Hall-of-Fame,-Lawler-Update,-WWE-Promoting-Rocks-Next-Film,-More.htm

Interesting. I'm sure it will be torn apart by hardcore wrestling fans -and deservedly so, the WWE's HOF criteria is a bit of a joke - but it would probably be worth visiting.

I know they won't do it but Detroit needs a tourist attraction.

Realistic possibilities... NO IDEA! Vegas maybe?

[The Final Countdown]

I know they won't do it but Detroit needs a tourist attraction.

Realistic possibilities... NO IDEA! Vegas maybe?
I've read that Miami is interested. That might be a good fit, since lots of tourists flock to that area already.

[TheKenwyne]

I've read that Miami is interested. That might be a good fit, since lots of tourists flock to that area already.

New York would fit - it's historically significant to the promotion.

[Stennick]

Although it would be a joke as far as the inductions think of the cool stuff that we could see in there.

I'm personally more excited for their WWE Network. I think that will solve a lot of their broadcasting issues. If NXT were to get thrown off the air on regular cable just air it on the WWE Network. Maybe air the FCW shows, etc it could be a ton of fun to watch.

[Candyman]

I know they won't do it but Detroit needs a tourist attraction.

Realistic possibilities... NO IDEA! Vegas maybe?

It would be nice to have the Hall be somewhere that's significant to the history of WWE, and the Hulk/Andre slam (and all-time attendance record) alone makes Detroit significant. New York is the most logical location, as far as ties to the promotion go.

From what I've heard, they're more concerned with finding a city that will help pay to build and maintain it. Orlando was mentioned as a candidate, which is interesting given their ties to TNA. I would say Florida or California are both likely.

[Bigpapa42]

I'm thinking the cost of property in New York could be a detriment to having it there. To be honest, most majors cities are going to have some link they can use - a big show or match held there. But New York would best the most logical. I just don't see it for financial reasons.

[BHK1978]

It would be nice to have the Hall be somewhere that's significant to the history of WWE, and the Hulk/Andre slam (and all-time attendance record) alone makes Detroit significant. New York is the most logical location, as far as ties to the promotion go.

From what I've heard, they're more concerned with finding a city that will help pay to build and maintain it. Orlando was mentioned as a candidate, which is interesting given their ties to TNA. I would say Florida or California are both likely.

I would like it to be in New England, Philly or NYC as that was the original homebase of the promotion. However, I am not sure where they would put it and other than NYC none of the other places are thought of as being, for lack of better terms, sexy. I think it will probably end up in a warm place like you said. I heard Orlando was in the running, but the just not have the history there.

Which does not matter because whomever makes the best offer will get the HOF.

[Gabbo]

It saddens me that Bruno Sammartino gets so forgetten, relatively, anymore. The guy was Hogan before there was Hogan. When selling out areas was the primary measure of workers success, he owned the single most important arena in the wrestling world. He made fans care. He sold out Shea Stadium with a feud and he wasn't even champion. Obviously I understand that he was before our time for many of us, but the same can be said of Hogan for a lot of fans, yet the way that the WWE held (maybe not so much know that he's in TNA) Hogan in high regard helped the younger fans know. Because of Bruno's issues with Vince, that doesn't seem to happen in his case.

I've always considered the top 5 as Hogan, Sammartino, Austin, Rock and Cena.

Austin's ability to draw is significantly over-exaggerated. After the initial explosion of the adult orientated product circa 1998, PPV draws never really increased for the next two years under Austin's reign.

Interesting fact: during Austin's peak years 1998-2002 there were 5 Wrestlemania's and the highest drawing (PPV buyrate) one was WM2000. You know, the only in that period where he didn't appear.

The PPV's did increase in 2000 again, largely down to the Rock and his feud with Trips.

WrestleMania buyrates decreased steadily then until 2005 when Cena won the title for the first time. Cena > Austin? Hehe.

[BHK1978]

From wrestlezone.com:

Jim Ross and Stone Cold Steve Austin posted the following on their Twitter accounts in response to WWE revealing its list of the "Top 50 Superstars of All-Time," which will be featured in an upcoming DVD release:

Steve Austin wrote: "i dont know the criteria for the WWE top 50 list...but i disagree with 85% of it."

Jim Ross wrote: "Hogan & Rock not being in top 10 n wwe top 50 dvd shocked me. Is shock 2 strong a word? Everyones entitled 2 their opinion."

Jim Ross later wrote: "My bad on Rock's lofty rtg on wwe's top 50 dvd. Hulk should have been higher but argument can b made 4 others too. I liked the dvd. Buy it."

I guess we are not the only ones talking about it.

[PeterHilton]

From wrestlezone.com:



I guess we are not the only ones talking about it.

So everyone's assuming that's the list and the ranking?

And lol at JR backtracking so quickly.I'm sure he got the word from corporate not to badmouth the release and not to mention Hogan as being under-ranked.

[Stennick]

What does Ross even do for the company now days? I think he could have written a blank check to do pbp for TNA, I'm sure Tenay is thankful he didn't want to be associated with that embarrassment.

[The Celt]

Sexual Chocolate!!!!!!!!!!!!11

[The Final Countdown]

Oh god...not the Sexual Chocolate music. :rolleyes:

Also, how in the hell can they do an "old school" Raw and NOT have The Fink doing all the ring announcing? Especially since he still works for the company.

[borman_48]

yeah, I was sure when Roberts was talking to open the show, he was going to bring out Fink. But... I guess not. And I did get a good laugh out of all the kids in the front row now knowing what to think about Sexual Chocolate. :p

[The Celt]

It seemed to get over/be over...I heard some pretty loud "CHOC-LATE" chants from the crowd

[Comradebot]

Alright, I'm digging this so far. Tony Atlas just cracked me up with that randomness. How could Rocky Johnson not like the skin on the chicken? That's the best part!

[borman_48]

Fink!

[Slagaholic]

I think Vince McMahon is the biggest Brooklyn Brawler mark on the planet earth.

[borman_48]

I think Vince McMahon is the biggest Brooklyn Brawler mark on the planet earth.

And possibly the only.

Is it sad that I forgot Zeke still worked for WWE before he came out.

[Comradebot]

And possibly the only.

Is it sad that I forgot Zeke still worked for WWE before he came out.

Yes. His look alone (especially when he actually grows out the beard!) should make him a star.

[supershot]

My opinion in spoiler form below:

Coles The GM its official. I mean come on, he's the only guy in the world that would want to keep The Miz safe!

[Gabbo]

And possibly the only.

Isn't Pat Patterson his long time boyfriend, or ex? That's why he had such a lasting career as a jobber.

[Comradebot]

I just marked like I never marked before. I can die happy now.

[The Final Countdown]

Never thought I'd hear Cole say "Vintage George Steele!"

[foolinc]

The "blow off" to the Goldust/DiBiase feud and Damn segment made my night.

[The Celt]

"Get me a match with these Sl*ts!" Mae Young continues to live in infamy.

[angeldelayette]

Mae Young! BRILLIANT!

[SaySo]

Good Ole JR!

[supershot]

I found the reason to why WWE matches are so boring now days. They don't have passionate play by play like JR helping tell the story.

Really good Raw tonight. Anyone notice Rock's movie commercials airing either before or after commercial break?

Edit: LOL at Cole sleeping at the announce table!

[SaySo]

"Get me a match with these Sl*ts!" Mae Young continues to live in infamy.

I wonder if she gets future endeavored. Sponsors won't be happy about this one. E.g. Daniel Bryan necktie submission on the ring announcer.

[Johnny Fenoli]

JR being on my RAW right now has by it self made it 10 times better........ Please bring this man back.... SOOOOOOOOO much better than Cole.

[The Final Countdown]

Michael Cole has been annoying as heck during this match, but he gets credit from me for making a Genius reference.

[The Final Countdown]

Oh God...he's gonna lose the belt to Generic Ted, isn't he? :(

[Johnny Fenoli]

I'll personally give Vince a 100 bucks to get JR back on RAW.... anyone else wanna chip in to bribe him...?

[SaySo]

I'm fine with Cole personally. I consider myself a member of Cole Miners. He needs Josh Matthews to play alongside him rather than Jerry The King Lawler. Cole is just epic as a heel commentator. I became a fan on NXT. He's brilliant imo.

[supershot]

I'll personally give Vince a 100 bucks to get JR back on RAW.... anyone else wanna chip in to bribe him...?

Definitely. Even if its for a 1 off WrestleMania match.

I have no problem with Heel Cole, its just I dont want that in the booth. He takes away from the actual matches with his constant remarks. Thats fine for a color commentator but not for a play by play imo. Its like no ones calling the matches.

[Stennick]

I haven't watched an entire WWE match in forever but I just watched every move of this main event.

This was a good WRESTLING match. Fantastic even. I loved these two going at it and I want them to feud now.

Is this just an average WWE match these days or is this one of the best matches they have had on free television in a while?

Bryan just killed it during this match excellent match.

Edit: That wasn't the main event but it should have been.

EDIT EDIT: HOLY crap Piper looks OLD!

[brashleyholland]

EDIT EDIT: HOLY crap Piper looks OLD!

Damn. Not looking bad for a guy who's nearly 60 though!

[Stennick]

Yeah I mean he's not Flair old its just when I saw him last year he looked for lack of a better term "less old". Just one of those things you see the guy one time and he looks mostly how you remember you see him the next time and he's aged ten years.

Those last two segments on RAW tonight stopped it from being a boring, silly, throw away show and made me actually want to buy the pay per view. Piper, Barrett, Cena nearly sold me on that pay per view and I haven't watched RAW since John Cena first joined Nexus.

[The Celt]

Man, Piper MADE that final segment on RAW. He brought out that emotional all great angle need, he brought the reality, the magnitude of the storyline out. It's true, kayfabe wise if Cena hands Barrett the title he spits in the eye of oh so many legends he grew up worshipping. Why isn't there more of this wrestling damnit!?!?!

[The Final Countdown]

Those last two segments on RAW tonight stopped it from being a boring, silly, throw away show and made me actually want to buy the pay per view. Piper, Barrett, Cena nearly sold me on that pay per view and I haven't watched RAW since John Cena first joined Nexus.
Yeah, that was a really good closing segment. The Bryan/Swagger match was good, too. Pleasantly surprised to see Bryan get the win, but I'm afraid he's about to lose the US title to, IMO, the most boring dude in the WWE, Ted Jr.

[supershot]

Piper, Barrett, Cena nearly sold me on that pay per view and I haven't watched RAW since John Cena first joined Nexus.

Definitely agree with you. The last half hour or so was extremely good. All except for that RKO that Cena got up from literally 20 seconds later haha.

First Raw I actually sat threw in whole in probably a year and it was a 3 hour one at that!

[Comradebot]

I'm just gonna say it: best RAW I've seen in ages. I thought it'd be just some silly crap to basically exploit the legends for three hours, but... I was impressed. Some good matches, Nexus is as entertaining as ever, Kozlov and Santino have GREAT chemistry as a team (not to mention the singing of the Soviet national anthem!!!), Tony Atlas cracked me up, gotta good laugh out of Mae Young...

And the Cole/JR/King dynamic was golden. Pure freakin' gold. You can't put a price on the look on Cole's face while JR and the King ignored him. Heck, Cole is an excellent heel.

Again, great episode of RAW. The matches were given some proper attention, the angles were entertaining, and now I want to actually watch Survivor Series. WWE has really started to actually put some effort into the writing lately, me thinks. If nothing else, the Nexus storyline has been a good watch from the start.

Oh, and Alberto Del Rio. Future champ, calling it now.

[foolinc]

The Nexus/Cena/Orton angle has been one of the best storylines WWE has put out in a while, but that promo by Piper put it over the top.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Damn. Not looking bad for a guy who's nearly 60 though!

and recovering from cancer too right?

[Genadi]

He WAS pushed as a heel. The problem was, Benoit wasn't gimmicky enough. He was pretty menacing for a guy his size, which they eventually capitalized on, but that's about it.

I didn't say he wasn't and I disagree that he was pushed hard as a heel in the way I mentioned. He always played second fiddle to someone, even when World champ.

Your scaring me with this kind of talk... After all, I'm patiently awaiting your 1987 mod....

Of course, you know I'm always serious when I post here at GDS ;)

[ampulator]

I didn't say he wasn't and I disagree that he was pushed hard as a heel in the way I mentioned. He always played second fiddle to someone, even when World champ.



Of course, you know I'm always serious when I post here at GDS ;)
As much as I enjoyed his work, he just didn't fit very well, especially in the beginning. He was a work-rated based worker in a popularity-based promotion. What do you expect?

And two, he just couldn't adjust to a Mainstream style very well. Say what you will about Punk and Danielson... they have at least learned to somewhat adjust to a more Mainstream style. Benoit had an extremely difficult time doing so.

I'm not surprised he wasn't pushed so hard.

[Genadi]

As much as I enjoyed his work, he just didn't fit very well, especially in the beginning. He was a work-rated based worker in a popularity-based promotion. What do you expect?

I think you've been playing TEW too long :p Not everything's that cut and dry, especially in the wrestling industry. Benoit was more a victim of timing and circumstance than anything else imo. What you pointed out above does hold some truth but that's more of an issue with WCW and a whole other discussion.

I'm not surprised he wasn't pushed so hard.

Nor am I, he deserved better.

[Genadi]

http://www.411mania.com/siteimages/1115-the-rock-splash-1-credit_77142.jpg

:eek:

[Slagaholic]

There's no wellness policy in Hollywood baby!

[Prophet]

There's no wellness policy in Hollywood baby!

Think that's less a wellness issue, and more a "there's a live alien living under the skin of my shoulders" issue. Seriously, those things look ready to burst. lol

[Slagaholic]

He finally looks like his action figure.

[Genadi]

He finally looks like his action figure.

Now if only Bubba Ray could do that....

http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g55/Costnaza9/tfs2010_tna_pic13.jpg

[Tha Black Phenom]

Something I took from another forum, not to my credit

http://img574.imageshack.us/img574/6612/rockyjbi.jpg

http://img508.imageshack.us/img508/8889/tistarock.jpg

and even

http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/7373/dwaynewarrior.jpg

:p

[LoNdOn]

Mae Young.............brilliant

"I wanna match with you two sluts.......c'mon b*tches!"

I couldn't have laughed any harder. :D

[LoNdOn]

Also, I couldn't miss JR any more on commentary. :(

[juggaloninjalee]

OMG that Rock picture is insane! He is huge!

[ampulator]

I think you've been playing TEW too long :p Not everything's that cut and dry, especially in the wrestling industry. Benoit was more a victim of timing and circumstance than anything else imo. What you pointed out above does hold some truth but that's more of an issue with WCW and a whole other discussion.



Nor am I, he deserved better.

I agree, but Benoit was pretty cut and dry worker in terms of what he was good at and wasn't good at.

It's not like they didn't try. It just never seemed to work out as well as they had hoped.

[jhd1]

Also, I couldn't miss JR any more on commentary. :(

Agreed. JR was awesome, in fact I enjoyed the show a lot and I don't normally watch RAW. And I have to admit Santino is great. I always thought he was ridiculous, unfunny, etc etc. but in this episode he was very funny (the Cobra is genius) and watching Sheamus try desperately not to laugh during the tea party segment last week was brilliant.

Am I the only one who thinks Michael Cole needs to tone down his 'heelishness'? I get what he is trying to do and his little digs at JR were funny at first but in the end you had to either watch the match or listen to him babble on. Surely his job is to let you do both. Do the heel talk, but just not all the time! :mad:

[LoNdOn]

Agreed. JR was awesome, in fact I enjoyed the show a lot and I don't normally watch RAW. And I have to admit Santino is great. I always thought he was ridiculous, unfunny, etc etc. but in this episode he was very funny (the Cobra is genius) and watching Sheamus try desperately not to laugh during the tea party segment last week was brilliant.

Am I the only one who thinks Michael Cole needs to tone down his 'heelishness'? I get what he is trying to do and his little digs at JR were funny at first but in the end you had to either watch the match or listen to him babble on. Surely his job is to let you do both. Do the heel talk, but just not all the time! :mad:

I couldn't agree more.

When Michael Cole is doing commentary I don't think, "Oh, I hate this guy because he is a heel." I think, "Stop ruining the show, you boring, monotonous jeb."

He just flat out ruins most of my enjoyment for WWE shows so imagine my utter joy when he appeared on Smackdown and continues to do so to this day.

[supershot]

Am I the only one who thinks Michael Cole needs to tone down his 'heelishness'? I get what he is trying to do and his little digs at JR were funny at first but in the end you had to either watch the match or listen to him babble on. Surely his job is to let you do both. Do the heel talk, but just not all the time! :mad:

This is the point I was trying to make exactly! Cole tends to overdo it sometimes and it really takes away from the matches. I know hes probably going to end of the GM so they have to let him get some of these Heel lines in but holy crap! Call the match once in a while too!

[ampulator]

Actually, I like Heel cole. He just does it so well. They should have done this a LONG time ago.

[crownsy]

Actually, I like Heel cole. He just does it so well. They should have done this a LONG time ago.

I wouldnt mind heel cole so much if he had a strong face foil.

King tends to just let him rant and only passively aggressively call him on his crap. that leads to me just going "jesus, would you shut up or add something to the match" every time cole talks. That's more like X-pac heat than the heat i think they want a heel announcer to draw.

Random though: mabey that's why they had that segment last night, to test the waters. in my mind JR would be the perfect face to offset heel cole. You could even keep king around as the middle man trying to keep order, much as i generally hate 3 man announce teams.

I'd be very ok with a JR-King-Cole team on Raw, with Cole getting to play off a strong face announcer like JR while King did his "reasonable man in the middle" shtick.

[crownsy]

This is the point I was trying to make exactly! Cole tends to overdo it sometimes and it really takes away from the matches. I know hes probably going to end of the GM so they have to let him get some of these Heel lines in but holy crap! Call the match once in a while too!

My problem is he's still so inconsistent. He likes Cena, but hates other faces. Meanwhile he likes Miz, but hates other heels like the nexus.

I wouldn't mind that if it had a explanation for why he likes certain guys and hates others, but it just comes off as completely skitzo sometimes, aside from why he hates bryan.

Also, if he's the GM, and i know this is asking alot of WWE creative, I'd like an explanation on why some of the GM's edicts help guys he hates (like bryan) and hurt guys he likes (miz)

I agree that they seem to be setting it up to be cole though, I hold out irrational hope for jericho pulling a fast one on everyone though :D

[sebsy]

It can't possibly be Jericho though. He's been in the ring when emails have come through, and more to the point emails that have csrewed him. It can't realistically be Jericho or any other current superstar.

It could well be Cole although the points you raise for it not being him are good ones. I honestly can't realistically think who it can be. The anonymous gm has voiced his dislikening of Bret Hart, so it can't be someone who is a strong face for example.

No doubt it will turn out to be someone that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :D

[LoNdOn]

It can't possibly be Jericho though. He's been in the ring when emails have come through, and more to the point emails that have csrewed him. It can't realistically be Jericho or any other current superstar.

It could well be Cole although the points you raise for it not being him are good ones. I honestly can't realistically think who it can be. The anonymous gm has voiced his dislikening of Bret Hart, so it can't be someone who is a strong face for example.

No doubt it will turn out to be someone that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :D

I think Shawn Michaels.

[juggaloninjalee]

It can't possibly be Jericho though. He's been in the ring when emails have come through, and more to the point emails that have csrewed him. It can't realistically be Jericho or any other current superstar.

It could well be Cole although the points you raise for it not being him are good ones. I honestly can't realistically think who it can be. The anonymous gm has voiced his dislikening of Bret Hart, so it can't be someone who is a strong face for example.

No doubt it will turn out to be someone that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :D

Stone Cold Steve Austin! It would make sense. DTA! Then he could guest ref a 3way with Wade Barrett, Cena, and Orton. I dunno just a random idea. Probably a bad one though.

[Stennick]

Except Austin is booked up doing movies and can't even find time to stop by RAW and say hi nor does he want to come back and be full time like that.

Honestly this isn't a storyline thats going to get paid off until their ready to end it. When their tired of the whole mystery GM they will reveal someone, they won't make much sense, I'm sure they'll get fired or beat up and it'll be onto someone else.

[BHK1978]

Except Austin is booked up doing movies and can't even find time to stop by RAW and say hi nor does he want to come back and be full time like that.

Honestly this isn't a storyline thats going to get paid off until their ready to end it. When their tired of the whole mystery GM they will reveal someone, they won't make much sense, I'm sure they'll get fired or beat up and it'll be onto someone else.

I think you are right about this. I am not sure if even they know who it will be. They must have ideas but I don't think anything is set in stone. I just hope it does not end up like the Black Scorpion storyline in WCW.

[Stennick]

And also please remember just because an email has been sent while someone is out there doesn't mean anything. Anybody can email something it doesn't have to be that guy so thats their way around that.

Didn't they already do a big "who is the GM gonna be" a few years ago after I think Bischoff was fired and they where hyping a new GM and people thought it'd be Dusty Rhodes but it never went anywhere and McMahon just sort of lingered for a while.

[crownsy]

It can't possibly be Jericho though. He's been in the ring when emails have come through, and more to the point emails that have csrewed him. It can't realistically be Jericho or any other current superstar.

It could well be Cole although the points you raise for it not being him are good ones. I honestly can't realistically think who it can be. The anonymous gm has voiced his dislikening of Bret Hart, so it can't be someone who is a strong face for example.

No doubt it will turn out to be someone that makes absolutely no sense whatsoever :D

I don't really think them being in the ring disqualifies anyone. It's an email, it could be sent by someone whenever.

I think it's going to be cole though, even more so that now that he's dropping comments about how he "runs this place" ect last night.

I guess, to answer my own question, that it would explain why he doesn't care for Nexus, since the beat down the entire ring side area received on thier debut is the reason for the GM remaining beyond thier reach.

[Hyde Hill]

Except Austin is booked up doing movies and can't even find time to stop by RAW and say hi nor does he want to come back and be full time like that.

Honestly this isn't a storyline thats going to get paid off until their ready to end it. When their tired of the whole mystery GM they will reveal someone, they won't make much sense, I'm sure they'll get fired or beat up and it'll be onto someone else.

It's either this, with Adamle or Coach being a good patsy, or it's Cole or Trips imho.

[Comradebot]

It's either this, with Adamle or Coach being a good patsy, or it's Cole or Trips imho.

I think this is the best route. Triple H is a natural, and glorious, heel. It'd fit the "major heel turn" rumours. He has reasons to not like Bret Hart. He's in a believable position to have power in the company. And, most importantly, it'd rock. It would make for one HELL of a return for him. A veteran of the company finally showing back up to flaunt his power and put all these young upstarts back in line, I like it.

Cole is my second choice, but... it'd just be too obvious. I'd rather see him be a stooge for HHH, I think that'd be fun to watch.

[James Casey]

HHH is at the point of his career where fans will cheer him against anyone, and if it's true that he's enjoying being backstage much more than the wrestling side of things than having him do a couple of segments a night would seem to be the ideal way for him to bow out over time.

That said, I assume he'll be back and active for a spell between the New Year and Mania at least - that blow-off match with Sheamus needs to happen.

Otherwise, what about William Regal? Granted he's a joke character but he quickly got over as GM last time around, and if anyone can walk the line between being a bit of a joke, but being able to back it up, it's Regal.

[Slim Jim]

Didn't the GM screw around with Sheamus while he was champ? I seem to recall him squashing... Zack Ryder? ...only to be put into some multi-man defense instead.

[crownsy]

Didn't the GM screw around with Sheamus while he was champ? I seem to recall him squashing... Zack Ryder? ...only to be put into some multi-man defense instead.

Thats what keeps it open though, the GM has been wildly inconsistent. Some times he does heel moves, other times he does face moves, other times he plays netrual.

[sabataged]

I just keep wondering is there any chance Orton comes out of this thing turning heel again? I cant come up with a scenerio but its like everyone thinks Cena is going heel and I really cant picture it

[Tha Black Phenom]

Well, not that I definitely see Cena turning or anything but I see Orton turning being even less likely. Nevermind the fact he and Cena have squared hundreds of times but Orton's been openly threatening Cena for a while now so that's the twist factor somewhat out the window. And considering up to like two weeks ago, we've never really seen Orton's stance about the whole CeNexus thing, it doesn't seem they're building anything around him specifically.

Btw

http://i51.tinypic.com/dwamtk.jpg

:D

[brashleyholland]

I posted this in the MMA thread, but figured it's just as, if not more, relevant here.

So there was a rumour about a month back that a 'reasonably major' UFC name's representatives were putting out feelers for a jump to the WWE. I heard three names from people 'in the know', one of which later turned out to be hot air.

The one that *does* seem to have some merit is Roy 'Big Country' Nelson. If you don't know him, he won the recent Heavyweight season of The Ultimate fighter, beating Kimbo Slice in the process. He's known for being short and fat with a mullet and rubbing his belly when he wins. Despite his look at attitude, he's actually a decent fighter, easily one of the UFC's top 10 heavyweights.

For anyone who hasn't read it yet, the story is that Nelson signed a contract about two years ago with Roy Jones Jr's 'Square Ring Promotions' to compete on their boxing/MMA PPV in March of 09. Turns out that they still have some kind of options on Nelson's career, and are suing Nelson and the UFC. No word on how much merit their case has, but it's serious enough to get him pulled from UFC 125 and to have his UFC career publicly put 'on ice' by Dana White.

Nelson has talked about 'fighting' the Undertaker on twitter (following the failed Brock Lesnar/Undertaker confrontation at UFC 121) and the word is that he could be allowed to do his own thing until this legal situation is cleared up.

So assuming all of the above is true, and Nelson's people are reaching out to WWE...what say wrestling fans to the idea? Do you even know who he is? Is he popular enough from The Ultimate Fighter in the US to be known by the average WWE fan if he turns up on Raw, for example? Could you see him having an 'MMA vs UFC' match at Wrestlemania?

[Genadi]

I really shouldn't draw any attention to this loser but it's mildly funny, it's like he's a hired troll on a mission to disrupt any wrestlers twitter he can find...

http://twitter.com/JacksonPaige

[Basmat01]

I really shouldn't draw any attention to this loser but it's mildly funny, it's like he's a hired troll on a mission to disrupt any wrestlers twitter he can find...

http://twitter.com/JacksonPaige

so whats going on here? who is jackson page?

[MrCanada]

HAHAH!

Alex Riley got a DUI this morning.

http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/PublicInquiry/ArrestInquiry/ViewArrest?id=10056587&k1=8cd5448d944712c&k2=LTM2OTkyODk0OA%3d%3d

[darthsiddus2]

HAHAH!

Alex Riley got a DUI this morning.

http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/PublicInquiry/ArrestInquiry/ViewArrest?id=10056587&k1=8cd5448d944712c&k2=LTM2OTkyODk0OA%3d%3d

Lulz. There goes any hopes of a Riley push.

[LoNdOn]

I really shouldn't draw any attention to this loser but it's mildly funny, it's like he's a hired troll on a mission to disrupt any wrestlers twitter he can find...

http://twitter.com/JacksonPaige

The guy's just a tool. Bashing those before going to bash...... well...........

[SaySo]

Remember the last show for NXT season 2, when Alex Riley attacked Percy Watson for no reason, i think he was under the influence, OH YEAH!

[SaySo]

Alex Riley's Mug Shot:

http://i51.tinypic.com/2ywh6qd.jpg

[Linsolv]

Morning everyone. It turns out I've been gone the past few weeks. :o

I was kinda amused when they couldn't think of anyone who was comparable to Mark Henry on monday, now that I'm watching (I've not really been watching TV lately... kinda the reason I kept not coming here, was cause I haven't been watching wrestling. Or anything else.)

[brashleyholland]

For anyone wondering what would happen if someone channelled the spirit of Shawn Michaels Sweet Chin Music in a real fight... :-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLxQGiZ3qgE

Awesome.

[Genadi]

For anyone wondering what would happen if someone channelled the spirit of Shawn Michaels Sweet Chin Music in a real fight... :-D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLxQGiZ3qgE

Awesome.

So much win! That really woulda hurt.

[ampulator]

I posted this in the MMA thread, but figured it's just as, if not more, relevant here.

So there was a rumour about a month back that a 'reasonably major' UFC name's representatives were putting out feelers for a jump to the WWE. I heard three names from people 'in the know', one of which later turned out to be hot air.

The one that *does* seem to have some merit is Roy 'Big Country' Nelson. If you don't know him, he won the recent Heavyweight season of The Ultimate fighter, beating Kimbo Slice in the process. He's known for being short and fat with a mullet and rubbing his belly when he wins. Despite his look at attitude, he's actually a decent fighter, easily one of the UFC's top 10 heavyweights.

For anyone who hasn't read it yet, the story is that Nelson signed a contract about two years ago with Roy Jones Jr's 'Square Ring Promotions' to compete on their boxing/MMA PPV in March of 09. Turns out that they still have some kind of options on Nelson's career, and are suing Nelson and the UFC. No word on how much merit their case has, but it's serious enough to get him pulled from UFC 125 and to have his UFC career publicly put 'on ice' by Dana White.

Nelson has talked about 'fighting' the Undertaker on twitter (following the failed Brock Lesnar/Undertaker confrontation at UFC 121) and the word is that he could be allowed to do his own thing until this legal situation is cleared up.

So assuming all of the above is true, and Nelson's people are reaching out to WWE...what say wrestling fans to the idea? Do you even know who he is? Is he popular enough from The Ultimate Fighter in the US to be known by the average WWE fan if he turns up on Raw, for example? Could you see him having an 'MMA vs UFC' match at Wrestlemania?
Roy Nelson? Well, Roy Nelson would be interesting to see. The problem is, does WWE feel like in Battle mode, or Defense mode? If it's defense mode, they might try to "bury" him. If it's battle mode, they will push him to moon to get the best use out of him possible.

He needs to be matched up with a person that can protect themselves, though. Someone like, Bryan Danielson, or Punk, if he wasn't injured.

[Stennick]

What do you mean by "protect" themselves?

Anyway nobody really knows who Roy Nelson is and the people that do know who he is most likely only know him as the guy that beat Kimbo.

Roy doesn't really look like a main event, honestly he reminds me of Trevor Murdoch. He might get a job in the WWE......MAYBE but he's not going to be main eventing, he's no Ken Shamrock thats for sure.

I like the guy as a fighter but I don't see him as a pro wrestler....a successful one. I'd suggest going to TNA they might fall all over themselves for somebody like that.

[ampulator]

no one said he had to be main event. Hell, even Shamrock wasn't in the main event for long. I don't know why he wasn't in the main event, but that was the case. He make some side money, and he might work out better than anyone expects. Never count Roy Nelson out.

[BHK1978]

I really shouldn't draw any attention to this loser but it's mildly funny, it's like he's a hired troll on a mission to disrupt any wrestlers twitter he can find...

http://twitter.com/JacksonPaige

I have to say I did find the X Pac and Vance Archer stuff to be pretty funny.

[BurningHamster]

I know I am behind the times but this could not escape my attention.

Brooklyn Brawler - The King of Old School

[Blackman]

Watched NXT episode, and actually lolled a lot during the last competition segment. Funny stuff. The first match was almost abysmal though. Second match was ok i guess.

[brashleyholland]

Roy Nelson? Well, Roy Nelson would be interesting to see. The problem is, does WWE feel like in Battle mode, or Defense mode? If it's defense mode, they might try to "bury" him. If it's battle mode, they will push him to moon to get the best use out of him possible.



Seems to me like they're in defence mode. Otherwise why isn't there an 'MMA Bad Ass' character already tearing it up in the WWE, capitalising on the MMA boom?

[lazorbeak]

Seems to me like they're in defence mode. Otherwise why isn't there an 'MMA Bad Ass' character already tearing it up in the WWE, capitalising on the MMA boom?

Probably because Vince doesn't watch MMA and is about 10 years out of touch.

[MrCanada]

RELEASE:
Shad Gaspard endeavored.


Not his tyme I guess.

EDIT:

Might be Christmas cleaning time... Luke Gallows & Big Dick Johnson are also released..

Gallows upsets me, he actually showed good skill his whole time in WWE and even good mic work thanks to his SES stuff.

[ChrisKid]

alex rileys profile has been deleted on wwe.com so he may be released also apparently JTG may be going soon

[UkWrestleFan]

Wonder if any of them end up with TNA.

It really is a shame about Gallows, seemed a decent talent for a big fella.

[Prophet]

From the WWE website ...

World Wrestling Entertainment has come to terms on the release of WWE Superstars Shad Gaspard, Luke Gallows, Vance Archer and Caylen Croft and WWE Divas Tiffany and Jillian Hall as of November 19, 2010. WWE wishes them the best in all future endeavors

They killed the Dudebusters! :mad:

[Self]

From the WWE website ...



They killed the Dudebusters! :mad:

When the flame burns twice as bright, it burns half as long. I'll miss you, Dudebusters.

[PeterHilton]

I'm surprised my Shad and Gallows. Both guys had good size and I thought Gallows was very solid on the mic as a part of the SES and Shad always seemed more comfortable showing his personality than JTG.

[MattitudeV2]

From the WWE website ...



They killed the Dudebusters! :mad:

They wanted to push Barreta not Croft!

[MrCanada]

Dont really get some of the releases. This reminds me of when WWE went and brought up Spears, Cabana, Braddock, ext didnt even give them a chance to get over then fired them.

Although these guys (especially the Dudebusters) were really starting to show promise.

And I guess my dreams of a Archer & Gallows team called The Executioners (get it?) will never come true. Seems like such a simple and natural fit.

Shad, Tiffany, and Jillian could care less about.

Dont undertstand Gallows, Archer, and Croft though. Especially with FCW sucking pretty hard right now outside of a very select few guys. And even those select few guys are only as good as the guys released.