The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

Yes, it does.

Because that 'certain type of fan' makes up the vast majority of the audience that watches the programming, buys PPVs, and pays for merchandise. Who gives a crap if internet nerds like him? Why does anyone need to provide 'evidence?'

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

So knock yourself out talking about he's a bad worker. Because it's just YOU. That's all. YOU are entitled to YOUR opinion but that's all it is. Cena has generated millions of dollars in revenue for the biggest promotion on the planet...that means A LOT more than whether or not he pleases the IWC
No, it's not just me. There's more people like there that believe what I believe. Is there much as there used to be? Heck no. You want to know why? They left. WWE has gained new fans, but they alienated some older ones. I'm one of the last of my kind. I'll eventually move on as well, if the trend continues.

Like I said, we'll know in 10 years or maybe early as 5 years as to who is right. I hope that I'm wrong, absolutely, possitively wrong. But I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong, and that's what scares me.

[Slim Jim]

Cena is just like The Rock. The comparison holds up very well as workers.

People's Elbow -> 5 Knuckle Shuffle
Rock Bottom -> Attitude Adjustment
Sharpshooter -> STF
plus two or three other signature moves (Spinebuster/Proto-plex, etc.)

They both spout(ed) catchphrases (Just Bring It! -> You want some? Come get some!), get by on their charisma and knew how to work a crowd. Rock probably edges Cena on psychology, for me anyway, because I mark like a little girl for the way he used to kick out.

And The Rock is the biggest star from the Attitude Era. And you could probably extend the comparison to Hogan before that.

So basically, nothing has changed in terms of what the top worker produces. The product as a whole has evolved, and looks kind of cyclical. But the quality of the top workers has stayed largely the same, and it's the same style that doesn't pander to the TINY minority that is the IWC (who will pump money into the 'E regardless).

[jwt13]

I have to say that Raw was good it is the first time in about a year I can say I liked Raw more than Impact

[ampulator]

Cena is just like The Rock. The comparison holds up very well as workers.

People's Elbow -> 5 Knuckle Shuffle
Rock Bottom -> Attitude Adjustment
Sharpshooter -> STF
plus two or three other signature moves (Spinebuster/Proto-plex, etc.)

They both spout(ed) catchphrases (Just Bring It! -> You want some? Come get some!), get by on their charisma and knew how to work a crowd. Rock probably edges Cena on psychology, for me anyway, because I mark like a little girl for the way he used to kick out.

And The Rock is the biggest star from the Attitude Era. And you could probably extend the comparison to Hogan before that.

So basically, nothing has changed in terms of what the top worker produces. The product as a whole has evolved, and looks kind of cyclical. But the quality of the top workers has stayed largely the same, and it's the same style that doesn't pander to the TINY minority that is the IWC (who will pump money into the 'E regardless).
The quality of workers have stayed the same, but the quality of the matches from the top workers have declined.

I'm not necessarily the matches have declined overall, because that's not true. But form the top workers? Yes, they have. It's not a matter of talent, either. It's matter of what they are allowed and not allowd to do.

As for this happens, it's because the WWE either prevents and/or forbids their top workers from doing certain things. Now, I understand if they want them to do stupid high-risk stuff, but to completely script their matches is stupid. It makes their matches look boring and stale.

[Basmat01]

Cena is just like The Rock. The comparison holds up very well as workers.

People's Elbow -> 5 Knuckle Shuffle
Rock Bottom -> Attitude Adjustment
Sharpshooter -> STF
plus two or three other signature moves (Spinebuster/Proto-plex, etc.)

They both spout(ed) catchphrases (Just Bring It! -> You want some? Come get some!), get by on their charisma and knew how to work a crowd. Rock probably edges Cena on psychology, for me anyway, because I mark like a little girl for the way he used to kick out.

And The Rock is the biggest star from the Attitude Era. And you could probably extend the comparison to Hogan before that.

So basically, nothing has changed in terms of what the top worker produces. The product as a whole has evolved, and looks kind of cyclical. But the quality of the top workers has stayed largely the same, and it's the same style that doesn't pander to the TINY minority that is the IWC (who will pump money into the 'E regardless).

Worst Catchphase EVER!!!!!

[LoganRodzen]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest. :o

My lady has decided to give me the coolest Christmas present of all time... ROYAL RUMBLE TICKETS! And she told me about it early... what a gal.

Yep. January 30th I will be at the TD Garden in Boston watching one of the coolest PPV's ever. I'm really pumped about it because my older brother is going with us along with his wife (a double date at wrestling?!). My brother actually works for TD Bank in their fraud department and he can get discounted tickets for events there. I've gone to RAW with him there for $15 (not the best seats, but you can see from everywhere in that arena).

I've been to a couple Smackdown tapings, two RAW live events, and Summerslam '06 (Orton vs Hogan and DX vs McMahon's). I'm really pumped to go to another PPV and having gone to Summerslam - I now need to go to just a few more "BIG" PPV's - Wrestlemania and Survivor Series. If King of the Ring was still around I'd need to go to that.

Anyone else ever gone to the Royal Rumble or going this year? Stories! Please share!


EDIT: Even though I don't follow wrestling week to week, I try to stay "current" on things that are happening. I'm still pumped to go see it and I'll probably watch RAW all of January so that I know what's happening when I'm there, ha.

[supershot]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest. :o

I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but since it's thanksgiving...

I'd say shes a keeper :p

[Linsolv]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest. :o

Listen, Logan. I think we can all agree that it would've been rude to say that to you, because it would've heavily implied that we didn't trust your taste in women.

[Genadi]

Wow... really guys? Not even a "your girlfriend is really cool"? I'm a bit disappointed to be honest. :o

I just noticed this, lucky man! In light of recent events....


Miss Rodzen has gained popularity from this segment

Miss Rodzen has gained respect from this segment

Miss Rodzen has seen a boost to her Babyface performance skill from this segment

Logan Rodzen is now Loyal to Miss Rodzen

[BHK1978]

My lady has decided to give me the coolest Christmas present of all time... ROYAL RUMBLE TICKETS! And she told me about it early... what a gal.

Yep. January 30th I will be at the TD Garden in Boston watching one of the coolest PPV's ever. I'm really pumped about it because my older brother is going with us along with his wife (a double date at wrestling?!). My brother actually works for TD Bank in their fraud department and he can get discounted tickets for events there. I've gone to RAW with him there for $15 (not the best seats, but you can see from everywhere in that arena).

I've been to a couple Smackdown tapings, two RAW live events, and Summerslam '06 (Orton vs Hogan and DX vs McMahon's). I'm really pumped to go to another PPV and having gone to Summerslam - I now need to go to just a few more "BIG" PPV's - Wrestlemania and Survivor Series. If King of the Ring was still around I'd need to go to that.

Anyone else ever gone to the Royal Rumble or going this year? Stories! Please share!


EDIT: Even though I don't follow wrestling week to week, I try to stay "current" on things that are happening. I'm still pumped to go see it and I'll probably watch RAW all of January so that I know what's happening when I'm there, ha.

I was thinking about going but then I remembered how much I hate the Fleet Center or whatever it is called now. That arena just stinks. Especially if you have cheap seats (which I often have). The seats in the upper part of the arena are built so that you are slanted forward, which makes you feel like you are going to fall forward, at least for me anyway. Also, it cost an arm and a leg to park anywhere remotely close to the Fleet Center.

I went to the Royal Rumble at MSG a couple of years ago (another arena that I am not fond of) and it was a good show. My major gripe was about the arena and not the show. They pretty much opened the arena to the public like a half an hour before the show began so it ended up being a sea of people all entering the building at once which I was not happy about at all. And then MSG itself is horribly dated on the inside. One can tell that it was built in the late 1960's.

I also went to the 1994 Royal Rumble which was at the Providence Civc Center. However, I do not recall much about it.

It sucks that they are holding in Boston because the Royal Rumble is my favorite PPV (yes even over Wrestle Mania, which much like the Super Bowl, is way over-hyped). I just wish that if they were going to have it in New England they would have it in Providence or Hartford because those arenas are just better in my opinion. Plus in Providence you do not have to pay to park if you are willing to walk a little bit.

[lazorbeak]

Yes, it does.

Because that 'certain type of fan' makes up the vast majority of the audience that watches the programming, buys PPVs, and pays for merchandise. Who gives a crap if internet nerds like him? Why does anyone need to provide 'evidence?'

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

So knock yourself out talking about he's a bad worker. Because it's just YOU. That's all. YOU are entitled to YOUR opinion but that's all it is. Cena has generated millions of dollars in revenue for the biggest promotion on the planet...that means A LOT more than whether or not he pleases the IWC

No, it's not just me. There's more people like there that believe what I believe. Is there much as there used to be? Heck no. You want to know why? They left. WWE has gained new fans, but they alienated some older ones. I'm one of the last of my kind. I'll eventually move on as well, if the trend continues.

Like I said, we'll know in 10 years or maybe early as 5 years as to who is right. I hope that I'm wrong, absolutely, possitively wrong. But I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong, and that's what scares me.

Sorry, Ampulator, you lose this one. You said no one can convince you that Cena is a good worker (despite throwing your hands up as to how he produced very good matches with guys like Umaga), and Hilton followed that up with a reasonable defense, namely, that in a worked sport, getting people to pay to see you is the DEFINITION of being a good worker. Making Cena one of the top workers of the freaking decade. And no amount of nit-picking that his 5 moves aren't executed as crisply as Bret Hart's five moves is going to make an iota of difference to the fact that he gets people to pay to see him.

And you followed that up with something about how you're one of the last of your kind. If "your kind" is workrate obsessed smarks who poo-poo everything WWE does because it doesn't fit your taste in product, good! Because those so-called smarks have a rudimentary understanding of how the business works, make heroes out of guys that have never, ever made money at a job where making money is the goal, and otherwise go around acting personally offended that they don't get to watch "3 star" matches on free TV, despite the fact that nothing like that has ever existed in the history of professional wrestling. It's a fake sport about human drama, not what moves you're allowed to do. If you don't understand that, maybe a) don't watch, and b) please stop talking about it.

[Genadi]

Sorry, Ampulator, you lose this one. You said no one can convince you that Cena is a good worker (despite throwing your hands up as to how he produced very good matches with guys like Umaga), and Hilton followed that up with a reasonable defense, namely, that in a worked sport, getting people to pay to see you is the DEFINITION of being a good worker. Making Cena one of the top workers of the freaking decade.

I disagree with your definition of a good worker, I don't think there is one. Some people enjoyed a guy like Benoit's work to the point they consider him the greatest worker of all time. Others prefer Hogan and believe he's the greatest worker ever (for the reasons you gave about drawing). I said before it's largely subjective and the fact that a reasonable debate can be had over Hogan vs Benoit only reinforces that.

It's a discussion board guys, we come here to trade thoughts and share opinions. Not prove who knows better about a fake sport that is controlled by promoters, bookers and fans making it (one more time :p ) subjective. Let's not be like the 99% of boards out there where this petty stuff takes place, it really is tired and cliche to a wrestling forum.

[lazorbeak]

I disagree with your definition of a good worker, I don't think there is one. Some people enjoyed a guy like Benoit's work to the point they consider him the greatest worker of all time. Others prefer Hogan and believe he's the greatest worker ever (for the reasons you gave about drawing). I said before it's largely subjective and the fact that a reasonable debate can be had over Hogan vs Benoit only reinforces that.

1. It's not my definition, so I really don't care.

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy [sic] their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.

2. If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on. As I said a post ago, I can only hope that the Scott Keith star-rating-itis goes the way of the dodo.

3. The fact that something is subjective doesn't mean that someone can't have an opinion that is unsupported by reasoning, data, or common sense. Since PH's opinion is supported and ampulator's not only has no support but is flat out ignoring data that contradicts his opinion, I don't see this as being much of a "discussion."

[ampulator]

1. It's not my definition, so I really don't care.



2. If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on. As I said a post ago, I can only hope that the Scott Keith star-rating-itis goes the way of the dodo.

3. The fact that something is subjective doesn't mean that someone can't have an opinion that is unsupported by reasoning, data, or common sense. Since PH's opinion is supported and ampulator's not only has no support but is flat out ignoring data that contradicts his opinion, I don't see this as being much of a "discussion."
Lazorbeak, I'm not ignoring his evidence. I think it's valid. I just don't agree with his analysis.

Second, I hope to the highest power he's right, and that I'm wrong. I WANT TO BELIEVE IN HIM. I REALLY DO. But I just can't. Not after everything I've seen. It CAN'T go on like this. This IS NOT a cyclical siutation. This Is NOT business as usual. The territories are dead. If this business shrinks and WWE is not up to the task, this business that I love to watch so much is going to die a slow death. I want to believe. I want him to be right. But his evidence is a drop of water in a huge pond. He thinks it's just about money, pure dollar signs. But it's a short term gain in exchange for long-term planning.

I fear I may be see the last days of pro-wrestling. This the slow death that no one predicted. That few would see. I always thought it was go down fight at the very least, kicking and screaming before death would take it.

Instead, one piece at time, a drip-drop loss is what it's suffering. And it terrifies me that I'm seeing this and I can't do anything about it.

[Genadi]

1. It's not my definition, so I really don't care.
Lol, well you gave it so whoevers it is I think is stupid, I explained why ;)

2. If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on. As I said a post ago, I can only hope that the Scott Keith star-rating-itis goes the way of the dodo.

I could've said the exact same thing to you, I didn't want to come across as a pretentious douche so I refrained :D

3. The fact that something is subjective doesn't mean that someone can't have an opinion that is unsupported by reasoning, data, or common sense. Since PH's opinion is supported and ampulator's not only has no support but is flat out ignoring data that contradicts his opinion, I don't see this as being much of a "discussion."

Why am I not suprised you don't. No one said you can't have an opinion on something subjective, actually that's pretty much what I was saying in my post. I find it funny you talk about data and facts in wrestling, extremely funny :rolleyes:

[jwt13]

Yes, it does.

Because that 'certain type of fan' makes up the vast majority of the audience that watches the programming, buys PPVs, and pays for merchandise. Who gives a crap if internet nerds like him? Why does anyone need to provide 'evidence?'

Being a 'good worker' means you get people to pay to watch you. I've read interviews with everyone from Bill Watts to Bobby Heenan to Jim Cornette and they all say the same thing: if people pay to watch you, you're a good worker. Period. And I'd stand buy their opinion 1000 times over before I care what a bunch of smarks on a message board say.


I completely agree, IMO this iswhat a good worker is someone who can put asses in seats this is also why I don't love some of the IWC's favorites such as Danielson, Low Ki, and Chris Daniels as I don't think they have the ability to draw people into watch the show or go to a show on a big time level

[Genadi]

Lazorbeak, I'm not ignoring his evidence. I think it's valid. I just don't agree with his analysis.

Second, I hope to the highest power he's right, and that I'm wrong. I WANT TO BELIEVE IN HIM. I REALLY DO. But I just can't. Not after everything I've seen. It CAN'T go on like this.

This IS NOT a cyclical siutation. This Is NOT business as usual. The territories are dead. If this business shrinks and WWE is not up to the task, this business that I love to watch so much is going to die a slow death.

I want to believe. I want him to be right. But his evidence is a drop of water in a huge pond.

Amp, if anyone ever replies to one of your posts opening with this...

Sorry, Ampulator, you lose this one.

You should know it's a lost cause :) Unless you too thought you were competing for the intwerwebz epeen trophy don't feed him ;)

[The Final Countdown]

It's a discussion board guys, we come here to trade thoughts and share opinions. Not prove who knows better about a fake sport that is controlled by promoters, bookers and fans making it (one more time :p ) subjective. Let's not be like the 99% of boards out there where this petty stuff takes place, it really is tired and cliche to a wrestling forum.
Amen to that. I've seen this argument, or a slight variation of it, pop up several times since I've been a member of these boards, and nothing ever comes of it. People simply have different views on what makes someone a good 'worker', and no amount of 'no, THIS is what makes someone a good worker' is going to change that fact.

On the specific topic of John Cena: I think he gets a bad rap from a lot of the IWC for his "work rate", to use a smarkish term. The guy can put on some really good matches, in my opinion.

[lazorbeak]

Lazorbeak, I'm not ignoring his evidence. I think it's valid. I just don't agree with his analysis.


But you weren't presenting anything to the contrary. I don't see why you think this situation is any different from what happened in the mid-1990's, when we saw aging stars phased out in conjunction with a decline in interest that simultaneously saw the business dry up all over the country.

Further, I don't see what that has to do with whether John Cena is a good worker. Again, to work the Bret Hart comparison, Bret's 5 moves may have been more crisply executed, but Cena still draws more money than Hart ever did.

I could've said the exact same thing to you, I didn't want to come across as
a pretentious douche so I refrained :D

If you think things like "facts" make someone a pretentious douche, I don't know what to tell you. Again, this isn't even my argument. They're not my facts. So maybe you should keep that in mind before saying something that makes you look like a joke?

Why am I not suprised you don't. No one said you can't have an opinion on something subjective, actually that's pretty much what I was saying in my post. I find it funny you talk about data and facts in wrestling, extremely funny :rolleyes:

Yes Virginia, arguments are won and lost via facts. In any subject. Ever. In the history of time. :rolleyes:

[Genadi]

Ahh LB again picking and choosing which part of his "argument" to stick with and defend :D I've got 5 mins spare so I'll play along for old times sake...



If you think things like "facts" make someone a pretentious douche, I don't know what to tell you...

Not facts, this....

If you disagree with what that other guy said, you're disagreeing with a lot of people who actually know something about the business and have gone on record as saying drawing money = being a good wrestler. It's what the fake sport is predicated on.

Your own words, only a page back ;)

Yes Virginia, arguments are won and lost via facts. In any subject. Ever. In the history of time. :rolleyes:

Dang and I was trying so hard to win this argument, I can feel my epeen shrinking as a result :( This post proves once again you completely missed the point, but please don't let me stop you from arguing (and winning!) the facts about wrastlin.

[lazorbeak]

So, how about that WWE, eh? I hear the Miz is champion! That guy is Awesome!

[The Final Countdown]

So, how about that WWE, eh? I hear the Miz is champion! That guy is Awesome!
Nice transition. :D

Seriously though, I'm happy for the guy. He has improved by leaps and bounds from where he was just a few years ago. Like most people, I assumed he'd be the "Jannetty" of his team with Morrison, but that hasn't been the case at all. Good for Miz, and good for WWE, shaking things up. I'm very interested to see where Miz goes from here.

[Genadi]

Nice transition. :D

Seriously though, I'm happy for the guy. He has improved by leaps and bounds from where he was just a few years ago. Like most people, I assumed he'd be the "Jannetty" of his team with Morrison, but that hasn't been the case at all. Good for Miz, and good for WWE, shaking things up. I'm very interested to see where Miz goes from here.

Agreed :)

[lazorbeak]

Nice transition. :D

Seriously though, I'm happy for the guy. He has improved by leaps and bounds from where he was just a few years ago. Like most people, I assumed he'd be the "Jannetty" of his team with Morrison, but that hasn't been the case at all. Good for Miz, and good for WWE, shaking things up. I'm very interested to see where Miz goes from here.

Sometimes it's better not to take the bait. ;)

He really has been something else. I wasn't a fan until his US title run late last year, but he's really shown he can thrive at the top. Some of his promos have been just amazing.

[djthefunkchris]

Amen to that. I've seen this argument, or a slight variation of it, pop up several times since I've been a member of these boards, and nothing ever comes of it. People simply have different views on what makes someone a good 'worker', and no amount of 'no, THIS is what makes someone a good worker' is going to change that fact.

On the specific topic of John Cena: I think he gets a bad rap from a lot of the IWC for his "work rate", to use a smarkish term. The guy can put on some really good matches, in my opinion.

I don't get into the IWC or any other stuff outside of this one.

I honestly think we would have a higher level of agree on something like this if we talked specifically what the worker is good at rather then an overall "This worker is better because he's more popular" outlook.

Since we have TEW, perhaps a discussion on how we would rate TEW'ish Stats would be better. I would rate Cena only ok on brawling, about the same as mat work, and higher on Technical then I would on Submissions (although he submits alot more then he "rastle's" at this point... various match's in the past as well as some not so much in the past (even that match with Miz's star showed him looking alot more veteran-like in the technical department then his opponant) has showed he can put forth something like that.

What is work-rate? Cena has had some of the longest match's I've seen or heard about in the last decade? I take it work-rate is talking about his move-set moreso then his actual work in a match???

I would rate Cena very high on personality skills, such as charisma, mic skills, psychology, etc. He's also ussually a pretty safe worker. He's very physical, strong, etc. There are lots of things he is really good with that bring out what there is to like about him, and why "certain" people like him.

Looking at some of the new search engines like Bing visual search, etc... You can find Cena (60 on that list) is found to be more popular then HHH, HBK, Austin, the Rock (#355), and even Hogan. http://www.bing.com/visualsearch?g=popular_celebrities&qpvt=Celebrities&FORM=Z9GE24#

Then again, Lady Gaga as number 1? /shudder.

Anyways, looking at it from a perspective like that shows Cena has not only become as big as icon's of old, but has even passed the "attitude" generation as well.... Meaning he is in today's wrestling, the biggest name out there, and it's not even just a "little bit". Realising that these types of search engines are going to be the "majority" of people period, not necessarily wrestling fans, or even people that watch wrestling. The people I mentioned have obviously made it into the mainstream of viewer's..... Not unlike how people that didn't watch boxing knew who Muhammed Ali was, or for that matter Mike Tyson. Mainstream appeal gaines ussually helps with gaining new viewer's, and at the same time, they become known in the mainstream community because they have the "it" factor, or are just notorious for being naughty. The former meaning that people found them entertaining outside of the Wrestling world/caught people's eye.

It's humbling to look things up, especially when you find the same thing's out everytime you look it up unless you go to extremes.

[ampulator]

But you weren't presenting anything to the contrary. I don't see why you think this situation is any different from what happened in the mid-1990's, when we saw aging stars phased out in conjunction with a decline in interest that simultaneously saw the business dry up all over the country.
Present evidence? It's plain for everyone to see. It's just that no one has seen it the way I have. The overall industry is dead. One hand, it's lost at the core of what it is (Jim Cornette's argument). On the other hand, it can't remake itself because there's nothing (Paul Heyman's argument). Though both of them are diametrical opposities, to some degree, both of them are right. Wrestling has at its core has moved off what it should be, while not adopting new things at the same time. That's the definition of "dying" to me. Wrestling isn't wrestling anymore, but at the same time, what it is is incredible stale.

It's in no-mans land. Wrestling needs to find out what it was before, and regonize it's limitations, yet attempt to rejuvenate itself. Otherwise, MMA would take the more pure-minded fans, new forms of entertainment would take away the the entertainment side of the fans, and then wrestling would be left with nothing.

Why does it occur to no one that somehow both Paul Heyman and Jim Cornette arrived to similar conclusions that MMA is the future, despite being diametrical opposites in style? Shouldn't that indicator to people that wrestling is going to die if it doesn't figure out what it is and what it stands for? Am I the only who sees a dying industry and wants to stop the bleeding? :(

The difference between the downtimes now, is there is no "other". There was always another promotion that can attract other fans in wrestling if they weren't into the dominant promotion. Now it's WWE. It holds almost all the market. It IS the industry for intents and purposes. Without other competition, there's nothing motivating them to grow, to be competitive. This also means fans that like wrestling but don't like WWE's style have little to no refuge. There's ROH and TNA, sure but they are bit players at best, with not enough exposure and coverage. A stagnant industry will eventually become a dead industry.

[lazorbeak]

DJ, that's really only an accurate measure of who is more popular now; just because Cena is more popular in a search engine doesn't mean anything except that right now he's the biggest name in wrestling. But that could end overnight (see: Jeff Hardy). One thing I do agree with ampulator about is that there's a definite change in what it means to be "over" in the traditional sense of the word. Because while Jeff Hardy could return to WWE tomorrow and still get a crowd reaction similar to what he was getting when he left, he's not going to find that anywhere else. Even as late as the 90's, when Hulk Hogan or Savage jumped ship, they brought fans with them. Hardy's fans are WWE fans first, and if he's not on their TV every week they'll cheer for someone else rather than follow Hardy.

[ampulator]

DJ, that's really only an accurate measure of who is more popular now; just because Cena is more popular in a search engine doesn't mean anything except that right now he's the biggest name in wrestling. But that could end overnight (see: Jeff Hardy). One thing I do agree with ampulator about is that there's a definite change in what it means to be "over" in the traditional sense of the word. Because while Jeff Hardy could return to WWE tomorrow and still get a crowd reaction similar to what he was getting when he left, he's not going to find that anywhere else. Even as late as the 90's, when Hulk Hogan or Savage jumped ship, they brought fans with them. Hardy's fans are WWE fans first, and if he's not on their TV every week they'll cheer for someone else rather than follow Hardy.
I do agree with that, and that is current fact that needs to be stated separately.

WWE Fans are WWE fans first. Fanbases to Wrestlers are secondary, for better or worse.

[djthefunkchris]

DJ, that's really only an accurate measure of who is more popular now; just because Cena is more popular in a search engine doesn't mean anything except that right now he's the biggest name in wrestling. But that could end overnight (see: Jeff Hardy). One thing I do agree with ampulator about is that there's a definite change in what it means to be "over" in the traditional sense of the word. Because while Jeff Hardy could return to WWE tomorrow and still get a crowd reaction similar to what he was getting when he left, he's not going to find that anywhere else. Even as late as the 90's, when Hulk Hogan or Savage jumped ship, they brought fans with them. Hardy's fans are WWE fans first, and if he's not on their TV every week they'll cheer for someone else rather than follow Hardy.

/nod, but there is alot of reasons for that... WCW for example, wasn't seated with several dozen irritating crowd members, and it appeared to be a MUCH bigger promotion then TNA comes off as. TNA looks like it's done in a gymnasium with chair's put out for people to sit in, not like an actual arena. It's not totally ubelievable that a high school gymnasium could look better.

Outside of that, TNA would be more like one of the old Territories in popularity comparisons... Meaning, they draw about as well, and that's giving them a few thousand extra's. The WWE is as well known as the NBA or the NFL, etc. with each player representing teams.

They don't do things as they should be done... The closest I seen is when Angle first come there and said he wanted to work his way up the roster, not just come in and dominate the world champion... They should do that with anyone, no matter where they come from. With Hardy, I feel they have dropped the ball..> what a unique character he could have been if he sat out more, and used this new gimmick as a way to get over to start with. Then have him win against lower cards, and bring him up the card till he is relevant within' that company. Poeple coming in and automatically getting to the main event BEFORE they even establish a character (just using the previous pop from WWE instead), then establishing who/what they are trying to be totally loses their value. Give's us a "Wow... he's gone downhilll since he left the WWE" Perspective.

That engine wasn't meant to be something to go by in wrestling standards, only something to give an idea as to what people outside of wrestling might feel about them. I wasn't trying to say "Oh looky, Cena is more popular then The Rock!" because in my opinion someone like him or even Austin for that matter, coming back in a big way would push Cena out of the way for at least a few month's (and would probably top him on that list). Cena's just more popular now because he has his hands in alot more things then the other's do.... Wrestling, Movies (and that last one was pretty good IMO), interviews, talk shows, etc. Just a busy person is all...

Anyways, my point is that you don't have to be "good in the ring" to draw, and not everyone that draws is. Not everyone that draws is horrible in the ring either, and it seems that sometimes that IWC crowd (or perhaps it's another) do think that if someone draws, they must suck... always going for the people they don't think will ever be main eventing, and when they do turn on them within' a few months.

[SaySo]

So, how about that WWE, eh? I hear the Miz is champion! That guy is Awesome!

http://img207.imageshack.us/img207/4003/mizpaperl.jpg

[djthefunkchris]

I do agree with that, and that is current fact that needs to be stated separately.

WWE Fans are WWE fans first. Fanbases to Wrestlers are secondary, for better or worse.

I would debate this completely. WWE fans are wrestling fans just as anyone else is.... The problem isn't the fans, it's the product. Put out a product that catch's on mainstream, and you can have the same amount of success... Put out a lesser product, with more popular stars, and people aren't going to be as interested.

If I start a brand new hamburger type resturante/fast food place, and everyone likes it better then anyone else's (or at least the same), I will eventually become as busy as the other one's in town providing I can service people in the same way. If I have a burger that the majority likes better, and can service them properly, I can end up doing so good as to make another one, and eventually a franchise that becomes the most popular of all the burger place's...

If I can't provide the service properly, no matter how great my Burger's are, I'm not going to get the bussiness that faster/better providing service's are going to get... I can have the best burger in the world, but if my resturant is unclean, it takes 10 times longer to shoot out an order, etc... I'm never going to succeed with my burgers.

Burger's = Wrestler's in that little comparison.

[ampulator]

I would debate this completely. WWE fans are wrestling fans just as anyone else is.... The problem isn't the fans, it's the product. Put out a product that catch's on mainstream, and you can have the same amount of success... Put out a lesser product, with more popular stars, and people aren't going to be as interested.

If I start a brand new hamburger type resturante/fast food place, and everyone likes it better then anyone else's (or at least the same), I will eventually become as busy as the other one's in town providing I can service people in the same way. If I have a burger that the majority likes better, and can service them properly, I can end up doing so good as to make another one, and eventually a franchise that becomes the most popular of all the burger place's...

If I can't provide the service properly, no matter how great my Burger's are, I'm not going to get the bussiness that faster/better providing service's are going to get... I can have the best burger in the world, but if my resturant is unclean, it takes 10 times longer to shoot out an order, etc... I'm never going to succeed with my burgers.

Burger's = Wrestler's in that little comparison.
I don't meant this was ALWAYS the case. But it is the case now. But Jeff Hardy wasn't Hogan or Austin or even Bret at the height of his popularity. TNA is hardly a good example.

But the way the business is now, the way that WWE does business, it's brand first, wrestlers are secondary. It's defensive manuever I disagree with, but it is what it is.

[djthefunkchris]

I don't meant this was ALWAYS the case. But it is the case now. But Jeff Hardy wasn't Hogan or Austin or even Bret at the height of his popularity. TNA is hardly a good example.

But the way the business is now, the way that WWE does business, it's brand first, wrestlers are secondary. It's defensive manuever I disagree with, but it is what it is.

I think I can come to some sort of agreement with you here..... The only thing I think we might differ from is if that's a good thing or not.

As I was saying, if you can't produce for the fans, then it doesn't matter how great your roster is...

For example.. TNA could aquire Cena, HHH, HBK, The Rock, Austin, etc... heck, give them Undertaker if it makes you happy... As long as they don't produce something interest in them, the popularity they would recieve from getting all these great icons at once, would be lost within' a matter of months, and they would be right back to where they are now.

They've proven that if they do something interesting, people do actually get involved, they do make new fans, and people will come and check them out.... but it's the old thing... don't advertise over what you can put out, if you expect people to come back. They talk as if they are the BEST, etc. They have the best talent, but they lack in all other area's. To me, even half the time their commentating is actually BETTER then WWE.. but they ruin it with their storylines and off the chart gimmicks (grabbing guys in the ring and such is NOT something I would want my kids to watch). To them it means your grown to throw up a middle finger and curse, or bleed... To me (and I'm far from the only person) it looks much more childish, and gives alot of the wrestler's an almost ignorant look ("boy has that guy gone downhill"). Everyone can't be Steve Austin, nor can they be ECW unless they have someone like Heyman giving you personalities that you can actually get into before they change their whole outlook on life.

Another example: I used to be a pretty popular DJ only a decade ago (last big gig I did was for the year 2000). IF I were to do something now, I would just advertise that "we" are doing something, what we are doing, and talk about just having a good time, come on out and have some fun. I wouldn't advertise myself as "The Best" or anything like that... I might not be able to fullfill that expectation if I did so, and so although THAT particular night would be a great win with me, as time goes by people would be put off that my show is sub-par to what I am advertising. So I downgrade it a little bit (come on out for a night of fun and dancing).. then I would try my best to give them alot more then what they expected, and believe me word of mouth makes the next night even better, and it only get's better from that point.

My point is, try to do better then expected. When you do that, you will always get more. It's better to have a 1.0, 1.1, 1.1, 1.2, and steadily climb to a steady 4.0, rather then have one night at 6.0, then next week drops to 4.0, then next week drops to 2.0, and from their on downhill. Don't expect people to come back if your going to advertise yourself OVER what you can deliver, because you WILL lose out on more then you could have gained in the long run by just being yourself.

[LoganRodzen]

I'm more of a lurker than a poster, but since it's thanksgiving...

I'd say shes a keeper :p

That's what most of my buddies are saying. Did I mention she bought me a 12/mo subscription to XBOX LIVE a few weeks ago... just for the hell of it? This gal holds the key to my heart. :o

Listen, Logan. I think we can all agree that it would've been rude to say that to you, because it would've heavily implied that we didn't trust your taste in women.

Well put, Linsolv. You're excused. :p

I just noticed this, lucky man! In light of recent events....


Miss Rodzen has gained popularity from this segment

Miss Rodzen has gained respect from this segment

Miss Rodzen has seen a boost to her Babyface performance skill from this segment

Logan Rodzen is now Loyal to Miss Rodzen

I loved this, Genadi. I'll have to show her this later today (she always sees me lurking on GDS... or "my nerd site" as she likes to put it).

I was thinking about going but then I remembered how much I hate the Fleet Center or whatever it is called now. That arena just stinks. Especially if you have cheap seats (which I often have). The seats in the upper part of the arena are built so that you are slanted forward, which makes you feel like you are going to fall forward, at least for me anyway. Also, it cost an arm and a leg to park anywhere remotely close to the Fleet Center.

I went to the Royal Rumble at MSG a couple of years ago (another arena that I am not fond of) and it was a good show. My major gripe was about the arena and not the show. They pretty much opened the arena to the public like a half an hour before the show began so it ended up being a sea of people all entering the building at once which I was not happy about at all. And then MSG itself is horribly dated on the inside. One can tell that it was built in the late 1960's.

I also went to the 1994 Royal Rumble which was at the Providence Civc Center. However, I do not recall much about it.

It sucks that they are holding in Boston because the Royal Rumble is my favorite PPV (yes even over Wrestle Mania, which much like the Super Bowl, is way over-hyped). I just wish that if they were going to have it in New England they would have it in Providence or Hartford because those arenas are just better in my opinion. Plus in Providence you do not have to pay to park if you are willing to walk a little bit.

I actually don't mind the TD Garden (formerly Fleet Center) that much. Like I said, I went to quite a few shows there and haven't had many issues. I will agree that they don't let you in very early before a show. Your half hour is right on the money if I'm remebering correctly. I went to a Smackdown taping in March (the Tuesday after WM 20) and can you imagine the weather in Boston? Sure, you can stand inside below the arena with a mob crowd waiting to get in... but I wish they would let you in sooner as well.

If I told you how much the tickets were for this show (with my brother's TD Bank discount) you'd throw away all your problems with the arena and you'd want to go. Tickets started at $78, but with his discount we're getting them for $30 A PIECE. I've sat in the rafters of that place (top floor, where the media sits) for RAW and still enjoyed the show.

And your problem with travel is understandable. Parking garages and whatnot in Boston are ridiculous, but what if you live in good ol' Maine and can take the Amtrak train right into the Garden from Portland? We'll most likely head down during the day that Sunday and hang out around Boston (I know the area and subway's very well because my aunt and cousins live down there) until it's time for the show. But yeah, we most likely won't be driving down anyway.

[Wrestling Century]

Cena? It's not that I dislike him. It's just that, no matter what anyone says to me, no one has shown me enough evidence that he is, in fact, a good worker. Can he get a reaction out of a certain kind of fan? Yes. Can he get a good reaction ouf of a certain kind of a fan? Yes. Does that means he's a good worker? No.


Have you ever seen John Cena's 2003-2004 matches? Because that was back before (at least IMO) he watered down his moveset. Especially see his match against The Big Show at WM20. You can't tell me that The Big Show carried him in that match. As much respect as I have for The Big Show (he is one of my favorite big/giant wrestlers ever), IMO there is no possible way that he carried Cena.

[crownsy]

Present evidence? It's plain for everyone to see. It's just that no one has seen it the way I have. The overall industry is dead. One hand, it's lost at the core of what it is (Jim Cornette's argument). On the other hand, it can't remake itself because there's nothing (Paul Heyman's argument). Though both of them are diametrical opposities, to some degree, both of them are right. Wrestling has at its core has moved off what it should be, while not adopting new things at the same time. That's the definition of "dying" to me. Wrestling isn't wrestling anymore, but at the same time, what it is is incredible stale.

It's in no-mans land. Wrestling needs to find out what it was before, and regonize it's limitations, yet attempt to rejuvenate itself. Otherwise, MMA would take the more pure-minded fans, new forms of entertainment would take away the the entertainment side of the fans, and then wrestling would be left with nothing.

Why does it occur to no one that somehow both Paul Heyman and Jim Cornette arrived to similar conclusions that MMA is the future, despite being diametrical opposites in style? Shouldn't that indicator to people that wrestling is going to die if it doesn't figure out what it is and what it stands for? Am I the only who sees a dying industry and wants to stop the bleeding? :(

The difference between the downtimes now, is there is no "other". There was always another promotion that can attract other fans in wrestling if they weren't into the dominant promotion. Now it's WWE. It holds almost all the market. It IS the industry for intents and purposes. Without other competition, there's nothing motivating them to grow, to be competitive. This also means fans that like wrestling but don't like WWE's style have little to no refuge. There's ROH and TNA, sure but they are bit players at best, with not enough exposure and coverage. A stagnant industry will eventually become a dead industry.

Amp, you make some good arguments, but i Can't help thinking if this message board had existed in 1992, we'd be hearing the exact same arguments from fans who grew up in the 80's about the product being trash.

I think the main thing is, Wrestling is a 10-18 entertainment form, for the most part. All my favorite segments/ workers come from that time period of my fandom. Do i still watch? yea, i catch smackdown and raw on DVR with my little brother but i'm not their target audience anymore, and I know it.

As every generation of wrestling fans age we feel alienated because the product isn't growing with us, and that leads to the "this is crap, the industry is dying" arguments.

But i'm quite sure that the WWE and competitors, be it TNA or otherwise, will be around forever as they grow new fans...mabey not at the same popularity level until they hit another "once every 10 years" talent, which i don't think the've done since rock and SC, but they will hook a new generation (already got my brothers, 10 and 12, respectively) and survive.

Then they'll change the product in 10 years to try to hook the next young group of fans and my brothers will replace me as the bitter old smark who misses the good ole days :D

[lazorbeak]

Amp, you make some good arguments, but i Can't help thinking if this message board had existed in 1992, we'd be hearing the exact same arguments from fans who grew up in the 80's about the product being trash.

I think the main thing is, Wrestling is a 10-18 entertainment form, for the most part. All my favorite segments/ workers come from that time period of my fandom. Do i still watch? yea, i catch smackdown and raw on DVR with my little brother but i'm not their target audience anymore, and I know it.

As every generation of wrestling fans age we feel alienated because the product isn't growing with us, and that leads to the "this is crap, the industry is dying" arguments.

But i'm quite sure that the WWE and competitors, be it TNA or otherwise, will be around forever as they grow new fans...mabey not at the same popularity level until they hit another "once every 10 years" talent, which i don't think the've done since rock and SC, but they will hook a new generation (already got my brothers, 10 and 12, respectively) and survive.

Then they'll change the product in 10 years to try to hook the next young group of fans and my brothers will replace me as the bitter old smark who misses the good ole days :D

Agree completely. And as many different factors contributed to wrestling's decline through the early to mid 1990's, including aging stars retiring or being phased out (Savage on commentary, Hogan making movies, etc.), a major force was that the product felt dated and out of touch. While pro-USA jingoism was at an all-time high in the 1980's, that formula stopped working after the Cold War ended, so Vince responded by turning Canadians into "evil foreigner" gimmicks. And it didn't get over.

What's missing from today is someone with the creativity of a Paul Heyman who can introduce something new to the business that gets over enough to influence WWE. As others and myself have said, WWE isn't going to be the positive change that moves the sport forward into the 21st century, because they don't see any economic reason to do so, even if it would be to their long term benefit.

[ampulator]

For example.. TNA could aquire Cena, HHH, HBK, The Rock, Austin, etc... heck, give them Undertaker if it makes you happy... As long as they don't produce something interest in them, the popularity they would recieve from getting all these great icons at once, would be lost within' a matter of months, and they would be right back to where they are now.


It's not that I approve of what the WWE does. I absolutely disapprove of it. It's just that, that's what they are now. They are no more Andre's, that can work somewhat independently of promotions on roam around areas making a lot of money for themselves... and different promoters and promotions.

But it's WWE's corporatization. It kills off a lot of chances of Austin's, Rock's, and Hogan's coming into existence. I know why why they are doing this. I just think it's especially pointless, considering, any talent they believe they are too "big" for the WWE have nowhere to go within wrestling, and their other option is move outside of the WWE. It's not that big of a risk.

Have you ever seen John Cena's 2003-2004 matches? Because that was back before (at least IMO) he watered down his moveset. Especially see his match against The Big Show at WM20. You can't tell me that The Big Show carried him in that match. As much respect as I have for The Big Show (he is one of my favorite big/giant wrestlers ever), IMO there is no possible way that he carried Cena.

I never been impressed with his work. And it's not that I disliked him, before. I've just never been impressed. That beind said, he didn't start irking me until became full-on Hogan-style face.

[Slim Jim]

What's missing from today is someone with the creativity of a Paul Heyman who can introduce something new to the business that gets over enough to influence WWE. As others and myself have said, WWE isn't going to be the positive change that moves the sport forward into the 21st century, because they don't see any economic reason to do so, even if it would be to their long term benefit.

I read somewhere recently (may have been here, I really can't recall) that WWE have fired 3 or 4 of their writing team in the last few weeks, so maybe with a bit of turnover, someone with fresh ideas and some creativity will get a look in within the 'E soon enough. Can always hope, anyway.

[TakerNGN74]

To me, even half the time their commentating is actually BETTER then WWE..

I agree with most of the stuff you are saying but not with this statement, if you watch a TNA Match the commentators never shut up and let you take something in. If you watch WWE if there is something important that you need to hear then they will shut up and let you hear it. TNA's commentators never shut up, it was a lot worse when Don West was around but to say that TNA's commentary is better than WWE's I have to disagree with you. The only factor that I would consider to why TNA's commentary is better than the WWE's is because TNA doesn't have Michael Cole to kiss anyones ass.

[djthefunkchris]

I agree with most of the stuff you are saying but not with this statement, if you watch a TNA Match the commentators never shut up and let you take something in. If you watch WWE if there is something important that you need to hear then they will shut up and let you hear it. TNA's commentators never shut up, it was a lot worse when Don West was around but to say that TNA's commentary is better than WWE's I have to disagree with you. The only factor that I would consider to why TNA's commentary is better than the WWE's is because TNA doesn't have Michael Cole to kiss anyones ass.

I should have added IMO onto that. Perhaps half the time might even have been a little too much, but at times I do think that team sounds better when calling a match... and I believe they are capable of commentating better then WWE (if they changed the things you mentioned). Kind of like the rest of their show, they have killer worker's, but they aren't ever used in a way to get people invested enough to make it matter.

[JTandSilentBob]

So I'm on my to the wicomico youth and civic center to watch Juan Cenas first ever appearance. I'll be sure to drop back in and let everybody know how the show was.

[Jaysin]

I should have added IMO onto that. Perhaps half the time might even have been a little too much, but at times I do think that team sounds better when calling a match... and I believe they are capable of commentating better then WWE (if they changed the things you mentioned). Kind of like the rest of their show, they have killer worker's, but they aren't ever used in a way to get people invested enough to make it matter.

I dunno, I think Tenay and Taz have excellent chemistry teaming together. They play off each other so well.

Taz and Cole sucked, Taz and Joey Styles was ok, but Taz and Tenay? I like them :p

[MattitudeV2]

I dunno, I think Tenay and Taz have excellent chemistry teaming together. They play off each other so well.

Taz and Cole sucked, Taz and Joey Styles was ok, but Taz and Tenay? I like them :p

No way, Tazz and Cole were a good team, Taz and Styles were a great team and Taz with Tenay is just like West and Tenay always arguing with each other way to much. It I was behind the scenes in TNA I would have Mick Foley be the color man for TNA and use Taz as either a manager or and authority figure or just let him walk.

[Jaysin]

No way, Tazz and Cole were a good team, Taz and Styles were a great team and Taz with Tenay is just like West and Tenay always arguing with each other way to much. It I was behind the scenes in TNA I would have Mick Foley be the color man for TNA and use Taz as either a manager or and authority figure or just let him walk.

Nothing with Cole has ever been good. I have hated him since day one. Don't compare Taz with West. Taz and Tenay have argued recently, but for the most part they're out there having fun which makes the program that much more fun for me to watch.

"Taz'isms" are also awesome. LET THE PIGEONS LOOSE!

[LoNdOn]

Nothing with Cole has ever been good. I have hated him since day one. Don't compare Taz with West. Taz and Tenay have argued recently, but for the most part they're out there having fun which makes the program that much more fun for me to watch.

"Taz'isms" are also awesome. LET THE PIGEONS LOOSE!

This is probably not the wisest question to ask, but is Taz basically saying "Get thy wods out"?

[Astil]

This is probably not the wisest question to ask, but is Taz basically saying "Get thy wods out"?

For sooth.

[JTandSilentBob]

Well the show is over. Santino and Koslov lost to nexus. Natalya beat Alicia Fox. Goldust lost to Jackson Andrews, Zack Ryder lost to R Truth. Morrison lost to Shaemus. Miz beat Wade Barrett, and Juan Cena. Afterward Cena Attitude Adjusted Miz and Riley. The show was very poor compared to others that I've been to.

[foolinc]

Well the show is over. Santino and Koslov lost to nexus. Natalya beat Alicia Fox. Goldust lost to Jackson Andrews, Zack Ryder lost to R Truth. Morrison lost to Shaemus. Miz beat Wade Barrett, and Juan Cena. Afterward Cena Attitude Adjusted Miz and Riley. The show was very poor compared to others that I've been to.

Pics of the masked Juan Cena?

[djthefunkchris]

Pics of the masked Juan Cena?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auM5_tOvO9s ?

[Hitman23]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auM5_tOvO9s ?

Its the exact same mask as Mr America but a different color

[ampulator]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auM5_tOvO9s ?
WWE: Really? I know you guys lack creativity... but... come on. Try harder.

[Stennick]

Its a house show guys, he's just there because they commited to having John Cena at these shows and need all the happy people they can get going to these house shows.

I\

[crownsy]

WWE: Really? I know you guys lack creativity... but... come on. Try harder.

There not going to bother, it's strictly a house show gimmick.

[ampulator]

There not going to bother, it's strictly a house show gimmick.
I hope it's only at house shows... if it goes down the Mr. America route on TV, that's going to bom the whole storyline...

[Candyman]

I hope it's only at house shows... if it goes down the Mr. America route on TV, that's going to bom the whole storyline...

The Hulk Hogan/Mr. America storyline was nothing more than comedic relief...there's no way they're going to put Juan Cena on TV. Like others said, they just need a way to get him on house shows.

[djthefunkchris]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wKClxSRsg0

Juan looks good in the ring, lol.

[Hashasheen]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wKClxSRsg0

Juan looks good in the ring, lol.

:( I was hoping for some lucha stuff, man. Hurricana's, planchas, you name it.

[fatallylost]

Hold on.... guys, I don't think that's John Cena.

Where is Hogan at?

http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/pictures/h/hulkhogan2/33.jpg

[alden]

Am I the only one who enjoyed the Mr. America stuff? I mean come on....it was ment to be cheese. Brother all the time, piper knowing it was hogan and vince trying to prove it. It was funny as heck to me to be honest.

[lazorbeak]

Its the exact same mask as Mr America but a different color

Well, it is a lucha mask, so in that sense they are the same. But yeah, no, not the same mask.

WWE: Really? I know you guys lack creativity... but... come on. Try harder.

Personally, I love this gimmick. It's old-school, it's fun, and it's an "inside joke" that everyone gets. I see where it's not really where you want to take the angle on TV every week, as the angle hasn't been campy and fun to this point, but seriously, there is nothing about Juan Cena I don't love.

Also Mr. America was a lot of fun and I won't hear a bad word against it.

[jhd1]

Personally, I love this gimmick. It's old-school, it's fun, and it's an "inside joke" that everyone gets. I see where it's not really where you want to take the angle on TV every week, as the angle hasn't been campy and fun to this point, but seriously, there is nothing about Juan Cena I don't love.

I wholeheartedly agree, as shown by this post from the 5th of November...

Fully agree, although I can't be the only one hoping that John Cena gets fired and Charlie Brown from Outta Town Jr. debuts the next night. And yes, I am serious, and yes I do realise this is not the WWE thread but where else am I going to crowbar that admission in!? :p

...okay, so it isn't Charlie Brown but it's still great :D

[The Final Countdown]

I'm pretty surprised to see Bryan vs. Del Rio in the opening round of KOTR--I figured Del Rio would win by beating either Bryan or Morrison in the Finals. And Morrison's in their half of the bracket, too. Strange.

[i effin rule]

First RAW I've watched in quite a while, but I'm a sucker for KOTR.


I marked something fierce for Punk in a Colt Cabana shirt though!

[Comradebot]

Wow. Excellent match. Del Rio really showed he can go with Bryan.

[Johnny Fenoli]

I'm pretty surprised to see Bryan vs. Del Rio in the opening round of KOTR--I figured Del Rio would win by beating either Bryan or Morrison in the Finals. And Morrison's in their half of the bracket, too. Strange.

It's the build for Morrison vs Sheamus final, continue the feud.... :(

[Johnny Fenoli]

Wow. Excellent match. Del Rio really showed he can go with Bryan.

Del Rio's great.... Good on the mic, good in the ring, good facial expressions. But you... you already knew that.

[The Final Countdown]

It's the build for Morrison vs Sheamus final, continue the feud.... :(
Yeah, I guess that's the way it's going. I just assumed that they'd decided to run KOTR specifically to have Del Rio win. "King Alberto" just seemed like such a no-brainer to me. Adding the crown on top of the expensive car and the personal ring announcer? It'd be perfect.

[i effin rule]

I may have to watch RAW more often, just for Punk's commentary. Though I can't imagine him lasting very long with what he's saying and WWE being PG.


I did laugh a good bit at him comparing Pat Patterson and Cody Rhodes.

[The Final Countdown]

Sheamus is about to get a bye straight to the finals after he beats Kofi. There goes any shot for Alberto. :(

Well, at least my man Daniel Bryan is still a chick magnet. :D

[March]

The outcome to this tournament just became very obvious.

[Prophet]

Tournament schmernament ... Lawler for champ! lol

[Johnny Fenoli]

the Miz vs Lawler match is a way to test Punk and Cole as a two man team.... So they can ditch the King....

[jwt13]

IMO they are making miz jerchio rip off is that just me?

[Comradebot]

Did they seriously just job the awesome duo of Gabriel and Slater to the team of jobber and fat jobber? :(

[Johnny Fenoli]

Damn You! Damn You, You Little Chiuaua!!! Alberto Shoulda Been King!!

[Comradebot]

Damn You! Damn You, You Little Chiuaua!!! Alberto Shoulda Been King!!

Oh well... time for Sheamus to even up the feud!

And did y'all here it? CM Punk, the first commentator in over a decade to remind us Mabel won KotR!!!!

[The Final Countdown]

Oh well... time for Sheamus to even up the feud!
Bleh.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Whooa........ Darren Young is still on the roster????? Where'd he come from?!

[March]

Whooa........ Darren Young is still on the roster????? Where'd he come from?!

screw Juan Cena.. there's your disguise right there.

[Johnny Fenoli]

What if they give the King the title tonight?... Then he retires for good.... Seeing as they got CM Punk on the commentator team now anyway.




screw Juan Cena.. there's your disguise right there.

lol, that would've been funny.


Edit:
WWE Divas = Pure Wrestling Excellence

Poor Maurice... she had weak partners....

[Comradebot]

What if they give the King the title tonight?... Then he retires for good.... Seeing as they got CM Punk on the commentator team now anyway.






lol, that would've been funny.


Edit:
WWE Divas = Pure Wrestling Excellence

Poor Maurice... she had weak partners....


Isn't Punk only out of action for about three months? Personally, I think the best booking here is to let Jerry put up a good fight, but lose. You enter Arquette territory when your champ loses to a 61 year old man.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Isn't Punk only out of action for about three months? Personally, I think the best booking here is to let Jerry put up a good fight, but lose. You enter Arquette territory when your champ loses to a 61 year old man.

yeah, I agree.... What if they just have this be Kings farewell... they had the video package and everything....

[Astil]

Great match.

[Comradebot]

Great match.

Agreed. Those two work very well together. And all hail the king!!!!

[Astil]

I love CM Punk

[The Final Countdown]

Punk: "What if it was me in there? Would you be rooting for The Miz?"
Cole: "Yes."
:D

[Astil]

Another great match. Good RAW.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Great match for a 61 year old wrestler.... Psychology and mannerisms go a long way dont they?

[Comradebot]

Great match for a 61 year old wrestler.... Psychology and mannerisms go a long way dont they?

I was about to say... it's just like TEW! Jerry isn't as athletic as he used to be, can't do all the moves he use to... but he has excellent performance skills, because you don't lose those with age.

Good bout out of a 61 year old, though deep down I was hoping to see the piledriver through a table! Sadly, they didn't even tease it.

Oh... and insert a random "I <3 Sheamus" comment here.

[The Celt]

Gach adhradh os comhair na hArd-Rí

[Comradebot]

Gach adhradh os comhair na hArd-Rí

Go deimhin.

[angeldelayette]

I may have been the only person rooting and wishing for Jerry Lawler to win tonight. When Michael Cole stopped him and The Miz was climbing the ladder I was rooting for CM Punk to jump into the ring and even up the odds by stopping The Miz from climbing the ladder. And I popped hard when Lawler punched Michael Cole!

[TakerNGN74]

Overall Raw was enjoyable I was actually cheering for King to win but the Micheal Cole thing was way to predictable and it is getting really dumb. Am I the only one that thinks its rediculas that the Raw two weeks ago was three hours last nights was three hours and the one two weeks from last night will be three hours. Its seems the E is really throwing the three hour Raws around to use them before the year is up.

[ampulator]

Well, it is a lucha mask, so in that sense they are the same. But yeah, no, not the same mask.



Personally, I love this gimmick. It's old-school, it's fun, and it's an "inside joke" that everyone gets. I see where it's not really where you want to take the angle on TV every week, as the angle hasn't been campy and fun to this point, but seriously, there is nothing about Juan Cena I don't love.

Also Mr. America was a lot of fun and I won't hear a bad word against it.
My problem isn't Mr. America. My problem is you can't covert a serious storyline into a campy one, or, if you do, you have to have skillz. WWE currently doesn't have skillz.

[juggaloninjalee]

I also wanted King to win the championship. Loved Cole getting laid out. Knew Sheamus would win KOTR espescially after the double count out. I am kinda excited to watch the Slammys in 2 weeks. Also did you guys know Tough Enough is doing a casting call right now? USA is bringing that show to their station. I can't wait.

[crownsy]

I also wanted King to win the championship. Loved Cole getting laid out. Knew Sheamus would win KOTR espescially after the double count out. I am kinda excited to watch the Slammys in 2 weeks. Also did you guys know Tough Enough is doing a casting call right now? USA is bringing that show to their station. I can't wait.

I also didn't care one iota about how blatant they are being about trips coming back.

Between Ted JR playing with a toy belt that did his music, about 47 referances by punk to the king of kings and trips winning in the past, and the "Long live the KIIINNNGGG" statement by shemus they went out of thier way to get it set up

and you know what, i don't care one bit. Bring on the shemus-trips fued please :D

[juggaloninjalee]

I also didn't care one iota about how blatant they are being about trips coming back.

Between Ted JR playing with a toy belt that did his music, about 47 referances by punk to the king of kings and trips winning in the past, and the "Long live the KIIINNNGGG" statement by shemus they went out of thier way to get it set up

and you know what, i don't care one bit. Bring on the shemus-trips fued please :D

I am all for Triple H returning to feud with the Celtic Warrior. Cena feuding with Barrett is still good as well. Miz going to be feuding with Randy Orton I think and Morrison may have a part in the Triple H Sheamus feud possibly or is he left out to dry again?

[Hive]

Did it ever get revealed who the "secret evil GM" was...? I thought it was supposed to be Triple H, but if he's coming back to feud with a heel Sheamus... :confused:

[crownsy]

I am all for Triple H returning to feud with the Celtic Warrior. Cena feuding with Barrett is still good as well. Miz going to be feuding with Randy Orton I think and Morrison may have a part in the Triple H Sheamus feud possibly or is he left out to dry again?

Im kinda hoping they find a way to gracefully get randy out of the title hunt and have Miz v. Morrision fued.

What I would do is have Barrett cost Orton the rematch at TLC, then have them beat down randy leading to a "I don't like you, but i do respect you....Lets finish these guys" type of alliance between cena-orton to take out the nexus

I would book it like a hunt them one at a time horror movie for nexus with them getting tricked and outsmarted and losing guys one at a time to setups by cena-orton

You can go anywhere from there. turn one of them heel eventually to join nexus, trim the fat and have nexus stay stronger by getting down to 5 or 4 guys (thats my main problem with Nexus, to many guys....need to be down to Wade and like 3 sidekicks. Seven is just unmanageable)

[juggaloninjalee]

Im kinda hoping they find a way to gracefully get randy out of the title hunt and have Miz v. Morrision fued.

What I would do is have Barrett cost Orton the rematch at TLC, then have them beat down randy leading to a "I don't like you, but i do respect you....Lets finish these guys" type of alliance between cena-orton to take out the nexus

I would book it like a hunt them one at a time horror movie for nexus with them getting tricked and outsmarted and losing guys one at a time to setups by cena-orton

You can go anywhere from there. turn one of them heel eventually to join nexus, trim the fat and have nexus stay stronger by getting down to 5 or 4 guys (thats my main problem with Nexus, to many guys....need to be down to Wade and like 3 sidekicks. Seven is just unmanageable)

I would like that. It gets down to David Otunga, and Wade Barrett vs Cena and Orton. Cena turns on Orton but lays Orton over Otunga for the win. Cena then stands over a fallen Orton and does his you can't see me hand sign.

Cena = heel
Orton wants to get to Cena then.
Wade Barrett and Otunga can fight for leadership of Nexus splitting the group up into 2.
Miz can feud with Morrison or whoever for the World Title.
Sheamus and Triple H can still feud.

This could be at the Royal Rumble maybe? After Morrison who would Miz feud with? CM Punk? Nothing makes sense to me.

[Linsolv]

I would like that. It gets down to David Otunga, and Wade Barrett vs Cena and Orton. Cena turns on Orton but lays Orton over Otunga for the win. Cena then stands over a fallen Orton and does his you can't see me hand sign.

Cena = heel
Orton wants to get to Cena then.
Wade Barrett and Otunga can fight for leadership of Nexus splitting the group up into 2.
Miz can feud with Morrison or whoever for the World Title.
Sheamus and Triple H can still feud.

This could be at the Royal Rumble maybe? After Morrison who would Miz feud with? CM Punk? Nothing makes sense to me.

I don't see it. Cena's not going to turn, at least not like that. I could see it happening the OPPOSITE way, where Orton RKOs Cena and then lays his lifeless body over [whoever] for the pin. But not the other way round.

[Stennick]

Cena's not turning especially not now he's sort of stepping in on Orton because now he's a super face but also a renegade that doesn't have to play by the rules.

Raw was fun but it wasted that great promo by Cena the week before by not leaving him off the show.

I would have kept Cena home until after the pay per view atleast.

[The Final Countdown]

Cena's not turning especially not now he's sort of stepping in on Orton because now he's a super face but also a renegade that doesn't have to play by the rules.

Raw was fun but it wasted that great promo by Cena the week before by not leaving him off the show.

I would have kept Cena home until after the pay per view atleast.
Completely agree. That "farewell" promo was pretty pointless if he isn't going to take even one week off.

[juggaloninjalee]

I know Cena won't turn heel. It's wishful thinking on my part. If he was heel I would be a major fan of his. I like Orton as he is now so I don't want him to be a heel again.

[Bigpapa42]

Completely agree. That "farewell" promo was pretty pointless if he isn't going to take even one week off.

Yeah. Its annoying. That was a fantastic promo. Yet because he isn't disappearing, that emotion that felt fairly real seems plastic now.

[Stennick]

I know Cena won't turn heel. It's wishful thinking on my part. If he was heel I would be a major fan of his. I like Orton as he is now so I don't want him to be a heel again.

You're not a heel mark are you? I mean you don't even know what character he would have as a heel so its not really that great to say "if this guy was a heel I'd like him".

Personally I find Stone Cold Randy Orton still incredibly bland. Orton hasn't EVER cut a promo a tenth of what John Cena cut the other night.

[juggaloninjalee]

You're not a heel mark are you? I mean you don't even know what character he would have as a heel so its not really that great to say "if this guy was a heel I'd like him".

Personally I find Stone Cold Randy Orton still incredibly bland. Orton hasn't EVER cut a promo a tenth of what John Cena cut the other night.

Yes and no. I do typically like heels more. I like Cena but I would be super stoaked if he turned heel. Only 1 thing bothers me about Orton and thats when he begins flailing his arms when he is fired up. Doesn't look natural to me. Kinda looks dumb.

Cena heel like when he held the US Title on Smackdown is what I want. Him using the chain again to knock opponents out. That was the Cena I loved. He doesn't need to rap. Just that type of not giving a damn attitude is what made me like him.

[ampulator]

Yes and no. I do typically like heels more. I like Cena but I would be super stoaked if he turned heel. Only 1 thing bothers me about Orton and thats when he begins flailing his arms when he is fired up. Doesn't look natural to me. Kinda looks dumb.

Cena heel like when he held the US Title on Smackdown is what I want. Him using the chain again to knock opponents out. That was the Cena I loved. He doesn't need to rap. Just that type of not giving a damn attitude is what made me like him.
If he comes back, I would love to see it.

[Wrestling Century]

Am I the only person who noticed that all of the newer/younger talent were the only people who had promos and wrestled (other than Jerry Lawler, and Cena and R-Truth with the promo, and possibly a few others I might be forgetting). What I'm trying to say is that I think that WWE is going in the right direction, by actually giving depth to their midcard and Main Event scene by freshning it up with younger talent.

[djthefunkchris]

Am I the only person who noticed that all of the newer/younger talent were the only people who had promos and wrestled (other than Jerry Lawler, and Cena and R-Truth with the promo, and possibly a few others I might be forgetting). What I'm trying to say is that I think that WWE is going in the right direction, by actually giving depth to their midcard and Main Event scene by freshning it up with younger talent.

They've been pushing the younger guys down our throats for like two or three years now.... The difference being is that some of the new guys look like men instead of boys, and some of the one's that looked like boys a couple years ago are starting to look like men now... so it's working better.

As far as Cena goes... I remember him promising to beat the heck out of Nexus no matter what happened.... So I kind of think we are going to see him start nailing them down every Raw, till whatever it is that Nexus guy is thinking about doing.... Anyone have any idea's on what that might be?

[Fantabulous]

Will Michael Cole just outright blow The Miz next week?

[SaySo]

Michael Cole did what any mark in his position would have done. He's a Miz mark. And when he saw the person he worked with almost grab that belt, he did the right thing. If you were in his shoes, you would do the same.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Michael Cole did what any mark in his position would have done. He's a Miz mark. And when he saw the person he worked with almost grab that belt, he did the right thing. If you were in his shoes, you would do the same.

:rolleyes:

[Comradebot]

You're not a heel mark are you? I mean you don't even know what character he would have as a heel so its not really that great to say "if this guy was a heel I'd like him".

Personally I find Stone Cold Randy Orton still incredibly bland. Orton hasn't EVER cut a promo a tenth of what John Cena cut the other night.

This.

I think Orton is better than he used to be, but I still don't care much for him. He's still a weird looking guy who couldn't cut an entertaining promo to save his life. Blandy is still Blandy, make no mistake about it.

I'll happily continue to mark out for Sheamus and Wade Barrett in the upper levels of the card, thank you very much. :D

[Basmat01]

Well Kaithlyn won NXT. She was always the most interesting one and I enjoyed her mini feud with Vicki lol The right chick won.

And Season 4 NXT Rookies and Pros, if you have'nt seen them yet

Brodus Clay - Ted Dibiase and Maryse
Byron Saxton - Chris Masters
Conor O'Brian - Alberto Del Rio
Derrick Bateman - Daniel Bryan
Jacob Novak - Dolph Ziggler and Vicki Guerrero
Johnny Curtis - R-Truth

[Johnny Fenoli]

Well Kaithlyn won NXT. She was always the most interesting one and I enjoyed her mini feud with Vicki lol The right chick won.

And Season 4 NXT Rookies and Pros, if you have'nt seen them yet

Brodus Clay - Ted Dibiase and Maryse
Byron Saxton - Chris Masters
Conor O'Brian - Alberto Del Rio
Derrick Bateman - Daniel Bryan
Jacob Novak - Dolph Ziggler and Vicki Guerrero
Johnny Curtis - R-Truth

no internet indie wrestling darling... lots of big guys it looks like.

[Linsolv]

I thought NXT was getting pulled after season [edit: 3].

[March]

Conan O'Brian is on NXT?

[Prophet]

no internet indie wrestling darling... lots of big guys it looks like.

Unless you count G-Rilla, who I think is the most known commodity outside of the WWE circle competing in season 4. Guessing Matthew's inside jokes will be aimed squarely at Byron Saxon too. lol

[djthefunkchris]

Conan O'Brian is on NXT?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev_X_ME7Vc

[LoNdOn]

Well Kaithlyn won NXT. She was always the most interesting one and I enjoyed her mini feud with Vicki lol The right chick won.

And Season 4 NXT Rookies and Pros, if you have'nt seen them yet

Brodus Clay - Ted Dibiase and Maryse
Byron Saxton - Chris Masters
Conor O'Brian - Alberto Del Rio
Derrick Bateman - Daniel Bryan
Jacob Novak - Dolph Ziggler and Vicki Guerrero
Johnny Curtis - R-Truth

No Rollins, no Steamboat? No care! :p

At least Bryan is a pro :D

[Self]

Well Kaithlyn won NXT. She was always the most interesting one and I enjoyed her mini feud with Vicki lol The right chick won.

Naomi's not a bad little worker. That match with AJ last week was pretty good. I can see her being a useful addition to the roster. She doesn't have the charisma of Kaitlyn, so I think Naomi needed the win more. Kaitlyn would slot in anywhere, even if she didn't win. Runner-Up Naomi risks getting lost in the shuffle, which is a shame because she's quite good.

But yeah, big fan of Kaitlyn. Hope she gets to do something.

[March]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vev_X_ME7Vc

LOL. I'm gonna go download this.

[LoNdOn]

Naomi's not a bad little worker. That match with AJ last week was pretty good. I can see her being a useful addition to the roster. She doesn't have the charisma of Kaitlyn, so I think Naomi needed the win more. Kaitlyn would slot in anywhere, even if she didn't win. Runner-Up Naomi risks getting lost in the shuffle, which is a shame because she's quite good.

But yeah, big fan of Kaitlyn. Hope she gets to do something.

Hopefully that something is me! :p

[TheKenwyne]

Hopefully that something is me! :p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yl3UMO-TkE

[Jaysin]

Derrick Bateman is a local wrestler that went by Michael Hutter. He has the entertainment skills and wasn't bad in the ring. So I'm cheering for him.

When he was wrestling here he had a gimmick where he was better than the fans and we weren't privileged enough to hear his entrance music, so he listened to it on his iPod as he came to the ring and did all his taunts and danced to it. It was priceless.

I'm also liking the look and attitude of Johnny Curtis.

[GatorBait19]

so could Juan Cena be better then the Mr. America gimmick?

[MattitudeV2]

Derrick Bateman is a local wrestler that went by Michael Hutter. He has the entertainment skills and wasn't bad in the ring. So I'm cheering for him.

When he was wrestling here he had a gimmick where he was better than the fans and we weren't privileged enough to hear his entrance music, so he listened to it on his iPod as he came to the ring and did all his taunts and danced to it. It was priceless.

I'm also liking the look and attitude of Johnny Curtis.

Also Bateman being from Cleveland could make for some good tv with The Miz.

[crownsy]

so could Juan Cena be better then the Mr. America gimmick?

Don't think we can tell, no storyline is ever going to be written for Juan.

I didn't care for the mr America storyline but it had skits, promos ect.

Juan just shows up at house shows

[Johnny Fenoli]

Don't think we can tell, no storyline is ever going to be written for Juan.

I didn't care for the mr America storyline but it had skits, promos ect.

Juan just shows up at house shows

What if Juan starts getting over in the house shows, getting a good reaction?... they might bring him up to the main roster......

[Comradebot]

What if Juan starts getting over in the house shows, getting a good reaction?... they might bring him up to the main roster......

Could you imagine if him and his cousin teamed up :eek:

[GatorBait19]

Could you imagine if him and his cousin teamed up :eek:

EPIC!!! I heard he is Mexican, but looks pale white.

[Johnny Fenoli]

EPIC!!! I heard he is Mexican, but looks pale white.

yeah, they got very similar body types too... I dont think Juan's as strong as John though, but he looks a lil bit quicker. He definitely more of a mat technician that John.

[Basmat01]

What if Juan starts getting over in the house shows, getting a good reaction?... they might bring him up to the main roster......

Its going to get a good reaction no matter what. Everything about it is John Cena just with a mask

[Comradebot]

EPIC!!! I heard he is Mexican, but looks pale white.

Now now, anyone who has lived down here in Texas will tell you there's plenty of folks of Mexican heritage who have relatively light skin.

Clearly, Juan Cena is such an individual.

[Hashasheen]

Now now, anyone who has lived down here in Texas will tell you there's plenty of folks of Mexican heritage who have relatively light skin.

Clearly, Juan Cena is such an individual.

El Generico is another such individual. :cool:

[SaySo]

Could you imagine if him and his cousin teamed up :eek:

Greatest Tag Team Ever. Period!

[Johnny Fenoli]

WWE has come to terms on release of @The305MVP as of Dec. 2. http://ow.ly/3j6wZ WWE wishes MVP the best in all future endeavors

[UkWrestleFan]

Shame :(

Hope TNA pick him up and put him to good use.

[PeterHilton]

Giant waste. Whoever is evaluating talent has dropped the ball a lot recently.

[Stennick]

In 2006 I thought MVP was going to be HUGE, they never really did much with him outside of his initial run. Of course that could be said for so many guys.

Speaking of which where is Gordy's son at?

[TheKenwyne]

Giant waste. Whoever is evaluating talent has dropped the ball a lot recently.

Agreed. Gallows and Archer were pretty talented in ring for men of their size, and MVP had the potential to be massively over, hell, he IS quite over - didn't he have an IC title shot on Smackdown a few weeks that Ziggles had to cheat to win? Bah. Poor guy. Even without any particular attention from creative he was holding a solid midcard slot, and with pushing he's good enough on the mic and decent enough between the ropes to main event TV shows at least... seems a silly, silly call to me.

On the plus side, no more 'Ballin'!'. Drop to grounded opponent with some theatrics (see Rock, Hogan) good, with about a minute of theatrics baaaaaad.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Just when I was reminiscing his heydays on SD! as the ballin' heel he was, and his feud with Matt Hardy... this ish happens.

[ampulator]

Giant waste. Whoever is evaluating talent has dropped the ball a lot recently.
They dropped the ball on him a while ago. They never really consistently pushed after his good initial hell run and push.

[Fantabulous]

He never got back into good graces since mouthing off to one of the testers a few years ago.

[Johnny Fenoli]

I dont know how you dont push a guy who's getting as good of reactions WITHOUT a push, as he does?

I guess cause he's 37 years old?

[ampulator]

I dont know how you dont push a guy who's getting as good of reactions WITHOUT a push, as he does?

I guess cause he's 37 years old?
That, but he does have a good reaction. Had he come to the WWE in his 20's he'll probably have been a bigger hit.

[Johnny Fenoli]

That, but he does have a good reaction. Had he come to the WWE in his 20's he'll probably have been a bigger hit.

too bad he was wrestling for cigarettes back then....

[Tha Black Phenom]

He never got back into good graces since mouthing off to one of the testers a few years ago.

Well, he did get an US title reign out of it in 09... and a fulfilling midcarder feud with The Miz, although it elevated Miz more than anything. But both of them really hustled on that one.

[Fantabulous]

and a fulfilling midcarder feud with The Miz, although it elevated Miz more than anything.
Where it felt like they were wrestling each other in some fashion for 6 weeks straight or something. And didn't every match see Miz sneak out a victory or keep the title in some fashion?

[PeterHilton]

I just always felt like MVP was one of the few where they got the gimmick right; he dressed and spoke like a 'modern athlete.' They gave him the right entrance. Even his BAAAALLIn schtick was relevant when he started doing it.

It's a shame R Truth can do some hackneyed rapper gimmick that was out of date 10 years ago and MVP gets cut loose.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Where it felt like they were wrestling each other in some fashion for 6 weeks straight or something. And didn't every match see Miz sneak out a victory or keep the title in some fashion?

They only faced on two PPVs(Rumble, EC). Rest were tag team bouts as ShowMiz was in full swing and Miz had one of his stand-out promos in that feud(the one where he referenced JBL). They had solid confrontations, with some interaction during the Rumble.

Edit: MVP's twitter says he asked for his release.

[Johnny Fenoli]

They only faced on two PPVs(Rumble, EC). Rest were tag team bouts as ShowMiz was in full swing and Miz had one of his stand-out promos in that feud(the one where he referenced JBL). They had solid confrontations, with some interaction during the Rumble.

Edit: MVP's twitter says he asked for his release.

yeah he asked for it, because he was so unhappy about not being used.

[Hyde Hill]

In 2006 I thought MVP was going to be HUGE, they never really did much with him outside of his initial run. Of course that could be said for so many guys.

Speaking of which where is Gordy's son at?

Jesse Quit/was released. If I remember correctly. If that was Gordy's son. They really dropped the ball on MVP though.

[Stennick]

Yeah that was him

[ampulator]

I just always felt like MVP was one of the few where they got the gimmick right; he dressed and spoke like a 'modern athlete.' They gave him the right entrance. Even his BAAAALLIn schtick was relevant when he started doing it.

It's a shame R Truth can do some hackneyed rapper gimmick that was out of date 10 years ago and MVP gets cut loose.
Well, you shouldn't be surprised. They weren't doing anything of circumstance with him in a while.

[GruntMark]

I just always felt like MVP was one of the few where they got the gimmick right; he dressed and spoke like a 'modern athlete.' They gave him the right entrance. Even his BAAAALLIn schtick was relevant when he started doing it.

It's a shame R Truth can do some hackneyed rapper gimmick that was out of date 10 years ago and MVP gets cut loose.

Cant...cant they both be awful?

Cause they are/were.

[b0shey]

Ah man, shame MVP was released, really surprised R-Truth has lasted this long

[PeterHilton]

Well, you shouldn't be surprised. They weren't doing anything of circumstance with him in a while.

Not surprised. Disappointed.

Cant...cant they both be awful?

Cause they are/were.

I disagree

[crownsy]

Ah man, shame MVP was released, really surprised R-Truth has lasted this long

Truth is over and doesn't seem to mind that he's a midcarder with occasional uppermid pushes

MVP has chaffed at his push for at least a year and ASKED to be released

Big difference

I also never got the MVP is being misused bit. I liked him As a solid midcarder but never considered him main event material

Slow, boring ring work mixed with hit or miss promos for me. I will agree he was Better as a heel. I think they missed a huge storyline when they didn't slow turn him heel after lebron.

I would have had him defend lebron and say they fans are idiots and do treat pro athletes like property Etc

Heel heat would have been massive everywhere but south beach :)

[Candyman]

For those who didn't see the actual tweet, MVP said he's "it's time to go international." Sounds like Japan. I know blaming creative is the easy(aka lazy and not completely accurate) thing to do, but when the creative's hands are tied because a guy is mouthing off backstage and refusing to do what he's told to improve in the ring, you should probably look at the guy who's getting released.

Four years ago I would've guessed MVP and Kennedy would be main eventing Wrestlemania against each other...and now they're both gone. Crazy.

[PeterHilton]

For those who didn't see the actual tweet, MVP said he's "it's time to go international." Sounds like Japan. I know blaming creative is the easy(aka lazy and not completely accurate) thing to do, but when the creative's hands are tied because a guy is mouthing off backstage and refusing to do what he's told to improve in the ring, you should probably look at the guy who's getting released.

Four years ago I would've guessed MVP and Kennedy would be main eventing Wrestlemania against each other...and now they're both gone. Crazy.

I do agree with all of this; his attitude was poor.

[LoNdOn]

On the topic of MVP, I think it is a shame that he has gone personally. There was a lot of missed potential there.

On a different topic, I can honestly see Kaitlyn becoming the next Trish Stratus. Remember, Trish was really not that great to begin with (both in ring and on the mic) and I think Kaitlyn is improving at quite a decent rate.

[PeterHilton]

On the topic of MVP, I think it is a shame that he has gone personally. There was a lot of missed potential there.



Yeah..not to beat this to death..but again I'm watching Lebron going back to Cleveland and I can't help but think the WWE missed the boat with MVP

His gimmick was 'the modern athlete' and he played it well. Well 'the modern athlete' works effectively as a heel as well as a face and this past Summer Lebron's leaving Cleveland and his Decision special was one of THE hottest topics of conversation ...not in sports but in all the news.

How easy would it have been to do a parody where MVP turns heel by announcing his DECISION to go to RAW in a sit down interview with Josh Matthews or something?

He had one of the few modern, relevant-to-pop-culture gimmicks in the company.If you can't figure out to write for him, I seriously question your talent as a writer.

[Bigpapa42]

I think you've giving the WWE a bit too much credit on being current, Peter. I expect they may indeed run that exact type of storyline to play off of LeBron stuff... but they'll do it in 3-5 years... :-)

You are absolutely correct, though. It would've worked and he would have been the ideal choice for it. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the writers pitched it and Vince poo-poo'd the idea. By most reports, Vince lives in a bubble world and its hard to know just how much he would know about a situation like LeBron "taking his talents to South Beach".

[Hitman23]

World Wrestling Entertainment has come to terms on the release of WWE Superstar MVP as of December 2, 2010. WWE wishes MVP the best in all future endeavors

[Moe Hunter]

World Wrestling Entertainment has come to terms on the release of WWE Superstar MVP as of December 2, 2010. WWE wishes MVP the best in all future endeavors

What?! When did this happen?


Oh wait, the past whole page or two was talking exclusively about this.

[alden]

I will always remember when he was a tag champion with hardy.

Half man half amazing half world tag team champion.

Taz: Isen't that 150%?

He was good in my opinion. His feud with hardy was actuly entertaining to me. All the diffrent sport's they played.

[Johnny Fenoli]

What?! When did this happen?


Oh wait, the past whole page or two was talking exclusively about this.

yeah, but it wasn't bolded...

[SaySo]

We want MVP chants? It saved Daniel Bryan in the Summer.

[Stennick]

What?! When did this happen?


Oh wait, the past whole page or two was talking exclusively about this.

Took the words out of my mouth

[Self]

I too thought MVP had potential. He had an interesting outfit. A modern, relevant gimmick. Ring work was fine per WWE standards. The babyface turn and move to RAW killed him dead, and the shine was off the apple after that. He needed a new twist to keep him fresh, and WWE couldn't be arsed. Shame.

[ampulator]

I will always remember when he was a tag champion with hardy.

Half man half amazing half world tag team champion.

Taz: Isen't that 150%?

He was good in my opinion. His feud with hardy was actuly entertaining to me. All the diffrent sport's they played.
Manbearpig?

[jbergey_2005]

Whats going on with the WWE Championship? Why do I watch a recorded RAW for the first time in 6 months and see a Miz vs The King WWE Championship match in which I honestly thought the King was going to win? Im not even sure if what I was watching was true.

A bunch of guys hurt or doesnt the WWE care about their belt prestige again?

[Hyde Hill]

They care just as much as normal, they are just positioning Miz as a weak champion atm. Due to the fact he won via MITB after Orton was attacked pre match and was injured during match against Barrett that he won.

[Woodsmeister]

Whats going on with the WWE Championship? Why do I watch a recorded RAW for the first time in 6 months and see a Miz vs The King WWE Championship match in which I honestly thought the King was going to win? Im not even sure if what I was watching was true.

A bunch of guys hurt or doesnt the WWE care about their belt prestige again?

The fact they had you believing The King could win is justice to the match and to the performers in there. On paper if you could bet on wrestling im sure the odds and betting would be very in favour in The Miz winning so the fact they had you doubting it is testiment to the match. And although King did not do much he did enough to make it entertaining.

[Basmat01]

that match reminds me of the WWE Undisputed Championship Ladder match between Undertaker and Jeff Hardy and the WWE title match between HHH and Maven when Chris Benoit and that were doing everything in there power to help Maven win. but they were so close but yet so far lol

And I dont see how it was making the Miz look like a weak champion its only been a week lol

[LoNdOn]

that match reminds me of the WWE Undisputed Championship Ladder match between Undertaker and Jeff Hardy and the WWE title match between HHH and Maven when Chris Benoit and that were doing everything in there power to help Maven win. but they were so close but yet so far lol

And I dont see how it was making the Miz look like a weak champion its only been a week lol

I certainly don't think it did the Miz any favours. It took three men to stop King from winning that match. A clean win over a current roster member would have been far more beneficial in my opinion.

[juggaloninjalee]

I liked Miz vs King in a TLC match. Wish MVP didnt get released. I like him.

[crownsy]

I certainly don't think it did the Miz any favours. It took three men to stop King from winning that match. A clean win over a current roster member would have been far more beneficial in my opinion.

Thats not the point of his gimmick though. Not every champion needs to be booked to win clean and strong, especially not a smaller, cowardly heel.

Also miz said in an ESPN interview that he is going to be pushed as the cowardly heel champion who is vulnerable every week.

It's actually kind of a good move, he's good enough on the mic to make the crowd and home audience loath him every week and tune in to see if someone can beat him and get frustrated when he cheats to hold onto the title.

I know we all love to bash WWE creative, and most of the time it's deserved, but this actually isn't a bad gimmick and draw, it's why its been done with good talkers who are undersized since the beginning of time. Ric Flair very early in his career comes to mind.

Note: not comparing Miz and Flair in any way except that this was pretty much young flairs gimmick

1. show up and piss the crowd off at the event
2. go up against a much more physically imposing/ over guy
3. be "the dirtiest player in the game" and retain by hook or by crook
4. Profit :D

[Tha Black Phenom]

I certainly don't think it did the Miz any favours. It took three men to stop King from winning that match. A clean win over a current roster member would have been far more beneficial in my opinion.

Beneficial in what way? Maybe they don't feel like building his credibility that way. Maybe they're just going for that weak opportunistic champion route like with most heels. In which case... there's no problem. In vintage fashion, he walked away with the belt in cheap fashion after a suspenseful match.

[Basmat01]

I certainly don't think it did the Miz any favours. It took three men to stop King from winning that match. A clean win over a current roster member would have been far more beneficial in my opinion.

It might of been WWEs way of saying thanks to Jerry Lawler. It might of been the best match his had in years lol

[Hashasheen]

It might of been WWEs way of saying thanks to Jerry Lawler. It might of been the best match his had in years lol

Despite that, there were a few obvious spots during the match. A suplex that was telegraphed ahead of time with Lawler tapping the Miz, Miz nudging Lawler to turn on his stomach for when he went for the chair shots, etc...

Still, I see Lawler as a guy who really did deserve a World Championship run of his own back in his prime.

[alden]

It was the guy's birthday. They gave the old man one last moment in the main event. O and they kept saying "he never had a world title match". That is actuly not true. When heart won his first title jerry had a few title matches against him. I believe the same with disel when he was champion the first time. I am pretty sure that he had several title shots just not in the last 13 years.

[LoNdOn]

Beneficial in what way? Maybe they don't feel like building his credibility that way. Maybe they're just going for that weak opportunistic champion route like with most heels. In which case... there's no problem. In vintage fashion, he walked away with the belt in cheap fashion after a suspenseful match.

I'm just saying that I would much rather have seen him get a win over someone who was relevant. That's just my personal preferance.

I feel that a win over someone like a John Morrison would have given him some credability and legitimise him in a way. Now while I accept that there are other ways to have him retain his title, I would have liked to see them cement him as a main eventer by having him start his reign with a bang.

Had he had to defend against a current roster member and then used underhanded tactics to get the win, that would have been fine. Being put in a match against Jerry Lalwer and being made to look weak I don't think helped.

Look cowardly against the tough guys, not the 50+ year old commentators.

[PeterHilton]

It was the guy's birthday. They gave the old man one last moment in the main event. O and they kept saying "he never had a world title match". That is actuly not true. When heart won his first title jerry had a few title matches against him. I believe the same with disel when he was champion the first time. I am pretty sure that he had several title shots just not in the last 13 years.

Let's not forget he also held the AWA world title and competed against Ric Flair a couple times during that period.

[SaySo]

Isn't Miz doing what LeBron James is accused of doing when he joined the Heat by taking the easy way out - "Needing A-Ri and Cole to win the match" last Monday and "Nexus beating down Orton" before cashing in his MITB?

[Johnny Fenoli]

Does anyone, or has anyone, have a subscription to WWEClassics.com?

I was thinking about signing up, but wanted a couple of reviews first....

[juggaloninjalee]

Isn't Miz doing what LeBron James is accused of doing when he joined the Heat by taking the easy way out - "Needing A-Ri and Cole to win the match" last Monday and "Nexus beating down Orton" before cashing in his MITB?

No because A-Ri is his Verajau while Michael Cole is his old Larry Hughes. They came to the Miz. Miz didn't go to them. Plus Miz hasn't destroyed the pride of his home state... OHIO (hate that state)

[Bigpapa42]

Does anyone, or has anyone, have a subscription to WWEClassics.com?

I was thinking about signing up, but wanted a couple of reviews first....

I've had it for about six months and I must say that its well worth the $10 per month. The content is typically okay to good rather than amazing, but almost all of it is watchable. I particularly enjoy the old school WWF shows, the territorial TV episodes, and the Monday Night Wars (full episodes of Raw & Nitro FTW).

I find value in it personally because I will watch almost all of it, which is probably a couple dozen hours of stuff per month. That easily makes it worth the $10 per month. But if you are fairly selectective on what you want to watch or some of the stuff they feature doesn't really appeal to you, the value might not be there as much.

[Stennick]

I think people are too used to the Sheamus, Randy Orton, Triple H heel world champions where they are dominant in the ring and out.

You guys that are complaining about Miz looking bad against Lawler aren't thinking from the right point of view.

You guys are saying Lawler is a sixty year old man The Miz shouldn't have nearly lost to a sixty year old man.

From a FANS perspective its classic story telling. Hell didn't they do this with Bret last year in Minnesota? The Old Gun Slinger coming back for a shot at one last championship before he leaves. Did it make the other QB's look silly when 40 year old Bret was out playing them? Of course not because its sports and sometimes in sports we rise up above what we're capable of in order to win a championship.

The WWE hyped up Lawler's legendary career, they had the backstage stuff with him, the fans already like him on commentary, he's been around forever and I bet he's been on more RAW's than anybody else.

They didn't see it as Miz getting kicked around by an old man, they saw it as Miz screwing a fan favorite out of his life long dream.

What about Ric Flair? Did anybody complain that he nearly beat Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania? Ric was nearly in his sixities at that time.

Anyway I like The Miz because its a different champion. How long has it been since we had a by hook or by crook champion? I'm sick of the dominant, champions.

On a side note Alex Riley is getting really good on the mic pretty quick. He's clearly comfortable in his role.

[lazorbeak]

Anyway I like The Miz because its a different champion. How long has it been since we had a by hook or by crook champion? I'm sick of the dominant, champions.

On a side note Alex Riley is getting really good on the mic pretty quick. He's clearly comfortable in his role.

It was on a different brand, but Edge was always built up to be better at head-games and exploiting situations than he was in the ring. His whole feud with the Undertaker was basically him dodging Taker, sacrificing his friends and his wife if it got him out of his comeuppance.

[PeterHilton]

I think people are too used to the Sheamus, Randy Orton, Triple H heel world champions where they are dominant in the ring and out.

You guys that are complaining about Miz looking bad against Lawler aren't thinking from the right point of view.

You guys are saying Lawler is a sixty year old man The Miz shouldn't have nearly lost to a sixty year old man.

From a FANS perspective its classic story telling. Hell didn't they do this with Bret last year in Minnesota? The Old Gun Slinger coming back for a shot at one last championship before he leaves. Did it make the other QB's look silly when 40 year old Bret was out playing them? Of course not because its sports and sometimes in sports we rise up above what we're capable of in order to win a championship.

The WWE hyped up Lawler's legendary career, they had the backstage stuff with him, the fans already like him on commentary, he's been around forever and I bet he's been on more RAW's than anybody else.

They didn't see it as Miz getting kicked around by an old man, they saw it as Miz screwing a fan favorite out of his life long dream.

What about Ric Flair? Did anybody complain that he nearly beat Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania? Ric was nearly in his sixities at that time.

Anyway I like The Miz because its a different champion. How long has it been since we had a by hook or by crook champion? I'm sick of the dominant, champions.

On a side note Alex Riley is getting really good on the mic pretty quick. He's clearly comfortable in his role.

Totally agree with this

Still, I see Lawler as a guy who really did deserve a World Championship run of his own back in his prime.

Just saw this and all i can say is : Why?

Lawler was a junk wrestler. He booked his own territory and -SURPRISE - stuck himself at the top for year and years and YEARS past the time anyone cared and basically killed off his own territory. And then he stuck his son at the top of the card, even when it was obvious he wasn't over with the fans.

He insulted the 'new generation of stars' repeatedly and specifically ECW despite the fact Memphis was generally garbage wrestling and crappy joke gimmicks (seriously, wrestlecrap.com is absolutely loaded with entries from Memphis). He called out guys like Taz for being too small when Lawler himself was *maybe* 5'8" -5'9"

If you take out the Andy Kaufman stuff, Jerry Lawler didn't do one significant thing in his entire wrestling career outside of the territory he ran. The only reason he's famous now is for acting like a perverted 16 year old and fomr having the good sense to kiss Vince's a** for a job when Verne Gagne and Jerry Jarrett refused.

Take him out of Memphis and he's the most overrated "star" of the modern wrestling era.

[LoNdOn]

I think people are too used to the Sheamus, Randy Orton, Triple H heel world champions where they are dominant in the ring and out.

You guys that are complaining about Miz looking bad against Lawler aren't thinking from the right point of view.

You guys are saying Lawler is a sixty year old man The Miz shouldn't have nearly lost to a sixty year old man.

From a FANS perspective its classic story telling. Hell didn't they do this with Bret last year in Minnesota? The Old Gun Slinger coming back for a shot at one last championship before he leaves. Did it make the other QB's look silly when 40 year old Bret was out playing them? Of course not because its sports and sometimes in sports we rise up above what we're capable of in order to win a championship.

The WWE hyped up Lawler's legendary career, they had the backstage stuff with him, the fans already like him on commentary, he's been around forever and I bet he's been on more RAW's than anybody else.

They didn't see it as Miz getting kicked around by an old man, they saw it as Miz screwing a fan favorite out of his life long dream.

What about Ric Flair? Did anybody complain that he nearly beat Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania? Ric was nearly in his sixities at that time.

Anyway I like The Miz because its a different champion. How long has it been since we had a by hook or by crook champion? I'm sick of the dominant, champions.

On a side note Alex Riley is getting really good on the mic pretty quick. He's clearly comfortable in his role.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I fully understand what they were doing. It just wasn't to my taste. I couldn't have been happier when Miz won the title, not only because he is fresh but also because I can't stand Randy Orton matches (we get it already, your mental; now stop flailing your limbs like a fish out of water you look ridiculous).

[Stennick]

Just saw this and all i can say is : Why?

Lawler was a junk wrestler. He booked his own territory and -SURPRISE - stuck himself at the top for year and years and YEARS past the time anyone cared and basically killed off his own territory. And then he stuck his son at the top of the card, even when it was obvious he wasn't over with the fans.

He insulted the 'new generation of stars' repeatedly and specifically ECW despite the fact Memphis was generally garbage wrestling and crappy joke gimmicks (seriously, wrestlecrap.com is absolutely loaded with entries from Memphis). He called out guys like Taz for being too small when Lawler himself was *maybe* 5'8" -5'9"

If you take out the Andy Kaufman stuff, Jerry Lawler didn't do one significant thing in his entire wrestling career outside of the territory he ran. The only reason he's famous now is for acting like a perverted 16 year old and fomr having the good sense to kiss Vince's a** for a job when Verne Gagne and Jerry Jarrett refused.

Take him out of Memphis and he's the most overrated "star" of the modern wrestling era.

I agree completely Lawler might be the most overrated "star" of the territory days. You know how when you're going on a blind date and you ask your buddy what the girl looks like? When he says she's got a great personality what does that tell you? She's ugly!

Same thing with Lawler. When the best thing I hear about the guy is that he throws "the best punch in the business" thats up there with Holly having "the best dropkick in the business".

Jerry hasn't even been entertaining in the booth in maybe ten years.

[jbergey_2005]

The fact they had you believing The King could win is justice to the match and to the performers in there. On paper if you could bet on wrestling im sure the odds and betting would be very in favour in The Miz winning so the fact they had you doubting it is testiment to the match. And although King did not do much he did enough to make it entertaining.

I thought the way the match was being hyped it was going to end up in favor of Jerry.

Miz talking about how he was going to have the longest title reign in history. Michael Cole repeatedly saying the King had no chance. The fact that is was the Kings birthday.

[jbergey_2005]

I think people are too used to the Sheamus, Randy Orton, Triple H heel world champions where they are dominant in the ring and out.

You guys that are complaining about Miz looking bad against Lawler aren't thinking from the right point of view.

You guys are saying Lawler is a sixty year old man The Miz shouldn't have nearly lost to a sixty year old man.

From a FANS perspective its classic story telling. Hell didn't they do this with Bret last year in Minnesota? The Old Gun Slinger coming back for a shot at one last championship before he leaves. Did it make the other QB's look silly when 40 year old Bret was out playing them? Of course not because its sports and sometimes in sports we rise up above what we're capable of in order to win a championship.

The WWE hyped up Lawler's legendary career, they had the backstage stuff with him, the fans already like him on commentary, he's been around forever and I bet he's been on more RAW's than anybody else.

They didn't see it as Miz getting kicked around by an old man, they saw it as Miz screwing a fan favorite out of his life long dream.

What about Ric Flair? Did anybody complain that he nearly beat Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania? Ric was nearly in his sixities at that time.

Anyway I like The Miz because its a different champion. How long has it been since we had a by hook or by crook champion? I'm sick of the dominant, champions.

On a side note Alex Riley is getting really good on the mic pretty quick. He's clearly comfortable in his role.

Well Brett Favre or Ric Flair hadnt been retired for almost 20 years when they came back. I dont feel the comparison is close. Ive seen the King wrestle in a random pay per view here and there over the past 10 years and he usually looked just terrible NOW they are booking that same person to look like he can beat the current WWE champion. Makes no sense to me.

I will never understand why people like weak champions. The last thing I want if Im buying a PPV is a show headlined by someone that needs 4 run-ins to keep his title every match.

IMO it makes the belt a complete joke. I realize its not suppose to be a "real" sport but Id like it much more if they'd tried to keep it in the general ballpark of a "real" sport.

Its an idea Ive been tossing around for a TEW dynasty. Booking a fed as a real sport instead of a soap opera with multiple run ins and over the top storylines.

[Stennick]

People like weak champions because people pay to see weak champions lose.

Again with sports there have been 9-7 teams reach the Super Bowl, my own St. Louis Cardinals went and won the World Series with less than ninety wins the lowest amount in the history of baseball.

What makes teams like that interesting is two things. One we have "mircale" runs in sports think George Mason teams or guys that go on an incredible run even when their seemingly matched up against more talented opponents. Thats how you book a "weak" champion as a babyface they're called underogs. Mikey Whipwreck won the ECW Championship doing this exact gimmick and it was highly praised for the storytelling it gave off.

At the same time think Arn Anderson or Tully Blanchard with the T.V Title, think the Honky Tonk Man with the I.C title. Guys that look like their beat hands down yet somehow they pull out a way to hang onto the championship week after week. People will buy pay per view and come to shows just so that they can see the guy lose. Its the entire basis of pro wrestling.

Heel talks a bunch of junk, should be beaten but somehow hangs onto the championship. Babyface rises up against all odds only to get screwed over one more time right before he wins resulting in him continuing to hunt and stalk the heel until he finally wins the championship. People want to pay to see their hero win and they want to pay to see the lucky, ****y, S.O.B lose.

If this was ROH then yes I would say you have to be careful who you put the championship on but in the WWE they have proven time and time again that the fans will buy ANYONE as a champion. Remember how everyone said Sheamus wasn't ready for the title and it was too soon and blah blah blah. PPV buys didn't drop, ratings didn't fall, house show attendance stayed the same. I've said it a million times in here the WWE can put ANYONE as their World Champion and business will be the same.

I hate "he's not ready for the title" talk because its complete b.s. There are very very few times if ever that the WWE put the title on someone and it wound up being bad for business. If business is good its going to stay good no matter who has the title and if its bad its going to be bad no matter who has the title. The only thing that will change this is either good or bad storytelling for good or bad. If you have a good story for a guy thats "not ready" for the title the fans aren't going to care. I'm of the belief they could debut G Rilla (NXT guy) on Monday have him win the WWE Championship in his debut match and as long as there was an interesting story behind it you wouldn't see a single drop in any WWE business.

That being said if you're looking to see a title booked as "real sports championship" then why would you be looking at the WWE or TNA? Thats like saying I want ROH to be more like the WWE. If thats what I want then watch the WWE, if I want the WWE to be more like ROH then I should watch ROH. Just like in the C Verse there are options for everyone.

[jbergey_2005]

That being said if you're looking to see a title booked as "real sports championship" then why would you be looking at the WWE or TNA? Thats like saying I want ROH to be more like the WWE. If thats what I want then watch the WWE, if I want the WWE to be more like ROH then I should watch ROH. Just like in the C Verse there are options for everyone.

Id probably like ROH better but I have the slightest idea on how or where Id watch it. Its been talked about repeatedly but I cant even comment on it because Ive never seen it on TV.

[Stennick]

If you don't have HDnet then youtube. I'm sure there are entire episodes of their t.v show on you tube. If you look around you'll find some.

Their ok I go to their live shows when they come through town but I don't keep up with them since most of the guys I'm interested in aren't there anymore.

[Slagaholic]

KAAAAANE! KANE I'M HERE!!!

Gold.

[Hulkamaniac85]

Anyone else hate the Kane/Edge storyline so far, or is it just me who finds it to be utterly stupid and pointless?

[Stennick]

Considering I haven't found Edge interesting since about 2005 and his initial heel turn I'd agree with you.

[ampulator]

I think people are too used to the Sheamus, Randy Orton, Triple H heel world champions where they are dominant in the ring and out.

You guys that are complaining about Miz looking bad against Lawler aren't thinking from the right point of view.

You guys are saying Lawler is a sixty year old man The Miz shouldn't have nearly lost to a sixty year old man.

From a FANS perspective its classic story telling. Hell didn't they do this with Bret last year in Minnesota? The Old Gun Slinger coming back for a shot at one last championship before he leaves. Did it make the other QB's look silly when 40 year old Bret was out playing them? Of course not because its sports and sometimes in sports we rise up above what we're capable of in order to win a championship.

The WWE hyped up Lawler's legendary career, they had the backstage stuff with him, the fans already like him on commentary, he's been around forever and I bet he's been on more RAW's than anybody else.

They didn't see it as Miz getting kicked around by an old man, they saw it as Miz screwing a fan favorite out of his life long dream.

What about Ric Flair? Did anybody complain that he nearly beat Shawn Michaels at WrestleMania? Ric was nearly in his sixities at that time.

Anyway I like The Miz because its a different champion. How long has it been since we had a by hook or by crook champion? I'm sick of the dominant, champions.

On a side note Alex Riley is getting really good on the mic pretty quick. He's clearly comfortable in his role.
Riley's always been decent on the mic. He just has it. I think he's got decent in-ring skills, too, for that matter.

Miz 2.0?

[Stennick]

I picked the guy out as a star the first time I saw him on NXT he just has a certain look about him.

[Teh_Showtime]

I picked the guy out as a star the first time I saw him on NXT he just has a certain look about him.

agree

He just outclassed the rest of that season 2 group on the mic.

[ampulator]

I picked the guy out as a star the first time I saw him on NXT he just has a certain look about him.
I think he's actually pretty decent in the ring at this of his career when comparing a similar stage to the career of the Miz.

Personally, if the WWE doesn't screw this up, or he screws up, I think he's more of a breakout of star than Joe Hennig and "Husky Harris".

Joe Hennig is good in the ring, but WWE doesn't have the werewithal these days to use it in the way that will maximumally benefit themselves.

[Teh_Showtime]

If A-Ri has a work ethic similar to the Miz's he should be good to go.

I think he is just one of the young guys who "gets it" and he seems at ease at everything he does.

[LoNdOn]

agree

He just outclassed the rest of that season 2 group on the mic.

I have to say, I was pleasantly surprised with Kaval's mic work as well.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think he improved in that regard over the season of NXT.

I never really saw any of his promos before FCW though

[ampulator]

If A-Ri has a work ethic similar to the Miz's he should be good to go.

I think he is just one of the young guys who "gets it" and he seems at ease at everything he does.
Actually, A-Ri reminds me of Matt Striker... in the good ways.

[Teh_Showtime]

I miss Striker in the ring.

but he's already the top pbp guy in WWE now (although they want to say he's a color guy)

[TheKenwyne]

I miss Striker in the ring.

but he's already the top pbp guy in WWE now (although they want to say he's a color guy)

My problem with WWE announcing is that it's three colour guys and no play by play people. I really enjoyed the Stamford-Punk commentary on this week's Superstars because along with the banter, they actually called the moves. Oh, and Punk threw out a Pulp Fiction reference and insulted Stamford's wrestling know-how throughout. Brilliant... :')

[1234]

Dont know if its real or not (Soldier Ants profile or that the show is coming back)...but every vote for Soldier Ant to be on Tough Enough.

http://www.realitywanted.com/member/id/192576

[Stennick]

Honestly right now Miz needs to be in the ring against proven faces. Really Miz isn't long for the title and I would think he loses it in Feb. I thought they would do Barrett vs. Miz vs. Orton at the Royal Rumble letting Barrett beat an injured Orton for the title leaving Miz out of the equation. Then have Cena win the Rumble later that night moving towards Barrett and Cena at Wrestlemania and Orton vs. Miz at Wrestlemania since Miz would blame Orton being hurt on him losing his championship.

Then after the Barrett/Cena stuff is over you can then put Miz into a feud with Cena moving into Summerslam of that year with a "The title you won is MY championship" feud.

Of course it won't happen but I always thought that was the way to bring The Miz truly into the main event for good.

Oh by the way I also think it should be A-Ri vs. Danielson at WM for the United States Championship. Maybe have Bryan be one of the five or so finalists and have A-Ri cost him the Royal Rumble.

On that note I'm almost certain Trips returns at the Rumble himself.

[Teh_Showtime]

People returning at the match itself is getting stale and repetitive, so it will probably happen.

[Stennick]

I think its a great way to bring somebody back. Going by that theory having somebody come back and either attack a babyface or heel upon their return, or somebody walk out to open up RAW or Smackdown to return has been too much and is getting stale and repetitive.

Again sometimes I think the IWC gets a bit jaded. We know that Trips is coming back soon its being talked about everywhere. But the 12 year old kid sitting at the Royal Rumble thinks Sheamus ended this dudes career so imagine after "King" Sheamus enters and the next entrance you hear "Time to Play the Gaaaaame". The crowd would erupt, Sheamus would turn around with this "what the hell it can't be" look on his face. Maybe nobody comes out and Shemus laughs it off like thats what I thought only for Trips to come in through the crowd hell maybe in street clothes eliminating them both and brawling into the stands.

I think it'd be fun but what do I know I can't even decide on one certain way to mis spell Sheamus' name.

[Teh_Showtime]

There are only so many ways you can bring a guy back, but it seems like every year someone is going to come back at the Rumble which makes is less special than if it happens a different way. It could be done well, but that doesn't stop it from being repetitive.

[Stennick]

I just don't agree that repetitive equals bad. Something that happens once a year on the same show isn't repetitive IMO. How many years in a row did the babyface leave WM with the World Title? I'm thinking 14 from 2 through 15.

Repetitive is the nWo stopping a match from having a finish every match twice a week for three years. Thats repetitive.

Even outside of wrestling there are only so many ways you can play the guitar, there are only so many sitcom situational jokes that can be made, etc.

Wrestling is no different its not about whether or not your predictable or even repetitive if its good booking. If you're getting to the end of the feud and its clear to everyone the babyface should go over thats repetitive and predictable but it doesn't mean it shouldn't happen.

I would even say if it was always Triple H or if it was always Edge that came back at the Royal Rumble every year then yes. However I think thats part of the allure of the whole thing. "What superstar past or present will be a surprise entrant". In fact I think they should hype the surprises more even going so far as to say 1. Mark Henry, 2. Justin Gabrield.....12. ? etc. that way fans can say "oh man I can't wait to see who number 12 is.

[djthefunkchris]

There are only so many ways you can bring a guy back, but it seems like every year someone is going to come back at the Rumble which makes is less special than if it happens a different way. It could be done well, but that doesn't stop it from being repetitive.

In that one respect though, I think it could be a pretty positive thing... "Wonder who's coming back at the rumble this year?" It might make people want to order it every year if something "special" will always occur....

Will it be Jericho? Will it be HHH? Could HBK come out of retirement?

It could secure the Rumble as being something special every year if this is what is always expected.

I really don't like repeating things over and over, but if I can make out a positive reason for doing something, I figure the powers that be thought of that long before I did, which makes it easier to appreciate.

[Teh_Showtime]

I have been part of that curious crowd since it is almost a given that someone comes back every year.

It will probably never get old because every Rumble is different in its own ways.

I just think if a memorable return is to happen, it should be done in a fashion that allows the crowd to focus on it more. Be it after the Rumble or while there is only one guy in the ring.

[crownsy]

Captain Charisma recently tweeted that his rehab is ahead of schedule and that he should be "ready to rumble"

I kinda assume it's him or Y2J...dont think they will keep trips away much longer, certainly not till RR

[jwt13]

I just watched smackdown for the first time since it's moved to syfy and two things. I like the Kane edge storyline and Rosa mendez is a sarita copy

[Stennick]

Captain Charisma recently tweeted that his rehab is ahead of schedule and that he should be "ready to rumble"

I kinda assume it's him or Y2J...dont think they will keep trips away much longer, certainly not till RR

You don't think Trips would stay out for a month? The Royal Rumble is in like five weeks I could totally see them keeping him out that long. December is sort of a throwaway pay per view for them usually.

I always liked Starrcade being at the end of the year, Christmas, then Starrcade then the New Year felt like something special with it being during the holidays.

[The Informant]

Starrcade was always hyped as their Wrestlemania but they never presented it that way. Exactly how many times did Starrcade have the biggest match of the year or the biggest storyline of the year? Usually it was just filled with gimmicks like the triangle match and the tag team crap, etc.

[jwt13]

Starrcade was always hyped as their Wrestlemania but they never presented it that way. Exactly how many times did Starrcade have the biggest match of the year or the biggest storyline of the year? Usually it was just filled with gimmicks like the triangle match and the tag team crap, etc.

Sting/Hogan 97 nuff said

[The Informant]

Koloff vs. Flair, Garvin vs. Flair, two Battlebowls, Hogan vs. Piper without the title on the line.

Nuff Said

[PoisonedSuperman]

battlebowls were awesome!

[The Informant]

Not biggest show of the year main event awesome.

[Candyman]

Sting/Hogan 97 nuff said

Did you really just post this? One match = every main event was great and it was their Wrestlemania?

[SaySo]

Brutus Beefcake and Bam Bam Bigelow got something in common then (e.g. Starrcade 94 or 95 and WM 11)

[TakerNGN74]

Just remember that in 1994 at Starcade which was supposed to be WCW's Version of Wrestlemania the main event was Hulk Hogan vs. The Butcher for the World Title it can't get any more epic than that. Just kidding that match should have never happened at least not at a Starcade.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Oh look, Cena turned the Nexus against Barrett. How surprising.

[March]

The Cena/Nexus storyline.. so disappointing..

[angeldelayette]

Starrcade was always hyped as their Wrestlemania but they never presented it that way. Exactly how many times did Starrcade have the biggest match of the year or the biggest storyline of the year? Usually it was just filled with gimmicks like the triangle match and the tag team crap, etc.

Ric Flair/Harley Race at the first Starrcade.
Ricky Steamboat and Jay Youngblood/Briscos at first Starrcade.
Roddy Piper/Greg Valentine in a Dog Collar match at the first Starrcade.
Ric Flair/Dusty Rhodes at the next two Starrcades.
The Ric Flair/Nikita Koloff match was originally scheduled to be Ric Flair/Magnum T.A. until Magnum got injured in the car accident.
Midnight Express vs. Original Midnight Express in 1988.

Need I go on?

[Stennick]

Ric Flair/Harley Race at the first Starrcade.
Ricky Steamboat and Jay Youngblood/Briscos at first Starrcade.
Roddy Piper/Greg Valentine in a Dog Collar match at the first Starrcade.
Ric Flair/Dusty Rhodes at the next two Starrcades.
The Ric Flair/Nikita Koloff match was originally scheduled to be Ric Flair/Magnum T.A. until Magnum got injured in the car accident.
Midnight Express vs. Original Midnight Express in 1988.

Need I go on?

You named off three matches from ONE Starrcade. You mentioned matches from four different Starrcades when there was how many?

You still didn't justify the BattleBowls he mentioned which I agree were awful and so what if Magnum got hurt there were a hundred baby faces gunning for Ric Flair and the Horsemen they could have used. If memory serves the fans actually cheer for Flair which was not the point.

Starrcade is looked upon with fond memories but most years it was pretty dreadful. Wasn't it 1996 or 97 the heels won every match but the main event?

[Hitman23]

IMO Starrcade was at an early disadvantage with the WWF having every huge star except for Flair,Rhode,Sting, and Race I enjoyed Starrcade sometimes more than wrestlemania wasn't there a mania headlined by a Piper/Mr. T boxing match?

[angeldelayette]

You named off three matches from ONE Starrcade. You mentioned matches from four different Starrcades when there was how many?

You still didn't justify the BattleBowls he mentioned which I agree were awful and so what if Magnum got hurt there were a hundred baby faces gunning for Ric Flair and the Horsemen they could have used. If memory serves the fans actually cheer for Flair which was not the point.

Starrcade is looked upon with fond memories but most years it was pretty dreadful. Wasn't it 1996 or 97 the heels won every match but the main event?

The Battlebowls were a creation of Dusty Rhodes and that particular pay-per-view wasn't the best. But at the same time it served its purpose in setting up the Sting/Lex Luger match that wasn't ready to go on at that particular moment.

And since I didn't mention enough different Starrcades, let's go with:

Starrcade 1989 which had the Ironman Tournament and some great matches such as the Road Warriors against the Steiner Brothers and Ric Flair vs. Sting.

Starrcade 1992 had Battlebowl but it also had a great Sting/Big Van Vader match for the King of Cable Trophy and Shane Douglas and Ricky Steamboat defeating Barry Windham and Flyin' Brian in a pretty good match.

Starrcade 1993 goes without saying in my opinion. Ric Flair versus Big Van Vader for the WCW World title with Harley Race in Vader's corner and Ric Flair's career on the line in his "hometown." It also had a very good Steve Austin/Dustin Rhodes 2 out of 3 falls match and a very good Lord Steven Regal/Ricky Steamboat match that went to a draw.

Starrcade 1995 was the WCW/NJPW joint pay-per-view. There were some pretty decent matches there IIRC.

Back in the day I thought that the Piper/Hogan match at Starrcade 1996 was enjoyable but I enjoy the nostalgia. Also, for the ones who get upset because the title was not on the line, Piper's interviews state that he was just coming to beat Hogan. He stated that he didn't represent WCW or anything of the sort. So it makes sense that it was a non title match.

Starrcade 1998 was major because it gave Bill Goldberg his first loss in the ring. People can argue about who he lost to or how but it was pretty special regardless.

[Kovic]

I don't write here often and usually I write only in TEW related issues, but the bashing of the Nexus storyline is really getting on my nerves. In this storyline WWE has offered wrestling fans what they have asking for long time. They have made the Nexus big group of guys, but still not NWO-type of cluster****. The Nexus have not been overly dominant, but still able to dominate quite often with their superior numbers. That way they can stay dangerous but still vulnerable.
This storyline has now also lasted for over six months and looks like it will be lasting probably until Wrestlemania. It has been build quite slowly, but still it has not got boring with too much slowness. And lastly about the "how predictable"-thing. I would like to hear how would you solve these kinds of situations without being predictable. And even it looked like Nexus is turning on Barrett, I see the situation only as way to get Cena back to the roster and moving the storyline forward. It really doesn't mean The Nexus would break up next week.

And sorry if there is some language errors, I'm not a native english speaker.

[Hulkamaniac85]

Thanks for your post Kovic! I agree, I think the Nexus/Cena Storyline has actually been quite good. There's been moments when it hasn't lived up to the hype and hopes of people, but overall i would say its been pretty dang good. I've actually been really entertained by Raw lately overall. Not saying smackdown has been bad, i just haven't really gotten to watch much of Smackdown, And i would have to say its been pretty far off the predictability level of most wrestling storylines. I've made my predictions on things and have been totally off, as have others on these forums. Yeah, we all know in the end, Cena is gonna win out over Nexus (Good guy always beats the bad guy) and that's how it should be, and that's not the point of the storyline. The point of it is the journey, and for the most part the journey has been enjoyable. Anyways, that's my 2 cents on it. haha

PS: It is late and if i sound like im rambling, I probably am haha

[Linsolv]

Not to sound like I'm jumping on the bandwagon, but I have to make a similar point. First, Nexus hasn't been THAT predictable, but there's only so many ways it can go. Secondly, when you try to go straight for the jugular on "unpredictability," you'll find it takes about 3 shows to reach the limits of making any sense with what you're doing.

Then, as my time in the TNA thread told me back when Hogan/Bischoff took over, the fans start to get mad about your storylines being non-sequiter, confused, and chaotic. I'd say that there have been many times WWE was TOO predictable with Cena, like his I Quit match with Orton, where I was watching the match thinking they couldn't POSSIBLY be so predictable as to just have Cena win all I Quit matches and as usual Super Cena beat Orton after Orton beat on Cena for 45 minutes, and then Cena gets one submission hold on, once. But it's not the case here, IMO.

[PeterHilton]

I don't write here often and usually I write only in TEW related issues, but the bashing of the Nexus storyline is really getting on my nerves. In this storyline WWE has offered wrestling fans what they have asking for long time. They have made the Nexus big group of guys, but still not NWO-type of cluster****. The Nexus have not been overly dominant, but still able to dominate quite often with their superior numbers. That way they can stay dangerous but still vulnerable.
This storyline has now also lasted for over six months and looks like it will be lasting probably until Wrestlemania. It has been build quite slowly, but still it has not got boring with too much slowness. And lastly about the "how predictable"-thing. I would like to hear how would you solve these kinds of situations without being predictable. And even it looked like Nexus is turning on Barrett, I see the situation only as way to get Cena back to the roster and moving the storyline forward. It really doesn't mean The Nexus would break up next week.

And sorry if there is some language errors, I'm not a native english speaker.

Thanks for your post Kovic! I agree, I think the Nexus/Cena Storyline has actually been quite good. There's been moments when it hasn't lived up to the hype and hopes of people, but overall i would say its been pretty dang good. I've actually been really entertained by Raw lately overall. Not saying smackdown has been bad, i just haven't really gotten to watch much of Smackdown, And i would have to say its been pretty far off the predictability level of most wrestling storylines. I've made my predictions on things and have been totally off, as have others on these forums. Yeah, we all know in the end, Cena is gonna win out over Nexus (Good guy always beats the bad guy) and that's how it should be, and that's not the point of the storyline. The point of it is the journey, and for the most part the journey has been enjoyable. Anyways, that's my 2 cents on it. haha

PS: It is late and if i sound like im rambling, I probably am haha

Not to sound like I'm jumping on the bandwagon, but I have to make a similar point. First, Nexus hasn't been THAT predictable, but there's only so many ways it can go. Secondly, when you try to go straight for the jugular on "unpredictability," you'll find it takes about 3 shows to reach the limits of making any sense with what you're doing.

Then, as my time in the TNA thread told me back when Hogan/Bischoff took over, the fans start to get mad about your storylines being non-sequiter, confused, and chaotic. I'd say that there have been many times WWE was TOO predictable with Cena, like his I Quit match with Orton, where I was watching the match thinking they couldn't POSSIBLY be so predictable as to just have Cena win all I Quit matches and as usual Super Cena beat Orton after Orton beat on Cena for 45 minutes, and then Cena gets one submission hold on, once. But it's not the case here, IMO.

I don't think the 'predictable' thing would be my primary complaint. I' say it just hasn't been written or paced all that well.

Firstly, I'd disagree that it hasn't been 'boring with its slowness.' The storyline has been even more repetitive imo than even the Cena/Orton feud. Just the same segment...over and over and OVER and six months into it the only person who's benefited has been Wade Barrett since everyone else in the nexus just seems to stand around in the background.

Secondly, there haven't been any real surprises. People say retarded things like "well everything is predictable because all ending have been tried before" which is technically true but a complete cop-out.

When the Nexus formed, that was surprising. When they turned as a group, that was surprising. it's not that we've never seen it before, it's that it was done in an unexpected moment. Since then, at every major turning point of the story, they've done the most obviously predictable and uninsteresting thing. Does that make it bad? No. But it does make it a drag to watch.

Cena allowed himself to be fired in order to preserve his 'goody two shoes' way of existence. Was it predictable? Yes. But if he'd turned heel or simply made the three count to save his job would that have been predictable as well? Yes, absolutely

But which was the more interesting? Cena as a heel which he hast done for most of the decade or Cena doing the exact same thing he's done for the last 5 years?

Finally..and the best example is the most recent..the odd pacing. IMO they saved the 'Cena gets fired twist' when Cena gave that promo where he led the crowd in cheers against him. Great stuff. Great emotion. And then he just shows up on RAW the very next week??? Why? Why not have him off TV for a few weeks, with the Nexus members crowing about it and scoring wins over big names using heelish tactics? And then bring him back slowly..mysterious attacks in the backstage area, odd messages, subtlety...before he just waltzes in the ring and forces a situation where he fights for his WWE career?

Why drag your feet for six months and then blow your load all at once right at the very end, which only kills off all the dram you spent six months building?

Nexus was a great storyline at the beginning, but now it's just repetitive, dull, and overly obvious.

[Hive]

Finally..and the best example is the most recent..the odd pacing. IMO they saved the 'Cena gets fired twist' when Cena gave that promo where he led the crowd in cheers against him. Great stuff. Great emotion. And then he just shows up on RAW the very next week??? Why? Why not have him off TV for a few weeks, with the Nexus members crowing about it and scoring wins over big names using heelish tactics? And then bring him back slowly..mysterious attacks in the backstage area, odd messages, subtlety...before he just waltzes in the ring and forces a situation where he fights for his WWE career?

Had this happened during the 90's, they would have done this. But these days, there doesn't seem to be any patience in wrestling... it all has to happen with an insane pace. The fact that the Nexus storyline has even been around this long is a huge shocker to me. I would have expected Barrett to have both won and lost the title again months ago.

[March]

My beef is with Cena being fired, and then the repurcussions of that playing out terribly. Exactly as PeterHilton said, the emotional farewell speech... it was set up great there, and yet Cena goes nowhere, and they Nexus no chance of getting over at Cena's expense. At the least they could give them a few weeks to revel in Cena's fate... nope.. two weeks into it and they're already setting up Cena's return to WWE... when he never really left! Ugh.

[Candyman]

Finally..and the best example is the most recent..the odd pacing. IMO they saved the 'Cena gets fired twist' when Cena gave that promo where he led the crowd in cheers against him. Great stuff. Great emotion. And then he just shows up on RAW the very next week??? Why? Why not have him off TV for a few weeks, with the Nexus members crowing about it and scoring wins over big names using heelish tactics? And then bring him back slowly..mysterious attacks in the backstage area, odd messages, subtlety...before he just waltzes in the ring and forces a situation where he fights for his WWE career?


Because taking him off TV for even one week would be completely idiotic. The #1 star in the top storyline going...you DO NOT take him off TV, not for a second. The only thing I would've changed is not have Cena give his huge good bye speech when he wasn't really leaving at all. That was a great promo, don't get me wrong, but he didn't actually leave.

And without going into a huge rant, I just have to say that a huge pet peeve of mine is people criticizing storylines, talking about the things that should've been done differently, before they're even remotely close to finishing. Let's be honest here, they've done a great job with the Nexus storyline so far. They deserve the benefit of the doubt to let it play out and then make a judgement on it. I'm sure there's a reason Cena is getting rehired so soon, and you're going to feel pretty silly if it turns out what they planned is a lot better than what you suggested.

[ampulator]

PeterHilton, you and me are both must be exact opposites of each other. :p

I feel, for once, WWE is at least TRYING to make this work, at least, within their own limitations. There are simply some things they can't do, and that is have Cena having TOO much time off. I can understand that. At least this storyline isn't hacknyed or lazy like their usual work. They might be bringing back Cena too soon, but they have good reasons.

I actually find even what they are doing is obvious, and not exactly the most interesting... they are at least trying, which is a lot more than they have in past years. I mean, Cena-Orton or Cena-Batista several times... CONSECUTIVELY. Now that just was just lazy. They are actually building Cena/Barrett.

[PeterHilton]

Because taking him off TV for even one week would be completely idiotic. The #1 star in the top storyline going...you DO NOT take him off TV, not for a second. The only thing I would've changed is not have Cena give his huge good bye speech when he wasn't really leaving at all. That was a great promo, don't get me wrong, but he didn't actually leave.

Listen..I'm one of the biggest proponents on the board of doing what's best for business. I get that. But you said the same thing I did: why deliver that kind of promo if all you're going to do is reappear a week later?

And without going into a huge rant, I just have to say that a huge pet peeve of mine is people criticizing storylines, talking about the things that should've been done differently, before they're even remotely close to finishing. Let's be honest here, they've done a great job with the Nexus storyline so far. They deserve the benefit of the doubt to let it play out and then make a judgement on it. I'm sure there's a reason Cena is getting rehired so soon, and you're going to feel pretty silly if it turns out what they planned is a lot better than what you suggested.

I don't actually think they've done 'a great job' I think it's been really good -especially at first - with spots of really mediocre.

And it's episodic television with a storyline that's lasted six months or so...exactly how are we supposed to discuss it if it hasn't run it's course yet? Did it upset you that people complained about Lost during the third season?

[Hyde Hill]

If you can't not have him be on the show at least do it Sting style or like Hilton suggested slow escalation style. Nexus hasn't been bad but hasn't been great either. Also where was the period of Nexus trying to prevent the attacks and sometimes succeeding until Cena found a new way etc. It's like the writers went: "Damn Rumble and Mania and Trips return coming up better hurry this along". Some story parts where rushed or just skipped and others where dragged out.

Chris Kreski is turning in his grave.

[PeterHilton]

I feel, for once, WWE is at least TRYING to make this work, at least, within their own limitations. There are simply some things they can't do, and that is have Cena having TOO much time off. I can understand that. At least this storyline isn't hacknyed or lazy like their usual work. They might be bringing back Cena too soon, but they have good reasons.



He didn't get ANY time away. ANY.

For months one of the basic components of the storyline was "Cena has to do what he's ordered to do by Barrett or it will cost him his career" with the conflict being "what would Cena do if following Nexus meant he had to betray his own beliefs???"

Turns out..it really wasn't that big a deal. Because he just said "eff it" got himself fired and then kept on coming to the arena anyway with no real repercussions.

If that was going to be the case, it makes all those weeks of Cena worrying about his decision fairly pointless.