The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ampulator]

He didn't get ANY time away. ANY.

For months one of the basic components of the storyline was "Cena has to do what he's ordered to do by Barrett or it will cost him his career" with the conflict being "what would Cena do if following Nexus meant he had to betray his own beliefs???"

Turns out..it really wasn't that big a deal. Because he just said "eff it" got himself fired and then kept on coming to the arena anyway with no real repercussions.

If that was going to be the case, it makes all those weeks of Cena worrying about his decision fairly pointless.
I Know, I know. *Pats Peter Hilton on the back* This is on par with what WWE normally does. But hey, at least they tried to build this up. One step at a time, I guess? I'm trying to be positive here, for once. :p

[Bigpapa42]

He didn't get ANY time away. ANY.

For months one of the basic components of the storyline was "Cena has to do what he's ordered to do by Barrett or it will cost him his career" with the conflict being "what would Cena do if following Nexus meant he had to betray his own beliefs???"

Turns out..it really wasn't that big a deal. Because he just said "eff it" got himself fired and then kept on coming to the arena anyway with no real repercussions.

If that was going to be the case, it makes all those weeks of Cena worrying about his decision fairly pointless.

That's just it - the consequences do not at all fit the build-up. That alone makes it a let down. Even without Cena's great goodbye promo, which has subseqently turned out to be a load of crap (which you pretty much knew at the time anyway).

Its like if a babyface spent week after week trying to avoid a heel or heels that were out to tear him to pieces... and when they finally get him, the result is a light beatdown and nothing more, the whole thing feels like it was a waste. Unless its played for laughs, but this wasn't.

[ampulator]

That's just it - the consequences do not at all fit the build-up. That alone makes it a let down. Even without Cena's great goodbye promo, which has subseqently turned out to be a load of crap (which you pretty much knew at the time anyway).

Its like if a babyface spent week after week trying to avoid a heel or heels that were out to tear him to pieces... and when they finally get him, the result is a light beatdown and nothing more, the whole thing feels like it was a waste. Unless its played for laughs, but this wasn't.
I know how you feel. but at least they HAD a good build up this time. That's not even usually the case.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Because taking him off TV for even one week would be completely idiotic. The #1 star in the top storyline going...you DO NOT take him off TV, not for a second. The only thing I would've changed is not have Cena give his huge good bye speech when he wasn't really leaving at all. That was a great promo, don't get me wrong, but he didn't actually leave.

And without going into a huge rant, I just have to say that a huge pet peeve of mine is people criticizing storylines, talking about the things that should've been done differently, before they're even remotely close to finishing. Let's be honest here, they've done a great job with the Nexus storyline so far. They deserve the benefit of the doubt to let it play out and then make a judgement on it. I'm sure there's a reason Cena is getting rehired so soon, and you're going to feel pretty silly if it turns out what they planned is a lot better than what you suggested.

Except... Cena's been off loads of Raws. And yeah, they were for special circumstances, either injury or him filming a movie(or flipping a coin, ha), but I tell myself with all of that, one week... even one week wouldn't have hurt anybody. Some folks out there are suggesting he should've been off two months, or until the Rumble/Mania/whatevs but I don't ask for that much - it would've all just conveyed better if there was the actual factor and feeling of experiencing Cena's absence for a while where it would make sense MOST, and to really stick this storyline in... given that it already happens almost once a year.

I dunno, just my Achilles heel, but for what it's worth, still, good effort on their part.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Anyone watching NXT? Anyone have thoughts on if any of these guys have "IT"?

[Stennick]

Not A-Ri "it" but Im a G Rilla fan

[eayragt]

Odd how there was criticism that Nexus was buried when they lost they're first ppv 6 man tag match, and the same people are criticising the Nexus storyline for being too predictable. They seem to have forgotten the alleged burying, as some were to wrongly claim. Another unpredictable thing to add to the ever growing list of unpredictable things that have happened during the nexus storyline. Really, the only thing I'd have changed was what Cena said in his leaving speech, to give more indication that if was going to fight it. I would not have kept him off screen any longer as RAW is really short of top star names right now, recognisable to the very casual fan.

[lazorbeak]

Except... Cena's been off loads of Raws. And yeah, they were for special circumstances, either injury or him filming a movie(or flipping a coin, ha), but I tell myself with all of that, one week... even one week wouldn't have hurt anybody. Some folks out there are suggesting he should've been off two months, or until the Rumble/Mania/whatevs but I don't ask for that much - it would've all just conveyed better if there was the actual factor and feeling of experiencing Cena's absence for a while where it would make sense MOST, and to really stick this storyline in... given that it already happens almost once a year.

I dunno, just my Achilles heel, but for what it's worth, still, good effort on their part.

No you're completely right. Cena's farewell promo was so good that they could've gotten "we want Cena" chants every night for a month. The demand would become greater for the first month or two to the point that when Cena finally did reappear, the crowd would go ballistic. In the meantime, just have NXT continue to look strong: have Barrett beat R-Truth or somebody on the TLC PPV since he's John Cena's buddy.

If this is the feud they want to take into Wrestlemania (and let's face it, it should be, it's WWE's hottest angle of the year), they definitely could have shown more patience in stretching the thing out.

[Hashasheen]

Anyone watching NXT? Anyone have thoughts on if any of these guys have "IT"?

I had my hopes for Byron Saxton from the promo video since he reminded me of the black actor from Undisputed 2, but his actual character is just whimpy. :p

Johnny Curtis is my other hope, but he's just bland so far.

[sabataged]

This article is from Wrestlezone. I thought it was a pretty good read

WWE Needs a Main Event Equilibrium

The WWE has had nothing short of a horrible year for injuries and absentees to top stars. With the exception of John Cena and Kane, the list of big stars that have had a portion of the year off is incredibly long: Triple H, The Undertaker, Edge, Randy Orton, Rey Mysterio, Shawn Michaels, Batista, Chris Jericho and CM Punk. It’s hardly surprising that the current youth movement is in full swing – they’ve not had a choice.

Bringing Cena and Kane back into the equation, you are left with a thorough list of WWE’s main event talent coming into the year sans Sheamus. What’s worrying about that list is that more than half of their top talent had exposure before the turn of the millennium. And in the case of HHH, ‘Taker, Jericho and HBK – they were all top talent during the 1998-2002 period. That is to say, in the last 8 or so years, the WWE has only created a handful of main event talent.

So it’s hardly a surprise that 2010 has seen their hierarchy of talent come crashing down around them. Michaels and Batista (both in their forties) called time on their career, Jericho went on hiatus once again, and the injury prone Triple H and Undertaker both suffered hefty layoffs. Edge and Mysterio have managed to get through most of the year unscathed, but every injury they suffer now is taking huge chunks off the end of their time in the industry.

What was left was panic. The gauntlet had been laid down in last year when Irish debutant Sheamus went from ECW rookie to WWE champion inside six months. Wade Barrett too, despite not yet being champion, has had two title shots inside his first year in the company. They had no choice because of what went on in the years prior, and injuries to a majority of its big stars in the last twelve months has been a big reason why the WWE is in a relative low point in terms of popularity.

It’s been a very formulaic year. Realizing that it’s 10x as hard to rush a main event babyface that it is a heel, creative has been forced to push all of their fast-tracked youngsters as vulnerable heels. Sheamus, Barrett, Swagger, The Miz have all played identical roles in and around the title picture. This has meant that almost all of the remaining main event stars have been forced to play faces – Orton, Edge and Hunter all play naturally better heels than they do faces, but have been forced by injuries to be babyfaces. Only Chris Jericho and Batista (both who were heels in Wrestlemania’s main event matches) were consistently heels before they left.

WWE’s major problem is that neither route is healthy. Sitting on a large bunch of established stars constantly puts the same people into title matches – so nothing changes and things stagnate, as happened between 2004-2008. And rushing through a whole bunch of new stars solves that problem, but creates a new one in the sense that they all follow the same path. The vulnerable heel wins championship in fortunate fashion (see both Sheamus’ title victories, and Swagger and The Miz cashing in their Money in the Bank contracts) – then spending the following few months clinging to the title with dear life thanks to a diet of scrappy DQ victories (see Sheamus in either reign against John Cena and Randy Orton, and Jack Swagger vs The Big Show).

The only strange thing about the last year has been that both Sheamus and Swagger lost their titles in multi-way matches that are traditionally utilised to protect vulnerable heels (Sheamus’ two title losses were at Elimination chamber and in a 6-pack challenge at Night of Champions, Swagger lost his title to Rey Mysterio at Fatal-4-Way). The same heel champions creative didn’t want to see win clean, they didn’t want to see lose clean either. It’s an odd catch 22 in what has been an otherwise very formulaic year that is vindictive of the company’s current state. The champions they want to look vulnerable, they also don’t want to look too weak.

It won’t be like this forever, which is why it’s important that WWE fans keep the faith even when at the moment things really seem to be at a low point. Once WWE can strike a happy medium between the two extremes of the last ten years, where establish stars around the age of John Cena and Randy Orton rumble with rising talent, without the risk of exposing gaps in the roster, the WWE could really kick on in a way they haven’t in years. People complain that the likes of John Morrison and Kofi Kingston are being held back. In truth they’re just taking the natural path that baby faces have always taken, but look held back in the wake of rushed heel pushes.

It may take another 18 months to two years, but once the likes of Morrison and Kingston are established in the main event alongside the likes of The Miz, Sheamus, Barrett and Swagger, the WWE may be in a position of main event parity that they have been in since the late nineties. The lesson they must heed from recent years, is not to rest on the present, however hard it may seem to be.

[lazorbeak]

This article is from Wrestlezone. I thought it was a pretty good read

They make some good points, including some points that have been made here. I hate that they created a "new guard" of main eventers and basically sat on them until Batista called it a career and now they're left with only Orton and Cena while the other guy they "made" from the same era is off drawing far bigger buyrates in another medium. But even when it was Cena/Orton/Batista as the top 3 names in the company, WWE never really gave them the ball entirely, whether to please workrate smarks or who knows why, so we got 7 years of new guy vs. old guy, "old guy" being a guy who was main eventing before 2001. Now, the old guys are even older and the new guys don't have the experience of carrying big matches by themselves and WWE is suddenly running out of talent at the top.

But the article says something like "It’s been a very formulaic year," then provides no explanation of what that sentence means, since they're talking about too much youth movement at once. If anything, this year is a break from formula.

Further, the article's complaint has been a feature of wrestling since forever. Heels cheat. Ric Flair in his first title reign defended the title with DQ's and tainted finishes. When The Rock was champ for the first time, he was booked so that he couldn't beat an out-of-shape borderline handicapped man without tons of help. This:

The vulnerable heel wins championship in fortunate fashion (see both Sheamus’ title victories, and Swagger and The Miz cashing in their Money in the Bank contracts) – then spending the following few months clinging to the title with dear life thanks to a diet of scrappy DQ victories (see Sheamus in either reign against John Cena and Randy Orton, and Jack Swagger vs The Big Show)."

Is just how you book heels to make people dislike them. You don't dislike a guy who is just the best and never backs down and will kick anyone's ass: that guy sounds pretty bad-ass. It's why Triple H always got face pops even as a heel, and it's why guys like Lesnar or Cena or Orton were turned face by the crowd. But nobody wants to cheer a coward or a hypocrite or someone who doesn't "deserve" the belt.

Also for something that is published (if only on the web), the writing gets bad right here:

The same heel champions creative didn’t want to see win clean, they didn’t want to see lose clean either. It’s an odd catch 22 in what has been an otherwise very formulaic year that is vindictive of the company’s current state. The champions they want to look vulnerable, they also don’t want to look too weak.

That's not a Catch-22. It's not even close. Also, "vindictive" should probably be "indicative," as in "indicating." I realize that's nitpicky, but it makes the article look unprofessional to use the wrong term twice in one paragraph.

Also while I think Morrison is great and should be a world champion contender, other than being on Raw how is he any better off than he was a year ago when he was getting title shots at Jeff Hardy and looked like he was just shy of the main event? This feud with Sheamus is the most important thing he's done on Raw other than grow a beard. Isn't that pretty much the definition of stalled?

But while the article does notice what's going on, I think they're missing the big picture. Yes, WWE has pushed its new top guard as heels, because it is way easier to do that. Triple H, Rock, Kurt Angle, Jericho, Edge, Orton, and even the Undertaker were "undeserving heel champions" at some point. The difference is guys like Swagger have followed up their title losses with completely falling out of the title picture, making their wins look like a fluke, while Kurt Angle went from "cowardly heel champ" to "Steve Austin's goofy apprentice" to "#1 babyface in the company" in less than two years. Giving somebody like Sheamus two title runs, even if he's not booked as the greatest worker ever, makes the fans buy into him, so that when he does turn babyface, he will still be able to hang around the title picture, the same way Orton, Rock, etc., moved into being top babyfaces after being introduced as cowardly but athletic heels.

Does WWE need to make some changes? In a word, yes. They need to let go of the Attitude era. It's over. Nobody who was a fan then is going to come back now. It's time to pass the torch. If that means you go through some growing pains, well that's the price you have to pay. In the mid-90's, we went through the same thing with WWF finally realizing Hogan wasn't going to bring in fans from a decade earlier anymore, and going to the most talented workers on the roster for his replacement. It didn't work, and led to a couple of years of struggle, but it ended up launching the company back into national prominence when they let Steve Austin be himself. Do it again. Who knows, maybe R-Truth or Christian or somebody else under the radar will re-invent themselves and become the biggest deal in the sport. Stranger things have happened.

[crownsy]

Great article and a great post Laz.

This:

Is just how you book heels to make people dislike them. You don't dislike a guy who is just the best and never backs down and will kick anyone's ass: that guy sounds pretty bad-ass.

Being seen by more people would make it so much easier to explain why guys not looking like a world beater is not "burying" a guy.

[Hyde Hill]

Still there are differences between heels and how you book them and the level of cowardliness etc. I get the cowardly heel act for Miz and it works for him just thought Lawler was taking it a bit too far and early as now Miz doesn't look like a threat at all.

[crownsy]

Still there are differences between heels and how you book them and the level of cowardliness etc. I get the cowardly heel act for Miz and it works for him just thought Lawler was taking it a bit too far and early as now Miz doesn't look like a threat at all.

Sure he does, he wins. Ergo he's dangerous.



to qoute an awful movie

"it doesn't matter if you win by an inch or win by a mile. Winning's winning."

[lazorbeak]

Still there are differences between heels and how you book them and the level of cowardliness etc. I get the cowardly heel act for Miz and it works for him just thought Lawler was taking it a bit too far and early as now Miz doesn't look like a threat at all.

Why does he have to look like a "threat"? He's the WWE champion! He should be dodging contenders and doing anything he can to hold onto the belt; none of that requires being threatening. In fact, the longer he holds the belt and the more he avoids his comeuppance, the more the crowd will hate him and it will be that much more of a pay-off when someone finally takes the belt from him.

[PeterHilton]

Why does he have to look like a "threat"? He's the WWE champion! He should be dodging contenders and doing anything he can to hold onto the belt; none of that requires being threatening. In fact, the longer he holds the belt and the more he avoids his comeuppance, the more the crowd will hate him and it will be that much more of a pay-off when someone finally takes the belt from him.

I agree with this. There are certain heels that I don't really care for it when they are booked as weak or always needing to run away or get help to retain a title (I didn't really care for Sheamus in that role for instance) bt a lot of the time it works.

I mean..I don't think I EVER saw Honky Tonk Man beat someone clean unless it was on a Saturday morning against a total jobber.

And I am always shocked people forget how much time Ric Flair spent as 'the Dirtiest Player in the Game'...Barry Windham, Sting, Lex Luger, Dusty Rhodes all essentially made their names by almost beating Flair for a belt.

JCP did the same thing for years and got tons of success out of it: Face chases Flair, Flair cheats for months, Flair FINALLY loses belt, fans go wild, face, gets over, Flair wins belt back, rinse & repeat...

[Linsolv]

JCP did the same thing for years and got tons of success out of it: Face chases Flair, Flair cheats for months, Flair FINALLY loses belt, fans go wild, face, gets over, Flair wins belt back, rinse & repeat...

Come to think of it, isn't that exactly what IWC Darling RoH was doing with Austin Aries and Tyler Black in their feud earlier this year?

[b0shey]

total bullcrap, how could Cena win the Holy **** awards :eek:
Evan Bourne RKO was the true OMG moment of the year.

[PoisonedSuperman]

So why was Cena rehired?

[Hulkamaniac85]

Dang, that was really disappointing (Cena being rehired that way)

[b0shey]

OMG, Match of the year coming up :eek:

Alex Riley/David Arquette vs Randy Orton

[The Final Countdown]

Come to think of it, isn't that exactly what IWC Darling RoH was doing with Austin Aries and Tyler Black in their feud earlier this year?
Pretty much...well, aside from the fact that it didn't work as well for ROH as it did for Crockett. A good chunk of ROH's fanbase gave up on Tyler after Final Battle last year, to the point where his title win wasn't as big a moment as it should have been.

[b0shey]

Come On.... Michelle McTaker Diva of the year :mad:........ BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

OMG.... Cena won superstar of the year... what a complete shock

[The Two]

So, just to clarify, John Cena was "Fired" for a grand total of 3 weeks and appeared on TV every single one of them.
Well, that was a worthwhile and meaningful angle. :rolleyes:

[BHK1978]

Alex Riley/David Arquette vs Randy Orton

WCW has been dead for almost ten years now and Vince still has to get his cheap shots in at their expense. I guess you cannot expect anything less from a man who made a music video called Stand Back which was his warning to the other promoters.

So, just to clarify, John Cena was "Fired" for a grand total of 3 weeks and appeared on TV every single one of them.
Well, that was a worthwhile and meaningful angle. :rolleyes:

Honestly, I am surprised they kept him "fired" for that long.:D

[ChrisKid]

Superstar of the year :mad:
Holy **** moment of the year: :mad:
Despicible Me Moment of the year: :D

[dvdWarrior]

WCW has been dead for almost ten years now and Vince still has to get his cheap shots in at their expense. I guess you cannot expect anything less from a man who made a music video called Stand Back which was his warning to the other promoters.

I'm just glad I apparently wasn't the only one who felt that way when they seemed to go out of their way to mention that David Arquette was a former WCW champion.

[Hyde Hill]

I agree with this. There are certain heels that I don't really care for it when they are booked as weak or always needing to run away or get help to retain a title (I didn't really care for Sheamus in that role for instance) bt a lot of the time it works.

I mean..I don't think I EVER saw Honky Tonk Man beat someone clean unless it was on a Saturday morning against a total jobber.

And I am always shocked people forget how much time Ric Flair spent as 'the Dirtiest Player in the Game'...Barry Windham, Sting, Lex Luger, Dusty Rhodes all essentially made their names by almost beating Flair for a belt.

JCP did the same thing for years and got tons of success out of it: Face chases Flair, Flair cheats for months, Flair FINALLY loses belt, fans go wild, face, gets over, Flair wins belt back, rinse & repeat...

There is a difference here though. Flair did beat the midcarders and undercard workers and was not taken to the limit by them. He would then be taken to the limit by the Sting's etc and that would be an accomplishment.

Miz being taken to the limit in his first defence and needing two interferences is akin to Flair being taken to the limit by a WCW version of Barry Horrowitz/ Brooklyn Brawler in his first defence.

[PeterHilton]

There is a difference here though. Flair did beat the midcarders and undercard workers and was not taken to the limit by them. He would then be taken to the limit by the Sting's etc and that would be an accomplishment.

Miz being taken to the limit in his first defence and needing two interferences is akin to Flair being taken to the limit by a WCW version of Barry Horrowitz/ Brooklyn Brawler in his first defence.

I disagree. Because TV was different back then. They would actually allow Flair on TV against a true jobber which would never happen today.

Someone like the Brooklyn Brawler would come out in a comedy bit, but the final segment on a live edition of Raw? It would never happen. Miz beating a guy like Lawler (who's not a draw and would never headline a PPV) serves the same purpose (showing us what 'a cheater' The Miz is) without wasting a match against a headliner like Orton or Cena. It gets the character over and -hopefully - creates heat for The Miz because people are going t think the same thing you did: man what a cheap win I can't wait to see him get what he deserves.

You're picking nits.

[crownsy]

So why was Cena rehired?

It was stupid.

Barret Rehired him so he could take out Otunga in a match.

The only way that gets salvaged is if David "im pitiful as a professional wrestler" otunga is gone to FCW or from the company.

[crownsy]

There is a difference here though. Flair did beat the midcarders and undercard workers and was not taken to the limit by them. He would then be taken to the limit by the Sting's etc and that would be an accomplishment.

Miz being taken to the limit in his first defence and needing two interferences is akin to Flair being taken to the limit by a WCW version of Barry Horrowitz/ Brooklyn Brawler in his first defence.

Se i completely disagree there. They have always played lawler up as some sort of ex super wrestler (Despite reality on that) and as the stand in for the old school, they weren't going to job him to Miz and that was actually an ok match.

[juggaloninjalee]

Se i completely disagree there. They have always played lawler up as some sort of ex super wrestler (Despite reality on that) and as the stand in for the old school, they weren't going to job him to Miz and that was actually an ok match.

Lawler was a great wrestler in his time. He isn't Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, or Andre the Giant but he really was great.

[Kovic]

It was stupid.

Barret Rehired him so he could take out Otunga in a match.

The only way that gets salvaged is if David "im pitiful as a professional wrestler" otunga is gone to FCW or from the company.

I don't think that Barrett would have demanded a match versus Cena at TLC if he would not have something in mind. If it is that way, then... well.. I'm really disappointed. But saying it was stupid is really stupid... of course Barrett don't want to say why he did rehire Cena, that would ruin his plans. I think that Otunga thing was just ending of that Otunga side storyline they've been building for couple of months (at least the short bacgstage segment with Otunga and Barrett would indicate that).

[PeterHilton]

Lawler was a great wrestler in his time. He isn't Ric Flair, Hulk Hogan, or Andre the Giant but he really was great.

I'm going to go ahead and re-post what i said after this happened originally.


Lawler was a junk wrestler. He booked his own territory and -SURPRISE - stuck himself at the top for year and years and YEARS past the time anyone cared and basically killed off his own territory. And then he stuck his son at the top of the card, even when it was obvious he wasn't over with the fans.

He insulted the 'new generation of stars' repeatedly and specifically ECW despite the fact Memphis was generally garbage wrestling and crappy joke gimmicks (seriously, wrestlecrap.com is absolutely loaded with entries from Memphis). He called out guys like Taz for being too small when Lawler himself was *maybe* 5'8" -5'9"

If you take out the Andy Kaufman stuff, Jerry Lawler didn't do one significant thing in his entire wrestling career outside of the territory he ran. The only reason he's famous now is for acting like a perverted 16 year old and for having the good sense to kiss Vince's a** for a job when Verne Gagne and Jerry Jarrett refused.

Take him out of Memphis and he's the most overrated "star" of the modern wrestling era.

If you're a 'work rate' guy, Lawler was a garbage wrestler whose matches were slightly more interesting than the 'punch-kick' matches of the 80s WWF.

If you're an SE guy, Lawler was above average on the mic, but he booked himself in the same feud for a decade.

Take away his run on Raw as JR's comic relief, and fans today would have no idea who he is.

[juggaloninjalee]

I'm going to go ahead and re-post what i said after this happened originally.



If you're a 'work rate' guy, Lawler was a garbage wrestler whose matches were slightly more interesting than the 'punch-kick' matches of the 80s WWF.

If you're an SE guy, Lawler was above average on the mic, but he booked himself in the same feud for a decade.

Take away his run on Raw as JR's comic relief, and fans today would have no idea who he is.

Can't say I have seen a lot of his work because I haven't. I have read about him online (obviously not the most credible sources 100% of the time). Hasn't he had something like 150 title reigns of some sort in his career? That is a lot. Not all were for his promotion either.

[PeterHilton]

Can't say I have seen a lot of his work because I haven't. I have read about him online (obviously not the most credible sources 100% of the time). Hasn't he had something like 150 title reigns of some sort in his career? That is a lot. Not all were for his promotion either.

LOL. Then why did you talk about how 'he really was great.'

He was the head of a promotion. Of course he had a lot of title reigns. Lawler is an example of the WWE propaganda machine working in reverse of the way they operate with guys like Bruno.

He was a fairly bad wrestler, a fairly ordinary promoter, and a questionable person (based on the amount of times he was accused of things like hitting women and statutory rape) who got famous because of a publicity stunt with Andy Kaufman. And he was a complete jerk to younger workers.

Verne Gagne was ten times the wrestler and businessman Lawler was but Verne had too much pride to go work for Vince (and waaaaay too much pride to sit on screen and yell 'PUPPIES!'

I know this is overkill,but it makes me nuts that of all the stars of the territory era to leave their mark, it's this yahoo.

Nobody remembers Kevin Sullivan or Eddie Gilbert, but bring up Lawler and the WWE has convinced fans he was some genius. :rolleyes:

[Self]

Making people believe you're a big deal, despite being a fake. Some would say that makes Jerry Lawler one hell of a worker.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm going to have to say I agree with PH more then anything. I mean, Memphis was probably the worse thing I ever watched on TV, and King as champion was only one of the really good reason's not to like it.

The WWE has done a great job making him out to be better then he was, as well as turning him into the star he is today. I know I wasn't impressed with him back then... I DO like him now. I do like that he got a pretty decent match with Miz, and I like old guys in general....

However, this all doesn't really surprise me (his fame). After all, to me Vince/WWF was almost as bad as Memphis was to me. IF not for the wrestler's he hired and Wrestlemania in general, I wouldn't have ever been a fan. I followed Wrestler's back then, and when my favorites ended up on WWF, it made me watch WWF.

I was never inspired to watch Memphis though... although I watched wrestling in general, so I did watch it. It was one of those "there is no other wrestling show on at the moment" type things though.

[Hashasheen]

Nobody remembers Kevin Sullivan or Eddie Gilbert, but bring up Lawler and the WWE has convinced fans he was some genius. :rolleyes:

I'm not sure about Hotstuff, but Sullivan gets a bad rep for the Dungeon of Doom versus Hogan, his issues with Benoit and the Radicalz leaving WCW.

[PeterHilton]

Making people believe you're a big deal, despite being a fake. Some would say that makes Jerry Lawler one hell of a worker.

That's not a bad point. He's like Jeff Jarrett in that sense. The fact he killed off his own territory is what bugged me most about Lawler though.

I'm not sure about Hotstuff, but Sullivan gets a bad rep for the Dungeon of Doom versus Hogan, his issues with Benoit and the Radicalz leaving WCW.

Totally true. But Sullivan's 'cult leader' deal and the 'hardcore' feuds Gilbert created were really innovative imo. Sullivan - along with guys like Billy Graham and Adrian Street - were ahead of their time in taking wrestling from being a carny thing to being live-action drama.

[Fantabulous]

I'm looking at the TLC card and I'm wondering how they intend to give the crowd time to calm down between the crazy spots in the three-way ladder matches, the chair shots in the chair matches, the diva's going through tables spots and still have the crowd with something left to give for the two main title matches. At least with the MitB PPV they only had two MitB matches and one cage match. This one is virtually all gimmick bouts with the main event being a combination of half of the six gimmick matches before it.

[juggaloninjalee]

Every wrestler from the territory days was hard on young wrestlers. They all held them down. Every promotor pushed their family members down our throats too. Those aren't good arguments as to why not to think a guy was a good wrestler or whatever when it comes to the territory days.

From the books I have read Memphis sounded like it was a hotbed of good wrestling. I don't know a lot about how many promotions were run there or anything.

Lawler has always been entertaining when I have seen him. 90s his feud with Bret Hart was good and I thought he wrestled a few times during that.

[Hyde Hill]

Making people believe you're a big deal, despite being a fake. Some would say that makes Jerry Lawler one hell of a worker.

More the constant pounding of the WWE machine then Lawler's work in this case though imho.

[BHK1978]

I mean, Memphis was probably the worse thing I ever watched on TV, and King as champion was only one of the really good reason's not to like it.

Yeah Memphis was some of the worst crap I ever saw wrestling wise. I mean they always tried to push the likes of Eric Embry and Bill Dundee. Nothing against those two and I know Memphis could not afford to keep their superstars around for any length of time. However, one tended to grow tired of Eric Embry vs. Jerry Lawler for the 200th week in a row.

[The Two]

I'm looking at the TLC card and I'm wondering how they intend to give the crowd time to calm down between the crazy spots in the three-way ladder matches, the chair shots in the chair matches, the diva's going through tables spots and still have the crowd with something left to give for the two main title matches. At least with the MitB PPV they only had two MitB matches and one cage match. This one is virtually all gimmick bouts with the main event being a combination of half of the six gimmick matches before it.
I'm still wondering what the hell a "Chair Match" is.

[PeterHilton]

Every wrestler from the territory days was hard on young wrestlers. They all held them down. Every promotor pushed their family members down our throats too. Those aren't good arguments as to why not to think a guy was a good wrestler or whatever when it comes to the territory days.

you're taking one comment and acting as if that's my whole argument.

He was bad in the ring. BAD. If you want to talk about why he's not a 'good wrestler' you can start right there.

He ran the same feud so often that he never created any new fans and the traditional fans stopped coming to his show. He never created any new stars (unless they were related to him) while somehow driving his established stars away. And yes, other people did the same thing and those people - Gagne and the Von Erichs for instance - are generally laughed at now and seen as examples of 'promoters who failed because they couldn't keep up with the
times.'

From the books I have read Memphis sounded like it was a hotbed of good wrestling. I don't know a lot about how many promotions were run there or anything.

OK..but it's not like this is just MY opinion..

I'm going to have to say I agree with PH more then anything. I mean, Memphis was probably the worse thing I ever watched on TV, and King as champion was only one of the really good reason's not to like it.

I was never inspired to watch Memphis though... although I watched wrestling in general, so I did watch it. It was one of those "there is no other wrestling show on at the moment" type things though.

Yeah Memphis was some of the worst crap I ever saw wrestling wise. I mean they always tried to push the likes of Eric Embry and Bill Dundee. Nothing against those two and I know Memphis could not afford to keep their superstars around for any length of time. However, one tended to grow tired of Eric Embry vs. Jerry Lawler for the 200th week in a row.

Again...the guys who did the wrestlecrap site devoted an entire chapter in their book to Memphis. The promotion Lawler ran was awful.

Lawler has always been entertaining when I have seen him. 90s his feud with Bret Hart was good and I thought he wrestled a few times during that.

:rolleyes:

So you're not that informed, never really saw the company we're talking about, have limited knowledge of what Lawler was like in his prime, and your only point of comparison is a short feud he had where he worked matches against one of the best in-ring workers ever?

But you're insisting he's 'great' based on ....?

[dvdWarrior]

I've always believed Lawler was at least good in the ring... but most of that came from his feud with Bret Hart in WWF. Most of my opinion on him quite frankly comes from things I've heard, rather than things I've seen, most notably the whole Andy Kaufman thing.

I missed out on most of the Memphis stuff during the 80s, and only saw a little of the USWA whenever it came to pass, but surprisingly I can't seem to remember anything about it.

Lawler doesn't seem to pop up all that often on WWE Classics On Demand either.

So maybe his legend is mostly hype.

Just my insignificant contribution to the conversation.

[PeterHilton]

Again...it's mainly that I think it's unfair that he gets brought up as a 'legend' of the territory era when there were so many more talented and more deserving workers.

...if Col DeBeers had ended up calling Raw for the last decade would we be talking about how he's a legend too?

[Hyde Hill]

Again...it's mainly that I think it's unfair that he gets brought up as a 'legend' of the territory era when there were so many more talented and more deserving workers.

...if Col DeBeers had ended up calling Raw for the last decade would we be talking about how he's a legend too?

Yep we would or at least the E would have done its best to convince us to do so.

[PeterHilton]

Probably right. WHich is sad. Which is why i get on here and harass poor JNL when he posts how great Lawler is...the fans who remember first hand have an obligation to tell younger fans the truth and not 'the truth as the WWE tells it.' :p

[b0shey]

So, just to clarify, John Cena was "Fired" for a grand total of 3 weeks and appeared on TV every single one of them.
Well, that was a worthwhile and meaningful angle. :rolleyes:

This was the most pointless "your fired" angle in history :confused:, but hey its all about the kids RIGHT?

[Condors]

Again...it's mainly that I think it's unfair that he gets brought up as a 'legend' of the territory era when there were so many more talented and more deserving workers.

...if Col DeBeers had ended up calling Raw for the last decade would we be talking about how he's a legend too?

Col DeBeers is a legend :twirls stache in heroic pose:

[djthefunkchris]

This was the most pointless "your fired" angle in history :confused:, but hey its all about the kids RIGHT?
Hmm, I see consistancy in your posts, lol.
total bullcrap, how could Cena win the Holy **** awards :eek:
Evan Bourne RKO was the true OMG moment of the year.
LOL, ok. Honestly though, I think it was more like the best move Orton and Bourne did all year... Not sure if I would say it outdid putting Batista through the floor from up high though. Not that I think That was the one either, I would have to think about it.. but definately don't think the RKO should have won it.
Come On.... Michelle McTaker Diva of the year :mad:........ BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

OMG.... Cena won superstar of the year... what a complete shock
LayCool has been probably the hottest act in the diva's division all year, and largely because of McCool. So maybe we just don't see it that way? I'm curious on who you would pick though.... Beth Phoenix?

And who would win Superstar of the year. Punk? Jericho (I wouldn't have minded), Orton? I don't know, the biggest part of the year seemed to be centered around Cena and the Nexus. So I guess Cena would have got my vote there. Close call with Orton though, he's been pretty hot. Of course, an upset with the Miz would have been cool as well. Overall though, I don't have a problem with thier picks, at least the one's you've pointed out.

That's not a bad point. He's like Jeff Jarrett in that sense. The fact he killed off his own territory is what bugged me most about Lawler though.



Totally true. But Sullivan's 'cult leader' deal and the 'hardcore' feuds Gilbert created were really innovative imo. Sullivan - along with guys like Billy Graham and Adrian Street - were ahead of their time in taking wrestling from being a carny thing to being live-action drama.
I like the comparison of Jeff Jarrett and Lawler, that's pretty good IMO. I like both of them alot more now then I did when they were in their prime.

But come on... Adrian Street is like the perfect Carny Character, lol.
I've always believed Lawler was at least good in the ring... but most of that came from his feud with Bret Hart in WWF. Most of my opinion on him quite frankly comes from things I've heard, rather than things I've seen, most notably the whole Andy Kaufman thing.

I missed out on most of the Memphis stuff during the 80s, and only saw a little of the USWA whenever it came to pass, but surprisingly I can't seem to remember anything about it.

Lawler doesn't seem to pop up all that often on WWE Classics On Demand either.

So maybe his legend is mostly hype.

Just my insignificant contribution to the conversation.
Lawler is by far better in his current position (as a commentator), then he ever was in the ring, IMO. NOW, dont' get me wrong... There are things you look back at on it, kind of like attack of the killer tomatoes, and have a fun laugh (Andy Kaufman). But now and then everyone has these "Cult" type classic moments. Just... Memphis in general was on TV only because there was NO OTHER competition in that territory. At least that's my opinion.
Again...it's mainly that I think it's unfair that he gets brought up as a 'legend' of the territory era when there were so many more talented and more deserving workers.

...if Col DeBeers had ended up calling Raw for the last decade would we be talking about how he's a legend too?
If he can be as charasmatic... That's one thing Lawler has proven to have, charisma. I don't think everyone could have done that, but I think anyone could have been hyped as the "great legend" if pumped by the WWE they way he is.
Probably right. WHich is sad. Which is why i get on here and harass poor JNL when he posts how great Lawler is...the fans who remember first hand have an obligation to tell younger fans the truth and not 'the truth as the WWE tells it.' :p

We try, but sometimes you refuse to listen to us.:p

[juggaloninjalee]

Hmm, I see consistancy in your posts, lol.

LOL, ok. Honestly though, I think it was more like the best move Orton and Bourne did all year... Not sure if I would say it outdid putting Batista through the floor from up high though. Not that I think That was the one either, I would have to think about it.. but definately don't think the RKO should have won it.

LayCool has been probably the hottest act in the diva's division all year, and largely because of McCool. So maybe we just don't see it that way? I'm curious on who you would pick though.... Beth Phoenix?

And who would win Superstar of the year. Punk? Jericho (I wouldn't have minded), Orton? I don't know, the biggest part of the year seemed to be centered around Cena and the Nexus. So I guess Cena would have got my vote there. Close call with Orton though, he's been pretty hot. Of course, an upset with the Miz would have been cool as well. Overall though, I don't have a problem with thier picks, at least the one's you've pointed out.


I like the comparison of Jeff Jarrett and Lawler, that's pretty good IMO. I like both of them alot more now then I did when they were in their prime.

But come on... Adrian Street is like the perfect Carny Character, lol.

Lawler is by far better in his current position (as a commentator), then he ever was in the ring, IMO. NOW, dont' get me wrong... There are things you look back at on it, kind of like attack of the killer tomatoes, and have a fun laugh (Andy Kaufman). But now and then everyone has these "Cult" type classic moments. Just... Memphis in general was on TV only because there was NO OTHER competition in that territory. At least that's my opinion.

If he can be as charasmatic... That's one thing Lawler has proven to have, charisma. I don't think everyone could have done that, but I think anyone could have been hyped as the "great legend" if pumped by the WWE they way he is.


We try, but sometimes you refuse to listen to us.:p

I've seen Lawler wrestle a few different people in the last 20 years. He hasn't been terrible. He knows how to work a match and is old now. Still watchable matches I think.

Maybe I am wrong on him being good in the territory days. I admitted that I hadn't seen a lot. I know most of his 150 reigns weren't all from his own promotion though too. So others at the time saw something in him to put a strap on him.

[PeterHilton]

I've seen Lawler wrestle a few different people in the last 20 years. He hasn't been terrible. He knows how to work a match and is old now. Still watchable matches I think.

Maybe I am wrong on him being good in the territory days. I admitted that I hadn't seen a lot. I know most of his 150 reigns weren't all from his own promotion though too. So others at the time saw something in him to put a strap on him.

:rolleyes:

Promoters back then would exchange favors. Lawler ran a promotion. So it was easy for him to go to a territory and get a big push and maybe a title run in exchange for giving one of their workers similar treatment.

Also..the fact that he ran a promotion meant he ALWAYS had some name value, which of course meant he'd be somewhat of a name even when he traveled. Sort of self-fulfilling hype.

[ThriceP86]

Off topic of Lawler, just wanted to comment that CM Punk getting the "Despicable Me" Award was awesome even though the crowd didn't know whether to boo or cheer him, or so it seemed.

[Slagaholic]

:rolleyes:

Promoters back then would exchange favors. Lawler ran a promotion. So it was easy for him to go to a territory and get a big push and maybe a title run in exchange for giving one of their workers similar treatment.

Also..the fact that he ran a promotion meant he ALWAYS had some name value, which of course meant he'd be somewhat of a name even when he traveled. Sort of self-fulfilling hype.
Dick The Devastator is annoyed by your statements.

[Hitman23]

Does anyone remember the Christmas Monster that Lawlar booked one time as a big monster Heel?

[Wrestling Century]

Does anyone remember the Christmas Monster that Lawlar booked one time as a big monster Heel?

You mean the time that Kane debuted in the Memphis territory under the name of the Christmas Monster? I personally haven't seen any footage of it, but I've heard of that angle.

[lazorbeak]

You mean the time that Kane debuted in the Memphis territory under the name of the Christmas Monster? I personally haven't seen any footage of it, but I've heard of that angle.

Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8NR9TMpOX4&feature=related

[Candyman]

This was the most pointless "your fired" angle in history :confused:, but hey its all about the kids RIGHT?

Pointless if you mean that it advanced the story, made people watch Raw every week, and entertained people along the way...I'm not sure how this angle was any more pointless than anything else the WWE (or any other wrestling company/TV show/entertainment venue) does, to be honest...like I've said all along, the only mistake the WWE made here was having Cena give such an emotional, seemingly heart felt, good bye the night after he was fired. That now seems very hallow and insincere, which is bad for a face...but take away that speech, and this storyline's been more or less flawless so far.

[Hyde Hill]

Does anyone remember the Christmas Monster that Lawlar booked one time as a big monster Heel?

Yeah wrestlecrap often highlights it under the weird world of wrestling tab. There is some other Memphis Lawler "goodness" under that same tab now.

[Hive]

Sure, that Christmas Monster thing was a horrible gimmick... but in Lawler's defense, I've seen both WWF and WCW do worse (like the Mantaur and the Yeti).

[PeterHilton]

Pointless if you mean that it advanced the story, made people watch Raw every week, and entertained people along the way...I'm not sure how this angle was any more pointless than anything else the WWE (or any other wrestling company/TV show/entertainment venue) does, to be honest...like I've said all along, the only mistake the WWE made here was having Cena give such an emotional, seemingly heart felt, good bye the night after he was fired. That now seems very hallow and insincere, which is bad for a face...but take away that speech, and this storyline's been more or less flawless so far.

I don't know about 'flawless' ...

They could have left Cena at home at least a couple of weeks; it would've built anticipation in the audience and let Nexus get some heat. It would've been more effective from a storytelling standpoint (and that speech wouldn't have seemed so hollow after the fact).

i'm sure your response will be that they can't leave Cena off TV because it hurts ratings. But ratings are down this time of year anyway and even with Cena Raw has been hovering in the mid 3's.

[PeterHilton]

Sure, that Christmas Monster thing was a horrible gimmick... but in Lawler's defense, I've seen both WWF and WCW do worse (like the Mantaur and the Yeti).

Lawler and Memphis did it more often ..the Christmas Monster thing isn't even the weirdest gimmick Lawler booked himself against.

And yes, WWF and WCW have done worse, but that monster thing is just one example of the really really poor and outdated booking that hurt the Memphis territory.

He's not the worst booker ever by any means...just one of the few who never seems to be mentioned whenever that 'worst booker' conversation comes up.

[ampulator]

Lawler and Memphis did it more often ..the Christmas Monster thing isn't even the weirdest gimmick Lawler booked himself against.

And yes, WWF and WCW have done worse, but that monster thing is just one example of the really really poor and outdated booking that hurt the Memphis territory.

He's not the worst booker ever by any means...just one of the few who never seems to be mentioned whenever that 'worst booker' conversation comes up.
I tihink it has more to do with the fact very few peoplek knows he's a booker.

[lazorbeak]

Sure, that Christmas Monster thing was a horrible gimmick... but in Lawler's defense, I've seen both WWF and WCW do worse (like the Mantaur and the Yeti).

You mean the Yet-ay?

Lawler and Memphis did it more often ..the Christmas Monster thing isn't even the weirdest gimmick Lawler booked himself against.

And yes, WWF and WCW have done worse, but that monster thing is just one example of the really really poor and outdated booking that hurt the Memphis territory.

He's not the worst booker ever by any means...just one of the few who never seems to be mentioned whenever that 'worst booker' conversation comes up.

Lawler's booking of USWA is just an example of not changing with the times. I love camp and goofy crap more than the next guy, but their "apple pie and wrestling" type product was a good decade out of date by the mid-1990's. Instead of innovating, they were basically doing what WWF had already done years earlier, but without the A-list talent pilfering. No question but that he's tremendously overrated because of his work with WWF and the work he did to make himself a star in his own backyard.

[TheKenwyne]

Scott Stamford and CM Punk are the best commentary team in the E right now. If this was TEW they'd get a Great chemistry note for sure... some of the stuff on Superstars last night was absolutely brilliant :D

[crownsy]

Scott Stamford and CM Punk are the best commentary team in the E right now. If this was TEW they'd get a Great chemistry note for sure... some of the stuff on Superstars last night was absolutely brilliant :D

Punk's one liners are just flat out brillant

"John! No! my soooodaaaaa!" might have been one of the greatest calls on an AA through a table of all time :D

[djthefunkchris]

Punk's one liners are just flat out brillant

"John! No! my soooodaaaaa!" might have been one of the greatest calls on an AA through a table of all time :D

What made it funnier, was Cena grabbing the soda, handing it to him, then Punk throwing it aside as if it was poison.

[supershot]

What made it funnier, was Cena grabbing the soda, handing it to him, then Punk throwing it aside as if it was poison.

Haha wow, I might have to go watch this.

[MichiganHero]

Anybody got a YouTube link to the Punk Soda Incident.

[djthefunkchris]

Anybody got a YouTube link to the Punk Soda Incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP8-tFN-O1w&feature=related

[Comradebot]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NP8-tFN-O1w&feature=related

Honestly, pretty good promo from Cena.

[Jaysin]

Was Punk wearing a Charles Manson t shirt? :eek:

[dvdWarrior]

Was Punk wearing a Charles Manson t shirt? :eek:

Yes, he was, and I THINK he was wearing a Colt Cabana shirt one week also.

A friend of mine used to have a Manson shirt like that too.

:)

[Eisen-verse]

The WWE should give Dolph Ziggler the 'Fame-asser' and just get it over with....

[Teh_Showtime]

Never thought I'd say this, but it's gonna be a sad day for wrestling when Punk gets back into the ring.

He is by far the best Announcer in the WWE and when he gets healthy I will miss his epic commentary.

But that hint to someone wronging him could be potential win

[supershot]

Cenas promo was one of the best I've see from him. Gotta admit I will be sad to soo Punk leave the announce table. Im not sure where I want him more, in the ring or at the table?

[Teh_Showtime]

he should commentate on his own matches :eek:

[supershot]

he should commentate on his own matches :eek:

Ya! wait.. wut?

[Jaysin]

Ya! wait.. wut?

Booker T did it one time in TNA...it was amazing

[sebsy]

Reckon there's a good opportunity for Cena to turn heel with the return of Triple H. They won't do it, just a thought I've had as to a possible way they could do it.

HHH returns and has his little feud with Sheamus while Cena continues his feud with Nexus, showing a couple of signs of getting annoyed that no one ever comes to his aid when he gets beaten down by Nexus.

Cena gets eliminated by HHH in the rumble, who later gets eliminated himself. Cena starts to turn and attacks someone random (Mark Henry, R-Truth - take your pick) He has a couple of segments involving Triple H that lead to them taking on two heels and Cena gets beaten down when Triple H is taken out. The next week Cena and HHH team again, and Cena suddenly assaults Triple H and beats him down. The next week he comes out and says if it wasn't for him their might not even be a WWE now, because of him standing up to the Nexus, everyone else in the WWE still has a job yet none of them come to help him when he gets beaten down, then says Triple H had the nerve to eliminate me from the Rumble when if anyone deserves to fight for the championship at Mania, it is Cena. Cena says where was Triple H when Cena was standing up to the Nexus and says even when Cena was fighting for everyone, there were still people booing him but Triple H comes back to the heroes welcome, well he's had enough, he's sick of the fans, he's sick of fighting everyone elses battles and he's sick of Triple H.....

[Hyde Hill]

Cena won't go heel till Orton is much more established as a true face and the (other) face of WWE I think. Also I don't think Orton will ever get to that level or at least anytime soon.

[MrCanada]

I wish Cena would turn, however they have long missed their opportunity. Now too many people are rallying/wanting it for it to truly make a large impact. Not that it wouldnt still be a big deal, just not as big as if Cena had been revealed as the mastermind behind Nexus a while ago, with the whole thing a ploy for him to get the WWE title back somehow.

ANYWAY...

Anyone ordering TLC tonight? I'm on the fence and have to decide soon obviously.

On paper the card looks like what it looks like, a gimmick filled spotfest with likely half decent wrestling. But if I wanted to see that I'd just order a ROH PPV (and Final Battle didnt interest me at all). I dont really see too much of a reason to order (although I may just do it, nothing else to do tonight, lol).

I could see CM Punk returning, costing Orton his match with Miz. Punk is slated to return to house shows next week or so. And his promo about how someone wronged him and he never forgets and blah blah blah, I think could reference Orton costing him his first WWE belt. So it fits.

What would make me want to order this:

-- The World Heavyweight belt switching hands. Gong = distraction = Del Rio winning! I can hope.

-- CM Punk returning to the ring.

-- Possibly finally pulling the trigger on a Morrison push. Morrison vs. Miz for the WWE title! Who'd of thunk it? And a HHH return to help that along fits, but I actually have been enjoying HHHless WWE. I see Sheamus and Morrison curtain jerking tonight which isnt a bad thing either.

-- Maybe WWE finally giving women's wrestling a chance. Have Beth turn on Natalya and do an ultimate best of 100000000 series. lol.

-- That said there are only 6 matches, and WWE made the decision to cut it to there from 7. So obviously either: a) Matches are going to get time to be good or b) there is enough storylines/angles going on like a Punk or HHH return or Beth turn to warrent the extra time.

[Teh_Showtime]

Morrison vs. Miz for the WWE title! Who'd of thunk it?

*raises hand*

[Hitman23]

I feel they've done all they can with Nexus without turning a big time ME and have him join. So I say have HHH be in the Nexus because I have always liked Heel HHH over face. Have HHH and Cena feud, have Miz and CM Punk feud and have good storyline involving the US title

[jwt13]

Can someone PM me a link to a stream

[MrCanada]

found a way to watch it online, and its sucked thus far.

Ziggler vs. Swagger vs. Kofi
-- Nothing happened. Literally. I cant even remember a spot besides a sleeper on the ladder. Finish was Swagger and Kofi fighting for the belt, they drop it, Ziggler grabs it and wins.

Nattie and Beth vs. Laycool
-- I remember why women dont work gimmick matches more often now. It was just them stalling all the time. Hold someone in military press for 30 seconds so Michelle can get in.... over and over. Finish was anti climactic. Nattie just pushing them through the table. Luckily the botch actually helped save face.

Not a good start..... So far 1/3 of the matches have happened in 30 minutes, and they both sucked, good thing I saved my 50 bucks.

[jwt13]

found a way to watch it online, and its sucked thus far.

Ziggler vs. Swagger vs. Kofi
-- Nothing happened. Literally. I cant even remember a spot besides a sleeper on the ladder. Finish was Swagger and Kofi fighting for the belt, they drop it, Ziggler grabs it and wins.

Nattie and Beth vs. Laycool
-- I remember why women dont work gimmick matches more often now. It was just them stalling all the time. Hold someone in military press for 30 seconds so Michelle can get in.... over and over. Finish was anti climactic. Nattie just pushing them through the table. Luckily the botch actually helped save face.

Not a good start..... So far 1/3 of the matches have happened in 30 minutes, and they both sucked, good thing I saved my 50 bucks.

I agree it really has been bad

[Tha Black Phenom]

However, we just got the match of the night. Great work from both JM and King Pale.

[MrCanada]

However, we just got the match of the night. Great work from both JM and King Pale.

Wasnt that good. Been let down. It was a ladder match after all, and there was really only one BIG spot, and one other cool spot (the ankle thing with the ladder). Dunno. Let down so far. Dont see Miz vs. Orton saving it either. Whens the last time Orton honestly had a GREAT match? Been a long long time. He has okay matches, watchable matches, but a great one? Rarely.

[jwt13]

this has been a waste of my time tbh but i have nothing else to do

[Wrestling Century]

Can someone PM me a link to a stream

found a way to watch it online, and its sucked thus far.


You two sicken me. It's jerks like you two who make the PPV prices go up, so people like us who pay for it and watch it legally have to pay more money. Thanks a lot. Plus, you two are basically ripping off the WWE and the pro wrestlers, who are PROVIDING the entertainment that you are stealing. Jerks.

[Basmat01]

You two sicken me. It's jerks like you two who make the PPV prices go up, so people like us who pay for it and watch it legally have to pay more money. Thanks a lot. Plus, you two are basically ripping off the WWE and the pro wrestlers, who are PROVIDING the entertainment that you are stealing. Jerks.

LMAO I find it hard to believe that you havernt done it

[Linsolv]

No, Wrestling Century. People who pirate don't actually hurt sales. Most people who pirate video are the people who would skip a $50 PPV rather than watch it, except if they get to pirate it. They're basically ripping off WWE, sure. But are they ripping off CM Punk? Is his paycheck getting hurt by them streaming? No, it's not. Vince's maybe, but should I be looking out for a billionaire's interests? Where's he when I need to go to college to become a productive member of society? OH, so you're saying that I should feel morally obligated because I'm a proletariat and he's a captain of industry? I refuse.

Secondly, I think MrCanada was actually saying that they're not providing him with entertainment.

EDIT: I will, however, agree with lazorbeak below. I don't have a problem with people who pirate media, but... site run by GDS might not be the place.

[lazorbeak]

Can someone PM me a link to a stream

found a way to watch it online, and its sucked thus far.

Ziggler vs. Swagger vs. Kofi
-- Nothing happened. Literally. I cant even remember a spot besides a sleeper on the ladder. Finish was Swagger and Kofi fighting for the belt, they drop it, Ziggler grabs it and wins.

Nattie and Beth vs. Laycool
-- I remember why women dont work gimmick matches more often now. It was just them stalling all the time. Hold someone in military press for 30 seconds so Michelle can get in.... over and over. Finish was anti climactic. Nattie just pushing them through the table. Luckily the botch actually helped save face.

Not a good start..... So far 1/3 of the matches have happened in 30 minutes, and they both sucked, good thing I saved my 50 bucks.

Can someone recommend me to a way to do illegal things? Because on a sponsored site for commercial products seems like the place to talk about how I don't pay for the media I watch. Seriously as annoying as the boy's club at EWB can be, thank goodness they don't put up with this garbage.

[Wrestling Century]

LMAO I find it hard to believe that you havernt done it

Actually, I haven't ever done that. It sickens me when people think that it is alright to harm the economy.

[Basmat01]

Actually, I haven't ever done that. It sickens me when people think that it is alright to harm the economy.

LOL yeah and I bet you download pirated Music, Movies and Software. dont say you dont cause everyone does

Get off your high horse

[Linsolv]

LOL yeah and I bet you download pirated Music, Movies and Software. dont say you dont cause everyone does

Get off your high horse

Some people don't.

But Wrestling Century -- ever been walking through the mall, and then looked into an electronics store as you passed by? Then you saw, as it happens, a new Blu-Ray movie showing on a TV, so you sort of look over without stopping? YOU HURT THE ECONOMY BY YOUR LOGIC.

The simple fact is that pirating does not hurt the economy. People who are willing to buy still do. People who aren't pirate. It tends to actually help brand strength because the simple fact is that every person who is a fan of yours is another chance for someone who WILL pay to see that person and say, I wanna be like that guy.

[lazorbeak]

Linsolv, even if what you're saying is true, maybe a message board run by a company that does in fact sell content for money is not the place to ask someone to help you violate copyright?

[Linsolv]

That's exactly what I said above, but I edited it in because I mostly intended that post as a response to Wrestling Century. The fact is that if you want to pirate PSP games (the most pirated game system, AFAIK) then that's your prerogative. But if you want to do it on Sony's official forums, you're stupid. The fact is that Arlie and the guys need to stay in business, and even though the odds are astronomical, the FBI could come down on their heads if they felt like it, if we were to sit here and trade stream links.

EDIT: A quick citation with regards to my argument that downloads do not hurt sales, from Oberholzer (Harvard Business School) and Strumpf (UNC Chapel Hill)'s research paper published in 2004: "We find that file sharing has no statistically significant effect on purchases of the average album in our sample. Moreover, the estimates are of rather modest size when compared to the drastic reduction in sales in the music industry. At most, file sharing can explain a tiny fraction of this decline."

For more information on their study, including their research methodology and data, you can read their paper here: http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf

The RIAA insists they're crazy, but I don't trust anyone who is called a liar by empirical research.

[Hashasheen]

Actually, I haven't ever done that. It sickens me when people think that it is alright to harm the economy.

What if you don't have access the product to aid the economy in the first place?

[Basmat01]

I hate a double standard its wrong to watch a PPV stream but its ok to watch wrestling Videos on Youtube for free even though they can be watched on WWE on Demand for a fee

[ampulator]

That's exactly what I said above, but I edited it in because I mostly intended that post as a response to Wrestling Century. The fact is that if you want to pirate PSP games (the most pirated game system, AFAIK) then that's your prerogative. But if you want to do it on Sony's official forums, you're stupid. The fact is that Arlie and the guys need to stay in business, and even though the odds are astronomical, the FBI could come down on their heads if they felt like it, if we were to sit here and trade stream links.

EDIT: A quick citation with regards to my argument that downloads do not hurt sales, from Oberholzer (Harvard Business School) and Strumpf (UNC Chapel Hill)'s research paper published in 2004: "We find that file sharing has no statistically significant effect on purchases of the average album in our sample. Moreover, the estimates are of rather modest size when compared to the drastic reduction in sales in the music industry. At most, file sharing can explain a tiny fraction of this decline."

For more information on their study, including their research methodology and data, you can read their paper here: http://www.unc.edu/~cigar/papers/FileSharing_March2004.pdf

The RIAA insists they're crazy, but I don't trust anyone who is called a liar by empirical research.

The point for the RIAA isn't money... but control. Why do you think Microsoft sues GPL?

[Linsolv]

If you want to debate their motives, I'm sorry but this thread isn't the time or place -- I'd love to debate in a PM. But to be honest my comments have been almost exclusively driven by a disagreement with Wrestling Century.

Lazerbeak I make an almost complete qualified agreement with; Basmat01 has points that I want to agree with but I stronly condemn his arguing style. So it pretty much comes down to WC.

[jwt13]

You two sicken me. It's jerks like you two who make the PPV prices go up, so people like us who pay for it and watch it legally have to pay more money. Thanks a lot. Plus, you two are basically ripping off the WWE and the pro wrestlers, who are PROVIDING the entertainment that you are stealing. Jerks.

LMAO kid if the WWE intrested me enough I would consider buying but right now I'm going to stick to what I'm doing. (Guess your PPV prices will get higher;))

[Wrestling Century]

If you want to debate their motives, I'm sorry but this thread isn't the time or place -- I'd love to debate in a PM. But to be honest my comments have been almost exclusively driven by a disagreement with Wrestling Century.

Lazerbeak I make an almost complete qualified agreement with; Basmat01 has points that I want to agree with but I stronly condemn his arguing style. So it pretty much comes down to WC.

Here's my point. How is it fair that people like me pay for the PPV (like you are supposed to), but yet other *******s get to watch the same exact thing for free (illegally I might add)? They are cheating the system, and are just being total douche bags. Also, Mr.Canada was thinking about buying the PPV, so he obviously had the money to buy it, and jwt just admitted that he had the money to buy the PPV. So basically, you guys are just saying that since you want to watch it, but would rather keep your money, you'll just screw everybody over.

[Wrestling Century]

LMAO kid if the WWE intrested me enough I would consider buying but right now I'm going to stick to what I'm doing. (Guess your PPV prices will get higher;))

Don't call me a "kid". That's ticks me off very badly. I'm ****ing 28 and I have a family! Don't call me a "kid"! For some reason people on message boards call me a kid all the time. Do I really act like a ****ing kid? I'm not in a good mood, because a bunch of jerks who scam people have pissed me off.

[jwt13]

Here's my point. How is it fair that people like me pay for the PPV (like you are supposed to), but yet other *******s get to watch the same exact thing for free (illegally I might add)? They are cheating the system, and are just being total douche bags. Also, Mr.Canada was thinking about buying the PPV, so he obviously had the money to buy it, and jwt just admitted that he had the money to buy the PPV. So basically, you guys are just saying that since you want to watch it, but would rather keep your money, you'll just screw everybody over.

I don't have the money to waste 3 hours on something that sucks I bought BFG, and last years WM and last years NOC but much rather save my money and watch online there is more important things to spend my money on.

Edit: TBH yes I thought you were around 15

[Wrestling Century]

I don't have the money to waste 3 hours on something that sucks I bought BFG, and last years WM and last years NOC but much rather save my money and watch online there is more important things to spend my money on.

If you don't have the money to buy it, THEN DON'T ****ING WATCH IT! You are just pirating the PPV. That pisses me off, as I actually pay for the PPV. But instead, you just decide that since "it sucks" you get it for free. That's not the way things work.

[jwt13]

If you don't have the money to buy it, THEN DON'T ****ING WATCH IT! You are just pirating the PPV. That pisses me off, as I actually pay for the PPV. But instead, you just decide that since "it sucks" you get it for free. That's not the way things work.

It is for me and alot of other people ;)

Edit: You know Adams not going to be to happy with the language your using

[Wrestling Century]

Also, I apologize for being acting like a jerk about all of this, but pirates/people who don't pay for things piss me off to no end. What if somebody bought a candy and they didn't like the taste of it, does that give them a right to go and get there money back, even if there was nothing wrong with the candy?

[Wrestling Century]

It is for me and alot of other people ;)

Edit: You know Adams not going to be to happy with the language your using

I apologize. I should keep this conversation civil. I will stop swearing.

[jwt13]

Also, I apologize for being acting like a jerk about all of this, but pirates/people who don't pay for things piss me off to no end. What if somebody bought a candy and they didn't like the taste of it, does that give them a right to go and get there money back, even if there was nothing wrong with the candy?

Ive been to resturants that the food sucked so yes I did get my money back so yea.

Edit: NP it dont bother me none but he has strict rules on that stuff

[ampulator]

If you want to debate their motives, I'm sorry but this thread isn't the time or place -- I'd love to debate in a PM. But to be honest my comments have been almost exclusively driven by a disagreement with Wrestling Century.

Lazerbeak I make an almost complete qualified agreement with; Basmat01 has points that I want to agree with but I stronly condemn his arguing style. So it pretty much comes down to WC.

Oh no, I'm more in agreement with you than WC. He's... well, I hate to say it, naive. He's a good person at hear, though.

If you don't have the money to buy it, THEN DON'T ****ING WATCH IT! You are just pirating the PPV. That pisses me off, as I actually pay for the PPV. But instead, you just decide that since "it sucks" you get it for free. That's not the way things work.

That's great. Maybe you should force people not to steal it then. Oh wait, you can't. Stealing physical objects is a different from stealing non-physical objects. It's as simple as that.

[BHK1978]

If you don't have the money to buy it, THEN DON'T ****ING WATCH IT! You are just pirating the PPV. That pisses me off, as I actually pay for the PPV. But instead, you just decide that since "it sucks" you get it for free. That's not the way things work.

You cannot dictate morality WC, people are going to steal no matter what anyone else says. I for one agree with you but people who are doing the wrong thing will find ways to justify why they are doing it. This is just one arguement that you cannot win.

[Wrestling Century]

Ive been to resturants that the food sucked so yes I did get my money back so yea.

Edit: NP it dont bother me none but he has strict rules on that stuff

What I meant was what if other people liked the taste of the candy, but someone else didn't, so they tried to get their money back? Because personally, I enjoyed the PPV.

You cannot dictate morality WC, people are going to steal no matter what anyone else says. I for one agree with you but people who are doing the wrong thing will find ways to justify why they are doing it. This is just one arguement that you cannot win.

I know. I should stop starting arguments that I can't win. :p I shouldn't have gotten so worked up over all of this. I apologize for bothering everybody.

[ampulator]

You cannot dictate morality WC, people are going to steal no matter what anyone else says. I for one agree with you but people who are doing the wrong thing will find ways to justify why they are doing it. This is just one arguement that you cannot win.
Well, I can understand his position, but again, stealing physical objects is different than stealing non-physical objects. You CAN stop people from stealing physical objects. Most people will not steal physical objects if there is no sufficient reason to do so. Non-physical objects is not the same case.

[jwt13]

What I meant was what if other people liked the taste of the candy, but someone else didn't, so they tried to get their money back? Because personally, I enjoyed the PPV..

it got better as the show went on

[jwt13]

Well, I can understand his position, but again, stealing physical objects is different than stealing non-physical objects. You CAN stop people from stealing physical objects. Most people will not steal physical objects if there is no sufficient reason to do so. Non-physical objects is not the same case.

This I agree with. I have never stole from anybody or any store but IMO its not wrong to watch PPVs online

[Wrestling Century]

Well, I can understand his position, but again, stealing physical objects is different than stealing non-physical objects. You CAN stop people from stealing physical objects. Most people will not steal physical objects if there is no sufficient reason to do so. Non-physical objects is not the same case.

Yeah, but no matter what you steal, it is still stealing. Woah, try saying that sentence 10 times fast! :D

[Wrestling Century]

This I agree with. I have never stole from anybody or any store but IMO its not wrong to watch PPVs online

Fair enough I suppose. I'll have my opinion and you can have yours. Now, I'm going to try to get back on topic.

Do you guys think that the Cena/Barrett fued is now over? If so, what are they going to build towards for WrestleMania?

[Linsolv]

Well, I understand you having a pet peeve, WC, and I'm not trying to take that from you. I'm trying to say that whether or not you're entitled to feel morally superior (I suppose you ARE entitled to that feeling), they're not scum for being less than perfect in your eyes. In fact, as I said earlier, the only person they're stealing from is someone who they could NEVER hurt enough to put in the poor house. [EDIT: To clarify; with that, I'll extend the offer to agree to disagree.]

So, was the rest of the PPV good? I only heard people refer to the first 3 matches so far.

[TakerNGN74]

The entire pay per view was solid even the womens match in my opinion.

[jwt13]

Well, I understand you having a pet peeve, WC, and I'm not trying to take that from you. I'm trying to say that whether or not you're entitled to feel morally superior (I suppose you ARE entitled to that feeling), they're not scum for being less than perfect in your eyes. In fact, as I said earlier, the only person they're stealing from is someone who they could NEVER hurt enough to put in the poor house. [EDIT: To clarify; with that, I'll extend the offer to agree to disagree.]

So, was the rest of the PPV good? I only heard people refer to the first 3 matches so far.

It got better as the show went on i say a 7.5/10

[Linsolv]

I mean... the idea of Kofi, Ziggler, and Swagger putting on a match that's as bad as you guys are saying? Unthinkable. I need to go into my bat-cave and re-evaluate my world-view now.

[jwt13]

I mean... the idea of Kofi, Ziggler, and Swagger putting on a match that's as bad as you guys are saying? Unthinkable. I need to go into my bat-cave and re-evaluate my world-view now.

I missed the first match so IDK how it was

[jbergey_2005]

This I agree with. I have never stole from anybody or any store but IMO its not wrong to watch PPVs online

Well obviously it is wrong because otherwise WWE would show the live stream from their website free. I do it every once in awhile as well knowing it is wrong. Usually them streams just blow or get cut off anyway so if its something I really want to watch I wont waste my time trying to find a live feed.

[LordJaguar]

If it cost money and you don't pay it is stealing...period...exclamation point!

Can we justify stealing an over priced wasdte of 3 hours? Yeah, but so can Hitler eradicating all those nice Jewish folks. If you do not want to pay for it because it cost too much then don't but do not try to say stealing it is ok because Vince is rich. Last time I checked stealing was a crime no matter how much money the victim has.

[Self]

I'd say pirating is wrong, but there are varying degrees of wrong. For me, a man who likes to sleep on Sunday nights instead of staying up until 4am to watch a live PPV, and who can't justify paying for Sky TV just to buy the odd PPV, the easiest way for me to watch those shows is, regrettably, the illegal way. I once tried to order a Royal Rumble on WWE.com, but the sodding thing didn't work, so I ended up hunting down an illegal stream.

Wrestling PPV's aren't worth $40 anyway. Not to me at least. $15? Sure. It's only 3 hours of entertainment, and you can only watch it once. If seeing one of the Lord of the Rings flicks in the cinema cost $40, would you go see it? I know live sporting events should be more expensive, purely for the 'live' aspect, but... son of a biscuit that's a lot of money for something you're only going to watch once.

[jbergey_2005]

I'd say pirating is wrong, but there are varying degrees of wrong. For me, a man who likes to sleep on Sunday nights instead of staying up until 4am to watch a live PPV, and who can't justify paying for Sky TV just to buy the odd PPV, the easiest way for me to watch those shows is, regrettably, the illegal way. I once tried to order a Royal Rumble on WWE.com, but the sodding thing didn't work, so I ended up hunting down an illegal stream.

Wrestling PPV's aren't worth $40 anyway. Not to me at least. $15? Sure. It's only 3 hours of entertainment, and you can only watch it once. If seeing one of the Lord of the Rings flicks in the cinema cost $40, would you go see it? I know live sporting events should be more expensive, purely for the 'live' aspect, but... son of a biscuit that's a lot of money for something you're only going to watch once.

This is how I feel. I pay WWE on demand money each month and a lot of times they dont update it for 1-2 days each month so their is very little on there to watch 1-2 days each month. If I want to watch 1 match from a PPV on a stream that is usually just horrid to watch I feel like Vince is still getting my money in other ways.

I wonder why the WWE thinks that 40+ for PPVs is the right price. I would think they would do much better in that 15-20 range. They should set WM at around 50, Royal Rumble and Summerslam around 40 and the other ones at 20. That to me is about what they are worth.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Don't call me a "kid". That's ticks me off very badly. I'm ****ing 28 and I have a family! Don't call me a "kid"! For some reason people on message boards call me a kid all the time. Do I really act like a ****ing kid? I'm not in a good mood, because a bunch of jerks who scam people have pissed me off.

Not trying to start crap, or talk mess.... But yeah, I thought you were like 16. Honest to God.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I mean... the idea of Kofi, Ziggler, and Swagger putting on a match that's as bad as you guys are saying? Unthinkable. I need to go into my bat-cave and re-evaluate my world-view now.

The match itself wasn't.. "bad" but the ending was just weird. Personally not to my liking. It may depend on how you see it, once you see it.

I still maintain JoMo vs. Sheamus was the match of the night, by WWE standards. At least between that and the TLC World title match. There was maybe one big spot but all the little spots made it entertaining too, crowd was into it and it overall just felt fresh.

I just don't know why Cena/Barrett was the main-event, show could've ended with a title match and the babyface winning(Edge), so I told myself something big was about to go down at the end... and then we get that stack of chairs spot which is a nice sign of closure, I guess? Meh, decent stuff but didn't seem all that much to me to end the show. Maybe cause it was the "main storyline" or something.

[20LEgend]

WC, I don't think the outburst of angry swearing help people know you're a grown man, I understand why you'd get annoyed by it but there is better ways of going about it that going crazy when someone annoys you or disagrees with you. You are the one paying so you have the high ground, you should have used that to make them look bad. :)

TBH If I wanted to watch a WWE PPV I don't think I could bring myself to buy it just through the philosophy of, 'other people steal it with no consequences why should I pay?' Which is why I threaten to report someone who tried to get Football Manager 2011 illegally when I'd paid, :p they are actually buying it now!

[ampulator]

WC, I don't think the outburst of angry swearing help people know you're a grown man, I understand why you'd get annoyed by it but there is better ways of going about it that going crazy when someone annoys you or disagrees with you. You are the one paying so you have the high ground, you should have used that to make them look bad. :)

TBH If I wanted to watch a WWE PPV I don't think I could bring myself to buy it just through the philosophy of, 'other people steal it with no consequences why should I pay?' Which is why I threaten to report someone who tried to get Football Manager 2011 illegally when I'd paid, :p they are actually buying it now!
It isn't so much that, as much as how naive he sounds when he tells people these things. Just because he doesn't do it, and he doesn't think other people should it, doesn't mean other people don't do it, and even more importantly, it doesn't mean they think they shouldn't do it.

Some people don't feel bad, even JUSTIFIED, in what they do. Why does this happen in the first place? If everyone was an opportunist, then the person doing the original theft wouldn't even bother sharing (as it it would be in the case in real life). Why would they bother sharing it then? Someone must have bought the PPV, then shared it live stream. Why go through all that trouble if you are just a no-good opportunistic thief?

That's not me, though. I'm more of a bystander. I neitehr encourage nor discourage these practices. But he's just... naive. That's why people think he's a kid. He should know by now that people know what they are doing.

But again, like I said before, stealing this isn't the same as stealing in real life. The benefactors and victims, and the overall impact is different.

[Linsolv]

I have a closely related question for everyone which will temporarily venture into ROH territory for the sake of discussion.

Now, I think we've seen pretty much everyone's opinion on pirating, so I've been trying to avoid instigating another huge fight over it, which was hard because I love to answer every comment.

But my question is this: Over the past year or so, a YouTube channel called rohbrazil was uploading the ROH material that showed on HDNet. Recently (mid-October), HDNet came to them and requested that they take down their material, and not put any more up, which rohbrazil complied with.

Now, considering that HDNet is only available in the US, and only to certain cable networks, do you think HDNet made the right decision to close down this channel?

(For instance I know I can't get HDNet. Can't even pay extra for it, my cable provider has refused to deal with HDNet.)

[TheKenwyne]

I have a closely related question for everyone which will temporarily venture into ROH territory for the sake of discussion.

Now, I think we've seen pretty much everyone's opinion on pirating, so I've been trying to avoid instigating another huge fight over it, which was hard because I love to answer every comment.

But my question is this: Over the past year or so, a YouTube channel called rohbrazil was uploading the ROH material that showed on HDNet. Recently (mid-October), HDNet came to them and requested that they take down their material, and not put any more up, which rohbrazil complied with.

Now, considering that HDNet is only available in the US, and only to certain cable networks, do you think HDNet made the right decision to close down this channel?

(For instance I know I can't get HDNet. Can't even pay extra for it, my cable provider has refused to deal with HDNet.)

I think this is a very silly decision personally. I don't pay stupid amounts of money every month for Sky in the UK, but can still watch 'E programming on youtube when the mood takes me. Ditto TNA. The NWA's new TV show isn't televised over here, and they let anyone who wants it have it for free on their website. If HDNet are paranoid about losing paying customers, put the video on ROH's website and region limit it so it can only be watched by visitors outside the US. As it is a lot of the world is deprived of some of the best wrestling action on TV every week, and this is a sad thing.

[SeanMcFly]

Also, I apologize for being acting like a jerk about all of this, but pirates/people who don't pay for things piss me off to no end. What if somebody bought a candy and they didn't like the taste of it, does that give them a right to go and get there money back, even if there was nothing wrong with the candy?

Shiver me timbers. :D

The entire pay per view was solid even the womens match in my opinion.

Thank you! I actually thought the PPV was pretty good. I didn't like the finish to Kofi / Ziggler / Swagger was very good, they should've done it differently, but I mean it preserves Ziggler's 'Persona'. Morrison sold the match with Sheamus real well, and That last spot before the PPV ended with Cena dropping the set on Barrett surprised me, did not see it coming. And usually, I see what's coming in the WWE.

It's gotten miles better in the past few weeks than it has in the past year.

[MrOnu]

I'm glad you guys enjoyed the show. I didn't watch because I didn't find the card interesting enough and I usually have pretty low standards for an internet wrestling fan. Too much gimmick matchs in one night for my tastes and not enough hopes for a turning point in the storylines.

And now the big question is : will John Morrison drop the ball ? With a very minor question : what's left to do with Nexus now that Cena destroyed them ?

[Wrestling Century]

I'm glad you guys enjoyed the show. I didn't watch because I didn't find the card interesting enough and I usually have pretty low standards for an internet wrestling fan. Too much gimmick matchs in one night for my tastes and not enough hopes for a turning point in the storylines.

And now the big question is : will John Morrison drop the ball ? With a very minor question : what's left to do with Nexus now that Cena destroyed them ?

To answer your first question, I doubt that he will drop the ball. I haven't ever liked him or his matches up until this year. While he still does need to develop his character more IMO, he definately has that Main Event feel to his matches. Also, his matches are getting quite good. He is ready for the top. For your second question, that's the same thing that I'm wondering. I hope that they don't fade away into the background.

[angeldelayette]

The crowd at Raw last night was great, IMO. Especially during the Vickie Guerrero segment where she was basically booed out of the building.

[Hashasheen]

Now, considering that HDNet is only available in the US, and only to certain cable networks, do you think HDNet made the right decision to close down this channel?

Like TheKenwyne, they should have just limited it to be watched by people outside the USA, which is where they can only show it on television. Since ROHbrazil went down, I can't watch ROH at all. And while I was drawn into it by Final Countdown's Dynasty, Many of the guys in that Dynasty and were real-life ROH originals are in TNA and WWE for now. So I miss out, but I can easily forget about ROH and move on if I can't get an easily provided source of it.

[Linsolv]

Like I said, I can't get HDNet. My cable provider does not offer it. I managed to catch a whole episode before we changed providers, ironically to a bigger provider, only to discover that HDNet isn't on Bright House, you can't get it. So I started watching on rohbrazil. Then that's down. So now I don't watch ROH. Wheeee, brand strength diminishing...

[dvdWarrior]

Like I said, I can't get HDNet. My cable provider does not offer it. I managed to catch a whole episode before we changed providers, ironically to a bigger provider, only to discover that HDNet isn't on Bright House, you can't get it. So I started watching on rohbrazil. Then that's down. So now I don't watch ROH. Wheeee, brand strength diminishing...

In my opinion, the HDNet show was ROH-lite anyway... it just wasn't the same (performance-wise or atmosphere-wise) as their regular shows. Not that that helps or anything, just mentioning it.

I can't get HDNet either. I love ROH, and I've only seen a couple of episodes myself.

:(

[Hyde Hill]

Like I said, I can't get HDNet. My cable provider does not offer it. I managed to catch a whole episode before we changed providers, ironically to a bigger provider, only to discover that HDNet isn't on Bright House, you can't get it. So I started watching on rohbrazil. Then that's down. So now I don't watch ROH. Wheeee, brand strength diminishing...

There are other way's then youtube to get the shows though if there is no legal avenue open to yourself. As ThOR knows where to RENT them;).

[dvdWarrior]

If you wanted to see the HDNet shows badly enough, there's some Best-Of DVDs available at ROH's website.

:)

[Linsolv]

I just like keeping up with storylines. To be honest, even though I like the in-ring action, I don't care as much about it as the stuff that's going on with mics in hands. ROH has better characters that I care about more, and when I do get in-ring action it's usually for a reason, so I like their show better than WWE's shows most of the time.

Of course, I could easily *censored* the HDNet show, but that would be murder for my seeding ratio...

[PoisonedSuperman]

Well HDnet can't force cable/satelite customers to call and clamor about not being able to watch ROH if they can just flip on the tv and watch i t. I"m sure if it was in more households then they would have less of a problem with people youtubing it.

[ZMAN]

I was very impressed by one of the 2010 summer ROH shows that I acquired online. I'm only a casual fan, but to me HDNet ROH is so much easier to follow than the tapes they used to put out back in the day. I remember those things used to drag on and feel like forever, I actually got bored with wrestling half way through them. The current ROH is the shiz tho, would like to see them grow a bit and compete with WWE. Not how TNA is with going to Monday and snatching up everyone who gets fired, but just offering something different to watch.

[Slagaholic]

ROH would have to grow by alot more than a bit to compete with WWE. TNA is a lot bigger than ROH and they aren't really competing with WWE, they just act like they are.

[jwt13]

yea ROH is just an Indy company so they wont compete with WWE

[Self]

... and that's nothing against ROH. WWE is a global entertainment empire the likes the wrestling business has never seen. ROH and TNA are both perfectly acceptable wrestling promotions, quaking under the ridiculous bulk of the WWE.

[The Final Countdown]

ROH would have to grow by alot more than a bit to compete with WWE. TNA is a lot bigger than ROH and they aren't really competing with WWE, they just act like they are.
Correct. Unlike TNA, ROH doesn't seem to have any delusions of competing with WWE. They're a niche product, and seem perfectly fine with that. I think there's plenty of potential for growth, but ROH will never be in direct competition with WWE, nor should they want to be. Nothing wrong with being "the alternative."

[ThriceP86]

Not trying to downplay ROH but since this is the WWE discussion thread I'd like to point out that Punk attacking Cena on Monday was awesome!

Even though he didn't have a really good reason, it still made me mark out like crazy! Punk should totally shoot on Cena next week.

[jwt13]

Not trying to downplay ROH but since this is the WWE discussion thread I'd like to point out that Punk attacking Cena on Monday was awesome!

Even though he didn't have a really good reason, it still made me mark out like crazy! Punk should totally shoot on Cena next week.

Cena spilt Punks soda thats perfect reason:p

[Teh_Showtime]

the revenge promo from the Slammy's?

[TakerNGN74]

Not trying to downplay ROH but since this is the WWE discussion thread I'd like to point out that Punk attacking Cena on Monday was awesome!

Even though he didn't have a really good reason, it still made me mark out like crazy! Punk should totally shoot on Cena next week.

It was awesome hopefully this will push Punk into WWE Title Contention even though he has already been a multiple time World Champion I think it would be great if this feud led him to greater things such as the WWE Title.

[jwt13]

It was awesome hopefully this will push Punk into WWE Title Contention even though he has already been a multiple time World Champion I think it would be great if this feud led him to greater things such as the WWE Title.

IMO even when he was World Champion he wasn't treated as a main eventer

[Teh_Showtime]

Him vs Jeff vs Morrison on SD was pure win every week imo

good wrestling guarenteed

[TakerNGN74]

IMO even when he was World Champion he wasn't treated as a main eventer

Sadly I have to agree with this in TEW terms he was probably an upper midcarder but not a main eventer.

[lazorbeak]

In TEW terms, not every main eventer needs to be main eventing every show. And besides, during his feud with Hardy, he was in the final match on several PPVs and went over on several of them. No question but that he is/was a main eventer in TEW terms.


I mean, doesn't Lobster Warrior start off a main eventer despite being the #5 face in the promotion in SWF (after Bruce, Money, Faith, and Frehley)? Ignoring the fact that WWE has a much larger roster and therefore would have even more main eventers, do you really think there were 4/5 guys ahead of Punk when he was champion last year and main eventing Summerslam?

[Linsolv]

Cena, Taker, Orton, Edge(? Can't keep track of his disposition NOW, never mind a year ago, so I'm guessing), Trips but he's out on injury.

[TheKenwyne]

Cena, Taker, Orton, Edge(? Can't keep track of his disposition NOW, never mind a year ago, so I'm guessing), Trips but he's out on injury.

Edge was injured a year ago, so strike him off. Orton was still being booked as a heet. BUT you can add HBK and HHH wasn't injured then. So you still have four, I guess.

[Teh_Showtime]

Punk was the #1 heel on SD back then

that was when HHH and Orton were feuding on Raw and Edge was Hurt

Show and Jericho were Tag Champs or maybe Im going back too far>

[Linsolv]

Edge was injured a year ago, so strike him off. Orton was still being booked as a heet. BUT you can add HBK and HHH wasn't injured then. So you still have four, I guess.

Summerslam was when he said, so I went off that time period. Orton turned at WM, but Trips and HBK both left at the same time -- WM. Edge came back at Royal Rumble, meaning he was back for ALMOST the whole year.

Or... did you mean 2009? Cause that would injure my argument. I thought he meant "last summerslam." Silly me.

[TheKenwyne]

Summerslam was when he said, so I went off that time period. Orton turned at WM, but Trips and HBK both left at the same time -- WM. Edge came back at Royal Rumble, meaning he was back for ALMOST the whole year.

Or... did you mean 2009? Cause that would injure my argument. I thought he meant "last summerslam." Silly me.

He said when Punk was champ, so it's gotta be last year. I can see how the mistake was made though :)

[lazorbeak]

Cena, Taker, Orton, Edge(? Can't keep track of his disposition NOW, never mind a year ago, so I'm guessing), Trips but he's out on injury.

Four or five guys of the same disposition? Was that not clear from the sentences immediately around that paragraph?

Anyway, my point is there's no question that Punk was a main eventer last year. He's still a main eventer this year. Just because he hasn't been booked like the top guy in the company doesn't mean he's not a main eventer.

[Fantabulous]

Merry Christmas, Kaval. You're fired.

[Slagaholic]

Merry Christmas, Kaval. You're fired.

http://www.wwe.com/inside/news/kavalreleased

I wonder what he did...

[Bigpapa42]

Rumor that it was something to do with some tweets he posted, but not certain.

[LoNdOn]

Merry Christmas, Kaval. You're fired.

One of the few reasons I enjoy watching WWE gone. Good work WWE! Oh, while you're at it can you give Daniel Bryan the boot. God forbid someone I like should succeed.

[20LEgend]

I'm surprised by that, he was WWE's "2nd breakout superstar" or whatever NXT's tag line as, didn't really worl out :p. What next? TNA, PWG, ROH? I can't see him back in TNA, but I'd like it as it;s the only wrestling I even occasionally watch and thats only because I don't know many WWE guys and the TNA are mostly the guys I watched when I liked wrestling on its face value rather than what the web has turned it into!

[LoNdOn]

Some decisions WWE make really baffle me. Back when they released the likes of Shelton Benjamin, Carlito etc. I gave up and stopped watching completely.

[Bigpapa42]

PWI is reporting that is simply a "creative has nothing for you" issue again and the release was amicable.

If creative can't come up with anything for someone as talented and unique as Low Ki, they aren't very ****ing creative in the first place. Call them some different and more accurate. Seriously, Smackdown is hurting for talent and Low Ki clearly can put on a good TV match, yet there's nothing for him? You can't tell me combining Kaval with either Yoshi Tatsu or Zach Ryder woudn't be interesting.... There you go, I deserve to be part of WWE creative more than those idiots.

[The Final Countdown]

What next? TNA, PWG, ROH?
TNA's bloated as is--I don't see any benefit to signing him. I don't think he left ROH under the best circumstances, but with the change in booking regime, maybe a return would be possible. A mixture of top-level US indies like ROH and PWG, plus Japan seems like his best option.

[Self]

Some decisions WWE make really baffle me. Back when they released the likes of Shelton Benjamin, Carlito etc. I gave up and stopped watching completely.

Well... Shelton and Carlito had both been around for years, and WWE had tried to push them multiple times, and it had never quite worked. They likely got several raises over the years, and with rumours of laziness abound, I think it's perfectly acceptable to cut their losses with those two. Kaval, on the other hand, they didn't even try with.

Sucks for him not to be making the big bucks, but for purely selfish reasons I'll be stoked if I can see him mixing it up in PWG or DG-USA.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I know Kennedy being released took a real toll on me. Took a serious investment in liking the guy.

If I had watched SD! more often, this would be around the same level. Still sucks though.

[Candyman]

If it cost money and you don't pay it is stealing...period...exclamation point!

Can we justify stealing an over priced wasdte of 3 hours? Yeah, but so can Hitler eradicating all those nice Jewish folks. If you do not want to pay for it because it cost too much then don't but do not try to say stealing it is ok because Vince is rich. Last time I checked stealing was a crime no matter how much money the victim has.

If you had any desire to maintain credibility in this discussion, you threw that out the window with the bolded part here. Not only is that a offensive comparison to make, it's also completely baseless and irrelevant. Not only because of the scope of the crime, but because they are two completely different crime. But, while that's the dumbest part of this post, it's not the only dumb thing.

Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you. Watching something without paying for it? Who am I taking it from? The WWE? Are you telling me they don't own the PPV anymore because I didn't pay for it? Does anybody else not get to watch it because I didn't pay for it? Who am I taking it from? Pirating...IS...NOT...STEALING. Period. That's why they have a different word for it.

[MrCanada]

You two sicken me. It's jerks like you two who make the PPV prices go up, so people like us who pay for it and watch it legally have to pay more money. Thanks a lot. Plus, you two are basically ripping off the WWE and the pro wrestlers, who are PROVIDING the entertainment that you are stealing. Jerks.

WHOA!

Just caught this now. Bit of an overreaction.

The only reason I watched it online is because I felt the PPV was going to suck and had it on sort of in the background as I was doing some stuff for work. And I was right. It was a crappy PPV (IMO) that I had zero intention of ordering and having a friend send me a link why not watch. Kind of like someone robbing a bank then offering you 50 bucks. I'd take it, and so would most people.

I do however completely agree it is 100% stealing and I 100% stole in that sense. But too many people get holier than thou when it comes to such things. Never download a song? a movie? video game? get software from a friend? take a pen from work? It's all stealing and everyone in the world basically does it who doesnt have the money to toss around at petty things.

I very much look at wrestling PPV's the same way I look at downloading music (and its a good comparison to me.) Now a CD is what, 15 songs lets say? Now most bands have 1, maybe 2 songs I'll ever want to listen to consistently more then once. To me, that's not earning $20-25. Really, 10 bucks a song? and I don't care about album art or stuff like that so it is literally just the song. Even the CD I will throw away at some point (after copying the music to my computer). So they didnt earn their money IMO. However, if I go out and download a CD (or listen to samples) and realize more then 8 minutes of the CD is decent I'd then go out and buy it. (granted iTunes has changed this somewhat).

Wrestling is the same way, a PPV has what, 8-9 matches/segments? Now if only 1 of those things really interest me, should I have to pay $55 bucks for that one thing? Now sure, I may get lucky and end up liking more, but thats the gamble. And I'd rather have the odds in my favour. The only difference is I cant see a sample of each match to know if its worth my time. So you have to judge the book by it's cover. You mention WWE PROVIDING me with entertainment, well what if I pay my $55 and then am not entertained? Did WWE steal from me? Wrestling PPV's (and MMA for that matter) are like big gambles, and I've never been one to bet when I know there's a good chance I might lose. So I look at the odds of me being entertained in advance and order/don't order based on that. And I'm usually right in my assumptions.

Why must I have an undying loyalty in ordering WWE PPV's that I hope entertain me but 50-75% of the time dont, but WWE has no loyalty to me it seems? The only way to make WWE care about me is to not order. But not to watch is a little different. I ended up turning the PPV off before Cena/Barrett went on out of bordom. Now had I ordered, WWE would count their cash and thing "look how good we did".

Don't get me wrong, I buy PPV's too, when they interest me on the whole, but WWE sometimes doesn't do the best job at that. I know I'm kind of rambling (tired) but had TLC been a good PPV that would of guaranteed I ordered the next one to "make up" for it anyway. Thinking of it, wouldn't that be a brilliant move by WWE? Some sort of "order one get one free" or loyalty system? but they'd never do that. They might have to be consistently entertaining and in recent years they have shown no true effort to be that for a 23 year old guy.

[Wrestling Century]

Merry Christmas, Kaval. You're fired.

What the hell? You've got to be kidding me! :eek: Why did they release him? He's one of my favorite wrestlers.

[BHK1978]

Stealing is taking something that does not belong to you. Watching something without paying for it? Who am I taking it from? The WWE? Are you telling me they don't own the PPV anymore because I didn't pay for it? Does anybody else not get to watch it because I didn't pay for it? Who am I taking it from? Pirating...IS...NOT...STEALING. Period. That's why they have a different word for it.

From Webster's Dictionary:

: 1. an act of robbery on the high seas; also : an act resembling such robbery
2: robbery on the high seas
3a : the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright

b : the illicit accessing of broadcast signals.

Seems like it is stealing to me...

Anyway, I was sad to see Kaval go. That being said I never felt he fit into the WWF (still refusing to call it WWE). In fact I was shocked when I heard he was signed to wrestle for them in the first place.

[TakerNGN74]

Yeah to be honest I wasn't shocked about his release but according to some reports they didn't have anything left for him to do which is retarded.

[moon_lit_tears]

You two sicken me. It's jerks like you two who make the PPV prices go up, so people like us who pay for it and watch it legally have to pay more money. Thanks a lot. Plus, you two are basically ripping off the WWE and the pro wrestlers, who are PROVIDING the entertainment that you are stealing. Jerks.

I seldom watch anymore, but occasionally iwill catch a PPV. I agree it's wrong to watch and not pay, but it's not what drives the prices up. Prices go up out of greed. Is $50 bucks a bit much for a PPV? Yes.

They make a lot of money on ticket/concession sales. I've read that Wrestlemania tickets have gone for a few grand. Is it worth it? Not to me.

Really the fact is even if people watched it without stealing it the prices would be what they Are now.

[jbergey_2005]

WHOA!

Just caught this now. Bit of an overreaction.



At the end of the day Vince McMahon probably isnt going to get to riled up about a person watching a PPV for free but if he could get his hands on the person giving out the free live stream hed probably try and take that person down.

Just dont be the one sending out the free link and Im sure your sin is forgiven:)

[Hashasheen]

Some decisions WWE make really baffle me. Back when they released the likes of Shelton Benjamin, Carlito etc. I gave up and stopped watching completely.

Carlito had drug issues and refusing to clean up. Shelton just couldn't do anything with the pushes they gave him.

[Genadi]

Carlito had drug issues and refusing to clean up. Shelton just couldn't do anything with the pushes they gave him.

Carlito had/has attitude problems, something WWE frowns upon more than drug issues if history has shown us anything.

[Hashasheen]

Carlito had/has attitude problems, something WWE frowns upon more than drug issues if history has shown us anything.

True.

[LoNdOn]

Carlito had drug issues and refusing to clean up. Shelton just couldn't do anything with the pushes they gave him.

Still, I was sad to see them go.

[dvdWarrior]

Just found this little tidbit over at NoDQ.com...

The latest on Kaval's WWE release was that it was more his decision than WWE's.

Kaval wanted to be released from his contract because the company had no plans for him, as demonstrated by the way he was squashed on SmackDown this past week.

At this point, WWE is now more or less granting releases to whoever asks for them and not attempting to keep talent as much as they did last year. Last year, WWE didn't want people jumping to TNA, while right now they don't see them as serious competition.

[ZMAN]

LOL@the internet @ jumping 2 conclusions omgwwesatan. Even wrestlers are automatically jumping to the conclusion that WWE are the dicks.

[TakerNGN74]

I got the History of the WWE Championship Book for Christmas and it looks amazing as far as what is inside it. It starts with Buddy Rogers and ends with Sheamus. It looks very interesting and I can't wait to delve into it. When I first got the book I couldn't help but read the chapter about the Montreal Screwjob still so many years after it happened reading different takes on it intrigues me. It was written by a guy named Kevin Sullivan (Not the Wrestler).

[Huntman]

I just wanted to let everyone know that today is the 4th time Hornswoggle has been Superstar of the Day.

[Slagaholic]

LOL@the internet @ jumping 2 conclusions omgwwesatan. Even wrestlers are automatically jumping to the conclusion that WWE are the dicks.

Wouldn't that tell you that more often than not WWE are dicks? You always assume the promoter is a dick when a well behaved wrestler is fired. Because that's usually the case.

[Genadi]

I'd heard about this incident a few times but didn't know there was footage of it around. Stumbled upon it while researching for the 1987 mod. The guy who rings in is Barry Orton, Bob Orton Jr's brother and Randy Orton's nephew. Not the nicest subject but I thought it an interesting vid.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kM8_xVyPZU

[Jaysin]

I'd heard about this incident a few times but didn't know there was footage of it around. Stumbled upon it while researching for the 1987 mod. The guy who rings in is Barry Orton, Bob Orton Jr's brother and Randy Orton's uncle. Not the nicest subject but I thought it an interesting vid.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kM8_xVyPZU

Fixed that for ya :P
Watching it now out of sheer boredom. The Orton family doesn't interest me at all, but oh well. :p

I love when Barry O mentions cliques in wrestling and Vince shakes his head like it doesn't happen...I'm 99% sure every wrestling autobiography talks about the politics and cliques backstage

[The Celt]

Notes on RAW so far:

MIZ GIRL OWNES CENA

Diet Pepsi WILL BE AVENGED

YOU'RE NOT FUNNY CENA

CM Punk's good friend: Dave Batista

DiBaise Status: Jobbed

It's Santito's ****(Cobra) in a box

Twin Cobras!

DDDDDDDDDUUUUUUUUUUH

Edit:

;_; JoMo isn't even getting a title shot at RR

:D Tyson Kidd can cut a promo! Also possible Kidd/Bryan feud in the works!

Edit Dos:

Worst.Bodyguard.ever.

:( when Kidd promises to be US champion in 2011 to then only be squashed by Mark Henry in 3 minutes, then also have his bodyguard squashed.

[RingofHonorGuard]

Okay, seriously... Seriously... The Miz, for as much flack as I've given him over the years... He just cut the absolute greatest promo I've witnessed in some time. I was in near tears laughing at that skit. He can definitely control a crowd well on the mic. I'm impressed.

[The Celt]

Further Notes:

Miz=HEAT MAGNET

Jerry Lawler: The 2010 Christmas Miracle

Edit:

Punk builds the Dungeon of Doom/Plot to end Hulkamania/The Anti-Cenation?

Alica has gone Rihanna.

Edit Dos:

Daniel Bryan/Ryder get a third of the time the divas get

Mind of a Madman: Miz

Yet another edit:

Sheamus continues to be the Mike Awesome that never was (I mean that in a kind way)

That Edit:

http://boards.420chan.org/wooo/src/1293509788437.jpg

[TakerNGN74]

I Thought Punk Joining the Nexus was the greatest thing to happen on Raw in a very long time!

[Johnny Fenoli]

Anyone seen the Top 50 DVD yet? I know the list sucks, but is the DVD itself worth buying??

[djthefunkchris]

Melina vs. Neidhart looks to be interesting.

I heard Trish say she would love to come back to do some work with her (Neidhart). Won't come back unless there is a compelling storyline to it though.

[Trell]

I have to agree, I was very excited when I saw Punk pick up the arm band, I feel like the SES didnt get the push they should have so I think him joining nexus will help them where barret isnt in it anymore, they have someone who can do the talking for them like barret was doing before hand.

[Genadi]

Fixed that for ya :P
Watching it now out of sheer boredom. The Orton family doesn't interest me at all, but oh well. :p

I love when Barry O mentions cliques in wrestling and Vince shakes his head like it doesn't happen...I'm 99% sure every wrestling autobiography talks about the politics and cliques backstage

Thanks for fix, need to re-read my posts I do stuff like that so often :p

Yeah I know Vince is cringe worthy, I can't believe he still does PR they should ban him from any interviews.

[BHK1978]

I also love how Vince always tries to paint himself as the victim in every negative interview he does. It is almost like these people are trying to attack him and his family business for no good reason.

[Hive]

I'd heard about this incident a few times but didn't know there was footage of it around. Stumbled upon it while researching for the 1987 mod. The guy who rings in is Barry Orton, Bob Orton Jr's brother and Randy Orton's nephew. Not the nicest subject but I thought it an interesting vid.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kM8_xVyPZU

I loved the part when Vince called Bruno Sammartino on hating him because he fired his son. Not that I'm taking Vince's side here, but Bruno wasn't exactly the most objective choice to bring in as an expert...

[The Final Countdown]

The only thing more annoying than Cena repeatedly saying "CM Sucks" is my DVR cutting out before the show ends. Stupid Raw...why can't you end on time, like every other show I DVR?

[March]

Punk's micwork was great last night. Sadly, Cena's end of the conversation was so corny even by Cena standards.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Yall think Cena cut a promo like a 12 year old on purpose, to help identify with his core audience? That's the only thing I can think of with the "CM Sucks" comments...

[Linsolv]

Ironically, I like CM Punk a lot more than Cena. Like his look better; like his mic work better. Like his ring work better. Am I a slave to the IWC? Only time will tell.

[Teh_Showtime]

Im waiting for the entire nexus to get shaved bald :D

[Bigpapa42]

Rumor and possible spoilers.. Swipe...

Cena apparently suffered a leg injury at a house show. A cage match against Wade Barrett had to be stopped and he was taken away by the trainers. He apologized to fans as he was taken to the back, stating he would probably miss awhile.

[djthefunkchris]

Yall think Cena cut a promo like a 12 year old on purpose, to help identify with his core audience? That's the only thing I can think of with the "CM Sucks" comments...

I don't know. My first thought was that it didn't sound normal at all coming from him. That sounded more like old rapperboy Cena then Super Cena.

I really thought I was miss hearing him at first, lol.

[Johnny Fenoli]

I don't know. My first thought was that it didn't sound normal at all coming from him. That sounded more like old rapperboy Cena then Super Cena.

I really thought I was miss hearing him at first, lol.

One day he'll turn heel and become the white wanna be rapper again... and I shall shed a single tear, and give him a slow clap standing ovation.

[Candyman]

The interwebs are going nuts with rumors that Cena suffered a legit leg/knee injury at a house show tonight. It was a cage match against Wade Barrett that was ended abruptly, Cena was helped to the back, and apparently apologized to the crowd. He got hurt taking a Wasteland from Barrett.

Hopefully this turns out to be a sprain or something...it would really, really suck if he had to miss significant time right now.

[Jaysin]

There's a Straight Edge Society page on facebook and they posted this just now, it's amazing.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/hs035.snc6/166498_10150109559858523_329278678522_7399011_3405 620_n.jpg

[Teh_Showtime]

that is epic!

[Self]

Not fond of CM Punk taking over Nexus. I mean, I like Punk, but I've always felt putting an established star into Nexus would defeat the whole purpose of the group. It changes Nexus from a unique faction born of circumstance, to just-another-stable. It might end up being good, a continuation of the Straight Edge Society, but it's not special to me.

[lazorbeak]

Not fond of CM Punk taking over Nexus. I mean, I like Punk, but I've always felt putting an established star into Nexus would defeat the whole purpose of the group. It changes Nexus from a unique faction born of circumstance, to just-another-stable. It might end up being good, a continuation of the Straight Edge Society, but it's not special to me.

The stable as it had existed had run its course. Cena made the heroic comeback, he got Barrett by himself, and he dropped a bunch of chairs on him. Nexus wasn't going to be a "unique faction" without Barrett, without him it's the Spirit Squad without the McMahons: a bunch of green guys who either need gimmick replacement surgery or a spell in development. This breathes new life into an angle that was otherwise dead.

And that's an awesome image.

[Bigpapa42]

The interwebs are going nuts with rumors that Cena suffered a legit leg/knee injury at a house show tonight. It was a cage match against Wade Barrett that was ended abruptly, Cena was helped to the back, and apparently apologized to the crowd. He got hurt taking a Wasteland from Barrett.

Hopefully this turns out to be a sprain or something...it would really, really suck if he had to miss significant time right now.

Yeah, I mentioned it a few posts above, but I made it swipe to read, just in case it was a work or something.

Apparently this is a vid of his speech:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTcq-K1Rglo&feature=player_embedded

[MrOnu]

Not fond of CM Punk taking over Nexus. I mean, I like Punk, but I've always felt putting an established star into Nexus would defeat the whole purpose of the group. It changes Nexus from a unique faction born of circumstance, to just-another-stable. It might end up being good, a continuation of the Straight Edge Society, but it's not special to me.

I think Nexus stopped being different months ago when they put away any kind of motivations behind their actions. At first, they had something against the current powers in place then it moved to being only a groupe of young heels going against the top face for no special reason.

[Hyde Hill]

Rumours going about that Kong has signed with the company. If true hope they use her well and it could really help the divas division. Kong, Beth, Nattie, Melina and Gail could do something with that.

[Bigpapa42]

Rumours going about that Kong has signed with the company. If true hope they use her well and it could really help the divas division. Kong, Beth, Nattie, Melina and Gail could do something with that.

She apparently posted something on Twitter about "getting her dream job... Yeah, that dream". Seems to be where the rumors are stemming from.

[b0shey]

If its true i seriously didnt expect that.. Kong isnt exactly the typical WWE diva.
but i really hope that WWE is going away from the bimbo divas to actual women that can wrestle.

Now if WWE only signed Rain, Jennifer Blake and Cheerleader Melissa

[MrCanada]

well as far as North American female workers, Kong is obviously in the top as far as ability. And whether people who are indyrific crazy admit it or not, Nattie and Beth are also amazing workers..

Just imagine the ultimate (TALENT BASED) female division in WWE:

Nattie Neidhart
Sarah Stock
Amazing Kong
Beth Phoenix
Cheerleader Melissa
Mercedes Martinez
Sara Del Rey
Daizee Haze
Victoria
Mickie James
Gail Kim
Michelle McCool
Velvet Sky (as a referee who constantly goes in and out of the ring..... She cant wrestle though)

Now that I could watch.

[The Final Countdown]

well as far as North American female workers, Kong is obviously in the top as far as ability. And whether people who are indyrific crazy admit it or not, Nattie and Beth are also amazing workers.
I think most of the "indyrific crazy" people would agree with you. I certainly do. Not their fault that they don't get much of a chance to showcase themselves in the current WWE climate.

If WWE really has signed Kong--I'm pleasantly surprised. She seems to be pretty much the antithesis of what they normally look for in a "Diva". I'm not sure how it will turn out, but I am intrigued.

[Hyde Hill]

WTF is McCool doing in that list?

[masterded]

WTF is McCool doing in that list?

You can't fire Takers wife?

[Hyde Hill]

You can't fire Takers wife?

It was talent based not politics based wasn't it? At least put that after the name. EG can't fire her unfortunately because of Taker.

[masterded]

It was talent based not politics based wasn't it? At least put that after the name. EG can't fire her unfortunately because of Taker.

Maybe she has another talent; lets just say garden hose and golf ball.

[cappyboy]

It was talent based not politics based wasn't it? At least put that after the name. EG can't fire her unfortunately because of Taker.

But you notice where she was on that list. Probably about where she would be if the booking could somehow be based totally on merit. Pipe dream for either gender in the E in the grand scheme of things. Still you gotta have someone who can polish all the new people's reputations for the E's audience. That even more so than the Taker thing is why you'd need Michelle. She might not be on everyone else's level. But it would take time for an E audience to catch on to that. They'd see it backwards. Like the new women weren't at McCool's level until given time to appreciate otherwise. As long as that's the case, you need her.

AND THEN there's the Taker thing on top of that.

[lazorbeak]

Also the part where she's improved a great deal and has the athleticism and drive to hang with some of the top talents. Honestly from the vitriol from Hyde you'd think she was the second coming of Mongo McMichael, instead of a solid worker who has improved tremendously.

But where's Melina on that list?

[Hyde Hill]

Also the part where she's improved a great deal and has the athleticism and drive to hang with some of the top talents. Honestly from the vitriol from Hyde you'd think she was the second coming of Mongo McMichael, instead of a solid worker who has improved tremendously.

But where's Melina on that list?

Improving from crap to less crap is not a great improvement imho. Athleticism? WTF she is like a walking piece of cardboard imho. Still personal opinion.

[LoNdOn]

Improving from crap to less crap is not a great improvement imho. Athleticism? WTF she is like a walking piece of cardboard imho. Still personal opinion.

I have to say that I feel Michelle gets a lot more flack than she deserves, she is better than most give her credit for IMO.

[lazorbeak]

Improving from crap to less crap is not a great improvement imho. Athleticism? WTF she is like a walking piece of cardboard imho. Still personal opinion.

That's just your biased personal opinion. I realize PWI isn't completely objective but she did win female superstar of the year this year and is probably the top active heel in women's wrestling right now, period. I mean who else is even close? Tara? Madison Rayne?

Also I'm not sure if you just don't know what athleticism is or what. Do you make this same complaint when watching any sport with female athletes? Is gold medalist Kerri Walsh unathletic just because she's tall, thin and fit? Grand Slam winner Maria Sharapova?

[Self]

I have absolutely no problems with Michelle's in-work (even the moves 'stolen' from that bloke in TNA) it's her personality that bugs me. Not someone I'd want to be trapped in an elevator with.

[ampulator]

I have to say that I feel Michelle gets a lot more flack than she deserves, she is better than most give her credit for IMO.
She is still better than she is before... in fact, much better than before. But she still is very, very, very bad. Not Kelly-Kelly bad, but still very bad.

In fact, I'm more surprised how much better Layla has gotten. She's doing most of the ringwork, too. Color me shocked.

That's just your biased personal opinion. I realize PWI isn't completely objective but she did win female superstar of the year this year and is probably the top active heel in women's wrestling right now, period. I mean who else is even close? Tara? Madison Rayne?

Also I'm not sure if you just don't know what athleticism is or what. Do you make this same complaint when watching any sport with female athletes? Is gold medalist Kerri Walsh unathletic just because she's tall, thin and fit? Grand Slam winner Maria Sharapova?

Here's the thing with her. Her ring-work, while bad, isn't the worst anyone have ever seen, even in the WWE (Jackie Gayda, anyone?). However, her mic work and her... I don't how to put this, except in TEW terms, "Acting", has gotten a lot better. For the WWE, that's more than good enough, and for their product and fo her card level, I'd say she's doing fine. It's not like they are making her do main event work, which I would expect A LOT more. She's in the middle card, and having Nattie or Beth carry the matches. That's fine with me.

Her problem is mainly her lack of durability. It's not really her fault... Genetics is a.. well, you know. I think this is why Layla does most of the wrestling (who, by the way, was actually worse than Michelle starting this year, but a lot better than her in terms of ringwork now).

[LoNdOn]

She is still better than she is before... in fact, much better than before. But she still is very, very, very bad. Not Kelly-Kelly bad, but still very bad.

In fact, I'm more surprised how much better Layla has gotten. She's doing most of the ringwork, too. Color me shocked.



This is something I strongly agree with. Layla has come along in leaps and bounds and I don't mind watching her go against the likes of Natalya and Phoenix.

I'm not saying Michelle McCool is a master of technicality but all things taken into account I don't think she is that bad. I would still much rather watch a Lacey/Daizee Haze match but there you go.

[SaySo]

I have to say that I feel Michelle gets a lot more flack than she deserves, she is better than most give her credit for IMO.

Yeah, she's deserving of the PWI number one spot in the top 50. If it was politics that got her that number one spot, what does that say for AJ Styles receiving the male version?

[The Final Countdown]

If it was politics that got her that number one spot, what does that say for AJ Styles receiving the male version?
Absolutely nothing.

[ampulator]

This is something I strongly agree with. Layla has come along in leaps and bounds and I don't mind watching her go against the likes of Natalya and Phoenix.

I'm not saying Michelle McCool is a master of technicality but all things taken into account I don't think she is that bad. I would still much rather watch a Lacey/Daizee Haze match but there you go.
I want to add that, while Athleticism is important, it is not the always an indicator on how good a person might get.

I think Kelly-Kelly is way more athletic than either Layla or McCool, but her ring work is just... bad. She STILL isn't able to bounce off the ring rope properly.

[Hyde Hill]

That's just your biased personal opinion. I realize PWI isn't completely objective but she did win female superstar of the year this year and is probably the top active heel in women's wrestling right now, period. I mean who else is even close? Tara? Madison Rayne?

Also I'm not sure if you just don't know what athleticism is or what. Do you make this same complaint when watching any sport with female athletes? Is gold medalist Kerri Walsh unathletic just because she's tall, thin and fit? Grand Slam winner Maria Sharapova?

Depends on how you define athletic. I look at flexibility and smoothness of movement. She has neither and it has nothing with being tall and thin and "fit". Rhaka Khan was more athletic then her. And no I would also have this opinion if I did not prefer TNA as you hinted at. I think Madison is also overpushed and Tara is past it.

[LoNdOn]

Depends on how you define athletic. I look at flexibility and smoothness of movement. She has neither and it has nothing with being tall and thin and "fit". Rhaka Khan was more athletic then her. And no I would also have this opinion if I did not prefer TNA as you hinted at. I think Madison is also overpushed and Tara is past it.

If Madison didn't sound like a poodle violating a set of bagpipes I wouldn't mind watching her wrestle because she is improving a lot.

[Hashasheen]

Yeah, she's deserving of the PWI number one spot in the top 50. If it was politics that got her that number one spot, what does that say for AJ Styles receiving the male version?

... You did not just compare AJ Styles to Michelle McCool.

If Madison didn't sound like a poodle violating a set of bagpipes I wouldn't mind watching her wrestle because she is improving a lot. Not enough to deserve three different Knockout reigns over the course of 2010.

[PeterHilton]

LOl women's wrestling....

"Man just imagine how AMAZING the women's division would be if they signed these wrestlers...overnight I'm sure several dozen people would care!!!"

[Teh_Showtime]

3 minute matches ftw

[b0shey]

I Hope WWE lets Amazing Kong keep her name and don't name her something stupid.

[ampulator]

Depends on how you define athletic. I look at flexibility and smoothness of movement. She has neither and it has nothing with being tall and thin and "fit". Rhaka Khan was more athletic then her. And no I would also have this opinion if I did not prefer TNA as you hinted at. I think Madison is also overpushed and Tara is past it.
Again, athleticism, but while it is important, it's not ultimate indicator. Kelly-Kelly is athletic, but she hasn't improved enough even in her basic fundamentals for the WWE to even begin to seriously push her. Not that they don't try, but she's that bad. It's also the same reason why they don't push Rosa Mendez that seriously.

Layla has surprised me, though. She has taken almost most of the the sharpshooters AND Beth-faceplants. She must like this job more than I think she does.

[Hyde Hill]

I didn't say that athleticism was that important. It was in response to lazor saying McCool was athletic. McCool is just horrible and didn't belong in that list without the note, still there because of Taker and to have an established name. Also didn't know the list was in order of talent.

[ThriceP86]

I really hope that Cena does not have a major injury. It would suck.

I will always say that I've never been a fan of him but especially now he needs to be around for the Nexus angle to keep going with Punk.

Then again, if that happens I'm sure WWE will quickly be able to write a new storyline for Nexus and Punk to work against some other top face... maybe Orton?

Just throwing that out.