The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Fantabulous]

Well I mean that's your personal assessment, I think the reality of the situation and his heel heat + the growing percentage of people who appreciate his work completely disagree with your assesme t that he's some Midgard mullet who the front office is pushing despite the fans wishes.

He connects with the crowd, so he can't be as complete useless as your trying to make out.

I never said anything about how the fans or anyone else are against the Miz getting pushed. I did mention that there are people who think highly of him but I said nothing about anyone else thinking of Miz negatively. I also never said he he was useless; in fact, I said, and maintain, he would make a great manager.

[PeterHilton]

I never said anything about how the fans or anyone else are against the Miz getting pushed. I did mention that there are people who think highly of him but I said nothing about anyone else thinking of Miz negatively. I also never said he he was useless; in fact, I said, and maintain, he would make a great manager.

Right. But hes already over as a heel wrestler.

There have been quite a few heels over the years that didn't look physically imposing that did just fine as main event caliber workers.

[Comradebot]

Just had a friend call and say another friend couldn't make the Smackdown! show tonight.

So...

I'm going now in his place. Go me.

[Fantabulous]

Right. But hes already over as a heel wrestler.

There have been quite a few heels over the years that didn't look physically imposing that did just fine as main event caliber workers.

I won't deny that he has a measure of overness. But I will be interested to see what happens when he isn't involved with Cena and Rock. Working an issue with those guys would get anyone more over because they're the ones making the issue. I'll be interested to see how people react when the Miz is the one being relied on to get the issue over.

[PeterHilton]

I won't deny that he has a measure of overness. But I will be interested to see what happens when he isn't involved with Cena and Rock. Working an issue with those guys would get anyone more over because they're the ones making the issue. I'll be interested to see how people react when the Miz is the one being relied on to get the issue over.

Seriously?

So you haven't noticed that he's been getting heat from the crowd for a solid year...pretty much since he came over to Raw...?

I think you just don't like the guy.

[ampulator]

Better him than Cena, if you ask me.

[PeterHilton]

Better him than Cena, if you ask me.

I think you just don't like the guy.

similarly...

[ampulator]

similarly...
Oh, I like Badass Cena, alright. But he just doesn't cut as a wholesome face. And his ringwork has devolved over time, without making up much in other areas, while a guy like Miz used to be really, really bad in the ring, but is no beter in the ring than Cena is. And with a much better gimmick and character to boot.

[PeterHilton]

Oh, I like Badass Cena, alright. But he just doesn't cut as a wholesome face. And his ringwork has devolved over time, without making up much in other areas, while a guy like Miz used to be really, really bad in the ring, but is no beter in the ring than Cena is. And with a much better gimmick and character to boot.

We've gone over this before :P

You don't like wholesome face Cena. And I admit the character has worn completely thin.

But he's still over with the majority of the audience.

And if the WWE wouldn't turn him when they had a golden opportunity like the Nexus story, I just don't see a time in the near future when they will.

[Fantabulous]

Seriously?

So you haven't noticed that he's been getting heat from the crowd for a solid year...pretty much since he came over to Raw...?

I think you just don't like the guy.
In Miz's time in the main event, he's been working against Orton, Cena and now Rock is involved. Miz has held up his end as far as getting heat but it's the other guys who make the issue over because they're the bigger star. I'm just interested in what happens when Miz is put in the position of being 'the star' of the main event program and he's working with someone lower on the ladder.

Again, so there can be no misinterpretation of my words, I am not saying Miz isn't over, because he is. I'm not saying that people are rejecting him in the spot he's in, because they aren't I just want to see what happens when Miz is carrying the ball as the centerpiece and someone else is the up-and-coming star working against him.

[crownsy]

In Miz's time in the main event, he's been working against Orton, Cena and now Rock is involved. Miz has held up his end as far as getting heat but it's the other guys who make the issue over because they're the bigger star. I'm just interested in what happens when Miz is put in the position of being 'the star' of the main event program and he's working with someone lower on the ladder.

Again, so there can be no misinterpretation of my words, I am not saying Miz isn't over, because he is. I'm not saying that people are rejecting him in the spot he's in, because they aren't I just want to see what happens when Miz is carrying the ball as the centerpiece and someone else is the up-and-coming star working against him.

That won't be for hears though, he's a heel. Faces carry programs for the most part. I like heels but people pay to see faces get over on heels ultimately

[ampulator]

In Miz's time in the main event, he's been working against Orton, Cena and now Rock is involved. Miz has held up his end as far as getting heat but it's the other guys who make the issue over because they're the bigger star. I'm just interested in what happens when Miz is put in the position of being 'the star' of the main event program and he's working with someone lower on the ladder.

Again, so there can be no misinterpretation of my words, I am not saying Miz isn't over, because he is. I'm not saying that people are rejecting him in the spot he's in, because they aren't I just want to see what happens when Miz is carrying the ball as the centerpiece and someone else is the up-and-coming star working against him.
They are move than he is, but he's ringwork is at least their level. I would even say his Psychology is better than Orton's or Cena's at this point.

[Hashasheen]

Who does entertain you in WWE?

CM Punk - most of the time, but this New Nexus thing has me souring on him.

Cody Rhodes - His Dashing gimmick really drew me in, and this feud with Rey seems to be looking pretty good.

Jack Swagger - He's decent if not good in the ring and he showed glimmers of being a great heel during his fun as champ. Might do better as a goofy face though.

Zack Ryder - Do I need to explain this?

Justin Gabriel - He's got a nice mix of aerial and ground skills and if he works on his promo skills, he'd be just fine.

Daniel Bryan - Epic in the ring, and I've seen some of his promos with Paul London. He's got a lot to offer.

Christian - Good on the mic and in the ring.

Sin Cara - Have you seen this guy in CMLL. Because you should. Like now.

[Astil]

So my roomates never seen or watched wrestling before saw me watching RAW. His reaction:

"Is that that Marine guy ... Oh hey the Miz!"

*Starts watching and talking about seeing Miz in some interview and liking him*

Just thought I'd share the story. I know it's a isolated incident, but Miz is making his rounds on TV shows and seems to be being groomed to be "the face" of the WWE. And people seem to be responding positively to it.

Which makes me happy, cuz I think it's a great character.

[Slagaholic]

I believe they are building The Miz a eventual face turn to make him a 'megastar.'

[Hive]

I love The Miz. He's got great charisma and is a natural heel that plays well to the crowd and has a love relationship with any microphone.

Sadly though, I grew up with wrestling in the 90's when main event wrestler = jacked up roid monster, and sad as it is I still have a bit of a hard time shaking that feeling. Funnily enough though, it's often the smaller guys that are the most interesting to me: Jericho, CM Punk, Morrison, Danielson and of course Miz himself has been some of the biggest highlights of WWE in recent years to me. But for them to work as the promotion's biggest and best wrestlers, you really have to present them in the right way. Cowardly heel works well for The Miz, for example. He obviously can't play the Superman Cena bit.

[ampulator]

I love The Miz. He's got great charisma and is a natural heel that plays well to the crowd and has a love relationship with any microphone.

Sadly though, I grew up with wrestling in the 90's when main event wrestler = jacked up roid monster, and sad as it is I still have a bit of a hard time shaking that feeling. Funnily enough though, it's often the smaller guys that are the most interesting to me: Jericho, CM Punk, Morrison, Danielson and of course Miz himself has been some of the biggest highlights of WWE in recent years to me. But for them to work as the promotion's biggest and best wrestlers, you really have to present them in the right way. Cowardly heel works well for The Miz, for example. He obviously can't play the Superman Cena bit.
That's the thing. WWE wanted a cowardly heel. They got one that works. Randy Orton and Sheamus just don't work as chickenffeed heels.

[Jaysin]

So the new season of NXT has a dumb(er) concept, but I want to watch just to hear Regal on commentary...

[jbergey_2005]

Id say Miz is a poor mans Roddy Piper.

[Jaysin]

Id say Miz is a poor mans Roddy Piper.

See, that's not fair, pretty much every modern wrestler is a poor man's Roddy Piper on the mic.

[jbergey_2005]

See, that's not fair, pretty much every modern wrestler is a poor man's Roddy Piper on the mic.

I was using it as a compliment though. Not too many entertainers I would even make that comparison too.

[LoNdOn]

I just saw the line-up of NXT..............utter crap. I have lost my faith in humanity. If you are giving people a second chance where is Percy Watson? why is Darren Young there if he is already on the RAW roster regardless of how regularly he appears. I assume they already have plans for Bateman or his injury means he can't go. Hornswoggle as a pro almost made me cry; I seriously hope Titus O'Neill eats him. There is a reason that these guys weren't voted to win! Byron Saxton is good.........don't give a furry rat's ass about the others.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I believe they are building The Miz a eventual face turn to make him a 'megastar.'

Yeah, I do tell myself when he turns face, he may be huge. And with a couple of changed factors, that's when I may start to like him. Right now, I'm not sure I can shake if off.

[juggaloninjalee]

If Miz turns face what will his gimmick be? Right now he has to cheat to win. He is a cowardly heel. What kind of face would he be? Underdog face?

[Jaysin]

People were starting to cheer him and Morrison when they made fun of people constantly. Miz could easily be a face.

[ampulator]

I was using it as a compliment though. Not too many entertainers I would even make that comparison too.
Except, if Miz applies, then so does Edge and Jericho.

[Jaysin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yM_cHRvzTYw

Been a fan of this band for awhile, but just noticed everyone's favorite Straight Edge wrestler in it.

Unless you like Josh Prohibition or Matt Cross more than CM Punk :p

[jbergey_2005]

Except, if Miz applies, then so does Edge and Jericho.

Only if they compare well to Piper. Jericho IMO doesnt compare well to Piper because Jericho is a better wrestler and a different kind of heel that is equally as good as Piper on the mic in his own way. I suppose Edge is a decent comparison and would probably say hes a poor mans Piper as well.

[PeterHilton]

If Miz turns face what will his gimmick be? Right now he has to cheat to win. He is a cowardly heel. What kind of face would he be? Underdog face?

People were starting to cheer him and Morrison when they made fun of people constantly. Miz could easily be a face.

I agree with most of that, but I think he could be a face pretty easily

I mean..if you followed along with Mike during his Reality TV days, he's not some actor or former athlete who saw wrestling as a career move. He LOVES pro wrestling. LOVES it.

You run some videos of him wearing ring gear as a kid ...the same way guys like Edge and Christian and Jericho did...a guy who literally fought his way into living his dream job...and you could get him over as a face. The fact that he has a catchphrase the crowd can follow along with makes it even easier.

Niz could have an epic run as a face. really, the only reason not to do it now is because they need him much more as a heel.

[Comradebot]

So, had quite the fun time at the Smackdown! taping last night.

Guess I'll put my thoughts in white to, you know, avoid spoiling it.



WARNING SPOILERS

My thoughts:
It was a decent show, though not the best I've ever seen from the WWE live.
Shelton Benjamin wrestled the dark match, beat Curt Hawkins in a decently watchable match. Good to see Shelton back in action.
Pretty confident already that the new NXT (Redemption!) season is designed as a means mainly to get Darren Young over. Yoshi Tatsu and Hornswoggle both make for goofy pros, so that'll be fun to look forward to... oh, and Kozlov. Woot. That said, it felt like a collection of guys who weren't interesting enough compared to their peers to get over the first time through.

After all the NXT shenanigans, we had a single match for Superstars... Chris Masters versus Tyler Reks. It went out for ten minutes, and just served to remind me that Chris Masters sucks. This very well may have been the longest match of the night, and I was just left wondering "why?".

The Corre rock, but the segment seemed... wonky. Well, segments. Which were basically the same two done twice in a row. Wonky.

JTG has officially reached jobber status, having been introduced with "and already in the ring!" status, before getting beat in roughly less than a minute. Crappy diva match that came later was more competitive than the spanking JTG recieved from Cody Rhodes. Might wanna drop the "Brooklyn, Brooklyn" music before folks start dubbing in "brawler".

Undertaker coming out to Johnny Cash looks and sounds legitimately badass.

And, the biggest and awesomest part of the night...

EDGE AND CHRISTIAN RE-UNITED!!!! They looked GREAT out there, and were easily the highlight of the night (other than the Taker/HHH face-off, perhaps). Was really awesome to get to see them as a tag team again, though the WWE should've gone all in with the nostalgia. I'll admit, I was a little sad they didn't both come running in from the crowd.

[liontamer]

I have to say the one thing that WWE does really well that WCW never did and TNA is too young to really do, is to keep their retired wrestlers relevant and use them to build to their biggest shows. Wasn't following the WWE at all until I saw the rock. Now add SCSA, JB and the return of HHH and undertaker (and to a lesser extent Christain) off the IR and I'm actually considering it. Also glad the truth got his other theme back, saw the new one once and it just didn't work.

[Hashasheen]

Former WWE Diva Jillian Hall has posted the following on Twitter: "So sad and traumatized but I am in labor at 14 weeks pregnant," she wrote. "Our baby's heart has stopped and is with God now...please pray for us."

WZ offers Jillian Hall and her family its deepest condolences and prayers during this difficult time.


:eek::(

[Comradebot]

Former WWE Diva Jillian Hall has posted the following on Twitter: "So sad and traumatized but I am in labor at 14 weeks pregnant," she wrote. "Our baby's heart has stopped and is with God now...please pray for us."

WZ offers Jillian Hall and her family its deepest condolences and prayers during this difficult time.


:(:(

[Linsolv]

Condolences to Jillian and her family. Rest in peace, little one.

[milamber]

Good push for Brodus Clay on SD. With a bit of work the guy could be huge.

[Tha Black Phenom]

C-Bot, I wanna know... how long did the show feel to you? And did you have quite a number of dark matches? Because SD! is being very Raw-recap heavy these days and I'm just wondering what the hell you guys were sitting through after all.

[lazorbeak]

Former WWE Diva Jillian Hall has posted the following on Twitter: "So sad and traumatized but I am in labor at 14 weeks pregnant," she wrote. "Our baby's heart has stopped and is with God now...please pray for us."


Wow, that's sad news. Not sure if it came up on this thread, but the same thing happened to Candice Michelle a couple weeks back.

[Jaysin]

I didn't watch Smackdown yet, but are they really acting like Triple H didn't already lose to Undertaker at Mania? It just seems that way.

[Moe Hunter]

When Undertaker says "18 other men have fallen" - they're blatantly ignoring

a) One of them is Triple H
b) two of them were Shawn Michaels

It's only 16 other men. This feud really sucks and just feels completely forced. If the "career on the line" stip comes in like the dirt sheets first guessed, it'll be out of nowhere and not make any sense. They've already agreed to the match, unlike HBK last year.

[Gabbo]

Well, there was 2 men at 19.

[Teh_Showtime]

Mark Henry and Syd count as 1.5 apiece?

[LoNdOn]

When Undertaker says "18 other men have fallen" - they're blatantly ignoring

a) One of them is Triple H
b) two of them were Shawn Michaels

It's only 16 other men. This feud really sucks and just feels completely forced. If the "career on the line" stip comes in like the dirt sheets first guessed, it'll be out of nowhere and not make any sense. They've already agreed to the match, unlike HBK last year.

I think you are forgetting about Kane as well....

[foolinc]

I think you are forgetting about Kane as well....

Kane's 2nd match was cancelled out by the Show/Albert handicap match.

[Hive]

If Triple H doesn't retire after the match, which he will obviously loose, they should have him mentor Sheamus... who is storyline-wise on a losing streak and needs to change his ways to move forward, slowly turn him face and finally give him the push he deserves. Triple H could occationally team up with Sheamus in this role, but otherwise have a light schedule mostly doing mic work.

[LoNdOn]

Kane's 2nd match was cancelled out by the Show/Albert handicap match.

Of course :p

[JTandSilentBob]

I thought Kane wrestled Undertaker twice too. Once when he had the mask and once after he had lost it. I specifically remember Kane crying "no, he's dead" after Taker returned from being buried by Vince.

[LoNdOn]

I thought Kane wrestled Undertaker twice too. Once when he had the mask and once after he had lost it. I specifically remember Kane crying "no, he's dead" after Taker returned from being buried by Vince.

because he beat two different guys on one wrestlemania (19) A-Train and Big Show so that cancels one of his two-fers.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

If Triple H doesn't retire after the match, which he will obviously loose, they should have him mentor Sheamus... who is storyline-wise on a losing streak and needs to change his ways to move forward, slowly turn him face and finally give him the push he deserves. Triple H could occationally team up with Sheamus in this role, but otherwise have a light schedule mostly doing mic work.

This would need some good storyline reason considering Sheamus put Trips on the shelf for ages.

[masterded]

This would need some good storyline reason considering Sheamus put Trips on the shelf for ages.

I don't think it would be that hard. You just need a month of HHH talking about his past and how what Sheamus did is something he would have done in the past. Throw in Sheamus doubting it for a bit and the crowed always wondering if this is the day HHH turns on him and it seems like an easy storyline to write.

[Fantabulous]

I didn't watch Smackdown yet, but are they really acting like Triple H didn't already lose to Undertaker at Mania? It just seems that way.
Apparently, and I don't really get the logic, Vince's edict is that when it comes to building their upcoming Wrestlemania match, their previous match didn't happen. I don't think they're claiming they never wrestled before at Wrestlemania, just that they're ignoring its existence. It makes no sense on any level but so far, like you said, they haven't made one mention of their previous match so the edict would seem to be in place.

If someone can make sense of this reasoning, I'd really like to hear it.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Apparently, and I don't really get the logic, Vince's edict is that when it comes to building their upcoming Wrestlemania match, their previous match didn't happen. I don't think they're claiming they never wrestled before at Wrestlemania, just that they're ignoring its existence. It makes no sense on any level but so far, like you said, they haven't made one mention of their previous match so the edict would seem to be in place.

If someone can make sense of this reasoning, I'd really like to hear it.

Being that they appeal to mostly kids nowadays that (a lot of them) aren't even aware they already had a wrestlemania match, why bring it up so they can know its a rehash.

[Hive]

I don't think it would be that hard. You just need a month of HHH talking about his past and how what Sheamus did is something he would have done in the past. Throw in Sheamus doubting it for a bit and the crowed always wondering if this if today is the day HHH turns on him and it seems like an easy storyline to write.

Exactly. It would give Triple H something to do that doesn't involve him having to wrestle every week and it could do wonders for Sheamus.

[juggaloninjalee]

I wouldn't mind HHH mentoring Sheamus as long as it started with 1 more match between the 2. HHH could win in a hard fought match after the match HHH could be about to smash Sheamus with the sledgehammer only to slowly bring it down and extend a hand to help him up off the mat. Sheamus could look confused and leave the ring with a look of confusion on his face. The next night HHH explains his actions and how he respects Sheamus and thinks that Sheamus could be as great if not better than himself someday but it would take a lot of work.

The torch gets passed and now HHH takes it on himself to help Sheamus.

[Moe Hunter]

Well, there was 2 men at 19.
Yep.

I think you are forgetting about Kane as well....
Nope.

Kane's 2nd match was cancelled out by the Show/Albert handicap match.
Indeed :)

[Teh_Showtime]

Holy crap that finish was wicked looking!

The crowd was extremely hot at the prospect of Sheamus leaving too. The place went from dead to electric a few times during the match.

A rematch at WM would be king.

[Zeel1]

Pretty solid match, all in all, and I was pretty interested to see which way they'd be going with Sheamus.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Turn It Up

[Jaysin]

TURN IT UP!

Holy crap Brian Christopher looks like crap. He hasn't aged well. Or maybe its just the bleached hair...

I miss Too Cool :(

[Teh_Showtime]

crowd is EXTREMELY dead... Too Cool wasn't able to get over without the Worm/stinkface

[ShaunGBD]

He can't breath. still can't breath from the run down the ramp, and that was 5 mins ago.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I take it there are zero attitude fans in the arena tonight.

[Zeel1]

At first I found it a little weird they aren't calling him Brian Lawler, considering they're acknowledging the relation, but I like how they're using that.

[Jaysin]

Why not acknowledge that Brian did something else King didn't do...win WWE gold.

[ShaunGBD]

This sucks, No one care about him

[Jaysin]

Oh My God Jr!!!

[Teh_Showtime]

Bah Gawd, Boomer Sooner And I Don't Mean Swagger

[ShaunGBD]

Bad raw.

[ShaunGBD]

Wait I read Christen (sp) wrote on his FB that he teamed with Edge last week. I'm lost. they do SD on Tuesday. would someone fill me in

[Jaysin]

Swagger still sucks.

[ShaunGBD]

I read on a website that they might have Ryan win so Punk will have 1 person. Thought that sounded good. Guess they are going another way.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Man this Orton gets beat up and hits the RKO out of nowhere schtick is real old. Why do they have to overuse every spot thats decent. They've doing it for years with everybody. How lazy are these guys??

[ShaunGBD]

Snookie isn't taking all the time. but their still time.

Never mind. I see she next.

[LoNdOn]

Drew Carrey? Really?........what a joke.

[GhostDogg]

Honestly,
I am shocked on how much HEEL HEAT Cole has gotten over the last few weeks. I mean WWE has built this fued beautifully between Cole vs King.

The WWE has turned it around for me, so to speak. 3 weeks ago, I wouldnt have DREAMT of ordering this years Wrestlemania, ESPECIALLY now that I am not in Iraq anymore= NO More Free PPV's But now, after bringing back the Rock (Yes, I am a loyal member of Team Rock) fueding with John Cena (who they have legit heat with each other) and then bringing such names as JBL, Trish Stratus, Booker T and everyone like that.


I might be wrong, but I SERIOUSLY doubt it.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

It would be so much better if it was one of MVP.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

btw I now love Josh for loving the Shore. But I liked him already anyway.:D

[ShaunGBD]

Honestly,
I am shocked on how much HEEL HEAT Cole has gotten over the last few weeks. I mean WWE has built this fued beautifully between Cole vs King.

The WWE has turned it around for me, so to speak. 3 weeks ago, I wouldnt have DREAMT of ordering this years Wrestlemania, ESPECIALLY now that I am not in Iraq anymore= NO More Free PPV's But now, after bringing back the Rock (Yes, I am a loyal member of Team Rock) fueding with John Cena (who they have legit heat with each other) and then bringing such names as JBL, Trish Stratus, Booker T and everyone like that.


I might be wrong, but I SERIOUSLY doubt it.

First GhostDogg: Thanks for serving are country. Next: I love the Rock Vs Cena Feud the problem is the Miz is getting lost in all this. if it wasn't for the Cole special ref and I think they should have been Rock as the ref.

[Teh_Showtime]

Wait I read Christen (sp) wrote on his FB that he teamed with Edge last week. I'm lost. they do SD on Tuesday. would someone fill me in

they went against Del Rio and (the impressive looking)Brodus Clay

[ShaunGBD]

they went against Del Rio and (the impressive looking)Brodus Clay

Thanks

[Teh_Showtime]

First GhostDogg: Thanks for serving are country. Next: I love the Rock Vs Cena Feud the problem is the Miz is getting lost in all this. if it wasn't for the Cole special ref and I think they should have been Rock as the ref.

until tonight I would have agreed, but Rock's segment and Miz's subsequent promo really made it seem like he was in the feud with Rock and it would be Cena who was left in limbo. Rock is serious towards Miz but not so much towards Cena and that only makes Miz look more credible.

[bigphesta]

WHY IS SNOOKIE ON HERE? Really? And the point of her 10 second statement? huh? WTF

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Ugh, Morrison goes from fringe ME to now being in a joke WM match.

[ShaunGBD]

What did she say. I accept baby. I thought it was more stupid then that. When I heard the match I didn't like the match but now that Snookie in it. I F'ING HATE it.

[ShaunGBD]

until tonight I would have agreed, but Rock's segment and Miz's subsequent promo really made it seem like he was in the feud with Rock and it would be Cena who was left in limbo. Rock is serious towards Miz but not so much towards Cena and that only makes Miz look more credible.

honestly Cena left in Limbo? No. I don't think so. But I will say the miz is getting more face time and the rock is helping out miz.

[bigphesta]

What a disgrace to the memory of Latino Heat. Lie. Cheat. Steal.

[Zeel1]

I love that Del Rio's ring announcer also gets a ring announcement. There's just something so over-the-top about that...

[bigphesta]

hmmm wonder if the Rock is here Michael Cole

[LoNdOn]

hmmm wonder if the Rock is here Michael Cole

I'm guessing Miz comes out to the rock's music from the crowd or something and jumps Cena again.

[bigphesta]

I'm guessing Miz comes out to the rock's music from the crowd or something and jumps Cena again.

yeah, how the match ended and the music hitting before he came out I had the same feeling

[LoNdOn]

I'm guessing Miz comes out to the rock's music from the crowd or something and jumps Cena again.

Bang on the money!

*Pats self on back* :D

[LoNdOn]

yeah, how the match ended and the music hitting before he came out I had the same feeling

To be fair, I made that guess as the match was halfway through.

[Teh_Showtime]

honestly Cena left in Limbo? No. I don't think so. But I will say the miz is getting more face time and the rock is helping out miz.

No, not at all but if a casual fan was to see this episode they would probably see Cena as the odd man out since it was mostly Rock vs Miz tonight.

btw that fake shaved head was pretty funny

[PoisonedSuperman]

Was the Miz's rock bottom a little different then The Rocks on delivery? I liked it.. maybe he should start doing it.

[LoNdOn]

Was the Miz's rock bottom a little different then The Rocks on delivery? I liked it.. maybe he should start doing it.

The Rock always had one foot touching the ground when he hits it. The Miz flat out jumped with him.

[Zeel1]

Loved that ending, making Miz look dangerous.

[Teh_Showtime]

Miz sadistic character could be really great. Don't know how well he would work as a guy who talks a big game and walks it (like a mega badass) but that is the vibe I got when watching him attack Cena and Khali

[GhostDogg]

Ok my thoughts on Tonights Raw:

- You guys are right, about the Cena/Rock/Miz saga. I mean every week, the ending comes out the same, Miz comes out looking better and better. Now I didnt see last weeks show, but I am honestly believing (and I might go to GDS-Hell for this) but Miz is becoming this Generations Triple H. Why? lets see, hes comes out on top as the bad @$$ heel, either against Rock and/or Cena. And we ALL know Rock is NOT wrestling. But then again... I have been proven wrong about other things. Once again, Cena looks like a Bravo India Tango Charlie Hotel, both from Rock AND Miz tonight.

- Ok. I am a new fan on the show Jersey Show, but ....Snooki? (in the Miz's voice) REALLY? REALLY? The WWE couldnt figure out a better filler and put on a match on about 7 people that I dont give 2 buckets of P*ss about (except for Ziggler, Morrison and Trish...) I hope they paid Snooki well. I can only imagine how much Sh*t the Situation is going to give Snooki about this.

- Ok.. Drew Carey in the WWE HOF...ARE... YOU...SERIOUS? That makes as much sense as INDUCTING ME into the Hall of Fame because I have watched every Wrestlemania since WM 5. Jesus Christ WWE, STEP YOUR GAME UP!.

- Ok, on Sheamus vs Bryan. Like WWE is notorious for doing, they have seriously DROPPED the ball with him. I mean in a Perfect World, he should be facing Trip's at Mania. Thats the bad news,. good news? It could be a possible good return match with Bryan at 'Mania. I mean Bryan can wrestle a Paper Bag, and makes the Bag look like Kurt Angle.

-A heel Micheal Cole....he has shown traits of Vince McMahon, (the psycho batsh*t version) and to be perfectly honest, I LOVE TO HATE HIM! I cant wait to get his @$$ owned at Mania, that ALONE is worth me Ordering the PPV. The only question I have is, who is going to be the "equalizer" for Swagger?

Ok, So I have ranted enough. I didnt see everything, because I had to tend to my 1 year old daughter.

"I Could Be Wrong, But I DOUBT It"

Ghost

[Jaysin]

So since Nexus is banned from ring side, anyone else thinking The Corre will help Punk?

[TakerNGN74]

So since Nexus is banned from ring side, anyone else thinking The Corre will help Punk?

Its good thinking but I don't think it will happen unless they completely write off the fact that Punk overthrew Barrett as the leader of the Nexus. Otherwise I thought Raw was good tonight a lot better than expected considering who the guest star was. Its just to bad they put her in a match at mania but whatever its a good kill match before Triple H vs. Taker or one of the title matches.

[Jaysin]

Its good thinking but I don't think it will happen unless they completely write off the fact that Punk overthrew Barrett as the leader of the Nexus. Otherwise I thought Raw was good tonight a lot better than expected considering who the guest star was. Its just to bad they put her in a match at mania but whatever its a good kill match before Triple H vs. Taker or one of the title matches.

What about when Nash helped Savage beat Hogan?

I mean, that split up the nWo creating the Wolfpac and nWo Hollywood and then the Wolfpac then feuded with the nWo and STILL came back together in the end.

I can see your point, but I just see Punk saying something along the lines of it all being apart of his initial plan and that him and Barrett were secretly working together.

[ampulator]

What about when Nash helped Savage beat Hogan?

I mean, that split up the nWo creating the Wolfpac and nWo Hollywood and then the Wolfpac then feuded with the nWo and STILL came back together in the end.

I can see your point, but I just see Punk saying something along the lines of it all being apart of his initial plan and that him and Barrett were secretly working together.
That was just one of dumbest storylines ever.

If WWE is dumb enough to repeat that... those who fail to learn the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat the mistakes of past.

[Jaysin]

That was just one of dumbest storylines ever.

If WWE is dumb enough to repeat that... those who fail to learn the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat the mistakes of past.

I think it wouldn't have been so bad if they handled it differently. I mean the Finger Poke of Doom is what tarnished the whole thing.

I for one loved when Hall came out to help Nash beat Goldberg.

And plus, its modern day WWE, they aren't exactly writing great stuff nowadays.

[ampulator]

I think it wouldn't have been so bad if they handled it differently. I mean the Finger Poke of Doom is what tarnished the whole thing.

I for one loved when Hall came out to help Nash beat Goldberg.

And plus, its modern day WWE, they aren't exactly writing great stuff nowadays.
Actually, if they repeat the fingerpoke of doom, that would be funny.

But the rest? No.

[Jaysin]

I can just envision it now. Orton is about to punt Punk's head in and then the Nexus music starts playing. The announcers start flipping out because Nexus is banned from ring side...

Then Wade Barrett and the rest of the Corre come from the audience and hop into the ring behind Orton as he stares at the ramp like he's ever so angry, even though his facial expression never changes. He just grunts in a different tone.

He turns around into a clothesline from Zeke, then gets the Wasteland or Heath's finisher done on him, followed by the 450 and then Punk raises to his feet looking confused at first...then smiles his diabolical smile...

That, or Skip Sheffield comes back at Mania's since he's the only member of Nexus/Corre not accounted for at the moment since he got injured.

[ampulator]

I can just envision it now. Orton is about to punt Punk's head in and then the Nexus music starts playing. The announcers start flipping out because Nexus is banned from ring side...

Then Wade Barrett and the rest of the Corre come from the audience and hop into the ring behind Orton as he stares at the ramp like he's ever so angry, even though his facial expression never changes. He just grunts in a different tone.

He turns around into a clothesline from Zeke, then gets the Wasteland or Heath's finisher done on him, followed by the 450 and then Punk raises to his feet looking confused at first...then smiles his diabolical smile...

That, or Skip Sheffield comes back at Mania's since he's the only member of Nexus/Corre not accounted for at the moment since he got injured.
And then fans proceed to howl insults on it.

Or, worse yet, not care.

Both are bad.

[TakerNGN74]

What about when Nash helped Savage beat Hogan?

I mean, that split up the nWo creating the Wolfpac and nWo Hollywood and then the Wolfpac then feuded with the nWo and STILL came back together in the end.

I can see your point, but I just see Punk saying something along the lines of it all being apart of his initial plan and that him and Barrett were secretly working together.

Thats true as well, I guess I never really thought of it that way.

[Slim Jim]

The only question I have is, who is going to be the "equalizer" for Swagger?

Stone Cold is the ref.

[MichiganHero]

Is Snooki actually going to be at WrestleMania?

If so, I think me and WWE will be falling out. Veeeeeeeery soon.

[ShaunGBD]

Is Snooki actually going to be at WrestleMania?

If so, I think me and WWE will be falling out. Veeeeeeeery soon.

Yeah, it sucks I agree. But it 1 match, who cares.

[masterded]

Is Snooki actually going to be at WrestleMania?

If so, I think me and WWE will be falling out. Veeeeeeeery soon.

At least she isn't maineventing like LT did.

[juggaloninjalee]

Snooki will be involved in a match I wouldn't watch even without her. That match will be a bathroom break for me. :)

[Teh_Showtime]

Morrison deserves better than this...we have until Summer when he wins MITB :/

[milamber]

Cena had the upper hand with his rap segments but man did Rock kick his candy ass with that hilarious promo. Bring on the live confrontations.

A shame they didn't put Miz against HHH instead of Khali - wasted opportunity. At least A-Ri got smacked around and there was some M-rated chair action. Miz is getting over well with the help of Cena and Rock.

Sheamus v Bryan was good. I was warming to the Sheamus "down on his luck" storyline. Much better than DiBiase's fall into obscurity, where only a face turn can save him.

The Christopher/Lawler segment was weird until good old JR turned up. "Cole, you are a Rat Bastard."

Miz-Rock was awesome and so was his manhandling of Cena out of the ring.

[milamber]

Raw dark matches:

R-Truth beat Tyson Kidd

Triple H & Randy Orton beat CM Punk & Sheamus

[Jaysin]

**** yeah! Another local talent gets signed by the big leagues. Major congratz to Matt "Justice" Hannan.

When he gets pulled up to the main roster I get to go around telling people how he accidentally did a suicide dive onto me:p

[Purple Cowboy]

Sheamus v Bryan was good. I was warming to the Sheamus "down on his luck" storyline. Much better than DiBiase's fall into obscurity, where only a face turn can save him.

I mean, I know it's "only" the US title, but how did Sheamus who was on a losing streak and getting faced through a table by HHH a week or two ago "earn" a title match? Did I miss back story to that?

[BHK1978]

I mean, I know it's "only" the US title, but how did Sheamus who was on a losing streak and getting faced through a table by HHH a week or two ago "earn" a title match? Did I miss back story to that?

I was wondering this myself. I hardly ever watch RAW (I catch it during the commercials when I am watching Chicago Code and Stargate Universe) but I do read up on what happens on here and on other sites. And I actually caugt Sheamus winning the title on RAW this week and I just did not get it.

I hate the fact that the US and IC titles mean next to nothing now. There was a time when they meant a lot. Well the US title never meant much in the WWF. However, in the NWA that title was important.

[crownsy]

I mean, I know it's "only" the US title, but how did Sheamus who was on a losing streak and getting faced through a table by HHH a week or two ago "earn" a title match? Did I miss back story to that?

Didn't bryan challenge him or something? they had that backstage interaction where shemus had lost and bryan was laughing with gail and they got in each other's faces a few weeks ago.

Regardless, I was really surprised by how good that match was, they had some good chemistry going on.

Looking forward to a rematch at WM, and hope it's given 15 minutes or so to fully explore the work of both guys.

I think that could be one of those "two up and comers kill themselves and have an awesome match" kinda WM moments.

[masterded]

I mean, I know it's "only" the US title, but how did Sheamus who was on a losing streak and getting faced through a table by HHH a week or two ago "earn" a title match? Did I miss back story to that?

I was wondering this myself. I hardly ever watch RAW (I catch it during the commercials when I am watching Chicago Code and Stargate Universe) but I do read up on what happens on here and on other sites. And I actually caugt Sheamus winning the title on RAW this week and I just did not get it.

I hate the fact that the US and IC titles mean next to nothing now. There was a time when they meant a lot. Well the US title never meant much in the WWF. However, in the NWA that title was important.

Didn't bryan challenge him or something? they had that backstage interaction where shemus had lost and bryan was laughing with gail and they got in each other's faces a few weeks ago.

Regardless, I was really surprised by how good that match was, they had some good chemistry going on.

Looking forward to a rematch at WM, and hope it's given 15 minutes or so to fully explore the work of both guys.

I think that could be one of those "two up and comers kill themselves and have an awesome match" kinda WM moments.

When someone says if I don't win I will quit you give them a title match no matter what their current record is, that is part of wrestling 101.

[Fantabulous]

Except stips and promises mean less then zilch in WWE. Jericho was fired/quit Raw and still showed up the next week. The Cena stips at Survivor Series were a joke. Kayfabe wise, there is no reason to give someone a title shot if they vow to quit/leave if they lose, because the company has shown it won't enforce it.

[crownsy]

Except stips and promises mean less then zilch in WWE. Jericho was fired/quit Raw and still showed up the next week. The Cena stips at Survivor Series were a joke. Kayfabe wise, there is no reason to give someone a title shot if they vow to quit/leave if they lose, because the company has shown it won't enforce it.

But it's pro wrestling Fan, and he does have a point, that is kinda the unwritten rule.

Plus, DB's character had that interaction with him and has been shown to be a fighting champion, why would he refuse keyfab wise?

That's defined DB's character so far. Undersized guy who takes on all comers and wins, no nonsense. Why would he NOT give shemus, a guy who he was laughing at a couple weeks ago, a title shot as a fighting champ if he challenged him?

[pate]

From the Tough Enough contestant write ups:

Jeremiah Riggs: This 28-year-old truck driver from Vicksburg, Mississippi is a natural athlete who prides himself on taking on new challenges. He was a US Army Ranger with the 1st Battalion and did a tour in Afghanistan in 2004. He has six years of training as an MMA Fighter with a record of seven wins and five losses, fighting with UFC, Strikeforce and Bellator. He is trying to become the first legitimate MMA fighter to crossover into WWE.


Ken Shamrock much?

[MichiganHero]

From the Tough Enough contestant write ups:




Ken Shamrock much?

Apparently he doesn't count.

[The Final Countdown]

Apparently he doesn't count.
Who is this Ken Shamrock you speak of? Will he be watching alongside the rest of the WWE Universe as The Undertaker and Triple H meet at Wrestlemania for the very first time?

[20LEgend]

You could say, technically Ken Shamrock only worked for the WWF he was never employed when they became the E and hasn't been since, so technically he wasn't an MMA crossover in the WWE, he was one in the WWF.

But still, stupid to just miss out history to hype someone, disrespectful for to the amazing Ken Shamrock imo.

Who is this Ken Shamrock you speak of? Will he be watching alongside the rest of the WWE Universe as The Undertaker and Triple H meet at Wrestlemania for the very first time?

:D.

[MichiganHero]

Who is this Ken Shamrock you speak of? Will he be watching alongside the rest of the WWE Universe as The Undertaker and Triple H meet at Wrestlemania for the very first time?

And as Snooki teams with John Morrison - who when I looked at pictures thought it was Tyler Black. I mean the facial hair is the same. They both have the brooding look going on. JoMo for TyBlack's pro on NXT someday!

[Purple Cowboy]

When someone says if I don't win I will quit you give them a title match no matter what their current record is, that is part of wrestling 101.

Good point. And, I suppose, this might open a door for Evan Bourne who got that cheap win over Sheamus at the end of Feb.

[pate]

You could say, technically Ken Shamrock only worked for the WWF he was never employed when they became the E and hasn't been since, so technically he wasn't an MMA crossover in the WWE, he was one in the WWF.



I had that thought.

[Hashasheen]

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/video-chris-jericho-preparing-for-dancing-with-the-stars-126273?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Wrestlezonecom+%28WRESTLEZONE %29

I broke down. :p

[Hive]

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/video-chris-jericho-preparing-for-dancing-with-the-stars-126273?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+Wrestlezonecom+%28WRESTLEZONE %29

I broke down. :p

I love the ending.

[ampulator]

I love the ending.
I bet Jericho is very fun to work with. He does look a bit out of shape, though.

[juggaloninjalee]

I want Jericho at Wrestlemania. :(

[Moe Hunter]

Haha looks like he's gonna hit the Knox-Out/Shell-Shock at the end there.

[James Casey]

Who is this Ken Shamrock you speak of? Will he be watching alongside the rest of the WWE Universe as The Undertaker and Triple H meet at Wrestlemania for the very first time?

Hey, now, they haven't said very first time...

...they just haven't acknowledged the other time.

Honestly, I keep expecting it to come up. Someone, somewhere, has got to mention it - if only as a sly aside to HHH backstage or something (a la the Katie Vick references). It's not like they're trying to pretend 2001 never happened - the whole point of the match is that these guys have 35 years in the WWF/E between them, and they've been there and done that since before Stephanie was more than a catalogue model.

[PoisonedSuperman]

Thats an easy one.. MMA was legit back when Shamrock mad the leap. I mean I'm not saying its right, as I would count Ken and even Dan Severn but technically MMA was still "underground".

[ampulator]

Thats an easy one.. MMA was legit back when Shamrock mad the leap. I mean I'm not saying its right, as I would count Ken and even Dan Severn but technically MMA was still "underground".
...you just contradicted yourself. Either that, or you weren't be very clear.

[PoisonedSuperman]

I meant that it wasn't legit. It was real fighting but it wasn't really looked at as a sport. Sorry.

[ampulator]

I meant that it wasn't legit. It was real fighting but it wasn't really looked at as a sport. Sorry.
Well, that's true. But the thing was, MMA was hot back then... it was just the legality of it was in question. The question of whther it was legit or real was there, but it was most legality.

[Fantabulous]

The question of whther it was legit or real was there, but it was most legality.
I think the majority of people who thought it was worked back then were wrestlers. Come to think of it, most of the people who ever questioned the legitimacy of UFC/MMA were wrestlers. Then again, a lot of wrestlers were convinced things like the Superbowl are worked.

[Jaysin]

Didn't Don Frye do pro wrestling too?

After thinking about him made me want to watch Godzilla: Final Wars. Looks like I know what I'm watching after Impact :D

*edit*
Also, Superstars has been canceled.

[ampulator]

I think the majority of people who thought it was worked back then were wrestlers. Come to think of it, most of the people who ever questioned the legitimacy of UFC/MMA were wrestlers. Then again, a lot of wrestlers were convinced things like the Superbowl are worked.
I'm certain in the early days, a lot of stuff was worked. But some genuine fighters, like Bas Rutten, would rather just quit the match than ever do a worked match. It's a pride issue.

There were some in Pancrase, UFC, and even in Pride. But nowadays? I doubt there's any works in the UFC now.

[Fantabulous]

I'm certain in the early days, a lot of stuff was worked. But some genuine fighters, like Bas Rutten, would rather just quit the match than ever do a worked match. It's a pride issue.

There were some in Pancrase, UFC, and even in Pride. But nowadays? I doubt there's any works in the UFC now.
The only 'dive' in the UFC was Anthony Macias for Oleg Taktarov at UFC 6. The one other fight in UFC that had a question mark over it was Don Frye/Mark Hall, and that was only because Hall later claimed he was paid to take a dive in it. I'd like to hear what fights, and why, you think were worked.

There were some worked fights in Pancrase and PRIDE, but there has never been any talk of a worked fight in UFC, outside of the above two.

[ampulator]

The only 'dive' in the UFC was Anthony Macias for Oleg Taktarov at UFC 6. The one other fight in UFC that had a question mark over it was Don Frye/Mark Hall, and that was only because Hall later claimed he was paid to take a dive in it. I'd like to hear what fights, and why, you think were worked.

There were some worked fights in Pancrase and PRIDE, but there has never been any talk of a worked fight in UFC, outside of the above two.
It's those you referenced, pretty much. I generally don't think fights were worked, though. too much scrutiny and too many people to trust for the info NOT get get out.

[Teh_Showtime]

didn't Del Rio have a few MMA fights too?

[Fantabulous]

didn't Del Rio have a few MMA fights too?

Yes, including a 46-second destruction at the hands of Mirco.

[ampulator]

didn't Del Rio have a few MMA fights too?
Yes. He's most infamous moment is getting LHK'ed by Crocop. I'm not too familiar with his Mexico MMA, though. He made the mistake of giving Crocop distance. If you move backward and to the right of Crocop, that's a guarantee that you are going to get LHK'ed.

[milamber]

Good to see Sheamus win again and Brodus in the ring with Edge.

The Corre beatdown was good. More than just kicking opponents in the ring like most Corre and Nexus angles.

Wow, DiBiase made Rey look average. Give the guy a push already.

Christian in a cage match with Del Rio and getting good pop from the crowd was awesome. The match felt fresh because it wasn't the same old main eventers.

Dark Match: Percy Watson defeated Drew McIntyre - WTF! Percy was annoying on NXT. Just as well for Drew it wasn't part of the main show.

Australian poster for Extreme Rules featuring CM Punk (http://www.mainevent.com.au/wrestling/wwe-extreme-rules-925/)

[SeanMcFly]

Yes, including a 46-second destruction at the hands of Mirco.

NOT HIS FACE!

[Jaysin]

http://www.whosay.com/DwayneJohnson/photos/17408?code=PAhc9L

The Rock just posted that on Facebook saying he'd be in Chicago for Raw. It'd be nice if he's working out ring rust, but I'm not holding my breath.

*edit*

I just read he's doing an episode of Tough Enough where he works out with the contestants. So I'm kind of guessing this might be from that episode.

[Teh_Showtime]

Im enjoying smackdown. Im not doing anything tonight and it started off with 2 VERY solid matches.

Brodus Clay is extremely impressive so far but that could be due to him working with Edge most of the time. He obviously has the look, but he seems pretty agile and has at least a decent amount of psychology to fall back on.

[Jaysin]

Wait, weren't E&C supposed to have a title match tonight?

[milamber]

Brodus has a good suplex for a big guy.

DiBiase impressed me the most this week. Relegated to jobber with no push in sight, and he comes out with his best performance since his feud with Bryan.

[ampulator]

Brodus has a good suplex for a big guy.

DiBiase impressed me the most this week. Relegated to jobber with no push in sight, and he comes out with his best performance since his feud with Bryan.
His problem is... he has no charisma or the "it" factor. He's a nice-looking guy, and decent in the ring, but that's it.

[GatorBait19]

His problem is... he has no charisma or the "it" factor. He's a nice-looking guy, and decent in the ring, but that's it.

I don't think he's that bad. He's still just 28 and still does need some work. His biggest problem to me at least is that he came up to early. I think he can be a big name if he puts just a little more effort into things.

[ampulator]

I don't think he's that bad. He's still just 28 and still does need some work. His biggest problem to me at least is that he came up to early. I think he can be a big name if he puts just a little more effort into things.
I don't disagree, but I never said he was bad. He's just not that good. Certainly not bad, but certainly not good. The guy is just bland. He doesn't really do any gimmick right. He's got little to no charisma. He doesn't have "it". He has no psychology, "zing", and his selling is meh.

It's not for a lack of trying. He tries. But just doesn't have the total package. He has all the basics down, but he doesn't have "bells and whistles" or anything unique about him.

[Lo-Drew]

I don't disagree, but I never said he was bad. He's just not that good. Certainly not bad, but certainly not good. The guy is just bland. He doesn't really do any gimmick right. He's got little to no charisma. He doesn't have "it". He has no psychology, "zing", and his selling is meh.

It's not for a lack of trying. He tries. But just doesn't have the total package. He has all the basics down, but he doesn't have "bells and whistles" or anything unique about him.

I agree. Who ever thought that Cody Rhodes might actually have a better career then DiBase which by the way, I actually like the whole Mysterio/Rhodes just because Rey is still a very good worker who can still have great matches. Plus it seems as if Cody has improved slightly.

[ampulator]

I agree. Who ever thought that Cody Rhodes might actually have a better career then DiBase which by the way, I actually like the whole Mysterio/Rhodes just because Rey is still a very good worker who can still have great matches. Plus it seems as if Cody has improved slightly.
Cody is just as good as Ted now, but better. He's single kryptonite is his size and height. If he was just a bit taller and a bit heavier, he would be more credible.

[Lo-Drew]

Cody is just as good as Ted now, but better. He's single kryptonite is his size and height. If he was just a bit taller and a bit heavier, he would be more credible.

That's true but with his new direction in character, I think it can work. Perhaps he needs to bulk up more but he has the tools to be something. That's why his match with Mysterio is actually one I want to watch.

[Eisen-verse]

Some thoughts while watching WWE RAW A.M...


I don't like the Jersey Shore at all.... That said... Snooki was entertaining on RAW. Being known as a tough girl, whether flattering or not, her thez press just seemed that much more epic. ha.
Love Punk/Orton and how creative has booked it. If it were me, I'd like to see Punk go over Orton but I don't see it happening. The reasoning for 'killing off' the new nexus through Orton's boot? So, Orton can look really strong, nexus can possibly 'die off' (sadly), and the heel (punk) can lose at Mania due to the age old addage: Heel vs. Face with no interferences often goes to the face.
Still lovin' me some Miz these days. I know there are a lot of people out there who hate the guy, and hey so did I at a point, but, to me, he's playing his role really well.
Miz coming out as The Rock was simply awesome... Loved when the girl took a picture and said "Oh, my god"; little did she know! ha.

[DieselWeasel]

I've fallen out of the wrestling scene for the past couple of years, but Raw recently has caught my attention. Really enjoying the Rock and the Miz. I actually really liked the Miz back when he first started out in the WWE on Tough Enough, I didn't expect to him to wind up World Champion but it's fun to see how things have gone down.

[joehelmer]

I enjoyed both RAW and SmackDown this week, nice to see Christian in the main event as he's one of my favorite wrestlers.

I'm also enjoying The Miz, at first when I started to follow WWE, in 2007, I thought he was annoying, but he has grown for me and now I like to hate him. The segment on RAW when he was dressed up as The Rock was awesome and I hope he starts using that version of Rock Bottom as finisher later on.

And I can't help it but I get shivers down my spine when I hear the Rock's entrance theme.

[Jaysin]

Jericho had this to say about The Miz

"I’m sure I’ll be back. I have to return to WWE to take my persona back. I watched Raw on Monday and felt like I was having an out of body experience. I was watching myself on live TV! Then I realized I hadn’t gotten that ugly and become that bad of a wrestler and realized I was actually watching the current WWE Champion, The Miz."

[lazorbeak]

Haha, Jericho and Miz have had a twitter feud going back more than a year. Somehow I doubt he's serious. Miz has been excellent though.

[joehelmer]

Hm, maybe a feud in the making? They really should do something with this as Cena and The Rock is having a Facebook/Twitter feud now.

[Teh_Showtime]

I agree. Who ever thought that Cody Rhodes might actually have a better career then DiBase which by the way, I actually like the whole Mysterio/Rhodes just because Rey is still a very good worker who can still have great matches. Plus it seems as if Cody has improved slightly.

I always preferred Cody to Ted.

Rhodes was pretty good while he was green against Orton in their mini feud. Rhodes has been in my top 3 since 08 (Morrison, and Punk).

[sabataged]

I always thought Ted was superior, something about how frigging skinny Cody was. But lately Cody has been on a roll and Ted is just spiraling downward. They dropped the ball big time when they didn't turn him face against Randy Orton back in the Legacy days. They keep teasing the split up between Maryse and Ted. I think they should go through with it by having Maryse pick up a new man, turning on Ted, and turning Ted face.

http://www.youtube.com/user/WWEFanNation#p/u/15/zi5Us7uiROM

Reminds me of Kane when he was first unmasked lol

[sabataged]

What is everyone's thoughts on Tyler Reks? I think he has a unique look with a cool finisher. I guess he just comes across bland other than that. They should do some vignettes like they did with Nathan Jones back in the day. Playing him up like he is crazy or something.

http://www.youtube.com/user/WWEFanNation#p/u/35/XdtUsvP4nCY

[djthefunkchris]

Liked the Miz as well, same thoughts as most share. Dissapointed with Ted Dibiase lately, but catch him on Superstars when I can.

Rhodes.... Incredible to me. I feel like I'm watching the actual Phantom of the Opera character, in a wrestling environment. He's like the old style Phantom, on stage, covering his face... and the way he's doing it is spot on. I feel like that's exactly what he's getting his direction from.

Up till now though, haven't really liked him as much as Ted. Now however.... I'm starting to feel the same as everyone else seems to feel. He can go somewhere with this role.

[djthefunkchris]

What is everyone's thoughts on Tyler Reks? I think he has a unique look with a cool finisher. I guess he just comes across bland other than that. They should do some vignettes like they did with Nathan Jones back in the day. Playing him up like he is crazy or something.

http://www.youtube.com/user/WWEFanNation#p/u/35/XdtUsvP4nCY

Tyler Reks comes off as if he is dirty for some reason, and I mean dirty as in actually dirty, not a bad guy. I don't know why he seems that way, I'm sure he's not. They need to do something to clean it up though, because that is really stinking up his potential, which I dissagree with you on. I feel he could be alot less bland if he wasn't so hard to look at. I don't know if playing him like he's crazy would do anything without making it look like he takes baths.

Without thinking about that, and actually watching his in ring performance. I feel he has alot of potential. He seems to come off not only as a threat, but dangerous, which I like alot. They could easily make it look like he hurt someone so bad they wouldn't want to come back... Just has that kind of psychology. They could make it look like an accident and I don't think anyone wouldn't find it easy to fall for it.

[ampulator]

That's true but with his new direction in character, I think it can work. Perhaps he needs to bulk up more but he has the tools to be something. That's why his match with Mysterio is actually one I want to watch.
It's not that I believe he has to bulk to be credible to ME, it's thath he has to bulk to be credible to the WWE audience.

Right now, WWE will no longer be able to get the top big athletes anymore. All of them have either gone to Football, Basketball, Boxing, and even MMA nowadays. WWE's reliance on big guys is now hurting it. There are no credible big guys anymore, simply because the most talented big guys go for something else. What WWE is left with is... crappy big guys. Big guys that the average joe think "I can beat this fat guy up".

What they are left with his average size guys, and increasingly, smaller guys. Because WWE has never made small guys credible (in general), this hurts a lot of their roster, and any potential recruitments they may have in the future.

Cody CAN be credible, it's just the audience has been conditioned to believe he isn't. It's a sad fact, but it's a reality. WWE can change it... but I'm not sure they want to.

That being said, people don't just buy "big" anymore. I think MMA has proven that just being big but out-of-shape and untalented means you aren't much if you against a smaller guy that's in great shape and extremely talented. It's one (but the only) reasons why people like Kane but don't care much for a guy like Brodus Clay, or Great Khali.

[sabataged]

It's not that I believe he has to bulk to be credible to ME, it's thath he has to bulk to be credible to the WWE audience.

Right now, WWE will no longer be able to get the top big athletes anymore. All of them have either gone to Football, Basketball, Boxing, and even MMA nowadays. WWE's reliance on big guys is now hurting it. There are no credible big guys anymore, simply because the most talented big guys go for something else. What WWE is left with is... crappy big guys. Big guys that the average joe think "I can beat this fat guy up".

What they are left with his average size guys, and increasingly, smaller guys. Because WWE has never made small guys credible (in general), this hurts a lot of their roster, and any potential recruitments they may have in the future.

Cody CAN be credible, it's just the audience has been conditioned to believe he isn't. It's a sad fact, but it's a reality. WWE can change it... but I'm not sure they want to.

That being said, people don't just buy "big" anymore. I think MMA has proven that just being big but out-of-shape and untalented means you aren't much if you against a smaller guy that's in great shape and extremely talented. It's one (but the only) reasons why people like Kane but don't care much for a guy like Brodus Clay, or Great Khali.


In the mid 90's when WWE was facing the steroid scandal they moved to a bit of a smaller base, pushing stars like HBK and Bret Hart. I think they could something like that now, but they have to have extremely talented smaller guys to get behind. The awe of the big man is always a draw. A small guy needs 10 times the talent to make up for the size.

[sabataged]

Liked the Miz as well, same thoughts as most share. Dissapointed with Ted Dibiase lately, but catch him on Superstars when I can.

Rhodes.... Incredible to me. I feel like I'm watching the actual Phantom of the Opera character, in a wrestling environment. He's like the old style Phantom, on stage, covering his face... and the way he's doing it is spot on. I feel like that's exactly what he's getting his direction from.

Up till now though, haven't really liked him as much as Ted. Now however.... I'm starting to feel the same as everyone else seems to feel. He can go somewhere with this role.

I wish they would of went with a white shield/mask instead. Would add to the 'disfigured'

[ampulator]

In the mid 90's when WWE was facing the steroid scandal they moved to a bit of a smaller base, pushing stars like HBK and Bret Hart. I think they could something like that now, but they have to have extremely talented smaller guys to get behind. The awe of the big man is always a draw. A small guy needs 10 times the talent to make up for the size.
i disagree, but only slightly. Bigger men are bigger draws, yes. If two are guys are equal and everything, but one is bigger, the bigger one is always the bigger choice to push.

Here's where I disagree, though. Big guys aren't the draws they once were. It's because of... modern technology. Back then, because there was no "visual assistance" (titantrons, TV's, etc), it was hard to see the ring from the back rows. Therefore, big guys were preferred. But nowadays, that's almost no longer problem.

Two, people prefer fast-paced action. Most big guys (except Kane, Matt Morgan, and Brock Lesnar) could not move fast at all. Modern crowds have short attention span, and anything that moves slow... isn't worth watching to them.

So, here is where you are wrong. They don't need that much more talent to make up for the talent, and they certainly don't need 10 times of it to make up for it. Modern technology and modern information had made size less of a factor.

People want to see big guys that can move like they are gazelle, and if they can't have that, they will settle for someone that can move fast over someone that's clearly out of shape and slow.

[lazorbeak]

i disagree, but only slightly. Bigger men are bigger draws, yes. If two are guys are equal and everything, but one is bigger, the bigger one is always the bigger choice to push.

Here's where I disagree, though. Big guys aren't the draws they once were. It's because of... modern technology. Back then, because there was no "visual assistance" (titantrons, TV's, etc), it was hard to see the ring from the back rows. Therefore, big guys were preferred. But nowadays, that's almost no longer problem.

Two, people prefer fast-paced action. Most big guys (except Kane, Matt Morgan, and Brock Lesnar) could not move fast at all. Modern crowds have short attention span, and anything that moves slow... isn't worth watching to them.

So, here is where you are wrong. They don't need that much more talent to make up for the talent, and they certainly don't need 10 times of it to make up for it. Modern technology and modern information had made size less of a factor.

People want to see big guys that can move like they are gazelle, and if they can't have that, they will settle for someone that can move fast over someone that's clearly out of shape and slow.

No idea where you're getting this at all. Big guys are preferable because they can be seen from farther away? Is that why boxing and every other legit sport has always treated heavyweights as a superior draw? Because of how big the guys look in the 100th row?

And all wrestling fans want modern, "fast-paced" action? That must be why TNA's X-division and WWE guys like Kofi Kingston are such ratings magnets.

Just limiting things to the past ten years, when modern technology has included jumbotrons, the top draws in american professional wrestling have been guys like Triple H, The Rock, Brock Lesnar, Batista, John Cena, and Randy Orton. None of those guys are exactly small, with Cena being the smallest, billed at 6'2, 250. Meanwhile Bob Sapp became one of the biggest stars in Japan. Brock Lesnar became one of the top draws in MMA history almost overnight in large part because of his look. So to say big guys don't draw any more is preposterous. Big guys are inherently more of a draw in a worked sport like pro wrestling, and not because you can see them from slightly farther away.

[ampulator]

No idea where you're getting this at all. Big guys are preferable because they can be seen from farther away? Is that why boxing and every other legit sport has always treated heavyweights as a superior draw? Because of how big the guys look in the 100th row?

And all wrestling fans want modern, "fast-paced" action? That must be why TNA's X-division and WWE guys like Kofi Kingston are such ratings magnets.

Just limiting things to the past ten years, when modern technology has included jumbotrons, the top draws in american professional wrestling have been guys like Triple H, The Rock, Brock Lesnar, Batista, John Cena, and Randy Orton. None of those guys are exactly small, with Cena being the smallest, billed at 6'2, 250. Meanwhile Bob Sapp became one of the biggest stars in Japan. Brock Lesnar became one of the top draws in MMA history almost overnight in large part because of his look. So to say big guys don't draw any more is preposterous. Big guys are inherently more of a draw in a worked sport like pro wrestling, and not because you can see them from slightly farther away.
Actually, TNA's X-Division is a good draw... in TNA. In the WWE, because they have delegitimized (though not intentionally, if you ask me) small guys. If you look TNA's switch to away from the X-Division, they aren't exactly doing so well (though it's not just solely because they went away from the X-division, but that's related yet separate discussion).

As for boxing, people DID prefer the Heavyweights. Just ask any old school boxing fan-Heavyweights were the draw. Generally speaking, Heavyweight fights are either exciting or boring... nothing in-between. I think Boxing's big mistake was relying on Heavyweights. Nowadays, they aren't enough good Heavyweights, and Boxing suffers for it. They either to find away to get more Heavyweights (not easy, considering Football and MMA are vying for the same talent) or rely on smaller weight classes (they sort of have, Paquiao). Boxing is adjusting, but MMA is now also vying for smaller boxers as well. Boxing is not as bad place as wrestling is, though.

Two, I never said big guys dont' draw. I say fat guys that are slow don't draw. Bob Sapp and Brock Lesnar can move like Welterweight for a couple of minutes.

As for the other guys you've listed, they aren't small, but they aren't big either. WWE's reliance on big guys hurts them as well, though nowhere near as much as smaller workers.

And as for bigger guys being more of a draw, I don't deny that. What I do deny is, being bigger is no longer the factor it once was. It doesn't matter as much as it used to, considering modern information and technology has made being big, especiall big people that are slow, fat, and lumbering, no longer all-important, but merely somewhat useful.

Like I said before, if said Big guy can move fast as smaller guy, that's what people want, not some lumbering, uncoordinated, slow big guy. There's a huge difference.

[Teh_Showtime]

It might be good to know that Randy Orton is smaller than John Cena. But other than that, very valid argument.

[ampulator]

It might be good to know that Randy Orton is smaller than John Cena. But other than that, very valid argument.
I don't think they are small guys. But they aren't certainly huge. It just shows you that the size matters less and less over time.

[Fantabulous]

It's never been about being big per se in the WWF/E. It's about being tall and having a good physique. Bobby Lashley didn't get fast tracked to the top because of his amateur credentials. Chris Masters didn't get on the main roster a good 2-3 years too soon because he was a great talker.

Remember a few years ago when Orton had his shoulder injury and was on Raw with Vince and Vince made a crack about Orton looking small? Or the infamous Triple H insult of Masters? It's always been about height and physique.

[PeterHilton]

Remember a few years ago when Orton had his shoulder injury and was on Raw with Vince and Vince made a crack about Orton looking small? Or the infamous Triple H insult of Masters? It's always been about height and physique.

This. I seriously have no idea what amp is talking about

I suppose it's "easier" to get a smaller guy over because of the advent of technology or whatever, but the biggest stars in the industry are still roughly the same size and height.

[Hive]

Hilariously stupid:

WWE sent a demand to a website that called them a wrestling company to change their wording. TVWeek.com had a headline that ran "'Drew Carey inducted into pro wrestling Hall of Fame." According to the site, they received an email from WWE publicist Kellie Baldyga, ordering them to change the headline because "We are no longer a wrestling company but rather a global entertainment company with a movie studio, international licensing deals, publisher of three magazines, consumer good distributor and more."

The publicist further said "No, we don't do wrestling events. They're entertainments. And we don't call them wrestlers. They're superstars and divas."

TVWeek refused the request and removed the article rather than change the headline.


Source: http://www.ewrestlingnews.com/headlines/Do_Not_Call_WWE_A_Wrestling_Company_-_Details.php

[The Final Countdown]

"No, we don't do wrestling events. They're entertainments."
Coming soon: EntertainmentMania 27!

[20LEgend]

Pathetic Vince, can't wait to see TNA capitalise on this. TNA: America's largest Wrestling Promotion !

Bryan Danielson, get yourself out of there! :p

[BurningHamster]

What are they going to do? Sue TV Week for defamation for saying that the WWE is a wrestling company? Ridiculous, not just for the obvious reasons but also to think they can tell a publication how to write their headlines.

[The Final Countdown]

Pathetic Vince, can't wait to see TNA capitalise on this. TNA: America's largest Wrestling Promotion !

Bryan Danielson, get yourself out of there! :p
And yet, Total Nonstop Action devotes less time to matches than the company who calls their shows "entertainments". :D

[juggaloninjalee]

TNA really should claim they are the largest wrestling company in America. Hyping themselves up that way kinda how WCW always said they were where the big boys played is something that could help.

I really wish I worked for TNA and had the ability to take over head booking position. There are so many things I would do. Less angles/more wrestling... Make all titles mean something.

Either way I think it is dumb that WWE goes and tells people they aren't a wrestling company.

[Zeel1]

Coming soon: EntertainmentMania 27!

The premier event of the year for World Entertainment Entertainment~!

[ampulator]

The premier event of the year for World Entertainment Entertainment~!
It's World Sports Entertainment. Get it right.

[Linsolv]

I'm not sure that "entertainments" is a word...

[TheLeviticalLawKid3]

I'm not sure that "entertainments" is a word...
It is not. Entertainment is always a singular noun, if grammar class taught me correctly. Collective noun, right?

[Jaysin]

The premier event of the year for World Entertainment Entertainment~!

or, WEE!

[jhd1]

I don't think I'd be tempted to go to an Entertainments, myself - surely they can think up a better word than that!

Incidentally, can someone explain to me why they don't want to be a wrestling company? I'm not kidding, I really want to know (without the sarcasm, preferably!) - I'm guessing there is a reason behind the choice but I'm at a loss as to what that reason might be.

[Eisen-verse]

I don't think I'd be tempted to go to an Entertainments, myself - surely they can think up a better word than that!

Incidentally, can someone explain to me why they don't want to be a wrestling company? I'm not kidding, I really want to know (without the sarcasm, preferably!) - I'm guessing there is a reason behind the choice but I'm at a loss as to what that reason might be.

The only thing I can think of is that there's still a stigma placed upon professional wrestling in the U.S. While things have changed quite a bit, I think the attitude era, while great for wrestling fans, ultimately made them look rather foolish from a mainstream perspective.

To transition into being known as an entertainment company, they hope to transition into more of a fixture of the mainstream public. When they say 'you're just rasslers' they can come back and tout how they're more of an entertainment company than the 'rassling' people grew up to laugh at. It's more marketable to be an entertainment company. Also, there's more room for a longer tenure as well I would guess.

Just my thought.

Cheers.

E-V

[Self]

I don't think I'd be tempted to go to an Entertainments, myself - surely they can think up a better word than that!

Incidentally, can someone explain to me why they don't want to be a wrestling company? I'm not kidding, I really want to know (without the sarcasm, preferably!) - I'm guessing there is a reason behind the choice but I'm at a loss as to what that reason might be.

There's definitely a negative stigma attached to wrestling in the entertainment industry. Jericho mentions it in his book as being the "red headed stepchild" when compared to movies, tv, music, sports et al. It's just... looked down upon. Sure, we fans dig it and respect it, but to outsiders it's an altogether silly affair.

That stigma transfers over into business. From what I'm given to understand, advertising sells for much cheaper during RAW than other shows in similar timeslots with similar ratings, because it's understood that wrestling fans aren't smart enough or rich enough to buy certain products. The violent aspects of wrestling also cause trouble with more family-friendly groups, such as Mattel, who give them major money for licensing. I can see how pushing the "it's okay kids, we're fake" aspect could appease a lot of high-powered, wealthy people.

It's chucklesome how WWE deny deny deny, but I can see the method to the madness, even if I don't agree with it.

EDIT: Have you ever denied you were a wrestling fan in conversation? Or at least downplayed how much you're into it. I know I have. WWE is the same, insecure deal in many ways.

[The Final Countdown]

or, WEE!
That makes me think of going down a slide. So...I approve, is what I'm saying.

[PeterHilton]

I don't think I'd be tempted to go to an Entertainments, myself - surely they can think up a better word than that!

Incidentally, can someone explain to me why they don't want to be a wrestling company? I'm not kidding, I really want to know (without the sarcasm, preferably!) - I'm guessing there is a reason behind the choice but I'm at a loss as to what that reason might be.

From a pop culture standpoint, Pro Wrestling has a bad reputation attached to it...of being for the poor, the dumb, the slightly white trash..even with the years of proven crossover appeal...as if the only people who watch it are dorks and hicks.

A lot of members of the mainstream media still see wrestling as if it's close to roller derby and drag racing. And the WWE wants to be regarded as more of alive-action event, like you're attending a Las Vegas show.

[jhd1]

Ah, that makes sense. Thanks Self & E-V! :)

EDIT: And Peter :D

[PeterHilton]

The only thing I can think of is that there's still a stigma placed upon professional wrestling in the U.S. While things have changed quite a bit, I think the attitude era, while great for wrestling fans, ultimately made them look rather foolish from a mainstream perspective.



How so? Seriously...the stigma attached to wrestling was around for ages befroe the Attitude Era. If anything, that was the first time where wrestling was seen as 'cool' and more specifically it was seen as cool for people that weren't kids or parents of kids.

The only reason mainstream media *might* take wrestling seriously is because quite a few names from that era have crossed over into mainstream projects.

[Fantabulous]

I still remember the Raw when Cole welcome us to "the hottest action/adventure show on television."

It's one thing to present your wrestling product as 'entertainment' or 'sports entertainment' and all that jazz, and I can understand wanting to change the perception of what it is you do. But to outright deny you're a wrestling company entirely? That's something else.

[Hive]

The only thing I can think of is that there's still a stigma placed upon professional wrestling in the U.S. While things have changed quite a bit, I think the attitude era, while great for wrestling fans, ultimately made them look rather foolish from a mainstream perspective.

To transition into being known as an entertainment company, they can they hope to transition into more of a fixture of the mainstream public. When they say 'you're just rasslers' they can come back and tout how they're move of an entertainment company than the 'rassling' people grew up to laugh at. It's more marketable to be an entertainment company. Also, there's more room for a longer tenure as well I would guess.

Just my thought.

Cheers.

E-V

While this is all true, I believe the real reason for World Wrestling Entertainment trying to claim they are not a wrestling company and their workers not wrestlers is simple: by calling their workers 'superstars' or 'performers' or whatever instead of 'wrestlers', their employees have a lot less rights than if they were achknowledged athletes.

[PeterHilton]

I still remember the Raw when Cole welcome us to "the hottest action/adventure show on television."

It's one thing to present your wrestling product as 'entertainment' or 'sports entertainment' and all that jazz, and I can understand wanting to change the perception of what it is you do. But to outright deny you're a wrestling company entirely? That's something else.

What they do puts them so far beyond what any other wrestling promotion in the US does, why bother putting themselves in the same category?

Wrestling fans know it's wrestling. They are just doing this to change the perspctive of people outside their fanbase. To change the minds of those people - if it's possible - it's worth it.

[PeterHilton]

While this is all true, I believe the real reason for World Wrestling Entertainment trying to claim they are not a wrestling company and their workers not wrestlers is simple: by calling their workers 'superstars' or 'performers' or whatever instead of 'wrestlers', their employees have a lot less rights than if they were achknowledged athletes.

That's completely false. I mean..totally..false. To the point of being a little silly... :rolleyes:

Their rights are dictated by the terms of their contracts. Nothing else. It's not like they would all of a sudden be guaranteed some kind of medical coverage or insurance if they were called 'wrestlers.'

By that logic, wouldn't the 'wrestlers' working indy rights be treated better than the WWE entertainers are? And how's that going?

[lazorbeak]

Well up to and including a generation ago, most wrestlers were basically at "carny" level on the entertainment food chain. They even went from town to town calling their fans "marks" and speaking a barely disguised carny language.

Edit: Hive, you're thinking of the illusory "independent contractor" status wrestlers have, instead of being "employees." Totally separate issue.

[Jaysin]

That makes me think of going down a slide. So...I approve, is what I'm saying.

As an adult, I'm not supposed to go down slides. So if I'm at the top of a slide, I have to pretend that I got there accidentally. "How the hell did I get up here? I guess I have to slide down. WEE!" That's what you say when you're having fun. You refer to yourself and some other people.

[ampulator]

The only thing I can think of is that there's still a stigma placed upon professional wrestling in the U.S. While things have changed quite a bit, I think the attitude era, while great for wrestling fans, ultimately made them look rather foolish from a mainstream perspective.

To transition into being known as an entertainment company, they hope to transition into more of a fixture of the mainstream public. When they say 'you're just rasslers' they can come back and tout how they're more of an entertainment company than the 'rassling' people grew up to laugh at. It's more marketable to be an entertainment company. Also, there's more room for a longer tenure as well I would guess.

Just my thought.

Cheers.

E-V
That's sort of a misconception, because it was the during the Attitude, they were closer to the Mainstream than ever before... both WWF and WCW, during that time. Except for Russo's WCWcoughtnacough, they fit well within the Mainstream at the time.

I think it has more to do with what they THINK they need to do, rather what they ACTUALLY have to do. Vince is sort of done with wrestling, in a sense. He's conquered. That's true enough. But he wants to expand beyond wrestling. He tried on not relying in the past, and he got burned, badly (Bodybuidling, Football). So, he's trying to morph his product into something else.

All I can say is, it's not work out like he intended, and it's not working out to a lot of people's satisfaction. Buyrates and Live Attendance is certainly down, and TV Ratings are dropping slightly, and they are selling a bit less merchandise overall. The only thing is up, ironically, their B-moviie sales (which actually turn a quicker profit than their Hollywood tries).

[Hive]

Edit: Hive, you're thinking of the illusory "independent contractor" status wrestlers have, instead of being "employees." Totally separate issue.

Yeah? My bad.

[Fantabulous]

Wrestling fans know it's wrestling. They are just doing this to change the perspctive of people outside their fanbase. To change the minds of those people - if it's possible - it's worth it.
Changing the name of what they do, whilst simultaneously denying they do what they do, isn't what's going to change the perception. It's the product they present that will do that.

[ampulator]

Changing the name of what they do, whilst simultaneously denying they do what they do, isn't what's going to change the perception. It's the product they present that will do that.
It's not just their product. It' as if WWE has removed everything that was interesting about themselves, and trying to go back to a more simple product, but with a base of workers that can't really work to their full potential to this product, and with a a large portion of the fan-base that is not sympathetic to the product either. WWE's Attitude? "If you don't like this, go watch something else (even when you will still be watching anyway)." A lot of fans then move on to other things. Not all at once, but through sheer attrition, some fans just go "screw it" and do indeed go somewhere else.

The WWE has put all eggs in the entertainment basket, and now they are paying for it.

[PeterHilton]

Changing the name of what they do, whilst simultaneously denying they do what they do, isn't what's going to change the perception. It's the product they present that will do that.

Haven't they done that? I mean..isn't what the WWE does significantly different than what longtime fans considered your typical 'wrestling' show?

Plus..re-naming things is a pretty standard part of publicity and spin. Doesn't seem all that surprising to be honest.

[Fantabulous]

Haven't they done that? I mean..isn't what the WWE does significantly different than what longtime fans considered your typical 'wrestling' show?


And it's done a bang up job of changing perceptions, not to mention enticing in the paying customer.

[ampulator]

Haven't they done that? I mean..isn't what the WWE does significantly different than what longtime fans considered your typical 'wrestling' show?

Plus..re-naming things is a pretty standard part of publicity and spin. Doesn't seem all that surprising to be honest.
The thing is, their rebranding and renaming sucks. If it was good, who would complain? But if it's not good, they should have just sticked to not rebranding or renaming at all. If you are going to do it, you have to do it right, or don't do it at all. It's exercise in pointlessness and aggravation.

And it's done a bang up job of changing perceptions, not to mention enticing in the paying customer.

Hah! Good one. Can't agree more.

[PeterHilton]

The WWE has put all eggs in the entertainment basket, and now they are paying for it.

This is probably the best summary of the WWE's current problems I've seen on these boards; critical without being stupidly 'wrestling nerd' snarky

They grossly over-estimated how easy it was to predict what wrestling fans like and how long mainstream fans would tune in to straight-forward stories and simple characters.

They tried to get rid of the risk, and ended up delivering a product that is pretty boring after a while; there's no reason you HAVE to tune in.

[1234]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_cxTzPtuD0

Husky Harris's apparant new Mankind like gimmick in FCW.

[ampulator]

This is probably the best summary of the WWE's current problems I've seen on these boards; critical without being stupidly 'wrestling nerd' snarky

They grossly over-estimated how easy it was to predict what wrestling fans like and how long mainstream fans would tune in to straight-forward stories and simple characters.

They tried to get rid of the risk, and ended up delivering a product that is pretty boring after a while; there's no reason you HAVE to tune in.
I don't think they abandoned ALL risk. That would be unfair statement... but the thing is, their version of "entertaiment" only appeals to a mile-wide but inch-deep fanbase. And when the economy and/or the wrestliing industry isn't so hot, these fans are simply not going to be there.

And Vince needs to learn something about history, from his own actions. He changed the rules of wrestling with the WWE. No matter if you like this fact or not, he did. There's no escaping it. But now HE has to realize that ECW, WCW, and WWF Attitude changed the rules as well. It's too late to dial back. The Pandora's Box has been opened. You can never go back.

He needs to adjust to the new reality, and he hasn't.

[PeterHilton]

And it's done a bang up job of changing perceptions, not to mention enticing in the paying customer.

The thing is, their rebranding and renaming sucks. If it was good, who would complain? But if it's not good, they should have just sticked to not rebranding or renaming at all. If you are going to do it, you have to do it right, or don't do it at all. It's exercise in pointlessness and aggravation.

this has been going on for a while. i'm not saying 'denying they are wrestling' is logical of particularly effective, I'm just pointing out that re-naming is a common strategy and that the WWE specifically has been trying to pull away from the common perception of wrestling pretty much since Vince took over.

Rock n Wrestling was the same thing. The Attitude Era was the same thing. And based on those successes, yes it's worked.

If you guys want to put your noses up at Vince trying to change the image of his company, then you pretty much have to deny the success he's had since the first Wrestlemania, because it's all part of the same thing.

He may not have been as obvious, but he's been doing everything possible to not be ' a wrestling promotion' since the get go.

Calling the E 'an entertainment' is just an extension of that policy.

because I'm fairly certain there were Quite a few fans who complained about the WWF changing it's identity back in the ealry 80s...but it worked. If you want to say now - 30 years after the fact - that it makes no sense then i'd like to know exactly where you think the wrestling industry would be NOW if the WW(W)F hadnt tried to separate itself from the industry back then,.

[PeterHilton]

I don't think they abandoned ALL risk. That would be unfair statement... but the thing is, their version of "entertaiment" only appeals to a mile-wide but inch-deep fanbase. And when the economy and/or the wrestliing industry isn't so hot, these fans are simply not going to be there.



That 'mile wide' thing is hard for business people to ignore. Especially business people with shareholders they have to answer to.

[Jaysin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_cxTzPtuD0

Husky Harris's apparant new Mankind like gimmick in FCW.

People keep saying it looks like a hockey mask, but it resembles Paul Gray's mask more to me.
http://www.metalinsider.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Paul_gray-199x300.jpg

[ampulator]

That 'mile wide' thing is hard for business people to ignore. Especially business people with shareholders they have to answer to.
I'm not asking them to ignore it. I'm saying they are relying on it too much. You must always have a solid base you can rely when things go bad, and the WWE is slowly chipping away at their own base.

And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't.

[1234]

People keep saying it looks like a hockey mask, but it resembles Paul Gray's mask more to me.
http://www.metalinsider.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Paul_gray-199x300.jpg

It does look similar to that. I hope Husky can pull the gimmick off because I like him, but am already skeptical. His motions looked forced, his Stunner wasnt brilliant, and I despise people who wrestle in street clothes (I even dislike them just wearing a shirt like Big Show has done recently).

But like I say, good luck to Husky.

[Jaysin]

I can't complain...he was wearing a Misfit shirt. :D

[PeterHilton]

I'm not asking them to ignore it. I'm saying they are relying on it too much. You must always have a solid base you can rely when things go bad, and the WWE is slowly chipping away at their own base.

i agree. Again...just pointing out that there was a method to the way they structured things and the type of product they've created.

Stories liek this come out and internet wrestling fans react like "OH NOEZ just another example of why Vince is soooo stupid!!!!" when the fact remains that the product the E has created is wanted more than the stuff the IWC thinks people want.

They misjudge the market. And they are incredibly slow to react. But they know what they're doing more times than not.

[PeterHilton]

And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't.

:rolleyes:

And don't you think they are doing it because they think it's 'good?' you really think that they haven't done their homework before changes are made?

[ampulator]

:rolleyes:

And don't you think they are doing it because they think it's 'good?' you really think that they haven't done their homework before changes are made?
McGillicutty (sic). Need I say more? And, yes, I don't think they have done their homework before changes are made. The names they give people are terribl.e.

[Fantabulous]

For the record, I'm not turning my nose up at Vince changing the image of his company. I'm just pointing out that, right now, it simply isn't doing what he thinks it will do. It hasn't changed any perceptions of WWE (the TMZ situation should tell you that) and it hasn't done wonders for their business.

[PeterHilton]

McGillicutty (sic). Need I say more? And, yes, I don't think they have done their homework before changes are made. The names they give people are terribl.e.

So your stance is that a publicly traded, billion dollar, multi-national corporation doesn't do market research (or doesn't do enough market research) because some of the names they give wrestlers are iffy?

Well there you go...

[PeterHilton]

For the record, I'm not turning my nose up at Vince changing the image of his company. I'm just pointing out that, right now, it simply isn't doing what he thinks it will do. It hasn't changed any perceptions of WWE (the TMZ situation should tell you that) and it hasn't done wonders for their business.

Maybe.

But the underlying philosophy worked for the last 30 years, his promotion is the most powerful in the world BECAUSE he wanted to separate himself from the wrestling industry, and i'm not sure that NOT following that philosohy would do anything for the WWE either.

[ampulator]

So your stance is that a publicly traded, billion dollar, multi-national corporation doesn't do market research (or doesn't do enough market research) because some of the names they give wrestlers are iffy?

Well there you go...
No, they do market research. They just pick their names incorrectly. That's a huge difference. Just because they do market research on a business level doesn't mean they have the best minds on the creative level.

That's a strawman argument. Don't misconstrue my words.

Maybe.

But the underlying philosophy worked for the last 30 years, his promotion is the most powerful in the world BECAUSE he wanted to separate himself from the wrestling industry, and i'm not sure that NOT following that philosohy would do anything for the WWE either.

Look, no one disputes that. But what we dispute is the WWE needs to change with the times, and they haven't. It might be going back towards more wrestling, it might more towards something more realistic. But WWE's answer to go back to a barebones 80's style product with modern workers hasn't worked. And it's showed.

[PeterHilton]

No, they do market research. They just pick their names correctly. That's a huge difference. Just because they do market research on a business level doesn't mean they have the best minds on the creative level.

That's a strawman argument. Don't miscontrue my words.

Listen..I'm not going to play 'let's name logical terms' here. I'm not in debate club.

This is what you said: "And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't."

'Good' is an incredibly subjective, incredibly relative term. Really, who are you to decide what is 'good?' It's just your opinion

My point was that they obviously make decisions based on some kind of homework or forethought. Now, whether or not you think is good is totally up to you, but to just dismisss the idea that a company that big doesn't do any research before naming their characters is nuts.

just because YOU dont like the names does not mean that they just pulled them out of a hat.

[PeterHilton]

Look, no one disputes that. But what we dispute is the WWE needs to change with the times, and they haven't. It might be going back towards more wrestling, it might more towards something more realistic. But WWE's answer to go back to a barebones 80's style product with modern workers hasn't worked. And it's showed.

Considering there's not a single bit of proof that wrestling fans want to move to a more 'modern' or 'realistic' style of ringwork, I doubt that.

But you're right...so far the move to PG hasn't panned out.

Not sure what that has to do with emphasizing the entetainment aspect.

[ampulator]

Listen..I'm not going to play 'let's name logical terms' here. I'm not in debate club.

This is what you said: "And like I said before, they can rename and rebrand all they want, but it HAS to be good, or don't it if isn't."

'Good' is an incredibly subjective, incredibly relative term. Really, who are you to decide what is 'good?' It's just your opinion

My point was that they obviously make decisions based on some kind of homework or forethought. Now, whether or not you think is good is totally up to you, but to just dismisss the idea that a company that big doesn't do any research before naming their characters is nuts.

just because YOU dont like the names does not mean that they just pulled them out of a hat.
WWE isn't just any big company. If I was saying big companies was doing this, that's one thing. But I'm talking specifically the WWE. And if you read the names of their FCW roster, it DOES sound like the pulled it out of a hat. And whether YOU like it or not, it's not like WWE is known to do something they think is right, all evidence be darned. And I'm not the only that thinks the names are bad. some are good. But seriously, McGillicutty? I can understand why they didn't go with Joe Hennig, but come on. At least try to do a good name.

Considering there's not a single bit of proof that wrestling fans want to move to a more 'modern' or 'realistic' style of ringwork, I doubt that.

But you're right...so far the move to PG hasn't panned out.

Not sure what that has to do with emphasizing the entetainment aspect.

It does and it doesn't. People are bored with entertainment wrestling, or to be accurate, 80's style rock'n'wrestling entertainment wrestling. Bottom line, though, the WWE's product isn't diverse enough. It caters to only a few audiences, and that hurts it. They can make the product more diverse without adding that much risk. But WWE is so dead-set on being an entertainment company, they need to remember, at the end of the day, everyone OUTSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling, and everyone INSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling. They can't change or even hide that fact.

WWE has been making some attempts to broaden their product (more Lucha, please), but some of it's token changes.

[PeterHilton]

WWE isn't just any big company. If I was saying big companies was doing this, that's one thing. But I'm talking specifically the WWE. And if you read the names of their FCW roster, it DOES sound like the pulled it out of a hat. And whether YOU like it or not, it's not like WWE is known to do something they think is right, all evidence be darned. And I'm not the only that thinks the names are bad. some are good. But seriously, McGillicutty? I can understand why they didn't go with Joe Hennig, but come on. At least try to do a good name.

You're making a big assumption based on the relative tastes of a small sampling of their viewers.

It does and it doesn't. People are bored with entertainment wrestling, or to be accurate, 80's style rock'n'wrestling entertainment wrestling. Bottom line, though, the WWE's product isn't diverse enough. It caters to only a few audiences, and that hurts it. They can make the product more diverse without adding that much risk. But WWE is so dead-set on being an entertainment company, they need to remember, at the end of the day, everyone OUTSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling, and everyone INSIDE of wrestling sees them as pro-wrestling. They can't change or even hide that fact.

WWE has been making some attempts to broaden their product (more Lucha, please), but some of it's token changes.

All true. But I doubt that adding more diverse ringwork will really create that much of a surge in popularity and - more than likely - if/when the E bounces back, it will have a lot more to do with finding new characters that engage the audience rather than adding a bunch of flippy indy guys.

[ampulator]

But that's not my point. Entertainment wrestling has been done. What else can they do? More entertainment wrestling?

[PeterHilton]

But that's not my point. Entertainment wrestling has been done. What else can they do? More entertainment wrestling?

C;mon..you don't really think that ringwork is the issue?

Look at the E's history (heck, look at the history of the industry): the biggest stars..the ones that drive the business and create mainstream popularity...have rarely been great at what net fans consider "great ringwork"

I dont see any giant surge in popularity being achieved by adding different wrestling styles. There's no underground wave of hardcore wrestling fans out there that are going to push the WWE back into huge ratings and buy rates.

So yes..more 'entertainment wrestling.' just make it actually entertaining

[ampulator]

C;mon..you don't really think that ringwork is the issue?

Look at the E's history (heck, look at the history of the industry): the biggest stars..the ones that drive the business and create mainstream popularity...have rarely been great at what net fans consider "great ringwork"

I dont see any giant surge in popularity being achieved by adding different wrestling styles. There's no underground wave of hardcore wrestling fans out there that are going to push the WWE back into huge ratings and buy rates.

So yes..more 'entertainment wrestling.' just make it actually entertaining
Do I think ringwork is the issue? Absolutely not.
Do I think they need t switch to a bit more ringwork? Absolutely yes.

And what more entertainment wrestling? they pushed entertainment wrestling to the limit during the Attitude Era.

To better eleborate, WWE is now like this:

Key Feature: Mainstream
Heavy: Traditional
Medium: Comedy

To push it anymore, it woud like this:

Key Feature: Mainstream, Comedy
Heavy: None
Medium: Cult, Risque, Lucha Libre

And considering the WWE has dialed back their Cult and Risque, I don't see how WWE can be even MORE entertainment-driven, other than making Comedy a Key part of their program. And since WWE's poor writing when comes to Comedy, every attempt they have tried has been fallen back then.

There are three ways (though not exclusive from each other) that WWE can go. WWE CAN'T do more entertainment. Or I should say, they WON'T. To do so means they bring back some risky elements. They went to have their cake and eat it too, in this case.

[PoisonedSuperman]

Maybe I'm a minority but I don't really watch wrestling for the wrestling, I enjoy the characters, interviews and skits more then anything else. I too find the comedy dumb but I wouldn't watch wrestling much if it was like ROH. I got a few of their first dvds and didn't like it.

I used to buy the 5 (10?) dollar a week pay per views from TNA and I liked the wrestling there because they were doin some crazy moves I never saw (Sabin, Michael Shane, a few others) but they always had entertainment.



I remember when CM Punk was Raven's lackey and I would log on the EWR message boards and everyone thought he was a wrestling God. I never knew was so special about it, but now that he's got the ball in the wwe and cutting great promos I like him a lot.

[PeterHilton]

Maybe I'm a minority but I don't really watch wrestling for the wrestling, I enjoy the characters, interviews and skits more then anything else. I too find the comedy dumb but I wouldn't watch wrestling much if it was like ROH. I got a few of their first dvds and didn't like it.



No. YOU are the majority. Net fans just don't like admitting that

[PeterHilton]

There are three ways (though not exclusive from each other) that WWE can go. WWE CAN'T do more entertainment. Or I should say, they WON'T. To do so means they bring back some risky elements. They went to have their cake and eat it too, in this case.

TEW terms don't translate to reality: I'll just say that I think they have to bring back some of the more risque elements and faster paced storytelling.

New styles in the ring can't hurt, but they won't make ahuge difference regardless of how well they're received.

[joehelmer]

I also watch wrestling more for the characters, for example before The Miz was doing this character as he's doing now is very good, now I can't wait for RAW this week to see what happens in the feud between Cena, The Miz and The Rock. And next week will be awesome with The Rock being back live.

I even watched RAW last week even though I didn't want to see Snooki in WWE, as I didn't liked the Jersey Shore segments that TNA does. But Snooki actually did a good work, even though I probably won't watch that match at WrestleMania. If I do it's all for Morrison.

[PoisonedSuperman]

I also watch wrestling more for the characters, for example before The Miz was doing this character as he's doing now is very good, now I can't wait for RAW this week to see what happens in the feud between Cena, The Miz and The Rock. And next week will be awesome with The Rock being back live.

I even watched RAW last week even though I didn't want to see Snooki in WWE, as I didn't liked the Jersey Shore segments that TNA does. But Snooki actually did a good work, even though I probably won't watch that match at WrestleMania. If I do it's all for Morrison.


Yes!! I am waiting for the start of RAW just so I can see what happens with Miz as well. When he came out as the Rock last week.... that was amazing.

[ampulator]

TEW terms don't translate to reality: I'll just say that I think they have to bring back some of the more risque elements and faster paced storytelling.

New styles in the ring can't hurt, but they won't make ahuge difference regardless of how well they're received.
The thing is, though, WWE needs to broaden it's fanbase. Relying on one base is what got Vince's 70's and 80's competitors in trouble. Vince went Mainstream gain more fans. Today, he's in the same situation, except he has no internal competition to force his hand (for better or for worse). Vince, of all people, should know that have varied fanbase can help soften the blows of bad economy or downturns in wrestling.

As for not making a huge difference, we don't know if we don't try it. At the very worst, it will make a minimal positive impact, like you said. At it's best, though, Vince may have found his next hit product that he can use for 10 or more years until he needs to freshen up again. He has little to lose, and a lot to gain. At this point, the risk is minimal, and the reward can be potentially great.

I also watch wrestling more for the characters, for example before The Miz was doing this character as he's doing now is very good, now I can't wait for RAW this week to see what happens in the feud between Cena, The Miz and The Rock. And next week will be awesome with The Rock being back live.

I even watched RAW last week even though I didn't want to see Snooki in WWE, as I didn't liked the Jersey Shore segments that TNA does. But Snooki actually did a good work, even though I probably won't watch that match at WrestleMania. If I do it's all for Morrison.

The thing is, only the Miz nearly fits the bill of what the WWE wants (not all of it, but most of it). Every other worker just can't fit the product well.

[tommyb]

Yes!! I am waiting for the start of RAW just so I can see what happens with Miz as well. When he came out as the Rock last week.... that was amazing.

This is what the WWE needs. Not a dramatic change in the product, or even to produce something that is that much higher in quality. All they need is a storyline, or a superstar which catches everyone's attention. It could be that they do that by bringing something radically different and new to the table, but it could just as easily be within their existing framework. They need one lucky, 3:16 moment to set alight and excite everyone. Everything else seems that much better, and other superstars get that much more over, when there is something getting major positive attention in your product.

[ampulator]

This is what the WWE needs. Not a dramatic change in the product, or even to produce something that is that much higher in quality. All they need is a storyline, or a superstar which catches everyone's attention. It could be that they do that by bringing something radically different and new to the table, but it could just as easily be within their existing framework. They need one lucky, 3:16 moment to set alight and excite everyone. Everything else seems that much better, and other superstars get that much more over, when there is something getting major positive attention in your product.
I'm not sure that's correct. Miz isn't more of the same, at least me. He is sort of the new generation of WWE stars that needs.

And the thing is, WWE is only postponing the inevitable-wrestling has changed every 10 years or so, give or take. It's time.

[TheLeviticalLawKid3]

Teaming with Big Show is probably the only thing that could get me interested in Kane. And, by the way, The Big Red Machine has got a GUT on him now, I've noticed.

[ShaunGBD]

Who was that girl? O his wife...

I don't think it was her. I seen pics

Edit: I looked it up, was wrong

[TakerNGN74]

A while back when Triple H and Randy Orton were feuding going into WM 25 they did a segment where Randy was in his house with his wife and Triple H came and kicked his ass. In tonights segment with Randy Orton's "Wife" I don't think that the woman in the WM 25 segment was the same as the one tonight. Of course he could have gotten a divorce you never know but if he didn't then its just weird.

[ShaunGBD]

His wife tonight is his real wife.

[milamber]

I think WWE should break for a month over Christmas and drop to 10 PPVs each year. With the increased time between the Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania, the quality of RAW and Smackdown has increased, IMO. More time to focus on storyline building.

And if they stopped showing replays of incidents that happened 1 minute ago (barring shock angles and matches finishes) and 15 minute replays from the other brand's show etc. they could fit more wrestling.

[milamber]

Thanks for coming DiBiase!

The divas division is in such a poor state that now even Cole takes the mickey out of it on air. I guess the creative team have stopped even trying to fix it. I did enjoy Eve attacking Cole, though.

And The Corre take on Santino/Kozlov yet again because the tag team division has such incredible depth. Admittedly I do enjoy watching Gabriel and Kozlov. Kane/Show made things more interesting but the partnership won't last long. The mixed tag match was more entertaining.

Love the Sin Cara promos!

CM Punk baiting Orton was good. In-ring beatdown angles are so overused so it's nice to see some variation.

The Miz continues to be awesome. Cena continues to cut good angles. They better not blow it. Miz needs to beat Cena clean at Mania.

Decent angle-based Raw let down by a lack of quality matches.

[lazorbeak]

No heel ever needs to beat a babyface clean at the biggest event of the year.

[joehelmer]

No heel ever needs to beat a babyface clean at the biggest event of the year.

Maybe not, but it would be cool if The Miz did. Mostly because I don't want to see Cena as champ right now.

But I'm sure The Rock will get involved in that match somehow.

[20LEgend]

Sorry, how is Kane face anyone have clips, seems rushed :(