The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Fantabulous]

I'd like to meet the TV executive who would sign off on, much less seriously suggest to his boss, the cancellation of a show doing 4.5's.

If you want to get rid of a show that's doing strong ratings, pull a Murder She Wrote to kill the ratings and then you can get it canned.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I'd say Orton threw a tantrum about being shipped to Smackdown and so got the title as a result. Why else would they immediately give it to him.

[Fantabulous]

Why else would they immediately give it to him.

Because they feel more comfortable building a show around someone they consider one of their two biggest stars?

[TheEdgeOfReason]

And make the rest of the brand look like a joke?

Its not hard to have a small feud leading up to the ppv and have him win it there. Having your big star gunning for the belt and holding it are the same thing. Either way he's selling the ppv as the participant in the title match.

[Hashasheen]

I'd say Orton threw a tantrum about being shipped to Smackdown and so got the title as a result. Why else would they immediately give it to him.

Doubt it. Orton has to be loving the fact he's the top-dog on Smackdown. Undertaker isn't there every week, Triple H is now the guy in between the talent and Vince, and Cena's dominating Raw. He can't get under Cena's shadow on Raw, but on Smackdown? That's his brand now.

[critical-23]

Doubt it. Orton has to be loving the fact he's the top-dog on Smackdown. Undertaker isn't there every week, Triple H is now the guy in between the talent and Vince, and Cena's dominating Raw. He can't get under Cena's shadow on Raw, but on Smackdown? That's his brand now.

Should be Christian's brand IMHO but oh well. Don't see the title change as anything bad really as this is WWE has been doing for so long so I am not shocked or even mad at this turn of events. Although this could make Christian a heel and fued with Orton over the title.

[Astil]

A day later:

They did this to Edge too (Not this fast, but still). Maybe it won't be so bad...

[March]

Saw the Smackdown spoilers.

Ugh. Screw Orton.

I hope Christian turns heel and comes back with a vengeance.

Also, from Dave Meltzer today..

Without giving away the spoiler in this report (it is available elsewhere on the site in the Smackdown review), there is a ton of negative feedback directed to WWE on the decision, to the point it has shocked those in the company the vehemence of it.

[ampulator]

A day later:

They did this to Edge too (Not this fast, but still). Maybe it won't be so bad...
It's not so much this action itself, as WWE has been pulling this kind of crap for too long. Some have been worse, some have been not as bad, but it's a consistent pattern. I expect better of them, but apparently, they don't really expect better of themselves.

[BHK1978]

It's not so much this action itself, as WWE has been pulling this kind of crap for too long. Some have been worse, some have been not as bad, but it's a consistent pattern. I expect better of them, but apparently, they don't really expect better of themselves.

Yes and they have been doing it going back to the 1970's. Look at the rather quick changes they made back then every time they wanted to take the belt from one face and give it to another.

You had:

Ivan Koloff (Bet some are shocked to see him as a former WWF Champion.) beat Bruno, only to drop the title twenty-one days later to Pedro Morales.

Pedro held it for some time until he dropped it to Stan "The Man" Stasiak who held the title for a grand total of nine days until he dropped to Bruno.

Then there is the Iron Sheik beating Bob Backlund only to drop the title to Hulk Hongan twenty-eight days later.

Out of the pre-Hogan champions the only heel that had a decent run was Superstar Billy Graham. The people who held the title post-Hogan's first run as the champion hardly matters because the title reigns became shorter and shorter.

When you look back at that it hardly seems a big deal for everyone to get worked up about. Yes I would rather have Christian as the champion because he was great in that role in TNA. However, the powers that be do not agree and it is their company so they can do what they want. I really do not care anyway because I never watch Smackdown and I hardly watch Raw.

Part of me wonders if the Christian thing has something to do with him bolting to TNA. Vince is known for holding a grudge.

[OctoberRaven]

Pedro held it for some time until he dropped it to Stan "The Man" Stasiak who held the title for a grand total of nine days until he dropped to Bruno.

And the moral of the story is that little Jimmy Reso will grow up to wrestle in tights made to look like briefs and get fired for recording private conversations.

[Eisen-verse]

I heard about Christian dropping the title; however, to be honest, I understand what the WWE is doing here. They moved Orton for a reason; so he could become the John Cena-figure of Smackdown (so says WWE officials within; from wrestlezone.com). In that case, it's entirely smart and, in no way, has anything to do with Orton flipping out or anything; actually quite the opposite (as he's quickly become a locker room leader on the show I guess).

Would I have liked to see him hold onto the title for longer (Christian)? Sure. Did it make sense to give him a run, banking on the Shawn Michaels - "Boyhood dream" scenario? Definitely. Do I HATE the WWE for making the switch? No.

I guess, sadly, my 'hopes and dreams' for the WWE have fallen by the wayside long ago. I'd LOVE for all decisions to make sense from a wrestling standpoint but, in all reality, they don't necessarily care about making sure their storylines are the greatest of all-time. While it would drive sales, possibly, in the end, they are looking to further their brand.

At the end of the day,

Randy Orton = marketable to a larger audience; is going to be the face of smackdown for, at least, the next year.

Christian = a serviceable upper-midcarder who can put on a great match; not entirely a person to turn into a 'star' as he's already had his time before the audience (probably best to bring in new names, faces, that we don't have a good decade's worth of experience with).

Cheers.

E-V

[ampulator]

Yes and they have been doing it going back to the 1970's. Look at the rather quick changes they made back then every time they wanted to take the belt from one face and give it to another.

You had:

Ivan Koloff (Bet some are shocked to see him as a former WWF Champion.) beat Bruno, only to drop the title twenty-one days later to Pedro Morales.

Pedro held it for some time until he dropped it to Stan "The Man" Stasiak who held the title for a grand total of nine days until he dropped to Bruno.

Then there is the Iron Sheik beating Bob Backlund only to drop the title to Hulk Hongan twenty-eight days later.

Out of the pre-Hogan champions the only heel that had a decent run was Superstar Billy Graham. The people who held the title post-Hogan's first run as the champion hardly matters because the title reigns became shorter and shorter.

When you look back at that it hardly seems a big deal for everyone to get worked up about. Yes I would rather have Christian as the champion because he was great in that role in TNA. However, the powers that be do not agree and it is their company so they can do what they want. I really do not care anyway because I never watch Smackdown and I hardly watch Raw.

Part of me wonders if the Christian thing has something to do with him bolting to TNA. Vince is known for holding a grudge.
You are absolutely correct-except you missing the part of the point. The point isn't it hasn't happened before-it has, as you demonstrated. The issue is bad booking, and it was unnecessarily quick. They couldn't wait until the next Pay Per View? Really? Even if they plan to turn Christian Heel, this is just the wrong way to do it. You slow-build a change, not force it through. And on top of that, the frquencey where they do this is much, much, much more than back in the 70's.

That's the issue-bad booking. I don't disagree with the move, I disagree with the timing and the quickness of the move, and I diagree with the frequency where they book stupidly.

[Eisen-verse]

You are absolutely correct-except you missing the part of the point. The point isn't it hasn't happened before-it has, as you demonstrated. The issue is bad booking, and it was unnecessarily quick. They couldn't wait until the next Pay Per View? Really? Even if they plan to turn Christian Heel, this is just the wrong way to do it. You slow-build a change, not force it through. And on top of that, the frquencey where they do this is much, much, much more than back in the 70's.

That's the issue-bad booking. I don't disagree with the move, I disagree with the timing and the quickness of the move, and I diagree with the frequency where they book stupidly.

You do raise a good point though. While I agree with the move, from a brand-perspective for Smackdown, it could have been done in a month or two; building the match up in which to make it seems worthy of a victory.

Cheers.

E-V

[Russo]

I'd like to meet the TV executive who would sign off on, much less seriously suggest to his boss, the cancellation of a show doing 4.5's.

If you want to get rid of a show that's doing strong ratings, pull a Murder She Wrote to kill the ratings and then you can get it canned.

It's all in the networks direction if WCW was doing 4.5's it would of most likely still have been droped because when aol merged with time warner they didnt want a wrestling show.

[Remianen]

I'd like to meet the TV executive who would sign off on, much less seriously suggest to his boss, the cancellation of a show doing 4.5's.

If you want to get rid of a show that's doing strong ratings, pull a Murder She Wrote to kill the ratings and then you can get it canned.

I've learned something from working with TV people the last couple years. Ratings don't always translate to profits. If you're pulling 4.5s but the demographics of that audience are not attractive to advertisers (read: they're not 18-35/18-49s. Kinda like the Murder She Wrote you mentioned), you might draw slightly higher ad rates but that won't make up for the lower yield products being advertised. So a show drawing 2.5s but watched primarily by the demos advertisers are fiending to reach, is more valuable than your 4.5 drawing show with Depends ads fueling it. It's why the Daily Show and Colbert Report are the darlings of Comedy Central and why Spike is held so highly by the parent company. Spike doesn't draw ratings like some of the other channels but they draw the right demos to really draw money. Doesn't make much sense to me but it has to do with ad rates being higher for shows that draw a certain demographic audience as opposed to others.

It's one reason why Scripps ditched the Fine Living Network and turned it into the Cooking Channel. Fine Living was drawing too many old people that advertisers don't care much about (and it was cannibalizing the Travel Channel, which also draws that less desirable demo). Cooking Channel draws an audience closer to their other property (Food Network) but the upper end of the 18-49 bracket ("35-49 year old established professionals with domestic leanings" was the term used). It's why people like Tyler Florence, Guy Fieri, and Jamie Oliver are being "pushed" now while Emeril (their former Cena-type) takes a step back.

Anyway, I hope Kia's being paid well since I'm betting they'll be putting the Barbies over her by year's end.

[djthefunkchris]

If no one beats Kharma by year's end, there isn't no point in having anyone else.... IF someone expects her to go unbeaten that long, that's really pushing for a let down. IF you actually think she's going to turn into a jobber, I can only see that happening if she offends someone important (not that I don't see that happening).

I see her losing though, for sure. How would you get heat built up for a feud (if they ever have a legit women's fued) if there is no chance in her being beat?

[ampulator]

I've learned something from working with TV people the last couple years. Ratings don't always translate to profits. If you're pulling 4.5s but the demographics of that audience are not attractive to advertisers (read: they're not 18-35/18-49s. Kinda like the Murder She Wrote you mentioned), you might draw slightly higher ad rates but that won't make up for the lower yield products being advertised. So a show drawing 2.5s but watched primarily by the demos advertisers are fiending to reach, is more valuable than your 4.5 drawing show with Depends ads fueling it. It's why the Daily Show and Colbert Report are the darlings of Comedy Central and why Spike is held so highly by the parent company. Spike doesn't draw ratings like some of the other channels but they draw the right demos to really draw money. Doesn't make much sense to me but it has to do with ad rates being higher for shows that draw a certain demographic audience as opposed to others.

It's one reason why Scripps ditched the Fine Living Network and turned it into the Cooking Channel. Fine Living was drawing too many old people that advertisers don't care much about (and it was cannibalizing the Travel Channel, which also draws that less desirable demo). Cooking Channel draws an audience closer to their other property (Food Network) but the upper end of the 18-49 bracket ("35-49 year old established professionals with domestic leanings" was the term used). It's why people like Tyler Florence, Guy Fieri, and Jamie Oliver are being "pushed" now while Emeril (their former Cena-type) takes a step back.

Anyway, I hope Kia's being paid well since I'm betting they'll be putting the Barbies over her by year's end.
Interesting, coming from a TV Guy. But from what I heard, the network executives just plain didn't want a wrestling program on their network. It was before the merger, too. And after the merger, after Ted Turner lost power, there were even MORE executives that didn't want it, for various reasons.

Honestly, speaking, from their point of view, in this case, they were right to axe Nitro. They were losing money on WCW, and WCW and Nitro weren't performing up to par with their expectations. If you think about it that way, and the fact they didn't want it, and Ted losing all power, it's not a surprise they axed NItro.

[Lexa90]

It seems like Alicia Foxx was injured at the SD tapings. Let's just hope that Kharma wasn't the one who injured her... :confused:

[Comradebot]

What a frakking ridiculous decision. Between the sheer stupidity of the Cena draft shenanigans, and now THIS (on top of the whole silliness of their not being wrestling in the company or wrestlers or whatever)... WWE needs to get their crap straightened out. I've been very vocal the last couple years that they've stepped their game up from where it was in the years following the demise of WCW, but right now... ugh.


Christian is twelves times the worker Randy Orton is. When he got the belt I thought "finally, little Christian's dedication to the job, excellent in-ring work ethic, and supremely awesome charisma has FINALLY paid off!" And what do they do? Spit in his face. Randy Orton blows. GJ WWE on giving the belt to a guy who can't cut a respectable promo to save his life. And it's not like he really NEEDED the title win or anything. And it's not like the WWE needs to keep Christian strong to help keep their Main Event scene strong. Considering his politics backstage in the past, part of me wonders if Blandy Boreton himself is partially to blame for this.

Stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid, stupid. Get your crap back together WWE, because right now yall clearly have no idea what you're doing.

[Nathers7]

Orton tweeted that Christian will get a rematch lol. Everyone on Facebook and Twitter probably forced them into doing this though, they realised the amount of hatred Orton would get if Christian was shoved back to the midcard. Orton is more over than Christian but even Orton fans think this is stupid, and WWE don't want both of their top babyfaces getting mixed reactions from the crowd.

[juggaloninjalee]

Orton tweeted that Christian will get a rematch lol. Everyone on Facebook and Twitter probably forced them into doing this though, they realised the amount of hatred Orton would get if Christian was shoved back to the midcard. Orton is more over than Christian but even Orton fans think this is stupid, and WWE don't want both of their top babyfaces getting mixed reactions from the crowd.

Even if he does it's not like they will put the belt right back on him though.

[Fantabulous]

Honestly, speaking, from their point of view, in this case, they were right to axe Nitro. They were losing money on WCW, and WCW and Nitro weren't performing up to par with their expectations. If you think about it that way, and the fact they didn't want it, and Ted losing all power, it's not a surprise they axed NItro.
Which they were able to do be because the company was in such poor shape from being booked into the ground.

I'm baffled that people are seriously claiming that a profitable WCW with strong ratings would have got canned, especially when it's a position that's never been a seriously put forward before by anyone. But it's a viewpoint I can see some people are going to stick with so I'll say no more on the matter.

[Nathers7]

Even if he does it's not like they will put the belt right back on him though.

I would be happy if Christian got a long 2 month main event fued just as long as he's not being buried constantly by Orton (CM Punk suffered this), I don't know why WWE thinks we like seeing Orton bury people more talented than he is.

[ewanite]

Fusient investors began to back out after TNT dropped Nitro, seeing the show as the main asset of the company. With no investors, no network wanted to take the risk of buying the rights to show a promotion with no investors (bringing in modern-day parallels again - this is why Dixie was vital in TNA's rise. Wrestling companies can lose money fast)

[milamber]

Update on CM Punk's Future With WWE (http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/exclusive-update-on-cm-punks-future-with-wwe-129397)

Not sure how accurate this article is, but it suggests that Punk is holding out on a new contract because WWE want him to sign over the rights to his name ala Bryan Danielson.

[ZMAN]

I wouldn't do it if I were Punk. Sounds like a horror story in the making. Punk gives WWE rights to his name, gets fired two years later, and has to wander the indies as Brother Punk.

[LoNdOn]

I wouldn't do it if I were Punk. Sounds like a horror story in the making. Punk gives WWE rights to his name, gets fired two years later, and has to wander the indies as Brother Punk.

I respect Punk if that is the reason behind his decision on holding out.

Worst case scenario, he has to call himself PB Punk :)

[juggaloninjalee]

Punk is being smart by not giving up the rights to the name he has had since before the WWE signed him. He would be smart to keep the name and refuse to give it up. He could always go back to ROH and keep his name and value.

[lazorbeak]

Good for Punk for holding out but at the end of the day if I were him I'd sell the name rights for a significant bonus up front, then sign a new contract with promises and guarantees that make it clear that he's going to be a top name for years to come. At the end of the day, he's making real money working with the WWE, and the difference between working as CM Punk and PJ Brooks is worth maybe what, 10K a year on the indy's, if that? On the other hand, he can make probably the equivalent of a year's salary by selling the name rights, and it sends a message that he's willing to be a "company guy" and commit to working with WWE for years to come. It's not necessarily a no-brainer decision, but unless WWE is (stupidly) unwilling to make him a generous offer for the name rights, I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to give them up.

And it's not like you can't buy the rights back later if you've got the cash, the way The Rock did.

[cappyboy]

Good for Punk for holding out but at the end of the day if I were him I'd sell the name rights for a significant bonus up front, then sign a new contract with promises and guarantees that make it clear that he's going to be a top name for years to come. At the end of the day, he's making real money working with the WWE, and the difference between working as CM Punk and PJ Brooks is worth maybe what, 10K a year on the indy's, if that? On the other hand, he can make probably the equivalent of a year's salary by selling the name rights, and it sends a message that he's willing to be a "company guy" and commit to working with WWE for years to come. It's not necessarily a no-brainer decision, but unless WWE is (stupidly) unwilling to make him a generous offer for the name rights, I don't see why he wouldn't be willing to give them up.

And it's not like you can't buy the rights back later if you've got the cash, the way The Rock did.

I do. Really it all comes down to what Brooks wants. If he's looking for career stability and wants to be that company guy, you're right on. Sell the name rights and then save some dough in the event you have seller's remorse and/or end up in a Dudley Boys/Hardcore Holly situation. The old trust but verify thing if you will.

But if he still wants the freedom to explore other pastures, he's much better served hanging on to the name rights. Being "CM Punk" has been very good to him. It's the only name of any value he's ever had. It's not like his cult started as "PJ Brooks" and grew it when he became "CM Punk" and then WWE picked him up. The potential value to both him and the next place he went is much higher if he's still able to be Punk. If he has to resort to an alternate name, the next place might miss out on the early returns as folks who'd otherwise pay to see him fail to realize he is in fact him. Which in turn could hurt his value to the next place. Since the reports are that Brooks is fighting to retain his own name rights, it suggests to me he doesn't view WWE as a final landing place just yet. If that's true, it doesn't seem wise to me to get stuck holding an empty identity bag if you don't have to.

[ampulator]

Which they were able to do be because the company was in such poor shape from being booked into the ground.

I'm baffled that people are seriously claiming that a profitable WCW with strong ratings would have got canned, especially when it's a position that's never been a seriously put forward before by anyone. But it's a viewpoint I can see some people are going to stick with so I'll say no more on the matter.
Actually, I never claimed that. I just want to point that out. If they hadn't booked it the ground, they probably wouldn't have given it up. I always thought that. But you have to concede, at the very least, from their point of view, they were correct to do what they did. I've seen TV executives make stupid decisions before-this is was unhappy but fair decision on their part.

[juggaloninjalee]

I don't see Punk ever wrestling under a different name. He seems to me like Chris Jericho kinda. He can go do other things but the WWE would always welcome him back. He should sign the contract and make sure they take care of him for a long time.

[Fantabulous]

Actually, I never claimed that. I just want to point that out. If they hadn't booked it the ground, they probably wouldn't have given it up. I always thought that. But you have to concede, at the very least, from their point of view, they were correct to do what they did. I've seen TV executives make stupid decisions before-this is was unhappy but fair decision on their part.

Never intended to imply that you claimed that. Given the state WCW was in, yes, it was the correct decision to make. I probably would have made it myself, in his shoes. But a WCW making money and doing strong ratings? No way that gets cancelled outright.

[juggaloninjalee]

Never intended to imply that you claimed that. Given the state WCW was in, yes, it was the correct decision to make. I probably would have made it myself, in his shoes. But a WCW making money and doing strong ratings? No way that gets cancelled outright.

This whole WCW dieing thing comes up a lot. Many "experts" even disagree as to what would have happened.

[Fantabulous]

This whole WCW dying thing comes up a lot. Many "experts" even disagree as to what would have happened.
In what respect?

[juggaloninjalee]

In what respect?

Every couple of weeks people seem to bring up what/who/how WCW died/killed or whatever. I loved WCW and miss it. Just tired of it coming up and being debated that's all. Not saying you can't talk about it. Just seems like a topic that is controversial when it comes to the WHAT IFs. Do you know what I am saying?

[PoisonedSuperman]

Okay so read the spoilers or whatever. Fine. I don't really watch smackdown but if this is the official wwe discussion and this is the only place to talk about WWE, why must we be subjected to a thread that "*may contain spoilers*"?

Can't there be a spoiler thread or something ?

[The Shape]

Okay so read the spoilers or whatever. Fine. I don't really watch smackdown but if this is the official wwe discussion and this is the only place to talk about WWE, why must we be subjected to a thread that "*may contain spoilers*"?

Can't there be a spoiler thread or something ?

This is like the only time it's ever happened, because of something massive on Smackdown. The last times anything of this magnitude took place it was spoiled on WWE.com itself. Hardly a need for something separate.

[eayragt]

Update on CM Punk's Future With WWE (http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/article/exclusive-update-on-cm-punks-future-with-wwe-129397)

Not sure how accurate this article is, but it suggests that Punk is holding out on a new contract because WWE want him to sign over the rights to his name ala Bryan Danielson.

Good for him. But it does make you wonder why WWE had him wrestle as CM Punk in the first place - it's not as if getting wrestlers in under new names is something new (it's been what... 8 years since WWE went on it's massive trademarking campaign).

[OctoberRaven]

Probably because he agreed to using his name.

Really shows how confident he was that he was going to do well that the didn't use a different name. If things didn't pan out (and honestly, it did seem that way until he broke the Curse of Jobbing To Bob Holly), he might have ended up in TNA as PB Jelly right now.

[liontamer]

No, Nitro being written by a complete idiot for three months and then six more months the following year and driving even the hardest of the hardcore fans away is why we're not watching Nitro any more.

But hey; all they needed was a credible babyface on top and they'd have come up roses.

true to an extent, but before the attitude era (long before the merger) WCW owned WWE for a good year and a half. If not for the rise of Stone Cold, the Rock and DX, I've heard numerous times that WCW may have purchased WWE or at least won the battle and have a hard time thinking they'd have been cancelled as top dog.

It wasn't that fact that the Rock, DX, or austin won lots of matches or wrestled particularly well that got fans to turn the tide back to WWE, it was their personalities and on screen shananigans. And for the record I do think HHH is right and that WCW should have let DX into Nitro. Ratings would have gone through the roof.

[lazorbeak]

I do. Really it all comes down to what Brooks wants. If he's looking for career stability and wants to be that company guy, you're right on. Sell the name rights and then save some dough in the event you have seller's remorse and/or end up in a Dudley Boys/Hardcore Holly situation. The old trust but verify thing if you will.

But if he still wants the freedom to explore other pastures, he's much better served hanging on to the name rights. Being "CM Punk" has been very good to him. It's the only name of any value he's ever had. It's not like his cult started as "PJ Brooks" and grew it when he became "CM Punk" and then WWE picked him up. The potential value to both him and the next place he went is much higher if he's still able to be Punk. If he has to resort to an alternate name, the next place might miss out on the early returns as folks who'd otherwise pay to see him fail to realize he is in fact him. Which in turn could hurt his value to the next place. Since the reports are that Brooks is fighting to retain his own name rights, it suggests to me he doesn't view WWE as a final landing place just yet. If that's true, it doesn't seem wise to me to get stuck holding an empty identity bag if you don't have to.

Maybe I wasn't clear on this, but I already explained why the reasons you give are illusory. He can't make big money anywhere but WWE because there is nowhere else to go. He's already a main eventer in the biggest promotion in the world. And yes, he might lose some value to New Japan or TNA or whoever if he leaves without the name, but 1) he would have already been compensated up front, which will be useful while he takes a paycut to work a reduced schedule or promote his country music album, and 2) he would still make a decent payday, even if he doesn't move any needles (as TNA has proved with their big signings). I really have to question what century these fans of Punk who would buy a show if they knew he was appearing won't buy because they don't even know it's him: clearly not the 21st, where twitter, facebook and everything else make guys like Punk instantly accessible to their hardcore fanbase. It "doesn't seem wise" to take money for a name that you still get to use anyway, on the basis that you might want to leave one day and make far less money elsewhere, but want to remain slightly more marketable in the tiny pond you're moving to? I just don't see how that's even a competitive option. Like I said, if WWE is low-balling him or think they don't need him around (and they do, considering the age and injuries to most of their other ring general type main eventers), that's one thing, but it's naive to say "oh he should keep the name maybe he'll need it one day."

Oh, and OctoberRaven, as far as Punk not making it? You're joking, right? He was hyped to be the big new star of ECW when it was still being treated as a major brand, then went on an 8+ month streak where he was unbeaten in singles matches (as a babyface), and was featured in a survivor series match with DX where he, HBK and Triple H were the sole survivors. But yeah, it seemed like maybe he wouldn't work out there for a minute...

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah... I never could see where at any time it looked like Punk wasn't going to make it. He come to WWE as a "seemingly" star without ever being on WWE programming before. He had everyone fighting over him (Join us, no Join us instead!), and he didn't lose much at all. When he left ECW he come in as a star, not as a rookie. In fact, he never was shown as a rookie at any time that I can think of.

IF anyone in modern WWE was given a "fair" shake, he is one of the top one's IMO. There are a couple that WWE seems determined to make stars of, one way or another, no matter what though. Drew and Vickie's boyfriend seem to have been given chance after chance, even though no one will ever take those two seriously probably.

[ampulator]

Yeah... I never could see where at any time it looked like Punk wasn't going to make it. He come to WWE as a "seemingly" star without ever being on WWE programming before. He had everyone fighting over him (Join us, no Join us instead!), and he didn't lose much at all. When he left ECW he come in as a star, not as a rookie. In fact, he never was shown as a rookie at any time that I can think of.

IF anyone in modern WWE was given a "fair" shake, he is one of the top one's IMO. There are a couple that WWE seems determined to make stars of, one way or another, no matter what though. Drew and Vickie's boyfriend seem to have been given chance after chance, even though no one will ever take those two seriously probably.
It's not that he wasn't given the chance. I have no doubt that WWE has given him "chances". But my frustration is due to WWE being unable to adapt to, or at the very least, hvae the right mindset that, the kind of workers they want are a dime in a dozen, needles in mutliple haystacks, and it's already hard enough as it is to attract workers that are talented, considering there are many more lucrative, and stable professions these days that compete for the a similiar base of workers. Adding onto that requirement hurts the WWE, not help it.

I know what kind of worker they want. But they need to face the reality that those workers might be better off in Acting or regular TV-why go to the WWE for more pain, less money, and less emotionally rewarding work?

Punk reprsent the first of the new worker these days. He's better than in every aspect, I would say, but this is what's WWE worker base is, as much as they hate to admit it. While WWE isn't always guilty of having a product that isn't a fit for the fan base, they are certainly guilty of having a product that doesn't fit their potential worker base. You work with what you have, not what you want to have. Depending skills that these workers simply don't initially have isn't going to work.

WWE can do two things-slowly build workers to have the style and skills necessary to fit their product, and/or fit their product more in-line with the potential worker base. While WWE has made some attempts to do the first, they certainly have not done the second. They don't have to do it, but NOT doing so has actually made it harder for themselves, not easier. If you already in a front of short-wall, you can either go over it, around the sides, or try to ram head-on. Guess what the WWE is doing most of the time?

And when it comes to building stars, WWE rushes way too much these days. Short-term booking with no real *bang* or *shock* factor. Short-term booking only works if you intend to *shock* or *swerve* people. It doesn't work if there isn't any.

Second, any time they DO long-term booking, it's not done very well. It's almost always too obvious who's going to come out on top. In fact, they booking so many cliches, sometimes, they outright signal even who's going to win in the next match, with their booking. How am I supposed to care about a John Cena vs. *Anyone* when I have not even one shred of doubt who's going to win? Why buy a PPV when I already can guess the results, or if you signalled to me who's going to come out on top?

[djthefunkchris]

It's not that he wasn't given the chance. I have no doubt that WWE has given him "chances". But my frustration is due to WWE being unable to adapt to, or at the very least, hvae the right mindset that, the kind of workers they want are a dime in a dozen, needles in mutliple haystacks, and it's already hard enough as it is to attract workers that are talented, considering there are many more lucrative, and stable professions these days that compete for the a similiar base of workers. Adding onto that requirement hurts the WWE, not help it.

I know what kind of worker they want. But they need to face the reality that those workers might be better off in Acting or regular TV-why go to the WWE for more pain, less money, and less emotionally rewarding work?

Punk reprsent the first of the new worker these days. He's better than in every aspect, I would say, but this is what's WWE worker base is, as much as they hate to admit it. While WWE isn't always guilty of having a product that isn't a fit for the fan base, they are certainly guilty of having a product that doesn't fit their potential worker base. You work with what you have, not what you want to have. Depending skills that these workers simply don't initially have isn't going to work.

WWE can do two things-slowly build workers to have the style and skills necessary to fit their product, and/or fit their product more in-line with the potential worker base. While WWE has made some attempts to do the first, they certainly have not done the second. They don't have to do it, but NOT doing so has actually made it harder for themselves, not easier. If you already in a front of short-wall, you can either go over it, around the sides, or try to ram head-on. Guess what the WWE is doing most of the time?

And when it comes to building stars, WWE rushes way too much these days. Short-term booking with no real *bang* or *shock* factor. Short-term booking only works if you intend to *shock* or *swerve* people. It doesn't work if there isn't any.

Second, any time they DO long-term booking, it's not done very well. It's almost always too obvious who's going to come out on top. In fact, they booking so many cliches, sometimes, they outright signal even who's going to win in the next match, with their booking. How am I supposed to care about a John Cena vs. *Anyone* when I have not even one shred of doubt who's going to win? Why buy a PPV when I already can guess the results, or if you signalled to me who's going to come out on top?

You know, I actually agree more then dissagree with you, but alas, the underlined. This is where I just don't believe that everything is so cut and dry to most of the fan base. Sure, to me, or you, or someone else that is as "into" wrestling as we are... We see it, heck, most of us play a game where we simulate it. That insight effects our ability to "be shocked". It effects us in a bad way IMO... especially if you desire it.

Let me put it another way. How many times have you seen people in here complaining about something that happened on one of the shows... yet when your watching the show it seems like the WHOLE AUDIENCE was on a totally different mindframe (meaning they liked what other's hated). This is how I see most fans being. When I watch wrestling with my friends, that don't talk like we do about wrestling: Example: WOW! That was a good promo! Jeesh, he would be so much better if he would learn how to do a promo... That was botched badly! Etc.

We watch it like that. The guys I watch it with, thier reactions are totally different. I like this though, as it helps me enjoy the show about 20 times more then if I watch it while talking about the show here. IF I missed a botch, I'm still going to know about it. That's not "normal" viewer audience. Heck, most people don't think Botch, they think "Dummie shouldn't have tried that, now look what happened!" and it's kind of like watching race car's to them.... It's alot more exciting when there is a car crash.

[juggaloninjalee]

You know, I actually agree more then dissagree with you, but alas, the underlined. This is where I just don't believe that everything is so cut and dry to most of the fan base. Sure, to me, or you, or someone else that is as "into" wrestling as we are... We see it, heck, most of us play a game where we simulate it. That insight effects our ability to "be shocked". It effects us in a bad way IMO... especially if you desire it.

Let me put it another way. How many times have you seen people in here complaining about something that happened on one of the shows... yet when your watching the show it seems like the WHOLE AUDIENCE was on a totally different mindframe (meaning they liked what other's hated). This is how I see most fans being. When I watch wrestling with my friends, that don't talk like we do about wrestling: Example: WOW! That was a good promo! Jeesh, he would be so much better if he would learn how to do a promo... That was botched badly! Etc.

We watch it like that. The guys I watch it with, thier reactions are totally different. I like this though, as it helps me enjoy the show about 20 times more then if I watch it while talking about the show here. IF I missed a botch, I'm still going to know about it. That's not "normal" viewer audience. Heck, most people don't think Botch, they think "Dummie shouldn't have tried that, now look what happened!" and it's kind of like watching race car's to them.... It's alot more exciting when there is a car crash.

Were we thinking this way when Austin was always winning in the late 90s and stunning everyone left and right? I sure wasn't. I loved it and still do.

What about when Hogan was beating everyone left and right in the late 80s and early 90s? I loved that too.

Now is Cena's turn. In 10 years it will be a new guy.

[Fantabulous]

If they can make their fans want to see it or want to pay to see it, whether it's predictable or not is irrelevant. The problems start when you try to get cute and swerve people just to make things unpredictable, because it's hard to do it correctly without causing disinterest or damaging your own talent and WWE usually can't pull it off.

[lazorbeak]

You know, I actually agree more then dissagree with you, but alas, the underlined. This is where I just don't believe that everything is so cut and dry to most of the fan base. Sure, to me, or you, or someone else that is as "into" wrestling as we are... We see it, heck, most of us play a game where we simulate it. That insight effects our ability to "be shocked". It effects us in a bad way IMO... especially if you desire it.

Let me put it another way. How many times have you seen people in here complaining about something that happened on one of the shows... yet when your watching the show it seems like the WHOLE AUDIENCE was on a totally different mindframe (meaning they liked what other's hated). This is how I see most fans being. When I watch wrestling with my friends, that don't talk like we do about wrestling: Example: WOW! That was a good promo! Jeesh, he would be so much better if he would learn how to do a promo... That was botched badly! Etc.

We watch it like that. The guys I watch it with, thier reactions are totally different. I like this though, as it helps me enjoy the show about 20 times more then if I watch it while talking about the show here. IF I missed a botch, I'm still going to know about it. That's not "normal" viewer audience. Heck, most people don't think Botch, they think "Dummie shouldn't have tried that, now look what happened!" and it's kind of like watching race car's to them.... It's alot more exciting when there is a car crash.

Some good points here. Most people don't watch wrestling to make sure it's confirming a series of hypotheses they already had when the show started, then lament that things are too "predictable" because they were able to accurately predict what would happen. Most things of this nature are predictable if you look at them hard enough, even unscripted sporting events. But if you're watching to see if you're right, or, god forbid, giving out meaningless snowflakes based on some idiotic rating scale, there's a pretty good chance that you're not going to enjoy the show. And in the end, that's the whole point.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Agreed. If anything, I think the 'predictable' review is thrown around a bit too loosely, we spend days dissecting angles from every possible window, and at times once the predictable thing doesn't happen, it may be a "letdown" because the average smark doesn't feel comfortable with something he didn't expect.

[The Shape]

Were we thinking this way when Austin was always winning in the late 90s and stunning everyone left and right? I sure wasn't. I loved it and still do.

What about when Hogan was beating everyone left and right in the late 80s and early 90s? I loved that too.

Now is Cena's turn. In 10 years it will be a new guy.

Austin won his first WWE title in 1998 and last in 2001. Rock lasted a similarly brief period of time, due to injuries and other pursuits respectively. What's alarming about Cena is that it's already been 6 years of him as the main guy...only Hogan is comparable.

Part of it is down to basically a whole generation of stars not materialising; Lesnar, the other big name of the Cena/Batista 2002 debuting crop, didn't last long and after that, basically anybody they tried to push around 05/06 (Carlito, Kennedy, Lashley, MVP) didn't work out, and only Edge rose properly to the top.

[milamber]

I'm glad someone spoiled the SD result for me so my family didn't have to hear me scream what the f***. What was the point of starting the show with a Christian promo (with a voiceover saying something about the start of Christian's reign at Champ) followed by a strong mic angle... and then have him lose it on the same show. They couldn't stretch it for a few weeks to get Christian more over? The match itself was even and almost PPV quality, so even if the result sucked the execution was good.

And Orton's so over that he doesn't even need the belt. To be fair, when the match was announced, Randy looked like he had genuine respect for Christan; it's the bookers who underestimate Captain Charisma's star power.

So if CM Punk and Christian aren't Main Event material, who is? I'd rather watch the best performers in main event matches not the most marketable wrestlers (though I do prefer Orton to Cena at the moment).

I love seeing Zack Ryder signs at every show. At least make him job out to midcarders instead of wasting him.

Cody Rhodes is freakin' awesome. I wonder who he's going to feud with.

Sin Cara pulled off some nice moves again Kidd. I could watch him wrestle for hours and not get bored. It was funny with Chavo on commentary trying to make out like Sin Cara's a b-grade copycat.

I hope after Over the Limit they push Sheamus into a title match against Orton.

[Mr Rager]

Austin won his first WWE title in 1998 and last in 2001. Rock lasted a similarly brief period of time, due to injuries and other pursuits respectively. What's alarming about Cena is that it's already been 6 years of him as the main guy...only Hogan is comparable.

Part of it is down to basically a whole generation of stars not materialising; Lesnar, the other big name of the Cena/Batista 2002 debuting crop, didn't last long and after that, basically anybody they tried to push around 05/06 (Carlito, Kennedy, Lashley, MVP) didn't work out, and only Edge rose properly to the top.

What happened between Kennedy and WWE? When I initially stopped watching wrestling he was my favourite on the roster by a mile, it seemed like he could have been one of the top guys for years.

[wilts]

What happened between Kennedy and WWE? When I initially stopped watching wrestling he was my favourite on the roster by a mile, it seemed like he could have been one of the top guys for years.

Orton happened....nuff said :p

[lazorbeak]

What happened to Kennedy? He suffered a muscle tear that cost him Money in the Bank and killed his momentum on Smackdown, then he was drafted to Raw and almost immediately got suspended for wellness violations, then had a pretty terrible turn as a babyface in a sort of "PG Chris Jericho" type guy that made wisecracks and hilariously used photoshop to mock his opponents. Then after changing brands back to Smackdown, he immediately got hurt again. He came back from a 9 month lay-off and looked sloppy, and combined with his poor attitude, WWE decided to cut their losses. Basically poorly timed injuries and steroid use (which likely caused his muscle injury) kept him from having any consistency in the company. His awful babyface run didn't help, either.

[wilts]

What happened to Kennedy? He suffered a muscle tear that cost him Money in the Bank and killed his momentum on Smackdown, then he was drafted to Raw and almost immediately got suspended for wellness violations, then had a pretty terrible turn as a babyface in a sort of "PG Chris Jericho" type guy that made wisecracks and hilariously used photoshop to mock his opponents. Then after changing brands back to Smackdown, he immediately got hurt again. He came back from a 9 month lay-off and looked sloppy, and combined with his poor attitude, WWE decided to cut their losses. Basically poorly timed injuries and steroid use (which likely caused his muscle injury) kept him from having any consistency in the company. His awful babyface run didn't help, either.

I don't buy it, Kennedy could have been big. Look at Edge and all his injuries, they still managed to get him where they wanted.

[Hive]

I hope after Over the Limit they push Sheamus into a title match against Orton.

We saw that feud like 6 months or so ago. And weren't Seamus and Sin Cara supposed to feud anyway?

Christian vs. Sheamus could have been a great feud. They could have Orton mess around with Barrett and the other Corre guys, then take the belt off Christian after that.

It's not the fact that they took the belt off Christian so damn fast that bugs me all that much (even though I find it completely stupid). It's not the fact that they're putting it on Orton either (though I don't see why they found that to be necessary this soo with Cena as RAW champion); it's the fact that they are so damn repetitive... always the same boring feuds over and over again. Granted, they do throw in something new and fresh every now and then... but they usually find some stupid way to ruin it somehow, when it gets really good.

[The Shape]

With Kennedy, even after everything else he got MITB and announced he would cash it in for a Mania title shot the next year, but I think it was a botched move on Orton that was the final straw?

I love seeing Zack Ryder signs at every show. At least make him job out to midcarders instead of wasting him.

Seems counter-productive. He's turned him not being on TV into an angle in itself, I like to think they're just waiting for the right time to bring him in properl for a feud, or to start building him, rather than having him be a constant presence with no momemtum at all.

[cappyboy]

I really have to question what century these fans of Punk who would buy a show if they knew he was appearing won't buy because they don't even know it's him: clearly not the 21st, where twitter, facebook and everything else make guys like Punk instantly accessible to their hardcore fanbase. It "doesn't seem wise" to take money for a name that you still get to use anyway, on the basis that you might want to leave one day and make far less money elsewhere, but want to remain slightly more marketable in the tiny pond you're moving to? I just don't see how that's even a competitive option. Like I said, if WWE is low-balling him or think they don't need him around (and they do, considering the age and injuries to most of their other ring general type main eventers), that's one thing, but it's naive to say "oh he should keep the name maybe he'll need it one day."


And it sounds like you're overestimating the strength and power of the hardcore fan. With the Twitters and Facebooks and the like, I certainly can't blame you. They do make it easy to do.

But you said it yourself. WWE is the big stage. They are the company the the underinformed, casual fan knows best. And they get more of those folks than anybody else. The hardcore types who would follow Punk on Twitter or whatnot would clearly know where he was going next and under what name because they make it their business to know. Those types have also likely been with him pre-WWE. But the person who just follows WWE and is starting to branch out? The fan who doesn't read dirt sites on a regular basis? The person the lesser promotion's going to need to grow their base isn't necessarily going to know. Sure the means are there for them to know but counting on people to realize it is the road to potential disaster. That's one of the reasons we still have advertising in the 21st century.

[BurningHamster]

I don't buy it, Kennedy could have been big. Look at Edge and all his injuries, they still managed to get him where they wanted.

I think the fact Kennedy was horrible may have had something to do with it.

[BHK1978]

Austin won his first WWE title in 1998 and last in 2001. Rock lasted a similarly brief period of time, due to injuries and other pursuits respectively. What's alarming about Cena is that it's already been 6 years of him as the main guy...only Hogan is comparable.

Part of it is down to basically a whole generation of stars not materialising; Lesnar, the other big name of the Cena/Batista 2002 debuting crop, didn't last long and after that, basically anybody they tried to push around 05/06 (Carlito, Kennedy, Lashley, MVP) didn't work out, and only Edge rose properly to the top.

Well Bruno had what almost twenty years on the top. However, I get what you are talking about, you are talking about the modern day era.

[Fantabulous]

I think the fact Kennedy was horrible may have had something to do with it.

Edge also never had a rep Kennedy had. Like was said before, Kennedy had too much going against him to be worth the trouble. Kennedy was solid in the ring, but so are plenty others who don't have baggage Kennedy did and solid doesn't get you anywhere these days without bringing something else to the table and Kennedy didn't do that. I've seen nothing from in Kennedy in TNA that makes me think WWE missed the boat on him.

[crownsy]

Random side note: Jericho just twittered that the IWC should slow it's role on the Christan debacle and that it's all going to be part of a good, long storyline that will have a payoff they'll like.

Y2J with inside knowledge or just sticking up for the brand...we shall see

[djthefunkchris]

It's like I said, till I see what they do, I can't really comment on what I think about it. I have to see what the overall goal is first.

[ampulator]

Random side note: Jericho just twittered that the IWC should slow it's role on the Christan debacle and that it's all going to be part of a good, long storyline that will have a payoff they'll like.

Y2J with inside knowledge or just sticking up for the brand...we shall see
Well, it's not so much hte action itself, as I said before. WWE has done this kind of thing before. And we didn't care... but the difference is, we are sick of WWE's repeated pattersn of failing short every time they do something reckless. And quite frankly, I think most of us are past the point of giving WWE any benefit of the doubt.

[LoNdOn]

That Christian promo on Smackdown was so touching it makes me hate the decision all that much more. I can say that I hate the decision and will continue to do so until there is a payoff. I can't hold my breath in the hope that WWE make this title change mean something in the long run as I can't see into the future, all I can do is see the present and I am not happy with what I see.

p.s. Christian asking Mark Henry if he realised the world title was made of gold and not chocolate had me cracking up.

[sebsplex]

Random side note: Jericho just twittered that the IWC should slow it's role on the Christan debacle and that it's all going to be part of a good, long storyline that will have a payoff they'll like.

Y2J with inside knowledge or just sticking up for the brand...we shall see

Meh, probably just foreshadowing a heel turn.

I won't go on about Christian losing the belt so much, but what exactly does thrusting the belt to Orton so quickly achieve? Obviously Orton is going to be Smackdown's focal point, but did he seriously need the belt within a few days? It's not exactly like he was lacking momentum following the draft.

[liontamer]

Austin won his first WWE title in 1998 and last in 2001. Rock lasted a similarly brief period of time, due to injuries and other pursuits respectively. What's alarming about Cena is that it's already been 6 years of him as the main guy...only Hogan is comparable.

Part of it is down to basically a whole generation of stars not materialising; Lesnar, the other big name of the Cena/Batista 2002 debuting crop, didn't last long and after that, basically anybody they tried to push around 05/06 (Carlito, Kennedy, Lashley, MVP) didn't work out, and only Edge rose properly to the top.

don't forget HHH, he was on top for a long time.

Also for the question on Kennedy, in case the poster doesn't follow, he's now Mr. Anderson in TNA, basically the same character with the juice turned up slightly.

[supershot]

That Christian promo on Smackdown was so touching it makes me hate the decision all that much more. I can say that I hate the decision and will continue to do so until there is a payoff. I can't hold my breath in the hope that WWE make this title change mean something in the long run as I can't see into the future, all I can do is see the present and I am not happy with what I see.

Gotta agree with you man. Makes me sick to my stomach. I'm feel very sympathetic for Christain. Especially after that speech. I mean common he's finally won it and they take it from him days later.

Although they might want me to feel this way.. who knows?

[ampulator]

The reasons why WWE's pushes have not been up to par (and that includes John Cena), is because they don't have enough patience to slow-build anyone. Only ADR and the Miz have been pushed well. Every time they pushed anyone they believe in, it's always moon-pushes. On the flip side, when a wrestler "catches fire", they don't even capitalized on their momentum.

People with sudden momentum need to pushed harder, people who don't need to be pushed slower. It's a simple thing that the WWE had done in the past. But apparently, their current booking team doesn't have any clue about this.

[supershot]

People with sudden momentum need to pushed harder, people who don't need to be pushed slower

Gotta agree here. A good example of this would be... tada Christain! :)

Sudden momentum with the Edge situation and what do they do?

You never know tho it might actual be something but I'm skeptic.

[sheepy]

TBH, Christian dropping the belt quickly gives him fire and will help improve his overness. I'd be surprised if this doesn't build to him going over Orton after a long feud which turns Orton heel which will do wonders for his career.

Remember, Mysterio as champion got tired really quickly however his build to winning the belt was something that captured the imagination and the ultimate feel good after he won it.

Whether the WWE follow through on it remains to be seen though...

[lazorbeak]

I don't buy it, Kennedy could have been big. Look at Edge and all his injuries, they still managed to get him where they wanted.

Edge didn't have much in the way of injuries until about 5 years into his WWE career, by which time he'd been about a ten thousand time tag team champion, Intercontinental champion, King of the Ring, etc. Meanwhile Kennedy had poorly timed injuries that kept him from ever gaining any momentum, and came back from a year long lay-off looking sloppy and with an attitude.

[milamber]

Originally Posted by milamber View Post
I hope after Over the Limit they push Sheamus into a title match against Orton.

We saw that feud like 6 months or so ago. And weren't Seamus and Sin Cara supposed to feud anyway?

Christian vs. Sheamus could have been a great feud. They could have Orton mess around with Barrett and the other Corre guys, then take the belt off Christian after that.

It's not so much that I want Sheamus to face Orton again, more that I want Sheamus to main event again. And I can't see Orton dropping the belt until Summerslam or beyond.

[milamber]

Random side note: Jericho just twittered that the IWC should slow it's role on the Christan debacle and that it's all going to be part of a good, long storyline that will have a payoff they'll like.

Y2J with inside knowledge or just sticking up for the brand...we shall see

Let's hope it's all part of a grand plan that will see Christian pushed to the top at Summerslam. And let's hope Jericho returns to SD as a main event face.

[djthefunkchris]

I've heard that WWE actually does their storylines far in advance (probably knows the next six PPV's already, or at least 90% of). So when someone all the sudden is gone, or something happens differently, they have to think on their feet, and try to get back into the same "program" as before, so as to not screw up other storylines that intersync with them, etc. At least that's my thinking.

EDIT: I can remember two times I was really dissapointed because of this. Hardcore Holly on ECW, and Joey Mercury. Hardcore Holly went one on one with I believe RVD, for almost the whole show. Thing was, 80% of it was after Holly went through a table badly, getting a really good cut clean accross his back. He didn't stop wrestling, they did the whole match, and the crowd was really impressed with it. The following week he shows up on ECW with the gash and all, and still wants to compete. The crowd was really into him, and I think if they would have capitalized on it, Holly would/could/should have been headlining within' a couple of weeks of it, against just about anyone.

Mercury was in a big tag match, or maybe it was the money in the bank match (I can't remember). He had his face smashed by that ladder that Jeff Hardy jumped onto. He was really hurt badly. The next time he come on WWE, they showed all that, and the crowd was cheering away when they seen he showed up anyways. Instead of capitalizing on it, they had him whine about it. I honestly think they were going to try something similar to what Cody Rhodes is doing with the Mysterio assault on his face. The problem though, was he was totally ripe for either a face change, or becoming a "bad A..!" The crowd was ready for either. But not what happened, turned him into a cry-baby which lost all the heat in about two or three minutes of his promo. Bad thing for me is I always liked Joey Mercury alot better then Johnny Nitro/John Morrison. I think his ring psychology is allot better, he talks better, and he is more believable as a legit threat to me then I think Morrison ever will.... Morrison just looks to me if you were to look at him really mean, and punch him in the nose, he would litterally cry. SO does the WOO WOO guy by the way. I can't get into people I think I could probably chew out and make them cry. Seems these are the people the Internet fans are wanting pushed though, which really boggle's me.

[FINisher]

After seeing the episode it's really clear how there's the bigger plan to turn Christian heel. There was Long's interview where he said "It's not about what's fair, it's about giving WWE Universe what they want" and also the fact that the fans voted for Orton gives atleast some kind of reason for Christian to turn on the fans. Also the post-match angle of Christian looking sad and whatnot is another clear hint. Lets put it this way: If there wasn't a bigger plan and a bigger picture to all of this, there wouldn't have been that post-match angle and the Long and Christian promos/interviews.

The thing that I'm now looking forward to is to see how the fans react to this on next week's Smackdown: Will they boo for Orton? If Christian is turning heel and makes a heel promo, will they cheer or boo for him?

[eayragt]

I think we need to give WWE the chance on this one after watching Smackdown.

We have to understand Christian was never meant to be champion. He was never going to have a reign of a couple of months, of the question was how to take the title off him. He could have lost in at Over the Limit, sunk to the midcard and be given the Intercontinental Title later this year.

Instead WWE took the title off him now - but they've built it up as a shattered dream. The voiceover at the beginning of the show, Christian's promo, Christian's forlorn exit after the match. They didn't just take the title off Christian, they've recognised it as a huge blow to the man. They've given Christian a story (his old story was injured by ADR, Edge's mate - that's not a Main Event story), they could do something with this and leave Christian in the Main Event for... longer than Mark Henry stays there. This has potential - I would rather Christian had a 5 day reign and stayed relevant for longer than a month or two reign then sinking fast.

Now sure, it means that WWE have to do something with this, but lets see. Smackdown was well done, lets just see if they continue with this.

In other news, will Big Zeke be a face now, or a heel not aligned with the Corre? I'm guessing a face, with feuds with Barrett and then I guess Sheamus. I'd actually be interested in that.

[Fantabulous]

It seems like Alicia Foxx was injured at the SD tapings. Let's just hope that Kharma wasn't the one who injured her... :confused:

Having seen the incident in question, Kong clotheslining Foxx, Foxx took the bump wrong so the blame should go on her.

[LoNdOn]

Having seen the incident in question, Kong clotheslining Foxx, Foxx took the bump wrong so the blame should go on her.

In defence of Foxx, Kharma hit her pretty damn hard, not sure if she had much say in how she landed on that occasion.

[Teh_Showtime]

Edge didn't have much in the way of injuries until about 5 years into his WWE career, by which time he'd been about a ten thousand time tag team champion, Intercontinental champion, King of the Ring, etc. Meanwhile Kennedy had poorly timed injuries that kept him from ever gaining any momentum, and came back from a year long lay-off looking sloppy and with an attitude.

More specific like being injured right after winning MITB or on the night he returned for that huge 10 man tag match on Raw (when Orton supposedly stiffed him)

Just poor luck for the man. After his feud with Taker, he was never around long enough to do anything with it. He had a feud with HBK that many people dont know about too because I want to say he was abruptly injured too.

[sebsy]

I've heard that WWE actually does their storylines far in advance (probably knows the next six PPV's already, or at least 90% of). So when someone all the sudden is gone, or something happens differently, they have to think on their feet, and try to get back into the same "program" as before, so as to not screw up other storylines that intersync with them, etc. At least that's my thinking.

EDIT: I can remember two times I was really dissapointed because of this. Hardcore Holly on ECW, and Joey Mercury. Hardcore Holly went one on one with I believe RVD, for almost the whole show. Thing was, 80% of it was after Holly went through a table badly, getting a really good cut clean accross his back. He didn't stop wrestling, they did the whole match, and the crowd was really impressed with it. The following week he shows up on ECW with the gash and all, and still wants to compete. The crowd was really into him, and I think if they would have capitalized on it, Holly would/could/should have been headlining within' a couple of weeks of it, against just about anyone.

Mercury was in a big tag match, or maybe it was the money in the bank match (I can't remember). He had his face smashed by that ladder that Jeff Hardy jumped onto. He was really hurt badly. The next time he come on WWE, they showed all that, and the crowd was cheering away when they seen he showed up anyways. Instead of capitalizing on it, they had him whine about it. I honestly think they were going to try something similar to what Cody Rhodes is doing with the Mysterio assault on his face. The problem though, was he was totally ripe for either a face change, or becoming a "bad A..!" The crowd was ready for either. But not what happened, turned him into a cry-baby which lost all the heat in about two or three minutes of his promo. Bad thing for me is I always liked Joey Mercury alot better then Johnny Nitro/John Morrison. I think his ring psychology is allot better, he talks better, and he is more believable as a legit threat to me then I think Morrison ever will.... Morrison just looks to me if you were to look at him really mean, and punch him in the nose, he would litterally cry. SO does the WOO WOO guy by the way. I can't get into people I think I could probably chew out and make them cry. Seems these are the people the Internet fans are wanting pushed though, which really boggle's me.


The match you are thinking of with Mercury was at Armageddon 2006 iirc. Was a fatal four way tag team match for the WWE Tag Team Championships. London & Kendrick (c) vs MNM vs The Hardy's vs Regal & Dave Taylor. I remember it well because of the incident you speak of. Was a horrible injury but made the match better in a sick way. Although it was a pretty bloody good match anyway.

[Fantabulous]

In defence of Foxx, Kharma hit her pretty damn hard, not sure if she had much say in how she landed on that occasion.

From the way she bumped, it looked like Foxx was turning to try and take the fall on her front. If she'd just taken normal flatback bump she wouldn't have injured herself.

[LoNdOn]

From the way she bumped, it looked like Foxx was turning to try and take the fall on her front. If she'd just taken normal flatback bump she wouldn't have injured herself.

If that was indeed the case, it looked to me as though she was off balance when she was smacked to the floor and Kharma just blitzed her. Either way, wasn't a pleasant landing.

[cappyboy]

EDIT: I can remember two times I was really dissapointed because of this. Hardcore Holly on ECW, and Joey Mercury. Hardcore Holly went one on one with I believe RVD, for almost the whole show. Thing was, 80% of it was after Holly went through a table badly, getting a really good cut clean accross his back. He didn't stop wrestling, they did the whole match, and the crowd was really impressed with it. The following week he shows up on ECW with the gash and all, and still wants to compete. The crowd was really into him, and I think if they would have capitalized on it, Holly would/could/should have been headlining within' a couple of weeks of it, against just about anyone.


I know what you mean. I know Holly's a very easy guy to dislike because of all the talk from the dirt sites and the Tough Enough incident with Cappotelli and all that. But on the screen where it really mattered, I always liked Holly. The dude was a real throwback. He was the bad-ass tough guy that loudmouth Austin fancied himself to be and his promos harkened back to the days when you could substitute intensity for charisma. This situation with RVD was a prime example of it at the time and I agree. If they'd been able to capitalize, it could have been a golden age for ole Hardcore. I can't remember people ever having been more excited for him than they were in this period. Was not to be though and as a wrestling fan, that saddens me.

[Jaysin]

Totally off topic, but in July I'm driving almost 5 hours to Indianapolis just to meet DDP and Roddy Piper at the Days of the Dead horror convention. Excited? HECK YEAH!! Totally going to fanboy out over Page

[Mr Rager]

Just had the chance to catch Smackdown and, like a couple of other people have said, I've got a very different stance on the Christian/Orton incident having watched it pan out as opposed to when I'd just read the spoiler. Well, I'm still disappointed that he couldn't have had a longer reign, but from the way they built it up it's clear that there's big plans for these two; from Christian welling up during his promo at the start of the show, to the fact that they ended the show with him walking out of the arena a broken man as opposed to ending the show with a shot of the new champion proudly parading the title (like I'd expected them to).

Sure, in an ideal scenario I'd have preferred to see Christian get a chance to prove himself as a worthy champion; and with the likes of Sheamus, Wade Barrett, Cody Rhodes and even Mark Henry on the roster, I'm surprised that it seems Christian, or perhaps even Orton, will be turning heel. But having watched the show, I don't think this will be as bad for Christian as I did when I first read about it on Tuesday. Ultimately, this angle could give him the chance to cement himself as either the top face or the top heel in the company, maybe even more so than if he'd defended successfully against a few upper midcarders before losing the strap. As eayragt mentioned on the previous page, I feel there's more potential in the man who is bitter because his career defining moment was ruined than the man who won the title in memory of his outgoing best friend.

Or maybe I'm too much of an optimist.

[BurningHamster]

Totally off topic, but in July I'm driving almost 5 hours to Indianapolis just to meet DDP and Roddy Piper at the Days of the Dead horror convention. Excited? HECK YEAH!! Totally going to fanboy out over Page

And you're not going to over Piper? :mad:

[Jaysin]

And you're not going to over Piper? :mad:

I grew up on Page in WCW. Piper was there yeah, but I missed his prime. I LOVE Piper, don't get me wrong, but Page is a childhood hero.

[Unregistered]

Totally off topic, but in July I'm driving almost 5 hours to Indianapolis just to meet DDP and Roddy Piper at the Days of the Dead horror convention. Excited? HECK YEAH!! Totally going to fanboy out over Page

And now I'm thinking of Piper in a Zombie movie. They live was amazing, so Piper in a Romero film.... zomg. :D

[BurningHamster]

And now I'm thinking of Piper in a Zombie movie. They live was amazing, so Piper in a Romero film.... zomg. :D

Man that would be pretty amazing. I dare say even amazing enough for me to look past how horribly overplayed zombies are at the moment and make me watch it. Roddy Piper is a damn underrated actor. They Live .... man, love that movie.

[masterded]

And now I'm thinking of Piper in a Zombie movie. They live was amazing, so Piper in a Romero film.... zomg. :D

I love Romero. Dawn of the Dead has been one of my 2 favorite movies for 18 years now, but his last 2 zombie movies sucked. How the man who made a film as intelligent as Dawn made a film as dumb as Survival is still beyond me.

They Live still has the greatest fight scene of all time. Made even better as it is all about putting on a pair of sunglasses.

[Basmat01]

The reasons why WWE's pushes have not been up to par (and that includes John Cena), is because they don't have enough patience to slow-build anyone. Only ADR and the Miz have been pushed well. Every time they pushed anyone they believe in, it's always moon-pushes. On the flip side, when a wrestler "catches fire", they don't even capitalized on their momentum.

People with sudden momentum need to pushed harder, people who don't need to be pushed slower. It's a simple thing that the WWE had done in the past. But apparently, their current booking team doesn't have any clue about this.

I thought Batista's turn/push out of Evolution was one of the best the WWE had done in the last 10 years. And I dont think it was rushed at all they dropped a few hints every now a then for months leading up to the Royal Rumble

[ampulator]

I thought Batista's turn/push out of Evolution was one of the best the WWE had done in the last 10 years. And I dont think it was rushed at all they dropped a few hints every now a then for months leading up to the Royal Rumble
One example doesn't erase the millions they've done wrong, ESPECIALLY since Batista's push.

[djthefunkchris]

One example doesn't erase the millions they've done wrong, ESPECIALLY since Batista's push.

I agree, as I've already pointed out the two example's that really got under my skin, of not catching someone when they were hot.

However, I also can't see half the potential other's think they see on the roster in the last several years. There are a few that I thought screamed "Main Event" from the start. Alberto Del Rio is one example. He come out to the ring, and there was no doubt in my mind he's Main Event.

Most of the people they build, to me... Seems like just a way to get everyone to know them, not to actually push them into the main event. Sure, they will be there momentarily, but they aren't going to stay there, as it's obvious (at least to me) that they shouldn't be there.

This isn't EVERYONE... I mean, Kennedy could have floated up and down (that's how I seen him), and MVP could have easily been a Mainstay in some capacity. I mean, he passed all the right tests on it.

[ampulator]

To me, it's not about Main Event potential, as much as WWE using them to their MAXIMUM potential. It's because they have "plans", but their actual "planning" skills are poor. Plans aren't that important... real life events can drasticaly make any plan pointless. It's the PLANNING that matters-if you have some prepared already, maybe you can alter it to fit real life events. WWE's ability to improvise has gone drastically since the 90's, though.

The best case is Drew McIntyre. Their plans for him failed. They tried to moon-push him, and he either got X-Pac Heat, or even worse, the Code of Silence. After a while, his stock went down, in no large BECAUSE of the WWE's push, not despite of it. And I'm not McIntyre fan, but anything that went wrong, it's on WWE's shoulder's, not McIntyre's. But during that... PPV I can't seem to recall now... Elimination Chamber, he suddent became hot. due to his actions within that match. What did the WWE do with that momentum? Absolutely nothing.

This happened to Kofi Kingston, Mark Henry, MVP, Evan Bourne... heck, I might as well know the whole WWE midcard. When they are hot, they refuse to push them due to "plans". And when they have "plans" for them, their momentum is already gone.

[Fantabulous]

Kofi was super over in MSG when he put Orton through the table. They had something with him at that moment because the feud with Orton was going great guns and he was really getting over. Then they dropped the ball and Kofi sank back to the midcard.

[crownsy]

Kofi was super over in MSG when he put Orton through the table. They had something with him at that moment because the feud with Orton was going great guns and he was really getting over. Then they dropped the ball and Kofi sank back to the midcard.

True, but lets put some of the blame where it belongs, and thats squarley on Kofi.

I mean, he gave like three back to back awful promo's (worst was right before that match) and became a botch machine during the end of that fued.

I agree they could have salvaged his push a bit better, but kofi dropped the ball on his end a bit too.

[BurningHamster]

True, but lets put some of the blame where it belongs, and thats squarley on Kofi.

I mean, he gave like three back to back awful promo's (worst was right before that match) and became a botch machine during the end of that fued.

I agree they could have salvaged his push a bit better, but kofi dropped the ball on his end a bit too.

I think I remember Kofi having one match that was good, but cannot remember when, where or why. Everything else he has ever done has been horrible and I think wrestling fans have some sort of weird fetish with his hairstyle or something as I cannot understand how else he would get even slightly over with his complete lack of ability. I wouldn't go so far as to say Kofi dropped the ball, I don't even think he's realized there is a ball yet let alone gotten near it.

And yes, I know half of the time I post in the WWE discussion thread is just to diss Kofi. He deserves it though for being so lousy.

[supershot]

I feel there's more potential in the man who is bitter because his career defining moment was ruined than the man who won the title in memory of his outgoing best friend.

It worked out for Rey. But I definitely agree with you.

[GatorBait19]

Edge didn't have much in the way of injuries until about 5 years into his WWE career, by which time he'd been about a ten thousand time tag team champion, Intercontinental champion, King of the Ring, etc. Meanwhile Kennedy had poorly timed injuries that kept him from ever gaining any momentum, and came back from a year long lay-off looking sloppy and with an attitude.

not only that Kennedy would get hurt right as a push was about to hit. I believe also he had a couple issues with the wellness policy which resulted (along with his injuries) lead to him being released.

Edge was in line for a good push when he got hurt and when he came back they put him in a feud with Orton I believe. It wasn't until Edge switched to his heel gimmick in which we saw him start to win HW titles.

[Candyman]

I've heard that WWE actually does their storylines far in advance (probably knows the next six PPV's already, or at least 90% of). So when someone all the sudden is gone, or something happens differently, they have to think on their feet, and try to get back into the same "program" as before, so as to not screw up other storylines that intersync with them, etc. At least that's my thinking.

Exactly. I always laugh when people complain about the WWE booking week to week, when it's quite clear that that's not the case. You can see the long term vision they have when you look back on things. There is SO much foreshadowing in their writing, if you actually look for it. But nobody wants to do that. They want to look at last week's show and complain about how stupid it was and convince themselves they could do better because it makes them feel better.

And you're right about how they struggle when they have to change things on the fly. Rather than change every plan for every wrestler on the roster, they try to fix things with as little collateral damage as possible. It's not an easy thing to do, and it's rarely going to be seamless. And, unfortunately, they do miss opportunities sometimes(like you mentioned with Hardcore Holly and Joey Mercury). But they have to make an on the fly decision about whether or not Hardcore Holly's really a long term viable headliner or if it's temporary. And, if it's temporary, is it really worth rewriting everything to give him a few weeks in the spotlight? (IMO, they made the wrong choice both with Holly and Mercury, but I can understand why they did what they did.)

I think we need to give WWE the chance on this one after watching Smackdown.

Exactly. This is what I tried to say as soon as I heard about the title change. Of course, nobody wants to listen to reason, but it's stupid to criticize a move when you don't understand why they did it - it's even more stupid when you don't even know the full facts of what they did. (nobody knew about how they were going to focus on Christian's dream being shattered) It's just stupid. There's no other way to put it. Let's be honest here, the WWE gets it right much more often than they get it wrong. They've earned the benefit of the doubt.

JR had a great take on the situation in his blog: "Christian and Randy Orton had a great, TV match on Smackdown but I don't buy into the 'tragedy' that some fans flooded us with here on our site due to Christian losing the World Title. It isn't as if the loss ended Christian's career and who's to say that 'Captain Charisma' won't regain the title at a later date? Those that truly understand the nature of the genre have a different mindset than those who are knee jerking themselves silly."

[djthefunkchris]

/nod. I agree with alot of what you said. I've been watching long enough to see things come full circle, see things get used again, see where they were going and how they picked it back up after a real life event caused it to be put on the backburner for a while, etc.

Example: I was here when everyone said Umaga was horrible. I was also around when everyone started digging him.

I think what causes most of the disruption about things, is patience... Everyone wants things to be a certain way yesturday, without taking into consideration how long it really takes to get someone over. Each show has around what.... 60 to 64 shows a year to highlight someone. That's just over two months worth of TV a year. IF they didn't have the brands, this would be even more difficult, because 1: You can't show everyone every show. And TWO, To keep people watching (ratings) there are some you MUST SHOW as much as possible. SO your going to see alot of John Cena and Randy Orton, while other's take a backseat as far as show time. This HAS to happen.

The capitals are to emphasize, not yell (just re-reading, looks like I'm yelling, lol). Someone mentioned Drew... I must have missed the PPV they were talking about, but I seen two times I thought he looked great, but both times ended up saying something later that kind of ruined it... One was when he nailed R Truth as soon as Truth entered the ring, and yelled "That's what's up!" However, at the end of the match he said something that kind of ruined the whole thing for me (and I can't remember exactly what it was, but just normal bragging somehow just made him look alot less of a threat then he did just before). Another time was when R Truth was talking about how he was going to be ready next time he entered the ring, but in the middle got jumped by Drew again (I actually laughed both times, thought it was awesome). Then he did his little "intense look" thing, then started talking. It just ruins it for me. Makes him look like a broadway actor that can't act to me. Not as much his words, but the over the top look he gives while saying them. It's just not believable. He's one of the people I think WWE are just determined to make work no matter what, but I don't think I will ever be able to get past the stuff I just mentioned.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they have to be able to have great promo's... Fact is a person that can't deliver a promo very well, that is genuinely mic shy, has their own kind of charisma reguarding that...> Lashley for example. Everyone here kept putting down him promo's more then anything else (those that were putting him down anyways). The thing is, it worked for him. Most everyone I know would say to me "Now this guy is good, He doesn't talk much but he can kick butt!" They don't say "He can't give a good promo", ha. They find it better that he's more action then talk (at the time). This can work for people, and I think Holly would have been one of them to be able to do that.

Anyways, carry on.

[Jaysin]

Finally watched Smackdown.

I hope Chavo and Sin Cara get actual time to put on good shows in this feud if that's where its headed. Chavo can make almost anyone look good and the cruiserweight style is something Chavo is fantastic at.

Super irritated Christian lost already, but the match was really good. Liked the finish. If Orton could put those kind of performances on regularly I'd support the heck out of him. Unless its just a case of him and Christian having good chemistry.

I really wish he'd ditch the retarded monkey looking stuff though.

[BurningHamster]

retarded monkey looking

Hold up, what was that about Low Ki?

[lazorbeak]

Suddenly there's a lot of common sense in this thread. Glad we're all over the knee-jerk hyperbole already. The farewell to Edge storyline was over (ADR's not even around any more), and Christian gets plugged into a major storyline with one of the top names in wrestling. And people act like the sky is falling because he lost a match.

As far as the failure to capitalize when someone is temporarily hot, I see where WWE isn't very good at it, but on the other hand, a guy like Hardcore Holly was perfect in the position he was in. He was a pretty solid hand who served as a gatekeeper for people positioned to move up the card, and that's where a guy with his talent, his look, and his promo skills needed to be. Pushing him beyond that would just expose his weaknesses, the way it did when he moved into the IC title picture, the same way it did when he worked his program with Lesnar, the same way it did for Kofi when he looked awful feuding with Orton after one big night where he looked ready to be a main eventer.

[ampulator]

There's always been common sense in this thread. It's the WWE that doesn't have common sense anymore. People claim that the WWE doesn't have to do the "shock and awe" tactics anymore, yet defend their nonsensical moves.

this isn't JUSt about Christian-it's more of a major crystalization of what's happened before to the WWE before, except as an example that's happened one too big, too many. I'm not saying the WWE can't make dirt turn into gold-they have done it before, on extremely rare occasions (Val Venis or Goldust, anyone?), but most of times they do it have become obviously bad. And besides, I'm sick of giving the WWE the benefit of the doubt-they have already messed up too many times before. This has been the case ever since the Invasion. That was, and the last time, I was ever willing to go into "wait and see" mode. No more.

Look, there were many people in the Attitude Era that could have been main eventers after it ended, and some even DURING it. But no one complains... because the WWF did their best to push them to that level, OR, there was simply not enough spots to push them there. WWF may not have always succeeded pushing these guys to the next level, but at least they tried, and they certainly tried when the iron was hot.

WWE needs to understand that they are working in front of LIVE crowd, and not simply a soap opera. If the crowd gets in the way of your "plans", the crowd should take precedence most of the time. Who the heck wants to see 70000+ Wrestlemania attendees boo your main star? If you can't control who your audience is, and/or if you can't control how your audience reacts, you change what they are reacting against. It's that simple. What they change, it's up to them, but need to remember: they work in front of live crowd.

/nod. I agree with alot of what you said. I've been watching long enough to see things come full circle, see things get used again, see where they were going and how they picked it back up after a real life event caused it to be put on the backburner for a while, etc.

Example: I was here when everyone said Umaga was horrible. I was also around when everyone started digging him.

I think what causes most of the disruption about things, is patience... Everyone wants things to be a certain way yesturday, without taking into consideration how long it really takes to get someone over. Each show has around what.... 60 to 64 shows a year to highlight someone. That's just over two months worth of TV a year. IF they didn't have the brands, this would be even more difficult, because 1: You can't show everyone every show. And TWO, To keep people watching (ratings) there are some you MUST SHOW as much as possible. SO your going to see alot of John Cena and Randy Orton, while other's take a backseat as far as show time. This HAS to happen.

The capitals are to emphasize, not yell (just re-reading, looks like I'm yelling, lol). Someone mentioned Drew... I must have missed the PPV they were talking about, but I seen two times I thought he looked great, but both times ended up saying something later that kind of ruined it... One was when he nailed R Truth as soon as Truth entered the ring, and yelled "That's what's up!" However, at the end of the match he said something that kind of ruined the whole thing for me (and I can't remember exactly what it was, but just normal bragging somehow just made him look alot less of a threat then he did just before). Another time was when R Truth was talking about how he was going to be ready next time he entered the ring, but in the middle got jumped by Drew again (I actually laughed both times, thought it was awesome). Then he did his little "intense look" thing, then started talking. It just ruins it for me. Makes him look like a broadway actor that can't act to me. Not as much his words, but the over the top look he gives while saying them. It's just not believable. He's one of the people I think WWE are just determined to make work no matter what, but I don't think I will ever be able to get past the stuff I just mentioned.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think they have to be able to have great promo's... Fact is a person that can't deliver a promo very well, that is genuinely mic shy, has their own kind of charisma reguarding that...> Lashley for example. Everyone here kept putting down him promo's more then anything else (those that were putting him down anyways). The thing is, it worked for him. Most everyone I know would say to me "Now this guy is good, He doesn't talk much but he can kick butt!" They don't say "He can't give a good promo", ha. They find it better that he's more action then talk (at the time). This can work for people, and I think Holly would have been one of them to be able to do that.

Anyways, carry on.

The problem with Drew McIntyre isn't really himself, but the WWE. They needed to adjust their plans to fit McIntyre, rather try to fit McIntyre into their plans.

That's the issue with the WWE these days. They make a plan... then try to force fit a worker into said plan. If it doesn't work, it wasn't the planner's, the plans', or the plannings' fault-it was fault of the wrestler of not fitting the plans. That's just moronic way to book workers. What the WWE should do is fit plans AROUND workers, not workers AROUND plans. Workers, are people, and people don't change quickly. It takes time. but to change a plan, if they choose so, can much more quickly changed. They just refuse to. They believe in their themselves more than their workers.

If you let a worker do his best, one of two things will happen-he will bomb. Or, he will rise to the occasion. It's a zero-sum proposition. If they bomb, then shelve them, or depush them. That's it. If they rise to the occasion, then you need to figure out how to work them to the best of their strengths. A great example this year... is R-Truth. His promo on why he turned on Morrison.... was great midcard promo. He reacted against the crowd, and the crowd reacted against him. It was beautiful.

On the other hand, they give these awkward scripted promos to John Morrison, who end up sound like an idiot, uncomfortable, and really, really out of his element. He doesn't bomb completely, but he doesn't really end up sounding good. WWE's scripting may actually tamper down on a lot of "bombings", but not everyone needs to be scripted to a T. It just ends everyone sounding middle of the road, not that bad, not that good. It's only when you allow to do their best that they rise to the occasion. The Rock's comeback promo was one; so was Cena's response promos. If they let other workers go off a bit, they might get some bombings.... but they also might get some magic.

We will never know, though, because the WWE doesn't let it happen anymore. And that's the way the WWE is now. I hate that's become a reality, but I accept it. It's a terrible reality for anyone, but it is what it is, and the WWE refuses to change.

[djthefunkchris]

Your biggest gripe is still "Should have left the belt on Christian", even after the fact it's become obvious that he's going into a serious storyline by the majority of people here. One that will probably help him MORE then keeping it on him for just a few more days or weeks.

Far as the other stuff... The Invasion wasn't supposed to make WCW guys look good in comparison to WWE guys... I mean that part was obvious, that he was going in to bassically turn them into jokes, unless they completely conformed to his "style" or whatever. I don't know how I feel about that really, as I wasn't sitting their wondering if I make all these guys look great, will they end up in another WCW type promotion, making me go head to head again with them. At least by having my guys beat them, I will look like I have the better guys (to casuals).

Pluss, alot of the big older names from WCW was exactly what some of the WWE guys needed to get them to that next level.

[ampulator]

Your biggest gripe is still "Should have left the belt on Christian", even after the fact it's become obvious that he's going into a serious storyline by the majority of people here. One that will probably help him MORE then keeping it on him for just a few more days or weeks.

Far as the other stuff... The Invasion wasn't supposed to make WCW guys look good in comparison to WWE guys... I mean that part was obvious, that he was going in to bassically turn them into jokes, unless they completely conformed to his "style" or whatever. I don't know how I feel about that really, as I wasn't sitting their wondering if I make all these guys look great, will they end up in another WCW type promotion, making me go head to head again with them. At least by having my guys beat them, I will look like I have the better guys (to casuals).

Pluss, alot of the big older names from WCW was exactly what some of the WWE guys needed to get them to that next level.
You see, it's not so much as they need to keep the belt on him. I understand their thought process. I just thought it wsa too quick... even for them. Second, that isn't my biggest gripe with the WWE... trust me when I tell this. My gripe with the WWE is far bigger than Christian not having the belt. I think it's pretty obvious that isn't the biggest gripe. It's only an obvious and clear-cut example of what they are doing wrong. Not in the wrong in the sense you think it is, but certainly wrong in the sense I think it is.

I think it's pretty obvious what my gripes of what the WWE are, and it's a lot more bigger than one booking decision.

On WCW, I wasn't talking about that, but if you want to get into that... the thing is, some of those SHOULD have been made on the level of the WWE Guys. Obviously, a lot of them definitely weren't. but some of them were.

As a whole, of course WcW wasn't on the same level sa the WWF. but on individual basis rather than a group basis, some of their stars were bigger than the WWF stars, and some were as popular as the WWF stars. Certainly not a majority of them. But a good number of them were.

I said this before, and I will say it again. If I'm wrong, then it's not issue... but I'm right, that means the WWE is in an inevitable, industry-wide, unrecoverable decline, and that I don't want to be right. I say what I say, because I feel I NEED to do this for everyone, to help them see if there was a way to reverse this. I rather be wrong... in my heart, I want to deny this truth. But I can't. I want to believe nothing is going wrong.... but I can't turn a blind eye. It would so much easier, if I didn't care... but I do. And I must do what I can, before it's too late.

The day it's too late is when people agree with me. That's when I know it's become a total reality. Then I failed everyone. And if I'm wrong... I would be the happiest man alive. I just wish that I was.

[lazorbeak]

There's always been common sense in this thread. It's the WWE that doesn't have common sense anymore. People claim that the WWE doesn't have to do the "shock and awe" tactics anymore, yet defend their nonsensical moves.


Where were you when memories were being ****-ed by a wrestler losing a wrestling match?

[Adam Ryland]

Where were you when memories were being ****-ed by a wrestler losing a wrestling match?

I'm not sure, but from his last post I think he's either planning to start a new religion, assassinate Vince McMahon, or save a cheerleader - so give the guy a break, he's probably pretty busy with planning and stuff.

[MichiganHero]

I'm not sure, but from his last post I think he's either planning to start a new religion, assassinate Vince McMahon, or save a cheerleader - so give the guy a break, he's probably pretty busy with planning and stuff.

I see someone watched Heroes :p

[TheLeviticalLawKid3]

I'm not sure, but from his last post I think he's either planning to start a new religion, assassinate Vince McMahon, or save a cheerleader - so give the guy a break, he's probably pretty busy with planning and stuff.
You, sir, are becoming more and more legendary with every passing day.

[Fantabulous]

You, sir, are becoming more and more legendary with every passing day.

Careful; you'll get chapped lips with too much kissing up.

[ZMAN]

I said this before, and I will say it again. If I'm wrong, then it's not issue... but I'm right, that means the WWE is in an inevitable, industry-wide, unrecoverable decline, and that I don't want to be right. I say what I say, because I feel I NEED to do this for everyone, to help them see if there was a way to reverse this. I rather be wrong... in my heart, I want to deny this truth. But I can't. I want to believe nothing is going wrong.... but I can't turn a blind eye. It would so much easier, if I didn't care... but I do. And I must do what I can, before it's too late.

The day it's too late is when people agree with me. That's when I know it's become a total reality. Then I failed everyone. And if I'm wrong... I would be the happiest man alive. I just wish that I was.

You sound like that crazy religious guy on the sidewalk.

People have been claiming that WWE is on a decline for like the past 8 years. Yet here they are, still standing tall with three television shows. Nothing is really declining, it's just staying the same.

[TheLeviticalLawKid3]

Careful; you'll get chapped lips with too much kissing up.
And I would be kissing up for what? What could I get out of it? Really?

I'm just some guy that has his wrestling game and enjoys it very much. I also am an avid member of his forums for said game, and I think it's cool how much he interacts with his customers. His last few posts on this site have been right on the button and pretty funny.

I love his humor and pop culture references in the game, and I was just showing my appreciation for that and the posts he has on this site.

Not kissing up, not expecting anything...stating my opinion. That's all.

[Zeel1]

Sort of expected it'd be Eric's last week after the ropes debacle.

[PoisonedSuperman]

Truth vs. Cena!!

[Zeel1]

Truth came out without music - I'm guessing they're/he is still making his heel theme...

Loving his facial expressions tonight, by the way.

[TracyBrooksFan]

Ron 'The Truth' Killings is the new Loose Cannon

[PoisonedSuperman]

Ron 'The Truth' Killings is the new Loose Cannon

The angry black man!!

[Zeel1]

So the Divas title goes to Kelly Kelly, presumably because we needed a face champion for Kharma to beat. Which was precisely why I found putting it on Brie while Kharma was being built up to be so puzzling. Why put it on a heel diva right before the debut of the monster heel diva who will likely be winning the title within a month or so? Just seems kind of silly...

[ampulator]

So the Divas title goes to Kelly Kelly, presumably because we needed a face champion for Kharma to beat. Which was precisely why I found putting it on Brie while Kharma was being built up to be so puzzling. Why put it on a heel diva right before the debut of the monster heel diva who will likely be winning the title within a month or so? Just seems kind of silly...
They should have put it on Nattie, Beth, or Gail.

Now we KNOW Kelly is going to get tossed around like a ragdoll. She's athletic, but that's about it.

[Zeel1]

They should have put it on Nattie, Beth, or Gail.

Now we KNOW Kelly is going to get tossed around like a ragdoll. She's athletic, but that's about it.

I just feel they might as well have kept it on Eve and had Kharma run through her at Over The Limit. Currently, it seems it'll end up being hotshot from Eve to Brie to Kelly to Kharma in about two months... seems unnecessary. Guess it doesn't matter much, just nitpicki-

RYDER APPEARANCE!!!

[angeldelayette]

John Cena is the new Dusty Rhodes! He has the Dusty Finish on the WWE Draft AND the Dusty Finish on the match last week against the Miz!

[ampulator]

John Cena is the new Dusty Rhodes! He has the Dusty Finish on the WWE Draft AND the Dusty Finish on the match last week against the Miz!
And he's twice as annoying, with half the charm! (I didn't think it was even possible).

[angeldelayette]

And he's twice as annoying, with half the charm! (I didn't think it was even possible).

You think he has half the charm as the American Dream? Well, maybe, I'll reach and stretch and give you that. Mayyyyyyyybe half. But if I do, then you have to give me three times as annoying.

[Zeel1]

For a second there, I had no idea what theme was playing there. Been a while since I've heard Swagger's theme go that long.

"The submission maneuver that Swagger has made famous, the Ankle Lock!" I see what you did there...

[ampulator]

You think he has half the charm as the American Dream? Well, maybe, I'll reach and stretch and give you that. Mayyyyyyyybe half. But if I do, then you have to give me three times as annoying.
Darn it. you're right. Not even half of the charm. I concede.

[Eisen-verse]

Thoughts on RAW last night...

The Truth: Let me preface this by saying, I never liked the Truth when he was running around with his 'wassup' thing. It was childish, boring, and made him look like a fool. That said, I'm LOVING what they're doing with him right now. If they continue to book him this way, give him the rub on some bigger names, and have him work consistently in the main-event lights, I could see him going pretty far. Champion far? Possibly not. That said, if they develop him right, he really could be a future main eventer for them. Is the greatest on the mic? Not really but the WWE have made careers out of others with even less ability on the mic.

Kharma: I LOVE her arrival as it makes me not so depressed about the WWE's current 'character' booking. They have done some shades of some characters in the past; however, Kharma has potential to be something unique. So far, it seems like things may be centered around Kelly Kelly? If so, I'm happy; she's pretty to look at. ha.

Main Event: Is it just me or was it weird to see the Miz and Del Rio fight as much as they did? I mean, the match was a great one in my mind; back-and-forth really added a lot. Truthfully, for a WWE main event, I was pretty happy. That said, as above, it felt like they were playing Del Rio slightly as a tweener in last night's main event. In theory, which is common practice, I thought the two would team up on Rey-REy until they got annoyed with one another and THEN warred. While it's cliche, it works when it comes to explaining why two heels are laying into one another!

[Jaysin]

Truth is awesome and had some great lines last night. I love when it looked like Alex Riley and Miz legitimately busted up laughing at what he said about Del Rio

[LoNdOn]

How long has Little Guido been a WWE ref? I saw him holding King back when Swagger accepted his challenge on behalf of Cole.

[sheepy]

They should have put it on Nattie, Beth, or Gail.

Now we KNOW Kelly is going to get tossed around like a ragdoll. She's athletic, but that's about it.

This is WWE, they'll build Kharma up for months only to get knocked out in the first minute by Kelly before being sent off to development for 6 months before being released.

Kelly meanwhile goes on to be the longest reigning women's champion of all time.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Truth is awesome and had some great lines last night. I love when it looked like Alex Riley and Miz legitimately busted up laughing at what he said about Del Rio

"When an angry black man talks, y'all better SHUT UP!" Golden.

[20LEgend]

How long has Little Guido been a WWE ref? I saw him holding King back when Swagger accepted his challenge on behalf of Cole.

Really surprised at that, according to wiki: Maritato appeared at a house show for WWE Raw, at Madison Square Garden on 12/26/10, in a referee capacity as a majority of referees could not make it to the arena due to blizzards and gale force winds. He later appeared as a referee on January 24, 2011 in a dark match between Percy Watson and William Regal. He also once again appeared in a referee capacity on the 2/04/2011 episode of Smackdown and 2/04/2011 episode of NXT and the May 9th edition of Raw to referee a divas tag team match and break up a confrontation with Jerry The King Lawler, Jack Swagger and Michael Cole.

Never knew he was a ref. Need to find a clip to see what it looks like :D

Edit: It looks weird? :(

[1234]

How long has Little Guido been a WWE ref? I saw him holding King back when Swagger accepted his challenge on behalf of Cole.

Holy something.

Just looked through the photo's for the Divas match last night and they have several photos of him in plain sight, there obviously not trying to hide the fact (or think we won't notice :p). Although honestly if I hadnt read this thread before looking at the photos I probably wouldnt have even realised it was him :o

I'm just wondering how long it will take for him to become involved in some angle, or have someone randomly point it out in a promo.

[nucleardonkey]

Yea it scares me that this whole Kharma thing is being done to build Kharma into an unstoppable monster so that 2 - 4 months from now when Kelly beats her clean it looks more impressive then Kharma will start her real storyline as (Insert comedy baby face)'s girlfriend/bodyguard and is turned into a comedy act before disappearing.

Monsters in WWE always go one of two ways, either they dominate and become WWE champion and get a decent run before leaving (Brock, Batista) or they have a very minor run before being turned into a comedy baby face (Khali, Big Show, and even Kane to some extent). Which is why I hate the current WWE product, no one gets that bad ass push for long these days before being phased out to a comedy role which sucks when they have the perfect female bad ass in Kharma but before the years out she'll be fighting with Tamina over Santino.

[lazorbeak]

Yea it scares me that this whole Kharma thing is being done to build Kharma into an unstoppable monster so that 2 - 4 months from now when Kelly beats her clean it looks more impressive then Kharma will start her real storyline as (Insert comedy baby face)'s girlfriend/bodyguard and is turned into a comedy act before disappearing.

Monsters in WWE always go one of two ways, either they dominate and become WWE champion and get a decent run before leaving (Brock, Batista) or they have a very minor run before being turned into a comedy baby face (Khali, Big Show, and even Kane to some extent). Which is why I hate the current WWE product, no one gets that bad ass push for long these days before being phased out to a comedy role which sucks when they have the perfect female bad ass in Kharma but before the years out she'll be fighting with Tamina over Santino.

While what you mentioned about WWE turning monsters into comedy babyfaces is somewhat true, you're noticing the effect and ignoring the cause: that WWE never has more than a couple of "monster heels" doing the monster heel shtick at once. If Khali is your monster heel, you can't have Kane working monster heel on the same show. When Kane debuted, he was the monster heel in the promotion. But then when Big Show shows up in '99, he becomes the top monster heel and Kane is turned face and paired with DX leftovers. And it goes on like that pretty consistently: Khali turns face around the time Koslov does the dominant Russian gimmick. Koslov now is a comedy babyface, so we get a vacuum for another Kane monster run. Now that's over and it looks like they're going to put Mason Ryan into the role. It doesn't work to have an entire show populated with monsterous heels beating up tiny babyfaces.

In Karma's case, there is no other monster heel. She's the biggest and the baddest woman on the roster, and while eventually she will probably be turned face by the crowd for being so awesome, there's nobody who they are going to bring in and say "oh we need you to stop doing a monster gimmick so we can give it to this other monster" the way they do with Kane on a bi-annual basis.

So I wouldn't get too worried about them quick-turning Karma. Their use of her character so far indicates they know what they're doing: honestly, it's not that hard to book her.

[liontamer]

I just wished they'd really unleash her and have her do more than 1 move when 'destroying' somebody. Just come out and beat the tar out of someone.

[HughBatey4]

I just wished they'd really unleash her and have her do more than 1 move when 'destroying' somebody. Just come out and beat the tar out of someone.


Less is more. The one move is a much more impressive visual than her beating the tar out of somebody. They will save that for her match after it has been built up. If she comes out and destroys somebody, goes through half her move set, then the casual fan (which is the majority) has no reason to pay to see her again. Doing one move leaves a mystique about her, that in THEORY, should cause people to have an interest in what she can do.

[ZMAN]

Loose cannon Truth is an amazing character. Finally, out with the babyface rapper and in with the real Truth. I think he can only get better if they keep giving him mic time and storylines, and he could possibly become a big star. I just hope he doesn't get the old Christian treatment from a few years ago where he gets a solid push, performs good, but just ends up getting the shaft and leaving the company.

[Zeel1]

Loose cannon Truth is an amazing character. Finally, out with the babyface rapper and in with the real Truth. I think he can only get better if they keep giving him mic time and storylines, and he could possibly become a big star. I just hope he doesn't get the old Christian treatment from a few years ago where he gets a solid push, performs good, but just ends up getting the shaft and leaving the company.

What are you trying to say...? ;)

[Zeel1]

Sin Cara/Bryan was pretty awesome, as expected, and I'm loving Chavo's involvement here too. Kind of liking Sin Cara's mannerisms as well for some reason, I guess Luchadors are just kind of over-the-top like that. :p

Kharma interrupting Cole's anti-diva rant...? This should be good... :p

[GruntMark]

Cole tripping Layla was hilarious.

I dont get the real Cole hate. He's incredibly amusing as a dickish heel.

[Zeel1]

Yeah, I find him pretty entertaining too. I get the feeling he's really having fun doing it too, which I always like to see.

I'd generally like for them to keep him out of the ring, but y'know... :p

[GruntMark]

I'd generally like for them to keep him out of the ring, but y'know... :p

I'll give you that.

Also, Kane needs a shirt...

[Zeel1]

Rhodes vs. DiBiase...? What is this, they're both heels...

I guess Ted's default face tonight. Maybe a face turn would be good for him, I dunno...

[GruntMark]

I stopped watching when Khali came out.

Take notes WWE.

[GatorBait19]

Rhodes vs. DiBiase...? What is this, they're both heels...

I guess Ted's default face tonight. Maybe a face turn would be good for him, I dunno...

I thought he turned face on NXT (which is dumb because if you don't watch it you'd never know)

[Teh_Showtime]

They had a pretty good match too. I haven't seen DiBiase look that good and motivated even against Daniel Bryan. Maybe trying to prove something against his former partner who left him on the totem pole.

[Zeel1]

I thought he turned face on NXT (which is dumb because if you don't watch it you'd never know)

Ah, okay... yeah, that does sound like an odd move, I mean it's a web show now, and they didn't even mention it...

[GatorBait19]

Ah, okay... yeah, that does sound like an odd move, I mean it's a web show now, and they didn't even mention it...

Yeah I read it on the reviews. He left Maryse and turned face

[milamber]

I'd like to see a Christian/Sheamus feud after Christian's finished with Orton.

I love the slow-burning Chavo/Sin Cara rivalry/mentorship. Sin Cara v Bryan was a real treat.

[ampulator]

It's a good sign that WWE thinks NXT isn't "House Show" level. You usually don't have hosue shows directly contradicting the bigger shows (except in rare occasions).

[TakerNGN74]

Really liked the match between Daniel Bryan and Sin Cara tonight on Smackdown. However they really need to not do the lighting that they have been doing for Sin Caras matches. It makes the matches harder to focus on and takes away from the match in my opinion. I understand what they are trying to do by making his matches seem special but in my opinion it isn't working.

[BHK1978]

Really liked the match between Daniel Bryan and Sin Cara tonight on Smackdown. However they really need to not do the lighting that they have been doing for Sin Caras matches. It makes the matches harder to focus on and takes away from the match in my opinion. I understand what they are trying to do by making his matches seem special but in my opinion it isn't working.

I agree with you on that. I was watching Smackdown during the commercials for Smallville and the lighting just seemed odd. What they could do is what they used to do way back when, turn the houselights down and just keep the ring lit up. Granted the people in the audience might have a hard time getting around (I cannot remember what it was like back then when they would light the arena like that.).:D

[Comradebot]

Really liked the match between Daniel Bryan and Sin Cara tonight on Smackdown. However they really need to not do the lighting that they have been doing for Sin Caras matches. It makes the matches harder to focus on and takes away from the match in my opinion. I understand what they are trying to do by making his matches seem special but in my opinion it isn't working.

That lighting is actually what kept me watching. I flipped the channel over, saw the Captain Charisma/Nega-Charisma vs. Marky Henry/Sheamus brawl, left it on...


And then saw "hey, Sin Cara vs. Daniel Bryan, this might be pretty sweet".

And then... it looked like they were wrestling on CSI: Miami. Cracked me up, and then it turned out they (as I hoped) had a pretty excellent match.

Though the absolute BEST segment of the night, for me, was actually something that happened last week (which I didn't watch, so this was new for me). Freakin' Wade Barrett with the "It's been a pleasure workin' with you, Zeke." Cracked. Me. Up. Been quoting it at random all day ever since. Wade Barrett, all night, was absolutely pure gold. Since there's next to zero chance they actually let Christian beat Orton again for the title, I hope Barrett ends up being the guy to do so.

SmackDown! actually has some wonderful talent on it for a change of pace, and I may have to keep watching for a bit. Barrett, Gabriel, Christian, Byran, Sin Cara, Sheamus, Kharma, Michael Cole doing an impression of the Bubble Boy from Seinfeld... I was pleased.

Negatives from last night were short, but... Orton still sucks, and despite my best efforts I just can't understand why such a bland hack has managed to get so over, Khali currently is working the worst gimmick I've seen since TNA debuted The Johnsons, and clearly charisma skips a generation as Dibiase Jr, Cody Rhodes, and Randy Orton should all be kept away from microphones at all times. Rhodes has an awesome gimmick, but unfortunately he just ain't that amazing himself. Still, fun gimmick: more than what the WWE has given a lot of folks. Like Ted Dibiase, Jr.

Oh, and Josh Matthews and Michael Cole sound freakishly similar.


EDIT: woops, had Striker and Matthews confused for some reason. Meh.

[Teh_Showtime]

If you don't want Cody Rhodes near a mic, I think you might need a paper bag. :p

[MichiganHero]

When did Over The Limit turn into the I Quit spectacle? Because first Batista and now The Miz against Cena in an I Quit match is some really inventive booking.

[The Shape]

When did Over The Limit turn into the I Quit spectacle? Because first Batista and now The Miz against Cena in an I Quit match is some really inventive booking.

Turn into it? Last year was the first one. So it seems that is what this has as the gimmick, fits the name anyway.

[Candyman]

Turn into it? Last year was the first one. So it seems that is what this has as the gimmick, fits the name anyway.

I agree, it's more than a little odd to complain about repetitive booking on something that's happened twice. Kind of like all the people who act like the Royal Rumble always has and always will be won by a returning superstar just because it happened twice in a couple years.

I digress. The "I Quit" match is clearly becoming John Cena's signature match because of his "I will not quit" mentality. It's his answer to Undertaker's Casket match and Triple H's Hell in a Cell. I guess if you considered those uninventive booking, this is too.

[The Shape]

Yeah. I didn't see the Batista one last year but his one with Orton at Breaking Point 09 was superbly done. But the I Quit match really suit Orton's character as well, harder when it's Miz to have him conduct some kind of torture session, it'll be the same kind of thing just not as effective.

[Zeel1]

Boy, I feel for Martin, he was doing really good, won three skills challenges in a row at one point, and then that happens, that sucks.

[Zeel1]

...Didn't Kelly win the Divas Championship last week? Or am I going insane and just imagined that?

[Zeel1]

RYDER APPEARANCE~!

Okay, I'm starting to buy into them wanting to fuel the fire of his internet rep. He even got to say "Take care, spike your hair"! Not to mention giving him a T-Shirt... maybe next week, he'll fit "Like me on Facebook, follow me on twitter" ect. in there as well? :p

By the way, I'm thinking the stip tonight will probably be a totally lop-sided looking handicap match, pitting Cena against everyone Miz was talking to tonight.

[GruntMark]

The Miz/Cena arc for the night turned out pretty lame. A No Holds Barred match against the guy who until three segments ago was Michael Cole's lackey? Thats far from AWESOME.

Especially considering this was the focus of most the show and almost all the backstage segments.

And to top it off, Cena didnt look any more beatable after the match than before. Which would have helped, since I dont think anyone actually expects The Miz to win.

Unless he like...threatens some hostages.

Pretty forgettable Raw overall I think...

[bigtplaystew]

Push Zack Ryder. I wanna see the Broskis of Destruction on one of the big shows. Woo Woo Woo. You know it.

[MattitudeV2]

...Didn't Kelly win the Divas Championship last week? Or am I going insane and just imagined that?

you imagined it but I think that is where we are headed Kelly vs. Kharma

[Prophet]

The Miz/Cena arc for the night turned out pretty lame. A No Holds Barred match against the guy who until three segments ago was Michael Cole's lackey? Thats far from AWESOME.

Especially considering this was the focus of most the show and almost all the backstage segments.

And to top it off, Cena didnt look any more beatable after the match than before. Which would have helped, since I dont think anyone actually expects The Miz to win.

Unless he like...threatens some hostages.

Pretty forgettable Raw overall I think...

I thought the same thing. Like Sunday, halfway through the match, where the Miz is in peril, the video screen is going to light up, and A-Ri is going to be in some undisclosed location, holding a puppy hostage, and forcing it to watch the 1998 Brawl for All ... match by ridiculous match, until Cena gives up to save the puppy's sanity.

[milamber]

Tough Enough was hard to watch with the injuries but I'm really enjoying the show.

Raw had some really good angles leading into Over the Limit. I just hope the Miz v Cena match can deliver on its epic promise.

[OctoberRaven]

Actually, given that Cena gave two very loud and angry "I QUIT!"s, I think they'll pull a Rock vs Foley.

[Jaysin]

Nine Years Today. (http://youtu.be/hQX8LpJWLbg)- I miss Davey :(

[Fantabulous]

I wonder if his dad still thinks it was murder.

[juggaloninjalee]

Nine Years Today. (http://youtu.be/hQX8LpJWLbg)- I miss Davey :(

Today was an alright day and now that you reminded me of this I am just blah. I miss the Bulldog.

[LoNdOn]

Today was an alright day and now that you reminded me of this I am just blah. I miss the Bulldog.

I still fondly remember the day he sat two tables away from me in my local Harvester. He was a big dude. He is still missed greatly. :(

[Fantabulous]

I think it testifies to how ingrained steroid use is in wrestling that Smith's own son still decided to use them, even though they contributed greatly to the death of his father.

[Jaysin]

I think it testifies to how ingrained steroid use is in wrestling that Smith's own son still decided to use them, even though they contributed greatly to the death of his father.

My friend and I had a discussion about this awhile back.

On the topic of steroid use, has there been any Wellness Policy issues lately? It seems like its been FOREVER since anything happened and while its nice to think that everything is hunky dory in the locker room, I find it hard to believe.

[Fantabulous]

My friend and I had a discussion about this awhile back.

On the topic of steroid use, has there been any Wellness Policy issues lately? It seems like its been FOREVER since anything happened and while its nice to think that everything is hunky dory in the locker room, I find it hard to believe.
I believe the last known policy violation was Rey back in 2009.

[juggaloninjalee]

I think it testifies to how ingrained steroid use is in wrestling that Smith's own son still decided to use them, even though they contributed greatly to the death of his father.

I thought Bulldog died of an infection?

He broke his back on a trap door for the Ultimate Warrior in WCW under the ring and then got some kind of infection awhile later after a surgery or something.

[Fantabulous]

I thought Bulldog died of an infection?

He broke his back on a trap door for the Ultimate Warrior in WCW under the ring and then got some kind of infection awhile later after a surgery or something.

That happened in 1999. And while lying in his bed fighting for his life, WCW thoughtfully fired him via Fed-Ex.

Davey Boy died of a heart attack with his long-term drug use contributing to it.

[Gabbo]

Watched Jim Cornette rebooking the InVasion. Brilliant.

Never really liked Cornette, but maybe that was based more on his onscreen persona, particularly in the WWE in the 90's but he came across really well. He came across passionate, knowledgeable and fair. People say he rants and whatnot, but it all came across fairly. Not to mention honest, he says how he feels and doesn't care about friendships and relationships: people know Cornette and they either love or hate him but he is how he is.

The show was rather heavy on shoots, but I guess it had to be the way he booked it. Very interesting show though and a definite improvement on what we saw. Obviously you can't factor in things like injuries, personal squabbles and whatnot causing changes to plans but he tried to keep it realistic and ended up with a solid 'Mania. There were too many matches on it though, so maybe we should have been given a run down of the feuds and then a Mania card separate. I know he wanted a 5 hour show to demonstrate the significance of this event but very few people will sit through 5 hours of something.

All in all, really enjoyable and I'll check out more in future. Interested in seeing Raven book Hall and Nash but I'm not sure why they bothered with it. WCW booked the angle brilliantly enough. For a while at least.

[NoNeck]

The Raven one is almost as good as the Cornette one, in my opinion.

And the reason he's re-booking the Outsiders thing is because in Raven's re-imagining of the scenario, Hall and Nash invade ECW, not WCW.

It's cool.

[Zeel1]

Seeing that Bella/Natalya match made me realize why Victoria was always pushed as a heel in her last years with them. As a heel, she didn't have to get her shine, as it were, and therefore didn't make herself look blatantly better than the people she was inevitably going to be jobbing to... :p

[Zeel1]

Y'know, this is an issue that I see a lot with Cody's recent promos. He seems like he's supposed to be all dark, and crazy, and Phantom of the Opera-esque, but then it gets kind of silly. I actually sort of like the idea of someone putting the bag on someone's head and having them claim to be the city, but the accent and what was pretty much a "your mom" joke, it makes it seem a lot less dramatic. Just seems like a bit of a waste to have him be built up like that, just to go out and say "She ain't got no alibi, she ugly! She ugly~!" :p

[Candyman]

Watched Jim Cornette rebooking the InVasion. Brilliant.

Never really liked Cornette, but maybe that was based more on his onscreen persona, particularly in the WWE in the 90's but he came across really well. He came across passionate, knowledgeable and fair. People say he rants and whatnot, but it all came across fairly. Not to mention honest, he says how he feels and doesn't care about friendships and relationships: people know Cornette and they either love or hate him but he is how he is.

The show was rather heavy on shoots, but I guess it had to be the way he booked it. Very interesting show though and a definite improvement on what we saw. Obviously you can't factor in things like injuries, personal squabbles and whatnot causing changes to plans but he tried to keep it realistic and ended up with a solid 'Mania. There were too many matches on it though, so maybe we should have been given a run down of the feuds and then a Mania card separate. I know he wanted a 5 hour show to demonstrate the significance of this event but very few people will sit through 5 hours of something.

All in all, really enjoyable and I'll check out more in future. Interested in seeing Raven book Hall and Nash but I'm not sure why they bothered with it. WCW booked the angle brilliantly enough. For a while at least.

I was certainly entertained by it, and I was fascinated by the insight Cornette provided into what it's like on the "inside" of pro wrestling - especially the stuff about what WWE's relationship with OVW is like. It was very entertaining and informative.

But, honestly, when you actually look at his booking, and imagine what it would be like on TV...to be honest, it's not very good at all. Shoot fights? Really? That stuff might've worked in the 70's, and I'm sure it would be huge with a fringe minority of WWE fans, but I can't imagine it being much more than a gigantic flop. I think Cornette kind of realized this as he was going along, because he kept talking about how he didn't have much time to put it together. I have no doubt Cornette would've done better than what we actually got, but I think he'd have to throw this one in the trash and start from scratch. I definitely enjoyed the DVD as a whole, though.

Unrelated note - what's the over/under on how many people complain about them not mentioning Macho Man's death on Smackdown! tonight? I've already seen two on another message board. Clearly not the sharpest lot.

[Zeel1]

Unrelated note - what's the over/under on how many people complain about them not mentioning Macho Man's death on Smackdown! tonight? I've already seen two on another message board. Clearly not the sharpest lot.

Heh, yeah. I suppose they could have put a little "In memory of" thing at the beginning, but I'm fairly certain the editing on SmackDown is pretty much finished up by like Wednesday or Thursday, so... then again, they may have sent it to SyFy before the news broke. Don't know exactly how it's all timed.

[Remianen]

I know he wanted a 5 hour show to demonstrate the significance of this event but very few people will sit through 5 hours of something.

Doesn't matter. If they bought the PPV, whether they watched five minutes, an hour, or the whole thing, you still have their money. Short attention span theater is the order of the day but at least one show should shatter that mold into itty bitty pieces.

And I'm sure this is old but I literally fell out of my chair laughing when a friend sent this to me. I thought it was a joke: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/2963512/Great-Khali-has-promised-to-open-a-wrestling-school-in-India-to-train-a-new-generation-of-grapplers.html

[BurningHamster]

And I'm sure this is old but I literally fell out of my chair laughing when a friend sent this to me. I thought it was a joke: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/2963512/Great-Khali-has-promised-to-open-a-wrestling-school-in-India-to-train-a-new-generation-of-grapplers.html

Judging by Khali's experience in wrestling school I can only assume this is some attempt to deal with India's overpopulation problem.

[lazorbeak]

I was certainly entertained by it, and I was fascinated by the insight Cornette provided into what it's like on the "inside" of pro wrestling - especially the stuff about what WWE's relationship with OVW is like. It was very entertaining and informative.

But, honestly, when you actually look at his booking, and imagine what it would be like on TV...to be honest, it's not very good at all. Shoot fights? Really? That stuff might've worked in the 70's, and I'm sure it would be huge with a fringe minority of WWE fans, but I can't imagine it being much more than a gigantic flop. I think Cornette kind of realized this as he was going along, because he kept talking about how he didn't have much time to put it together. I have no doubt Cornette would've done better than what we actually got, but I think he'd have to throw this one in the trash and start from scratch. I definitely enjoyed the DVD as a whole, though.


I completely agree on your assessment of Cornette's actual booking. I wasn't particularly impressed and a lot of it had to do with worked shoots and Terry Funk working a main event program with Undertaker in 2001. I like Cornette but he's only got so many stories and his actual booking isn't great.

[ampulator]

I completely agree on your assessment of Cornette's actual booking. I wasn't particularly impressed and a lot of it had to do with worked shoots and Terry Funk working a main event program with Undertaker in 2001. I like Cornette but he's only got so many stories and his actual booking isn't great.
The thing is, Cornette is really good at WHAT not to book. His criticisms of what not-to-book are basically on the spot.

He's a good gatekeeper to wrestlecrap, but a good booker/write/creative all-around he isn't.

[liontamer]

I just watched the tough enough from monday and have a question.... obviously we don't know the specifics of the drill and what moves were called for and didn't see everything the trainers did, but they mentioned it was on AJ because it was supposed to be a crossbody. Anyone else think she was trying to do an axe handle? If it was a cross body I almost think it was largely her fault because she was completely vertical. He still has to keep it safe, but it looked to me like she did the wrong move.

[nucleardonkey]

I just watched the tough enough from monday and have a question.... obviously we don't know the specifics of the drill and what moves were called for and didn't see everything the trainers did, but they mentioned it was on AJ because it was supposed to be a crossbody. Anyone else think she was trying to do an axe handle? If it was a cross body I almost think it was largely her fault because she was completely vertical. He still has to keep it safe, but it looked to me like she did the wrong move.

I think why they were putting the blame on him was he may have been too close or something like that which prevented her from pulling off the cross body but also IIRC she panicked a little bit when she got on the top rope too and if that's the case I think she got scared and over thought the cross body and just jumped without really doing anything. I think they were wrong to put the blame on him at all. Plus from the looks of it early in the episode she switched from someone who can't even do a leap frog to suddenly becoming the trainers' darling and Trish's pet project so that didn't help AJ at all.

[ShaunGBD]

Iirc?

[Slim Jim]

I think it was going to be a crossbody but AJ got way too close so she had to improvise (which is why she ended up doing an axe handle instead) and then, after it went wrong, they were angry with AJ for causing Christina to call it on the fly.

[nucleardonkey]

Iirc?

If I remember correctly

I don't think anyone should be blamed for it really. Stuff like that happens all the time in wrestling and the trainers should have known that. Seeing how well she did at leap frogs I never would have trusted her to come off the top rope to begin with.

[slack]

She got that other girl hurt, so I don't feel bad for her at all. If it was a cross body, he got too close and she adjusted. But if I've learned anything from watching the intros of WWE DVDs injuries do happen.

[Teh_Showtime]

Cody Rhodes and DiBiase on SD were fun to watch. This is the most inspired I've seen Ted ever. I hope this angle they are doing turns into a well done eventual split and face turn for Ted

[ShaunGBD]

She got that other girl hurt, so I don't feel bad for her at all. If it was a cross body, he got too close and she adjusted. But if I've learned anything from watching the intros of WWE DVDs injuries do happen.

Your right but they can still be pissed about it. Don't think they should but they can be.

[Jaded]

Great quiz here on Sporcle - can you name the 100 wrestlers with the most WWF/WWE matches between 1980 and 2009. Just about to try.

http://www.sporcle.com/games/juror8/mostwwewwfmatches

Edit: Just a heads up, some guys it takes surnames for, others you need to type in full names. Annoying but still a cool quiz.

[BurningHamster]

She got that other girl hurt, so I don't feel bad for her at all. If it was a cross body, he got too close and she adjusted. But if I've learned anything from watching the intros of WWE DVDs injuries do happen.

Yeah seriously, Christina is horrible, injured someone else and has the most irritating way of talking BUT ... it's obvious they were trying to build her up through Tough Enough so ... they are going to put blame on AJ for injuring her. Weirdly they didn't really put much blame on Christina when the other girl got injured.

Ah reality TV, total crap.


Edit: took the quiz, 71/100 .... kind of embarrassed by some of the guys I missed.

[1234]

I swear this wasn't broadcast on Smackdown. If it was I don't know how I missed it.

http://youtu.be/41QmAZslZ1k?t=8m10s

[Tha Black Phenom]

It was the highlight of the show, I'm pretty sure you missed it :p

Was just awesome. Completely weird but awesome.

[Teh_Showtime]

can I get a .GIF of Orton's cartoon celebration?

So amazingly hilarious

[LoNdOn]

I swear this wasn't broadcast on Smackdown. If it was I don't know how I missed it.

http://youtu.be/41QmAZslZ1k?t=8m10s

I saw it. Damn near wet myself!

[joehelmer]

I saw it. Damn near wet myself!

The best on SmackDown for a long time, he went from Blandy Boreton to Awesome Orton for a few seconds there. :D

When I saw it I was like: :eek:!!

[Mr Rager]

That just left me wondering what sort of direction they're trying to take Orton's character in; I personally thought that the 'viper' gimmick, and pretty much being a face with heel characteristics, suited him. That moment made me think that maybe they're trying to turn him into a more traditional babyface now that he's supposed to be the top guy on Smackdown, and I'm not sure how that will turn out.

A decent lineup for Over The Limit tonight, if you're prepared to disregard Cole/Lawler as 15/20 minutes of garbage from the off. Hopefully Chavo and Sin Cara are given a good amount of time.

[juggaloninjalee]

Ok that Orton spot at the end was hilarious! Loved it.

[Tha Black Phenom]

can I get a .GIF of Orton's cartoon celebration?

So amazingly hilarious

http://i52.tinypic.com/i69zd0.gif

[20LEgend]

Looks like the Spirit Squad or something. If is out of character, I don't like it.

[LoNdOn]

Looks like the Spirit Squad or something. If is out of character, I don't like it.

I couldn't have loved it any more! :D

[Eisen-verse]

http://i52.tinypic.com/i69zd0.gif

Are you kidding me?

I love Orton, actually, and this made me want to watch Saturday morning cartoons or something. ha.

Cheers.

E-V

[Gabbo]

If they're lightening him up bring back Burn in My Light.

[1234]

Looks like the Spirit Squad or something. If is out of character, I don't like it.

KENNY...JOHNNY...MITCH...NICKY...MIKEY...RANDY... AND WE ARE THE SPIRIT SQUAD!!!

:p

[Teh_Showtime]

http://i52.tinypic.com/i69zd0.gif
that is so boss

[Hive]

Am I the only one madly impressed by Orton's agility?

[20LEgend]

KENNY...JOHNNY...MITCH...NICKY...MIKEY...RANDY... AND WE ARE THE SPIRIT SQUAD!!!

:p

Please. No. Don't bring the memories back :(

[Teh_Showtime]

Am I the only one madly impressed by Orton's agility?

I've always knew he was a fine athlete. Back when he was a rookie he had some great flashy moves in his arsenal. I think that was when everyone wanted an AJ Styles vs Orton dream feud. Then he just focused on being a slower worker, but I've always respected his versatility.

[The Shape]

I wouldn't mind if they lightened Orton up. For me it began at least a little bit with him doing his pose at WrestleMania. The thing is if they did they could easily just have him snap and bring back the Viper the moment it looked like it wasn't working out. Seems worth trying to make him more of an all-round babyface one more time, just for the hell of it.

With that said, it was probably just a one time piss-take and nothing's going to change.

[ampulator]

I've always knew he was a fine athlete. Back when he was a rookie he had some great flashy moves in his arsenal. I think that was when everyone wanted an AJ Styles vs Orton dream feud. Then he just focused on being a slower worker, but I've always respected his versatility.
One word: Shoulder.

His shoulder couldn't take it. And quite frankly, I don't blame him.

[Candyman]

http://i52.tinypic.com/i69zd0.gif

I think I broke the rewind button on my remote watching that over and over and over again. One of my favorite parts, which isn't in that gif, is the referee's reaction...he's completely frozen, staring at the spot in the air that Randy jumped up to reach.

It was just so weird. I'm not sure I like it.

[supershot]

It was just so weird. I'm not sure I like it.

This is my thoughts. At first I didn't believe what I just saw. It was just so odd and out of character.

[PoisonedSuperman]

Only got 57 on that quiz, it's pretty cool. I got all but 2 in the top 20, number 7 and 18. Its weird how when you're put on the spot you forget some pretty popular workers...

[The Celt]

Orton and Christian just had a MOTYC

[Mr Rager]

Yes!

[sabataged]

Orton and Christian just had a MOTYC

I thought it was excellent. They gel together really well I think. I am hoping for a Christian heel turn so we can get some more matches

[Mr Rager]

I thought it was excellent. They gel together really well I think. I am hoping for a Christian heel turn so we can get some more matches

It certainly looks as if they're slowly building towards a Christian turn with his post-match actions, prior to the handshake. Hopefully their recent matches are proving to WWE officials that Christian can be a top player on Smackdown.

[SaySo]

This is a pretty cool rap song on John Cena - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSWO8tva6Iw&feature=player_embedded

Titled We See You - TKO

[Hive]

In no way do I understand a Christian heel turn, especially not with the lack of faces they have already.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I actually cant believe how that ME went down. That was ridiculous, how can Miz be expected to be taken seriously, the kid quit after taking like 3 moves.

[MrOnu]

I'm not sure that main event was a good idea. I mean they did exactly what the Cena haters hate about him : getting his rear end handed for an extended period then it's the Superman syndrom. At least, they could have made Miz quit on something meaningfull. Anyway, I quit matches are generally a bad idea and this one was not an exception. Your options are way too limited and it rarely pays off the way you wanted.

I was surprised by other world title match. Not about the quality of the match, neither that I expected Christian to win the belt, but I thought Henry and/or Shaemus would be involved. That seemed the logical way to me to extend the Christian/Orton feud to Summerslam. I could have see a 4-Way at Capitol Punishment with quick eliminations at the end to make sure Christian/Orton are not the last two standing for an extended period and something to give a heel (Sheamus) something to complain about and get a one-on-one rematch at MITB. Then it would have been Christian vs Orton at Summerslam with a lenghty buildup.... and a high possibility of pissing off a lot more people by giving the title to Christian only to have him beat seconds later by a MITB winner.

Everything else was pretty forgettable. That was an average PPV on paper and it was an average delivery. Two other notes. Big Zeke is slowly getting good face pops, so they might have something there. Mason Ryan needs to learn to work as a heel, but he's so green that he shouldn't be there anyway.

[FINisher]

Orton vs. Christian saved atleast something of the PPV, other than that it was far below average show in my opinion, the main event was a total lackluster.. Should have had the World title matches the other way around for sure. More of Orton and Christian please, less of other stuff.

Also could we have normal lights for Sin Cara matches? Please? :p

[Comradebot]

Also could we have normal lights for Sin Cara matches? Please? :p

NO! Sin Cara must continue to wrestle on what appears to be CSI: Miami!

[LoNdOn]

Few thoughts on the PPV.

The lights for the Sin Cara matches are just flat out annoying and do nothing to further the man.

The kiss my foot match was the best out of their three encounters which really isn't saying much but I think I was just grateful that the match itself was fairly short.

The Christian vs Randy Orton match in my opinion is probably the best match I have seen this year and that is coming from somebody who up until recently strongly disliked Mr Orton. It surpassed their first match on Smackdown which I also considered to be one of the better matches I have seen this year.

Let CM Punk win a few matches because right now, he and the rest of the new Nexus look like jokes. (I really enjoyed the moment when Punk told Otunga and Perfect Jr to walk it off and I also liked his little tribute to Randy Savage during the match)

The Corre bore me and that is all I took form the IC title match.

Kelly Kelly and the Bellas well................

The main event was slow, uninteresting and far too long. Cena was never going to quit and his superman comebacks look ridiculous. I mean on RAW he no sold a "lead pipe"! Are you kidding me? Although that chair shot he took to the head was brutal!

Aside from the Orton/Christian match the PPV as a whole was lacking.

[Self]

Off-topic, but it's sorta WWE. Owen Hart died 12 years ago. I wrote a blog. I'm not usually a blog guy. This will probably be my first and last foray into it. Just felt I had to write it.

http://aosist.blogspot.com/2011/05/what-owen-hart-meant-to-me.html

Think this plus the Macho death are double teaming me, emotionally.

[Lexa90]

Although that chair shot he took to the head was brutal!



He hit the guardrail, not Cena's head

[LoNdOn]

He hit the guardrail, not Cena's head

Hmmmmm, looked like he cracked him square in the head. I'll take another look.

EDIT: You're right. Good use of camera work.

[20LEgend]

Off-topic, but it's sorta WWE. Owen Hart died 12 years ago. I wrote a blog. I'm not usually a blog guy. This will probably be my first and last foray into it. Just felt I had to write it.

http://aosist.blogspot.com/2011/05/what-owen-hart-meant-to-me.html

Think this plus the Macho death are double teaming me, emotionally.

Really nice piece.

[LoNdOn]

Off-topic, but it's sorta WWE. Owen Hart died 12 years ago. I wrote a blog. I'm not usually a blog guy. This will probably be my first and last foray into it. Just felt I had to write it.

http://aosist.blogspot.com/2011/05/what-owen-hart-meant-to-me.html

Think this plus the Macho death are double teaming me, emotionally.

Really well written Self. You should be proud of that.

[Teh_Showtime]

the crowd is going crazy for Riley!

good job WWE, dont mess this one up

[jjohns44]

go Alex Riley! Glad someone gave Miz his just deserves!

[Zeel1]

the crowd is going crazy for Riley!

good job WWE, dont mess this one up

Figured this would happen eventually. Seems he's going to be getting a real opportunity now, hope it works out. I love that he was already getting chants. Pretty nice segment overall.

Edit: I love how Cole's all humble and pretty much taking back everything he said. Kharma got a pretty good reaction when she came out. Interesting to see what happens when she's in the ring with eight other divas...

Edit 2: ...What the hell was that?

[GhostDogg]

why the hell is Kharma in the middle of the ring almost CRYING?

[supershot]

Interesting to see what happens when she's in the ring with eight other divas...



Well, it was interesting.

[The Two]

I'm no expert at lip reading, but I'm pretty sure the last thing she said before the break was, "I just want you all to like me. Please."

That segment had so much potential, Kong vs 8 Divas (inc. Gail Kim), but what happened was a complete letdown. After all that build, they may just have ruined Kong. This makes me a sad panda.

[Zeel1]

McIntyre getting some pyro. Seems almost... unfitting, actually. He's sort of meant to be devoid of flash. But I'm always cool with more pyro... :p

Really don't know what to think of that segment with Kharma, it certainly didn't look good...

[nucleardonkey]

I knew they'd never use Kong correctly. The first few weeks were great and tonight they had the perfect chance to cement her as the diva killer and make her legit and they failed miserably. It's only a matter of time before Santino rushes in to console her now. Why WWE? Why?

[GhostDogg]

Leave it to WWE to screw things up for INDY STARS. Dont believe me? Lets have the rundown please!

CM Punk
Colt Cabana
Evan Borne
Kaval (aka Low Ki)
Bryan Danielson
and now
Kong (Kharma)


Welcome to the club...

[Teh_Showtime]

I think it could be a jealousy angle for Kharma, I thought it was gonna look like when Kane decimated NXT season 1 on SD (before nexus)

And Lawler:"Im from Memphis, Derrick Rose cost us our wins"

[Tha Black Phenom]

Am I the only one who's waiting for this Kharma business to develop instead of labeling it letdown? I'm thinking it's just teasing for a later date, where she'll go bonkers.

[The Final Countdown]

Leave it to WWE to screw things up for INDY STARS. Dont believe me? Lets have the rundown please!

CM Punk
Colt Cabana
Evan Borne
Kaval (aka Low Ki)
Bryan Danielson
and now
Kong (Kharma)


Welcome to the club...
CM Punk? Really? I'd like for him to be pushed even stronger, but seriously...he' a multi-time world champion and a legit upper level guy. I'd hardly say they've screwed up where Punker is concerned.