The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Zeel1]

Am I the only one who's waiting for this Kharma business to develop instead of labeling it letdown? I'm thinking it's just teasing for a later date, where she'll go bonkers.

I would guess that it's just meant to make her look unstable. Remember in earlier segments, she laughed, stopped abruptly, kept laughing again... I actually sort of expected her to abruptly stop crying and start laughing, but it didn't happen.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Cue the well deserved tribute.

[Teh_Showtime]

and he is rumored to get a renewed push this summer. It could start tonight

Edit: re:Punk

[i effin rule]

Nice Macho style attire for Punk tonight.

[Comradebot]

CM Punk? Really? I'd like for him to be pushed even stronger, but seriously...he' a multi-time world champion and a legit upper level guy. I'd hardly say they've screwed up where Punker is concerned.

Agreed, Punk doesn't go on that list. The WWE has made it very, very apparent that they want him to be a longterm cornerstone of the company. Sadly, this whole naming rights business is screwing with that.

But, again, multi-time world champ, regularly a prominent figure on television, pretty damn over... you can't ask for much more. If you are, then you're just being silly.

Danielson, I feel, has been booked pretty solidly so far. Only been around for about a year now in the WWE, a bit too soon to start calling him a failure still. He's a former US champion, and, again, he's been consistently on TV.

Evan Bourne... well, let's be honest: he was never going to be a huge star in the WWE. Namely, he's never going to be a top level guy in the company. His amazing in-ring talents aside, he's still a short, scrawny white guy who rightfully never comes close to a microphone. A superstar in the WWE that does not make.

Colt and Low Ki, I can agree with. No idea what happened with those two, but they dropped the ball.

And, again, too early to call Kong/Kharma. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt here and say the recent angle is leading to something else. Personally, I think she's just frakking with the other Divas.... which if so, it'd be brilliant.


Still GhostDogg, your "rundown of ruined indy stars" kinda sucks. Hard. I'm confident someone in less need of sleep than myself could do an opposite rundown of ex-indy stars that have had tremendous success in the WWE (which I'd personally include CM Punk on... and Sheamus, who appeared to be quite the star over across the pond) Fact is, a good chunk of the WWE/F's stars were, at one point, stars on the independent circuit. The only reason why a sizeable chunk weren't in the last couple decades is due to the existence of WCW. With two major companies vying for every potential talent out there in order to beat the other, few guys with talent were unlucky enough to end up unsigned by either for an extended period of time, and even more were snatched up into training long before they even made their in-ring debut. Never know when you just started training a guy who will eventually become your opponents top heel and future 13 world champion (bravo, WCW).


The WWE doesn't misuse former indy stars anymore than they misuse any of their other talent. Kane's spent his entire career with the WWE, and look how many times they've used him about as horribly as possible. I miss the Big Red Machine...

[supershot]

First orton now cena... Whats goin on here...

[Prophet]

Wasn't Colt a casualty of bad placement? Like something happened that he was part of, and it cost him his job, sort of thing?

And I have to say, every time I think "I can't appreciate CM Punk any more than I do right now" he goes and does something even more awesome. The trunks were really a nice touch.

[nucleardonkey]

First orton now cena... Whats goin on here...

They're preparing for WWE's next branch away from wrestling....the official WWE Olympic team. They're competing in the high jump.

[angeldelayette]

Maybe I missed it but I am surprised the commentary didn't pick up on CM Punk using Bret Hart's five moves of doom. The whole Russian Legsweep, backbreaker, etc. that leads to the Sharpshooter. It didn't seem like they said a word about that.

[nucleardonkey]

Maybe I missed it but I am surprised the commentary didn't pick up on CM Punk using Bret Hart's five moves of death. The whole Russian Legsweep, backbreaker, etc. that leads to the Sharpshooter. It didn't seem like they said a word about that.

That's my big gripe with modern commentators. Punk went out of his way to tell this great story building to Bret finally snapping and taking him out and the commentators just ignored the whole story as if Punk always does Russian legsweeps, backbreakers, and elbows from the second rope.

[Zeel1]

Well in fairness, the five moves of death is a smark thing. It's not like they'd mention it by that name. They could say that he was doing a lot of moves Bret did, but I mean, Russian legsweeps, backbreakers and elbows from the second rope are all pretty common moves... it's not like he and Truth hit the Hart Attack or anything.

[nucleardonkey]

Well in fairness, the five moves of death is a smark thing. It's not like they'd mention it by that name. They could say that he was doing a lot of moves Bret did, but I mean, Russian legsweeps, backbreakers and elbows from the second rope are all pretty common moves... it's not like he and Truth hit the Hart Attack or anything.

That would be true had Punk not made it a point to taunt Bret while doing his moves.

[milamber]

Mysterio v Truth - I usually don't enjoy watching Truth wrestle but that changed with this match.

Zeke v Barrett - Interesting match between 2 wrestlers who are a little generic in-ring. Both could be huge with a bit of work.

Sin Cara v Chavo - Match of the night so far from 2 masters of the ring.

Kane/Show v Ryan/Punk - Nice to see some decent tag teams emerging in the tag division.

Christian v Orton - These guys are really bringing the best out of each other in the ring. Orton's newfangled submission was cool and again they pulled off some spectacular near-falls. Match of the night.

King v Cole - Hilarious.

Miz/Riley v Cena - Much better than expected. The match was choreographed perfectly until the last few minutes. Cena's great when he's on the defensive and taking a beating. The letdown was that Miz caved too quickly and looked like a p***y at the end.

[Self]

Really enjoyed Tough Enough. Glad AJ shined at something before he got sent home. Big Andy crying was a bit weird though.

[lazorbeak]

Agreed, Punk doesn't go on that list. The WWE has made it very, very apparent that they want him to be a longterm cornerstone of the company. Sadly, this whole naming rights business is screwing with that.

But, again, multi-time world champ, regularly a prominent figure on television, pretty damn over... you can't ask for much more. If you are, then you're just being silly.

Danielson, I feel, has been booked pretty solidly so far. Only been around for about a year now in the WWE, a bit too soon to start calling him a failure still. He's a former US champion, and, again, he's been consistently on TV.

Danielson won the US title from the Miz just before Miz got into the title picture and while he was still a top heel, and has put on some incredible matches. Like you said with Bourne, there's only so much you can do with white dudes under 5'10 who can't use a mic.

Evan Bourne... well, let's be honest: he was never going to be a huge star in the WWE. Namely, he's never going to be a top level guy in the company. His amazing in-ring talents aside, he's still a short, scrawny white guy who rightfully never comes close to a microphone. A superstar in the WWE that does not make.

Considering the talk when he went to Raw was he'd be on the future endeavored list, Bourne's had a great run, and the only thing keeping it from being even greater is the fact that he went down with an injury that killed his summer momentum. But last year he was tagging with John Cena, feuding with Chris Jericho, and generally looking far stronger than anybody expected.

Colt and Low Ki, I can agree with. No idea what happened with those two, but they dropped the ball.

Colt got undercut by his awful name (Scotty Goldman), and was never really given a chance to recover (the same thing happened to Brent Albright aka Gunner Scott). Low Ki would've probably had a decent run in WWE as a lower card guy, but he asked for his release so he could go back to Japan and the indys, where he makes similar money and doesn't spend his time being forced to sell other people's offense. But again, he's tiny, he works strong style, he has the charisma of a block of wood; what do you want WWE to do, make him US champ? Pairing him up with Lay-Cool was a good idea, but on his own, he's just a good worker with an unusual style.

Didn't watch Raw and not too excited about what I'm hearing re: Kharma, but I'll see where it goes rather than use this as proof positive that WWE ruins indy talent.

[milamber]

Raw:

Nexus finally win a title. Didn't expect it, though.

Miz/Riley segment was awesome.

Kharma segment was weird. Is she trying to psych out the divas?

"Where'd you learn how to count -- Canada?" I don't mind Punk losing the tag match because it was an exciting finish. Time for Punk to get a title shot against Cena.

[Candyman]

Am I the only one who's waiting for this Kharma business to develop instead of labeling it letdown? I'm thinking it's just teasing for a later date, where she'll go bonkers.

Sadly, you probably are the only one...people just never seem to learn to have patience and let things play out. I thought it was really weird, and I definitely didn't like it, but let's see where they're going.

Still GhostDogg, your "rundown of ruined indy stars" kinda sucks. Hard. I'm confident someone in less need of sleep than myself could do an opposite rundown of ex-indy stars that have had tremendous success in the WWE (which I'd personally include CM Punk on... and Sheamus, who appeared to be quite the star over across the pond) Fact is, a good chunk of the WWE/F's stars were, at one point, stars on the independent circuit. The only reason why a sizeable chunk weren't in the last couple decades is due to the existence of WCW. With two major companies vying for every potential talent out there in order to beat the other, few guys with talent were unlucky enough to end up unsigned by either for an extended period of time, and even more were snatched up into training long before they even made their in-ring debut. Never know when you just started training a guy who will eventually become your opponents top heel and future 13 world champion (bravo, WCW).


The WWE doesn't misuse former indy stars anymore than they misuse any of their other talent. Kane's spent his entire career with the WWE, and look how many times they've used him about as horribly as possible. I miss the Big Red Machine...

Thank you. I was about to lose my mind when I saw that list. You dismantled it better than I could've. Except for Kaval, because you have to remember that he simply didn't like being in the WWE and asked for his release. We have no idea what the WWE was going to do with him.

Wasn't Colt a casualty of bad placement? Like something happened that he was part of, and it cost him his job, sort of thing?

And I have to say, every time I think "I can't appreciate CM Punk any more than I do right now" he goes and does something even more awesome. The trunks were really a nice touch.

Of all the guys on that indy list, Colt is the one (and only one) that you could actually say the WWE misused or wasted. He was entertaining and he had a following...I didn't get it. Use him as a commentator or backstage interview guy, at least. And I agree, Punk's tribute to Savage were AWESOME.

That would be true had Punk not made it a point to taunt Bret while doing his moves.

Agreed. It was part of the story of the match. They should've mentioned it.

Really enjoyed Tough Enough. Glad AJ shined at something before he got sent home. Big Andy crying was a bit weird though.

Andy's whole reaction was weird to me. I never would've expected him to be so passionate and angry.

[Candyman]

Just saw this on Wrestling Observer, could explain a lot.

"-- The Kharma deal last night was her blow-off for the time being. It is believed she'll be out for over nine months. "

...pregnancy?

[Mr Rager]

Just watched Raw, Punk made that main event. Easily my favourite wrestler right now.

[Rone Rivendale]

Would it be totally insensitive if I said it can't be pregnancy cuz no one would want to have sex with Kharma? :p

Yes, it probably would. So I won't say it. I will say though, if it IS the reason, it sure is bad timeing. She could have had a child first and then signed on with the WWE. Unless WWE are going to pay her while she is away, that would be genius.

[nucleardonkey]

Would it be totally insensitive if I said it can't be pregnancy cuz no one would want to have sex with Kharma? :p

I'd do her...but then again I'm not really a fan of the typical Barbie type. I don't like being able to count the ribs on my women from across the room. :D

[Candyman]

Would it be totally insensitive if I said it can't be pregnancy cuz no one would want to have sex with Kharma? :p

Yes, it probably would. So I won't say it. I will say though, if it IS the reason, it sure is bad timeing. She could have had a child first and then signed on with the WWE. Unless WWE are going to pay her while she is away, that would be genius.

Haha, insensitive, but I'm sure you wouldn't be the only one thinking it. And yeah, definitely awful timing, no matter what's keeping her away. (If the report is true.) She was getting a push that we've never seen from a woman, and only a few men(Yokozuna, Brock Lesnar).

[Jaysin]

Low Ki would've probably had a decent run in WWE as a lower card guy, but he asked for his release so he could go back to Japan and the indys, where he makes similar money and doesn't spend his time being forced to sell other people's offense. But again, he's tiny, he works strong style, he has the charisma of a block of wood; what do you want WWE to do, make him US champ? Pairing him up with Lay-Cool was a good idea, but on his own, he's just a good worker with an unusual style.

According to Low Ki, pairing him with Lay Cool was meant as a punishment.

[crownsy]

According to Low Ki, pairing him with Lay Cool was meant as a punishment.

First, let me say that I really, really enjoy low ki.

That said, every qoute since he asked for his release makes me think he though winning nxt= instant m/e status. It seems to me that what he resented about the wwe's handling of him was they didn't immediately push him as a world champion.

I just think he has a higher opinion of himself and what he deserved to be pushed as than did a rational worker of his errr stature and promo abilities.

I mean not counting nxt, he asked for his release right after he wasn't put over ziggler, a guy they had spent two years building up to the UMC and he snapped.

[juggaloninjalee]

First, let me say that I really, really enjoy low ki.

That said, every qoute since he asked for his release makes me think he though winning nxt= instant m/e status. It seems to me that what he resented about the wwe's handling of him was they didn't immediately push him as a world champion.

I just think he has a higher opinion of himself and what he deserved to be pushed as than did a rational worker of his errr stature and promo abilities.

I mean not counting nxt, he asked for his release right after he wasn't put over ziggler, a guy they had spent two years building up to the UMC and he snapped.

While I think he is very talented he is very egotistical. I hope he never holds the top belt in any of the bigger promotions. Secondary titles are fine though. I wanted him to do well on NXT and was glad he won it. He has came across bad personally to me.

[ampulator]

You know, Low Ki is a talented guy. He does good matches. He works extremely hard. But everything I hear about him, he's not exactly the nicest guy, and he certainly holds a high opinion of himself. Nothing wrong with that, but one way or another, he wouldn't be happy in the WWE.

And honestly, since the end of WCW, WWE has no incentive to push ANY outside stars, even minor ones. Their interest is mainly pushing their own, even when there are cases where it would be actually easier to use an outside star for it.

[critical-23]

Dunno about all this Low Ki business but look at this:

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z359/sstwill26/073.jpg

Who wouldn't hit that?? (I know alot of you wouldn't but I'd drop ALOT of people on their head just to be first in line LOL)

[Jaysin]

Dunno about all this Low Ki business but look at this:

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z359/sstwill26/073.jpg

Who wouldn't hit that?? (I know alot of you wouldn't but I'd drop ALOT of people on their head just to be first in line LOL)

She still looks like a man in drag to me...

[bigtplaystew]

Dunno about all this Low Ki business but look at this:

http://i1185.photobucket.com/albums/z359/sstwill26/073.jpg

Who wouldn't hit that?? (I know alot of you wouldn't but I'd drop ALOT of people on their head just to be first in line LOL)

That is ALOT of woman... although not really a bad thing.. :-)

I'm a huge fan of Awesome Kong. I first saw her when she was with TNA and in person I was in awe. She's got an amazing presence and a natural charisma alot of the divas don't have there. They'll probably build her up and bury her most likely though. But I am holding out some hope they either make Superstars a real show or add another hour so that the Divas can get a few more matches.

Although she might have hurt herself... rumor has it she's pregnant.

[critical-23]

That is ALOT of woman... although not really a bad thing.. :-)

I'm a huge fan of Awesome Kong. I first saw her when she was with TNA and in person I was in awe. She's got an amazing presence and a natural charisma alot of the divas don't have there. They'll probably build her up and bury her most likely though. But I am holding out some hope they either make Superstars a real show or add another hour so that the Divas can get a few more matches.

Although she might have hurt herself... rumor has it she's pregnant.

LOP.net confirmed that she is indeed preggers (and her boyfriend is a big cornfed guy so that baby is gonna be a big'un) plus they WWE wants her to lose weight (she's 272 lbs which has me beat by two pounds) which might be harder for her to do with her being pregnant.

[Hive]

plus they WWE wants her to lose weight

They WHAT? The big deal about her is her frickin' weight! If they wanted another pixie, why sign her in the first place? They're crazy. Crazy, I tell you all! :eek:

[crownsy]

LOP.net confirmed that she is indeed preggers (and her boyfriend is a big cornfed guy so that baby is gonna be a big'un) plus they WWE wants her to lose weight (she's 272 lbs which has me beat by two pounds) which might be harder for her to do with her being pregnant.

Whats your source for the E' wanting her to lose weight?

Not being criticle, just wondering.

[TheLeviticalLawKid3]

Wait, Kong's pregnant?

[Mr Rager]

LOP.net confirmed that she is indeed preggers (and her boyfriend is a big cornfed guy so that baby is gonna be a big'un) plus they WWE wants her to lose weight (she's 272 lbs which has me beat by two pounds) which might be harder for her to do with her being pregnant.

I really don't see what this would achieve.

[critical-23]

Whats your source for the E' wanting her to lose weight?

Not being criticle, just wondering.

LOP.net or www.lordsofpain.net. This is where I get all MY news from anyways. Pretty accurate website when it comes to rumors and stuff and not many pop-up ads.

[MrCanada]

LOP.net or www.lordsofpain.net. This is where I get all MY news from anyways. Pretty accurate website when it comes to rumors and stuff and not many pop-up ads.

pretty much all sited just steal from PWinsider or the Observer. Best place to probably go is 411mania.com if you ask me. Since they dont post bull**** EVER unlike a lot of those other, only-wrestling, sites like LoP and WrestleZone.

[The Final Countdown]

pretty much all sited just steal from PWinsider or the Observer. Best place to probably go is 411mania.com if you ask me. Since they dont post bull**** EVER unlike a lot of those other, only-wrestling, sites like LoP and WrestleZone.
The last time I went to 411, my computer went nuts.

[Teh_Showtime]

I generally use the torch (PWT) but they seem to be a few hours late with stuff

[juggaloninjalee]

I use PWT, and NoDQ.com

[tommyb]

I really don't see what this would achieve.

Possibly they want her to have a more Chyna like, muscular look. I'm grasping at straws a little. There's also a chance that they want her to be little smaller so that she can compete more realistically with the other divas. That may seem like it would hurt her, but actually it may be good for her in the long run as it would mean that there is more to do with her after the 'debuting monster' thing wears off. If she's a little smaller (not diva small), and capable of fitting into the division - not just as a special attraction - then she could probably remain a serious competitor for longer.

[Jaysin]

So I'm watching Raw and I just finished the tag title match...CM Punk is just awesome. I hope that when his ring career is done he becomes a color commentator.

I teared up during Raw's Macho Man tribute

CM Punk wearing Macho Man tribute gear=<3

[TakerNGN74]

CM Punk wearing Macho Man tribute gear=<3

When I first saw Punk come out and saw the color of his tights I was like WTF why is he wearing pink. Then I figured it out that he was doing it to pay tribute to Savage which in my book made it totally awesome!

[James Casey]

Would it be totally insensitive if I said it can't be pregnancy cuz no one would want to have sex with Kharma? :p

Yes, it probably would. So I won't say it. I will say though, if it IS the reason, it sure is bad timeing. She could have had a child first and then signed on with the WWE. Unless WWE are going to pay her while she is away, that would be genius.

Pregnancy? Sometimes it's unplanned! :p

In all seriousness, it seems incredibly strange timing, but I guess there really is no stopping fate. WWE wouldn't chance putting a pregnant woman in the ring (although I know some female athletes continue to compete until well into their nine months). Great news for her, not so great for any chance of the Diva division developing over the next year or so.

[Fantabulous]

I wonder if the people knocking Kharma for her look are much to look at themselves?

[Slim Jim]

Everyone on the internet is outstandingly gorgeous.

[Fantabulous]

Everyone on the internet is outstandingly gorgeous.

And possessing of a giant penis and the ability to make their pecs dance.

[The Shape]

And possessing of a giant penis and the ability to make their pecs dance.

Other way round in my case.


...What?

[milamber]

Smackdown:

Sin Cara v Chavo - Good rivalry but it's almost done.

Bryan v Rhodes - Very good match-up. Rematch please.

Big Zeke's growing on me. The Corre have been more interesting since the split.

Kane v Khali - The new Indian guy looks more interesting than both these guys. I hope he's a good wrestler.

AJ & Kaitlyn mentored by Natalya - Yay!

Triple Threat - Good match. Happy Sheamus won.

[Teh_Showtime]

soo I was bored and decided to watch some CM Punk. That promo he did on Jeff around the time his DVD came out, and his work on Raw's 900th episode, and of course the epic 2010 Rumble were all amazing.

[ZMAN]

Yeah, I don't see why they didn't move Punk to Smackdown after Edge's retirement and have him rule the show as the top heel. I think a SD push like that would have been best for him, similar to how they made Booker, JBL, and Edge run the show in the past. That way, Punk would remain the top guy without them having to knock Cena or Miz down. And with the way things are now, they could've done Christian/Orton vs. Punk/Nexus with Christian turning on Orton in the summer. o-well

[Nathers7]

What do you guys think will be the title match at Capital Punishment? Looks like a triple threat or a fatal four way, not sure what I'd prefer in all honesty. Think it's pretty obvious we will see a Christian heel turn soon, hopefully sooner rather than later, his face promos just don't do it for me compared to his 2005 work.

[Jaysin]

One of my favorite Christian moments is when he told Vince "I'm a main eventer and you know it!"

[sebsy]

What do you guys think will be the title match at Capital Punishment? Looks like a triple threat or a fatal four way, not sure what I'd prefer in all honesty. Think it's pretty obvious we will see a Christian heel turn soon, hopefully sooner rather than later, his face promos just don't do it for me compared to his 2005 work.

Most likely Henry to come down to ring and attack Orton after he RKO'd him this week. Christian to come down and make the save and there you have your fatal four way.

[20LEgend]

Had they had wanted to could WWE have signed Hogan, Nash, Hall, Goldberg and co. if they wanted to at the start of the invasion, or did their contracts with Time Warner prevent them from doing so?

[Hashasheen]

Had they had wanted to could WWE have signed Hogan, Nash, Hall, Goldberg and co. if they wanted to at the start of the invasion, or did their contracts with Time Warner prevent them from doing so?

They could have. If said men wanted to come work for Vince at a lower pay when they could just sit on their asses and get paid millions and keep their options open.

[20LEgend]

They could have. If said men wanted to come work for Vince at a lower pay when they could just sit on their asses and get paid millions and keep their options open.

Do you think any of them could have been convinced to join?

[Teh_Showtime]

Do you think any of them could have been convinced to join?
Not really in my honest opinion because the bulk of them that had the mega contracts also had the huge egos. No way Goldberg takes a salary 1/4th of what he makes and he actually has to be on the road.

Even though a Goldberg/Austin angle would have made so much money

[Fantabulous]

In theory, Vince could have worked with them a little; put together a deal where they would work the big cities on house shows, in return for a 'only' getting a high six-figure guarantee, but in exchange get a good deal on merchandise and PPV payoffs where, when it's all added up, the would make close to or as much as their Time Warner deal, especially if the angle hit big. And even botched, the actual Invasion PPV did the record number of buys for non-Wrestlemania PPV.

The problems with that are Vince being able to put ego aside to do the Invasion right (which he didn't, and he's never done the outsider angle correctly because he can't make even a perceived outsider that he actually owns look good at the expense of his own guys) and the WCW guys either not having a passion for the business (Goldberg) or simply being lazy (Nash and Hall) and not wanting to get off the couch for less than a $1.5M per year.

[PoisonedSuperman]

I don't know if I was getting paid more money to sit at home then to go to work then I would of done what all of those guys did and just sit home and when that contract was up then go to the new company.

[Candyman]

Do you think any of them could have been convinced to join?

IMO, if they could have been, they would have been. I can't imagine Vince willingly passing on those guys.

[Zeel1]

Having no sound during this segment makes R-Truth seem even more insane, somehow... gotta love live TV.

Oh, and ZACK RYDER SHIRT SIGHTING~!

EDIT: OH MY GOD, LITTLE JIMMY FINALLY DEBUTS!

[Mr Rager]

To the guy holding the sign:

'R-Truth Needs A Translator'

... Yes, yes he does.

[Zeel1]

Ziggey's hair's back to being bleach blond. Eh, atleast I can recognize him in zoom-out shots again. :p

[The Shape]

One of my favorite Christian moments is when he told Vince "I'm a main eventer and you know it!"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KtY7k1kgmrw He was so over then. So many golden promos. Anyone who said after he lost the title "he was never championship material" clearly forgot about this era.

[ampulator]

I thought he proved himself in TNA. That's why the WWE brought him back.

[Zeel1]

Kinda like A-Ry's new theme.

[Teh_Showtime]

Riley is so over, the crowd is into his every move. It almost impossible to mess this up.

[GhostDogg]

Holy CRAP
WWE is Breaking KAYFABE, when it comes to KONG!!

[Mr Rager]

Kharma's enygma pretty much just got killed before our eyes.

I know they've got to write her off due to her pregnancy, but surely there's a better way?

[Zeel1]

You know, last week actually makes sense now. She was begging them not to attack her for the babies' sake. Dunno how I didn't piece that together...

[nucleardonkey]

Uh oh...she called herself a wrestler. I sense a future endeavoring coming coon.

[Zeel1]

RYDER APPEAR- say, was he recording the ending of Z! Long Island Story there? He said "Follow me on twitter", had the Internet Championship, and I do believe Scott Stanford was recording it... on a cellphone... :p

[Zeel1]

Okay, so on this one wrestling site/forum I go to, I'm the admin there and I have my own little site where I post joke stories and such. One of them is this little "article" I started writing this about a year ago - albeit only got about a paragraph in... only just recently started working on it again. Thankfully, I still feel it's pretty relevant. It's all completely made up, of course, but I doubt I really have to tell you that... :p
__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ ______________
May 30th, 2011

Z-News: WWE puts out a ban on concussions!

For a very long time now, concussions, and the repercussions (Rhyme~) they have on the post-career lives of professional athletes, have been a hot topic in many a sport. As well as the short-term pain and anguish, the head injuries sustained could potentially alter the rest of your living days, the effects ranging from memory loss to paralysis, and of course death. So it's really no surprise that athlete's unions and support groups have called for action from the commissioners of the professional leagues. The NFL Players Association, in particular, have been very vocal in their campaign in taking concussions out of play, and the NFL have responded with new guidelines and rule changes designed to both make concussions less likely, and change the way the injury is handled when it is sustained.

But the breaking news today regarding this issue doesn't have anything to do with the NFL. Rather, it is the WWE that is taking action, as word out of Connecticut today is confirming the rumors that have been buzzing around for months now. Effective May 1st, an official ban on concussions has been declared. Anyone that sustains a concussion while under WWE contract will receive a 30 day suspension on the spot. They are really putting their foot down with this, and are showing no mercy at all to those who break this rule. In fact, it is being treated as part of the wellness policy, and thus counts as a strike on one's record, three of which would get you fired. As is predictable, this news has spanned quite a reaction from many wrestling personalities. But not all of them are giving quite the response one might expect...

"I don't get what the big deal is with these concussions," said a perplexed Kurt Angle, as he was writing an autograph for an orange, who he claimed was his biggest fan. "I got three concussions before breakfast this morning, and I'm totally fine." When told of some of the risks concussions pose, Angle just scoffed it off. "Look," He explained. "some people are just total pussies about this kind of thing. 'Oh, help me, help me, I can't feel the right side of my body' - quitcherbitchin'! Seriously man, just because you think one time that you're going to die if you keep going a single inch further, you let that slow you down? Hell, I felt like that yesterday morning. My heart hasn't beaten in three years, for God's sakes! And you're going to complain about one little arm that you can't use anymore?! Ugh..." He shook his head in utter disgust, before proceeding introduce me to his biggest fan, Naranja.

She was delicious!

Angle wasn't the only one who would know about concussions. Mick Foley is another man that certainly knows what a concussion is like - or atleast, should. Unfortunately, talking to him about this let us know about the horrors of concussions in a way that we truly didn't expect.

"You're asking me about concussions?" Asked Foley with a quizzical expression on his face - as well as the slightest smile, strangely enough. "Now why would you think I'd know something about that? I've never had one of those. Nor have I ever been in danger of it due to my job. I mean, come on, I just sell shrimp out of a van." He continued, with an inexplicable chuckle.

It was worse than we ever could have imagined. After so many concussions, the poor man has completely lost his mind. He doesn't remember going through them, what he does... he likely has no idea who he even is.

He continued this disturbing behavior by suddenly blurting out, "Nah, but I think their place is in the right heart on this one." As if suddenly bringing up that which he just told us he forgot wasn't bad enough, his words were starting to be fashioned in a comedic switch. And once again, he ended his statement with an odd laugh. He went on to say, "The on-going concussion problems definitely need to be attended to, and while I'm not quite sure how effective this method will be, I'm glad to see they're atleast trying."

Of course, at this point, I had stopped listening to his insane ramblings. I offered my sympathies to the poor man, putting my hand on his shoulder in comfort, which just seemed to perplex him.

"Um, I don't think you're reading me right, here..." He tells me, much to my dismay. As if it weren't tragic enough, now he was speaking gibberish. "I was just screwing around with you."

Screwing around. This is poor Mick Foley's life now.

This heartbreaking experience told me all that I needed to know about this issue. It needs to stop, here and now. But unfortunately, even after the totally just banning on this horrid affliction, people are still making the career - and life - ruining mistake of getting concussions. Such was sadly the case with young Cody Rhodes at a recent SmackDown! taping. The injury reportedly occurred during a match with Kofi Kingston, in which young Rhodes took the Trouble In Paradise in a very bad way. He stumbled his way back - no officials wanting to help him, due to their utter disgust - where everyone's worst fears were confirmed.

"Let me tell you," Said a humbled Cody Rhodes. "this was the biggest mistake I've made since the time I decided that wearing knee pads on your ankles would make you look cool. Seriously, what the hell was I thinking? I think that kick knocked something loose, 'cause suddenly I realize I've been looking like a total douchebag for the longest time. But, um... wait, was I talking about?" Upon being reminded of the purpose of the interview, Cody continued, "Ah yes, the concussion... sorry, my head's a little screwy right now... sorry, my head's a little screwy right now... but, uh, this was really a humbling experience for me. I really don't think I'll ever do it again."

Not only was Cody suspended for 30 days, but just to make sure the message was sent home, he was also fined $500,000 of Daddy Dusty's money. "I've totally learned my lesson." Said Cody with a weak smile. Or, atleast, one half of his mouth was smiling. The other side wasn't really working very well.

On a related note, the wild allegation that Cody's concussion was in fact somehow the fault of Kofi Kingston has started to arise. In response, Kingston was quoted as saying "Noooooooooot even!"

But despite this reminder that concussions are most certainly not on their way out of the business quite yet, many are still very hopeful of the future now that this law has been passed. And no one seems more excited than the man that arguably started this movement in the first place.

"This is EXACTLY what I was hoping for." Stated a very pleased Christopher Nowinski. "You know, I'm just... so fulfilled by this news. It makes me feel like all of my hard work in this field has really paid off... y'know, for once. I mean, finally, people are taking concussions as seriously as they've been needing to. I've gone through these things first-hand, and let me tell you, it's just... it's just unGodly. I mean, I... I lost everything, man." He continued with a saddened sniff. "It was... it was like Heroin all over again..." He finished, with a bit of a whimper, putting his hand over his mouth, trying to calm himself down.

"Speaking of Heroin," he continued, after regaining his composure, "I plan on basically being the Nikki Sixx of Pro Wrestling. 'Cause I mean, we've both been through it all - he's sucked Heroin out of a fire hose, I've had fluids drained from my brain with a fire hose - and we've both set out to help those that made the same mistake we made, as well as help keep people from making them in the future. Heh, so yeah... you can just call me Harvard Sixx~!"

We most certainly will not be calling him Harvard Sixx.

However, despite all of Nowinski's hard work in advancing this movement, it seems that there are still some people out there that just don't understand - or even worse, perhaps just don't care. And one of those people are Rey Mysterio, who, like Cody Rhodes, recently sustained a concussion of his own. However, unlike Cody, he seems to have no remorse whatsoever for his actions.

"I don't understand," Said a dazed Mysterio. "I was in the middle of a match with Sheamus at a house show last week, and we had this spot where he basically hit a Giant Throw that sent me head-first into the ringpost. Somehow, this spot didn't go very well, and... everything got all fuzzy. The match was stopped, the medics helped me to the back, and... they really seemed concerned at first. But then one of them said it looked like I had a concussion, and then it was like... like they just stopped caring. They dropped me on the floor, and they just... they looked at me like I did something criminal."

"I was just so damned disappointed in him." Said WWE's Head Medic, Simon DeVries. "I mean I really thought he put those kinds of problems behind him. He hasn't had any issues at all since he was suspended back in August of '09. To think that he's getting right back into trouble... it's just... it's just, y'know, goddammit Rey..." The poor, obviously wronged man sighs in disappointment, before burying his face into his hand. He continued on, "Yeah, we were all worried at first... ugh, to think I actually almost cried for him, that's how bad it looked. But then we got the news... a concussion? A goddamned concussion?! Now?! This soon after they were banned?! I mean, it's like he's just taunting us! He just... he just... RAAAGH!"

Dr. DeVries proceeded to punch a hole clear through the wall in anger, waking up the sleeping ring rats - otherwise known as FCW Wrestlers - that were sleeping off fatigue in the hospital beds in the process. This only made the good doctor even more angry. "Now look what he's done!" Yelled Dr. DeVries. "He just woke up these poor, starving, orphaned, abandoned street urchins! How could he do such a thing?! What is wrong with this guy?!"

The bastard Mysterio, after hearing this, had the gall to pretend that he didn't understand, like the severe ******* that he is.

"I don't get why they're all mad at me about this..." Said the bastard. "Surely they don't think I got a concussion on purpose, do they? ...Man, how is it that the guy with a screwed-up head is the only one that isn't talking nonsense?!"

And what of the other man that was in the ring that night, the other half of this injury, who some claim shares qutie a bit of the blame? Well, Sheamus has said that he is rather conflicted about this whole ordeal.

"I'm rather conflicted about this whole ordeal." Said Sheamus. "I mean, on one hand, I feel kinda bad about hurtin' 'em. But on the otha hand, he did break the rules... and I mean, that's something that you just don't do, fella."

'Something that you just don't do, fella' indeed. And to show this pitiful masked fella just how bad his behavior was, the WWE not only suspended him, but also had his daughter Aalyah turned over to Child Services. Upon hearing this news, Mysterio, like a typical worthless junkie, somehow found a way to convince himself that this punishment was unjust.

"What the hell?!" Said an alarmed Mysterio. "H-how could they do something like that?! ...Seriously, how could they do that? There's no way they have that kind of authority! And why would- I mean... why?! I didn't even do anything wrong!"

'Didn't do anything wrong'?! Oh yes, and I suppose Osama Bin Laden - or Usama, if you're a total douchebag - didn't do anything wrong either!

"That's just disappointing." Said Harvard Sixx with a sigh, after hearing about Mysterio's comment. "I mean, it's disheartening to see that some people that have fallen ill to this vice are being so resistant to the obviously pure-hearted help that the WWE is offering them."

But it seems that some things just can't be taught...

"I... I just don't understand!" Said that bastard Mysterio. "What in the holy mother of God is wrong with all of these people?! Quiero decir, querido Señor, ¿qué diablos está pasando?!" Yeeeeeaaah, I'll chalk that last bit of nonsense up to the concussion...

"What could possibly give them the right do this to me?!" He continued. "How could they deport my little Aalyah?!"

I stopped him to remind him that she wasn't deported, but was rather handed over to Child Services, to which he replied, "What's the difference?"

...Welp, he's got me there... Zeel1™ here, signing out for Z-News._____________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _______________

[ampulator]

To Zeel1: Cowflop just got real.

[milamber]

Kofi v Ziggler - Good win for Ziggler. Hope he takes the title off Kofi.

Like Alex Riley's entrance music. I'm praying for a No Holds Barred match between him and Miz at Capitol Punishment.

Mysterio v Punk - Punk's finally winning matches but will his PPV losing streak continue?

Kharma - What the hell are they going to do with the diva division for the next year?

Bourne v Swagger - Decent match between 2 wrestlers I like.

Cena v Truth - Truth's antics made this mildly entertaining. Good to see Cena lose.

[lazorbeak]

IMO, if they could have been, they would have been. I can't imagine Vince willingly passing on those guys.

The choices during the Invasion were either 1) buy out current contracts and re-negotiate smaller contracts (DDP, undercard guys), or 2) wait for bloated, stupidly large contracts to run out (Nash, Goldberg, Steiner, etc.) and then bring guys in at a reasonable rate.

So it's not so much Vince "willingly passed" as he was unwilling to make a guy like Goldberg receive a higher base pay than 99% of his roster. Also considering they bought the tape library, logos, etc. for under 3 million dollars, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to turn around and inflate that by buying out the stupidly large worker contracts that they avoided.

[juggaloninjalee]

The choices during the Invasion were either 1) buy out current contracts (WCW undercard guys) 2) re-negotiate smaller contracts (DDP), or 3) wait for bloated, stupidly large contracts to run out (Nash, Goldberg, Steiner, etc.) and then bring guys in at a reasonable rate.

So it's not so much Vince "willingly passed" as he was unwilling to make a guy like Goldberg receive a higher base pay than 99% of his roster. Also considering they bought the tape library, logos, etc. for under 3 million dollars, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to turn around and inflate that by buying out the stupidly large worker contracts that they avoided.

They could have bought out the contracts they did and slowly did an Invasion over the next year or so when peoples contracts ran up. Flair or Bischoff could have led the Invasion then. After the Invasion was underway the nWo could have been brought in to counter the Invasion.

[lazorbeak]

That's a long-term booking problem, not a "why didn't he get those guys" problem. I mean yes, if the Invasion had been some carefully thought out 24 month angle, things would've been better, but obviously that's pretty much the opposite of what happened.

[Candyman]

The choices during the Invasion were either 1) buy out current contracts and re-negotiate smaller contracts (DDP, undercard guys), or 2) wait for bloated, stupidly large contracts to run out (Nash, Goldberg, Steiner, etc.) and then bring guys in at a reasonable rate.

So it's not so much Vince "willingly passed" as he was unwilling to make a guy like Goldberg receive a higher base pay than 99% of his roster. Also considering they bought the tape library, logos, etc. for under 3 million dollars, it wouldn't make a lot of sense to turn around and inflate that by buying out the stupidly large worker contracts that they avoided.

See, that's the thing. In reality, 1) was never a choice at all. Remember, Vince has a Board of Directors and shareholders to answer to. Even if he wanted to buy out the big contracts, it never would have happened. I'm sure he offered them every penny he could to buy them out, and they said no. Remember, even when some guys took buyouts later(like Goldberg), it was AOL Time Warner paying not the WWF. (hence Goldberg doing a stint in Japan before he came to the WWF)

That's all I was saying. If it could've been done, it would've been done. Vince wouldn't have passed on the chance to bring them in if he could.

[ampulator]

See, that's the thing. In reality, 1) was never a choice at all. Remember, Vince has a Board of Directors and shareholders to answer to. Even if he wanted to buy out the big contracts, it never would have happened. I'm sure he offered them every penny he could to buy them out, and they said no. Remember, even when some guys took buyouts later(like Goldberg), it was AOL Time Warner paying not the WWF. (hence Goldberg doing a stint in Japan before he came to the WWF)

That's all I was saying. If it could've been done, it would've been done. Vince wouldn't have passed on the chance to bring them in if he could.
I'm not too sure. He was hurting because of the XFL. Despite what I say, and despite the fact that the XFL was a mistake on Vince's part, I didn't blame him for trying... I blamed for HOW he tried to do it. The XFL was not a bad idea, but it was certainly poor executed and overhyped. But the XFL... not a bad ideas their WBF.

But coming along with that was the issue of... money. And after losing that much money, he probably didn't feel he could afford those big contracts for WCW. And for your talk on shareholders, he owns a majority of the shares. The others don't mean diddly squat in terms of opinions if he really didn't care. If you own a clear majority, you really can choose to not listen to anyone else.

[GatorBait19]

I'm not too sure. He was hurting because of the XFL. Despite what I say, and despite the fact that the XFL was a mistake on Vince's part, I didn't blame him for trying... I blamed for HOW he tried to do it. The XFL was not a bad idea, but it was certainly poor executed and overhyped. But the XFL... not a bad ideas their WBF.

But coming along with that was the issue of... money. And after losing that much money, he probably didn't feel he could afford those big contracts for WCW. And for your talk on shareholders, he owns a majority of the shares. The others don't mean diddly squat in terms of opinions if he really didn't care. If you own a clear majority, you really can choose to not listen to anyone else.

yeah I believe the McMahons own like 96% of the voting power and the other 4% is spilt with 1% being stock holders (like hey I want to buy some wwe stock) and the other 3% split between Dunn and others within the company

[Linsolv]

Is it just me or did Cole comment on Swagger's "Gutwrench suplex?" Is 'powerbomb' now a no-no word, or is Cole just that awful at remembering words?

[ampulator]

Suplex is more of a wrestling move...

[Linsolv]

But it's pretty obviously not a suplex. To anyone with eyes.

[Remianen]

See, that's the thing. In reality, 1) was never a choice at all. Remember, Vince has a Board of Directors and shareholders to answer to.

Patently false. At no time has Vince ever had to answer to anyone but himself. Go look. The stock you buy in WWE is NON-VOTING. Part of the reason WWE stock will never reach the rarified heights of Google and Berkshire Hathaway is because investors (institutional or otherwise) will never have any real say in how the company is run. Well, that plus the fact their numbers will never reach the levels of a Google or Berkshire. The primary reason they even do analyst calls is for damage control (there are a lot of analysts who believe, rightly or wrongly, that the second W in the company's name stands for 'fail'. Just look at how many of them came out of the woodwork during the Benoit ordeal).

No, lazorbeak's right. It was VINCE deciding not to throw good money (i.e. his) after bad (i.e. Turner's). He got the most valuable part of the company (the IP and tape library) while at the same time, being able to stick it to his former rivals, forcing them to keep paying people to do nothing. Win/win.

[ampulator]

Patently false. At no time has Vince ever had to answer to anyone but himself. Go look. The stock you buy in WWE is NON-VOTING. Part of the reason WWE stock will never reach the rarified heights of Google and Berkshire Hathaway is because investors (institutional or otherwise) will never have any real say in how the company is run. Well, that plus the fact their numbers will never reach the levels of a Google or Berkshire. The primary reason they even do analyst calls is for damage control (there are a lot of analysts who believe, rightly or wrongly, that the second W in the company's name stands for 'fail'. Just look at how many of them came out of the woodwork during the Benoit ordeal).

No, lazorbeak's right. It was VINCE deciding not to throw good money (i.e. his) after bad (i.e. Turner's). He got the most valuable part of the company (the IP and tape library) while at the same time, being able to stick it to his former rivals, forcing them to keep paying people to do nothing. Win/win.
I agree completely, but I want to emphasize certain things. To be honest, I don't think it was just a vindication issue. If he really wanted those contracts-and I'm pretty sure he didn't-he could have gotten them. It would have cost him dearly, but he just didn't want them.

[lazorbeak]

And it's not like Scott Steiner was going to save up his million dollars and open a successful small business, despite attending a highly educated university. Eventually WCW guys had to bite the bullet and agree to work at a lower base rate with more incentives, something that wouldn't have happened if Vince prematurely brought in a bunch of overpaid, lazy guys who hadn't been relevant in years, if they'd ever been relevant.

[ZMAN]

People say the smart thing would have been to save the storyline for later on when other people's contracts ran out, but honestly I don't blame Vince for jumping right into it. I think anyone else in his position would have done the exact same thing. People forget how fast-pace and exciting wrestling was 10 years ago. I'm pretty sure when the buyout happened, hearts were racing and people wanted to see WWF vs. WCW right away. It was like a massive explosion just popped off and no one was prepared or knew how to contain it. So Vince jumping into the WWF vs. WCW storyline didn't really bother me, I can see how it didn't come off well at first.

However, once the storyline shifted into the WCW-ECW Alliance phase, Vinnie had no excuse. That **** was incredible, I don't know how he messed that up. I didn't even care about Sting, Goldberg, Flair or any of those guys at that point. I had forgotten about them completely. IMO, ECW made up for the lack of big WCW names. It was a nice recovery for the storyline, but still failed somehow at the end. I think I blame Stephanie, she really did kill a lot of the momentum when she was made the partial owner.

[JackKnifed72]

People say the smart thing would have been to save the storyline for later on when other people's contracts ran out, but honestly I don't blame Vince for jumping right into it. I think anyone else in his position would have done the exact same thing. People forget how fast-pace and exciting wrestling was 10 years ago. I'm pretty sure when the buyout happened, hearts were racing and people wanted to see WWF vs. WCW right away. It was like a massive explosion just popped off and no one was prepared or knew how to contain it. So Vince jumping into the WWF vs. WCW storyline didn't really bother me, I can see how it didn't come off well at first.

However, once the storyline shifted into the WCW-ECW Alliance phase, Vinnie had no excuse. That **** was incredible, I don't know how he messed that up. I didn't even care about Sting, Goldberg, Flair or any of those guys at that point. I had forgotten about them completely. IMO, ECW made up for the lack of big WCW names. It was a nice recovery for the storyline, but still failed somehow at the end. I think I blame Stephanie, she really did kill a lot of the momentum when she was made the partial owner.


I have to say I agree with the first part...what else could Vince have done at that point but the invasion? As far as paying millions (...and millions) to bring in Steiner, Sting, Goldberg etc...why would Vince do that? Yeah a few of those guys were over but, at the risk of stating the obvious, the WWF won! They won the Monday Night Wars big and had no reason to spend a small fortune on a handful of overpaid talent.

Where I disagree was, and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought overall the Invasion was really pretty good. :eek: And how else was it going to end? Of course the WWF was going to win at Survivor Series!

[Slim Jim]

The way I had planned to run it in a diary that didn't last was to run with a similar initial build up as real life (WCW/ECW alliance up to Survivor Series) except I was going to have the WCW guys look more legit rather than throwing them Austin (though I was going to give them Big Show/The Giant) and some of the ECW guys (Rhino and Raven, in particular) and then for Survivor Series, when the WCW guys were six months or so cheaper, first Sting was going to debut as the final member of Team WCW, and then once Team WWF had won, rather than it being Flair that became Vince's rival, it was going to be Bischoff and at that point a couple more would have been brought in (Steiner and Goldberg, to name two) and then a little while later, probably about Rumble time, the NWO hits town, and it builds to a climax at Wrestlemania.

That way, there's immediate Invasion, you get to build a couple of new stars from the initial WCW/ECW lot, you get the big names revitalising the Invasion and it culminates at the biggest show of the year. Also, as another fall-out from the Invasion, I'd have kept Starrcade, and used it as the sixth 'big' PPV in the six-big-six-small system I pretty much always implement (Rumble-Mania-KOTR-SSlam-Starrcade-SSeries) with every other month being a showpiece event.

[Self]

Ah, Tough Enough. I liked seeing Luke & Jeremiah turn on each other a little bit, but Luke really doesn't come off well responding to criticism from Stone Cold. Never has a good answer for him.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I have to say I agree with the first part...what else could Vince have done at that point but the invasion? As far as paying millions (...and millions) to bring in Steiner, Sting, Goldberg etc...why would Vince do that? Yeah a few of those guys were over but, at the risk of stating the obvious, the WWF won! They won the Monday Night Wars big and had no reason to spend a small fortune on a handful of overpaid talent.

Where I disagree was, and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought overall the Invasion was really pretty good. :eek: And how else was it going to end? Of course the WWF was going to win at Survivor Series!

I liked the Invasion too. But then again I was a 10 year old mark at the time, pretty much anything would have been gold for me I'd guess.

[eayragt]

I'm a sad panda. Finally got around to watching Over the Limit. Highlight was Kane already being angry at the Rapture not happening comment, finally beating his Kanenites promo with Rock as his funniest ever promo... and no-one's mentioned it!?!

And WWE, I take it back. You are giving Christian the chance to have awesome matches with someone who's matches normally bore me to death. Instead of one PPV title defence, you've let Christian prove how great he is with his title loss and PPV rematch. Now I want to see him still in the Main Event in six months time. Please.

[ampulator]

I'm a sad panda. Finally got around to watching Over the Limit. Highlight was Kane already being angry at the Rapture not happening comment, finally beating his Kanenites promo with Rock as his funniest ever promo... and no-one's mentioned it!?!

And WWE, I take it back. You are giving Christian the chance to have awesome matches with someone who's matches normally bore me to death. Instead of one PPV title defence, you've let Christian prove how great he is with his title loss and PPV rematch. Now I want to see him still in the Main Event in six months time. Please.
You are two months late for April Fools, dude.

[MrOnu]

Finally got around the last Raw and I have to say that I'm impressed by the reaction Alex Riley got. Sure, he's going against one of the hottest heel, it guarantees a minimal face pop, but so far people really want him to hurt Miz. If they handle the feud correctly, I believe they could have a decently over Riley hoovering in the midcard for the foresable future. The hard part would obviously be the after-Miz part of that deal.

Decent way to get around Kong pregnancy storyline wise. It breaks kayfabe, some people are not going to like it, but if they make sure we don't forget her, they might have a moderately over face to work with in a year. Not to mention that meanwhile, they could use that whole thing to promote their corporate image (we treat our women well, we encourage them to have a family, etc.).

[Rone Rivendale]

I have been watching wrestling since 1985. There have been two moments in my viewing history that made me go HOLY ****.

The 1st was Kevin Nash throwing Rey Mysterio Jr into the trailer during the first days of the original NWO. It was the first time since I was little and found out that wrestling was 'fake' that I actually 'marked out' at something. I just could not believe what Hall and Nash were doing. And of course Hogan turning heel and joining the NWO was just insane.

The 2nd was the day that Shane McMahon announced that he had bought WCW out from Vince's nose. It was the 1st time I can remember calling up all my friends and being like "Are you watching this?!"

Yeah, the whole Invasion thing turned out to be crap. But it sure as heck had the potenital to be bigger than anything that came before it.

[ZMAN]

Where I disagree was, and maybe I'm in the minority here, but I thought overall the Invasion was really pretty good. And how else was it going to end? Of course the WWF was going to win at Survivor Series!

Well, IIRC, the idea was supposed to be that this would be the start of the whole brand split biz, with WCW taking Smackdown's Thursday night spot, and WWF remaining on Monday nights. So yeah, it should have ended with WWF winning, but at the same time not squashing WCW/ECW. That way they could be taken serious as a separate brand. But that didn't happen, I guess because Vince didn't like the idea of there being a non-WWF show, even though he gave ECW it's own show like 4 years later...

I'll agree that the Invasion did have a lot of good moments though, for sure. Probably some of the best comedy segments ever done in WWE.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Well, IIRC, the idea was supposed to be that this would be the start of the whole brand split biz, with WCW taking Smackdown's Thursday night spot, and WWF remaining on Monday nights. So yeah, it should have ended with WWF winning, but at the same time not squashing WCW/ECW. That way they could be taken serious as a separate brand. But that didn't happen, I guess because Vince didn't like the idea of there being a non-WWF show, even though he gave ECW it's own show like 4 years later...

I'll agree that the Invasion did have a lot of good moments though, for sure. Probably some of the best comedy segments ever done in WWE.

I think it was he wanted to keep WCW on the air from March but he couldn't get a slot that worked and he abandoned the idea and went ahead with what he did.

[bigtplaystew]

The invasion was right around when I stopped watching wrestling for a little while. I felt like they forced too many heel turns with that. And turning Stone Cold in the way they did it was just stupid. It was a poor man's NWO angle to me.

I'd been a net smark for years at that point and I got fed up with everything. All the smarks pretending to know what was going on and what was supposed to happen. I just had to step away from it for awhile.

I still watched wrestlemanias with my buddies and stuff but I had no interest in watching it weekly.

I got back into it a few years ago again first through ring of honor, then I started watching WWE pretty regularly and TNA. Now I'm back hooked into wrestling again but I try to stay away from the sites and the podcasts. Those places are full of "Wrestling fans" who actually hate wrestling but for some reason watch it just to make themselves mad.

Can't take it too seriously. I just like to watch it for the fun stuff. I wish they had more crazy characters over the "real" characters but whatever. I watch every week and still enjoy going to events.

[Fantabulous]

The WWF-ized version of Nitro was supposed to start in June of 2001; they even announced a provisional date. But TNN didn't want another wrestling show and none of the other networks Vince could go to wanted it, so Vince went with the idea of turning Smackdown into the the WCW show instead. Of course, the infamous Booker T/Buff Bagwell match killed that.

[praguepride]

I wish they had more crazy characters over the "real" characters but whatever.

This. The neat thing about the Attitude era was that you still had your "characters" but also mixed in some real "badass/no gimmick needed" type of characters as well.

Now, it's swung completely over to the other end where everyone is just wrestling under their name (or their stage name etc.). It was a lot easier to keep track of wrestlers as a casual fan then it is now. Now everything is so...bland. You can have characters that fit into modern market, take Kane and Undertaker. Sure their gimmicks might be "dated" (i.e. Deadman, Demon etc.) but at least you could tell them apart and knew what they stood for :D

[shawn michaels 82]

This. The neat thing about the Attitude era was that you still had your "characters" but also mixed in some real "badass/no gimmick needed" type of characters as well.

Now, it's swung completely over to the other end where everyone is just wrestling under their name (or their stage name etc.). It was a lot easier to keep track of wrestlers as a casual fan then it is now. Now everything is so...bland. You can have characters that fit into modern market, take Kane and Undertaker. Sure their gimmicks might be "dated" (i.e. Deadman, Demon etc.) but at least you could tell them apart and knew what they stood for :D

Would the old taker with the special lights and all that supernatural parafernalia be a crazy character tou you guys? If so, i rather see the blandness of nowadays, At least it's realistic. I like realistic wrestling, without soul seeking supernatural creatures, like the old taker. I mean, don't get me wrong, i like Taker and his dead man gimmick...but we have to draw the line somewhere.

[lazorbeak]

But what do you do with the 75% of the roster that isn't ever going to be on the poster without the occasional silly gimmick? You end up with a roster of 20 ****y young heels and 20 wholesome, nice-guy babyfaces, and none of them get over because they're completely interchangeable.

[milamber]

Since the draft I've been enjoying Smackdown as much if not more than Raw. And the fact that they're keeping guys like Christian and Bryan strong means I have much more faith in the creative team.

[djthefunkchris]

But what do you do with the 75% of the roster that isn't ever going to be on the poster without the occasional silly gimmick? You end up with a roster of 20 ****y young heels and 20 wholesome, nice-guy babyfaces, and none of them get over because they're completely interchangeable.

I really don't remember (outside of the obvious/WCWera) a time period when any promotion had more then a handfull of truly unique people on it, with the rest just being extra's. Hmm... Maybe that's not coming out like I mean it.

Back in the early 80's, there was a handfull of people I cared about (Snuka, Piper, Flair etc.), and a few I knew other's cared about (Macho Man, Hogan, etc.). That's what made Wrestlemania so special, FIRST TIME under one roof several of my favorites (and everyone else's) had huge match's. I mean, there were the NWA supercards, but Wrestlemania, the way they presented it, felt like these were the biggest names in Wrestling. Never were on the same show though, not before anyways.

However, even then, there were like five maybe six people (after Wrestlemania) that I cared about. The rest just kind of merged together... good guys and bad guys. I'm talking about on one show.... Not all together (One promotion at a time).

EVEN if I liked half a dozen on their roster, I don't think I ever got to see them all on the same show.

So really, I don't see a huge change there. To me your statement is just a fact I never thought about, but has been the way since the 70's (when I started watching).

It's not hard to see why though, your either a fan and will watch just for the wrestling aspects, or your not and only watch for your favorites. Kind of like boxing.... or maybe even MMA. I might not like the guys in the ring, but I can appreciate a good match. IF I like them, it's a pluss. Same with wrestling (only that it's pretend fights). Kind of like any actual show though... You have your main stars, then you have the rest of the crew. Not everyone can be "the man".

[20LEgend]

Never noticed before but just started watching sackdown and is the referee usual this audible during (Christian vs. Mark Henry) He just keeps saying "now come on Mark" and "What do you say"

Edit: Wait I've just noticed what is is no commentary in my left ear, it is coming through the right headphone lol, that's pretty cool, I can here what the referee says without he right ear and I can watch the wrestling and hear the wrestler and the ref without Cole and Booker in my ear

Edit 2: It is sooooo much better w/o commentators!

[lazorbeak]

I really don't remember (outside of the obvious/WCWera) a time period when any promotion had more then a handfull of truly unique people on it, with the rest just being extra's. Hmm... Maybe that's not coming out like I mean it.

Back in the early 80's, there was a handfull of people I cared about (Snuka, Piper, Flair etc.), and a few I knew other's cared about (Macho Man, Hogan, etc.). That's what made Wrestlemania so special, FIRST TIME under one roof several of my favorites (and everyone else's) had huge match's. I mean, there were the NWA supercards, but Wrestlemania, the way they presented it, felt like these were the biggest names in Wrestling. Never were on the same show though, not before anyways.

However, even then, there were like five maybe six people (after Wrestlemania) that I cared about. The rest just kind of merged together... good guys and bad guys. I'm talking about on one show.... Not all together (One promotion at a time).

EVEN if I liked half a dozen on their roster, I don't think I ever got to see them all on the same show.

So really, I don't see a huge change there. To me your statement is just a fact I never thought about, but has been the way since the 70's (when I started watching).

It's not hard to see why though, your either a fan and will watch just for the wrestling aspects, or your not and only watch for your favorites. Kind of like boxing.... or maybe even MMA. I might not like the guys in the ring, but I can appreciate a good match. IF I like them, it's a pluss. Same with wrestling (only that it's pretend fights). Kind of like any actual show though... You have your main stars, then you have the rest of the crew. Not everyone can be "the man".

But everybody has favorites, even kids, even people who barely pay attention. And those favorites are often not based on any kind of wrestling skill. But how does somebody look at Primo Colon and say "he's my favorite wrestler"? I mean he's basically Hispanic Evan Bourne. They're completely interchangeable underdog high-flying babyfaces. And when you have a dozen guys that basically do the same shtick, how does one stand-out from another? In the Attitude era, midcarders who were never going to draw big money like D'Lo Brown, Al Snow, Val Venis, and others had characters that weren't duplicated by five more guys. And they all got over as a result.

Basically you completely misunderstood what I said. I'm not saying the problem is that there's only a limited number of "big name" guys or anything like that: I'm saying that the people who aren't big names are given less that makes them stand out and get over in their own right. I think it's great that Santino is so successful at doing what he does, but it's because he's the only guy doing those comedy babyface bits: if we had four more goofy babyfaces going on after him, all miming instruments in an invisible band, they'd all blend together and nobody would get over. And right now, these "extras" as you call them are really bland. I mean Koko B. Ware was somebody's favorite wrestler. He had a big silly gimmick and he lost all the time, so nobody was ever going to confuse him with a main eventer, but he was still over with the crowd. But Kofi Kingston has won the IC and US titles about 5 times each, but what's his character beyond "athletic guy who kicks people a lot"? Rob Van Dam did basically the same bit, but you knew more about his character then "he likes to kick people."

[Zeel1]

Ryder's been making a lot of tweets about how the next RAW's in Long Island, and it's gotten me kind of curious. I've been thinking a bit of a reemergence for him has been in the works for the last couple of weeks, starting it off in the LI would make sense...

[djthefunkchris]

But everybody has favorites, even kids, even people who barely pay attention. And those favorites are often not based on any kind of wrestling skill. But how does somebody look at Primo Colon and say "he's my favorite wrestler"? I mean he's basically Hispanic Evan Bourne. They're completely interchangeable underdog high-flying babyfaces. And when you have a dozen guys that basically do the same shtick, how does one stand-out from another? In the Attitude era, midcarders who were never going to draw big money like D'Lo Brown, Al Snow, Val Venis, and others had characters that weren't duplicated by five more guys. And they all got over as a result.

Basically you completely misunderstood what I said. I'm not saying the problem is that there's only a limited number of "big name" guys or anything like that: I'm saying that the people who aren't big names are given less that makes them stand out and get over in their own right. I think it's great that Santino is so successful at doing what he does, but it's because he's the only guy doing those comedy babyface bits: if we had four more goofy babyfaces going on after him, all miming instruments in an invisible band, they'd all blend together and nobody would get over. And right now, these "extras" as you call them are really bland. I mean Koko B. Ware was somebody's favorite wrestler. He had a big silly gimmick and he lost all the time, so nobody was ever going to confuse him with a main eventer, but he was still over with the crowd. But Kofi Kingston has won the IC and US titles about 5 times each, but what's his character beyond "athletic guy who kicks people a lot"? Rob Van Dam did basically the same bit, but you knew more about his character then "he likes to kick people."
I think I understand you, and I said outside of the WCW era (like before and after the attitude era... which is over, and only a very small piece of wrestling history in the grand scheme of things.

Even so, let's look at WWF's 2001 roster, and tell me you don't see alot of the same 'ol same 'ol even during that time..... and never thought Al Snow was very interesting, but I know other's have so that's just me.

Al Snow
Faarooq - WCW World Tag Team Champion
Bradshaw - WCW World Tag Team Champion
Big Boss Man - Out
"The One" Billy Gunn
Bull Buchanan
Chris Benoit - WWF Champion
Chris Jericho
Chyna
Crash Holly
Dean Malenko
Debra
D-Von Dudley
Bubba Ray Dudley
Eddy Guerrero
Edge
Christian
Essa Rios
Gangrel - Out
Goodfather
Hardcore Holly
Matt Hardy
Jeff Hardy
Haku
Ivory
Jacqueline
Jerry Lynn
Jim Ross - WWF Announcer
Taka Michinoku
Kane
K-Kwik
Kurt Angle - WWF Tag Team Champion
Lilian Garcia - Ring Announcer
Linda McMahon - CEO of WWFE
Lita
Mick Foley
Molly Holly
Paul Heyman - CEO of ECW
Perry Saturn
Raven
Rhyno
Rikishi
Scotty 2 Hotty
Shane McMahon - WCW Chairman
Shawn Michaels -(Visiting)
Spike Dudley
Stephanie McMahon - ECW Chairman, WWF Women Champion
Stone Cold Steve Austin - WWF Tag Team Champion
Steve Blackman
Steven Richards
Tajiri
Tazz
Terri Runnels
Test
The Big Show
The Rock - suspended
The Undertaker
Tori
Triple H- Out with an injuried
Trish Stratus
Val Venis
Vince McMahon - WWF Chairman
William Regal - Commissioner of the WWF
Albert
Justin Credible
X-Pac
R.J. - out


I think more then a few if given the same criticism back then, would fall into the same category, don't you? If not, why? I mean, there were some clean cut good guys, some not so clean cut good guys, some bad guys, some not so bad/bad guys, etc... Lots of similar character's although their gimmick might have been a little different, the same underneath.

Lots of future hall of famers (or already inducted Hall of Famers) on that list, and I believe their uniqueness (above the norm) is the reason as to why. But there was still alot of talent that didn't really get seen much, and some of them were wasted, etc.

EDIT: My point though, was that outside of the Rock and Wrestling (Hogan era) and the Attitude era, this seems normal to me. We can't have an era all the time, or it wouldn't really be an era, nor would it stand out, as it would be the "Standard". Comparing the company now, to a highlight in the companies history... at least to me is a little harsh. I would look at all the times they were around (which is more then 90% of their history), as well as other promotions, and compare it to that.... Attitude era stood out because it was different and had it's own shine. IF they tried that stuff now, they would probably lose money.

[lazorbeak]

I think I understand you, and I said outside of the WCW era (like before and after the attitude era... which is over, and only a very small piece of wrestling history in the grand scheme of things.

It's not looking like you do.

Even so, let's look at WWF's 2001 roster, and tell me you don't see alot of the same 'ol same 'ol even during that time..... and never thought Al Snow was very interesting, but I know other's have so that's just me.

Did you actually read what I said? The point isn't who your favorites are, the point is they have enough character that they're somebody's favorite.


I think more then a few if given the same criticism back then, would fall into the same category, don't you? If not, why? I mean, there were some clean cut good guys, some not so clean cut good guys, some bad guys, some not so bad/bad guys, etc... Lots of similar character's although their gimmick might have been a little different, the same underneath.

Lots of future hall of famers (or already inducted Hall of Famers) on that list, and I believe their uniqueness (above the norm) is the reason as to why. But there was still alot of talent that didn't really get seen much, and some of them were wasted, etc.

EDIT: My point though, was that outside of the Rock and Wrestling (Hogan era) and the Attitude era, this seems normal to me. We can't have an era all the time, or it wouldn't really be an era, nor would it stand out, as it would be the "Standard". Comparing the company now, to a highlight in the companies history... at least to me is a little harsh. I would look at all the times they were around (which is more then 90% of their history), as well as other promotions, and compare it to that.... Attitude era stood out because it was different and had it's own shine. IF they tried that stuff now, they would probably lose money.

Do you really not see the difference between the roster you posted and the WWE's current roster? Maybe I need to explain it using the specific roster you gave me (which is not even in the Attitude era).

Farooq and Bradshaw- a midcard babyface act featuring two old guys who weren't in great shape, but the APA gimmick was over. Bradshaw also improved tremendously as a talker by having a real character that wasn't "Stan Henson-ish cowboy." Pretty much directly led into his run as a major heel.

Steven Richards- too small to be taken seriously as a serious threat, he still managed to generate real heat with RTC. Is there a midcard heel in WWE right now with a look as bad as his that gets the sort of heat he got? Rico was the last guy I can think of who did.

Gangrel- his gimmick was that he thought he was a vampire. That's a stupid gimmick, right? But he had a really cool entrance and the crowd loved it, even if in the ring he was a middling worker with a gut.

The point is, these guys who were clearly never going to draw huge money were still given identifiable gimmicks and characters that the crowds could either get behind or rally against. I mean think about how much work they put into getting the Tajiri character over, from his interactions with William Regal to his run with Torrie Wilson as his manager: and this was a guy who was about 5'9" and worked a super junior type style; obviously he was never getting out of the midcard. Compare that to Yoshi Tatsu, who is capable of putting on great matches on Superstars, but have they made any effort to explain who this guy is? Does he have a character? Does he have any friends or enemies? Why should anybody be a Yoshi Tatsu fan?

And as far as the "if they tried that, they would probably lose money" statement you stick on at the end. Huh? How on earth is building an undercard with recognizable characters that people might care about going to cost WWE money? I'm not saying they need outrageously dumb gimmicks, but at they obviously need more variety in their roster if they want to build guys up. You can have a "****y young heel" gimmick get over only if there's not six more on the roster. I mean CM Punk and the Miz have been so successful because they have built up unique characters based on their real lives that crowds respond to, and they don't look exactly like the last six guys that debuted out of OVW/DSW/FCW/whatever.

To see the whole thing in the micro, look at 2001's women division vs. now. You had Ivory as a prudish "anti-diva," Lita as the "alternative" chick who didn't look like a traditional diva but got super over, Trish re-built from her run as Vince's love interest into an underdog babyface, etc. Today, you've got about a half dozen heels whose gimmick is they're conceited and good-looking (the Bellas, Maryse, Lay-Cool until just recently, Alicia Fox), and babyfaces whose gimmick is... they're good-looking and nice (Kelly X2, Gail Kim, Eve). Who gets over in that set-up? It's not surprising that Beth Phoenix gets a bigger reaction than the rest of the division even when she's floating around in character limbo, just because she's unique and the crowd knows who she is, or why Kong got major reactions despite very few people wanting to see her in a magazine. Also, Steph wasn't women's champion during this time: it was vacant after Chyna left.

But my point is and has been that the current roster has way too many guys who have no real gimmick: why should I root for anybody not in the top 25% of the card? It's why people on the net get excited about Zach Ryder and a gimmick that is about as far from the main event as it gets: because he's one of the rare guys that has enough character that he stands out. I think they've improved, with guys like Khali providing a fun little midcard distraction, and Wade Barrett, even in his diminished role still has more of a character than most, but there's still plenty of guys who don't really have a character at all.

[djthefunkchris]

We're stumbling over each other's statements, and not really in dissagreement with each other.

For the record: I get that WWE doesn't have the character progression they had during the attitude era.... I get that, I really do. I agree with you.

I said it's not fair to compare that era with now though. At least not to me. Same with the Hogan (80's) era. These are two distinctly high points, and not the norm of the company. I then explained that back before and in between these era's, it was much like it is now.

For example, before PPV's were very popular, the time would be split between the biggest names... Ussually maybe four people per hour. The rest was just match filler's. Was a unique thing to actually get to see the one's talking wrestle.

An example would be today.... You might have Cena do a promo, a couple other top stars and a few from Smackdown as "what happened last week on smackdown" etc.... the rest is filled with filler match's, with only one or two meant to really generate any interest.

And I dissagree that it's that big, although I agree you have a point (just don't think your point is that big). Plenty have been pushed, and tried to get people's interest.

Alberto Del Rio, Punk, Rhodes, Bryan, The Hart Foundation, Otunga, Ziggler, McIntyre, Bourne, Jackson... Even Heath Slater was focused on.... Swagger, the Uso's somewhat, Mason Ryan, Tarver somewhat, R-Truth again, Sheamus, Sin Cara, Skip Sheffield was a bit entertaining, Dibiase, of course you can't forget about The Miz, Wade Barrett or Vladimir Kozlov.... and I hate to use him, but Zack Ryder is unique (although I don't personally get his appeal).

It's like you take two or three, and say "Hey, 20 and 20!" These people are all different, but if you want to generalize like you are, you could do that with any roster from any era.... Vampire/deadman, Angry man/Backwoodsman/Man with an Axe, man with a Hammer, Man with a wooden stick saying "USA!", etc. I just don't remember any of them being so much distinctive, outside of their looks, from each other. You do. So we will just dissagree.

[Linsolv]

Yeah, times have changed. However, using the old style of Cena promoing and then mostly filler, given their talent pool could easily put on matches like...

Borne v. Ziggler (Mid, UMid)
Riley (W/Miz, until recently; that'd be how you'd mix Miz in) v. Danielson (Mid, Mid)
DiBiase v. Riley (now that's he's face)

etc. There's a lot of potential quality there. If you start ignoring disposition, you have a TON of room for storyline potential without touching the main event (one that I really wanted to put above is DiBiase v R-Truth, with DiBiase looking down on Truth both for his race and for his rapper gimmick—Racism is srs bidness—but now Truth is a Conspiracy Theorist instead of a rapper of the people). Then you could occasionally have a squash match (Miz v. Masters, to prove that Miz v. Danielson or Miz v. Del Rio, Miz could beat their ultimate submission) or a no-contest between superstars (Miz v. Cena, with Riley attacking Miz after 5 minutes and getting match cancelled, to use a current idea)

[ewanite]

Miz isn't a unique character. He plays Chris Jericho 90% of the time.

We don't know how much say the superstar themselves has in the development of their character, but I'd imagine they make quite a lot of character decisions themselves seeing as they are always being told to 'grab the brass ring' and make themselves superstars.

With that in mind a lot of them will want to be taken seriously rather than be gimmicky and will have grown up on the Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart era. End result? A thousand ****y heels and cool faces with very small variations in character and a decidedly realistic edge. The attitude era people on the other hand grew up on Randy Savage, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan and so they drew inspiration from larger than life caricatures. When going larger than life you get a lot more opportunities for unique personalities to shine through.

The workers being churned out now will draw their inspiration from guys like The Rock, Steve Austin and Undertaker and so we'll get another round of more over the top superstars (which are indeed cropping up all over the indy scene now). The generation after that will draw inspiration from Orton and Cena and we'll get another batch of serious guys. It's a cycle.

[Zeel1]

Miz isn't a unique character. He plays Chris Jericho 90% of the time.

I think he was referring to specific promos where he brings up how everyone doubted him and thought he was just a joke that'd never amount to anything and how he's proven everyone wrong. I do think that's added to his character, because it gave me the feeling that that's precisely WHY he acts like such a massive *******, like a kid who becomes a bully after years of being bullied themselves. It's kind of nice to have believable motivations for a heel.

By the way, according to Ryder's twitter, he'll be wrestling Kofi Kingston tonight. Don't really like his chances, but I'm staying hopeful... :p

Really liking the feel of this final Tough Enough episode, by the way.

Ha, they're actually showing a Superstars match during this. I find that amusing.

[Zeel1]

DeMott and Skidmarks interaction was rather amusing... loved the pop Jeremiah got, sorta figured he'd be the most popular.

[Eisen-verse]

I don't see it with Andy. Yea, he's a big guy but he looks like a fumbling one at that...

Cheers.

E-V

[Zeel1]

Man, I gotta say, I'm kind of surprised at this, Luke was pretty much the favorite from the start and Andy didn't even really stand out much until near the end...

[Eisen-verse]

Way to further sell the stunner, Andy.... (Sarcasm)

[Zeel1]

I like how the crowd was chanting along with Miz' "Really?"'s. Another good reaction for A-Ry.

[ECW 2.0]

I'm glad Andy won he reminds me of a more talented Kevin Nash

[Eisen-verse]

I'm glad Andy won he reminds me of a more talented Kevin Nash

I'm sorry to question but REALLY?

Nash may not have been a well-versed technition BUT he is, far and away, better than Andy.

On the mic... Nash wins.
Power as a big man... Nash wins.
Athleticism... Andy; I guess.
Look... Nash wins.

Honestly, from what I've seen of Andy, he seems like a botch-fest waiting to happen. Not to mention, I squirm whenever he opens his mouth... sadly.

Cheers.

E-V

[The Celt]

If you're not watching RAW I feel bad for ya son, I got 99 options but RAW is the only one.

[nucleardonkey]

I'm glad Andy won he reminds me of a more talented Kevin Nash

I gotta agree with you...although it should also be said that I've seen lamp-posts that were more talented than Kevin Nash. The only problem I have with Andy is the same problem I'd have with anyone who won except for Matt Cross and that's aside from Tough Enough I've never heard of any of them and you can't really know how they are in a real full match in front of a WWE-size audience.


That being said I really hope either later tonight or next week at the earliest they let Andy get his heat back and gain some strength back after that burial immediately after his victory.

[BloodyKnuckles]

Watching Raw, and wondering if the TUF Winner will be sent to FCW to improve? I didn't watch the show so I don't really know how good he is.

[Zeel1]

"If that happens, my account will have been hacked!" Ahhhhahaha... ;)

[Eisen-verse]

Cena drinking a beer on TV....

Think about the Children!!!

[The Celt]

Cena drinking a beer on TV....

Think about the Children!!!

http://www.joeydevilla.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/think_of_the_children.jpg

[supershot]

I actually found it more halarious seeing riley drinking beers. I was thinking thats why he tried to sneak out right away haha.

[djthefunkchris]

Miz isn't a unique character. He plays Chris Jericho 90% of the time.

We don't know how much say the superstar themselves has in the development of their character, but I'd imagine they make quite a lot of character decisions themselves seeing as they are always being told to 'grab the brass ring' and make themselves superstars.

With that in mind a lot of them will want to be taken seriously rather than be gimmicky and will have grown up on the Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart era. End result? A thousand ****y heels and cool faces with very small variations in character and a decidedly realistic edge. The attitude era people on the other hand grew up on Randy Savage, Ric Flair and Hulk Hogan and so they drew inspiration from larger than life caricatures. When going larger than life you get a lot more opportunities for unique personalities to shine through.

The workers being churned out now will draw their inspiration from guys like The Rock, Steve Austin and Undertaker and so we'll get another round of more over the top superstars (which are indeed cropping up all over the indy scene now). The generation after that will draw inspiration from Orton and Cena and we'll get another batch of serious guys. It's a cycle.

Time will tell, and I hope your right, but that's as good of a comparison as I've ever heard. I like the "Cycle" idea, because it helps explain a bit of what I was talking about, from a different angle. When I think of Hulkamania and the start of Wrestlemania, or even the Attitude era, I think "Special Times". I was a bigger fan in the old days then I was during the Attitude era, and the attitude era come off really childlike to me (Pranks and such all the time). Like everyone was living out childhood fantasies or something. However, I would never deny the work of The Rock, Austin, or Jericho for that matter during this time frame. So I label it as the same thing I grew up with, just for a different generation. I figure your right, sooner or later there is going to be another cycle like that, and it's going to be for the /next Generation.

Two special moments in Wrestling shouldn't define the whole bussiness though, at least not in my opinion. Plenty of time periods when wrestling was doing good bussiness (relatively speaking), that they weren't in a "Special" era. It's more of a preference really, and of course the larger then life character's will win out eventually. With all the Superhero movies trying to come out, you would think they would seek this out but I have a feeling it's going to be a good half dozen or so more years before anything remarkable happens. Who knows, maybe this Cena vs. Rock does something by the time they get to it, for a more rounded good.

Just weird, watching The Rock on Tough Enough, I couldn't help but to think that the wrestler's (at least the ones that were present) looked at him as something special that can never be duplicated, so they will never try.

[ampulator]

I like the Miz. Is Miz completely original? Probably not. He is a like a cross between Chris Jericho and the Rock. I can see that. But if he isn't all that original, at least he does the role well.

[djthefunkchris]

I like the Miz. Is Miz completely original? Probably not. He is a like a cross between Chris Jericho and the Rock. I can see that. But if he isn't all that original, at least he does the role well.

Chris Jericho's heel performance before this time around was more the normal cheating heel type.... cookie cutter cowardly heel, I guess you could say. His Heel run this time was inspired from the guy in "No Country for Old Men", and could be the same influence The Miz got as well. A guy who might be wrong, might sound evil, but truly believes he is right. Calm, cool, and believable.

Kind of hard to copy someone that started doing the schtick after you (at least in that way).

[TakerNGN74]

Glad to see that Andy won at the beginning of the series I wanted Luke to win but that soon changed after I saw how arrogant he was especially that one week that he was in the bottom three.

[ampulator]

Chris Jericho's heel performance before this time around was more the normal cheating heel type.... cookie cutter cowardly heel, I guess you could say. His Heel run this time was inspired from the guy in "No Country for Old Men", and could be the same influence The Miz got as well. A guy who might be wrong, might sound evil, but truly believes he is right. Calm, cool, and believable.

Kind of hard to copy someone that started doing the schtick after you (at least in that way).
I should clarify. Although the Miz isn't a carbon copy, he does take a lot of influences from both the Rorck and Chris Jericho. I think Jericho tweeted as much (though I doubt he's angry at Miz, considering they had dinner together).

[BurningHamster]

Watching Tough Enough finale now, this has to be one of the most weirdly put together episodes of anything I have ever seen. Even by reality TV standards this feels incredibly awkward.

Also I didn't realize this whole series that Luke has no shoulders at all. None. Yet he keeps on smiling. Constantly.

[milamber]

Really enjoyed Tough Enough and I'm happy Andy won. He grabbed his chance to shine and I'm sure he'll work hard to polish his skills. And he got slapped by his new boss :) Unleash the Silent Rage!

That was the funniest Raw opening segment this year. And the Truth/Obama skit was funny.

Zack Ryder wrestling with Ziggler putting him over! Proof that the creative team actually do take note of what the fans think.

Mysterio v Punk was the match of the night for me. Both guys were on fire in the ring.

The tag match was good. I wonder if we'll see Austin v Miz in the near future.

[Candyman]

R Truth continues to impress me. It's amazing what a character change can do when they get it right. He's gone from a guy that I wouldn't have noticed if he was released to one of the highlights of Raw.

Mixed feelings on Andy winning Tough Enough. It's kind of odd considering Luke was so much better every single week throughout the competition. But Andy certainly has potential, and had the crowd behind him, which I'm guessing is the biggest reason he won. It would've been harder for Austin to pick the heel. It's just a shame Martin got hurt, I think he easily would have won...him and Jeremiah have the most potential, IMO. And where was Rima?

Bunch of thoughts on the end of Raw. First of all, just like Wrestlemania, how the F does the GM have the authority to overrule the referee? It makes no sense. I'm hoping they'll address that and give King and Cena/Riley their rightful wins eventually. And is it just me, or is it weird that the GM would name Austin (or anybody else) the special guest GM? And I couldn't stop laughing at Austin giving Riley beer...Riley even tried to avoid it by getting out of the ring before the beerfest started. Somebody probably should've given Austin the heads up about that beforehand.

[djthefunkchris]

R Truth continues to impress me. It's amazing what a character change can do when they get it right. He's gone from a guy that I wouldn't have noticed if he was released to one of the highlights of Raw.

This seems to be the way they are going with Main Heels right now... Truth fits it perfectly.

Bassically, as I said about Jericho's, he might be in the wrong, he might even be looking at things in an evil way. However, they use just enough of the "Truth" to make them believable characters.

I'm waiting for something unique from the Babyface's, to make just as big of an impact. We have Miz, Punk, and now Truth... "You might hate me, but look at what I have done. I have destroyed "X" and beat "Y" three times now. I'm a big player in this game now!" No matter if they cheated everytime or not, it's true, and it brings a sense of realistic truth's to their rantings.

[bigtplaystew]

I think they shoudl just all be heels. That's basically what happened in the Attitude era. All the top faces were kinda heels, people just cheered them.

I see why John Cena has his purpose. I try not to be the cynical wrestling fan and think all the faces are lame. I think there are certain guys who would have to stay face. But i think 99% of the roster should get a little more heeled up. It makes the characters much more entertaining and fun to watch.

[jjohns44]

Michael Cole, Shut Up!!!!

[Linsolv]

I might be the only one, but I love Michael Cole. He's got SO MUCH HEAT. I think he's right around the Miz as possibly the top heel in the company.

[Jaysin]

I might be the only one, but I love Michael Cole. He's got SO MUCH HEAT. I think he's right around the Miz as possibly the top heel in the company.

An announcer should not be the top heel in the company...

I have to change the channel when he's the focus. I hated him before he was a heel and all it did was make him unbearable to me. I don't changing the channel is the reaction they want. I didn't even want to see Lawler kick the crap out of him, I just wanted Cole to be forgotten about.

[BurningHamster]

I might be the only one, but I love Michael Cole. He's got SO MUCH HEAT. I think he's right around the Miz as possibly the top heel in the company.

Cole's heat makes me long for the heady days of X-Pac heat. There is no irony in this statement at all, Cole has reached a level of "I just wish this guy wasn't here and never existed" that is pretty hard to fathom. WWE seems to really specialize in this kind of heat these days. These are the heels that don't really provoke a reaction like anger or jealousy so much as just force you into a quiet resignation that wrestling will probably never be what you want it to be again so you might as well just go do something else. Kind of like what reality shows did to TV, Over-reliance on CGI and 3d is doing to film or autotune has done to music.

[JackKnifed72]

Cole's heat makes me long for the heady days of X-Pac heat. There is no irony in this statement at all, Cole has reached a level of "I just wish this guy wasn't here and never existed" that is pretty hard to fathom. WWE seems to really specialize in this kind of heat these days. These are the heels that don't really provoke a reaction like anger or jealousy so much as just force you into a quiet resignation that wrestling will probably never be what you want it to be again so you might as well just go do something else. Kind of like what reality shows did to TV, Over-reliance on CGI and 3d is doing to film or autotune has done to music.



What he said....Seriously couldn't agree more here. I've watched more old wrestling clips via YouTube over the last year than I have actually watched WW_ or TNA

[bigtplaystew]

Thing is, a good heel is supposed to make you wanna see him get beaten. Look at Miz. Alex Riley is prettymuch a zero as a face but he's getting over becaue of how much people hate the Miz.

Micheal Cole just makes me wanna change the channel. It's uncomfortable when he interupts King's jokes and runs down the Diva matches.

[Gabbo]

An announcer should not be the top heel in the company...


That's not his fault that's the WWEs. He's been given a job to do and he's done it well.

On the subject of Cole, by and large it is the same heat as people used to get. At least before the Attitude Era when people were cool heels and everyone got a mixture of boos and cheers.

The thing is wrestling has changed. 30+ years ago when kayfabe existed and was adhered too, people believed in wrestling. People may have really disliked Cole but that only meant they wanted to see him get a (what they thought was legit) beatdown.

Vince may have started killing kayfabe but even up to 1980's WWF, when it was aimed at kids they felt the same, (as the kids of today probably feel) Cole is a bad, bad man and they want to see him hurt for real.

Just because you're a smark and aren't overwhelmed by his good looks and cool persona doesn't mean the problem lies with him. It lies with you and the online wrestling fan's attitude towards heels. How people can call him a bad heel and then love someone like Zach Ryder is beyond me. I have no problem with Ryder but he gets little reaction as a heel on tv and is beloved by the fans on his youtube channel.

What sort of heel varies from no reaction to a positive reaction?

[jsnypade33]

Cole's heat makes me long for the heady days of X-Pac heat. There is no irony in this statement at all, Cole has reached a level of "I just wish this guy wasn't here and never existed" that is pretty hard to fathom. WWE seems to really specialize in this kind of heat these days. These are the heels that don't really provoke a reaction like anger or jealousy so much as just force you into a quiet resignation that wrestling will probably never be what you want it to be again so you might as well just go do something else. Kind of like what reality shows did to TV, Over-reliance on CGI and 3d is doing to film or autotune has done to music.

Thank you "These days stuff is so "REAL" it seems fake"

[Blackman]

I'm still ok with Cole being focused on, but then again, I rarely watch the E. I can see people are tired of him, especially since there's no wrestling involved at all in the feud with King.

[juggaloninjalee]

King and Cole had their match. I just don't see where this feud can possibly go. It is something people I think want to forget.

[Jaysin]

That's not his fault that's the WWEs. He's been given a job to do and he's done it well.

On the subject of Cole, by and large it is the same heat as people used to get. At least before the Attitude Era when people were cool heels and everyone got a mixture of boos and cheers.

The thing is wrestling has changed. 30+ years ago when kayfabe existed and was adhered too, people believed in wrestling. People may have really disliked Cole but that only meant they wanted to see him get a (what they thought was legit) beatdown.

Vince may have started killing kayfabe but even up to 1980's WWF, when it was aimed at kids they felt the same, (as the kids of today probably feel) Cole is a bad, bad man and they want to see him hurt for real.

Just because you're a smark and aren't overwhelmed by his good looks and cool persona doesn't mean the problem lies with him. It lies with you and the online wrestling fan's attitude towards heels. How people can call him a bad heel and then love someone like Zach Ryder is beyond me. I have no problem with Ryder but he gets little reaction as a heel on tv and is beloved by the fans on his youtube channel.

What sort of heel varies from no reaction to a positive reaction?

Cole was a terrible announcer that was already annoying before he was given so much air time. I don't like someone based on if they're a heel or face or whatever, I like them if they entertain me in some capacity. Cole does the opposite of entertain me, he makes me change the channel because he and the storyline are just irritating and boring. I like Ryder because he entertains me. I like William Regal because he's entertaining. I dislike Cole because he's NOT entertaining. I hated JBL as a wrestler, but I still wanted to see him get his ass kicked.

I like who I like and dislike who I dislike. It has nothing to do with other fan's perceptions of wrestlers and personalities.

[ECW 2.0]

So Tough Enough was scripted? Andy was under a develpment deal before the show

[crownsy]

So Tough Enough was scripted? Andy was under a develpment deal before the show


I doubt it was scripted in the sense that they picked a winner before the show, but a bunch of those talents had or have been given deals since the show ended.

I mean, Think about it, are you going to NOT sign anyone in the top 6ish to a developmental deal if your the WWE? that would be horrable buisness.

you just put these kids on a national show drawing what, 3 million viewers a week? and you just going to turn a kid you gave that kind of free publicity to loose to go work for TNA/ the indys to make a buck off your work?

Luke, for instance, is more well known than most of TNA's mid card. your not turning that guy loose for free.

of course not, your going to give them a developmental deal to see if you can turn them into a WWE talent as well. Im quite sure Luke has a deal, and i know martin, Jeremiah and alica fox's sister got one. Heck she's already wrestling in FCW

[Linsolv]

I don't mind Cole. I'm a little bored by him. However, when I go looking for wrestling opinions online and I find a smark declaring that Cole went too far in mocking King's mother, then that's called heel heat and the only reason that smark hated it is because they can't see the forest for the trees.

When NXT season 1 started, I wished that Cole would go away. I wished Lawler would go away. I like Booker T on commentary, but otherwise I hated their commentary team then and I hate it now. Except that now, when Cole stands up and says "Ladies and gentlemen, can I have your attention please: I've just received an email from the RAW general manager," the audience gets SUPER PISSED. That's called heat and it's good. There's a whole world out there beyond the tip of your nose, and beyond your preferences.

I hate flippy wrestling. I hate PWG, CHIKARA, EVOLVE, and Sin Cara. Give me IWA Mid-South any day of the week. But PWG has a big fan base out there, so I don't go around declaring it's worthless; I just don't buy their DVDs. So you don't like Cole. Well, he's gets more boos than Punk, or Sheamus, or Rhodes or Ziggler.

He's sitting on heat on par with The Miz, maybe Alberto del Rio—I really can't remember the reactions del Rio gets because I like him. He's got literally no heat with me. If he turned face right now I'd only be displeased because they'd give him a Mexican Cena persona. That's the difference between del Rio and Cole: one I like, and the other I hate. Spoiler warning: One of them isn't doing their job as a heel.

[Self]

I don't think Tough Enough was 'scripted' as in completely predetermined, but I hear Andy & Christiana were already on the FCW roster and were sent to the show by WWE with the intention of winning it. Similarly, Rima was the TV production company's hope to win.

Just because you're a smark and aren't overwhelmed by his good looks and cool persona doesn't mean the problem lies with him. It lies with you and the online wrestling fan's attitude towards heels. How people can call him a bad heel and then love someone like Zach Ryder is beyond me. I have no problem with Ryder but he gets little reaction as a heel on tv and is beloved by the fans on his youtube channel.

I love Zack Ryder, but I strongly believe he should be a wacky comedy babyface... Like Santino could have been if WWE hadn't turned his comedy so insipid and twee.

[Hashasheen]

Snip

While that's all well and good, there's something else that matter when discussing Cole's heel status: It goes nowhere. Who benefits? What babyface is going to look good beating up a non-competitor? Lawler, Hart, the Divas & Austin get away with it because let's face it, none of them are taken seriously by the fans as anything more than side-acts.

Look at the Miz. Heel heat, and he's using it to get over his former protege Alex Riley. Wade Barrett, getting over Ezekiel Jackson. Cody Rhodes getting over Daniel Bryan (hopefully).

Add to that the fact that Cole just plain ****s all over the product he's supposed to be commentating on (Bryan, the Divas, anyone not named the Miz). I actually liked him back on Smackdown with JBL & Tazz. Now? Now he's just a massive heel with nowhere to go, who's actual commentating is decreasing in quality.

[Fantabulous]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

[Hashasheen]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

The IWC is like the polar opposite of the Borg. A fractured, dissident, dis-unified and self-loathing mass of existence.

[Linsolv]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

Smark is simply a term I used to describe someone who discusses the theory of wrestling, especially outside of the context of wrestling-as-business. If someone's sitting there telling me about X-Pac heat, or talking about how good a match was, they're probably a smark. It's not the only indicator, of course. Like I said, I often disagree with the general population I've seen around the IWC on what "good" wrestling is.

IWC seems to like a lot of PWG, Dragon Gate, etc. I like OVW, King's Road, and sometimes even WWE style. But I am perfectly willing to admit that Big Show is, realistically, a big draw. So's Rey Mysterio. But I don't like them. I don't like their look. I don't like their wrestling. Does that make me a smark? Yeah. I'm making judgements based on the product, not on the business.

So I wasn't using Smark as a term for "person who disagrees with me," I was using it as a term for "person who should be able to put themselves above the emotional roller-coaster the show is trying to present."

So, for me, as a SMARK, when Cole came out and gave his "interview" where he asked how it was looking up into heaven and knowing he'd let his mother down, I felt bad but I recognized it as an action designed to get my goat, and my goat was not gotten as a result.

While that's all well and good, there's something else that matter when discussing Cole's heel status: It goes nowhere. Who benefits? What babyface is going to look good beating up a non-competitor? Lawler, Hart, the Divas & Austin get away with it because let's face it, none of them are taken seriously by the fans as anything more than side-acts.

Aye... now there's the rub. However, I can't blame Cole for doing his job. If Jack Swagger can't get over as a heel, can Michael Cole be blamed for that? I mean, I guess in theory DB not getting over, Cole can be blamed for, because he's burying Bryan on commentary. But Cole doesn't sit there insulting Swagger.

[Hashasheen]

Aye... now there's the rub. However, I can't blame Cole for doing his job. If Jack Swagger can't get over as a heel, can Michael Cole be blamed for that? I mean, I guess in theory DB not getting over, Cole can be blamed for, because he's burying Bryan on commentary. But Cole doesn't sit there insulting Swagger.

.... Didn't Swagger get buried because he was getting too big a head during his title run?

[Linsolv]

I could only think of two upper-midcarders who I felt had hit the ceiling in a sense: Ziggler and Swagger. And Ziggler seemed to be on an upswing. (Not that there aren't more, but I just didn't want to open my list because I was lazy at the time and am lazy now)

[Gabbo]

When did 'smark' become the catch-all term for insulting someone who thinks differently to you?

We're all smarks on this forum. Whether you interpret that negatively or not. No-one here is a mark in the truest sense of the word.

While that's all well and good, there's something else that matter when discussing Cole's heel status: It goes nowhere. Who benefits?

If you want to be clever about it then this is supposedly why Vince phased out managers in the first place because the heat was on them and when a wrestler left his manager he went back to being nothing.

In theory, we, or the marks, benefit. Too many people are preoccupied with the next big star, the next big feud, who should be main eventing, what feuds should happen. Even when these guys reach the peak people are searching for the next person to get there and no-one seems to appreciate things happening just for the now. Everything doesn't have to be geared towards putting someone over and someone else getting a rub at all times. It's all about interesting TV, which is something people often slate the WWE for lacking right now.

Even if that is the case who's to say Cole won't get bigger and bigger and more relevant in the title picture in some way or just use his massive heat to put someone over further down the line?

Add to that the fact that Cole just plain ****s all over the product he's supposed to be commentating on (Bryan, the Divas, anyone not named the Miz). I actually liked him back on Smackdown with JBL & Tazz. Now? Now he's just a massive heel with nowhere to go, who's actual commentating is decreasing in quality.

Why is that different to Heenan or Lawler ****ting over all the faces during their run as heel commentator? Faces are supposed to be what you build the company on and all Heenan and Lawler did was go on about how stupid and weak and cowardly and whatnot they were. Plus, his ****ting on of Daniel Bryan is arguably what got him over.

[Hashasheen]

Why is that different to Heenan or Lawler ****ting over all the faces during their run as heel commentator? Faces are supposed to be what you build the company on and all Heenan and Lawler did was go on about how stupid and weak and cowardly and whatnot they were. Plus, his ****ting on of Daniel Bryan is arguably what got him over.

Heenan didn't and Lawler didn't do it like Cole did. Case in point was Cornette's arrival to the WWF, he got massive heel heat just because of how well Heenan was praising him and then built himself without Heenan's heat. He got the same amount of pop for guys his clients opposed, who then built on it. As for Lawler, he always had Jim Ross as a counter-part propping up the faces and pointing out why Lawler sucked (in Kayfabe). We don't have that now. Vince seems content to let Cole run his mouth on most wrestlers except the top guys like Orton and Cena, and none of the other guys (except maybe Striker) have the natural ease at going back and forth over it.

Not to mention you know, none of them tell a story or sell the moves as well as they used to.

[MrOnu]

And you'd have pages and pages of raging discussions on the internet about the dumbness of a face Michael Cole now that he's been so over the top as heel. Wrestling fans are never happy on the internet, that's my rule #1. ;)

[ShaunGBD]

Wrestling fans are never happy on the internet, that's my rule #1. ;)

I will take it one step farther, MOST hardcore wrestling fans are NEVER happy.

[Candyman]

So Tough Enough was scripted? Andy was under a develpment deal before the show

So was Christina, and I'm sure everybody on the show was a candidate for a development deal and would have gotten deals if not for the show. You heard the crowd, Andy got by far the biggest reaction of all the contestants. (only one close was Jeremiah, and everybody saw how dangerously green he was) It really makes no sense for them to rig it...the best contestant on the show is going to be the most successful regardless of whether or not they win, so why not let the best win, so the winner is the most successful? It's like people who claim American Idol is rigged...it makes no sense.

I doubt it was scripted in the sense that they picked a winner before the show, but a bunch of those talents had or have been given deals since the show ended.

I mean, Think about it, are you going to NOT sign anyone in the top 6ish to a developmental deal if your the WWE? that would be horrable buisness.

you just put these kids on a national show drawing what, 3 million viewers a week? and you just going to turn a kid you gave that kind of free publicity to loose to go work for TNA/ the indys to make a buck off your work?

Luke, for instance, is more well known than most of TNA's mid card. your not turning that guy loose for free.

of course not, your going to give them a developmental deal to see if you can turn them into a WWE talent as well. Im quite sure Luke has a deal, and i know martin, Jeremiah and alica fox's sister got one. Heck she's already wrestling in FCW

If I had to put money on whether or not each contestant would get signed to a development deal, Michael is the ONLY one I would bet on not getting signed eventually. I expect the other 13 to be in FCW, if they're not already, and it wouldn't really surprise me if Michael was too. They put them on the show because they saw something in them, and I don't think a couple weeks in the Tough Enough house would convince them they were wrong.

[Gabbo]

Heenan didn't and Lawler didn't do it like Cole did. Case in point was Cornette's arrival to the WWF, he got massive heel heat just because of how well Heenan was praising him and then built himself without Heenan's heat. He got the same amount of pop for guys his clients opposed, who then built on it. As for Lawler, he always had Jim Ross as a counter-part propping up the faces and pointing out why Lawler sucked (in Kayfabe). We don't have that now. Vince seems content to let Cole run his mouth on most wrestlers except the top guys like Orton and Cena, and none of the other guys (except maybe Striker) have the natural ease at going back and forth over it.

Not to mention you know, none of them tell a story or sell the moves as well as they used to.


I was pointing out faces, heel commentators praising heels is nothing new and is really just what Cole does anyway. As they all attack faces alongside it.

The second two points about Lawler having a face counterpart and wrestlers not being able to tell a story are again not Cole's fault in anyway.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Too many people are preoccupied with the next big star, the next big feud, who should be main eventing, what feuds should happen. Even when these guys reach the peak people are searching for the next person to get there and no-one seems to appreciate things happening just for the now. Everything doesn't have to be geared towards putting someone over and someone else getting a rub at all times. It's all about interesting TV, which is something people often slate the WWE for lacking right now.

Even if that is the case who's to say Cole won't get bigger and bigger and more relevant in the title picture in some way or just use his massive heat to put someone over further down the line?

That's a point I can agree on with. Everything can have an use at a certain degree. Such as during that Rock birthday party special, Rock did his thing, entertaining the crowd with his mic skills.. then they had to get someone to spar with him so they could kick off on a good note - couldn't be a wrestler so that people wouldn't endlessly speculate further, Cole was the perfect guinea pig.

Alex Riley's face turn, the generic way of going at it would be Miz ranting at how he's done everything for A-Ri, but that'd be too straightforward, that's where Cole comes in.

A lot of smarks tend to believe what they find annoying is by all means wrong, and those lines need to be separated a bit. Granted I did want to see Cole out of my TV but if it came down to himself, I'd say he's doing a splendid job with what he's given. Redeeming himself for all those years of chuffy commentating, he got the idea of putting it all out in the open.

[Fantabulous]

The difference with Michael Cole going full blown heel and a heel colour guy like Lawler or Heenan is that Cole is the lead announcer. He is the voice of the promotion, meant to get the wrestlers and issues over with the audience. He is meant to tell the stories that get people into the product, so they'll want to either keep watching or buy the PPV. And that's a little difficult to do when you're burying every babyface and acting in such an obnoxious manner that you're actually turning people off.

[Linsolv]

Once again, I'd agree that's a problem but it's not COLE's problem. He's dull and ineffective as a face, he shouldn't be the lead commentator. He's highly effective as a heel.

[jjohns44]

I was only quoting Vince from the episode. I thought it was pretty funny.

I've been seeing A LOT of commercials on other channels promoting RAW and the Celebrity Host schtick, but they really haven't done the host thing in a long time. Not that I really miss it or anything, eventually it got to a point where the host made a small backstage cameo and that was it, just weird to see it promoting the celebrity host thing when it doesn't really happen anymore.

[djthefunkchris]

Going to side with Gabbo and TBP on the Cole issue (and everyone else making valid points). Cole isn't a problem, he's and asset right now. He makes you like anyone he doesn't, or at least someone will like who he doesn't simply because he doesn't like them.

I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again. Many will dissagree because they can't give Cole any credit for anything, but: To me, Cole is being Attitude Era McMahan. He isn't going to do all the physical parts that McMahan did, but he definately has the whole Power thing down.

I haven't been able to watch in a couple of episodes though, and haven't google'd or anything lately. The last time I seen Cole, he was no longer in that "Safety Rig" behind glass or whatever. He was sitting there along with Lawler and halfway agreeing with Lawler on a few things. Some of which had to do with The Miz.

Anyways, Cole helped The Miz out like no other in my opinion. Miz could have got there without it, but I think Cole made it happen faster then it should have.

I'd absolutely love to see Cole get halfway decent in the ring, and actually do some physical parts on his own as well... but I don't see him doing anything more then Jimmy Hart in the ring. Just not worth it at his age, I don't think.

Anyways, yeah... I never really liked Cole and I still feel that way. However, I can't ignore the crowd reaction everytime he does or says anything. Same way I felt about Vickie Guerrero. That's not the wrong kind of heat either, it is the absolute BEST type of heat a heel can have.

What can he do with it? As I said, bassically anyone he likes he can transfer heat to, and anyone he doesn't he can transfer cheers to. Anyone that takes a stand against him is going to be cheered, as long as they don't overdue it.... Meaning, if someone like Zack Ryder (Loose example of someone I don't understand why anyone thinks should be a star) were to start talking back at Cole, they could at the very least bump them up temporarily, into an Upper Midcard position, possibly even higher. Have Cole get one of the guys thought of to be Main Event material or Upper Mid to go after Zack, and people are going to cheer for Zack, and want Zack to win. IF someone like Zack could actually grab onto this effect, it could do wonder's for their carreer.

[BurningHamster]

Why is that different to Heenan or Lawler ****ting over all the faces during their run as heel commentator? Faces are supposed to be what you build the company on and all Heenan and Lawler did was go on about how stupid and weak and cowardly and whatnot they were. Plus, his ****ting on of Daniel Bryan is arguably what got him over.

Heenan and Lawler had talent and wit. If anyone tries to tell me Cole has the same then I just plain give up, there ain't no hope for you people. :p

[juggaloninjalee]

Going to side with Gabbo and TBP on the Cole issue (and everyone else making valid points). Cole isn't a problem, he's and asset right now. He makes you like anyone he doesn't, or at least someone will like who he doesn't simply because he doesn't like them.

I've said this before, and I'm going to say it again. Many will dissagree because they can't give Cole any credit for anything, but: To me, Cole is being Attitude Era McMahan. He isn't going to do all the physical parts that McMahan did, but he definately has the whole Power thing down.

I haven't been able to watch in a couple of episodes though, and haven't google'd or anything lately. The last time I seen Cole, he was no longer in that "Safety Rig" behind glass or whatever. He was sitting there along with Lawler and halfway agreeing with Lawler on a few things. Some of which had to do with The Miz.

Anyways, Cole helped The Miz out like no other in my opinion. Miz could have got there without it, but I think Cole made it happen faster then it should have.

I'd absolutely love to see Cole get halfway decent in the ring, and actually do some physical parts on his own as well... but I don't see him doing anything more then Jimmy Hart in the ring. Just not worth it at his age, I don't think.

Anyways, yeah... I never really liked Cole and I still feel that way. However, I can't ignore the crowd reaction everytime he does or says anything. Same way I felt about Vickie Guerrero. That's not the wrong kind of heat either, it is the absolute BEST type of heat a heel can have.

What can he do with it? As I said, bassically anyone he likes he can transfer heat to, and anyone he doesn't he can transfer cheers to. Anyone that takes a stand against him is going to be cheered, as long as they don't overdue it.... Meaning, if someone like Zack Ryder (Loose example of someone I don't understand why anyone thinks should be a star) were to start talking back at Cole, they could at the very least bump them up temporarily, into an Upper Midcard position, possibly even higher. Have Cole get one of the guys thought of to be Main Event material or Upper Mid to go after Zack, and people are going to cheer for Zack, and want Zack to win. IF someone like Zack could actually grab onto this effect, it could do wonder's for their carreer.

I agree with you here. Part of what slingshot Austins career was the fact that Vince was an ******* and Austin did what everyone wanted... he beat the hell out of him.

Not saying that someone who does this will be as big as Austin or even close to it but they will get some recognition.

I don't think Cole is on the same level as McMahon though in the 90s either. Vickie Guerrero is a good heel manager right now too.

[Fantabulous]

Heenan and Lawler had talent and wit. If anyone tries to tell me Cole has the same then I just plain give up, there ain't no hope for you people. :p

And, as heels, they exaggerated greatly or outright lied. They made it impossible for you take anything they said seriously because of it. Cole, meanwhile, goes right for the jugular and exposes every flaw and weakness that the babyface has. Whoever the babyface in the ring is, Cole hammers home every weakness, every flaw and everything else that could be wrong with them. He completely undermines their credibility because everything he's saying is true and there's no way to discount it. That's not what a good heel does. A good heel doesn't cut the legs off the babyface they're going against because if they win, it means nothing because they beat a nobody, and if they lose, they look bad because they lost to a nobody and it results in nobody getting over.

It's also bad when it's coming from they guy who is meant sell the viewers at home on the babyfaces so they can get behind them and tune in to see them on TV or pay to see them on PPV or at the house shows. Who pays to see a babyface who has had every flaw and weakness not only exposed before them but drilled home for two hours by the lead announcer? It's stupid.

Also, the Cole = McMahon analogy is laughable because it's a completely different dynamic. What made it resonate with people was not simply the heel McMahon screwing around Austin and Austin fighting back. It was the ******* boss, something just about everybody watching can relate to, acting like an ******* toward his employee and the employee doing what everyone else wishes they could do in real life and turning around and beating the hell out of his boss. The obnoxious lead announcer being a dick for two hours isn't close to the same thing. Nobody relates to that and it has a short shelf life even when done right before coming long in the tooth. Not that it should be done at all for the previously mentioned reasons, but that too is a point that will probably go over a lot of heads.

[Prophet]

I think the biggest problem with heel Cole now is, there's no reason for it. Heenan, King, McMahon, Heyman, Cornette ... they all had agendas, and until Cole has an outright reason, it lacks sense. This is what I mean.

Heenan and Cornette were both managers who either had current clients, or option to scout new clients. Heenan would tear into Hogan, because he had reason to, Hogan had the belt, Hogan would duck the Family, it made sense.

When Heyman was heel color guy, he was aligned with the Invasion, he was self aggrandizing ECW, he was justified in tearing down the faces of WWF/E. And McMahon was trying to mold the company into what he felt it should look like. Which turned Austin and others (including the dreaded Union) into protagonists. Still, clear cut agenda.

As for King, when he began commentating, he was still active. He feuded with Bret Hart, he outwitted people in Rumble matches by hiding under the ring. He made the most sense to be heelish as a commentator. This also holds true during Perfect's run. All of them have reason.

Cole doesn't have that reason. He's heel because he's friends with the Miz? He's friends with Cena too, something they touched on during the heel run of Michael Cole, which was forgotten the next week. Which brings me to another point. Cole is wildly inconsistent. One week, he's horrified by a beating that took place in the ring, and the next week, the victim deserved worse. One week, Miz went too far when scolding Alex Riley, and it was good for A-Ri to stand up for himself, the next week, Cole's demanding an apology from Riley. It almost seems like he loses perspective of which role he's supposed to play.

My point is, until they lay out a clear reason for Cole to act like an obnoxious jerk, some self interest that ties it all together, it will always come off as the loudest kid in the class trying to shout down the teacher for no other reason than he has a mic in his hand.

[juggaloninjalee]

And, as heels, they exaggerated greatly or outright lied. They made it impossible for you take anything they said seriously because of it. Cole, meanwhile, goes right for the jugular and exposes every flaw and weakness that the babyface has. Whoever the babyface in the ring is, Cole hammers home every weakness, every flaw and everything else that could be wrong with them. He completely undermines their credibility because everything he's saying is true and there's no way to discount it. That's not what a good heel does. A good heel doesn't cut the legs off the babyface they're going against because if they win, it means nothing because they beat a nobody, and if they lose, they look bad because they lost to a nobody and it results in nobody getting over.

It's also bad when it's coming from they guy who is meant sell the viewers at home on the babyfaces so they can get behind them and tune in to see them on TV or pay to see them on PPV or at the house shows. Who pays to see a babyface who has had every flaw and weakness not only exposed before them but drilled home for two hours by the lead announcer? It's stupid.

Also, the Cole = McMahon analogy is laughable because it's a completely different dynamic. What made it resonate with people was not simply the heel McMahon screwing around Austin and Austin fighting back. It was the ******* boss, something just about everybody watching can relate to, acting like an ******* toward his employee and the employee doing what everyone else wishes they could do in real life and turning around and beating the hell out of his boss. The obnoxious lead announcer being a dick for two hours isn't close to the same thing. Nobody relates to that and it has a short shelf life even when done right before coming long in the tooth. Not that it should be done at all for the previously mentioned reasons, but that too is a point that will probably go over a lot of heads.

I don't hate Cole as much as most but I do hate it when he kills all credibility a face has. I do think he gets a reaction and that he is only doing what Vince wants him to do. Personally I would change his gimmick slightly and probably just make him a manager.

To me Cole isn't Bobby Heenan or JR or any of those but he is unique and does get reactions. That is what WWE wants and has always wanted.

I can relate to Cole being an employee that annoys everyone and tries to point out everyones flaw and discredit them to the world. Haven't any of you worked with someone who bad mouths everyones work except for their own and their friends? Thats how I relate Cole to real life.

[Linsolv]

My point is, until they lay out a clear reason for Cole to act like an obnoxious jerk, some self interest that ties it all together, it will always come off as the loudest kid in the class trying to shout down the teacher for no other reason than he has a mic in his hand.

And people like that don't irritate you? Because I know that they irritated everyone else I've ever met.

[Prophet]

Cole has always irritated me. Even when he was the straight laced heir apparent. While I was trying to illustrate what I feel the biggest flaw with the Cole character now, I've personally never been a fan and would much rather they gave the reigns to Josh Matthews.

[ShaunGBD]

I love the Heel Cole, but i hated the face Cole. 2 face guys calling the action sucks but with 1 face and 1 heel, is good. I also think Cole wouldn't be bad in a stable with a bunch of heels.

[Zeel1]

What can he do with it? As I said, bassically anyone he likes he can transfer heat to, and anyone he doesn't he can transfer cheers to. Anyone that takes a stand against him is going to be cheered, as long as they don't overdue it.... Meaning, if someone like Zack Ryder (Loose example of someone I don't understand why anyone thinks should be a star) were to start talking back at Cole, they could at the very least bump them up temporarily, into an Upper Midcard position, possibly even higher. Have Cole get one of the guys thought of to be Main Event material or Upper Mid to go after Zack, and people are going to cheer for Zack, and want Zack to win. IF someone like Zack could actually grab onto this effect, it could do wonder's for their carreer.

Ryder/Cole seems like it could be pretty fun, actually...

I think the biggest problem with heel Cole now is, there's no reason for it. Heenan, King, McMahon, Heyman, Cornette ... they all had agendas, and until Cole has an outright reason, it lacks sense. This is what I mean.

Heenan and Cornette were both managers who either had current clients, or option to scout new clients. Heenan would tear into Hogan, because he had reason to, Hogan had the belt, Hogan would duck the Family, it made sense.

When Heyman was heel color guy, he was aligned with the Invasion, he was self aggrandizing ECW, he was justified in tearing down the faces of WWF/E. And McMahon was trying to mold the company into what he felt it should look like. Which turned Austin and others (including the dreaded Union) into protagonists. Still, clear cut agenda.

As for King, when he began commentating, he was still active. He feuded with Bret Hart, he outwitted people in Rumble matches by hiding under the ring. He made the most sense to be heelish as a commentator. This also holds true during Perfect's run. All of them have reason.

Cole doesn't have that reason. He's heel because he's friends with the Miz? He's friends with Cena too, something they touched on during the heel run of Michael Cole, which was forgotten the next week. Which brings me to another point. Cole is wildly inconsistent. One week, he's horrified by a beating that took place in the ring, and the next week, the victim deserved worse. One week, Miz went too far when scolding Alex Riley, and it was good for A-Ri to stand up for himself, the next week, Cole's demanding an apology from Riley. It almost seems like he loses perspective of which role he's supposed to play.

My point is, until they lay out a clear reason for Cole to act like an obnoxious jerk, some self interest that ties it all together, it will always come off as the loudest kid in the class trying to shout down the teacher for no other reason than he has a mic in his hand.

It's true enough that he doesn't really have an agenda or a goal, but I wouldn't say he has no reason to be doing this. The feeling I got was that he was simply tired of taking all of the fan's ****. I mean, as many here have recently said, they always hated Cole. For pretty much the entire time he's been on WWE TV, people have hated him for various reasons, and it seemed to get worse and worse every year. I read his character arc as basically being that for that decade or so, he was just trying to pander to the fans, talking up the people that they liked, talking down the people they hated, just trying to get them to like him, and for so long they just didn't accept him. It only makes sense that eventually he'd just be all, "You know what, **** you guys too." Now he's just venting all that pent-up anger and enjoying every minute of it. Basically he's doing the exact opposite of what he used to do, talking up people like Miz and Del Rio, hating on guys like Mysterio, and doing pretty much whatever he can to troll the fans. It makes total sense to me...

[BloodyKnuckles]

While I haven't watched much wrestling lately, what I have seen I have enjoyed of Michael Cole. Unlike most, I actually didn't hate him as a face but he is shining in his role as a heel. I love how he's the Miz' number one fan and marks out for him, I also think how he insults Daniel Bryan and refers to him as a nerd is awesome. Bryan is a guy who is always going to struggle connecting with WWE audiences and I believe Cole's dislike of him only helps him get over with the fans.

I disagree completely that Cole doesn't serve a role by doing what he's doing, a heel announcer imo has always helped get babyfaces more connection with fans by giving them more reason to remember them. I believe he helps put over both the Miz and Daniel Bryan from what I've seen, and he's also pretty funny. (I watched the 2011 Rumble the other day, and he had me cracking up several times during the match. "I respect Bryan, I just think he's a nerd and he probably never had a girlfriend")

That's just my two cents on the issue though, good debate and I can understand the issues that some have with Michael Cole even if I don't agree with them myself.

[BurningHamster]

I like Roddy Piper

[Prophet]

It's true enough that he doesn't really have an agenda or a goal, but I wouldn't say he has no reason to be doing this. The feeling I got was that he was simply tired of taking all of the fan's ****. I mean, as many here have recently said, they always hated Cole. For pretty much the entire time he's been on WWE TV, people have hated him for various reasons, and it seemed to get worse and worse every year. I read his character arc as basically being that for that decade or so, he was just trying to pander to the fans, talking up the people that they liked, talking down the people they hated, just trying to get them to like him, and for so long they just didn't accept him. It only makes sense that eventually he'd just be all, "You know what, **** you guys too." Now he's just venting all that pent-up anger and enjoying every minute of it. Basically he's doing the exact opposite of what he used to do, talking up people like Miz and Del Rio, hating on guys like Mysterio, and doing pretty much whatever he can to troll the fans. It makes total sense to me...

I may not have made my meaning of reason clear. I understand the story arc, and actually agree with it, in that sense. Like I said, I've never been a fan, and with everyone chanting JR's name everytime he got the chance to lead, it was an inevitability that he'd go off the deep end, as it were. I don't dispute that.

By reason, what I meant was, that eventually all that bottled heat gets transferred. McMahon to Austin, King to Bret Hart, Heenan to Flair, etc. Cole passed his to King, as a way to get Lawler his WM match. And then passed it to Swagger when Swagger got fed up and walked. But they were small outlets ... King's WM moment is over, and isn't remembered fondly, and Swagger's still low man on the totem pole, playing a heel role when he walked out on a heel role. In both instances, they've fizzled. It happens, and opportunity is still there, but now there's no real reason.

Either Cole moves out from the booth, and becomes a part/full time manager, who gains from the constant backlashing that Cole receives every week, or Cole starts a new feud with someone. Either way, he needs a full outlet for all that accumulated hatred he's bottling, because like him or hate him, Michael Cole is not in a role right now that's conducive to his being one of the biggest heels in the company.

It doesn't seem like there's an endgame planned for all this, and he's just an annoying voice filling up four hours of television, when that same focus could be used to make someone like Swagger a legitimate contender again. Or better yet, he could build someone from the ground up. Tyler Reks for example, has all but disappeared. He's got a good look (in my opinion), solid skill, but he's not built for mic work. Unless it's a four minute promo of him seething and spitting. You give him Cole, Reks becomes hated, Cole builds him up with purpose, and in 4 months, you have a major contender for Kofi.

While I haven't watched much wrestling lately, what I have seen I have enjoyed of Michael Cole. Unlike most, I actually didn't hate him as a face but he is shining in his role as a heel. I love how he's the Miz' number one fan and marks out for him, I also think how he insults Daniel Bryan and refers to him as a nerd is awesome. Bryan is a guy who is always going to struggle connecting with WWE audiences and I believe Cole's dislike of him only helps him get over with the fans.

I disagree completely that Cole doesn't serve a role by doing what he's doing, a heel announcer imo has always helped get babyfaces more connection with fans by giving them more reason to remember them. I believe he helps put over both the Miz and Daniel Bryan from what I've seen, and he's also pretty funny. (I watched the 2011 Rumble the other day, and he had me cracking up several times during the match. "I respect Bryan, I just think he's a nerd and he probably never had a girlfriend")

That's just my two cents on the issue though, good debate and I can understand the issues that some have with Michael Cole even if I don't agree with them myself.

Saw this post post, and wanted to add that while I don't completely disagree with this, I think it lacks an element. Bryan's a perfect example, actually. On NXT, when Cole ripped the "internet darling" for being a TV-less nerd, and Bryan responded, it was a boon. Bryan gained the crowd, but that interaction led to the transfer I mentioned earlier. Even Eve chasing Cole into the Cole Mine gave that confrontation. Cole kissing up to Ziggler on guest commentary even transfers a little, but in the larger scheme of things, without a focus, it's being a jerk just because.

And all of these points, which may come across confusing (for which I apologize), aren't an argument to stop heel Cole. I prefer the idea of Cole as a heel, he does seem more natural in this phase, I just wish they would utilize it better. I think announcer/manager Cole would be hugely beneficial, wherein he can rip all the fun loving babies he wants, and mobilize the fans against one main antagonist. Or maybe I simply long for the days of Bobby and Cornette, and the Mouth roaming ringside.

[MrOnu]

I like Roddy Piper

How dare you !

[ewanite]

Interestingly, the Cole segments were consistently the higher rated segments of the show through the King storyline. That's why they stretched the feud out so much.

[eayragt]

That's a point I can agree on with. Everything can have an use at a certain degree. Such as during that Rock birthday party special, Rock did his thing, entertaining the crowd with his mic skills.. then they had to get someone to spar with him so they could kick off on a good note - couldn't be a wrestler so that people wouldn't endlessly speculate further, Cole was the perfect guinea pig.

Alex Riley's face turn, the generic way of going at it would be Miz ranting at how he's done everything for A-Ri, but that'd be too straightforward, that's where Cole comes in.

A lot of smarks tend to believe what they find annoying is by all means wrong, and those lines need to be separated a bit. Granted I did want to see Cole out of my TV but if it came down to himself, I'd say he's doing a splendid job with what he's given. Redeeming himself for all those years of chuffy commentating, he got the idea of putting it all out in the open.

Exactly. Alex Riley got a huge face pop when he turned face, and he did this my attacking Cole, not The Miz. That segment elevated Riley before The Miz came out, and that is the purpose that Michael Cole serves. There may not be a huge number of examples where he has a positive effect, but you only need a few... and that was a huge one.

[critical-23]

Is anyone else seeing the Usos as being wasted? They are friggin' talented!!

[Teh_Showtime]

This is the first SD in months.that I have not read the spoilers, and Im not regretting it.

Smackdown really gets it. This may be some of the best TV since Punk/Jeff in 2009

[milamber]

Smackdown was really good this week. I enjoyed every match and angle, which is rare these days with all the usual filler.

[b0shey]

My god AJ is so Beautiful and Sexy. :D

[BloodyKnuckles]

I watched Smackdown yesterday and I'm glad I did, that was a great show. I think the Orton/Christian feud is looking excellent, and the undercard matches were all pretty good. (Including the diva's match!!!)

I'm slowly getting back into wrestling and finding that it's not quite as bad as I believed it had gotten. (Although the quick title changes are very annoying.)

[Teh_Showtime]

Sheamus is going to be a huge babyface by the end of this year. He can win clean and has charisma, if he beats down Christian he would be a great face.

[Nathers7]

Seems pretty obvious that Christian is winning the title (which is great), what would be the point in all of the buildup in having him lose 3 times in a row clean to Randy Orton. WWE tend to mess up their best storylines pretty quickly though.

Smackdown at the minute is just miles better than Raw, you get the feeling that Raw just don't know what they're doing (throwing Del Rio into a feud with Kane and Big Show, a constant re run of Mysterio-Punk, always having Cena coming out on top to end the show). The only positives being Alex Riley and the R-Truth character. Where Smackdown has Christian-Orton-Sheamus which has been booked perfectly so far, they've made Christian and Sheamus look strong as heels while Orton continues as the main man. Obviously the Corre is a bit of a mess but you've got Rhodes/DiBiase vs. Sin Cara/Bryan which is fresh and they actually have a likeable diva in AJ Lee.

[Moe Hunter]

What would be the point of all that Nexus build up just to have Punk lose to Orton three times in a row? Oh, wait. That already happened. Good luck, Christian.

[Nathers7]

What would be the point of all that Nexus build up just to have Punk lose to Orton three times in a row? Oh, wait. That already happened. Good luck, Christian.

Loool, Nexus had died after Cena and Orton buried it before Punk had even become involved. There was nothing Punk was going to be able to do to carry 4 lackeys under a group name that had already been messed up. And what build up? They had a good run in the Rumble and then every single one of them got eliminated by Cena, how is that buildup? Christian has been at the forefront of Smackdown for the past 2 months.

[BloodyKnuckles]

I am enjoying the Orton v. Christian feud, and I like Christian.. but I absolutely HATE short World Title runs which the 'E have had so many of lately it's depressing. I'm rooting for them to stick with Orton on top for at least a couple of months, especially since his unstable babyface stuff intrigues me.

[Linsolv]

Smackdown at the minute is just miles better than Raw, you get the feeling that Raw just don't know what they're doing (throwing Del Rio into a feud with Kane and Big Show, a constant re run of Mysterio-Punk, always having Cena coming out on top to end the show). The only positives being Alex Riley and the R-Truth character. Where Smackdown has Christian-Orton-Sheamus which has been booked perfectly so far, they've made Christian and Sheamus look strong as heels while Orton continues as the main man. Obviously the Corre is a bit of a mess but you've got Rhodes/DiBiase vs. Sin Cara/Bryan which is fresh and they actually have a likeable diva in AJ Lee.

Finally got around to watching SD for this week. It isn't too bad, but I do have a few MINOR complaints:

1) Get your Sin Cara out of my Daniel Bryan. I like DB because I like technical. Introducing a flyer actually introduces a thing I will actively not watch.
2) I don't really like where they're taking Tamina. I dunno. Whatever, it's their call. Unsure how I felt about that bit about "LayCool want their gimmick back." Breaking the fourth wall seems inappropriate for WWE.
3) Honestly, Sheamus has looked strong, but not as a heel. He's been pretty reasonable: hasn't cheated, tried to play everything straight... he's more like a [self-assured] face than anything else.

[Nathers7]

I get the breaking kayfabe complaint, not sure what they were doing there to be honest. The thing is Sin Cara is a world class technician in his own right (If you watch his stuff from CMLL), WWE highlights the high flying stuff because it get's people excited and is succeeding in getting Sin Cara over. Sheamus has never openly cheated to win as far as I remember, Summerslam maybe? That's about it though. He reminds me of Undertaker from 02, a badass heel that can win clean. I think they will look to turn him face during this storyline as he has definitely come across as a face the past few weeks, he showed no complaint in getting the win this week thanks to Christian however.

[Linsolv]

But I mean, he even went to Christian and asked for a clean match last week. That's not heelish. It's almost HUMBLE.

(Admittedly, if he was totally a heel for like forever and I'm just seeing a sudden shift, I've only been watching Smackdown for 2 weeks now. I normally can't really pay attention to 3-4 hours of wrestling a week, and I knew the characters on RAW better. But then I thought "but let's watch both anyways I got time.")

[Nathers7]

Looks like they're planting the seeds for a face turn. Smackdown has Orton and then there's a big gap to Sin Cara, Bryan and Zeke on the face side. They need another legit face and Sheamus would probably work well in the role.

Does anyone here think R-Truth could win the WWE title in the next few months? I had a debate with someone about this on another forum, interested to see what you guys think.

[ShaunGBD]

Does anyone here think R-Truth could win the WWE title in the next few months? I had a debate with someone about this on another forum, interested to see what you guys think.

No, they are only building him up to feud with Cena and Cena will beat him.

[Tha Black Phenom]

No, they are only building him up to feud with Cena and Cena will beat him.

This is what it seems like, but things/perceptions can always change... if Truth gets hot enough for the creative team, they might consider a transitional reign or some sort.

[masterded]

This is what it seems like, but things/perceptions can always change... if Truth gets hot enough for the creative team, they might consider a transitional reign or some sort.

The problem I have with that is a transition to who? If we still had Miz as a champion I could see giving the title to an upper face to pass the title to ADR, but who would an upper heel be passing the title to?

[Hashasheen]

The problem I have with that is a transition to who? If we still had Miz as a champion I could see giving the title to an upper face to pass the title to ADR, but who would an upper heel be passing the title to?
John Morrison?

[masterded]

John Morrison?

Good answer. An injured Morrison returns to seek vengeance on the man who took him out of action. It also sets up the upper face camp for ADR. I just wasn't thinking. Though I still don’t see it happening.

[Teh_Showtime]

but remember that Cena still will have the title around January/Febuary if they still want him.to.defend against Rocky.

Truth/Morrison for the WWE title as a singles match on PPV is dobutful

[Mr.Macho]

Anyone seen the new Very Best of WCW Nitro? I wrote a review on it! :)
http://wrestlingsmacktalk.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/the-very-best-of-wcw-nitro-dvd-review-disc-1-2/

[angeldelayette]

Anyone seen the new Very Best of WCW Nitro? I wrote a review on it! :)
http://wrestlingsmacktalk.wordpress.com/2011/06/13/the-very-best-of-wcw-nitro-dvd-review-disc-1-2/

Good review! I have a birthday coming up in a few days and that is definitely one of the things on my birthday list. I was always a much bigger WCW fan than WWF/E, even right down to the end.

[LoNdOn]

A.J. Kirsch is fantastic........that is all.

[angeldelayette]

How can the Raw GM strip the Smackdown World Heavyweight Champion of his belt? Maybe just an empty threat?

[Apupunchau@optonline]

So tonight one of the security guys who held back Randy Orton was one of the guys from my school. Congratulations to him.

[Jaysin]

So tonight one of the security guys who held back Randy Orton was one of the guys from my school. Congratulations to him.

When Derrick Bateman first got signed by WWE, he was one of the cops that busted HHH when he went to Orton's house. Seeing him on TV was awesome because he's from around here.

[Teh_Showtime]

Shut your.mouth, they are.chanting his name. "RILEY, RILEY, RILEY"

[Prophet]

Wow, a three hour episode of Raw in the Nassau Coliseum, and no Zack Ryder? That makes me sad.

[Teh_Showtime]

me too. Even all the signs and we want Ryder chants.

He is decently over for a guy who has been on TV like once this year.

and nice to see CM pin Cena

[ampulator]

me too. Even all the signs and we want Ryder chants.

He is decently over for a guy who has been on TV like once this year.

and nice to see CM pin Cena
I don't care much for Ryder either way, but it's the power of the INTERNET. It's something I approve of him using.

[Teh_Showtime]

he is making.friends with the right people too. Lot of dirtsheets say he and Cena are really cool. He has a unique moveset that we dont see enough.

[ThriceP86]

me too. Even all the signs and we want Ryder chants.

He is decently over for a guy who has been on TV like once this year.

and nice to see CM pin Cena

Ditto. I did like Ryder (and I have been pushing him in my WWE game on TEW) but to be real, he doesn't really have a gimmick that can get over seriously. That's what kind of holds him back. IMO, he would fit more in the attitude era alongside Val Venis, D'Lo Brown, and other stable midcarders back then.

And yes! Finally! Punk getting a pin over Cena! And the crowd was amazing for that match. Tell me if Miz vs. Cena got that kind of reaction? Or if Truth vs Cena will get that reaction this Sunday? I just feel there's no better heel right now then CM Punk! Plus, his segment with Austin was awesome.

[milamber]

The problem I have with that is a transition to who?

Back to Cena. I can't see Cena staying Champ right through to Mania 2012 so perhaps he'll lose it once or twice only to regain it each time.

[lazorbeak]

Ditto. I did like Ryder (and I have been pushing him in my WWE game on TEW) but to be real, he doesn't really have a gimmick that can get over seriously. That's what kind of holds him back. IMO, he would fit more in the attitude era alongside Val Venis, D'Lo Brown, and other stable midcarders back then.


But considering Ryder isn't over now, a silly gimmick is a great way to get him noticed enough to put him in the IC/US title picture, or otherwise establish his name to people out there. A gimmick's job is just to make people care about somebody they don't know yet. Triple H had an incredibly silly gimmick, and when he was over enough that people knew who he was, he dropped all but the name and became himself. But you can't do that until the crowd know who you are.

[BloodyKnuckles]

I'm not one of the guys whose been following CM Punk since his indy days, I had heard of him and his gimmick but only saw him for the first time when he debuted on ECW. I have to say, him and Randy Orton are the two most interesting wrestlers in the WWE right now imo. Punk's segment with Austin was absolute gold, and his match with Cena was very good and like someone else said, had a red hot crowd.

This was a very fun episode of Raw, despite some short matches, and R-Truth is really doing well with his deranged character. "Little Jimmies" is pretty funny, although I have no idea what he means lol.

[Teh_Showtime]

Im in tne same boat. I diknt find Punk's older stuff until he was in OVW, but an Ausin/Punk feud writes itself if SCSA would do 1 more match.

[ShaunGBD]

I'm not one of the guys whose been following CM Punk since his indy days, I had heard of him and his gimmick but only saw him for the first time when he debuted on ECW. I have to say, him and Randy Orton are the two most interesting wrestlers in the WWE right now imo. Punk's segment with Austin was absolute gold, and his match with Cena was very good and like someone else said, had a red hot crowd.

This was a very fun episode of Raw, despite some short matches, and R-Truth is really doing well with his deranged character. "Little Jimmies" is pretty funny, although I have no idea what he means lol.

I stop reading their. Why do you say that? I for one (and I know A LOT of people agree with me) I used to love Orton, now he borning on the mic. I can't sit through an Orton promo. Raw is better without him.

[Nathers7]

This was a very fun episode of Raw, despite some short matches, and R-Truth is really doing well with his deranged character. "Little Jimmies" is pretty funny, although I have no idea what he means lol.

He uses the term "Jimmy" to describe a John Cena fan I believe. Little Jimmy refers to the kids who all seem to support Cena so he just calls them all "Little Jimmy" lol.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I just had to share this, absolutely hilarious.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/jaffers1990007/1-14.jpg

[ShaunGBD]

lololololol

[LoNdOn]

I just had to share this, absolutely hilarious.

http://i268.photobucket.com/albums/jj14/jaffers1990007/1-14.jpg

Well now, that's fantastic. Hey, if this gets enough internet coverage, I don't doubt that Cena would send her a personalised signed shirt.

[ShaunGBD]

Well now, that's fantastic. Hey, if this gets enough internet coverage, I don't doubt that Cena would send her a personalised signed shirt.

What I don't get is she had one. I know she probable wanna Cena's shirt but you have the same one. At the end of the day what's the big deal?

[TheEdgeOfReason]

The site I've been using to watch old Raws started using them surveys things :mad:

[BloodyKnuckles]

I stop reading their. Why do you say that? I for one (and I know A LOT of people agree with me) I used to love Orton, now he borning on the mic. I can't sit through an Orton promo. Raw is better without him.

His mentally unstable stuff just interests me, I agree that he's not crazy good on the microphone, but I really enjoy his in-ring stuff and his "Viper" character.

[milamber]

It was a fun Raw. CM Punk is awesome. The last few months have shown that if you put Cena and Orton against good opponents like Punk and Christian they can actually put on enjoyable (and believable) matches.

[ShaunGBD]

The site I've been using to watch old Raws started using them surveys things :mad:

like u mean in order to watch u gotta fill something out?

[ampulator]

It was a fun Raw. CM Punk is awesome. The last few months have shown that if you put Cena and Orton against good opponents like Punk and Christian they can actually put on enjoyable (and believable) matches.
But if you put them against each, it's going to be huge dud (if not a turd) of a match. Even the kids don't want Cena versus Orton.

[lazorbeak]

But if you put them against each, it's going to be huge dud (if not a turd) of a match. Even the kids don't want Cena versus Orton.

Good thing they're both working as babyfaces on opposite brands then. It's only slightly less of a problem than John Cena's lack of chemistry with Rene Dupree or other guys that don't work for that company at all.

[Candyman]

Does anyone here think R-Truth could win the WWE title in the next few months? I had a debate with someone about this on another forum, interested to see what you guys think.

Crazier things have happened. It wouldn't be the first time somebody was given a new character and took it all the way to the WWE title. Look at JBL, nobody would've thought Bradshaw was a future World champion when he was part of the APA. Not only was he a champion, he held it for 9 months and was quite effective as champion.

How can the Raw GM strip the Smackdown World Heavyweight Champion of his belt? Maybe just an empty threat?

It was also quite odd how, at the end of the show, the GM's e-mail to Austin talked about how Austin did in his absence, even though he had sent the e-mail to Randy Orton. The only thing I can think of is that Randy's concussion is legitimate and that segment had to be rewritten at the last second.

Still doesn't explain how the GM can overturn a referee's decision, though.

Well now, that's fantastic. Hey, if this gets enough internet coverage, I don't doubt that Cena would send her a personalised signed shirt.

That was the greatest series of pics I've ever seen in my life. And I agree, if Cena sees them, he will definitely try to contact her and more than make it up to her.

But if you put them against each, it's going to be huge dud (if not a turd) of a match. Even the kids don't want Cena versus Orton.

Eh, people don't want to see it because they've fought so much, not because the quality (or lack thereof) of the matches. Their I Quit and Iron Man matches, among others, are some of the WWE's best over the last 5 years.

Good thing they're both working as babyfaces on opposite brands then. It's only slightly less of a problem than John Cena's lack of chemistry with Rene Dupree or other guys that don't work for that company at all.

I lol'ed. It's funny because it's true.

[eayragt]

But if you put them against each, it's going to be huge dud (if not a turd) of a match. Even the kids don't want Cena versus Orton.

I knida disagree. Feud them, point out it's been almost been two years since they were having one on one matches for the title (I might be wrong, but I think Bragging Rights October 2009 was the last time... although they had been facing one another for months previously). Both are massive draws. The PPV would get a great buy rate.

And then the match would suck.

So yes, it would suck, but WWE aint just about wrestling and people would want to see it.

I'm just trying to work out how Punk can take the title off Cena before his match with Rocky. Cena and Punk have had a wierd little feud this year which has always been in the background and never been the focus (it was most in focus at the beginning of the year, but the big PPV matches were the multi-man Rumble and Elimination Chamber). I really think that towards the end of the year they could have a massive, proper feud to move the title across (as there's no need for Cena to have it at Mania).

The main problem? Punk's an easy 45 minutes in the Rumble, and WWE are lacking people who can easily pull a shift like that. So if he doesn't have the title then, it's a switch at Elimination Chamber. Which I hate, because it gets so obvious (like when 'Taker lost the title so Shawn could have his rematch).

Over thinking again, I know.

[Zeel1]

Very solid SmackDown! yesterday, I thought.

I'm not sure if that false three count in the six-man tag was planned or not, leaning on it being an accident right now because they didn't really follow up on it. You'd figure DiBiase and Rhodes'd be complaining about it later in the show... wonder if they'll work it into a storyline if it was unintentional.

Although now that I think about it, this was SD!, they could've just reshot it if the finish was screwed up...

Gotta say, I was a bit surprised at the outcome of Sheamus/Xian. Before the World Heavyweight Title match was announced as being 1-on-1, I really thought it was leading to a triple threat match at Capitol Punishment. The storyline focus was on Orton/Christian, but it seemed like they were booking it to where Sheamus would have a very strong case for getting into the match, what with him earning the right to a title shot only to be screwed out of it, then getting a win over the champion the next week.

Also, what with Orton's concussion, there's a chance he won't be able to wrestle Sunday, so I figured they'd make it a Triple Threat so that, in the event that that happens, they can easily justify a switch to Xian/Sheamus for the title. They wouldn't want a Heel/Heel World Heavyweight Title match, I know, but it'd be the only fix that'd make much sense... maybe they're confident that he'll make it.

I thought it'd be a Triple Threat at Capitol Punishment, Orton would retain by pinning Sheamus, leaving Christian to argue that he shouldn't be losing his shot just because Sheamus gets himself pinned, as well as arguing that it should never have been a Triple Threat in the first place. Christian gets one last one-on-one shot at Money In The Bank, maybe wins that and then Orton cashes in his rematch clause at SummerSlam for the big feud-ender.

'Sppose they could just as easily end it at Capitol Punishment and it'd work out, just thought it'd be cool if they could extend it to end at one of the bigger PPVs.

[Linsolv]

I knida disagree. Feud them, point out it's been almost been two years since they were having one on one matches for the title (I might be wrong, but I think Bragging Rights October 2009 was the last time... although they had been facing one another for months previously). Both are massive draws. The PPV would get a great buy rate.

The real problem with Orton/Cena is, how would you DO it, so that it's not the same as it's always been?

One idea I had, though it wouldn't work now because pretty much all of the elements a person would need to really do it are gone (Cena/Orton being on the same brand, Orton being heel). I'd have your usual month or two buildup that you might expect between two of the biggest draws in the WWE. Then have Orton declare that he hates Cena so much he never wants to see him again, let's have a "Loser Leaves Town" match. Then have Cena pick up the win, as usual, and take Orton off TV, off the house shows, etc. Just until the next PPV, where he busts in and wrecks Cena, possibly give Cena's match at that PPV a no-contest, and have Orton introduce himself as the newest member of SmackDown! and move him over to the other show as a heel.

OR, you could have him show up at the next PPV wearing a SmackDown! t-shirt, and save Cena from a chair shot or something behind the ref's back, and just leave. Then he shows up on SmackDown!, cuts a promo about how sorry he is and he had a month to really think about what he's done, and he got down on his knees and begged WWE management to take him back, and just put him on SmackDown! because he has professional differences with Cena that prevented him from being his real, mature self. Or something. I just kinda came up with that off the top of my head.

[lazorbeak]

The real problem with Orton/Cena is, how would you DO it, so that it's not the same as it's always been?


Heel Cena, babyface Orton, based on Cena being resentful that the fans support a psychotic spoiled brat when he goes to every make-a-wish and sacrifices himself non-stop only to get "Cena sucks" chants in parts of the country. I mean it's not super different from Batista/Cena a couple years ago, but there's more real life fodder for it, considering Cena does have a reputation for being a great company man and Orton had a negative reputation for a few years there.

[Linsolv]

But they're not going to TURN Cena heel. It's just not going to happen. I'm not saying they're right or wrong, but THEY THINK it will really hurt their bottom line to turn Cena.

EDIT: I mean, honestly, I'd love to see Cena do a quick turn and then pull back to face but not QUITE as superhuman as he is now. Lash out at the fans, have one quick feud as a heel, and then come out with an apology. But instead of everything coming off as super easy for him, I'd like to see him appear a bit more human.

[jjohns44]

saw some great Bryan Danielson stuff before WWE and man is that company crapping on him. Poor guy's only claim to fame may be just that run as the US Champ and Miz feud, but with those over he's suffering from floating around. His indie-wrestling style reminded me of Benoit: a ruthless technician who would stomp the crap out of the opponent and lock them in a submission move. Ah, my TEW game is going to have him as a bigger star.

[TDubRaiders]

I agree with Zeel on SD. I enjoyed the show and have actually enjoyed SD more than Raw lately. Not to say RAW is bad by any means I enjoy R-Truth an awful lot right now. Not sure if he's just another stepping stone for Super Cena to go through until Mania with the Rock but I enjoy Truth's character right now. I just think SD is top notch right now. Sheamus, Christian and Orton are doing great right now. I really like Cody Rhodes a lot and what he's doing minus the paper bag routine. Not a huge fan of Sin Cara but it's early in his career so we'll see. I enjoy SD though and can't wait to see what happens after Capital Punishment and see who shoots up the card and what new feuds go to Summerslam

[milamber]

Putting Orton and Sheamus on SD was a smart move, as well as capitalizing on Christian's pop they built up with Edge. At the moment I think it's a little stronger than Raw.

What do you guys think of Jinder Mahal? I quite like the guy -- very aggressive.

[1234]

Just an interesting story I found. Don't know whether it is well known or not, but I hadn't heard this before.

KURT ANGLE has revealed how The Undertaker once asked him to be the man to end his WrestleMania streak.

The legendary Deadman is famous for his unbeaten run at wrestling's biggest show.

But in an exclusive interview with our award-winning WrestleCast team, Kurt told us how it nearly ended at WrestleMania 22.

The Olympic Gold Medallist - in London to promote TNA's January 2012 UK Tour - revealed: "It was considered back in 2006.

"The person who wanted to do it was Undertaker himself. I was flattered, for him to go to Vince McMahon and pitch it.

"Undertaker at that point never had a five-star Wrestlemania moment match.

"He figured that the only one he could do it was me, at the time. Thank God a couple of years later he had Shawn Michaels, and it worked.

"But Undertaker really wanted to have that match, he asked Vince to push our match back from No Way Out to WrestleMania and, since I was champion they wanted me to keep the title, Undertaker was willing to take the loss.

"To me that meant a lot because Undertaker had a lot of respect for me — and I had more respect for him than he did for me."

In the end, Taker went on to have a forgettable match with Mark Henry, while Angle was part of a Triple Threat match with Randy Orton and Rey Mysterio — a bout which proved to be his last at Mania.

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/wrestling/3630830/Kurt-Angle-reveals-all-on-Sun-Wrestlings-WrestleCast.html#ixzz1PiZobKtf

[Nathers7]

Just an interesting story I found. Don't know whether it is well known or not, but I hadn't heard this before.

He has asked Edge and Orton to end the streak aswell but they both refused. Think it proves that Mark Calaway is even willing to give away the streak to put the younger guys over.

[Teh_Showtime]

I still hail Orton vs Taker the most underrated WM match.ever.

It would.have worked had Orton won, but I cant see Edge winning at WM 24 without.tons of interference.

[ShaunGBD]

He has asked Edge and Orton to end the streak aswell but they both refused. Think it proves that Mark Calaway is even willing to give away the streak to put the younger guys over.

Why didn't they wanna do it?

[Nathers7]

Why didn't they wanna do it?

Because they saw sense and realised that it shouldn't end.

[Fantabulous]

I can't say for certain because it was six years ago but I think there was a good chance Orton was going to get the nod over Undertaker in their Wrestlemania match. The problem was Orton had injured his shoulder shortly before the match and was going to take a long sabbatical after, so it wouldn't have made sense to give Orton this major, career-making win and then do nothing with it for three or four months.

The problem with ending The Streak is that the time and the person have to perfect. You can't end it just to end it or simply have the streak-breaker be someone you want to push. A lot of thought should go into ending The Streak and I don't think the time has been right for years and right now, I think The Streak has been so pushed and protected and it's over in such a way that it would do more harm than good to have anybody break it.

[Rone Rivendale]

I would have been perfectly happy if HBK had won either time, or HHH for that matter. They were both stars on the same level as Taker. Both future HOF'ers at the time of their matches.

Now, the only people left on Taker's level (or even close to) would be Cena and Orton. Cena winning would make ALOT of people pissed off. Orton on the other hand would still be able to benifit greatly from it and I don't think as many people would go ape-sh*t over it.

The only other thing you could do would be to take someone who isn't epic levels of greatness yet but someone you know you want to groom that way and have him go over Taker. Someone like Swagger or Ziggler. Do it early enough in their careers and they can take that rub and run with it for several years.

[Gabbo]

I don't think WrestleMania suffers for Undertaker winning every year, so to take the streak off him just to give to another established star is pointless. Triple H/HBK wouldn't gain from it and Undertaker would only lose.

But yeah, he supposedly offered to lose to Kane at WM20 but Kane declined.

I'm happy for Cena to take it though. Cena's got plenty of years in the tank and that combined with a heel turn could make his heel turn the biggest disposition change ever. They wouldn't have to do much, don't hint at it. It has to be sudden and massive. Just have Cena play his 'I'm gonna give it my best shot' routine and have him win. The boos would instantly reign down guaranteed and then have him cut a promo in the ring saying he gave his best for years and people loved him for it, he gave his best tonight and in the process proved he was the best - if the people can't handle that they can 'piss off.'

The only other true candidates in my opinion are Sheamus, Punk or Barrett.