The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Linsolv]

I'm gonna come right out and say it: I want to SEE Barrett v. Taker. I don't think Barrett should take the streak, but I'd really love to see him hit that Wasteland or whatever and have that smug look on his face while he taunts the crowd, only to have Taker get back up.

[Nathers7]

I'm gonna come right out and say it: I want to SEE Barrett v. Taker. I don't think Barrett should take the streak, but I'd really love to see him hit that Wasteland or whatever and have that smug look on his face while he taunts the crowd, only to have Taker get back up.

Barrett vs. Taker was supposed to happen this year at Mania (Barrett took him out at Survivor Series and they were going to run the Nexus storyline around him) but they called it off for a match with Triple H. The match with Triple H was the best match on the card but it was one of the worst buildups ever so by the time it reached Wrestlemania I didn't really care. I would have much preferred them going down the Barrett route.

[ampulator]

Is anyone really that surprised that the Undertaker would want to wrestle Kurt Angle at Wrestlemania? Their No Way Out match was a great performance. Everyone knew that Kurt Angle was one of their best in-ring talent at the time.

[Hive]

The streak is a draw for them at Wrestlemania. If they ever decide to end it, it should be in The Undertaker's last match ever. And that's a big if.

[sheepy]

I'm happy for Cena to take it though. Cena's got plenty of years in the tank and that combined with a heel turn could make his heel turn the biggest disposition change ever. They wouldn't have to do much, don't hint at it. It has to be sudden and massive. Just have Cena play his 'I'm gonna give it my best shot' routine and have him win. The boos would instantly reign down guaranteed and then have him cut a promo in the ring saying he gave his best for years and people loved him for it, he gave his best tonight and in the process proved he was the best - if the people can't handle that they can 'piss off.'


Agree, he's really the only one they should consider giving it too. There's not a lot of ways you could turn Cena heel and get 100% of the fanbase to hate him to the levels you'd need to make it work (though it would need to be correctly built up with Cena unable to beat Taker with this then culminating in a tainted victory as Cena refuses to be beaten).

The only problem is I don't seen any obvious choice for someone that could take over from Cena as the face of the promotion to go up against him at the following Wrestlemania. Whoever you'd pick would need to be jesus pushed as the next big thing before getting a Hogan / Goldberg esque win on the grandest stage.

[Remianen]

saw some great Bryan Danielson stuff before WWE and man is that company crapping on him. Poor guy's only claim to fame may be just that run as the US Champ and Miz feud, but with those over he's suffering from floating around. His indie-wrestling style reminded me of Benoit: a ruthless technician who would stomp the crap out of the opponent and lock them in a submission move. Ah, my TEW game is going to have him as a bigger star.

Now you see why the IWC collectively groaned when news of Danielson's signing became public. Also remember this was AFTER the Colt Cabana debacle and Colt is a FAR better talker than Danielson but Danielson is a FAR better in-ring worker. So the thinking went, if Colt washed out, what would happen to Danielson?

Even though Danielson was easily one of the most heavily booked indy workers, I still think his paychecks in WWE are bigger (and the schedule might not be too much worse than he's used to). So, he's making money and his time in WWE is going to ensure that he makes even more money after he's future endeavored (and he WILL be future endeavored, I believe, eventually). That level of exposure really can't be exaggerated, I'm told. "Former WWE Superstar" is money, count it and deposit it.

But yeah, I had a TEW game where he got cut on day one and I signed him to TNA. Paired with Tara with Mariko Yoshida managing them (and RAing their matches), they feuded with Desmond Wolfe (paired with Alyssa Flash, managed by Chelsea) and it was gold. When Tara retired, she became the manager and Sara del Rey stepped into the frame (and Mariko went to fulltime road agent) as Bryan's partner.

Because they saw sense and realised that it shouldn't end.

Yeah, I agree. I think the Streak should be a part of Taker's permanent legacy. Besides, if he retires with it intact, they have reason to dust him off and bring him back every so often, when some young turk gets too big for his britches.

But I also agree that Barrett-Taker could be highly entertaining. As mentioned, Barrett landing his finisher and then leaning over to taunt Taker only to be greeted with that goozle spot would be fun to watch. I'm hoping it happens soon since I don't think Taker has very much longer left.

[ShaunGBD]

No one posted during the PPV?

[MasterJ]

No one posted during the PPV?

Because it sucked that bad.

[Jaysin]

Because it sucked that bad.

I've heard a lot of good things about it.

[MasterJ]

I've heard a lot of good things about it.

I meant to put a JK at the end :o It was ok the Obama segment was just terrible

[ShaunGBD]

It wasn't bad, it wasn't great either, The Wade/Boomstick match sucked. Wade tried but the boomstick sucked. ADR and Big show sucked but R-Truth Promos were good. The rest was solid.

[TakerNGN74]

I thought that the pay per view was good but the fake obama segment was really stupid. The fact that they kept referring to him as President Obama really annoyed me because come on we are not that stupid and everybody knew that it wasn't him.

The best thing about this pay per view being over is now we don't have to watch those stupid dream sequence promos of that stupid press conference over and over again.

[Linsolv]

I'm getting mildly bored by the constant announcer references to R-Truth as "deranged." He's like ALL conspiracy theorists: he's got some good points and it's up to you whether or not you believe his conclusion. Fact: he's never had a WWE title shot (before last night). Fact: he was always really fan-friendly and it didn't help him get over into the main event.

Those two ideas are the basis behind his "deranged" theory, and they're both true. Now, of course, the conclusion he comes to ("ergo, if I treat the fans like crap, that'll be a step in the right direction") is a little silly, even though he was totally right and he got a title shot THE VERY SAME MONTH.

Also kinda getting sick of this weird "face turns heel by having the most sympathetic story ever" thing with Christian.

In other news, wwe.com is a horrible website and I don't think anyone should ever be forced to read it to figure out what happened at a pay-per-view.

[Nathers7]

Guess I was wrong about Christian lol, Orton and Cena still champions and there's no end in sight. I would've been angry if I had to pay $45 for that PPV, of course I'm going to be biased as a Christian fan but the comedy segments and awful matches ruined it to be honest. The only saving grace being Punk-Mysterio which was alot better than their previous encounters. Punk is also becoming really over with the audience aswell, only Orton and Cena got more cheers.

[FINisher]

CM Punk vs. Mysterio and Orton vs. Christian stole the show (not a surprise there) altough Orton/Christian match wasn't as good of a match as their previous matches I think. Hated the ending.

Riley gets huge pop but doesn't live up to it, sadly.

Am I the only one that thought that the trio of Cole, Booker T and King is just terrible? Seriously. They miss so many spots and things in the matches it just makes me want to mute the voice.

Also, one last thing: I really hate WWE PPV's match order as they mainly finish with a Cena -match (do correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't watch WWE that often but I do check the PPV's). And it (the match) always goes the exact same way. Every time. There's no point to have Cena with the title since everyone knows who's going to win and in what way, too. Or even without the title, come to think of it.

[ShaunGBD]

In other news, wwe.com is a horrible website and I don't think anyone should ever be forced to read it to figure out what happened at a pay-per-view.

I don't use it but why?

[Linsolv]

They hire hack writers who over-tell the story. It's basically like having every match, and the history of the feud behind it, explained by Jerry Lawler (erm... his commentator character, at least. Can't say I know how he really talks.)

[Nathers7]

Am I the only one that thought that the trio of Cole, Booker T and King is just terrible? Seriously. They miss so many spots and things in the matches it just makes me want to mute the voice.

Also, one last thing: I really hate WWE PPV's match order as they mainly finish with a Cena -match (do correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't watch WWE that often but I do check the PPV's). And it (the match) always goes the exact same way. Every time. There's no point to have Cena with the title since everyone knows who's going to win and in what way, too. Or even without the title, come to think of it.

Yea this is the 3rd PPV in a row with Cena winning to finish. I wouldn't be surprised if they had him hold the title all the way to Wrestlemania 28, it would be so stupid but it's something creative would do these days sadly.

I agree about commentary, Booker T is so bad as a commentator that it's funny, Lawler's quality has decreased alot ever since he switched to this face gimmick. Cole is decent, I actually think his gimmick works and will help heels get over. They should pull Booker off commentary and have Josh Matthews there as the face commentator (Matthews usually never misses a spot) with Lawler going back to his clueless type gimmick he used to have with JR.

[Teh_Showtime]

Matt Striker was the modern day Jerry Lawler (90s version) on color in my opinion. He was fantastic, him and Mathews or even Grisham were superb combos in the booth.

[Linsolv]

I like Booker for the most part. Didn't watch the PPV though.

[1234]

Anyone else got a feeling Punk will be gone at the next PPV?

His contract ending soon, it looking like he isn't re-signing, the next PPV being in Illinois. To me it all seems to perfectly set up for him to go out at MiTB.

And as well someone posted a screenshot of a wikipedia page on another site stating the main event as Punk vs Cena career vs title. And in the world of spoilers we live in it could have been a legitimate leak.

Or the rumors of Punk leaving could he false and Punk wins. (Or he wins but still leaves at the end of his contract. Summer of Punk pt. 2?)

[ShaunGBD]

And as well someone posted screenshot of a wikipedia page on another site stating the main event as Punk vs Cena career vs title. And in the world of spoilers we live in it could have been a legitimate leak.

Or the rumors of Punk leaving could he false and Punk wins. (Or he wins but still leaves at the end of his contract. Summer of Punk pt. 2?)

If that is true he won't win.

[20LEgend]

CM Punk vs. Mysterio and Orton vs. Christian stole the show (not a surprise there) altough Orton/Christian match wasn't as good of a match as their previous matches I think. Hated the ending.

Riley gets huge pop but doesn't live up to it, sadly.

Am I the only one that thought that the trio of Cole, Booker T and King is just terrible? Seriously. They miss so many spots and things in the matches it just makes me want to mute the voice.

Also, one last thing: I really hate WWE PPV's match order as they mainly finish with a Cena -match (do correct me if I'm wrong here, I don't watch WWE that often but I do check the PPV's). And it (the match) always goes the exact same way. Every time. There's no point to have Cena with the title since everyone knows who's going to win and in what way, too. Or even without the title, come to think of it.

When I watch WWE on the headphones, one side doesn't have the commentary in so I just put that headphone in and just watch the action and listen to the promos without commentary it's that bad, I enjoy it though, you can here the referee and they basically just say back it up and hey watch it, it's pretty entertaining.

[Teh_Showtime]

Wow Cole, Kelly made you fail hard. Talking about she is a 1 time champ, but she states that she won her first divas title today.

[Prophet]

Three choices, and all came up as B? Why am I fearful that this whole thing is going to become some vehicle for the anonymous GM to "one up" Stone Cold?

[ShaunGBD]

They wouldn't say WWE fans can vote and then screw them.

[Bigpapa42]

They wouldn't say WWE fans can vote and then screw them.

Why wouldn't they? There is no system of accountability here - the WWE can say its the fans picking and do whatever they please. The fans honestly don't have that much say in how things work anyway. If they did, Zach Ryder would get on TV when the WWE does a 3-hour show in his hometown.

[Teh_Showtime]

how would Mason Ryan win 53% after they showed a package of high flying moves. Unless they thought he was Batista, like the crowd did.

[nucleardonkey]

They wouldn't say WWE fans can vote and then screw them.

Can't tell if sarcastic or naive....

Kelly Kelly, Mason Ryan...I call rigged. Kelly Kelly I can see being voted for but Mason Ryan? Not in a million years would he be voted against Evan Bourne by the fans.

[20LEgend]

:D at Christian, The Miz and R-Truth. Then Teddy ruined it with the most predictable match ever!

[lazorbeak]

Anyone else got a feeling Punk will be gone at the next PPV?

His contract ending soon, it looking like he isn't re-signing, the next PPV being in Illinois. To me it all seems to perfectly set up for him to go out at MiTB.

And as well someone posted a screenshot of a wikipedia page on another site stating the main event as Punk vs Cena career vs title. And in the world of spoilers we live in it could have been a legitimate leak.

Or the rumors of Punk leaving could he false and Punk wins. (Or he wins but still leaves at the end of his contract. Summer of Punk pt. 2?)

If he's gone in a month, why did they put him over in a pretty major match on PPV, on a show where Punk, Ziggler and ADR were the only heels going over?

[Prophet]

Can't tell if sarcastic or naive....

Kelly Kelly, Mason Ryan...I call rigged. Kelly Kelly I can see being voted for but Mason Ryan? Not in a million years would he be voted against Evan Bourne by the fans.

Even the Mason Ryan one I can see as an ironic vote ... I refuse to believe that a bunch of people thought an arm wrestling match would be entertaining.

[ShaunGBD]

Can't tell if sarcastic or naive....

Kelly Kelly, Mason Ryan...I call rigged. Kelly Kelly I can see being voted for but Mason Ryan? Not in a million years would he be voted against Evan Bourne by the fans.

I'm saying that they won't come out and say it rigged.

[GhostDogg]

Well I know that Delirious would be pissed that Kofi stole his "Shadows over Hell" Back splash....

[GhostDogg]

so its official.


WWE has to steal ROH storylines...jesus...can yall have an original thought???


coughSUMMEROFPUNKcough

[i effin rule]

so its official.


WWE has to steal ROH storylines...jesus...can yall have an original thought???


coughSUMMEROFPUNKcough

He's been referencing it for a while now. He's mentioned it several times on his twitter, including today.


As a matter of fact, didn't he win the ROH title around this time back in 05?

[Tha Black Phenom]

They've jacked on their own storylines for years, grabbing from another pot of gold is nothing special :p

really though, I love the angle personally. It doesn't guarantee a Cena win and both of them have plenty to work with here. Maybe even bring an authority into the play or whatever like back in the day(some McMahon). But that's not looking so possible, with the brand ran by a stupid laptop.

[GhostDogg]

i think so. but I am going to lie, the Summer of Punk storyline was awesome in ROH, because I dont think it was EVER done before...I mean they put the title on Punk as he was leaving...and at one point I actually BELIEVED that he would leave...

Actually this happened one time, back in my fave promotion in ECW, when the Dudley's was about to leave with the Tag Team titles.

[Prophet]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Punk win, and like last year, have a briefcase cashed in. Like Punk wins his match, they do the MitB three matches later, and (for the sake of argument), Morrison wins, and announces after he is announced the winner that he's cashing in.

It definitely opens the door ... personally, I'd be okay with Punk winning, and walking out champ. The GM vacates the title the next night, and after he gets his rest and relaxation, Punk walks into a ready made story when he wishes to return.

[Jaysin]

I actually kinda like that Truth doesn't have entrance music.

[TakerNGN74]

I actually kinda like that Truth doesn't have entrance music.

So do I, it actually sets him apart from everyone else by not having music.

[Jaysin]

I started watching during the Ziggler/Kingston match. Pretty decent Raw over all. The triple threat was a really good match and the main event was pretty good.

[PoisonedSuperman]

I actually kinda like that Truth doesn't have entrance music.

King Kong Bundy style!! It's awesome.

[20LEgend]

I wouldn't be surprised to see Punk win, and like last year, have a briefcase cashed in. Like Punk wins his match, they do the MitB three matches later, and (for the sake of argument), Morrison wins, and announces after he is announced the winner that he's cashing in.

It definitely opens the door ... personally, I'd be okay with Punk winning, and walking out champ. The GM vacates the title the next night, and after he gets his rest and relaxation, Punk walks into a ready made story when he wishes to return.

I think you could be right with him winning it and then someone cashing it in on him.

[ShaunGBD]

so its official.


WWE has to steal ROH storylines...jesus...can yall have an original thought???


coughSUMMEROFPUNKcough

OMG! I told a friend that. I only read about the storyline those.

[ShaunGBD]

so its official.


WWE has to steal ROH storylines...jesus...can yall have an original thought???


coughSUMMEROFPUNKcough

BTW how did that storyline end?

[milamber]

Average PPV. Undercard was fine but main events were among the weakest this year.

Kofi v Ziggler - Happy Ziggler won.

Riley v Miz - Good brawling by both men and worth of a rematch.

Big Show v Del Rio (and Henry) - Fun filler match.

Zeke v Barrett - Decent match and Barrett was gold on the mic.

Rey v Punk - Rey was on good form but Punk proved again why he's awesome. Best Match of the PPV. Punk could be in line for a title shot at SummerSlam.

Orton v Christian - Didn't hit the highs of their previous matches but the crowd was hot and Orton sold the hell out of his concussion.

Bourne v Swagger - Entertaining filler match from two guys that work well together.

Truth v Cena - Gotta love Truth coming out with no theme music. Surpisingly watchable given that it was Cena versus a perennial jobber. Truth still needs to improve his in-ring work if he wants to main event. Funny ending.

[GhostDogg]

BTW how did that storyline end?


If I remember correctly, it ended where there was a fatal 4 way for the ROH title between Christopher Daniels, Samoa Joe and Jamie Gibson (Noble) in a elimination match.

Noble was injured earlie and Punk wound up Eliminating both Daniels and Joe, which led everyone to believe that he was going to truly win and take the title to the "E", when a bloody and injured Noble came back from the back....and beat the title.


Or...You can watch the story unfold here...

http://youtu.be/QnM4FAXlwMQ

Enjoy, Lord Knows I DID.!

Gh0st

[milamber]

Raw was much better than I thought it would be. CM Punk opening segment was pure gold.

Kofi v Ziggler - good match

Del Rio v Punk v Rey - Really enjoyed this one. I hope the WWE aren't stupid enough to actually let Punk go.

Bryan v Rhodes - Shame it was so short.

Christian, Truth & Miz should start a stable called The Pity Club ;) The segment was so silly I was actually laughing. The tag match was fun.

[eayragt]

There's not a lot wrong with WWE recreating a storyline that came off fantastically well years ago that most of their fans aren't aware of, especially as there are several outcomes to the story. There are a lot of worse places to go.

[cappyboy]

There's not a lot wrong with WWE recreating a storyline that came off fantastically well years ago that most of their fans aren't aware of, especially as there are several outcomes to the story. There are a lot of worse places to go.

Problem with that theory is do they treat their belt with enough dignity and importance to have it work anywhere near as well as where it succeeded six years ago? As I understand the way this storyline worked back in RoH, one of the reasons the story worked so well is because the world title there was held in such high esteem that it would be a disgrace for someone to take the belt elsewhere. Especially to a place that represented selling out a la WWE. Where is there for the WWE to fear their title would go?

Ring of Honor? They may be the cult fed. But if the WWE crowd isn't aware of this storyline having originated there, they aren't going to sweat the title going there. TNA? Puh lease. They talk one game and actually play another. They'll never be a threat with that mindset. Without someplace to fear the belt disappearing to, I don't see how this story can have the necessary juice.
If this were the mid to late 90's, the obvious answer would be WCW. Look at happened with Medusa and the Women's Title. That would be the spectre you could raise of Punk doing with the WWE title if he left with it if this were happening in the landscape of 15 years ago.

But right now they have so many titles and they seem to get passed around so regularly, is anybody really going to care if they are one title lighter? Either in the crowd or the roster in the character sense? If the answer's no as it would appear to be, then this is an incredibly stupid story choice to make.

[Linsolv]

Problem with that theory is do they treat their belt with enough dignity and importance to have it work anywhere near as well as where it succeeded six years ago? As I understand the way this storyline worked back in RoH, one of the reasons the story worked so well is because the world title there was held in such high esteem that it would be a disgrace for someone to take the belt elsewhere. Especially to a place that represented selling out a la WWE. Where is there for the WWE to fear their title would go?

Ring of Honor? They may be the cult fed. But if the WWE crowd isn't aware of this storyline having originated there, they aren't going to sweat the title going there.

I think you have it backwards. If you brought the ROH title to RAW, they'd laugh you out of the stadium. It'd be like trying to buy your ticket with monopoly money.

On the other hand, if you brought the WWE heavyweight title to ROH, they'd be crowing about it for years.

[Fantabulous]

I think you have it backwards. If you brought the ROH title to RAW, they'd laugh you out of the stadium. It'd be like trying to buy your ticket with monopoly money.

On the other hand, if you brought the WWE heavyweight title to ROH, they'd be crowing about it for years.

I don't think you've grasped what he's saying. He's not talking about the ROH fans reaction to the WWE title going there but the WWE fans reaction to the title going there. That being, there wouldn't be one because they don't know about ROH and don't care about ROH.

[eayragt]

Oh, it's not going to work as well as it did six years ago. It just can't - the original was perfect timing, this one whatever the conclusion is has already been predicted. Probably closer to the time there will be a little more certainty as to what Punk was doing, while back in 2005 everyone thought the Aries match was Punk's last, and then no-one knew what his true last match was so expected a title change any time. Now, we've got three options:

1) Cena wins. Punk leaves.

Zzzzz..... hopefully if this does happed Punk just takes a few months off and comes back quickly to face Cena, rather than disappearing.

2) Punk beats Cena. Punk leaves.

Possible - leavers winning on their way out (e.g. RVD over naughty Orton) is not unknown, especially as WWE want Punk back. Gives an excuse for a tournament / multi-man match when there's a new belt (giving the excuse to put the belt on ADR or Morrison), or an excuse to go back to one WWE World Heavyweight Champion.

3) Punk beats Cena. Punk stays.

Punk could stay regularly, Punk could "reluctantly" appear time to time, Punk could extend until he's defeated a la 4 years ago and then take time off.

That's the basics of the results of the storyline. No-one had those as the options years ago

Hoping for some form of 3, as that still leave for several options going forward (and more importantly more Punk). Think it's more likely it'll be 1, which I'll accept as long as ADR takes the title off Cena at SummerSlam. Although I think 2's unlikely, I'm not ruling it out.

[ShaunGBD]

Oh, it's not going to work as well as it did six years ago. It just can't - the original was perfect timing, this one whatever the conclusion is has already been predicted. Probably closer to the time there will be a little more certainty as to what Punk was doing, while back in 2005 everyone thought the Aries match was Punk's last, and then no-one knew what his true last match was so expected a title change any time. Now, we've got three options:

1) Cena wins. Punk leaves.

Zzzzz..... hopefully if this does happed Punk just takes a few months off and comes back quickly to face Cena, rather than disappearing.

2) Punk beats Cena. Punk leaves.

Possible - leavers winning on their way out (e.g. RVD over naughty Orton) is not unknown, especially as WWE want Punk back. Gives an excuse for a tournament / multi-man match when there's a new belt (giving the excuse to put the belt on ADR or Morrison), or an excuse to go back to one WWE World Heavyweight Champion.

3) Punk beats Cena. Punk stays.

Punk could stay regularly, Punk could "reluctantly" appear time to time, Punk could extend until he's defeated a la 4 years ago and then take time off.

That's the basics of the results of the storyline. No-one had those as the options years ago

Hoping for some form of 3, as that still leave for several options going forward (and more importantly more Punk). Think it's more likely it'll be 1, which I'll accept as long as ADR takes the title off Cena at SummerSlam. Although I think 2's unlikely, I'm not ruling it out.

Not to be mean but stop at 1, 2 and 3 won't happened. What gonna happened is Cena is gonna win and not lose going into WM. To make him look strong. Punk beating him does nothing for anyone. It won't happened.

[Fantabulous]

I'm thinking we get a re-run of Jericho's departure in 2005; Punk loses on the PPV, demands a rematch the next night vowing to leave one way or the other, and Cena FU's him into a lengthy sabbatical.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Not to be mean but stop at 1, 2 and 3 won't happened. What gonna happened is Cena is gonna win and not lose going into WM. To make him look strong. Punk beating him does nothing for anyone. It won't happened.

There's no requirement for Cena to look strong though. If we fast-forwarded to Mania and Cena had the title, whether he lost it during the summer and regained it or held it all that time, wouldn't look all that different to me. In overness, he edges the roster out by far, making the proverbial Mania match-up the same as it'd always look, for the most part.

Not to mention they can always change their minds within moment's notice to have a secondary main-event for the WWE title.

[ShaunGBD]

Not to mention they can always change their minds within moment's notice to have a secondary main-event for the WWE title.

I agree with you. honestly I think they should give the title to another match. The match doesn't need it, but I read Vince is hell bend on making it the biggest match of all time. Also I think they think it would help the match if cena runs through everyone. I don't think it needed for him to run through everyone but just what I think.

[Jaysin]

So I'm watching Nitro starting at the VERY beginning. I'm on the second episode now and god I hate Mongo. Bischoff actually isn't bad on commentary. At least I don't think so. Him and Heenan play off each other well, but Mongo just drags the whole team down.

Wayyyy too much football talk.

[cappyboy]

So I'm watching Nitro starting at the VERY beginning. I'm on the second episode now and god I hate Mongo. Bischoff actually isn't bad on commentary. At least I don't think so. Him and Heenan play off each other well, but Mongo just drags the whole team down.

Wayyyy too much football talk.

Well, he hadn't been out of the game very long at that point. Personally I always liked Mongo. I guess maybe he was an acquired taste. Two questions though.

1: Where are you finding to do this from?

2: Any chance of pointing Sonfaro there? Seems like this could be a good resource for him and the Megapack.

[Jaysin]

Well, he hadn't been out of the game very long at that point. Personally I always liked Mongo. I guess maybe he was an acquired taste. Two questions though.

1: Where are you finding to do this from?

2: Any chance of pointing Sonfaro there? Seems like this could be a good resource for him and the Megapack.

1: My brother's friend ordered DVDs of all the Nitro's and pay per views that someone burned onto DVD-R's. It's AWESOME.

2: I found uuhh, another source. I'll see if he's interested in it.

[Candyman]

I think you have it backwards. If you brought the ROH title to RAW, they'd laugh you out of the stadium. It'd be like trying to buy your ticket with monopoly money.

On the other hand, if you brought the WWE heavyweight title to ROH, they'd be crowing about it for years.

I think you're looking at it wrong. It's not about what the reaction would be if the title showed up in the other company, because that doesn't matter - it's never going to actually go there - it's about the reaction of threatening to take away the title from its respective promotion. ROH fans would be a lot more outraged than WWE fans if somebody took one of their titles.

But if they did run this storyline with Punk now, they don't need to have anywhere for him to threaten to take the title. The threat just has to be him leaving the company with it. Having somewhere for him to go would just be icing on the cake.

[1234]

I now love Punk even more. Back in 2005 he posted the following message on livejournal.com (http://cmpunk.livejournal.com/15096.html)

I knew I was gone at the beggining of the year.
I just woke up one day and knew. That's the way I work a lot of the time. I think it's creepy too, but it's really helpful. I honestly knew i'd be history by June.
Come say goodbye on Saturday, I promise to go out with a bang.
Trust me.
XxX

Now on twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/cmpunk) he has posted (pieced together from 3 tweets, stupid character limit)

I knew I was gone at the beginning of the year. I just woke up one day and I knew. That's the way I work a lot of the time.
I think it's creepy too, but it's really helpful. I knew I'd be history by July. Come say goodbye on July 17th. I promise to go out with a bang. Trust me. XxX

I personally love little refrences like that, so when I saw this it made me laugh. Just got to hope the WWE follow ROH's example and let Punk win the title.

[Zeel1]

...Guy's got a good memory, doesn't he? I kinda doubt I'd remember a livejournal post I made six years ago... :p

Certainly digging the allusions, I wonder if he'd get away with doing them on-screen.

[Hive]

Oh man, that re-use of an old blog entry (or whatever it is) is pure gold. Damn Punk is awesome.

And re-using this (apparantly pretty awesome) storyline can be gold for WWE, I think. His last match is at MiTB, right? Then have him take the title, declare that he'll leave with it... only to have a babyface winner of the MiTB match declare that he wants to stop Punk, challenge him on the spot and take the title... Morrison seems like the best choice here. Could make him a huge hero for the fans just like that.

[cappyboy]

And re-using this (apparantly pretty awesome) storyline can be gold for WWE, I think. His last match is at MiTB, right? Then have him take the title, declare that he'll leave with it... only to have a babyface winner of the MiTB match declare that he wants to stop Punk, challenge him on the spot and take the title... Morrison seems like the best choice here. Could make him a huge hero for the fans just like that.

Problem with that thinking is that it makes too much sense. That would be

GASP

Wrestling. That would give the belt

SHUDDER

real value.

WWE doesn't have the stomach for that kind of behavior these days.

[Jaysin]

I see Punk winning against Cena and then Del Rio winning the Raw MITB and then cashes in on Punk after he beats Cena.

Remember that MITB is in Chicago and Chicago boos Cena and cheers Punk, so Del Rio is bound to get even more heat by beating Punk even if they're both heels.

[LoNdOn]

I see Punk winning against Cena and then Del Rio winning the Raw MITB and then cashes in on Punk after he beats Cena.

Remember that MITB is in Chicago and Chicago boos Cena and cheers Punk, so Del Rio is bound to get even more heat by beating Punk even if they're both heels.

That would probably be the best way to play it. Not sure it will unfold as predicted though.

[1234]

I see Punk winning against Cena and then Del Rio winning the Raw MITB and then cashes in on Punk after he beats Cena.

Remember that MITB is in Chicago and Chicago boos Cena and cheers Punk, so Del Rio is bound to get even more heat by beating Punk even if they're both heels.

To be honest I thought that as well, but it doesn't really lead to a fued being set up for the next PPV. I get the point that its Chicago and they treat Punk as a face, so Del Rio (or any other heel for that matter) will get a large amount of heat from the crowd, but where does it go from their.

-You just had a heel save the promotions main title. That's a pretty face move no matter how you say it.
-The main face of the brand has just been beaten, and having Cena come out and say "You didn't beat me for the title" lacks the kick it should have since Cena just lost the title. And beside's Cena there isn't another face in a real position to challenge for the title.

The options for me are:
-Face cashes in MiTB (However this will create a clash in Chicago since they won't be cheered much)
-A heel wins MiTB and turns to save the belt. (Or perhaps The Miz saving the belt he believes is his, however again the same problem as above)
-Punk leaves MiTB with the title, and appears out of the crowd at Raw to gloat about his victory. Only for the GM to say since he is in his ring, he is eligible to compete, and out comes a face to try and save the title. This could be strung out for a bit, like the original Summer Of Punk.

[cappyboy]

But that still raises the question of what there is to save it from. Even if Punk were to take it with him, where's the harm in it? I think even the markiest fan knows WWE would just vacate the belt because Punk left. There's no place to fear it going where it could be disgraced. WWE's so far above the rest of the wrestling landscape as their fanbase knows it there's no threat to the title even if Punk "takes it with him".

[1234]

But that still raises the question of what there is to save it from. Even if Punk were to take it with him, where's the harm in it? I think even the markiest fan knows WWE would just vacate the belt because Punk left. There's no place to fear it going where it could be disgraced. WWE's so far above the rest of the wrestling landscape as their fanbase knows it there's no threat to the title even if Punk "takes it with him".

I think there would be the belief that the actual belt was gone. Yes they could have a tournament to crown a new champion, but with the belt gone it would be pointless. Having Punk & the belt not show up for a few weeks would get the fear going in my opinion. This assuming he actually leaves Chicago with the belt. If not it would just be the belief it could happen

And because I have just watch Raw fully, I have to give some love to the great Punk line "I suggest you watch me make snow angels" :D

[ShaunGBD]

And because I have just watch Raw fully, I have to give some love to the great Punk line "I suggest you watch me make snow angels" :D

Didn't he said that at a ROH show? I think I get it now.

[Jaysin]

Wow, I completely forgot that The Giant's first match ever in WCW was against Hogan for the title.

And people complain nowadays about people being godpushed.

On my WCW quest, I'm up to Halloween Havoc 95. I am aware I have no life, but I imagine I'll be at least through 95 by the end of tomorrow.

Definitely gonna start 96 as soon as I'm done. Some of this stuff takes me back to being a little kid being so into WCW and other stuff makes me want to forget about my childhood(Mongo on commentary, Kevin Sullivan in general, Disco Inferno, Zodiac).

I catch myself at points turning into a little kid again.

[ampulator]

Wow, I completely forgot that The Giant's first match ever in WCW was against Hogan for the title.

And people complain nowadays about people being godpushed.

Although your correct, you are leaving some context out. Although they don't push people as hard they did back then, they push it way faster than they should. On other hand, they did push people extremely fast back then, but they were better reasons to do back then-WWE and WCW were competing against each other, and they go all out against each other.

Also, if they didn't work out as good as they hoped, they simply dialed it back. These days, WWE follows the philosophy of "if it's not already broken, drive it the ground" mentality.

[Jaysin]

World War 3 may have been a giant cluster ****, but there was some pretty good drama. If anyone gets irritated with my random WCW posts in here, I'll stop them. I just figured this was the best place since WWE owns WCW and what not.

[masterded]

World War 3 may have been a giant cluster ****, but there was some pretty good drama. If anyone gets irritated with my random WCW posts in here, I'll stop them. I just figured this was the best place since WWE owns WCW and what not.

My favorite World War 3 moments are both Nash related. The first is in 1997 when he came down from the rafters dressed as Sting. The second is in 1998 when he stops every one in the ring and gets them to throw out the Giant.

[Jaysin]

Working my way towards Starrcade now. HOLY CRAP this match between Mr JL and Eddie Guerrero is awesome.

[Jaysin]

On Starrcade 95.

Liger vs Benoit- AWESOME match.

Alex Wright vs Koji Kanemoto- Another fantastic match. Watching this early stuff is reminding me of how awesome Alex Wright really was. Its too bad the Berlyn gimmick had such bad timing.

[The Final Countdown]

Didn't he said that at a ROH show? I think I get it now.
He didn't just say it--he actually did it. He ran out of the building and started making snow angels in his wrestling trunks. :eek:

[ShaunGBD]

On Starrcade 95.

Liger vs Benoit- AWESOME match.

Alex Wright vs Koji Kanemoto- Another fantastic match. Watching this early stuff is reminding me of how awesome Alex Wright really was. Its too bad the Berlyn gimmick had such bad timing.

What was the bad timing with the Berlyn gimmick

[Hive]

On Starrcade 95.

Liger vs Benoit- AWESOME match.

From what I've heard, they had several excellent encounters in Japan prior to this. Apparantly, these two workers had awesome chemistry.

[cappyboy]

What was the bad timing with the Berlyn gimmick

Can't say I know the official answer. For my money, it was that it happened at all. Alex did the dancing fool gimmick really well and Berlyn just killed his heat dead in the Cappyboy household. The stretch from dancing fool to Berlyn was too great for me to ever buy into.

[PoisonedSuperman]

What was the bad timing with the Berlyn gimmick

Columbine High School.

Beryln dressed in all black, wearing a black trench coat. So did the killers...

And although Alex Wright was a good dancer/wrestler, Berlyn was going to be his Main Event opportunity (I think). I thought that it was cool looking character, and thought that he was going to be a star. He had the wall as a bodyguard, didn't he even have a manager? Like Torrie Wilson or something?

[juggaloninjalee]

Berlyn was awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4n3NTOEP8

[cappyboy]

Columbine High School.

Beryln dressed in all black, wearing a black trench coat. So did the killers...


Maybe this is just a case of memory getting fuzzy with age combined with having hated the gimmick to start with. But I seem to remember Berlyn having gone by the boards before Columbine happened.

[Hive]

Berlyn was awesome!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cj4n3NTOEP8

Holy cow, that's awesome! I'm an instant Berlyn mark. Finally, Wright's good in-ring skills got a suitable gimmick... too bad nothing major came from it.

[Jaysin]

Maybe this is just a case of memory getting fuzzy with age combined with having hated the gimmick to start with. But I seem to remember Berlyn having gone by the boards before Columbine happened.

Columbine happened in April, Berlyn later in the year.

[The Final Countdown]

My memory's a little fuzzy when it comes to late WCW, but didn't the announcers bury the Berlyn gimmick on air? And I also seem to remember his opponents refusing to sell for him and going out of their way to make him look bad.

[Jaysin]

My memory's a little fuzzy when it comes to late WCW, but didn't the announcers bury the Berlyn gimmick on air? And I also seem to remember his opponents refusing to sell for him and going out of their way to make him look bad.

Well Bagwell got angry he was going to lose to Berlyn and decided to miss his flight.

[djthefunkchris]

Wow, I completely forgot that The Giant's first match ever in WCW was against Hogan for the title.

And people complain nowadays about people being godpushed.

On my WCW quest, I'm up to Halloween Havoc 95. I am aware I have no life, but I imagine I'll be at least through 95 by the end of tomorrow.

Definitely gonna start 96 as soon as I'm done. Some of this stuff takes me back to being a little kid being so into WCW and other stuff makes me want to forget about my childhood(Mongo on commentary, Kevin Sullivan in general, Disco Inferno, Zodiac).

I catch myself at points turning into a little kid again.

Although your correct, you are leaving some context out. Although they don't push people as hard they did back then, they push it way faster than they should. On other hand, they did push people extremely fast back then, but they were better reasons to do back then-WWE and WCW were competing against each other, and they go all out against each other.

Also, if they didn't work out as good as they hoped, they simply dialed it back. These days, WWE follows the philosophy of "if it's not already broken, drive it the ground" mentality.

I think Heyman said it best about Modern booking. They are getting too complicated. In TNA they are too into the backroom stuff (for example), both companies trying to break through the 4th wall (I believe that's how he put it). He said why? It's a simple story all the time, everytime. It writes itself, it's nothing but an old Western movie. You have the bad guy ride into town, cause all kinds of trouble. Meanwhile you have the good guy that can beat him. You have the bad guy beat everyone else but in the end, the good guy wins. Simple, not complicated at all. Will work with anyone, any gimmick.

I believe you can find the whole thing on Youtube. Listening to him, while being completely calm and not really having any bones with anyone at all, talking about it so matter-of-factly. Just made alot of scense, especially since the biggest things I ever here when watching (from other's watching), is "Come on, get to a match already, this is boring!" Said many different ways, but most of the time the biggest complaints I here are about not getting to the action *(that matters... chaos that don't matter/no real match going on, is the same as having someone talk for 15 minutes, without a real match going on).

[cappyboy]

Columbine happened in April, Berlyn later in the year.

So like I said, time and bias were blunting my memory. No worries. It happens.

[Jaysin]

So like I said, time and bias were blunting my memory. No worries. It happens.

Was just clarifying is all :)

[Fantabulous]

Berlyn first showed up on Nitro the day before Columbine.

When they brought him back later in the year, his first big PPV match was at Fall Brawl and was meant to be against Buff Bagwell. But Buff refused to lose cleanly so they put Duggan in there instead who did lose clean but in the process did everything he could to make Berlyn look bad. The next night, they did get Buff to agree to lose but it wasn't clean.

The problems as far as his push came were that right before Fall Brawl, Eric Bischoff was removed from power and that meant new people in charge of creative. Which in wrestling usually results in the perceived favourites of the old regime getting the shaft in favour of those the new person in charge wants to push. Case in point being the Revolution who were pretty hot at the time but come Fall Brawl, they boldly predicted a clean sweep of their matches and promptly went 0-3.

[codey]

Has anyone else noticed that Christian is basically in a face role despite being a heel? He continually gets screwed in legitimate ways, and they want us to boo him? I'm not sure if it's because they wanted more heel challengers for Orton or were afraid to turn Orton, but it's just kind of...strange. And I don't think it's just that I'm a fan of Christian and an internet fan or whatever, I would have thought this was weird way back when I was a kid.

[Wrestling Century]

Has anyone else noticed that Christian is basically in a face role despite being a heel? He continually gets screwed in legitimate ways, and they want us to boo him? I'm not sure if it's because they wanted more heel challengers for Orton or were afraid to turn Orton, but it's just kind of...strange. And I don't think it's just that I'm a fan of Christian and an internet fan or whatever, I would have thought this was weird way back when I was a kid.

My two buddies who watch wrestling from time to time with me (and aren't smarks or marks) think that it is strange as well. One of them thinks that it is the dumbest fued that he has ever saw. And do you know why? It's because he thought at first that their were two good guys fueding until I told him that Christian was supposed to be the bad guy. Epic fail right there WWE. :p

[Jaysin]

Wow, WWE finally releases Chavo. I'm hoping he requested for his release considering they turned him into a joke.

I hope he goes somewhere else that will appreciate his talent and not turn him into a jobber to midgets.

[Wrestling Century]

Wow, WWE finally releases Chavo. I'm hoping he requested for his release considering they turned him into a joke.

I hope he goes somewhere else that will appreciate his talent and not turn him into a jobber to midgets.

I was hoping for the slim chance that WWE would give him a push but I guess that that would probably never happen. I wonder what company he will work for now.

[MrOnu]

Has anyone else noticed that Christian is basically in a face role despite being a heel? He continually gets screwed in legitimate ways, and they want us to boo him? I'm not sure if it's because they wanted more heel challengers for Orton or were afraid to turn Orton, but it's just kind of...strange. And I don't think it's just that I'm a fan of Christian and an internet fan or whatever, I would have thought this was weird way back when I was a kid.

On the other hand, Orton has been face by default for a long time. I mean, he acts pretty much like he was when he was a heel, but since he's going against clear heel much of the time, he's considered a face.

[angeldelayette]

Wow, WWE finally releases Chavo. I'm hoping he requested for his release considering they turned him into a joke.

I hope he goes somewhere else that will appreciate his talent and not turn him into a jobber to midgets.

Impact Wrestling here he comes? A great surprise for the Destination X pay-per-view, right?

[Jaysin]

Impact Wrestling here he comes? A great surprise for the Destination X pay-per-view, right?

I'd imagine he has a 90 day no compete clause.

I'd be excited if he showed up in ROH or Impact really.

[Stennick]

Impact Wrestling here he comes? A great surprise for the Destination X pay-per-view, right?

Ninety day no compete clause will make sure that doesn't happen. Also lets not forget Chavo Guerrero is 41 guys. He debuted in WCW in 1996. He was one of the very few contracts bought out by the WWF/E in 2001. Simply put this guy has been constantly employed by a major professional wrestling company for 15 years.

Although TNA's not above hiring former WWE mid carders I really think that there are younger and more talented guys that deserve to be given a chance at being hired than a 41 year old WWE mid carder. I like Chavo but this isn't 1980 anymore where you have three national pro wrestling companies and everyone can stay employed into their sixties. Not too mention for Chavo's health I think it should be about time to retire. 41 is very old in pro wrestling especially for someone that wrestles the style he does.

I'd say it'd be cooler for him to show up for a few ROH shows something where he can show up every few months, wrestle some up and comer and then go back home. Not where he's forced to perform at a high level weekly. Not too mention if he went the wrestling school route ROH would be a good way to promote that.

[lazorbeak]

My two buddies who watch wrestling from time to time with me (and aren't smarks or marks) think that it is strange as well. One of them thinks that it is the dumbest fued that he has ever saw. And do you know why? It's because he thought at first that their were two good guys fueding until I told him that Christian was supposed to be the bad guy. Epic fail right there WWE. :p

Yes because it's an epic fail if a guy isn't 100% heel at all times. I like it, as it shows continuity. Christian does have a legit complaint, but rather than make a 180 degree turn in character, he's gradually become more and more of a heel throughout the story. I can't stand when a guy goes from high-fiving the audience to permanent frowny-face because somebody told them they're supposed to be a heel. He's getting strong reactions and they could easily go a lot of different directions with this story and beyond. Frankly it's been one of WWE's top angles and it's a shame they've been focusing more on the Raw stuff, which has generally not been as strong.

As for Chavo, hopefully he works an actual reduced schedule with somebody, as he's 40 years old and hopefully has a few bucks saved by the past 15 years working in national level promotions.

[Jaysin]

Ninety day no compete clause will make sure that doesn't happen. Also lets not forget Chavo Guerrero is 41 guys. He debuted in WCW in 1996. He was one of the very few contracts bought out by the WWF/E in 2001. Simply put this guy has been constantly employed by a major professional wrestling company for 15 years.

Although TNA's not above hiring former WWE mid carders I really think that there are younger and more talented guys that deserve to be given a chance at being hired than a 41 year old WWE mid carder. I like Chavo but this isn't 1980 anymore where you have three national pro wrestling companies and everyone can stay employed into their sixties. Not too mention for Chavo's health I think it should be about time to retire. 41 is very old in pro wrestling especially for someone that wrestles the style he does.

I'd say it'd be cooler for him to show up for a few ROH shows something where he can show up every few months, wrestle some up and comer and then go back home. Not where he's forced to perform at a high level weekly. Not too mention if he went the wrestling school route ROH would be a good way to promote that.

It'd be fantastic if he started his own school.

[Teh_Showtime]

If I can see Chavo on my TV, I will be happy. TNA's X division looks to be going in the right direction, so they will probably have me hooked for a while. If we can get to see Chavo, that would be great.

Although I think it would be fun to see him in ROH as he winds down

[20LEgend]

His tweets don't look like he's ready to retire, dunno where he'll go, certainly not against him in TNA (EDIT: or ROH for that matter)but the way he's talking about why he left it seems TNA aren't much better at that tbf.

[Gabbo]

Chavo could probably have a run at the top in ROH for a while.

[cappyboy]

Chavo could probably have a run at the top in ROH for a while.

Don't know he really fits the profile RoH is suggesting they want to bring in. But RoH does have some history with the Guerreros via his Uncle Eddie and could put on style of match RoH is known for. So he'd probably be a better fit than most unemployed veterans.

[ZMAN]

Chavo is actually someone I wouldn't mind seeing in TNA or ROH. He wasn't used that much in WWE so it would be interesting to see him have a shot in another company.

[Zeel1]

I know none of this is ever going to happen, but I just got a crazy idea for how they could tie the two current World Title stories together. Punk wins at MITB, and is subsequently forced to continue appearing on a minimum number of Raws - however, he only shows up every other week, and when he does, it's 'in protest'. The Anonymous Raw GM starts to get desperate to get a real World Champion for his/her show again, and so contacts Christian - sends a few messages to his IPad maybe, I dunno - to strike a deal: the Raw GM helps Christian win the World Heavyweight Championship, and in return, Christian leaves SmackDown! and signs over to Raw, bringing the title with him. (Would probably try Orton first, but he turns it down.) Christian, at this point utterly despising Teddy Long for his horrible decisions, is more than happy to accept this. So the Raw GM has Raw superstars invade SD! and interfere in Christian's matches, helping him to get one last title shot at SummerSlam.

Don't really know where things would go from there, but it's just something that popped into my head. Would be pretty fun to watch, and it'd also build quite a bit of tension between the brands again, just in time for Bragging Rights, which I believe would just be two months away at the time of SummerSlam, so... oh no, wait, they removed that from the calender it seems. Ah well, Survivor Series then... :p

[Fantabulous]

Someone needs to show me where the 2011 version Chavo can wrestle the fast-paced and high impact style employed by ROH. The guy is 41, has years of wear and tear on him, not to mention was one of the many wrestlers suspended in the wake of the high profile Signature Pharmacy bust of 2007. Oh, and has been nothing but a glorified jobber for the last several years including the legendary feud with Hornswoggle. Call it a hunch, but I don't think ROH will give him a 'run at the top'. I don't think they even do the Straight Shooting series any more, so there goes one reason to give him even a courtesy match.

[sebsy]

That does sound quite cool actually Zeel. Although I should point out that there is no Bragging Rights this year.

[Zeel1]

I know, I said that... :p

[sebsy]

:o

Ha, I didn't read the line after it :(

[lazorbeak]

Someone needs to show me where the 2011 version Chavo can wrestle the fast-paced and high impact style employed by ROH. The guy is 41, has years of wear and tear on him, not to mention was one of the many wrestlers suspended in the wake of the high profile Signature Pharmacy bust of 2007. Oh, and has been nothing but a glorified jobber for the last several years including the legendary feud with Hornswoggle. Call it a hunch, but I don't think ROH will give him a 'run at the top'. I don't think they even do the Straight Shooting series any more, so there goes one reason to give him even a courtesy match.

Well they'd probably give him a job because he is actually a really solid worker, and ROH tends to like giving chances to guys like that (Jerry Lynn even won the ROH title at age 45). But you're right, the idea of Chavo getting a "run at the top" is pretty ridiculous.

[Teh_Showtime]

I dont see him being a champion, or anywhere that. Maybe a gatekeeper heel for the up and coming faces to make them look good before they go on to bigger things.

[Fantabulous]

Well they'd probably give him a job because he is actually a really solid worker, and ROH tends to like giving chances to guys like that (Jerry Lynn even won the ROH title at age 45). But you're right, the idea of Chavo getting a "run at the top" is pretty ridiculous.

I don't think Chavo has the level of respect of the ROH fans that Jerry had or the credibility to where they'd readily accept him as part of the regular roster. Plus Jerry had the well earned rep of not just being a solid worker but a worker who could get good matches out of bad workers and make the more spot-orientated workers look better than they really were. Chavo has none of that going for him, plus I don't think ROH/Sinclair are going to make a hullabaloo about ROH being all about the young and hungry wrestler who can blow you away with their skill and athleticism and then turn around and give Chavo a spot on the roster.

With all that, I could see ROH bringing in one older wrestler, possibly someone with name recognition and a good worker, to be their 'legend' wrestler.

[GatorBait19]

Did Jerry also get that run because of the movie the Wrestler. They did a storyline similar to the movie with Lynn battling the younger ****y wrestler and winning the title.

[Clp605]

I don't know how big Chavo is in Mexico but I would like to see him head across the border and help the buisness down there.

[Teh_Showtime]

I imagine his name alone would make him a legit threat in Mexico.

[milamber]

Would have liked Chavo to be a manager and occasional guest announcer but WWE don't really do that much except in NXT.

I must say Smackdown is really good right now. I think with the reduced air time compared to Raw they're really focusing on progressing their story lines, developing their characters and not wasting time with filler. The Bryan/Rhodes feud is good and the tag division is improving with the Usos and Gabriel/Slater looking like legit tag teams. I've enjoyed the Christian/Orton feud but I'm not sure about Christian getting another shot at MITB. Either they think it's still got enough heat or they're planning something less straight forward because they're basically spamming the feud at this point.

[Zeel1]

Who said anything about unifying the major titles?

[Jaysin]

Someone needs to show me where the 2011 version Chavo can wrestle the fast-paced and high impact style employed by ROH. The guy is 41, has years of wear and tear on him, not to mention was one of the many wrestlers suspended in the wake of the high profile Signature Pharmacy bust of 2007. Oh, and has been nothing but a glorified jobber for the last several years including the legendary feud with Hornswoggle. Call it a hunch, but I don't think ROH will give him a 'run at the top'. I don't think they even do the Straight Shooting series any more, so there goes one reason to give him even a courtesy match.

You seem to forget Jamie Knoble who in WWE has always been treated as a joke and a jobber, but in ROH he won their world title.

[Rone Rivendale]

I am going to be chastized for this but I always found Chavo to be OVERrated due to the fact that he is a Guerrero. He is a cruiserweight who wrestles like he thinks he is a 6'2" 240lbs guy. He isn't very good on the mic. His only worthwhile storyline was 'Kerwin White' and that was cut short because of Eddie passing away.

It isn't like WWE didn't TRY to push him. He was the ECW World champion for Pete's sake. But even then, he wasn't up to par and they had Kane beat him at WM in 8 seconds.

TNA would be a bad fit, and ROH would be even worse. He would be the 'WWE reject' in TNA. And ROH expects their wrestlers to be good at wrestling and I don't find Chavo enjoyable in the slightest as a wrestler.

That's my opinion. I am alone in it. And that's okie. :D

[Jaysin]

I am going to be chastized for this but I always found Chavo to be OVERrated due to the fact that he is a Guerrero. He is a cruiserweight who wrestles like he thinks he is a 6'2" 240lbs guy. He isn't very good on the mic. His only worthwhile storyline was 'Kerwin White' and that was cut short because of Eddie passing away.

It isn't like WWE didn't TRY to push him. He was the ECW World champion for Pete's sake. But even then, he wasn't up to par and they had Kane beat him at WM in 8 seconds.

TNA would be a bad fit, and ROH would be even worse. He would be the 'WWE reject' in TNA. And ROH expects their wrestlers to be good at wrestling and I don't find Chavo enjoyable in the slightest as a wrestler.

That's my opinion. I am alone in it. And that's okie. :D

You also think Glen Gilberti is a good wrestler, so I don't think your opinion counts too much :p

[masterded]

You seem to forget Jamie Knoble who in WWE has always been treated as a joke and a jobber, but in ROH he won their world title.

ROH had a different mindset, booker, and ownership then. Plus it was one of the worst reigns in ROH history (though not as bad as Xavier’s). It just seems to me that his name value isn’t enough to make signing him a logical move. I mean sure he is a good wrestler, but why bother with a 40 year old good wrestler when you have a dozen in their 20s and 30s already with the company. It would be a different story though if ROH were making a push for Mexico.

[Jaysin]

Man, watching the early days of Bagwell is insane. Its really too bad that bad booking and him being a prick ruined his career. He had a good look and was decent in the ring.

Also, Road Warriors vs Luger and Sting is about to happen on my television :D

[ampulator]

He wasn't bad, but Bagwell was very lazy in the ring at times. Not so lazy as to get people injured, but just lazy to put on a good match, especially in the last days of WCW.

[Jaysin]

He wasn't bad, but Bagwell was very lazy in the ring at times. Not so lazy as to get people injured, but just lazy to put on a good match, especially in the last days of WCW.

I haven't seen the laziness yet, but at where I'm at he's still teaming with Riggs as the American Males. He just had a good outing with Flair. Then again, it was against Flair :p

[Stennick]

I know Flair held Bagwell in high regard. When he runs down the legends of WCW/NWA in his last Nitro promo. Which by the way might be one of the single greatest promos I've ever seen. He mentioned Steamboat, Steiners, Road Warriors, Sting, Luger....and Bagwell.

If he was in the WWF during the "attitude era". I believe he would have been a big deal. He had a GREAT look, he could talk, he could work with anyone. The only thing that ever set him back was that he was stuck in WCW mid card hell forever. He never had a memorable program that went anywhere.

By the time he had a chance to shine he just didn't care anymore.

[ampulator]

I haven't seen the laziness yet, but at where I'm at he's still teaming with Riggs as the American Males. He just had a good outing with Flair. Then again, it was against Flair :p
This was because WCW's environment encouraged his vice, which was mainly ego. It's okay to demand crazy amounts of money and do little, but to demand to move up the card do something meaningful-that was out of the question.

People blame WCW environment for a lot of bad behavior from wrestlers, which is fair, but there a lot of good people that came out of WCW that were well-behaved when they were in WCW and outside of it. In Badwelll's case, he learned to demand like a jerk for a lot of privileges, but to never demand to be pushed higher.

[Stennick]

You know I don't remember too many stories of Bagwell being hard to deal with. He wouldn't lose to Berylyn but to be fair Bagwell was one of their more bankable stars at the time and Berylyn was just Alex Wright who had mostly been a comedy act up until that point.

Its not like the guy went around making outrageous demands. Sure he never became that great of a worker but why should he? Hogan, Savage, Nash, Hall, Piper, Goldberg, The Giant. Its not like any of those guys were any good in the ring at that point in their careers (or in some cases ever).

He had a good look, he could talk, he was easily able to play babyface or heel. He had an awesome finisher with a pretty cool name.

He wasn't Chris Jericho or Eddie Guerrero but he could have been a big deal in a world where he got any sort of push at all. Heck I'd say that at one time they gave Chris Jericho more character and mic work than they gave Buff.

Usually it was "hey lets team him up with Scott Norton, or hey lets team him up with Scott Steiner, or hey him and Luger are the two must cut guys on the roster lets feud them".

[Fantabulous]

ROH had a different mindset, booker, and ownership then. Plus it was one of the worst reigns in ROH history (though not as bad as Xavier’s). It just seems to me that his name value isn’t enough to make signing him a logical move. I mean sure he is a good wrestler, but why bother with a 40 year old good wrestler when you have a dozen in their 20s and 30s already with the company. It would be a different story though if ROH were making a push for Mexico.

And the small fact that, like with Lynn, there was a strong level of respect for Noble because of how good he was. But hey: Chavo for ROH Champ!!

You know I don't remember too many stories of Bagwell being hard to deal with. He wouldn't lose to Berylyn but to be fair Bagwell was one of their more bankable stars at the time and Berylyn was just Alex Wright who had mostly been a comedy act up until that point.

You must not have been around much in the last few years of WCW because the guy was notorious for having a bad attitude and not wanting to lose; did you not see the debacle with Lex Luger at Greed? Or hear about the time in the WWF right before the Invasion when Shane Helms gave him a black eye for acting like a prick? Or maybe wonder why he didn't last long in the WWF in the first place and was gone in record time, but not before an in-ring beatdown from, amongst others, the Acolytes was delivered rather stiffly because he was universally hated?

Bagwell was a bankable star? Yikes.

[Hive]

You know I don't remember too many stories of Bagwell being hard to deal with.

Really? Everytime I've read about Bagwell, it has pretty much been negative stories about his lack of professionalism and the size of his ego.

I think he could have been a world champion with a better approach to the business.

[cappyboy]

Man, watching the early days of Bagwell is insane. Its really too bad that bad booking and him being a prick ruined his career. He had a good look and was decent in the ring.

Also, Road Warriors vs Luger and Sting is about to happen on my television :D

You like early Bagwell? Get his work in Global as The Handsome Stranger. The gimmick was kind of cartoony. Sort of a masked lothario type. Picture like Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon. But he did well with it. Once I made the connection between The Handsome Stranger and Marcus Alexander Bagwell I was a big fan until the stories about his attitude started coming to light.

And I agree with those who say that once he'd developed and gotten on the stage we remember him for that he could have world champ if he hadn't sabotaged himself with the big head. The guy can be really under-rated sometimes because of the attitude problems. But que sara sara. He brought that problem on himself.

[angeldelayette]

You like early Bagwell? Get his work in Global as The Handsome Stranger. The gimmick was kind of cartoony. Sort of a masked lothario type. Picture like Tuxedo Mask from Sailor Moon. But he did well with it. Once I made the connection between The Handsome Stranger and Marcus Alexander Bagwell I was a big fan until the stories about his attitude started coming to light.

And I agree with those who say that once he'd developed and gotten on the stage we remember him for that he could have world champ if he hadn't sabotaged himself with the big head. The guy can be really under-rated sometimes because of the attitude problems. But que sara sara. He brought that problem on himself.

I met Marcus in person at an MACW show here in town and he was nice enough to me personally. But I told him that I remembered him as the Handsome Stranger and he seemed genuinely surprised that anyone remembered that gimmick.

[TheLeviticalLawKid3]

Just watched The Rise and Fall of WCW on Netflix. Made me wonder: Where is Gregory Helms nowadays?

[Fantabulous]

Just watched The Rise and Fall of WCW on Netflix. Made me wonder: Where is Gregory Helms nowadays?

Early last month, Helms seemed to think that drinking a lot before getting on his motorbike and taking his girlfriend for a ride was a good idea. It wasn't, and Helms suffered "a broken leg, ankle, jaw, and nose during the accident, as well as sustaining other fractures and receiving over 200 stitches, while his girlfriend sustained a broken vertebrate".

[Stennick]

And the small fact that, like with Lynn, there was a strong level of respect for Noble because of how good he was. But hey: Chavo for ROH Champ!!

So you're saying that Noble is a better worker than Chavo? You're saying because Noble was a good in ring worker or respected as such but they wouldn't have the same respect for a guy like Chavo? When Noble came to ROH we had no idea truly what he was capable of. We had seen flashes in WCW and in the WWE. I'm not saying that Chavo should be champion or should be anything more than a few appearances here and there. Although I am saying that Chavo was raised in the same family as the rest of the Guerrero's and he's forgotten more about wrestling than anyone in that company knows. To not bring him in for a seminar or a few matches just to pick the guys brain seems a bit crazy.

You must not have been around much in the last few years of WCW because the guy was notorious for having a bad attitude and not wanting to lose; did you not see the debacle with Lex Luger at Greed? Or hear about the time in the WWF right before the Invasion when Shane Helms gave him a black eye for acting like a prick? Or maybe wonder why he didn't last long in the WWF in the first place and was gone in record time, but not before an in-ring beatdown from, amongst others, the Acolytes was delivered rather stiffly because he was universally hated?

Bagwell was a bankable star? Yikes.

By the time WCW was on its last legs (the last two years) wasn't the time frame I'm talking about. I'm talking about 96,97,98 when this guy had the right look, a great gimmick and could have been a pretty big deal. I see no evidence that this guy couldn't have been a big star. He didn't get a run as a singles champion in the entire history of that company. Given that Prince Iakea and others got runs with the meaningless TV Title thats a bit shocking.

Again the problem was WCW had a certain way of viewing things. "You're a main eventer, you're a mid carder, you're a cruiserweight" and rarely if ever did you break out of that mold. If that card structure would have been looser and he would have had a focused push the guy could have been a star.

[Fantabulous]

So you're saying that Noble is a better worker than Chavo? You're saying because Noble was a good in ring worker or respected as such but they wouldn't have the same respect for a guy like Chavo? When Noble came to ROH we had no idea truly what he was capable of. We had seen flashes in WCW and in the WWE. I'm not saying that Chavo should be champion or should be anything more than a few appearances here and there. Although I am saying that Chavo was raised in the same family as the rest of the Guerrero's and he's forgotten more about wrestling than anyone in that company knows. To not bring him in for a seminar or a few matches just to pick the guys brain seems a bit crazy.

When Noble when to ROH, I would definitely call him a better worker than Chavo is now. Respecting Chavo? Right now, I'd say the respect for him wouldn't be a whole lot for reasons I've already mentioned. Not to mention to the credibility issue for working as a jobber to a midget for three or four months solid. It's one thing to be working a lame storyline against decent/good talent or being relegated to having decent matches on the 'B' shows; I ROH fans can look past that. But being the most absurd jobber of the year, to a midget, in a feud that people absolutely hated? I'd say that's a little too much for them to accept Chavo in any kind of serious or long-term role. Bring him in for a seminar? Sure, and I don't believe I said anything to suggest I'd be against just that. As for bringing him in for a few matches, I don't think it would be worth it financially; he's unlikely to draw enough to fans for it to make economic sense, having him beat some established names would probably be shat on by the fans even if he puts someone over at the end, and bringing him just to beat undercard guys would be pointless.


By the time WCW was on its last legs (the last two years) wasn't the time frame I'm talking about. I'm talking about 96,97,98 when this guy had the right look, a great gimmick and could have been a pretty big deal. I see no evidence that this guy couldn't have been a big star. He didn't get a run as a singles champion in the entire history of that company. Given that Prince Iakea and others got runs with the meaningless TV Title thats a bit shocking.


You might want to make it clear what time frame you are talking about, next time. In any event, I still think you're vastly overrating Bagwell in every department, but at least you're not claiming he had more charisma than The Rock.

[lazorbeak]

Not sure why nobody else hasn't brought this up, but Bagwell was never the same worker after that injury to his neck and spine. He had to tone down his style and got lazier in the ring. He also seemed to have a big ego. But while I don't think he ever could've been a world champ, he certainly could've been a solid US Title type guy.

[Fantabulous]

Not sure why nobody else hasn't brought this up, but Bagwell was never the same worker after that injury to his neck and spine. He had to tone down his style and got lazier in the ring. He also seemed to have a big ego. But while I don't think he ever could've been a world champ, he certainly could've been a solid US Title type guy.

You know, he could have been a super over sympathetic babyface coming back from the neck injury. Weeks of vignettes of Bagwell rehabbing the injury, vowing to come back and climb to the top, etc. Naturally, WCW turned him heel the moment he returned.

[Hive]

By the time WCW was on its last legs (the last two years) wasn't the time frame I'm talking about. I'm talking about 96,97,98 when this guy had the right look, a great gimmick and could have been a pretty big deal. I see no evidence that this guy couldn't have been a big star. He didn't get a run as a singles champion in the entire history of that company. Given that Prince Iakea and others got runs with the meaningless TV Title thats a bit shocking.

Again the problem was WCW had a certain way of viewing things. "You're a main eventer, you're a mid carder, you're a cruiserweight" and rarely if ever did you break out of that mold. If that card structure would have been looser and he would have had a focused push the guy could have been a star.

But I'd argue that they did try to push him. Problem was that as soon as they began aiming him for greener pastures, he quickly got way too full of himself and started acting up.

And WWE even put him the the world title picture, but not even that could apparantly motivate him to get his act straight.

Bagwell is not a victim of anything but his own ego.

[Rone Rivendale]

while his girlfriend sustained a broken vertebrate".

Kinda surprised no one has fired off a 'vertebreaker' joke.

[ampulator]

The thing is, there are many "backstage problems" in WCW, but Bagwell's was not like Hogan's, and Hogan's was not like Bagwell's.

Although Bagwell never backstabbed his way to the top, he did his best to make sure no one below him would go over him. And that's not exactly entirely his fault, considering WCW's backstage chaos encouraged such behavior. He also was the kind to demand for a lot of privileges. While he might try to mess with someone else's push or try to book himself to the best, he made sure he was never sold short, EVER, tried to have a lot of privileges, and coast it when it came near the end of WCW.

[TheLeviticalLawKid3]

Early last month, Helms seemed to think that drinking a lot before getting on his motorbike and taking his girlfriend for a ride was a good idea. It wasn't, and Helms suffered "a broken leg, ankle, jaw, and nose during the accident, as well as sustaining other fractures and receiving over 200 stitches, while his girlfriend sustained a broken vertebrate".

Seriously??? Daaaaaaaaaang. Was he still wrestling before this?

[Stennick]

No he's been released from the WWE since February of LAST year so he's been unemployed for a year and a half now, well in the sense of no major wrestling work.

[Jaysin]

He was doing indie stuff and he was working for Lucha Libre USA

[Candyman]

He was doing indie stuff and he was working for Lucha Libre USA

And using Twitter to take shots at HBK that haven't been accurate in a decade.

[justtxyank]

On Bagwell, he could have been world champ. He had good charisma and a great look and (as mentioned) before the major injury was pretty fun to watch in the ring. He could have been a US champ easily.

After the neck injury he was still passable in the ring and had a TON of face sympathy. WCW messed up a good thing though. When the crowd is reacting to you the way they were reacting to Bagwell, why not capitalize on that? Instead they had him play it up for a minute, turn right back heel and be Scott Steiner's lackey. Then when they finally turned him face they did a lot of stupid stuff like bringing his mother into the picture. A dumb feud with Piper...

ugh.

I know the guy was a prick apparently, but he had all the stuff to be a main eventer and most people knew it. The wrestling mags loved the guy. I remember WOW Magazine running an article about how Bagwell pinned Flair in a six man tag and how that could be the start of his push. It was squandered of course.

Good look? Check
Cool finisher? Check
Good charisma? Check
In-Ring talent? Check

[juggaloninjalee]

What happened with Buff in the WWF? I remember WCW had a match on Raw after it was bought out and I think it was Buff vs Booker T or something but I don't remember seeing Bagwell after that.

[Hive]

What happened with Buff in the WWF? I remember WCW had a match on Raw after it was bought out and I think it was Buff vs Booker T or something but I don't remember seeing Bagwell after that.

Apparantly WWE was dissapointed with the crowd reaction and Bagwell's general attitude.

[i effin rule]

Apparantly WWE was dissapointed with the crowd reaction and Bagwell's general attitude.

I thought it had something to do with his Mom calling the company or something.

[Stennick]

C all of the above.

Booker and Bagwell had a match full of rest holds in the main event of Monday Night Raw which bored the crowd. Then Bagwell claimed to have an injury that no one could find. Then he got into a fist fight with Helms. Then his mother called the company demanding he get time off for this phantom injury.

[juggaloninjalee]

C all of the above.

Booker and Bagwell had a match full of rest holds in the main event of Monday Night Raw which bored the crowd. Then Bagwell claimed to have an injury that no one could find. Then he got into a fist fight with Helms. Then his mother called the company demanding he get time off for this phantom injury.

Honestly that is hilarious. He had his mom call for him. Wonder how things would have went if Booker and Buff actually put on a good match. Think Smackdown would have become WCW Nitro or something?

[Teh_Showtime]

Im pretty sure that was the plan, but for the same reasons the invasion didnt work like we feel it could (lack of big WCW names) I dont blame them for not going through with it.

[smurphy1014]

Seriously??? Daaaaaaaaaang. Was he still wrestling before this?

He had wrestled for PWG earlier this year and got a less than favorable reaction from the crowd.

[Stennick]

Im pretty sure that was the plan, but for the same reasons the invasion didnt work like we feel it could (lack of big WCW names) I dont blame them for not going through with it.

At the time every single pro wrestling show on television was under the Viacom banner. UPN didn't want to take Smackdown off of the air which at the time was a ratings monster for them and replace it with a failed company and a failed companies television show. Not even for Vince McMahon especially since this was RIGHT after the XFL had failed miserably.

So without UPN wanting to replace Smackdown with Nitro and without TNN wanting to add ANOTHER wrestling show to its stock of three or four at the time. And without Viacom wanting to be another NBC and get into bed with Vince on another project (even if that project was wrestling) WCW really had no option and thats why the Invasion happened.

Remember WCW was sold to Fusient Media and the only reason Vince got it was because Turner Networks were ending all WCW programming and not a single other network was interesting in the show. Without television the product was virtually worthless and Vince would have had the same problem shopping it to other networks would have yielded the same results.

I guess you could argue that Buff/Booker is a success then Helms and Kidman tear down the house on Smackdown which leads to a big time jump in the ratings and then Vince can go to Viacom or UPN or whoever and get Nitro back on the air that way.

[ShaunGBD]

I know tonight is RAW Roulette, I read Shawn Michael and Y2J book, and they said the fan voting is NOT fixed (which I believe them) Any know for a fact is the RAW Roulette is fixed or they shoot the wheel till it falls on what they want.

[Fantabulous]

My favourite Bagwell anecdote came from Gary Michael Capetta's book. Bagwell took his wife with him on the road and thought it would be a good idea to stay at the Super 8 while in Kansas City. Which it would have been. Had it not been the same hotel where he would screw the local rats. Very predictably, she found out and flew home in a rage.

Any know for a fact is the RAW Roulette is fixed or they shoot the wheel till it falls on what they want.
Yeah, they spend countless hours just filming that wheel going around and around until it falls on the right option.

[Gabbo]

Don't they zoom in on the ticker as the wheel slows? Seems easy enough for someone to slow the wheel down and manipulate where it stops by holding any other part of the wheel not on camera.

[jhd1]

Apologies if this has been covered before, but I couldn't spot it in the last couple of pages.

I'm in the middle of watching last Friday's Smackdown...when did Daniel Bryan become so confident on the mic!? He was reasonable on NXT (certainly not deserving of the terrible charisma reputation he had going into it), but the segment between Rhodes and Bryan was very, very good. And I don't normally like Rhodes either. And boy did Dusty get a pop when Bryan mentioned his name! :D

[Fantabulous]

Daniel Bryan was always underrated on the mic.

[ampulator]

Like I said before, WCW's environment encouraged Bagwell's vices. For Nash, it encouraged his more selfish, mercenary behaviors. For Bagwell, it was his sense of entitlement and prvilege (regarldess of position), ennui (not wanting to work hard near the end of WCW), and ego (that guy's not going over me!)

Bagwell reminds me of an jerkish and less talented 90's version of the Miz. While he had special in-ring skills, he was well-rounded and had just enough in-ring talent, along with decent performance skills to be someone with his looks and charisma.

Problem was, like Alex Wright, he never made it anywhere.

On that note, I think Alex Wright's situation is much more disappointing than Bagwell's situation. At least Bagwell made it to the midcard... everyone thought Wright was going to be somebody. But somehow, like Barry Windham, he ever seemed to go anywhere, even when everyone thought, at least initially, that he was a future star.

Over time, though, he just was there. If Bagwell was involved in Midcard fueds, then there was even less for Wright. Quite sad.

[Bull]

With all the WCW talk figured I could post this.:)

-Diamond Dallas Page revealed on Twitter that he’s backstage in Las Vegas for tonight’s WWE RAW. Page posted a picture of himself and several WWE crew members in front of a steel cage – a strong indication that we’ll see a cage match on tonight’s show. DDP is expected to make a cameo on tonight’s show to promote the new Best of WCW Nitro DVD set.

[Hive]

On that note, I think Alex Wright's situation is much more disappointing than Bagwell's situation. At least Bagwell made it to the midcard... everyone thought Wright was going to be somebody. But somehow, like Barry Windham, he ever seemed to go anywhere, even when everyone thought, at least initially, that he was a future star.

Over time, though, he just was there. If Bagwell was involved in Midcard fueds, then there was even less for Wright. Quite sad.

Bagwell had a much better look than Wright, more charisma and was better on the mic (though it should be said that I rate Wright's evil German promos very highly!). About Barry Windham... the guy was a Horseman and a former world champion. And, iirc, he also won both the US title and the tag team title. He didn't get a long run as a main eventer, but he got there at least for a while.

[Fantabulous]

Bagwell had a great physique, so I guess if that constitutes a good 'look' and then I guess he had a good look. The guy was unremarkable in all areas; not necessarily bad just not good, either.

[lazorbeak]

Like I said before, WCW's environment encouraged Bagwell's vices. For Nash, it encouraged his more selfish, mercenary behaviors. For Bagwell, it was his sense of entitlement and prvilege (regarldess of position), ennui (not wanting to work hard near the end of WCW), and ego (that guy's not going over me!)

Bagwell reminds me of an jerkish and less talented 90's version of the Miz. While he had special in-ring skills, he was well-rounded and had just enough in-ring talent, along with decent performance skills to be someone with his looks and charisma.

Problem was, like Alex Wright, he never made it anywhere.

On that note, I think Alex Wright's situation is much more disappointing than Bagwell's situation. At least Bagwell made it to the midcard... everyone thought Wright was going to be somebody. But somehow, like Barry Windham, he ever seemed to go anywhere, even when everyone thought, at least initially, that he was a future star.

Over time, though, he just was there. If Bagwell was involved in Midcard fueds, then there was even less for Wright. Quite sad.

This reminds me of the poster calling R-Truth a career jobber a few pages ago... just what do you consider the "midcard" if Alex Wright isn't in it? He was a staple of the midcard, working a program with Jericho over the TV title, feuding with McMichael over Debra, programs with Regal and Finlay. Yes, he never got out of WCW's enormous midcard, but to make it sound like he wasn't a midcarder is underselling him by a pretty significant margin.

As far as Bagwell, I agree that he was never anything special. Even at the best of times, he was only billed at 6'1 and even back when people liked him his style didn't fit what WCW's heavyweight division was doing; there just wasn't that extra special something that makes him anything more than a US champion type guy for me. Your world champ really should be the best at something, whether he's the best wrestler, has the best promo skills, the best look, whatever, and Bagwell was none of those.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

zomfg HBK comeback?

[GhostDogg]

Sweet Chin Music....NEVER GETS OLD!!!

[Jaysin]

Something was really off about Sin Cara vs Bourne.

[Teh_Showtime]

If Bourne and Cara get another 10-15 minutes to tell a story, that could have been a 4 star match at least.

[Jaysin]

If Bourne and Cara get another 10-15 minutes to tell a story, that could have been a 4 star match at least.

I dunno...there was seemingly no flow or chemistry between them to me. Everything looked sluggish and slowed down.

[Teh_Showtime]

exactly they worked.at a pace too slow for 5 minutes. More.time would have.allowed them to turn up the pace gradually and it wouldnt feel rushed. That seemed to be a mere tease.

[Jaysin]

exactly they worked.at a pace too slow for 5 minutes. More.time would have.allowed them to turn up the pace gradually and it wouldnt feel rushed. That seemed to be a mere tease.

Oohh, I see what you're saying.

Also, I'm praying DDP shows up.

Am I the only one kind of digging Mark Henry right now?

[GhostDogg]

ITS ME, IT ME, D.D.P!!!


Its great to see him back again.... Maybe he can teach Orton to do a decent "variation" of Diamond Cutter!!


Plus HBK Superkicking Makintyre....FUNNIEST S**T EVER!!!

[Jaysin]

Bada Bing! Bada Boom! Bada...bang!

[ampulator]

This reminds me of the poster calling R-Truth a career jobber a few pages ago... just what do you consider the "midcard" if Alex Wright isn't in it? He was a staple of the midcard, working a program with Jericho over the TV title, feuding with McMichael over Debra, programs with Regal and Finlay. Yes, he never got out of WCW's enormous midcard, but to make it sound like he wasn't a midcarder is underselling him by a pretty significant margin.

As far as Bagwell, I agree that he was never anything special. Even at the best of times, he was only billed at 6'1 and even back when people liked him his style didn't fit what WCW's heavyweight division was doing; there just wasn't that extra special something that makes him anything more than a US champion type guy for me. Your world champ really should be the best at something, whether he's the best wrestler, has the best promo skills, the best look, whatever, and Bagwell was none of those.
To be fair, he was a midcarder early on. That I give. But over the years, even when compared to guys like Bagwell, he just slowly, but surely slipped down the card... becoming to being on the lower end of the midcard. Looking back, it was not something that was enjoyable to see.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Definitely digging Henry as well. His ranting lines at the audience are just great. "I'm over here, you're over there!"

Glad tornado tag team matches are making an apparition again and HBK was golden as usual. Not that I think Sin Cara/Bourne was a masterpiece but I bet a lot of people expected too much out of it. For a TV match, that is.

[GhostDogg]

is it me or is Reilly getting more and more impressive every week?

[ampulator]

Mark Henry was always pretty good on the mic, and he had a lot of charisma.

Problem is, though, he can't talk LIKE a monster heel... he can talk like a Jerk Heel. On the other hand, he had the look of a monster heel, and not of a Jerk Heel.

[jjohns44]

lmao! CM Punk, that is the best shoot ever!

[i effin rule]

Wow.


Worked shoot or straight shoot, either way that was amazing.

[ShaunGBD]

lmao! CM Punk, that is the best shoot ever!

I think it was scripted but still badass

[Jaysin]

CM Punk is god.

Best wrestler in the world?
New Japan Pro Wrestling?
Ring Of Honor?
Colt Cabana?

AMAZING

[TheEdgeOfReason]

It may be reactionary, but I believe that is the best promo I've ever seen.

Summer of Punk is upon us.

[GhostDogg]

Ok...

I am going to say this...that was one of the BEST SHOOT PROMOS....EVER!!

And I have seen alot of them... I think this might solidify him leaving the "E" and think he may have crossed the line, with him speaking about Vince "dying", and insulting Step and Trips. but you know... If you gonna go out, go out in a BLAZE of glory!!!


"HI Colt Cabana !!" Classic!!

[Bull]

In my opinion that is probably one of the best promos that I have see in WWE in a long time.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I have no words. I don't know what to say, hahaha. Probably one of the most leeway-given worked shoots of all time, I'm guessing. Incredible.

[Zeel1]

That may have been the most surreal promo I have ever seen...

No way he's leaving. They wouldn't let him say all of that, and then just go. Not a chance.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

He buried Steph, Trips, Johnny Ace, Rock, Hogan, Cena, Vince

That was amazing

[jjohns44]

Didn't seem to say something like 'I hear TNA is always hiring' not that they're close to WWE and are far from promotions like ROH, just something to turn the knife even more into Vince.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I wonder if Austin's shirt had a meaning behind all of this.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Didn't seem to say something like 'I hear TNA is always hiring' not that they're close to WWE and are far from promotions like ROH, just something to turn the knife even more into Vince.

It was a worked shoot I'm pretty sure, they would have cut him off long before they did if it was real, I think.

[The Final Countdown]

It was a worked shoot I'm pretty sure, they would have cut him off long before they did if it was real, I think.
Yeah, I feel the same way. Still, that was some captivating stuff.

"Maybe I'll go back to Ring of Honor." Yes, please! (Not going to happen, I know, but I'd love it.)

[ThriceP86]

Ha ha, I loved Punk's shoot. I just wish he didn't get cut off by USA network... maybe that's why though, since he even bashed the USA network too. :D

[i effin rule]

- According to fans in attendance at tonight's RAW in Las Vegas, after tonight's show went off the air Michael Cole announced that WWE has suspended CM Punk indefinitely.

Saw this on LOP.

[Apupunchau@optonline]

Fans in the front row were bowing to his genius. Best 3 minutes of TV let alone wrestling I've seen in awhile.

[Zeel1]

Yeah, saw the headline of that on NoDQ.com, but apparently they're getting a damn lot of traffic at the moment, 'cause when I clicked it, the site appeared to be down... interesting to see how this will play out.

[SaySo]

Saw this on LOP.

I believe they are taping Raw right now as we speak. That would be a spoiler. Just giving you a heads up.

[i effin rule]

I believe they are taping Raw right now as we speak. That would be a spoiler. Just giving you a heads up.

If it is a spoiler then WWE is spoiling themselves. Fink also posted it in the Live RAW Chat.

[Tha Black Phenom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swhuXu-5quw

It's not all of it, but it's a start. Edit: Ignore this link, click the one below

[b0shey]

looking at the spoilers for next week, that shoot Punk did looked legit

[MasterJ]

Colt Cabana is trending worldwide on twitter

[Tha Black Phenom]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OS9wZGb_3g

This should be it right here.

[Zeel1]

looking at the spoilers for next week, that shoot Punk did looked legit

Come on, they'd have cut his mic off like ten minutes earlier than they did if they didn't want him saying that, they wouldn't let him talk about ROH or New Japan, and then be all "Oh, he's mentioning the bully campaign now?! OKAY, CUT"

[Tha Black Phenom]

Well, to be more thorough he said "let me tell you a personal story about Vince McMahon", which prompted the cutting off. He had barely said the words "anti-bullying" when it happened - thing is though, that seemed like the perfect lead-up, scripted-wise, to have your mic cut off too. Worked shoots just need to get realer and realer as time passes by. :cool:

[The Final Countdown]

Well, to be more thorough he said "let me tell you a personal story about Vince McMahon", which prompted the cutting off. He had barely said the words "anti-bullying" when it happened - thing is though, that seems like the perfect lead-up, scripted-wise, to have your mic cut off too.
"He can mention other promotions, he can insult me, my daughter and my son in law, but I'll be damned if I let that son of a (gun) talk about the anti-bullying campaign!"
-Vince McMahon

[Save_Us.Necro]

WWE.com just posted this:

Monday Night Raw’s abrupt conclusion last night was not due to technical difficulties. The decision to suddenly end the broadcast in that manner was made by WWE Chairman and CEO Vince McMahon, who gave this quote to WWE.com:

“CM Punk was suspended indefinitely for his unprofessional conduct as soon as Raw went off the air.”

With his WWE contract expiring on July 17, one can only assume that this suspension effectively terminates CM Punk’s tenure with WWE.


great great promo by punk. i can only hope this is the begining of something huge.

[BloodyKnuckles]

"I'm in full, "what are they going to do, fire me?" mode."

CM Punk's twitter from 5 hours ago. :o

[Zeel1]

"I'm in full, "what are they going to do, fire me?" mode."

CM Punk's twitter from 5 hours ago. :o

Yeah, Cole actually mentioned that.

[i effin rule]

Pretty sure it is a work at this point, but they removed his page on wwe.com

[Tha Black Phenom]

His Facebook page too. It's pretty funny how it's all going, especially with people like Maryse, Josh Matthews, Grisham, JR and Austin praising the promo on Twitter.

Edit: He single-handedly got ROH trending on Twitter. Now how many people can do that :p

[Prophet]

Colt's got the best twitter, though ... using the trend to promote hugs. lol

[Zeel1]

Apparently, they also unverified his twitter account.

...I... had no idea they could even do that...

[PoisonedSuperman]

His Facebook page too. It's pretty funny how it's all going, especially with people like Maryse, Josh Matthews, Grisham, JR and Austin praising the promo on Twitter.

Edit: He single-handedly got ROH trending on Twitter. Now how many people can do that :p

Anybody who mentioned ROH while working for the WWE on live tv.

[mjdgoldeneye]

Just popping in to say:

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

[The Final Countdown]

I'm not sure if ROH itself had ever trended before, but some of their wrestlers have. I know Eddie Edwards did after his surprise title win a few months ago, and I heard Kevin Steen did yesterday thanks to his appearance on the iPPV.

[Johnny Fenoli]

WOW. (back to my hiatus)

[i effin rule]

I'm not sure if ROH itself had ever trended before, but some of their wrestlers have. I know Eddie Edwards did after his surprise title win a few months ago, and I heard Kevin Steen did yesterday thanks to his appearance on the iPPV.

It was trending yesterday during its iPPV.

[Save_Us.Necro]

I remember Matt Hardy made ROH's search results go up huge when he did his thing.

[codey]

I must be way behind on my internet lingo, because I have no idea what trending means.

[TakerNGN74]

I must be way behind on my internet lingo, because I have no idea what trending means.

It's a twitter thing, trending means what people are talking about most on the site.

[mjdgoldeneye]

**Spoilers**

It appears that, if my intel is right, it was just a very brilliant work. CM Punk is going to be reinstated on next week's Raw.

**End Spoilers**

[TakerNGN74]

That's what I figured plus numerous reports on several wrestling websites I go to said the same thing.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Spoiler

Yeah, and they messed it up already it's Cena-Punk if Punk wins Cena is fired, so basically they took away any possibility of Punk winning

/Spoiler

[djthefunkchris]

Hmm, going to have to evaluate some stats on some mods after that promo.

I'm going to say this, because I don't know what is and isn't true about the whole thing. I just been following the storyline, and I'm going to predict something.... I ussually don't, as I would rather watch and hope to be surprised, but this is a "WOW!" thing here.

I think everything has been a "work". From the whole "won't sign you unless you give us your name" to this promo (although I think it was a "shoot" promo... he was allowed to do what he wanted there).

I think the sound went off, as it would always go off (the end part) and then we would see the WWE Logo.... This time no logo, as they opted to show us Punk ranting up till the end. This screamed "work" to me.

I don't know if he will be working right after Money in the Bank, but I sincerely believe he already has a contract agreement, and the only thing I think might happen is he will take time off for a couple of months or something along those lines (if that long, or at all for that matter). Right now, he's too hot to let go anyways. At least in my opinion.

In other words, I don't think Vince (and company) is that nuts to let this guy go at this point, especially AFTER tonight. I didn't believe they were letting him go in the first place, after being able to catch the whole "Summer of Punk" run-down on youtube and other places. ROH are nothing more then WWE's new ECW, and have been for years. I think they know exactly what they are doing here.

[Remianen]

ROH are nothing more then WWE's new ECW, and have been for years. I think they know exactly what they are doing here.

Now, I know you're a WWE enthusiast, chris, so I don't want to take this the wrong way so could you explain this in greater detail? I ask because I see absolutely no evidence that what you're saying is actually true. WWE isn't integrating key parts of ROH's product into theirs. WWE isn't signing ROH's top talent in wholesale fashion (you've got what, Punk, Cabana, Black, and...? Three workers in seven years?). So how is ROH "nothing more than WWE's new ECW"?

[i effin rule]

Now, I know you're a WWE enthusiast, chris, so I don't want to take this the wrong way so could you explain this in greater detail? I ask because I see absolutely no evidence that what you're saying is actually true. WWE isn't integrating key parts of ROH's product into theirs. WWE isn't signing ROH's top talent in wholesale fashion (you've got what, Punk, Cabana, Black, and...? Three workers in seven years?). So how is ROH "nothing more than WWE's new ECW"?

Rumor has it that Kings of Wrestling have offers on the table after a tryout. Not signed yet though.

Plus Matt Stryker and Danielson.


Not saying I agree, but just thought I add to the list.

[The Final Countdown]

My post is now irrelevant--beaten to the punch.

I don't think Matt Stryker was ever signed by WWE though, was he? (Matt Striker and Matt Stryker are two different people.)

[i effin rule]

My post is now irrelevant--beaten to the punch.

I don't think Matt Stryker was ever signed by WWE though, was he? (Matt Striker and Matt Stryker are two different people.)

Matt Sydal = Evan Bourne


Edit to fix my mistake.

For some reason I put Stryker down instead of Sydal and I can't really think of why.

[i effin rule]

Sorry. Actually, I meant Sydal. Not sure why on earth I put down the unibrow.

[djthefunkchris]

Now, I know you're a WWE enthusiast, chris, so I don't want to take this the wrong way so could you explain this in greater detail? I ask because I see absolutely no evidence that what you're saying is actually true. WWE isn't integrating key parts of ROH's product into theirs. WWE isn't signing ROH's top talent in wholesale fashion (you've got what, Punk, Cabana, Black, and...? Three workers in seven years?). So how is ROH "nothing more than WWE's new ECW"?

I don't mean "Product" wise, although in this particular case, it seems a blatant storyline.

I meant in terms of respect. Everything I've ever read on how the WWE feels about ROH, respect is top of the list of it. I feel that WWE respects them, and wouldn't do anything to hurt them. I think WWE respects NJPW as well. I don't think they respect TNA, but again, they have never said anything bad... Fact, the only thing I heard Vince say about TNA is in reguards to Kurt "I'm certainly happier with him going their then the alternative" in which he meant happier Kurt went to TNA rather then MMA fighting.

The only reason I think Punk was allowed to say NJPW and ROH was because of that respect.

EDIT: WWF respected ECW, and actually tried to help them out on more then a few occassions... even going so far as to give their worker's screen time on WWF programming.

[Candyman]

Why are all these websites calling it a shoot? The term is a "worked shoot" - something that is planned to sound like a shoot. A shoot is unscripted, unplanned, kayfabe breaking. Clearly they wouldn't let CM Punk go off and say whatever he wants and let it air.

And just so this doesn't turn into another Daniel Bryan "firing" situation where some people still insist it was legit even after the fact, let's make this clear right now. If CM Punk stays in the WWE, if he's on Raw and wrestles at MITB, there is a 0.0% chance that it was a shoot. If CM Punk (or any wrestler) did that without permission, his name would never be mentioned on air again. So we'll know beyond a shadow of a doubt whether he did this with or without permission very soon.

I'm open to the possibility that, like somebody here said, he may have just been given an open mic and allowed to go wherever he wanted. Personally I doubt it, but 5 hours ago I never would've believed they'd let him give that promo under any circumstances.

And like someone else said, this really makes me believe he re-signed with them, and maybe this storyline was a condition of his return. And if that's the case...I can't help but think he's going to win the title at MITB.

In response to the spoilers...

SPOILERS
I COMPLETELY disagree with the notion that they "messed it up" by making the stipulation that if Punk wins, Cena is fired. And I even more strongly disagree that this means Cena will win. How many times have we seen guys get "fired" in a storyline before? Hell, we've seen it with Cena himself. And I don't know if you heard, but a couple weeks ago there were reports that Cena was working hurt...if that's true, this could be their way to write him off TV until he gets healthy.
/SPOILERS

It is kind of sucky timing for them, that they did this in the middle of a double taping. Could've really built up the anticipation for next week's Raw.

[codey]

Well, outside of the internet, there is anticipation. The only people that really know are the fans in attendance and those of us online. Really, we make up a miniscule part of the audience. Most fans don't even know it's a double taping and are eagerly awaiting next weeks "live" RAW is WAR (I just miss saying that:D)

[Wrestling Century]

(SPOILERS)

I'm a smark and while I was watching his worked shoot promo, I thought that it, well, wasn't worked. But I am honestly shocked that they allowed him to say those things on air. I really hope that he renewed/signed a new contract with WWE, because he has really shown that if they give him free reign of what he says on the mic, he could become a true legend. He's already got great in ring skills, IMO they just need to let him say whatever he wants on the mic and he will become a legend up there with the likes of The Rock and Stone Cold!

(SPOILERS)

[Tha Black Phenom]

None of that was really spoiler material, WC.

[Self]

I loved this. Read a transcript first thing this morning. Just watched the promo on Youtube. I don't watch WWE any more, but this makes me want to start.

It'll never happen, but I would pay cash money to see Punk take the belt to ROH. I'd fly to America to see that happen.

[Stennick]

That was the most awesome ending to RAW I've seen in ten years easy.

[Hive]

Oh dear lord, that was awesome. My favourite part was when Punk declared himself to be the best WRESTLER in the world. Not sports entertainer, but wrestler. Good stuff.

[Nathers7]

WWE Chairman Vince McMahon suspends CM Punk
Raw’s abrupt conclusion Monday night was not due to technical difficulties. The decision to suddenly end the broadcast in that manner was made by WWE Chairman and CEO Vince McMahon, who gave this quote to WWE.com:

“CM Punk was suspended indefinitely for his unprofessional conduct as soon as Raw went off the air.”

With his WWE contract expiring on July 17, one can only assume that this suspension effectively terminates CM Punk’s tenure with WWE.

http://www.wwe.com/shows/raw/2011-06-27/mcmahon-suspends-punk

Lol, this makes things very interesting, this could turn into one of the best storylines in years. It was clearly a work though, no way they would've allowed him to talk for so long if it was a shoot.

[Mr Rager]

One of the greatest things that I've seen on Raw in a long, long time.

[kipfizh]

Absolutely staggeringly good. Don't post much at all, just come here to read you folks' take on things, but to me there are a few clear conclusions to be taken from this.

1) Punk is unbelievably good at his job. That people are wondering how legit his rants were prove that, and his blurred the lines between a work and real gripes beautifully. The crowd in attendance cheering him saying he was the best was priceless, and he reacted to that by putting them down, one of the heelish things he could have done (and likely improvised based on their reaction). Stunning.

2) There is no way Punk is leaving permanently. He may lose and take a hiatus, he may not leave at all, but I cannot see how he could be allowed to become THAT over and then walk out. Remember that the storyline only has a few weeks to run before his supposed leaving date. If he really were to leave forever, there is no way he'd be allowed to rise at pace to the top like this. He is now top dog, no question.

3) I actually give the E a great deal of credit for allowing Punk to go as far as he did. Again, I've no doubt what he said was with permission, but to take what many know to me some of his real issues and run with them to that degree would sit uncomfortably with most employers. They don't get their dues often, but I'll give them a lot of credit for not forcing him to tone down (which they could have done by cutting him off earlier if they felt he was going too far).

One of the best things about this? Everyone is eagerly awaiting the following week. Nice job.

[juggaloninjalee]

I haven't seen the promo but it sounds great!

[Fantabulous]

I haven't seen the promo but it sounds great!

You should see it, it was great. I was delivered with such passion and believability, probably because Punk does believe most of it, that it's not surprising some people think it was legit.

[The Shape]

Love the promo. A step further than Styles a few years ago, I cannot believe some of the stuff he said particularly about after Vince is dead, brilliantly delivered.

Spoilers re: next week
The Punk promo was good, but I cannot WAIT to see this Cena/Vince confrontation. Glad I spoiled it because otherwise I wouldn't have watched it. If you read the way in which it's done, the "Cena being fired" angle makes perfect sense.

[1234]

Great work by Punk, although I am annoyed they cut him off.

Spoilers

The Cena stip makes sense in the way it was done, but it wasn't at all necessarry. After Punk was 'suspended' that was one of the few ways it could have been done, but why suspend him. Just say "Punk has to apologise next week on Raw or he is stripped of his title shot" and then have him offer a sarcastic apology. It would have been much better than minimising the chance of Punk actually winning.

Considering they have completely built it up for Punk not appearing after MiTB, since he said to HBK that he wont keep coming back (or somethng to that nature). So thats all ready one big star gone after MITB, would they let Cena go at the same time. Even if they were both storyline firings Raw would still be lacking for a few weeks before they can come back.

And what about the winner of the #1 contenders match on next weeks Raw. Is he screwed out of his title shot or is he inserted into the match?

[milamber]

Raw Roulette was pretty good. First time in awhile that I enjoyed it more than the last Smackdown. Highlights:

Punk's opening and closing segments on the mic (Totally off the hook at the end. I bet HHH helped brainstorm the angle ;) )

Bourne v Sin Cara

Mark Henry ripping off the cage door and slamming Big Show through the cage

A rare and exciting tornado tag match (with A-Ri hip-tossing Miz from the top rope)

Truth beating Cena with interference from Punk wearing a Stone Cold shirt

[eayragt]

Never has an angle reminded me so much of Matt Hardy attacking Edge. And the speculation that came afterwards. For all those who think this was Punk going off base, let me ask you this - how do you think Raw was meant to end this week?

Even though he was allowed to do it, Punk still rocks.

[crownsy]

in response to 1234

Spoilers


What exactly makes the fact that cena might be "fired" a give away that he'll win? remeber when he was fired by the Raw GM for violating his orders? he wasen't even off the show for a week.

And, given the multiple reports that Cena is pretty banged up and needs a month off at least, I could easily see him losing, Punk keeping the title and them pursuing some sort of "You have to defend our belt, contract or no"" situation going on, a few faces in a row fail with punk looking dominate, and Vince having to ""re-hire" cena as his white knight for summerslam to get the company belt back.

side note: they could even end the whole mystery GM thing by having him reveal himself to "deal with punk" and make him defend the title despite being "out of contract"

off the top of my head:

1. punk wins, cena is fired (keep him off live TV for 2-3 weeks, but mabey show his tweets, him watching at home, have vince/gm kill him in promo's for failure ect if you really feel like you need to remind the audience he's around)

2. Next Raw, you have the GM reveal himself (foley?) and tell punk that he overlooked a clause in his contract that says he has to defend one a month as long as he's champion regardless of employment status (heels never read the fine print after all ;))

3. Punk "reluctantly" defends a few times, winning against whatever faces are thrown to him in good, competitive matches

4. Start having backstage segments, announcer suggestions, ect that Cena is the only one who can "regain" the title for the WWE

5. Have Vince Reinstate him on the condition that he bring the title back home or he's gone for good

6. Give CEna-Punk time to have an awesome match at SS, cena wins much to the kiddies delight, and punk (who i am quite sure at this point has a deal, otherwise why let him do this and gain MASSIVE pop and buzz, only to watch him show up in ROH/TNA in 3 months?) takes a break then returns.

[LoNdOn]

That CM Punk promo gave me goosebumps. Fantastic work all around.