The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Jaysin]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKWA4kvq2Bc- John Cena vs Bryan Danielson from Velocity years ago. Good little match. I wish Cena still wrestled this style personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyqvP5nCsY&NR=1- John Cena vs Paul London from Velocity years ago. Seriously, I'm not a fan of Cena, but the guy is talented.

I did like him back in the day though. The face Cena just bores me and I wish he'd wrestle his older style

*edit*

Also, I miss the hell out of Ernest Miller

[cappyboy]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/307/192/prototype_display_image.jpg?1279648527

Holy f... this pic is ridiculous! When I first skimmed it, I nearly thought it was a young Sid Vicious. :eek:

Or maybe that somebody had shrunk Lex Luger. :)

[shawn michaels 82]

Okay, do you not see a certain paradox here? Because my tone is "arrogant," I am "beeing" incorrect, even though you seem to acknowledge it's an opinion. But you're the one that said you had a right to an opinion.

Again, I believe your statements about being picked on were ridiculous, so I called it ridiculous. Not you, not your actions. You're the one that have apparently said it's "unfair" for people to pick apart the things you say. I have not disrespected you or insulted you in any way, nor have I flat out dismissed the things you say (the way you have).

Also I love the "this is the last thing I will say" line. It never gets old.

I try to make it the last thing, but you always have to start answering in that tone. Don0t justify your actions with "it's my opinion", cause you do have the right to have one, but you don't need to say that you disagree with me in that tone. I've been doing a whole lot of an effort not to disrespect you. And with that tone...it hasn't been easy. :D So...when in comes to the whole Cena thing...and the rest of the debate...let's agree in disagee. Ok? Cause seriously, i have nothing against you, and the only thing getting ridiculous here will be us if we keep this up. So yeah...i'd really like this to be the last line in this discussion, the last thing i say about it. So...let's virtually shake hands and call it a day. ;)

[Jaysin]

I try to make it the last thing, but you always have to start answering in that tone. Don0t justify your actions with "it's my opinion", cause you do have the right to have one, but you don't need to say that you disagree with me in that tone. I've been doing a whole lot of an effort not to disrespect you. And with that tone...it hasn't been easy. :D So...when in comes to the whole Cena thing...and the rest of the debate...let's agree in disagee. Ok? Cause seriously, i have nothing against you, and the only thing getting ridiculous here will be us if we keep this up. So yeah...i'd really like this to be the last line in this discussion, the last thing i say about it. So...let's virtually shake hands and call it a day. ;)

You should watch the links I posted.

[shawn michaels 82]

You should watch the links I posted.

I will. I'll comment as soon as i finish watching them.

Edit: The whole X-Pac possibly not beeing owned by wwe is weird. They usually like to own all the names of their workers and steal their indentities and suck their souls and...oh well. :D

[lazorbeak]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKWA4kvq2Bc- John Cena vs Bryan Danielson from Velocity years ago. Good little match. I wish Cena still wrestled this style personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyqvP5nCsY&NR=1- John Cena vs Paul London from Velocity years ago. Seriously, I'm not a fan of Cena, but the guy is talented.

I did like him back in the day though. The face Cena just bores me and I wish he'd wrestle his older style

*edit*

Also, I miss the hell out of Ernest Miller

Just re-watched that Cena/Danielson match. Good for Cena and the agent for making Danielson look that strong as an unsigned talent. I mean he obviously had plenty of skill but Cena very easily could've no-sold him or otherwise treated him like a minor league guy.

[shawn michaels 82]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKWA4kvq2Bc- John Cena vs Bryan Danielson from Velocity years ago. Good little match. I wish Cena still wrestled this style personally.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kyqvP5nCsY&NR=1- John Cena vs Paul London from Velocity years ago. Seriously, I'm not a fan of Cena, but the guy is talented.

I did like him back in the day though. The face Cena just bores me and I wish he'd wrestle his older style

*edit*

Also, I miss the hell out of Ernest Miller

I also miss Ernest Miller. :D

About the matches...that was the first time i enjoyed a match by Cena in a loooong time. Especially the Danielson one. I enjoyed his selling better then his offense, but he's still not my cup of tea. But of course you didn't expect me to start liking the guy because of those mathces, i know. Part of my dislike towards him is the way he was shoved down my throat when i really enjoyed watching the E back in the day. And sadly i think that will never change. It's like a phobia, (not saying it is one, just giving an example) once it grows on you, you may never get rid of it. Besides, he's really not that good in the ring. Not to the extent to be called a great one. But i won't go there again, so the discussion doesn't start again. :D

Edit: Glad to announce that me and lazorbeak have reached good terms. :D

Edit: It's B squared...SQUAREEEEDDDD!!!! Don't know why...but i lmao with that. Was i the only one laughing with it?

[Nathers7]

Going by the Colt Cabana interview I posted who is punk's best friend. It genuinely looks like he might leave. Even after that superb promo. This would be a huge blow as Punk is arguably WWE's most talented superstar right now and WWE's roster is short on guys who are over as it is.

[Hive]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKWA4kvq2Bc- John Cena vs Bryan Danielson from Velocity years ago. Good little match. I wish Cena still wrestled this style personally.

Wow. Maybe it's just me, but... is that really considered to be a *good* match? Half of it is armbar variations and the other half, while certainly not being bad (but not spectacular in any way), is pretty much Danielson's work. I did enjoy Cena as a heel though, first time I ever saw him in such a capacity. And much more awesome wrestling gear he had back then... I mean, yellow pants? Pure gold. :D

[shawn michaels 82]

Going by the Colt Cabana interview I posted who is punk's best friend. It genuinely looks like he might leave. Even after that superb promo. This would be a huge blow as Punk is arguably WWE's most talented superstar right now and WWE's roster is short on guys who are over as it is.

Wich makes confusion grow on my hand...why would vince let him shoot knowing that we will leave? That will only bring heat on vince as many will say and think: Vince...once again screwing up with a talented guy.

Besides, what's the point on creating controversy if CM Punk won't be there so the WWE can cash on the buzz genereated? I don't know...i don't buy it! I don't buy Punk leaving... Maybe i'm wrong...but i hope i'm not...:eek:

[Jaysin]

Wow. Maybe it's just me, but... is that really considered to be a *good* match? Half of it is armbar variations and the other half, while certainly not being bad (but not spectacular in any way), is pretty much Danielson's work. I did enjoy Cena as a heel though, first time I ever saw him in such a capacity. And much more awesome wrestling gear he had back then... I mean, yellow pants? Pure gold. :D

I wasn't meaning it's like a stellar performance or anything, just saying it showed Cena's versatility a bit more than his current stuff does.

[shawn michaels 82]

Wow. Maybe it's just me, but... is that really considered to be a *good* match? Half of it is armbar variations and the other half, while certainly not being bad (but not spectacular in any way), is pretty much Danielson's work. I did enjoy Cena as a heel though, first time I ever saw him in such a capacity. And much more awesome wrestling gear he had back then... I mean, yellow pants? Pure gold. :D

I agree, because the positive thing i saw in there was a better selling than than now a days. But still it was the first time in a looong time i enjoyed a Cena match. And yes, Danielson makes most of the good work. So i don't see that as "changing my mind" material, but i also said that before. Still, the guy clearly sucks much more as super Cena. That's a fact.

[Jaysin]

:eek:

I know this is the non TEW section, but I just started a 2002 game and WWF released John Cena from his developmental deal...TNA has a new potential star :p

[Jaysin]

I agree, because the positive thing i saw in there was a better selling than than now a days. But still it was the first time in a looong time i enjoyed a Cena match. And yes, Danielson makes most of the good work. So i don't see that as "changing my mind" material, but i also said that before. Still, the guy clearly sucks much more as super Cena. That's a fact.

No, its an opinion. Fact is something that can be proven. Opinion is what you believe.

[shawn michaels 82]

No, its an opinion. Fact is something that can be proven. Opinion is what you believe.

It was a matter of speaking. :D

[Linsolv]

Wich makes confusion grow on my hand...why would vince let him shoot knowing that we will leave? That will only bring heat on vince as many will say and think: Vince...once again screwing up with a talented guy.

Besides, what's the point on creating controversy if CM Punk won't be there so the WWE can cash on the buzz genereated? I don't know...i don't buy it! I don't buy Punk leaving... Maybe i'm wrong...but i hope i'm not...:eek:

If I don't miss my guess, IF he leaves then it will be the same concept as when Danielson left; he leaves, does some indie stuff, with the understanding that when he's ready he'll return. Plus, it adds a sort of legit confusion about the whole thing to have him actually doing one-night-only type shows in NJPW and ROH.

It worked with Danielson, at least in the sense that they convinced everyone his firing was legit, and when he came back it could've been big.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Wich makes confusion grow on my hand...why would vince let him shoot knowing that we will leave? That will only bring heat on vince as many will say and think: Vince...once again screwing up with a talented guy.

Besides, what's the point on creating controversy if CM Punk won't be there so the WWE can cash on the buzz genereated? I don't know...i don't buy it! I don't buy Punk leaving... Maybe i'm wrong...but i hope i'm not...:eek:

Punk will be back. There's no rush, the WWE can let him leave.. Punk's probably let them know he has no intention of going to TNA, of course ROH is doubtful but even there he must be making/promised good money in the WWE, and upon his return. I think Punker mostly has the intention of taking a well-deserved break.


As for Cena, I agree on certain points. Yes, he doesn't have as much natural talent as the cream of the crop, and I'd dare say for a while he was a tad overrated in the ring, half of his "great matches" I didn't really perceive as(except Cena/Umaga and Cena/HBK(at Mania... not the 1-hour fest). His psychology was still dreadful most of the time. However, what he took to get to where he is.. mostly Cena's doing. Not just the workrate but he's overwhemingly confident on the mic, enough to make ad-libbed promos on a consistent basis, according to Orton. Indeed, the merch selling isn't entirely Cena's doing either, what with WWE treating him like a walking billboard after all, milking it for all it's worth right now. All that said though, I still don't think a lot of people could fill Cena's shoes. You have to at least give him that.


As for my personal fantasy booking, my simple idea was to get The Rock involved rather than Vince(though of course Vince could pass around for a sec). Rock overhearing the comments, gets in between the two, possibly takes Cena's side reluctantly while Punk fires back about Rock himself leaving the business seven years ago, and getting in his face as to why. :D

[shawn michaels 82]

If I don't miss my guess, IF he leaves then it will be the same concept as when Danielson left; he leaves, does some indie stuff, with the understanding that when he's ready he'll return. Plus, it adds a sort of legit confusion about the whole thing to have him actually doing one-night-only type shows in NJPW and ROH.

It worked with Danielson, at least in the sense that they convinced everyone his firing was legit, and when he came back it could've been big.

True, but wasn't Daniel's release because of some choking he did with a cable or something? I don't even remember that well. Still, i see your point. THough i don't like the fact that punk will leave now that the storyline just got interesting.

Punk will be back. There's no rush, the WWE can let him leave.. Punk's probably let them know he has no intention of going to TNA, of course ROH is doubtful but even there he must be making/promised good money in the WWE, and upon his return. I think Punker mostly has the intention of taking a well-deserved break.


As for Cena, I agree on certain points. Yes, he doesn't have as much natural talent as the cream of the crop, and I'd dare say for a while he was a tad overrated in the ring, half of his "great matches" I didn't really perceive as(except Cena/Umaga and Cena/HBK(at Mania... not the 1-hour fest). His psychology was still dreadful most of the time. However, what he took to get to where he is.. mostly Cena's doing. Not just the workrate but he's overwhemingly confident on the mic, enough to make ad-libbed promos on a consistent basis, according to Orton. Indeed, the merch selling isn't entirely Cena's doing either, what with WWE treating him like a walking billboard after all, milking it for all it's worth right now. All that said though, I still don't think a lot of people could fill Cena's shoes. You have to at least give him that.


As for my personal fantasy booking, my simple idea was to get The Rock involved rather than Vince(though of course Vince could pass around for a sec). Rock overhearing the comments, gets in between the two, possibly takes Cena's side reluctantly while Punk fires back about Rock himself leaving the business seven years ago, and getting in his face as to why. :D

I know! What's the deal with that??? It was even considered PWI's match of the year!!! Not saying it was a bad match, but i really like the mania one better. Oh well. As for Cena, sure i can give him that much, but only if you give me as much as saying he's far from beeing irreplaceable. Nobody is, lets face it.

[Zeel1]

Another good SmackDown!.

For some reason, I liked the way the wrestlers came out without themes for those first couple of matches after Henry's attack. Kind of liked that part too, keeps on making impacts on the show even if he isn't getting into the main event.

Sin Cara/Christian was very solid, though it's a shame that they didn't mention the fact that Christian ended his undefeated streak.

Liked that Rhodes beat Ezekial, might mean he'll be going after the IC Title soon. For the last several months, I've kinda wanted him to be IC Champion.

Seems like we're building up for Christian/Sheamus/Orton for MITB, I'd be cool with that. Was actually the match I expected for Capitol Punishment.

[Teh_Showtime]

While Heath Slater is lacking in the charisma department, I feel that his ring work is underrated. He is a solid talent.

[ampulator]

While Heath Slater is lacking in the charisma department, I feel that his ring work is underrated. He is a solid talent.
His just that... solid. He's not going to have the worse match in the world with anyone, but he isn't exactly one that carry other workers, or has is well-versed in one style, or even exciting.

That being said, you could say that for a lot of workersi n the WWE these days.

[Teh_Showtime]

A lot of people crap on him though. I think he is well rounded, and could develop into a good wrestler.

[Linsolv]

I don't like his look and I don't like cruiserweights. So I crap on him. It's impolite but I'm on the internet and not being paid to be polite. So you get honest Lin instead of polite Lin.

E: I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't like... want him dead or something psycho like that. I just don't want to have to see him, and as it happens I don't. I can change the channel, I can take a leak, I can make a snack... I mean, keep him around, he seems to work hard, and a lot of people like flyers. I'm just not one of them.

[Zeel1]

I don't like his look and I don't like cruiserweights. So I crap on him. It's impolite but I'm on the internet and not being paid to be polite. So you get honest Lin instead of polite Lin.

E: I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't like... want him dead or something psycho like that. I just don't want to have to see him, and as it happens I don't. I can change the channel, I can take a leak, I can make a snack... I mean, keep him around, he seems to work hard, and a lot of people like flyers. I'm just not one of them.

...Are you mixing up Slater and Gabriel?

[Stennick]

only if you give me as much as saying he's far from beeing irreplaceable. Nobody is, lets face it.

It depends on what your version of "irreplaceable" is. Can the WWE find someone else that will make them as much money and give them as much great press as John Cena does? (Make a wish, Fiesta Bowl, Late Night Talk TV, etc.). No, there is no one that they have ready to go right now that could move into that position as face of the company. John has no proven history of drug problems, he's not got a single story of say defecating in someone's belongings, he's never implied in an interview that anyone has slept around. He's as clean as they come. There is nobody in the company that has his degree of success, his money making power and his ability to be the face of the company outside of the WWE. Nobody right now. Could they build someone up in a year and MAYBE that person has all of those tools? Sure, I highly doubt it and the percentages are against them but its possible. He would be sorely missed in those areas.

That being said would the WWE lose a ton of money and go bankrupt like they would have if say Bret Hart had walked out in 1995 or Shawn Michaels in 1996? No they are an established brand with a basic monopoly on professional wrestling (even if they don't market themselves as such). They would move on from losing John just as they would anyone else.

Although when most people say John can't be replaced they're talking merch sales, his clean cut image, his face of the franchise, and most importantly there is no one they could have face The Rock at Wrestlemania 28 that would garner near the interest good or bad that John Cena will. So I will not give anyone the "fact" that John Cena can be replaced. Randy Orton is their second biggest superstar and the guy has admited to drug over doses, he's had a slew of backstage incidents and he just blasted Kelly Kelly in an interview. Not too mention Randy leaving the Marines (I believe it was) and getting a dis honorable discharge. Things like that would be magnified as everything is with the WWE if he was forced to be the "John Cena of the WWE".

[milamber]

What if he came back and won the RR :eek:. He wouldnt go after Cena though or would he?

Cena v Rock v Punk at Wrestlemania 28!

[pauls07]

Cena v Rock v Punk at Wrestlemania 28!

Cena v Rock

Punk v Austin :)

[djthefunkchris]

The face almost looks photoshopped on to :eek:

Or maybe that somebody had shrunk Lex Luger. :)

On the John Cena image from when he was still a "bodybuilder", he has explained the reason his images always looks photoshopped (and they do).

He used a tanning lotion on his body, to help make him look more cut. Alot of bodybuilders do this or similar. He never put it on his face, so his face is pale/normal, while his body is all tan.

Tanning helps highlight your muscle's, helping with that ripped look. This can be achieved without using steriods, although I believe as someone else said that he probably had a supplement back then, that's not legal now-a-days. I believe that, because of the way he talks about them. He's never done anything Illegal, but .... there is always an added phrase in there that makes me believe he did use something that might have been legal at the time he used it, but is not now. I think he means that to come out, for some reason. Kind of like when the Benoit thing happened, all the other wrestler's were completely sure Benoit was murdered, etc... but when the camera was on Cena, all he said was "I didn't know the guy as well as alot of people did, but let me just say this. Hold off thinking anything till all the facts come in. Be carefull with this one." It was something similar, that made me feel uneasy, and to this day I believe he felt Benoit did it before anyone else even thought that way.

Back to bodybuilding.... What alot of bodybuilder's do (and most are steriod user's, I'm just giving the information I know as fact), is bulk up on the off season (Carb up was what we used to call it). Sometimes they might even look a little fat, or at least chunky. The workouts are with heavy weights, shorter repititions, and less sets. This makes your muscle's grow faster. At a certain point, they begin to get ready for the competition. They start eating a totally different diet, almost a total non-fat diet/kind of. The intention is to lose all the fat to highlight the muscle growth. The more fat you get rid of, the more ripped you become. At the same time, the workouts change to lighter weights, more reps, and more sets. Cardio is even used to help get rid of the fat.

If you work at it, anyone can have a similar look, but it takes alot of dedication, and sometimes years of training (depending on your body). I knew guys I played sports with that never touched steroids, that could get ripped and bulk up easily, and seen other's that worked alot hard (at least it seemed like it), and couldn't get 1/10th of the results. This is due to genetic variations, something you can't really controll. This is also why alot of guys started using steroids, that wrestle. They don't just do it for muscle gain, some used them for weight gain period. Just so they could look bigger, because you know some people can eat and eat, and not gain... other's can watch them eat, and gain 10 pounds, lol.

[Kovic]

Christian vs. Sin cara match before the break:

Christian: I can't see with these lights!

Priceless

[Hive]

I don't like Cena as a performer. I think he's extremely bland in the ring and I hate his gimmick with a passion. And don't get me started on his wrestling attire... I'm really not into rap or hip hop or whatever.

But... I achnowledge his insane value to the company. Could someone else in the wrestling world today become as over with the fans given the same push? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But what I am 100 % sure of is that noone else could be as important to the company as Cena is. That many is a true company man who breathes WWE. He's hard-working, devoted, loyal, easy-going, stays out of trouble with the law, does no drugs (that we've heard of), does tons of charity and other great PR for WWE... I imagine that he's any promoter's dream.

If I were Vince, and had to choose between pushing Cena and someone who is perhaps more talented as a wrestler but has more risque attached (like Orton, whom I actually like a great deal), I too would choose Cena. It makes the most financial sense.

[Fantabulous]

True, but wasn't Daniel's release because of some choking he did with a cable or something? I don't even remember that well.
Daniel's release was because he choked Justin Roberts with his tie. As I recall, someone connected to Mattel or one of the sponsors complained about it, considering it too graphic for the product they were associated with. Daniel really was fired, but it was the similar deal to when they released Jamie Noble over the steroid problem; as long as he stayed out of TNA, he'd be brought back when the heat died down.

Cena can be replaced in that they can always find someone else they can get behind and find a way, and have the patience, to make into a super over babyface who is the face of the company. But there is a lot that Cena does, Make a Wish, etc, that requires more than just the company getting behind them, that adds to the package that a lot of guys would crack under the pressure of doing.

[milamber]

Christian vs. Sin cara match before the break:

Christian: I can't see with these lights!

Priceless

That was funny. Good to see Rhodes' push continue. Solid SD again. I'm enjoying WWE a lot this year -- they seem to be getting their act together.

[eayragt]

I feel really sorry for CM Punk. ECW Champion, Intercontinental Champion, Tag Team Champion, 3 time World Heavyweight Champion, 2 time Money in the Bank winner, 3 year running Slammy award winner, staple in the Main Event for the best part of the last few years... he's been really hard done by.

That isn't a dig at Punk, that's a counterpoint to all the people arguing how badly he's been treated. Sure, he's lost a lot for a Main Eventer (memorably in his feuds vs Mysterio, Big Show and Randy Orton), but he's being booked better than 90% of the roster. He's hardly a missed opportunity.

[shawn michaels 82]

I don't like Cena as a performer. I think he's extremely bland in the ring and I hate his gimmick with a passion. And don't get me started on his wrestling attire... I'm really not into rap or hip hop or whatever.

But... I achnowledge his insane value to the company. Could someone else in the wrestling world today become as over with the fans given the same push? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. But what I am 100 % sure of is that noone else could be as important to the company as Cena is. That many is a true company man who breathes WWE. He's hard-working, devoted, loyal, easy-going, stays out of trouble with the law, does no drugs (that we've heard of), does tons of charity and other great PR for WWE... I imagine that he's any promoter's dream.

If I were Vince, and had to choose between pushing Cena and someone who is perhaps more talented as a wrestler but has more risque attached (like Orton, whom I actually like a great deal), I too would choose Cena. It makes the most financial sense.

With this can totally agree. Except the drugs part. Because, and i can be wrong, a friend of mine, who really marks for cena, told me we once admited (not directly, but underlying) in some way to have done steroids before (i believe it were steroids he said) on a monday night raw. So, this was told to me by a guy who really likes cena, i didn't hear it. As isaid, i may be wrong. Is english isn't thag godd, so he might have missunderstood something that Cena said. Still, i can agree with what was said. Not with Stennicks claim of him beeing irreplaceable and i'll explain why.

Let's get out of the Cena realm and look at things from a different point of view. Leonel Messi is the world's greatest football player. (Soccer) Would Barcelona replace him easily if he decided to leave? Nope. Is there someone ready to take his place if he left now? Sure, Barcelona has some fine thecnician players, such as Iniesta, for example. Of course they are no messi, granted that much. Could there be someone in this world to be equal or better then Messi? Sure, but they may not have been discovered yet, or may not have grown as players, or may not have enough playing time to be noticed. (The same as not beeing pushed.) So...could John Cena be replaced just like that if he left now? Sure, maybe not, i'll agree on that one, (we can't be sure, as we don't know the capabilities and personalitiesof all the wwe workers, including developlent) it would be very hard or amlost impossible to replace him instantly. But not impossible. And i'm sure that there are more guys with his type of attitude in this world. Maybe they remain undiscovered, or never signed with the E for some reason. One thing is for sure, the bigger you get, the harder it remains to stay clean and have a good attitude.Maybe that's why it will be harder to find a replacement for Cena. Because Vince tends to chose the "big guys" (not literally giants, but i already explained what i mean by big) and those are rarely clean in wrestling. At least so it seams. Sure, none big guys aren't that clean either. But you get my point. No one is irreplaceable. There's always someone who can do as much or more than us. But sure, i admit it would be hard to replace him in a short time, but in a long term it could be done. Besides, you only get big if you get pushed to be big, no matter how good you are.

Daniel's release was because he choked Justin Roberts with his tie. As I recall, someone connected to Mattel or one of the sponsors complained about it, considering it too graphic for the product they were associated with. Daniel really was fired, but it was the similar deal to when they released Jamie Noble over the steroid problem; as long as he stayed out of TNA, he'd be brought back when the heat died down.

Cena can be replaced in that they can always find someone else they can get behind and find a way, and have the patience, to make into a super over babyface who is the face of the company. But there is a lot that Cena does, Make a Wish, etc, that requires more than just the company getting behind them, that adds to the package that a lot of guys would crack under the pressure of doing.

True, but we can't assume he's the only guy in the wold that can do it. But sure, replacing him wouldn't be made in days.

As for Punk...i sure hope he's not going the same way as Danielson. I'd rather see him staying now, while the angle is hot, so he can get more over and have his chance to "shine."

[Nathers7]

I feel really sorry for CM Punk. ECW Champion, Intercontinental Champion, Tag Team Champion, 3 time World Heavyweight Champion, 2 time Money in the Bank winner, 3 year running Slammy award winner, staple in the Main Event for the best part of the last few years... he's been really hard done by.

That isn't a dig at Punk, that's a counterpoint to all the people arguing how badly he's been treated. Sure, he's lost a lot for a Main Eventer (memorably in his feuds vs Mysterio, Big Show and Randy Orton), but he's being booked better than 90% of the roster. He's hardly a missed opportunity.

Since when did any of the stuff in bold matter? Him being dominated by Orton in his feud with him hardly improved the situation. Add in the fact that he has lost the vast majority of his matches on PPV in the past couple of years. Colt Cabana would hardly randomly come out and say he is being mistreated if he wasn't. I mean what would be the point? Punk hasn't been in a show carrying feud since 2009 as far as I recall.

[eayragt]

Since when did any of the stuff in bold matter? Him being dominated by Orton in his feud with him hardly improved the situation.

It doesn't, but there's only so much you can hold one of the top 2 titles, and this is an indication of what else he's been doing. And I was as frustrated as anyone else by his third straight ppv loss to Orton, but it hasn't hurt Punk in the slightest as he's still involved in the hottest storyline going.

Sure, he hasn't been treated like Cena, Orton, Rock, Austin, Taker, HBK and Triple H... but that's about it, he's been treated as well or better than everyone else in the last 6 years. Although someone will let me know who I've missed from that list, but I wouldn't say he's been treated any worse than Kane, Big Show, Mysterio or Jeff Hardy. Maybe Edge, yes, he probably should also be on the list.

[Teh_Showtime]

It doesnt matter about being in high profile feuds. He always comes out looking like crap.

Before Capitol punishment he had not won on PPV over a year. This includes multi month feuds.

[Jaysin]

What makes no sense to me about Orton face feuds is, he beats the heels cleanly time and time again and the heels don't ever get anywhere in the feud besides beating him down randomly.

Isn't it supposed to be the heel cheats to beat the face for the duration of the feud and the blow off is the face finally gets the win in the last match?

That really irritates me. Plus, there's the whole thing of Orton being a face in the first place. He injured Punk to take him out of the Scramble match at Unforgiven, yet he's the good guy when Punk wants retribution?

[Hive]

What makes no sense to me about Orton face feuds is, he beats the heels cleanly time and time again and the heels don't ever get anywhere in the feud besides beating him down randomly.

Isn't it supposed to be the heel cheats to beat the face for the duration of the feud and the blow off is the face finally gets the win in the last match?

That really irritates me. Plus, there's the whole thing of Orton being a face in the first place. He injured Punk to take him out of the Scramble match at Unforgiven, yet he's the good guy when Punk wants retribution?

What annoys me about that feud was that Orton single-handedly not only beat Punk but an entire stable of evil heels. Pretty hard to take them serious as dangerous heels when they're outfought being 4 or 5 to 1.

[shawn michaels 82]

What makes no sense to me about Orton face feuds is, he beats the heels cleanly time and time again and the heels don't ever get anywhere in the feud besides beating him down randomly.

Isn't it supposed to be the heel cheats to beat the face for the duration of the feud and the blow off is the face finally gets the win in the last match?

That really irritates me. Plus, there's the whole thing of Orton being a face in the first place. He injured Punk to take him out of the Scramble match at Unforgiven, yet he's the good guy when Punk wants retribution?

Actually no. That's just a way to book it. Of course it would make much more sense to book it as they book it, if Punk came out victorious in the last match, like orton did to hbk when shawn superkicked him for almost two months on a row. And sure, the heel cheating and making the face endure hell to lose the retribution final match is classic booking, but it's not the only way to go. That was actually one of the early things that EWR thought to the beginners:The principles of booking a feud are doing it even or letting the advantadge go largely to one of the sides, regardless of dispositions. This opens up a bunch of secondary options, but that's another story, for another post.)
So if they want to build up Orton at a Cena Level, or close to him in the hierarchy, than it makes sense that they book it this way. I do it with some starts i want to push, at the expense of guys i want to "depush".

Sure, doesn't mean i like what they do to Punk, but i understand where they go with it. The fact is that if they wanted to feed orton with someone, they could at least chose another worker...oh well. Maybe now, with all the buzz, we'll see Punk at a higher level...if he comes back while there's still a buzz...of if he doesn't leave period. I'd truly like the E to surprise me with this whole punk deal, but they will probably find a way to screw it up.

[Jaysin]

Actually no. That's just a way to book it. Of course it would make much more sense to book it as they book it, if Punk came out victorious in the last match, like orton did to hbk when shawn superkicked him for almost two months on a row. And sure, the heel cheating and making the face endure hell to lose the retribution final match is classic booking, but it's not the only way to go. That was actually one of the early things that EWR thought to the beginners:The principles of booking a feud are doing it even or letting the advantadge go largely to one of the sides, regardless of dispositions. This opens up a bunch of secondary options, but that's another story, for another post.)
So if they want to build up Orton at a Cena Level, or close to him in the hierarchy, than it makes sense that they book it this way. I do it with some starts i want to push, at the expense of guys i want to "depush".

Sure, doesn't mean i like what they do to Punk, but i understand where they go with it. The fact is that if they wanted to feed orton with someone, they could at least chose another worker...oh well. Maybe now, with all the buzz, we'll see Punk at a higher level...if he comes back while there's still a buzz...of if he doesn't leave period. I'd truly like the E to surprise me with this whole punk deal, but they will probably find a way to screw it up.

They didn't do it just to Punk though, they're doing it to Christian as well.

[Nathers7]

They didn't do it just to Punk though, they're doing it to Christian as well.

And to Barrett before that. Orton beat him 3 times in a row with no Barrett victory at any point in the feud.

[Linsolv]

...Are you mixing up Slater and Gabriel?

In a sense. I know Gabriel is a true-blue died-in-the-wool high flyer, where I think of Slater as... sorta like a Japanese Junior. Which for the most part I lump in with the flying wrestling styles. I don't know if I am accurately describing him but I also don't like his stupid hair and his stupid voice, so I don't really feel like he deserves a fair shake. I just don't like him. It's rude and I try to just keep my thoughts to myself.

[snip] Cena can be replaced in that they can always find someone else they can get behind and find a way, and have the patience, to make into a super over babyface who is the face of the company. But there is a lot that Cena does, Make a Wish, etc, that requires more than just the company getting behind them, that adds to the package that a lot of guys would crack under the pressure of doing.

Now that I would agree with 100%, and honestly it's another kinda frustrating thing about Cena, lol. He's a geniunely nice guy who works super hard. Why is it that his hard work pays off, and people like him? I work hard and get nowhere, and nobody likes me. But in all seriousness Cena is a gift to WWE as far as his back-stage activities with charity and PR events and things of that nature. It's like the guy never gets tired.

[shawn michaels 82]

They didn't do it just to Punk though, they're doing it to Christian as well.

So true! And i hate them for that. Christian is on my list of favourites, so i really dislike that. Especially since some WWE guys, like Jim Ross, implied that his 5 day title reign was not part of burying him, or miss treating him as always, but instead part of something bigger. Really?? After 3 losses with orton...is anyone still taking him that seriously as a title contender?? That turn could have been great! When i saw him losing the title after 5 days, i actually thought they were going to make something right, for a change... I mean...the heel turn coming out of it had a lot of potential.... and now it's gone. Oh well...

[Zeel1]

In a sense. I know Gabriel is a true-blue died-in-the-wool high flyer, where I think of Slater as... sorta like a Japanese Junior. Which for the most part I lump in with the flying wrestling styles. I don't know if I am accurately describing him but I also don't like his stupid hair and his stupid voice, so I don't really feel like he deserves a fair shake. I just don't like him. It's rude and I try to just keep my thoughts to myself.

Hm. Dunno, I just never really thought of Slater as a high flier, so that post kinda confused me... :p But then, I stopped watching shortly before the Nexus first popped up and didn't come back until the RR, so maybe I just missed that side of him.

I agree that his voice is a little goofy, but I actually kind of like that. His character's kinda goofy too, so it suits him. :p

There is something about his face, though... I can't really pinpoint it, but he looks really weird to me. Maybe it depends on the angle, but sometimes when I look at him, his face looks... misshapen. Like his forehead sticks out a little too much, or something, I don't know.

[sebsy]

Really not sure how you can say they've dropped the ball on the whole Christian thing. Sure, I was pissed when he lost the title 5 days after winning it but I'm happy enough with how things have gone since then. He is still in the main event a few months later on his own merits rather than off the whole Edge retirement angle and I believe that he is getting the title again soon enough. Even if he doesn't he is in a much better position now than say 6 months ago. I like the way the whole story has developed so far and am looking forward to where it is heading.

[sebsy]

Hm. Dunno, I just never really thought of Slater as a high flier, so that post kinda confused me... :p But then, I stopped watching shortly before the Nexus first popped up and didn't come back until the RR, so maybe I just missed that side of him.

I agree that his voice is a little goofy, but I actually kind of like that. His character's kinda goofy too, so it suits him. :p

There is something about his face, though... I can't really pinpoint it, but he looks really weird to me. Maybe it depends on the angle, but sometimes when I look at him, his face looks... misshapen. Like his forehead sticks out a little too much, or something, I don't know.

Rocky Dennis?

[Mr Rager]

I dislike Heath Slater, and I have done since he first debuted in NXT. I don't know why. It's largely irrational. I just do.

[djthefunkchris]

IMO, Heath Slater has no bussiness being a Heel. He doesn't have the talent for it, can't pull it off realistically, and well.... It's obvious he is a good guy that would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it, in real life.

Turn him face, he might go a little farther, but again, it's going to be hard to get past that look. He just looks like someone I wouldn't bet winning anything, lol.

I don't dislike him though.

[shawn michaels 82]

Really not sure how you can say they've dropped the ball on the whole Christian thing. Sure, I was pissed when he lost the title 5 days after winning it but I'm happy enough with how things have gone since then. He is still in the main event a few months later on his own merits rather than off the whole Edge retirement angle and I believe that he is getting the title again soon enough. Even if he doesn't he is in a much better position now than say 6 months ago. I like the way the whole story has developed so far and am looking forward to where it is heading.


I always get suspicious of the E nowadays. Besides they're doing him the same thing they did to punk and Barrett. Feeding him to Orton. How good can that be in the long run?

[sebsy]

Because this storyline has not fully played out yet and for all we know Christian will be champion again by Summerslam.

Just assuming he is going to end up the same way as Punk/Barrett etc is a bit foolish. Just wait and see what happens first, and if it ends with Christian having been completely dominated like Punk etc then by all means berate the way the way it has played out.

[shawn michaels 82]

Because this storyline has not fully played out yet and for all we know Christian will be champion again by Summerslam.

Just assuming he is going to end up the same way as Punk/Barrett etc is a bit foolish. Just wait and see what happens first, and if it ends with Christian having been completely dominated like Punk etc then by all means berate the way the way it has played out.

No one's berating. :D I'm assuming. I'd certainly love to be wrong. But i'm just talking about my impressions, doesn't mean it's a done deal. I sure as hell hope not. I too have the hopes of seeing him reign by summerslam. Let's wait and see. But nothing prevents us from discussing it.

[Fantabulous]

Because this storyline has not fully played out yet and for all we know Christian will be champion again by Summerslam.

Just assuming he is going to end up the same way as Punk/Barrett etc is a bit foolish. Just wait and see what happens first, and if it ends with Christian having been completely dominated like Punk etc then by all means berate the way the way it has played out.

A champion that would mean nothing having been beaten on three or four consecutive main event-level PPV matches and treated in a comically bad fashion by the GM of his brand.

I love the "wait and see where it goes" line because it gets trotted out every time WWE book a feud like this. Which is a lot, which is exactly why people are complaining, because they know how it usually goes and they're not happy with that.

[shawn michaels 82]

A champion that would mean nothing having been beaten on three or four consecutive main event-level PPV matches and treated in a comically bad fashion by the GM of his brand.

I love the "wait and see where it goes" line because it gets trotted out every time WWE book a feud like this. Which is a lot, which is exactly why people are complaining, because they know how it usually goes and they're not happy with that.

This.

[eayragt]

I'd be massively surprised if Christian beat Randy Orton. I'm a big Christian fan (I'm an even bigger Punk fan), but in WWE as it is today Christian should not be beating Orton. I believe the aim of this feud was to try and make sure Christian doesn't slip back into the midcard after losing the title. If that happens, WWE have fulfilled there aim.

I think it's wrong to accuse the WWE of dropping the ball every time they build up a new challenger well and tehn don't give them the title. There's a lot of difference between being a legitimate title threat and World Heavyweight / WWE Champion. Christian is the former, he doesn't have to be the latter.

[Teh_Showtime]

How can you view him as a serious challenger if every week Orton talks about how hw will beat Christian and then he does it, cleanly over and over again. Sure the dumb refs might help, but really?

[Hive]

Really not sure how you can say they've dropped the ball on the whole Christian thing. Sure, I was pissed when he lost the title 5 days after winning it but I'm happy enough with how things have gone since then. He is still in the main event a few months later on his own merits rather than off the whole Edge retirement angle and I believe that he is getting the title again soon enough. Even if he doesn't he is in a much better position now than say 6 months ago. I like the way the whole story has developed so far and am looking forward to where it is heading.

Yeah I agree, Christian is in a better place now than he has been in years in WWE. Maybe even his best position there ever. When else has he been consistently main eventing and feuding with a world title holder who also happens to be one of their current top guys?

[eayragt]

How can you view him as a serious challenger if every week Orton talks about how hw will beat Christian and then he does it, cleanly over and over again. Sure the dumb refs might help, but really?

After he loses again he wont be. But he has been for a few months, and he could be again in the future (rather than a forever midcarder like he was before he got injured).

[sebsy]

To my recollection Christian has lost 3 title matches so far.

Match 1: The first defense 5 days after winning it: Was a really good match, both getting in even offense won by a RKO out of the blue.

Match 2: Over The Limit. Again a very good match, won again cleanly although could have gone either way.

Match 3: Capitol Punishment. Orton again pins Christian after an RKO but has a legitimate complaint as his foot was well under the rope.

Not really sure how he has been made to look a joke. He has shown he can hang in the main event and perform more than adequately. The wait and see line as you call it is more than relevant here as the story clearly has a good bit left to be told. Yes WWE get it wrong more than right, but that doesn't mean it is going to happen here. It might and it might not. If it does end simply as him being buried half a dozen times then by all means I will agree on the point but not until it's over.

As for him being treated in a bad fashion by the GM. Again I don't see it other than your typical 'gm makes the right and fair call but the heel sees it from a different perspective and feels he has been wrong done by him and the fans' kind of way. I'm certainly not 'trotting out' an old line for the sake of it, I would just rather wait and see what happens rather than jump on something for what people generally believe is going to happen.

[Linsolv]

To my recollection Christian has lost 3 title matches so far.

Match 1: The first defense 5 days after winning it: Was a really good match, both getting in even offense won by a RKO out of the blue.

Match 2: Over The Limit. Again a very good match, won again cleanly although could have gone either way.

Match 3: Capitol Punishment. Orton again pins Christian after an RKO but has a legitimate complaint as his foot was well under the rope.

Not really sure how he has been made to look a joke. He has shown he can hang in the main event and perform more than adequately. The wait and see line as you call it is more than relevant here as the story clearly has a good bit left to be told. Yes WWE get it wrong more than right, but that doesn't mean it is going to happen here. It might and it might not. If it does end simply as him being buried half a dozen times then by all means I will agree on the point but not until it's over.

Because in the WWE, it's not like in MMA. The better man ALWAYS wins, if the finish is clean. The difference is magnified a lot. If you're always losing clean it means you're BAD. Not "unlucky." You might not see it that way, but that's the way that the company has been trying to condition you to see it, and I'm willing to go with them on it if that's the lesson they want to teach.

Having 3 clean losses in a row means you're a chump, not a victim of circumstance.

[milamber]

What makes no sense to me about Orton face feuds is, he beats the heels cleanly time and time again and the heels don't ever get anywhere in the feud besides beating him down randomly.

I didn't like Orton beating Punk so many times (and RKOing every heel who annoyed him) either but I can see why they did it timing-wise. They were building Orton up to be as strong as Cena before his draft to Smackdown. Thank goodness Punk has come out of it okay. And this feud with Cena really is the best push Punk could ever hope for. He's getting massive heat and pop.

[milamber]

They didn't do it just to Punk though, they're doing it to Christian as well.

Again, I understand this. At first I was p***ed when Orton took the title off Christian. But it cemented Orton as top dog on SD, gave Christian a heel turn with an interesting storyline where he's actually being hard done by, providing him with motive. Plus, they've had some good matches.

But they have to make it a triple threat match with Sheamus at MITB because another Christian v Orton 1-on1 would be overkill. I hope they slap the belt on Sheamus and then have Christian beat Sheamus down the track.

As for Orton beating Barrett repeatedly. Well, I heard Vince wasn't happy with the Nexus storyline after the Cena feud ended so they de-pushed Barrett.

[milamber]

IMO, Heath Slater has no bussiness being a Heel. He doesn't have the talent for it, can't pull it off realistically, and well.... It's obvious he is a good guy that would give you the shirt off his back if you needed it, in real life.

Turn him face, he might go a little farther, but again, it's going to be hard to get past that look. He just looks like someone I wouldn't bet winning anything, lol.

I don't dislike him though.

Gabriel and Slater should both be faces but then they'd have to create a new heel tag team.

[Jaysin]

WWE should just abandon tag teams completely if they're not going to do it right...

Aren't the Uso's the only real tag team in the company? Unless you include Slater and Gabriel which they come across as two singles wrestlers thrown together.

[Teh_Showtime]

they failed HARD when they broke up the Hart Dynasty. It's not like there aren't good teams on the roster though. Hawkins and Ryder could team up again, Nexus, Slater/Gabriel, Usos, bring up Husky Harris' brother from FCW so they can team again. Steamboat and Seth Rollins too.

The potential is there, they just don't use it.

[DaMegaFish]

Having 2 clean losses in a row means you're a chump, not a victim of circumstance.

Fixed that for you. A match ending that has been made out as a bad call isn't a clean loss.

Also, as said before, the other matches he looked very much like a threat in and there is no way you can project him as being weak. When you lose to a flash move like the RKO in a very competitive match, it doesn't take away your heat right away. When you lose the second time in a competitive match, you have to be careful, because too many more times will start to make him look like he is unworthy. The third time however, he had the reason he lost as the foot under the rope was called incorrectly which leaves him looking fine after the match. If Christian loses a possible 3 way, then he still looks fine because he can claim he never got his one on one chance like he should have after being screwed.

He'll be fine.

[Jaysin]

Primo is still signed to WWE right? How come he's able to work WWC dates?

[Teh_Showtime]

I know that they (Him and Carlito, maybe even Orlando too) have been working for WWC sometimes over the past few years while on contract. I guess they allot them to do it

[Gabbo]

they failed HARD when they broke up the Hart Dynasty. It's not like there aren't good teams on the roster though. Hawkins and Ryder could team up again, Nexus, Slater/Gabriel, Usos, bring up Husky Harris' brother from FCW so they can team again. Steamboat and Seth Rollins too.

The potential is there, they just don't use it.

They aren't good tag teams though. They may have a gimmick what lends itself to a tag team but as far as wrestling goes they leave alot to be desired. Tag wrestling is completely different from singles wrestling. So putting two singles guys together doesn't mean you have a good tag team. No-one has any chemistry. When was the last time a tag-team had a joint finisher? How often do you see double team moves and even when you do it's a generic suplex or whatever.

These teams need a while to develop and grow together, a promise of time to work on moves and steps. With the rapid turnover of literally weeks to months (if they're lucky) how can any two guys develop chemistry and a moveset that lends itself to tag team wrestling?

Not to mention the fact that the psychology is completely different to singles wrestling.

Agree with whoever said, they may as well suspend the division if they aren't going to do it properly.

[Hive]

Proper tag team wrestling is a forgotten art in WWE. :(

[Fantabulous]

Because in the WWE, it's not like in MMA. The better man ALWAYS wins, if the finish is clean. The difference is magnified a lot. If you're always losing clean it means you're BAD. Not "unlucky." You might not see it that way, but that's the way that the company has been trying to condition you to see it, and I'm willing to go with them on it if that's the lesson they want to teach.

Having 3 clean losses in a row means you're a chump, not a victim of circumstance.

Christian has also been treated as a joke by the supposed babyface-GM. He had a legitimate complaint on losing the third match because his foot was under the ropes. Logically, he should get a rematch but no, the GM makes him jump through hoops to get it. Then, on Raw, Christian pins Orton clean. He beats the World Heavyweight Champion right in the middle. Again, logically he should get a title match because he PINNED THE CHAMPION. Once again, though, the babyface GM makes him jump through more hopes to get a title match he rightfully deserves. Not only does this make the GM come off as either a prick or a clueless idiot without the first grasp of logic, but you're booking THE HEEL of the feud like he's a wronged BABYFACE.

There's also the small matter that you're making a clean win over the champion mean nothing when achieving such a feat no longer means a title shot but instead it gets you a match where you have to beat contenders to get a shot at the champion you JUST PINNED. If you're going to beat your champion, clean no less, it should lead to a title match so that it gives the people the idea that beating the champion actually means something tangible. That beating the champion gets you a title match so if it happens in the future, they know it's something big. Here, all it means is the babyface GM just makes you jump through more hoops to get a title shot most people think you've already earned.

[sheepy]

The problem for the WWE tag teams is that to build new tag teams you need the established teams to put them up against of which there are exactly 0 at the moment.

It's hard to imagine if there is anyway the WWE could build a successful tag division in under 5 years max. You can call up X, Y and Z but as good as they may be, the fans just won't care.

The only hope for the WWE would be if they signed Beer Money / MCMG / Dudleys and made a big deal out of their time in TNA (not gonna happen) but at least that way you're establishing a dominant tag team. You'd need to put them over someone big (BOD might be decent candidates) to really establish them but it could be done.

The problem you've then got is where do you go with them afterwards? You're trying to establish them as the face of your division but you also need to build new teams so you can't put the less established teams over without destroying your new faces of the division. Flip side, you can't have them dominated the next team you're trying to bring up or they seem like jokes.

I honestly don't see any easy options for the WWE in building tag teams again. Maybe when trips takes over they may (see the start of his career for launching him) but I wouldn't hold my breath.

[shawn michaels 82]

Again, I understand this. At first I was p***ed when Orton took the title off Christian. But it cemented Orton as top dog on SD, gave Christian a heel turn with an interesting storyline where he's actually being hard done by, providing him with motive. Plus, they've had some good matches.

But they have to make it a triple threat match with Sheamus at MITB because another Christian v Orton 1-on1 would be overkill. I hope they slap the belt on Sheamus and then have Christian beat Sheamus down the track.

As for Orton beating Barrett repeatedly. Well, I heard Vince wasn't happy with the Nexus storyline after the Cena feud ended so they de-pushed Barrett.

Yeah, i read that somewhere too. Wich makes me think that the main purpose ot creating them in the first place was getting Cena (even more) over. No Cena in the storyline, no use for the nexus. Classic Vinnie Mac booking in the last years.

[Gabbo]

The problem for the WWE tag teams is that to build new tag teams you need the established teams to put them up against of which there are exactly 0 at the moment.


That's not a problem at all. You build 5 or 6 real teams that can beat each other. You build one team to be the best, even if they're midcards guys put them against Cena and Orton and have them win. Put over the fact that a real tag-team with real chemistry can beat two singles guys forced together. That's how you get a tag-team over, by putting the idea of a tag-team over first.

Then you have one properly established tag team. The argument of 'where do you go next' is also invalid. Where do you go next with Cena? You keep coming up with new and interesting ways to keep him relevant - so do the same with tag teams. Treat them as the different division that they are. Not a rung on the climb up a singles ladder. Then you end up with the lifelong tag teams that you had in before 1992.

Building it as a separate division also gives it prestige and people will want to form tag teams. Less talented guys will realise they can reach the top by being in a good solid team. Now they can't, because tag teams are only used to keep guys relevant before the WWE pushes the trigger on a singles push.

The entire system is bull**** and it won't get sorted unless someone really looks at it and gives a damn about rectifying it.

[Hive]

That's not a problem at all. You build 5 or 6 real teams that can beat each other. You build one team to be the best, even if they're midcards guys put them against Cena and Orton and have them win. Put over the fact that a real tag-team with real chemistry can beat two singles guys forced together. That's how you get a tag-team over, by putting the idea of a tag-team over first.

Then you have one properly established tag team. The argument of 'where do you go next' is also invalid. Where do you go next with Cena? You keep coming up with new and interesting ways to keep him relevant - so do the same with tag teams. Treat them as the different division that they are. Not a rung on the climb up a singles ladder. Then you end up with the lifelong tag teams that you had in before 1992.

Building it as a separate division also gives it prestige and people will want to form tag teams. Less talented guys will realise they can reach the top by being in a good solid team. Now they can't, because tag teams are only used to keep guys relevant before the WWE pushes the trigger on a singles push.

The entire system is bull**** and it won't get sorted unless someone really looks at it and gives a damn about rectifying it.

I completely agree.

These days, tag teams in WWE are basically used as an excuse for setting up a fed between two former partners later on - and most often, it's sooner rather than later.

Back in the old days we saw people get extremely over as a teag team with chemistry, matching attires and gimmicks and double team moves. Look at how huge The Road Warriors got, for example. Individually, they weren't really main eventers (though did occationally dabble into the main event for singles matches)... but together, they were at the very top of things.

I don't think a proper tag division would be that hard to get in WWE. Let's say they're able to sign The Motor City Machine Guns and Beer Money Inc from TNA and re-form The Hart Dynasty as well as keep The Usos around, the foundations would be there. They could throw Swagger and Danielson together in matching patriotic attire, having them work under a patriotic gimmick as hard-working American wrestlers who use skills to get ahead in life and live the American dream. Corny, I know, but USA never seems to get tired of patriotism. They could also try to put together a couple of big guys lacking charisma to make it on their own and throw some paint and funny costumes on them in a Road Warriors/Demolition/Ultimate Warrior gimmick amalgram. It worked before, it might work again. I would personally tune in to see this tag division on WWE television each week.

[cappyboy]

I completely agree.

These days, tag teams in WWE are basically used as an excuse for setting up a fed between two former partners later on - and most often, it's sooner rather than later.

Back in the old days we saw people get extremely over as a teag team with chemistry, matching attires and gimmicks and double team moves. Look at how huge The Road Warriors got, for example. Individually, they weren't really main eventers (though did occationally dabble into the main event for singles matches)... but together, they were at the very top of things.

I don't think a proper tag division would be that hard to get in WWE. Let's say they're able to sign The Motor City Machine Guns and Beer Money Inc from TNA and re-form The Hart Dynasty as well as keep The Usos around, the foundations would be there. They could throw Swagger and Danielson together in matching patriotic attire, having them work under a patriotic gimmick as hard-working American wrestlers who use skills to get ahead in life and live the American dream. Corny, I know, but USA never seems to get tired of patriotism. They could also try to put together a couple of big guys lacking charisma to make it on their own and throw some paint and funny costumes on them in a Road Warriors/Demolition/Ultimate Warrior gimmick amalgram. It worked before, it might work again. I would personally tune in to see this tag division on WWE television each week.

Very good post. And from the (mostly) outside looking in, I'll go you one better. Let's say you go with the Swagger/Danielson idea. Swagger's been best known as a heel. Danielson's career path has been mostly face. Getting them to being an established team wouldn't be that hard at all. You do a "if you can't beat em, join em" story to start the team. And then you start emphasizing what a tough atmosphere the E is for tag teams and how guys have had trouble staying together long term. Stack the deck against the idea of Swagger and Danielson gelling and then they do. Then do the Hart Dynasty or Hawkins/Ryder reunion that's been mentioned to give them a natural heel rivalry. Mix those Uso guys in. Then do your Road Warrior idea and fill in with the combos Showtime mentioned to allow them to gel by the experience. Have all that happen you might not need to bring anybody in from the outside at all.

Whenever I watch either WWE or TNA, I see essentially the same problem. Both clearly have the talent to produce quality programming and yet for different reasons they are both reticient to use it. The addition of a Beer Money or Team 3D might be nice as far as accelerating the process of getting the tag teams back to respectability. But I've seen nothing in my nibbling around the edges that suggests any adding on would be a necessity. Focus would be a much bigger issue than personnel.

[shawn michaels 82]

I completely agree.

These days, tag teams in WWE are basically used as an excuse for setting up a fed between two former partners later on - and most often, it's sooner rather than later.

Back in the old days we saw people get extremely over as a teag team with chemistry, matching attires and gimmicks and double team moves. Look at how huge The Road Warriors got, for example. Individually, they weren't really main eventers (though did occationally dabble into the main event for singles matches)... but together, they were at the very top of things.

I don't think a proper tag division would be that hard to get in WWE. Let's say they're able to sign The Motor City Machine Guns and Beer Money Inc from TNA and re-form The Hart Dynasty as well as keep The Usos around, the foundations would be there. They could throw Swagger and Danielson together in matching patriotic attire, having them work under a patriotic gimmick as hard-working American wrestlers who use skills to get ahead in life and live the American dream. Corny, I know, but USA never seems to get tired of patriotism. They could also try to put together a couple of big guys lacking charisma to make it on their own and throw some paint and funny costumes on them in a Road Warriors/Demolition/Ultimate Warrior gimmick amalgram. It worked before, it might work again. I would personally tune in to see this tag division on WWE television each week.

You would, i would, people in here would...but not the WWE fanbase? Why? Because most of their target audience is kids and those will hardly know what a good tag team mach is. They will just be accepting whatever the E throws at them. That's why some superstars make so much success, (and i don't mean just Cena) because people will accept what the E throws at them. And it makes sense. If everyone understood wrestling like most of the IWC, no one would be in the Arenas anymore. Most of us look at a show in a already mechanical way, where we already know what will happen and the whole purpose of what's happening. Not only because it's predictable, but because some things need to be done.
Example: If i see john Cena wrestling a heel midcarder, i know he's going to win. Because he's the main eventer, and the midcarder is just there to keep Cena looking strong. The possibilities of the midcarder winning are slim to none, and would only become a reality if they had some sort of storyline prepared for them. But the kids or the marks don't really know what's happening, they jsut cheer for theire favourite worker (the main eventer) to win. If they saw at as we did...they wouldn't even bother thinking on wrestling again. Most people don't want to know that much about something tey like to watch just for fun.

The point is: People like what they get, Vince keeps giving them the same until the ratings hit some low point one day, so that means building a tag division is not on his plans! Why would he bother? That would probably cost him some money, as he would have to increase his roster. He can easily make more money by continuing to focus on singles feuds. Too bad...i'd love to see a proper tag division.

Wasn't the MnM the last WWE tag team really portrayed as such? It's been a long time since then. Now they just throw two single workers with no simialr attires, no chemistry...no nothing.

[Hive]

Very good post. And from the (mostly) outside looking in, I'll go you one better. Let's say you go with the Swagger/Danielson idea. Swagger's been best known as a heel. Danielson's career path has been mostly face. Getting them to being an established team wouldn't be that hard at all. You do a "if you can't beat em, join em" story to start the team. And then you start emphasizing what a tough atmosphere the E is for tag teams and how guys have had trouble staying together long term. Stack the deck against the idea of Swagger and Danielson gelling and then they do.

Adding to this, they could have Swagger still cheat a bit behind Danielson's back with Danielson trying to make Swagger forsake his still somewhat heelish ways. Kinda like the storyline WCW did with Sting and Lex Luger in 1996. I think enough time has passed to repeat that concept.

[Jaysin]

Deuce n Domino
Cryme Tyme
The Highlanders
London & Kendrick
Hawkins & Ryder

Five legit tag teams in recent memory and they tried separating them all(except the Highlanders) and failed.

They even teased a feud between Cryme Tyme and Deuce and Domino(would have easily been a money feud based on the gimmicks alone) and then just never got around to it.

Hawkins & Ryder were the last team around that I can think of that used a double team move for a finisher(double Edgecution).

During the supplemental draft, WWE staff were saying that if you want tag team wrestling, write into WWE, bring signs to events, or even protest events haha

[Hive]

You would, i would, people in here would...but not the WWE fanbase? Why? Because most of their target audience is kids and those will hardly know what a good tag team mach is.

I completely disagree with you on this. Just because WWE hasn't showcased any proper tag team wrestling for many years doesn't necessarily mean that their audiences won't appreciate it. How do they know untill they try? And I don't quite get your logic here at all: you say that the fans just accept anything the WWE throws at them. Well... if WWE then began throwing proper tag team wrestling at them, why would they not accept that as well?

I'd also argue that tag team wrestling is GREAT for kids. When I started watching wrestling, I really really digged tag team wrestling. Seeing two guys with matching gimmicks throw double team moves all over the place was really awesome to me. But I don't blame kids of today for not digging WWE tag team wrestling, as it's just two random guys in ordinary wrestling trunks doing their singles stuff in the same ring. There's nothing special or exciting about it.

I honestly don't think it would be hard at all to get a proper tag division in WWE again. They easily have the manpower to do 10 tag teams if they want to, they have tons of guys never shown on tv and lots of promising talent sitting in FCW. And since there hasn't really been much tag team wrestling on tv for a very long time, they could easily just re-do succesful tag gimmicks from the 80's and 90's. Not all of them would work today, of course, but I'm sure that lots of the big ones would.

[Hive]

Deuce n Domino
Cryme Tyme
The Highlanders
London & Kendrick
Hawkins & Ryder

Five legit tag teams in recent memory and they tried separating them all(except the Highlanders) and failed.

Yeah that's my point: nowadays, WWE just uses tag teams as a lazy way to get two people feuding later on. They often break them up way too soon and the feuds rarely get enough heat to really take them places.

Also, it's outright sad that this list isn't longer. I mean, it goes how far back? 4 years?

[shawn michaels 82]

I completely disagree with you on this. Just because WWE hasn't showcased any proper tag team wrestling for many years doesn't necessarily mean that their audiences won't appreciate it. How do they know untill they try? And I don't quite get your logic here at all: you say that the fans just accept anything the WWE throws at them. Well... if WWE then began throwing proper tag team wrestling at them, why would they not accept that as well?

I'd also argue that tag team wrestling is GREAT for kids. When I started watching wrestling, I really really digged tag team wrestling. Seeing two guys with matching gimmicks throw double team moves all over the place was really awesome to me. But I don't blame kids of today for not digging WWE tag team wrestling, as it's just two random guys in ordinary wrestling trunks doing their singles stuff in the same ring. There's nothing special or exciting about it.

I honestly don't think it would be hard at all to get a proper tag division in WWE again. They easily have the manpower to do 10 tag teams if they want to, they have tons of guys never shown on tv and lots of promising talent sitting in FCW. And since there hasn't really been much tag team wrestling on tv for a very long time, they could easily just re-do succesful tag gimmicks from the 80's and 90's. Not all of them would work today, of course, but I'm sure that lots of the big ones would.

Oh sure, the audiences would aprecciate if the E decided to throw it at them. The point is that i don't see Vince doing it right now. The guy seems to prefer focusing on singles wrestling. At least so it seems, if we look at these last years. And building a decent tag division would always imply some changes in the company, wich would always imply investment. WHy would he invest if he already has a safe product that people buy?
So, sure...people would buy Tag team wrestling if vince promoted it...but (and i'm just assuming his lines of thought) i guess he thinks: "Why botter putting something out there that would imply roster changes, investment, and so on, when i alredy have a safe profitable product?

[Jaysin]

Deuce n Domino
Cryme Tyme
The Highlanders
London & Kendrick
Hawkins & Ryder

Five legit tag teams in recent memory and they tried separating them all(except the Highlanders) and failed.

They even teased a feud between Cryme Tyme and Deuce and Domino(would have easily been a money feud based on the gimmicks alone) and then just never got around to it.

Hawkins & Ryder were the last team around that I can think of that used a double team move for a finisher(double Edgecution).

During the supplemental draft, WWE staff were saying that if you want tag team wrestling, write into WWE, bring signs to events, or even protest events haha

I did forget Hart Dynasty, The Dude Busters, Gate Crashers, and the Usos.

[shawn michaels 82]

It's just like cruiserweights or any other division in the company (Even the Divas Divison,cause now it's no more than the top models wannabe division). They all died. Singles competitors and top models wannabe are all what's left... I wonder why? Simple. He chose to keep what sells more easily. (i assume) And he sees no point in changing things. That would require work/money that he's not willing to do/spend. Even if he didn't spend that much or nothing, he would still probably find it not worthy of doing. The man is practical. Can't take that away from him. Most of us may dislike his actions, but he made WWE the undisputed #1 promotion in the world...and although we're amid a financial crisis he's still turning profits. Or was, last time i heard. So...i might disagree with him, but i don't see him changing his ways...soon, if ever. Unless the audience demands it. He only complies to things when the audience really demands it (when his paying clients demand, the ones on tha go to the shows and buy products, not those online), when it's something hot (Edge/Matt, for example) when it's a easy money maker or when he thinks he's doing something never seen before in that little twisted mind of his. :D

[ShaunGBD]

Gate Crashers.

Who was in that? I don't remember them.

[sebsy]

I'm with Shaun. Not a clue who they are meant to be.

[Bull]

Curt Hawkings and Vance Archer(aka Lance Hoyt) I do belive

They where on Superstars for a while claming the where on 30 day contracts trying to impress management or something of that nature i think

[MichiganHero]

Who was in that? I don't remember them.

I'm with Shaun. Not a clue who they are meant to be.

Curt Hawkins and Vance Archer were known as The Gatecrashers for a while last year on Smackdown.

[sebsy]

:D They must have had like 1 match on Smackdown no wonder I don't remember them as a team. Must have done more run ins than matches.

[Hive]

Oh sure, the audiences would aprecciate if the E decided to throw it at them. The point is that i don't see Vince doing it right now. The guy seems to prefer focusing on singles wrestling. At least so it seems, if we look at these last years. And building a decent tag division would always imply some changes in the company, wich would always imply investment. WHy would he invest if he already has a safe product that people buy?
So, sure...people would buy Tag team wrestling if vince promoted it...but (and i'm just assuming his lines of thought) i guess he thinks: "Why botter putting something out there that would imply roster changes, investment, and so on, when i alredy have a safe profitable product?

Again, I must say I do not follow your logic. Why would a tag division be a huge investment? They already have the workers, and it's not like some face paint and matching attires would ruin them. You say it would require too many "changes in the company"... come on, I'm not asking them to re-structure their organization or drastically change their product or direction of the company. I think you're being a bit too dramatic here.

[cappyboy]

Adding to this, they could have Swagger still cheat a bit behind Danielson's back with Danielson trying to make Swagger forsake his still somewhat heelish ways. Kinda like the storyline WCW did with Sting and Lex Luger in 1996. I think enough time has passed to repeat that concept.

Indeed. That could be a very good idea. Make people care about the team dynamics. That way as they are getting more teams around them, people are learning to invest in the Swagger/Danielson team. Give people reason to care about the team rather than the sum of its parts.

[djthefunkchris]

Again, I must say I do not follow your logic. Why would a tag division be a huge investment? They already have the workers, and it's not like some face paint and matching attires would ruin them. You say it would require too many "changes in the company"... come on, I'm not asking them to re-structure their organization or drastically change their product or direction of the company. I think you're being a bit too dramatic here.

Last I heard, Vince isn't into tag team wrestling because of profits. Singles wrestling is where it is. It's not about in ring, or production, or hiring more people, or anything like that. It's the fact he can make twice more with singles wrestlers then tag team's.... merchandise wise. An example could be, throwing Big Show and Kane together as a tag team, yet they are singles wrestlers selling merchandise. IF they were only known as tag team wrestlers "The Giants" or something, then they would only sell "The Giants" merchandise, and not Big Show merchandise, and Kane merchandise.

That's jus a rough example, it's more complex then just that, if you really think about it... and it's actually an optimistic outlook in my opinion. Your bassically saying that all wrestler's have it in them to sell merchandise on their own. I personally think some won't, but possibly could if partnered with the right individual, that also couldn't. To me, it's twice the chance to do so, and later could end up profitable as a singles if the tag team becomes big enough "The Brian Kendrick" I really think could have worked alot better if not for putting a gimmick on someone that can't really pull off that gimmick.

[Hive]

Last I heard, Vince isn't into tag team wrestling because of profits. Singles wrestling is where it is. It's not about in ring, or production, or hiring more people, or anything like that. It's the fact he can make twice more with singles wrestlers then tag team's.... merchandise wise. An example could be, throwing Big Show and Kane together as a tag team, yet they are singles wrestlers selling merchandise. IF they were only known as tag team wrestlers "The Giants" or something, then they would only sell "The Giants" merchandise, and not Big Show merchandise, and Kane merchandise.

Interesting viewpoint. Though I still think a proper tag team gimmick on people who aren't exactly merc movers could do well for sales as well. Not that I actually *know* anything about the business side of wrestling...

[Teh_Showtime]

If he cared about the merchandise, then he would sell Ryder headbands :D WWWYKI

[shawn michaels 82]

Last I heard, Vince isn't into tag team wrestling because of profits. Singles wrestling is where it is. It's not about in ring, or production, or hiring more people, or anything like that. It's the fact he can make twice more with singles wrestlers then tag team's.... merchandise wise. An example could be, throwing Big Show and Kane together as a tag team, yet they are singles wrestlers selling merchandise. IF they were only known as tag team wrestlers "The Giants" or something, then they would only sell "The Giants" merchandise, and not Big Show merchandise, and Kane merchandise.

That's jus a rough example, it's more complex then just that, if you really think about it... and it's actually an optimistic outlook in my opinion. Your bassically saying that all wrestler's have it in them to sell merchandise on their own. I personally think some won't, but possibly could if partnered with the right individual, that also couldn't. To me, it's twice the chance to do so, and later could end up profitable as a singles if the tag team becomes big enough "The Brian Kendrick" I really think could have worked alot better if not for putting a gimmick on someone that can't really pull off that gimmick.

Yes, this is part of what i was trying to say. The most important part. The bottom line is that it would be possible, probably cheap, but he just likes to milk the singles wrestling cow.

[djthefunkchris]

Interesting viewpoint. Though I still think a proper tag team gimmick on people who aren't exactly merc movers could do well for sales as well. Not that I actually *know* anything about the business side of wrestling...
I'm of the same mind though. I would rather try and give a worker all kinds os possibilities, such as tag team, to get over/sell merchandise in some fashion, then let them go only to find I missed the boat (Ezekial Jackson/Pope, for example).

The problem isn't just "Vince" though, and I'll explain after the last quote.
If he cared about the merchandise, then he would sell Ryder headbands :D WWWYKI
...Ya know... I don't like the guy, never thought he had anything going on at all because of the whacked gimmick. However, I'm going to step back and let you young guys tell me, Is this really working? I mean, do you really, from all sides of this, think this gimmick is worth future investment? I have a hard time with this, because I think the only reason anyone see's anything at all in it, is because it's pretty much unique. My thing is.... Unique can be good, great, awesome, etc... but it can also be very bad. I feel it's very bad, but if you younger folks really do think it has something going for it, besides another Santino comedy act, than I'll have to conceed that perhaps I'm being a little too old fashioned about it.

Yes, this is part of what i was trying to say. The most important part. The bottom line is that it would be possible, probably cheap, but he just likes to milk the singles wrestling cow.

Although I would agree to an extent, you have to realise that Vince no longer just thinks of "Vince", but the company as a whole, and bussiness is a much bigger aspect of the company then ever before. Not that I don't believe it's what "Vince" wants himself... I just don't think he's anywhere near alone in this decision, and I don't think if someone was to prove Tag Teams can be big bussiness, that he would ignore it just because he don't like them (which I don't think he likes them... I don't know for fact).

You have to consider that Vince isn't the only one making decisions. I think that's one of the biggest Kafabe type things going right now... The idea that Vince would or could do anything he wants just "because" he's Vince. He's an easy scapegoat, and he intentionally put himself in that position. You can't be a normal IWC Smark in this aspect, because most of the time, IMO at least, the IWC are the biggest non-smart "Marks" there are, because it seems obvious that certain leaks and such they "find" are there for them to intentionally find, and give them a scapegoat for finger pointing. Bassically, half the time the IWC doesn't seem to know what's going on, and always dismiss facts that go against their "cause", because they "think" they have more news/facts then anyone else. The whole debate on who is better in the ring, for example, is a debate no one could answer unless the wrestler's went into MMA to prove it. Most of the time, the IWC picks wouldn't be the one's people would bet on. That is something, IMO, they just can't get past, is how much looks do have to do with who people would "buy" into.

Anyways, I went off topic a bit too much, so going to close before I create a whole new paragraph explaining in detail as to why I feel as I do.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

The whole debate on who is better in the ring, for example, is a debate no one could answer unless the wrestler's went into MMA to prove it.

Being a good pro wrestler has absolutely nothing in common with being a good MMA fighter.

[Hashasheen]

...Ya know... I don't like the guy, never thought he had anything going on at all because of the whacked gimmick. However, I'm going to step back and let you young guys tell me, Is this really working? I mean, do you really, from all sides of this, think this gimmick is worth future investment? I have a hard time with this, because I think the only reason anyone see's anything at all in it, is because it's pretty much unique. My thing is.... Unique can be good, great, awesome, etc... but it can also be very bad. I feel it's very bad, but if you younger folks really do think it has something going for it, besides another Santino comedy act, than I'll have to conceed that perhaps I'm being a little too old fashioned about it.

I personally think it does work. The thing is, he's both entertaining and he's breathing life in his character. That's two things you don't get often in the WWE outside of the top guys and whoever coming up. Time was, you knew what gimmick a guy had and what he could do with it. But now, everyone's so bland it hurts to push a new guy.

We've got maybe 3 angry black guys, one of whom is a face (Mark Henry, R-Truth, Ezekiel Jackson). We've had three heel Jericho imitators (Miz, Ziggler, Riley pre-face turn). We've had fun babyfaces who can fly (Mysterio, Kingston, Bourne).

Imagine if you emphasized Mysterio's lucha background and roots more. Went away from the unbelievable underdog crap and emphasised the honor of lucha libre, how Mysterio is so proud to be a big name among luchadores and all that. People could feud with him when they mock the lucha libre style, mock Mexico, mock him meaning anything in real wrestling.

Imagine if Kingston was a fun babyface who could bring out an edge not unlike the Cerebral Assassin, something that makes you go "Damn, I do not want to get on his bad side". Any heel who gets in his way has immediate chutzpah for risking that and has to match his level of intensity.

Or what if Heath Slater and Justin Gabriel were close as two friends could be, but with different attitudes. Slater the wannabe rock-star, Gabriel the level headed superstar. Each tempering the other as they develop into a true tag team.

The thing I like about TNA is that they're not afraid to develop characters, idiotic or not. Most of that seems to lie in Russo, and it's one of the few reasons I tolerate his position in TNA. He's not afraid to shake up his characters a little bit.

[djthefunkchris]

Being a good pro wrestler has absolutely nothing in common with being a good MMA fighter.

/nod, to an extent, but your missing my point, I think. The perception that wrestler A would do better then wrestler B in an MMA, or for the sake of debate, lets just say a straight up fight. This matter's alot more then most are willing to admit. You have to make people believe that they could overcome strength, height, weight... whatever odds it would be, by being so much better then the bigger/stronger guy.

The IWC thing I was touching on, for example... Almost all of their opinions are based on an imaginary crowd that doesn't exist... which is grown folks believing that wrestling isn't fake on some level. Something I think Shaun was trying to say, but used solely Vince as his example, which lost the point I think.

There is almost a totally non-existant crowd, that actually watch's Professional wrestling, that actually believes it. Seems to me, the "general" or "Casual" fans think its actually "faker" then what it is.... Thinking everything is completely choroagraphed, and the wrestler's are bassically "dancing". Hight flyers and complicated acts, especially. The more savage normal punch's, throws, and perhaps a few bodyslams looks alot more "believable" and has a lot better chance of something looking unscripted... Wow, looked like Kane hit him for real! Has alot to do with stiffness, the other worker's ability to sell, which I think has more to do with timing in their reaction (Don't go "ouch" 2 seconds after you were hit). Most of the time, the more complicated things are so "easy" to spot the other guy helping them with (Certain finisher's seem to require more of the target, then the person doing the finisher, for example). When on the top rope (for example), how can you suspend disbelief, when you watch them both get into proper position, and both jump at the same time?

IWC believes that people actually are impressed with the same things they are impressed with, and while often times that is true, I see way too often that it isn't working anything like they think it is, if you were to look at it objectively/watch crowd responce's, and the like.

Just something to think about... Kafabe is hardly ever broken, unless a worker is hurt for real, or something of that nature.... However, it is always interesting to see someone "seem" to break out of Kafabe. Otherwise, what it is and probably always will be, is a soap opera for men, combined with a circus act for the children.

[djthefunkchris]

I personally think it does work. The thing is, he's both entertaining and he's breathing life in his character. That's two things you don't get often in the WWE outside of the top guys and whoever coming up. Time was, you knew what gimmick a guy had and what he could do with it. But now, everyone's so bland it hurts to push a new guy.

We've got maybe 3 angry black guys, one of whom is a face (Mark Henry, R-Truth, Ezekiel Jackson). We've had three heel Jericho imitators (Miz, Ziggler, Riley pre-face turn). We've had fun babyfaces who can fly (Mysterio, Kingston, Bourne).

Imagine if you emphasized Mysterio's lucha background and roots more. Went away from the unbelievable underdog crap and emphasised the honor of lucha libre, how Mysterio is so proud to be a big name among luchadores and all that. People could feud with him when they mock the lucha libre style, mock Mexico, mock him meaning anything in real wrestling.

Imagine if Kingston was a fun babyface who could bring out an edge not unlike the Cerebral Assassin, something that makes you go "Damn, I do not want to get on his bad side". Any heel who gets in his way has immediate chutzpah for risking that and has to match his level of intensity.

Or what if Heath Slater and Justin Gabriel were close as two friends could be, but with different attitudes. Slater the wannabe rock-star, Gabriel the level headed superstar. Each tempering the other as they develop into a true tag team.

The thing I like about TNA is that they're not afraid to develop characters, idiotic or not. Most of that seems to lie in Russo, and it's one of the few reasons I tolerate his position in TNA. He's not afraid to shake up his characters a little bit.

I read "fake" artical about Russo... What the heck are they getting so excited about Punks promo for? They think it wasn't a work? It was just a little reality thrown in, we do it all the time... Look what we did with Jarrett and Angle, with Angle's ex? It doesn't get anymore real then that!

I got it! We need to throw in more Reality!!

As I said, if people really think this is a "good thing", I'm going to just take it as my age is effecting my ability to grasp his character, and so I'll concede that it's good. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of having unique characters, especially the way you laid it out. I just for some reason feel like this "Woo Woo" guy is all a forced act that's not unlike someone trying to sound like something they aren't. If I can't believe that's how he talks for real, then I can't believe the character, and I think that's got something to do with it as well...

[shawn michaels 82]

Ahhmm...to the guys above me posting aboout the IWC...you know you're part of it, right?? All of us in this discussion are. And you say they're wrong, right? Okay, than ask yourselves this: Do you guys think you're wrong when you voice your opinions?

Let me put it this way: I can bet that a lot of the IWC "members" (let's call them that way) were complete marks before they decided to go to the internet and talk about wrestling. They watched the shows, they loved it. But then they discovered some forum with a nice e-fed that made them meet new people, people that made them see wrestling in a new diferent way. And so they became marks, or markISH. And after that transformation, they never saw Pro Wrestling with the same eyes again... Why?

Simple! I won't even start writing dozens of lines about how looking into something 100 times makes it look predictable. It does. (I'll leave the dozens of lines for the rest of the post.) And we will understand that thing even beter, from inside out, if we talk with other 100 times viewers as us. So the IWC "members" usually become experts when they watch a wrestling show, whether they want it or not. Sure, that doesn't mean that all the IWC members became experts online. Yes, i know, that's not the point. The point is that we put pro wrestling under the magnifying glass so many times that we end up knowing how to tell the difference between the simple and the complicated.
The simple is always the pop mainstream product, built for the casual unexperienced fans. it sells, cause it's easy to understand, and makes people who know squat about wrestling buy ppvs. The complicated is art, made for those who understand what they're watching to some extent, and that actually know how to evaluate what they're watching.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not criticizing those who buy the easy stuff. Everyone likes things their own way. But the fact that the casual audience settles (or evens asks for) something we don't like doesn't make us wrong, doesn't make our standards wrong. It just proves that those guys specifically are buying the "easy" stuff, wich means that the "easy" stuff is working.

Bottom line, the IWC guys are experts, (some more than others, and all of them with diferent tastes) and that's why a main stream wrestling promotion like wwe wouldn't give a crap for them. It's like pitting The Backstreet Boys vs Mozart. Sure, some people may like BSB better, and they have the right to do so. But at the end of the day, who do we read about in books and study in schools? Mozart or BSB? Obvious answer. And who would sell the biggest? Well...surprise...the backstreet boys. More than 130 million records sold in over a decade prove my point...for those who love facts. The BSB-Mozart is just an example, but people have to understand the diference. One represents something that is easy to replicate and easier to pitch to the consumers. Boy/girl bands (as well as pop music in general) are catchy, easy going, with musics and lyrics combinations that just get stuck in our heads no matter how much we hate them, so we end up buying them so we can hear them, forget them and move along.Mozart is pretty much the exact way around. So...who's really right more times? The IWC or the guys that think that it's ALL coreographed and pain free, as one of you said it?

Sorry about the long post. :D

Btw, look at smackdown! What is that??? Virtually every week (or almost) there are 4 guys that end up brawling on the ring, and then Teddy Long comes out and books a tag team match. Every single week! (Or almost) What is the deal with that? Talk about lazy writers! This even ads up to the rest of my post, though it was supposed to be a side note. Oh well... Thanks for your time reading this "very small" post. :D

[Teh_Showtime]

I agreed with your post up until the SD part. Maybe a month or 2 ago I would have bought it, but currently, Smackdown is great and it is the best it has been since Mid-Late 2009 (imo). It's not lazy so much as it is just classic wrestling logic. It's amazing that the simple things that made wrestling famous can sometimes actually sell a product :rolleyes:.

[shawn michaels 82]

I agreed with your post up until the SD part. Maybe a month or 2 ago I would have bought it, but currently, Smackdown is great and it is the best it has been since Mid-Late 2009 (imo). It's not lazy so much as it is just classic wrestling logic. It's amazing that the simple things that made wrestling famous can sometimes actually sell a product :rolleyes:.

You can agree with the full post than, because i brought up the sd deal after watching a replay. The one after the Christian heel turn. Where Sheamus beats orton...and before that?? A tag team match...made by...Teddy Long...after a 4.way.brawl. Btw i edited the post, to better complete some thoughts on the other subjects. :D

[Teh_Showtime]

It's not like it's random though, nor is it the same 4 people every week. If it advances the story in a logical way it is a plus in my book. I think you might be referring to the Daniel Bryan and Sin Cara vs Rhodes/DiBiase matches though. In that case I would agree with you.

[codey]

Bottom line, the IWC guys are experts, (some more than others, and all of them with diferent tastes) and that's why a main stream wrestling promotion like wwe wouldn't give a crap for them. It's like pitting The Backstreet Boys vs Mozart. Sure, some people may like BSB better, and they have the right to do so. But at the end of the day, who do we read about in books and study in schools? Mozart or BSB? Obvious answer. And who would sell the biggest? Well...surprise...the backstreet boys. More than 130 million records sold in a decade prove my point...for those who love facts. The BSB-Mozart iss just an example, but people have to understand the diference. One represents something that is easy to replicate and easier to buy. Boy/girl bands (as well as pop music in general) are catchy, easy going, with musics and lyrics combinations that just get stuck in our heads no matter how much we hate them, so we end up buying them so we can hear them, forget them and move along.Mozart is pretty much the exact way around. So...who's really right more times? The IWC or the guys that think that it's all coreographed, as you said it?


While this is true, I don't think it really applies to wrestling. Why? The people that go down in the history as the biggest of all time are essentially the BSB. Guys like Hogan, Cena, and Rocky are going down in the history books as the biggest wrestlers of all time.

Not to say that they're BSB bad, though. They had the skills to go along with their looks that made sure they stayed on top. Be it in ring, on the microphone, whatever, they're able to stay on top. Guys like Great Khali, however, may have the look, but they're unable to pull it together into a total package, which is why they won't be remembered. I think that's what makes wrestling really special. If you want to truly be remembered for decades, you have to have the total package. You can't be great at just one aspect of your craft. There's a reason people will always remember Ric Flair over Arn Anderson. While they were both (I'd say) equally as good in the ring, Flair could combine that with charisma and became the undeniable star we all know today, whereas Arn couldn't.

[shawn michaels 82]

It's not like it's random though, nor is it the same 4 people every week. If it advances the story in a logical way it is a plus in my book. I think you might be referring to the Daniel Bryan and Sin Cara vs Rhodes/DiBiase matches though. In that case I would agree with you.

Yes, that was the match.

[shawn michaels 82]

While this is true, I don't think it really applies to wrestling. Why? The people that go down in the history as the biggest of all time are essentially the BSB. Guys like Hogan, Cena, and Rocky are going down in the history books as the biggest wrestlers of all time.

Not to say that they're BSB bad, though. They had the skills to go along with their looks that made sure they stayed on top. Be it in ring, on the microphone, whatever, they're able to stay on top. Guys like Great Khali, however, may have the look, but they're unable to pull it together into a total package, which is why they won't be remembered. I think that's what makes wrestling really special. If you want to truly be remembered for decades, you have to have the total package. You can't be great at just one aspect of your craft. There's a reason people will always remember Ric Flair over Arn Anderson. While they were both (I'd say) equally as good in the ring, Flair could combine that with charisma and became the undeniable star we all know today, whereas Arn couldn't.

That actually proves my point. The BSB themselves sold 130 million recods so far because they have the total package. They had the looks, they had (still do, i guess) the vocals, and they had the catchy tunes. Much like Cena: Looks, voice, and the catchy tunes. (that last part meaning a decent ring work, but not a great one, or close to best of all times)

Ps: Comparing Hogan/Cena to the BSB is actually the "coup des gras", as the BSB are actually the biggest selling boy band ever, so it fits perfectly.

[codey]

lol, I guess you're right. I think I was just skewed against the Backstreet Boys. They're no N*Sync, after all. :D

[shawn michaels 82]

lol, I guess you're right. I think I was just skewed against the Backstreet Boys. They're no N*Sync, after all. :D

I'd disagree with you right there. Justin Timberlake is like the John Cena of Pop music for me. I strongly dislike him. Besides the BSB might be...well...the BSB, but all of them actually have vocal abilities. Especially the can't-remember-his-name-that-went-to-Oprah-because-he-has-demons dude. N'Sync by the other hand...is another story. And they sold only 56 million records worldwide.

[codey]

But, POP, man, POP!

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Wow, what? JT is a p cool guy.

[Linsolv]

I'd compare Cena more to Lady GaGa. She's repeatedly demonstrated that she's a skilled pianist, her voice is nice, and every so often she writes something that means anything at all; She's also at the top despite a vocal group of detractors. On the other hand, her mainstream appeal and her gimmick makes her unpalatable to many.

[Jaysin]

The only unique thing about Lady Gaga is her look...her music is no different then any other popstar.

[Teh_Showtime]

The only unique thing about Lady Gaga is her look...her music is no different then any other popstar.

She has some unique charisma that makes people flock to her. Same could be said for Cena

[shawn michaels 82]

Right! Lady Gaga fits. She might sell and she might not be unskilled, but she's no freddie mercury, for example. That guy had the flashy gimmick as well, but boy could he sing...and play, and write...and compose... (so did the rest of queen, but none of them like mercury) Cena is definitely no Mercury. But he's no O-town as well. The fact is that it's to soon to tell what Lady Gaga's impact will be in the long time. I think she was fashion for a while and will disappear. (God i hope so!) Her second album only reached number one because the record label droped the digital sales price to less then one dolar for a few days when it came out. And it still seems that it won't sell as much as fame.

But, POP, man, POP!

I know. :D I can give you that much! :D

[shawn michaels 82]

Also: What's the deal with Dwayne? He just came out of a blockbuster like fast five (and will be joining the cast for future sequels, acording to Vin Diesel) and last time i heard his movie career hasn't jump the shark. So...what's the deal with him returning to the E and wrestling Cena next year? Why risk an injury when he has steady pay day on films? Or has his acting career began to jump the shark? Actually it hasn't...so... i presume Vince is paying a lot to this guy.

[djthefunkchris]

Also: What's the deal with Dwayne? He just came out of a blockbuster like fast five (and will be joining the cast for future sequels, acording to Vin Diesel) and last time i heard his movie career hasn't jump the shark. So...what's the deal with him returning to the E and wrestling Cena next year? Why risk an injury when he has steady pay day on films? Or has his acting career began to jump the shark? Actually it hasn't...so... i presume Vince is paying a lot to this guy.

I'm going to guess that he just missed it. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Far as your points, I would venture to say that Cena is more like Elvis Presley. Not the best at anything, but has a charasma about him that makes the girls scream... and most men dislike him.

BSB would be more like the spirit squad... Hot at the time, wish we could forget them.

[BurningHamster]

This discussion is terrible and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Backstreet Boys? Lady Gaga? Seriously? :p

[djthefunkchris]

This discussion is terrible and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Backstreet Boys? Lady Gaga? Seriously? :p

I feel the same, but I think they actually like both of them, so I didn't want to... say the wrong thing.

[FlameSnoopy]

This discussion is terrible and you should all be ashamed of yourselves. Backstreet Boys? Lady Gaga? Seriously? :p

Haha. My thoughts exactly. :D

[MasterJ]

The only unique thing about Lady Gaga is her look...her music is no different then any other popstar.

she has a penis....that is all:cool:

[Jaysin]

she has a penis....that is all:cool:

Can we be friends?

[Teh_Showtime]

Ok, so I was reading an article on B/R today regarding the 10 best PPV build up promos (found here (http://bleacherreport.com/articles/755647-wwe-10-of-wrestlings-greatest-video-promo-packages-part.) ) I have come to the conclusion that Shawn Michaels' retirement storyline was one of the greatest things in wrestling history.

From Royal Rumble 2008 until WrestleMania 26, every feud that HBK was in added another layer of depth to the long term story that would be left in 2010 when he retired at the hands of the Undertaker. The Batista and Chris Jericho feuds were all started off the back of Shawn retiring Flair.

It comes full circle from Ric Flair not wanting to admit that it might be time to retire (old yeller), and even Michaels does the same thing in his last match when he slapped Taker after he told him to stay down.

The legend gets too confident and is in way over his head. They chose to go against someone who is always seen to raise their game at WM, and their opponents reluctantly agree to the matches.

Add that to the foreshadowing that has been happening since the Royal Rumble of 2008 when they were the last 2 left and Shawn's quest to somehow find a way to get a match with Undertaker and you have flawless storytelling.

Even though it was never acknowledged as a running storyline, it still is the best angle in history when you consider how long it was.

[milamber]

The WWE roster is big enough to create a few tag teams. Add an extra half hour to Smackdown and between that and Raw you can fit in 2 proper tag matches per week without reducing the singles action.

And it's not that hard to put over tag teams. Good teams like the Usos in a fast paced 10 minute tag match will get the crowd pumping if given the chance.

[shawn michaels 82]

I feel the same, but I think they actually like both of them, so I didn't want to... say the wrong thing.


We were using them (at least i was) as examples of pop cheasy easy stuff. How can you assume we like it?


The WWE roster is big enough to create a few tag teams. Add an extra half hour to Smackdown and between that and Raw you can fit in 2 proper tag matches per week without reducing the singles action.

And it's not that hard to put over tag teams. Good teams like the Usos in a fast paced 10 minute tag match will get the crowd pumping if given the chance.

Yeah..not gonna happen, lets just leave it at that. :D

[Hive]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a travesty that they keep jobbing The Miz to Alex Riley?

[Nathers7]

Am I the only one who thinks it's a travesty that they keep jobbing The Miz to Alex Riley?

I think they're pushing Riley too quickly even though he is great on the mic, winning clean against a guy who was WWE champion for 5 months is a bit strange.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Miz has nothing to lose IMO, Riley has everything to gain. Simple explanation for it. The old adage says you can't keep everyone on top... everyone is gonna have to end up taking a backseat sometime.

[Linsolv]

I think they're pushing Riley too quickly even though he is great on the mic, winning clean against a guy who was WWE champion for 5 months is a bit strange.

Miz was champ for 5 months because of his ability to cheat. If you just make it so that he can't cheat then he was ACTUALLY PUSHED as a weak wrestler. Clean wins should be coming left and right when he doesn't succeed in cheating.

[Moe Hunter]

I just, I don't even... Is this a real post or am I being punked? The point isn't that weights are true,
"Somebody might need to go back to fact vs. opinion school. HBK's 15 pound weight difference is a fact."

It's not fact, it's absolutely not fact, yet that's the point you stated. Continuing on...

it's that the idea that Cena was god-pushed because of his size is completely ridiculous when he's BILLED at 240. Seriously is this that hard to understand?

Yes, because that's not what you said. You said HBK's 15 pound weight difference is a fact.

Also, how exactly is it ridiculous to say he's pushed based on his size? Who cares what he's billed at? If they billed Kane at 240, would you tell me his size wasn't a factor?


And yes, WO are based on "opinions," the opinions of thousands of people, which is then recorded and put into an award that has considerable recognition within the community. Seriously, this is how awards work in any field, so I'm not sure why it has to be explained. The point is Cena is objectively considered to be one of the best wrestlers on the planet, in addition to objectively drawing more money than anyone else.
Not that I want to really get in to politics, but seriously this just sounds like "thousands of Americans can't be wrong!"

We can say that there have been bad US Presidents, or elected leaders in any field. People voting for Cena for this award doesn't *make* him good, it just reflects the opinions of those people. Millions of people voted for Nixon, Reagan, Carter, Clinton, Bush, Obama... it doesn't mean they were all good, it just reflects the opinions of the people at the time.

How is a collation of opinions somehow "objective"? Drawing money is objective, but a subset of community consideration can only be at best "less subjective than less opinions".

So the whole "oh he's easily replaceable/he can't work/he's only there because Vince loves big guys" was a combination of three untrue statements. Not just "oh that's your opinion that's fine" statements, but flat out directly in the face of reality.
I agree with you here. He's not easily replaceable, he fills a segment that no one seems like they could capture at the moment. He can work (though not that well IMO - he's sloppy, whiffs and botches way more than a ME guy should, and has awful psychology).

He's not only there because of his size, but you'd have to be insane to ignore it, and that's why I took any issue with you at all - trying to suggest (though you say you weren't, in which case, very odd choice of words) that he's only got 15lbs on HBK.


The WWE roster is big enough to create a few tag teams. Add an extra half hour to Smackdown and between that and Raw you can fit in 2 proper tag matches per week without reducing the singles action.
Hell, just get rid of all the "Raw Rebounds" and other boring angles they have on SD, and there's plenty of time for tag teams!


So I'm not very excited for this week's Raw, since there's no CM Punk to be had, just Vince and Cena arguing over whether he'll be there next week. I'll catch it on Youtube but that's about it. Looking forward to MitB though, if they follow through well on the angles.

[lazorbeak]

"Somebody might need to go back to fact vs. opinion school. HBK's 15 pound weight difference is a fact."

It's not fact, it's absolutely not fact, yet that's the point you stated. Continuing on...


Yes, because that's not what you said. You said HBK's 15 pound weight difference is a fact.

Also, how exactly is it ridiculous to say he's pushed based on his size? Who cares what he's billed at? If they billed Kane at 240, would you tell me his size wasn't a factor?

How is a collation of opinions somehow "objective"? Drawing money is objective, but a subset of community consideration can only be at best "less subjective than less opinions".


The argument has moved on so completely that this post is pretty unnecessary. Yes, awards are objective. Your "thousands of Americans" statement is close to the truth, except it could be "thousands of anyone democratically selecting someone." Consensus creates the award, and the award is an objective measure of the respect of a community. Yes, sometimes there are mistakes, but that isn't the point. It's a semantics issue and a hair-splitting one, so again, why are we even talking about it? Would you say Richard Nixon was subjectively elected president? That it was a matter of opinion? No, even though subjective factors led to his presidency. Opinions created the award, winning the award is a fact. That's how it works in any award in any medium, that's why mentioning that someone has won an award is a factual counter to the subjective "oh I think so and so SUCKS." It doesn't inherently prove that so in so does not, in fact, suck, but it's evidence that they probably don't, or at least, didn't at one time.

Yes, billed weights are objective, even if you think they're wrong (that is attacking evidence veracity, not whether it is a fact/opinion). The fact that Cena is billed at 240 (and it is a fact that he's billed at that weight) suggests that there is not an intended perception of Cena as "big guy," and that makes sense, considering he's not a particularly big guy, and outside of the Miz and Jericho, virtually everybody he works with is bigger than him. And again, my point was not that Cena couldn't have been pushed due to his size, so saying it's "insane" to dismiss that is missing the point. The point is it's an arbitrary distinction to say that 240 pounds is "big" and 225 isn't. What Shawn Michaels and Cena's weight difference if you had a weigh-in is absolutely not the point I was trying to make, now or ever.

And as someone closer to Randy Orton's size, I have a hard time even picturing a guy 3-4 inches shorter than me as a "big guy." Yeah, he's in shape, but so is Dolph Ziggler. Are we going to say he's been pushed because of Vince's love of big guys? Did John Morrison get over because of his size? I mean if you classify Cena as a big guy, where do you make the cut-off? That was the point I was making several pages ago. For TEW purposes, Cena would be a middleweight. He's listed at around the same size as Ric Flair in his prime. So to dismiss the work it took to get him over by saying "oh well he's a big guy so of course" was a tremendous oversimplification which was why I used facts to explain why it wasn't just an "oh I think x and you think y" situation.

But again, why are you bringing this up days after the conversation has totally moved on?


As for why The Rock is getting in the ring next year, he has no monetary reason for it: he's having a lot of success in Hollywood with his twin personas of Dwayne Johnson, comedic actor and The Rock, action hero guy. He's most likely doing it because he likes working in front of a live crowd and he wants to help the company out. I think he just wants to do it. Wrestling can be pretty addictive, and Rock's been gone a solid 7 years, so it's no surprise he's got the itch [/obscure reference].

[Teh_Showtime]

They really bill Cena at 240? I wouldnt have a problem believing it if they said he was 260. I think 260 would have him as a big guy, but only relative to the others that are not big guys.

[Linsolv]

Man I'm not having fun with this Christian feud. More than anything it's getting Teddy Long over as a heel, more than Christian. Maybe that's the goal? I dunno. It's so infuriating.

[shawn michaels 82]

As for why The Rock is getting in the ring next year, he has no monetary reason for it: he's having a lot of success in Hollywood with his twin personas of Dwayne Johnson, comedic actor and The Rock, action hero guy. He's most likely doing it because he likes working in front of a live crowd and he wants to help the company out. I think he just wants to do it. Wrestling can be pretty addictive, and Rock's been gone a solid 7 years, so it's no surprise he's got the itch [/obscure reference].

Yeah. I've been doing my research and he's worth 10 to 15 million dollars a movie. So money is no reason. Perhaps we're so used to a world where people only return because of all the "bad" reasons, that we may think of doubting The Rock as an imediate instinct. But maybe this is one of those cases where he actually returns because he loves the business. Afterall, he did grow in it.

[Jaysin]

As for why The Rock is getting in the ring next year, he has no monetary reason for it: he's having a lot of success in Hollywood with his twin personas of Dwayne Johnson, comedic actor and The Rock, action hero guy. He's most likely doing it because he likes working in front of a live crowd and he wants to help the company out. I think he just wants to do it. Wrestling can be pretty addictive, and Rock's been gone a solid 7 years, so it's no surprise he's got the itch [/obscure reference].

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/VenomousPrime/19.jpg

[lazorbeak]

That's what I get for referencing Billy Wilder movies around the children. :p

[Jaysin]

That's what I get for referencing Billy Wilder movies around the children. :p

I figured the movie reference was less obscure than Billy Kidman's name for the Shooting Star Press :p

[Linsolv]

That's what I get for referencing Billy Wilder movies around the children. :p

You mean the Marilyn Monroe picture? I didn't realize it was obscure. I thought that the image of her skirt being blown up by the subway grate was one of the most iconic Hollywood moments...

[cappyboy]

You mean the Marilyn Monroe picture? I didn't realize it was obscure. I thought that the image of her skirt being blown up by the subway grate was one of the most iconic Hollywood moments...

And that was a different movie.

[Linsolv]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q92zpt9QCYM :|

[EDIT: Sorry, I took the first link I could find. It turned out to be bad. So I had to get a new one.]

(Or... is "Seven Year Itch" actually a SUPER obscure Some Like It Hot reference? I dunno. I just sorta assumed that the reference was more direct than 'being the name of a movie but not the movie I'm referring to...')

[Jaysin]

And that was a different movie.

Don't think so...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Seven_Year_Itch

[ShaunGBD]

On June 22nd, WWE registered the "CM Punk" name for merchandise use. WWE trademarked Punk's name for wrestling use back in 2009. It will be interesting to see if they allow Punk to use the name once he leaves the company. WWE also recently registered "The Last Outlaw" for wrestling use, which goes along with The Undertaker.

Source: NoDQ

So I would think he resigned.

[shawn michaels 82]

Source: NoDQ

So I would think he resigned.

Do you have any direct link to this information?

[Linsolv]

Do you have any direct link to this information?

http://nodq.com/wwe/311801425.shtml

[shawn michaels 82]

http://nodq.com/wwe/311801425.shtml

Thanks. :)

[Hive]

Has anyone seen this video of Punk arguing with a "fan" in Australia? It's awesome! Watching Punk yell "You have a vagina!" at some moron is priceless. Check it out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuRjgE19HfM&feature=player_embedded#at=36

[Teh_Showtime]

nothing will ever beat "I hope your parents die".

That was classic Punk

[shawn michaels 82]

The WWE registered the CM Punk name for merchandise purposes on the 22nd of June. The shoot happened 5 days later. Do i need to say more?

[Fantabulous]

The WWE registered the CM Punk name for merchandise purposes on the 22nd of June. The shoot happened 5 days later. Do i need to say more?

Yes, please, because none of us have figured out Punk is either staying or coming back after he's rested up.

[angeldelayette]

I actually enjoyed John Cena's opening promo.

[Zeel1]

Hm, was wondering how Punk would get reinstated. Didn't figure on Cena himself arguing it, but hearing it, it's pretty fitting for him.

Here's how I see this going; Del Rio wins the Triple Threat tonight, only for Vince to unsuspend Punk, and getting his title shot back, taking away Del Rio's title shot. This gives Del Rio a legitimate argument for going after Cena after MITB - assuming Cena retains against Punk - leading to the SummerSlam match that everyone's been expecting.

[GhostDogg]

"First LITTLE JIMMY, now SENIOR JIMMY???"


Priceless

[angeldelayette]

I gotta say that I'm a big fan of Alberto Del Rio. He's pretty good on the mic and in the ring in my opinion. But, hey, you already know that.

[Mr Rager]

I can see R-Truth winning the triple threat tonight, fueling the 'conspiracy theory' when he gets stripped of his title shot.

[Teh_Showtime]

WWWYKI!!!!

and Nexus looked pretty good as a team tonight in the wake of our tag discussion.

[Zeel1]

Hahaha, Ryder appearing just to appear. Got the feeling that was a little rib on the 'Ryder or Riot' crowd... :p

and Nexus looked pretty good as a team tonight in the wake of our tag discussion.

They also have sorta similar tights, for those that were wanting more of that.

[angeldelayette]

Hahaha, Ryder appearing just to appear. Got the feeling that was a little rib on the 'Ryder or Riot' crowd... :p

In the words of the Miz.."really? Really? REALLY?" Maybe I'm just too old to get the appeal of Zack Ryder.

[Hashasheen]

In the words of the Miz.."really? Really? REALLY?" Maybe I'm just too old to get the appeal of Zack Ryder.

self-quoting what I said to djthefunkchris:

I personally think it does work. The thing is, he's both entertaining and he's breathing life in his character. That's two things you don't get often in the WWE outside of the top guys and whoever coming up. Time was, you knew what gimmick a guy had and what he could do with it. But now, everyone's so bland it hurts to push a new guy.

[Zeel1]

In the words of the Miz.."really? Really? REALLY?" Maybe I'm just too old to get the appeal of Zack Ryder.

I really don't know if it's a matter of being too old. Jericho seems to be a fan, and he's 40... :p

I can't necessarily explain his appeal, aside from finding his web show and stuff kinda funny. Maybe it's just that sense of enthusiasm he gives me. I mean it's not like he had to start making those, and I doubt he knew it'd get the following that it has, he just did it for fun as far as I know. He seems like he's having fun with it, and for some reason, I always like getting that feeling.

I just find him oddly entertaining, and for a long time I've thought he was solid in the ring, I remember him having great matches with Christian back in '09 that made me think he had a lot of promise.

[Teh_Showtime]

Yeah I used to watch ECW solely for Ryder and the Christian\Swagger feud.

Ryder has unique offense which is a rarity these days and he obviously has charisma. But he has proven he can be good in ring

[ampulator]

40 is the new 30, and 30 is the new 20, dude. :p

[angeldelayette]

Maybe if he ever gets the opportunity Zack Ryder can prove me wrong. And I'll be the first to come here and say that if he ever does. Though I'm not downing anyone for liking him. If we all liked the same things then this world would be a dull place. After all, I didn't like The Miz initially either and he's grown on me.

[Zeel1]

So Del Rio did win, cool finish, very solid triple threat. Let's see how the rest of my prediction goes...

[Teh_Showtime]

That sunset flip spot was nice. I miss Ricardo doing ADR's entrance, he made it that much better

[Prophet]

I think the biggest appeal that Ryder brings is that he's different. Creatively different. I remember someone earlier in the thread describing how so many fit into molds (ie- fun babyface = Evan Bourne/Kofi Kingston/etc.), and Ryder is a break from the norm.

And his web show has shown his creativity. If I had any pull in the company, I'd air his "this is your brain" parody commercials weekly. I just think that the fact that he's something fresh works for him, and he's shown that he has the creativity and personality to make that work for him.

I'm also kind of glad that he's turned (albeit on his web show, and subsequent match with Primo), because as great as I think Ryder is, the persona doesn't lend itself to being heel. Never been a fan of heels who try to be bad, yet get the crowd to root for them.

[Zeel1]

I'm also kind of glad that he's turned (albeit on his web show, and subsequent match with Primo), because as great as I think Ryder is, the persona doesn't lend itself to being heel. Never been a fan of heels who try to be bad, yet get the crowd to root for them.

Yeah, he lends himself to being face to me. The only way those kind of characters work as a heel for me is if they seem to really believe they're so awesome and that all the chicks love them, but - and this is pretty much thanks to the web show, I think - nowadays he just comes across as someone that's just messing around and having fun, and that seems a lot more babyface-esque to me.

[angeldelayette]

Call me crazy but I'm thinking that Vickie is looking pretty good there. One of the first thoughts in my mind was she is one of those women who has the body but not the face to match it. A single bagger, if you will.

[Zeel1]

Well, she HAS lost quite a bit of weight, but she'll probably always be fat to creative... :p

[Zeel1]

I love that they've started doing all these hype vids for people again. They aren't quite the Desire vids people used to love, but they're good for reminding you how awesome people are. I also like how they're hyping up MITB, showing the awesome highlights and all of the subsequent title wins, the match has gotten quite a bit of prestige - although I think I would still kind of prefer it if it was WrestleMania exclusive...

[Teh_Showtime]

Well, she HAS lost quite a bit of weight, but she'll probably always be fat to creative... :p

only to King ;)

[Zeel1]

I actually kind of like how Riley's been going over Miz. He keeps getting good reactions, so it seems to have served it's purpose, and Miz is someone I feel can bounce back and get his heat back pretty quickly, so I don't think there's much risk with it.

[Zeel1]

Huh. Vince's promo just now REALLY painted Punk out as a face, didn't it? Interesting...

[TheEdgeOfReason]

This promo is great. I just kinda hate how it basically ensures Cena wins.

[Zeel1]

Boy, this is getting good.

And Vinnie himself just said "some other wrestling organization"... I'm starting to think this whole "never say we're wrestling" thing was wildly overblown... :p

[Teh_Showtime]

John Cena is money tonight. Vince had to paint Punk as a face because he'd get a crazy good reaction at MITB.

[Zeel1]

Wooooow, I am ADORING this...

[angeldelayette]

Another great ending to Raw. Two weeks in a row that's going to have people talking.

[BHK1978]

"First LITTLE JIMMY, now SENIOR JIMMY???"


Priceless

I agree, I am finding him to be one of the best things on RAW as of late.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think that it is clear that without themed shows or a horrible fantasy GM, Raw can be very good.

The GM didnt chime in tonight and Ryder got face time. Hmm...

[BHK1978]

I also wanted to say that I was a bit shocked that they acknowledged Sarge's turn on America back in 1990. I mean this is the WWF (yes I refuse to call it that other name) and as everyone knows in the WWF there is no such thing as history unless it happened in the last five years.:D

[Comradebot]

I think that it is clear that without themed shows or a horrible fantasy GM, Raw can be very good.

The GM didnt chime in tonight and Ryder got face time. Hmm...

Ryder (as GM) or riot...


WOO WOO WOO YOU KNOW IT!





Honestly, considering his status as the WWE Internet Champion... and the Raw GM's use of emails as its sole means of communication (except that one, really weird angle where it had a voice like GlaDos from Portal and Edge speared the laptop...)... :cool:

[djthefunkchris]

Huh. Vince's promo just now REALLY painted Punk out as a face, didn't it? Interesting...

The best thing about it, was that it was done back to back with the previous RAW. IF they could have done this live, I believe everytime Punk's name was mentioned, they would have went nuts for him (the crowd). I didn't get to see this raw yet, soon as someone puts it up on Youtube I will though.

Next weeks going to be more interesting I think. I really wish I didn't have to work every Monday night.

[djthefunkchris]

This promo is great. I just kinda hate how it basically ensures Cena wins.

I will again state my prediction, in case no one heard it the first time.

I think Punk is going to win. Then the money in the bank guy is going to come out and challenge punk (whoever wins MITB).

I predict that Punk will also win that match as well..

And it's all just to drive you nuts.

[ShaunGBD]

A few weeks ago in a internet report that Vince bully Zack Ryder by telling him he would be on the All Star edition of Raw and then it never happened....

CM Punk said at the end of his shot promo that he was gonna say something about Vince and the Bully campaign.

Does anyone think that's is what Punk was gonna talk about?

[cappyboy]

A few weeks ago in a internet report that Vince bully Zack Ryder by telling him he would be on the All Star edition of Raw and then it never happened....

CM Punk said at the end of his shot promo that he was gonna say something about Vince and the Bully campaign.

Does anyone think that's is what Punk was gonna talk about?

Certainly wouldn't surprise me if it were. Think back to all the anti-drug spots they did in the 80's despite the fact so much of the roster was battling addiction and/or roiding. Do as I say not as I do is a sad WWE tradition.

[FINisher]

I will again state my prediction, in case no one heard it the first time.

I think Punk is going to win. Then the money in the bank guy is going to come out and challenge punk (whoever wins MITB).

I predict that Punk will also win that match as well..

And it's all just to drive you nuts.

Loved that Cena - Vince promo on RAW. I predict that atleast CM Punk wins the match and the new MITB winner(s) comes to cash in the contract. But not sure if Punk would lose or win that match. Whatever happens it's going to be a great night with a great main event. I really hope that WWE doesn't screw this up, I really do. :D

I can just imagine the Chicago crowd rooting for Punk. Think about it. Or the reaction of the fans if and when CM Punk wins the match.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I will again state my prediction, in case no one heard it the first time.

I think Punk is going to win. Then the money in the bank guy is going to come out and challenge punk (whoever wins MITB).

I predict that Punk will also win that match as well..

And it's all just to drive you nuts.

I would mark hard if he did. I just don't see them taking both guys off TV at the same time and I don't think they would do the Cena fired story so soon again. If you had asked me right after the Punk promo, I'd have said he was gonna win, I just don't think they will take Cena off TV unless he really is hurt.

[Fantabulous]

Heck, if we're reposting our own stuff because we like to read it...sorry, in case in no one heard it the first time:

Punk beats Cena for the title. Punk gloats. Vince comes out to fire Cena and then announces that ADR, who won the MitB, is cashing it in and he'll do what Cena couldn't and bring the WWE title back to the fold. Cue the match. ADR and Punk are down. Cena hits the ring, pauses, FU's ADR and puts Punk on top and Punk retains. Cena declares that he's sick of being the company man, having to carry all that weight on his shoulders, says something like, "Hey Vince; FU." and walks out. Punk is left to gloat, having won the title and now in a position of power, with the announcers stunned at the prospect of the WWE title being in possession of a man who is leaving the company.

If Punk does re-sign, they can run the storyline that Vince is being forced to negotiate with Punk to return with the title and he has to acquiesce to some of Punk's demands. Cue a long running battle of Vince trying to find a way to get the belt off of Punk, vowing to fire him once he loses the belt. Naturally, Punk finds a way to keep the belt for long enough that Vince reaches out to the one man he knows can find a way to bring the title back to WWE...

Big Cena return, major pops, Cena beats Punk for the belt. Vince fires Punk, who can then take the lengthy break he wants before coming back in some fashion three or four months down the line.


CM Punk said at the end of his shot promo that he was gonna say something about Vince and the Bully campaign.

Does anyone think that's is what Punk was gonna talk about?

Punk wasn't going to be talking about anything. The mic getting cut off was the planned ending for the worked shoot promo; obvious, I know, but obvious things need stating around here. I believe, and this makes sense if you're doing a worked shoot angle, is that the mentioning of the anti-bullying campaign was the cue for the mic to be cut. You don't want the worked shoot to go on for too long but at the same time you need the guy to go on for long enough that he gets across the points he needs to, ie: make it clear why he's 'shooting'. So you tell him that when he's done getting across what needs to be got across, to mention something specific, in this case the anti-bullying, so the production people know it's time to cut his mic.

[kipfizh]

Punk winning as being challenged by the MITB winner makes sense, especially given the wording of Vince's threat - 'if Punk leaves Chicago with the title', not 'if Punk beats you'.

However, let's just assume for a minute that Punk is going on hiatus, and he will win and lose the title in one night (as I suspect will happen). Would you have a face or heel win MITB, and ultimately the title?

A face would make sense from the point of view of 'saving the company', particularly as Punk is supposed to be a heel, but it is being held in Punk's hometown, and he is likely to be the face of the Cena title match. Which way would you go?

[Teh_Showtime]

If only Drew McIntre was relevant. He could win MITB and be Vince's saving grace.

[UkWrestleFan]

Hope they don't screw this up. Cena/Punk could be this generations Rock/Austin.

[Teh_Showtime]

I would quite like to see Cena as the anti-authority face down the line.

And I just watched the build to Orton/HHH at WM25, Orton was amazing in that feud.

[Fantabulous]

And I just watched the build to Orton/HHH at WM25, Orton was amazing in that feud.
That was going great until they got overly cute and did the home invasion angle; it went from this strong, emotional angle into the usual over-the-top hokey WWE storyline, and something great was rendered almost meaningless. Their Wrestlemania match didn't exactly help, either.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Heck, if we're reposting our own stuff because we like to read it...sorry, in case in no one heard it the first time:

Punk beats Cena for the title. Punk gloats. Vince comes out to fire Cena and then announces that ADR, who won the MitB, is cashing it in and he'll do what Cena couldn't and bring the WWE title back to the fold. Cue the match. ADR and Punk are down. Cena hits the ring, pauses, FU's ADR and puts Punk on top and Punk retains. Cena declares that he's sick of being the company man, having to carry all that weight on his shoulders, says something like, "Hey Vince; FU." and walks out. Punk is left to gloat, having won the title and now in a position of power, with the announcers stunned at the prospect of the WWE title being in possession of a man who is leaving the company.

If Punk does re-sign, they can run the storyline that Vince is being forced to negotiate with Punk to return with the title and he has to acquiesce to some of Punk's demands. Cue a long running battle of Vince trying to find a way to get the belt off of Punk, vowing to fire him once he loses the belt. Naturally, Punk finds a way to keep the belt for long enough that Vince reaches out to the one man he knows can find a way to bring the title back to WWE...

Big Cena return, major pops, Cena beats Punk for the belt. Vince fires Punk, who can then take the lengthy break he wants before coming back in some fashion three or four months down the line.



Punk wasn't going to be talking about anything. The mic getting cut off was the planned ending for the worked shoot promo; obvious, I know, but obvious things need stating around here. I believe, and this makes sense if you're doing a worked shoot angle, is that the mentioning of the anti-bullying campaign was the cue for the mic to be cut. You don't want the worked shoot to go on for too long but at the same time you need the guy to go on for long enough that he gets across the points he needs to, ie: make it clear why he's 'shooting'. So you tell him that when he's done getting across what needs to be got across, to mention something specific, in this case the anti-bullying, so the production people know it's time to cut his mic.

Cena turning heel as he exits and returning a face makes little sense.

[Fantabulous]

Cena turning heel as he exits and returning a face makes little sense.

It's not a heel turn and wouldn't be presented as such. It would be portrayed that Cena had had enough pressure from Vince to be the company guy and to carry the load that the threat that if Punk leaves as champion then Cena is fired, was the last straw. It's positioned that Cena is a good guy but Vince crossed the line with the threat to fire him and Cena just snapped. Everyone knows Cena is a company man and he does so much, and I think it would be realistic if at some point, say when he's threatened with being fired if Punk leaves with the title, Cena just snaps and lashes out at Vince. I think people can identify with someone expected to do so much who one day just snaps.

That can play into Vince trying to get Cena back, where he apologizes for putting all this pressure on Cena and he's sorry for threatening to fire him if Punk left as champion; Vince is great when he has to grovel.

Cena wouldn't be turning heel. He'd be a good guy who just reached his limit and blew off some steam by throwing it all back in his bosses face.

[Linsolv]

It's not a heel turn and wouldn't be presented as such. It would be portrayed that Cena had had enough pressure from Vince to be the company guy and to carry the load that the threat that if Punk leaves as champion then Cena is fired, was the last straw. It's positioned that Cena is a good guy but Vince crossed the line with the threat to fire him and Cena just snapped. Everyone knows Cena is a company man and he does so much, and I think it would be realistic if at some point, say when he's threatened with being fired if Punk leaves with the title, Cena just snaps and lashes out at Vince. I think people can identify with someone expected to do so much who one day just snaps.

That can play into Vince trying to get Cena back, where he apologizes for putting all this pressure on Cena and he's sorry for threatening to fire him if Punk left as champion; Vince is great when he has to grovel.

Cena wouldn't be turning heel. He'd be a good guy who just reached his limit and blew off some steam by throwing it all back in his bosses face.

Too art-house in your line of thinking. Wrestling is simpler than that. Is what he's doing a thing a good guy would do, or a thing a bad guy would do? He is how he acts.

Going on a tirade about how sick of helping people you are is something a bad guy would do.

[Moe Hunter]

I would quite like to see Cena as the anti-authority face down the line.
Like he was against Bischoff?

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Yeah I find it hard to believe a guy who screwed over the whole roster and all the fans by taking away their belt would not get booed out of the building. Not to mention making Vince grovel to get him to comeback is also pretty heelish.

[The Shape]

With the suggestion of further Cena intervention aside I love the Punk winning -> MITB cash in idea. Agree that McIntyre would've been amazing but it'll have to be Del Rio really, then he can be Vince's boy in a feud with Cena for Summerslam. Would work so well, and I'd take Punk losing immediately just for the pop when he did get the win. Think I'm actually gonna be disappointed if this doesn't happen now lol. Can really envisage it, kinda like when Edge cashed in on Cena, "this man is cashing in his money in the bank privelege..." Punk going out as a mega face all of a sudden.

[Teh_Showtime]

Like he was against Bischoff?

I didnt watch raw back then. I was purely SD.

[ZMAN]

One time I was purely velocity for two wks.

Cena-Vince. I'm going into this one AGAINST. Just feels like they're trying to take the momentum Punk had from the controversy he stirred up, and giving it to Cena. But maybe that's just my anti-Cena kicking in and this will be the greatest thing in the world.

[Teh_Showtime]

I was purely SD/ECW for like 3 years. After WM XIX I didn't watch a lick of Raw, and was only SD/ECW until around the summer after WM22. It was RVD being WWE champion that got me to watch Raw again since he is/was my favorite wrestler. That is probably why I am indifferent to Cena, because I didn't really have to live with him beating everyone because if I got tired of it I could simply watch SD and not worry about that.

[ZMAN]

Ahh you missed hot lesbian action, the John Cena concert, Kane giving Lita an abortion, and nu-DX. Snitsky, Adamle,

[jhd1]

Two quick questions if I may - although I'm sure it only vaguely fits the thread.

This is mainly for UK members - has anyone ever bought anything from Silver Vision? Any good?

Has anyone watched Very Best of Nitro? Same as above?

SV is the only distributor that seems to be selling Nitro at the moment, and it isn't too bad a price either.

[Fantabulous]

Too art-house in your line of thinking. Wrestling is simpler than that. Is what he's doing a thing a good guy would do, or a thing a bad guy would do? He is how he acts.

Going on a tirade about how sick of helping people you are is something a bad guy would do.

What's more simple than a guy who snaps after years of dealing with the pressure of being the face of the company when the quasi-heel boss goes too far with his threats. It's not like it never happened in real life and is something people can't relate to.

And I never said anything about Cena going on a tirade about being sick of helping people. Cena's problem would be with Vince having put all this pressure on him to be the face of the company that the threat of being fired if Punk leaves with the title, especially after Cena openly said that while he doesn't like what Punk had to say he supported his right to say it, was one push too far and Cena snaps. He isn't turning on the fans or the people but on the promoter, Vince, who he felt crossed the line with the threat of firing him over a guy that Cena doesn't like walking out of the PPV as champion.

Not to mention making Vince grovel to get him to comeback is also pretty heelish.

Except Cena doesn't make Vince grovel. Cena is simply sick of Vince and his games and doesn't listen to the usual Vince overtures, ie: material rewards if he comes back, so Vince feels he has to grovel to get Cena to come back. Vince doesn't have to literally grovel, he just has to man up and admit his mistake in threatening to fire Cena and basically be all humble and apologize for his actions towards Cena. Vince isn't actually grovelling but in his mind he is, and you can go back to that down the road for a Cena vs. Vince feud.

It can even be similar to when Austin turned back babyface for one week in the middle of the Invasion. You had Austin at the bar, watching the Raw guys getting beaten up by the Alliance and over the course of the show he was slowly convinced it was time to bring back the old Stone Cold, and then he came back to end Raw as the returning hero who kicked the crap out of the heels.

Yeah I find it hard to believe a guy who screwed over the whole roster and all the fans by taking away their belt would not get booed out of the building

Hopefully, by the time they bring back Cena, Punk has been such a complete heel that the fans just want him beaten and gone. Hence, when they start the build to bring back Cena, they're understanding of Cena snapping and doing what he did. That Cena wasn't turning on them but he was tired of Vince's BS and snapped.

[Teh_Showtime]

Ahh you missed hot lesbian action, the John Cena concert, Kane giving Lita an abortion, and nu-DX. Snitsky, Adamle,

Actually I saw some of Mike Adamle. I don't think I got to watch Shelton beat HHH 2 times in a row though.

I'd still take Eddie and Beniot over all of that though :D

[Linsolv]

What's more simple than a guy who snaps after years of dealing with the pressure of being the face of the company when the quasi-heel boss goes too far with his threats. It's not like it never happened in real life and is something people can't relate to.

And I never said anything about Cena going on a tirade about being sick of helping people. Cena's problem would be with Vince having put all this pressure on him to be the face of the company that the threat of being fired if Punk leaves with the title, especially after Cena openly said that while he doesn't like what Punk had to say he supported his right to say it, was one push too far and Cena snaps. He isn't turning on the fans or the people but on the promoter, Vince, who he felt crossed the line with the threat of firing him over a guy that Cena doesn't like walking out of the PPV as champion.

So his problem is that Vince expects Cena to do all the hard work like putting on a good show for the fans and treating the fans well. Not confusing at all.

I'm not seeing where you're not getting my point.

As much as Vince does seem to have been playing at least a quasi-heel, but the thing he's mad about is having to be good to the fans.

It's sort of like being mad about being the host to your friends. Playing host is annoying. Getting everyone drinks, trying to make sure they're not hungry, keeping them entertained. It's a dirty job. However, if you tell your friends you're sick of playing host to them, it doesn't mean you have a rational aversion to a hard job, it means you don't want to spend time with them any more.

[Mr Rager]

Two quick questions if I may - although I'm sure it only vaguely fits the thread.

This is mainly for UK members - has anyone ever bought anything from Silver Vision? Any good?

Has anyone watched Very Best of Nitro? Same as above?

SV is the only distributor that seems to be selling Nitro at the moment, and it isn't too bad a price either.

I used to, years ago, and had no problems.

[Fantabulous]

Actually I saw some of Mike Adamle. I don't think I got to watch Shelton beat HHH 2 times in a row though.

I'd still take Eddie and Beniot over all of that though :D

Did you catch 'JBL is poopy'?

[20LEgend]

Two quick questions if I may - although I'm sure it only vaguely fits the thread.

This is mainly for UK members - has anyone ever bought anything from Silver Vision? Any good?

Has anyone watched Very Best of Nitro? Same as above?

SV is the only distributor that seems to be selling Nitro at the moment, and it isn't too bad a price either.

I ordered the rise and fall of ECW a few years ago, they are fine didn't have a problem, they are the the official licensee of UK WWE DVD, so they should be fine.

I haven't seen the Nitro DVD though

[Teh_Showtime]

Did you catch 'JBL is poopy'?

That was fairly recent. I started watching Raw again around the buildup for WM23. I didn't see DX come back/feud with Rated-RKO, or HHH's injury. But I got to the HBK/Cena tag champs part and all that stuff

[Mr Rager]

I missed 'JBL is poopy'.

I'm not sure what it is, but I'm sad that I missed it.

[Fantabulous]

I missed 'JBL is poopy'.

I'm not sure what it is, but I'm sad that I missed it.

Cena and Cryme Tyme spray painted JBL's limo and Cena spray painted 'JBL is poopy' on the hood or the side. Five-year olds the world over roared with laughter.

[djthefunkchris]

With the suggestion of further Cena intervention aside I love the Punk winning -> MITB cash in idea. Agree that McIntyre would've been amazing but it'll have to be Del Rio really, then he can be Vince's boy in a feud with Cena for Summerslam. Would work so well, and I'd take Punk losing immediately just for the pop when he did get the win. Think I'm actually gonna be disappointed if this doesn't happen now lol. Can really envisage it, kinda like when Edge cashed in on Cena, "this man is cashing in his money in the bank privelege..." Punk going out as a mega face all of a sudden.
This is what I am hoping for:

Punk Wins against Cena and everyone going "OMG, Punks going to leave with the title just like he said!". Have commentary all over it... "I can't believe it" "Cena is fired now, that's even worse!" etc. Then the MITB winner comes out, and everyone is "Ahh, yes, he's going to save the belt!!" Hype this up really good.

Then Punk wins again and there goes that saved idea out the drain... Now everyone is REALLY like "Oh Crap!"

That's what I want, and what I want I'm going to get.
So his problem is that Vince expects Cena to do all the hard work like putting on a good show for the fans and treating the fans well. Not confusing at all.

I'm not seeing where you're not getting my point.

As much as Vince does seem to have been playing at least a quasi-heel, but the thing he's mad about is having to be good to the fans.

It's sort of like being mad about being the host to your friends. Playing host is annoying. Getting everyone drinks, trying to make sure they're not hungry, keeping them entertained. It's a dirty job. However, if you tell your friends you're sick of playing host to them, it doesn't mean you have a rational aversion to a hard job, it means you don't want to spend time with them any more.

The point is, that Cena can't believe after ALL he has done for the company, he's going to be fired for losing against someone. In Cena's mind, the Belt only means something if people that earn a chance, get that chance... and he's going to be fired because someone else beat him? That's easy to understand.

I don't even like the idea, as I want a Face Punk for a while, but I can understand the logic there. It's simple, easy to follow, and can be compared to the little storyline we refer to as the Austin/Vince feud. I don't think I've seen this strict divide of face/heel in WWE in years, that you seem to think is the only way people can see it as.

He isn't helping Punk win against the MITB contender, just to get rid of the belt... He's doing it because he feels that Punk deserved it, and because he's fired from the very company he has done so much for. Punk's definately going to be the Face, and he's going to help the face win... That's pretty easy to understand.

[Teh_Showtime]

This is what I am hoping for:

Punk Wins against Cena and everyone going "OMG, Punks going to leave with the title just like he said!". Have commentary all over it... "I can't believe it" "Cena is fired now, that's even worse!" etc. Then the MITB winner comes out, and everyone is "Ahh, yes, he's going to save the belt!!" Hype this up really good.

Then Punk wins again and there goes that saved idea out the drain... Now everyone is REALLY like "Oh Crap!"

That's what I want, and what I want I'm going to get.


We need JR to be in the booth for this match. Hopefully someone beats the crap out of Cole so we can get King/JR.

I remember WM25 during the HBK/Taker match "I just had an out of body experience!". Nobody tells a story like good 'ol JR

[PoisonedSuperman]

I'd have it so John Morrison wins the M.I.T.B but instead of coming right out after the match is over, I'd have them wait until CM Punk walked through the curtain, kind of like "OH MY GOD, he's really taking our title". Then something pushes Punk back through, it was a punch with the microphone from Morrison. He says he's cashing in Money in the bank title shot tonight.

We get in the ring, the match starts. Punk stalls a little before leaving the ring, grabbing the title for the time keeper and walking away through the fans towards the exit as he gets counted out! Robbing Morrison of his M.I.T.B, the WWE of their title and John Cena of his job.

Lots of places to go to from here! You get Morrison saying he deserves a shot, you get Del Rio saying Morrison lost his shot, you get R Truth saying how he's beat them both, The Miz saying he's the number one star now that Cena's gone, Riley saying that he beat The Miz, etc all while the WWE announcers talk about how their is no title. A tournament is set up for August Pay Per View between 8 men for a new WWE title. During the finals CM Punk comes through the crowd and beats up both men, saying that there is only one real World Heavyweight champion and it's him. He makes a challenge for summer slam.

The next night we have a rematch from the pay per view finals, someone wins; maybe Morrison again? Next week Morrison hypes his match putting his interim title on the line against Punk's real one but there is never a word from CM Punk as he doesn't show up again until Summer Slam. After Punk wins at Slam, Cena comes in through the crowd and the two men brawl as it goes off air.

[Stennick]

Unless I missed something John Morrison is out with a neck injury that he just had surgery on last month. I don't think he'll be winning any MITB or WWE Championships anytime soon :)

[sebsy]

Yeah, Morrison isn;t even in the MITB match, and as for the idea of CM Punk coming back to ruin the final of the tournament at the August ppv, leading to Punk challenging someone to a match at Summerslam, when do you think Summerslam is? :D

[jhd1]

I ordered the rise and fall of ECW a few years ago, they are fine didn't have a problem, they are the the official licensee of UK WWE DVD, so they should be fine.

I haven't seen the Nitro DVD though

I used to, years ago, and had no problems.

Thanks LEgend and Mr Rager. I went ahead and ordered the Very Best of Nitro after all :D

[shawn michaels 82]

I fail to see where all the excitment i coming from. It really looks like their doing the usual build up to a Cena win. All the buzz that Punk generated was mishandled by them, imo, and used to build up another situation that super cena has to outcome. And i don't say this because i dislike the man, it really looks like it. Hope i'm wrong.

About the Miz thing: They build up Miz as champion by putting him over Jerry Lawler...i think everyone should have understood by than how they saw him.

[The Shape]

About the Miz thing: They build up Miz as champion by putting him over Jerry Lawler...i think everyone should have understood by than how they saw him.

lol and while champion they put him over Cena in the main event of wrestlemania, I think that's a bigger clue :rolleyes:

[Zeel1]

lol and while champion they put him over Cena in the main event of wrestlemania, I think that's a bigger clue :rolleyes:

What better way to show that he's not a real main event player?! :p

[Teh_Showtime]

A Cena heel turn would actually be possible if it wasn't for Alex Riley :rolleyes:. I thought we could eventually see a double turn because when Miz was WWE champion he had EVERYTHING. He was making way more promotional appearances than heels have ever made, and he was over. The fans wanted to cheer him, and had they turned him, it would give them way more flexibility.

[shawn michaels 82]

lol and while champion they put him over Cena in the main event of wrestlemania, I think that's a bigger clue :rolleyes:

Exactly my point!

Random example: Shelton Benjamin won Triple H twice, iirc. Look at where he is now. :p (I know that "where he is know had nothing to do with that,but it's still an example)

Anyway...how many people have you seen doing that...ever? That's right...not that many.

[DaMegaFish]

I know it has been said a few times now, but providing Punk wins and then the MITB winner cashes in on Punk, and wins, it doesn't really garner much heat if the person is a heel. Lets say ADR wins MITB and winds up beating Punk, yeah, the Chicago crowd is going to eat it up, but outside of that the majority of the audience is going to wake up and realize tomorrow that ADR is still a heel, except he now saved the WWE Title. I feel like if you go the route of having the MITB winner cash in, you have to have it be a face to steal it back from Punk for it to have any lasting effect.

[TakerNGN74]

I don't see any money in the bank winner cashing in at the money in the bank pay per view. They did it last year with Kane and it was awesome but to do it two years in a row would kind of downplay the whole idea. When Kane did it, it was special because it had never been done before but if it happens again two years in a row even with the Raw MITB it would cheapen it. I could easily see Punk winning though and then the Raw MITB winner cashing it in but I just don't think that they will do it two years in a row.

@PoisonedSuperman I don't think that they will have any MITB winner lose it they have yet to do it and I don't think they should because it would make whoever cashed it in and lost look really weak compared to the 8 others who have cashed it in and won. If they did this I would be shocked but the way it has been going since WM 21 whoever wins the MITB wins when they cash it in and I don't think that they will have someone lose it especially if it is on the same night that they won it because then it is wasted.

[Jaysin]

I know it has been said a few times now, but providing Punk wins and then the MITB winner cashes in on Punk, and wins, it doesn't really garner much heat if the person is a heel. Lets say ADR wins MITB and winds up beating Punk, yeah, the Chicago crowd is going to eat it up, but outside of that the majority of the audience is going to wake up and realize tomorrow that ADR is still a heel, except he now saved the WWE Title. I feel like if you go the route of having the MITB winner cash in, you have to have it be a face to steal it back from Punk for it to have any lasting effect.

Rey Mysterio, Kofi Kingston, Alex Riley and Evan Bourne are the faces in the match and none of them seem likely of winning the title anytime soon...

[TakerNGN74]

Rey Mysterio, Kofi Kingston, Alex Riley and Evan Bourne are the faces in the match and none of them seem likely of winning the title anytime soon...

Rey is a darkhorse choice because he has been the World Champion twice but I don't see him winning it.

[milamber]

I will again state my prediction, in case no one heard it the first time.

I think Punk is going to win. Then the money in the bank guy is going to come out and challenge punk (whoever wins MITB).

I predict that Punk will also win that match as well..

And it's all just to drive you nuts.

I think Punk will win. And then he'll be forced be WWE lawyers to appear at Summerslam to defend against Del Rio and Cena (who will also have to return despite being fired) in a Triple Threat. Cena wins and gets his contract back. Punk takes time off and returns in a few months to take down the establishment. And wrestles Vince's doofus son-in-law at Mania (or wins the Rumble and takes on Rock and Cena).

[ShaunGBD]

I think Punk will win. And then he'll be forced be WWE lawyers to appear at Summerslam to defend against Del Rio and Cena (who will also have to return despite being fired) in a Triple Threat. Cena wins and gets his contract back. Punk takes time off and returns in a few months to take down the establishment. And wrestles Vince's doofus son-in-law at Mania (or wins the Rumble and takes on Rock and Cena).

Agree but the boded part will never happened.

[eayragt]

And wrestles Vince's doofus son-in-law at Mania (or wins the Rumble and takes on Rock and Cena).

I think that's a legitimate shout - that's what I though would happen when I saw his speech.

Which assuming Cena doesn't have the title at 'Mania would give us:

Rock vs Cena
Punk vs doofus
World Heavyweight Title match
WWE Championship Match
Undertaker streak match (assuming he's not in a title match)

However, they would have to build up someone strong for the RAW match, as Cena's dominated the brand so much for the last few years at WrestleMania title match without him, Orton, Batista, Triple H, Shawn Michaels doesn't hold much glamour at the moment. But who knows - maybe by then they can build up John Morrison vs Alberto Del Rio as a huge match.

Yeah, okay, Cena's probaly going to have to title then. But I sooo don't want him to. The only reason for him to have it is to sell the match as the "biggest match ever". Which it still wouldn't be.

[Fantabulous]

Miz was not 'put over' Cena at Wrestlemania. The Rock was put over Cena; he just wasn't in the match.

Unless they change plans, it's been pretty obvious since, I don't know, the day after this years Wrestlemania that next year's Wrestlemania will see The Undertaker vs. Triple H III (or II if we're still meant to ignore WM X-7).

A Cena heel turn has been speculated on for years, but Cena is still their biggest cash cow right now. Call me crazy, but I just don't see WWE messing with something like that by turning him heel.

[Teh_Showtime]

I still dont think HHH should get 3 chances. Id rather Del Rio to get a shot. Put Miz\Morrison for the spinner belt and Orton\Rhodes for the WHC.

Sounds like money to me.

[Fantabulous]

Put Miz\Morrison for the spinner belt and Orton\Rhodes for the WHC.

Sounds like money to me.

Not in this universe.

Rhodes lacks the size, both in terms of physique and height, WWE likes out of their top guys and he doesn't have the charisma or mic skills to where they'll overlook that. There's also the fact that, as talented as he is, Rhodes is not main event material, especially on the biggest stage of the WWE. He's good enough for his midcard spot, but that's probably as about as high as Rhodes will go.

Morrison, and I've said this before and I'll say it again, is strictly a 'B' show title challenger; he's the guy to give the heel champion a good match before losing to him clean so the heel can look strong.

This far out, I think the only safe bets for Wrestlemania matches are Rock/Cena and Undertaker/Triple H.

[Teh_Showtime]

Rhodes could be built into a title contender by WM time. I will give you Morrison but there is nobody on SD who would be worthy of going against RKO unless someone comes back, which is likely Y2J

[milamber]

Rock vs Cena v Punk
Orton v Sheamus - World Heavyweight Title match
Barrett or Rhodes v Sin Cara or Bryan - Intercontinental Title
Ziggler v Truth - US Title Match
Miz or ADR v Morrison or Rey - WWE Championship Match
Undertaker v Miz or ADR - streak match
Christian v Big Show

[Teh_Showtime]

Cara vs Rey is pretty much a given. Orton vs Sheamus only if both of them turn.

[Fantabulous]

Rhodes could be built into a title contender by WM time. I will give you Morrison but there is nobody on SD who would be worthy of going against RKO unless someone comes back, which is likely Y2J

If anyone on the current SD is going to get put in a Wrestlemania match against Orton, it'll probably be Seamus because he's a former champion and, most importantly, he has the size and the look they like. In theory, yes, Rhodes could be built into being a credible Wrestlemania challenger for Orton but you could say that about almost anyone on the SD side. Rhodes is good but he's just not good enough for where you want him to be.

They're not diluting Rock vs. Cena by adding a third man.

[Tha Black Phenom]

People discussing Mania bouts this early amuses me. You're gonna get nowhere fast there, because things like a small-built man in Cody Rhodes or a match which has happened 45 times without a concrete idea of an angle around it headlining the show is gonna sound outlandish for many. All the while being the possibility that those things could happen.

[Moe Hunter]

Actually I saw some of Mike Adamle. I don't think I got to watch Shelton beat HHH 2 times in a row though.

I'd still take Eddie and Beniot over all of that though :D

Wouldn't you have missed Benoit's World Title run, feud with Edge, etc?

[Teh_Showtime]

Yes I did, but the Evolution era was unbearable for me. The one thing I remember from that era was when Kane got unmasked. I was only watching around that time because the week before RVD had a title match with HHH for the World Title I think.

[MasterJ]

Raw drew a 2.4 this week. I know it was july 4th but still after the hype on what Punk did this is terrible.

[Zeel1]

Raw drew a 2.4 this week. I know it was july 4th but still after the hype on what Punk did this is terrible.

To be fair, a lot of people also read the spoilers on this one, and many don't really watch a show after doing that.

[Teh_Showtime]

yeah.they were still #1 in every male demographic, so ratings were down across the board.

[Candyman]

Raw drew a 2.4 this week. I know it was july 4th but still after the hype on what Punk did this is terrible.

Not at all. The last time Raw was on July 4th, it dropped from a 4.4 to a 2.6. And that was a LIVE show, so no spoilers. The last time it was taped a week in advance like this week, it dropped from 3.4 to 2.7. So you combine those two factors, and dropping from 3.1 to 2.4 is actually pretty good.

[djthefunkchris]

On the ratings thing... I'm curious about next raw alot more then I was about this one. All points taken, I'm still dissapointed at the ratings.

People discussing Mania bouts this early amuses me. You're gonna get nowhere fast there, because things like a small-built man in Cody Rhodes or a match which has happened 45 times without a concrete idea of an angle around it headlining the show is gonna sound outlandish for many. All the while being the possibility that those things could happen.
/nod, I was thinking along similar lines... Like, wouldn't it be funny if it ends up Shaq vs. Big Show or something like that, as one of the big match's. Maybe Snookie will come back and do another flip? Who knows. All I know is, I doubt The Rock is going to be the only celebrity involved in Wrestlemania.

[ampulator]

Not at all. The last time Raw was on July 4th, it dropped from a 4.4 to a 2.6. And that was a LIVE show, so no spoilers. The last time it was taped a week in advance like this week, it dropped from 3.4 to 2.7. So you combine those two factors, and dropping from 3.1 to 2.4 is actually pretty good.
I agree on the facts, but I have different interpretation. Well, people who missed out because it was July 4th was probably not going to see it regardless of whether it was live. On the other hand, people who missed out because it was not live was because they already knew was going to happen.

[djthefunkchris]

I agree on the facts, but I have different interpretation. Well, people who missed out because it was July 4th was probably not going to see it regardless of whether it was live. On the other hand, people who missed out because it was not live was because they already knew was going to happen.

The only thing I would add, is that I think (because of all the youtube and other sights you go to first, as well as WWE.com, etc.) that maybe the fact that they said Punk was suspended/fired, or whatever to start with, might have gone around faster then the other spoilers, I could be wrong, but I'm hoping that part of the reason for the ratings drop, is because alot of people still think/thought CM Punk was suspended/fired. That would be interesting.

As I said, more interested in next weeks ratings, still dissapointed by this weeks.

[ZMAN]

Raw didn't stand a chance on 4th of July. Come on it's the most bad ass holiday in the world, (non-negotiable, don't even bother trying.) I know I wasn't stuck in the house at 8:00, and I don't even go out that much. They should have just done a best of CM Punk-4th of July-america rules-special or something.

[LoNdOn]

Raw didn't stand a chance on 4th of July. Come on it's the most bad ass holiday in the world, (non-negotiable, don't even bother trying.) I know I wasn't stuck in the house at 8:00, and I don't even go out that much. They should have just done a best of CM Punk-4th of July-america rules-special or something.

But the opportunity is sooooo temptinggggggggggggg :(