The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Teh_Showtime]

The storyline is interesting, but Bret vs. Vince is going to be awful in the ring. Bret can't even throw a punch or walk without wobbling anymore. Yes yes, I know, he had a stroke, it's amazing he can still get in the ring, what do you expect from an old man, etc. WWE made the decision to put this on knowing all of that, and I think it's just going to be ugly. they should have represenctives for each of them. Tyson Kidd/DH smith vs Shane if he wants to come back to the ring or someone else

[Dragonmack]

they should have represenctives for each of them. Tyson Kidd/DH smith vs Shane if he wants to come back to the ring or someone else

Even if they have a tag match, or representatives, this feud doesn't end until Bret has Vince tapping in a sharpshooter in the middle of the ring at Wrestlemania. :D

[djthefunkchris]

I'm not going to make a huge deal out of it, but the idea of being 'Americanized' is just incredibly stupid to me.

Obviously people who grow up in different countries have different cultures, but only in a few ethnicities is it seen as a stigma to be 'more American' than what is considered 'typical.'

Saying that Chavo wouldn't be believable acting a certain way plays into a stereotype. Which, in wrestling, isn't a big deal (or more exactly, it happens so often you sort of get used to it). But it does bother me to hear about this idea of what it means to be 'Americanized.'

So is Chavo not an All-Mexican Mexican? What would make him more Mexican? What qualities would he need to show on screen that would make him a more believable Mexican?

When people answer those questions, more often than not, it's about stereotype.

I don't think your post was offensive, but the entire concept is bad news.

When you define someone like Chavo culturally by what he isn't (he doesn't act very Mexican) then by default you are also defining what it means to be
Mexican. And by definiing that identity within such strict parameters, you limit that culture as a whole.

I could go on, but it touches on much greater issues in entertainment today.

It agitates me, it's like saying "He's not like the other ones". I know that's not the way he probably meant it to sound, but that's how it sounded. It's like the guy that says "I'm not prejudice, I have lots of Black/Mexican/Oriental friends", and in reality they are just people he personally knows. "That's my Mexican friend, he's cool, he's not like most Mexicans!", "He's more Americanized!" Canada and Mexico is both "America" but whatever.

You can substitute Mexican for whatever, but you get my point.

Ampulator, I'm not trying to pick on you at all, you said it was a "Friends" way of putting it. I'd bet they would have answered a bit differently then you did. I have aquaintenance's like that as well, as most people do. On a board like this though, it's nice not to have to worry about it, or should I say put up with it.

Stennick, I knew that.

Dragonmack, I can't see them not have Bret put him in the sharp shooter. I would be very surprised if that doesn't happen, especially after teasing it already.

[CQI13]

Not to beat a dead horse, but I would consider myself "Americanized." With the exception of following the national team of the country I was born, I have 0 attachment to it at this time. I've moved on. The US has given me a better life than I would have ever had elsewhere. Even before I became a citizen, if someone asked me, I would say I was American.

On the subject of the WWE, hopefully it all ends with Bret putting Vince in the sharpshooter, or it will have been a wasted 4 months.

[Tha Black Phenom]

The storyline is interesting, but Bret vs. Vince is going to be awful in the ring. Bret can't even throw a punch or walk without wobbling anymore. Yes yes, I know, he had a stroke, it's amazing he can still get in the ring, what do you expect from an old man, etc. WWE made the decision to put this on knowing all of that, and I think it's just going to be ugly.

I think this can be one time we can not worry about the quality of the match, WWE clearly made this for the hype and the payoff. Of course it's gonna be ugly, no one expects better and they're gonna try to cover the handicaps as much as possible, so we should be able to give them credit on whatever they end up pulling off.

Bret's punches looked awesome last week, it's like he took a page out of a hockey player. Canada represent. :cool:

[James Casey]

Did anyone else think Cena sounded very Southern last night? Borderline Cajun, almost.

[Bigpapa42]

Did anyone else think Cena sounded very Southern last night? Borderline Cajun, almost.

No, you definitely were not the only one. He was definitely trying to do an accept. No clue why.

[Tag01]

A Bret vs. Vince match won't be on the card because it will be a five star match. It will be on the card simply for the appeal of seeing Bret in a WWE ring again.

My point is that won't make it any less painful to watch.

[CQI13]

No, you definitely were not the only one. He was definitely trying to do an accept. No clue why.

Maybe as a tribute to the New Orleans Saints winning the Super Bowl? If not that, not quite sure.

[rd_dbacks01]

Maybe as a tribute to the New Orleans Saints winning the Super Bowl? If not that, not quite sure.

Isn't he filming or just filmed a movie in New Orleans? Maybe they are already trying to hype it.

[Slagaholic]

Isn't he filming or just filmed a movie in New Orleans? Maybe they are already trying to hype it.

If he uses that accent in the film he'll never live it down.

[jesterx7769]

I actually liked Carl Edwards as the guest host and liked that they actually involved him unlike when Schatner (sp?) was on.

[PeterHilton]

Peter there are very few guys I just always agree with and you seem to be one of them man. Once again I couldn't have said that any better myself.

Thanks. Ditto.

It agitates me, it's like saying "He's not like the other ones". I know that's not the way he probably meant it to sound, but that's how it sounded. It's like the guy that says "I'm not prejudice, I have lots of Black/Mexican/Oriental friends", and in reality they are just people he personally knows. "That's my Mexican friend, he's cool, he's not like most Mexicans!", "He's more Americanized!" Canada and Mexico is both "America" but whatever.

You can substitute Mexican for whatever, but you get my point.

Ampulator, I'm not trying to pick on you at all, you said it was a "Friends" way of putting it. I'd bet they would have answered a bit differently then you did. I have aquaintenance's like that as well, as most people do. On a board like this though, it's nice not to have to worry about it, or should I say put up with it.



I honestly don't think amp said anything wrong. Like I said, i just dislike the concept. I don't know what amp's background is so his perspective and experiences may be very different than mine. Plus, it's always a decent conversation to have as long as it's done thoughtfully

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

To me, Bret is being thrown out there AS a "Weak" opponant so that it looks like Vince can handle him. To me, it seems to be working, at least reading posts that say "He looked horrible in there. It's going to be an embarressment!" etc. WWE has, in my opinion, made marks out of all these people making comments such as this. It was VERY obvious that Bret is alot stronger then what they are making him out to be, and he still has ring psychology, because alot of folks are buying into it... "One hit by Batista, and he was through!" That's how it's supposed to look, right now... WWE is in my opinion "Getting one over" on quite a few people that "think" they know what's going on.

I was referring more to him struggling to pull down that gimmicked electrical box, losing his balance, falling and having the pyro explode on him than anything else. I'm worried he's going to look as feeble as Jimmy Snuka did last year at WrestleMania, and that would be a sorry way for him to go out. Really hope that Batista and Cena get added as tag team partners for his sake.

[ampulator]

I think Mark Henry does fine on the mic as well, for promo's or whatever. The raps that they come up with every now and then are never "great", but the person doing it can sound good or bad depending on certain things.

Henry just didn't rap it right. He bassically was just "saying" a rap, as if it were a promo. It was NOT on beat, which made the whole thing feel uncomfortable to me, as I was expecting a rap, not just talking. He probably didn't have a good enough time to "practice". I believe if MVP would have said the same rap, and actually rapped it, it would have "sounded" alot better.

There are rapper's out right now that have worse rhymes then what Mark Henry did, yet are able to make them sound great.... Little Wayne rhymes words that don't rhyme, by pretending like that's just the way he speaks, for example.

I want to add Mark Henry is one of those "big men" that look more big than menacing, and more defensive than offensive. He doesn't make the best heel. He's okay, but as a face, his mic work comes out best. I thought the sexual chocolate gimmick was stupid, but I can't say he didn't learn how to work a mic.

What really demasculinized him for me was when D'Lo Brown did a dieting angle with Mark Henry. It sort of made sense. But it made Mark Look weak and subservient.

On the rap itself, why didn't the have MVP do it instead? I can see at least not cringing me.

On a related note, would considered Mark Henry to have a lower "Acting" Skill in TEW terms?

[HughBatey4]

My point is that won't make it any less painful to watch.

Does anyone remember the PWI Match of the Year that HBK pulled out of Vince?

Sure, Bret is a shell of himsefl, but considering it will mainly be a brawl, it will work. Also, all the rumors that I have seen is if Creative lacks faith in either of them to do a singles, than it will be changed to a tag with Cena and Batista involved.

[jesterx7769]

The problem with Mark Henry for me is he just looks fat now, maybe its just because he's been on tv so long but when i see him I no longer think world strongest man, I see someone who should be on the biggest loser, hes just so slower and hes just...there, and has just been...there, for years.

[djthefunkchris]

I don't know what I would rate Mark Henry's acting at, as I'm torn a bit. I really thought he done great when he was coming after Batista/Rey back when they were tag team partners. I don't know if I like him more as a heel or a face to be honest.

I do know, that I agree with quite a few people about him looking like a big 'ole teddy bear. My wife calls him her baby, when he shows up. Always thinks he looks like he needs a hug from his momma, and that's someone that don't like to watch, nor does she put in any effort at all to keep up with who is supposed to be good/bad. That's how she seen him from the start. She does however, remember him from back in the day pulling those trucks and stuff (Worlds Strongest Man competitions).

The fact that he is a nice guy from many people descriptions of him at place's like the "Arnold Classic" etc. doesn't really help a "Heel" personality from him, but I do think he comes accross pretty good as a heel when he does. The problem might be in more of his moveset moreso then his promo's, etc. They give him moves you would think a big 'ole Teddy Bear would do (Bear Hug for example). Perhaps they need to give him a moveset closer to Batista's? Not a huge jump, but when they have Batista on a roll, and Batista is running with it, he comes off pretty strong and menacing (weather face or heel). I think trying to look big and menacing while gripping someones shoulder while they are bassically sitting there on the mat, or giving them a big old Bear Hug (when they are essentially the same height as you) just doesn't come accross very menacing these days. Perhaps Iron Sheik's finisher or something would come accross more in the way they are trying for?

[djthefunkchris]

I was referring more to him struggling to pull down that gimmicked electrical box, losing his balance, falling and having the pyro explode on him than anything else. I'm worried he's going to look as feeble as Jimmy Snuka did last year at WrestleMania, and that would be a sorry way for him to go out. Really hope that Batista and Cena get added as tag team partners for his sake.

I didn't get to see the whole show, just what I could find on WWE.com and youtube, so all I'm really going by is the stuff in the ring where Batista come out and Vince spit on him, etc. He was about to put Vince in the Sharp Shooter, and the punch's before that looked good IMO. He didn't look "rusty" at all to me. However, when Batista come out, he immediately sold everything Batista did, and that's the only time he looked feeble at all to me. Which makes me believe that was "part" of the deal there. I could be just wishfull thinking, but I looked at that over and over, and that's the impression I had from it.

[ampulator]

I don't know what I would rate Mark Henry's acting at, as I'm torn a bit. I really thought he done great when he was coming after Batista/Rey back when they were tag team partners. I don't know if I like him more as a heel or a face to be honest.

I do know, that I agree with quite a few people about him looking like a big 'ole teddy bear. My wife calls him her baby, when he shows up. Always thinks he looks like he needs a hug from his momma, and that's someone that don't like to watch, nor does she put in any effort at all to keep up with who is supposed to be good/bad. That's how she seen him from the start. She does however, remember him from back in the day pulling those trucks and stuff (Worlds Strongest Man competitions).

The fact that he is a nice guy from many people descriptions of him at place's like the "Arnold Classic" etc. doesn't really help a "Heel" personality from him, but I do think he comes accross pretty good as a heel when he does. The problem might be in more of his moveset moreso then his promo's, etc. They give him moves you would think a big 'ole Teddy Bear would do (Bear Hug for example). Perhaps they need to give him a moveset closer to Batista's? Not a huge jump, but when they have Batista on a roll, and Batista is running with it, he comes off pretty strong and menacing (weather face or heel). I think trying to look big and menacing while gripping someones shoulder while they are bassically sitting there on the mat, or giving them a big old Bear Hug (when they are essentially the same height as you) just doesn't come accross very menacing these days. Perhaps Iron Sheik's finisher or something would come accross more in the way they are trying for?

Well, not every big man always have A* menace. I think Big Show can be a Monster Heel. Batista can do it as well. They don't allow them to do it, because it... *gasp* gets people to CHEER them. You know, because that's so much worse than than them chanting "BORING" or "YOU BOTH SUCK". :p

Mark Henry just doesn't have that mean streak in him.

Sometimes I just don't understand WWE's booking. For example, having Randy Orton attack the McMahon's is NOT going to get the fans to boo Randy Orton. They don't like the McMahon's, except Shane. They literally thought Randy Orton putting people would get him a lot of heel, but instead, it got him pops instead. They pretty much ended the Punt storyline after John Cena no-sold a punt. I also why Randy Orton talks so robotic now. He used to have more of an edge in his voice, but he was probably getting pops.

[djthefunkchris]

Well, not every big man always have A* menace. I think Big Show can be a Monster Heel. Batista can do it as well. They don't allow them to do it, because it... *gasp* gets people to CHEER them. You know, because that's so much worse than than them chanting "BORING" or "YOU BOTH SUCK". :p

Mark Henry just doesn't have that mean streak in him.

Sometimes I just don't understand WWE's booking. For example, having Randy Orton attack the McMahon's is NOT going to get the fans to boo Randy Orton. They don't like the McMahon's, except Shane. They literally thought Randy Orton putting people would get him a lot of heel, but instead, it got him pops instead. They pretty much ended the Punt storyline after John Cena no-sold a punt. I also why Randy Orton talks so robotic now. He used to have more of an edge in his voice, but he was probably getting pops.

No matter what they do (the crowd), if your the "Bad" guy/Heel, and your getting Pops', I would say that your not doing your job very well. Boring and You Both Suck, is a heel reaction by far, when compared to cheering and clapping. Neither is as bad as dead silence (or just rumbling in the crowd that shows they aren't even paying attention) though, which would mean no care by the fans whatsoever.

[ampulator]

I wouldn't say they are a bad heel, because fans are more unpredictable these days. Stuff you MIGHT think they would boo (including smarks) might actually look so good, even to the audience, people just cheer.

And I'm firm believer that there is such a thing as "Bad Heat". It's when they are not booing the guy because he's a heel, but booing him because they think he sucks, or to get the hell out of the ring. It's why stuff like "Boring" and "Change the Channel" gets on air. Seriously, this is NOT what you want people watching at home to see.

Chris Jericho? Good Heat. Edge? Good Heat. Batista or Big Show in the ECW Arena? Bad Heat.

[Hyde Hill]

X-Pac and in part Vicky come to mind as well. Heels getting cheered for being heels simply happens in today's culture. It's the trick of defining the type of cheer/chant and acting accordingly and is easily remedied see for example Daniels simply cussing out the crowd when he was supposed to be the heel vs Morley (,didn't work in the end as Morley did nothing face worthy so it became heel vs heel and then they will cheer "The Original"). Orton punting Vince = Face cheers, Edge beating Cena up = heel cheers, X-Pac = Get of my screen cheers. And as said before the absolutely worst reaction is no reaction at all.

[James Casey]

Vicky remains one of the WWE's most over heels. I rather like that she only gets one or two minutes a week right now, as it allows her to remain over without her being overexposed.

Orton's whole gimmick is that he's incredibly focused on his own goals. Entertaining the crowd, delivering stirring promos and all that aren't what he's there for - he's just a machine.

[Self]

Vickie is awesome. Not the best promo, but the gimmick is fantastic... In short sharp bursts. I can see how some smarks (term used with love) could confuse it with 'go-away-heat' (because she was, you know, interupting the wrestling in a way that made you want her to go away. Intentionally) but X-Pac never got booed anywhere near that loud.

... but yes, Orton punting Vince was a gigantic babyface move.

[ampulator]

Vickie is awesome. Not the best promo, but the gimmick is fantastic... In short sharp bursts. I can see how some smarks (term used with love) could confuse it with 'go-away-heat' (because she was, you know, interupting the wrestling in a way that made you want her to go away. Intentionally) but X-Pac never got booed anywhere near that loud.

... but yes, Orton punting Vince was a gigantic babyface move.

Vicky was one of the reasons I really stopped watching WWE again, during a period when they were milking Eddie Guerrero for all he was worth.

[CQI13]

So milking his death was OK (with Rey Mysterio), but using Vicki put you off?

[ampulator]

Of course not. I hate to say this, but that's a pretty stupid assumption. It's pretty much implied in what I said that I hated what they didn't to Eddie post-death, and Vicky made it worse.

The fact I'm using "milking" already implies I'm against what the WWE did. If I supported it, wouldn't I have said something along the lines of "earning profit through the still-useful Eddie"?

[CQI13]

I don't necessarily see "milking" as negative. Depends on which side you're on I guess. I thought it was tasteless, but no more than HLA or the necrophelia angle, or the Kiss My Ass club.

[Hyde Hill]

Vickie is awesome. Not the best promo, but the gimmick is fantastic... In short sharp bursts. I can see how some smarks (term used with love) could confuse it with 'go-away-heat' (because she was, you know, interupting the wrestling in a way that made you want her to go away. Intentionally) but X-Pac never got booed anywhere near that loud.

... but yes, Orton punting Vince was a gigantic babyface move.

Personally I think she got a mix of both as in heel heat and go away heat. And yeah in the context amp used milking is a negative and a fake necrophilia/ Kiss my ass angle is a lot worse then the real milking of a real wrestlers death. And please stop assuming the worst every time someone posts a short message or everyone has to write essays all the time.

[Ben_91]

Bret Hart should've stayed in retirement. It's sad that one of the greatest wrestlers of alltime would now get destroyed by Vince McMahon in a real fight.

[Hyde Hill]

Real fight????? As stated before I think they are making the Hitman look weak atm so that Vince can come off as a serious threat.

[Self]

I wasn't watching wrestling around Eddie's death, so I've never seen Vickie as anything to do with that. Perhaps that's why I can enjoy her without thinking it's cheap or distasteful in any way. She's her own unique entity to me.

Any time you put Vickie Guerrero in the same league as X-Pac, you're getting an essay. It's happening.

[Hyde Hill]

I wasn't watching wrestling around Eddie's death, so I've never seen Vickie as anything to do with that. Perhaps that's why I can enjoy her without thinking it's cheap or distasteful in any way. She's her own unique entity to me.

Any time you put Vickie Guerrero in the same league as X-Pac, you're getting an essay. It's happening.

That wasn't in reference to Vicky but stuff before that and in other threads. Sorry for not making that clear. Anyways seems everyone is healthy for WM so will be a good show hopefully.

[ampulator]

I wasn't watching wrestling around Eddie's death, so I've never seen Vickie as anything to do with that. Perhaps that's why I can enjoy her without thinking it's cheap or distasteful in any way. She's her own unique entity to me.

Any time you put Vickie Guerrero in the same league as X-Pac, you're getting an essay. It's happening.

Well, I don't think most of that stuff is even on the internet. People were so disguted with it, I doubt anyone would bother to put any of that crap online. But I do have a Wrestlecrap entry.

Here it is (http://www.wrestlecrap.com/classic1.html).

For those that aren't avaible to view the link, here's the pasted version.

WWE, 2006
Text by RD Reynolds
Odds are that you remember exactly where you were when you heard the news on November 13, 2005.

I do. I certainly do.

It was a Sunday afternoon, and I hopped on the net to check my mail and see what was going on in the world of wrestling. There was lots of comedy taking place about this time: Jillian Hall’s mole had just debuted; WWE was in a mad scramble to find a replacement for Jim Ross (yes, again); and Steve Austin, after being asked to job to Jonathan Coachman (yes, as in THE COACH) had just left the company (yes, uh, again). Lots of good WrestleCrap material, to be sure. Stuff that we could laugh about for weeks.

And then…

“WWE is deeply saddened by the news that Eddie Guerrero has passed away. He was found dead this morning in his hotel room in Minneapolis. Eddie is survived by his wife Vickie and daughters Shaul, 14, Sherilyn, 9, and Kaylie Marie, 3.”

Oh no.

My heart just collapsed into my chest. It wasn’t possible; it couldn’t be possible. I had just watched him on Smackdown a couple of days earlier. How could this great star, who seemingly was in the midst of yet another career revival, be taken away from us?
You probably did the exact same thing I did when you read it the first time: scrambled to find some verification that this wasn’t some rumor.

More likely, you were hoping to find verification that it WAS a rumor, a horrible prank gone wrong.

And then, when you saw it confirmed on site after site, you probably, like me, just sat and wept.

All the funny stuff I was looking for, the Austin stuff, Jillian’s mole…it wasn’t so funny anymore. WrestleCrap was out the window; in its place, the most horrible of tragedies.
And yet, ironically, here I am writing about Eddy Guerrero’s passing as a WrestleCrap induction. It is something that thousands of my fellow Crappers voted for. It feels as though I am writing in some bizarre alternate universe, where I am just a total ******* and am mocking a poor soul who has passed on.

Truly, this is not the case. I understand why all of you who voted for the exploitation of Eddy Guerrero did so; I may not agree with it, and I may – no, make that I DO – wish that I had never offered it up as a nominee for the infamous Gooker Award. I always want WrestleCrap to be a home for comedy, a place you can come on Fridays, unwind and get ready for the weekend with a cheap laugh.

Such won’t be the case today. Instead, you'll likely get pissed off and just sit and shake your head in anger. I can almost guarantee you as I work on this, I will.

On the marquee of this site, it says, “The Very Worst of Professional Wrestling.” Truly, this induction is the very embodiment of that tagline. The seemingly never ending exploitation of the late, great Eddie Guerrero is the absolute worst of pro wrestling, bar none.

I just wish I didn’t have to write about it.

But I will. Yes, I will. Because it is important that we remember Eddie, and it is important to see how those involved in WWE decision making remember him. And I hope that somewhere, somewhere within WWE, those that have been involved with this most tasteless of storylines takes just a minute to step back and realize what they’ve put all of their most hardcore fans through. And when they recollect it, I hope they think twice about ever doing something like it in the future.

Before I continue, please note – there will be no pictures or sound clips in this induction. To do so, I’d have to go back and re-watch all of this stuff that made me sick to my stomach in the first place. I will not subject myself – or you – to that again.

*Deep breath*

Here goes.

The day after Eddie Guerrero’s passing, those within WWE were in a total state of shock, devastated more than any of us were, to be sure. After all, they worked with the man on a daily basis, whereas we just watched his exploits on TV.

And let it be known, for the record, that I believe WWE did a very classy tribute to their fallen competitor. The show opened with a fantastic video of Eddie clips, set to the Johnny Cash tune “Hurt.” Following that, various WWE performers talked about their memories of Eddie; nearly all were in tears. In particular, his good friend Chris Benoit couldn't contain himself, and gave a truly fitting eulogy to his long-time running buddy. That...that was so hard to watch. It was something that most assuredly I will never, ever forget.

And then there was WWE's head of creative, Stephanie McMahon. Now I've picked on Steph in the past, dubbing her "Nipple H" and mocking her at pretty much every turn. But on this night, she was like the rest of us: absolutely devastated. She openly wept as she talked about how Eddie's number one priority was his family, and, as a father of a newborn at the time, I was touched by the sincerity of her words.

And then 2006 hit. And I wonder...how could someone who said such things have later greenlighted some of the absolute garbage shown on WWE television?

November 29, 2005: Smackdown:

Sitting on the stage of the Smackdown set is a low-rider. Not just any low-rider, we are informed, but an "Eddie Guerrero Memorial Low-Rider". That's odd, but I guess it's ok.

Or it was, until Randy Orton beat the Undertaker with a tire iron, threw him in the back of it, then crashed it into an electrical area, destroying both the vehicle and presumably killing the Undertaker. Just in case there was some doubt as to what was going on, the following week on Smackdown, Randy Orton said, and I quote, "I killed him. I killed the Undertaker!"

Oh, one other quick thing of note - about this time, the WWE Shopzone website also began running banner ads with Eddie, with the slogan "Viva La Savings!"

Two weeks. All this happened a mere two weeks after the real-life Eddie Guerrero had DIED.

December 18, 2005: Armageddon:

Yet another "death angle", this time in the name of comedy. We guess.

Tim White, long-time WWE official, had hit the skids, and decided to take his own life. He appeared on screen with a shotgun, and then the camera panned away as a blast was heard. Undeterred, the commentary team rambled on about whatever match was taking place, with the "joke" being that White had actually shot his foot by accident.

Knowing how furious fans were at this, White's website, friendlytap.com, posted the following: "Unfortunately, with the recent passing of WWE Superstar (and friend of Tim White) Eddie Guerrero, people have been outraged at what transpired. Please be aware, that sometimes storylines are created over a long period of time. Just because this angle happened after the death of Eddie Guerrero doesn't mean that Tim or the WWE is disrespecting his memory."

I guess it was important that this storyline go on, as it had apparently been planned beforehand. This being such an important storyline, which would lead to huge matches for WWE, it is understandable.

Right?

December 9, 2005: Smackdown:

The Undertaker-Orton feud continues on, as the Undertaker, like a phoenix, rises from the ashes and begins playing "mind games" with his nemesis. One such mind game saw Orton revisiting the Hogan-Warrior magic mirror, with equally craptastic results. Another saw Orton's dad Bob talking like the Undertaker. Captivating stuff.

On this night, however, Undertaker tormented Orton with a video package which included all of his previous victims in the ring. Footage was shown of Taker hanging Big Bossman (yes, with a noose).

You might recall that Bossman, aka Ray Traylor, passed away just a year prior.

February 3, 2006: Smackdown:

Some may feel we are being too broad, pointing out other tasteless angles in this induction. Fine. Let's get back to Eddie then.

Rey Mysterio wins the Royal Rumble, and is headed to WrestleMania to attempt to win the World title in honor of Eddie. As he makes a speech, he is interrupted by Orton, who says, and we quote, "Eddie ain't in heaven. Eddie's down there - in hell." He would later in the interview state that Rey had as much chance of beating him as Eddie had of coming back to life.

I'd like to now quote from my good friend Bryan Alvarez in the February 13, 2006 edition of Figure Four Weekly: "I should note that I have heard from several people who have noted that their friends believe this whole thing is an angle, that Eddy Guerrero is not really dead and is going to be coming back soon. Please think about this for awhile. The thing that really strikes me now is the fact that in the world of WWE, Eddy Guerrero is still a character; a MAIN CHARACTER, in fact. Here is a man who has really died yet is still the top star on both the Raw and Smackdown rosters, and he is being played by Rey Misterio now. It is SO bizarre, and so weird, and really quite uncomfortable."

And it would only get worse, ironically, as Rey achieved his dream and became World champion on WWE's biggest show of the year.

June 30, 2006: Smackdown:

It should be noted, however, that Rey was without question the worst booked champion in wrestling history. He lost match after match, and was never made to look like a threat to anyone. And when we say he lost continually, he didn't just lose to main eventers. He was losing - via clean pins, mind you - to folks like Mark Henry.

And yes, indeed, Rey versus Mark Henry was a feud, one now involving Eddie's nephew, Chavo. Henry summed up Chavo by stating that he was a parasite on the Guerrero name, and telling Chavo point blank, "I spit on the Guerrero name. I spit on you. And if your Uncle Eddie were alive, I’d spit on him, too."

August 04 , 2006: Smackdown:

So Chavo gets involved, and what happens?

If you guessed Chavo, Eddie's nephew, would turn heel, step right up and claim your prize. Chavo's explanation: "Rey Mysterio is a thief. Let me tell you what he stole. He tried to steal the spotlight, my spotlight. He did everything he could to tie himself to Eddie Guerrero because Rey couldn’t stand on his own two feet. I saved you from losing your title over and over. He used the Guerrero name… I’m the Guerrero Rey, not you. Rey, you didn’t just steal Eddie from me, you didn’t just steal him from the Guerrero family, you stole the memory of Eddie from each and every one of those people out there. You’re nothing but a leech living off the blood of the Guerrero name."

And just when you thought it would never end, it didn't - as no less than Vickie Guerrero, Eddie's widow, raced down to the ring and attempted to separate the men.

Well, at least they didn't do something really dumb, like make Eddie's widow a heel or something.

August 25 , 2006: Smackdown:

So now Vickie Guerrero turns heel, clobbering Rey with a steel chair.

I could spend the next 5,000 words explaining how idiotic this was, but really, I feel as though I am beating you over the head with not only the tastelessness of this angle by this point, but the stupidity of it as well.

At least kids weren't involved.

September 15 , 2006: Smackdown:

Rey's son Dominick appears on WWE TV. Remember Dominick? The kid that Eddy claimed was his own son because Rey was impotent? What a great angle that was.

Anyway, Dominick shows up and cheers Rey on, only to later start hanging out with Vickie and Chavo. Amazingly, given everything else, this storyline was basically dropped without further mention.

And when you come to think about it, "amazing" is probably an understatement given the rest of this horrific angle. Heck, I half-expected them to show Dominick taking a piss on Eddie's grave.

October 13, 2006: Smackdown:

Chavo, having been defeated twice by Rey, demands yet another match in this feud that would never end. Rey refuses. Vickie Guerrero then states, and we quote, “The difference between my Eddie and you Rey is that Eddie had balls.”

Chavo would defeat Rey and force him into "retirement." Finally, this horrid feud and storyline was at an end.

December 11, 2006: Smackdown:

Except, of course, it wasn't.

The feud simply switched from Chavo/Vickie vs. Rey to Chavo/Vickie vs. Chris Benoit. And all the other stuff, with Eddie's name on nearly every single telecast and all that crap? All still here.

At this point, I seriously don't know that the tastelessness will ever end. It seems WWE is very happy just continuing this story, dragging a great performer's name through the mud 'til the end of time.

And screw those who say it's in bad taste; there's money to be made.

As I wrap this up, I just want to address those that defend this storyline by saying, “This is something Eddie would have wanted. He would have wanted to be remembered.” Rey himself has even said this in interviews.

But let's be real. What is Rey, a WWE employee, going to say? Or Chavo? Or Vickie, who is attempting to make up for Eddy's income? They're not going to come out and say, "This is horrible, I hate Vince for making us do this." They're just going to do whatever they're told as they attempt to support their families.

Look, I cannot speak for Eddie Guerrero. I never met the man. But I will retell a story of something that Eddie did that may make you think twice about your justification. Before Eddie hit it big in the states, he was a tag team wrestler with a man by the name of Art Barr. Long-time Crappers will recall that this man was WCW’s Juicer, a take-off on the Michael Keaton/Tim Burton flick Beetlejuice. Following his stint in WCW, Barr went to Mexico and became a star as the “Love Machine”, and formed a fantastic tag team with Eddie Guerrero, Los Gringos Locos. The way the duo was tearing it up south of the border had all the major promotions interested in bringing them in. Sadly, it never happened as Barr passed away on November 23, 1994, leaving Eddie a solo act.

Although Eddie was asked on numerous occasions to do angles that would have brought up his deceased partner, he always refused. The one concession he did make, however, was to use Barr’s finisher, the Frog Splash, as his own as a tribute. He never did an interview stating why he did it; he simply did it out of love for his late friend.
Somehow, we doubt that stolen low riders and a heel turn from his wife is something he would have been overly thrilled about.

Obviously, thousands of you weren't either.

[CQI13]

Wow, that Reynolds guy takes things pretty seriously (considering the site he runs).

[lazorbeak]

Wrestlecrap is the most aptly named wrestling media site ever. Didn't it begin as a site to point out comical jobber gimmicks?


"Oooh, that lousy WWE, instead of honoring a guy's memory, they gave his wife a job and made her one of the most over heels in the company! It makes me so mad!"

I especially like the asides about how Undertaker/Orton's feud was generally dumb (even though it had nothing to do with anything) and how they also disrespected Ray Traylor's death: stay on point RD Reynolds, you hack.

With journalism like this, is it any wonder his forums are generally considered some of the worst wrestling forums on the internet? It's a bunch of 15 year old kids who read a bunch of news on some terrible spy-ware infested website and automatically understood the business better than anyone associated with it.

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah but the point he made about Art Barr was a good one imho.

[Blackman]

Err... What's the deal with the WWE site people? I got the choice between frensh and german language, and then you simply can't change it anymore. This is weird. Are they excluding 'foreign' people from the site now?

F that. I want it in English. What we get now is a literally retarded site which doesn't have any info whatsoever. Bullocks.

[Hyde Hill]

And Survivor Series is no more as they announced a re branding at the last conference.

[Bigpapa42]

And Survivor Series is no more as they announced a re branding at the last conference.

Another gimmick PPV in its place. I guess SS was a gimmick PPV already, but I'm sure its likely to be a better idea that whatever it is they will use to replace it. Gah, I the direction of the WWE sometimes...

[MattitudeV2]

Does anyone else think that WWE should use their guest hosts, in the way that SNL uses them.... it's just a thought.

[jesterx7769]

Does anyone else think that WWE should use their guest hosts, in the way that SNL uses them.... it's just a thought.

could you elaborate please?

I'm not initially found of them getting rid of SS b/c I feel the gimmicky PPV in place will probably be dumb and unnecessary like the recent ones they have changed. More than anything I would love for them to bring back the King of the Ring concept and make it important again, bracket tournaments were one of the options in their online survey so im hoping its at least in the running

[Prophet]

They apparently also gave choices to old WCW ppv's like War Games, right? If they do a WWE version of BattleBowl, I will lose my ever-loving mind! (In a good way.)

[Tha Black Phenom]

The full list:

WWE currently has a survey where they ask interest in the following themed events:

Tournament Event (Single elimination "bracket style" tournament where Superstars would compete in multiple matches during the night to become the tournament winner.)

Battle Bowl Event (Random tag-teams compete together - sometimes arch rivals - with the winning teams being put in a 2-ring Battle Royal. The winner could potentially receive a championship title match.)

Money in the Bank Event (The main event "Money in the Bank" match requires Superstars to climb a ladder and retrieve a briefcase hung high above the ring. The winner can "cash in" the briefcase for a championship title shot throughout the year. Qualifying matches earlier in the event will determine participants for the "Money in the Bank" match.)

Legends Event (Match participants would include WWE Legends from the past.)

Roulette Event (Main event match stipulations would be determined by the spin of a roulette-type wheel.)

War Games Event (Teams of 5 collide in 2 cages. 2 participants begin the match with a new participant added every 5 minutes. This process is alternated between teams until all members from both teams are present.)

WWE Draft Event (WWE's annual Draft where Superstars and Divas learn which brand they'll be a part of for the next year. The Draft is often the beginning of new conflicts and matchups.)

Street Fight Event (Main events would include"street fight" matches where there are no disqualifications and pin-falls count anywhere. Superstars often compete in normal street clothes.)

At least half the choices sound somewhat pleasing, as long as it isn't the Street Fight event, Legends event(God, would that be half-assed or what), or MITB which I think should at least be kept for WrestleMania, I'd be fine with the decision. Well.. not completely fine, getting rid of Survivor Series sounds crap, although last year's card was decent compared to the previous ones. It only should've used better building.

[Prophet]

The full list:



At least half the choices sound somewhat pleasing, as long as it isn't the Street Fight event, Legends event(God, would that be half-assed or what), or MITB which I think should at least be kept for WrestleMania, I'd be fine with the decision.

I think a lot of them aren't as appealing as first look might think. The SF between HiaC and TLC will seem bland by comparison, and legends will end up barrel scraping sooner than later. John Cena vs. The Warlord? Where do I order?! Totally agree on MiTB too. And again, it overlaps. A ladder match followed by a ladder match? Seems redundant.

The draft should stay where it is. It's like a yearly reset, and works just right after Wrestlemania. You do it as it's own PPV, and essentially, everything builds to the Smackdown just prior to it, which seems off. Just my feeling, though.

[MattitudeV2]

could you elaborate please?

I'm not initially found of them getting rid of SS b/c I feel the gimmicky PPV in place will probably be dumb and unnecessary like the recent ones they have changed. More than anything I would love for them to bring back the King of the Ring concept and make it important again, bracket tournaments were one of the options in their online survey so im hoping its at least in the running

How they open a show with a skit and at the end they would say live from new york it's Saturday Night.

You could put the city name in for New York and say Live from (city name) it's Monday Night RAW.

[flaviooooo]

Err... What's the deal with the WWE site people? I got the choice between frensh and german language, and then you simply can't change it anymore. This is weird. Are they excluding 'foreign' people from the site now?

F that. I want it in English. What we get now is a literally retarded site which doesn't have any info whatsoever. Bullocks.

This...

Anyone know a way around this? :-(

[The Shape]

SvS is my least favourite of the big 4 so it depends what they do with it really. A PPV dedicated to the draft, to Roulette or to Money in the freakin bank would just be ridiculous.

King of the Ring would have instant name value and is by far the best option. I want them to do war games but I'd like it to have some sort of purpose. Battle bowl sounds retarded. And I like the sound of the street fighting one if Edge wrestles in his jeans and they generally do a lot to promote a very different feel throughout it, doubt they would though so KOTR it must be.

[James Casey]

Paying for a draft? Forget that.

Legends? One or two matches a year is a nostalgia pop. An entire show? Maybe IRS and Steamboat could pull it off, just about, but an entire show? No.

As noted, a Street Fight PPV would just be bad business in between the other gimmicks - especially as Breaking Point has several no DQ matches anyway.

Money in the Bank is an intriguing idea, not the least the possibility of having two winners at the same time, with possibly one cashing in and winning, and the other cashing in immediately and losing. Still, an entire PPV dedicated to that? Thanks, but no - MITB is meant to be the midcard show stealer, not HHH vs. Orton vs....

A show built around a tournament where the winner gets... Oh. A title match. No - tangible prizes please. Leave the #1 contender tournaments for TV.

Roulette? Spin the wheel, make the deal! Coal Miners Glove matches all round! Just no.

Clearly the answer has to be War Games. It's been ten years, WWE. Please, please let us have War Games. Make it brutal. Make it bloody. Make it everything that War Games is supposed to be. It's pay-per-view. I'll forget about you neutering Hell in a Cell and taking away my favourite pay-per-view of the year if you give me balls to the wall War Games matches in its place.

[Bigpapa42]

Does anyone else think that WWE should use their guest hosts, in the way that SNL uses them.... it's just a thought.

I've read that suggestion before and I agree. Use them more as a "host" than a "guest GM".

[jesterx7769]

I thought thats what they were supposed to do anyway asides from the one liner, thats why I have been pretty dissapointed with most of the recent ones but thought Carl Edwards did a good job.

BTW, any one think The Rock will do this at some point to promote a movie? (if he has already sorry but Ive only been watching RAW again for the past month or so)

[masterded]

I thought thats what they were supposed to do anyway asides from the one liner, thats why I have been pretty dissapointed with most of the recent ones but thought Carl Edwards did a good job.

BTW, any one think The Rock will do this at some point to promote a movie? (if he has already sorry but Ive only been watching RAW again for the past month or so)

He has talked about wanting to do something this summer. He was also going to be a host sometime last month, but then had to go to Mexico to promote his movie.

[Franchise22]

i think battlebowl would be epic!!!! war games is a bit too much like hell in the cell in my opinion. but then again, battel bowl is essentially the rumble with a twist....so....

not a fan of any of the other gimmick ideas.

[Candyman]

Don't assume that poll is to replace Survivor Series. They still don't have pay-per-views scheduled for July, so that's likely their first priority, and Backlash and The Bash both need to be replaced with theme events. So we're probably to see two or three of these put in use.

A Money In The Bank event should replace Backlash. It's close enough to Wrestlemania that they can still use the stipulation that you can cash it in at any point up to and including the next Wrestlemania. I was less than impressed when I first saw that as an option, but the fact that they would hold qualifying matches throughout the show makes it viable.

I'd like to see a Tournament event (King Of The Ring) in June or July, ideally with the winner getting a title shot at Summerslam.

I'll pass on War Games. If there's one thing in this world I absolutely never want to see, it's the WWE booking a PG rated War Games match. That would be a nightmare. And if you put it in November after HIAC, that's two cage events in two months. Roulette and the Draft make good Raw specials, but not anything that people will pay for. Legends? Battle Bowl? Please. I guess that leaves a Street Fight event as the only viable option.

[UkWrestleFan]

So, Bryan Danielson gets a new name....Daniel Bryan. Original. It works, though.

[Hyde Hill]

That's not official though as the announcer could have just screwed up. And their names can change again between FCW and WWE.

[UkWrestleFan]

That's not official though as the announcer could have just screwed up. And their names can change again between FCW and WWE.

True, but, if he uses Bryan Danielson, doesn't that mean WWE own the rights to the name? Not sure, though. Do they now own the CM Punk name?

[PeterHilton]

True, but, if he uses Bryan Danielson, doesn't that mean WWE own the rights to the name? Not sure, though. Do they now own the CM Punk name?

No. And no. You can't own the rights to a name if it's A)their real name or b) a name they used before going to the WWE (unless the wrestler were dumb enough to signa contract that specifically turns those rights over).

[UkWrestleFan]

No. And no. You can't own the rights to a name if it's A)their real name or b) a name they used before going to the WWE (unless the wrestler were dumb enough to signa contract that specifically turns those rights over).

Ah right, makes sense.

[Hyde Hill]

CM Punk got in just before they made it official policy to always own the rights of the names plus Heyman went to bat strongly for him to keep it.

Actually under B some wrestlers do this but then they get a percentage or something like that AJ and Joe have something like this with TNA and they tried it with Daniels but couldn't come to an agreement hence why he is just plain Daniels now as they could "trademark" that.

[StudioStu]

Anyone else a little disappointed with the pops that Bret is getting? I was expecting bigger, but it looks like Cena is getting bigger pops than Bret.

[thepeopleschamp]

Well I think its the crowd they are drawing they younger ages, who are not to familer with Bret but I thought he would have gotton bigger also

[ColtCabana]

Tiffany is a horrible choice for a GM, from what I've seen on youtube Abraham Washington would have been much better.

[justtxyank]

Anyone else a little disappointed with the pops that Bret is getting? I was expecting bigger, but it looks like Cena is getting bigger pops than Bret.

I don't think they draw the historically knowledgeable crowd anymore. Most of us stay home.

Edit: It's also been A LONG TIME since Bret was relevant in the WWF. A lot of his WCW work is foreign to people and even the fans of WCW aren't really watching that much anymore. So for all practical purposes, it's been 12 years since he's been overly relevant. As much as the fans of the 90s loved him, we have to realize that time is long gone. It would be like Harley Race returning to WCW in like 2000.

[StudioStu]

I don't think they draw the historically knowledgeable crowd anymore. Most of us stay home.

True, didn't think about that. I was expecting an eruption when it was announced he would wrestle at WM, but I'm sure tons of us erupted at home.

[MattitudeV2]

Tiffany is a horrible choice for a GM, from what I've seen on youtube Abraham Washington would have been much better.

I agree with you but WWE doesn't want to be sexist

[Tha Black Phenom]

Meh, Tiffany's hot. I'll take it.

[jesterx7769]

Didn't watch Smackdown last night, is it worth finding online or just read the write up? I'm assuming nothing big happened but haven't read a write up yet in case something did and I should watch

[cappyboy]

Saw some bits and pieces of Smackdown in between commercial breaks of the Olympic opening ceremonies. Which, BTW, were impressive but too high concept to be entertaining to literal sensibilities. There's just one thing I want to know. Considering I drift in and out of Smackdown most of the time and I have no consistent contact with the indies any more, is there any reason I should have a clue who that woman Punk and Gallows last night was? I have the feeling I'll probably recognize her name in passing once someone mentions it. But I also imagine that's probably the best context I can hope for.

[b0shey]

Reported by: Ryan Clark
» I can now confirm that 'Daniel Bryan' will indeed be Bryan Danielson's new WWE ring name. That was not a mistake at the FCW tapings last night. FCW ring announcer Savannah noted the following during his ring entrance: "Coming down to the ring, from Aberdeen Washington, DANIEL BRYAN!!!!" Who the hell came up with that genius idea?!?! Maybe next they'll throw him on the WWE 'NXT' reality show!

what a horrible choice, should have let him keep Bryan Danielson

Tiffany is a horrible choice for a GM, from what I've seen on youtube Abraham Washington would have been much better.

personally Abraham Washington has grown on me , i watched him in FCW and thought he did a great job as GM should have had him as GM.

[lazorbeak]

Saw some bits and pieces of Smackdown in between commercial breaks of the Olympic opening ceremonies. Which, BTW, were impressive but too high concept to be entertaining to literal sensibilities. There's just one thing I want to know. Considering I drift in and out of Smackdown most of the time and I have no consistent contact with the indies any more, is there any reason I should have a clue who that woman Punk and Gallows last night was? I have the feeling I'll probably recognize her name in passing once someone mentions it. But I also imagine that's probably the best context I can hope for.

Not sure what you mean by "any reason I should have a clue"; she wasn't part of WWE prior to this if that's what you're asking. If you're asking if you should recognize her for her indy work, she was Serena Deeb in SHIMMER.

[ColtCabana]

Not sure what you mean by "any reason I should have a clue"; she wasn't part of WWE prior to this if that's what you're asking. If you're asking if you should recognize her for her indy work, she was Serena Deeb in SHIMMER.

This is how people may know Serena

http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww143/Independents-2009/Serena%20Deeb/104818-R2-02-23.jpg

[cappyboy]

Not sure what you mean by "any reason I should have a clue"; she wasn't part of WWE prior to this if that's what you're asking. If you're asking if you should recognize her for her indy work, she was Serena Deeb in SHIMMER.

In other words, no. Considering I only flit in out of Smackdown and don't have any real indy contact, I shouldn't have any clue who she is.

But yes, I was right to expect I'd know her full name in passing.

[masterded]

Reported by: Ryan Clark
» I can now confirm that 'Daniel Bryan' will indeed be Bryan Danielson's new WWE ring name. That was not a mistake at the FCW tapings last night. FCW ring announcer Savannah noted the following during his ring entrance: "Coming down to the ring, from Aberdeen Washington, DANIEL BRYAN!!!!" Who the hell came up with that genius idea?!?! Maybe next they'll throw him on the WWE 'NXT' reality show!

what a horrible choice, should have let him keep Bryan Danielson

WWE wants to own the names of the wrestlers and I can't blame them for that. Though they could have come up with a name that rolls of the tung better. He is going to need some kind of nick name. Daniel "The ________" Bryan.

[Bigpapa42]

Look over the entire WWE roster and look at how many wrestlers currently work under their own names. Throw out the ones who do so far "second generation" reasons, and then throw out the ones that have been used for 7+ years. You are left with very very few, at least amongst the males.

The WWE rebrands people because they can't trademark and own the intellectual rights to someone's real name. But they can and do with a fake name that they give a wrestler.

I'm honestly surprised that anyone is surprised by this. Its one thing to not like the new name... its another to have not expected it.

I'm not a huge fan of what they've picked, but its at least very close to Danielson's actual name...

Interestlingly, quite a few Divas work under their real names, or just their first name. I guess the WWE just doesn't worry about holding their name rights nearly as much...

[jesterx7769]

Probably b/c the won't get as popular.

[randomfreeze]

Hmmm...well, my brief current day real mod playing when I sign Danielson I always rename him Daniel "The Global Dragon" Bryanson. So I'm just as bad as the WWE I guess.

[Hyde Hill]

I think the E can trademark just the first name though just as TNA has done with Daniels. And yeah it's no surprise and smart business sense to change it to something you can trademark so I never get why people gripe over it other then the quality of the name itself.

[Astil]

Daniel "the Dragon" Bryan has a ring to it.

[lazorbeak]

Interestlingly, quite a few Divas work under their real names, or just their first name. I guess the WWE just doesn't worry about holding their name rights nearly as much...

A lot of the divas that work under their own names were introduced under their own names as diva search contestants or otherwise appeared as themselves first. Maria, Maryse, and Eve were brought in through the diva search, while Melina Perez's first exposure on WWE TV was through Tough Enough.

For divas that come up through the indys, they do tend to re-brand them: Mickie James is probably the biggest exception where they used her real name instead of her old indy ring-name. Beth Phoenix, Katie Lea, and Jilian Hall are all indy signings that didn't keep their real names when they were brought in.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

I know I'm a page or so late, but is there an explanation as to why WWE are making every single event a specialised, concept event? I fail to see the point. I'd get a lot more excited if a Hell in a Cell match was spontaneously announced in the run-up to a Pay Per View, rather than knowing that I won't see one until a specific event.

Also, while I know it was a concept event itself, stopping a prestigious event like Survivor Series seems stupid. I haven't seen it since 2007, I think, but I used to enjoy the five versus five matches (well, I enjoyed the ones when it was the result of good storylines banding together; not Raw superstars randomly attacking Smackdown superstars for a month, with the only reason being that Survivor Series was coming up).

[masterded]

Just a random thing.

They Live is the best movie to ever star a wrestler.

That is all.

[shamelessposer]

I know I'm a page or so late, but is there an explanation as to why WWE are making every single event a specialised, concept event? I fail to see the point. I'd get a lot more excited if a Hell in a Cell match was spontaneously announced in the run-up to a Pay Per View, rather than knowing that I won't see one until a specific event.

It is a strange thing. It's almost like they're making an active attempt to destroy the ability of trademark matches to draw money.

[Prophet]

Just a random thing.

They Live is the best movie to ever star a wrestler.

That is all.

I wanted to argue that yours was a close second to Hell Comes to Frogtown ...

But I'm all out of chewing gum.

Er ... I mean I can't.

[Comradebot]

I wanted to argue that yours was a close second to Hell Comes to Frogtown ...

But I'm all out of chewing gum.

Er ... I mean I can't.

So...

The moral of the story is, we need more movies starring Roddy Piper?

[masterded]

So...

The moral of the story is, we need more movies starring Roddy Piper?

The moral of the story is now after looking up what Hell Comes to Frogtown is I must find this movie.

[Prophet]

So...

The moral of the story is, we need more movies starring Roddy Piper?

Heck yeah. He even made Bodyslam better.

Quick Rick Roberts + Tonga Tom = awesomeness!

[ampulator]

I know I'm a page or so late, but is there an explanation as to why WWE are making every single event a specialised, concept event? I fail to see the point. I'd get a lot more excited if a Hell in a Cell match was spontaneously announced in the run-up to a Pay Per View, rather than knowing that I won't see one until a specific event.

Also, while I know it was a concept event itself, stopping a prestigious event like Survivor Series seems stupid. I haven't seen it since 2007, I think, but I used to enjoy the five versus five matches (well, I enjoyed the ones when it was the result of good storylines banding together; not Raw superstars randomly attacking Smackdown superstars for a month, with the only reason being that Survivor Series was coming up).
The reason is because they saw that Pay-per-views with gimmick matches did better than ones without them.

A Problem with what they are doing, though, is they forget the reason WHY people like these gimmick matches - because they are suppose to be for special occasions.

Making them a routine thing destroys their special nature. On one hand, it's no longer a special occasion, but on the other hand, the WWE makes a bit more money for these gimmick pay-pay-views (for now).

It's not exactly a good long term strategy, but it's not like WWE gives a damn about long-term booking these days - they believe they don't have to do so, because they are at the top, and will remain at the top, so they can do whatever they want.

[BurningHamster]

Just a random thing.

They Live is the best movie to ever star a wrestler.

That is all.

That is true. I was just watching it again the other day and man it's a fun movie.

[djthefunkchris]

The reason is because they saw that Pay-per-views with gimmick matches did better than ones without them.

A Problem with what they are doing, though, is they forget the reason WHY people like these gimmick matches - because they are suppose to be for special occasions.

Making them a routine thing destroys their special nature. On one hand, it's no longer a special occasion, but on the other hand, the WWE makes a bit more money for these gimmick pay-pay-views (for now).

It's not exactly a good long term strategy, but it's not like WWE gives a damn about long-term booking these days - they believe they don't have to do so, because they are at the top, and will remain at the top, so they can do whatever they want.
If what you say is true, I don't think they will over-do the specialness, as most of the PPV's are only once a year. So every month you get a "Special" PPV that has a certain gimmick match theme to it. What would make your statements 100% right (and I'm not sure I dissagree the way you said it already), would be if they were to do the same gimmick match PPV's several times a year.

There is the fact that after a while a gimmick match is a gimmick match..> Meaning that even if it's a different gimmick match, people will probably still burn out on gimmick match's period if they do this for more then a year or two.

[BHK1978]

Late to the party as always but I just wanted to put my 2 cents in about Survivor Series:

Survivor Series and the Royal Rumble were and are my two favorite events that the WWF hold each year. However, once they started to take away the actual Survivor Series matches and give us one-on-one matches, it sort of hurt the event in my eyes. So I am not all that angry that they took it away but part of me wish they had not.

And I really do not want them to do War Games. They would manage to screw it up some how and make me hate my favorite theme match of all time. Because I really do not want to see Mark Henry in War Games.:D

[alden]

I was a huge war games fan. I don't see how it would work in wwe now though. The war games was a match made because the horsemen. You have a heel stable that can't be kept down. You have five faces that have had enough and try to take them down. You would have to have a dominate heel stable to make it work. you can't just have five faces vs five heels. Plus war games was one of the most violent matches around. wwe pg would not be able to pull off a war games.

[dvdWarrior]

If what you say is true, I don't think they will over-do the specialness, as most of the PPV's are only once a year. So every month you get a "Special" PPV that has a certain gimmick match theme to it. What would make your statements 100% right (and I'm not sure I dissagree the way you said it already), would be if they were to do the same gimmick match PPV's several times a year.

Personally, I think 'over-doing the specialness of things' has become a staple of today's wrestling product, and is one of the main reason for any declining interest we see.

I was a huge war games fan. I don't see how it would work in wwe now though. The war games was a match made because the horsemen. You have a heel stable that can't be kept down. You have five faces that have had enough and try to take them down. You would have to have a dominate heel stable to make it work. you can't just have five faces vs five heels. Plus war games was one of the most violent matches around. wwe pg would not be able to pull off a war games.

I agree with this comment quite a bit, but to be honest, I wouldn't mind seeing them bring the War Games back. Sure, they wouldn't do it as good as they used to, but near as I can tell, they're not doing much of anything as good as they used to. Besides, if they brought back the War Games match, they might put out a War Games DVD, and I'd be all for that.

:)

[James Casey]

War Games is on PPV, so not as controlled as the TV environment. Besides, violence =/= blood necessarily. In any case, it's nine months until the show, so if they do go with War Games then the Hart Dynasty, Straight Edge Society, Legacy or whoever have plenty of time to get built up to be the heel side. Heck, Undertaker could reform the Ministry in that time.

As for They Live, it's good, but Princess Bride is better.

With regard to gimmick match PPVs, I agree they're not a great idea, but so long as you limit the gimmicks elsewhere I don't have a problem with it especially. TLC (or even just ladder or table) matches taking place outside the TLC show is pointless, for example.

On Danielson, literally the first thing that sprang to mind when I saw his new name was "Hmmm... Daniel 'the Dragon' Bryan... Could work."

As for renaming workers, it happened in WWF right the way up until 1993 or so and the arrival of Lex Luger, who was too big a name to change. Roughly speaking, we notice it more because workers are being renamed to normal names. Workers less and less get given gimmick names now (Mr. Perfect, British Bulldog, Grandmaster Sexy, Scotty Too Hotty, Mankind, The Rock, even Stone Cold Steve Austin and Hunter Hearst Helmsley) but they still get renamed. All so Vince can rebuild them from scratch, as he ever has done.

You only keep your name if there's no other way - the Radicals, Goldberg, the nWo and WCW/ECW invaders were reliant on that name recognition. Evan Bourne wasn't. Braden Walker wasn't. Punk is a rare exception, AJ Styles might be another - but probably not.

[ampulator]

My problem isn't so muh their renaming - it's giving them crappy ones. Seriously, Daniel Bryan?

[masterded]

As for They Live, it's good, but Princess Bride is better.

I said staring a wrestler not with a wrestler in it.

[cappyboy]

My problem isn't so muh their renaming - it's giving them crappy ones. Seriously, Daniel Bryan?

I know. I mean I get why they went that way. This way they have a name for him that they can control but yet is still close enough that those who are already familar with him still know it's him. The thing I don't get is Bryan as a last name. Why not add the T at the end? Bryant has always sounded better as a last name to me than just Bryan or Bryans.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Anyone watched Raw?

All I'll say is, the blonde chick totally did it for The Rock.

[SaySo]

Anyone watched Raw?

All I'll say is, the blonde chick totally did it for The Rock.


The blonde chick gimmick is that of Nick Hogan.

[SaySo]

I know. I mean I get why they went that way. This way they have a name for him that they can control but yet is still close enough that those who are already familar with him still know it's him. The thing I don't get is Bryan as a last name. Why not add the T at the end? Bryant has always sounded better as a last name to me than just Bryan or Bryans.

I remember last fall telling ppl they should name him Daniel Bryant.

[Astil]

Anyone watched Raw?

All I'll say is, the blonde chick totally did it for The Rock.

You almost owed me a new screen.

[alden]

WOW!!!!!!! the crowd was dead for the springer segment.....that was just hard to watch.

[jgriff3029]

Although, I about died laughing at the Grandmaster Sexy comment.

[CQI13]

Arrest warrant issued for Jericho (Failure to show up at his hearing for the public intoxication charges from a few weeks back).

http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100216/SPT/302160040/Report++Warrant+issued+for+WWE+star

EDIT:

He apparently called in, pled guilty and paid his fine as well:

http://www.local12.com/news/local/story/WWE-Wrestlers-Plead-Guilty-Pay-Fine/FtUyEMivQkOLQ9eCR4qG2w.cspx

[PeterHilton]

So with ECW closing tonight and NXT debuting this is apparently the roster:

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/130047/Roster-For-WWE-NXT.htm

Roster For WWE NXT
Posted by Larry Csonka on 02.16.2010

See who is set for the show…

- According to Pwinsider.com, the following talents are scheduled to be on the roster for WWE NXT:

* FCW Champion: Justin Angel
* Daniel Bryan
* Kaval
* Skip Sheffield
* Joe Hennig
* Brett Dibiase
* Darren Young
* Heath Slater
* Michael Tarver

[jesterx7769]

Read that early, some of them look good. Only thing I'm not fond of is Brett Dibiase b/c im beginning to like Ted and I'm afraid they will side track him with Brett instead of letting him shine on his own as an individual (as of now I see WWE putting him over Rhodes when they eventually feud to end Legacy or Priceless w/e they are)

[James Casey]

So, who will be the 'Pros' who get paired with the 'Rookies'? I'm guessing that people like Matt Hardy, Finlay and Charlie Haas will be in the training roles, rather than HHH and Cena?

[Self]

So, who will be the 'Pros' who get paired with the 'Rookies'? I'm guessing that people like Matt Hardy, Finlay and Charlie Haas will be in the training roles, rather than HHH and Cena?

Hopefully. Cena & Co don't need more screentime or character development. A good 'trainer' role could do wonders for folks careers. Maybe Charlie Haas is an awesomely entertaining guy.

I'm sorta bummed Croft & Baretta got called up before this came about. They strike me as fun guys who'd do well on a show like this. Better than jobbing to Cryme Time at any rate.

[jesterx7769]

Considering this isn't RAW or SD I imagine most of the veteran ECW will their trainers.

[alden]

I noticed it said for season 1. Meaning that they go through the "program" and then get assigned to a brand? Intresting if that is how it works. If it is a "reality" program i wonder how they are going to handle guys like lowki who has been wrestling for 10+ years and was a big name in tna. Wonder if they will address that.

[Hyde Hill]

fire him so he can come back home? lolz. Same goes for Danielson to a lesser extent. Haas, Finley, Goldust and Regal would make good trainers imho.

[jesterx7769]

My guess is at the end of the "seasons" only some will make it (perhaps a tournament for a grand finale? or have do or die matches?) and some will either A) be fired or B) go back to development for possible repackaging

[PeterHilton]

I noticed it said for season 1. Meaning that they go through the "program" and then get assigned to a brand? Intresting if that is how it works.


See..if that's how it works, I'm on board. Because that seems genuinely interesting. I'm worried it's going to be like the last round of Tough Enough where everyone was already playing a character and it was "worked-reality"

[jesterx7769]

Here are some of the pairings: SPOILERS







*Chris Jericho mentoring Wade Barrett.

*Matt Hardy mentoring Justin Gabriel.

*MVP mentoring Skip Sheffield.

*Carlito mentoring Michael Tarver.

*Miz mentoring Daniel Bryan (aka Bryan Danielson) - No, really.

*Christian mentoring Heath Slater.

• CM Punk and Darren Young

Other coaches include R-Truth, and Morrison. The show is also scheduled to run 16 weeks long and will be teams of heels vs faces

[alden]

*Miz mentoring Daniel Bryan (aka Bryan Danielson) - No, really.


WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[djthefunkchris]

fire him so he can come back home? lolz. Same goes for Danielson to a lesser extent.

Never understood why people would want that. I know it's hard to believe, but even if a wrestler DOESN'T like the WWE, it would be nothing but good for them to make a name for themselves with that product... It would open alot more doors then what is already open, and better pay on top of it. Not saying that either of them couldn't get a job tomorrow working for TNA, but if they establish a name in the WWE, you know they would be able to go to a company like TNA with a better contract, and position for that matter.

Just saying, if you like a wrestler, I would think you would be very happy with them getting on a WWE show.

[alden]

most wrestlers would do almost anything ANYTHING to get a shot at the wwe even if it is for a short time. look at what a basic wwe contract pays. 250k is nothing to sneeze at. when you figure a worker on the indy level is lucky to pull down 20k a year. if they work for multiple promotions.

[djthefunkchris]

Here are some of the pairings: SPOILERS







*Chris Jericho mentoring Wade Barrett.

*Matt Hardy mentoring Justin Gabriel.

*MVP mentoring Skip Sheffield.

*Carlito mentoring Michael Tarver.

*Miz mentoring Daniel Bryan (aka Bryan Danielson) - No, really.

*Christian mentoring Heath Slater.

• CM Punk and Darren Young

Other coaches include R-Truth, and Morrison. The show is also scheduled to run 16 weeks long and will be teams of heels vs faces

Actually, think about it. Does Danielson need much mentoring? Would he benefit with Jericho, or would Wade benefit better with someone like Jericho?

To me it makes sense, and I understand where other's might not think so, but I have to state that this is exactly how I would do it. I would pair up my bigger names with the more unknown wrestler's, and the ones that do have a name outside of the WWE I would pair with my lesser talent, perhaps they could learn from each other. ON a reality show, it will probably make Danielson look alot better with MIZ as his mentor (meaning, he might outshine Miz, where Jericho is not going to be easy to outshine).

Just saying, I think it makes sense.

[MattitudeV2]

See..if that's how it works, I'm on board. Because that seems genuinely interesting. I'm worried it's going to be like the last round of Tough Enough where everyone was already playing a character and it was "worked-reality"

That isn't how it's going to be though because every single one of these guys are FCW Talent's with characters coming in.

[cbhcbh]

...and that, my friends, was Vince McMahon laying an Ezekiel Jackson-sized turd on the gravedirt of ECW.

*sarcastically claps*

For what it's worth, Tiffany (Taryn Terrell) was EXTREME-ly hot when she did her run-in. God, that was hot.

Well, I guess the next question is...

Will NXT be in the next SvR game?

[randomfreeze]

Christian/Heath Slater is my favorite combo. What I've seen of Slater I've liked and he's my pick from this group coming up that will find some success....whatever that's worth.

[PeterHilton]

Actually, think about it. Does Danielson need much mentoring? Would he benefit with Jericho, or would Wade benefit better with someone like Jericho?

To me it makes sense, and I understand where other's might not think so, but I have to state that this is exactly how I would do it. I would pair up my bigger names with the more unknown wrestler's, and the ones that do have a name outside of the WWE I would pair with my lesser talent, perhaps they could learn from each other. ON a reality show, it will probably make Danielson look alot better with MIZ as his mentor (meaning, he might outshine Miz, where Jericho is not going to be easy to outshine).

Just saying, I think it makes sense.

I agree that it makes sense but not with your reasoning

What is Danielson's weakness? Mic work, promos, character. So pair him up with the obnoxious heel and then he doesn't have to worry about. He gets over as a character by standing up to the heel that fans love to hate.

[Bigpapa42]

I've liked what I've seen out of a few of those FCW guys. I'm not sure many of them will work out to be stars, but guys like Slater and Angel might work out.

The Danielson-Miz thing is funny. then again, it could work for a good storyline. And honestly, Miz might be able to help out Danielson's mic work a bit.

[jesterx7769]

I actually am looking forward to this. I haven't watched ECW in forever so atlesat this will peak my interest.

As far as the whole reality thing and FCW, remember the majority of WWE's target market doesnt even know what FCW is (or care enough to be bothered) so they can do w/e they want with it. I bet we will get atleast one start out of it, theyre throwing so many people to you at once someone has to hit that they didnt screw up...don't they? (fingers crossed)

[djthefunkchris]

I agree that it makes sense but not with your reasoning

What is Danielson's weakness? Mic work, promos, character. So pair him up with the obnoxious heel and then he doesn't have to worry about. He gets over as a character by standing up to the heel that fans love to hate.

Fair enough, but I was coming from if it was really going to be "reality" based, where they learn how to do promos, matchs, follow storylines etc. If they are going to make it as if they are actually "trying out" to get on a roster, and are going to use storylines and such to tell that story, then it's not really reality, and what you said makes alot more sense.

I was just under the impression that we were going to see them put together match's and such, and Miz and the rest were going to mentor them by showing them the ropes, not feuding with them. I still don't understand why they would feud if they are supposed to be mentor/student thing going on.

[alden]

So who is ki's "mentor" going to be? They said truth is going to be one. If it is truth it is going to be epic. triple x vs three live crew was a good feud in tna. Now Ki will have to be teamed up with him. Classic.

[jesterx7769]

Um because its WWE entertainment? And no one would tune in to see "we are going to walk step by step through a match to show you how to put one on" I guarantee the whole thing turns into who can groom the best student and the heel team will cheat their way to winning matches when the faces preach their vitamins and prayers.

[jesterx7769]

So who is ki's "mentor" going to be? They said truth is going to be one. If it is truth it is going to be epic. triple x vs three live crew was a good feud in tna. Now Ki will have to be teamed up with him. Classic.

R-Truth is mentoring Otunga, I dont think they mentioned who Ki (Kaval) will be. Guess they are saving some for next week or he didnt make the first season. It said online they were going to have 12 teams but decided on 8.

Also, William and Jackson are heading to SD! so no "mentor" role for Regal

[Prophet]

Carlito/Tarver strikes me as bizarre. Unless it's to try to help him with his charisma, or promo skills, but even then, they're two different breeds of animal. Carlito's arrogant and ****y and Tarver's brooding and menacing.

Still not sold on the show as a whole anyway, but I have the benefit of watching FCW weekly. So in that respect, the aspect of exposure for Justin Angel and such is nothing but a good thing. Just not sure this is the way I'd have done it, personally.

[Bigpapa42]

I had heard they had other plans for Low Ki - namely, debuting under a mask and feuding with Mysterio.

[sabataged]

I had heard they had other plans for Low Ki - namely, debuting under a mask and feuding with Mysterio.

That would be sweet. I am a big low ki fan from some of his TNA work back in the day.

[MattitudeV2]

Where do you guys think these 8 FCW'ers will land in WWE...
Bryan Danielson(Daniel Bryan)-
Skip Sheffield(Ryan Reeves)-
Heath Slater-
David Otunga-
Darren Young-
Justin Gabriel(Justin Angel)-
Wade Barrett-
Michael Tarver-

[Marshall]

Carlito would be the best mentor ever - he just be too apathetic to do anything, and the FCW guy will just break loose and do his own thing! I expect great things from Carlito on this show :D

[jesterx7769]

Where do you guys think these 8 FCW'ers will land in WWE...
Bryan Danielson(Daniel Bryan)-
Skip Sheffield(Ryan Reeves)-
Heath Slater-
David Otunga-
Darren Young-
Justin Gabriel(Justin Angel)-
Wade Barrett-
Michael Tarver-

I think after the first season half will stay and half will go, I dont see them keeping everyone but they also wont want to let go of most of the people or will make NXT look bad and most likely get the show cancelled (as Sy Fy is quite unhappy with the ECW rating and NXT needs to up them)

[foolinc]

NXT is still a scripted show, so it's not like The Miz is going to be really mentoring Danielson anyway.

I see The Miz/Bryan as the main storyline of NXT's 1st season. It would surprise me if the finale's main event being Daniel Bryan winning the US title from The Miz. It would be a good way to put over the NXT concept as well as give Danielson the same opportunity that CM Punk got by being the guy on ECW.

[alden]

isn't the point of the show is it is also a non scriped show? They are putting it over as in ring and out of ring "real life" stuff. I am still not sure about the concept. If done right it could work but could also bring down the last "curtain" of keyfabe. Real names....friendships backsatage.....stuff like that.

[justtxyank]

isn't the point of the show is it is also a non scriped show? They are putting it over as in ring and out of ring "real life" stuff. I am still not sure about the concept. If done right it could work but could also bring down the last "curtain" of keyfabe. Real names....friendships backsatage.....stuff like that.

Woof. Vince McMahon hates professional wrestling.

[jesterx7769]

Do you seriously think for a minute it will non scripted or real? Do you still think reality shows are real? WWE is investing way to much money to leave anything to chance just like other TV producers. I imagine the whole concept will be "These are new guys trying to make it to RAW or SD!" instead of just, "hey, look at our new workers...um... please like them and buy their merchandise!" like normal.

[Candyman]

Well, reality shows are real, so yes I do...:p Trust me, those shows are casted well, not scripted. It's simply a matter of finding the right mix of personalities and putting them in situations where they can give you what you want from them. Trying to fake it would be a waste of time and it would be blatantly obvious - if you've ever seen these people outside of their reality shows, you would know it's real because they can't act their way out of a paper bag. I would expect NXT to be much more like Raw/SD! than reality shows...but anybody who says they know what it will be is lying.

Back to that discussion about themed pay-per-views, they've announced some changes to the schedule: Extreme Rules moves to April to replace Backlash, Wild Card replaces Extreme Rules in May, and Fatal Four Way replaces The Bash. In July, they added Money In The Bank. MITB is obvious and I'm guessing Wild Card is the Roulette event they talked about, but Fatal Four Way...really? An entire event of four way matches? Wow, they're really desperate now.

[MattitudeV2]

Well, reality shows are real, so yes I do...:p Trust me, those shows are casted well, not scripted. It's simply a matter of finding the right mix of personalities and putting them in situations where they can give you what you want from them. Trying to fake it would be a waste of time and it would be blatantly obvious - if you've ever seen these people outside of their reality shows, you would know it's real because they can't act their way out of a paper bag. I would expect NXT to be much more like Raw/SD! than reality shows...but anybody who says they know what it will be is lying.

Back to that discussion about themed pay-per-views, they've announced some changes to the schedule: Extreme Rules moves to April to replace Backlash, Wild Card replaces Extreme Rules in May, and Fatal Four Way replaces The Bash. In July, they added Money In The Bank. MITB is obvious and I'm guessing Wild Card is the Roulette event they talked about, but Fatal Four Way...really? An entire event of four way matches? Wow, they're really desperate now.

I would to know who in the blue hell thought of Fatal Four Way seriously are these writers smoking blunts with Vince in his office.

[jjohns44]

Ugh, thank god I dont watch their pay per views anymore. That's way too much. Fatal Fourway, Money in the Banks. And let's have two or three of the same match like Elimination Chamber or TLC!

[Sensai of Mattitude]

Back to that discussion about themed pay-per-views, they've announced some changes to the schedule: Extreme Rules moves to April to replace Backlash, Wild Card replaces Extreme Rules in May, and Fatal Four Way replaces The Bash. In July, they added Money In The Bank. MITB is obvious and I'm guessing Wild Card is the Roulette event they talked about, but Fatal Four Way...really? An entire event of four way matches? Wow, they're really desperate now.

That's rather cringeworthy.

[Hyde Hill]

Never understood why people would want that. I know it's hard to believe, but even if a wrestler DOESN'T like the WWE, it would be nothing but good for them to make a name for themselves with that product... It would open alot more doors then what is already open, and better pay on top of it. Not saying that either of them couldn't get a job tomorrow working for TNA, but if they establish a name in the WWE, you know they would be able to go to a company like TNA with a better contract, and position for that matter.

Just saying, if you like a wrestler, I would think you would be very happy with them getting on a WWE show.

I agree, I was making a joke hence the lolz.

[Hyde Hill]

BTW how many non themed ppv's does this leave???? Just Mania??

[Tha Black Phenom]

The top three, pretty much. Mania, SS and the Rumble.

And now the MITB's off the upcoming Mania, probably inevitable but it still sucks seeing this transpire.

[Hyde Hill]

Well the Rumble is a gimmick ppv kinda so that leaves Mania and Summerslam. Man I am all for gimmick ppv's but in moderation, say 3/4 per year now its all of them which automaticly makes them lose their specialness.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

You've just gotta wonder who thought having 10 gimmick PPVs a year was a good idea.

[DaMegaFish]

You've just gotta wonder who thought having 10 gimmick PPVs a year was a good idea.

Probably the people who saw the buy rates increase on the gimmick PPV's so far.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

Probably the people who saw the buy rates increase on the gimmick PPV's so far.

Interesting.

I think it's an awful idea, and everyone else in this thread seems to. I figured that would be the general opinion among wrestling fans.

[DaMegaFish]

Interesting.

I think it's an awful idea, and everyone else in this thread seems to. I figured that would be the general opinion among wrestling fans.

Maybe long term, yes. I am like most other people who think a few gimmick PPV's aren't bad, but this is a bit overkill. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the buy rates start to drop again in a year or two. Yeah, a Hell In A Cell themed PPV is cool, but eventually it gets to be just another PPV like the old ones used to. I think in general its killing the spirit of what the PPV's should be, and instead of the shows having stories that drive to the PPVs, the PPV's are creating the stories for the shows to drive to now. Does that make sense? Anyway, its going to kill some of the interest in what match John Cena and Randy Orton are having this month, because now we know if its at Hell In A Cell well its probably a HIAC match.

Not a fan, but I'm guessing a few guys at the top saw increases in buys for the few PPV's that have been gimmicked and this is the result.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

I think in general its killing the spirit of what the PPV's should be, and instead of the shows having stories that drive to the PPVs, the PPV's are creating the stories for the shows to drive to now. Does that make sense? Anyway, its going to kill some of the interest in what match John Cena and Randy Orton are having this month, because now we know if its at Hell In A Cell well its probably a HIAC match.

Not a fan, but I'm guessing a few guys at the top saw increases in buys for the few PPV's that have been gimmicked and this is the result.

This was exactly my thought. It completely ruins the spontaneousness of gimmick matches; a Hell in a Cell match used to happen once a year, and before spoilers came along I never knew when they were going to happen. The epic excitement of the announcement alone was brilliant. By knowing when it's going to happen, it just ruins that aspect of it.

Like you said, concept PPVs in moderation can work; I used to think that TNA's Lethal Lockdown (I think it was called that?) was a really good idea. But WWE have overdone it, both in quantity and the prestige (for the lack of a better word - the rarity?) of the matches being turned into concept PPVs.

[lazorbeak]

Changing gears but staying on the general topic of the thread, I've gone back and watched some early "Attitude" era stuff starting with Montreal and I just watched Summerslam 1998. I never watched this stuff while it was happening, as I didn't give up on WCW until early 1999 when the whole Rock/Mankind feud was up against the NWO post-fingerpoke reunion.

Anyway, here's some random thoughts on the period:

Definitely a more high impact style, with moonsaults, back suplexes, piledrivers, and other stuff you don't see on TV. I understand why a lot of that stuff got cut, but it'd be nice to see on PPV's at least. Terry Funk doing a moonsault onto two chairs on WWF TV is pretty crazy and probably the best example of how much WWF's product at the time owed to ECW.

At the same time, Austin was really innovating the current "main event" style that requires guys to go lower impact and really build a story. Obviously Austin was mostly known as a brawler but he had some underrated technical skills even after the neck injury, and his psychology was excellent. His matches with HBK, both with Dude Love, and Undertaker at Summerslam were all great. His match with Kane was decent, but not really at the same level.

Despite obviously being the top guy, Austin was off TV enough that he really managed to give some of the spotlight to DX, who were pretty incredibly over. Also to anybody that didn't see The Rock becoming a big superstar, I just have to question how big of a mark you were at the time. Rock's facial expressions and ability to get the crowd hot was just unbelievable. He took a really weak elbow drop and made it a huge move as a heel!

There was a discussion in the TEW 10 boards about Jeff Hardy's charisma, but for an example of bad charisma, look at WWF in 1998. Steve Blackman, Dan Severn, DOA (the Harris Brothers). A big part of that is facial expression but it's partly body expression, too. All of these guys moved like robots and never expressed any emotion, no matter what. None of them got over. Mark Henry only managed to leave his default expression when making eyes at Chyna, which I guess fueled the "Sexual Chocolate" gimmick, since there is literally nothing else he could do other than "be a big guy."

Sable was ridiculously over in this time period. It's a shame none of that heat ever really went to Marc Mero, as he wasn't half-bad in the ring once he'd given up the high-flying act.

Guys that could've been bigger:

D'Lo Brown: good charisma, big guy, the whole European Champion thing was great for him, but he needed to adjust his move-set if he ever wanted to be a big deal. His moves were athletic but they were mostly cruiserweight-style moves, and for a guy that was about 6'3-6'4, he needed to be built as stronger. I'm really worried Kofi Kingston ends up in the same boat, because he reminds me of D'Lo a lot.

Kurrgan and the Jackal: somebody brought up Cyrus in the ECW thread, and he was just great, but WWF completely missed the boat on him. He had a great monster heel in Kurrgan but because of politics or whatever Kurrgan did nothing but beat up jobbers and Jackal got his release. Kurrgan for some reason was made into a comedy babyface in some attempt to make sure he never drew any money ever. When I recognized Kurrgan in the new Sherlock Holmes I couldn't help but thing wrestling lost a guy they never even tried to push.

Ken Shamrock: I know he was King of the Ring and eventually won the IC title, but he could've been a huge star for WWF. Sure he wasn't all that big or all that great on the mic, but the fans believed he was a crazy bad-ass and the reactions when he "snapped" were comparable to any pop from anyone not named Steve Austin.

I can see why there's so many fans with rosy memories of this era, as it does make for pretty exciting stuff, but there is a lot of terrible stuff you'd never see on Raw today. A ten minute DOA/Legion of Doom match on Raw is just brutal. Jeff Jarrett and Jim Cornette's NWA revival was mercifully short-lived but replaced by the equally painful Double J and Tennessee Lee combination. Goldust had literally nothing to do, turned heel on Marlena to get her off TV, and by Summerslam is just doing brief spots where he's a straw man of christian values who hates WWF's content. Vader is completely wasted, but he was already halfway out the door. Bradshaw was wrestling every week but literally no one cared about him, although part of that might have been he kept a hilariously dumb mustache for a really long time. The "brawl for all" was really stupid and just as much a waste of television as the diva search, but at least it used guys actually under contract and succeeded in putting Bart Gunn over as a tough bastard. Of course, that didn't go anywhere and he was punked out by a guy that had gone 3 scripted rounds with marc mero when butterbean knocked him out in one round in a non-scripted fight.

But even with the negatives, stories developed much faster then they had (or do today), and probably the most interesting thing is how little structure there was at the top. Aside from Austin and Undertaker, nobody had been WWF champion as of April 1998. HBK, Bret, Sid and Nash were all gone and there were no "proven" draws on the roster. It actually made for much better television than WCW, where Flair, Hogan, Savage, Sting, Nash, Bret and Luger were all multi-time world champions but the 1998 crowd was giving Goldberg bigger pops than any of them.

[Bigpapa42]

Great post, Lazer. Going back and rewatching is great, although I have yet to focus on a specific era as you have here.

[MrCanada]

I just want to mention how amazing CM Punk is (as a heel especially) his promo during SmackDown right now is such proof of that. He gets legitement heel heat, not cheap, not X-Pac, and not "you are just beating the guy we like" heat.

I think its been a long time since theres truley been a heel (sans Jericho maybe) who can get as much heat on his own.

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah SD is kicking ass again especially with Edge back, now just to move titsa back to raw and have a little less taker and it will be truly must watch again. Too bad Zeke will come in and ruin it lolz. And I actually like big men but I like those that can go! So not him.

[Lostrelms]

Found this on Lordsofpain.net... kinda cracked me up a bit..

John Morrison Talks About Miz Mentoring Danielson, ECW Ending and His New DVD
By Marc Middleton
Feb 19, 2010 - 3:45:08 AM


- IGN.com has a new interview up with John Morrison. Here are a few highlights:

On his new DVD: "The usual Superstars DVD release is a 3-disc career retrospective and they wanted to try a new format. It's a one-disc engaging thing that someone can watch all in one sitting. I think they decided to have me be the experiment/prototype for it to see how the format would do. To see if it could be interesting or if it's going to sell. I think that was the thought behind it."

On ECW ending: "I think it's the end of an era. But the ECW that people fell in love with in the late '90s has been gone for a while already. What I think ECW presented was a big opportunity for a lot of WWE superstars. Definitely me. It revitalized my entire career when I moved to ECW. I became the ECW champion, and it's when I started tagging with The Miz. CM Punk debuted on ECW. That's where he started also. So I think it's going to be sad to see it go. But the show that's replacing it, the NXT show – I think hopefully it's going to do the same thing for a lot of people. It's going to give a lot of people an opportunity. I can't remember everyone on there, but I know that Bryan Danielson is on there. He's going to be one of the new guys on the show. So I hope it will give people the chance to make it big in WWE just like ECW did."

On The Miz mentoring Daniel Bryan: "Yeah, when I saw that, I was at the ECW taping, and I actually saw Miz. He didn't know either until he saw the graphic on the screen. That he was the "Pro" and Bryan Danielson was the student. I walked by and said, "Pssh, he knows more than you do." And that's pretty much what everyone thinks. It's gonna be interesting and I think that's the point of it."

[sabataged]

This is completely off topic but I have tickets to Elimination Chamber tomorrow and wow I am pissed. Not only will this be by far the worst WWE event I ever been too, but it is looking to be one of the worst PPV's I have ever seen. Right now there is only 4 matches on the card with a rumored 5th match. The EC matches are going to have to take a hour each just to make it the 3 hours.

[Prophet]

This is completely off topic but I have tickets to Elimination Chamber tomorrow and wow I am pissed. Not only will this be by far the worst WWE event I ever been too, but it is looking to be one of the worst PPV's I have ever seen. Right now there is only 4 matches on the card with a rumored 5th match. The EC matches are going to have to take a hour each just to make it the 3 hours.

Or, it goes to the other side of the spectrum, and becomes December to Dismember or Surrender or Upender or whatever they called that abomination ... the sequel! It may end an hour early, it may disappoint with nonsensical matches thrown in, and may result in completely lackluster finishes ... but it does have the bonus of the revenge of Curly's gold! :D

[Gabbo]

I think Morrison is a little bitter that everyone realises Miz was the talented one. Morrison is increasingly looking like a formulaic spot monkey and without his deadpan arrogance (as a heel), he doesn't really have alot of personality..

:D

[lazorbeak]

I think Morrison is a little bitter that everyone realises Miz was the talented one. Morrison is increasingly looking like a formulaic spot monkey and without his deadpan arrogance (as a heel), he doesn't really have alot of personality..

:D

Seriously? He's the first choice of WWE's new stars to get a DVD put out, he's one of the top babyfaces on Smackdown, and he has a great look. He's probably just giving a friend a hard time.

[Wrestling Century]

Who do you guys think are the best young prospects in WWE? I think that these guys are:

The Miz: Great Charisma and works well as a heel.

John Morrison: Works great as a heel and a face and has great charisma and athleticism.

Ezekiel Jackson: Great look, but he just needs to improve his in ring skills IMO.

Ted Dibiase (Jr.) and Cody Rhodes: Great mic work and charisma, with pretty good in ring skills.

Jack Swagger: I personally think that he has what it takes to become the next great technical wrestler that's in the same vein as Bret Hart and Kurt Angle.

Remember that this is all IMO, so no arguments!

[Self]

One Word. Dudebusters. ;)

Although I have to admit, I'm growing tired of their lack of antics. Croft and Barreta should be doing awesome, fist-pounding skits on a weekly basis.

So excited for NXT I can barely stand it. Miz & Danielson is genius.

[The Masked Orange]

I'm conflicted over NXT. I'm gonna have to watch it before I right it off though.

[Self]

I'm conflicted over NXT. I'm gonna have to watch it before I right it off though.

Why would you write anything off before you've tried it once?

The thing I'm looking forward to the most is that I have very little idea what it's going to be like. That excites me. I want to be surprised. I want something DIFFERENT (although it's sounding almost like an Ultimate Fighter clone right now). I'm bored of WWE's wrestling format (and by extension TNA's more frenetic adaptation of it) I want something fresh, something new, and NXT might be it.

Maybe. I don't know. Hence the excitement.

[Hyde Hill]

Who do you guys think are the best young prospects in WWE? I think that these guys are:

The Miz: Great Charisma and works well as a heel.

John Morrison: Works great as a heel and a face and has great charisma and athleticism.

Ezekiel Jackson: Great look, but he just needs to improve his in ring skills IMO.

Ted Dibiase (Jr.) and Cody Rhodes: Great mic work and charisma, with pretty good in ring skills.

Jack Swagger: I personally think that he has what it takes to become the next great technical wrestler that's in the same vein as Bret Hart and Kurt Angle.

Remember that this is all IMO, so no arguments!


I disagree on Dibiase and Cody except the decent in the ring part, for me they are bland and boring as sin. Zeke needs to improve on his ringwork bigtime hes not even on Tista level. Miz is just a little bit better on the mic then Morrison at the moment because they are letting him and Morrison works better as a heel. But Morison is an uppermidcarder on Smackdown with a DVD and Miz is a midcarder on RAW with two belts. I would say Morrison is above Miz atm. Morrison is the best alround talent followed by Swagger who needs to work on his mic skills and then the Miz third from this list. IMO

[masterded]

Why would you write anything off before you've tried it once?

There are plenty of reasons to write things off before you try it. I have never shot myself in the arm; I don’t need to try it to know it is something I wouldn’t like. Though obviously that is an extreme example.

Speaking of NXT I am quite interested in what Daniel will be using for his finisher. I hope it is still The Cattle Mutilation not enough people have submission finishers in the WWE right now.

[BHK1978]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

[jesterx7769]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

exactly.

[masterded]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

It just doesn’t bother me (though I am one of them weirdoes who know how dumb the RR is yet I watch it and love the RR Challenges) he clearly has natural charisma and timing on the mic and sure he isn't great in the ring but he always seems to be improving.

[The Masked Orange]

I don't think I'll like NXT, for a similar reason to why I didn't like Tough Enough, and why quite a few people did not like ECW.

But meh, what do I know? :D

[BHK1978]

I am going to give NXT a chance, but that is only because I do not watch anything on at that time on television.

I was not a fan of ECW and what it became. However, with a new name I am willing to see some of these new wrestlers and hopefully it will be a good show.

[Self]

I don't think I'll like NXT, for a similar reason to why I didn't like Tough Enough, and why quite a few people did not like ECW.

But meh, what do I know? :D

Curious now as to what the reason is. Not sure what ECW, Tough Enough and 'what NXT probably is' all have in common. Lack of stars? NXT has Jericho.

I am hoping NXT is kayfabe, or at least I hope it's not blatantly business-exposing like Tough Enough. I know everyone knows it's fake, and I like Tough Enough for what it was, but I'm hoping they're trying a new concept for telling wrestling stories, as opposed to doing a simple reality show. I hope they work the crap out of it.

[randomfreeze]

Why is being from the Real World a bad thing? I love that Miz was on the Real World and it's one of the reasons why I put up with his catchphrases and such. I almost wished they played off it more, but it's too late now with the direction they have gone with him.

No young guys have me super excited. I can't think of anyone who would start facing guys higher on the card and looking competitive against them would make me root for them more. Everyone Wrestling Century listed is just newer guys that are on TV a lot. Miz and Morrison aren't really rookies to this whole thing either anymore...they've been on TV for like six years.

But to be positive, I'm going to watch NXT, cheer for Slater, and hope this gives us some sort of fresh perspective on wrestling.

[PeterHilton]

Call be narrow minded but I will never be able to take the Miz seriously. To me he will always be the guy from The Real World.

exactly.

You're being narrow minded.

He was a 23 year old guy who loved wrestling his whole life before he went to UPW. And then Tough Enough. And then OVW.

He's not a seasoned worker, but he's certainly not the worst new worker that has showed up in recent years. He has good charisma. That's the reason he showed up on RW in the first place and why the producers kept bringing him back for challenges. And he knows how to work a crowd.

It's a work. What kind of background does someone need to have before you can 'take them seriously?' NCAA champion? Years in the indies? Former strip club bouncer?

Because if you look up and down that roster, I'm not sure how Miz's background is any less legitimate than the typical worker being brought up through the E's current development structure.

[BHK1978]

You're being narrow minded.

He was a 23 year old guy who loved wrestling his whole life before he went to UPW. And then Tough Enough. And then OVW.

He's not a seasoned worker, but he's certainly not the worst new worker that has showed up in recent years. He has good charisma. That's the reason he showed up on RW in the first place and why the producers kept bringing him back for challenges. And he knows how to work a crowd.

It's a work. What kind of background does someone need to have before you can 'take them seriously?' NCAA champion? Years in the indies? Former strip club bouncer?

Because if you look up and down that roster, I'm not sure how Miz's background is any less legitimate than the typical worker being brought up through the E's current development structure.

I agree his background is not any less legitimate, my problem with him is I did not like him on the RW/RR Challenges. Now I am not sure if he was playing to the camera while on those shows but to me he came across as a jerk.

Is this a valid reason? Who knows, but it is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

[masterded]

You're being narrow minded.

He was a 23 year old guy who loved wrestling his whole life before he went to UPW. And then Tough Enough. And then OVW.

He's not a seasoned worker, but he's certainly not the worst new worker that has showed up in recent years. He has good charisma. That's the reason he showed up on RW in the first place and why the producers kept bringing him back for challenges. And he knows how to work a crowd.

It's a work. What kind of background does someone need to have before you can 'take them seriously?' NCAA champion? Years in the indies? Former strip club bouncer?

Because if you look up and down that roster, I'm not sure how Miz's background is any less legitimate than the typical worker being brought up through the E's current development structure.

Heck his is better then a lot of people’s way of ending up a wrestler. Here is a guy who always wanted to be a wrestler and worked his way into the WWE. I like that better then the story a good number of them have. You know the ones who are failed athletes who either got injured or couldn’t make it as a pro and had to settle for wrestling. At least it was his dream and not a fall back plan.

[PeterHilton]

I agree his background is not any less legitimate, my problem with him is I did not like him on the RW/RR Challenges. Now I am not sure if he was playing to the camera while on those shows but to me he came across as a jerk.

Is this a valid reason? Who knows, but it is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

You're not sure? So..you're still not sure if the people on those reality shows are working the camera or being encouraged to 'play characters.'

OK :rolleyes:

EDIT: Actually, if you didn't like him on those shows, and his character is basically an arrogant Hollywood douchebag, wouldn't it make it easier to at least appreciate his work as a heel? I mean..his is actually playing someone you're supposed to dislike.

[masterded]

I agree his background is not any less legitimate, my problem with him is I did not like him on the RW/RR Challenges. Now I am not sure if he was playing to the camera while on those shows but to me he came across as a jerk.

Is this a valid reason? Who knows, but it is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

I always thought he came across as a nice guy who was having fun on the challenges; heck him and Mark were my favorite guys on the challenges for a while.

[Hyde Hill]

I agree his background is not any less legitimate, my problem with him is I did not like him on the RW/RR Challenges. Now I am not sure if he was playing to the camera while on those shows but to me he came across as a jerk.

Is this a valid reason? Who knows, but it is my opinion and I am sticking to it.

That's somewhat similar to saying for instance I didn't like Johnny Depp in 21 Jump Street so I won't like him in Platoon/ Ed Wood.

[BHK1978]

You're not sure? So..you're still not sure if the people on those reality shows are working the camera or being encouraged to 'play characters.'

OK :rolleyes:

Some people play their personality up, while others that is their true personality. Richard Hatch is a jerk (family site must not swear) in real life, what you saw on television was not him playing to the camera it was him.

But I guess people couldn't possibly be jerks in real life and they all play it up for the cameras.:rolleyes:

[PeterHilton]

Some people play their personality up, while others that is their true personality. Richard Hatch is a jerk (family site must not swear) in real life, what you saw on television was not him playing to the camera it was him.

But I guess people couldn't possibly be jerks in real life and they all play it up for the cameras.:rolleyes:

I guess, and I know this is just your opinion, but like I said: what difference does it make? He's a ****y heel. You're not supposed to like him.

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah but he is supposed to "like disliking him" that's the difference he is pointing out I think. He actively dislikes him in a get of my screen way.

[jesterx7769]

My problem is anytime I see him I think "Hey, its the loser from the Real world and other reality tv shows" not, "hey its a WWE wrestler" doesnt matter what your background is, its how your perceived. People were bodybuilders, sweet, I never knew them as that.

It's like if Pacman Jones became a fulltime wrestler, I would never see him as a WWE wrestler, I would see him as the guy that briefly played football before f'ing things up.

[Prophet]

Who do you guys think are the best young prospects in WWE? I think that these guys are:

The Miz: Great Charisma and works well as a heel.

John Morrison: Works great as a heel and a face and has great charisma and athleticism.

Ezekiel Jackson: Great look, but he just needs to improve his in ring skills IMO.

Ted Dibiase (Jr.) and Cody Rhodes: Great mic work and charisma, with pretty good in ring skills.

Jack Swagger: I personally think that he has what it takes to become the next great technical wrestler that's in the same vein as Bret Hart and Kurt Angle.

Remember that this is all IMO, so no arguments!

I'd like to add a different name to that list. Drew McIntyre. I say this from a bias point of view, as I got to meet him this past Thursday, and he's genuinely a nice guy. But he's also talented as hell. I know the whole gimmick is him being the future franchise, but I think he's got the stuff to do it.

One Word. Dudebusters. ;)

Although I have to admit, I'm growing tired of their lack of antics. Croft and Barreta should be doing awesome, fist-pounding skits on a weekly basis.

So excited for NXT I can barely stand it. Miz & Danielson is genius.

If they did half as much with the Dudebusters as their personas offer them to, those kids would be massive successes. Especially if they introduce Mrs. Beretta, driving them to the arena. lol

[Astil]

Seriously? He's the first choice of WWE's new stars to get a DVD put out, he's one of the top babyfaces on Smackdown, and he has a great look. He's probably just giving a friend a hard time.

Or putting over a storyline. Go check out WWE.com's NXT page. They comment on how Bryans may be better than Miz iirc

[Sensai of Mattitude]

Is there genuinely only four matches on EC?

[jesterx7769]

I thought I read somewhere last week they were going to add a 5th but I guess not. Keep in mind the EC matches typically go half an hour or long so its the same amount of PPV time, just less matches.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

I thought I read somewhere last week they were going to add a 5th but I guess not. Keep in mind the EC matches typically go half an hour or long so its the same amount of PPV time, just less matches.

Only two of them are Elimination Chamber matches though, aren't they? So an hour or so on EC matches, and then around another two hours (likely a bit less) that need to be filled with two other matches. Surely more matches will be added to the card.

[jesterx7769]

I'm pretty sure they are doing something with the NXT roster since they flew all of them there.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

Oh right, that should be pretty cool then.

[jesterx7769]

I'm not trying to defend them but with only four matches I expect some sort of surprise, if not then they it would be a big let down since I couldnt see both EC's going an hour (just waaay to long) but I've never ordered a WWE so my thoughts dont really matter anyway :P

[Wrestling Century]

Who do you guys think will win the chamber matches?

[Sensai of Mattitude]

I'm not trying to defend them but with only four matches I expect some sort of surprise, if not then they it would be a big let down since I couldnt see both EC's going an hour (just waaay to long) but I've never ordered a WWE so my thoughts dont really matter anyway :P

Yeah, I feel exactly the same. I won't be ordering either, but if there's genuinely just four matches then that would suck.

[jesterx7769]

Who do you guys think will win the chamber matches?

IDK, I thought the choice was obvious when they first annoucned them but I dont think so.

On RAW...

It appers Cena will face batista at WM as part of the whole Bret thing so that wont be a title match so Cena is out.

Orton seems pretty involved with Legacy so I dont really see him doing it.

I didnt think they would have Shamus headlining WM as the champion but who else would he feud with since thats all he has going?

I see either Shamus or Triple H winning then fighting each other at WM

On SD!...

Thought Jericho might win it before to feud with Edge but the Edge vs. Jericho is strong enough I think they can delay Jericho getting the title and have Edge challenge for it at WM then feud with Jericho after the win (or loss) he is also part of NXT, which means he will be spending even a little bit of time on the show. This could be a plus or a negative, on the plus side, the young worker would get to work with the WWE champion, on the negative side, it may give Jericho too much to feud on since if he wins it will probably be him vs Edge ad WM, however having a protege could help him cheat his way to winning

I dont see Taker winning as it looks like he will face HBK at WM and that doesnt really need to be a title match and I dont see Taker ending his streak before he retires as he only has another one or two of them and putting over HBK doesnt do anything. Taker is dominant and rarely does someone get a clean win over him, I see this being WWE's way of getting the title off him without hurting him.

R-Truth wont win

Punk, Morrison, Mysterio. Its kind of a toss up between them.

Punk has a lot of momentum being the leader of his own "stable" and he has feuded with everyone not being stuck on someone so I could see them giving him another run, and considering he is a heel and Edge is a face that could be a good WM match.

Morrison has been getting pushed a lot recently and its clear they dont want him in the IC picture or he would be facing McIntyre for it since they had a good feud. I could see him being a transitional champion since getting that one World title would elevate him, plus he has the DVD and has been doing alot of media for it and could be mainstream (appearing on Good Morning America or something where others cant) but I think his shot is the slimmest of the three.

Mysterio has been in the title picture but has been unable to pull it off and they have hyped that, winning would give him a big "I finally did it" boost and eventhough him and Edge are faces I think it would be okay since Edge would play heel for the match "sorry man, but I gotta do it" and then feud with Jericho.

SD pick Punk or Mysterio

[Candyman]

Yeah, there's no way another match won't be added. The average EC match goes 35 minutes, figure another 5 minutes for entrants and 3-4 minutes of hype and previews for each...those two matches could fill up 85 minutes total. Keep in mind that no pay-per-view has ever gone the full three hours and they never will, so you're looking to full another 80 minutes or so. Even if the other two matches go 20 minutes each (and that's unlikely), that's still at least 40 minutes of non-wrestling time to full...there's just no way. I could see a tag team title match added, something with Edge and/or Batista, or maybe a couple matches with the NXT guys since they're there.

As for who will win the EC matches...IMO, SD! is easy. I wouldn't say it's a lock, but I'd be shocked if Jericho didn't win. A month ago I wouldn't have expected them to have the title on the line in the Jericho-Edge match, but I think it's a no brainer that match will happen at WM and Edge is guaranteed a title shot, so there you go. Raw is a little more of a question mark...clearly Triple H will be fighting HBK at Wrestlemania, but will they make that a title match? I could see it, maybe that's how Triple H convinces HBK to come back and accept the match. It looks like it'll be a Legacy triple threat at WM, and the title won't be there. I don't see Sheamus being involved in a WWE title match at Wrestlemania.

I'm probably thinking alittle too outside the box here, but here's my pick for the WWE title: a la Edge last year, Batista takes out someone - Cena? Kofi again? - and forces his way into the match and wins the title, setting up a title match at WM against Cena. Sure that match doesn't need the title, but it wouldn't hurt. People seem to forget that the title match is supposed to be the biggest one on the card. When it's not, you get crappy main events like last year. Undertaker-HBK didn't need the title, but it should've had it, because it should've been the main event.

[Franchise22]

if i was booking the SD portion heres how tonight goes in chamber.....then on SD....then at WM......

Mysterio is found laidout eary in PPV....

michaels finds teddy and makes his case for the chamber now that a spot has opened, teddy begrudginly agrees.

Teddy: "you didnt happen to have something to do with this did ya playa"
HBK: "no i swear on it."
Teddy: "if i find out you did, the penalty will be severe...."

Chamber match itself comes down to HBK, taker, and jericho. Jericho falls victim to sweet chin music and its down to taker and micahels. michaels wins.

FWD to SD!:

micaheals comes out and cuts promo as new champ, is in the middle of suggesting a match with taker for title....when....

Edges music hits and states he could choose michaels or (insert wwe champ). which could ruin is chances at taker rematch. Edge states hes made up his mind and he has choosen.....*teddy longs music hits*


Teddy says he has evidence of who took out mysterio at the chamber. Video shows HBK laid out mysterio. Teddy reminds hbk that the penalty would be severe if he was found to have been part of the assault. he strips hbk of belt and a triple threat match between Mysterio and the other final 2 from chamber (taker and jericho) will face off for title and spot at mania. HBK will not be a part of the match.
Teddy: "sorry playa"

HBK leaves in another crazed state...
edge says he will make his decision after that match.

SD! ME match for title sees hbk interfering hitting Sweet chin music on taker. the impact cause taker to spin around and land right into a code breaker. 1-2-3. jericho wins title!!!!! Edge closes out show with an appearance and letting jericho know he has choosen him!!!

RAW: HBK cuts heel promo about his actions and asking if he finally has the deadmans full attention. Taker does his lights off/on appearance and chokeslams hbk, gets on mic and gives the "at mania, you will finally rest...in...peace...."

Mania: another great match. many near falls for hbk. finish sees hbk hit multiple and consecutive sweet chin musics on taker (think macho/warrior finish from mania years ago). Deadman finds a way to kick out, scores the eventual win. michaels goes nuts and obliterates taker for a number of minutes, leaves ring in a crazed state.

RAW: after mania, is suspended indefinently for his actions post match on the greatest stage the wwe has....(this gives micheals time off, takers beating gives him time off)

[justtxyank]

WWE treats the titles like a 2 dollar whore.

Spoilers in white...
John Cena wins world title in Elimination chamber and then Vince comes out with Batista and says Cena has to fight Batista right now! Batista wins the title in like 30 seconds.

[jesterx7769]

Um and what was the point of that? (In regards to the Spoilers w/o going into it)

[Tha Black Phenom]

I guess to set what the title feud at Mania will really be, I suppose. I don't like the move but.. I'd sure like to see where they go with this.

[justtxyank]

Um and what was the point of that? (In regards to the Spoilers w/o going into it)

Shock value? More in white...
I guess to further the feud between Cena/batista that will lead to their match at Mania? Vince was getting revenge on Cena I guess for supporting Hitman?

[Tag01]

Just curious, i've never followed a live PPV in this thread. It's considered a spoiler even after it happens? I'd like to complain about how lame the Divas bit just was, but don't want to break protocol. :)

[justtxyank]

Just curious, i've never followed a live PPV in this thread. It's considered a spoiler even after it happens? I'd like to complain about how lame the Divas bit just was, but don't want to break protocol. :)

I don't know really. I wouldn't think so, but I also don't want anyone to bark at me for posting results so I spoilered them.

[masterded]

I don't know really. I wouldn't think so, but I also don't want anyone to bark at me for posting results so I spoilered them.

If someone goes into a WWE Thread after or during a PPV and get mad over results then they have a problem. So I would say just post them normal so people can talk about them like normal.

[Tag01]

Alright. I guess I'll wait until the clock strikes midnight before I post in full color on the "spoilers." And I just read about NXT for the first time, I'm super disappointed! I thought they should change the name of ECW but I really loved the idea of having like a feeder league type show. It was honestly my favorite show every week. Lame.

[Tag01]

If someone goes into a WWE Thread after or during a PPV and get mad over results then they have a problem. So I would say just post them normal so people can talk about them like normal.

I agree. So here goes: the diva's bit was super lame! Why amend a pointless match at the last minute to another pointless match?

[justtxyank]

I agree. So here goes: the diva's bit was super lame! Why amend a pointless match at the last minute to another pointless match?

I can only think someone was hurting or something? I mean it doesn't make any sense.

[PeterHilton]

Um and what was the point of that? (In regards to the Spoilers w/o going into it)

It's a publicly traded company making sure that their world title main event in the biggest event of the year will involve two of (if not the two most) over and marketable performers in the company...AND a well known angle that will probably draw in tons of viewers on its own.

I mean...keeping the belt where it was would've been frickin nuts.

[Tag01]

It's a publicly traded company making sure that their world title main event in the biggest event of the year will involve two of (if not the two most) over and marketable performers in the company...AND a well known angle that will probably draw in tons of viewers on its own.

I mean...keeping the belt where it was would've been frickin nuts.

I agree. Why even put it there?

[jesterx7769]

I just don't agree with having Cena win then have him lose 30 seconds later, I would have rather seen Batista enter the EC some how or have Cena defend the title on RAW only to lose to Batista by cheating or w/e then. If they want Batista/Cena for WM fine, I dont think any of us really saw Shamus keeping it long anyway.

[PeterHilton]

I just don't agree with having Cena win then have him lose 30 seconds later, I would have rather seen Batista enter the EC some how or have Cena defend the title on RAW only to lose to Batista by cheating or w/e then. If they want Batista/Cena for WM fine, I dont think any of us really saw Shamus keeping it long anyway.

Because havign Batista come out to 'take advantage' of a weakened Cena puts him over as a heel and furthers the McMahon/Batista partnership.

Seriously..it's a pretty effective swerve and makes sense on a lot of levels.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

Has anyone seen the "Mysterious" guy who posts the results in the 411 coverage before the PPV? Called the Batista thing, called there would be no women's title match... Spoiler in white (Don't quote) Called Jericho to win the SD chamber with HBK's interference.

[masterded]

Because havign Batista come out to 'take advantage' of a weakened Cena puts him over as a heel and furthers the McMahon/Batista partnership.

Seriously..it's a pretty effective swerve and makes sense on a lot of levels.

Yeah they also want the Vince screwed Cena thing.

[PeterHilton]

Has anyone seen the "Mysterious" guy who posts the results in the 411 coverage before the PPV? Called the Batista thing, called there would be no women's title match... Spoiler in white (Don't quote) Called Jericho to win the SD chamber with HBK's interference.

YES!!!

This guy is the single best reason to read the PBP on 411.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

YES!!!

This guy is the single best reason to read the PBP on 411.

I hope he does it for WM... They still taking bets for WM matches in Vegas?

[Tag01]

Wow! That Mysterious guy must work for the E. Crazy. So where will they go with this? Who will Jericho wrestle at Mania?

[masterded]

Wow! That Mysterious guy must work for the E. Crazy. So where will they go with this? Who will Jericho wrestle at Mania?

Edge as Cena vs. Batista is set up to be the other title match.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

Wow! That Mysterious guy must work for the E. Crazy. So where will they go with this? Who will Jericho wrestle at Mania?

Jericho/Edge, Taker/HBK, Batista/Cena, Punk/Rey Rey, HHH/Sheamus.

It was pretty obvious that would be the finish after what happened in the RAW side of things.

[Moe Hunter]

Mr T, I don't think that "Mysterious" guy has any edge regarding the second thing you mentioned (in white). I called that from the Royal Rumble.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

Mr T, I don't think that "Mysterious" guy has any edge regarding the second thing you mentioned (in white). I called that from the Royal Rumble.

He called the whole card, I'm inclined to think he's an insider. Called the match change for the divas, the unnanounced Miz-MVP match... Spot on.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Am I the only one who finds the SmackDown! EC to be the best Chamber match in a long while? Not solely because of the ending(:D) but there were quite the awesome spots during the match. From Punk's lines to some of Rey's spots to the suspensful Taker/Jericho confrontation.

[masterded]

He called the whole card, I'm inclined to think he's an insider. Called the match change for the divas, the unnanounced Miz-MVP match... Spot on.

either that or he drives a DeLorean.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

He called the whole card, I'm inclined to think he's an insider. Called the match change for the divas, the unnanounced Miz-MVP match... Spot on.

Has he done this long?

If he is an insider would the WWE not be aware of who it is?

[PeterHilton]

Mr T, I don't think that "Mysterious" guy has any edge regarding the second thing you mentioned (in white). I called that from the Royal Rumble.

You're not getting it. He doesn't "predict" or do ridiculous fantasy booking type posts.

He posts in the comments section the day of the PPV and tells you what happens on the card. Not just W/L's but suprise appearances, surprise appearances, the whole bit.

He almost HAS to be an employee of the WWE; he predicted Sheamus' win, the Edge appearance..I could go on.

In the years that I've read the site, I can count the times he's been wrong on one hand.

[GDE71]

Did you notice that both EC went with a theme of pin a guy and you were the next to be eliminated.

[PeterHilton]

Has he done this long?

If he is an insider would the WWE not be aware of who it is?

A couple years.

How much do you think the people at the E read sites?

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I've read a few times that they have guys to read the dirt sheets, and employees have gotten into trouble over leaks. Don't know if thats true or not.

It seems if a guy is giving way the results before they happen, thats gonna cost you some buys.

[CQI13]

I know they fired someone in Smackdown a few years ago over a leak. They thought it was him, so they gave him (and only him) some bogus information. When that information was published, they knew he was the leak.

[nucleardonkey]

Did anyone else notice at the very beginning of Taker's entrance just as his music hit he was heard very briefly saying something? I couldn't make it out but I know it wasn't something normally in his entrance.

Also it was funny as hell to see Taker break character during his entrance to put himself out after his jacket caught on fire.

[ColtCabana]

Wow! That Mysterious guy must work for the E. Crazy. So where will they go with this? Who will Jericho wrestle at Mania?

He called the whole card, I'm inclined to think he's an insider. Called the match change for the divas, the unnanounced Miz-MVP match... Spot on.

It's Vince :D

[dvdWarrior]

Did anyone else notice at the very beginning of Taker's entrance just as his music hit he was heard very briefly saying something? I couldn't make it out but I know it wasn't something normally in his entrance.

Also it was funny as hell to see Taker break character during his entrance to put himself out after his jacket caught on fire.

Dunno if this has been posted in here yet, but I figured I might as well show it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay8HqvRpR6I

[Prophet]

Dunno if this has been posted in here yet, but I figured I might as well show it here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ay8HqvRpR6I

Doesn't take long, does it?

I didn't see that when it happened. Jimminy!

[Moe Hunter]

You're not getting it. He doesn't "predict" or do ridiculous fantasy booking type posts.

He posts in the comments section the day of the PPV and tells you what happens on the card. Not just W/L's but suprise appearances, surprise appearances, the whole bit.

He almost HAS to be an employee of the WWE; he predicted Sheamus' win, the Edge appearance..I could go on.

In the years that I've read the site, I can count the times he's been wrong on one hand.
Please point to me in Mr T's post where it explains all that extra information. Of course I don't "get it" based on only knowing that he called two things - one which was remarkably obvious.

BTW, if this guy's so good, why do Dirt Sheets run any other stories at all? Why not have him be the sole voice, since he's the only right one?

[Self]

I've been hearing folks calling the HBK interference for weeks. Just like they'd been calling Edge's Rumble appearance for weeks. WWE is becoming slightly more predictable these days, which I guess is better than constantly trying to swerve folks and messing up storylines in the process (like with last year's Matt/Christian switcheroo). I'm a little shocked to see folks gossiping in apparent awe of an "insider" though. Never quite saw the appeal of spoilers.

Just finished watching EC. Okay show.

- RAW Chamber was fine. Set up the Cena/Batista & Dibiase/Orton matches for Wrestlemania. Not sure how Triple H/Sheamus will do without the belt, but the match was a fine opener. Ticked the boxes.
- How can anyone say Vickie Guerrero isn't awesome? The heat she got was white hot. She was talking about the Diva's, and people cared enough to loudly boo her. Fantastic heel.
- Diva's were fine. I like seeing the girls, and I dig Layla's new uber-lackey persona.
- The Miz is AWESOME! His angle with Daniel Bryan is going to be great from the looks of it.
- CM Punk rules.
- I thought the Smackdown Chamber fell off a cliff when Morrison first came in. I cheered for him throughout, but for the first few minutes he was all over the place. Clunky.
- Jericho also rules.
- For a second, I thought Morrison was going to pin Undertaker. I was so gutted when he got the knees up.
- Good finish. Like I said, I'd heard a bunch of folks predicting it, and I wanted it to happen. I didn't like The Undertaker as Champion. Not a huge fan of Jericho with the belt either (he's cooled off these past few months) but it works into the Edge thing, so that's fine.

It was fine.

[The Shape]

I like that the two mania title matches are gonna be fairly unpredictable. Shame Jericho/Edge almost certainly won't finish the show, but then again, Cena/Batista really, really should. Just gay that they ruined it two years ago at Summerslam.

[Hyde Hill]

Didn't really know which thread this belonged in but since it was a WWE event, there was a TNA sign in the front of the crowd and got on camera quite a few times most notably in the Miz vs MVP match before it gets visibly taken away. The first sign, pun intended, of the times of change lolz.

Anyways decent but not great ppv, last years chambers where better imho but the smackdown one was good as expected.

[Tag01]

Yea, that's fine that the Michaels finish was predictable. None of you called the women's title match turning into a tag match. None. None of you called the suprise US Title match either. Why the hate, this Mysterious guy is clearly in the know. No need for any of you get get your E-peen's in a tangle. He's got to be an employee.

I liked EC mostly. I wasn't that familiar with Vicky Guerrerro and didn't get involved in the earlier debate about her, but there is no denying she got possibly the most of the entire night, interfering in a freaking Diva's match. And is DiBiase or Orton supposed to turn or is it just heel on heel bad blood?

[Self]

Yea, that's fine that the Michaels finish was predictable. None of you called the women's title match turning into a tag match. None. None of you called the suprise US Title match either. Why the hate, this Mysterious guy is clearly in the know. No need for any of you get get your E-peen's in a tangle. He's got to be an employee.

I'm just kinda surprised at the apparent "OMG he must be an insider!!!!" reactions. In an age where Chris Jericho is twittering about getting arrested and Matt Hardy is on Youtube asking fans whether he should wear tights or cargo pants, why do we care that a mysterious message board poster may or may not be an 'insider'? Celebrity worship run amok. :)

Besides, folks who reveal spoilers should be hunted down and beaten with brooms, not applauded. They spoil things. It's right there in the name.

I liked EC mostly. I wasn't that familiar with Vicky Guerrerro and didn't get involved in the earlier debate about her, but there is no denying she got possibly the most of the entire night, interfering in a freaking Diva's match. And is DiBiase or Orton supposed to turn or is it just heel on heel bad blood?

Currently both heel, but Orton should be turning babyface. For reasons that escape me, WWE are trying to keep him heel for the time being. Orton could /should be a GIGANTIC babyface. The crowd popped huge for his entrance. There were tons of RKO chants. He seems to be mainly fighting Heels right now, so I don't know why they haven't turned him. No way fans are gonna cheer Cody or Ted over him. Maybe they're just saving the turn for the build to Wrestlemania.

[FlameSnoopy]

Has anyone seen the "Mysterious" guy who posts the results in the 411 coverage before the PPV? Called the Batista thing, called there would be no women's title match...

Any links?

[PeterHilton]

Please point to me in Mr T's post where it explains all that extra information. Of course I don't "get it" based on only knowing that he called two things - one which was remarkably obvious.

BTW, if this guy's so good, why do Dirt Sheets run any other stories at all? Why not have him be the sole voice, since he's the only right one?

He posts in the comments section of the live play-by-play article the day of the event. That's it. He doesn't write stories. IIRC he doesn't even post on the site's message boards.

Really, if you don't check the site regularly enough to know the comments section is pretty f'n entertaining, you would have no idea who this guy is.

But everyone who does read the comments regularly during the live PBP knows who Mysterious is.

The columnists mention him/her every once in a while, but I'm sure if the site tried to make a big deal out of it, the insider would be found pretty quik and it'd be done with.

[Sensai of Mattitude]

Completely random musing... As somebody who only recently started watching wrestling again, I'd like to say that Orton's new music completely blows in comparison to Burn In My Light.

[PeterHilton]

I'm just kinda surprised at the apparent "OMG he must be an insider!!!!" reactions. In an age where Chris Jericho is twittering about getting arrested and Matt Hardy is on Youtube asking fans whether he should wear tights or cargo pants, why do we care that a mysterious message board poster may or may not be an 'insider'? Celebrity worship run amok. :)

In a world full of web writers and fans talking out their ass, someone who actually knows what's going to happen comes off as cool. Especially because they are posting in a really obscure section of the site.

EDIT: Here's the live PBP thread. Do a search for Mysterious and you'll find his posts. Not that big a deal, but it keeps the commentors entertained.

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/130571/Click-Here-To-Join-411s-LIVE-WWE-Elimination-Chamber-Coverage.htm

Currently both heel, but Orton should be turning babyface. For reasons that escape me, WWE are trying to keep him heel for the time being. Orton could /should be a GIGANTIC babyface. The crowd popped huge for his entrance. There were tons of RKO chants. He seems to be mainly fighting Heels right now, so I don't know why they haven't turned him. No way fans are gonna cheer Cody or Ted over him. Maybe they're just saving the turn for the build to Wrestlemania.

His last face turn was a disaster. A face turn here would probably be as well.

He gets face pops because of how he's portrayed as a heel...so he can't go full-fledged babyface. And in this environment, I'm not sure how the E would do with an anti-hero type. They're better off just leaving him as is actually and allow the fans to respond to him based on his opponents.

[Tag01]

I'm just kinda surprised at the apparent "OMG he must be an insider!!!!" reactions. In an age where Chris Jericho is twittering about getting arrested and Matt Hardy is on Youtube asking fans whether he should wear tights or cargo pants, why do we care that a mysterious message board poster may or may not be an 'insider'? Celebrity worship run amok. :)

Besides, folks who reveal spoilers should be hunted down and beaten with brooms, not applauded. They spoil things. It's right there in the name.



Currently both heel, but Orton should be turning babyface. For reasons that escape me, WWE are trying to keep him heel for the time being. Orton could /should be a GIGANTIC babyface. The crowd popped huge for his entrance. There were tons of RKO chants. He seems to be mainly fighting Heels right now, so I don't know why they haven't turned him. No way fans are gonna cheer Cody or Ted over him. Maybe they're just saving the turn for the build to Wrestlemania.

Oh, I don't read spoilers, and I don't like them. I find this all interesting because given the way WWE operates it truly amazes me they could have a long running leak and not be able to plug it. That's all.

[Self]

His last face turn was a disaster. A face turn here would probably be as well.

He gets face pops because of how he's portrayed as a heel...so he can't go full-fledged babyface. And in this environment, I'm not sure how the E would do with an anti-hero type. They're better off just leaving him as is actually and allow the fans to respond to him based on his opponents.

A "full-fledged babyface" turn, wherein he becomes a hand-slappin' fun-lovin' happy-go-lucky babyface, would be the dumbest thing ever. No one would be dumb enough to suggest that. However, lets not confuse gimmick with disposition. Your gimmick doesn't have to change when you turn babyface. Orton needs to be the exact same guy (RKOing, Punting, slithering, The Viper) just fighting Heels instead of Babyfaces. That'll work. They came close with Sheamus, but clearly WWE weren't ready for it, otherwise they would have booked it differently.

His previous babyface run shouldn't be a factor. He's on a completely different level now. The look. The personality. The performance. All he has to do is fight with a little more fire, sell a little more dramatically and stop fighting babyfaces (not make friends, just stop fighting them) and he'll be WWE's number one guy. Bar none.

Expecting a 'turn' tonight on RAW. No gimmick change, no change of heart, no pandering to the fans, just straight up beatin' down Legacy. Instant babyface.

[PeterHilton]

A "full-fledged babyface" turn, wherein he becomes a hand-slappin' fun-lovin' happy-go-lucky babyface, would be the dumbest thing ever. No one would be dumb enough to suggest that.

That's sort of what they did last time. :p

but you're right: if written in the manner you describe, it would work.

[Tag01]

A "full-fledged babyface" turn, wherein he becomes a hand-slappin' fun-lovin' happy-go-lucky babyface, would be the dumbest thing ever. No one would be dumb enough to suggest that. However, lets not confuse gimmick with disposition. Your gimmick doesn't have to change when you turn babyface. Orton needs to be the exact same guy (RKOing, Punting, slithering, The Viper) just fighting Heels instead of Babyfaces. That'll work. They came close with Sheamus, but clearly WWE weren't ready for it, otherwise they would have booked it differently.

His previous babyface run shouldn't be a factor. He's on a completely different level now. The look. The personality. The performance. All he has to do is fight with a little more fire, sell a little more dramatically and stop fighting babyfaces (not make friends, just stop fighting them) and he'll be WWE's number one guy. Bar none.

Expecting a 'turn' tonight on RAW. No gimmick change, no change of heart, no pandering to the fans, just straight up beatin' down Legacy. Instant babyface.

Agreed. Have him start thrashing heels and give him all clean finishes vs. cheap old school wins and he's a huge hit as a face. He can still play the loner card, he doesn't have to buddy up with Cena. I think it would actually be a nice change of pace for him to play the favorite but still have a cold reception to Cena, DX, etc.

[MattitudeV2]

Agreed. Have him start thrashing heels and give him all clean finishes vs. cheap old school wins and he's a huge hit as a face. He can still play the loner card, he doesn't have to buddy up with Cena. I think it would actually be a nice change of pace for him to play the favorite but still have a cold reception to Cena, DX, etc.

Give the guy the Austin push!!!!

[The Shape]

Completely random musing... As somebody who only recently started watching wrestling again, I'd like to say that Orton's new music completely blows in comparison to Burn In My Light.

Couldn't disagree more. The start of this music is as good as any in the WWE right now, impact-wise.

And just saw it suggested elsewhere that a Mania match might actually see Bret winning the WWE title. Now that'd be interesting.

[brashleyholland]

Just a couple of random WWE questions after the EC last night:

I realise that Jericho stopped using the 'elevated' Walls of Jericho some time ago, but was there a particular reason he went from using that to the regular Boston Crab? I always though the old version looked great and made it stand out more.

Also, I read somewhere else that there was a bit of controversy with one of the comentators saying that Morrisson should "take a shot of cortizone and suck it up"...apparently his mike went dead for a few seconds afterwards...anyone pick up on this or know why thats such a boo-boo - is JM one of the guys who had drug issues?

Also, those were the first Elimination Chamber matches I've seen since the original chamber bout at Survivor Series (I think?) some years ago...now, I don't remember a whole lot of the bout, as I wasn't following wrestling at the time (I do remember there being an awsome tag bout with Benoit/Angle vs The Guerrero's vs Edge/Mysterio that night).

Anyway, from what I do remember, that first EC match was awsome...loads of crazy high-flying moves off the sides of the cage and the top of the pods, lots of blood and broken glass from guys getting smashed through the pod doors. Just a real stand-out bout.

What I saw last night was totaly weak-sauce in comparision...was there even a single move from the top of the pods? I dunno if it's WWE's toning down the violence (which I guess would explain the lack of blood/broken glass), but no big spots? I had it on in the office while working, but I'm sure I didn't miss anything.

Have all the recent EC matches been like that? Seems like it makes the whole point of Chamber/HITC redundant.

[justtxyank]

Jericho switched because the real Walls of Jericho actually hurt. WWE went all low impact on their moves. The Walls of Jericho strains even when it isn't being done "for real" if it you do it in at least a half believable manner. None of the submission moves in the E are done in a way that causes and strain on the body anymore and that includes the (lol?) Boston Crab that Jericho does now that is really more of a "constipated squat leg hold."