The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[ubernoob]

I could almost bet my life that he will have a rematch. They sure know how to book him in title matches and number 1 contender matches, and do so frequently. The problem is when he actually wins them...that's when The E screws up... But yeah, i'm pretty sure they won't miss out on parading him on a title match that he will (as almost always) lose. Have you noticed how the man has a good offense and actually looks legit facing bigger guys in the matches he loses? Oh well...

Thank god. Rey will get the Little Jimmy cheers and the Latino crowd cheers anyways. I do NOT want that man anywhere near a WWE championship belt. Gimme super Cena any day over him. Pretty much anyone over him.

[Hive]

Edit: I'm terribly sorry. I just realized someone already had linked this.

Thanks for posting it, when I tried the link earlier it said the website had too much traffic. So I hadn't read it. Good stuff.

[shawn michaels 82]

Thanks for posting it, when I tried the link earlier it said the website had too much traffic. So I hadn't read it. Good stuff.

No problem. Glad i was able to help. And this shows me a Shawn that i always imagined him beeing. Many people still think he's that jack ass of the 90's, but he's improved a lot, and as Shanw michaels supporter (best favorite wrestler of all time) and also a CM Punk suporter (current favorite wrestler) this means a lot to me.

[shawn michaels 82]

Thank god. Rey will get the Little Jimmy cheers and the Latino crowd cheers anyways. I do NOT want that man anywhere near a WWE championship belt. Gimme super Cena any day over him. Pretty much anyone over him.

I strongly disagree. Rey is a great worker and he deserves much more then beeing a anedotic champ, like his 1st reign, for example.

[Hive]

Many people still think he's that jack ass of the 90's, but he's improved a lot

Dunno about that. Just 5 years ago, his behaviour in the SummerSlam match against Hogan didn't exactly scream out "I have matured".

[steesh07]

Dunno about that. Just 5 years ago, his behaviour in the SummerSlam match against Hogan didn't exactly scream out "I have matured".

How do you mean? Can't remember his behaviour, despite having it on DVD somewhere.

[Fantabulous]

How do you mean? Can't remember his behaviour, despite having it on DVD somewhere.

He did everything he could to make the match seem like a joke with his absurd selling and his interview the next night on Raw made it very clear he hasn't as changed as people want to think.

[FINisher]

How do you mean? Can't remember his behaviour, despite having it on DVD somewhere.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWUgbu5xQ94 :cool: I love the 2.17 part.

E: Alternatively http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3R0A9BWTnE&feature=related :D

[steesh07]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWUgbu5xQ94 :cool: I love the 2.17 part.

E: Alternatively http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j3R0A9BWTnE&feature=related :D

In his position I would probably do the same, hate how Hogan just can't p*ss off.

[Hive]

In his position I would probably do the same, hate how Hogan just can't p*ss off.

Right. So because you have childish issues with your opponent, it's okay to ruin the match for all the fans who paid good money to enter the arena or watch the match on PPV?

I can in no way respect such an attitude, and it's because of stuff like that I have always had a hard time liking Michaels - in spite of his undeniable talent.

[Bull]

It has been suggested that Michaels deliberately made a mockery of the match by over-selling throughout the contest, allegedly because he was unhappy about being asked to job to an inferior opponent

Wasn't this when Hogan was leaving? If I remember correctly that is partly why Michaels didn't want to job to him. At least that is what I remember hearing

[steesh07]

Right. So because you have childish issues with your opponent, it's okay to ruin the match for all the fans who paid good money to enter the arena or watch the match on PPV?

I can in no way respect such an attitude, and it's because of stuff like that I have always had a hard time liking Michaels - in spite of his undeniable talent.

I'm not denying its unproffesional, but considering Hogan supposedly used Creative Control to prevent jobbing to HBK, I can see why he did it. I found it entertaining, rewatching it atm.

[Hive]

Wasn't this when Hogan was leaving? If I remember correctly that is partly why Michaels didn't want to job to him. At least that is what I remember hearing

The original plan was for Hogan to win a match against Michaels and then Michaels winning a rematch. But Hogan said his bad knee could only handle one match, which made little miss Michaels grumpy, feeling that Hogan just didn't want to lose to him.

I'm not denying its unproffesional, but considering Hogan supposedly used Creative Control to prevent jobbing to HBK, I can see why he did it. I found it entertaining, rewatching it atm.

Oh right. So because he feels that Hogan is unprofessional BACKSTAGE, it's a totally acceptable response to be even more unprofessional IN THE RING, in front of millions of paying fans?

Hogan has a rumor for being quite the jerk backstage, and I believe pretty much every word of it. But I cannot recall ever having seen him behave unprofessionally in front of the fans.

Besides, as the story goes, Hogan did not actually say that he would not lose a match against Michaels - he just said that his knee could not handle more than one match, the first match, which was booked as a Hogan victory. Maybe Hogan did have issues losing to Michaels and just made up a story about his knee losing it's smile, or maybe it's actually true. Either way, how professional and mature is Michaels when he goes on a hissy fit because he cannot stand the thought of losing against the biggest wrestling icon EVER if he cannot get a victory out of it as well?

Michaels has always been a primadonna imo, and he has done nothing to prove differently in my eyes. He couldn't even be a man and appologize properly to Bret Hart last year, but instead made it look as though he was the wronged part, having Hart be the one to reach out his hand in "friendship" to bury the hatchet with Michaels apparantly really having to think hard about it.

[Fantabulous]

The second Shawn/Hogan match was going to be the next month in a cage but Hogan would still have won. He was only willing to go as far as a near-photo finish where he would walk out of the cage a split-second before Shawn climbed out. Shawn didn't want to lose twice in a row so declined the match, Hogan left, and Shawn decided to go the interview on Raw we all saw.

[Hive]

The second Shawn/Hogan match was going to be the next month in a cage but Hogan would still have won. He was only willing to go as far as a near-photo finish where he would walk out of the cage a split-second before Shawn climbed out. Shawn didn't want to lose twice in a row so declined the match, Hogan left, and Shawn decided to go the interview on Raw we all saw.

Is that how it went? Not the story I heard, but doesn't really change my opinion on Michaels' behaviour one bit.

I have never seen the interview you mention however, how did it go down?

[Fantabulous]

I have never seen the interview you mention however, how did it go down?
Shawn basically mocked the entire match, sarcastically talked about how Hogan was too agile for him and then all but said Hogan would only come back for money and not for the fans. It was Shawn being Shawn circa-1997 at his dickish best.

[Hive]

Shawn basically mocked the entire match, sarcastically talked about how Hogan was too agile for him and then all but said Hogan would only come back for money and not for the fans. It was Shawn being Shawn circa-1997 at his dickish best.

I can imagine.

[bigtplaystew]

Wow... you guys sure seem to know EXACTLY what happened between Michaels and Hogan backstage. Most be those super accurate dirt sheets.


I think Rey will get a rematch on Raw either this week or next week. For starters, he and Cena actually had a pretty good TV match on monday. I watched the whole time and enjoyed myself. It's a no-brainer match for Monday. It would provide either a credible main event or a huge opener to the show.

[Hive]

Wow... you guys sure seem to know EXACTLY what happened between Michaels and Hogan backstage. Most be those super accurate dirt sheets.

It doesn't really matter what happened backstage, what matters is what happens in the ring. And in the ring, Michaels pretty much flipped all the fans the bird.

[codey]

I never in a million years thought the match would be good, but Michaels at least made it entertaining.

[Linsolv]

Shawn basically mocked the entire match, sarcastically talked about how Hogan was too agile for him and then all but said Hogan would only come back for money and not for the fans. It was Shawn being Shawn circa-1997 at his dickish best.

It does sound a bit childish, but Hogan DID come back just for the money and not for the fans, he IS a jerk who refuses to job to anyone, and if Michaels is/was bitter about it I for one don't blame him.

[Astil]

It does sound a bit childish, but Hogan DID come back just for the money and not for the fans, he IS a jerk who refuses to job to anyone, and if Michaels is/was bitter about it I for one don't blame him.

You still do what you are paid to do, whether or not it's easy/fair. People paid to see that match.

[rdarnz]

But is it not 'sports entertainment' and did his antics not 'entertain' those people that paid to see them?

[Linsolv]

You still do what you are paid to do, whether or not it's easy/fair. People paid to see that match.

People paid to see a lot of things that never make it to PPV. I recall the Sheamus/Daniel Bryan match in particular as a recent example. A lot of people were looking forward to Danielson on WrestleMania and then OOPS, dark match. Disrespecting a used-to-be legend who has been washed up for a decade or more and still keeps trying because he's an irresponsible and unsympathetic fool is something that doesn't bother me. And doing it on screen is a lot better to me than doing it backstage, because it suggests that you're willing to stake your reputation on saying it instead of being some kind of snake.

[shawn michaels 82]

He wasn't acting like an ass hole, he was pissed and rightfully so. Shawn had no problem to do the job...if it was for someone younger or someone who needed it or deserved it. But hogan was older than him, was a part time and would only agree to the match if he won! (Vintage hogan) We're talking about an old farth that wasn't even full time with the company and was about to leave. I would have done the same as shawn. Or worst. And i'm a pretty cool guy.

Ps: And hogan even bailed out to a second match where Shawn would win! YEs, i'd do the same as shawn. As Linsolv said, better do it like a man, instead of going behind people like a coward. Shawn Michaels, i salute you!

[Mr Rager]

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/play?id=6808291

Enjoyed listening to this interview with Punk; give it a listen if you've got a spare 43 minutes.

[Rocland]

What the hell happened to Goldberg?

http://popwrecked.com/images/goldberg-1.jpg
http://popwrecked.com/images/goldberg-2.jpg

He's so tiny now. I think Gillberg would frighten me more.

[lazorbeak]

A lot of outrage over what Shawn Michaels did as a heel in pretty much his only heel run of the past decade. It's almost like that's exactly how the business is supposed to work. You mean you didn't like the things the bad guy did? He was direspectful of his opponent? The nerve!!!

[TakerNGN74]

Even though a lot of negative things are said about that match based on what people said they heard one wrestler or both say, it was the best match that Hogan ever had and he has Michaels to thank for it.

[The Final Countdown]

Even though a lot of negative things are said about that match based on what people said they heard one wrestler or both say, it was the best match that Hogan ever had and he has Michaels to thank for it.
I've never seen the match, but I find it hard to believe that it was better than some of the big matches he had at his peak.

[borman_48]

I've never seen the match, but I find it hard to believe that it was better than some of the big matches he had at his peak.

I have, and I'd say it tops damn near everything he did in WCW and onward. (Excluding those couple matches where the crowd took over in the moment, vs. Rock at Wrestlemania for example) I dont think it tops his stuff with Macho or with DiBiase really, but the match was far better than it ever should have been.

[bigtplaystew]

I'm still just enamoured with how much some of you guys know about who wanted to job to who and who refused and the psychology behind it and all the inner workings of what actually happened backstage. Very educational.

So... Shawn's "antics" were him having excellent ring psychology and working heel to the crowd for an entire match... then finishing the match as a face...

[TakerNGN74]

I've never seen the match, but I find it hard to believe that it was better than some of the big matches he had at his peak.

I saw it as I ordered the PPV it was on and it was a really good match, it's on the hogan 3 disc set (4 disc depending on where you got it) and I think it might be on one of Michaels DVD's that he had but I am not completely sure about that.

[Teh_Showtime]

So I guess Raw drew yet another 3.2 Monday. And the NFL will be back soon, it could reach dangerously levels.

On another note, I watched Miz and Morrisons Bragging Rights Dirt Sheet today...

[Teh_Showtime]

Also Re: that skit on Connan: I like how Archie predicted Raw perfectly. that is just funny

[Hive]

Ps: And hogan even bailed out to a second match where Shawn would win! YEs, i'd do the same as shawn. As Linsolv said, better do it like a man, instead of going behind people like a coward. Shawn Michaels, i salute you!

Yeah Michaels is indeed a real man who would never dream of going behind someone's back himself. He would never dream of backstabbing someone, burying someone, lying to someone... he's a true hero. All hail Michaels, who may or may not be Jesus in disguise. :rolleyes:

[Teh_Showtime]

Yeahu Michaels even tried to hold down the Rock. Imagine if he got his way at WM 14 too. Shawn was just as big of a problem as Hogan.

[Hive]

Yeahu Michaels even tried to hold down the Rock. Imagine if he got his way at WM 14 too. Shawn was just as big of a problem as Hogan.

RAW may not have broken the ratings dominance by Nitro in that case. At least not on the following RAW, as they did.

[Fantabulous]

A lot of outrage over what Shawn Michaels did as a heel in pretty much his only heel run of the past decade. It's almost like that's exactly how the business is supposed to work. You mean you didn't like the things the bad guy did? He was direspectful of his opponent? The nerve!!!

Shawn turned babyface right after the Hogan match, apologizing to Hogan in-ring and basically telling him he did it all because he 'had to know' who the better man was. His Raw interview made zero sense as a babyface.

[lazorbeak]

Yes, because either Shawn or WWE or both saw no future in "1997 redux heel Shawn Michaels" and quickly turned face again. I just find it funny that he plays a character for a few weeks and people suddenly see it as "proof" that he's really like his character 8 years earlier, all the time.

And as far as "getting his way" at Wrestlemania 14? HBK thought his career was over after his Royal Rumble match with Undertaker, and was clearly just trying to last until March so he could hand the belt off to the guy that was obviously the top babyface in the company. His promos talked about not laying down for anyone and how he was going to game his way into keeping the title because he was a heel and as a heel he obliquely referenced his (legitimate and on-screen) beef with Bret Hart to get heat. But that was just to make it seem like less of a "well, duh" proposition that Austin was going over.

But yeah, almost every non-"company man" has played political games in the past. Guys like Hogan are/were masters of promising a return match and then conveniently disappearing to shoot a movie or take time off for injury before any rematch could happen. It's probably a result of growing up in the territories and seeing guys pull stunts like this on them. Austin, HBK, and everybody who grew up in the territory days tends to have at least one story about refusing to play ball.

Also, Beth Phoenix was on Colt's podcast today, and, to quote TEW, she really put over Molly Holly/Nora Greenwald as a great person. Not nearly enough talking about her CM Punk connections though. Cabana's whole show should just be talking about CM Punk, all the time (he has very brief cameos in the Zach Ryder and Chris Hero podcasts).

[Hive]

Yes, because either Shawn or WWE or both saw no future in "1997 redux heel Shawn Michaels" and quickly turned face again. I just find it funny that he plays a character for a few weeks and people suddenly see it as "proof" that he's really like his character 8 years earlier, all the time.

Right, so you believe that WWF told him to ruin the match by overselling Hogan's offenses, become a babyface right after the match, proceed to cut a shoot heel promo on the next RAW and then go babyface again the week after?

Besides, noone said the above was "proof" of anything. But some people, including me, see it as an example - together with a bunch of other stuff - of HBK not being as saved and improved as a person as he wants people to believe.

And as far as "getting his way" at Wrestlemania 14? HBK thought his career was over after his Royal Rumble match with Undertaker, and was clearly just trying to last until March so he could hand the belt off to the guy that was obviously the top babyface in the company. His promos talked about not laying down for anyone and how he was going to game his way into keeping the title because he was a heel and as a heel he obliquely referenced his (legitimate and on-screen) beef with Bret Hart to get heat. But that was just to make it seem like less of a "well, duh" proposition that Austin was going over.

Again you seem to base everything on what we see on RAW. The story about WM14 is that he initially refused to job to Austin, with some versions of the story saying that The Undertaker had to subtely threaten HBK in order to have him comply.*

But yeah, almost every non-"company man" has played political games in the past. Guys like Hogan are/were masters of promising a return match and then conveniently disappearing to shoot a movie or take time off for injury before any rematch could happen. It's probably a result of growing up in the territories and seeing guys pull stunts like this on them. Austin, HBK, and everybody who grew up in the territory days tends to have at least one story about refusing to play ball.

Indeed, there were/are tons of egoistical people in wrestling. But most of them kept the backstage politics from ruining the fans' experiences.


*The story I read says that the top dogs were in a creative meeting when HBK jobbing to Austin was being discussed. HBK refused, however. After a while, The Undertaker got tired of HBK's attitude and began taping his fists - advicing HBK to have agreed to do the job by the time he was finished taping his fists, or else he would make him do it.

I don't know if it's a true story, but it's entertaining nonetheless.

[Fantabulous]

The story about WM14 is that he initially refused to job to Austin, with some versions of the story saying that The Undertaker had to subtely threaten HBK in order to have him comply.*

*The story I read says that the top dogs were in a creative meeting when HBK jobbing to Austin was being discussed. HBK refused, however. After a while, The Undertaker got tired of HBK's attitude and began taping his fists - advicing HBK to have agreed to do the job by the time he was finished taping his fists, or else he would make him do it.

I don't know if it's a true story, but it's entertaining nonetheless.

Undertaker himself, on an episode Off The Record, confirmed the Wrestlemania 14 story that he had to 'suggest' to Shawn that it was in his best physical interest that he do the job for Austin. This was not Shawn playing up his past to add intrigue to the Austin match; this was Shawn not wanting to job.

[Hive]

Undertaker himself, on an episode Off The Record, confirmed the Wrestlemania 14 story that he had to 'suggest' to Shawn that it was in his best physical interest that he do the job for Austin. This was not Shawn playing up his past to add intrigue to the Austin match; this was Shawn not wanting to job.

Undertaker confirmed it himself? Well there we have it. :)

But... what exactly is "Off The Record"?

[20LEgend]

Don't know if this is where he's says it, but this is part one and you can find the other parts from there:

Undertaker: Off The Record (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjQTK_MpFXc)

[lazorbeak]

Again you seem to base everything on what we see on RAW. The story about WM14 is that he initially refused to job to Austin, with some versions of the story saying that The Undertaker had to subtely threaten HBK in order to have him comply.*


Que?! How about the fact that he didn't wrestle a match after the Undertaker match (as I mentioned), and didn't work another match for 4 years? The fact that he was barely on TV and missed the February PPV tended to show he wasn't faking that particular injury.


I mean I'll give the wrist taping story the benefit of the doubt as far as something like that happening, but that doesn't connect to 'HBK refuses to job," it connects with "HBK was unhappy." His version, years after the fact, was that he was upset about the Tyson involvement, not putting Austin over. Maybe that's 100% not true either, but I really don't see enough evidence either way to go "a-ha, that proves it!" Especially since the version where he thinks he's going over makes HBK sound like an insane person. Everybody knew Austin was going over from January on. The entire show was already built around him by that point, and he'd never been champ. Compare that to the guy that needed two months off just to be in position to not come to the ring on crutches. Would a guy who believed his career was over really going to try to put himself over at the expense of the biggest babyface in the company, who's already worked with him in the past? Maybe he just hadn't noticed that the entire build-up going in was focused on Austin/Tyson?


It just seems like a slightly biased viewpoint to look at two weeks of programming several years ago and say "a-ha, I knew he hadn't changed!" Especially when he was clearly and self-consciously doing a version of his own on-screen heel act from almost a decade earlier. And, as mentioned, he made a Hulk Hogan match entertaining in 2005, which in of itself probably deserves a medal.

[Fantabulous]

http://youtu.be/O8XNMDyStFk

The question gets asked at 4:51.

[Hive]

Que?! How about the fact that he didn't wrestle a match after the Undertaker match (as I mentioned), and didn't work another match for 4 years? The fact that he was barely on TV and missed the February PPV tended to show he wasn't faking that particular injury.


I mean I'll give the wrist taping story the benefit of the doubt as far as something like that happening, but that doesn't connect to 'HBK refuses to job," it connects with "HBK was unhappy." His version, years after the fact, was that he was upset about the Tyson involvement, not putting Austin over. Maybe that's 100% not true either, but I really don't see enough evidence either way to go "a-ha, that proves it!" Especially since the version where he thinks he's going over makes HBK sound like an insane person. Everybody knew Austin was going over from January on. The entire show was already built around him by that point, and he'd never been champ. Compare that to the guy that needed two months off just to be in position to not come to the ring on crutches. Would a guy who believed his career was over really going to try to put himself over at the expense of the biggest babyface in the company, who's already worked with him in the past? Maybe he just hadn't noticed that the entire build-up going in was focused on Austin/Tyson?

I don't think anyone claimed that he was faking his injury. And whether or not HBK was unable to see the match outcome coming is not for me to know, but if Undertaker says that HBK didn't want to lose to Austin, then I have no hard time believing that.

It just seems like a slightly biased viewpoint to look at two weeks of programming several years ago and say "a-ha, I knew he hadn't changed!" Especially when he was clearly and self-consciously doing a version of his own on-screen heel act from almost a decade earlier.

Oh... so if you're self-concious about being a jerk, it doesn't count? Gotcha.

Anyway, I'll buy that as the reason for being a prick in build up promos selling the match (like the one where he dressed up as Hogan and mocked him on a near-shoot level). But it still doesn't explain his promo from the RAW after the match, where the storyline was over and Hogan had left, and where HBK was supposed to be babyface.

And, as mentioned, he made a Hulk Hogan match entertaining in 2005, which in of itself probably deserves a medal.

I'm fairly sure that they could have had an entertaining match without HBK selling like it was clown school.

[Hive]

Don't know if this is where he's says it, but this is part one and you can find the other parts from there:

Undertaker: Off The Record (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DjQTK_MpFXc)

http://youtu.be/O8XNMDyStFk

The question gets asked at 4:51.

Thanks guys, I'll watch them in a bit. :)

[BHK1978]

I have no problem with Hogan not wanting to job to HBK. The fact of the matter is Hogan is the bigger star and made more money for the WWF than HBK could ever dream about making. No matter if you like him or hate him (And trust me I hate him, actually I hate both him and HBK equally.) Hulk is a household name whose name trancends the wrestling industry. Whereas outside of wrestling HBK is probably not going to be known by many people.

Why should Hogan have jobbed for him? Shawn was already a superstar so the rub would not have mattered.

[Teh_Showtime]

It was the mid 200s though, I dont think Hulk was putting 80,000+ in seats anymore

[BHK1978]

It was the mid 200s though, I dont think Hulk was putting 80,000+ in seats anymore

Very true but at a certain point in sports people seem to earn the right to live off their past glories. Case in point, in 1973 Willie Mays made the NL All-Star team. This was not the Say Hey Kid who wowed the baseball world in the 1950 and 60's. It was a broken down old man (Well in real life 42 isn't old but in sports it is ancient.) who could bearly play the Outfield.

Should he have been on the team? Going by stats probably not. However, he made the team because of what he once was and the same applies to Hogan.

Hogan should have the right of refusal to job to Shawn because of all the things he did for the industry. Without Hogan becoming big, Shawn would have never been able to make the kind of money that he made.

[Fantabulous]

I wouldn't have had Hogan lose to Shawn either, but not because of the idea that because he drew more it means he shouldn't have to lose to Shawn. I wouldn't have had Hogan lose because, for one thing, people generally don't like to see the big returning legend lose. It can be a major downer for people who are drawn in by the return of the guy they knew from years gone by and then watch as they lose. You don't need to do that to people unless there is a damn good reason for the legend to lose. And I think the only two reasons are because he's facing the next major star and it's to make statement that the other guy is the real deal and you should treat him as such, or if he's facing another legend and,well, unless you can come up with a non-finish that won't piss people off, one of them has to go down.

[Imarevenant]

Very true but at a certain point in sports people seem to earn the right to live off their past glories. Case in point, in 1973 Willie Mays made the NL All-Star team. This was not the Say Hey Kid who wowed the baseball world in the 1950 and 60's. It was a broken down old man (Well in real life 42 isn't old but in sports it is ancient.) who could bearly play the Outfield.

Sounds like a certain Yankee shortstop doesn't it :p

[BHK1978]

Sounds like a certain Yankee shortstop doesn't it :p

You know I actually was going to use him as the example but Willie on the Mets was a joke at the end of his career. Jeter has not entered into that realm...yet.:D

[bigtplaystew]

I think some of you are overexaggerating what happened in the match. It's a character flaw among smarks, we think we know everythign when all we know is what's been given to us.

[Fantabulous]

I think some of you are overexaggerating what happened in the match. It's a character flaw among smarks, we think we know everythign when all we know is what's been given to us.

Some don't even know that much...

Shawn's selling in that much was comical in its ridiculousness. But hey, when he a does one of the most absurdly over-the-top bumps of all time...

http://youtu.be/XyN5sAShqOA

skip to 02:08 of this video which showcases all of Shawn's silly bumps....

it's over exaggerating to call it ridiculous. :rolleyes:

[codey]

I don't know if anyone watches Superstars or not, but the tag champs, Otunga and McGuilla...Guilla...McGill...Perfect's kid have jobbed two weeks straight. First, it was to the Usos, which I thought would lead to a title match, but the next week they faced Ryder and Santino, whom they also lost to.

[bigtplaystew]

I dont know that anyone claimed Shawn WASNT overselling. It's fairly obvious. The match overall really isn't that bad. It's been featured on several WWE DVDs so I mean it's not like it's this big deal I feel liek some make it out to be.

My problem with this entire discussion is the behind the scenes fantasy talk and the absolute certainty some guys have when discussing it.

[Hive]

My problem with this entire discussion is the behind the scenes fantasy talk and the absolute certainty some guys have when discussing it.

Who are you to be able to dismiss it all as "fantasy" talk? Do you know stuff the rest of us don't? The rest of us base our statements and opinions on what we read and/or see, like the video of The Undertaker saying that HBK didn't want to do the Austin job untill he "encouraged" him. Are you saying he's a liar? Are you saying you know better than him?

[Moe Hunter]

Oh right. So because he feels that Hogan is unprofessional BACKSTAGE, it's a totally acceptable response to be even more unprofessional IN THE RING, in front of millions of paying fans?

Okay, so let's say Shawn didn't oversell anything in the match. It just plays out straight. Shawn falls over every time legitimately acting as if Hogan's super weak punches are doing real damage, not comically blowing them out of proportion. The biggest move of the match is when Hogan can *barely* pick him up on to the announce table.

We're left with HBK, one of the best wrestlers of all time (and *currently* a fantastic worker), apparently truly having a very difficult time getting any offense in on an old, broken man, and getting beaten badly by attacks with no force behind them.

Now... You say "acted unprofessional", I say "saved the match from being a terrible, boring, paint-by-numbers Hogan match".

Hogan has a rumor for being quite the jerk backstage, and I believe pretty much every word of it. But I cannot recall ever having seen him behave unprofessionally in front of the fans.

You've never seen him refuse to jump for Taker's chokeslam?

Also, with Hogan a lot of his unprofessionalism comes from simply NOT being in front of the fans. Tell me, where was he during the WHOLE feud with Orton? And who HAD to win that match?

[Hive]

Okay, so let's say Shawn didn't oversell anything in the match. It just plays out straight. Shawn falls over every time legitimately acting as if Hogan's super weak punches are doing real damage, not comically blowing them out of proportion. The biggest move of the match is when Hogan can *barely* pick him up on to the announce table.

We're left with HBK, one of the best wrestlers of all time (and *currently* a fantastic worker), apparently truly having a very difficult time getting any offense in on an old, broken man, and getting beaten badly by attacks with no force behind them.

Now... You say "acted unprofessional", I say "saved the match from being a terrible, boring, paint-by-numbers Hogan match".

Okay... after reading this, I must conclude one of the following:

1) You are blinded by your love for Michaels.

or

2) You are blinded by your hatred for Hogan.

or

3) You apparantly watched a whole different match than I did.

You've never seen him refuse to jump for Taker's chokeslam

I've seen that, yes. I had forgotten about it though. He made the Chokeslam look like crap, and it pissed me off when watching it. But I'm not sure whether he did it on purpose or whether he just messed up. If he did do it on purpose though, it is indeed unprofessional and bad taste both towards the fans but also towards The Undertaker.

I'd like to point out though that I'm no Hogan fan but I just I don't see how Hogan acting up is a carte blanche for HBK doing so as well. It cannot be justified towards the paying fans.

Also, with Hogan a lot of his unprofessionalism comes from simply NOT being in front of the fans. Tell me, where was he during the WHOLE feud with Orton? And who HAD to win that match?

I did not watch WWE back then and have no idea how much he was featured leading up to the match. I only saw a few clips pre-match, like the one where Orton RKO'ed him on a car. But I fail to see how Hogan not being a lot on RAW for a storyline says anything about his professionalism. Blame Vince for not booking him for those shows.

I will say though that I agree Orton should have gone over, it could have been a giant boost to him at that time (though it can be argued that he probably wasn't read for it, but that's another issue). But again: that's something he did backstage, not in the ring where all the fans can see it.

[Candyman]

I think some of you are overexaggerating what happened in the match. It's a character flaw among smarks, we think we know everythign when all we know is what's been given to us.

Well said. There's no other group in the world who knows so little and thinks they know so much. Well, maybe sabermatricians and baseball...

Very true but at a certain point in sports people seem to earn the right to live off their past glories. Case in point, in 1973 Willie Mays made the NL All-Star team. This was not the Say Hey Kid who wowed the baseball world in the 1950 and 60's. It was a broken down old man (Well in real life 42 isn't old but in sports it is ancient.) who could bearly play the Outfield.

Should he have been on the team? Going by stats probably not. However, he made the team because of what he once was and the same applies to Hogan.

Hogan should have the right of refusal to job to Shawn because of all the things he did for the industry. Without Hogan becoming big, Shawn would have never been able to make the kind of money that he made.

Bad comparison. Did they bat Willie Mays leadoff? Or when MJ made the all-star game in his last season under the same scenario, did he take the last shot? Willie Mays (or MJ or Jeter or any number of undeserved all-stars) being on the all-star team is analogous to Hulk Hogan being IN the match, in the SummerSlam main event, not winning it.

But that's besides the point. Arguing over whether or not Hogan should've won is pointless. The bottom line is Hogan agreed to lose a rematch and backed out. That's why HBK did what he did, and that's why Hogan deserved it. To say it was unprofessional or that HBK was wrong in any way is laughable. He should be applauded for his actions, not criticized.

Yeah Michaels is indeed a real man who would never dream of going behind someone's back himself. He would never dream of backstabbing someone, burying someone, lying to someone... he's a true hero. All hail Michaels, who may or may not be Jesus in disguise. :rolleyes:

Right, because that matters. Nevermind the fact that HBK did all of those things before his injury, and none of them after his return, which is when the Hogan incident took place...if you've ever done anything bad in your life, you have to accept it with a smile on your face if it happens to you. That's logical.

If Hugo Chavez shot Fidel Castro, the world would still be a better place for it.

Okay... after reading this, I must conclude one of the following:

1) You are blinded by your love for Michaels.

or

2) You are blinded by your hatred for Hogan.

or

3) You apparantly watched a whole different match than I did.

It's funny, I was just about to ask if you were blinded by your hatred for Michaels or your love for Hogan. Or is it both?

[Linsolv]

Okay... after reading this, I must conclude one of the following:

1) You are blinded by your love for Michaels.

or

2) You are blinded by your hatred for Hogan.

or

3) You apparantly watched a whole different match than I did.

I apologize for being about to get all philosophical up in in this joint, but I'd say it's #3. We ALL see whole different matches every time we see a match. The reason we like wrestling is different for each of us. The people we like, we like for different reasons. Sometimes they're similar, but the subtle differences that we bring to the table mean that for me, airing grievances publicly is called "being a man," while for you, it's called "being a child."

For him, overselling wasn't a big deal. It's no different than any Ric Flair match I've seen. For you, it's a huge deal! Wrestling is all about the suspension of disbelief, and nobody jumps up after being kicked down so they can flop around like a fish out of water!

[BHK1978]

Bad comparison. Did they bat Willie Mays leadoff? Or when MJ made the all-star game in his last season under the same scenario, did he take the last shot? Willie Mays (or MJ or Jeter or any number of undeserved all-stars) being on the all-star team is analogous to Hulk Hogan being IN the match, in the SummerSlam main event, not winning it.

How so? How does Willie Mays leading off the All-Star game matter? My point was that Hogan (much like Willie Mays) has earned the right to refuse who he was going to lose to because of his past glory. Much like Willie Mays, he was broken down and probably should have lost to HBK but because of who he was he did not.

I am saying he earned the right to win the match because of what he had done in the past. Willie Mays, Derek Jeter, etc. earned the right to play in All-Star games because the earned it no matter how far past their prime they are.

[BHK1978]

Well said. There's no other group in the world who knows so little and thinks they know so much. Well, maybe sabermatricians and baseball...

Wanted to add that I think Sabermetrics is bull crap. You just look at the stats that have worked for 130 some odd years. They have worked for that long so why change it.

Now in regards to the comment of, “There is not other group in the world who knows so little and thinks they know so much.”

Well as Hive said most of the time smarks (which I do not consider myself to be one) go by what they have read and by accounts of the actual wrestlers. Granted there could be lying involved but the fact of the matter is until other evidence comes up to the contrary we have to go by what was said.

I guess you are right, going by information that was put out there by people that were actually involved in the situation makes us ill informed. Not sure what kind of bizarre logic that is.

[Hive]

if you've ever done anything bad in your life, you have to accept it with a smile on your face if it happens to you. That's logical.

No but if you have a habbit of punching random people on the street, you have no right bitching when someone decides to do it to you. Karma and all.

It's funny, I was just about to ask if you were blinded by your hatred for Michaels or your love for Hogan. Or is it both?

Oh my effing God... are you seriously going there? When on earth did I EVER hint a love for Hogan? On the contrary, I stated that I do not particularly like the guy. But apparantly, that didn't go through. So I'll try again: I do NOT like Hulk Hogan. I think he's a selfish egomaniac who throughout his career has done a lot of stuff that was hurtful to other wrestlers' careers and to the business as a whole (like refusing to job to Bret Hart). I do NOT like Hogan. I respect his achievements, just like I respect HBK's achievements, but that doesn't mean I have to like either.

But... and I repeat this, because either it doesn't go through to people or they instead just disagree and thinks it's perfectly okay to flip the paying fans the bird: I just don't see that it in any way makes it okay for Michaels to act up and try to ruin the match for paying fans who expected a serious bout. And it doesn't matter how much crap Hogan has pulled backstage throughout the years, even if he may have pulled more than HBK (which depends on how you look at it, I guess): it still is NEVER okay to let your ego triumph over the fans. If I want to watch a comedy match, I'll watch Chikara and not WWE. Was the match good? For a lot of people, yes. But I'll still claim that it could have been a lot better, had Michaels acted like a professional.

But yes, I have a strong dislike for HBK as a person (and for Hogan as a person as well). But I respect HBK as a performer, and usually enjoy his matches. That is, when he doesn't decide to ruin them with clown antics.

[Hive]

I guess you are right, going by information that was put out there by people that were actually involved in the situation makes us ill informed. Not sure what kind of bizarre logic that is.

Well said, good sir.

[Gabbo]

If that match happened in WCW and the overselling was done by someone else, maybe DDP or Nash it would be wrestlecrap, but HBK kinda gets a free pass because everyone loves him.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and wrestling has to be treated as a marks game so exposing the business like HBK did does nothing to help anyone. I really don't like Hogan and understand the situation HBK was placed in, but it all comes down to two egotistical men that shouldn't have been placed in that position in the first place.

[Hive]

If that match happened in WCW and the overselling was done by someone else, maybe DDP or Nash it would be wrestlecrap, but HBK kinda gets a free pass because everyone loves him.

Two wrongs don't make a right, and wrestling has to be treated as a marks game so exposing the business like HBK did does nothing to help anyone. I really don't like Hogan and understand the situation HBK was placed in, but it all comes down to two egotistical men that shouldn't have been placed in that position in the first place.

Exactly. Much more elequently put than my own ramblings. Thumbs up. :)

[Fantabulous]

I can see it didn't sink in the first few times so I'll repeat myself; Hogan never agreed to lose the rematch to Shawn, which would have been a cage match. He insisted on winning, and he had the contractual right to do so which is something else that doesn't appear to have registered, but he was willing to do a photo-finish ending where he would escape the cage seconds before Shawn did.

Shawn's promo on Raw was all about Hogan refusing to lose the first match, something he had the contractual right to do, and Shawn not getting Hogan to change his mind despite trying his best to do so. If Shawn was frustrated at having to lose to Hogan when he didn't want and had no way to avoid it, too damn bad on him for agreeing to the match without making sure he had a chance at getting to win in the first place. If Shawn had cut the same speech he did on Raw to just his friends, that would be one thing. But doing it on live TV when Hogan wasn't coming back and he knew it and it wasn't going anywhere and served no purpose but to rip into a guy no longer around, at best it was acting like a spoiled brat who couldn't get his way. However you want to paint it, it was unprofessional.

[Teh_Showtime]

Is anyone forgetting Halloween Havoc when mentioning Hogan never cheating the fans?

[Fantabulous]

Is anyone forgetting Halloween Havoc when mentioning Hogan never cheating the fans?

Ah, vintage Russo.

[bigtplaystew]

Who are you to be able to dismiss it all as "fantasy" talk? Do you know stuff the rest of us don't? The rest of us base our statements and opinions on what we read and/or see, like the video of The Undertaker saying that HBK didn't want to do the Austin job untill he "encouraged" him. Are you saying he's a liar? Are you saying you know better than him?


People lie, people get things wrong, people get misinformed. I've seen videos of guys telling me they killed a sasquatch. Video of a guy talking doesn't make it reality.

Is Undertaker telling the truth? Most likely. We all get a pretty good sense of how things are. It's no secret from various sources that HBK and HHH tried to bury just about everyone there was.

So I don't know where you come off jumping to conclussions puting words in my mouth.

That's ONE video and it has nothing to do with the Hogan match in question for starters. Anything the fans get as backstage info is probably carefully planned, especially from a long term employee like the Undertaker. Another thing is that I hope if you've been a fan of this buisness long enough that you should know that no one really tells the truth in pro wrestling. It's all one guy's side versus the other guys side.

So when you start going into what Shawn Michaels was thinking and behaving like backstage like you KNOW... not like you think or like you heard but like you KNOW... it's uncomfortable for me to read. Speculation is one thing. Thats what boards like these are for. But there's been people who are CORRECTING other people as if they know for a FACT exactly what was going on backstage during the Hogan / Michaels match. Thats when you go wrong in my book.

[Hive]

Is anyone forgetting Halloween Havoc when mentioning Hogan never cheating the fans?

Is this the "fast" count in the Sting match?

If so, I definately agree that Hogan was a major ass, if the rumor about him having the ref do a regular count instead of the agreed fast count is correct. And I have no reason to believe it isn't, since iirc both Bischoff and Hogan pretty much confirmed them doing it on purpose.

But he didn't take any liberties with Sting in the ring, he didn't oversell, he didn't phone the match in... he screwed Sting, which I (with Sting being my favourite all-time wrestler) definately is not okay with. But there's still a difference between burying other workers through backstage stuff and ruining a match for the fans (the fake fast count does fall into the latter category imo).

Though I have to say, Sting being insanely out of shape and deciding to stay prone after the "fast count" didn't exactly help the match in question either. And I say this as a major fan of Sting.

But again... and I don't get why I have to repeat this: Hogan being a jerk towards the fans does not justify HBK being a jerk towards the fans as well. It's amazing how so many people think it's great when HBK does it just because it's Hogan. What if he had oversold like that against, say, CM Punk? How many people would then defend HBK?

[Hive]

People lie, people get things wrong, people get misinformed. I've seen videos of guys telling me they killed a sasquatch. Video of a guy talking doesn't make it reality.

So your solution is to never believe anything people say, ever?

Please tell me you see a difference between an outlandish claim as the sasquatch one and saying someone, who has a bad repetoire in the first place, refused to lose a wrestling match.

Is Undertaker telling the truth? Most likely. We all get a pretty good sense of how things are. It's no secret from various sources that HBK and HHH tried to bury just about everyone there was.

Then why are you so determined to rule these backstage stories as fantasy lies? Don't you think there's a fair chance that at least some of the stories hold merit?

That's ONE video and it has nothing to do with the Hogan match in question for starters.

Uhm yeah but the video highlights from the Hogan match pretty much speaks for themselves.

Anything the fans get as backstage info is probably carefully planned, especially from a long term employee like the Undertaker. Another thing is that I hope if you've been a fan of this buisness long enough that you should know that no one really tells the truth in pro wrestling. It's all one guy's side versus the other guys side.

It depends on the claims made. Let me ask you: why would a guy like The Undertaker lie about the incident? Would he even become the kind of locker room leader he is if he was prone to telling lies?

So when you start going into what Shawn Michaels was thinking and behaving like backstage like you KNOW... not like you think or like you heard but like you KNOW... it's uncomfortable for me to read. Speculation is one thing. Thats what boards like these are for. But there's been people who are CORRECTING other people as if they know for a FACT exactly what was going on backstage during the Hogan / Michaels match. Thats when you go wrong in my book.

And stating that they are all naturally fantasy lies is better than stating they are fact? Besides, I don't think anyone stated those things as facts. I'm pretty sure I myself merely mentioned that I had read multiple reports and that I see no reason not to believe them, given HBK's reputation and the fairly trustworthy people behind the statements (like Undertaker).

Is there a chance that the story about HBK refusing to job to Austin is false? Sure, I guess. Is there a chance that the story about HBK being mad about jobbing to Hogan is false and him just happening to act like a spoiled brat in the ring being him having an off day? Well... maybe. But I refuse to believe that ALL stories about HBK being a jerk are 100 % fantasy. Heck, I watched an interview with his good pal Triple H yesterday in which he himself said that while HBK had definately improved after being "born again", but that he still showed his old self every now and then - and also that before HBK became "born again", Triple H hadn't talked to him for 2-3 years because he got fed up with him. And this from one of his closest friends in the business.

[bigtplaystew]

Piece of advice:

When you say, "So you are saying (insert random thought here)?" and the person in question never actually said any of it... you are putting words in their mouth. It's a classic arguing tactic when you have no actual way of discussing what they actually DID say.







You went piece by piece, took everything I said, and morphed your own points around it making me seem like I made points I never said nor implied. I refuse to argue in that light. So I'm going to make a quick little point here.



Pro wrestling is a very secretive buisness. Things are very political and very little gets out that guys like Vince McMahon don't want out there. Very little can actually be confirmed (even though wrestling sites love to throw the word "confirmed" around) as true or untrue. So I'll use a Dave Meltzer MMA story simply as an example:

About a year ago, Brock Lesnar lost to Cain Velasquez rather brutally. Meltzer reported that Lesnar was going to quit MMA and had doubts about wether he could hang with good MMA strikers in the UFC. I'm paraphrasing. Even though Dana White loled at the craziness of that story, it was discussed on ESPN and all over the internet as if it was actually jornalism so I'm sure you all remember it.

A few weeks later Lesnar was announced as a TUF coach and agreed to fight Junior Dos Santos - one of MMA's most feared strikers.

Point is: he lied.

This might seme off topic but it's not. Meltzer is primarily a pro wrestling journalist and he writes for a very secretive industry. MMA isn't as secretive and is much more transparent and he was exposed as someone who flat out makes up stories. This is why YOU CANT BELIEVE DIRT SHEETS.

[Hive]

Piece of advice:

When you say, "So you are saying (insert random thought here)?" and the person in question never actually said any of it... you are putting words in their mouth. It's a classic arguing tactic when you have no actual way of discussing what they actually DID say.

Whatever. :rolleyes:

[Jaysin]

This is just as bad as the Cena debacle a few weeks ago :p

[Hive]

You went piece by piece, took everything I said, and morphed your own points around it making me seem like I made points I never said nor implied. I refuse to argue in that light. So I'm going to make a quick little point here.

What did I morph? Did you not jump in and claimed that all stories discussed about HBK are nothing but "fantasy"? That was a pretty arrogant claim which you really have no basis for saying. How can you be so sure that HBK did not do these things? I never said I was 100 % sure he did, I clearly stated that I had *heard* that he *reportedly* did those things. I cannot be sure that it's true, but you can't be sure that it's fantasy either. You accuse me of presenting the stories as sure facts while you at the same time feel capable of dismissing them as sure fantasy. How can you be in a position to do so?

Pro wrestling is a very secretive buisness. Things are very political and very little gets out that guys like Vince McMahon don't want out there. Very little can actually be confirmed (even though wrestling sites love to throw the word "confirmed" around) as true or untrue. So I'll use a Dave Meltzer MMA story simply as an example:

I never claimed that all stories we hear are true. But I have heard enough HBK stories to believe that there are at least some merit in them and that he probably is a jerk. You can choose to believe that he's the second coming of christ instead if you like (in fact, judging from the way people defend him around here, it seems that some people do).

This is why YOU CANT BELIEVE DIRT SHEETS.

I strongly disagree. Such a story is proof that you cannot believe *everything* they say, but at the same time it does not mean you cannot believe *anything* they say.

Byt that logic, you cannot EVER believe in newspapers, tv, politicians, etc. They all report false information, either by accident or on purpose, from time to time.

[bigtplaystew]

If you at any point can quote me saying "all wrestlign stories are lies" than I'd love to see it.

I really shouldn't have to reitterate this since we can all read.

I said I think it's a little silly to talk about backstage things as if you know FOR A FACT exactly how it went. In any situation, whether it's wrestling, among friends, work politics, whatever... when you go by hearsay and repeat it as truth it generally isn't a good thing to do.


Thank you.

[codey]

You've heard stories about him being a jerk well over a decade ago. A young guy with an ego that was drugged out. Fast forward to his return, and the only stories you hear about him backstage are about him being a born again christian, helping young talent, and one instance out of a decade of him not wanting to lose to barely mobile 60 year old man. Well, he did end up losing, and he actually made the match entertaining to me (others have stated the same in this topic).

A month ago, CM Punk goes out and airs his grievances on air, calling out the boss, his family, other workers and employees and people praise him nonstop. Micaels goes out and says some things along the same lines and you just crap on him as a horrible person.

He might be. I don't know. You don't know. Unless you know him personally, you don't know this. He said she said isn't a way to gather any sort of information. Even if you do, the only sort of negative he said she said we got the past decade was this whole thing. The rest has been positive. Hell, just a few days ago an article written by former ECW head writer was posted in the topic about Michaels saved the career of CM Punk. It's still he said she said, but, like I said, we get a lot more positive crap coming from him.

[DaMegaFish]

I have to say, a couple weeks ago I finally broke down and watched Zack Ryders show...now I'm officially a part of the Zack Pack. How I didn't jump on this band wagon sooner is beyond me. Something about Ryder just works right now for me...also, his match with Cole this week on RAW was one of my favorite segments from the show. Those two are probably two of the most entertaining guys in the WWE for me right now. Yes, I am a Michael Cole mark. I've already discussed this though.

[codey]

He's the main reason I try to watch Superstars every week. Well, him and Tyson Kidd.

[Fantabulous]

A month ago, CM Punk goes out and airs his grievances on air, calling out the boss, his family, other workers and employees and people praise him nonstop. Micaels goes out and says some things along the same lines and you just crap on him as a horrible person.


When you miss the point you sure like to do it in grand fashion.

Punk's promo was done as part of an ongoing storyline that he was involved in and was going somewhere. Shawn's was done because he couldn't deal with the fact he had to do a job he didn't want to do and because the guy he had to lose to was gone and not coming back, he felt it was safe to act like a spoiled brat on live TV.

[Hive]

If you at any point can quote me saying "all wrestlign stories are lies" than I'd love to see it.

This:

My problem with this entire discussion is the behind the scenes fantasy talk and the absolute certainty some guys have when discussing it.

You say that the stuff we discuss from behind the scenes is fantasy, as if it were a universal fact.

I said I think it's a little silly to talk about backstage things as if you know FOR A FACT exactly how it went. In any situation, whether it's wrestling, among friends, work politics, whatever... when you go by hearsay and repeat it as truth it generally isn't a good thing to do.

When did I repeat it as being the universal truth? And you talk about ME mistreating YOUR words...

I'm still looking for reasonable arguments why what Undertaker said should *not* be trusted, btw.

[bigtplaystew]

He's the main reason I try to watch Superstars every week. Well, him and Tyson Kidd.

I like Zack Ryder alot and have since ECW. I always got a kick out of him and I really respect that the second ECW got taken off he hit the net like a champ. I mean he was doing great things on twitter "before it was cool" and when ECW was still on... but man has he taken that to the next step lately. His in-ring work is o.k.... but the guy is an amazing TV character to me. I think they are going to be using him more.

I was at smackdown this week and I really liked the Tyson Kidd / Yoshi Tatsu match from NXT. The stupid leg on a necklace thing made me laugh pretty hard (in a good way) but the match itself was pretty solid.

I wish WWe had some kind of thing similar to an "X" division where guys like that could really show their stuff longform. Maybe when they get the network going we'll see soemthing like this. I feel like Yoshi Tatsu / Kidd could be an awesome 30 minute match but there's understandably no way that'll ever happen the way current WWE programming is.

[Hive]

You've heard stories about him being a jerk well over a decade ago. A young guy with an ego that was drugged out. Fast forward to his return, and the only stories you hear about him backstage are about him being a born again christian, helping young talent, and one instance out of a decade of him not wanting to lose to barely mobile 60 year old man. Well, he did end up losing, and he actually made the match entertaining to me (others have stated the same in this topic).

Are you guys even reading what I'm posting? Just yesterday, I heard Triple H saying that HBK has indeed improved, but still from time to time show off his old self. This from one of HBK's closest friends. I can find the link, if anyone is interested. It's on the tube. But oh wait, I forgot that noone in the wrestling business saying anything at all can be trusted... my bad...

And I saw with my own eyes what he did in the match against Hogan and heard others talk about a promo he did afterwards. That's not "backstage stuff from the 90's". Some people think what he did was justified, but he still did it. If he had really grown into a better man, why not take this chance to show Hogan - and the world - that he was a bigger man than Hogan?

A month ago, CM Punk goes out and airs his grievances on air, calling out the boss, his family, other workers and employees and people praise him nonstop. Micaels goes out and says some things along the same lines and you just crap on him as a horrible person.

Yeah but in spite of shooting on guys like Cena, he didn't mess up their match. And Punk was, as already mentioned by Fantabulous, doing this as part of an ongoing storyline. And unless I recall incorrectly, he only took shots at people involved with WWE. Not people who had already left the company.

He might be. I don't know. You don't know. Unless you know him personally, you don't know this. He said she said isn't a way to gather any sort of information.

Oh come on...! We get this from his friends and respected locker room leaders, how can you just dimiss it all?

Even if you do, the only sort of negative he said she said we got the past decade was this whole thing. The rest has been positive. Hell, just a few days ago an article written by former ECW head writer was posted in the topic about Michaels saved the career of CM Punk. It's still he said she said, but, like I said, we get a lot more positive crap coming from him.

Ooooh. So *this* piece of information we can suddenly trust, because that one is *positive* when talking about HBK. This is unreal. :rolleyes:

[bigtplaystew]

This:



You say that the stuff we discuss from behind the scenes is fantasy, as if it were a universal fact.



When did I repeat it as being the universal truth? And you talk about ME mistreating YOUR words...

I'm still looking for reasonable arguments why what Undertaker said should *not* be trusted, btw.

I never said it's all lies though like you previously claimed. See how your argument morphs and changes when you break things down and take them out of context?

I said it's fantasy talk becuse it is. You take hearsay aand represent it as fact... almost as if it's a fantasy. I asked you to quote me saying all wrestlign sstories are lies... so keep trying.

I also never said Undertaker lied. I said he was telling his version which makes it a half-truth. Which it probably is.

Hate to make an MMA point again but if anyone wants to look at the undertaker/Lesnar video after lesnar lost the Cain fight then you'll see he is also a publicity whore who likes to get his name in the media when he gets the rare opportunity to do so. That doesn't make him a liar or a bad person. That makes him a person in the pro wrestling buisiness. Excuse me if I dont trust him as a legitimate journalist trying to get true information to the people. considering he buries people when he's done pinning them and all... like are you for real dude?

[Fantabulous]

About a year ago, Brock Lesnar lost to Cain Velasquez rather brutally. Meltzer reported that Lesnar was going to quit MMA and had doubts about wether he could hang with good MMA strikers in the UFC. I'm paraphrasing. Even though Dana White loled at the craziness of that story, it was discussed on ESPN and all over the internet as if it was actually jornalism so I'm sure you all remember it.

A few weeks later Lesnar was announced as a TUF coach and agreed to fight Junior Dos Santos - one of MMA's most feared strikers.

Point is: he lied.


Actually, the point is that Meltzer never actually reported that Lesnar was going to quit MMA. What he did say was that Lesnar had a definitive idea of where is career was going, including post-MMA, and the copy and paste sites turned that into "Meltzer said Lesnar is going to quit MMA."

[Hive]

I said it's fantasy talk becuse it is. You take hearsay aand represent it as fact... almost as if it's a fantasy. I asked you to quote me saying all wrestlign sstories are lies... so keep trying.

No. By calling it "fantasy", you are implying that it's all just stuff we are imagining in our heads. It's quite frankly pretty provocative.

It's not fantasy, it's based on comments made by HBK's peers. They may not all be true, I don't know - but when several people close to HBK allude to the same things, I find it perfectly fair to discuss.

And I ask you: when did I ever present it as a sure fact?

Hate to make an MMA point again but if anyone wants to look at the undertaker/Lesnar video after lesnar lost the Cain fight then you'll see he is also a publicity whore who likes to get his name in the media when he gets the rare opportunity to do so. That doesn't make him a liar or a bad person. That makes him a person in the pro wrestling buisiness. Excuse me if I dont trust him as a legitimate journalist trying to get true information to the people. considering he buries people when he's done pinning them and all... like are you for real dude?

When have Undertaker directly buried anyone? Have you even seen the interview in question? He doesn't bury HBK and actually speaks very little of it.

I can't help but wonder how many people would have argued against me had it been Hogan or Vince Russo I spoke ill of...

[bigtplaystew]

Remember what we talked about with putting words in peoples mouths??

[Fantabulous]

Also, the Undertake/Lesnar thing was an angle.

[bigtplaystew]

No. By calling it "fantasy", you are implying that it's all just stuff we are imagining in our heads. It's quite frankly pretty provocative.

It's not fantasy, it's based on comments made by HBK's peers. They may not all be true, I don't know - but when several people close to HBK allude to the same things, I find it perfectly fair to discuss.

And I ask you: when did I ever present it as a sure fact?



When have Undertaker directly buried anyone? Have you even seen the interview in question? He doesn't bury HBK and actually speaks very little of it.

I can't help but wonder how many people would have argued against me had it been Hogan or Vince Russo I spoke ill of...


When I said bury I meant that he physically takes a shovel and puts his opponent in a a grave.

[Hive]

Remember what we talked about with putting words in peoples mouths??

When did I do that in my last post exactly?

And again... you claim that I presented those rumors of HBK as facts. So I ask you for the third time without response: show me when. Because I'm sure you're not one to put words in other people's mouths yourself, are you?

When I said bury I meant that he physically takes a shovel and puts his opponent in a a grave.

Fair enough then, I misunderstood.

[Fantabulous]

Because I'm sure you're not one to put words in other people's mouths yourself, are you?
Well, he did claim Meltzer told a lie that he never actually told, so he does.

Oh, you were being sarcastic. Sorry.

[bigtplaystew]

Meltzer took something that wasnt true... and presented it as a news story. I'm sorry if that's not a lie.

And Hive, remember when I cleared up soemthing I said. then you said, "No." LITERALLY. Then you went on to talk about what I really meant lol. That's called putting words in someone's mouth.

[Hive]

And Hive, remember when I cleared up soemthing I said. then you said, "No." LITERALLY. Then you went on to talk about what I really meant lol. That's called putting words in someone's mouth.

I ask you for the fourth time now to show you are better than what you accuse me of being, and present a post in which I present stories of HBK as 100 % facts - like you claim I did.

[juggaloninjalee]

Why are we discussing HBK and Hogan? Last I checked they weren't even relevant right now.

[bigtplaystew]

Why are we discussing HBK and Hogan? Last I checked they weren't even relevant right now.

Agreed. This has devolved into a pointless board war with gross misrepresentation and manipulation of words. It's annoying to read.




I'd really like to get back to the Zack Ryder conversation...

WWWYKI

[DaMegaFish]

I'd really like to get back to the Zack Ryder conversation...

WWWYKI

Rumor has it he likes to sing with the radio.

[Hive]

Why are we discussing HBK and Hogan? Last I checked they weren't even relevant right now.

You know... I honestly cannot remember right now how the discussion started. :D

Agreed. This has devolved into a pointless board war with gross misrepresentation and manipulation of words. It's annoying to read.

I agree with you, you shouldn't have done that. But I forgive you. No worries. :)

I'd really like to get back to the Zack Ryder conversation...

Please do.

[bigtplaystew]

Can't wait till smackdown airs...

Keeping it spoiler free but it was actually one of the better smackdowns I've seen in awhile.

Summerslam is shaping up very nicely. This whole Punk angle is super hot. You guys hear about Gregory Irons? I had no idea this dude even existed until CM Punk brought him up.

He's legit got cerebral paulsy and he lets guys make fun of him and what not. I work in healthcare so believe me I don't enjoy ripping on the misfortunate. However, a guy that is that comfortable with who is, that overcomes that every single weekend when he hits the indies and works just as hard as any of these guys... unbelieveable story. Google it if you feel like being inspired by this goofy buisiness.

[Teh_Showtime]

nobody believed me last month when I said Sheamus would be a great face, I love him.

[bigtplaystew]

Shaemus is great, period.

[Astil]

You know... I honestly cannot remember right now how the discussion started. :D


Sheamus saying Orton was this generations HBK.

Another pointless Forum Argument started by Sheamus! When will it be enough!?!

[Hive]

Sheamus saying Orton was this generations HBK.

Another pointless Forum Argument started by Sheamus! When will it be enough!?!

Oh yeah, that's right. Haha. :D

I like Sheamus. He's got a different look from the rest, good signature moves, a cool accent and a fairly menacing look. I just don't think WWE has been booking him all that well ever since his first title reign.

[bigtplaystew]

Yea dude Shaemus was awesome when he first got to RAW. I think he'll be just fine though in time. Jack Swagger has been booked tragically too ever since he had his world title run.

BTW if anyone is interested in that Gregory Irons story:
http://espn.go.com/espn/page2/index?id=6815920

[Jaysin]

Just so people stop spelling his name wrong, its Gregory Iron

No "s".

[Teh_Showtime]

No spoils but it doesnt look like Sheamus will be Sawggered and depushed.

He has been expanding his moveset too, that springboard shoulder block is sweet

[Jaysin]

No spoils but it doesnt look like Sheamus will be Sawggered and depushed.

He has been expanding his moveset too, that springboard shoulder block is sweet

Is it like the one Hernandez does/did?

[bigtplaystew]

Just so people stop spelling his name wrong, its Gregory Iron

No "s".

Ya sorry never really heard of him until Punk mentioned him. I follow ROH and Chikara a little bit but I'm not really up on all the indies. The dude has an amazing story either way.

[Fantabulous]

On the bright side for Sheamus, if WWE shows continuity and they do bring Sin Cara back, there is a good chance he'll get some TV wins over a popular character.

[Hive]

On the bright side for Sheamus, if WWE shows continuity and they do bring Sin Cara back, there is a good chance he'll get some TV wins over a popular character.

Heh yeah. Though why they haven't thrown him into the Christian/Orton feud as they at one point teased is beyond me.

[Fantabulous]

Though why they haven't thrown him into the Christian/Orton feud as they at one point teased is beyond me.
They don't see him at that level and/or think he'd drag the feud down.

[shroom_v1]

Does anybody think Randy Orton has been watching George Steele videos with his facial features at the minute?

[steesh07]

Is Regal still in a storyline with Novak on NXT?

[Jaysin]

"It's not my fault you guys don't realize I'm Internet Champion"
Zack Ryder>EVERYONE EVER
WWWYKI

Also, Morrison's newish attire is fantastic. Glad he got rid of the fake fur stuff.

[Teh_Showtime]

Wwwyki

[Jaysin]

Can't Cole shut the hell up while wrestlers are doing in ring segments?

[Teh_Showtime]

Smackdown is so Awesome these days

[Jaysin]

Who is the girl with the Skull and Cross bones on her attire?

Also, Alicia Fox is trying to be Rhianna now?

[Jaysin]

Who is the girl with the Skull and Cross bones on her attire?

Also, Alicia Fox is trying to be Rhianna now?

Figured it out, sheesh, AJ is awesome!

and very hot :p

[bigtplaystew]

Figured it out, sheesh, AJ is awesome!

and very hot :p

agreed... she is adorable.

[Jaysin]

If Sheamus and Henry can have half as good a match as the match Henry had with Big Show at MitB, then I'm pumped for this.

[Teh_Showtime]

Sheamus is a fine athlete and has good psychology, it could be good.

Card is shaping up to look very good already.

[bigtplaystew]

Summerslam is looking very nice this year.

Shamus is great but how awesome is Mark Henry? I was at Smackdown this week I'm telling you Shamus got a legit face pop, I felt like mostly because he came out to stand up to Mark Henry. That's a testament to how great Henry has been lately in that monster heel role.

Not to take anything away from the human jar of mayo. He's one of my favorites. Just thought about how surprisingly good Henry has been lately to me.

[Jaysin]

It looks like the Uso's have a tribal version of Ultimate Warrior's logo on their tights.

[Jaysin]

Also, that looked like a knee lift to me, not a neckbreaker

[Linsolv]

Summerslam is looking very nice this year.

Shamus is great but how awesome is Mark Henry? I was at Smackdown this week I'm telling you Shamus got a legit face pop, I felt like mostly because he came out to stand up to Mark Henry. That's a testament to how great Henry has been lately in that monster heel role.

Not to take anything away from the human jar of mayo. He's one of my favorites. Just thought about how surprisingly good Henry has been lately to me.

Well, at least now we know that TEW's portrayal of Menacing Brutes isn't TOO out of line with reality. Mark Henry gets a monster push, and BOOM. Over like mad.

[Teh_Showtime]

holy crap the raw rebound was amazing

[Jaysin]

This whole anger management thing with Orton is soooo lame.

[DaMegaFish]

Can't Cole shut the hell up while wrestlers are doing in ring segments?

You! Don't speak ill of Cole!

[Hive]

If Sheamus and Henry can have half as good a match as the match Henry had with Big Show at MitB, then I'm pumped for this.

Ah, so you're the one guy who actually liked that match.

[Jaysin]

Ah, so you're the one guy who actually liked that match.

It was a good big man match.

[tommyb]

It was a good big man match.

I very much agree. I thought Henry vs Show was very entertaining.

[steesh07]

I very much agree. I thought Henry vs Show was very entertaining.

As did I, not a fan of either but it was good for two blokes who I don't find entertaining in the slightest.

[bigtplaystew]

yea Show / Henry was pretty decent. It's not 5-star match or anything but for what I wanted and expected it delivered.

I like that they are taking some time to build Henry a little bit. It's not like a masterful character creation or anything, but they are taking their time with him and building him to what will most likely be a big Orton feud that will be much more interesting in the long run.

[ShaunGBD]

yea Show / Henry was pretty decent. It's not 5-star match or anything but for what I wanted and expected it delivered.

I like that they are taking some time to build Henry a little bit. It's not like a masterful character creation or anything, but they are taking their time with him and building him to what will most likely be a big Orton feud that will be much more interesting in the long run.

WHAT!?! Not 5 star? How dare they?

[bigtplaystew]

Yea I was clearly saying that I WASNT expecting a 5 star match or anything...

[20LEgend]

I was glad they kept it short, I think that's why it was enjoyable. Such as well booked PPV.

[ShaunGBD]

Yea I was clearly saying that I WASNT expecting a 5 star match or anything...

I know I was joking.

[ShaunGBD]

I was reading Bill Goldberg record got to 173-0, did they show all of those on TV and PPV or did that count house shows.

[20LEgend]

I was reading Bill Goldberg record got to 173-0, did they show all of those on TV and PPV or did that count house shows.

I've read that house shows counted as well.

[cappyboy]

I was reading Bill Goldberg record got to 173-0, did they show all of those on TV and PPV or did that count house shows.

As I recall, that was intended to include house shows. But I believe that explanation was put out to cover some fudging to make the record sound more dramatic.

[ShaunGBD]

Just base on TV, what should the record been around?

[Gabbo]

As I recall, that was intended to include house shows. But I believe that explanation was put out to cover some fudging to make the record sound more dramatic.

Yeah. They said house shows, and it was probably did contain a few house show matches but in reality the record was just a mass of exaggeration.


On TV it was around 30. If that.

[ShaunGBD]

I'm playing TEW and I have Styx at 49-0, I wanted to know what he had to beat.

[Blake Trask]

Can't Cole shut the hell up while wrestlers are doing in ring segments?

Agreed. He really hurts the angles a lot of the time.

[ShaunGBD]

http://www.7-eleven.com/Inside-7-Eleven/Promotions/Default.aspx

Where Punk, I love how he made a big deal about not being on the cups and he resigns and what change... nothing.

[Teh_Showtime]

CM Punk has the IWC gimmick...

[GhostDogg]

Damn....

I am LOVING this Punk Storyline...

[20LEgend]

Skinny, fat ass, did he say that?

[jjohns44]

What a promo! Just like the old days when they would give you a beginning hook and keep you watching through the rest of the show.

[Mr Rager]

Brilliant opening segment.

[angeldelayette]

Skinny, fat ass, did he say that?

I thought the same thing. If I had been CM Punk, I would've lifted my microphone and said 'Skinny, fat, huh?' lol.

[Teh_Showtime]

"This could be a train wreck."

Cole is pure gold at this point.

[20LEgend]

"Meanwhile, a battle royal is going on" - Jim Ross is back :D

[ShaunGBD]

I took a shower during the Women match. Still not over, good timing.

If I recall they sign Kelly Kelly out of a magazine but they also signed another girl (a black girl.. I believe) what happened to the other girl?

[Teh_Showtime]

Beth is back... finally!

[angeldelayette]

Great to see Beth Phoenix win tonight and return to her heelish ways! She is quite possibly the hottest WWE Diva ever!

The Miz and R-Truth cracked me up.

[20LEgend]

I can not believe the amount of "commercials" on this :eek:

[MrCanada]

Beth turning is the best thing ever. Way better heel then face.

If WWE has balls to do it, they would let her DOMINATE the women's division for about a 10 more months, only to run into Kharma who comes and promises to take her out for all the bad things she's done and how turning her back on her friends will bite her in the end.

[Teh_Showtime]

Well she is Punk's GF so it is possible

[Teh_Showtime]

this is terrible. JoMo is 0-2 :(

watter bottle of doom ftw though

[ShaunGBD]

Cole:"Johnny just got got."

[ShaunGBD]

this is terrible. JoMo is 0-2
who was his first match back again against?

Did Honky Tonk Man really have the IC belt 2 years in a row?

[Teh_Showtime]

Morrison lost to Christian on SD.

and Honky Tonk had the longest IC title.reign ever I think.

[ShaunGBD]

Man, this topic dead quick.

Time for AIR!!

[angeldelayette]

Alberrrrrrrrrto Del Rrrrrrrrrrrrio!

[ShaunGBD]

Is that true about funding the wrestling team?

[20LEgend]

^ I think so

[20LEgend]

Push Zack Ryder :p

[angeldelayette]

So does Johnny there have an 'Ace' up his sleeve?

[Teh_Showtime]

Hopefully Johnny Ace doesnt turn into Russo from 2000-1

[angeldelayette]

There's a big shocker. Triple H doesn't have the balls to make a real decision and leave the true belt on CM Punk where it belongs.

Reminds me of when JJ Dillon didn't have the guts to keep the belt on Sting after Starrcade 1997.

Sorry Mark moment. :)

[Teh_Showtime]

Yeah I dont see how beating a weakend Rey is a legit claim, but whatever. Im just dissapointed that he wont ever get a rematch.

[Hive]

It's semi-old by now, but I hadn't seen it before. Pretty funny. David Arquette vs. Chris Jericho:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzFsPrE5yeQ&feature=related

[crownsy]

Yeah I dont see how beating a weakend Rey is a legit claim, but whatever. Im just dissapointed that he wont ever get a rematch.


YEa, i've been very underwhelmed by the turn this story has taken, though the punk promo at the begging was good.

and I agree 100%, i hate when they do the "this guy forgot he gets a rematch" move. and i know it's wrestling, so these things will never be addressed and i'm supposed to tunr my brain off but....

1. Who was the annonomus GM for the last year and a half? The podium is gone now, so I am assuming the gimmick is over...I don't care if Trip had simply said "one of the changes I'm making is that the GM is gone." but at least, you know, address why and how a major gimmick is simply gone with no warning.

2. Why does Cena deserve a rematch on a title that A) he did not compete in the tournament for and B) has never held, lineage wise?

3. Rey had a whole backstage segement about how important the title is to him, how it's his dream, how he's taking it home to show the kids ect....and this week he doesn't even interact with the title hunt?

I agree with Pwtorch's assessment, which Punk pretty much confirmed on bill simmons pod cast, this stroyline was going to build to Cena v. Rey at summer slam, then have the unification belt at night of champions (which makes sense) but the E' panicked, and now we are getting an incredibly disjointed and rushed version of the story thats getting the point across but leaving giant plot holes (why cena got a rematch, but rey doesn't, why Trips would give a damn what Johhny Ace had to say, ect.)

Still a fun storyline and it's given us Punk reborn as just a M/E level wrestler who speaks his mind, but not the payoff i was hoping chicago would be.

[Hive]

1. Who was the annonomus GM for the last year and a half? The podium is gone now, so I am assuming the gimmick is over...I don't care if Trip had simply said "one of the changes I'm making is that the GM is gone." but at least, you know, address why and how a major gimmick is simply gone with no warning.

Maybe it turns out to be Johnny Ace?

[bigtplaystew]

Rey might get a RAW title rematch next week but that seems unlikely as they appear to be building soemthing with him and JMo vs Truth and Miz.

Rey also might come out and challenge whoever wins at summerslam. Cena could win at SS and Del Rio could cash in MitB... then Rey could come out and make his claim for the rematch against Del Rio. Who knows?

[jjohns44]

I am surprised that WWE has been holding onto Evan Bourne, and every once in a while he'll hit a winning streak like in his feud with Swagger and he manages to make it on TV and in high profile matches like money in the banks. He's a good wrestler, just surprised they seem to have a spot for him 3 years into his TV debut.

[shawn michaels 82]

Yeah I dont see how beating a weakend Rey is a legit claim, but whatever. Im just dissapointed that he wont ever get a rematch.

Cena? Well, he won the title from Rey, a la heel. THis confuses me! How? Using his rematch clause? Still...isn't he suposed to be the good guy? I don't think the wwe worked well there. And as for Rey, i still have hopes he will have a rematch. Most likely after the Punk-Cena thing is over.

So...what you guys think about the "Two WWE champions" thing?

[Teh_Showtime]

Just read an article on B/R that had a source with Punk saying Rey vs Cena rematch was to be on for SS but they jumped the gun with Punk and the WWE title match was supposed to be Night of Champions.

[Teh_Showtime]

Punk's backstage powers are in full effect now.

Colt Cabana worked a SD dark match at the tv taping tonight.

[bigtplaystew]

As Colt Cabana or as Scotty Goldman?

[20LEgend]

I don't know but after the recent promos him coming back as Goldman would be stupid. It must be as Colt, well other than the naming rights problem they seem to have.

[Teh_Showtime]

It was as Colt, he lost to Wade Barett

[djthefunkchris]

If I remember right, he's been on as Colt before (way before the Scotty Goldman thing). I think on heat or something like that, it might have been... I'd have to go searching again, but I'm sure you can find some older footage (before they even hired Punk) of Colt wrestling as Colt for the WWE/F in the past.

Seriously would be weird if they hired him as Scotty Goldman again. I think the Colt Cabana thing has spread enough (even before Punk's rant, although that definately helped him out big time) to bring him in with his own name.

I believe I read a while back (when the whole name debacle about Punk was going around) that CM Punk was on a talk show of some sort, and talked about changing his name so he could work and people would recognize him, as MC Punk, and other such varieties. He had a few idea's (he was joking more then anything). I found the audio of that before everyone was saying he didn't want to sign because WWE wanted to buy the rights to his name... yet from that older audio, they had already bought the rights.

I would imagine Colt's name is going to be bought by WWE as well, if he works out. Probably about three years (if that's how long the contract is) from now.


Quick search and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtEQ3QgukdU, there he is against Eugene on Heat, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BXG0llr7yVE&feature=related is against Matt Hardy also using his Colt Cabana as his name.

[bigtplaystew]

I was udner the impression that MVP and CM Punk were the last two that signed a deal where they could wrestle as their names under their respective gimmicks because they come up with them.

Merchandising and licensing is a whole new ballgame. I wouldn't be shocked if they can WRESTLE under their WWE names but cant sell merch, action figures, appear in video games, etc. without WWE licensing getting involved.

I'm sure Colt hasn't signed anything yet and is free to use whatever name he wants.

[lazorbeak]

There's two marks in the freely searchable trademark system for Punk, one filed 3-28-2007, and a new one filed 6-22-2011. They cover: "Clothing, namely, tops, jackets, bottoms, underwear, pajamas; footwear, namely, shoes, sneakers, slippers; headwear, namely, hats," while the old 2007 mark covered "Entertainment services, namely, wrestling exhibitions and performances by a professional wrestler and entertainer; providing wrestling news and information via a global computer network."

So as of today, WWE has rights to the wrestling name and merch.

Edit: Colt Cabana has no registered trademark, so if he used his own name it would presumably involve signing over his rights to the character.

[liontamer]

just watched raw, didn't understand the comment by CM punk about HHH in bed with steph. was there a reference there or am I just a bit naive on something? The crowd seemed to eat it up though.

[Moe Hunter]

It's basically in reference to his 2002-2005 reign of terror. "I just don't know if he's got what it takes" refers to the likes of Booker T, RVD and Jericho who all got summarily dismissed by Triple H during that time. Jericho obviously did get the belt, but it's no secret that Triple H didn't like him, and the booking definitely shows that they didn't really give Jericho the ball to run with.

The implication made by CM Punk is that "creative meetings" were held in the McMahon-Levesque bed, instead of in board rooms, and as such talented performers got screwed over.

[TrekkieMonsta]

There's two marks in the freely searchable trademark system for Punk, one filed 3-28-2007, and a new one filed 6-22-2011. They cover: "Clothing, namely, tops, jackets, bottoms, underwear, pajamas; footwear, namely, shoes, sneakers, slippers; headwear, namely, hats," while the old 2007 mark covered "Entertainment services, namely, wrestling exhibitions and performances by a professional wrestler and entertainer; providing wrestling news and information via a global computer network."

So as of today, WWE has rights to the wrestling name and merch.

Edit: Colt Cabana has no registered trademark, so if he used his own name it would presumably involve signing over his rights to the character.

To my knowledge Punk still owns the rights to his name, he's just allowed them to use it on merchandise.

[lazorbeak]

To my knowledge Punk still owns the rights to his name, he's just allowed them to use it on merchandise.

Not according to the United States Patent and Trademark Office. http://www.uspto.gov/

WWE owns the marks for both the professional wrestler and the merchandise.

[Stennick]

Lazorbeak is right and its just bad for business to not own the rights to something like that. Even "The Rock" is or atleast was trademarked by the WWE to the point where Vince got "producer" credits in movies he was in. (IE paid as a producer for allowing them to use the Rock name).

LB aren't you involved in the legal field in some manner?

[lazorbeak]

Lazorbeak is right and its just bad for business to not own the rights to something like that. Even "The Rock" is or atleast was trademarked by the WWE to the point where Vince got "producer" credits in movies he was in. (IE paid as a producer for allowing them to use the Rock name).

LB aren't you involved in the legal field in some manner?

I am. The trademark search function on the uspto site is free and pretty easy to use though, so it's not like you need a law degree to appreciate it.

But, the lawyer-ly distinction is the distinction between the TM and the (R) designations. Basically anybody can put TM next to a name or a gimmick, which means basically nothing except you can keep somebody two towns over from stealing your business name/gimmick/whatever when he comes into town, but once it's federally registered you have a stronger legal position. Most indy guys don't feel the need to register their gimmicks since they own the name as long as they came up with it. Samoa Joe is one of the few indy guys who still has his own registered trademark separate from TNA.

And WWE has registered the "CM Punk" mark on both people wrestling as CM Punk and anyone selling CM Punk t-shirts.

[djthefunkchris]

As I said, Punk himself was talking about ways to get around it, when he was actually considering leaving. This interview was before the whole storyline started (and before the talk about them wanting to buy his name come up), so I figured WWE has had his name for a while now, just out of common scense. It's another reason why I figured he had already signed a contract, or they knew he was going to sign a new contract, when the MOTB thing started, because of all the "false" rumors that he wasn't signing because they wanted to own the name, and of course as I said, he already talked about how he had to change it somehow way before this. I liked the MC Punk idea (his words) myself, just wonder if he could pull it off (you know, the rapper gimmick part that would have to come with it). He felt he could change the initials and name around enough that they wouldn't be able to do anything about it (they, meaning the WWE).

When the whole name dispute come up AFTER this interview (one of the reasons I'm having a hard time finding it right now, is because of how long ago I listened to it.), I figured the whole thing to be part of the storyline, to get people to believe he might not come back for real. Name value means alot more to us I believe (Us as in the fans), then it actually does to the wrestler's themselves.

EDIT: You know, I think it might have been a link in this thread, or something that lead to it from a link in this thread... I just can't remember exactly where I heard it, or what the show was called. I believe it was some sort of websight interview if memmory serves me right.

Not really that important, as from above, they have owned his name in some form since 2007.

[bigtplaystew]

Well, gotta love a guy like Lazorbeak who actually does his homework and lays it out. Rarely on a message board does someone actually know what they are talking about and back it up lol... bravo, sir.

[ShaunGBD]

http://network.yardbarker.com/mma/article_external/the_rock_vs_john_cena_match_reportedly_could_be_sc rapped/5937664

You have to do it, you book the match the day after WM, good or bad you have to do it. I do like the fact that due to them wanting to cancel it, they won't book a year in advance. Also, you knew Cena will get booed when you booked it, why the change of heart? Lastly, The article said it might be HHH who doesn't want it, made me chuckle a bit. of course it's him.

[bigtplaystew]

That story has wrestling journalist BS written all over it. My favorite writer in the universe Dave Meltzer broke that story this morning. It screamed of BS then too.

Try this one:

http://www.lordsofpain.net/news/wwe/Vince_McMahon_Says_The_Rock_Will_Appear_At_Several _Upcoming_WWE_PPVs.html

Not that LoP is any better, but McMahon said during a WWE investor conference call that The Rock will be at MORE ppvs because they like the money. No way is the WM 28 match that has been building all year being taken away. It's the most exciting WM in a very long time. Rumored returns of Foley and Stone Cold are only going to propel the event further.

A Rock/Cena WM28 main event is a huge ticket item for them. Rock merch has been doing well all year. Travel packages for WM28 sold out in two days. Barring injury to one or both of the two guys doing the match, I can't see the WWE being stupid enough to screw this up.

[Teh_Showtime]

Yeah that was during some call in questions when discussing their 2nd quarter earnings. PPV numbers were up for every PPV from WM to MITH except Over the Limit

[Fantabulous]

I can believe Triple H being the 'influential voice' because the arguments against it fit his old-school style of thinking when it comes to wrestling logic and he's made them before concerning Wrestlemania main events.

But hey, I'm sure Meltzer made it up like he made up the story about Lesnar quitting MMA. Oh, wait; he never made that claim. Never mind.

[bigtplaystew]

I can believe Triple H being the 'influential voice' because the arguments against it fit his old-school style of thinking when it comes to wrestling logic and he's made them before concerning Wrestlemania main events.

But hey, I'm sure Meltzer made it up like he made up the story about Lesnar quitting MMA. Oh, wait; he never made that claim. Never mind.

Dont wanna let that go, huh? Well, smartypants, I couldn't find the Yahoo story originally because they take stuff down after awhile. But check out some articles and posts talking about the story and in some cases directly quoting it. Best I can do.

http://www.fightline.com/fl/news/2010/1227/535022/brock-lesnar/

http://www.mixedmartialarts.com/news/289505/Dave-Meltzer-Brock-Lesnar-is-looking-for-a-way-out-of-the-UFC/

http://m.bleacherreport.com/articles/555395-sources-brock-lesnar-may-leave-ufc-eyes-wwe-return

http://www.mmafighting.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-37787.html

I dunno why you keep saying it never happened because it did. Guess your memory sucks. You can appologize to me whenever you're ready.

[Linsolv]

He said that Dave Meltzer made comments that were mis-interpreted as saying Brock Lesnar was looking to leave the UFC. I don't know or care what the truth is, but linking to other people summarizing his statements doesn't prove him wrong, it proves him right.

[bigtplaystew]

Well the original story was taken down, probably due to embarassing inaccuracy lol. what can I do except provide links of other articles quoting the story? Don't tell me something didnt happen when it did.

We can sit here and use semantics until we make anything say what we want. But Meltzer reported that he ha "sources" (my favorite... when they never tell you where this crazy information comes from) Lesnar was trying to quit MMA. That DID get reported.

I used it as an example of bad journalism because it's directly proven to be lies. Lesnar shortly agreed to be on "The Ultimate Fighter" and he and Dana White had to do some damage control and talk about how Lesnar was NOT quitting MMA. Dont believe me? Throw, "Lesnar not quitting MMA" or "Lesnar not quitting UFC" into a google bar and do the research yourself.

Maybe the Lesnar story is a bad example because it happened so long ago that now people can twist it to say whatever they want it to say, but look at the story that was posted above that happened TODAY. LOL at the idea of the Rock/Cena match not happening. Later in THIS VERY DAY lol Vince McMahon is quoted as saying that the Rock will show up at more PPVs yet wrestling journalists STILL went ahead with that crazy nuts story.

It's our fault as wrestling fans. We want to believe we have some kind of grasp on backstage nonsense but we only know what is given to us, and probably not even that much. Journalists know we eat up backstage stuff. So if they hint at the possibility of a guy like Triple H trying to swash people, we eat it up as wrestling fans rather than use our brains and realize whats realistic and what's silly.

If you are saying Melzter reported it differently then back it up. I backed up my argument the best that I could, taking stories that talked about the story since it was taken down. It was actually originally reported on the radio show I believe. Either way, if I'm wrong I'll admit it, but back it up. you cant just say, "Meltzer never said that" when he clearly did.

I'll accept that apology whenever you're ready :-)

[MrOnu]

1. Who was the annonomus GM for the last year and a half? The podium is gone now, so I am assuming the gimmick is over...I don't care if Trip had simply said "one of the changes I'm making is that the GM is gone." but at least, you know, address why and how a major gimmick is simply gone with no warning.

*wave hand in a Jedi-like fashion* There never was a Annonymous GM for RAW.

[MrCanada]

If I recall they sign Kelly Kelly out of a magazine but they also signed another girl (a black girl.. I believe) what happened to the other girl?

The black girl was Victoria Crawford, aka Alicia Fox.

[bigtplaystew]

The anonymous GM angle was stupid anyway. If they just drop it it's better than having to force a bad reveal. In my opinion anyway.

[Dragon]

just watched raw, didn't understand the comment by CM punk about HHH in bed with steph. was there a reference there or am I just a bit naive on something? The crowd seemed to eat it up though.

HHH and Steph are married in real life.

Won't spoil it, but being at the Smackdown taping. The crowd was nuts for Orton

[tommyb]

The anonymous GM angle was stupid anyway. If they just drop it it's better than having to force a bad reveal. In my opinion anyway.

I agree. Whatsmore, if the anonymous GM just goes away, the idea can always be brought back later if needed to introduce a new authority (not what a lot of people would want, but always best to keep options open), which wouldn't be the case if it was given closure by making a reveal which wouldn't be that good (unless they could get someone good in).

[sebsy]

1. Who was the annonomus GM for the last year and a half? The podium is gone now, so I am assuming the gimmick is over...I don't care if Trip had simply said "one of the changes I'm making is that the GM is gone." but at least, you know, address why and how a major gimmick is simply gone with no warning.


*wave hand in a Jedi-like fashion* There never was a Annonymous GM for RAW.


The podium has been on all of the last few episodes of Raw, it just hasn't been used. Presumably the email alert will go off at some point over the next couple of weeks and the GM will say that they didn't want to step on HHH's toes or something or they were given a few weeks off by HHH and things will continue as before.

[shawn michaels 82]

http://us.wwe.com/superstars/wherearetheynow/where-are-they-now-kiss-demon

Interesting reading, wouldn't you say? Another of WCW's botches. Could it have been bigger? Sure...a lot bigger...but the whole idea was just benefiting Kiss at the end of the day...

[sebsy]

Melina abd Vladimir Kozlov both released.

Bit surprised about both tbf, although also not surprised if that makes sense :D

Melina was pretty much the dominant diva for a long time but it seems her attitude got her demoted down the pecking order over the last 18 months or so.

Kozlov also, whilst not the best or most exciting worker, was someone I didn't particularly expect to see released soon. Would be hard to ever have him as a viable main event heel though after the way he has been used over the past 18 months.

Presumably there are more releases to come as they usually have quite a few releases every year, although normally a little earlier than this.

As long as they don't go and release someone like Drew McIntyre, someone who they can still actually do something big with, then I'll be happy.

[djthefunkchris]

The podium has been on all of the last few episodes of Raw, it just hasn't been used. Presumably the email alert will go off at some point over the next couple of weeks and the GM will say that they didn't want to step on HHH's toes or something or they were given a few weeks off by HHH and things will continue as before.

I was reviewing a few things on youtube, and thought I seen it as well, and you just confirmed it. I don't think the anonymous GM ever did anything when Vince was on either. Just figured if a "higher" authority is on, the anonymous GM doesn't have to be.

I am one that don't really dislike it, at least not as much as other's. What always makes me wonder about things, is how whenever something grabs our attention like the Punk stuff, people seem quick to bring up something NOT being mentioned, when they seemed to hate it in the first place. Out of all the things that they might forget about, I never thought people would be like "Dang it! What happened to the Anonymous GM!! I want him back or I want closure!!!" Me on the other hand, being a fan of both the anonymous GM gimmick, and mainly what it has done for Cole, I do want closure or it brought back. I even liked the weird voice they gave it for one show.

I think the term "nit picky" comes to my mind when I see stuff like this. I understand the reason people are always so quick to point out stuff they think is lacking/being ignored/forgotten about, etc. It's the speed in which stuff is pointed out, and the fact that there is no way they could know anything about it yet. Maybe they did, and the things on the podium for house shows, pre-shows, or after-shows, just for the live crowd, but we can't possibly know if it's gone or not for good yet. If the thing come up while HHH or Vince was around, it wouldn't even make sense... Why would ANY general manager try to change anything that a higher power is doing, unless it was part of the storyline.... like HHH vs. The Anonymous GM. Just don't make any sense.

If it comes back, I suspect it will be on a show that HHH or Vince is not going to be on. Might be sooner then we think.

[sebsy]

And just a few seconds after my previous post, Chris Masters is also released.

[sebsy]

I was reviewing a few things on youtube, and thought I seen it as well, and you just confirmed it. I don't think the anonymous GM ever did anything when Vince was on either. Just figured if a "higher" authority is on, the anonymous GM doesn't have to be.

I am one that don't really dislike it, at least not as much as other's. What always makes me wonder about things, is how whenever something grabs our attention like the Punk stuff, people seem quick to bring up something NOT being mentioned, when they seemed to hate it in the first place. Out of all the things that they might forget about, I never thought people would be like "Dang it! What happened to the Anonymous GM!! I want him back or I want closure!!!" Me on the other hand, being a fan of both the anonymous GM gimmick, and mainly what it has done for Cole, I do want closure or it brought back. I even liked the weird voice they gave it for one show.

I think the term "nit picky" comes to my mind when I see stuff like this. I understand the reason people are always so quick to point out stuff they think is lacking/being ignored/forgotten about, etc. It's the speed in which stuff is pointed out, and the fact that there is no way they could know anything about it yet. Maybe they did, and the things on the podium for house shows, pre-shows, or after-shows, just for the live crowd, but we can't possibly know if it's gone or not for good yet. If the thing come up while HHH or Vince was around, it wouldn't even make sense... Why would ANY general manager try to change anything that a higher power is doing, unless it was part of the storyline.... like HHH vs. The Anonymous GM. Just don't make any sense.

If it comes back, I suspect it will be on a show that HHH or Vince is not going to be on. Might be sooner then we think.


Like you I've never had a problem with the Anonymous GM, to a certain point anyway. While I don;t mind the idea, it now seems to have dragged on and the more it goes on, the bigger the reveal is going to have to be for it to be worthwhile imo. Of course, whoever it is revealed to be (if it ever is revealed) will make no sense what so ever given the things the Anonymous GM has said, mostly in the early months of it's usage.

[The Final Countdown]

And just a few seconds after my previous post, Chris Masters is also released.
According to her Twitter, Gail Kim is gone also.

[Teh_Showtime]

Hopefully with Melina gone, JoMo can get pushed again.

He has literally looked like crap since his return, even going to SD to get buried.

[juggaloninjalee]

Wonder who else is going to be dropped. Gail Kim to TNA only to manage Beer Money again?

[shawn michaels 82]

Like you I've never had a problem with the Anonymous GM, to a certain point anyway. While I don;t mind the idea, it now seems to have dragged on and the more it goes on, the bigger the reveal is going to have to be for it to be worthwhile imo. Of course, whoever it is revealed to be (if it ever is revealed) will make no sense what so ever given the things the Anonymous GM has said, mostly in the early months of it's usage.

Dude...it's pro wrestling. It's like portuguese soccer: What today it the truth, tomorrow shall not. It never makes sense. It would never work if they always (every single time, every single storyline) followed the cannon strictly. That's not even possible to do. Other than that, we, as the rest of the IWC, are nit picking. We're the Sheldon Cooper's of wrestling. If it's not on the house sharing agreement, we immediately dispize it. :D

Ps: And then we open TEW and go do things like hire Batista and possibly pitting him as WWE champ. (not yet decided, but if it happens, not my finest hour,i admit.) :D It's really different when he have all the inside information. We just speak of an outsider perspective.

Edit: DH Smith also released...

[The Final Countdown]

Hopefully with Melina gone, JoMo can get pushed again.

He has literally looked like crap since his return, even going to SD to get buried.
I wouldn't be surprised to see him request his release now too. Not saying he will or should, just that it wouldn't surprise me if he did.

[sebsy]

David Hart Smith released.

[Teh_Showtime]

This is surprising, well sort of. Surprising that Tyson Kidd is doing better than his former partner despite being way smaller. It was dumb to break up the Heart Dynasty anyways.

[Bigpapa42]

So its 5 gone so far - Melina, Kim, Smith, Koslov, and Masters. Might be more coming...

[lazorbeak]

Hopefully with Melina gone, JoMo can get pushed again.

He has literally looked like crap since his return, even going to SD to get buried.

Yes, by losing a competitive match to a world champion while they sold he was not at 100%.


Also it seems like a colossal waste to cut Melina, even though she hadn't won a match since her idiotic heel turn and had clearly po'ed somebody over the Wrestlemania thing. The crowd still reacted to her in the ring in a way that they still don't (and never will) for somebody like Alicia Fox.

[Teh_Showtime]

Just saw that melina was the Diva's focus today too lol

Edit: And Lazor, he didnt need to take a loss there, its not even his show. Why not someone like Bourne who isn't doing anything?

[The Final Countdown]

This is surprising, well sort of. Surprising that Tyson Kidd is doing better than his former partner despite being way smaller. It was dumb to break up the Heart Dynasty anyways.
Not to mention that DH is the son of the Bulldog/nephew of Bret, while Tyson's only a family friend. And yeah, there was no reason for them to split the team up. A split so they can do a quick half-assed feud and then go on to do absolutely nothing? Great.

[lazorbeak]

Just saw that melina was the Diva's focus today too lol

Edit: And Lazor, he didnt need to take a loss there, its not even his show. Why not someone like Bourne who isn't doing anything?

I'm just lol-ing at the idea of taking one loss to the world champ, who in theory is the #1 or #2 guy in the company, is getting "buried." Why would Bourne even merit a match against Christian?


And yeah, the WWE loves split-ups that lead to neither party being pushed. The Harts are following in the grand tradition of Crime Tyme and the Colons.

[juggaloninjalee]

http://us.wwe.com/superstars/wherearetheynow/where-are-they-now-kiss-demon

Interesting reading, wouldn't you say? Another of WCW's botches. Could it have been bigger? Sure...a lot bigger...but the whole idea was just benefiting Kiss at the end of the day...

Yeah interesting read for sure. Dale was big and I think would have been better if he wasn't rushed and jobbed out.

[Teh_Showtime]

I see some Ex-NXT guys in line to go out today. Although Tarver alread has been fired. Just please keep Baretta.

[20LEgend]

Surprised but most disappointing by DH Smith I liked him, wonder where he'll go? He's talented but I can't / kinda don't want to see him in TNA.

[The Final Countdown]

Surprised but most disappointing by DH Smith I liked him, wonder where he'll go? He's talented but I can't / kinda don't want to see him in TNA.
Maybe Japan?

[Teh_Showtime]

He could fit in well with ROH

[Prophet]

Wasn't DH Smith training to jump to MMA?

[shawn michaels 82]

I'm just lol-ing at the idea of taking one loss to the world champ, who in theory is the #1 or #2 guy in the company, is getting "buried." Why would Bourne even merit a match against Christian?


And yeah, the WWE loves split-ups that lead to neither party being pushed. The Harts are following in the grand tradition of Crime Tyme and the Colons.

In Crime Tyme case...that was a blessing. I really hated that gimmick and the team itself.

Yeah interesting read for sure. Dale was big and I think would have been better if he wasn't rushed and jobbed out.

Indeed! Well, the guy still marks for it though, so i guess he really loved it.

[The Final Countdown]

He could fit in well with ROH
I wouldn't say no to that, but I'd be a lot more interested if Tyson was cut as well and ROH brought them in as a team. That'd help offset the impending loss of the Kings of Wrestling.

[lazorbeak]

It's strange that WWE is trying so hard to do something with Kidd, pairing him up with managers, putting him on TV, giving him something to do with NXT, etc. I mean he's a very solid worker but he's small and can't talk; what do you do with a guy like that when you don't have a tag team division or a cruiserweight division to put him in?

[Teh_Showtime]

Tyson has a match tonight on SD, he has been getting the most TV time of superstars regulars the last few months.

[Teh_Showtime]

Morrison just had a super long tweet regarding Melina, doesnt look like he will request his release, seemed very impersonal and business-like

[MrCanada]

Hopefully these leads to the end of the brand split. Each brand now has 10 people it seems.

Edit:

So far the only real loss is Masters who has been impressing me a lot lately. Smith is a shame, he's a great worker, but thats it. Kozlov leaving gives Ryder a place with Santino. And women are women. Gails a good worker but is just like Smith, not much else. Melina has always been terrible in my opinion.

Now I just wonder if they are going to purge FCW as there is A LOT of crap down there.

Bring back Gallows and Cabana.

[Teh_Showtime]

well SD doesnt seem to have a split as of late

[ShaunGBD]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUWCek89_Fw

Sorry if it been posted before, what did everyone think?

[bigtplaystew]

Masters was fun to watch for me personally. The dude has arguably the best body in pro wrestling and had amazing goofy heel potential. They always messed up with him I thought. I hope he finds a home somewhere because i really like watching him.

Melina was an eye-catching talent and I'm surprised they didnt use her properly as I agree she got an excellent crowd reaction.

DH Smith I liked alot but the dude was kind of a zero in terms of personality. Still, him and Kidd got over and I never got why they broke that up. I guess WWE just hates tag teams. Someone once told me that this was because of contractual reasons. That WWE hated negotiating with teams and prefers to negotiate with talent individually. I don't know how true that is but at least it's SOME reason why they bring guys in as teams and always break them up while they are gaining popularity.

Gail Kim has never been used properly and she'll hopefully be going back to TNA. WWE has nothing for a good looking girl that can ALSO wrestle... this is obvious.

Kozlov has been used improperly as well in my opinion. I liked him as a monster heel type. I like him and Big Zeke togeter with Regal in the ECW days. It was funny putting him and Santino together and they definately got over, but they did it too long and now ruined any kind of potential he had in that monster heel role - which he is obviosuly built for.

[ChrisKid]

Koslov: In my opinion has been made nothing more than a joke so had to go
Kim & Melina: I don't really follow diva storylines so not really caring much
DH Smith: Ever since they spit up the Hart Dynasty WWE has pushed him out of the company
Masters: Wasn't used properly

I think that soon people like Tamina, Kidd, Tatsu & Rosa Mendes may be going if there are more releases

[Teh_Showtime]

You cant follow Diva storylines cause there aren't any <_<

[stratusfaction]

I'm sad to see Melina and Gail Kim go from WWE but Gail hasn't ever been pushed like she deserves to be and Melina has been blacklisted for sometime now.

I think it would be great to have Melina and Gail Kim go to TNA. I would also like to see Chris Masters in TNA too.

I think it's save to say that there will be more releases soon. On the Diva frontier I see them getting rid of Rosa and Tamina and hopefully the Bellas too lol

[Teh_Showtime]

With DH's release I think anybody can go now, family name doesn't seem to be able to save them, although Tamina has been.on SD a few times recently.

[lazorbeak]

I want a Chris Masters/Marco Corleone feud in Mexico, presumably starting over a pec flexing contest.


Also Koslov really never improved in-ring; even during his Santino team-up days he'd often appear very sloppy and didn't know what to do to cover his mistakes.

[bigtplaystew]

The Bellas arent going anywhere. They are WWE workhorses. They do tons of live shows and personal appearances. Rosa Mendez is talented but they dont use her either.

I was thinking they were holding on to those types until the network launches. I'm sure there will be "C" level shows ont heir where they'll be used.

[MrCanada]

I think Tyson Kidd is pretty safe because he's a perfect jobber to the stars, much like Evan Bourne.

If they are going to cut more people, here's my shortlist of who are most likely on the chopping block:
Curt Hawkins
David Otunga (more of a personal wish)
Drew McIntyre
Heath Slater
Hornswoggle
Johnny Curtis
JTG
Kaitlyn
Matt Striker
Primo
Rosa Mendes
Tamina
Trent Barreta
Tyler Reks
Yoshi Tatsu (though I doubt it, they need a Japanease guy)