The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Arrows]

A good example is something Arrows said, about being beat up for 80% of the match, then coming back and winning makes the other guy look bad. Some other's said they agreed and everyone should read it carefully... as if we should all somehow agree that it's the truth. IMO, the reality of it is that most people "get it", and know that the match was "meant" to make it look like the guy who won, did it by the skin of their teeth. "IF only he didn't make that mistake, he would have won it" bassically. You know how they meant it to look, and more times then not, that's exactly what these "unsmart" fans see it as. Just because they don't say "Heel" or "Face" or use terms like ringwork, doesn't mean they don't "Get it".

So they're being paid MILLIONS of dollars a year to _NOT_ be able to do their jobs in a way that put across the story they're trying to tell?

Actors would be blacklisted for doing such a horrid job of making something look a certain way.

[SaySo]

So they're being paid MILLIONS of dollars a year to _NOT_ be able to do their jobs in a way that put across the story they're trying to tell?

Actors would be blacklisted for doing such a horrid job of making something look a certain way.

An actor who brings a company MILLIONS of dollars and does a horrid job will still remain in the company because he brings them MILLIONS of dollars.

An actor who doesn't bring a company MILLIONS of dollars and does a horrid job, he will be backlisted and probably doing T&A porn.

[Bigpapa42]

I just watched the Best Of Raw 10 on VHS last night, that is 1998 Jan and Feb. What the hell was Goldust doing at that point. Marlyn Manson-dust and Hunter-Dust :D

Ken Shamrock was immense.

The Goldust imitation stuff was great.

Shamrock was a great character. Not that a great of an in-ring talent, though. Not poor but just adequate for a WWE talent. Which, I think, highlights the great difference between that era and this - characters. Even low-level talent back then had unique characters. Now, most of the midcard talent are completely interchangeable.



The things that always bother me when people compare, is they always compare the "Best Of" these era's (much like you, I have found myself doing the same thing) to compare with the "Norm" or even the "Worst" of the current era. It's those one time instances over a period of time that makes the whole era seem so gold and shiny, not the week by week stuff. IF you was to go back (to include people like me that were hooked during the 80's), and watch episode by episode, week by week, in order, you will find that there was just as much bad as there is now, and the fact most didn't look like it the way they do now.

Very much. This is something I came to realize with my first WCW project - so much of the show to show stuff that is done really doesn't matter that much. Its throwaway and fans forget in a hurry. And really, the same can be said of the current WWE product. A great deal of what us fans dislike is stuff that doesn't matter, isn't really supposed to matter, and won't be remembered. Not to say that all the problems fit that - many don't. But some do.

Another thing that people do alot of (and I'm not innocent either), is compare what they see, and try to believe it looks a certain way to someone that isn't as smart as myself (Smark... whatever you want to think of yourself as). In other words, I don't think it's fair to say "Because such and such happened, fans are going to think "this" way, although I know better because I'm smarter, it's going to look a certain way to their "normal" fans." In reality, it looks the same way to them as it does to me, and they get alot more then people think they get.

The term "smark" bothers me a touch because the intended connotation. It infers that the "smark" is indeed somehow smarter than the average fan. To me, the difference between an average wrestling fan and a hardcore fan (those you might term smarks, like most us) isn't that the average fan doesn't "get" all the little things. More typically, its that they don't care. They aren't seeking out rumors or debating things on a website because they just don't care to bother with it to that extent.

You can see this with just about anything. Music, movies, TV shows, sports... Pick any half decent TV show and you can probably find a dedicated forum - or at least entire section of a bigger forum - where they discuss and debate every detail of the show. They will break down and analyze absolutely every aspect of it. They may also worry about the business side of the show - the TV ratings, contract status of the actors... Those are things most viewers/fans of the show don't worry about. Breaking down and analyzing every aspect isn't something the average fan does. Its not that its beyond them or they miss all of those - some may, but not all. They just don't bother to go to that depth of fandom with it.

[20LEgend]

The Goldust imitation stuff was great.

Shamrock was a great character. Not that a great of an in-ring talent, though. Not poor but just adequate for a WWE talent. Which, I think, highlights the great difference between that era and this - characters. Even low-level talent back then had unique characters. Now, most of the midcard talent are completely interchangeable.


Goldust is always great from the stuff I've seen vs. The Undertaker, and all the way through imitation and Booker T I've always liked him.

Shamrock wasn't great in ring but he was TOTALLY believable as a psycho I saw him go crazy on the ref and then Chainz (I think) and 4 guys had to hold him down. It was crazy. Also on that video Steve Blackman was awesome he did a submission in a match where Jackyl was doing a promo troughout and it was pretty cool!

[lazorbeak]

I think the exciting think about WWF in 1998 was the new-ness of it. Austin wins the title in March, and almost every guy at the top of the card not named "The Undertaker" is brand new at that level. Kane was brand-new, Triple H was rising up the card, The Rock came into 1998 as a heat magnet and by September/October was getting cheers about even with Austin's, it was just an exciting time because every top level match-up was fresh.

But yeah, I've seen 1998 WWF stuff recently enough to remember a lot of it is junk. TAKA wrestling 10 minutes on Raw in front of a crowd that may be sleeping, the horrid, horrid "brawl for all," everything the LOD did that year. I actually think Cornette's evil NWA stable wasn't such a bad idea, but at the time nobody cared.

I think that's one of the big things WWE's forgotten since they have no competition: fresh faces are pretty much essential to the business. A guy that comes to your territory only has maybe a year or two before he should be moving on to the next territory, or seeing him stops being a big deal. When Cena and Batista both won at Wrestlemania the yearly numbers were up, but if they're still around 5 years later, that bump disappears as we've seen everything they can do and we've seen them fight everybody. I mean Cena/Undertaker is the only major feud we haven't seen out of Cena in the past six years, because they had their feud 8 years ago before Cena was a top level babyface.

[Arrows]

An actor who brings a company MILLIONS of dollars and does a horrid job will still remain in the company because he brings them MILLIONS of dollars.

An actor who doesn't bring a company MILLIONS of dollars and does a horrid job, he will be backlisted and probably doing T&A porn.

On that, I'll /nod, and walk away.

[VTial]

The thing is, "Little Jimmy" that loves John Cena isn't that far away from the fans that watched Hogan back in the day, and it's the same excitement for them now as it was for me back then, and other's during the Attitude era.

I think this is my main problem with the golden periods.

I don't want to beat a dead horse but this is why I often compare basketball wit pro-wrestling.

Almost everyone who have lived through Bird/Magic to Jordan knew the difference between the two eras. This was because they understood that they were getting two quality products. But then some vocal users start trying to rationalize why Lebron is popular and then they come up with this myth that they are the same and then they get picked up by newer fans and a new meme logic is adapted via the combined efforts of apologists and newer users who tried to gather info from older ones and see these kinds of comments.

I don't mean to insult you but you are just wrong. Elsewhere someone accused me of being like a smark but I don't think people realized that smarks are the ones who are often guilty of this and who often produce this.

Any viewer who has lived through all three times knew that the Attitude era was different from Hogan's era and even more so, Cena's era. Three eras can be exciting but different. I'm not trying to discredit your opinions but come on, if you were a mark in all those periods, you can't say when Cena gets booed and cheered at the same time, it's the same as Hogan channeling the hopes of the crowd. It just farts in any type of logic.

They may both be exciting... they may both give you that feeling that there's a crowd praising them...but it's not a case of excitement. It's a case of how and why and what was exciting about them. You see these tons and tons of times. Even at Leno's peak, if you rationalize Leno as Conan to the older audience, you would be wrong. Even at Jordan's peak, the ones who actually watched the games knew that Jordan was great because he was doing something different from Bird and Magic. He wasn't the Bird and Magic of his generation which is why he was exciting. Austin wasn't the Hogan of his generation which is why he was exciting. (You could argue for Goldberg but Austin and Hogan were not the same characters.) It's the same with Cena.

No matter how you try to rationalize this, it's only the smarks in each of us, regardless whether you consider yourself a smark or not that converts this into the same criteria because we see something that's on top that's being appreciated by what we feel is the same number of people. We don't take into account that maybe the WWE just has gotten bigger and most wrestling fans don't have alternatives. That most people are just regular TV viewers. They see the WWE as a brand and not a show where you can switch to ROH, Puro, TNA and to these people if Cena gets pushed, that means Cena is quality so Cena is to be cheered for because he's the main event. Just like any top face that has been pushed by any company on top. Where as Hogan is an outlier in the sense of being "this" but also being above "this". He was Carson to Leno. He was Jordan to the Kobes, the Vince, the Lebrons, the Walt Fraziers, the Sloans, the Barrys... he was not just some guy who was pushed. He was some guy who brought something new to the old but also brought something that the new couldn't replicate and had to be pushed down in our throats to get the masses going.

The quality and the value of the modern crowd alone is not electric. Even if you think these are the same wrestlers that were booked in the same way that have the same popularity...guess what? The kayfabe numbers alone are vastly different to even come close to the same excitement.

[Moe Hunter]

Because a retcon of this sort would've been way too obvious, and they're trying to make new stars which would've been completely counter-productive to just slap the belt back on the main man a night later.

Not that I believe this botched ending theory anyway. Somehow I think it was legit. If it weren't, it would've probably blown up all over the Internet in reports.
It could easily be done in-story.

Cena: "I know I can beat you in a regular fight. I challenge you tonight and I'll pin you 1-2-3, because I know I'm the better man".
Sheamus: "We'll see about that, fella."

It's a stronger premise than Rey vs Cena the other week.

[bigtplaystew]

Kinda random, but I've managed to get my grubby hands on all the WWE programming from 1998. Start to finish, all of the pay per views, Raw is War episodes, and Sunday Night Heat (with one or two exceptions). I started watching through them in order. Not quite to WM.

Its definitely interesting. I was watching during this period, on a mostly week to week basis, but its odd what you forget and what you remember.

I've found myself getting annoyed of late at people who like to paint the Attitude Era as some kind of golden period in pro wrestilng. It was most definitely a good period to be a fan, and there were some things that were much better then. But I think a lot of fans (myself included) have a tendency to remember the good and play down the bad when looking back. So its interesting to watch episodes of Raw is War on a week to week basis, to see what the undercard and throwaway angles were like. I find myself making the inevitable comparison to today... and today doesn't look so bad at all. The current product doesn't look great - and its definitely lacking in certain areas... Yet the actual in-ring wrestling is no worse today, match to match. That's just looking at early 1998, not the entire Attitude Era. But I do find its making me appreciate certain aspects of the current product a bit more.

As fond as we remember our Stone Cold beer truck moments... we forget the Godwinns/Southern Justice haha.

You have a point though. I definately look back at 1997-2000 ish as the best period of wrestling in my lifetime / awareness period. But the undertaker DEFINATELY curcified stephanie mcmahon.

But I still loved the Attitue Era because it's when I was ALL IN on wrestling.

I like it today though as much as I ever did. I mean that. Wrestling is pure fun for me.

[djthefunkchris]

I think this is my main problem with the golden periods.

I don't want to beat a dead horse but this is why I often compare basketball wit pro-wrestling.

Almost everyone who have lived through Bird/Magic to Jordan knew the difference between the two eras. This was because they understood that they were getting two quality products. But then some vocal users start trying to rationalize why Lebron is popular and then they come up with this myth that they are the same and then they get picked up by newer fans and a new meme logic is adapted via the combined efforts of apologists and newer users who tried to gather info from older ones and see these kinds of comments.

I don't mean to insult you but you are just wrong. Elsewhere someone accused me of being like a smark but I don't think people realized that smarks are the ones who are often guilty of this and who often produce this.

Any viewer who has lived through all three times knew that the Attitude era was different from Hogan's era and even more so, Cena's era. Three eras can be exciting but different. I'm not trying to discredit your opinions but come on, if you were a mark in all those periods, you can't say when Cena gets booed and cheered at the same time, it's the same as Hogan channeling the hopes of the crowd. It just farts in any type of logic.

They may both be exciting... they may both give you that feeling that there's a crowd praising them...but it's not a case of excitement. It's a case of how and why and what was exciting about them. You see these tons and tons of times. Even at Leno's peak, if you rationalize Leno as Conan to the older audience, you would be wrong. Even at Jordan's peak, the ones who actually watched the games knew that Jordan was great because he was doing something different from Bird and Magic. He wasn't the Bird and Magic of his generation which is why he was exciting. Austin wasn't the Hogan of his generation which is why he was exciting. (You could argue for Goldberg but Austin and Hogan were not the same characters.) It's the same with Cena.

No matter how you try to rationalize this, it's only the smarks in each of us, regardless whether you consider yourself a smark or not that converts this into the same criteria because we see something that's on top that's being appreciated by what we feel is the same number of people. We don't take into account that maybe the WWE just has gotten bigger and most wrestling fans don't have alternatives. That most people are just regular TV viewers. They see the WWE as a brand and not a show where you can switch to ROH, Puro, TNA and to these people if Cena gets pushed, that means Cena is quality so Cena is to be cheered for because he's the main event. Just like any top face that has been pushed by any company on top. Where as Hogan is an outlier in the sense of being "this" but also being above "this". He was Carson to Leno. He was Jordan to the Kobes, the Vince, the Lebrons, the Walt Fraziers, the Sloans, the Barrys... he was not just some guy who was pushed. He was some guy who brought something new to the old but also brought something that the new couldn't replicate and had to be pushed down in our throats to get the masses going.

The quality and the value of the modern crowd alone is not electric. Even if you think these are the same wrestlers that were booked in the same way that have the same popularity...guess what? The kayfabe numbers alone are vastly different to even come close to the same excitement.

Just a FYI, I'm 44 years old, and I lived through all three era's. I'm just alot more objective then most people my age. I don't see the cup as half empty, as it's always half full to me. My biggest time was during the 80's, Hulkamania, I was at the first Wrestlemania, something I had no idea was going to be a yearly thing at the time. I felt the electricity, I seen Muhammed Ali live for the first time in my life (I was a huge fan of his). My favorite wrestler was Jimmy Snuka, etc... This is when I loved wrestling, couldn't wait for the next Piper's pit.... stuff like that.

I can also say that when I go back and watch this stuff, there is only really.... A handfull that was actually all that electric. Yes, the whole Wrestlemania thing felt larger then life, and it felt like the biggest thing on Earth to me, but when I watch the old shows, when I see the whole cards, as I see it now... I realise I wasn't all that into every little thing that was going on. I wasn't necessarily paying that much attention to all the title's. The thing is, I only really had a handfull (perhaps a dozen) wrestler's that I actually kept up with, and forgot half the other's that were around on the same show, at the time.

I can look at number's, and see how "Popular" things were at different times, but all in all, nothing has changed to the extent as some would have me believe. I've been just as guilty as anyone else in believing these things, but when I look back at them, I have to admit that it wasn't like that show after show, or even PPV after PPV. There were definately electric moments, as you describe, but they weren't on a weekly basis, as much as my memmory of that era would want me to believe.

I wasn't trying to compare one wrestler to another, I was trying to compare new fans to older fans (when they were new fans). I'll just put it like this, I have friends that have kids, and I have my kid (who will be 21 in december). No matter what I youtube for them, no matter what I bring up... it's not going to compare to the things they feel are "electric" or exciting... the reason being is because they weren't there for that, but are here for this. IS it exciting to see the Rock? Sure... But most the kids talked about how he fell when he tried to jump off his back onto his feet, moreso then about how good he was on the mic.

It's like the MITB match between Cena and Punk..> I have yet to see anyone admit what happened in that match, here. I seen it hinted on, but no one wants to suffer the consequences of saying how Cena was able to hide Punk's flaws in that particular match (there, I said it). I can't stand Cena's character anymore, and I certainly hate the way most of his match's go (Always getting his butt beat throughout the whole match, then coming back at the end). I would definately book him differently, and I do believe the way his match's go, is one of the biggest things that bother's me.

But I'm from the past, and I'm going to remember the best of the past, and compare it to the "norm" of today. That's just the nature of how things go. You remember the whole time period of those era's as "Electric", but in all honesty, although there were definately "Electric" moments, they weren't the "Norm" of the whole time period. To me, Taker versus HBK was "Electric", in both Wrestlemania's. To me Taker vs. HBK when HBK kicked up at the same time Taker sat up in the Royal Rumble, was an "Electric" moment. To me John Cena vs HBK (Both match's) was electric. To me John Cena and Kurt Angle battle rapping was electric, as well as his things with RVD, Big Show, and various other's. Lately, to me the Punk vs. Cena thing is electric, and Punks off the cuff promo that started it all was beyond quite alot of things I think were Electric from the past.

I could give you a ton of things from the past as well... Snuka in Piper's pit.... Hogan slamming Andre, Austin and the beer truck, Austin and Tyson, Hogan vs The Rock, etc. It's in the eye of the beholder, and I feel I always remember things "better" then they actually were... All I have to do is watch a "Full" show to realise that.

[VTial]

I can also say that when I go back and watch this stuff, there is only really.... A handfull that was actually all that electric. Yes, the whole Wrestlemania thing felt larger then life, and it felt like the biggest thing on Earth to me, but when I watch the old shows, when I see the whole cards, as I see it now... I realise I wasn't all that into every little thing that was going on. I wasn't necessarily paying that much attention to all the title's. The thing is, I only really had a handfull (perhaps a dozen) wrestler's that I actually kept up with, and forgot half the other's that were around on the same show, at the time.

I can look at number's, and see how "Popular" things were at different times, but all in all, nothing has changed to the extent as some would have me believe. I've been just as guilty as anyone else in believing these things, but when I look back at them, I have to admit that it wasn't like that show after show, or even PPV after PPV. There were definately electric moments, as you describe, but they weren't on a weekly basis, as much as my memmory of that era would want me to believe.

Kayfabe has changed. That alone blows things apart. Then there's the internet. Again, mind blower. Changed everything from the exposure of smaller companies and added everything from it being easier to follow the storylines or knowing more about your favorite wrestlers.

I'm not saying any era is golden or perfect. I'm saying because some vocal oldies "look back" they create this mythology that it wasn't as special as it was.

The fact that you're looking back with newer knowledge is already working against your brain in the same way that your favorite toy as a kid will never compete with most of your recent videogames even the bad ones unless you hold some nostalgia or sentimental memories from it.

What's worse is that a group tries to present this impression as truth and many newer members pick up on this and they try to "youtube" the old videos and they end up getting the same vibe and in turn created an apologist mythology that was never there.

This:

I wasn't trying to compare one wrestler to another, I was trying to compare new fans to older fans (when they were new fans).

...is pretty much what I'm saying also. When I bring up someone like the Ultimate Warrior or Hulk Hogan or anyone else, I'm not talking about the man alone in the same way when people bring up Jordan, they don't simply talk about the basketball player alone. They bring up his fundamentals, his uniqueness, his energy at the time, how he created the marketing for him and it wasn't like the revision that he was overtly marketed like the young stars today, etc. In every famous human being there are always the legendary acts, the historical clues pointing out to the truth and the popular myths accepted and rationalized as facts of him. All these combine into symbols that can mean something beyond just individual to individual. It can deal with how some new fans to older fans compare them (when they were new fans).

When something is bigger than itself, there's no explaining it. You can only present the flaw in someone's mindset for how they deluded themselves into thinking it's the same. I and no one can bring up a youtube video to tell them how the times was. Not even watching every match can explain that moment.

Finally:

It's like the MITB match between Cena and Punk..> I have yet to see anyone admit what happened in that match, here. I seen it hinted on, but no one wants to suffer the consequences of saying how Cena was able to hide Punk's flaws in that particular match (there, I said it). I can't stand Cena's character anymore, and I certainly hate the way most of his match's go (Always getting his butt beat throughout the whole match, then coming back at the end). I would definately book him differently, and I do believe the way his match's go, is one of the biggest things that bother's me.

I don't get the relevance of this post. You already said you weren't comparing one wrestler. So why analyze this now?

If you want to bring it as a showcase for why people overrate certain events and underrate certain events. No problem.

However you putting this as a part of your reply to me makes no sense.

In summary, I don't doubt you are sincere with your feelings, just remember that as much as there can be nostalgia - there can easily be people who unconsciously revise the events that take place in their head. I may be a little too harsh in calling these people apologists but there's no way to explain it otherwise besides calling it faulty memory and that's more insulting to the rationale of any person. We all want to interpret our memories. We all think we know how to perfectly simulate our memories and compare it with the events of today. Many of us even want to justify mediocre or stupidity as progress. It doesn't change the fact that the facts are too different nowadays. Too big and too different of events to even claim both are remotely the same.

[FINisher]

It's like the MITB match between Cena and Punk..> I have yet to see anyone admit what happened in that match, here. I seen it hinted on, but no one wants to suffer the consequences of saying how Cena was able to hide Punk's flaws in that particular match (there, I said it).

You sure that wasn't a typo there? Cena hiding Punk's flaws? Err. What?

What the Punk/Cena match did was expose Cena's lack of wrestling skills. He blew way too many spots and also since the match wasn't his usual 'Getting beaten for 20min then make a Superhero comeback and win' it clearly disturbed the pace of the match aswell as Cena's timing since Cena had to actually think. :rolleyes:

[Self]

Punk wasn't blameless in that match. He messed things up too. The more babyface he gets, the more high kicks and springboards he attempts, the worse he tends to look.

Also, Cena impressed me with some of his chain wrestling in that match. He wasn't a wizard, don't get me wrong, but he did some grappling. Kudo's.

[Hive]

Punk wasn't blameless in that match. He messed things up too. The more babyface he gets, the more high kicks and springboards he attempts, the worse he tends to look.

Also, Cena impressed me with some of his chain wrestling in that match. He wasn't a wizard, don't get me wrong, but he did some grappling. Kudo's.

As much as I dislike Cena, I'll have to agree with this. Cena had one of the best matches I've personally seen him have, while I've seen Punk a lot better than what he delivered here in terms of fluid in-ring work and botch-free spots. He still did good though, but I agree that he blew just as many spots as Cena in that particular match. Doesn't matter though, it was the story that made the match what it was - not so much the in-ring work.

[Fantabulous]

Cena hid Punk's flaws? That's a good one. I'll have to remember that if I ever need a good laugh.

They both blew spots but they were going so long, and I think it showed that they're best matches from a quality standpoint are probably ones kept to around twenty minutes; less time to do more moves means less botches.

[Hive]

They both blew spots but they were going so long, and I think it showed that they're best matches from a quality standpoint are probably ones kept to around twenty minutes; less time to do more moves means less botches.

I agree. The reason they often had much longer matches back in "the old days" was that they didn't incorporate as many "spots" as they do nowadays, but just did old fashioned chain wrestling and rest holds much more.

[Fantabulous]

I agree. The reason they often had much longer matches back in "the old days" was that they didn't incorporate as many "spots" as they do nowadays, but just did old fashioned chain wrestling and rest holds much more.

It wasn't just that that. They did more ga-ga between the spots and holds. A lot of little things that you just don't see in WWE these day.

[bigtplaystew]

I think he must have meant Cena. You guys know that Punk doesn't get his butt kicked then fight his way back and that's not what happened at MitB. Before MitB Punk was booked pure heel and usually did the whoopin. I can't recall a Punk match that describes this while people on this very thread have been spending the last several days screaming about how all John Cena ever does is get destroyed and then do the 5 moves of doom and come back unscathed (like many big faces throughout wrestling history but John Cena is the one taking the heat for it right now).


At MitB the match went back and forth beautifully and was, in my opinion, a highlight in Cena's career over the last two or three years. It's one of his best matches. The same can be said for Punk. I got no problem with Punk's ring work normally but that was one of the biggest matches of his career and he stepped up and ran with it. I don't think this angle could have been nearly as interesting as it has been if that match wasn't as fantastic as it was.

[Teh_Showtime]

It has made Cena actually work in all of his matches since too. Like against Mysterio and Swagger. I am enjoying his ring work more than ever right now.

[Fantabulous]

What the Punk/Cena match did was expose Cena's lack of wrestling skills. He blew way too many spots and also since the match wasn't his usual 'Getting beaten for 20min then make a Superhero comeback and win' it clearly disturbed the pace of the match aswell as Cena's timing since Cena had to actually think. :rolleyes:
Cena just isn't a smooth worker. He can do plenty of 'moves' but he tends to look clunky when doing them. And we'll not even bring up his god-awful punches.

[Teh_Showtime]

he has a nice gutwrench suplex though.

[bigtplaystew]

So if Cena was as horrible as some of you are saying at MitB... why was there internet buzz all over the place about how it was a great match?

Is it possible that you are the problem? That you can't put aside your Cena hate for one friggin match that the rest of the world enjoyed?

Not to mention... some people keep breaking down this Cena match with the utmost care in their criticism. For someone you hate so much you clearly watch all of his matches with keen eyes.

[djthefunkchris]

Cena just isn't a smooth worker. He can do plenty of 'moves' but he tends to look clunky when doing them. And we'll not even bring up his god-awful punches.

I remember a match on RAW a while ago, that he had someone in the corner and I guess he was supposed to look like he was going all out with punch's....... We all started laughing, because he was swinging like a little kid (or girl for that matter), and it looked really bad. I've seen this from him a few other times as well. Yeah, going to have to say his punching needs alot of work, especially when he's supposed to be doing a flurry.

@VTial: I tend to bring up other things in my posts, and I forget to say "Not meant as a reply to the quoted", and I should remember. I have to say I agree with you on alot of your posts..... For example: As big as Wrestlemania felt to me, I couldn't here myself yell when Hogan come out. I mean, the noise was so loud, for almost the entire match, that we (my friends that went with me, and myself) couldn't talk to each other at all, unless we were doing some form of made up sign language. I walked away from that spectacle thinking I seen real magic.

So yeah, I can agree with alot of what your saying. I can't think of ANY other time that was even close to that... unless it involved Hogan. I wasn't a Hogan fan, but I couldn't help cheering for him *and Mr. T, at Wrestlemania.

[Arrows]

So if Cena was as horrible as some of you are saying at MitB... why was there internet buzz all over the place about how it was a great match?

Is it possible that you are the problem? That you can't put aside your Cena hate for one friggin match that the rest of the world enjoyed?

Not to mention... some people keep breaking down this Cena match with the utmost care in their criticism. For someone you hate so much you clearly watch all of his matches with keen eyes.

One match, in which both men botched stuff, might I add, doesn't make someone great.

It's not the first GOOD match Cena's had. He just can't carry the noboby scrubs they throw him against each month to great.

HUGE difference between having someone like CM Punk/Shawn Michaels to work with, and having someone like R Truth.:rolleyes:

Btw, third man(rumble winner) for BD/Punk at Mania? Evan Bourne.:p

[bigtplaystew]

Evan Bourne title push would be awesome.

[Fantabulous]

As anyone actually called Cena a horrible worker? I've seen people describe him as less than a great worker and point out his flaws but I don't think anyone has called him horrible at all. And he isn't horrible. He just isn't great, either. He's good enough to carry his load, can keep up with the great workers but has enough weaknesses to keep him from being considered great.

[djthefunkchris]

As anyone actually called Cena a horrible worker? I've seen people describe him as less than a great worker and point out his flaws but I don't think anyone has called him horrible at all. And he isn't horrible. He just isn't great, either. He's good enough to carry his load, can keep up with the great workers but has enough weaknesses to keep him from being considered great.

Hogan, Austin, The Rock. With the exception of possibly Austin before his injury, I don't know if I would consider any of them "Great" workers. Promo greats, definately, Charasmatic, definately, etc. Ringwork, I think they did their jobs. Even Austin when he reached the height of his popularity was after his neck injury.

I'd venture to say that it's a trend. I remember when Hogan had his moves of doom as well (for example).

I think what people have a problem with is that it seems like the expectations are much higher with the new guys, as opposed to the older ones. Maybe that sounds apologetic, I'm not sure if I actually got that meaning down right yet, but if so, I don't mean for it to sound quite like that. More like, I think the standards are an unreasonable measure when in comparison, it's not like Cena today is that far behind any of the other's from yesturday, far as ringwork goes. I don't think he flows as well at times, but I'm not trying to say he's as good as... Just that it's not like he's eons away.

[Carmichael]

im pretty sure that cena will be calling everything in the ring vs any opponent, so any match he has, will also have a massive input from him beforehand too. which is why i think hes a great worker, the punk/rvd matches are legendary imo and i imagine he would be the guy doing most of the work in those.

[Arrows]

Hogan, Austin, The Rock. With the exception of possibly Austin before his injury, I don't know if I would consider any of them "Great" workers. Promo greats, definately, Charasmatic, definately, etc. Ringwork, I think they did their jobs. Even Austin when he reached the height of his popularity was after his neck injury.

I'd venture to say that it's a trend. I remember when Hogan had his moves of doom as well (for example).

I think what people have a problem with is that it seems like the expectations are much higher with the new guys, as opposed to the older ones. Maybe that sounds apologetic, I'm not sure if I actually got that meaning down right yet, but if so, I don't mean for it to sound quite like that. More like, I think the standards are an unreasonable measure when in comparison, it's not like Cena today is that far behind any of the other's from yesturday, far as ringwork goes. I don't think he flows as well at times, but I'm not trying to say he's as good as... Just that it's not like he's eons away.

Who KNEW beyond any doubt, Hulk Hogan would beat Andre?

Who could ever predict the Austin/Rock wars, or any war they had with ANYONE else during that period? Sure, you could kinda see the booking, but there was no THIS is what's gonna happen.

Fast forward.

Cena is Hogan II. Same basic idea. Far worse heels. Same booking concept. How come EVERY match Cena's been in pre-MITB with the exception of his bout with Sheamus (Sheamus tried his hardest to hit that table, including pulling it down with him when he went to the floor. It wasn't a botch? Why'd he try so hard to break it?) has been glaringly obvious who'd win?

Orton bashed his head in with a chair while he was handcuffed to a steel post, and never once during the entire beat down did anyone in the world go "Cena's gonna quit!"

It's never gonna happen. Cena doesn't know how to even make it LOOK like it's going to happen. Then he turns around and makes it look like the beat down never happened six seconds later when he needs to do his moves because he doesn't know how to sell an injury AND do his moves at the same time.

Cena isn't on their level, he's not even close.

[Teh_Showtime]

Um but how is he not on their level if Hogan did the same exact stuff? Is it because Hulk made it look like he was gonna quit?

Predictable? Like when he would join Nexus if he lost?

[codey]

Cena is Hogan II. Same basic idea. Far worse heels. Same booking concept. How come EVERY match Cena's been in pre-MITB with the exception of his bout with Sheamus (Sheamus tried his hardest to hit that table, including pulling it down with him when he went to the floor. It wasn't a botch? Why'd he try so hard to break it?) has been glaringly obvious who'd win?



Would you please just drop the Sheamus thing? No one ones to talk about it anymore or read your repeating thoughts on it.

[Arrows]

Um but how is he not on their level if Hogan did the same exact stuff? Is it because Hulk made it look like he was gonna quit?

Predictable? Like when he would join Nexus if he lost?

Pretty much everyone knew he was gonna lose, and even knew the two new members would be the reason for it.

And yea, Hogan made it look like he was going to get defeated. That made the bad guys more hated, more feared, and made people want to see Hogan fight back that much more, because how dare that villain destroy Hulkamania and crush the dreams of so many kids.

Cena, just...wins, with no danger whatsoever.

[Gabbo]

I'd venture to guess you believed Hogan was going to lose bcause you were a kid and a mark, whereas you're now watching Cena as a grown man and smark.

That and the fact you seem to have a really intense and irrational dislike of Cena.

There are things Hogan did worse than Cena, like selling. He'd bump but rarely sell, after a match or even during a match, I can remember as a kid being infuriated with the concept of 'hulking up' which basically meant no selling your opponents offence or previous attack and destroying someone in a matter of three moves, big boot, body slam, leg drop. Hogan was a decent wrestler over in Japan but far more often than Cena in the WWF he'd revert to that basic formula.

[Teh_Showtime]

So you must have missed the part when the entire internet was shocked that Barrett won? Not to mention the casual fan since he couldn't have any help.

[supershot]

because how dare that villain destroy Hulkamania and crush the dreams of so many kids.

I'm pretty sure this is how the Little Jimmy's feel about Cena :p

[Gabbo]

Also Hogan was Champ for over 4 years straight during Rock 'n' Wrestling, that shows he was far less likely to lose than Cena, or believed to lose less likely than Cena and if you did think he was going to lose it's again probably because you were a mark.

[Fantabulous]

So, I hear Sheamus was meant to fall through a table in his Tables match Cena last year. Any truth to it?

Cena being part of Nexus was another storyline that could have gone on for a while with a slow build of tension as Cena is forced to help the heels and hurt the good guys until he finally snaps and makes a long-teased and long awaited comeback. Instead, it was pretty much done and dusted inside of a few weeks. And we'll just forget about the Cena being fired deal which I think, more than any other stipulation match they've run and not followed through on, killed all their stipulations dead when it comes to meaning anything

[Teh_Showtime]

Didn't he end Andre's kayfabe 15 year streak?

Back then once he did that I wouldn't think it possible for him to lose to people obviously inferrior to Andre

[20LEgend]

On SD! They referenced the "new/ replacement" Sin Cara has put on a bit of muscle. His manorisms were a touch different from what I've seen but he looked very similar (not that hard I know :p)

Edit: They mentioned he had added some new moves to his repetior to and in ring he looked really different to me. He also "had some trouble with his mask". It''ll be weird when Mistico comes back, I'm actually wondering if they may do some storyline with this because if they reference change and then go back it'll be weird

[shawn michaels 82]

People only want to hear the good stuff. Human beeings are cynical. WHy do the Cena haters have to shut up and the Cena lovers (there are some here that don't come out of the closet, no pun intended) or guys who don't like or dislike him that much have the right to speak? I'm sorry, but Cena haters are entitled to have their opinions voiced just as the next man, as long as they do it respectfully. And i didn' saw any cena haters disrespecting anyone while reading this. Cena Sucks, he always will. My greates gripp (Correct word?) with him is the fact that the super cena has been shoved down my throath for years and years. If it wasn't for that, i'd probably not hate him. Maybe dislike, but not hate. He has mick skills, he sells merchandise, bla bla. But the man sucks in a ring. He doesn't sell and he can't put on a belieavable (while spectacular at the same time) offense. He sucks! He's not by far the worst ring worker in the world, but he's not good enough (in the ring work part) to main event. Sure, some will disagree, but it's my opinion and i'll stick to it, as others will stick to theirs. Cena is definitely not worse than recent years hogan, that's for sure.

But the point is: Cena is what the WWE makes of him. They could find another star to sell merchandise. Hell if they couldn't find one that sold as much as him, than they would push more guys to get the same numbers. HE won't last forever. Hiding behind the excuse that he sells merchandise to justify all of his flaws is pathetic and idiotic and if the WWE doesn't start to produce new solid ME's , than they will feel the consequences.

Ps: I'm not answering to any specific poster, i just read this and decided to give my 2 cents.

Edit: I have no problem to say i've been using Cena as a ME (for now, and not as my top ME) on my WWE game. The guy gets the job done in the entertainement part; but that's just about it. And in the long run that will make him go down the card. He will not be fired as he can help others develop their entertaining skills. But beeing my top guy? No, not now, not ever.

[Teh_Showtime]

There is a difference between stating an OPINION and blindly ignoring facts. When people spew Cena hate, they never notice all of the good he brings and dismisses it as a one off.

[Stennick]

He has mick skills, he sells merchandise, bla bla. But the man sucks in a ring. He doesn't sell and he can't put on a belieavable (while spectacular at the same time) offense. He sucks! He's not by far the worst ring worker in the world, but he's not good enough (in the ring work part) to main event. Sure, some will disagree, but it's my opinion and i'll stick to it, as others will stick to theirs. Cena is definitely not worse than recent years hogan, that's for sure.

Its your opinion and you can stick to it all you want. I'll even be generous and not say your opinion is wrong but its certainly skewed and backwards reasoning and that illogical reasoning is certainly cause for your strange opinion.

Basically you're say "I know that John Cena does GREAT with charity, he's fantastic on television, he looks the part of a franchise "wrestler", he's fantastic with his entertainment skills and oh by the way he makes us a TON of money in merchandising. But this guy should not be the top guy in an ENTERTAINMENT company. I guess because Michael Bay doesn't spend three hours developing a characters backstory him and the billions of dollars his movies have made don't deserve to be at the top of hollywood either?

This is not Ring of Honor its Sports Entertainment. There was an old adage that Ric Flair could get a *** match out of a broomstick. Which basically meant "no matter who you are even if you're an awful wrestler Ric Flair can get a *** match out of you.". I would say the same holds true for Shawn Michaels and the internet says the same holds true for CM Punk. So if John Cena is so awful why is it he's had better matches with BOTH those guys than more talented guys? Let me ask you a question would you rather see Joe vs. CM Punk in a ninety minute draw? Or the Money in the Bank match? There is no wrong answer but they are completley different types of entertainment and both support the best of two very abstract sub genres of this particular entertainment field.

Still your point is that John Cena is a bad wrestler and because of that he shouldn't be the top guy even though he's the most recognizable full time wrestler they have, he makes more money in merchandise than any one else, he's loved by all the media outlets, he's clean as a whistle (best we know) in a business thats been nearly crucified by drugs and death lately. Not too mention he's a fantastic entertainer and has proven against Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Cm Punk and other guys that when its time to bring it he can and does.

But the point is: Cena is what the WWE makes of him. They could find another star to sell merchandise. Hell if they couldn't find one that sold as much as him, than they would push more guys to get the same numbers. HE won't last forever. Hiding behind the excuse that he sells merchandise to justify all of his flaws is pathetic and idiotic and if the WWE doesn't start to produce new solid ME's , than they will feel the consequences.

So let me get this straight. Once again (for the millionth time) you're saying "I don't care that John Cena makes more money merchandise wise than everyone else. I don't care that he's more popular than everyone else. They could push FIVE guys in his place and those FIVE guys would be as popular as his ONE guy and ther merch would equal this ONE guy's merch."

Ummmm in what business world do we say "we have this one product that is making us a ton of money. So lets focus in on these other five products we think are better and maybe COMBINED they'll make us much money as this mainstream product.". Hate the iPhone? No problem lets scrap it and create FIVE phones for FIVE times the price and then they can equal this ONE phone's profits. Except for they don't because you're spending FIVE times more to promote, market, pay and maintain that product than you are for this ONE already established product.

I could go on but honestly when you say things like "Merchandise blah blah blah" and "anybody can fit into the role" or "we'll find another". It shows me that you really don't understand business. You don't just find "another" product. You ride that product until the wheels fall off.

People should how John Cena's stale and CM Punk's character is so fresh he's the next Rock or Austin and attitude era this and that. Look at the ppv buyrate number for Money in the Bank. There most interesting, jaw dropping, captivating storyline in years and you know what it sold? The same EXACT amount as Extreme Rules which was John Cena and The Miz. House show attendances are down, televesion buyrates are the same or lower. So everyone saying that we need this fresh new product and more CM Punk is fresh and John's act has grown stale. News flash NO ONE else thats actually you know spending money on this product thinks so.

Either the people that say things like that are a very vocal minority or they're not spending money on the product. Either way neither of those things will convince the WWE or any other company to change the way they do business. Of course you could say "sure you'll take a dip in house show attendance, ppv buyrates and television ratings now but you MIGHT down the road bring all of those numbers to never before seen heights.". But nobody would actually say something that silly would they.

Anyway I know you genuinely don't understand how a business works (as cited by the last two dozen John Cena posts) but maybe somebody else will read this and say "yeah that makes sense"

[Arrows]

Its your opinion and you can stick to it all you want. I'll even be generous and not say your opinion is wrong but its certainly skewed and backwards reasoning and that illogical reasoning is certainly cause for your strange opinion.

Basically you're say "I know that John Cena does GREAT with charity, he's fantastic on television, he looks the part of a franchise "wrestler", he's fantastic with his entertainment skills and oh by the way he makes us a TON of money in merchandising. But this guy should not be the top guy in an ENTERTAINMENT company. I guess because Michael Bay doesn't spend three hours developing a characters backstory him and the billions of dollars his movies have made don't deserve to be at the top of hollywood either?

This is not Ring of Honor its Sports Entertainment. There was an old adage that Ric Flair could get a *** match out of a broomstick. Which basically meant "no matter who you are even if you're an awful wrestler Ric Flair can get a *** match out of you.". I would say the same holds true for Shawn Michaels and the internet says the same holds true for CM Punk. So if John Cena is so awful why is it he's had better matches with BOTH those guys than more talented guys? Let me ask you a question would you rather see Joe vs. CM Punk in a ninety minute draw? Or the Money in the Bank match? There is no wrong answer but they are completley different types of entertainment and both support the best of two very abstract sub genres of this particular entertainment field.

Still your point is that John Cena is a bad wrestler and because of that he shouldn't be the top guy even though he's the most recognizable full time wrestler they have, he makes more money in merchandise than any one else, he's loved by all the media outlets, he's clean as a whistle (best we know) in a business thats been nearly crucified by drugs and death lately. Not too mention he's a fantastic entertainer and has proven against Shawn Michaels, Triple H, Cm Punk and other guys that when its time to bring it he can and does.



So let me get this straight. Once again (for the millionth time) you're saying "I don't care that John Cena makes more money merchandise wise than everyone else. I don't care that he's more popular than everyone else. They could push FIVE guys in his place and those FIVE guys would be as popular as his ONE guy and ther merch would equal this ONE guy's merch."

Ummmm in what business world do we say "we have this one product that is making us a ton of money. So lets focus in on these other five products we think are better and maybe COMBINED they'll make us much money as this mainstream product.". Hate the iPhone? No problem lets scrap it and create FIVE phones for FIVE times the price and then they can equal this ONE phone's profits. Except for they don't because you're spending FIVE times more to promote, market, pay and maintain that product than you are for this ONE already established product.

I could go on but honestly when you say things like "Merchandise blah blah blah" and "anybody can fit into the role" or "we'll find another". It shows me that you really don't understand business. You don't just find "another" product. You ride that product until the wheels fall off.

People should how John Cena's stale and CM Punk's character is so fresh he's the next Rock or Austin and attitude era this and that. Look at the ppv buyrate number for Money in the Bank. There most interesting, jaw dropping, captivating storyline in years and you know what it sold? The same EXACT amount as Extreme Rules which was John Cena and The Miz. House show attendances are down, televesion buyrates are the same or lower. So everyone saying that we need this fresh new product and more CM Punk is fresh and John's act has grown stale. News flash NO ONE else thats actually you know spending money on this product thinks so.

Either the people that say things like that are a very vocal minority or they're not spending money on the product. Either way neither of those things will convince the WWE or any other company to change the way they do business. Of course you could say "sure you'll take a dip in house show attendance, ppv buyrates and television ratings now but you MIGHT down the road bring all of those numbers to never before seen heights.". But nobody would actually say something that silly would they.

Anyway I know you genuinely don't understand how a business works (as cited by the last two dozen John Cena posts) but maybe somebody else will read this and say "yeah that makes sense"

I get the idea. I get the "He makes the most monies!" The difference between the iPhone and Cena? The iPhone WILL work tomorrow. Odds are, 20 years from now, an iPhone will still function.

John Cena? Will not.

In the wrestling business, you can not put all your eggs in one basket. He could have a career ending injury tomorrow, and they've buried everyone short of CM Punk.

Who's gonna sell t-shirts next? No one else is even close BECAUSE of the Cena god push.

This is where pushing five > pushing one.

If ONE goes down, you still have four guys making you a decent profit. Not no one making you nothing.

[bigtplaystew]

Dude I <3 your Micheal Bay analogy. The man wont and shouldnt ever win a "Best Director" Oscar but MAN does he make a hell of an action movie. Not always, but usually :-)

It's very fitting.

Cena's good. I really can care less what his haters have to say about the situation. He's not the best ring guy in the WWE -not even close- but he's no where near as bad as some people would have you say. The dude is a born main eventer. He delivers and knows how to get a crowd behind him. His popularity is down a bit right now, but even if he goes away after WM28... he'll have been WWE's top guy for what? Five or six years? That is one HELL of a run.

Plus, he's a hell of a nice guy. I guess I should point out that I defend him staunchly because I met the man on a freezing cold night after a show here in Philly. He and Rey Mysterio came out after the show while the rest of the big stars snuck off in their limos and car services.

Not that I blame them, but Cena and Rey came out, spent over an hour talking with fans, taking pictures, signing autographs. Both were class acts and hung out way later than they should have.

[Hive]

I get the idea. I get the "He makes the most monies!" The difference between the iPhone and Cena? The iPhone WILL work tomorrow. Odds are, 20 years from now, an iPhone will still function.

Seriously, are you for real with this outlandish claim? :eek:

[Arrows]

Seriously, are you for real with this outlandish claim? :eek:

How exactly is it outlandish?

I've had the same home phone for close to 16 years. If you take good enough care, and nothing of epic proportion happens to render cell phones useless? Sure, it could happen. Even if one breaks, you can always go buy another to be an instant replacement of the same value.

There's no shopping mall for pro wrestlers that can instantly replace John Cena.

[LoNdOn]

Yeah, that wasn't Sin Cara, that was Hunico under the mask this week on Smackdown.

[djthefunkchris]

How exactly is it outlandish?

I've had the same home phone for close to 16 years. If you take good enough care, and nothing of epic proportion happens to render cell phones useless? Sure, it could happen. Even if one breaks, you can always go buy another to be an instant replacement of the same value.

There's no shopping mall for pro wrestlers that can instantly replace John Cena.

I remember when a certain promotion took ALL of their top guys, and it hurt them. The thing is, they KNOW how to create stars, where other's have failed. It's important to realise it. The Rock, Steve Austin, The Undertaker, Kane, Cena, etc. These are people that WWE made into huge stars... Sure a few of them had been around the block a while, and were famous from other promotions, but they never reached the popularity WWF/E produced for them.

IF Cena was to be hurt and had to retire tomorrow, CM Punk, Miz, Sheamus and other's are right there. They might not sell like Cena, but then again, I don't think you can count on that kind of thing. Where did I read... Wasn't it only Austin that actually sold as much or more merchandise then Cena? So you can't hope to fill those shoe's as if it's a given. Hopefully someone will come along someday that can, but it's not something I would ever count on if I were them.

I don't think they would hurt nearly as bad as your letting on, if Cena was to have to stop. They have other's that can step up, and other's that have been there all along that could potentially step to the plate again, to include HHH.

[Teh_Showtime]

Wait so Cena sucks because he can have a career ending injury?

So who else deserves his spot? Anybody can get injured.

[djthefunkchris]

Wait so Cena sucks because he can have a career ending injury?

So who else deserves his spot? Anybody can get injured.

Arrows has and probably always will boldly say whatever comes accross his mind, and I kind of like that about him... You know where he stands...

With that said, I believe this comment by you is taking his statement out of context. I took what he said bassically totally differently. To me he was just saying that they've invested so much into Cena that they would be left with nothing if something happened to Cena. I don't necessarily agree.

Howerver, this statement, There's no shopping mall for pro wrestlers that can instantly replace John Cena.
I totally agree with, but for different reasons.

[Arrows]

Arrows has and probably always will boldly say whatever comes accross his mind, and I kind of like that about him... You know where he stands...

With that said, I believe this comment by you is taking his statement out of context. I took what he said bassically totally differently. To me he was just saying that they've invested so much into Cena that they would be left with nothing if something happened to Cena. I don't necessarily agree.

Howerver, this statement,
I totally agree with, but for different reasons.

I just wanna know when I said Cena sucks.

I actually like the guy.

[Teh_Showtime]

If you ask me, it looks like they have been grooming Miz to be as big, if not bigger than Cena in the mainstream. The only thing he doesn't have right now is the merch sales.

[djthefunkchris]

I just wanna know when I said Cena sucks.

I actually like the guy.

Your posts and Shawn's are similar, so I can see how someone might confuse them. Fact is, I think we all have alot more in common in what we "think", but it's really easy to get the wrong impressions when reading, instead of hearing. Sarcasm can be lost, senses of humor, and even if someone is actually upset or JUST TYPES IN CAPS to make sure that part isn't missed from their post.

I get in trouble at work for accidentally putting something in capital letters, as if I'm being pushy or bossy or something, when I'm actually just trying to sound urgent. Example of something people missunderstood "We need "x" ASAP, to ensure that the job is done up to specs." Because I capitalized ASAP, I was told I was being mean and bossy. Someone I didn't even mean the email to effect was actually upset because they thought I was yelling at them... and the only reason they even recieved it was only because I wanted them in the loop, it was addressed to a different person all together (who didn't take it that way). Make sense? Bah, someone will get my point.:cool:

[shawn michaels 82]

I get the idea. I get the "He makes the most monies!" The difference between the iPhone and Cena? The iPhone WILL work tomorrow. Odds are, 20 years from now, an iPhone will still function.

John Cena? Will not.

In the wrestling business, you can not put all your eggs in one basket. He could have a career ending injury tomorrow, and they've buried everyone short of CM Punk.

Who's gonna sell t-shirts next? No one else is even close BECAUSE of the Cena god push.

This is where pushing five > pushing one.

If ONE goes down, you still have four guys making you a decent profit. Not no one making you nothing.


YOu got part of what i was saying, and it wasn't that hard. Other people made long posts without bothering to understand what i meant. Yes, i mean Stennick. Dude, i usually respect your opinions, so you should try to at least understant mine.

Wait so Cena sucks because he can have a career ending injury?

So who else deserves his spot? Anybody can get injured.

No one said that. At least i didn't. WHo else deserves his spot? WHy not the Miz, sheamus, JoMo or any other joe that they decide to push?? Cena is not untouchable and i'm sick of listening people say he is. Stone cold retired and live went on. If Cena died today, life would go on, so would the wwe. So don't ask that question as if no one could fill his shoes. THe man ain't that good. The point is that he got where he got because he was carried there by the WWE. Sure ,others would have falied to achieve such success with the same push, but others wouldn't.


On a side note: "There is a difference between stating an OPINION and blindly ignoring facts. When people spew Cena hate, they never notice all of the good he brings and dismisses it as a one off. "

Yeah, and when in the closet Cena lovers (and i'm not mentioning names) talk about cena they tend to dismiss his weaknesses (or forget them) and refuse to accept that he sucks in a lot of areas. And i dont see anyone trying to shut them up. Equality! TO everyone! PEriod!

Cena could be replaced, but that's not even the point. The point is that he will not last forever and other people should be pushed. Cause frankly, i couldn't care less for a product that is all about John Cena. Thank God Punk changed that...at least for now. Cena haters are entitled to hate the man and express it. And the other people are entitled to listen and say nothing (if they so wish) or to answer in a civilized way. I'm a cena hater and i din't came here to insult anyone. And i din't. But i willl keep saying the man sucks, and no law can stop me from doing so. But the fact is, there wouldn't be any (almost any) Cena hater if Super Cena stopped a long time ago or never happened. How can someone defend that?? Oh well, each one with it's own opinion. Fui!

[Teh_Showtime]

I never said he was untouchable but if he is undeserving who would you have in his place?

OF COURSE Cena can be replaced...EVENTUALLY, but it's not as easy as you make it seem.

[Hive]

If you ask me, it looks like they have been grooming Miz to be as big, if not bigger than Cena in the mainstream. The only thing he doesn't have right now is the merch sales.

I agree, and I find it very exciting. The Miz has potential for much wider mainstream appeal than Cena, and his babyface turn is inevitable. I've said it before and I'll say it again: A proper babyface Miz can be what they need to feel safe enough to turn Cena heel somewhere down the line.

Stone cold retired and live went on.

Yes, and life will go on just the same when Cena retires. New stars will take his place just as new stars stepped up when Austin left. Noone has yet to reach Austin's level of merch sale, and it will probably be hard to find someone who can level Cena's as well - but WWE will create new stars and they will survive. But the thing is... they didn't try to replace Austin untill he left, and why should they? Why should they begin to depush him or give him less spotlight in favor of someone else when he was doing the merch sales he was? Same thing with Cena. There's absolutely no reason at all to try to replace him.

I agree with Stennick: In a business, you find something that works... and then you milk it untill its' milk gets sour. WWE trying to outright replace Cena with Punk or Morrison or Sheamus or anyone else would kinda be like Microsoft bying Linux and having it replace Windows. You don't remove your prime moneymaker. And expecting them to do so is silly.

[djthefunkchris]

YOu got part of what i was saying, and it wasn't that hard. Other people made long posts without bothering to understand what i meant. Yes, i mean Stennick. Dude, i usually respect your opinions, so you should try to at least understant mine.
Again, I think sometimes it's a language barrier thing. Your saying someone sucks in ONE area, but is great in almost every other area.... but overall you say he sucks. To most of us, your statements sound kind of silly, backwards almost. As I said, language barrier or something, English is a second language for you, I believe (forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe you said it was before, my memmory might be wrong though).
No one said that. At least i didn't. WHo else deserves his spot? WHy not the Miz, sheamus, JoMo or any other joe that they decide to push?? Cena is not untouchable and i'm sick of listening people say he is. Stone cold retired and live went on. If Cena died today, life would go on, so would the wwe. So don't ask that question as if no one could fill his shoes. THe man ain't that good. The point is that he got where he got because he was carried there by the WWE. Sure ,others would have falied to achieve such success with the same push, but others wouldn't.The Miz is obviously being sold in the mainstream as someone who could possibly do exactly that. Sheamus, I don't know yet. Kind of 50/50 with him. JoMo only has two things out of many going for him... He's flashy and has a good look. Outside of that, not much... No mic skills, his charisma falls a bit flat. I liked him alot more when him and Miz were together. Never thought I would end up liking Miz so much more, but it happened.

On a side note: "There is a difference between stating an OPINION and blindly ignoring facts. When people spew Cena hate, they never notice all of the good he brings and dismisses it as a one off. "

Yeah, and when in the closet Cena lovers (and i'm not mentioning names) talk about cena they tend to dismiss his weaknesses (or forget them) and refuse to accept that he sucks in a lot of areas. And i dont see anyone trying to shut them up. Equality! TO everyone! PEriod!
Cena could be replaced, but that's not even the point. The point is that he will not last forever and other people should be pushed. Cause frankly, i couldn't care less for a product that is all about John Cena. Thank God Punk changed that...at least for now. Cena haters are entitled to hate the man and express it. And the other people are entitled to listen and say nothing (if they so wish) or to answer in a civilized way. I'm a cena hater and i din't came here to insult anyone. And i din't. But i willl keep saying the man sucks, and no law can stop me from doing so. But the fact is, there wouldn't be any (almost any) Cena hater if Super Cena stopped a long time ago or never happened. How can someone defend that?? Oh well, each one with it's own opinion. Fui! "Closet Cena Fans"? Why would anyone be a closet Cena fan? I can't think of anything that would make someone want to "act" as if they don't like him, if they did. I'm not much into his character, but I have no problem saying I like the guy as a person (from what I've seen/heard/watched, etc.). Nothing there to dislike really..> As a wrestler, I'm more of an underdog fan... So I root for CM Punk, not Cena... Pluss, I'm sick of the character.

As I was saying earlier though, the problem with your posts is that they totally ignore facts, and try to insert personal "feelings" as if they are facts instead. I want to try and think of something as an example, but all I keep thinking of is 1 pluss 1 equals 2. Then someone comes along and says... That's the old way, 1 pluss 1 is 3, bottum line. I'm going to believe this no matter what anyone else says because it's the way I see it. 1 pluss 1 will never be 2, because I say it's 3, and if you don't like it, tough, because I should get an equal opportunity to answer the question, and discuss my feelings on it as well.

Bassically the debate goes like this:

John Cena sucks, because I don't like the way he wrestle's.

Other's: He might not be the best in the ring, but his merchandise sells are unbelievably good. The PPV sells are better when he's there. The show ratings are better when he's on the show. He's good on the mic, does great entertaining segments. He excells in every other aspect in a product that labled themselves as "Sports Entertainment".

Your response: So, he still sucks in the ring, and therefore it doesn't matter to me. They need to put someone else in his spot.


Then there is the incredible belief that "Anyone" could step in the same shoe's and do just as good in all those other area's, although there's only been a very small handfull historically that ever has. Doesn't matter to you, because you believe someone else is more deserving, and so everything else doesn't matter.

IF this is exactly what you mean, then really there's no reason for anyone to take you seriously. IF this isn't what your actually trying to say, hopefully my post will allow you to see what other's are seeing.

[Hive]

JoMo only has two things out of many going for him... He's flashy and has a good look. Outside of that, not much... No mic skills, his charisma falls a bit flat. I liked him alot more when him and Miz were together. Never thought I would end up liking Miz so much more, but it happened.

Morrison is too unreliable to ever become a WWE company man like Cena, The Miz or possibly Sheamus. They can't count on him, and his affiliation with Melina definately isn't helping that issue one bit. I don't see WWE investing the required time and effort in trying to mold him.

Too bad, as I really like him as an in-ring performer. He's very exciting to watch.

[djthefunkchris]

Morrison is too unreliable to ever become a WWE company man like Cena, The Miz or possibly Sheamus. They can't count on him, and his affiliation with Melina definately isn't helping that issue one bit. I don't see WWE investing the required time and effort in trying to mold him.

Too bad, as I really like him as an in-ring performer. He's very exciting to watch.

/nod. I didn't like him to start with, but he's really grown on me over the last few years. I'm not going to say that he won't ever grow out of the flaws, because if you would have asked me around the time MNM were a tag team, I wouldn't have thought he could go beyond what I thought of him back then... which was bassically someone that looks like a wanna-be, and not someone that actually would put forth the effort to get where he is today, which is like one step away from the main event. He's changed my opinion on that, so I suppose it's possible one day for me to look at him as a Main Eventer... because I don't look at him as a teenage wanna-be anymore.

[djthefunkchris]

Cena hid Punk's flaws? That's a good one. I'll have to remember that if I ever need a good laugh.

They both blew spots but they were going so long, and I think it showed that they're best matches from a quality standpoint are probably ones kept to around twenty minutes; less time to do more moves means less botches.

I think you missed my point here. One of the best traits (at least to me), is the ability to help the person your having a match with. Blowing spots, and pulling it off as if it was "meant" helps the match tremendously. I don't know if you changed part of this or not, I meant to comment on it a while back, but got caught up in other posts.

What I was trying to point out, is that I doubt there is ever an intention on Cena's part to have his opponant ever look bad. That was another discussion from a while back, a poster said something about Cena making other's look bad. Punk's match isn't the first one that he tried to hide other people's flaws, nor is it the first match someone tried to help him hide a flaw (remember Kennedy tapping out quickly when he saw Cena was really hurt?).

Unrelated to my quote:
Every single person that has talked about Cena, on a personal level, has said something similar to this video (Punk). Everytime I turn around I here someone in here point out something either personally or something else that shows that Cena is a Class Act. If he doesn't deserve it, I find it hard pressed to think of anyone before or after him that would.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyznWgzJOWY

[Hive]

What I was trying to point out, is that I doubt there is ever an intention on Cena's part to have his opponant ever look bad. That was another discussion from a while back, a poster said something about Cena making other's look bad.

I don't think anyone ever claimed that Cena makes people look bad on purpose: it's the booking of him and his at times inability to sell properly that does the trick.

Unrelated to my quote:
Every single person that has talked about Cena, on a personal level, has said something similar to this video (Punk). Everytime I turn around I here someone in here point out something either personally or something else that shows that Cena is a Class Act. If he doesn't deserve it, I find it hard pressed to think of anyone before or after him that would.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OyznWgzJOWY

I don't see many people arguing against Cena being a really nice guy, probably one of the nicest in the business.

I myself have nothing against Cena as a person (in fact, I would probably like him as a person if I ever met him), and I completely understand his value to the company. I just strongly dislike his character and his booking and I find most of his in-ring work to be dull and repetitive.

[djthefunkchris]

I don't think anyone ever claimed that Cena makes people look bad on purpose: it's the booking of him and his at times inability to sell properly that does the trick.



I don't see many people arguing against Cena being a really nice guy, probably one of the nicest in the business.

I myself have nothing against Cena as a person (in fact, I would probably like him as a person if I ever met him), and I completely understand his value to the company. I just strongly dislike his character and his booking and I find most of his in-ring work to be dull and repetitive.

Maybe I missunderstood the post.

Fact is, we all find his in-ring work to be dull and repetitive (with the exceptions pointed out). I found it the same with quite a few other's that have been in his shoe's in the past as well. Maybe it's the company trying to protect thier investment, I don't know, but I surely do agree with that.

That's not all what has been said though. It's been said he doesn't deserve to be where he is.

[Teh_Showtime]

Christian is really reminding me of Jericho post Slamboree after he lost the title and found the NWA rulebook in Washington DC.

[Jaysin]

The only person I've heard say anything negative about Cena's personality is Michael Tarver.

[Teh_Showtime]

I've heard that story too. Sounds pretty brutal of Cena but that was the only person Tarver talked ill about

[Zeel1]

Well, here's the new Sin Cara... already noticing little differences. Don't recall Sin Cara doing all that nodding, or really posing as much...

Wonder how he feels about this. It must be weird going under someone else's mask and using someone else's name. On the other hand, he's basically coming right in as one of the top faces on SD!.




...Although... I wonder if they might work this into a story. They're noting a weight difference and such - I feel like if they legitimately wanted to replace him, they'd instruct the commentators not to point out ANY changes.

[Teh_Showtime]

He is MUCH slower and a little stiffer to me. And that is without the visual differences. It just looks like he was a little slow in there compared to the real.

[Zeel1]

Now that I've started thinking of it, I'm really thinking they could push this as an angle. It'd be an easy enough story to do, I think. Find a way to expose Hunico as not being the same guy, have the explanation that Sin Cara is one of the top faces on SmackDown!, and when he got injured, Hunico saw it as the perfect way to springboard himself directly into a big spot on the main roster, so he donned Sin Cara's mask and tried to replace him. Could be a solid enough premise for a feud.

Probably not going to happen, though...

[Wrestling Century]

I will disagree with you guys on Cena. He actually does have great in ring skills, which he has been showing lately. In 2003-2004 I would've actually called his in-ring skills on par with The Undertaker's. The problem is how he is booked IMO. Most of his matches involve him being destroyed by the heel and then coming back, ala Hogan. I blame creative for that. True, Cena's in-ring skills have some rust since he has stated showing them again, but IMO when he wants to (or when creative does anyways), he can be a good wrestler. Truth be told, I don't truly know if it is creative or Cena just phoning it in, but from what I've heard of Cena's (real life) personality, phoning it in each week doesn't sound like him.

[Teh_Showtime]

Actually I read on B/R that it is speculated and that very angle could be happening according to WrestleZone

[Zeel1]

Actually I read on B/R that it is speculated and that very angle could be happening according to WrestleZone

I think I'd actually prefer to go that way, then. I know people don't generally like imposter angles and whatnot, but I feel it could work in this setting, and I certainly like that route more than putting a different guy under the mask and trying to say it's the exact same wrestler. I'm all for suspending disbelief, but that's asking a bit much... :p

[Zeel1]

"I don't have to sleep with the guy and hear him snore, but maybe you do..."

...Tell me he didn't just say that... :p

[Teh_Showtime]

Except they will need subtitles to translate the pointing at each other from the Sin Cara's

[Zeel1]

Except they will need subtitles to translate the pointing at each other from the Sin Cara's

They could do like how HHH/Taker did earlier in the year and have one of those silent promos that somehow tells everyone everything they need to know...

[Teh_Showtime]

No, it will be the biggest WTF moment in history if that happens. I think Hunico knows english at least.

[Zeel1]

Hm. Sounds like Xian's set up to get some help for himself at SS...

For what it's worth, I've heard Edge will be there for SummerSlam Axxess or however that's spelled, but isn't supposed to actually appear on the show...

[Teh_Showtime]

Hopefully Brodus Clay. I really mark for that guy. Maybe Henry or Miz possibly

[Zeel1]

Hopefully Brodus Clay. I really mark for that guy. Maybe Henry or Miz possibly

Hm, it may very well be Miz, now that you mention it. He DID say that he'd be making an impact at SSlam. This would certainly be the perfect opportunity to do just that. What would that lead to, though? Would Miz move to SmackDown?

[Teh_Showtime]

Only if he feuds with Orton.

[Stennick]

As I was saying earlier though, the problem with your posts is that they totally ignore facts, and try to insert personal "feelings" as if they are facts instead. I want to try and think of something as an example, but all I keep thinking of is 1 pluss 1 equals 2. Then someone comes along and says... That's the old way, 1 pluss 1 is 3, bottum line. I'm going to believe this no matter what anyone else says because it's the way I see it. 1 pluss 1 will never be 2, because I say it's 3, and if you don't like it, tough, because I should get an equal opportunity to answer the question, and discuss my feelings on it as well.

Bassically the debate goes like this:

John Cena sucks, because I don't like the way he wrestle's.

Other's: He might not be the best in the ring, but his merchandise sells are unbelievably good. The PPV sells are better when he's there. The show ratings are better when he's on the show. He's good on the mic, does great entertaining segments. He excells in every other aspect in a product that labled themselves as "Sports Entertainment".

Your response: So, he still sucks in the ring, and therefore it doesn't matter to me. They need to put someone else in his spot.


Then there is the incredible belief that "Anyone" could step in the same shoe's and do just as good in all those other area's, although there's only been a very small handfull historically that ever has. Doesn't matter to you, because you believe someone else is more deserving, and so everything else doesn't matter.

IF this is exactly what you mean, then really there's no reason for anyone to take you seriously. IF this isn't what your actually trying to say, hopefully my post will allow you to see what other's are seeing.

DJ this is exactly what I was getting at earlier. It can't be put any better than that. "The guy excels in nearly every area, he's entered an area of success in this business that only a half dozen men have ever experienced but because he doesn't wrestle how I want him to I say he sucks".

SM82 can say Cena sucks all he wants and he's right nobody can stop him. He's got every right to say it and every right to sound as foolish as he does in saying it.

[VTial]

DJ this is exactly what I was getting at earlier. It can't be put any better than that. "The guy excels in nearly every area, he's entered an area of success in this business that only a half dozen men have ever experienced but because he doesn't wrestle how I want him to I say he sucks".

SM82 can say Cena sucks all he wants and he's right nobody can stop him. He's got every right to say it and every right to sound as foolish as he does in saying it.

Or it could be... "WWE dominates wrestling in nearly ever area, they have entered an area of exposure in their business that only a half dozen other pro wrestling promotions could compete against but everyone clearly has seen a decline in their product and they end up scapegoating certain wrestlers like Cena because it's easier to pretend you are analyzing things rather than just creating a short straight forward thread where you can rally a bunch of your fellow vocal users on why you think something is bad."

If we were to be objective, everyone is using their own personal feelings one way or another. Objectively, Cena both sucks and yet he is not as bad.

The STFU sucks but the FU doesn't.

The match with x sucks but the match with y isn't in light of y's match with z.

Yet we generalize because it's much easier to write and get replies one way or another. We don't really use facts. We don't even try to attempt inserting facts. Everytime something factual gets inserted, we get back to the meta and stop talking about the factuals. This has been the mark of smarks for so long. It's why things went from smarks being a good thing and ended up being stereotyped as vocal internet fans who have hard-ons for certain cult level wrestlers.

[Hive]

Fact is, we all find his in-ring work to be dull and repetitive (with the exceptions pointed out). I found it the same with quite a few other's that have been in his shoe's in the past as well. Maybe it's the company trying to protect thier investment, I don't know, but I surely do agree with that.

Yeah The Rock really wasn't much more interesting in the ring imo... maybe the WWE are telling such top guys to take it easy to avoid injuries, maybe they just get lazy at the top, or maybe they just really can't do any better... but I'm inclined to believe that the company is telling them to take it easy, because looking back at Hogan it was kind of the same thing: he was clearly much better i the ring in Japan than in the US, and it kinda looked as if he was holding back in WWF and WCW. But then of course, the lazy explanation works here as well...

[Fantabulous]

I agree with Stennick: In a business, you find something that works... and then you milk it untill its' milk gets sour. WWE trying to outright replace Cena with Punk or Morrison or Sheamus or anyone else would kinda be like Microsoft bying Linux and having it replace Windows. You don't remove your prime moneymaker. And expecting them to do so is silly.
The problem is WWE, and virtually every wrestling company ever, don't start trying to make the new headline act until the old one has run its course. Then you get the inevitable slump because there is no headline-calibre act around to carry things, which in turn makes it harder to make a new headline act because business is down and its always harder to make new stars when business is down. Almost nobody has the foresight to recognize when their hot star is starting to cool down because they're so into him being hot that it's the safe thing to keep them on top and they don't feel the need to risk replacing him until its too late, at least as far as keeping business hot.

[Hive]

We don't really use facts. We don't even try to attempt inserting facts. Everytime something factual gets inserted, we get back to the meta and stop talking about the factuals. This has been the mark of smarks for so long. It's why things went from smarks being a good thing and ended up being stereotyped as vocal internet fans who have hard-ons for certain cult level wrestlers.

Uhm... but it's wrestling. It's supposed to be subjective. If we were only to discuss "facts", what would there be to discuss at all? The color of their trunks? Their birthdays? The brand of their cars? Talking about "facts" in something as clearly subjective in nature as wrestling is pretty silly. Their victories/losses and pushes does is not determined by their athletic ability (at least it really is), so whether or not someone is "good" is nearly 100 % subjective. What we see on screen is not a result of wrestlers being objectively "good" or "bad", but is a result of booking - which is furthermore often determined by things that happens backstage. So I repeat: of course these discussions are subjective, they should not be any other way and they can not be any other way.

[Hive]

The problem is WWE, and virtually every wrestling company ever, don't start trying to make the new headline act until the old one has run its course. Then you get the inevitable slump because there is no headline-calibre act around to carry things, which in turn makes it harder to make a new headline act because business is down and its always harder to make new stars when business is down. Almost nobody has the foresight to recognize when their hot star is starting to cool down because they're so into him being hot that it's the safe thing to keep them on top and they don't feel the need to risk replacing him until its too late, at least as far as keeping business hot.

That is probably somewhat true. Didn't Vince try to phase out Hogan and replace him with guys like Bret Hart, though? With Hogan fighting it and insisting on the silly Yokozuna thing, reportedly, because he wouldn't let Hart go over him?

[Fantabulous]

Their birthdays?

Happy Birthday to Jim Brunzell and Matt Hyson!!!

It's also four years since Brian Adams died and one-year since Lance Cade died.

[Fantabulous]

Didn't Vince try to phase out Hogan and replace him with guys like Bret Hart, though? With Hogan fighting it and insisting on the silly Yokozuna thing, reportedly, because he wouldn't let Hart go over him?

Yes, Hogan refused to put Bret over and would only put Yokozuna over instead.

[VTial]

I'm not saying my version is correct and I wanted to bring this up during dj's initial post but it just became too lengthy.

The fact is every brand has a curve. Once they get past the curve, they don't lose much from bringing in inferior products. Instead, they could even benefit from it.

Take this recent Cena vs. Punk feud. No perceived watered down WWE, no great feud.

Similar with HHH. No HHH reputation of bringing down wrestlers with one pedigree, less excitement generated during the HHH vs. Taker WM match.

The truth is, and this is why some can be sensitive about monopolies, is that once you get past the curve it is not only more beneficial to deliver an inferior product - it is also a way of survival and guaranteeing your place.

Take the Monday Night Wars where WCW got over from stealing Razor Ramon, Diesel and of course Hulk Hogan. Let's add Luger to that.

Why did it hurt the WWE so much? Because those were quality wrestlers. Now imagine someone like Cena bailing out to another promotion. He doesn't have that leverage. The guys with leverage are guys like Punk, Daniels and that's pretty much it.

The WWE even proved this with Kurt Angle. In the past this would have hurt them but now they have mastered the way of making an inferior wrestler sell more merchandise without hurting their brand.

Part of this process is that it brainwashes people. In the past, Hogan may have been a safety measure but it was also about accentuating the characters. Less is more therefore the 5 moves of doom in the hand of a well perceived quality wrestler is not seen as bad. It allows main eventers to do less moves but them being treated as greater moves.

Nowadays, since WWE has gotten past that curve, the quality can be dropped. Instead, if you get audiences used to things like the horrible STFU that even looks horrible even if kayfabe existed, the audience gets addicted to so much of this crap that even the hardcore has a lowered perception of crap and therefore can not only be more likely to be more forgiving of bad things...they could easily praise something that isn't as special.

Take the Punk vs. Cena match. Cena is praised almost entirely because he stopped being bad. It's not because he was good but he stopped being bad. When you know you can rephrame even the hardcore audiences' minds, you can trick them into supporting your product once you do such minor things as push CM Punk from time to time.

The safety mindset is only a facade. WWE knows they can reduce more injuries if they lessened their hectic schedules. They also know that painkiller addiction is more of a threat than any wrestling move. Yet like boxing they know they could fool the masses into thinking that something that's actually happening in the screen is more relevant than something that is factual.

Boxing does this to MMA via tricking people into giving the perception that the bigger gloves and constant punching don't lead to more deaths than something like a no holds barred eye poke or an elbow that turns things bloody. WWE knows that by combining every smokes and mirrors way of removing the threat from the screen, they can even live through making the audience forget about Owen Hart's and Chris Benoit's death in such a manner that you remember them but you don't hold it enough against the WWE to boycott them.

To connect this with dj's reply to me, it's not that nowadays wrestlers have higher expectations. It's that in the past, main eventers always have lowered expectations but the product has always tried to rise above expectations. Nowadays the product doesn't try to do that but trains people, even the haters, to have lowered expectations and then yanks them up a bit to retain/increase popularity and then slowly yanks them down.

It's not just a simple case of milking a product. It's a case of creating a delusional userbase that in time becomes like a large cult that has some pretense of holding the same values as many people in a group but has a totally skewered logic. Logic where an STFU is not objectively reviewed as "a move" that in the past wouldn't fly at all and turning this into meta concepts like Cena is decent, Cena sucks, Cena is not so bad.

It's even dripping into things that didn't confuse people before. This Punk-Cena feud has gotten some people to say that the WWE finally got it. Think who takes the most credit within the company for that? HHH himself has done this to his character. You could say he did the same exact thing he did as a heel and did it as a face, but he literally got over as a face because he was entertaining - and that erased every animosity he had prior to that. (This isn't talking about the 1 or 2 people that supported HHH before, this is talking about the large vocal group of haters that disappeared)

The unfortunate part is that this gets muddled with improved times. People who say the Rock or Hogan are just as bad, ignore that the moves that the Rock and Hogan did at that time was always great. Not in terms of spot quality but in terms of entertainment delivery. It's like comparing the crappiest mainstream cartoon nowadays with some great cartoons that didn't age well and saying those great cartoons weren't as great in hindsight. It's just wrong and the WWE knows how to produce wrong and they have the leverage to do that just like any mainstream political party. They have gotten to the point that they know something beyond controversy selling. They know how to redefine controversy. They know how to produce so into the product that they don't even realize that the more they hate, the more they watch even though kayfabe has gone away.

That's the real issue behind any Cena comments. People want symbols. Smarks want symbols. Everyone in the internet loves talking points. Even when a conversation rises above that, you will always have people who will make the claim that maybe WWE is doing it for safety, maybe we have too high of an expectations, maybe Cena is just Hulk Hogan, all are lies. All are wrong. Again, I'm not saying I'm correct. I'm saying when you have a version written from the perspective of apologist, when you even go down that path...you are already believing in something wrong. It is the same mindset of rationalizing that maybe a criminal politician who sends thousands and thousands of your countrymen to their deaths while they sit in their building may not be as bad because they donated to charity or they know how to kiss a baby or they believe in God. The only difference here is the level of seriousness with regards to the topic but this is why such qualities have often persevered and grew several mythologies that aren't factually based but sound like they do.

[Hive]

I'm not saying my version is correct and I wanted to bring this up during dj's initial post but it just became too lengthy.

Attack of the wall of text! :eek:

No offense, man... but half of your posts are lengthy essays. You need to learn to epxress yourself in fewer words. :p

[VTial]

Uhm... but it's wrestling. It's supposed to be subjective. If we were only to discuss "facts", what would there be to discuss at all? The color of their trunks? Their birthdays? The brand of their cars? Talking about "facts" in something as clearly subjective in nature as wrestling is pretty silly. Their victories/losses and pushes does is not determined by their athletic ability (at least it really is), so whether or not someone is "good" is nearly 100 % subjective. What we see on screen is not a result of wrestlers being objectively "good" or "bad", but is a result of booking - which is furthermore often determined by things that happens backstage. So I repeat: of course these discussions are subjective, they should not be any other way and they can not be any other way.

Well that's why my earlier post went to that route. This was a reply where someone said:

As I was saying earlier though, the problem with your posts is that they totally ignore facts, and try to insert personal "feelings" as if they are facts instead.

...and I just replied to put things into perspective.

[VTial]

Attack of the wall of text! :eek:

No offense, man... but half of your posts are lengthy essays. You need to learn to epxress yourself in fewer words. :p

Well, I think that's part of the problem. I don't have a sense of righteousness but I think the lesser I say things the more I become someone who parrots the same talking points.

Sometimes I may agree with someone but it doesn't mean we hold the same specific views. If I just wrote it short then it's just a repeat.

It's the same even if someone doesn't have the same point as I do.I say to them something and if they misunderstand, they still bring up something that I could have easily include to not have them bring them up at all. In this case, I just don't want my post to be lumped with simply that of a Cena hater or a Cena defender. I want to address the specific point the person I was quoting said. The post is actually shortened. Believe it or not, my original post was so lengthy even I said no one would literally read this, not even me.

Edit: Oh and my post was originally replying to someone else.

[lazorbeak]

Uhm... but it's wrestling. It's supposed to be subjective. If we were only to discuss "facts", what would there be to discuss at all? The color of their trunks? Their birthdays? The brand of their cars? Talking about "facts" in something as clearly subjective in nature as wrestling is pretty silly. Their victories/losses and pushes does is not determined by their athletic ability (at least it really is), so whether or not someone is "good" is nearly 100 % subjective. What we see on screen is not a result of wrestlers being objectively "good" or "bad", but is a result of booking - which is furthermore often determined by things that happens backstage. So I repeat: of course these discussions are subjective, they should not be any other way and they can not be any other way.

Except that when you're trying to prove any point, opinions alone don't convince anyone of anything. It may be easy and satisfying to say "Cena sucks!" but all it does is identify a person as that certain type of smark that is in the life-stage where booing the face is the bee's knees. Especially when people come back with a multitude of objective material as to why Cena is where he is and somebody else isn't, it makes a person look ridiculous to tow the line of "well, all that may be true, but *I* still think he sucks." It just shows a lack of understanding of hey, this is a business, and it doesn't cater to a minority of fans that have no clue how the business works.

As has been pointing out numerous times, most people's problems with John Cena, wrestler, are really problems with WWE, booking team. The sooner a smart mark discovers this, the sooner they are able to evolve out of that life-stage of "yay heel boo face" and finally throw away their NWO t-shirt.

[djthefunkchris]

...and I just replied to put things into perspective.

That didn't answer anything, to be honest. I liked your post, and I can agree with some of it. However, I was talking about SM, and how he was coming off. This is something he's done before, and I don't think he means it the way it comes off, so I wanted to point it out.

I do think you have something in your post. Here's what I think your saying in less words. The quality is set lower so that when it's needed, the quality can be raised much higher. This will ensure the perceived importance they wish to demonstrate. For example, the weekly shows will not be as good as the PPV's, and certain PPV's they will try to make better then other PPV's.

Something unrelated though... In this whole feud of Punk and Cena, they seem to be going off the cuff quite a bit. So much I'm almost positive HHH couldn't hold back his smile when Punk said "Same as your's, went straight to DVD" because it was funny. I don't know how good of an idea this is though, as some personal thoughts on perceived greats are being let out the bag as well... Such as the Hogan stuff. Punk comparing Cena to Hogan, and then Cena actually being offended by it. The general perceived public opinion of Hulk Hogan is NOT bad. For us sure, and the rest of the internest smart mark/smarks whatever you want to call us. However, that's not really the general view of him. The general view of him is as a living legend of the bussiness, and therefore comments like that could turn people away. Especially when the guy that's supposed to be a "good" guy is offended by being compared to him.

Just something I was thinking about when watching the crowd reactions during those times.

[Linsolv]

Opinions don't convince anyone of anything.

Logic and reasoning do.

We're not privy to most of business. Last I checked they don't release complete information on their merchandise sales, or ticket sales. They might make vague claims like "over 9000" but nothing in-depth or specific, so no detailed analysis can be made.

Some people want to say that Cena's the best because he's the best seller. There's a cause-and-effect fallacy there. He might be the actual, objectively best top guy out there, but we don't know that. You COULD BE RIGHT but there's no way to know. Not really, not without trying it in an experimental scenario, which is just a pipe dream at best.

What Arrows is saying is that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket--there should be some way to push two guys who are BOTH, in theory, on Cena's level, right? That seems, to me, to be what the Cena vs. Orton thing that dragged on for half a year was about. Trying to create someone who was like Cena's kyrptonite. However, it didn't work.

I'd suggest that the reasons it didn't work were many, but the biggest was that Orton was having matches against Cena regularly. With Vince's booking style, heels win dirty (because they're just worse than the faces) and faces win clean (because they're just better than the heels). Now, I imagine that you could probably have created a much bigger effect if you'd let Orton go on winning, sometimes clean even, over smaller names than Cena for a while. Basically, in the most literal sense, creating a Super Orton to combat Super Cena. You might even be able to do this a third time, someone who is either a face or heel who basically just doesn't lose. The only rule is that you never have your unlosing superheroes face each other, because THEN ONE OF THEM LOSES.

Of course, it could be that Orton can't fill those shoes. Not everyone can, that's obvious. Not only from a business standpoint, some people just don't get over with the crowd like Cena really has. So to say "well Orton couldn't!" Fine. The Miz and Sheamus are apparently now considered pretty good company men. It's not an exact science, especially when you're not privy to the only hard facts that are out there.

[Hive]

Punk comparing Cena to Hogan, and then Cena actually being offended by it. The general perceived public opinion of Hulk Hogan is NOT bad. For us sure, and the rest of the internest smart mark/smarks whatever you want to call us. However, that's not really the general view of him. The general view of him is as a living legend of the bussiness, and therefore comments like that could turn people away. Especially when the guy that's supposed to be a "good" guy is offended by being compared to him.

I think this is a result of Cena seeing so many people booing him and cheering Punk instead because Punk is being "cool" due to him saying stuff that appeals to the IC. So Cena's trying to introduce some of the same here and there. But I think it's a mistake for his character as it is.

[VTial]

To be honest, there's really no way to answer it in such a way that it feels like an answer.

For one, there isn't a question to answer really. It's an impression and what I was trying to show was that your comment applies to all of us (most of us to those who are sensitive). You may feel the poster you were referring to was coming off ...umm... let's say more juvenile but as Hive said it's all subjective. Not that saying it's all subjective explains it either.

Anyway the moment has gone but without countering back with a lengthy post, you can't just shorten it to things like weekly shows and certain PPVs being bigger. It may sound the same when you summarize it but that's why sometimes length is necessary.

There's a model that any wrestling promotion can adopt as long as they have a TV show and a PPV model. TNA for example can do what you are describing. What I'm describing is something that TNA can't do. WCW can't do. Maybe even WWF can't do despite coming close. Only the post-Attitude era WWE can do.

As far as Hogan, his heel turn in WCW did not disappear. As is said, kayfabe is mostly dead. Maybe there are a few kids who did some research and are scratching their head on that comment but almost everybody would know Hogan's rep by now or they will simply treat it as Cena being facetious. The comment 5 moves of doom is a much bigger controversy but really it's not that huge of a deal. It's like when someone drones on and on about political specifics, most viewers let those words fly over and try to let Bill O'Reilly or Jon Stewart spell out the nitty gritty to them.

Also young fans should be exposed enough to Old Hogan where the same invincible gimmick was there but Hogan was obviously too old to sell it. They've also seen Cena vs. Punk where the 5 knuckle shuffle didn't happen immediately. That whole comment about Hogan won't really impact most viewers' reaction to the feud. (Unless Cena or Punk expands further on that comment. It's the same BS with mentioning Cabana, Koslov, etc. People will boo that but there won't be an increase name value demand for those guys)

[djthefunkchris]

Opinions don't convince anyone of anything.

Logic and reasoning do.

We're not privy to most of business. Last I checked they don't release complete information on their merchandise sales, or ticket sales. They might make vague claims like "over 9000" but nothing in-depth or specific, so no detailed analysis can be made.

Some people want to say that Cena's the best because he's the best seller. There's a cause-and-effect fallacy there. He might be the actual, objectively best top guy out there, but we don't know that. You COULD BE RIGHT but there's no way to know. Not really, not without trying it in an experimental scenario, which is just a pipe dream at best.

What Arrows is saying is that you shouldn't put all your eggs in one basket--there should be some way to push two guys who are BOTH, in theory, on Cena's level, right? That seems, to me, to be what the Cena vs. Orton thing that dragged on for half a year was about. Trying to create someone who was like Cena's kyrptonite. However, it didn't work.

I'd suggest that the reasons it didn't work were many, but the biggest was that Orton was having matches against Cena regularly. With Vince's booking style, heels win dirty (because they're just worse than the faces) and faces win clean (because they're just better than the heels). Now, I imagine that you could probably have created a much bigger effect if you'd let Orton go on winning, sometimes clean even, over smaller names than Cena for a while. Basically, in the most literal sense, creating a Super Orton to combat Super Cena. You might even be able to do this a third time, someone who is either a face or heel who basically just doesn't lose. The only rule is that you never have your unlosing superheroes face each other, because THEN ONE OF THEM LOSES.

Of course, it could be that Orton can't fill those shoes. Not everyone can, that's obvious. Not only from a business standpoint, some people just don't get over with the crowd like Cena really has. So to say "well Orton couldn't!" Fine. The Miz and Sheamus are apparently now considered pretty good company men. It's not an exact science, especially when you're not privy to the only hard facts that are out there.

The only problem I have with Arrows points, is that it's obvious (at least to me), that what you just said they should do, they are trying to do. Miz and Sheamus seem to be getting groomed for it.... and this Henry thing seems to be the thing they are going to get Sheamus over with. Henry done hurt every other "Monster" type outside of Khali, that they could put him over. Now he is the "legitimate" toughest monster. Sheamus is going up against him at Summer Slam, and win or lose, if he does better then the other's against him, he's going to get over (Just my prediction because he does have the charasma for this).

Arrows comes straight from the chest, but misses his own points I think. Remember the point about having five people do what one does? They already have that. It's there, and if Cena was to leave it would be about as bad as it was when Kurt Angle left (a point someone else made).

All their eggs seem to be in John Cena, but this bussiness is hardly living off of John Cena alone. In other words, all their eggs are not on John Cena, and John Cena is just their best flavor right now.

It's the posts that bassically say: "I don't like Chocolate Ice Cream, so they shouldn't sell so much of it, because I'm sick of seeing it on the shelf! Why can't they have more Rocky Road? I love Rocky Road, it's the best Ice Cream in the world" Don't look at it, it's the ONLY thing you can do. You'll find if you don't look at it, it doesn't bother you half as much.

You have to think a little more bussiness to "get it". IF your a franchise/brand/or whatever.... Let's say your company is Frito Lay. Right now the best seller you have is BBQ potato chips. You have Cheetos and Fritos and Cracker Jack and various other products, but the one you sell the most of is BBQ Potato Chips. SO guess what your going to do? Your going to ensure that your BBQ Potato Chips has the most shelf space you can get at the stores. You will do this to the point that if you only have "X" amount of shelf space, not as much as you'd like, in the store, you would rather fill it with all BBQ Chips, then to share it with another product you sell... because you know this is going to make you the most money. Sure you would like to sell your Munchos and everything else you have in that store, but the store is only allowing you four rows for your product... So you fill it with the one that is a for sure sell. IF BBQ Potato Chips all the sudden decided to leave, possibly to another company, you can't do anything about that... However, now your going to put Cheetos in it's place, because that's now the top seller you have. Your going to go on, because you have 33 other line items you can sell to the public, no need to dwell on the Potato Chip loss.

When you compare this with what it was in the past... You can use a different analogy. Let's say you have only Lays Potato Chips... Then yeah, getting rid of the BBQ will definately hurt you. That was back when you were only a regional company though, but you've grown to global status, and have merged into your product lines various other regional promotions, so your not going to be hurt over ONE thing leaving.

Now if everyone left at the same time, that would be a different story.

[VTial]

No, even if everyone left the same time, WWE has gotten past the curve where they need to have superstar talent.

Remember Miz is mostly green. Cena is mostly green.

WWE could go full soap (opera) or full divas division if they need to and they can turn in a profit. This is not to say they are perfect but there are Potato Chips and then there's Starbucks and Mcdonald's. WWE is the latter two. They know how to do the same crap and they have reframed their audience's minds to look forward to that standard.

[Arrows]

The only problem I have with Arrows points, is that it's obvious (at least to me), that what you just said they should do, they are trying to do. Miz and Sheamus seem to be getting groomed for it.... and this Henry thing seems to be the thing they are going to get Sheamus over with. Henry done hurt every other "Monster" type outside of Khali, that they could put him over. Now he is the "legitimate" toughest monster. Sheamus is going up against him at Summer Slam, and win or lose, if he does better then the other's against him, he's going to get over (Just my prediction because he does have the charasma for this).

Arrows comes straight from the chest, but misses his own points I think. Remember the point about having five people do what one does? They already have that. It's there, and if Cena was to leave it would be about as bad as it was when Kurt Angle left (a point someone else made).

But these people's shirts would sell, quite a bit better, if not for every one of them endlessly jobbing to Cena. Every time WWE proves these guys aren't worth squat by having Cena destroy them in six moves, they crap on their merch sales in the process. Surely there's a better way to go about this.

[Teh_Showtime]

proven by the Nexus shirts right? Sales were high regardless of if they were jobbing or dominating Cena. Don't know exact numbers but I think they were selling out fast at lots of live events.

[djthefunkchris]

No, even if everyone left the same time, WWE has gotten past the curve where they need to have superstar talent.

Remember Miz is mostly green. Cena is mostly green.

WWE could go full soap (opera) or full divas division if they need to and they can turn in a profit. This is not to say they are perfect but there are Potato Chips and then there's Starbucks and Mcdonald's. WWE is the latter two. They know how to do the same crap and they have reframed their audience's minds to look forward to that standard.

See, this is the only thing I totally dissagree with you about. That is entirely your opinion, and of course your welcome to it, but your putting it out as fact... as if they have had a group of people in the office going "We need to downgrade our talent and brainwash our customers!" Note: I do realise your probably including the fact that they have their hands in alot more then just wrestling, and so they wouldn't fall apart if even all of their wrestling shows were cancelled.

No... I totally dissagree with that. My opinion is that they have done studies, and realised a long time before anyone else, that storylines are what keeps people's interest, and the better the storyline the more interest that will follow. They've been doing this "reality" based thing since Vince took over, and although I hated it at first (Get on with the dang show already, I want to see some wrestling!), I can't deny now that I know so much more about the bussiness, I don't think I would be into it at all if it was "Purely" about wrestling... fact is, I know I wouldn't be. As a kid I would have been, as an adult, no way... because everyone has known wrestling was pre-determined since the 1920's (anyone with common scense).

What they did is realise that "in-ring" work is not as important for mainstream television. Charasmatic, entertaining "Heroes" and "Villains" is what is important.

Your going on the basis that everyone thinks entertaining to them is the same as it is for you, as if what YOU personally want to see is what the masses really want. The fact is, it's not what you or I want, and the masses don't agree with either one of us. Do they do studies? Sure, but it's not to "brainwash", it's to see what people are into... and right now "reality tv" is what people seem to be into, and so we are seeing a bit of "reality wrestling" now.

This is not to say I dissagree with your thoughts overall... I just dissagree with this one part.

Perhaps I should have used Pepsi instead of Frito Lay, as Pepsico owns Frito lay... but I was just trying to make a simplified example of what I was saying.... and how ridiculous it would be to take John Cena off the shelf.

[djthefunkchris]

But these people's shirts would sell, quite a bit better, if not for every one of them endlessly jobbing to Cena. Every time WWE proves these guys aren't worth squat by having Cena destroy them in six moves, they crap on their merch sales in the process. Surely there's a better way to go about this.

I'm positive there has to be a better way... Not so sure if your correct on the merchandise sells though. I don't care who wins or loses (for example), if I buy merchandise... I'm going to buy who I like, not who other's like. IF I like The Miz, for example, I'm not going to care if he lost, I'm buying Miz Merchandise.

proven by the Nexus shirts right? Sales were high regardless of if they were jobbing or dominating Cena. Don't know exact numbers but I think they were selling out fast at lots of live events.

Doesn't matter really.... Arrows point is not really about merchandise, he's just stretching. Cena (the person this is all about) does alot more then merchandise selling, and although he probably wouldn't be where he is without it, it's not the sole reason for him being where he is. The merchandise example he is using is a way to get around that one thing, to make a bigger point.

His point (And feel free to correct me if I'm wrong Arrows) is that the WWE have invested everything into John Cena, when they could be investing just as much in other's, and elevate them to John Cena's level. I think the percieved viewpoint right now is here is John... 20 miles up... People like HHH and Taker are around 19 miles up, and everyone else (Miz, Punk, etc.) is 10 miles or below. He's just trying to think of a way to "fix" this, as he see's it as a problem.

[Arrows]

I only use merch sales because that seems to be the common point in the "Why Cena is God" topic.

It just seems to me like Cena can't possibly get any more over. He can't possibly go up from where he is. He's Hogan. There's no where to go from there. It's time to USE this, and start bringing other guys up just a little bit.

Instead, they use those guys to try and push Cena further by attempting to make him look even better. That's not gonna get them anything. Outside of this run with Punk, Cena's booking has been ineffective at best.

Like Taker's streak. They've been looking for someone who deserves to end it, to give them that rub. It's time. The streak is not helping Taker any more. The man is a god. He can not go any higher. There's no point in continuing to try and keep it alive now, even if he still had a decade left in his career. It's doing no one any good at all.

I guess you could say CM Punk's the man to end Cena's run, but that's yet to really be seen. Getting hopeful, but I've got a bad feeling this is going to wind up looking a lot like what he did to the Nexus(If the ROH invasion winds up true), where seven(five for ROH?) talents get completely buried so one guy gains, nothing.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think the thing with Cena is that they ARE trying to get people closer to him, there is only so much they can push without dropping Cena down some. It would be an ugly middle period if that happens.

[Arrows]

I think the thing with Cena is that they ARE trying to get people closer to him, there is only so much they can push without dropping Cena down some. It would be an ugly middle period if that happens.

Cena's so strong with the kiddies these days, I don't know if they could drop him down without a heel turn. Some losses wouldn't hurt his image at all. Tapping/losing I quit matches might, but heels cheating to win wouldn't.

[Astil]

Cena's so strong with the kiddies these days, I don't know if they could drop him down without a heel turn. Some losses wouldn't hurt his image at all. Tapping/losing I quit matches might, but heels cheating to win wouldn't.

Who would you say deserves to go over Cena? I have a list myself but I'm curious who you think should.

[bigtplaystew]

Face vs Face feuds work to elevate a face worker. Maybe if he dropped a clean series of losses to another big face some day then it might happen.

Thing is, there's no one with that status right now. I mean Punk's doing great and he's got a very good selling Tshirt right now. He might be the guy if they work this right.

They'll heel turn him if he gets too stale and the sales go down though. I always say they won't heel turn him as long as he sells merch like he does.

[VTial]

See, this is the only thing I totally dissagree with you about. That is entirely your opinion, and of course your welcome to it, but your putting it out as fact... as if they have had a group of people in the office going "We need to downgrade our talent and brainwash our customers!" Note: I do realise your probably including the fact that they have their hands in alot more then just wrestling, and so they wouldn't fall apart if even all of their wrestling shows were cancelled.

This is the first part of my lengthy post:

I'm not saying my version is correct

Edit: Oh and just to clarify, I do mean specifically the wrestling part of their business. That means specifically the wrestling shows and not some side business.

Also, yes, that's not only what I'm saying but it's something that's part of the diatribe Punk said. Why else do you think Punk referred to anything as Vince opting to be rich instead of richer?

The whole thing is common practice for corporations and it's not some new tactic. Even low budget flash games often have games where some try to make a better pro version out of a cheap flash game. Even videogame companies add things like DRM and disguise downloadable contents. Even Hollywood films when tasked with preferring the better but riskier film versus the more easily categorized concept would opt for the latter.

It is only silly if you interpret brainwashing as them intentionally scripting horrible stories that make them so unpopular they lose all their audiences within a year.

Poor stories don't mean horrible stories though, poor stories can just as much be:

a. Good stories with bad pay-off

b. Mediocre stories that add nothing but get cancelled or make you complain until the next feud

c. Tasteless stories like Vince in an exploding car

d. Bad stories that cause entire gimmicks to be scrapped

e. Bad stories that set up a hardcore/ladder match

f. Stories that start out good but take too long and seemingly gets forgetton

g. Decent stories that started having potential but just keeps getting repeated over and over again.

...the list can go on and on. Such examples if applied to a mainstream topic can groom audiences to the point of brainwashing the direction and opinions people have of a product.

No... I totally dissagree with that. My opinion is that they have done studies, and realised a long time before anyone else, that storylines are what keeps people's interest, and the better the storyline the more interest that will follow. They've been doing this "reality" based thing since Vince took over, and although I hated it at first (Get on with the dang show already, I want to see some wrestling!), I can't deny now that I know so much more about the bussiness, I don't think I would be into it at all if it was "Purely" about wrestling... fact is, I know I wouldn't be. As a kid I would have been, as an adult, no way... because everyone has known wrestling was pre-determined since the 1920's (anyone with common scense).

What they did is realise that "in-ring" work is not as important for mainstream television. Charasmatic, entertaining "Heroes" and "Villains" is what is important.

Your going on the basis that everyone thinks entertaining to them is the same as it is for you, as if what YOU personally want to see is what the masses really want. The fact is, it's not what you or I want, and the masses don't agree with either one of us. Do they do studies? Sure, but it's not to "brainwash", it's to see what people are into... and right now "reality tv" is what people seem to be into, and so we are seeing a bit of "reality wrestling" now.

I'd counter this but you're totally off base with interpreting my post.

You're combining too many generations together.

It also doesn't help that you're bringing up a subject that I didn't include. This whole reality tv thing.

As far as in-ring work not being as mainstream, that's up for debate honestly.

WCW and TNA killed itself by ignoring their in-ring wrestlers. WWF in order to compete with WCW had to re-invent it's wrestlers to be better in-ring workers that rely less on gimmicks.

Even right now, regardless of where you rate Punk vs. Cena in your scale, it is generating interesting because it is trying to bring up this greater interest in the in-ring work and not the promos. The promos become better for some because they're talking about in-ring work, not "storylines" and the result of that is that the storylines have more impact.


Perhaps I should have used Pepsi instead of Frito Lay, as Pepsico owns Frito lay... but I was just trying to make a simplified example of what I was saying.... and how ridiculous it would be to take John Cena off the shelf.

Even if you use Pepsi, there's a huge difference in the way the two brands are.

Mcdonald's or Starbucks is a place where they can serve you several repeated items and the fanbase will love it.

Pepsi on the other hand is stuck with a specific flavor. If Pepsi wants to bring something "several" like Frito Lay or some other product, they may have the backing of the WWE like XFL or Tough Enough has, but they can't stand on that image where as WWE can stand on the WWE image. Whatever you put there that's part of the WWE product, whether it gets vastly hated or cheered for, is going to garner in enough numbers to generate a profit especially if they are on the verge of toning up a product like Mcdonald's adding a new limited edition toy or food to the menu temporarily.

[Astil]

WCW and TNA killed itself by ignoring their in-ring wrestlers. WWF in order to compete with WCW had to re-invent it's wrestlers to be better in-ring workers that rely less on gimmicks.

Hm. Maybe I missed this, but I would disagree on this point. Who exactly are you speaking of, because I always thought WWF won the War on the backs on great characters.

[djthefunkchris]

I only use merch sales because that seems to be the common point in the "Why Cena is God" topic.

It just seems to me like Cena can't possibly get any more over. He can't possibly go up from where he is. He's Hogan. There's no where to go from there. It's time to USE this, and start bringing other guys up just a little bit.

Instead, they use those guys to try and push Cena further by attempting to make him look even better. That's not gonna get them anything. Outside of this run with Punk, Cena's booking has been ineffective at best.

Like Taker's streak. They've been looking for someone who deserves to end it, to give them that rub. It's time. The streak is not helping Taker any more. The man is a god. He can not go any higher. There's no point in continuing to try and keep it alive now, even if he still had a decade left in his career. It's doing no one any good at all.

I guess you could say CM Punk's the man to end Cena's run, but that's yet to really be seen. Getting hopeful, but I've got a bad feeling this is going to wind up looking a lot like what he did to the Nexus(If the ROH invasion winds up true), where seven(five for ROH?) talents get completely buried so one guy gains, nothing.

The problem is it's not just Merch sells.... That's just a scapegoat in my opinion. I don't know, but I'm guessing Zack Rider probably does more merch sells now then quite a few more people that get's more camera time (on the shows). That's just one part (although I'm pretty sure a big part) of the many.

Cena is witty... He can come back on anything, anyone says to him in a promo, and capture everyone's attention with one sentence.... A current example is when Punk was doing his thing, and Cena was boo'd and boo'd and boo'd before he got to speak.... then he spoke, the whole place felt the weight of the words. It might not have been the words themselves, but he has something about him that makes people listen, including the people that boo him... For example, when was the last time you heard the boo's over his voice (like with Vickie or Cole). Boo or not, everyone listens up when the man speaks. Has to do with mic skills, charisma, star quality, etc... in TEW terms. An example a little while ago is with The Rock... The Rock had everyone cheering himself, and boo'ing Cena. Yet again, Cena says one line, and the whole place laughs at The Rock. You can try to ignore these things, but all you have to do is youtube it to see what I'm talking about. Doesn't mean cuz you couldn't help laughing at the joke, that you like Cena better or anything like that. The point I'm making is he can hold his own, and he held his own against "the Great One"... something I've rarely seen anyone do, if I've ever seen it done.

There is the work-a-holic facter as well. He's willing to promote the company nonstop. He does everything someone in his shoe's can possibly do, and then you probably would have to times that by at least 2... I know I wouldn't do everything he does.

So far, as far as we know... There is no worries about anything happening with him that could do the company harm. No worries about drugs, steroids, etc. Not even a speeding ticket, at least not to my knowledge. This one thing is probably more important then people think. I can't help but to believe that Kennedy/Anderson could have really gone place's had he not failed in that area. Bassically, he's a safe investment as well as a good investment.

I could go on as could other's, but let me move to something else here... I get what your saying about the way his match's are booked, and I hate it as much as you do. I just hate it for a different reason. To me, your ignoring that most of the time that he wins, in this fashion, it's because the "Heel" makes a mistake, and ussually it's something similar to Swagger running around as if he already won the match, instead of putting him (Cena) away. This happens alot in these match's your saying he burries people in. I don't agree with you on that, as I believe the intention is to make the Heel look like they could have won, if only they wouldn't have let their ego get in the way, and bassically brag about winning before they won. To me this is important to understand. The idea is to get people to percieve that this guy had a legimate chance to win, but instead of getting the job done, they had to act like they already won it when it wasn't over. Kind of like bragging in any game before the game is over, because your ahead at the time... your so busy bragging that the other team has took advantage of your lack of attention to the matter at hand, and has overcome you. This has happened to Cena himself... Doing the "You can't see me" thing with Undertaker, and Undertaker grabbing him by the throat at that instant. What I'm bassically saying, is that most of the match's are booked in such a way, that the heel does something that backfires on them, and you walk away thinking if they didn't do that, they could have won. The Heels will always do something to take advantage of the situation, or something somewhere that backfires on them. A good example of the past is, I remember many match's having the heel take the padding off the turnbuckle, with he intention of throwing the face at it... But while they are taking off the padding the "Hero" revives enough to "accidentally" cause the "Villain" to land on it, and thus the good guy gets the advantage the bad guy was trying to utilize... IF only he didn't take that turnbuckle off, and concentrated on winning, he could have won that match.

You can't call it burrying someone when the match isn't booked to bury anyone. IF your going to bury someone, your not going to give them an out for losing.

[Fantabulous]

WWE, at least in the modern era, has always had a problem when it comes to replacing the current top babyface with the next guy to carry the mantle. They've invariably gone with a quick fix of some kind rather than steadily build a guy up and make a smooth transition from one top babyface to the next.

When Hogan left in 1992, they brought Warrior back to try and plug the gap instead of spending the previous year building a new young hope. While Warrior was there, and they did have Savage as well but he was no long-term solution, they didn't really build anyone up and when Warrior was fired they abruptly shoved Bret Hart into the top spot despite him being midcard fixture for most of his tenure. When that didn't take, they went with the quick fix of Hogan and when he walked out they immediately turned Lex Luger from relatively lukewarm midcard heel into the super patriot babyface that, for a short time, was really over but had no legs.

From there, they want back to Bret for a more serious run as the top guy but even then, when had a nice slow-build going with Diesel, when they did make the change, they turned Diesel and gave him the belt all in three days Whether a slower build to the title would have worked better for his reign is debatable but the results of what happened speak for themselves. From there, the title went back to Bret to keep warm for Shawn in a reign that did nothing to help Bret or the prestige of the title. Shawn did have a good build towards the title, which is unfortunately the example that proves the rule in this case.

When it comes time to replace Cena as the top babyface of the company, odds are pretty good it will be done rather abruptly and won't take liked they'd hope.

[lazorbeak]

Hm. Maybe I missed this, but I would disagree on this point. Who exactly are you speaking of, because I always thought WWF won the War on the backs on great characters.

Yeah the Monday Night Wars weren't won on the basis of "workrate." WWF had new, exciting characters doing things that audiences hadn't seen before. Not through an exhaustive EWR-style battle.

[djthefunkchris]

Hm. Maybe I missed this, but I would disagree on this point. Who exactly are you speaking of, because I always thought WWF won the War on the backs on great characters.

I seen that too. I don't know what he actually means there, because the way most see it, is that WWF re-invented their characters to be more "ECW'ish" in attitude, nothing to do with the ring work to be honest. Bassically, the opposite of what he's trying to say is true for that, and I wouldn't have brought it up if I were argueing points about in ring work. What I mean, is the whole "Entertainment" thing is what beat WCW, not the in ring work. WWF entertained people better, because much like TNA today, WCW did have some great in ring performers.

I also believe TNA ratings haven't actually dipped at all, in average.. they are relatively the same as always.

[Teh_Showtime]

TNA ratings have dropped the last 3 weeks or so. Not because they showcase their taleted wrestlers...because they hardly do. Their ratings were up through the DX build up.

[djthefunkchris]

TNA ratings have dropped the last 3 weeks or so. Not because they showcase their taleted wrestlers...because they hardly do. Their ratings were up through the DX build up.

In general, looks the same for the entire year... Yeah, they drop a bit here and there, but they come back up for whatever reasons. Steadily staying above 1.0 though, and that's new for them. IF you look at the yearly averages, I would say they steadily increased (Very Slowly), up till 2010, and since the "Hogan/Bischoff" era has took off, although there was a moment when it hit a record high, it's pretty much stayed the same with some ups and downs, but then again, so has RAW bassically.

01/6/11-- 1.16
1/13/11-- 1.25
1/20/11-- 1.15
1/27/11-- 1.28
02/3/11-- 1.31
2/10/11-- 1.2
2/17/11-- 1.13
2/24/11-- 1.26
03/3/11-- 1.36
3/10/11-- 1.25
3/17/11-- 1.28
3/24/11-- 1.23
3/31/11-- 1.19
04/7/11-- 1.15
4/14/11-- 1.14
4/21/11-- 1.17
4/28/11-- 1.1
05/5/11-- 1.15
5/12/11-- 1.27
5/19/11-- 1.17
5/26/11-- 1.2
06/2/11-- 1.08
06/9/11-- 1.0
6/16/11-- 1.25
6/23/11-- 1.17
6/30/11-- 1.27 (limited commercial interruptions)
07/7/11-- 1.1
7/14/11-- 1.19
7/21/11-- 1.25
7/28/11-- 1.19
08/4/11-- 1.14

[jjohns44]

Awesome facepop for Sheamus when he came out for the Christian match. Great to see he's relevant to the live fans and not someone they'll just there and not do anything when he comes out. One of my faves of this era!

and I do love they are finally remembering they have Intercontinental/U.S and Tag Team champions and are actually using them on a regular basis.

[djthefunkchris]

I seen Aksana (I have no idea how to spell her name) has died her hair and was flirting with Teddy. Wonder what they are planning for her?

Kind of weird how it seems they are trying to get the Diva's division upgraded, or more attention, or something. Natalya teaming with Beth is something I honestly seen coming, but I wouldn't have seen that coming if not for recent events. Seems as though they are giving the same message that Kong did with the doll. Would be kind of weird if all three end up teaming up, but I have a feeling that Kharma is going to actually end up on the "Kelly Kelly" side of things when it's all said and done (The monster "Face"?!?!!), and that would be something unique as well.

Tomorrow will answer alot in the way of the current main fueds going,

[VTial]

Hm. Maybe I missed this, but I would disagree on this point. Who exactly are you speaking of, because I always thought WWF won the War on the backs on great characters.

No one in particular. It was just the trend.

We can use Austin for example. Was Austin a great "character"?

Not necessarily if you analyze it from the perspective of a kayfabe great character. Instead the character had to be updated because the character themselves weren't good enough to appease the fans anymore and updated in such a way that instead of the WWE selling you the idea that they had the best there is and the best there was or that they had the Ultimate Warrior or the mega Giant or any perception of a top guy.

Guys like Austin and the Rock and HBK towed the line for the first time of a Cena-like champion. A champion that wasn't based off on credibility of power and skill but on entertainment. It combined both the image of Flair and Hogan but this time there was less pretense on character building.

What made it tolerable and in some ways what made it mega-popular at the time was that these characters did a variation of what the Ultimate Warrior did which was a combination of the in-ring work adding to the promos and the promos adding to the illusion that the in-ring work was great...except Warrior still had to be a credible champion. Austin, The Rock, HBK...they didn't need to be.

Earlier they were still challenged. Like you believed Austin was someone who may not present the illusion that he's unbeatable but he backs up his talk. Later on however it was all about Austin's character being a caricature and what fans really look forward to was the energy of the moves. The anticipation of not only a Hogan doing a leg drop "to win" but instead the anticipation of Austin just doing a stunner even in promos. The Rock further stretched out this destruction of character.

When the Rock started doing the People's Elbow, it may seem like a similar move to Hogan's leg drop but for the first time it made everything seem like a joke where you as a viewer was seeing this guy pull off a pad where night in and night out he didn't even need to try to comeback like Hogan. He could just do a rock bottom, most of the time the opponent will be a zombie and the crowd will go wild with the move. A move that literally is an in-ring move and not a move sold by a promo and not a move that in any sense of a word is a finisher...a move that literally groomed fans to the idea of a trademark move being more entertaining then a character based wrestling match.

...And this transition worked because the guys that were doing it were great in-ring workers and often times the WWF was trying to elevate their characters whether successfully or not. It was only tolerable during HHH times and Cena's times because of what these guys already prepared the audience of a certain style of perception that combined both a weak champion that didn't have to have the Ultimate Warrior's muscles or Hogan's wins to pad up a mega-finisher that is equally less about devastation but a combination of "over-exposed" characters intermixed with a move that says "this is over" rather than "it is all over!".

This doesn't even start to address the booking. This is just talking about the gradual shift from the relevance of characters doing moves to the phenomenon of great in-ring workers redefining the necessity of gimmicks into mere mic talks whose exclamation points were not the moves itself but the intangible elements of exciting in-ring work that gives them illusion of a guy who can say the same catchphrase over and over again and still seem like a fresh character to the audience.

I seen that too. I don't know what he actually means there, because the way most see it, is that WWF re-invented their characters to be more "ECW'ish" in attitude, nothing to do with the ring work to be honest. Bassically, the opposite of what he's trying to say is true for that, and I wouldn't have brought it up if I were argueing points about in ring work. What I mean, is the whole "Entertainment" thing is what beat WCW, not the in ring work. WWF entertained people better, because much like TNA today, WCW did have some great in ring performers.

I also believe TNA ratings haven't actually dipped at all, in average.. they are relatively the same as always.

That's the common perception and it's not wrong but it doesn't address why
when WWF adopted the pattern, it took off where ECW still felt too hardcore for audiences despite the fact that they should have at least somewhat the same appeal if this were true.

It's like the Star Wars entry put here: http://www.cracked.com/article_18530_5-pop-culture-classics-created-out-laziness_p2.html

Anything that gets over is always based on entertainment. The in-ring work is part of that.

However that's why sometimes specifics tell a different story. If we just start talking about things from our perspectives rather than from what our general perspectives are, our opinions will always rise above anything beyond the taken for granted talking points that we read up or came to the conclusion to and saw many others came to the conclusion to.

It may produce lots of wall of text type of posts but if we strive for the lesser length then it may seem like we're talking lots of things above someone that simply says "Cena sucks cause he sucks" but really we're not. We just end up doing the same thing as what Fox News does to politics.

That's how the ECW reference mostly become a strengthened myth. It may have some factual backing but the "attitude" isn't enough as you see with some of the complaints with Cena. It also ignores that Heyman was not dealing with main eventers that were exposed in the television screen and the WWF at the time was. It just became the official myth because most people wanted to credit ECW as entertaining and in some ways a pioneer but no matter how anyone wants to present it, ECW just wasn't going to fly. It was not just the slight shift in attitude but just the difference in build-up and perception the two things give off.

It's not even limited to the WWE. The knife chops of Kenta Kobashi is a variation of stiff style. Yet the popularity of Kobashi somewhat surpassed stiff style because the in-ring work as a whole wasn't really just an NJPW type of execution and attitude. It was something like what the WWE had with Austin. Whether those wrestlers from time to time participate in something else, the truth is they were delivering a modified hybrid of in-ring work and not just an attitude copy or an entertainment shift that's why they endeared for so long not just in the memory of fans but in the level of popularity they retain even after they retired and were half-assedly added on-screen from time to time.

[Astil]

No one in particular. It was just the trend.

We can use Austin for example. Was Austin a great "character"?

Yes. Rebels sell. Kayfabe wise he was very protected.

Not necessarily if you analyze it from the perspective of a kayfabe great character. Instead the character had to be updated because the character themselves weren't good enough to appease the fans anymore and updated in such a way that instead of the WWE selling you the idea that they had the best there is and the best there was or that they had the Ultimate Warrior or the mega Giant or any perception of a top guy.

So you're saying WWE moved away from powerhouse cartoony characters to more realistic characters? Just want to make sure I'm following correctly.

Guys like Austin and the Rock and HBK towed the line for the first time of a Cena-like champion. A champion that wasn't based off on credibility of power and skill but on entertainment. It combined both the image of Flair and Hogan but this time there was less pretense on character building.

I disagree a lot. There was a huge pretense on character building. Rock, Austin, HBK, HHH, Mankind, Jericho, Taker, hell even Kane. These where not one dimensional characters. Austin was a man who wanted a good fight, not a technical prissy fight, a BRAWL. He'd go out, drink some Stevewiesers and look for a brawl. Eventually that morphed into fighting the man who tried to stop him from brawling, VKM. Which turned him into a sensation.

The Rock began as this bland face who was hated by the fans. So he turned on the fans, becoming all about himself. He disintegrated his faction with his selfcenteredness then blamed that on Farooq. From there he began to see himself at the top, only to falter a few times. He kept his swagger (as much as I hate the overuse of that word now) and the fans began to change there tune on him ... and he too changed his tune on the fans.

Both of those are but a few of the well developed intreguing characters I remember from what i've seen of the day.

What made it tolerable and in some ways what made it mega-popular at the time was that these characters did a variation of what the Ultimate Warrior did which was a combination of the in-ring work adding to the promos and the promos adding to the illusion that the in-ring work was great...except Warrior still had to be a credible champion. Austin, The Rock, HBK...they didn't need to be.

Earlier they were still challenged. Like you believed Austin was someone who may not present the illusion that he's unbeatable but he backs up his talk. Later on however it was all about Austin's character being a caricature and what fans really look forward to was the energy of the moves. The anticipation of not only a Hogan doing a leg drop "to win" but instead the anticipation of Austin just doing a stunner even in promos. The Rock further stretched out this destruction of character.

Austin wasn't a caricature until he was on his way out, and he wasn't a champ any more.


When the Rock started doing the People's Elbow, it may seem like a similar move to Hogan's leg drop but for the first time it made everything seem like a joke where you as a viewer was seeing this guy pull off a pad where night in and night out he didn't even need to try to comeback like Hogan.

If I remember correctly, he started doing the Elbow as a heel, mocking the 'People' and how they'd go crazy for theatrics.

He could just do a rock bottom, most of the time the opponent will be a zombie and the crowd will go wild with the move. A move that literally is an in-ring move and not a move sold by a promo and not a move that in any sense of a word is a finisher...a move that literally groomed fans to the idea of a trademark move being more entertaining then a character based wrestling match.

But the move was part of the character. If a character like say Kane had started doing it, it wouldn't matter.

If a character like Rock started flipping people off before there finisher, it wouldn't matter.

If a character like Austin 'Hulked Up' it wouldn't matter.

The moves match the characters. They are all a product of the gimmick.

...And this transition worked because the guys that were doing it were great in-ring workers and often times the WWF was trying to elevate their characters whether successfully or not.

Woah! I missed a logic leap somehow! The People's Elbow makes the Rock a great in-ring worker?

It was only tolerable during HHH times and Cena's times because of what these guys already prepared the audience of a certain style of perception that combined both a weak champion that didn't have to have the Ultimate Warrior's muscles or Hogan's wins to pad up a mega-finisher that is equally less about devastation but a combination of "over-exposed" characters intermixed with a move that says "this is over" rather than "it is all over!".

:/

Let me get this out of the way. HHH is better in ring than Rock.

Also HHH doesn't have a character specific move. He has a finisher, but unless we're counting the AA Spinebuster as a character move he doesn't have one.

The Five Knuckle Shuffle started the exact same way as the peoples elbow, from a heel, making fun of fans.

Hm, so you're saying Cena's F-U is more 'this is over' rather than 'it's all over'?

This doesn't even start to address the booking. This is just talking about the gradual shift from the relevance of characters doing moves to the phenomenon of great in-ring workers redefining the necessity of gimmicks into mere mic talks whose exclamation points were not the moves itself but the intangible elements of exciting in-ring work that gives them illusion of a guy who can say the same catchphrase over and over again and still seem like a fresh character to the audience.


I'd be interested to hear your take on the Undertaker.

I guess my conclusion is we have vary different ideas of 'great in ring work'. (Not trying to insult, just seems like the conclusion.)

[VTial]

So you're saying WWE moved away from powerhouse cartoony characters to more realistic characters? Just want to make sure I'm following correctly.

No. Like the statement with the WWF adopting an ECW attitude, that statement is not incorrect but it really wasn't realistic characters. Part of Austin's transition dealt somewhat with a shift to realistic characters but it was more of a shift to in-ring incomplete characters from a period where the characters may be cartoony but they tried to make them more complete (but not necessarily complete) characters.

I disagree a lot. There was a huge pretense on character building. Rock, Austin, HBK, HHH, Mankind, Jericho, Taker, hell even Kane. These where not one dimensional characters. Austin was a man who wanted a good fight, not a technical prissy fight, a BRAWL. He'd go out, drink some Stevewiesers and look for a brawl. Eventually that morphed into fighting the man who tried to stop him from brawling, VKM. Which turned him into a sensation.

I'd reply here but I believe this is just an extension of your assumption that I was talking about the age old shift from realistic characters.

Even this logic if you analyze it doesn't really make sense. It makes sense to us because this is how we often interpreted the shift.

The fact is: every feud are wrestlers wanting to have a good fight. Even way back then with the cartoony characters.

Both of those are but a few of the well developed intreguing characters I remember from what i've seen of the day.

They are well developed because we remember them as entertaining not because they are well developed.

Austin wasn't a caricature until he was on his way out, and he wasn't a champ any more.

That's a matter of opinion and frankly I don't think we really need to agree on that to discuss the subject matter.

Woah! I missed a logic leap somehow! The People's Elbow makes the Rock a great in-ring worker?
:/

Yes but not by the definition of smarks. The truth is a great in-ring move that can be done by a great in-ring worker is a move that not everyone can do.

We often attribute it to grappling and high spots because those seem like a degree of skill but showmanship is just as difficult a skill. Not everyone can mimic the People's Elbow (especially not regularly as opposed to trying to parody the move) and get the same reaction.

One thing that I should clarify is that I didn't say what you claim I'm saying. The topic originally was about the focus and relevance of in-ring work not whether a wrestler is a great in-ring worker or not.

Let me get this out of the way. HHH is better in ring than Rock.

Also HHH doesn't have a character specific move. He has a finisher, but unless we're counting the AA Spinebuster as a character move he doesn't have one.

I'm not really interested in wrestler A vs. wrestler B so no offense but I won't answer this as this has very little to do with why I was talking about in-ring work.

I'd be interested to hear your take on the Undertaker.

The Undertaker's tombstone is like Hogan's leg drop. It's a finisher. Maybe a weak finisher but it's not a fight ender. It's like a post-match taunt. It was always done after mostly a back and forth battle. It's not a sign to the crowd that the match is going to end as much as it gives the illusion to the crowd that the wrestler is going to finish his opponent. That he has beaten him enough that this move was going to end it. It's not a sudden sequence of moves.

I guess my conclusion is we have vary different ideas of 'great in ring work'. (Not trying to insult, just seems like the conclusion.)

No. That's the illusion because I'm not fitting the talking points. I get what you're saying with great in-ring work and I agree with that.

What you're missing is this:

My post that I was talking about:

WCW and TNA killed itself by ignoring their in-ring wrestlers. WWF in order to compete with WCW had to re-invent it's wrestlers to be better in-ring workers that rely less on gimmicks.

Your reply:

Hm. Maybe I missed this, but I would disagree on this point. Who exactly are you speaking of, because I always thought WWF won the War on the backs on great characters.

Neither of this is a topic about who is a great in-ring worker and who is not. It's a topic of why I attribute something that you feel doesn't match with your perceived notion of how the WWF shifted their eras.

[djthefunkchris]

Steve Austins character was simple to understand... He's that guy that said "Take this job and shove it!" It didn't have to be well developed...

NOTE: The Stone Cold character wasn't much different then his character in ECW... However, if your talking about the "Ringmaster" gimmick, that's another thing altogether.

The Rock developed similarly to Cena. I'd have to say The Rock's character is more developed then Austins looking at it like this, but here's the thing... Austin developed his character, and it was the perfect character for the time, with Vince. They elevated each other up, but you know this....

Neither one of them had to be "good" with "in ring" work because they weren't boring...

Cena isn't much worse then either one of them were at their highest popularity, as far as "in ring" work. I bring this up to make my point, not because I think you hate Cena or something, but let me give this scenario I gave people a while back, of what I feel would refresh Cena's character.

What if Cena was alot like Superman (The one that don't take any crap, in the comics not the movies). What if he was the guy that when he walked up, lesser heels tried to get as far away from him as possible. What if whenever a face was being mistreated, or bullied, they ran for Cena and the guy giving them problems got worried as soon as they seen Cena. What if when he had match's, he whipped lesser opponants (talking about the guys lower down the card, that aren't at the time in line for a push) in short bouts, where he didn't mess around... perhaps just did the five moves of doom and Bang! 1, 2, 3. What if even the "Boss" was carefull with the way they talked to him, because he might explode if it comes accross wrong?

These are things that made Austin big, and his character feel fresh... because we knew there was no way to predict what he did.... Was he going to sing the guy a song, or stun him? With Cena it's different.... We almost always know he's going to do whatever is the "right" thing to do. Even when it doesn't help him one bit. He's the ultimate good guy. Won't ever cheat, won't ever make excuses, even when everyone knows if not for him having to get out of the ring, CM Punk might have tapped.... Not going to here that out of his mouth, instead your going to here him say "Congratulations Son, Good Match!" What I'm saying is that his character is a "Push-Over". It's not unlike the guy in the Kenny Roger's song, "Promise me son, not to do the things I done. Walk away from trouble when you can. Now it won't mean your weak, if you turn the other cheek...." The problem is he never gets to the last line "I promised you dad, not to do the things you've done. I walk away from trouble when I can. Now please don't think I'm weak, I can't turn the other cheek. I sure hope you understand..." He never gets there. Nothing upsets him. He didn't even act like he was at all upset at what The Rock said about him, yet The Rock (his character) is of course UPSET with Cena.

Cena's character is the problem, not the history of HHH, Undertaker, The Rock, or Austin. Cena's the ultimate good guy, and an ultimate good guy is a boring guy.

[Fantabulous]

Was Austin a great "character"?

Give what Austin did for the company, this might be a one of the most absurd questions ever seriously asked.

[jjohns44]

It's probably a good thing I have to work tonight or I would tempt myself into forking over another 45 bucks for the pay per view. I am looking forward to how these stories evolve: particularly with the Christian/Orton feud and Cena/CM Punk match. I keep coming to the general conclusion that CM Punk made at the end of RAW 'so that's how it's going to be?' made me remember the attitude era with CM Punk basically being 'Austin' and HHH/Cena being the new corporation.

whoever wrote this stuff is great. Yeah, we've seen it before in the attitude era, but at least it's keeping me and hopefully a lot of you interested in 'wtf is gonna happen now'

[Arrows]

What if Cena was alot like Superman (The one that don't take any crap, in the comics not the movies). What if he was the guy that when he walked up, lesser heels tried to get as far away from him as possible. What if whenever a face was being mistreated, or bullied, they ran for Cena and the guy giving them problems got worried as soon as they seen Cena. What if when he had match's, he whipped lesser opponants (talking about the guys lower down the card, that aren't at the time in line for a push) in short bouts, where he didn't mess around... perhaps just did the five moves of doom and Bang! 1, 2, 3. What if even the "Boss" was carefull with the way they talked to him, because he might explode if it comes accross wrong?


If they used this and managed to turn around and make the bigger villains look solid against him(no five move loses, even if it is after 20 minutes), it'd work a lot better than what they're doing now.

Of course, I think Cena as a hero is an idiotic idea from the start. What kind of hero trespasses and assaults former co-workers for weeks?

What kind of hero makes 'package' jokes about the villains?

As a hero, he's teaching kids it's okay to break the law.

[SaySo]

If they used this and managed to turn around and make the bigger villains look solid against him(no five move loses, even if it is after 20 minutes), it'd work a lot better than what they're doing now.

Of course, I think Cena as a hero is an idiotic idea from the start. What kind of hero trespasses and assaults former co-workers for weeks?

What kind of hero makes 'package' jokes about the villains?

As a hero, he's teaching kids it's okay to break the law.

Supposedly he made a promise to get rid of these former co-workers. End Nexus (storyline at the time he did but eventually they came back under new leadership of CM Punk).

He kept his word. That would be equivalent to LeBron keeping his word and bringing a championship to Cleveland. But look how that turned out.

[Arrows]

Supposedly he made a promise to get rid of these former co-workers. End Nexus (storyline at the time he did but eventually they came back under new leadership of CM Punk).

He kept his word. That would be equivalent to LeBron keeping his word and bringing a championship to Cleveland. But look how that turned out.

So it's okay to break the law, as long as you do so to keep a promise to someone?

[djthefunkchris]

So it's okay to break the law, as long as you do so to keep a promise to someone?

Pretty sure they mentioned him buying a ticket. The Rock did the same thing, far as the jokes are concerned. I don't know, I find it entertaining, but I can see your point to some extent, but I think your taking it to far. It's all done in fun most of the time, and it's ussually funny. But that's kind of what I mean... I think he would be alot less stale if he just threw all that away, and got serious.... Instead of making jokes, just beat them down, then ask them how much they feel like talking afterwards.

In all honesty, I don't think Cena could do that kind of character though, it's not in "his" natural abilities, where it is in Austins, and perhaps even Punk.

[Arrows]

Pretty sure they mentioned him buying a ticket. The Rock did the same thing, far as the jokes are concerned. I don't know, I find it entertaining, but I can see your point to some extent, but I think your taking it to far. It's all done in fun most of the time, and it's ussually funny. But that's kind of what I mean... I think he would be alot less stale if he just threw all that away, and got serious.... Instead of making jokes, just beat them down, then ask them how much they feel like talking afterwards.

In all honesty, I don't think Cena could do that kind of character though, it's not in "his" natural abilities, where it is in Austins, and perhaps even Punk.

He was backstage, where non-staff aren't allowed, and even had help beating up defenseless former co-workers. If I did that, I'd be in prison.

[Fantabulous]

Punk/Cena should be really good. It won't be as heated as MitB and probably not as dramatic for a number of reasons, but if they don't go too long it can be a lot smoother and not have as many botches. It'll be a great wrestling match, although I'm sure the next TNA X-Division spotfest will be cited by someone as having a higher quality of wrestling. My only problem is that Triple H is almost sure to overshadow both of them if he plays some kind of role in the finish or aftermath, possibly involving the original plan for the Punk Raw return, where he lays Punk out and ADR cashes in on him.

[djthefunkchris]

My only problem is that Triple H is almost sure to overshadow both of them if he plays some kind of role in the finish or aftermath, possibly involving the original plan for the Punk Raw return, where he lays Punk out and ADR cashes in on him.

Hmm, I don't think I have a problem with that at all. Considering Rey was said to get his re-match title shot from whomever wins at Summer Slam. That's putting ADR, Mysterio, Punk, and Cena all on the highlight reel at the same time, which could be very interesting.


EDIT: You know I would rather ADR wait, and cash it in on the Rock at Wrestlemania... at least that's what I would do. It gives The Rock an out if he becomes the WWE Champion, and could set up some nice stories.

[djthefunkchris]

He was backstage, where non-staff aren't allowed, and even had help beating up defenseless former co-workers. If I did that, I'd be in prison.

/nod. You have to keep in mind that people watch it as a fictitious show, and the stuff you have a problem with is in a dozen movies a year, where the good guy bassically does something similar.... Heck, Batman breaks laws all the time *(for example). Is it 100% right? No. However, I don't know anyone that looks at wrestling quite like you do, in that reguard. It bugs the heck out of you for some reason... perhaps it does in movies as well?

The thing is, you have to realise that everyone knows it's a "show" not an actual "contest". It's an action/comedy/circus sitcom for men, bassically.

[Arrows]

Punk NEEDS the title to not be just another nobody after tonight. If he can't walk out right the belt, he's got nothing.

[ShaunGBD]

He was backstage, where non-staff aren't allowed, and even had help beating up defenseless former co-workers. If I did that, I'd be in prison.

Wait, what happened? Never heard that before.

[Arrows]

/nod. You have to keep in mind that people watch it as a fictitious show, and the stuff you have a problem with is in a dozen movies a year, where the good guy bassically does something similar.... Heck, Batman breaks laws all the time *(for example). Is it 100% right? No. However, I don't know anyone that looks at wrestling quite like you do, in that reguard. It bugs the heck out of you for some reason... perhaps it does in movies as well?

The thing is, you have to realise that everyone knows it's a "show" not an actual "contest". It's an action/comedy/circus sitcom for men, bassically.

Children, don't.

The silly little kids with the arm bands and idiotic t-shirts? They see what he does as "right". If I had a kid old enough to be influenced by it, I would've cut my tv off during that whole run.

[Arrows]

Wait, what happened? Never heard that before.

When Cena was "fired", he showed up backstage and beat up the Nexus with help from a few other wrestlers. Try and walk backstage at a wrestling show, see how fast you're in a cop car.

[djthefunkchris]

Children, don't.

The silly little kids with the arm bands and idiotic t-shirts? They see what he does as "right". If I had a kid old enough to be influenced by it, I would've cut my tv off during that whole run.
That would be your right and every other parents right.... But my child has known it was fake since he was five, and before that he wasn't interested in the shows, just the games.

In any case, a TV Show doesn't control what my child does, I do/did. I truly believe if you have the time (these days, everyone doesn't) to raise a child properly, they will keep it with them for life... especially if you make yourself available for them when your needed (or when they think they need you).

Even cartoons do these things Arrows. Your being a bit ridiculous, IMO here. I understand your wanting to make a point, and I understand the point your making. But it's no different to me then when that big Ogre showed up at the Castle to defeat the Prince, even though he was trespassing.

[Fantabulous]

Wrestling, especially in the modern era where logic became less of a requirement, is littered with babyfaces and heels where their actions and words are diametrically opposed to their supposed disposition.

[Arrows]

That would be your right and every other parents right.... But my child has known it was fake since he was five, and before that he wasn't interested in the shows, just the games.

In any case, a TV Show doesn't control what my child does, I do/did. I truly believe if you have the time (these days, everyone doesn't) to raise a child properly, they will keep it with them for life... especially if you make yourself available for them when your needed (or when they think they need you).

Even cartoons do these things Arrows. Your being a bit ridiculous, IMO here. I understand your wanting to make a point, and I understand the point your making. But it's no different to me then when that big Ogre showed up at the Castle to defeat the Prince, even though he was trespassing.

That ogre's not shoved down kid's throats on a weekly basis as a role model. You're not told to be like him. You're not told to be like Batman.

You've got Cena running around with the Hustle, Loyalty, Respect, garbage, trying to teach kids values, all the while he's just some common thug pansy with no values himself.

Entirely different situation.

[Gabbo]

Arrows is just a blind Cena hater.

I'm not having a go at Arrows, I actually like him - but the points he's made in this thread recently do nothing but show him to be laughably obsessed with his hatred of Cena.

I mean it's wrestling, a fake sport where people beat each other up. How can you possibly set a positive example to impressionable children from that. You're scraping the bottom of the barrel too much to try and put Cena down.

[Fantabulous]

Arrow makes some good points but, naturally, they must be the product of a 'hater'. Strange how no effort has been made to counter them, but you get that from people who throw around the term 'hater'; it's an easy out to dismiss points you can't argue with.

[Arrows]

Arrows is just a blind Cena hater.

I'm not having a go at Arrows, I actually like him - but the points he's made in this thread recently do nothing but show him to be laughably obsessed with his hatred of Cena.

I mean it's wrestling, a fake sport where people beat each other up. How can you possibly set a positive example to impressionable children from that. You're scraping the bottom of the barrel too much to try and put Cena down.

Yeah. It's impossible! Except for the fact that the man they want to make Cena into, actually did it, 20 years ago, with relative ease. Guess that one doesn't count? How about Sting pre-96? He never did anything that'd be criminal. Always stood up to the bad guy. Never gave up the fight, no matter how badly he was getting beaten. If he'd had mic skills, he would've been WCW's Hogan. That doesn't count either, eh?

[Fantabulous]

It's a curious deal these days. You only ever see critics of Cena being dismissed as 'haters' and their points conveniently ignored by those calling them that. If someone makes a point against, say, Punk or Triple H or anyone, you usually get someone arguing the opposing view. But with Cena, you're far more likely to see someone being dismissed as a 'hater' and no attempt made to argue the opposing view. What is it about Cena that causes people to be reluctant to put forth an argument against any points being raised against him?

If someone claimed Rey was a 'spot monkey' or something, you'd never get them being called a 'hater'; you'd get someone explaining their view of why Rey wasn't a spot monkey.

[Gabbo]

If you think Sting never did anything criminal you haven't watched enough of him pre 1996. Run-ins, after match brawls etc. It's all 'assault'. Which is basically where your entire point falls down.

When Cena was "fired", he showed up backstage and beat up the Nexus with help from a few other wrestlers. Try and walk backstage at a wrestling show, see how fast you're in a cop car.

They didn't put Melina in a cop car when she did it last week.


Wrestlers all set the example that fighting is the way to settle a dispute, which is illegal. You go out and fight someone in the street and you'll be locked up. If you don't think your child can comprehend it's a TV show and the differences within that he shouldn't be watching wrestling full stop.

[Stennick]

Yeah Melina wasn't put in a cop car and wrestlers and former wrestlers show up backstage all the time. John was well liked and even if he was fired they would have atleast let him backstage. Heck Bret Hart was allowed backstage to WWE RAW in 1998 he talks about how everyone was great to him in his book.

[SaySo]

When Cena was "fired", he showed up backstage and beat up the Nexus with help from a few other wrestlers. Try and walk backstage at a wrestling show, see how fast you're in a cop car.

You think what they portray is real?

[SaySo]

Punk NEEDS the title to not be just another nobody after tonight. If he can't walk out right the belt, he's got nothing.

Wait, he needs to win or he's a nobody.

Lashley lost to Cena in his last WWE PPV appearance, was he a nobody afterwards? Why did StrikeForce ink Lashley? Because he was a nobody or a guy high up the card.

[Arrows]

If you think Sting never did anything criminal you haven't watched enough of him pre 1996. Run-ins, after match brawls etc. It's all 'assault'. Which is basically where your entire point falls down.



They didn't put Melina in a cop car when she did it last week.


Wrestlers all set the example that fighting is the way to settle a dispute, which is illegal. You go out and fight someone in the street and you'll be locked up. If you don't think your child can comprehend it's a TV show and the differences within that he shouldn't be watching wrestling full stop.

Show me Sting _starting_ one of those run ins or post match attacks. The only time I can recall Sting being involved in something someone else didn't start against him, he was coming to the rescue.

They also didn't let Melina in. Had she tried to force her way in like Cena must've to be backstage for those assaults, she would've been arrested.

Your point falls flat here. Wrestlers wrestle for a living. It's their job. It's how they pay the bills, and get food. In the land of kayfabe, it's a competitive sport where the better man makes the most monies and pays more bills and has better stuffs. Not two guys beating each other up cause they don't like each other.

90% of Sting's career. He is wrestling to make a living. Some big bad comes to try and end his career and disrupt his ability to make a living. He defends himself and stands up to them, proving that believing in yourself and not giving up can over come any odds.

That, is heroic.

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah. It's impossible! Except for the fact that the man they want to make Cena into, actually did it, 20 years ago, with relative ease. Guess that one doesn't count? How about Sting pre-96? He never did anything that'd be criminal. Always stood up to the bad guy. Never gave up the fight, no matter how badly he was getting beaten. If he'd had mic skills, he would've been WCW's Hogan. That doesn't count either, eh?

You do know that Hogan was "kafabe", not in the promotion when he come back ala, under a mask (and everyone knew it was him, etc) as Mr. America?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl3TnqUumfU

Definately was the "Face" for that as well, kept his theme and everything. Remember, everyone was speculating about Cena doing something similar?



This guy wasn't looking for a fight... (Sting Pre 96)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYeql4v9x-c&feature=related

And this proves absolutely nothing, because it's not "exactly" the same thing, although it's reasonably the same thing under different conditions of the same...

The point I'm making is that your not seeing anything new, in general. None of us are, although it might be new to us. These things have gone on way before WWF took the reigns of the wrestling horse and moved on... AWA had Hulk Hogan wrestling under a mask as well... Super Destroyer, he took on the persona of Super Strong Machine at one time as well.

This is NOT the first time a face has did these types of things... You suggesting we all forget the history, and look at just one person as if it's something that we shouldn't endorse or whatever, is rather silly. It's something that we not only endorse, but DEMAND. What would you have had them do?

You know, you don't have to try so hard at making something sound reasonable.... All you have to do is say, "Boy, that was lame, firing Cena then him showing up week after week anyways." and most everyone would agree with that point of view. Saying "It's totally wrong, he's not playing fair against a bunch of unfair people... He's beating them at their OWN game!" as if that wasn't the whole point of the storyling in the first place.

[VTial]

Yeah. It's impossible! Except for the fact that the man they want to make Cena into, actually did it, 20 years ago, with relative ease. Guess that one doesn't count? How about Sting pre-96? He never did anything that'd be criminal. Always stood up to the bad guy. Never gave up the fight, no matter how badly he was getting beaten. If he'd had mic skills, he would've been WCW's Hogan. That doesn't count either, eh?

This is why it's best to ignore stuff like these. If the guy's only point is that you are a Cena hater throwing back mud at him won't make your point much clearer.

I think a more valid criticism to your comment is how Cena's current character despite turning face is still an extension of a heel who is also a bad rapper that gets constantly poked fun of by both heels and faces. The role message Cena is sending is not that you should do what he does.

Hustle. Loyalty. Respect. If you analyze those words:

Hustle is a message that you should always persevere in your dreams.

Loyalty is a message that you should never forget the ones who supported you through thick and thin and you shouldn't disappoint them or change just because the world seemingly hates you for who you are.

Finally, Respect is all about doing things with principle. Whether it be to only poke fun at people who try to push your buttons or it's about going dirty only on people who plays dirty.

None of the message Cena sends as a role model shows that he is suppose to be a paragon that his idols should mimic or look upon for support. If anything, he's more of a poser character. A man who will do things the way he wants to including wearing things he wants and executing things the way he does regardless whether it wins him a popularity contest.

Not saying kids will often analyze this in-depth but Cena isn't really trying to be a hero or an anti-hero. He barely runs in to save anyone. Even in kayfabe reality, he's no more no less a rebel than Austin except he's not portrayed as a tweener and his moves are not weapons but rituals to show how his perseverance got him to the point of once again winning the title against another annoying heel.

[SaySo]

Yeah Melina wasn't put in a cop car and wrestlers and former wrestlers show up backstage all the time. John was well liked and even if he was fired they would have atleast let him backstage. Heck Bret Hart was allowed backstage to WWE RAW in 1998 he talks about how everyone was great to him in his book.

Just look at Stone Cold. He did everything that would have gotten anyone fired. But nope. They didn't. Why? Because he made WWE millions of dollars.

Cena has been used in the same way (protected by how no one could beat him fairly). If Cena didn't bring the WWE revenue, they wouldn't push him like they do.

Arrows just doesn't like Cena. That's why the wrestling business has been dominated by one company 25 out of the last 28 years. We have people arguing about a company who's been successful than their favorite wrestling company.

[SaySo]

They also didn't let Melina in.=.

Wasn't Melina fired... like officially, not part of a storyline.

They have let former WWE people come to the arena. But not days after they are fired.

Plus if it was storyline firing of Melina, does she bring WWE revenue? Last Raw, i didn't hear any "We Want Melina" chants.

[Arrows]

Wait, he needs to win or he's a nobody.

Lashley lost to Cena in his last WWE PPV appearance, was he a nobody afterwards? Why did StrikeForce ink Lashley? Because he was a nobody or a guy high up the card.

To be fair, always saw Lashley as a joke. Ever since he spoke and his voice made him the least threatening man in the world, couldn't take him serious. That said, Lashley went on to do some stuff.

Wasn't really the point I was making. It's like Cena said on RAW, if Punk loses, he failed. Everything he did all of this for? For nothing. All gone, if he can't prove himself tonight. Punk NEEDS this win to solidify himself and his cause as something more than "Villain of the month" material.

If he loses, the push dies. The danger's gone. Cena's still god, and nothing can touch him. Cena only lost because of Vince, Punk's second rate, and why should he even be allowed to show up once he's not holding the belt hostage?

That's his bargaining chip. It's what makes this whole dream reality of a storyline we're living through possible. If he loses, he's got nothing to bank on.

[SaySo]

Not saying kids will often analyze this in-depth but Cena isn't really trying to be a hero or an anti-hero. He barely runs in to save anyone. Even in kayfabe reality, he's no more no less a rebel than Austin except he's not portrayed as a tweener and his moves are not weapons but rituals to show how his perseverance got him to the point of once again winning the title against another annoying heel.

Rock did say Cena was a phoney.

And you are right about Cena not running in to save someone. I remember Cena joining in with Austin in attacking Michael Cole.

Any paragon wouldn't do such a thing, even to an annoying character like Michael Cole.

[Gabbo]

Off the top of my head him attacking JJ Dillon. There were other run ins and attacks during his feud with the Horsemen too.

They also didn't let Melina in. Had she tried to force her way in like Cena must've to be backstage for those assaults, she would've been arrested.

What does that have to do with it? In any way? She got backstage and wasn't put in a cop car. Hence your point falls down.

90% of Sting's career. He is wrestling to make a living. Some big bad comes to try and end his career and disrupt his ability to make a living. He defends himself and stands up to them, proving that believing in yourself and not giving up can over come any odds.

That, is heroic.

Not really, most of Stings feud have had a personal attachment to them, not least the 4 Horsemen feud. How many top faces just wrestle emotionless and passion free. Going through the motions for a paycheck. Very few, all the best ones, Sting included made you feel there was animosity there and that it was much more than just a job.

[SaySo]

To be fair, always saw Lashley as a joke. Ever since he spoke and his voice made him the least threatening man in the world, couldn't take him serious. That said, Lashley went on to do some stuff.

Wasn't really the point I was making. It's like Cena said on RAW, if Punk loses, he failed. Everything he did all of this for? For nothing. All gone, if he can't prove himself tonight. Punk NEEDS this win to solidify himself and his cause as something more than "Villain of the month" material.

If he loses, the push dies. The danger's gone. Cena's still god, and nothing can touch him. Cena only lost because of Vince, Punk's second rate, and why should he even be allowed to show up once he's not holding the belt hostage?

That's his bargaining chip. It's what makes this whole dream reality of a storyline we're living through possible. If he loses, he's got nothing to bank on.

When you heard his voice? It never stopped Mike Tyson from being the baddest man on the planet.

WWE always push their number one guy like this. And when they do lose fair, it's when they are passing the torch. Go back to Hogan, to Austin, now to Cena. Only The Rock seems to be able to lose fair. Then again, i maybe wrong about that.

Austin didn't need to beat Bret Hart at Survivor Series 96, WrestleMania 97, etc. to become the number one guy. CM Punk could very well lose at SummerSlam 11 and still get put over by Stone Cold final match in the WWE in either WM 12 or 13. So you basically want CM Punk to get a John Cena god push so all the fans loving Punk now will turn on him like the Cena fans in 04-05 turned on Cena.

If Punk was a villian of a month, why is he headlining back to back PPVs? Here's an example of villian or flavor of the month = R-Truth.

[Arrows]

Off the top of my head him attacking JJ Dillon. There were other run ins and attacks during his feud with the Horsemen too.



What does that have to do with it? In any way? She got backstage and wasn't put in a cop car. Hence your point falls down. If anything you've strengthened my point by saying she forced her way backstaged and still didn't get arrested.



Not really, most of Stings feud have had a personal attachment to them, not least the 4 Horsemen feud. How many top faces just wrestle emotionless and passion free. Going through the motions for a paycheck. Very few, all the best ones, Sting included made you feel there was animosity there and that it was much more than just a job.

You completely overlook the part where all of that was brought on BY the Horsemen, BY Vader, BY every other heel he battled. Every time it was personal, it was because THEY decided to make it personal. Sting just fought through it to preserve himself and his way of making a living.

Never saw Sting randomly beat up JJ either. That'd be a strike against my point, and I can't remember every single wrestling show ever, so I'll give ya that one.

And Melina? WASN'T allowed backstage. Morrison was also jobbed out cleanly to a complete joke character they have no intentions of pushing because she showed up.

Yea. She was welcome.

[SaySo]

Not really, most of Stings feud have had a personal attachment to them, not least the 4 Horsemen feud. How many top faces just wrestle emotionless and passion free. Going through the motions for a paycheck. Very few, all the best ones, Sting included made you feel there was animosity there and that it was much more than just a job.

What did Sting do from 1999 to 2001? I only remember his feud with Vampiro. Can't remember anything else like "who did he put over?"

[Fantabulous]

Sting attacked JJ Dillon after Dillon threw champagne in his face, so it wasn't unprovoked.

[Arrows]

When you heard his voice? It never stopped Mike Tyson from being the baddest man on the planet.

WWE always push their number one guy like this. And when they do lose fair, it's when they are passing the torch. Go back to Hogan, to Austin, now to Cena. Only The Rock seems to be able to lose fair. Then again, i maybe wrong about that.

Austin didn't need to beat Bret Hart at Survivor Series 96, WrestleMania 97, etc. to become the number one guy. CM Punk could very well lose at SummerSlam 11 and still get put over by Stone Cold final match in the WWE in either WM 12 or 13. So you basically want CM Punk to get a John Cena god push so all the fans loving Punk now will turn on him like the Cena fans in 04-05 turned on Cena.

If Punk was a villian of a month, why is he headlining back to back PPVs? Here's an example of villian or flavor of the month = R-Truth.

Because they need to solidify Cena as the ONLY champ again, and that means Punk/Cena 2?

I don't want Punk to get a god push. I don't like god pushes. I wouldn't even mind if Rey somehow got himself an upset win on RAW, or if Alberto showed up to take it tonight.

You can't have Punk lose clean to Cena right now though. If he does, he has no claim to anything at all, and he vanishes into the mid card.

and Mike Tyson WAS the baddest man on the planet. He would knock you out. Lashley, not so much.

[SaySo]

And Melina? WASN'T allowed backstage. Morrison was also jobbed out cleanly to a complete joke character they have no intentions of pushing because she showed up..

Melina has no value to the WWE. She was future endeavored. So are they suppose to open the door for people they just fired. Name any other business that does it?

It's pretty much a joke watching something in the sake of nitpicking. That's why the WWE doesn't market to people like you because there is nothing they can do to satisfy you. I'm kinda have that mindset with the Los Angeles Lakers and Kobe Bryant. But guess if that suits your ego.

[Arrows]

What did Sting do from 1999 to 2001? I only remember his feud with Vampiro. Can't remember anything else like "who did he put over?"

To be fair, I mentioned pre-96 Sting. After the nWo, the rules changed entirely for Sting, and his hero character went the way of Batman. That said, the only memorable thing Sting did at the end was the Vampiro feud. Really thought Vampiro was on his way up during all of that.

Wasn't that point where Hogan went face, and Sting was "Driving the hummer" or whatever idiocy they were thinking up? It's a bad time for me in wrestling history, to the point where I'd rather watch current Cena than WCW in 2000, so I try to fuzz it all out of my memory.

[SaySo]

Because they need to solidify Cena as the ONLY champ again, and that means Punk/Cena 2?

I don't want Punk to get a god push. I don't like god pushes. I wouldn't even mind if Rey somehow got himself an upset win on RAW, or if Alberto showed up to take it tonight.

You can't have Punk lose clean to Cena right now though. If he does, he has no claim to anything at all, and he vanishes into the mid card.

and Mike Tyson WAS the baddest man on the planet. He would knock you out. Lashley, not so much.

The number one guy in the WWE always get god like pushes. Look at Stone Cold, how did he lost his first title reign? Did he get pinned cleanly? Look at Hogan's first title reign, how did that end, cleanly? It's bound to happen. It's the WWE. This isn't the NWA where heels are put over the faces in their big shows. This isn't ROH where they actually give their talents a decent reign.

I brought up Mike Tyson because you didn't like the sound of Bobby Lashley's voice. So you have a double standard here?

[Arrows]

Melina has no value to the WWE. She was future endeavored. So are they suppose to open the door for people they just fired. Name any other business that does it?

1. I'm actually pretty satisfied with the current WWE product, minus the Tag division, and the fact that R-Truth and Kofi Kingston will NEVER hold the main title of the show they're on because of their race. Kills 2 of the uppercard guys before they even get started.

2. That quote, was my point. Cena'd JUST been "fired". Yet he was backstage. If they didn't LET him in, he broke the law. If ANYONE tried to be backstage without being welcomed, they'd be arrested, cause it's, illegal.

[Fantabulous]

Wasn't that point where Hogan went face, and Sting was "Driving the hummer" or whatever idiocy they were thinking up? It's a bad time for me in wrestling history, to the point where I'd rather watch current Cena than WCW in 2000, so I try to fuzz it all out of my memory.
Hogan went face around the time of the hummer deal, I think. They teased Sting being the driver at least once but I don't think that aspect went anywhere; few things did in WCW at that point. They never did reveal who the driver was for that hummer although in the ill-fated Hogan/Kidman feud (that only hurt Kidman), Biscoff rammed a hummer into Hogan's limo while Hogan was in it, and the insinuation was it was Eric who had long ago been the driver but they never said one way or the other.

[Arrows]

The number one guy in the WWE always get god like pushes. Look at Stone Cold, how did he lost his first title reign? Did he get pinned cleanly? Look at Hogan's first title reign, how did that end, cleanly? It's bound to happen. It's the WWE. This isn't the NWA where heels are put over the faces in their big shows. This isn't ROH where they actually give their talents a decent reign.

I brought up Mike Tyson because you didn't like the sound of Bobby Lashley's voice. So you have a double standard here?

You can't help but take Tyson serious. Tyson could've LOOKED like a 10 year old girl, as long as he was still that powerful, you'd HAVE to take him serious. He was that dominant.

Lashley was a fairly average guy.

The pushes they gave the other main WWE guys also didn't completely devalue the ENTIRE roster. No one on RAW can be taken serious as a title contender except for Punk right now. They've booked them all to be miles beneath Cena.

[SaySo]

1. I'm actually pretty satisfied with the current WWE product, minus the Tag division, and the fact that R-Truth and Kofi Kingston will NEVER hold the main title of the show they're on because of their race. Kills 2 of the uppercard guys before they even get started.

2. That quote, was my point. Cena'd JUST been "fired". Yet he was backstage. If they didn't LET him in, he broke the law. If ANYONE tried to be backstage without being welcomed, they'd be arrested, cause it's, illegal.


Melina has no value to the WWE.

John Cena has value to the WWE.

That's why he was backstage.

Plus Melina was a real future endeavor.

Cena was a storyline future endeavor.

Hence, CM Punk latest storyline. It was a storyline "I'm leaving the WWE and taking the belt with me".

[SaySo]

Lashley was a fairly average guy.

Who is known for his WWE days when he joined StrikeForce.

There was a reason why he was booked as Donald Trump man to wrestle Umaga (who was picked by Vince McMahon).

He was put into that spot the same way the WWE put Brock Lesnar in a top spot in 2002.

Remember how StrikeForce was interested in bringing Batista? If Lashley was a fairly average guy, so is Batista.

[djthefunkchris]

Punk NEEDS the title to not be just another nobody after tonight. If he can't walk out right the belt, he's got nothing.

Wait, he needs to win or he's a nobody.

Lashley lost to Cena in his last WWE PPV appearance, was he a nobody afterwards? Why did StrikeForce ink Lashley? Because he was a nobody or a guy high up the card.
Perhaps he believes everything Cena says... IF you remember, Cena said to Punk "If you lose, your a one time fluke" or something similar. This was exactly what the Internet fans have been saying, and it's obvious Cena did it on purpose. He did it to enrage the Internet Fans, get everyone taking sides, and he's playing the "Heel" for them right now. Bassically, he's ensuring that if CM Punk has a loss, that CM Punk will NOT be a one time fluke, by saying exactly that. The Internet Fans truly believe that if Punk doesn't win, he will slip back down the card and not thought of again, and Cena is playing this perfectly in my opinion. We see it as him being cool, but Cena hater's probably hated hearing him say that, and probably think since he said it, it actually confirms their belief... It's hillarious if you think about it... He's been doing it the whole time Punk has been their "voice".
This is why it's best to ignore stuff like these. If the guy's only point is that you are a Cena hater throwing back mud at him won't make your point much clearer. I haven't said that at all, myself. I've gave him example's, links, etc. I believe I even seen what really bothered him about the situation he's explaining, and low and behold, I believe most of us agree with him. We just don't agree with the things he's brought up as a measure to not like it.
I think a more valid criticism to your comment is how Cena's current character despite turning face is still an extension of a heel who is also a bad rapper that gets constantly poked fun of by both heels and faces. The role message Cena is sending is not that you should do what he does.His message that he gives, over and over and over, is never give up. Not a bad message really..... Don't give up on School, Don't give up on your team, don't give up on life, etc... Can be good for almost any scenario.

Hustle. Loyalty. Respect. If you analyze those words. That's a saying, but his message is still never give up. Part of the reason I imagine the book him in match's so badly most of the time (In my opinion it's bad, not saying everyone thinks that way).

Hustle is a message that you should always persevere in your dreams.

Hustle is notoriously known for working hard at making a living.... It can be translated alot of ways, to include stealing, buying small, selling large, etc... But if I was to compare someone as a Hustler here on this sight, I would say Remi is a Hustler... Adam Ryland is a Hustler. This is the definition he means, and most American Kids would understand this.
Loyalty is a message that you should never forget the ones who supported you through thick and thin and you shouldn't disappoint them or change just because the world seemingly hates you for who you are.You got this one right.:)

Finally, respect is all about doing things with principle. Whether it be to only poke fun at people who try to push your buttons or it's about going dirty only on people who plays dirty.
It's also about respecting your peers, etc... Like when he says he respects CM Punk (even before he become a Face). Like when HHH Said he respects Randy Orton, because Randy stands up and fights like a man, not crying about it like Christian, etc.
None of the message Cena sends as a role model shows that he is suppose to be a paragon. If anything, he's more of a poser character. A man who will do things the way he wants to including wearing things he wants and executing things the way he does regardless whether it wins him a popularity contest.
He's a "Hero", bassically. A "Do-Gooder". He can be Superman or Batman, but he's going for the "Greater Good".
Not saying kids will often analyze this in-depth but Cena isn't really trying to be a hero or an anti-hero. He barely runs in to save anyone. Even in kayfabe reality, he's no more no less a rebel than Austin except he's not portrayed as a tweener and his moves are not weapons but rituals to show how his perseverance got him to the point of once again winning the title against another annoying heel.

Cena has never portrayed being a rebel, at least not in my opinion. Whomever said he was more like The Rock in the corporate thing, and Punk like Austin... I think they nailed what's going on here. I believe that's how it's coming off moreso then anything else anyone has said (including myself). Never thought of that till it was said, whomever said it, Kudos to you for getting me to see the comparison.

Far as children are concerned, most are impressionable. You have to guide them through things, and let them know what is wrong from right. You do that, they will endure. Most children go wrong outside of the "home", not inside (unless their parents are ignoring them to do drugs, deal, etc... and that happens as well). Do as I say, not as I do, works to an extent though, so even in those circumstances you could find halfway decent parents.

I live in a messed up neighborhood, where they will steal from their own neighbor's, even steal from people not doing as well as themselves. It doesn't make much sense, but these kids are taught this by others, not on their own. Myself, I kept my child inside, and I wish I didn't feel I had to... but if his friends wanted to see him, they knew he wasn't allowed past my eyesight... Meaning I let him outside, but he couldn't go far. Now that he's grown, I can see the environment I put him in has worked very well. He's his own "man" now. He's a big guy too, around 6'6", maybe a bit taller. He was never a bully, and stopped bullies in his school from messing with the smaller students. All the teacher's loved him. He had his problems, but he dealt with them well.

All I'm trying to say, and it's mainly to the younger folks on here that might be planning a family.... Is you have to realise that your going to be the biggest influence in your kids life, if you let yourself be. Explain to them the why and why not's, and they will be fine. "Why won't Mom let me go over there? They are nice people!" "She's just being over protective of you, because she loves you so much, it would kill her if something happened to you. I know you know these people, but we don't. The only way we can know how they are is to get to know them, and we will if you think it's that important." "It's like when you wish she would stop smoking, because your worried they will hurt her. It's the same thing really." They understand more then you think.

[Arrows]

Melina has no value to the WWE.

John Cena has value to the WWE.

That's why he was backstage.

Plus Melina was a real future endeavor.

Cena was a storyline future endeavor.

Hence, CM Punk latest storyline. It was a storyline "I'm leaving the WWE and taking the belt with me".

Okay. Now, explain why they let Cena beat up the Nexus(And risk losing workers because of someone NOT under contract) weekly without breaking kayfabe.

[Teh_Showtime]

So Lashley was average size? He used to be in the military not to mention being extremely ripped and 260 pounds of pure muscle. He looked tougher than Tyson tbh.

[Arrows]

So Lashley was average size? He used to be in the military not to mention being extremely ripped and 260 pounds of pure muscle. He looked tougher than Tyson tbh.

In the world of professional wrestling, with guys like Show, Taker, Kane, Cena, Batista, and an endless list more?

Average. He also never completely dominated everything the way Tyson did. He won, what? The ECW title?:rolleyes:

[SaySo]

Perhaps he believes everything Cena says... IF you remember, Cena said to Punk "If you lose, your a one time fluke" or something similar. This was exactly what the Internet fans have been saying, and it's obvious Cena did it on purpose. He did it to enrage the Internet Fans, get everyone taking sides, and he's playing the "Heel" for them right now. Bassically, he's ensuring that if CM Punk has a loss, that CM Punk will NOT be a one time fluke, by saying exactly that. The Internet Fans truly believe that if Punk doesn't win, he will slip back down the card and not thought of again, and Cena is playing this perfectly in my opinion. We see it as him being cool, but Cena hater's probably hated hearing him say that, and probably think since he said it, it actually confirms their belief... It's hillarious if you think about it... He's been doing it the whole time Punk has been their "voice".

Internet fans and the male demographics (teen and above) have always treated John Cena as a heel.

And the WWE never books for the internet fan. If they did that, they would be in the same spot as ROH (if they started listening to the internet fan at the start of the IWC). You book for your audience and the internet fan has quite different taste as a casual fan. Notice when the WWE took out the word "wrestling", did the casual fan react negatively as the internet fan?

I don't think CM Punk will slip down the card. Unless you believe a potential Stone Cold/CM Punk match at WrestleMania is slipping down. This is like majority of people in the IWC reacted to Christian losing his first World Heavyweight Champion to Orton back in April 2011. The reaction you get online is exaggerated. But damn, the WWE drop the ball with Christan. It wasn't like Christian won the title in a ladder match and force to defend it against another Super-Top WWE Face couple days later. If you were a patient internet fan, you could tried to look at the bigger picture. Edge injury change his heel turn and i personally like the route they went.

CM Punk loses at SummerSlam, he's going to be screwed by Triple H. Whoever wins, there will be something flaky about it, which is why they added HHH into the match. If Cena does get pinned cleanly tonight, then kudos because i want to see that personally. But based on the WWE history on booking their number one men, highly unlikely.

[djthefunkchris]

In the world of professional wrestling, with guys like Show, Taker, Kane, Cena, Batista, and an endless list more?

Average. He also never completely dominated everything the way Tyson did. He won, what? The ECW title?:rolleyes:

They were definately setting him up to win the Smackdown Title there for a while. I truly believe he would have eventually. The whole reason they put the ECW title on him in the first place, was to give ECW a good solid Main Event Champion.

His MMA record isn't bad either, 6 and 1 now I believe.

[SaySo]

In the world of professional wrestling, with guys like Show, Taker, Kane, Cena, Batista, and an endless list more?

Average. He also never completely dominated everything the way Tyson did. He won, what? The ECW title?:rolleyes:

Lashley was going to win the WWE title or World Heavyweight Championship. But Michael Hayes conduct in the backstage during 2007 put an end to that.

Lashley had the look. But you put him down base on the way he spoke.

If Mike Tyson was a dominant professional wrestler than a dominant boxer, would you use your analysis on Lashley on Tyson? Based on your "interpretation of a tough guy", Tyson voice sounded like he was below average guy.

And what's to say he gets drafted to SmackDown and dominates their roster in 2008? He definitely had the size McMahon craves. He was far more talented in-ring than a Kozlov and Ezekial Jackson. If he didn't have that appeal, the looks, the amateur background, StrikeForce wouldn't take their chances on him.

Obviously Brock Lesnar was on a higher plateau, to use your words Arrows, he was white.

[Arrows]

And the WWE never books for the internet fan. If they did that, they would be in the same spot as ROH (if they started listening to the internet fan at the start of the IWC). You book for your audience and the internet fan has quite different taste as a casual fan. Notice when the WWE took out the word "wrestling", did the casual fan react negatively as the internet fan?

Agreed. Entirely.

I don't think CM Punk will slip down the card. Unless you believe a potential Stone Cold/CM Punk match at WrestleMania is slipping down. CM Punk loses at SummerSlam, he's going to be screwed by Triple H. Whoever wins, there will be something flaky about it, which is why they added HHH into the match. If Cena does get pinned cleanly tonight, then kudos because i want to see that personally. But based on the WWE history on booking their number one men, highly unlikely.

Yeah, cause not doing anything for Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, and Feb. That's not slipping down the card. Cause after ALL that time doing nothing, you get to wrestle a guy who's not done anything in....how long? Oh boy!

Let's not forget that's nowhere near a confirmed match by any means. It's okay though, cause that one match makes up for having your entire character wrecked again and then going back to doing nothing at all after that match.

[djthefunkchris]

Internet fans and the male demographics (teen and above) have always treated John Cena as a heel.

And the WWE never books for the internet fan. If they did that, they would be in the same spot as ROH (if they started listening to the internet fan at the start of the IWC). You book for your audience and the internet fan has quite different taste as a casual fan. Notice when the WWE took out the word "wrestling", did the casual fan react negatively as the internet fan?

I don't think CM Punk will slip down the card. Unless you believe a potential Stone Cold/CM Punk match at WrestleMania is slipping down. This is like majority of people in the IWC reacted to Christian losing his first World Heavyweight Champion to Orton back in April 2011. The reaction you get online is exaggerated. But damn, the WWE drop the ball with Christan. It wasn't like Christian won the title in a ladder match and force to defend it against another Super-Top WWE Face couple days later. If you were a patient internet fan, you could tried to look at the bigger picture. Edge injury change his heel turn and i personally like the route they went.

CM Punk loses at SummerSlam, he's going to be screwed by Triple H. Whoever wins, there will be something flaky about it, which is why they added HHH into the match. If Cena does get pinned cleanly tonight, then kudos because i want to see that personally. But based on the WWE history on booking their number one men, highly unlikely.

I didn't say that the WWE was booking for the internet fans. I said what Punk and Cena has been saying to each other lately is directed at them, since it's exactly the things the internet fans talk about... Cena mentioned his five moves of doom, his workrate, etc... Punk's been bassically acting as the "Voice" of the Internet fans. This doesn't mean WWE is going to book it for them, but these two guys are intentionally bringing up topics from the internet fans.

Just look at what Arrows said, he believes exactly what Cena said. That's meant for him to believe. He (Cena) has Arrows acting exactly like he wants him to act.

[Arrows]

Lashley was going to win the WWE title or World Heavyweight Championship. But Michael Hayes conduct in the backstage during 2007 put an end to that.

Lashley had the look. But you put him down base on the way he spoke.

If Mike Tyson was a dominant professional wrestler than a dominant boxer, would you use your analysis on Lashley on Tyson? Based on your "interpretation of a tough guy", Tyson voice sounded like he was below average guy.

And what's to say he gets drafted to SmackDown and dominates their roster in 2008? He definitely had the size McMahon craves. He was far more talented in-ring than a Kozlov and Ezekial Jackson. If he didn't have that appeal, the looks, the amateur background, StrikeForce wouldn't take their chances on him.

Obviously Brock Lesnar was on a higher plateau, to use your words Arrows, he was white.

If Tyson was a wrestler, I'd feel the same way I do about Lashley. Tyson beat people up. Tyson WAS the baddest man on the planet. Lashley beat...Umaga...in a wrestling match. Lashley also was NEVER going to win the WWE title.

He might've won the World Title, but he was never going to win the WWE title, because, like you brought up, he's not white.

[Arrows]

They were definately setting him up to win the Smackdown Title there for a while. I truly believe he would have eventually. The whole reason they put the ECW title on him in the first place, was to give ECW a good solid Main Event Champion.

His MMA record isn't bad either, 6 and 1 now I believe.

6-1?

Better than I figured he'd do. Thought he got off to a rockier start than that.

[SaySo]

Yeah, cause not doing anything for Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, and Feb. That's not slipping down the card. Cause after ALL that time doing nothing, you get to wrestle a guy who's not done anything in....how long? Oh boy!

Let's not forget that's nowhere near a confirmed match by any means. It's okay though, cause that one match makes up for having your entire character wrecked again and then going back to doing nothing at all after that match.

It's going to happen. Cena -vs- Rock was once doubted because why would The Rock wrestle when he makes millions doing movies. Well, anything is possible. Stone Cold -vs- CM Punk will happen. Stone Cold just did a season with Tough Enough. From that show, Booker T and Trish have made in-ring wrestling appearance. And Stone Cold -vs- CM Punk have a good background story to play since one is a beer guzzler and the other one is straight edge.

As for CM Punk not doing anything for all those months, can you show me the script?

[Teh_Showtime]

But if he loses then the storyline will continue likely as a feud with HHH. How is that a step down?

[Arrows]

I didn't say that the WWE was booking for the internet fans. I said what Punk and Cena has been saying to each other lately is directed at them, since it's exactly the things the internet fans talk about... Cena mentioned his five moves of doom, his workrate, etc... Punk's been bassically acting as the "Voice" of the Internet fans. This doesn't mean WWE is going to book it for them, but these two guys are intentionally bringing up topics from the internet fans.

Just look at what Arrows said, he believes exactly what Cena said. That's meant for him to believe. He (Cena) has Arrows acting exactly like he wants him to act.

Cena's doing a GREAT job with this feud. The promos these two have had with each other have been brilliant. I believed what I believe before Cena said it, but Cena's right.

[djthefunkchris]

Agreed. Entirely.



Yeah, cause not doing anything for Sept, Oct, Nov, Dec, Jan, and Feb. That's not slipping down the card. Cause after ALL that time doing nothing, you get to wrestle a guy who's not done anything in....how long? Oh boy!

Let's not forget that's nowhere near a confirmed match by any means. It's okay though, cause that one match makes up for having your entire character wrecked again and then going back to doing nothing at all after that match.

He's not going to slip down the card, at least not permanantly. Depends on the PPV buy rates more then likely (this one coming up). It also depends on other factors, such as if someone comes along that is better, and more interesting. If that happens, it will be a good thing though, because CM Punk has cemented his name on people's mind. He's of interest, no matter where he goes on the card, people will know what he's capable of and the interest will always be there. Unless something really screwy happens, he won't be looked at as a one time fluke.

[Fantabulous]

Based on Monday, the obvious assumption is that Triple H costs Punk the match in some fashion, as an outright heel or not, and we start the official build towards Punk/HHH. I mean, the one thing that segment did on Monday was make you want to see that match. Now, whether that is the current plan or it was a swerve to set up something else remains to be seen. Of course, even if that was the direction intended they could always do something else entirely just so they can surprise the people who figured it out.

Punk/HHH wouldn't necessarily be a step backwards or even a lateral move, but it wouldn't be a positive move at all if it just winds up with HHH beating Punk and the feud ending there. If Punk/HHH do have a feud or a continued interaction, how that plays out will be the clearest indication of whether Punk is someone they want as a top player or is just a glorified Heel of the Month getting a few extra months of air time.

[Arrows]

It's going to happen. Cena -vs- Rock was once doubted because why would The Rock wrestle when he makes millions doing movies. Well, anything is possible. Stone Cold -vs- CM Punk will happen. Stone Cold just did a season with Tough Enough. From that show, Booker T and Trish have made in-ring wrestling appearance. And Stone Cold -vs- CM Punk have a good background story to play since one is a beer guzzler and the other one is straight edge.

As for CM Punk not doing anything for all those months, can you show me the script?

You DO realize, Miz/Austin have the start to a feud set up, yea? The plan was for Miz vs. Austin, not Punk vs. Austin. Who says it's gonna be Punk's spot?

[Fantabulous]

There's no plan for Austin doing anything right now. And even if there was, it's going to change a million times between now and the event itself.

[SaySo]

If Tyson was a wrestler, I'd feel the same way I do about Lashley. Tyson beat people up. Tyson WAS the baddest man on the planet. Lashley beat...Umaga...in a wrestling match. Lashley also was NEVER going to win the WWE title.

He might've won the World Title, but he was never going to win the WWE title, because, like you brought up, he's not white.

If he wasn't going to win the title, did Cena squash him in their PPV match? When Cena DVD comes out, i bet that match is on it.

And damnit dude, Umaga was one of my favorite and rest his soul. At least Umaga got to main event shows and have entertaining matches with Cena and Jeff Hardy of all people.

Put Lashley up to Tyson without knowledge of their "FABLED careers", people will think Lashley will kick Tyson all over that ring. Just by looks, not Tyson dominant boxing career.

Then have them speak, Lashley will win again because Tyson sounds like Michael Jackson backup singer.

[SaySo]

You DO realize, Miz/Austin have the start to a feud set up, yea? The plan was for Miz vs. Austin, not Punk vs. Austin. Who says it's gonna be Punk's spot?

That could be the case. But I'll put a bet right now that it will be Austin / CM Punk. It's a match i want to see. I'm sure there are other people like me.

As for the Miz, Austin would choose Punk over Miz in a return bout. Maybe they can get Miz to fight The Situation or something.

[Arrows]

If he wasn't going to win the title, did Cena squash him in their PPV match? When Cena DVD comes out, i bet that match is on it.

And damnit dude, Umaga was one of my favorite and rest his soul. At least Umaga got to main event shows and have entertaining matches with Cena and Jeff Hardy of all people.

Put Lashley up to Tyson without knowledge of their "FABLED careers", people will think Lashley will kick Tyson all over that ring. Just by looks, not Tyson dominant boxing career.

Then have them speak, Lashley will win again because Tyson sounds like Michael Jackson backup singer.

Agreed, all around. Now, let's stick em in a parking lot in their primes.

Lashley'll be on the ground.

[Fantabulous]

If I'm putting money on what WWE want, it's Miz/Austin.

[djthefunkchris]

Cena's doing a GREAT job with this feud. The promos these two have had with each other have been brilliant. I believed what I believe before Cena said it, but Cena's right.

That's my point.... I've seen everything he said stated before as if it were a fact. This is his way of enticing, making the Internet fans think they are right, etc.

The truth of the matter is this though, Cena wouldn't have said it if he actually thought it was right. He wouldn't do that on purpose to anyone if he actually thought they were in that position. He (and Punk) are using that platform to create more static, more friction, etc. It only hypes the match up for tonight (the goal is to sell).

The fact that Cena said your fear, should probably be a comfort that it will NOT happen. In all reality, Cena could win, only to have Mysterio beat him Monday (because of injuries "kafabe" from tonight), and Punk get his re-match with Mysterio, and we will be right back where we are now.

It's not going to happen that way, because I'm not six, lol.

[SaySo]

If I'm putting money on what WWE want, it's Miz/Austin.

Yeah, if HHH/CM Punk is going to happen, then that would be the next choice.

If CM Punk/Austin happens, Situation -vs- Miz will be my pick.

[Arrows]

That's my point.... I've seen everything he said stated before as if it were a fact. This is his way of enticing, making the Internet fans think they are right, etc.

The truth of the matter is this though, Cena wouldn't have said it if he actually thought it was right. He wouldn't do that on purpose to anyone if he actually thought they were in that position. He (and Punk) are using that platform to create more static, more friction, etc. It only hypes the match up for tonight (the goal is to sell).

The fact that Cena said your fear, should probably be a comfort that it will NOT happen. In all reality, Cena could win, only to have Mysterio beat him Monday (because of injuries "kafabe" from tonight), and Punk get his re-match with Mysterio, and we will be right back where we are now.

It's not going to happen that way, because I'm not six, lol.

Every time Cena gets in the ring and beats someone in five moves, he does that to the other person. He knows 90% of the people he's wrestling are never going to be taken serious afterwards. The burial still happens. What's he gonna do, NOT bury Punk and get management pissed at him?

Cena also doesn't have Kayfabe injuries. He instantly heals the second he hits a shoulder block. He even no sold a REAL f'n injury to show up months early and win the Royal Rumble.

[SaySo]

Agreed, all around. Now, let's stick em in a parking lot in their primes.

Lashley'll be on the ground.

So would Austin, Cena, and any immortal force in sports entertainment.

[djthefunkchris]

If he wasn't going to win the title, did Cena squash him in their PPV match? When Cena DVD comes out, i bet that match is on it.

And damnit dude, Umaga was one of my favorite and rest his soul. At least Umaga got to main event shows and have entertaining matches with Cena and Jeff Hardy of all people.

Put Lashley up to Tyson without knowledge of their "FABLED careers", people will think Lashley will kick Tyson all over that ring. Just by looks, not Tyson dominant boxing career.

Then have them speak, Lashley will win again because Tyson sounds like Michael Jackson backup singer.

Your being totally ludicrous.

[SaySo]

Every time Cena gets in the ring and beats someone in five moves, he does that to the other person. He knows 90% of the people he's wrestling are never going to be taken serious afterwards. The burial still happens. What's he gonna do, NOT bury Punk and get management pissed at him?

Cena also doesn't have Kayfabe injuries. He instantly heals the second he hits a shoulder block. He even no sold a REAL f'n injury to show up months early and win the Royal Rumble.

Cena admits to playing a super hero in TV. It's not like he's playing Samuel L. Jackson character in Unbreakable. He's the Bruce Willis character.

Well, you can call the five moves = signature moves. Did you know, one of Austin five moves was a middle finger then a stunner.

[Fantabulous]

So would Austin, Cena, and any immortal force in sports entertainment.

Except Scott Hall's contract.

[Arrows]

So would Austin, Cena, and any immortal force in sports entertainment.

And that's why I take Tyson serious, and never did Lashley. Tyson was, yanno.

Real.

[Arrows]

Cena admits to playing a super hero in TV. It's not like he's playing Samuel L. Jackson character in Unbreakable. He's the Bruce Willis character.

Well, you can call the five moves = signature moves. Did you know, one of Austin five moves was a middle finger then a stunner.

The difference between everyone else's five moves and Cena's five moves:

Everyone else: Uses the five moves to END the match.

Cena: (Until recently) ONLY uses five moves the ENTIRE match.

[djthefunkchris]

Every time Cena gets in the ring and beats someone in five moves, he does that to the other person. He knows 90% of the people he's wrestling are never going to be taken serious afterwards. The burial still happens. What's he gonna do, NOT bury Punk and get management pissed at him?

Cena also doesn't have Kayfabe injuries. He instantly heals the second he hits a shoulder block. He even no sold a REAL f'n injury to show up months early and win the Royal Rumble.

Kind of makes the "kafabe" injuries look more real, although I never thought about that before.

You already know my stance about his match's... but these guys are not burried. He's beaten PUNK himself this way before. He's beat several guys that were Main Eventers, and still are. Heck, he's done worse, he's done it to two or three at time (although the third guy fell off). It didn't hurt their status, didn't make them any less of a threat. Edge, Kane, Big Show, Angle, Mysterio, Jericho, the list goes on and on... The match did NOT hurt them, and they didn't slip into the midcard for it. Get that fear out of your system. IF someone slips down, it's because they aren't getting over (their fault), or someone in the back don't like them...

From what I've heard, Punk's just about being worshipped in the back, right now. Everyone is "High" on him, and there are people taking notes (meaning, other's are wanting to follow in his footsteps). This is a good thing, I feel.

[SaySo]

The difference between everyone else's five moves and Cena's five moves:

Everyone else: Uses the five moves to END the match.

Cena: (Until recently) ONLY uses five moves the ENTIRE match.

Can you list me Stone Cold move set in 1998. Lou Thesz Press, Suplex, Punch, Mudhole stomp, Stone Cold Stunner...okay, he used six, the middle finger. Okay i may have missed something but on average, you'll see all six of that in a match.

To add on losing to John Cena and how it sends them back down in the card, how's Randy Orton doing? Orton lost a zillion matches to Cena and even Triple H. Look at his reaction at MITB, second only to CM Punk that night.

[Teh_Showtime]

Not to mention Punk's new creative pull, he won't slip down that easily.

[Arrows]

You already know my stance about his match's... but these guys are not burried. He's beaten PUNK himself this way before. He's beat several guys that were Main Eventers, and still are. Heck, he's done worse, he's done it to two or three at time (although the third guy fell off). It didn't hurt their status, didn't make them any less of a threat. Edge, Kane, Big Show, Angle, Mysterio, Jericho, the list goes on and on... The match did NOT hurt them, and they didn't slip into the midcard for it. Get that fear out of your system. IF someone slips down, it's because they aren't getting over (their fault), or someone in the back don't like them...

Because you left him off, I'm gonna go with it.

The Miz: Worked as hard as he possibly could. Got 100% better on the stick. Decent in ring worker. Solid by WWE standards. Fans were eating out of the palm of his hand. the AWFUL~! chant proved that. Got his push. YAY! CHAMPION! Insert John Cena. Where's Miz now?

Oh.

Losing to midcarders.

[Fantabulous]

To add on losing to John Cena and how it sends them back down in the card, how's Randy Orton doing? Orton lost a zillion matches to Cena and even Triple H. Look at his reaction at MITB, second only to CM Punk that night.
To be fair, they were also treated in the booking, before and after, as top guys and so stayed on top.

It's not the losing to Cena that sends people down to the midcard. It's the booking of them before and after.

[SaySo]

To be fair, they were also treated in the booking, before and after, as top guys and so stayed on top.

It's not the losing to Cena that sends people down to the midcard. It's the booking of them before and after.

True. The booking team needs to invest the time and effort to these guys. Guess two examples could be:

Positive--> Sheamus
Negative--> Swagger

Sheamus had his downs at the start of the year with a mini-losing streak but he's picked it back up.

Swagger on the other hand, smh, he's competing with Samoe Joe for losing streak of the year.

[Fantabulous]

What the heck has Jack Swagger been doing for the last year and a half?

[Hashasheen]

What the heck has Jack Swagger been doing for the last year and a half?

WWE Superstars.

[SaySo]

What the heck has Jack Swagger been doing for the last year and a half?

He had a feud with Evan Borne recently that amounted with Borne picking up victories.

Losing to Cena.

That's the only two things i can recall right now. Maybe more. Hopefully someone can elaborate and remind us.

[SaySo]

WWE Superstars.

He needs to challenge Zack Ryder for the internet championship since Superstars is on WWE.com

[Arrows]

He had a feud with Evan Borne recently that amounted with Borne picking up victories.

Losing to Cena.

That's the only two things i can recall right now. Maybe more. Hopefully someone can elaborate and remind us.

The idiocy with Cole against Lawler.

[SaySo]

The idiocy with Cole against Lawler.

Damn. There was a reason why i wanted to forget that.

I hope they edited that clusterfrak out of Wrestlemania 27 DVD.

[djthefunkchris]

Because you left him off, I'm gonna go with it.

The Miz: Worked as hard as he possibly could. Got 100% better on the stick. Decent in ring worker. Solid by WWE standards. Fans were eating out of the palm of his hand. the AWFUL~! chant proved that. Got his push. YAY! CHAMPION! Insert John Cena. Where's Miz now?

Oh.

Losing to midcarders.

The Miz is probably the second most visable character outside the ropes, besides Cena. They have him all over the place. He's being groomed for something, and it's obvious. His loss didn't hurt him at all, the current status of other's (CM Punk mainly) is why he isn't right there. Punk surpassed him with one promo, and that's why Miz isn't there... but he's still EVERYWHERE else. Bad example if you ask me.

Swagger was probably the best example, but Cena isn't why he's where he is either. His problem is that he's boring, and pretty much that horrid Cole thing, is the height of his carreer, really... Because no one really took notice of his title victories.

[Arrows]

The Miz is probably the second most visable character outside the ropes, besides Cena. They have him all over the place. He's being groomed for something, and it's obvious. His loss didn't hurt him at all, the current status of other's (CM Punk mainly) is why he isn't right there. Punk surpassed him with one promo, and that's why Miz isn't there... but he's still EVERYWHERE else. Bad example if you ask me.

Swagger was probably the best example, but Cena isn't why he's where he is either. His problem is that he's boring, and pretty much that horrid Cole thing, is the height of his carreer, really... Because no one really took notice of his title victories.

Thus, why I didn't mention Swagger, and went with Miz, who's jobbing to Riley. Which, baffles me.

[Teh_Showtime]

He beat Riley clean in the WWE title tourney, their feud is over. He was just in the WWE tourney finals and just beat Kofi clean. It's 100% natural to drop a bit after losing the title. Miz is back up

[djthefunkchris]

To be honest, if I were Cena I would put some stuff into my Titantron...

Like "SUPER CENA!", and even have a superman outfit on, with a big "HLR" in the chest instead of an "S". Every now and then flash the words "Workrate is over rated".

Then I would have a rap about my five moves of doom. I would even use it in my promo's... "NO ONE CAN WITHSTAND MY FIVE MOVES OF DOOM!!"
Perhaps something like:

"They say John Cena, is over rated,
I say what's over rated is work related.
You have good work rate, you say I don't?
I have the five knuckle shuffle that rocks this joint!
They call me Super-Cena, ya better make room.
No one can stand up to my five moves of doom!

My time is here, My time is now..."

[Teh_Showtime]

that's going too far. But fact of the matter is that Cena has been increasing his workrate. I hope they don't address it much more though.

[The Shape]

Thus, why I didn't mention Swagger, and went with Miz, who's jobbing to Riley. Which, baffles me.

Miz is at a stage where he can afford to put over a guy for a while and not get hurt at all by it.

[Arrows]

Miz is at a stage where he can afford to put over a guy for a while and not get hurt at all by it.

So he puts over the corniest, least interesting person on RAW?

[benjacko]

Hasn't Riley been getting a good response from the fans?

[Teh_Showtime]

So he puts over the corniest, least interesting person on RAW?

It was part of the breaking up storyline. He has only loss 1 time since MITB and his wins are all clean.

[Moe Hunter]

It's not unlike the guy in the Kenny Roger's song, "Promise me son, not to do the things I done. Walk away from trouble when you can. Now it won't mean your weak, if you turn the other cheek...." The problem is he never gets to the last line "I promised you dad, not to do the things you've done. I walk away from trouble when I can. Now please don't think I'm weak, I can't turn the other cheek. I sure hope you understand..." He never gets there. Nothing upsets him.

So what you're saying is we need to have the Gatlin boys come callin', and take turns with Becky? (And there were three of them).

They didn't put Melina in a cop car when she did it last week.
Melina beat up the Nexus last week?

You DO realize, Miz/Austin have the start to a feud set up, yea? The plan was for Miz vs. Austin, not Punk vs. Austin. Who says it's gonna be Punk's spot?
Where did Miz start a feud with Austin?
CM Punk and Austin have been feuding on Twitter, especially around the release of WWE All Stars.
They had a confrontation on Raw.
Austin recently said in an interview that *if* he were to come back, the *one* guy he would want to wrestle is... CM Punk. Not Miz.

[Arrows]

So what you're saying is we need to have the Gatlin boys come callin', and take turns with Becky? (And there were three of them).


Melina beat up the Nexus last week?


Where did Miz start a feud with Austin?
CM Punk and Austin have been feuding on Twitter, especially around the release of WWE All Stars.
They had a confrontation on Raw.
Austin recently said in an interview that *if* he were to come back, the *one* guy he would want to wrestle is... CM Punk. Not Miz.

The Tough Enough introduction?

Where Miz got in Austin's face and challenged him to a match and the tough enough noobs left the ring before Austin got 2 on 1d?

[Hashasheen]

On Austin versus Miz and Austin versus Punk:

There doesn't seem to be any indication that Austin's interested in facing Miz in a match, despite the WWE teasing the hell out of it and most likely begging him backstage to put over Miz.

Punk and Austin on the other hand have gotten along incredibly well from what reports indicate, and Austin said he'd wrestle Punk if he came back.

In situations like this, the WWE continues to need Austin more than Austin needs the WWE.

[jwt13]

Ths feels like a 3 hour Raw not WWE's second biggest PPV of the year

[Teh_Showtime]

Dark: Ziggler defeated Riley

Rey/Kofi/JoMo d Miz/Truth/ADR

2 Sheamvs vs Henry.

Sheamus can make a broomstick look decent. First Kahli now Henry...

[Teh_Showtime]

Henry wins via count out after a nice spot with the barrier. Best match Henry has had probably ever.

[jwt13]

Really WWE? Really Celo taking up around 10-15 min?

[supershot]

Ya sheamus vs henry was pretty decent. ThAt dude that got sent flying during the barricade spot made the match imo :)

[Bull]

Henry wins via count out after a nice spot with the barrier. Best match Henry has had probably ever.

Have to agree. Sheamus Made Henry look alot better than I thought he would.

[jwt13]

It was a very good match.

[Arrows]

Why do they constantly book crappy entertainers who fail EVERY single time?

[supershot]

Why do they constantly book crappy entertainers who fail EVERY single time?

No offense but what do you like? You hate everything.

[Arrows]

Cups:

Cena, Rock

Austin, Miz

*Cough*

[Arrows]

No offense but what do you like? You hate everything.

During a WRESTLING event?

Wrestling.

Nattie!<3

[supershot]

If i were you i would find something new to watch man

[Teh_Showtime]

You forgot the part where SCSA said he would work with Punk if he had another match

[jwt13]

During a WRESTLING event?

Wrestling.

Nattie!<3

This is Sports Entertainment not Wrestling so I see no problem with it. I just dont like Celo the T-Rex

[Teh_Showtime]

There is always ROH, and Wrestling matters in TNA...

[Arrows]

This is Sports Entertainment not Wrestling so I see no problem with it. I just dont like Celo the T-Rex

If it was something in ANY way relevant to the event? Fine.

Event theme song, wrestler's theme song, national anthem. Those don't bug me, but random songs that have NOTHING to do with anything?...Groan.

[Teh_Showtime]

3: Beth vs Kelly

[supershot]

Ya in all honesty it was pretty bad and anoyingly long

[Arrows]

Solid Diva's match. Had the ending figured, glad they went that way.

[jwt13]

Its Little Jimmy!

[Teh_Showtime]

Kelly beat Beth... surprise right there

[supershot]

Man r truth needs a world title runs. Hes been solid gold lately.

[Arrows]

Kelly beat Beth... surprise right there

Made sense. Now it's not Beth/Nattie > Everyone Else match wise. They needed to put Kelly Kelly on somewhat even ground.

[Teh_Showtime]

4: Barrett vs Bryan

[supershot]

Damn barret beats bryan clean

[Teh_Showtime]

Wade goes over clean. False finish when Barrett had the ropes durcng LeBell lock

[Arrows]

Alright.

Bids opening now for how many times it takes to break the Spanish Announce Table tonight.

[supershot]

I have a sick feeling randy wins