The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[20LEgend]

Because he's confident in winning... and it was obviously the compromise. "I'll accept your stip if you accept mine"


Yeah, but it was not even thought he just said yeah, I don't think anyone would do that. I just thought the boss can do what he wants.

[OldStingberg]

JRsBBQ @JoeyStyles my on air bickering days w/ Cole ended Mon Nite. I'm tapping w/ my end of unnecessary psycho babble. I'll focus on the talent.

Please let this be true. Cole is fine enough as a straight PBP guy, but he makes a terrible heel. The idea of a heel PBP guy is bad enough, but with Cole's nonsensical and disruptive comments, it just turns the whole booth, no matter who he's with, into a complete train wreck. Hopefully a legend like JR can re-focus and do his best to try and navigate around that wreck.

[Fantabulous]

Triple H putting up his COO position might mean something if he hadn't only just got the spot and, you know, stips meaning zilch in WWE.

[djthefunkchris]

Triple H putting up his COO position might mean something if he hadn't only just got the spot and, you know, stips meaning zilch in WWE.

The interesting thing will be "Who is in charge after CM Punk wins?"

[OldStingberg]

I think it's far too soon for another "who's in charge?" story, so I'm not too keen on Punk winning. But it would be a disaster if he loses clean. So to me, I guess, the only thing that makes sense is Triple H winning via some sort of shenanigans. And I hope and pray those shenanigans involve a dramatic heel turn, ideally by Cena, but I'd accept a Triple H heel turn at this point. If Punk doesn't come out of NoC with a more appropriate foe than Kevin Nash or a face Triple H, I'm going to be incredibly disappointed.

[Fantabulous]

I think it's far too soon for another "who's in charge?" story, so I'm not too keen on Punk winning. But it would be a disaster if he loses clean. So to me, I guess, the only thing that makes sense is Triple H winning via some sort of shenanigans. And I hope and pray those shenanigans involve a dramatic heel turn, ideally by Cena, but I'd accept a Triple H heel turn at this point. If Punk doesn't come out of NoC with a more appropriate foe than Kevin Nash or a face Triple H, I'm going to be incredibly disappointed.

I presume Nash costs Punk the match to set up Punk vs. Nash in a manner which may or may not set up Triple H going heel.

[OldStingberg]

I presume Nash costs Punk the match to set up Punk vs. Nash in a manner which may or may not set up Triple H going heel.

If Nash interferes and Trips doesn't turn heel, that's pretty much my worst-case scenario (other than Punk losing clean, of course, but that won't happen). I just don't see Punk regaining his momentum working a program against just Nash.

[matthew222]

After thinking about it.

I would love it if If this feud with Lawler vs Otunga and Micheal will lead 2 him Turning heel and being the manager of them. Will get him away from the announcing table lol

[ZMAN]

The interesting thing will be "Who is in charge after CM Punk wins?"

That's what doesn't make sense to me, is why Punk wasn't more specific with his stipulation. If you're in Punk's shoes wouldn't you say "If you lose, I want so-and-so to run the company because he's a better leader." Just seems like in a realistic scenario where if HHH gets fired, then Stephanie, Vince, or John would step up into the role. Those three are probably worse than HHH.

[soxfan93]

That's what doesn't make sense to me, is why Punk wasn't more specific with his stipulation. If you're in Punk's shoes wouldn't you say "If you lose, I want so-and-so to run the company because he's a better leader." Just seems like in a realistic scenario where if HHH gets fired, then Stephanie, Vince, or John would step up into the role. Those three are probably worse than HHH.

This, coupled with the fact that Triple H just took over makes it painfully obvious that Punk's getting screwed and Triple H is turning heel. Punk vs. HHH = Austin vs. McMahon, only better because Trips can go in the ring.

[Fantabulous]

Kevin Nash has been released. Or it might be a 'release', ie: pure storyline.

[ZMAN]

omfg, nu Yoshi:

http://cdn.sescoops.com/wp-content/uploads/843.jpg

[Fantabulous]

omfg, nu Yoshi:

http://cdn.sescoops.com/wp-content/uploads/843.jpg

It's a cool look and it definitely makes him stand out, which is key. Whether it does him any good, well, it probably won't.

[Jaysin]

omfg, nu Yoshi:

http://cdn.sescoops.com/wp-content/uploads/843.jpg

So bad ass...I love it

[OldStingberg]

This, coupled with the fact that Triple H just took over makes it painfully obvious that Punk's getting screwed and Triple H is turning heel. Punk vs. HHH = Austin vs. McMahon, only better because Trips can go in the ring.

And two months ago I think it would have been safe to say with how white-hot the Punk/Cena feud was, it was painfully obvious there'd be no way they'd rush that feud to an unsatisfying conclusion before completely moving on, but look what happened.

With how insanely great WWE creative has been at times lately and how unbelievably bad they've also been, I don't think anything can be painfully obvious at this point.

[Fantabulous]

And two months ago I think it would have been safe to say with how white-hot the Punk/Cena feud was, it was painfully obvious there'd be no way they'd rush that feud to an unsatisfying conclusion before completely moving on, but look what happened.

And with many examples of this, it really is baffling that some people still cling to the "Wait and see where it goes" mantra.

[Teh_Showtime]

yeah we shouldn't be getting this match so soon. Let alone a stip as huge as HHH having to step down.

In a perfect World Nash causes Punk his match at NoC in a triple threat. But no time for what ifs

[Tha Black Phenom]

And with many examples of this, it really is baffling that some people still cling to the "Wait and see where it goes" mantra.

Really, huh.. cause I recall when Punk first announced he was gonna leave with the WWE championship, and it was assured he would be quitting, people implored that WWE would be idiots if they didn't keep Punk strapped to them. Cue to two weeks after MITB, Punk returns and people bitch that he was brought back too soon. There's so many other storylines out there which this applies to.

And earlier on you bring up the Christian/Orton example, Christian ending up as a glorified jobber to Orton over the summer. Because that's a bad thing all of a sudden? Many people on the roster would sweat tears to be that 'glorified jobber' if it meant main-eventing your brand over the course of the whole summer. Right now Christian's much higher than he used to be preceding that whole angle. He rode Orton's coattails and made profit off it with his talent.

The wait and see mantra works. Just not all the time. But for now I'd rather go by that every now and then than persecuting weekly shows and judging what "should make sense" and what "should happen" afterwards, when we have no clue of 1/10th of the storyline they're concocting. Not to say they'll deliver every time, or even most of the time.. but I just don't want to jump the gun all that much anymore. I.E saying what the perfect world would entail when the storyline's not even over. That's just me though, I know many feel comfortable doing what they're doing and I respect that.

[OldStingberg]

And earlier on you bring up the Christian/Orton example, Christian ending up as a glorified jobber to Orton over the summer. Because that's a bad thing all of a sudden?

When the WWE has two legitimate stars, yes, that's a bad thing. They should be creating new stars. And using some of their most talented workers as glorified jobbers for one of their two stars before shuffling them back off to the midcard isn't the way to create stars.

[soxfan93]

When the WWE has two legitimate stars, yes, that's a bad thing. They should be creating new stars. And using some of their most talented workers as glorified jobbers for one of their two stars before shuffling them back off to the midcard isn't the way to create stars.

Define "legitimate stars". Being the WWE or World Heavyweight Champion isn't the only thing that makes you a legitimate star. CM Punk became a true superstar, on par with Cena and Orton, simply by cutting a couple of promos. At the very least, you need to add him. The Miz is up there, as well, with all of his promotional work, and Zack Ryder (yeah, I said it) is one of the most over WWE employees right now.

Depending on the criteria you're using for a "legitimate star," there is either Cena, or a group of 5 or more.

[Teh_Showtime]

A legit star is different than a top star.

Top stars are Cena, Orton, Punk

but to say anyone outside of them aren't legit is crazy. Sheamus, Miz, ADR, and Rey just got hurt. All of them are credible

[soxfan93]

A legit star is different than a top star.

Top stars are Cena, Orton, Punk

but to say anyone outside of them aren't legit is crazy. Sheamus, Miz, ADR, and Rey just got hurt. All of them are credible

Exactly. There are far more "legitimate stars" than just Cena and Orton.

[OldStingberg]

By legitimate I mean guys that have main event level heat right now, guys that can legitimately carry a main event program. That's Cena and Orton right now. That's it.

Punk is close, and I'd say for about a month there he was at that level. But pretty much everything since MitB has killed his momentum and knocked him down a step.

I think the WWE has a lot of potential stars. Punk, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Miz, Christian, even Dolph Ziggler in my opinion. But those guys aren't going to ever reach Cena or Orton's level if the best opportunity they get is to be Cena or Orton's foe du jour.

[supershot]

By legitimate I mean guys that have main event level heat right now, guys that can legitimately carry a main event program. That's Cena and Orton right now. That's it.

Punk is close, and I'd say for about a month there he was at that level. But pretty much everything since MitB has killed his momentum and knocked him down a step.

I think the WWE has a lot of potential stars. Punk, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Miz, Christian, even Dolph Ziggler in my opinion. But those guys aren't going to ever reach Cena or Orton's level if the best opportunity they get is to be Cena or Orton's foe du jour.

I respectfully disagree. Punk is being featured in the main program right now. So far hes got the best of Cena on a number of occasions. and going into a match with the "COO". IMO hes definitely in that list.

[OldStingberg]

I respectfully disagree. Punk is being featured in the main program right now. So far hes got the best of Cena on a number of occasions. and going into a match with the "COO". IMO hes definitely in that list.

Punk has two tainted wins over Cena and one tainted loss. And now he's in a main program that is almost universally being criticized, and it's a program that's not given him a good opponent to draw heat off of yet. As a result, he's losing his momentum and the reactions he's getting from crowds have been going down. Seriously, in their encounter two weeks ago, HHH got the crowd to pop louder in support of Vince McMahon than Punk was able to get for anything.

Punk's certainly the closest the WWE has to Cena and Orton, but he's not quite there yet, and the past month has done him no favors.

[Teh_Showtime]

Punk gets double if not TRIPLE the TV time Cena gets recently A 20 min segment on SD and Multiple segments on Raw.
Cena has the last 10 minutes and overrun as of late. Punk is carrying Raw right now

[soxfan93]

Punk gets double if not TRIPLE the TV time Cena gets recently A 20 min segment on SD and Multiple segments on Raw.
Cena has the last 10 minutes and overrun as of late. Punk is carrying Raw right now

And have you noticed that ratings are down in the second hour? Punk typically isn't on in the second hour, Cena is. So, right now, Punk is drawing better ratings.

[OldStingberg]

Punk gets double if not TRIPLE the TV time Cena gets recently A 20 min segment on SD and Multiple segments on Raw.
Cena has the last 10 minutes and overrun as of late. Punk is carrying Raw right now

A Raw that has been getting insanely criticized recently. 10 minutes of good would do a lot more for Punk than 30 minutes of bad.

And have you noticed that ratings are down in the second hour? Punk typically isn't on in the second hour, Cena is. So, right now, Punk is drawing better ratings.

Or the segments Punk is in are so bad that people are just tuning out.

To be honest, I don't really see your guys' argument here. Punk has been drawing noticeably less crowd heat lately, and it's certainly and undoubtedly less heat than Cena or Orton draws. You can try and finagle ratings numbers or TV times all you want, but the heat just can't be ignored. You can argue causes for it, whose fault it is, if or how it's fixable, any number of things, but you can't argue that it's not happening.

[Teh_Showtime]

Im not debating the quality, but he sure is getting the TV time of a top guy. Orton doesn't even get as much time on SD

[OldStingberg]

Im not debating the quality, but he sure is getting the TV time of a top guy. Orton doesn't even get as much time on SD

That's true. I think the WWE is definitely trying to get Punk up to that top level. They're giving his storyline a high profile and a lot of time. I just think they've totally and completely mishandled his storyline. And I worry that if they don't improve it, in six months Punk will find himself back down the card teaming up with someone like Justin Gabriel in another attempt to revive the tag team division.

[mike b]

WWE lets Nash go

http://www.wwe.com/inside/kevin-nash-released

I know another person mentioned this a a few threads ago but i am thinking its true.

But if true why.

[Jaysin]

WWE lets Nash go

http://www.wwe.com/inside/kevin-nash-released

I know another person mentioned this a a few threads ago but i am thinking its true.

But if true why.

I doubt its true. Especially with Johnny Ace being "Mr Future Endeavor" or whatever they copyrighted for him and him getting into the car with Nash after Nash got "fired".

[Zeel1]

Yeah, it's an obvious work. Kinda cool how they're announcing it like it's an actual release, though. From what I've heard, Nash is even trying to tell people it's legit, although no one's buying it.

Reality Era at work~

[djthefunkchris]

A Raw that has been getting insanely criticized recently. 10 minutes of good would do a lot more for Punk than 30 minutes of bad.

Who is doing all this insane critique?

[Stennick]

I'm pretty sure the Nash thing is legit.

Nash stated himself that he passed the physical just fine so it wasn't a failed physical. We get weeks of Nash/Punk buildup only for that to go away. I think its clear it was supposed to be Nash/Punk at NOC. Then something happened and they quickly aborted that part of the storyline. First by putting HHH in his spot and secondly but having it revealed in very quick fashion that Nash sent the text to himself before he got fired.

Simply pushed they rushed the hell out of this Nash storyline to tie it up. Nash has just signed a very nice legends deal. Its said to be the highest paying legends deal out of anyone with one. However legends deals don't have anything to do with on air talent. Thats a separate issue. Much like when Finlay was a road agent and a performer he had to be paid for the two.

Nash said they couldn't come to terms on a financial agreement and he's recently gotten a big role in an upcoming movie.

I'm 99 percent sure this is legit after a few weeks we'll know for sure. If he doesn't show up at Night of Champion's I'd say its legit.

[Fantabulous]

I love the idea that people take anything Nash says on Twitter as serious.

[Stennick]

I love the idea that people take anything Nash says on Twitter as serious.

I love the idea that people are so afraid of being "WURKED" by professional wrestling that they believe everything is fake no matter the evidence supported otherwise.

[Fantabulous]

What Nash says on Twitter, among other places, would have a tad more credibility if he hadn't sworn up and down he wasn't going to TNA right up until he showed up in TNA. That, and most of what wrestlers, especially those in WWE, say is worked. But they, these are just the facts. You might use something else to form your opinion.

[Zeel1]

I love the idea that people are so afraid of being "WURKED" by professional wrestling that they believe everything is fake no matter the evidence supported otherwise.

You have to consider the source here. First off, it's twitter. It's not exactly the appropriate place for official announcements.

Secondly... it's Nash. He could be saying "I need oxygen to breathe" and people would think he's lying. :D

[Stennick]

and most of what wrestlers, especially those in WWE, say is worked. But they, these are just the facts. You might use something else to form your opinion.

So which wrestlers have you chatted up about this? Have you and Santino had a sit down? You and Drew text it out? You and the All American American have dinner over this news?

Whats that? You haven't actually spoken to anyone that would know anything about this? Thats weird, you stated it like that was some sort of fact. You know the ones you implied I didn't have.

So let me see if I can get this straight. Nash's twitter and WWE.com are not legitimate sources for this news. You know the company that fired him and the guy that was fired. Or "released". But wrestlers who have in the past not known which show they were going to be working on the very next night would know whats going on with the top angle in that same company?

I'm speculating you got your news from the Wrestling Observer which would make it what? Third hand information by the time you got it. So you're basing your facts off of a fear of being "worked" by the WWE, by third hand information and a gut instinct? But me basing mine off of what the guy himself has said and off of what the company that employed him has said is some sort of ill fated logic?

Well sure because that makes as much sense as the ending to one of M. Night's most recent movies.

I'm not saying there is no way this is a work but I'm saying I believe it. Walks like a duck, talks like a duck, its a duck. Then again if he does come back at the pay per view I'll be all like "cool I didn't see that coming" while others will be rushing to their keyboards to proclaim how smart they are to the business.

[mike b]

Highlights from a recent busted open radio show interview with HHH.

http://www.sescoops.com/wrestling-news/wwe/hhh-on-cm-punk-calling-him-a-doofus-midcarders-pg-wwe/

[OldStingberg]

Who is doing all this insane critique?

Who isn't?

Here's a couple guys from PWInsider:

http://www.pwinsider.com/article/61385/looking-at-when-zack-ryder-is-the-only-positive-you-know-this-show-was-awful-edition-of-monday-night-raw.html?p=1
http://www.pwinsider.com/article/61440/an-exasperated-look-at-cm-punk-triple-h-daniel-bryan-jack-swagger-and-why-wwe-makes-it-hard-to-care-anymore.html?p=1

PWTorch:

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/The_Specialists_34/article_53001.shtml
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/absurityofitall/article_52989.shtml
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/hitsandmisses/article_53014.shtml
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/Torch_Feedback_17/article_53026.shtml

Bleacher Report:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/839511-wwe-news-release-of-kevin-nash-is-prime-example-of-poor-storyline-direction

411 Mania:

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/200481/411%5C%5Cs-Instant-Analysis-09.05.11:-Monday-Night-Raw.htm
http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/200660

That last one has an especially juicy bit.

If there's one thing I hate to be right about, it's the outcome of CM Punk's summer. Punk's run up to Money in the Bank was an absolute thing of beauty and helped create one of the best moments of recent times, but sadly that's all it was. Those people claiming that Punk's promos were as meaningful as the creation of the nWo or even that Punk had moved himself to being equal with Cena and Orton on the WWE depth chart were severely misguided. With the exception of getting some swank (old) new music Punk's "return" to WWE has become less magical every week. Coming out of SummerSlam there was hope that as Punk moved out of the WWE Championship picture there would still be something compelling and meaningful for the Second City Saint to sink his teeth into. A slow burn feud with Triple H, a war of words with Kevin Nash, and a multi-suspect conspiracy theory all had great potential. But the war of words between Punk and Nash was deflated by Nash's inability to recapture his past glory, the conspiracy was ended this past week with perhaps the worst possible reveal, and the slow burn to a Punk-Triple H match on a big show has been rushed onto a September B-show. Shoehorning in the stipulation that Triple H would have to give up the COO position her earned only a little more than a month ago and this feud has already burned through months of material. The entire Punk situation since his return has been giant case of missed opportunity and this feud has been a key part of that.

I can quickly and easily find more if you want.

[UkWrestleFan]

Hmmm I dunno about this whole thing with Nash being released. I think they're just messing with us, blurring reality, if you will. I think they're trying to make us not have a clue what is going on which will lead to some sort of surprise.

Lets look at some of the things that have happened:

- Nash returning and attacking Punk
- The whole conspiracy of who sent that 'text'.
- Nash blaming Trips
- Trips denying it
- Johnny Ace chatting with Nash backstage about something
- WWE copyrighting "Mr Future Endeavor"
- Nash coming out to nWo music
- WWE.com running an article on the nWo and a possible return for the group
- Nash being fired and leaving with Johnny Ace

Who knows what's going on but I think all this is just to F with us, really. Maybe they rthey did the nWo stuff to tease a return and have got rid of Nash to make us think it won't happen for definite but then at NoC Nash will turn up and something will happen.

Again, who really knows. I'm intrigued.

[SaySo]

From all those reviewers, i wonder what they have liked in the last five years. That would be a needle in a haystack adventure.

@UkWrestleFan, indeed. They left that segment with Nash and Lauirinatis for a reason after the kayfabe firing. It's like the Vince McMahon limo explosion and WWE trying to blur the line with reality by trying to make it like he died.

[UkWrestleFan]

I'd love for Nash to come back and getting the nWo back together. It would be cool if Nash came out during Punk/Trips and Trips turned heel with him and Nash beating the crap out of Punk. Then out runs Cena and everyone thinks he is there to help Punk but instead he joins in the beatdown, kind of like when Hogan joined the original nWo.

It won't happen because they're not gonna turn Cena at this point but it would be pretty epic if they did. Thing is, I dunno if kids would buy into Cena being the bad guy. Would they really care if he decided to beat the sense out of Punk? Do they love Punk enough to care? I doubt it.

[Tha Black Phenom]

When the WWE has two legitimate stars, yes, that's a bad thing. They should be creating new stars. And using some of their most talented workers as glorified jobbers for one of their two stars before shuffling them back off to the midcard isn't the way to create stars.

By legitimate I mean guys that have main event level heat right now, guys that can legitimately carry a main event program. That's Cena and Orton right now. That's it.

Punk is close, and I'd say for about a month there he was at that level. But pretty much everything since MitB has killed his momentum and knocked him down a step.

I think the WWE has a lot of potential stars. Punk, Del Rio, Wade Barrett, Sheamus, Miz, Christian, even Dolph Ziggler in my opinion. But those guys aren't going to ever reach Cena or Orton's level if the best opportunity they get is to be Cena or Orton's foe du jour.

There's a discrepancy there; nobody needs to reach Cena or Orton's level. They're the made guys, creating new stars doesn't just entail equaling their status. The fact you've been able to name a number of potential stars shows that they are creating new stars, and eventually, the majority of them will get their due. If someone is talented and over though, say like Punk, they may reach close or to where Cena/Orton are.

I don't wanna use Rock and Austin as a template to show where Cena and Orton have gotten to, but I'd say it's as close as it gets.

Christian didn't get shuffled back to the midcard at all, he's gotten more airtime than ever before, even on Raw. Consistently ruffling feathers with main-eventers, Raw's main-eventers even, how is that being shuffled back? Guys like Morrison and Kofi, now they got shuffled back to the midcard. Because they haven't been able to capitalize on their opportunities and became an afterthought.

Edit: You talk about Punk's momentum being knocked down a step since MITB(I would've thought since SS but okay). What else could he do after a program with Cena? Go to SD and feud with Orton? They gave him the biggest non-title angle you could arguably give someone, IMO. You can't push everyone at the same time. To create new stars, some will have to take the backseat, but just because they aren't treated in God mode doesn't mean they aren't legitimate stars. This is a different playground than a few years ago, where veterans were pissing out left and right. More than half of them are gone now.

[bookerman]

Does anyone think that at the end of the current programs (Cena/ADR and Orton/Henry) that both Cena and Orton won't have the titles? What was the last storyline that either were involved in where the title wasn't the main factor?

If you took Cena AND Orton off the roster right now, who would main event PPVs and TV? In the past, they had enough upper tier stars that they didn't need two guys to carry the programs. Austin, Rock, Mankind, UT, HHH, HBK when he came back with undercard acts like the Hardyz, Dudleys, Edge/Christian. The WWE has done a poor job of creating interest in stars outside of Cena/Orton and until recently, Punk.

I still don't understand why WWE didn't have someone like Mason Ryan or another young guy under contract play the Nash role. Punk takes them on at NOC and after Punk wins a hard fought match, he tries to interogate them, trying to find out who cost him the title. Just as Punk is about to get his answer, he's assaulted from behind by a chair wielding.....

Point being, the younger wrestler gets some attention and allows for the story to continue to evolve without having to napkin book like the last few weeks. Which is the crux of a lot of the WWE's issues, the constant changing of storylines and shows (up to hours before) leads to start/stop booking, talent treading water, and inconsistency in story telling.

[OldStingberg]

The fact you've been able to name a number of potential stars shows that they are creating new stars...
That's some pretty crazy logic.

Christian didn't get shuffled back to the midcard at all, he's gotten more airtime than ever before, even on Raw. Consistently ruffling feathers with main-eventers, Raw's main-eventers even, how is that being shuffled back?

In reference to Christian, I said 'shuffling', present tense. And I fully believe they're currently in the process of working him down the card, much in the same way they moved Barrett, The Miz, Ziggler, Swagger, etc., right back down the card.

Edit: You talk about Punk's momentum being knocked down a step since MITB(I would've thought since SS but okay). What else could he do after a program with Cena? Go to SD and feud with Orton? They gave him the biggest non-title angle you could arguably give someone, IMO.

Why end the program with Cena? Seriously, why? It was the hottest story the WWE has had in years, possibly a decade. Why hotshot it to a poor conclusion?

But if you have to end it, why move him into a feud with Kevin Nash and a face Triple H? Nash is old, irrelevant, and bad, and won't be able to deliver any good matches with Punk at PPVs.

And Triple H is just a terrible foe for Punk right now. Like I said before, Punk's schtick of speaking truth to power doesn't work when the power is incredibly popular. Again, Triple H was getting the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon. What can Punk do to draw heat from Triple H right now? All they've got him doing is insulting Stephanie and criticizing Triple H's manhood. Punk is currently a face acting like a heel to a more popular face.

This is the biggest non-title angle Punk could be in? A terrible whodunnit with no proper foe and little in the way of PPV payoffs?

To be fair, if Triple H or Cena turns heel on Punk at NoC, they can salvage this story to a point. I think no matter what they'll have missed a huge opportunity with Punk, but they can at least undo the damage of the past month if they get their **** together going forward. I don't have a ton of confidence in that happening, but I'm willing to wait and see what they do at NoC.

[OldStingberg]

If you took Cena AND Orton off the roster right now, who would main event PPVs and TV? In the past, they had enough upper tier stars that they didn't need two guys to carry the programs. Austin, Rock, Mankind, UT, HHH, HBK when he came back with undercard acts like the Hardyz, Dudleys, Edge/Christian. The WWE has done a poor job of creating interest in stars outside of Cena/Orton and until recently, Punk.

Don't forget Jericho or Kurt Angle, either. Seriously, looking at the stars the WWE had nine or ten years ago, it's crazy how things are now. And it's not like it's all hindsight, like trying to claim Cena as a big star in 2002 or something. You could say that Edge & Christian weren't there yet, though I think the argument could be made that as a team they were a great draw, but Austin, Rock, Mankind, Taker, HHH, HBK, Jericho, and Angle were all legitimate stars. Now there's Cena, Orton, and maybe kinda Punk.

I still don't understand why WWE didn't have someone like Mason Ryan or another young guy under contract play the Nash role.
Yes! Or, even more bewildering, why isn't someone like Mason Ryan in the Mark Henry role? All that role has required is a big muscular dude that can bodyslam people. No charisma or mic skills required! No in-ring talent required! Why waste this ridiculously easy monster push on Mark Henry, a guy the WWE universe has time and again not cared about? Why not use this ridiculously easy monster push to start making a new star? I was joking with a buddy that Mark Henry must be blackmailing Vince, because that's the only plausible explanation why he would get this push at this point.

[Tha Black Phenom]

That's some pretty crazy logic.

You see their potential do you not? Which isn't just because they're talented but because they're putting effort in advancing their characters, crafting their promos and what they bring to the table. You know where the majority of them will(or should) land in the next few years.

In reference to Christian, I said 'shuffling', present tense. And I fully believe they're currently in the process of working him down the card, much in the same way they moved Barrett, The Miz, Ziggler, Swagger, etc., right back down the card.

It's like I said, if they wanna create new guys, some will have to take a backseat at some point. The Miz has been taking a sizeable backseat when we all know he could rise back up to main-event stardom when the time will be right. Some cases will look less optimistic such as Swagger's, when it comes to Christian though he has what it takes in my opinion to be a mainstay heel for the brand if needed.

Why end the program with Cena? Seriously, why? It was the hottest story the WWE has had in years, possibly a decade. Why hotshot it to a poor conclusion?

But if you have to end it, why move him into a feud with Kevin Nash and a face Triple H? Nash is old, irrelevant, and bad, and won't be able to deliver any good matches with Punk at PPVs.

And Triple H is just a terrible foe for Punk right now. Like I said before, Punk's schtick of speaking truth to power doesn't work when the power is incredibly popular. Again, Triple H was getting the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon. What can Punk do to draw heat from Triple H right now? All they've got him doing is insulting Stephanie and criticizing Triple H's manhood. Punk is currently a face acting like a heel to a more popular face.

This is the biggest non-title angle Punk could be in? A terrible whodunnit with no proper foe and little in the way of PPV payoffs?

To be fair, if Triple H or Cena turns heel on Punk at NoC, they can salvage this story to a point. I think no matter what they'll have missed a huge opportunity with Punk, but they can at least undo the damage of the past month if they get their **** together going forward. I don't have a ton of confidence in that happening, but I'm willing to wait and see what they do at NoC.

I guess it's down to one's perspective how long it lasted, I didn't really feel any amounts of hotshotting myself, it looked clear they a) tried to wrap it up for the second biggest PPV of the year and b) they tried to cement Punk's face turn. He would've always gotten cheered against Cena, but if they wanted his face turn to be crystallized they had to gear him towards someone else. If you feel otherwise on the hotsotting of the angle fairplay, just for curiosity I wonder where else you could've sent the angle from then on.

And yes, better this than Punk feuding with R-Truth or Miz(though Miz could be a worthy angle right there). The disposition aspect between Punk/H is indeed head-scratching, and with Nash "out" of the picture for now, something has to give.. my prediction is Triple H turning heel. Or another party entering the fray. Either way, with how spotty the angle's been lately, I still have trust in two promo kings in HHH and Punk to deliver at least something decent. Even their promos on SD! caught attention.

[bookerman]

Christian didn't get shuffled back to the midcard at all, he's gotten more airtime than ever before, even on Raw. Consistently ruffling feathers with main-eventers, Raw's main-eventers even, how is that being shuffled back? Guys like Morrison and Kofi, now they got shuffled back to the midcard. Because they haven't been able to capitalize on their opportunities and became an afterthought.

Edit: You talk about Punk's momentum being knocked down a step since MITB(I would've thought since SS but okay). What else could he do after a program with Cena? Go to SD and feud with Orton? They gave him the biggest non-title angle you could arguably give someone, IMO. You can't push everyone at the same time. To create new stars, some will have to take the backseat, but just because they aren't treated in God mode doesn't mean they aren't legitimate stars. This is a different playground than a few years ago, where veterans were pissing out left and right. More than half of them are gone now.

On the 1st RAW Supershow, Christian ate the pin even though the next night he was going to face Orton on Super Smackdown. Why couldn't Sheamus (coming off losing a feud with Henry) take the fall by losing to Christian? Gives both of them something to do next (and it appears that is the direction they are going) and it makes Christian a little stronger going into his title match.

And yes, it's possible to push multiple people at once, but it takes some long term thought and 75% of a show can't be devoted to 2 angles leaving the rest of the roster to fight over 30 mins of air time. At any time, the WWE should be able to answer the "what now?" before it happens. If Cena beats ADR, what now? Henry gets the belt from Orton...ok...what now? Instead of building credible challengers/opponents from the midcard, they use plug and pray booking and HOPE that the program works out.

Looking at the midcard talents, Bryan has Bret Hart level potential but is feuding with Sin Cara, Ziggler and Swagger have unique looks, but really haven't been allowed to put things together and have a nice streak recently. Miz has mic skills and is a heat magnet, but was booked weakly in his first run. Morrison can't talk, but his flashy offense is a nice contrast to the more grounded others. Riley has a nice look but hasn't been booked strong on TV recently. He and Morrison in a tag team would be interesting. Kofi and Evan are tag champs. Barrett can talk and is solid in the ring. Rhodes and Dibiase have potential, but need strong booking (ie clean wins over people for an extended period of time).

WWE has some nice pieces, but it appears the puzzle they are trying to put together changes at the drop of a hat.

[OldStingberg]

You see their potential do you not? Which isn't just because they're talented but because they're putting effort in advancing their characters, crafting their promos and what they bring to the table. You know where the majority of them will(or should) land in the next few years.

I certainly see their potential. But that doesn't mean the WWE has made them stars. In fact, it's probably the opposite. If we're still talking about their potential, it means they're not stars yet. No one talks about Tom Brady's potential anymore.

It's like I said, if they wanna create new guys, some will have to take a backseat at some point. The Miz has been taking a sizeable backseat when we all know he could rise back up to main-event stardom when the time will be right. Some cases will look less optimistic such as Swagger's, when it comes to Christian though he has what it takes in my opinion to be a mainstay heel for the brand if needed.
But it's needed now. The WWE has 2.5 stars, all of which are faces. Now's the time for credible, mainstay heels. Instead they jobbed Christian to Orton nearly every other week over the summer, and now they've moved Christian into a feud with Sheamus, a feud Christian will probably lose considering the heat Sheamus has.

I guess it's down to one's perspective how long it lasted, I didn't really feel any amounts of hotshotting myself, it looked clear they a) tried to wrap it up for the second biggest PPV of the year and b) they tried to cement Punk's face turn. He would've always gotten cheered against Cena, but if they wanted his face turn to be crystallized they had to gear him towards someone else. If you feel otherwise on the hotsotting of the angle fairplay, just for curiosity I wonder where else you could've sent the angle from then on.

They held Punk off of TV for a single week. That's gotta make it impossible to say the angle wasn't hotshotted, right?

Personally, I would have kept Punk off TV the entire month following MITB. Spend that month building the WWE Championship tournament with the finals between Cena and the Miz at SummerSlam. Keep doing little viral things like the Comic Con stuff throughout the month to keep the whispers about Punk going. At SS, Punk shows up with his title during the main event, accidentally distracting the Miz. Cena capitalizes, wins the belt, and him and Punk end the show staring each other down with their titles.

Then they would build to Cena/Punk at NoC. The Miz interferes costing Punk the match, evening Cena/Punk at one apiece, and afterwards Del Rio sneak attacks Cena to cash in the briefcase and win the title.

That would lead into Punk/Miz and Cena/Del Rio feuds with still some simmering tension between Punk and Cena. That gives Punk a legitimate heel to draw heat off of in a program that would feature great matches and even better promos. Hell, they could even turn Triple H as part of the story and have Triple H and The Miz be the heads of a new Corporation or whatever, which would be a tailor-made feature match for Survivor Series.

Let's say they wrap those feuds up around TLC in December with Punk and Cena both coming out on top. They could then do Cena/Punk as the Royal Rumble main event. Punk would win that match clean, cementing his place as a main eventer for life. They'd shake hands afterwards, and they would move onto their WrestleMania feuds. Cena/Rock obviously, and Punk/Rumble winner for the title. Imagine a WrestleMania with potentially Orton/Barrett for the World Championship with DBryan cashing in afterwards, Punk/Ziggler for the WWE Championship (which I'd love for Dolph to win), and Cena/Rock closing it out. With the exception of the Rock, those are six of the guys they could be building the company around for the next 5-10 years all showcased in a PPV guaranteed to do bonkers numbers.

That's what the WWE needs to do. My off-the-top-of-my-head scenario certainly isn't the only way to do it, far from it, but it's one way. Point is, the WWE needs to be looking at building stars to go alongside Cena and Orton. Pushing HHH, Nash, and Mark Henry isn't giving me a ton of confidence that they're doing that.

[Teh_Showtime]

thats because they don't teach the guys to fish, they just feed them.

Using things like MITB to try to become a top guy instantly won't work without natural progression and time.

[bookerman]

thats because they don't teach the guys to fish, they just feed them.

Using things like MITB to try to become a top guy instantly won't work without natural progression and time.

Totally agree, MITB/Royal Rumble/etc should be used as stepping stones on the way up and as part of a long term progression plan.

I liken it to creating TV/Movie stars. It's VERY rare that someone shows up on a movie/TV show and is instantly a hot draw. Guys like Tom Hanks, Jim Carrey, Mark Wahlberg, George Clooney, Brad Pitt, took time to become who they are. Over time their roles got larger and larger and they were able to command higher dollars for their work.

[Tha Black Phenom]

On the 1st RAW Supershow, Christian ate the pin even though the next night he was going to face Orton on Super Smackdown. Why couldn't Sheamus (coming off losing a feud with Henry) take the fall by losing to Christian? Gives both of them something to do next (and it appears that is the direction they are going) and it makes Christian a little stronger going into his title match.

Maybe they don't want to make Christian look stronger. Being the opportunistic heel that he is, he will get pinned, a lot. But saying that, people think that means he's gonna get shafted or something - it's not that black and white. He can lose loads and still be featured in main-events if they craft a motive and story around it, and show how much of a mainstay he can be despite the losses and pins.

That's another aspect I've been talking about; when some of us are antsy over booking aspects even if other factors can take precedence.

And yes, it's possible to push multiple people at once, but it takes some long term thought and 75% of a show can't be devoted to 2 angles leaving the rest of the roster to fight over 30 mins of air time. At any time, the WWE should be able to answer the "what now?" before it happens. If Cena beats ADR, what now? Henry gets the belt from Orton...ok...what now? Instead of building credible challengers/opponents from the midcard, they use plug and pray booking and HOPE that the program works out.

The reason resides in Triple H's interview up there; yeah, they switch things around a lot but that's because of many factors clashing at once. They have to deal with the crowd reaction, sometimes if they see it isn't favorable they'll change things at a minute's notice. If it's more than favorable(Punk's reaction), they'll adjust too. It's live television, sometimes they'll have to make changes even if it looks sketchy. Of course, sometimes it just won't look pretty at all and certain angles can fall flat on their faces.

Answering the "what now" either isn't that simple, or when they do it we barely realize because "that's how it's supposed to be". Also when they try to, sometimes it becomes very predictable(which is ironically another thing people bitch about).

[Tha Black Phenom]

I certainly see their potential. But that doesn't mean the WWE has made them stars. In fact, it's probably the opposite. If we're still talking about their potential, it means they're not stars yet. No one talks about Tom Brady's potential anymore.

I didn't say they made them stars. We were talking about creating new stars, are we not? As in, in the process of. And that will include some prospects taking the backseat so the WWE can test the waters with other talent. We can sit here and say "now, now" but again it's not always that simple. Punk is getting that 'now' rub if you wanna be technical, it goes one at a time. They can push multiple guys at once yeah, and yeah it requires long-term planning but another thing that's required is the star power. Below you say it yourself, they have 2.5 stars. So they have to go at it slowly.

But it's needed now. The WWE has 2.5 stars, all of which are faces. Now's the time for credible, mainstay heels. Instead they jobbed Christian to Orton nearly every other week over the summer, and now they've moved Christian into a feud with Sheamus, a feud Christian will probably lose considering the heat Sheamus has.

Yeah, Sheamus who's the other big face of the brand. They're literally doing square dancing with the four top guys on SmackDown!, that's what it looks like to me.

Credible mainstay heels don't always need to go over, at least not over the big babyface dog of the brand. It has rarely gone like that since the heel HHH days, why would it be the case now? Getting the heat is what matters.

[bookerman]

Maybe they don't want to make Christian look stronger. Being the opportunistic heel that he is, he will get pinned, a lot. But saying that, people think that means he's gonna get shafted or something - it's not that black and white. He can lose loads and still be featured in main-events if they craft a motive and story around it, and show how much of a mainstay he can be despite the losses and pins.

That's another aspect I've been talking about; when some of us are antsy over booking aspects even if other factors can take precedence.



The reason resides in Triple H's interview up there; yeah, they switch things around a lot but that's because of many factors clashing at once. They have to deal with the crowd reaction, sometimes if they see it isn't favorable they'll change things at a minute's notice. If it's more than favorable(Punk's reaction), they'll adjust too. It's live television, sometimes they'll have to make changes even if it looks sketchy. Of course, sometimes it just won't look pretty at all and certain angles can fall flat on their faces.

Answering the "what now" either isn't that simple, or when they do it we barely realize because "that's how it's supposed to be". Also when they try to, sometimes it becomes very predictable(which is ironically another thing people @#!*% about).

Maybe I've listened to too many I Want Wrestling podcasts, but it's more than changing things to suit crowd reaction. It's rewriting entire shows the day of and segments minutes before they go on air, especially promos. I trust the opinion of people who have worked for the WWE for years when they say that "Vince has trouble making up his mind and even when he does, it could change again before going on air." That's a diservice to the writers/creative and the talent for putting them in a position of not knowing what they are doing or where there character is going in the coming weeks and months. It's a flavor of the week deal. As opposed to long term story archs, they blow through months of material in a few weeks. Christian/Orton could have gone on for months IF they hadn't done any matches on TV together except the first one. Every other rematch could have been on PPV. And during the feud, when did Orton ever "show @$$" in terms of making Christian into a credible threat that could beat him without needing stips.

Fans cheer and back winners...period. At some point, if they guy/team they are following doesn't win (and win clean), they stop being seen as credible (see WCW vs NWO -WCW never got the upperhand and eventually crowd support for the "good guys" turned into apathy). Even if a heel is going to ultimately lose, they still need to be seen as a credible threat to the face. Think about how boring Batman comics would be if the worse thing the Joker did to get over was to try to get Batman thrown in jail or to knock over a hot dog stand. Those aren't "evil". The Joker got over b/c he very often had Batman at his wits end and Batman was either just a bit smarter or quicker on the draw or pulled out a miraculous batarang throw just in time to foil the Joker's plans.

Wrestling is similar. The heels HAVE to be seen as a threat. Whether it be to the faces title, to the faces health, or something. In the end, the face needs to win the war, but the heel needs to win some battles along the way. I don't think Christian won enough battles to make the war really interesting.

Also found this link interesting:

http://realwrestlecrap.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=WWE&action=display&thread=342951&page=1

[Teh_Showtime]

In non title matches on SD, didn't Christian pin Orton in a tag match? I don't remember Orton pinning him on SD in a non title match

[djthefunkchris]

Who isn't?

Here's a couple guys from PWInsider:

http://www.pwinsider.com/article/61385/looking-at-when-zack-ryder-is-the-only-positive-you-know-this-show-was-awful-edition-of-monday-night-raw.html?p=1
http://www.pwinsider.com/article/61440/an-exasperated-look-at-cm-punk-triple-h-daniel-bryan-jack-swagger-and-why-wwe-makes-it-hard-to-care-anymore.html?p=1

PWTorch:

http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/The_Specialists_34/article_53001.shtml
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/absurityofitall/article_52989.shtml
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/hitsandmisses/article_53014.shtml
http://pwtorch.com/artman2/publish/Torch_Feedback_17/article_53026.shtml

Bleacher Report:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/839511-wwe-news-release-of-kevin-nash-is-prime-example-of-poor-storyline-direction

411 Mania:

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/200481/411%5C%5Cs-Instant-Analysis-09.05.11:-Monday-Night-Raw.htm
http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/columns/200660

That last one has an especially juicy bit.



I can quickly and easily find more if you want.

I meant here... I don't hardly ever go to any of those sights unless I want to know something out ahead of time, and they seen it already.

The reason I don't is because of stuff like that, you just posted:

If there's one thing I hate to be right about, it's the outcome of CM Punk's summer. Punk's run up to Money in the Bank was an absolute thing of beauty and helped create one of the best moments of recent times, but sadly that's all it was.
Right here for one... "Sadly that's all it was." How is that possible... Did the world end? Did CM Punk leave? No??? Then how is anything over..

Let's go on a little bit here.


Those people claiming that Punk's promos were as meaningful as the creation of the nWo or even that Punk had moved himself to being equal with Cena and Orton on the WWE depth chart were severely misguided. IF anyone thinks that CM Punk hasn't jumped up several rows of stairs after that, they are completely misguided. Where is any form of proof of this? Is he going to explain how this can be true?

With the exception of getting some swank (old) new music Punk's "return" to WWE has become less magical every week. Coming out of SummerSlam there was hope that as Punk moved out of the WWE Championship picture there would still be something compelling and meaningful for the Second City Saint to sink his teeth into. A slow burn feud with Triple H, a war of words with Kevin Nash, and a multi-suspect conspiracy theory all had great potential.
Umm... Speaking in the past tense of something that isn't over. Ok, everythings ended, and there is no more? IF I believed this guy, there would be no reason for me to tune in at all, because it's all over already.

But the war of words between Punk and Nash was deflated by Nash's inability to recapture his past glory, the conspiracy was ended this past week with perhaps the worst possible reveal, and the slow burn to a Punk-Triple H match on a big show has been rushed onto a September B-show.
Wow!! They're going to have their match on the next NEXT? oh... He means a Pay Per View.... How can I take someone serious when they have every fact wrong? This one here... IF I wasn't reading it just to show why I don't read it, I wouldn't have gone any farther... it's like saying I shouldn't like Sunday because it comes after Saturday, or Halloween is one of the worse daysof the year, because Christmas is a bigger holiday.

Shoehorning in the stipulation that Triple H would have to give up the COO position her earned only a little more than a month ago and this feud has already burned through months of material. The entire Punk situation since his return has been giant case of missed opportunity and this feud has been a key part of that. Coo position her... I guess he meant he. At any rate, the guy's post or whatever it is, it's almost as if he's making an april fools post or something. No facts, no actual reason to think like him. Nothing of substance to really debate with him about, because he's obviously not watching the show, and obviously doesn't realise Punk's getting more time, probably twice as much time then the people he says is so much higher above him. Just a totally off post, completely lacking any form of truth to it....

IF he doesn't like it, then fine. Heck, I'm not going to lie here, I don't really like what's going on at the moment. However, I can't deny how much my interest has been raised since the start of it. I have no idea who is going to win, or how... People claim it's obvious, but they claimed it was completely obvious Cena was going to win as well... and of course they were wrong. Personally, I find these types of people are 90% of the time wrong, and yet somehow claim it ended up the way they said it would, although they said something completely different.

That's why I don't bother going to those sights. IF there were more people that talked and thought like that here, I wouldn't be a part of this community. Fact is, if it happens, I would leave without a problem. I was playing Adam's games long before I become a member here, and I would be just fine without it, if it become over run with completely out of their mind people like that.

[Moe Hunter]

Think about how boring Batman comics would be if the worse thing the Joker did to get over was to try to get Batman thrown in jail or to knock over a hot dog stand. Those aren't "evil".

If the hot dog stand was on a beach during X-Men 2, absolutely it would be evil!

[Linsolv]

Coo position her... I guess he meant he. At any rate, the guy's post or whatever it is, it's almost as if he's making an april fools post or something. No facts, no actual reason to think like him. Nothing of substance to really debate with him about, because he's obviously not watching the show, and obviously doesn't realise Punk's getting more time, probably twice as much time then the people he says is so much higher above him. Just a totally off post, completely lacking any form of truth to it....

I don't know, man. I sat down to finally catch up on RAW yesterday, and what I discovered (aside from that reading a textbook and watching RAW is really hard) was that yeah, they seem to be giving him a lot of time, but it's all stuff that, when explained one-after-another, makes you scratch your head.

The question you have to ask is, what's the difference between where he was before this and where he is now, in real terms? The last few months, sure. He's been a little behind the times. But when he was the leader of the New Nexus? He was on TV this much. He's on TV a little more, now? What is it exactly?

[Teh_Showtime]

I don't know, maybe the fact that he gets MORE focus than Cena

[OldStingberg]

Right here for one... "Sadly that's all it was." How is that possible... Did the world end? Did CM Punk leave? No??? Then how is anything over..

The writer very specifically referenced "CM Punk's summer". Considering summer is generally considered June-August, that is in fact over.

IF anyone thinks that CM Punk hasn't jumped up several rows of stairs after that, they are completely misguided. Where is any form of proof of this? Is he going to explain how this can be true?

This is a good bit of deceptive wordplay. The writer said anyone who thought Punk reached Cena or Orton's level was misguided. You countered by saying that it's obvious that Punk had jumped up several rows of stairs. Ok, but that's not what the writer said. He said Punk hasn't reach Cena or Orton's level. And he hasn't. He doesn't get nearly the reaction anymore that those two guys get.

Wow!! They're going to have their match on the next NEXT? oh... He means a Pay Per View.... How can I take someone serious when they have every fact wrong? This one here... IF I wasn't reading it just to show why I don't read it, I wouldn't have gone any farther... it's like saying I shouldn't like Sunday because it comes after Saturday, or Halloween is one of the worse daysof the year, because Christmas is a bigger holiday.

Again, more deception. You take umbrage at his characterization of one of the WWE's lesser PPVs, while ignoring the main, and nearly undisputed, points regarding Nash's disappointing performances, the mind-boggling reveal to the whodunnit, and the hotshotting of the Punk/HHH match onto a lesser PPV.

But clearly going after the writer calling NoC a September B show was the most relevant thing there.

Coo position her... I guess he meant he. At any rate, the guy's post or whatever it is, it's almost as if he's making an april fools post or something. No facts, no actual reason to think like him. Nothing of substance to really debate with him about, because he's obviously not watching the show, and obviously doesn't realise Punk's getting more time, probably twice as much time then the people he says is so much higher above him. Just a totally off post, completely lacking any form of truth to it....

And we end with what, no offense, has become my least favorite argument, that of "But Punk's getting so much time!" No one's arguing that. No one's saying that they're not letting Punk on TV. The main argument is the WWE's handling of Punk after MitB has wasted an opportunity to cement him on Cena and Orton's level. And so far, that's undeniably true. He doesn't have the heat Cena or Orton has. Not at all. Punk being on TV a lot doesn't by default change that. Nexus was on TV a whole lot last year, but that didn't mean Wade Barrett was anywhere near Cena or Orton's level.

Granted, the WWE might be able to redeem this whole thing if they do something dramatic soon. But that's no reason why they can't be criticized for what they've already done.

[OldStingberg]

The question you have to ask is, what's the difference between where he was before this and where he is now, in real terms? The last few months, sure. He's been a little behind the times. But when he was the leader of the New Nexus? He was on TV this much. He's on TV a little more, now? What is it exactly?

I think the difference is that there are a lot more people that really want to love Punk. His MitB program energized existing fans and created a lot of new fans. Now the WWE just needs to give those fans more reasons to get excited about him. The Nash/HHH/Punk storyline has obviously missed the mark in that regard so far.

[bookerman]

The reason resides in Triple H's interview up there; yeah, they switch things around a lot but that's because of many factors clashing at once. They have to deal with the crowd reaction, sometimes if they see it isn't favorable they'll change things at a minute's notice. If it's more than favorable(Punk's reaction), they'll adjust too. It's live television, sometimes they'll have to make changes even if it looks sketchy. Of course, sometimes it just won't look pretty at all and certain angles can fall flat on their faces.

Answering the "what now" either isn't that simple, or when they do it we barely realize because "that's how it's supposed to be". Also when they try to, sometimes it becomes very predictable(which is ironically another thing people bitch about).

Forgot to add, if they (they being Vince/Steph/creative/etc) can't have a decent idea of what is/is not going to get a reaction then they shouldn't be in a position to determine that.

[djthefunkchris]

The writer very specifically referenced "CM Punk's summer". Considering summer is generally considered June-August, that is in fact over.So he is ending the storyline himself? That's just aweful viewing, period. There was nothing from WWE that makes me think anything is over with the storyline.

Pluss... Isn't it a bit ridiculous to end it in summer, and expect so much done, yet..... The whole post was based on Punk being hotshotted?

You don't see the hypocrisy in that whatsoever though, do you?

This is a good bit of deceptive wordplay. The writer said anyone who thought Punk reached Cena or Orton's level was misguided. You countered by saying that it's obvious that Punk had jumped up several rows of stairs. Ok, but that's not what the writer said. He said Punk hasn't reach Cena or Orton's level. And he hasn't. He doesn't get nearly the reaction anymore that those two guys get..

The way he said it was as if it's totally out of Punk's reach, and I totally dissagree.
Those people claiming that Punk's promos were as meaningful as the creation of the nWo or even that Punk had moved himself to being equal with Cena and Orton on the WWE depth chart were severely misguided.
Punk's promo to start this thing off was outstanding, easily the most talked about thing in wrestling in years, if not a decade. Definately on his way to being an equal to Cena and Orton... and to be honest, is equal to "heel" Orton. So yeah, I totally dissagree with this guy.

Again, more deception. You take umbrage at his characterization of one of the WWE's lesser PPVs, while ignoring the main, and nearly undisputed, points regarding Nash's disappointing performances, the mind-boggling reveal to the whodunnit, and the hotshotting of the Punk/HHH match onto a lesser PPV. .
Nash can't compete with Punk without a script, that didn't exactly boggle my mind. He is mad about hotshotting, after you said he wanted it to be over in the summer time. Make up your mind here...

The thing with HHH has just started. We have absolutely no idea where it's going. This could be the only match, it could be the start of a huge fued, we don't know.

And again, mad about the reveal because it wasn't anything anyone guessed is getting very old... OH, So it didn't happen any of the dozen ways I said it should have ended, and so I'm unhappy... and by the way, I'm unhappy that part is over, although plenty were saying it was getting old... Probably this guy said something along those lines as well. I can tell by the post. This Whodunnit thing is getting old, they better reveal something soon.... Oh no, I was wrong, so it must be bad.

But clearly going after the writer calling NoC a September B show was the most relevant thing there..
NO, he left out PPV on purpose, in order to make his post look better, and it made it look worse.

What he said was...
But the war of words between Punk and Nash was deflated by Nash's inability to recapture his past glory, the conspiracy was ended this past week with perhaps the worst possible reveal, and the slow burn to a Punk-Triple H match on a big show has been rushed onto a September B-show.
For something that could be the start of something bigger... I have no problem with it being on a lesser PPV. PPV's aren't "A" and "B" shows... A "B" show highlights midcarders, an "A" show highlights main eventers. This isn't a "B" show. The only reason he said "B" show was to make it sound totally different then reality.
And we end with what, no offense, has become my least favorite argument, that of "But Punk's getting so much time!" No one's arguing that. No one's saying that they're not letting Punk on TV. The main argument is the WWE's handling of Punk after MitB has wasted an opportunity to cement him on Cena and Orton's level. And so far, that's undeniably true. He doesn't have the heat Cena or Orton has. Not at all. Punk being on TV a lot doesn't by default change that. Nexus was on TV a whole lot last year, but that didn't mean Wade Barrett was anywhere near Cena or Orton's level..
He comes out, he says his things... The thing is, they are letting him say HIS things.. It's not WWE's fault if he's not creating over the top heat everytime a word comes out his mouth. However, I find he always gets something in that makes you go "Yeah!", and to be totally honest about the whole thing... IF you go watch the promo that started it all, you will see even less crowd reaction. The only time the crowd went nuts for Punk was in Chicago. WWE isn't doing this because Punk got a "great" reaction from the crowd... They seen what we did. They seen someone do a promo that looked so real, people wanted to believe it. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're living in a dream world if you thought that at any point, outside of Chicago, he was getting better reactions. It's been steadily the same since then.

Granted, the WWE might be able to redeem this whole thing if they do something dramatic soon. But that's no reason why they can't be criticized for what they've already done.

I don't mind criticizing or saying you don't like it. But outright exaggerating your points (in other words, fibbing), is just the kind of dramatics that turn real fans away.

In one hand people complain about NOT making stars... Then someone like Sheamus beats an older and bigger star like Christian, and they call foul play... Even though Sheamus is the babyface, and Christian in the heel.

Heels don't win legit. Face's do. Heel's win by cheating, faces don't.

Everyone ignores the match, and just looks at the outcome of the match. Another thing I think is totally ridiculous... What was it someone said earlier, the Batman/Joker analogy. In a match, There is always times when it looks like Christian is going to win. This makes Christian look credible. IT is ALWAYS ignored when trying to make points, and I'm sure me saying this someone is going to simply state "Christian lost, that's all that matters", which is totally absurd.

[OldStingberg]

Nash can't compete with Punk without a script, that didn't exactly boggle my mind. He is mad about hotshotting, after you said he wanted it to be over in the summer time. Make up your mind here...

That's...not what was said. But I literally can't think of a way to make that clearer for you.

And again, mad about the reveal because it wasn't anything anyone guessed is getting very old... OH, So it didn't happen any of the dozen ways I said it should have ended, and so I'm unhappy... and by the way, I'm unhappy that part is over, although plenty were saying it was getting old... Probably this guy said something along those lines as well. I can tell by the post. This Whodunnit thing is getting old, they better reveal something soon.... Oh no, I was wrong, so it must be bad.

Um, people are mad about the reveal because it was bad, not because it was unexpected. Nash texted himself. Think about that. Nash texted himself. For no reason. It is literally inexplicable. That's just bad. The fact that it was unexpected had nothing to do with it.

But I think it's clear that, for whatever reasons, we're not going to see eye-to-eye, and we're not going to have all that productive of a discussion, so I'm gonna stop here.

[djthefunkchris]

That's...not what was said. But I literally can't think of a way to make that clearer for you.

The "Summer of Punk" really ended at MITB. Summer slam was a followup, and that's it really. Everything else is on with the next thing.

He's putting everything else in with the last thing. You have to be more consistant in comparisons... does this right now count as part of that? OR is it just something new, to get him away from Cena for now.

It's all a matter of perspective for me. Ask me clearly, Do I think the reveal was bad? I didn't like the reveal, I was hoping for something much more. However, I realise that "people" were upset that Nash was even involved, and very afraid he would have an actual match with CM Punk. I actually wanted that, I'm the one who should be upset, but folks like that make me react totally differently, by saying irrational stuff like, "This is about Punk's Summer", then including things that aren't about the Summer, but rather the follow up. A follow up that has Punk as the main character on every tv show they have.

I've watched over half a dozen commercials today, and none of them had Orton, Cena, etc.. In them. It was all about Punk and HHH. Commercials, today... I'm confident they hold CM Punk alot higher then your quoted poster does.

Notice you just pick out one or two things in my reply's, and ignore everything else. Is that because you agree with me, and only want to confront me on a couple things you feel I'm wrong about?

I am most certainly never always right. I can agree to be wrong when I can see what the point is, if I'm missing it. The challenge is up to you to figure out how to say it without it being hidden in stuff that doesn't matter. Because when you wrap stuff that supposedly doesn't matter, to claim your facts, it's going to be questioned if I think it's just wrong.

[Teh_Showtime]

HuniCara is AMAZING

nice heel promo and he did Bryan's finisher.

He also claimed to be the Real Sin Cara so I guess we have that coming

[OldStingberg]

HuniCara is AMAZING

nice heel promo and he did Bryan's finisher.

He also claimed to be the Real Sin Cara so I guess we have that coming

It was kinda amusing to hear the crowd cheering his entrance. Poor Daniel Bryan.

I think they did a better job this week of conveying, "Seriously, stop cheering for this Sin Cara."

[Teh_Showtime]

Well Christian still gets decent cheers so I guess the crowd won't always get it.

Nice to finally see Cara with some character though

[milamber]

SD was booked strong this week. Some really good match-ups. I'm excited about a potential Sin Cara v Sin Cara match. Good opportunity for WWE to create a new Sin Cara costume (hopefully similar to the white Mistico costume).

Cole was less annoying this week until he started ranting on and on in the Rhodes v Orton match. I'm been watching all the Wrestlemanias for the first time this year (#1 through to #22) and I just saw #10. Cole sounds exactly like King used to when he was a heel but King never strayed into annoying territory.

[Mr.Macho]

The Rock returning to action at Survivor Series? Check out the video (http://thesmarkreport.com). Personally its about time, they cannot hold off him wrestling any longer in my opinion.

[Hive]

The Rock returning to action at Survivor Series? Check out the video (http://thesmarkreport.com). Personally its about time, they cannot hold off him wrestling any longer in my opinion.

What video? You're linking to the main page of a website.

Though from what I read, The Rock will be at Survivor Series to interact with Cena - but will not wrestle.

[OldStingberg]

What video? You're linking to the main page of a website.

Though from what I read, The Rock will be at Survivor Series to interact with Cena - but will not wrestle.

There's a featured video section on the front page of that site currently showing a Survivor Series promo hyping the Rock's "return to action for the first time in almost eight years."

[TheKenwyne]

Here's the promo on 411:

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/201131/[VIDEO]-2011-Surivor-Series-Promo.htm

Seems pretty explicit to me. The Rock will wrestle. Survior Series Team Rock vs. Team Cena?

[Teh_Showtime]

Team Rock vs Team Cena

Team HHH vs Team Punk

plus title matches

[OldStingberg]

I'm not sure Team Rock vs. Team Cena works too well if they're both faces. Same with Team HHH vs. Team Punk. Besides the weird 'who do people root for' factors, who would the heels wrestle at Survivor Series?

[Hive]

Here's the promo on 411:

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/201131/[VIDEO]-2011-Surivor-Series-Promo.htm

Seems pretty explicit to me. The Rock will wrestle. Survior Series Team Rock vs. Team Cena?

I think you guys are putting too much into that promo. It is said that he will "return to action". And yes, while that *could* mean that he will wrestle - it could also mean that he will just cut a promo on Cena and lay a Rock Bottom. "Action" does not necessarily mean that he will wrestle. Maybe he'll be a guest referee between Cena and Del Rio?

On another Survivor Series topic, I expect some sort of "new nWo" team to participate in a match. The big question is just whether it will be with Triple H and Nash or Punk and Nash...

[OldStingberg]

I think you guys are putting too much into that promo. It is said that he will "return to action". And yes, while that *could* mean that he will wrestle - it could also mean that he will just cut a promo on Cena and lay a Rock Bottom. "Action" does not necessarily mean that he will wrestle. Maybe he'll be a guest referee between Cena and Del Rio?

To me, the key is "returns to action for the first time in almost eight years." We saw The Rock lay out Cena at WM this year, but his last match was about seven-and-a-half years ago. I think the implication is pretty clear. If The Rock's not wrestling at Survivor Series, I'd say the WWE was being intentionally misleading with that promo.

[20LEgend]

I think the suggestion of Special Guest referee might be the closest to being truth. If they aren't just lying and adding it to try and hype it.

[milamber]

Just found a video of Andy Levine's (aka Kevin Hackman) FCW debut. Don't think he'll be in the WWE for a while yet, plus he needs a name change and a better finisher.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5x99HUYeKk

Apparently Triple H pedigreed both Ryder and Mahal off-air recently.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z_gszqX3nQU


As noted before, The Rock will be appearing at this year's Survivor Series pay-per-view but won't be wrestling. Sources expect him to deliver a promo and get physically involved somehow with Cena, but not wrestle a match.

The WrestleMania 28 build is set to go in full effect at Survivor Series and Rock will likely appear at the Royal Rumble and Elimination Chamber.

The Figure Four Weekly Newsletter reports that there has been talk of doing a best-of-three series between The Rock and John Cena to solve the problem of who wins the WrestleMania main event. It's talk right now but if it happens, Rock and Cena would wrestle at WrestleMania, the following pay-per-view and then a third time at SummerSlam 2012.

Source: F4Wonline.com

[Mr.Macho]

There's a featured video section on the front page of that site currently showing a Survivor Series promo hyping the Rock's "return to action for the first time in almost eight years."

http://thesmarkreport.com its right their in front of you as stated above! Sorry I should have been more clear.

[bigtplaystew]

I think if you expect the Rock to be in a match at Survivor Series or any time before wrestlemania you are setting yourself up for disappoinment. Which is fine. Just don't waste my message board time complaining about it.

[Jaysin]

I think if you expect the Rock to be in a match at Survivor Series or any time before wrestlemania you are setting yourself up for disappoinment. Which is fine. Just don't waste my message board time complaining about it.

:rolleyes:

I think what you should be doing is not wasting YOUR time reading these arguments. This is a DISCUSSION thread. People will discuss whatever they want. They don't have to cater to your beliefs or thoughts.

[bigtplaystew]

Thank you for that intelligent discussion piece then.

[codey]

Did anyone watching this weeks NXT find it really weird that they kept Yoshi Tatsu's old music with the gimmick change? It seemed really off.

EDIT: Just read the previous discussion, please try and be less condescending in the future. It's really unnecessary.

[bigtplaystew]

First of all, my only point was that I don't want to read a bunch of people complaining about how WWe "let them down" again when they had unreasonable expectations. I'm not saying there's no way Rock's wrestling. I'm just saying if you've EVER watched a WWE product before you should know they over sensationalize things sometimes.

A very similar conversation broke out when the Rock came back on Raw and said he was "never going away." I watched countless ADULT fans who've watched for a very long time assume this meant he was joining the fulltime roster.

I'm just saying.. be realistic here it's not likely that the Rock is wrestling at Survivor Series. Especially when you are breaking down what amounts to a sentence fragment.


I never said I expected people to cater to my needs or anything of the sort. That was all made up by someone who felt the need to try to take a shot at me rather than add to a conversation.

[Self]

A very similar conversation broke out when the Rock came back on Raw and said he was "never going away." I watched countless ADULT fans who've watched for a very long time assume this meant he was joining the fulltime roster.

To be fair, that was a pretty misleading thing for Rock to say. I don't blame any fans, adult or not, to have taken him at his word. Especially if they're not on the internet or studying the inner workings of things.

Similarly, here we've got a misleading advert. Not cool.

[bigtplaystew]

To be fair, that was a pretty misleading thing for Rock to say. I don't blame any fans, adult or not, to have taken him at his word. Especially if they're not on the internet or studying the inner workings of things.

Similarly, here we've got a misleading advert. Not cool.



I'm sorry does it say anywhere that the Rock WILL WRESTLE at survivor series? nope.

And did the Rock ever say, "I'm joining the WWE roster fulltime??" Nope.


He simply said he wasn't leavign again. He then later agreed to take part in Wrestlemania. The fact that YOU, adult or not, are not satified with this... is quite frankly YOUR problem and I get sick of people complaining about stuff like this.


They use catchphrases and words that are misleading (WWE? MIDLEADING?? NOOOO) to some I guess but it's just hype machine banter to get you to buy a PPV.

I thought we all understood this.


I dont mean to come off "condescending" or mean or angry but I feel like WWE fans, especially the adult ones, get a little ahead of themselves and expect WWE to overdeliver. Then I gotta sit here and read a bunch of garbage about how some fans "expected more" from them and crap like that.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Fans cheer and back winners...period. At some point, if they guy/team they are following doesn't win (and win clean), they stop being seen as credible (see WCW vs NWO -WCW never got the upperhand and eventually crowd support for the "good guys" turned into apathy). Even if a heel is going to ultimately lose, they still need to be seen as a credible threat to the face. Think about how boring Batman comics would be if the worse thing the Joker did to get over was to try to get Batman thrown in jail or to knock over a hot dog stand. Those aren't "evil". The Joker got over b/c he very often had Batman at his wits end and Batman was either just a bit smarter or quicker on the draw or pulled out a miraculous batarang throw just in time to foil the Joker's plans.

Wrestling is similar. The heels HAVE to be seen as a threat. Whether it be to the faces title, to the faces health, or something. In the end, the face needs to win the war, but the heel needs to win some battles along the way. I don't think Christian won enough battles to make the war really interesting.

The war maybe hasn't been all that interesting, but it sure got Christian higher than where he used to be. Heels get to be seen as a threat through coattail-riding mechanics a lot more often than in the past. I hear a lot of the IWC ask "why didn't the heel win this to make him look stronger" and honestly, the way I've always seen it is that the heel gets lucky victories and hangs on to the babyface's shadow by drawing heat and being an overall jerk. Victories won't come along often, and when they do it'll be done to make the said victory stand out. The threat factor mainly resides in backstage assaults, the feud's heat and cheap one-ups.

Likewise, I hear Miz's WWE title run "wasn't all that great". Even I, who is by no means a fan of The Miz at all, can attest that reign did its job and it elevated him enough to be a star today. He's not headlining anything right now but he could at anytime.


The question you have to ask is, what's the difference between where he was before this and where he is now, in real terms? The last few months, sure. He's been a little behind the times. But when he was the leader of the New Nexus? He was on TV this much. He's on TV a little more, now? What is it exactly?

I recall Punk not even being featured on a Raw or two during the New Nexus run. He definitely is on TV and on the mic more often now.

Forgot to add, if they (they being Vince/Steph/creative/etc) can't have a decent idea of what is/is not going to get a reaction then they shouldn't be in a position to determine that.

Honestly, it's a fairly intricate variable at times. Only sometimes.

To be fair, that was a pretty misleading thing for Rock to say. I don't blame any fans, adult or not, to have taken him at his word. Especially if they're not on the internet or studying the inner workings of things.

Similarly, here we've got a misleading advert. Not cool.

I defended Rock for a while after his birthday bash, but I agree with you, it's hard to say he wasn't misleading. Though, I mean.. even I knew what he meant, and I knew he would never come back full-time, but I suppose Rock could've somewhat considered how fickle wrestling fans can be... and hell, it's not even them who started calling out The Rock on that. No, it had to be Cena and Randy Orton themselves, though Orton did it only through interview or something. A lot of wrestling fans out there want, want, want, marks and smarks alike, so there was bound to be people misunderstanding what Rocky meant.

Now this.. will he be in the ring at Survivor Series? I doubt it, but I wouldn't put it past them either. I dunno.

[OldStingberg]

I'm sorry does it say anywhere that the Rock WILL WRESTLE at survivor series? nope.

And did the Rock ever say, "I'm joining the WWE roster fulltime??" Nope.


He simply said he wasn't leavign again. He then later agreed to take part in Wrestlemania. The fact that YOU, adult or not, are not satified with this... is quite frankly YOUR problem and I get sick of people complaining about stuff like this.


They use catchphrases and words that are misleading (WWE? MIDLEADING?? NOOOO) to some I guess but it's just hype machine banter to get you to buy a PPV.

I thought we all understood this.


I dont mean to come off "condescending" or mean or angry but I feel like WWE fans, especially the adult ones, get a little ahead of themselves and expect WWE to overdeliver. Then I gotta sit here and read a bunch of garbage about how some fans "expected more" from them and crap like that.

You're more concerned with the people being misled than the people doing the actual misleading? That's absurdly ridiculous. I mean, it's so absurd I can only assume you're just trying to rile people up.

[OldStingberg]

Likewise, I hear Miz's WWE title run "wasn't all that great". Even I, who is by no means a fan of The Miz at all, can attest that reign did its job and it elevated him enough to be a star today. He's not headlining anything right now but he could at anytime.

Could he? Or could he only headline against Cena or Orton? Serious question.

[Teh_Showtime]

Nobody would be surprised to see Miz headlining an event these days.

But it's unlikely to happen because Orton and Cena are still there, but he is probably #4 in the company behind Cena/Orton/Punk

[djthefunkchris]

Could he? Or could he only headline against Cena or Orton? Serious question.

I get where your coming from, and I agree.... except you left other's out I think could headline with him... Undertaker, Kane, Big Show, Punk, HHH, etc.

But your general point isn't lost. He would have to have a popular opponant. However, he could definately be the second headliner.... The one that's the second to the top.

What people mean though, is when the other's aren't there, Miz can be built right back to do it. IN other words, YES he can, with the right variables.

But I see your point there.

[Tha Black Phenom]

/nod, and that's also what I mean, right now we'd feel comfortable putting Punk and Miz in that short list of guys DJ just posted. The only thing being that yes, they're not in Cena or Orton's position yet but at least we got guys nearing that status now. They're the ones being made. They're bringing them in one after the other, and yeah we'll have to endure a lot of hopscotch booking (you could even argue.. if that's what the current generation appreciates) good and bad, but soon enough one of these guys will get "there" too. Maybe it's gonna take Miz turning face? A face-turned Ziggler, or some other popular skyrocketing heel persona shot out of a cannon, who knows. Maybe they did miss the boat with Punk(boat sure as hell hasn't sank yet though). but all that's needed is patience and something's bound to stick, eventually.

[bigtplaystew]

You're more concerned with the people being misled than the people doing the actual misleading? That's absurdly ridiculous. I mean, it's so absurd I can only assume you're just trying to rile people up.

If THAT'S what you took out of what I had to say, then I don't know how to explain this any more clearly, but I'll try:

ITS WWE! THEY LIE! WHEN YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS YOU SOUND SILLY TO ME!

[Basmat01]

I get where your coming from, and I agree.... except you left other's out I think could headline with him... Undertaker, Kane, Big Show, Punk, HHH, etc.


as much as I like the Miz i dont consider him an A grade maineventer. He would fall into the B grade maineventer zone lol.

Only Cena, Orton and CM Punk really seem to be the only ones that have any real drawing power these days.

Undertaker is pretty much on his last legs these days, dont be suprised if he only has one or two big matches left in him.

Kane hasnt been a credible maineventer in years. He falls into the C grade maineventer zone lol and Big Show just moves up and down the card. Both Kane and Big Show just help put talent over these days.

now that I think about it WWE mainevent seems to look pretty thin these days

[lazorbeak]

One of the big problems with WWE being the only game in town is that so much of their roster is so stale and the audience has seen guys as mid-level for so long that it would be tremendously difficult to suddenly make John Morrison or whoever a main eventer without something drastic like him disappearing for a year. I mean John Cena's rise up the card had a real arc, from being turned babyface by the fans to beating the Big Show at WM XX, to winning the belt for the first time at 21, there was a sense that he was rising up the card and would be a big deal. Obviously you don't need everybody to duplicate that, but the number of guys who win big matches and then tool around doing nothing is too big to list. I mean if you look at WWE's roster in 2008 vs. today the big difference is that the top of the card is gone: Undertaker, Jericho, Batista, Jeff Hardy, and HBK are all gone, but it's pretty tough to see guys that have been jobbing consistently since 2008 as the heir apparent to those belts. I mean Kofi won his first IC title in 2008 over Jericho, and has continued to stay at that exact level for 3 years, without any real character development except now he doesn't have an accent and he briefly feuded with Orton. Dolph Ziggler, Santino, Rhodes & DiBiase, Morrison, Swagger, R-Truth, etc., have all been on the roster such a long time without any real momentum that it's awfully tough to make them main eventers just because the top of the card is gone.

Honestly that's why I think Sheamus should be their great white hope for the future (pun intended). He's already been built up as a heel, he's in a great position as a rising babyface, and is incredibly marketable with his Celtic symbolism and distinct look. He did have the rug cut out from him once, but it hasn't happened 3-4 times (yet) and the fans seem to respond to him.

[Rone Rivendale]

One of the big problems with WWE being the only game in town is that so much of their roster is so stale and the audience has seen guys as mid-level for so long that it would be tremendously difficult to suddenly make John Morrison or whoever a main eventer without something drastic like him disappearing for a year. I mean John Cena's rise up the card had a real arc, from being turned babyface by the fans to beating the Big Show at WM XX, to winning the belt for the first time at 21, there was a sense that he was rising up the card and would be a big deal. Obviously you don't need everybody to duplicate that, but the number of guys who win big matches and then tool around doing nothing is too big to list. to him.

I couldn't agree less. Edge was a midcarder for a decade and then they turned the swtich on him and he was an instant Main Eventer who won 11 World Titles. JBL was a midcarder for a decade and they pushed him directly to Main Event and it worked. He became one of the best Heels the WWE has ever had.

Morrison, as used in your example, is still very young. It's way too soon to start saying he has lost his chance at superstardom. WAY too soon.

[OldStingberg]

If THAT'S what you took out of what I had to say, then I don't know how to explain this any more clearly, but I'll try:

ITS WWE! THEY LIE! WHEN YOU COMPLAIN ABOUT THIS YOU SOUND SILLY TO ME!

Oh, I get what you're saying. I just find it ridiculous.

[Fantabulous]

Until WWE outright say that Rock is wrestling, the safest assumption is that any hints and inference by others of it taking place are strictly to motivate sales and have no meaning behind them. That said, until WWE do say he is wrestling it IS misleading for others to hint and suggest Rock is wrestling on a specific date, especially when they use language that any reasonable person could interpret to mean he is wrestling, when there hasn't been any storyline suggestion yet that it's happening.

I don't think Rock should wrestle until Wrestlemania so that it really is his first match in seven years. It adds something special to the occasion that I see no point in taking away for a match that would probably mean nothing unless Rock is sticking around as an active performer/part-time wrestler, which would be really insane at this point.

[Erock]

I couldn't agree less. Edge was a midcarder for a decade and then they turned the swtich on him and he was an instant Main Eventer who won 11 World Titles. JBL was a midcarder for a decade and they pushed him directly to Main Event and it worked. He became one of the best Heels the WWE has ever had.

Morrison, as used in your example, is still very young. It's way too soon to start saying he has lost his chance at superstardom. WAY too soon.

Edge could've headlined a show after TLC 1 and it would be believable, the problem was there was no opening in the earlier Attitude Era. Keep in mind that he was injured during the initial JBL push, as well as being face.

[bigtplaystew]

Yep. WWE misleads people. You guys are aware undertaker really doesn't have magical powers right?

[bookerman]

I couldn't agree less. Edge was a midcarder for a decade and then they turned the swtich on him and he was an instant Main Eventer who won 11 World Titles. JBL was a midcarder for a decade and they pushed him directly to Main Event and it worked. He became one of the best Heels the WWE has ever had.

Morrison, as used in your example, is still very young. It's way too soon to start saying he has lost his chance at superstardom. WAY too soon.

The Edge that became and stayed a ME player was not the same Edge who debuted, joined the Brood/Ministry, and did poses for those with cameras. His character was different. I also seem to recall that they had wanted to push him faster, but he kept getting hurt...that being part of the reason it took so long for him to reach the top. HOWEVER, I will add that he had established such a history in the WWE and had legitimized himself with his body of work that he didn't slide too far from the top when he didn't have the title. That's in contrast to guys like Ziggler, Swagger, Miz, etc who reached the top of the mountain and then went sliding right back down.

Same for JBL. It was John Hawk Bradshaw or Blackjack Bradshaw or APA Bradshaw that was pushed to the top. It was an updated Million Dollar Man gimmick complete with a new entrance, new wrestling attire, new mannerisms, a fancy car, and a stable (Orlando Jordan, the Bashams).

Contrast these to Morrison (roughly the same character), Kofi, Swagger, Ziggler who aren't very different from how they originally debuted (don't start with Ziggler was in the Spirit Squad cause I'm pretty sure the WWE hasn't brought that up). Same for Rhodes and Dibiase (although Rhodes is moving towards a different character now). Drew Mcintyre has held the IC title and the tag straps and has trouble getting on TV.

Point is, WWE only builds someone as credible when they need a contender. R-Truth is a good example in recent memory. A lot of the booking/writing is centered on the 1 or 2 main stories and everything else and eveyone else is left to fend for themselves.

[Linsolv]

Yep. WWE misleads people. You guys are aware undertaker really doesn't have magical powers right?

It's the same argument as I hear a lot about corporations. Some people say that corporations need to be better, because they're lying, stealing, heartless automatons run by sociopaths.

Other people say that corporations have always been thus and you should have learned your lesson.

It's an endless debate. Just agree to disagree, you'll get the pettiness over with faster.

[lazorbeak]

I couldn't agree less. Edge was a midcarder for a decade and then they turned the swtich on him and he was an instant Main Eventer who won 11 World Titles. JBL was a midcarder for a decade and they pushed him directly to Main Event and it worked. He became one of the best Heels the WWE has ever had.

Morrison, as used in your example, is still very young. It's way too soon to start saying he has lost his chance at superstardom. WAY too soon.

First, you might want to brush up on how long a "decade" is. Second, if you think Edge's career didn't have momentum, you are not understanding what I'm talking about at all. Edge was built as the superstar in waiting throughout E&C's run, culminating in winning King of the Ring and becoming a midcard babyface. Then he teamed with several main eventers including Hulk Hogan and feuded with top level heels like Kurt Angle, then he was injured for a major period of time and changed his style, turned heel, feuded with Matt Hardy in a storyline that saw him become a top heel, then won his first world title in 2006. Throughout the process, his character is moving forward, he's doing stuff he hasn't done fifteen times before, and there's a regular build. He also engaged in several memorable feuds that weren't just "Edge defends title against athletic young guy." Edge's career is one where he was constantly doing new stuff until he was a main eventer. By the time he won the title, he had basically done everything except win a top title.

John Morrison is young, but let's compare. Like Edge, he was on a successful heel tag team and won the tag titles a few times. Then he moved to Raw with Melina and won the IC title. So far, so good. Then, as part of a feud with Jeff Hardy, MNM reunites and the tag teams feud, putting on a great multi-team ladder match at Armageddon. But after the Hardyz go over, Melina becomes the focus of the stable, and Mercury is released due to his personal problems. Morrison is sent to ECW after a nonsensical pairing with Kenny Dykstra. He wins the ECW title as he gets plugged into someone else's storyline, but then drops the belt to CM Punk. At this point he and Miz stumble into a tag team and it ends up taking off, launching both men's careers forward, although, in Morrison's case, it's basically getting him back to where he was in 2005, although he does improve his skills from where he was in MNM. The two break up as Miz goes to Raw (where he is put in a short program with Cena, within months: two years later he is beating Cena at Wrestlemania), and Morrison goes to Smackdown to turn face in 2009. At this point he's been on the roster for over 4 years: for reference, after four years in WWE Edge was winning feuds with Kurt Angle as a babyface on Smackdown. But while Morrison isn't far behind that point, he's been stuck at exactly that same point for two years. While Edge was consistently involved in important feuds that saw him advance up the card, Morrison disappears from PPV inexplicably. He's had a couple of feuds that were actual build-ups to his matches, with Sheamus at the end of last year and with R-Truth and the Miz this year, but he seems to periodically take extended breaks from doing anything important. And the problem is, this is symptomatic of a lot of WWE's roster right now. There isn't a sense of character progression or build; Dolph Ziggler 2011 is exactly the same as the Dolph Ziggler that couldn't beat Rey Mysterio two years ago. Jack Swagger jobbing to Cena on Raw in 2011 is exactly the same character and status he was at in 2009 jobbing to John Cena on Raw.

I mean before Edge won his first title, he had beaten Shawn Michaels, Chris Benoit, Kane, Kurt Angle, and others in pay per view matches in storylines that weren't focused on around "#1 contender wants belt." He had been a gothic babyface, a ****y heel, a "wholesome" babyface, and a completely different type of heel. Compare that to Kofi Kingston who in four years has won 5 midcard titles, and was in one storyline where it looked like his character would evolve and he would move up the card, but was then promptly put into a variation of the same happy-go-lucky babyface persona for another two years.

My point was you can't flip a switch, and if you think Edge being champion wasn't built up to, you just weren't paying attention.

[TakerNGN74]

Not to mention that earlier in Edge's career he was in the Brood a stable which was set on building up Edge. Gangrel The Broods leader even admited in an interview that the whole purpose behind the brood stable was to help elevate Edge and nothing else.

[Basmat01]

Well Edge injured his neck in early 2003 and we didnt see him again until a year later? Edge had a ton of momentum going his way in 2002/2003. He was always going to get a push it just happend a year and abit later than when it should have.

[djthefunkchris]

Going to post this, because I think some people might think like me, and I think alot of people might have similar thoughts, even if perhaps swayed to the left or right farther. This isn't a reply post to any particular person, but just a general thought of things.

WWE has made superstars, taken advantage of other star power, and have had incredible success in light of looking as if they are going to fall on their face. Most people think competition (and this extends to most wrestler's ever interviewed, even long term WWE roster members) that competition ups their game.

I think everyone realises there's not going to be a ton of Hogan/Rock/Austin/Flair/Undertaker/Cena's running around. I think that's a given, even if your sick of some or all of them. There will be new stars, such as Punk, Orton, etc. But it takes an extra Uumph to get to the statis if Cena/Rock/Hogan/Austin level.

One of the things that bugs everyone, at least in my opinion, is the time they give to newer roster members. No time means they don't even have a chance to get over, even if they could.... However, the little time they do get, if they could just overwhelm them once, I'm sure they would be considered for the future, but that's besides the overall point. One of the things I feel, is that they give their absolute best effort towards the one's they think "have it" and will continue to do so on their major two shows, to keep them there.... to keep them relevant, and to keep them over. Leave's less time for the newer or lower cards, which even with two hours, sucks.

It seems like they try with shows like Superstars, or Next, to get lesser known characters over. I don't know if it's the Network or just WWE that gets bassically frustrated with ratings, or the show, or whatever... and changes it or cancells it. These shows would make a heck of a difference if they could become mainstay TV shows, and not fly by nights. As I said, I don't know if they have controll over that or not, considering they get compatible ratings to TNA, which is a mainstay show, perhaps with their own network, we will see what they want to do moreso.

What I would like to see, is a show that highlights a specific title(s), that aren't specifically on Raw or Smackdown... An example would be Tag Titles. Right now, unless it's a made character, it "feels" like anyone involved in these title's have been demoted. I would venture to say in TEW terms, these titles are on par with Lower card titles, not even mid-level. The US and Intercontinental titles used to get more attention, but lately it doesn't seem like it's used for anything except a background for some wrestlers "He's a five time US champion, by God!"

A show that highlighted the lower level title's, could potentially make stars out of more people, if it would stick around. I loved WWEECW for example, it was my favorite show. IT actually highlighted the Tag title's as well as ECW title's (for an example). With Miz and Morrison being on that show, and winning the title's, it made other tag teams a bit more relevant.

I'm not just talking about tag teams though... I feel that they could bring back cruiserweights as well. Raw and Smackdown could highlight the two big title's, as well as US/Intercontinental titles... A new show could highlight the Tag Teams/Women's and bringing back a cruiserweight type title. Highlighting hard on the Tag Teams, and making them credible (keeping them together longer).

Just my thoughts here... IF they could keep a show up that is.

[bookerman]

Good stuff DJ. I'd go so far to say that they create "Brand Titles" like RAW Title and Smackdown title. These titles are only defended on their respective shows and PPVs. The World/WWE title can go between shows much like the NWA title going to territories. It is ONLY defended on PPVs, barring special circumstances. The holder of the brand titles is the #1 contender for when the WWE title is available. They will give each brand 5 title shots a year (one every other month or so). The Rumble winner and the KOTR (8 man tournament, 4 from each brand) winner get automatic title shots at Wrestlemania and Summerslam respectively. It makes those two PPVs more important and the results mean something. The MITB winners would be allowed to cash in for a shot a their brand's title.

Course this is pie in the sky thinking as it would require long term planning. However, if the RAW champ lost to the World champ in June as well as a new SD champ was crowned, then your next PPV match is World champ vs new SD champ with the RAW title also being defended to determine the next challenger for the World title.. That gives 4 weeks to hype 2 big matches.

[bigtplaystew]

No Zack tonight? You serious, bro?

[OldStingberg]

I'm loving this whole Supershow thing. I mean, Jerry Lawler, Bret Hart, Ricardo Rodriguez, and Vickie Guererro wrestling all on the same night? Truly that is only made possible by the Supershow.

Anyway, the first 110 minutes of the show was very meh. They re-did the Lawler thing for some reason, but with Sheamus this time (Supershow!). They continued the abrupt ADR turnaround from a confident badass dude that defends his belt and hurts guys every show to a weasely little guy that runs away from fights. This might be the first time a simple and short visa mix-up has dictated a main eventer's character. They did the Dolph and Swagger thing a couple times, because we were in danger of forgetting that they had issues. I assume they're turning Ziggler face at some point, so it'd be cool if some of this TV time was spent setting that up. They did the Smackdown main event again three days later, albeit with a "better" finish at least.

The final face-off, though, was at least interesting. It felt like a really awesome promo for a different storyline. They spent 10 minutes going back-and-forth about stuff that wasn't really relevant before Triple H seemed to realize that and said how they were going in circles, it's not about business, it's personal, grrrrr.

To be fair, for all the crap I've given the WWE the past month, I am legitimately excited now for a Punk/HHH feud where Triple H is an actual heel and he actually puts Punk over. I'm not confident they'll give me that, but if they do, I'm on board. We'll see what happens at NoC.

[ThatChizzle]

lol has Triple H been hit in the head one too many times or what? Trying to cut a promo tonight he kept repeating himself over and over and over....

Since CM Punk is already over with the crowd, why would Triple H need to explain it to him over and over and over.... lol

[djthefunkchris]

Good stuff DJ. I'd go so far to say that they create "Brand Titles" like RAW Title and Smackdown title. These titles are only defended on their respective shows and PPVs. The World/WWE title can go between shows much like the NWA title going to territories. It is ONLY defended on PPVs, barring special circumstances. The holder of the brand titles is the #1 contender for when the WWE title is available. They will give each brand 5 title shots a year (one every other month or so). The Rumble winner and the KOTR (8 man tournament, 4 from each brand) winner get automatic title shots at Wrestlemania and Summerslam respectively. It makes those two PPVs more important and the results mean something. The MITB winners would be allowed to cash in for a shot a their brand's title.

Course this is pie in the sky thinking as it would require long term planning. However, if the RAW champ lost to the World champ in June as well as a new SD champ was crowned, then your next PPV match is World champ vs new SD champ with the RAW title also being defended to determine the next challenger for the World title.. That gives 4 weeks to hype 2 big matches.

I like your idea, with the "WWE Title" being like the NWA title, sharing between brands. Each brand having their seperate main title, etc. Like the sound of our idea's together.

Wonder why they never thought of that?

[bigtplaystew]

I thought RAW was good.

I liked Cody getting the win over Randy. I love Cody right now. I like those twisted personality type heels. He's changing frequently and it looks like the mask might be slowly comming off. Top heel waiting to happen if you ask me. I'd watch a long Randy/Cody program more intently than I've been watching Henry/Randy.

The Miz/Kofi match was pretty good too. Fast-paced and back-and-fourth.

It was fun watching Shaemus beat the crap out of McGillicuty and Otunga.

The Cena & Bret versus Del Rio/Rodriguez match was kinda goofy. I wasn't expecting much but I was hoping Del Rio would at least try some behind the back attack type stuff and leave Cena down on the mat as he walked off. In agreement with OldStingBerg, I was definately more into Del Rio / Cena when ADR was beating the crap out of his opponents and they were making it out to be more like "Can John Cena beat this guy?" rather than "Will ADR actually stand up to face Cena at the PPV?" But I guess they wanted to give Bret the big finish and let the fans cheer him. Which I'm fine with, he more than deserves it.

All in all, good show. I got a little uncomfortable towards the end with the HHH/Punk "shoot". I wasn't feeling this one but considering how closely I was watching it I can't complain. It held my interest until the show was over.

What are some predictions for Sunday? Will they book HHH over the red-hot-but-cooling CM Punk? It's hard to see HHH losing but I don't see how him beating Punk helps anything move along unless it's a screwjob type storyline that they are heading after. I am very interested in these past few PPVs ever since Money in the Bank. They are actually booking a storyline that I don't see comming from miles away and I am really digging it.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Went to Raw last night, was mostly decent, nothing too spectacular apart from the final promo. Good to see Rhodes win, maybe I'll get behind him somehow. Amusing how H used Cena of all people as an example. Don't even recall him being vocal all that much against Cena during his rise.

Yeah, Ryder won against McIntyre before the show and the post-show match featured Bret locking Miz in the sharpshooter.

[Prophet]

There's an interview from ... I think it was one of Cena's DVDs, where HHH said that Cena asked him what he thought of his (Cena's) work. And according to HHH, he told Cena he was terrible. It was supposed to show how he'd built himself up through hard work and dedication, I think.

I would've expected him to use Daniel Bryan as an example, though, considering the whole "if he's the best in the business, why doesn't he work for the `E" comment that Hunter had made on some radio show.

[ThatChizzle]

It probably won't happen, but for a way to surprise fans. Since Triple H has put up his COO job on the line, wouldn't it be good for Shane McMahon to end the match with a screwjob for Triple H? If Triple H loses, it would have to be either Steph or Shane to become the next COO. It would be a lil pointless if Triple H lost it, and his wife Steph took over, and I don't really think Linda would take over, that would be pointless as well.
Shane hasen't been even working for the WWE for a while now, and CM Punks "shoot" when he said WWE would be better with Vince Dead, but it wouldn't help because his Idiot Daughter and His Doofus Son-in-law would take over.
So Shane McMahon and CM Punk screw Triple H, and the crowd would be surprised to even see Shane at all. Then Shane McMahon could take over his Fathers company because he was going to be kinda screwed anyway. I mean that Shane is older than Steph, and he must have been thinking for years there that he would be the Heir Apparent when Vince stepped down.
It probably won't happen, but that would be a great swerve for Night of Champions.

[Nathers7]

Shane resigned in January 2010 stating that he's gave the majority of his life to WWE and wanted to do something else. He is currently heavily involved in the company International Sports Management, I would say there's little chance of him being involved in this storyline. I would mark though lol, he's definitely the most likeable McMahon.

[bigtplaystew]

Good storyline idea though. I'd mark out if I saw Shane, as nerdy as that sounds haha.

But yea I severely doubt Shane shows up. I'm pretty sure he's trying to establish himself as a legit buisnessman and based on what i've heard/read he wants nothing to do with WWE anymore.



Glad to see some more Cody love. I think he's had one of the better years at that mid-to-upper card level. I like what he's done with his character. I'm definately into the "grotesque" Cody Rhodes as much as I was into the Dashing one.

If they can work Drew Macintyre back into some level of significance I'll be a very happy mark.

[ZMAN]

Good stuff DJ. I'd go so far to say that they create "Brand Titles" like RAW Title and Smackdown title. These titles are only defended on their respective shows and PPVs. The World/WWE title can go between shows much like the NWA title going to territories. It is ONLY defended on PPVs, barring special circumstances. The holder of the brand titles is the #1 contender for when the WWE title is available. They will give each brand 5 title shots a year (one every other month or so). The Rumble winner and the KOTR (8 man tournament, 4 from each brand) winner get automatic title shots at Wrestlemania and Summerslam respectively. It makes those two PPVs more important and the results mean something. The MITB winners would be allowed to cash in for a shot a their brand's title.

Course this is pie in the sky thinking as it would require long term planning. However, if the RAW champ lost to the World champ in June as well as a new SD champ was crowned, then your next PPV match is World champ vs new SD champ with the RAW title also being defended to determine the next challenger for the World title.. That gives 4 weeks to hype 2 big matches.

I've always wanted them to do something like this. Instead of the "Raw" and "SD" titles though, I would just stick with United States (SD) and Intercontinental (RAW). The two titles have incredible lineage(minus like, Chyna and ****), and since there's no question that they are the #2 titles (since there would only be one WWE WHC), then it shouldn't be an issue that they aren't "prestigious enough." It might be weird seeing Randy Orton as US champion at first, but it would all level out after a few months once so many big names have competed for said title.

Only thing is, it's kind of a weak idea altogether if there's no brand split in place. That would lead to my new Raw 10/SD 10 brand split idea, but I don't feel like playing booker right now.

[bookerman]

Replace Shane with Johnny Ace and I think you might be closer to actual events. Ace is the puppet for Vince who causes HHH to lose and Ace get the COO job

[bookerman]

I've always wanted them to do something like this. Instead of the "Raw" and "SD" titles though, I would just stick with United States (SD) and Intercontinental (RAW). The two titles have incredible lineage(minus like, Chyna and ****), and since there's no question that they are the #2 titles (since there would only be one WWE WHC), then it shouldn't be an issue that they aren't "prestigious enough." It might be weird seeing Randy Orton as US champion at first, but it would all level out after a few months once so many big names have competed for said title.

Only thing is, it's kind of a weak idea altogether if there's no brand split in place. That would lead to my new Raw 10/SD 10 brand split idea, but I don't feel like playing booker right now.

Agreed. Without the brand split, it's kinda meaningless..unless only wins on your respective show counts towards that title. If you're a RAW superstar, only wins on RAW and PPVs count towards you getting a shot at the RAW title. If they are really wanting to have the brand titles defended more often, they could do it once every two weeks which still allows two weeks to either build the new champ for the PPV or for a rematch (depending on which brand was getting the PPV shot that month).

[Teh_Showtime]

SSlam dvd selling for $16 on Amazon

both Title matches might make that worth it imo. Orton/Christian was great

[OldStingberg]

Raw got a 2.7 rating last night with 3.86 million viewers. According to PWTorch, there's only been seven episodes of Raw that have had a worse rating in the past 14 years, and five of those happened on a major holiday. And looking at the past five years of Raw against week 1 of Monday Night Football, viewers have dropped from 5.52 million viewers in 2007 to 3.86 million viewers this year.

So, um, yeah, that's not good.

[bigtplaystew]

oh noez. its the end of wrestling!

[codey]

Last night was the first Monday Night Football of the year, after all.

Plus, it's been pointed out every time ratings get brought up that they're kind of down across the board for everything.

[OldStingberg]

Plus, it's been pointed out every time ratings get brought up that they're kind of down across the board for everything.
Second part first. This is kind of true, but mostly irrelevant. TV ratings are down from the 90's because there's more quality shows on basic cable, which has spread viewers out. TV watching in general is actually pretty flat. But those sort of trends are pretty irrelevant when we're talking about just the past couple of years. For example...

Last night was the first Monday Night Football of the year, after all.

Very true, which is why comparing Raw's rating last night to its rating in previous years against week 1 of MNF is very relevant. Like I mentioned, Raw's rating in that situation is down about 33% from just four years ago. And that 33% drop is pretty consistent with Raw's yearly ratings this year compared to four years ago. That's not good.

And bigt, I don't know why you'd go with snark for this. No one is saying this is the end of wrestling. I'd argue this past month has shown that there will always be an audience for what the WWE does, no matter how relatively bad it is.

But if you're a wrestling fan, and you're not concerned about a 33% drop in viewership in just four years, I mean, I don't know what to say.

[djthefunkchris]

Well, I'm sure WWE isn't really concerned about "RAW", since they are bassically guarrenteed their slot till the end of 2014, when it will be up for renewal again. It would have to get really bad for that to happen.

Just last Friday:
http://www.thefutoncritic.com/ratings/2011/09/01/usa-network-celebrates-biggest-summer-ever-739512/20110901usa01/

· WWE MONDAY NIGHT RAW made USA the #1 network in all of television in its Monday 9pm-11pm time period among M18-34, coming in second only to ABC in P18-34 and to HIST in M18-49, M25-54, and total males M2+. Only CBS and NBC delivered more P18-49 or P25-54 than Raw in its timeslot this summer.

What I think would show you better of how or what is going on, is to look at what RAW is doing in comparison with other shows, period... Not comparing it to itself from four years ago.... without comparing other shows from four years ago (that are still around).

Have to think in a bigger picture.

[OldStingberg]

Well, I'm sure WWE isn't really concerned about "RAW"...

The Raw Supershows would suggest otherwise.

On the other hand, maybe not. Maybe they're really thrilled that they're beating summer shows like Hell's Kitchen, Rizzoli & Isles and repeats of Hawaii 5-O. If that's the bar they've set for Raw, then mission accomplished I guess.

[bigtplaystew]

Second part first. This is kind of true, but mostly irrelevant. TV ratings are down from the 90's because there's more quality shows on basic cable, which has spread viewers out. TV watching in general is actually pretty flat. But those sort of trends are pretty irrelevant when we're talking about just the past couple of years. For example...



Very true, which is why comparing Raw's rating last night to its rating in previous years against week 1 of MNF is very relevant. Like I mentioned, Raw's rating in that situation is down about 33% from just four years ago. And that 33% drop is pretty consistent with Raw's yearly ratings this year compared to four years ago. That's not good.

And bigt, I don't know why you'd go with snark for this. No one is saying this is the end of wrestling. I'd argue this past month has shown that there will always be an audience for what the WWE does, no matter how relatively bad it is.

But if you're a wrestling fan, and you're not concerned about a 33% drop in viewership in just four years, I mean, I don't know what to say.

I was messing around, broski. Trying to add some levity to what amounts to a very familiar whine-fest in low ratings discussions. My lolz didn't work. Sorry.


I understand you are "concerned" but the people that complain about low buyrates, attendances, and ratings really add nothing new to the discussion. It's all been said before. It just comes across as aimless whining to me at this point. WWE still does decent enough numbers and RAW and Smackdown are still among the highest rated shows on their respective networks. So the shows aint going anywhere and neither is the WWE.

But you are rightly entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I guess I just fail to see a valid opinion in "ratings are low... yeah..." type posts.

[Bull]

The Raw Supershows would suggest otherwise.

On the other hand, maybe not. Maybe they're really thrilled that they're beating summer shows like Hell's Kitchen, Rizzoli & Isles and repeats of Hawaii 5-O. If that's the bar they've set for Raw, then mission accomplished I guess.

My understanding for the Supershow thing was to try and get more people to watch Smackdown. You know, feature those guys on mondays so people might want to see them on fridays.

[Fantabulous]

My understanding for the Supershow thing was to try and get more people to watch Smackdown. You know, feature those guys on mondays so people might want to see them on fridays.

The idea was boost Raw's ratings. The problem is that, at best, only one guy from Smackdown (Orton) means anything because nobody else is treated like anyone super important. It also doesn't help that Smackdown guys consistently get treated like second-tier wrestlers when on the 'A' show so it does nothing to stop the perception of Smackdown being the secondary show rather than an equal to Raw.

[Teh_Showtime]

I don't think a 2.7 is that bad considering the NFL is the #1 sport in america

compared to the summer it wasn't a HUGE dropoff, they dipped below 3.0 a.couple times.

[juggaloninjalee]

I noticed last night that Netflix has some WWE videos.

I watched the Rise and Fall of WCW which was very interesting. Wish they went more in depth though. That's my only critique of that.

Also saw Ricky the Dragon Steamboats video which again was great. I really liked it and I felt it portrayed Steamboat as a guy who was one of the all time greats which he was.

I may watch another one tonight but this has me pretty happy right now. Hopefully they bring more WWE videos to Netflix.

[Hive]

Netflix has Rise and Fall of WCW now? Nice, better watch that. Watched a lot of their other wrestling documentaries, some good stuff here and there.

[juggaloninjalee]

Netflix has Rise and Fall of WCW now? Nice, better watch that. Watched a lot of their other wrestling documentaries, some good stuff here and there.

Which ones have you seen?

I have seen the Big Show one, Ricky Steamboat, and Death of WCW.

Plan on watching the 50 greatest superstars of all time, John Cena one, and top 20 personalities or whatever since 2000.

[ZMAN]

R&F of WCW is decent. It did feel like they spent the majority of it just bashing the hell out of the company though. I can't imagine any passionate WCW fan relying on that DVD as a good source of information. For me it was good, because I just remember hating WCW back in the day and being such an anti-WCW mark. But I imagine if I was actually a WCW fan, then I would **** all over that dvd. Pretty much all that I learned from it was that the people working there had their heads up their asses 90% of the time. Oh and some **** about Crocket promotions was in there too.

[Hive]

Which ones have you seen?

I have seen the Big Show one, Ricky Steamboat, and Death of WCW.

Plan on watching the 50 greatest superstars of all time, John Cena one, and top 20 personalities or whatever since 2000.

Well I have actually seen the WCW one before, it's just been a while.

On Netflix, I've seen most of the documentaries - except for the one about Cena, since he doesn't interest me. And the 50 greatest superstars, I just couldn't get through.

But watched Steamboat, Bret Hart, Big Show, Hardy Boyz... and I think that's pretty much all they have in terms of documentaries. They also have some mostly-matches stuff, like one with The Rock. I watched that as well, but I find the documentaries to be the most interesting.

[Hive]

R&F of WCW is decent. It did feel like they spent the majority of it just bashing the hell out of the company though. I can't imagine any passionate WCW fan relying on that DVD as a good source of information. For me it was good, because I just remember hating WCW back in the day and being such an anti-WCW mark. But I imagine if I was actually a WCW fan, then I would **** all over that dvd. Pretty much all that I learned from it was that the people working there had their heads up their asses 90% of the time. Oh and some **** about Crocket promotions was in there too.

Yeah it does bash WCW a lot. Not as much as the Monday Night Wars documentary, but still a lot. And I cannot for the love of it understand why a guy like Triple H, who worked there for like one day, has to featured so heavily on that dvd. Him bitching about losing to Alex Wright is nothing but arrogant crap, and shouldn't be there.

Still, it's better than nothing...

[djthefunkchris]

I was messing around, broski. Trying to add some levity to what amounts to a very familiar whine-fest in low ratings discussions. My lolz didn't work. Sorry.


I understand you are "concerned" but the people that complain about low buyrates, attendances, and ratings really add nothing new to the discussion. It's all been said before. It just comes across as aimless whining to me at this point. WWE still does decent enough numbers and RAW and Smackdown are still among the highest rated shows on their respective networks. So the shows aint going anywhere and neither is the WWE.

But you are rightly entitled to your opinion as I am mine. I guess I just fail to see a valid opinion in "ratings are low... yeah..." type posts.

Although I wouldn't put it that harshly, I do agree. As a point I made before stated, competition makes for better watching, and right now they have none and haven't since the end of WCW. Want them to do better shows, get TNA to be competitive somehow.... At least I think it would work.

The example used was a four year time period, and yet if you go back four years on this very board, you will see certain people saying the exact same thing then, and if you go back farther, you will see it again and again... It's kind of a "doom" discussion that has proven to be wrong over the years, at least in any amount of realistic time period. 20 years go by, they might fold, who knows... Vince won't be around forever, and really I don't expect it to stay where they are after he's actually done completely with the company, for whatever reason that would be. Perhaps someone better might take charge, but it's kind of hard for me to believe that, since the only one that come close had to spend more money then they made to compete.

I honestly don't expect Pro-Wrestling to stay at this level forever...

[Fantabulous]

The Rise and Fall of WCW documentary is one of those deals that seems informative on a superficial level but doesn't offer a lot beyond that. The problem is that to tell an accurate account of what happened with WCW's rise and fall would take a great deal of time and would also require acknowledging things WWE just isn't going to. It's a story that WWE do have the capability of telling but they lack the willingness to do so and there probably isn't enough of a market for the story that they'd see it was worth doing. Even with what they do put in the documentary, there's too much bull****ting, either because that's the spin they want to put or because they're not that worried about accuracy, to give it much of a recommendation. I can say it's a good for a laugh but only if you want to get a chuckle out of some very obvious bull****ting.

[bigtplaystew]

Macho Man's DVD on there is spectacular, as is The Rock's. The Rock's has full matches. All of them in fact.

Also, the Best of Nitro DVD is well worth watching. It's obviously got the post-takeover spin to it which annoys some people, but there are quality matches on there. The Jericho/Mysterio match is one of the better matches of that entire era if you ask me. Very good stuff.

[juggaloninjalee]

Macho Man's DVD on there is spectacular, as is The Rock's. The Rock's has full matches. All of them in fact.

Also, the Best of Nitro DVD is well worth watching. It's obviously got the post-takeover spin to it which annoys some people, but there are quality matches on there. The Jericho/Mysterio match is one of the better matches of that entire era if you ask me. Very good stuff.

Those are all on Netflix?

[bigtplaystew]

Those are all on Netflix?

Yep just do some searching they are all on netflix streaming. At least they WERE but I'm pretty sure they still are. There's some really good ones on there but for some reason the Cena one and the Steamboat one don't have the matches from the DVD on there.


A really good WWE produced doc is that "True Story of Wrestlemania" one thats on there. Pretty interesting.

Just know that every WWE produced doc has their spin on it. Doesn't make it all lies or anything, but just keep that in mind and you'll be entertained more easily.


I like the 50 greatest Superstars of All Time. Their order is B.S. but the little clips are entertaining to watch. It's done slightly out of storyline too so it's somewhat interesting. The Cage Matches one is great.

Yea their WWE library is fairly extensive. Also, Hunt to Kill and Knockout (Stone Cold movies) and the last two WWE produced films (Legendary and I am what I am) are on there if you're interested.

[Fantabulous]

I figure it goes here with him being fired, but Matt Hardy has been arrested again, on another DWI charge.

[juggaloninjalee]

Yep just do some searching they are all on netflix streaming. At least they WERE but I'm pretty sure they still are. There's some really good ones on there but for some reason the Cena one and the Steamboat one don't have the matches from the DVD on there.


A really good WWE produced doc is that "True Story of Wrestlemania" one thats on there. Pretty interesting.

Just know that every WWE produced doc has their spin on it. Doesn't make it all lies or anything, but just keep that in mind and you'll be entertained more easily.


I like the 50 greatest Superstars of All Time. Their order is B.S. but the little clips are entertaining to watch. It's done slightly out of storyline too so it's somewhat interesting. The Cage Matches one is great.

Yea their WWE library is fairly extensive. Also, Hunt to Kill and Knockout (Stone Cold movies) and the last two WWE produced films (Legendary and I am what I am) are on there if you're interested.

Yeah I have been able to enjoy them knowing they are somewhat biased so far. I love most things involving wrestling.

I figure it goes here with him being fired, but Matt Hardy has been arrested again, on another DWI charge.

I don't know what him and Jeffs problems are. They have blown so many good opportunities. They are a joke. I've never been a fan but these guys could be at the top of wrestling if they weren't such screw ups.

[bigtplaystew]

The Hardys problem? uhm... drugs...

[Hive]

But watched Steamboat, Bret Hart, Big Show, Hardy Boyz... and I think that's pretty much all they have in terms of documentaries. They also have some mostly-matches stuff, like one with The Rock. I watched that as well, but I find the documentaries to be the most interesting.

Oooh, forgot to mention the Bobby Heenan and Chris Jericho documentaries as well. Good stuff.

[michgcs]

Apparently Claudio Castagnoli has officially in FCW:

http://twitter.com/#!/AntonioCesaro

They changed his name, too. :(

(Thanks to the guys at gamefaqs for the heads up)

[Prophet]

So, technically not WWE related (although it does include hall of famer Harley Race, Nick Patrick, and allegedly, Del Wilkes, who was the Patriot), but last night, I got to watch the classic special that aired in 1998 entitled "Secrets of Pro Wrestling Revealed" last night.

I have to be honest, I kind of forgot just how bad it was. It was less revealing secrets, and more wrestling for dummies, however ... the costume design was fabulous. It's good for a laugh, if you have an hour to kill, too.

[Self]

The one done in the vein of "Magic's Secrets Revealed"? Dug that show as a young 'un. Fun times.

At least Claudio's name isn't too bad. More Italian that I'd expect, but there you go. I got used to Daniel Bryan. I struggled for 5 minutes the other day trying to remember Seth Rollins' indy name. I'll get used to this. As long as he stays European, uppercutting fools, I'll be happy.

[michgcs]

At least Claudio's name isn't too bad. More Italian that I'd expect, but there you go. I got used to Daniel Bryan. I struggled for 5 minutes the other day trying to remember Seth Rollins' indy name. I'll get used to this. As long as he stays European, uppercutting fools, I'll be happy.

I'm still crossing my fingers and hoping the Kings of Wrestling make it to the WWE.

[Prophet]

`at's the one, yeah. I remember watching it when it first aired, and being insulted ... although I don't know if it was because the show felt I wasn't smart enough to pick up on what they deemed secret, or if it was because the physical aspects were brushed off as playing in your back yard. Probably some combination of the two.

When I watched it last night, the biggest thing I remember (besides going "whoa, that's Harley Race!") was the small kid, Slither (who allegedly was Chris Daniels, but I doubt it), kept flopping his feet whenever he landed, and I kept thinking "shouldn't his feet be flat when he bumps?" Didn't find out until just now, which is what prompted my posting it here, that the Pitbulls from ECW, and Mike Modest were on the show as well.

[Moe Hunter]

"You don't really think the fans make their own signs, do you?"

So much BS!

[1234]

Apparently Claudio Castagnoli has officially in FCW:

http://twitter.com/#!/AntonioCesaro

They changed his name, too. :(

(Thanks to the guys at gamefaqs for the heads up)

As much as it pains me that Claudio will no longer be in ROH, I am happy for Claudio. He deserves this opportunity, and although I am struggling to imagine what gimmick he might play on the main roster, I think he has all the tools to make it big.

Wondering whether Hero has signed as well now.

[Comradebot]

As much as it pains me that Claudio will no longer be in ROH, I am happy for Claudio. He deserves this opportunity, and although I am struggling to imagine what gimmick he might play on the main roster, I think he has all the tools to make it big.

Wondering whether Hero has signed as well now.

Haven't seen anything that says he has...


That, and he's always struck me as someone that'd completely flop in the WWE. He puts on good matches, that's about as far as I've seen his entertainment value go for me. He's "eh" on the microphone... nothing really there that'd help him stand out in the WWE. Generic look+average microphone skills+at least he rocks in the ring!=not a fit for the WWE. He's a career independent star, and for good reason. Not every indie darling is getting "screwed" by not getting signed and then pushed to the top of the WWE. ;)



Claudio, on the other hand... always been pretty high on him. He has an absolutely fantastic look going for him, great in-ring worker... yeah, good chance he sees some success from this.

[1234]

Haven't seen anything that says he has...


That, and he's always struck me as someone that'd completely flop in the WWE. He puts on good matches, that's about as far as I've seen his entertainment value go for me. He's "eh" on the microphone... nothing really there that'd help him stand out in the WWE. Generic look+average microphone skills+at least he rocks in the ring!=not a fit for the WWE. He's a career independent star, and for good reason. Not every indie darling is getting "screwed" by not getting signed and then pushed to the top of the WWE. ;)



Claudio, on the other hand... always been pretty high on him. He has an absolutely fantastic look going for him, great in-ring worker... yeah, good chance he sees some success from this.

Not saying he has to be signed and pushed heavily, or that he even has to get signed (Selfishly, I would quite enjoy him staying on the indies :p) .Personally I just want the WWE to replace the people they have with 'Generic Look + Average Mic Skills + Average In The Ring' with people like Chris, who is actually a great talent in ring.

I would take Chris Hero over the likes of Heath Slater every day of the week.

[mike b]

I don't know about the rest of you but i would kind of like to see Mark Henry as a monster heel champion.

I think it is time.

[Comradebot]

I don't know about the rest of you but i would kind of like to see Mark Henry as a monster heel champion.

I think it is time.

The only thing its time for with Mark Henry and the WWE is for them to stop trying. I'm a massive big man mark, that's no secret.



But even I think Mark Henry blows. They've been trying for, what, a decade and a half to get him over? I'll give the WWE credit for booking him well as a monster... but he still sucks.

[Fantabulous]

Chris Hero is a top-level talent when it comes to wrestling. His mic work can be very entertaining and funny but Hero's main problem is that he looks out of place in the glitzy world of the current WWE product. If this was the early-to-mid 80s then he'd be a great fit but the look and the style they like isn't what Hero does best. The fact he does look out of place would be a strength in that it makes him stand out and that helps in getting you over with the people because you're unique. The trouble with that is WWE don't want people standing out or being unique. They like a certain style, a certain look to their talent and anything that doesn't fit that is deemed as 'wrong' and doesn't get a real chance.

Claudio would probably get a lot of chances to make it because he has height but at the same time he has the tag of being an 'Indy darling' and WWE do like to take people like that and turn them into jobbers or otherwise make them jokes so they can 'prove' that such people can't hack it in the big leagues.

"Secrets of Pro Wrestling Revealed" was just awful tripe. Absolutely terrible on every level.

Mark Henry is a career midcarder at this point. I think the time for him to have a credible run as a monster heel champion has long since passed. If this was five or six years ago, it might have worked, but he's been in the midcard slot for so long that that's where most people see him. He's firmly in the position of the monster midcarder who gets the occasional big push so that the current top babyface can look strong in vanquishing him back to the midcard.

[milamber]

I'd like to Henry beat Orton at NOC, then have Sheamus beat Henry and Orton in a Triple Threat Match at HIAC. Sheamus is being primed for a title shot in the near future but I can't see Face Sheamus getting a shot at Face Orton.

[lazorbeak]

Really baffled by anyone that couldn't see Hero fitting in with WWE's current direction. I mean I guess he's not 25, but other then that I don't see where he's all that different from what WWE wants out of their workers. He has a far better look and is stronger on the mic than Daniel Bryan, he's gotten himself into great shape without looking like a wellness policy violation, and he can work. I mean I don't think anybody would be too excited about signing 2002 Chris Hero, but 2011 Chris Hero looks like he could realistically main event after a couple years in WWE. I guess he could always be a bust, but his upside is pretty high.

[bigtplaystew]

Really baffled by anyone that couldn't see Hero fitting in with WWE's current direction. I mean I guess he's not 25, but other then that I don't see where he's all that different from what WWE wants out of their workers. He has a far better look and is stronger on the mic than Daniel Bryan, he's gotten himself into great shape without looking like a wellness policy violation, and he can work. I mean I don't think anybody would be too excited about signing 2002 Chris Hero, but 2011 Chris Hero looks like he could realistically main event after a couple years in WWE. I guess he could always be a bust, but his upside is pretty high.

Agree 100%.

Kings.

Reign.

Supreme.

[Wrestling Century]

As much as it pains me that Claudio will no longer be in ROH, I am happy for Claudio. He deserves this opportunity, and although I am struggling to imagine what gimmick he might play on the main roster, I think he has all the tools to make it big.

Wondering whether Hero has signed as well now.

What pains me the most is that he won't be wrestling for Chikara anymore. :(

[Fantabulous]

So it turns out Rock really is wrestling at Survivor Series. They really need to be careful with this or it will take a lot of shine off of Wrestlemania.

[Teh_Showtime]

I called it.

Sin Caras in a point off. <_<

[OldStingberg]

I really liked Smackdown tonight. Good show. Michael Cole even tried to not bury Daniel Bryan.

[bigtplaystew]

So it turns out Rock really is wrestling at Survivor Series. They really need to be careful with this or it will take a lot of shine off of Wrestlemania.

Haha never been so happy to be so wrong :-)

Yep the fact that they are teaming up I think is pretty awesome. I agree though if the Rock looks a lil too rusty or gets some botches it's gonna hurt more than it helps them I think.


That said, as a fan, I'm insanely excited.

[milamber]

Bryan and Fake Sin Cara put on a nice aggressive match. I hope one of the Sin Cara's will get a costume soon so they can wrestle. Funny that Cole is giving Bryan credit and Booker is still supporting Fake Sin Cara.

Barrett's improving in the ring lately and Gabriel is coming along nicely.

Bourne v Truth was a good teaser for the first tag championship match in a long time I actually care about. I think Air Boom will win and the rivalry will continue.

That was fun seeing Henry decimate Orton and all the SD jobbers.

My avatar will show you who I want to be the World Heavyweight Champ before the year's out.

[soxfan93]

So it turns out Rock really is wrestling at Survivor Series. They really need to be careful with this or it will take a lot of shine off of Wrestlemania.

This is my biggest problem. The allure of the WrestleMania match, to me, is the fact that it will be more than 8 years after he last wrestled. Now that he's wrestling at Survivor Series, and probably the Royal Rumble, the match won't feel as big. It will still be huge, but it'll feel more like Cena vs. Orton than Rock vs. Cena.

[Teh_Showtime]

Rock vs Cena will sell regardless.

Now add Rock onto SVS and 2 big PPVs sell and not 1.

I think it was a good thing because SVS buyrates have been poor prompting a name change that almost happened

[Mr Rager]

Spoiler regarding The Rock's role at Survivor Series (most probably know anyway, but I figured I'd highlight it in white anyway for anybody who wants to know as little as possible):

The Rock and Cena will be allies in a 5 vs 5 match.

I don't think it will take too much of a shine from The Rock at next year's WrestleMania. I doubt he'll even be in the ring for too long.

[Fantabulous]

Rock vs Cena will sell regardless.

It'll still sell, but it would have added something special for it to be Rock's first match back in eight years. You can say that the match at Survivor Series has it now, but that specialness is not going to mean as much when it's an elimination match rather than the main event of Wrestlemania. And is it really worth taking something away from the Wrestlemania match just to artificially boost the buy rate of one PPV in a gesture that is going to ultimately mean nothing in the long run because the same problems that are causing the downturn in numbers are still going to be there?

[Teh_Showtime]

But it will boost Raw's ratings leading up to Survivor Series too. The match itself could also add to their dead feud and help it pick up earlier

[OldStingberg]

I think anything they'll lose from WM, which I think is between minimal and non-existent, will easily be made up for in the increase in SS. I just don't think that there will be many, if any, who around WM time will be thinking, "I'm not so excited about Rock/Cena now because I saw The Rock wrestle five months ago."

[Fantabulous]

I can see I need to really simplify things...

The Rock's return to action after eight years will have a special vibe to it. It'll feel like something special because it will be something special. Once he makes that big return, that vibe? It's gone and isn't coming back, even if he does stay out of the ring for four months before coming back for Wrestlemania. The point I am making is that I wouldn't take that from the Wrestlemania match just to artificially spike business for a few weeks when it's only going to return to normal very quickly because the real problems won't have been addressed.

Will Rock vs. Cena still be big? Yes, and I never said it wouldn't be. Will it still draw big? Yes, and I never said it wouldn't. What I am saying is that won't have is that Rock comeback vibe to it, which would have added something special and made it feel a little bit bigger.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Well let's attribute that comeback vibe to Survivor Series then. It'd be fun to instill some serious hype onto that PPV, it's needed some for years due to those cookie-cutter throw-it-in 5v5 matches with little relevance.

Rock vs. Cena at WrestleMania can be kept for something else. Maybe they're gonna crunch the feud up to that point, and make it personal, or.. just add another layer to it.

[soxfan93]

I guess we'll take this as official confirmation:

http://fcwwrestling.info/cesaro1.html

[OldStingberg]

I can see I need to really simplify things...

The Rock's return to action after eight years will have a special vibe to it. It'll feel like something special because it will be something special. Once he makes that big return, that vibe? It's gone and isn't coming back, even if he does stay out of the ring for four months before coming back for Wrestlemania. The point I am making is that I wouldn't take that from the Wrestlemania match just to artificially spike business for a few weeks when it's only going to return to normal very quickly because the real problems won't have been addressed.

Will Rock vs. Cena still be big? Yes, and I never said it wouldn't be. Will it still draw big? Yes, and I never said it wouldn't. What I am saying is that won't have is that Rock comeback vibe to it, which would have added something special and made it feel a little bit bigger.

And I see I need to act condescending and simplify things for you:

I disagree. It's ok. Reasonable people can disagree.

[soxfan93]

Like I said earlier, I agree with Fantabulous here. Obviously, putting The Rock in a match at Survivor Series won't take buys away from WrestleMania, but that's really beside the point. For 6 months now, they've been building up the match by saying that it'll be the first time he'll wrestle in over 7 years. However, if he wrestles at Survivor Series, that allure is gone. Now it's just a big match between John Cena and The Rock, who will be in the ring for the first time in... 5 months. That's nowhere near as big as it would be otherwise.

Again, of course it won't take buys away from WrestleMania. It just seems to me like it's a cheap way to gain some extra Survivor Series buys, not to mention overall detracts from one of the things that makes their 'Mania match so special.

[Teh_Showtime]

It will only be a cheap way if they hotshot the idea of him wrestling.

The way I see it is maybe HHH has a super heel stable and Rock is doing an appearance and gets attacked. He joins forces with Cena (and probably Punk) to take down the stable that beat him down.

Seems like it's perfectly logical if they do something like that

[djthefunkchris]

Sounds like an incredibly good opportunity to me, especially if The Rock becomes more active in the WWE from that time period onward.

I can see John and Dwayne in the ring, working together but at the same time, not trusting each other at all... I even see them losing this match because of that fact. They start looking at each other, ignoring their actual opponants, opponants take advantage of it and win.

Each PPV, something else happens, till finally they have the Battle of Battle's on the biggest stage of Wrestling, Wrestlemania!

I just don't see this as a bad thing at all.. I see it totally opposite "if" certain things happen. It could definately go a totally different route, and not the way I see it, and still be good... but I do understand that at any point something could happen to make it bad (Like The Rock getting a six month injury to ruin the whole thing, lol).

[Fantabulous]

Like I said earlier, I agree with Fantabulous here. Obviously, putting The Rock in a match at Survivor Series won't take buys away from WrestleMania, but that's really beside the point. For 6 months now, they've been building up the match by saying that it'll be the first time he'll wrestle in over 7 years. However, if he wrestles at Survivor Series, that allure is gone. Now it's just a big match between John Cena and The Rock, who will be in the ring for the first time in... 5 months. That's nowhere near as big as it would be otherwise.

Again, of course it won't take buys away from WrestleMania. It just seems to me like it's a cheap way to gain some extra Survivor Series buys, not to mention overall detracts from one of the things that makes their 'Mania match so special.
This is the post of a man who gets it. :)

[Fleisch]

I will probably still have no interest in buying the Survivor Series event, even if The Rock is on the card so don't think everyone is going to buy it just to see The Rock, not everyone has the money to watch one guy wrestle maybe 5 minutes in total so I don't expect buyrates spike too much unless there is a solid card in total. Not all of us are going to eat up every ounce of BS from WWE and part with money we don't have just to see The Rock and Cena tag up. I would however pay to see The Rock kick Cenas ass.

I'd also like to see how this is going to pan out. Why Cena and Rock will be teaming, will the opposing team have some relevance or whether it'll just be "Rocks agreed to appear, chuck him into a match in the hopes of bigger buyrates with no rhyme or reason as to why" which lets face it, I wouldn't put past Creative. That definately would take the shine off a Rock return. And if that ends up being the case, you will see some of those people who have returned to watching WWE recently switch off again. Right now my interest has been peaked with some pretty good storylines going at the moment with CM Punk/HHH/Nash, Sin Cara & Sin Cara in "The Faceless Face-off" as well as the Cody Rhodes & Ted DiBiase stories being the ones that I'm enjoying, and why did I get back into WWE? Yes The Rocks return, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one who got back into it for that reason... I certainly didn't tune in to see "Mr Cheap Pop" John Cena and his... er... wait I'm not gonna turn this into a Cena bashing.

[djthefunkchris]

This is the post of a man who gets it. :)

The only problem I have with your guys reasoning is... well, I could care less about how long he's been out of the ring, and when he debuts back into a real match... Fact is, I care more about CM Punk right now then Cena or Rock, and I don't think I'm alone.

Do I want to see The Rock wrestler? Definately do... I want to see him back in the ring for a good while. Do I care when that happens? YES!! The sooner the better! Do I agree with Fleish? Yes!

The thing is, the match at Wrestlemania means nothing to me right now, because nothing "New" has really happened about it. Something "New" has to happen, or I won't care at all.

[Teh_Showtime]

I will probably still have no interest in buying the Survivor Series event, even if The Rock is on the card so don't think everyone is going to buy it just to see The Rock, not everyone has the money to watch one guy wrestle maybe 5 minutes in total so I don't expect buyrates spike too much unless there is a solid card in total.


Rock boosted WM probably by a couple hundred thousand buys and he was just HOSTING the event. More people didn't buy it because it was WM, compared to last WM more people bought it just for the Rock (and Austin involvement)

I think you are underestimating his value here. Throw his return into SVS along with teaming with someone he is in a feud with seems like money to me.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I dunno, it's not even four months ago that people wanted Rock to wrestle at SummerSlam, against Miz or some other bright star. Or they whined at the beginning about waiting for a year and wanted Rock and Cena to actually face off at SummerSlam. I agree now their Mania match won't come across as that special. But is it that big of a detriment? it's gonna boost SS buys and people will still tune in at Mania for their showdown. If that's the small drawback they wanna do to complement both SS and Mania hype, then I'm all for it. There are still people on FB whining like babies that Rock isn't back full-time, so if anything it'll appease them too.

IMO it's much better than seeing them take shots at each other through social networking means, which was bright at the start but got into a lull real fast. They'll have to change it up somehow.

[soxfan93]

The only problem I have with your guys reasoning is... well, I could care less about how long he's been out of the ring, and when he debuts back into a real match... Fact is, I care more about CM Punk right now then Cena or Rock, and I don't think I'm alone.

I'm with you on that one. I honestly never liked The Rock anyway.

[ZMAN]

I really don't see what the big deal is, ffs.

It makes sense story-wise, because it would seem like if you're a wrestler that you would want to get in a warm-up match where four of the best got your back. It should also build up tension between Rock/Cena because you know something is going to happen that has them pissed off at each other in the end. It gives us a small preview of WM, adds to the feud, and gives these guys something to talk about for the 5 months going into WM.

Srsly, what the hell are these guys supposed to talk about if there's nothing in between now and WM?

Rock doing nothing until WM is the most boring scenario that I have ever heard, and it would not make me want to see WM more than if he had done something.

[Jaysin]

Chris Shore posted this in his Smackdown Hitlist on Prowrestling.net, but the part I bolded I feel really holds a lot of truth to it.

R-Truth's re-mix: Yes, R-Truth's re-mix of his stupid rap entrance. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to hear this ever week. I'm not even sure I want to hear it again. But this first time, with Miz's ass acting a fool in the background as Truth's heater, was the definition of a hit. I laughed until the match ended. Which, admittedly, made me want to cry, but that's not the point. Sometimes we get so serious about the product that we forget to be entertained. This was one of those times that just worked.

It makes me wonder why everyone has to analyze everything all the time. Why is it so hard to just sit back and relax and enjoy yourself?

[OldStingberg]

Like I said earlier, I agree with Fantabulous here. Obviously, putting The Rock in a match at Survivor Series won't take buys away from WrestleMania, but that's really beside the point. For 6 months now, they've been building up the match by saying that it'll be the first time he'll wrestle in over 7 years. However, if he wrestles at Survivor Series, that allure is gone. Now it's just a big match between John Cena and The Rock, who will be in the ring for the first time in... 5 months. That's nowhere near as big as it would be otherwise.

Again, of course it won't take buys away from WrestleMania. It just seems to me like it's a cheap way to gain some extra Survivor Series buys, not to mention overall detracts from one of the things that makes their 'Mania match so special.

How much of an allure is it if won't take buys away from WM at all?

The real allure is only that The Rock is wrestling, not that The Rock is wrestling for the first time in seven years or whatever. That's why his return at SS won't take away a single buy from WM.

[soxfan93]

How much of an allure is it if won't take buys away from WM at all?

The real allure is only that The Rock is wrestling, not that The Rock is wrestling for the first time in seven years or whatever. That's why his return at SS won't take away a single buy from WM.

Okay, let me give you a different example:

Brock Lesnar agrees to return to the WWE for a main event match at WrestleMania against The Undertaker. The match is announced months in advance. If Lesnar officially competed in a match at Survivor Series, wouldn't that take away some of the value of the match at WrestleMania? It's no longer Lesnar's return match, it's simply a match against The Undertaker, regardless of how big it is.

One of the major selling points of the match was that The Rock was returning to in-ring competition. Now that he's wrestling at Survivor Series, that is no longer the case. Will it cost them WM buys? Of course not. Will I buy it? Of course I will. But the fact is, I won't be nearly as excited as I would have been if it was his first match.

[Fantabulous]

Okay, let me give you a different example:

Brock Lesnar agrees to return to the WWE for a main event match at WrestleMania against The Undertaker. The match is announced months in advance. If Lesnar officially competed in a match at Survivor Series, wouldn't that take away some of the value of the match at WrestleMania? It's no longer Lesnar's return match, it's simply a match against The Undertaker, regardless of how big it is.

One of the major selling points of the match was that The Rock was returning to in-ring competition. Now that he's wrestling at Survivor Series, that is no longer the case. Will it cost them WM buys? Of course not. Will I buy it? Of course I will. But the fact is, I won't be nearly as excited as I would have been if it was his first match.
You make complete sense but I fear you're talking to a brick wall on this one.

[soxfan93]

You make complete sense but I fear you're talking to a brick wall on this one.

And I'm sure they feel the same way. The IWC at its finest. :p

[LoNdOn]

I think WWE should book Brodus Clay in the position that Mark Henry is currently filling. Whilst Mark Henry is doing a fine job, I would rather see someone who is fresh be given the ball to run with it. Brodus looks like a killer and has been pretty great on the microphone from what I have seen from his time in NXT.

[OldStingberg]

You make complete sense but I fear you're talking to a brick wall on this one.

Why are you being such a douche? We disagree, deal with it. There's no need to simplify things for anyone, there's no need to call anyone a brick wall because they have a different opinion.

[Teh_Showtime]

I think WWE should book Brodus Clay in the position that Mark Henry is currently filling. Whilst Mark Henry is doing a fine job, I would rather see someone who is fresh be given the ball to run with it. Brodus looks like a killer and has been pretty great on the microphone from what I have seen from his time in NXT.

I have been high on Clay since he was Del Rio's bodyguard earlier this year. I think he could get really over as a heel and he has decent mic skills and charisma (which Zeke and Mason Ryan both lack).

His athleticism is top notch for someone of his size and he has a great moveset. I really hope they give him the ball because I can see him as the next big monster heel for another 5-10 years.

[milamber]

The way I see it is maybe HHH has a super heel stable and Rock is doing an appearance and gets attacked. He joins forces with Cena (and probably Punk) to take down the stable that beat him down.

My fantasy stables:

HHH, Miz, Ziggler, ADR, Truth

Cena, Punk, Rock, Jericho (or Riley if Jericho never returns), Morrrison.

As for the Rock: It's just another Mania match for me. I'm more interested in seeing them put someone like Miz, Ziggler, ADR etc. against the Undertaker. Who will Punk face? What will Bryan do with his briefcase? Will Sheamus be in a title match? I actually prefer the Rock coming back sooner to wrestle because he's not very relevant at this point. They're relying on his reputation and mainstream popularity. Fans who don't care about The Rock might need to be convinced he he's worth seeing in-ring at Mania. And any boost to PPVs between now and Mania is a good thing in my book.

[Mr Rager]

I think the point that many are making (and I agree with it) is that Cena vs The Rock doesn't need to be The Rock's return match. It has enough going for it - it's the one of the figureheads of the last generation verses the figurehead of this generation. Probably two of the biggest merchandise sellers of all time, taking each other on for the first time ever. In The Rock's hometown. Possibly for the WWE Championship. I honestly never even thought of it as 'The Rock's comeback match', and WWE never billed it as such. I don't see the issue at all.

soxfan93 mentioned that he's a lot less excited about the Wrestlemania match as he would have been if it were The Rock's comeback match, and I suppose I can understand that, but for me it almost has the opposite effect - I couldn't be much more excited about the match either way, and booking The Rock's return in another lesser match, if you like, makes me excited about Survivor Series. With The Rock returning to in-ring competition at Survivor Series, that almost certainly means that I'll be buying a PPV which I probably wouldn't have otherwise.

Putting aside the issue for a second, people also haven't mentioned at all that this promises an interesting development in the Cena/Rock feud. Could there be a turn either way? I'd guess not, but you don't know at the moment. I'm looking forward to seeing how the alignment plays out - the only thing that I wish is that they'd kept it under wraps until the week or so before. Advertised The Rock's appearance, but not the circumstances of his appearance.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Okay, let me give you a different example:

Brock Lesnar agrees to return to the WWE for a main event match at WrestleMania against The Undertaker. The match is announced months in advance. If Lesnar officially competed in a match at Survivor Series, wouldn't that take away some of the value of the match at WrestleMania? It's no longer Lesnar's return match, it's simply a match against The Undertaker, regardless of how big it is.

One of the major selling points of the match was that The Rock was returning to in-ring competition. Now that he's wrestling at Survivor Series, that is no longer the case. Will it cost them WM buys? Of course not. Will I buy it? Of course I will. But the fact is, I won't be nearly as excited as I would have been if it was his first match.

The difference with that scenario is that Rock stated that he was back and that misled a lot of fans into thinking more involvement. You'd suppose even Cena thought as much hence why he called him out on it. So come to think of it, maybe that's what resulted in most of what I said in my previous post.

The allure may be gone to you but to a lot of fans(mostly casual fans), it may be different.

Also /nod to Jaysin. You could say that in itself may be the inner fan in ourselves :p

[Jaysin]

Also /nod to Jaysin. You could say that in itself may be the inner fan in ourselves :p

I think I'm too sleepy...what? I'm out of it :p

Can you rephrase that bit?

[djthefunkchris]

I think the point that many are making (and I agree with it) is that Cena vs The Rock doesn't need to be The Rock's return match. It has enough going for it - it's the one of the figureheads of the last generation verses the figurehead of this generation. Probably two of the biggest merchandise sellers of all time, taking each other on for the first time ever. In The Rock's hometown. Possibly for the WWE Championship. I honestly never even thought of it as 'The Rock's comeback match', and WWE never billed it as such. I don't see the issue at all.

soxfan93 mentioned that he's a lot less excited about the Wrestlemania match as he would have been if it were The Rock's comeback match, and I suppose I can understand that, but for me it almost has the opposite effect - I couldn't be much more excited about the match either way, and booking The Rock's return in another lesser match, if you like, makes me excited about Survivor Series. With The Rock returning to in-ring competition at Survivor Series, that almost certainly means that I'll be buying a PPV which I probably wouldn't have otherwise.

Putting aside the issue for a second, people also haven't mentioned at all that this promises an interesting development in the Cena/Rock feud. Could there be a turn either way? I'd guess not, but you don't know at the moment. I'm looking forward to seeing how the alignment plays out - the only thing that I wish is that they'd kept it under wraps until the week or so before. Advertised The Rock's appearance, but not the circumstances of his appearance.

Actually, that was my point earlier. I'm not really interested in Cena or Rock right now, but perhaps something happening before then, such as at Summer Slam, might renew some interest in it for me.

To me it has the exact opposite effect, meaning if they don't do something before Wrestlemania, I won't be interested in THAT match at all... I want to have a reason to invest in that match, and perhaps root for one or the other. Right now, everything's old... it's been what, six month's since anything developed between them. It's time to start the build up now.

And to be totally honest... I never thought of Wrestlemania being The Rock's "comeback" match either. I remember talking about it in this very thread, how the closer we come to Wrestlemania, the more we will probably see of him, and the fued between him and John Cena evolve. All of a sudden that's a "bad" thing? The sooner the guy gets in the ring as an in ring competitor, the better IMO. The sooner they start fueding, the sooner they start going back and forth again at each other, the sooner they do their finishers on each other, the better. I want them to be going at it so bad by the time Wrestlemania get's here, that they have security holding them back.... I want them to build this up in a huge way, not just have The Rock show up for "Wrestlemania".

[djthefunkchris]

I think I'm too sleepy...what? I'm out of it :p

Can you rephrase that bit?

I believe he's talking about this post:

Chris Shore posted this in his Smackdown Hitlist on Prowrestling.net, but the part I bolded I feel really holds a lot of truth to it.

R-Truth's re-mix: Yes, R-Truth's re-mix of his stupid rap entrance. Don't get me wrong, I don't want to hear this ever week. I'm not even sure I want to hear it again. But this first time, with Miz's ass acting a fool in the background as Truth's heater, was the definition of a hit. I laughed until the match ended. Which, admittedly, made me want to cry, but that's not the point. Sometimes we get so serious about the product that we forget to be entertained. This was one of those times that just worked.

It makes me wonder why everyone has to analyze everything all the time. Why is it so hard to just sit back and relax and enjoy yourself?

And I agree.

[Jaysin]

I believe he's talking about this post:



And I agree.

Oh, I knew what post he was referring to. I just didn't really know what his post was saying beyond that he agreed :p

[Teh_Showtime]

Tag champs win by DQ after A Truth goes nuts on ref. Faces used a lot of heel spots

Cody retains in a good length match but crowd kind of bored.

[Teh_Showtime]

Xian is awesome. Lobster Head chants in the crowd lol

[Teh_Showtime]

Ziggler steals the pin after Swagger did the dirty work. Nice match with nearfalls and good drama.

[Teh_Showtime]

Henry just won clean...

[GhostDogg]

The Apocalypse has just occured ladies and Gentleman.

I was actually waiting for Daniel Bryan to cashing it in on him..

(and on a Unrelated note...Shouldnt they just call the new Hugh Jackman movie "Rock em Sock em Robots?)

[MrCanada]

I think Henry literally just proved everyone wrong.

Some people are going to claim they thought he could be good from day 1. But no one thought Sexual Chocalate had any true promise.

A great example of a guy chugging along and getting better.

His matches are good for a big guy, his mic work appeared out of no where back in ECW, I'm so happy that someone is being rewarded for hardwork.

[Teh_Showtime]

Kelly getting BOOED out of the Areng in Beth's hometown. It's like MITB on a smaller scale. No way she wins

Edit: How did they let her win? Terrible

[MrCanada]

on a Unrelated note...Shouldnt they just call the new Hugh Jackman movie "Rock em Sock em Robots?)

Yes!



Cant believe they didn't have Beth win, or do a more screwy finish.

[Teh_Showtime]

Basic Cena formula match so far gets you cant wrestle chants

[GhostDogg]

WHAT THE HELL??

Now look, I dont like ADR, as much as the next person,
but for Cena to win...again....


HUGE MISTAKE WWE...

[Teh_Showtime]

ADR is now a worse champ than Swagger was.

Cena wins

[ThexEffect]

Ugh its getting old..

[Wrestling Century]

WHAT THE HELL??

Now look, I dont like ADR, as much as the next person,
but for Cena to win...again....


HUGE MISTAKE WWE...

:mad: I was looking foward to a good title reign from ADR, but WWE didn't even give him a chance to take the ball and run with it.....well, I guess he's going to moved back down to the same card position as Jack Swagger now.

[GhostDogg]

Screw firing Trips as the COO,

They need to fire who ever is the BOOKER (not The BOOK'AH, but the Booker)

because I can book a better show in my sleep.

The "E" is slipping back into mediocrity once again..



Unless. ..(Possible Story alert)

The person "Pulling the strings" wanted Cena to win the title,but they needed ADR as a "Stepping stone" to get the title off of Punk, just so they can get it back on Cena. And I bet that some "Screwy finish" is going to have Trips Lose. And Cena will be a corner stone of everything.

Well...it a perfect world anyway. ...This make me wanna play TEW.

:)

[Teh_Showtime]

the worse part is that with Awesome Truth in the tag divison he doesn't even have challengers. ADR and nobody else to feud with.

[GhostDogg]

Personally.

The WWE needs to beef up thier Tag Team division..SERIOUSLY

I mean Air Boom is a good tag team, (just a crappy name)
Awesome Truth is ok..

but If I was the E. this is who I would go after.

Kings of Wrestling.
The Briscoes
The Young Bucks
Beer Money (if possible)
All Night Xpress

Basically, they need to bring back the prominence back to the tag team division, because the Team division hasnt been taken seriously since the EARLY 90's

[GhostDogg]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!


CM PUNK vs Trips H is Brutal...
Flying Elbow from the top rope to the Spanish Announce table...


HOLY S***!!!

[Teh_Showtime]

possibly the most overbooked match ever?

[GhostDogg]

Indeed.

Wait..I spoke too soon.

KEVIN NASH...


OVER BOOKED..completely..

EDIT...

this is CONFUSING... AT BEST

[GhostDogg]

SMH at the last match...

Trips Win....

(with 3 run ins, 2 referee's and Mr. Endevoured)

What the hell am I supposed to think about this?

[MrCanada]

What did I just see?

I dont really understand...

And did Triple H really need to come back and beat CM Punk?

The ending HAD to be Pedigree-Pin right?

HHH might be back to his burrying ways I fear.

[Teh_Showtime]

This is exactly why the AE is overrated.

Too many run ins just becomes stupid.

[OldStingberg]

I honestly can not believe that just happened. With as little credit as I give the WWE, even I didn't think they'd possibly have HHH go over Punk clean(ish) without someone turning heel on Punk. Wow.

[Nedew]

The run-ins just made no sense. Miz and Truth try to have Punk pin Triple H, but then later when Punk was gonna get the 3 count, Truth pulled him out? NO SENSE.

[OldStingberg]

This PPV was like Money in the Bank, but the exact opposite.

The tag match was terrible.They scuttled what would have been one of the biggest (and only) pops of the night, an Air Boom win, for some stupid finish that involved Air Boom acting like heels and Awesome Truth furthering a silly gimmick.

They did nothing to move Ziggler/Swagger forward at all, let alone resolve the damn thing in any way that made sense.

They didn't even let Beth Phoenix pick up the damn win in her hometown.

They totally and inexplicably destroyed Alberto Del Rio, one of their best hopes for a future star. Almost overnight they turned him from a bad ass fighting champion to a total weasel who couldn't win a single clean match. Cena got the better of him in the entrance, in the intro, and in the match, giving ADR nothing except one of the worst title reigns in WWE history.

And then they did the whole thing with HHH and Punk, further making sure CM Punk doesn't succeed in doing the WWE's work for them and turning himself into a bona fide superstar.

I am blown away by how terrible that was. I didn't have high expectations, but even I wouldn't have thought it would have went like this.

[Teh_Showtime]

I agree witn you except on Ziggler/Swagger. I can very well see it getting physical at Raw and evolving.

Im most dissapointed in Cena. He buries ADR for a month on the mic and then in the match too.

[OldStingberg]

I agree witn you except on Ziggler/Swagger. I can very well see it getting physical at Raw and evolving.

I've got two issues with this feud.

1) It's not going anywhere. It's literally been a month of the exact same thing. Ziggler and Swagger get in each other's way somehow. Ok, let's go somewhere with that. But instead they just keep getting in each other's way. One show they had two segments spinning those same wheels in place.

2) They can't do a heel/heel feud, so one guy has to turn, but both guys have been acting like complete twits, so neither is really prepared to turn. Where can they go with this?

[Teh_Showtime]

The crowd has been begging for Swagger to turn since WM. He could pull it off because he is a legit heel too, who wins clean.

[sanityisforbidden]

Lets put it this way.

The tag match served its purpose, and for what it was it was a great match.

The Intercontential title match could of gone either way, I expect to see the title on Dibiase within three months.

The US Title match again, served its purpose, and it was a great match either way to me.

Mark Henry becoming the World Champion was great, and it made him look really strong. 6 months ago Mark Henry was a joke, and a footnote for everybody else. These past 6 months they have given him on hell of a push, and the ending to that match was perfect.

The Diva's match is the one part of that show that genuinely pissed me off. Beth should of won. I imagine she might win tomorrow on Raw.

The WWE Championship match, while predictable is going to allow Alberto Del Rio to win the title when they go to Mexico later this year.

The final match was overbooked yes, but to a point of genius. It started out great, and Triple H and CM Punk had their 20 minutes to get in each other faces and tear it apart. The Miz and R-Truth coming out ties back into that first match, and the storyline between these two anyway with the conspiracy theory. Scott Armstrong punching The Miz was one of my favorite moments of the night. Anyway... so the refs out and Johnny Ace comes out to restore order, as Triple H and CM Punk get up and unite against Miz and Truth, Triple H hits the pedigree on CM Punk and the referee comes running out... but wait Johnny Ace tells him to check on Armstrong. CM Punk hits the GTS, and Ace sends the ref in... the match goes on, and suddenly we see Ace text Nash, who came out and attacked both men. Triple H ends up winning, to continue the storyline, and still have Triple H AND CM Punk face. Say what you will but i'll go with what Paul Heyman said on twitter.

HeymanHustle Paul Heyman on Twitter
I thought @CMPunk and HHH (and all the others involved) put on one helluva show. It took 3 Pedigrees and a Jack Knife to beat Punk.

I know a lot of people are pissed @CMPunk got pinned, but if you're going to get beat, isn't that the way to do it?

Superb show from my point of view and the third or fourth best ppv in terms of ppv's this year.

[OldStingberg]

The crowd has been begging for Swagger to turn since WM. He could pull it off because he is a legit heel too, who wins clean.

But Swagger's the one actively campaigning for Vicki Guerrero's services. That seems like a terrible setup for a face turn.

[alphadraighon]

Don't know about anyone else, but I love the idea of Mark Henry as World Champion. I realize he's not the greatest "entertainer" or wrestler out there, but as an unstoppable monster heel, he's great. I've always been a fan of a monster champion.

[OldStingberg]

Don't know about anyone else, but I love the idea of Mark Henry as World Champion. I realize he's not the greatest "entertainer" or wrestler out there, but as an unstoppable monster heel, he's great. I've always been a fan of a monster champion.

I thought Henry totally crushed his post-match promo. I was very impressed. Best part of the night.

[The Final Countdown]

Don't know about anyone else, but I love the idea of Mark Henry as World Champion. I realize he's not the greatest "entertainer" or wrestler out there, but as an unstoppable monster heel, he's great. I've always been a fan of a monster champion.
I hate it. I think they did a very good job building him up the past few months, but I'd have much rather seen a fresh face in the role. I just don't care about Mark Henry.

ADR losing to Cena is just terrible. HHH beating Punk doesn't bother me. He pretty much had to win that match to move the story forward.

[djthefunkchris]

Great PPV... I was honestly thinking Punk was going to pull it off there for a while, lol. I had all kinds of crazy storylines going through my head for it too... The NEW COO "The ROCK!" Sounded good to me at the time, while watching the match.

Glad to see Mark Henry finally get his dues, well deserved. Can't imagine anyone filling that roll anywhere near as well.

Hated Beth losing.

I don't get the ADR thing... trying to, but it's not working for me.

Overall, great show. I had some ups and downs, but I was overall very entertained. I even liked the ending.

[Jaysin]

I really hate to be this guy, especially because it's pretty hypocritical of me to be doing this...but

So Nash was legit fired huh? :p

[ChrisKid]

Henry bt Orton: Thank you WWE, but he'll probably lose it back to Orton on his first defense (probably on Smackdown or RAW)

Cena bt Del Rio: Yawn another Cena reign Yipee :mad:

HHH bt Punk: Wanted Punk to win as i strongly dislike HHH

[JackKnifed72]

So does this mean that Randy Orton was a "transitional champion" used to get the belt from 2 time champion Christian on to Mark Henry :eek:

Am I the only one who misses "Sexual Chocolate"?

Congrats to Mark Henry though

[ThriceP86]

Well... I'm glad Ziggler is still US champ. Even though he's been looking like a WWE champ even back when he had his feud with Edge (And had the World title for 20 seconds or something!)

[critical-23]

So does this mean that Randy Orton was a "transitional champion" used to get the belt from 2 time champion Christian on to Mark Henry :eek:

Am I the only one who misses "Sexual Chocolate"?

Congrats to Mark Henry though

No, sir, you are not! :D

TBH, never gave Henry a chance to win since it was Randy Orton with the belt. Kudos to WWE for surprising the crap out of me this match. All of the other bouts were pretty predictable to me.

[Fantabulous]

ADR losing the belt so soon might be just a short-term deal as a reaction to the low ratings for Raw, or they've given up on the guy and they picked the worst time to do right before going to Mexico. Not a good move either way.

I'll credit them with going all the way with Henry in getting a totally clean win on Orton.

You mean Nash lied on Twitter? I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

I'm not totally burned on Punk losing because it did take a lot of interference to get there but at the same time, as others have said, if Miz/Truth are against Triple H, why go after Punk?

[Comradebot]

Mark Henry, really? I mean, I'm all for seeing Randy Orton lose... but Henry?

Is it just me, or has the WWE gotten even hot-shottier with their world title reigns this year?

[djthefunkchris]

ADR losing the belt so soon might be just a short-term deal as a reaction to the low ratings for Raw, or they've given up on the guy and they picked the worst time to do right before going to Mexico. Not a good move either way.

I'll credit them with going all the way with Henry in getting a totally clean win on Orton.

You mean Nash lied on Twitter? I'm shocked. :rolleyes:

I'm not totally burned on Punk losing because it did take a lot of interference to get there but at the same time, as others have said, if Miz/Truth are against Triple H, why go after Punk?

Something I was trying to figure out as well. They come out and attack them both, then put Punks arm over HHH... Then later pull punk off of HHH when he is going to get the win. Don't really get that.

[milamber]

Awesome Truth v Air Boom - A bit clunky at the start but some entertaining spots and the Conspiracy DQ finish made it good. Love the Miz's new head plant DDT.

Rhodes v DiBiase - "I said put the bags on!" Loving everything Rhodes does but DiBiase is still Mister Generic and probably always will be.

JoMo v Riley v Swagger v Ziggler - Fun match but a little short. Good to see Ziggler retain.

Henry v Orton - Well placed in the middle of the card. Good match for Henry. Hope he beats Orton again at HIAC.

Kelly v Beth - The crowd were into it. The result was a surprise to me. Decent for a divas match.

ADR v Cena - This match got way better after the first 10 minutes. Good but not quite as good as the Cena v Punk matches. Hope Del Rio wins the rematch at HIAC.

HHH v Punk - Pretty good semi-hardcore match for PG WWE. Thoroughly enjoyed it, especially the kitchen sink ending. Was the Miz/Truth run-in a teaser for Survivor Series? Will Punk face HHH or Nash at HIAC?

Night of Champions wasn't outstanding but had a solid card all the way through with only one filler match. I expect a lot of rematches at HIAC.

[Zeel1]

Something I was trying to figure out as well. They come out and attack them both, then put Punks arm over HHH... Then later pull punk off of HHH when he is going to get the win. Don't really get that.

I believe I might actually know what that's about.

Their reasons for attacking Punk and HHH and trying to screw over HHH was because they believed him to be the figurehead of the C-O-N-spiracy that has held them down. However, after they were taken out from the ring, Truth must have seen how Johnny Ace kept the referee from coming into the ring and counting when HHH had Punk pinned with the Pedigree, only to demand that he go in and count when it was the other way around. Seeing that may have told Truth that HHH ISN'T a part of it - in fact, Ace seemed to be conspiring to have HHH forced out of power. So, now seeing HHH as just another victim of the conspiracy, Truth pulled Punk off of him to help fight against it.

This is of course just my guess, but looking at it like that, it makes some degree of sense.

I can agree that the match was pretty goddamned overbooked, but I actually didn't mind it. It all still made sense to me, atleast, and in my eyes, Punk has a plethora of excuses for losing, I don't think it made him look weak at all, especially considering he kicked out of a Pedigree by himself, whereas Triple H needed help to keep from being pinned by the GTS.

I am kind of disappointed that Cena won the title back so quickly. Just makes me wonder what the point of putting so much effort into building Del Rio up and finally giving him the title was if he was just going to lose it a month later anyway. I also feel like it kind of undercuts the Nash/Punk/HHH situation, because it seems this started because for whatever reason, Nash wanted to help Del Rio win the WWE Title. Seems like that'd mean a bit more if he still held it until the situation was resolved.

Also didn't think they made the right choice in having Phoenix lose. Was okay with it the first time, but now I don't see her getting many more rematches, so unless Natalya's going to be taking over as the lead woman of the DOD, I don't really see them going much further in their little revolution, which is a shame, 'cause I was liking that. I also thought it'd be cool to let her win it in her hometown, but eh...

Aside from those two, though, I thought it was a pretty good night. Didn't think any of the matches were bad, liked the finishes to the Fatal Four Way and Tag Match. Very surprised to see Henry pick up the win, but as it sunk in what the potential is now, to have someone finally stop him and take the title off of him, making them into a megastar, I'm liking the thought of it. I saw one guy fantasy book this as Henry winning and holding it until WrestleMania, destroying everyone in his path until Daniel Bryan challenges him and becomes the hero in taking it off of him. Would be a great way of making him champion, if they really want to go that way. Doesn't really look like that's how they want to go right now, but WrestleMania's still a good ways away, so who knows...