The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Hashasheen]

I'm assuming Wade was representing the Smackdown Superstars, Beth the Divas as Champion, and Lawler the Raw guys?

Still, it was a major cluster**** solely intended to put over Triple H. I've never liked him as a wrestler though I've seen why people have, but this entire saga has just really put me off him.

[OctoberRaven]

No, Wade was representing ALL the wrestling. Lawler was representing himself.

[Fantabulous]

I honestly believe alot less is actually written, word for word, as people think... at least now-a-days.

That's not to say they don't have a program to follow. I just think it's alot more flexible then it has been in... I don't know eight years now?

I'd laugh if I didn't think you were being serious. Top stars? Yeah, they have input and can influence what they say. But someone like Phoenix? Once she gets her lines those are the ones she says.

[milamber]

Can't believe no one's mentioned Vengeance yet and the fact that Orton and Cena are both not in title matches. That should make most people happy. I assume the Heavyweight match will be Sheamus losing to Henry. I'm positive ADR will retain but I can't think of a Raw face worthy of a title shot right now. Vengeance seems like it might suffer from being a set up for Survivor Series.

[Jaysin]

I agree completely. ;)

And did I see Rene Dupree at the far end where Wade Barrett was? Maybe it was a NXT superstar, as I don't even watch it or anything, but he looked like him, or maybe Ricky Ortiz..? .. I doubt it was him...Now I'm bummed.

I didn't watch Raw, but you're probably talking about the ever amazing Derrick Bateman.

[ChrisKid]

This better be the start of a heel turn for HHH as i hate him as a face (extremley bland face at that) plus didn't HHH also hold back Eugene

[Mr Rager]

Can't believe no one's mentioned Vengeance yet and the fact that Orton and Cena are both not in title matches. That should make most people happy. I assume the Heavyweight match will be Sheamus losing to Henry. I'm positive ADR will retain but I can't think of a Raw face worthy of a title shot right now. Vengeance seems like it might suffer from being a set up for Survivor Series.

How has that conclusion be reached?

I thought the aftermath of the Orton/Henry match at HIAC made it pretty clear that there would be a third match between the two, and John Cena still has the rematch clause which has decided the last two PPV matches for the WWE Championship.

In regards to Sheamus, I think that they'll build him more slowly and have him be the guy to finally topple Mark Henry. In terms of crowd reactions, he seems to be the hottest thing on Smackdown right now. His previous feud with Henry is still too fresh in the mind, though.

[juggaloninjalee]

How has that conclusion be reached?

I thought the aftermath of the Orton/Henry match at HIAC made it pretty clear that there would be a third match between the two, and John Cena still has the rematch clause which has decided the last two PPV matches for the WWE Championship.

In regards to Sheamus, I think that they'll build him more slowly and have him be the guy to finally topple Mark Henry. In terms of crowd reactions, he seems to be the hottest thing on Smackdown right now. His previous feud with Henry is still too fresh in the mind, though.

Orton and Henry looked to be done as of Monday. Looks like Big Show and Henry will feud for a month or two. I have no clue what they are going to do with Orton other than possibly feud with Rhodes now?

ADR and Cena seem to have just begun.

[OldStingberg]

In regards to Sheamus, I think that they'll build him more slowly and have him be the guy to finally topple Mark Henry. In terms of crowd reactions, he seems to be the hottest thing on Smackdown right now. His previous feud with Henry is still too fresh in the mind, though.

I was just reading something today from PWI I think that mentioned the WWE is leaning towards slowly building Sheamus to go for the title at WrestleMania.

There's also rumblings from sources within the WWE that now that Punk has become the top seller of merch both in the arenas and online, the WWE is looking at giving him a major push, including potentially putting the WWE title on him in a few months and letting him go into WrestleMania as the champion, and let the Cena/Rock match not have the belt on the line. I really, reaaly hope they do that because it makes total sense in every possible way.

[bookerman]

Guess who is on the cover of the WWE mag....

Not Henry talking about the Hall of Pain and his 15 year quest

Not ADR talking about his destiny it was to win the title

Not Miz/Truth exposing the conspiracy

Starts with an H....ends with an H....has an H in the middle.

The question shouldn't be who has HHH held down, it should be who (besides HBK) had a feud with HHH and came out of it in a much better position than they were when they started. Batista? Sheamus (his lifting buddy)? Look at the Angle/Steph/HHH story and how well put together it was only for HHH to come out on top in the end.

The basic HHH MO has been
1 - find hot face who is getting over
2 - start feud with top face
3 - run down face on mic (including comments of "you aren't in my league")
4 - hit face with sledgehammer
5- win match with face/outsmart face at every turn (this is where Batista came out ahead as he wasn't made to look so idiotic)
6 - after a match or two where the face gets exposed as unable to beat HHH or unable to get ahead in anyway - point 3 is more or less shown to be the case. HHH comes out on top and face is no longer as popular/over as they were before. HHH still roughly at same level.

HHH rarely if ever shows weakness, whether in the ring or in promos. It's why his stuff as COO is so bland. He is written/decides to come out ahead in every segment he is in. His stuff with Punk didn't give Punk "the rub", Punk reached that level before HHH came back by virtue of his promos and the MITB match. He was over and he was cutting good/great promos. Now he's lost on 2 straight PPVs and doesn't appear to be in the hunt for the title anymore. He also doesn't have a clearly defined "what next" for the next PPV.

[bookerman]

I was just reading something today from PWI I think that mentioned the WWE is leaning towards slowly building Sheamus to go for the title at WrestleMania.

There's also rumblings from sources within the WWE that now that Punk has become the top seller of merch both in the arenas and online, the WWE is looking at giving him a major push, including potentially putting the WWE title on him in a few months and letting him go into WrestleMania as the champion, and let the Cena/Rock match not have the belt on the line. I really, reaaly hope they do that because it makes total sense in every possible way.

I may be in the minority, but I think Punk/ADR or Punk/Miz for the title with good build and solid promos focusing on the belt could be fun.

[Mr Rager]

Orton and Henry looked to be done as of Monday. Looks like Big Show and Henry will feud for a month or two. I have no clue what they are going to do with Orton other than possibly feud with Rhodes now?

ADR and Cena seem to have just begun.

I can't see the feud being done just because Mark Henry said so, especially after Orton being the only person to have gotten the better of Henry in an exchange for a long time. Without having read any spoilers, I'd guess that Orton will get involved either during or after Henry's altercation with Big Show on Smackdown this week.

[juggaloninjalee]

I can't see the feud being done just because Mark Henry said so, especially after Orton being the only person to have gotten the better of Henry in an exchange for a long time. Without having read any spoilers, I'd guess that Orton will get involved either during or after Henry's altercation with Big Show on Smackdown this week.

You may be right. I am avoiding the spoilers too but if anything maybe they add Big Show into the mix. I don't see Big Show returning from injury due to Henry only being mad for 1 show. That has to be something that builds to a PPV match.

[OldStingberg]

HHH rarely if ever shows weakness, whether in the ring or in promos. It's why his stuff as COO is so bland. He is written/decides to come out ahead in every segment he is in. His stuff with Punk didn't give Punk "the rub", Punk reached that level before HHH came back by virtue of his promos and the MITB match. He was over and he was cutting good/great promos. Now he's lost on 2 straight PPVs and doesn't appear to be in the hunt for the title anymore. He also doesn't have a clearly defined "what next" for the next PPV.

Three straight PPVs if you include ADR cashing in on him to end SummerSlam. And not just three straight PPV losses, but three straight losses that involved him getting pinned to essentially close the show.

I agree with you about Punk/ADR or Punk/Miz for the title at WM. I'd also throw in Punk/Ziggler if Dolph wins the Royal Rumble. Those feuds would all be golden, and a great way to elevate those guys and continue building their stars on a PPV guaranteed to be huge because of Cena/Rock.

[TheKenwyne]

I was wondering why Barrett was "elected" to speak on behalf of the superstars, myself. That just didn't make sense to me, since he hasn't done anything of note since being excommunicated from the Nexus.

As for why Beth was speaking for the divas, I assumed that was simply because she's the Divas Champion. You didn't see Kelly Kelly or Eve out there at all.

I think he was elected simply because everyone hates the guy. Even in his hometown of Manchester he was booed out the building last year - and if he runs down HHH there's no danger of anyone forgetting who the face in the segment is. I don't agree with the booking, but I'm willing to give it a chance.

[Wrestling Century]

Actually, I also love Michael Cole's character. I'm just saying everyone else in the IWC. Not the few of us who like him.

I've actually warmed up to Michael Cole's character. He reminds me of Bobby Heenan in WCW, doing commentary. I find it quite entertaining. However, all of the storylines/fueds that he had at WM this year were awful.

[Wrestling Century]

This better be the start of a heel turn for HHH as i hate him as a face (extremley bland face at that) plus didn't HHH also hold back Eugene

Yeah, I don't know why he agreed to put over Eugene..........

Anyways, I've always hated babyface Triple H. He was/is way cooler as a bad*** heel using his sledgehammer and friends to cheat to win, while still seeming bad***. Am I the only person who liked the Evolution stable?

[Mr Rager]

Am I the only person who liked the Evolution stable?

Nope, I liked it. I can't think of a stable that has been better executed and made a bigger (long-lasting) impact in WWE in the past decade - not that that's saying a lot.

I quite like Michael Cole's character, but he still needs to learn to a) not just bicker throughout entire matches at time and b) shut up when a wrestler is cutting a promo. Jerry Lawler has also become guilty of doing these things, and his character sucks.

[Horace222]

Well i think Punk is the Best in the World ;)

[OctoberRaven]

Best wrestler in the world right now is Minoru Suzuki.

Best PERFORMER, though, is Mark Henry. Nobody has been more legit monsterous than him.

[lazorbeak]

Best wrestler in the world right now is Minoru Suzuki.

Best PERFORMER, though, is Mark Henry. Nobody has been more legit monsterous than him.

And as we all know, "performer" is a synonym for "monstrous." Nothing is more terrifying than Shawn Michaels circa 1996. I kid though, Henry has been pretty great.

As far as Punk goes, it's a slippery slope. If Punk just wins every match, all the time, maybe it raises his profile a little, but he is not so flawless as a performer that fans might not end up resenting him. If he's moving merchandise and getting top spots (which he is), then that's a positive. That said, I do wish he was given the same opportunities to talk that he had a few months ago. He doesn't seem to have that same "this is something special" aura on him any more, which is a shame because he's obviously capable of performing at that level.

[Tha Black Phenom]

HHH rarely if ever shows weakness, whether in the ring or in promos. It's why his stuff as COO is so bland. He is written/decides to come out ahead in every segment he is in. His stuff with Punk didn't give Punk "the rub", Punk reached that level before HHH came back by virtue of his promos and the MITB match. He was over and he was cutting good/great promos.

Yeah.. and HHH getting involved KEPT Punk up there. Despite the loss, it allowed Punk to extend his time in the spotlight. That's where the pipebombs came flowing out, buddy. They weren't gonna flow out in a feud with The Miz or against Dolph Ziggler. H knew that Punk had to mesh with veterans, let him milk the wife jokes for all they're worth, and on the side he brought Nash in. Of course, Nash was supposed to compete and Punk would've likely won then, but H stepped in and with their stipulation(which I think they could've done without but) it ensured the HHH win.


Also, just putting this here.

http://www.wrestlezone.com/news/242982-exclusive-cena-no-longer-the-1-wwe-merch-seller-new-1

WrestleZone has confirmed that an internal memo sent to WWE staffers this week listed the top 10 merchandise sellers, and John Cena has been replaced for the first time in several years as the number one seller.

The new number one?

CM Punk.

According to the memo, Punk is the number one merchandise selling WWE Superstar both on WWE Shop Zone and at the live events. The only time Cena was not number one was when The Rock returned to WWE Monday Night Raw, and his t-shirts sold a record number on ShopZone.

According to a key source in WWE, two of Punk's shirts have already eclipsed the Rock's one-day sales record. "Punk's merchandise is hot," our source told us, "no one has dethroned Cena in over 5 years, and Punk's numbers are way above anything or anyone else."

[bookerman]

I think Punk could have continued the feud/rivalry with Cena sans HHH and still be where he is today. The promo that sparked everything had nothing to do with HHH or Vince. It dealt with the way WWE decided who to hire and who to give chances to. Everything Punk said in that initial promo was kept within the framework constructed by the WWE and did nothing to take away from people wanting to see him and Cena in a match. The momentum of that promo and the performance at MITB lasted until Summerslam and then things went sideways.

The logical feuds coming out were Punk vs ADR and Cena vs HHH with Nash (who had the idea in creative to bring him in - Vince? HHH?) either acting as ADR's muscle or eventually revealed as being sent in by HHH to put Punk in his place. The story has changed from how is Punk's rebellious outspoken character going to do in the WWE to has HHH lost control?

As always, the WWE hotshotted a lot of stuff (Punk's return, HHH/Punk match - I agree the COO stip was pointless, the umpteen title changes in less than 3 months) while somehow managing to make Mark Freakin Henry into a viable monster despite his limited in-ring abilities and average at best promo skills (which haven't hurt him since he found a very good promo style).

The frustrating thing about Punk/Cena is what could have been with that feud without the overinvolvement of HHH and going back to a GM/figurehead story.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I also agree Punk/Cena could've went much further than that. I guess when I saw Del Rio cash in, I told myself "well that's all she wrote". Things were indeed cut short when H stepped in the scene, but I don't regret it all that much either.

[OldStingberg]

I think Punk could have continued the feud/rivalry with Cena sans HHH and still be where he is today.

I think he would have been a lot better off that where he is today. In fact, I think Punk feuding with pretty much anybody but Triple H would have left Punk better off.

I just don't understand the idea that the Triple H feud has kept Punk elevated. The thing that has kept Punk elevated is Punk. The WWE has done everything they could reasonably do to slow Punk down short of Morrisoning him or taking him off TV. I mean, they took the title off him, they threw him into a bad feud where he played the role of douche to Triple H's badass moral babyface, then they had Punk get pinned a couple times to close out PPVs before shifting the main storyline in the WWE totally away from him. That might be Triple H's idea of elevating a guy, but I don't think it should be anyone else's.

The fact that Punk is still going reasonably strong is a credit solely to the speed he was going at before they started slowing him down.

[bookerman]

I also agree Punk/Cena could've went much further than that. I guess when I saw Del Rio cash in, I told myself "well that's all she wrote". Things were indeed cut short when H stepped in the scene, but I don't regret it all that much either.

See...I think Punk calling out ADR as the company chosen golden boy to capture the hispanic market would have continued his ranting about how others get chances he never got, how the "office" is still bad, and how Punk doesn't care that ADR's thug set him up, he's going to take the title back...cause he's the best in the world. This firmly establishes Punk as the face, lets ADR be champ and establish himself, keep Punk's anti-establishment vibe going.

For Cena, he can complain about HHH's job as ref. HHH admits the mistake and gives Cena a chance for another shot. Cena has to win 3 matches before NoC to make the match b/w ADR and Punk a 3 way. I could go further, but it keeps HHH out of the ring and put the focus on the in-ring talents (Punk/ADR/Cena) with each having something to prove. You could really do the HiaC match as singles with Ricardo/Cena happening exactly how it did (except Cena runs in to stop Ricardo) which allows ADRs muscle man to get involved as well. They'd have to find Cena someone to feud with until Survivor Series (which if they had used Mason Ryan instead of Nash, I'd have made it him...Ryan beats down Cena, trying to keep him out of the 3 way..per ADRs orders), but he's already getting the big program going into WM, so a couple of cool months shouldn't hurt him. This gives Punk/ADR a chance to headline a few shows and see what they can do. As Henry has shown, someone fresh on top can be a good thing.

A SS series match of Rock/Cena/Punk/Air Boom vs ADR/Ryan/Miz/Truth/??? would have been fun. Especially if ??? turned out to be HHH who turns heel and reveals that ADR/Ryan/etc are the future of the WWE...his chosen picks to carry the company to new heights. Sets up multiple people fighting the odds with Cena/Rock fighting b/c of miscommunication during the SS match (ie Rock causes Cena to get pinned).

[juggaloninjalee]

See...I think Punk calling out ADR as the company chosen golden boy to capture the hispanic market would have continued his ranting about how others get chances he never got, how the "office" is still bad, and how Punk doesn't care that ADR's thug set him up, he's going to take the title back...cause he's the best in the world. This firmly establishes Punk as the face, lets ADR be champ and establish himself, keep Punk's anti-establishment vibe going.

For Cena, he can complain about HHH's job as ref. HHH admits the mistake and gives Cena a chance for another shot. Cena has to win 3 matches before NoC to make the match b/w ADR and Punk a 3 way. I could go further, but it keeps HHH out of the ring and put the focus on the in-ring talents (Punk/ADR/Cena) with each having something to prove. You could really do the HiaC match as singles with Ricardo/Cena happening exactly how it did (except Cena runs in to stop Ricardo) which allows ADRs muscle man to get involved as well. They'd have to find Cena someone to feud with until Survivor Series (which if they had used Mason Ryan instead of Nash, I'd have made it him...Ryan beats down Cena, trying to keep him out of the 3 way..per ADRs orders), but he's already getting the big program going into WM, so a couple of cool months shouldn't hurt him. This gives Punk/ADR a chance to headline a few shows and see what they can do. As Henry has shown, someone fresh on top can be a good thing.

A SS series match of Rock/Cena/Punk/Air Boom vs ADR/Ryan/Miz/Truth/??? would have been fun. Especially if ??? turned out to be HHH who turns heel and reveals that ADR/Ryan/etc are the future of the WWE...his chosen picks to carry the company to new heights. Sets up multiple people fighting the odds with Cena/Rock fighting b/c of miscommunication during the SS match (ie Rock causes Cena to get pinned).

That is some interesting fantasy booking. I think I would have liked that. It helps Mason Ryan get over more than turning on Dolph and Jack did and I think it puts the focus where it should be right now. Yeah I really like that.

[bookerman]

Thanks.

They need to take the Batista route with Ryan. Muscle as part of a group or paired with a better worked in a tag team. I just don't see him getting over right now as a face.

I actually think Alex Riley is a better prospect all around, but he's already on Superstars duty which doesn't bode well. I think A-Ry and Morrison would be a fun tag team and give both something to do, especially when the tag titles are on Miz/Truth.

Going forward with Punk...have him work his way through the new heel stable until he's beaten all of them and finally gets a shot at ADR. Instead of taking a title shot against ADR, he decides he wants to chop the head off the snake and challenges HHH for WM.

[sebsplex]

I think A-Ry and Morrison would be a fun tag team and give both something to do, especially when the tag titles are on Miz/Truth.

I like that. I'm getting a kinda face MNM vibe and considering the history (Miz/Morrison, Truth/Morrison and Miz/Riley) it's not like much legwork would be required to start a decent programme between the teams.

[OldStingberg]

I wonder what happened to Riley. They aired a hype video for him on Raw just a couple weeks ago, but then nothing since then. It seems like that 6th face spot in the main-ish event on Raw last week would have made more sense for Riley.

[bookerman]

I like that. I'm getting a kinda face MNM vibe and considering the history (Miz/Morrison, Truth/Morrison and Miz/Riley) it's not like much legwork would be required to start a decent programme between the teams.

Morrison has some nice flashy moves and has tag experience. Morrison could play Ricky Morton to Riley's Robert Gibson. It allows Riley to come in and clean house while not over exposing him in the ring. Pre-Air Boom, I thought Bourne/Riley and Kofi/Morrison would have been good teams. The aerial ability of Ko-Mo would have been nuts.

[Teh_Showtime]

I dont think Riley has been on TV since he sandbagged Swagger, outside of the 4 way match at NoC that he was already booked in.

[Wrestling Century]

I dont think Riley has been on TV since he sandbagged Swagger, outside of the 4 way match at NoC that he was already booked in.

To me it looked more like he just didn't know how to take a Gutwrench Powerbomb, or he didn't know what move Swagger was trying to do. It didn't look like he was delibrately trying to sandbag Swagger.

[VTial]

I think he would have been a lot better off that where he is today. In fact, I think Punk feuding with pretty much anybody but Triple H would have left Punk better off.

I just don't understand the idea that the Triple H feud has kept Punk elevated. The thing that has kept Punk elevated is Punk. The WWE has done everything they could reasonably do to slow Punk down short of Morrisoning him or taking him off TV.

It's the "smirk".

Mic for mic, I agree. There's a lot of better feuds for Punk.

Unfortunately (and this applies to the success of Evolution too), the most guaranteed way to get a long mic segment would be against Cena and HHH.

Not just a long mic segment but a long match segment that often heads up to the main event.

The reason HHH is at least among the mid tier of quality mic feuds for Punk is that HHH being made to shut up hasn't happened in a long time so when Punk says something that just causes HHH to smirk, it rubs off on Punk and makes him to be the guy the authority figure "gone wild" can't touch and cements his status as one of the top guys.

In some ways, this has always been how HHH has "helped" get people over. The Batista and Orton feuds were also based on guys not letting HHH run the show anymore. The difference was that Orton was horrible at the mic and Batista...well he got injured and he dropped the smart Batista act.

[eayragt]

And I hate to say it, as Triple H is obviously a huge name, but how feud with Punk was also designed to elevate him. And he did need it. He hadn't wrestled for months... when he lost. He was in a storyline where his authority was in question. He needed a big introduction, and he got it in a feud with Punk.

Is Punk as hot as he could be? No. But Triple H is hotter. Del Rio is hotter. The Miz is hotter. R-Truth is hotter. There's a bigger picture at play. If his next major feud is Del Rio then its setup as a much better feud now than it would have been 3 months ago.

[VTial]

This is the problem often times with mediocre booking though, the guys that are getting hot don't exactly retain what they have.

JBL wasn't exactly as over as his character with the APA. He certainly was more reknowned because he was part of the main event but the gimmick didn't exactly build from his previous characters.

In contrast to the greats of the past up to HBK (The Rock and Stone Cold broke through new gimmicks) the problem with breaking gimmicks is that you have to be so over in order for that to help you long term.

In this sense, only HHH is truly having a legacy type of overness.

Miz's value has since been broken. He's barely on the mic anymore. Not only that, his legacy-type overness is connected to Riley and Morrison and that has been set aside. You wouldn't even buy that as a character this was the same guy who could cause John Cena problems or go toe to toe with Punk at the mic.

The same goes for R Truth. He's hot but what made him sizzle was his capability to be at the mic as a singles performer. Now he's just a slightly more over K-Kwik. You could say he's more violent but so was Kofi Kingston when he was smashing up cars. That didn't last long.

Alberto del Rio has it worse. He just bleeds JBL heat. Right now and until the WWE gets tired of him, he will be in the Main Event but he is worse than Miz at having that moment. The guy is almost building up to a new gimmick breaker in order to have his moment. Compare this to the Miz who at least had his mic moments as a champion. I'm not saying the ADR look would no longer be there but ADR right now is different from ADR when he debut and to turn him into this current guy, they had to kill the character's previous overness. They are bound to do that all over again once they realize ADR isn't exactly making Punk or Cena look good and Punk/Cena aren't the gimmicks to make ADR really be a main event championship contender that the fans would respect.

If you look at it from those perspectives, the only one that really is getting hotter is HHH as his actions build up from his previous gimmick's overness and if you stop the feud today, the perception of HHH would be more over in a memorable way. Punk? He has to rebuild. Cena? He's always Cena but they made him regress back into the old tired cliche of a character. Miz and R-Truth? Without this feud, they have to go back to being mid-carders unless they get pushed heavily as Main Eventers. Their characters don't work as well as upper mid-tiers. ADR? He'll still be the same guy they were trying to push only they did it more properly now so he at least gains a tad bit of heat but certainly not on any memorable heel level.

[OldStingberg]

The reason HHH is at least among the mid tier of quality mic feuds for Punk is that HHH being made to shut up hasn't happened in a long time so when Punk says something that just causes HHH to smirk, it rubs off on Punk and makes him to be the guy the authority figure "gone wild" can't touch and cements his status as one of the top guys.

Did you watch their feud? Because that didn't happen. In fact, you pretty much described what happened with the Punk/Vince feud. Punk spoke a bunch of truth, Vince never knew how to respond, and Punk won the title and "left the company" with it showing everyone that Vince couldn't touch Punk. Looking back, it's even more remarkable how well Vince put over Punk considering what happened when HHH "tried".

In theory, Punk should be able to feud with HHH like he feuded with Vince. But that's just not how it actually happened. Punk was given terrible material in a terrible story and HHH was more concerned with getting pops than actually putting Punk over.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Well that's where it comes down to opinion - not that I think Punk's material was masterful, but it was good enough that it certainly got the idea through. He didn't shut up HHH or anything but he clearly owned him more than once, to which the fans took note(terrible material or not) that Punk isn't to be taken lightly as opposed to the rest of the roster. The 'smirk'. If Trips was to take action next Raw on random superstars among the roster, even among the top stars, you'd bet that if there was one guy who would speak up against anything, it's him. As soon as Punk started saying things like "I don't like this Triple H, the new you sucks, I want the old you". That position right there - as a superstar - is a very special one to have, and Punk's transition from Vince to HHH was necessary for it to work.

[LoNdOn]

Here is the transcript of Antonio Cesaro's debut promo at FCW

"I've played in the small leagues for so long now that I've become bored. I have worked to get back here and not a single guy signed to a contract down here or up in Titan Headquarters will stop me from proving; whether it be by myself or as a King of Wrestling... That I am better than the rest."

"The man you knew me as is done, gone, finished. You recognize the face? This is a face you will get to know very well. I am Antonio Cesaro I am a King of Wrestling... The other is not too far behind and believe me when I say this. This place will soon have a Hero."

I got quite excited reading this. :)

Here is a video of his debut match:

http://nationalsportsreview.com/2011/09/23/video-fcw-seth-rollins-vs-antonio-cesaro-claudio-castagnoli/

[VTial]

Did you watch their feud? Because that didn't happen. In fact, you pretty much described what happened with the Punk/Vince feud. Punk spoke a bunch of truth, Vince never knew how to respond, and Punk won the title and "left the company" with it showing everyone that Vince couldn't touch Punk. Looking back, it's even more remarkable how well Vince put over Punk considering what happened when HHH "tried".

In theory, Punk should be able to feud with HHH like he feuded with Vince. But that's just not how it actually happened. Punk was given terrible material in a terrible story and HHH was more concerned with getting pops than actually putting Punk over.

To add to what the Black Phenom had stated already, the Vince feud was different in the sense that Vince (not being a wrestler) has a different effect both on the audience and in future feuds. Plus duplicating feud storylines back to back is obviously going to have some negative effects especially if they are a continuation of one overall story.

Vince can only disappear. HHH tends to stretch out feuds and then mess up the overness of wrestlers. Even for modern WWE standards, Punk vs. HHH had above average quality in terms of generating interest. Just look back on the past pages of threads here where everyone was on the bandwagon and only a few of us were being devil's advocates about Punk moving away from both Cena and the title.

This isn't to say that the material had nothing to do with it but the way it works with HHH related feuds is that the post-feud events are what messes with the wrestlers' overness and not the actual quality of the feuds especially if Hunter will allow you to get one over him. (Which Punk shouldn't have had but his mic material far surpassed Hunter's and he actually ended up having that.)

Primarily this happens because HHH will always be a major focus, like Cena. When you have wrestlers that always take up screen time but aren't monsters or invincible heroes (Cena doesn't really count mid-feud), they always ruin the overness of the rival unless the feud ends with a championship and a constant ME scene without HHH. The focus is often what ruins it even without blatantly terrible material. Punk for example could have easily slowly gotten the spotlight even if the storylines and materials were exactly the same.

They just had to put Punk more and HHH less and he would have gotten more over. Sure the lines had to be modified a bit but all you have to really do is highlight Punk's position more and it works. This is also what primarily differentiates Vince from HHH when they're doing the same type of storylines. Vince can't be in a lot of places. He's not a wrestler. He needs a thug for hire. All these things HHH doesn't really need AND on top of this it's not just him wanting more attention for himself, he fits in so many types of storylines and he likes long segments so even if he doesn't get over: Punk loses because every scene or topic where HHH is involved, Punk gets exposed less and less. (being mentioned doesn't count) It's just simple mathematics that the WWE has gone away from in the past years. The more trending a guy is, the more times you show him regardless of his official "overness" perception. Don't wait it out or sabotage it or you'll create a negative sum game where the guy has to rebuild his overness and his feud rivals also inherit their mediocre overness at the ME level.

[bookerman]

Who was the main focus of the past Raw? The new champ ADR? Nope, wasn't seen until 30 minutes in. Cena? Nope. Punk? Nah. The person who got the most face time on the show was HHH.

HHH has the highest sustained overness of anyone on the show based on his lengthy career and accomplishments. However, just because someone is in a segment with him it doesn't make them look more important. That's like saying anyone who is in a scene with House looks more important because they are interacting with him. Punk's material didn't help nor did the sudden shift from being screwed out of the title by Nash to feuding with HHH about whether he texted Nash or not. They killed Punk's heat by putting him a muddled, confusing story which in the end had zero payoff. Punk got bested physically by Nash numerous times, but never got to touch him. He got to throw some jabs at HHH on the mic, but was never allowed to drop "pipebombs" on him. Then Punk faces him in the ring and loses. Punk then gets pinned again to end the HiaC PPV. He gets beat on quite a bit during the 12 man tag and never gets to make his comeback. His character is being made to look weaker and weaker and instead of being someone special, he's being pulled back to earth as just another guy.

[OldStingberg]

I just want to highlight some of what bookerman said.

They killed Punk's heat by putting him a muddled, confusing story which in the end had zero payoff.
Well, zero payoff for Punk. It's doing quite well to elevate HHH, Miz, Truth, and John Laurinaitis.

Punk got bested physically by Nash numerous times, but never got to touch him.
Yep, Nash cost him his title, a #1 contender match, and his match against HHH, and Punk has got absolutely zero retribution for that with none in sight as their feud has seemingly died.

He got to throw some jabs at HHH on the mic, but was never allowed to drop "pipebombs" on him.
This is what I was mentioning earlier about Vince putting Punk over. Punk said much harsher things to Vince and Vince took them, because Vince was more concerned with getting Punk over than himself. Anything of substance Punk said to HHH was instantly met with a pretty reasonable retort which was usually designed to pop the crowd in HHH's favor. Punk said some solid stuff to HHH, but Trips just never really sold it, not nearly like Vince did, and it hurt Punk.

Then Punk faces him in the ring and loses.
And the usual response to this is, "Well, Punk had to lose because of the COO stipulation." That's dumb. The WWE shouldn't have backed themselves into that corner in the first place, especially because the COO stipulation meant nothing since HHH was so new. The stipulation essentially only served to tell us who would win the match.

Punk then gets pinned again to end the HiaC PPV.
While Cena gets to kick a little Mexican ass outside the cage before being locked out, thereby almost entirely protecting him in the loss. That tells you where the WWE's priorities are, as does...

He gets beat on quite a bit during the 12 man tag and never gets to make his comeback.
Sheamus getting the hero treatment in this match.

To be honest, to me, in my opinion, it seems like a couple people here are just desperately spinning things for whatever reason. It's like they're trying to tell me not to believe my lying eyes. We can argue about Punk's future, or about what heights Punk could have gone to immediately after MitB. But there should be no debate about the fact that Punk has been devalued, to some notable degree, either intentionally or not, since MitB. There just can't be debate about that.

[VTial]

HHH's bad but sometimes differing opinions are really a problem. I'm guilty of this myself as proven by the previous posts but now I think it's time to stretch back some of the so called facts by others.

Anything of substance Punk said to HHH was instantly met with a pretty reasonable retort which was usually designed to pop the crowd in HHH's favor. Punk said some solid stuff to HHH, but Trips just never really sold it, not nearly like Vince did, and it hurt Punk.

Actually Punk said harsher things to HHH. The "reasonable" retort by HHH is actually what helped fuel Punk more. They weren't reasonable. They were bland. So bland that it didn't gain much pops or boos. You could almost hear a pin drop everytime Punk stopped talking and HHH started rambling.

Some of the best Punk vs. Cena talks were also where HHH was involved.

Vince vs. Punk didn't work because of anything Vince did. It was due to the pseudokayfabe effect following the proximity to Punk's famous speech. In fact, without that speech, Vince's reaction nearly killed it against Punk.

His character is being made to look weaker and weaker and instead of being someone special, he's being pulled back to earth as just another guy.

His character is actually the strongest incarnation it has been.

Punk always had a bad history with power based wrestlers. (See Batista feud)

He then became more of a lackey who had trouble putting Rey Mysterio away when he had a faction.

Even nowadays, ADR's steel pipe has always been reserved for monster characters. Even HHH can lose with one well placed weapon. Punk had to go through a table and then get hit and then set up his move and then get hit again before losing.

The reality is, the more people focus on Punk, the more you will miss out on where HHH is the negative factor. Not the feud in particular or the quality of the storylines or who wins/who loses. Those aren't perfect but Punk has been the beneficiary of some of the better angles even in his debut. Feuding with HHH just dampens overness all the time because he has a special X-pac type of heat that he delivers on his feud rivals instead of himself and yet he continues to insist that he be the focus of his feuds.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Who was the main focus of the past Raw? The new champ ADR? Nope, wasn't seen until 30 minutes in. Cena? Nope. Punk? Nah. The person who got the most face time on the show was HHH.

HHH has the highest sustained overness of anyone on the show based on his lengthy career and accomplishments. However, just because someone is in a segment with him it doesn't make them look more important. That's like saying anyone who is in a scene with House looks more important because they are interacting with him. Punk's material didn't help nor did the sudden shift from being screwed out of the title by Nash to feuding with HHH about whether he texted Nash or not. They killed Punk's heat by putting him a muddled, confusing story which in the end had zero payoff. Punk got bested physically by Nash numerous times, but never got to touch him. He got to throw some jabs at HHH on the mic, but was never allowed to drop "pipebombs" on him. Then Punk faces him in the ring and loses. Punk then gets pinned again to end the HiaC PPV. He gets beat on quite a bit during the 12 man tag and never gets to make his comeback. His character is being made to look weaker and weaker and instead of being someone special, he's being pulled back to earth as just another guy.


And you mistakenly forgot to include things like I dunno, him pinning the WWE champion on a Raw show. Him actually getting the hot tag in a tag team match instead of Cena which has been the obvious long-term formula for whoever Cena tags with. Got the hot tag in that match AND ended up with the pin to close the main-event.

Just because HHH had an answer for most things doesn't mean Punk didn't drop any pipebombs. Punk did call HHH out for being a bully and you could arguably say whatever H responded to that wasn't exactly the be-all-end-all response to Punk's claims either. He referenced his debut gimmick Hunter Hearst Helmsley, something you'd think veterans would only be allowed to do because they're part of that "in" crowd but Punk got through that barrier.

Other things remain like dropping their real names on live TV, referencing HHH's butthurtedness about him getting outpopped by Punk at SS 07... it's not even that HHH no-sold all of that, it's that Vince did literally nothing. HHH was never gonna bow his head down to all of that. Everything Punk said about Cena, Cena responded to most of those claims too. Was he keeping Punk down? No, it's simply the thing to do. Believe me, I know how it was cool when Punk had the "last word" but one can't expect that to happen continously.

[Fantabulous]

I just want to highlight some of what bookerman said.


Well, zero payoff for Punk. It's doing quite well to elevate HHH, Miz, Truth, and John Laurinaitis.


Yep, Nash cost him his title, a #1 contender match, and his match against HHH, and Punk has got absolutely zero retribution for that with none in sight as their feud has seemingly died.


This is what I was mentioning earlier about Vince putting Punk over. Punk said much harsher things to Vince and Vince took them, because Vince was more concerned with getting Punk over than himself. Anything of substance Punk said to HHH was instantly met with a pretty reasonable retort which was usually designed to pop the crowd in HHH's favor. Punk said some solid stuff to HHH, but Trips just never really sold it, not nearly like Vince did, and it hurt Punk.


And the usual response to this is, "Well, Punk had to lose because of the COO stipulation." That's dumb. The WWE shouldn't have backed themselves into that corner in the first place, especially because the COO stipulation meant nothing since HHH was so new. The stipulation essentially only served to tell us who would win the match.


While Cena gets to kick a little Mexican ass outside the cage before being locked out, thereby almost entirely protecting him in the loss. That tells you where the WWE's priorities are, as does...


Sheamus getting the hero treatment in this match.

To be honest, to me, in my opinion, it seems like a couple people here are just desperately spinning things for whatever reason. It's like they're trying to tell me not to believe my lying eyes. We can argue about Punk's future, or about what heights Punk could have gone to immediately after MitB. But there should be no debate about the fact that Punk has been devalued, to some notable degree, either intentionally or not, since MitB. There just can't be debate about that.

I completely agree with all of the above, and as far as your last paragraph goes I think it's just a couple people who are simply unable to grasp certain things rather than an attempt to spin things.

[OldStingberg]

Actually Punk said harsher things to HHH. The "reasonable" retort by HHH is actually what helped fuel Punk more. They weren't reasonable. They were bland. So bland that it didn't gain much pops or boos. You could almost hear a pin drop everytime Punk stopped talking and HHH started rambling.

Punk said that the WWE will be better off when Vince McMahon is dead and he called Vince out on how much of a hypocrite Vince is with his anti-bullying campaign. Those two things are far, far more serious than any lame "your wife wears the pants in the family" line.

And HHH didn't get any pops? At one point, he got the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon, and that pop was louder than anything Punk had gotten that segment.

And you mistakenly forgot to include things like I dunno, him pinning the WWE champion on a Raw show. Him actually getting the hot tag in a tag team match instead of Cena which has been the obvious long-term formula for whoever Cena tags with. Got the hot tag in that match AND ended up with the pin to close the main-event.

You literally just summed up nearly every single highlight Punk has had in the past three months. In three months, the highlights for CM Punk, the hottest wrestler in years, have included getting the pin in a tag team main event on a single Raw, getting a hot-tag in a match on Raw, and (you forgot to mention) getting a laughably crooked pinfall on Cena at SS moments before dropping his title to ADR because of Nash's interference, two guys Punk has yet to get any amount of retribution on.

And people are honestly trying to say Punk hasn't been devalued since MitB? Seriously? Seriously? When you have to mention when a guy gets a hot-tag, I mean, come on, that's ridiculous. A hot-tag!

[Stennick]

Just so everyone is aware OSB is completely right in everything he's saying. I don't disagree with a single pronoun in his posts so far.

[JackKnifed72]

Just so everyone is aware OSB is completely right in everything he's saying. I don't disagree with a single pronoun in his posts so far.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4XT-l-_3y0


:D

[VTial]

Punk said that the WWE will be better off when Vince McMahon is dead and he called Vince out on how much of a hypocrite Vince is with his anti-bullying campaign. Those two things are far, far more serious than any lame "your wife wears the pants in the family" line.

And HHH didn't get any pops? At one point, he got the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon, and that pop was louder than anything Punk had gotten that segment.

In pro-wrestling, it's not.

It's like how silly the exploding car angle was in the past. Even stupid Paul London was rumored for getting fired over that because he was laughing. (Never really bothered to verify if it was true.)

Subjects of death in pro-wrestling? Puh-lease. That thing bored itself even way before the casket match was introduced.

I really don't want to play semantics. Of course random pops happen but if you judge the feud overall, Punk said more things to HHH other than the wife trashing he mentioned which was often aimed at when Punk was talking to Stephanie anyway. Anytime Punk really tried to do that on HHH was pure after thought after all the meat of the conversations were over and Punk seals it with the classic "whatever exchange you think you've won over me, it will never replace the facts of your legacy."

Punk essentially said things that HHH could only sidestep and repeat the talking points of what Cena already tried to pull over Punk. It's like a politician being forced to back around and deflect the questions. It doesn't matter how any random speech pops happen, it was not comfortable and it made you watch.

What Punk said to Vince though, considering how overdone the Vince vs. Austin feud was and how recent the Punk speech was, it was the average vs. Vince angle. Some upstart superstar says something bad about Vince. Vince grimaces, does some sort of deal... same old same old. People weren't watching it because there were two guys talking. The ones who don't regularly watch the WWE tune in because Punk recently said something controversial and he just regurgitated that in every Vince encounter they had. On top of that, the whole anti-bullying campaign was something only the smarks would get besides the rare mark who knew what the topic was about. If you simply watched sports entertainment for sports entertainment, Punk said things that the average regular WWE watcher could understand to HHH while the best thing they got from Punk/Vince besides the "vs. the authoritarian" angle is that Vince could have easily been a billionaire and chose to be a millionaire because Punk doesn't have his face on an ice cream cone (whatever that merchandise was) unlike Cena.

This doesn't even take into account that Punk's speech was famous not because of Vince or Cena which everyone has heard of before but because of all the little bits he threw in that they later turned into a joke like the manner Laurenitis fired superstars that is now just a bunch of interview talking points that no one is even mentioning in favor of treating it like another regular "oh the writers/HHH/booking didn't do things properly which is why another trending wrestler's hype is derailed once again but once again let's pretend it's something they ruined that is at the same time getting other wrestlers over, blah blah blah." What it really boils down to is that the WWE has messed this up even as Punk was famous for making that speech and majority of us fans have short term memory so we bring up some form "since x PPV" "since x feud" two bit made up theory that never really tries to tell the whole story and then we moan, we rejoice and we moan again and the WWE strings us all for fools.

[bookerman]

A few things:

I think on the whole, most of us are underwhelmed with where the Punk stuff went post MiTB. The genesis of what made him interesting (rallying against Vince and Co) has been replaced with determining whether the new figurehead is actually in control or not. It has helped other talents get over (Miz and Truth and weirdly Otunga), but Punk's heat has slowly been drained off. I think a lot of it has to do with the lack of long term planning in WWE. I doubt when the angle started that 3 months later they would have HHH feuding with Miz/Truth/Funkhauser. I don't think they had a clear idea of where they wanted this to go and when in doubt you go with the "safest" plan which is to make a former star the center of the program.


The fact that Punk was the #1 merch seller should be a BIG indication that the fans are willing to get behind him. I can only hope someone sees this and makes Punk a fixture at the top. Can he carry a company long term? Dunno. Has he shown flashes of ability to be a "draw" and move "merch"? I think so.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Punk said that the WWE will be better off when Vince McMahon is dead and he called Vince out on how much of a hypocrite Vince is with his anti-bullying campaign. Those two things are far, far more serious than any lame "your wife wears the pants in the family" line.

And HHH didn't get any pops? At one point, he got the crowd to pop in support of Vince McMahon, and that pop was louder than anything Punk had gotten that segment.



You literally just summed up nearly every single highlight Punk has had in the past three months. In three months, the highlights for CM Punk, the hottest wrestler in years, have included getting the pin in a tag team main event on a single Raw, getting a hot-tag in a match on Raw, and (you forgot to mention) getting a laughably crooked pinfall on Cena at SS moments before dropping his title to ADR because of Nash's interference, two guys Punk has yet to get any amount of retribution on.

And people are honestly trying to say Punk hasn't been devalued since MitB? Seriously? Seriously? When you have to mention when a guy gets a hot-tag, I mean, come on, that's ridiculous. A hot-tag!

Damn, and I thought the IWC was notorious for pointing out or jotting down some of WWE's traditions or formalities, good or bad. Maybe that only occurs while we're watching Raw or a PPV?

In these respective terms, about the hot tag... there's more to it than the hot tag. But I never said it was an important feat, it's barely notable if anything, but it notifies nonetheless how comfortable they've gotten with Punk's top spot, and that he isn't made out to look like a joke, even despite H. All I was doing is answering to bookerman's laundry list of negatives that have "plagued" Punk - if he wants to point out the little things, so will I. That's all it comes down to.

Punk has had more than enough retribution on Del Rio, for the record. He didn't get any on Cena because of Cena's status which is a given. but you don't figure beating him twice in a row salvages that? Is that not part of the highlights for some reason? If not, fair enough. /shrug

Has Punk been devalued since MITB? To an extent yeah, my only point being that it's not as damning as you guys put it across. Trips has made a few favors to himself, but some of what he's offered has been to Punk's advantage too. Not in the best way, maybe not in the most optimal way, but H's involvement has some upsides to it. Because again, without H, where would've Punk landed? When the best Raw has to offer beyond Cena and Del Rio is the likes of Miz and Ziggler, forgive me if I'm not flustered by Punk's direction. Most of the answers to where would Punk land have been or would likely be some elaborate scenario where WWE could've done this and this, done that and that with Punk or Vince or Del Rio, etc that you guys can spend a few hours intricately thinking up.

Maybe I'm not undermined by Punk's direction because I expected him to take a backseat. Even the "hottest wrestler in years" wouldn't stop them from keeping their status quo, except this time Punk WILL be in the equation. H's involvement didn't prevent any of that, by the sounds of how the crowd took the storyline. If you wanna take more than the casual fans' input in the equation, well it looks like it's pretty down the middle among the IWC as well.

[bookerman]

Heard a snippet of HHH's interview on busted open radio.

"I was told early on you can either make money or make friends. I told Orton and Batista the same thing. It's a business, sometimes you've got to step on some toes...."

I'm not only looking at this in regards to how Punk was handled, but also HHH's actions in the past as well as the company going forward. Am I wrong in thinking that in HHH's world, he's of the mindset that right now he's the only one that can make the company money? I know I might be reaching, but is it possible right? And going forward, is he going to reward those who are willing to "step on toes" to become stars?

I think Punk has a similar mentality, but is less likely to use his position of power to repeatedly hold down others when giving them a win or two could draw more money for the company.

Granted, Orton and Batista are two guys that it took the WWE a while to figure out what to do with them before they reached Main Event status. Being buds with HHH helped. Ask Sheamus how being friends with HHH helped as well.

At some point, the purpose of the older talent isn't to remain on top, but to help elevate new guys on the way up as your own decent begins.

[bookerman]

Maybe I'm not undermined by Punk's direction because I expected him to take a backseat. Even the "hottest wrestler in years" wouldn't stop them from keeping their status quo, except this time Punk WILL be in the equation. H's involvement didn't prevent any of that, by the sounds of how the crowd took the storyline. If you wanna take more than the casual fans' input in the equation, well it looks like it's pretty down the middle among the IWC as well.

Yeah, I think I drank the "Punk is going to get a lot of love a hot act for the WWE" kool aid. That's probably some of my disappointment. I will say it would seem a lot harder to mess that angle/story than get it right...

[bigtplaystew]

If you believe some of whats out there in the dirt sheets and what not... the "Summer of Punk" angle was set up and had a definitive ending... that was all ruined by whatever was going on with Kevin Nash not being able to wrestle.

Supposedly WWE is very happy with the way Punk carried himself during this summer, the way he publicized himself, and the way he got attention to the WWE from outside sources. They've also liked his merch figures.

So, again if you believe the dirt sheets at all, we should be seeing another huge CM Punk push comming forward.

Now I agree that Punk has been devalued a bit. You have to be a fool to say he hasn't been. But it's the exageration of Punk's supposedly lowering position in this company that I don't get.

Losing to Triple H wasn't as detrimental to his positioning as some of youa re making it out to be. Before the interferences, Punk arguably looked stronger than Triple H.

Punk has had top matches in every single pay per view since July and has had a ton of TV time. I wish they'd have done even more with him as well. Believe me. I just feel like sometimes people are a little unrealistic with what they expected his push to be. I think he should have the title. That's reasonable. He deserves it and he's earned it. I think a nice lengthy run is fair. But they have to keep everyone else around him strong or it's just John Cena all over again meaning a champ who beats seemingly far inferior competition.

[Teh_Showtime]

I still think Punk has a 98% chance to win the Rumbe.

Sure he has been cooled down but EVERYONE has. Orton, Cena, even Del Rio have all taken a backseat recently.

It's not like its just Punk.

[djthefunkchris]

I still think Punk has a 98% chance to win the Rumbe.

Sure he has been cooled down but EVERYONE has. Orton, Cena, even Del Rio have all taken a backseat recently.

It's not like its just Punk.

Anyone can win the Rumble... They don't have to be hot. Look how many times people were totally out of action and come in on the Rumble as a surprise and won it.

I'm thinking/hoping, by that time Punk's going to be heavily involved in something.

[ZMAN]

Last years Rumble was great.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqPLSmMH52Q
I hope Beth goes for it again this year and actually makes it to the final four or something.

[soxfan93]

I actually went to this year's Rumble in Boston, MA. It was great. The Nexus domination was epic, and the crowd just died when Cena cleaned house. It was priceless.

We picked up again when Diesel came out, though.

[Fantabulous]

Heard a snippet of HHH's interview on busted open radio.


Triple H has given a lot of interviews over the last couple of months and they show two very clear things. First, he has the same narrow view of what constitutes a 'star' as Vince, that being size and/or look. Unless you match up on this, you simply cannot be a star and when guys in charge have a narrow idea on who can and cannot be a star, they're booking usually turns this into a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's the guys who fit their view who get the chances and the help while the guys who don't 'fit' get no help at all. Second, for a 'student of the game', he has a very superficial knowledge of wrestling history, outside of WWE.

[bookerman]

Triple H has given a lot of interviews over the last couple of months and they show two very clear things. First, he has the same narrow view of what constitutes a 'star' as Vince, that being size and/or look. Unless you match up on this, you simply cannot be a star and when guys in charge have a narrow idea on who can and cannot be a star, they're booking usually turns this into a self-fulfilling prophecy because it's the guys who fit their view who get the chances and the help while the guys who don't 'fit' get no help at all. Second, for a 'student of the game', he has a very superficial knowledge of wrestling history, outside of WWE.

Excellent points and it further makes his points about UFC evolving seem idiotic. Most of their best stars recently have been guys with good personalities who are then able to turn it up to "11". See Rocky, Austin, Punk, Jericho, Orton, Henry etc. Instead, they are searching for guys with good bodies who they hope to be able to teach to work and talk. Yet, they don't want to use managers or tag teams to cover up for the weaknesses. Go figure.

[GhostDogg]

I never thought I would say this...

But this RAW is actually ENTERTAINING!!!!

PUNK: "Double Pay right??"

Best line Ever!!

LOL

[GhostDogg]

Are you KIDDING ME?

Its official.. I didnt see that coming.

[codey]

I've gotta say, the crowd DESPISES Laurinitis. As soon as Vince started saying his title, they started booing like crazy. He's turned that tag line into something easy to boo.

[Teh_Showtime]

This show so far is what I imagine RAW in the CVerse to be like lol.

But this is entertaining and Johnny Ace should make business pick up.

[GhostDogg]

Laurengitis (I know I mis-spelled it ) is a cat hair worse than Mike Adamle..

only difference was... Laurnenitis was actually a wrestler... I swear..I wanna change the channel. But I cant. So I guess we know who "Orchastrated everything"

[Teh_Showtime]

I expect the perma GM to be Foley.

We also need Shane O back too.

[GhostDogg]

I was watching OMG Special..
And I saw it where Shane was wrestling Kurt Angle, and I forgot how good of a wrestler he was...in fact he had a pretty sweet SSP.

[Teh_Showtime]

he was one of the best spot monkeys ever.

And he did all of that stuff while already knowing he'd be rich regardless

[Nedew]

Michael Cole pretending to play the trumpet finally made me like him.

[GhostDogg]

OK.. JR is Fired?


Please tell me the reveal the PERMENANT GM tonight..
because Johnny ACE is a ...umm..what word can I say, that wont get me "almost banned" ...AGAIN.?

[Rone Rivendale]

Maybe J.R. becomes the new GM?

[GhostDogg]

If JR Becomes GM,

I would SERIOUSLY MARK OUT!!

He should Fire Michael Cole, and Cole will become a manager.

[Tha Black Phenom]

You know the absolute most hilarious thing about this?

JR was fired on the exact same date 6 years ago.

Love the consistency.

[GhostDogg]

Weird...

and the Conspiracy continues.

[Nedew]

That was such a weird Raw.

[Adam_Starr36]

Man, they made CM Punk look horrible right?.. I mean so horrible, because one minute he was one of the top 3 faces of the WWE along with Triple H, the commentator, then in the main event against Del Rio, then won a 2-on-1 practically by DQ, but main evented twice in one night, plus became the main focus of WWE again, by having Triple H align with him against Awesome Truth... Now doesn't CM Punk look so left out?

[GhostDogg]

Very true.
I mean lets recap shall we..

1. Vince comes out to fire Trips, the same manner that Trips did to him after MitB.

2. Johnny Ace fires JR, right after siding with Ace last week.

3. Ace rehires Awesome Truth.

4. Possible Stable between Xtian, ZigSwag and Cody aka "Bagman"....

5. Possible Alliance with Trips and Punk...


Very Weird. But better than Predictable ..right?

[Adam_Starr36]

I don't know if it was the goal of it, but I liked it.

[GhostDogg]

I guess WWE is adopting a new formula..

Weird > Predicable

[matthew222]

Why does JR always get fired I swear! Authority's never like him

He is the best Announcer in WWE Right now

[Tha Black Phenom]

That's why heels always fire him, I know I wouldn't feel sorry if they fired Lawler.. I'd be ecstatic.

Hmm.. I'm just wondering now whether HHH is gonna come back full-time or not. Could go either way. Dunno how I'd feel about if he did.

[OldStingberg]

Man, they made CM Punk look horrible right?.. I mean so horrible, because one minute he was one of the top 3 faces of the WWE along with Triple H, the commentator, then in the main event against Del Rio, then won a 2-on-1 practically by DQ, but main evented twice in one night, plus became the main focus of WWE again, by having Triple H align with him against Awesome Truth... Now doesn't CM Punk look so left out?

I'm going to be blunt with you, because I think your condescending sarcasm is ridiculous.

What you said honestly makes you look like an idiot.

What I and many others have been saying is that the WWE inexplicably devalued CM Punk when he their hottest wrestler in years.

I'm pretty sure I, nor anyone else ever, said that the WWE will never give Punk a real high-level push again. So you coming in here with all your sarcasm pointing out how it looks like they're positioning Punk to actually win a match again, it makes you look like an idiot who didn't really understand the points people were making, yet decided to go all gung-ho with the condescending sarcasm anyway.

I doubt that's what you were going for, so you might want to be a bit more careful in the future.

[OldStingberg]

Anyway, what the hell's with Mason Ryan continuing to steal Zack Ryder's push? Ryder's a solid worker who managed to get himself over, and now they're sidelining him in order to spotlight a horrible worker who might not get over even with a crazy push behind him. What a bizarre decision.

Besides that, my biggest takeaway from tonight was how anti-climactic the returns of Vince, Miz, and Truth were. Seemed like they were building to something more than that.

And I really, really don't want to see more of Lauranaitis and less of JR. Or any more of a screeching Kelly Kelly in an ass-backwards story.

I did enjoy the opening segment, though, and I'm encouraged that Punk might matter again. But after that opening segment, the show just didn't feel all that fun. A 90-minute span where the fan-friendly moments were supposed to come from a Mason Ryan win and an Eve win seems poorly thought out.

[Adam_Starr36]

I'm going to be blunt with you, because I think your condescending sarcasm is ridiculous.

What you said honestly makes you look like an idiot.

What I and many others have been saying is that the WWE inexplicably devalued CM Punk when he their hottest wrestler in years.

I'm pretty sure I, nor anyone else ever, said that the WWE will never give Punk a real high-level push again. So you coming in here with all your sarcasm pointing out how it looks like they're positioning Punk to actually win a match again, it makes you look like an idiot who didn't really understand the points people were making, yet decided to go all gung-ho with the condescending sarcasm anyway.

I doubt that's what you were going for, so you might want to be a bit more careful in the future.

Well, I never really post in here ever, I just like to hear news on any WWE event, because, well, I'm a fan, I'm a mark for WWE and have been for years, and lately, I'll agree about the PG era and all that stuff.. But you, I'm sure not just you, have been complaining and complaining about CM Punk.

Nothing against Punk in any way ever, he's FAR more talented than Cena is, and probably ever will be, but Cena is WWE's draw. It's Vince McMahon's company, and his management team/him/whoever decides on who they want to push and all that, so why insist on complaining they are not going to push someone you want pushed, or as you say " devalueing one of their hottest talents in years " That's great and all, and I agree with you again, Punk is a GOD when it comes to talent, but WWE insists on Cena being their top draw.

Plus, Punk is definitely Main Event Calibre, no doubt about that, otherwise why does he consistly show up in main events?..

Why does he continue to get screen time? Over the years Punk's been in WWE, he's been noticed, he gets more cheers then most of the main draws a LOT.... So okay, he's a indy darling, and if you haven't noticed Vince is not very keen on pushing guys who were mostly brought up in indy promotions, although, he seems to be doing just that, Punk has beaten Cena more than a few times, he has won both World and WWE title, he's getting pushed, it's just realistic manner or maybe not-so realistic manner, but he's getting there, so let it be.

And you can always play TEW and make your big CM Punk moment, and push him to the moon all you want, but this is WWE we are talking about..Come on you know the only push their certain choices of who they think could be a draw, like choosing Mason Ryan over Zack Ryder, this is WWE buddy.. I agree with you on a lot of points, but complaining non-stop about this does nothing for you.. Write an email to Vince McMahon or someone from WWE, maybe they'll ignore your email, maybe they'll see the light and book the way you want.

Plus, you know, if they gave Punk the big push that you seem to be wanting, I'm guessing like Cena's .. SuperCena push, you'll just end up hating Punk as much as you hate or dislike Cena.

[OldStingberg]

Again, you're not even bothering to discuss anything I actually said. It's like you've got this stereotype of the IWC in your head, you're applying that to me, and you're just railing against that, relevance to the current discussion be damned. Feel free to continue, but count me out.

[Adam_Starr36]

Again, you're not even bothering to discuss anything I actually said. It's like you've got this stereotype of the IWC in your head, you're applying that to me, and you're just railing against that, relevance to the current discussion be damned. Feel free to continue, but count me out.


But you, I'm sure not just you, have been complaining and complaining about CM Punk.

See, that points out you, and not just you..everyone who is acting like you and complaining about Punk should be pushed better or whatever... It's like I gotta highlight everything for you, did you even read what I said? ..


What I and many others have been saying is that the WWE inexplicably devalued CM Punk when he their hottest wrestler in years.


I'm pretty sure if you read through what I had said, or skimmed the beginning of it, yeah, I answered your devalued Punk theory. I just further explained he's been getting a " Real-time push " or " Slow Build " to him, meaning he's moving up, but in a " realistic " fashion.. Understanding all of this buddy?

And once again, I agree, good time over the summer to pull the trigger on a push for Punk, but that time is done and over, so no more tears, okay? :p

I'm done, no more posting in here for probably a few more months... Have fun!

[Stennick]

I'm pretty sure if you read through what I had said, or skimmed the beginning of it, yeah, I answered your devalued Punk theory. I just further explained he's been getting a " Real-time push " or " Slow Build " to him, meaning he's moving up, but in a " realistic " fashion.. Understanding all of this buddy?

He might but I'm just a poor uneducated soul that can't seem to understand. Explain to me how CM Punk from the MiTB was hot and saying all the things he was saying and winning the world championship, only to lose it what less than a month later at the very next pay per view. How is that a "slow build". Winning the world title and then losing it in your very first defense is a "slow build" I'm confused.

But I'm sure you'll break it down, spotlight it and and explain it for me since you seem to be so good at that. In fact why go away when you have such a great attitude and seem to be on such a higher level of thinking when it comes to pro wrestling storylines. Please stay and bless us all for a few more pages of "wisdom".

[Fantabulous]

The turned Punk into a kiss-ass and a very secondary character in a show built around making Triple H into the top babyface. And now Punk is teaming with Triple H, so I guess there's no need for Punk to get his big win over Triple H. Yeah, they're doing a great job with Punk and I'm glad we've got some more bringers of truth to tell us the real deal. Wait, you mean the guy ran off? But we need him. We need bringers of truth to tell us what the real deal is because we know we can't believe our eyes.

[bigtplaystew]

The turned Punk into a kiss-ass and a very secondary character in a show built around making Triple H into the top babyface. And now Punk is teaming with Triple H, so I guess there's no need for Punk to get his big win over Triple H. Yeah, they're doing a great job with Punk and I'm glad we've got some more bringers of truth to tell us the real deal. Wait, you mean the guy ran off? But we need him. We need bringers of truth to tell us what the real deal is because we know we can't believe our eyes.



You STILL can't seem to make a point without throwing childish insults around I see...


Anyway


I think you are 100% wrong. They are trying to elevate both HHH and CM Punk. I don't at any point see Punk "kissing ass" as you put it. Was Punk kissing Cena's ass after their feud or did they go the "mutual respect" route. In fact, HHH came up to Punk to perhaps shake his hand (during the opening segment) and Punk put his hand up to stop him. Thats not ass kissing to me.

I mean they want to get both guys over as babyface characters. A "reluctant team" angle is generally a way for guys to do it. I'm not saying it's stellar booking but that's a whole different conversation.

[JTandSilentBob]

I really don't see how Punk's momentum has stalled at all. He is in the Main Event almost every week. He gets one of the biggest reactions every week.

It's also because of CM Punk that the biggest storyline WWE has had in years is happening. Punk says WWE would be better without Vince. Vince is gone. Punk name drops Johnny Ace and all of a sudden Ace is on tv when he hadn't been in years. More recently he said that he didn't like the "new" Triple H and he wanted the "old" Triple H back, low and behold Triple H is wrestling again.

I guess it's exactly like Tito at LOP says. He was "Buried."

If you are unhappy with their treatment of Punk then the WWE then they are doing exactly what they are trying to do. Gain sympathy for him. He isn't a Brock Lesnar type wrestler that's gonna go out and squash everyone, he is going to take a beating and keep coming. He's gonna run his mouth, get beat up and eventually beat the odds. You saying he's been treated unfairly is what the WWE wants you to think, that way you'll be much happier when he does come out on top.

However if you are completely unhappy with the product as a whole then you should probably just turn off the tv. If you don't like something why subject yourself to the pain of watching it.

I despise TNA and rarely have anything positive to say about it, so I just don't watch, and haven't watched for months. I also don't run my mouth about the product either, because I have given up on them.

I sit back and enjoy wrestling. I watch like I'm a kid again. I like the little things. I don't squirm everytime Mason Ryan is on tv, I don't get too upset that Zack Ryder isn't. I don't generally dislike anyone for their in-ring work. I get attached to their characters. I don't criticize everything. I actually want to like wrestling, so I do.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

If you don't like something why subject yourself to the pain of watching it.

I ask myself this any time I watch my favourite teams play. Unless they are amazing, I am down in the dumps about it:D

[Fantabulous]

...

I wish I was as blissful as you.

[OldStingberg]

I actually want to like wrestling, so I do.
To be honest, that's very obvious. Because this...

If you are unhappy with their treatment of Punk then the WWE then they are doing exactly what they are trying to do.

...is a laughable amount of spin. I'm not unhappy that the big bad mean Miz and R-Truth are beating up on poor little Punk and why don't they just let him be different because gosh darn I'm different too.

I'm unhappy they've taken one of their hottest stars in years and have killed his momentum in order to elevate non-wrestlers in a story a lot of people think is terrible. Somehow, I don't think that's the emotion the WWE is trying to evoke.

I would love to be able to shut my brain off and not think things like, "wow, Lauranaitis sure is a terrible actor" or "wasn't Raw more dangerous this week than it was before the walkout" or "well that was incredibly sexist" or "ha, Mason Ryan botched getting into the ring on the hot tag", but I can't. Even with the ridiculous amount of leeway I'm willing to give the WWE, I'm still going to think about the quality of the entertainment they're offering.

But I suppose maybe making me unhappy with the quality of their programming is exactly what the WWE is trying to do. Those geniuses!

[Fantabulous]

Have we brought up the fact that Punk the Rebel has been turned into Punk the Kiss-Ass, thereby turning him into the complete opposite of what got him hot in the first place?

[bigtplaystew]

Have we brought up the fact that Punk the Rebel has been turned into Punk the Kiss-Ass, thereby turning him into the complete opposite of what got him hot in the first place?

Yes. I addressed it. I said he's not a kiss ass. What makes him a kiss ass? That he did the "i love wrestling" speech? He didnt hug HHH or even shake his hand so I think calling him a "kiss ass" is a bit off base.

[Tha Black Phenom]

There's nothing to rebel against anymore... we just heard Punk talk about what he believes in and which fits with the whole story. That people are walking out the 'wrong way' and for the wrong reason. I thought when he said "I made walking out look cool", it was funny. And at the end of the day.. he's a babyface. I hope people haven't expected the full Austin deal from him.

He can start crap with Johnny Ace for sure.. maybe that'll come in time.

If he rebelled against Trips at this point, he'd just look like a resentful douche, and he'd come across really bad for it.

[OldStingberg]

There's nothing to rebel against anymore.

...what?

What has changed? John Cena is still being fed title shots, CM Punk still (at least in his character's eyes) has to feel underutilized, guys like Mason Ryan are still getting an absurd amount of TV time while guys like Colt Cabana still can't crack the WWE (he was given a "try out" about a month ago and now the WWE won't take his calls), the amount of actual wrestling on Raw has managed to go down so that Vince's family and/or stooges can put the spotlight on themselves, etc.

Pretty much all the stuff Punk rebelled about before hasn't changed, except that Punk has better shirts and he's in the opening to Raw now.

edit: Oh, and now F4W is reporting that John Morrison is probably done with the WWE once his contract expires soon. Summer Punk would have had a field day with the WWE driving out a talented and popular wrestler reportedly because they were upset with the woman he happened to be dating.

The idea that there's nothing for Punk to rebel against is mind-blowing.

[20LEgend]

I am not liking where this is going BUT it is keeping me damn hooked! CM Punk shaking hands with Triple H pissed me off so much, I wish a couple of people would have made it clear they were back for the new GM and not Johnny Ace because to see for E.g Bryan shaking Ace's hand seemed weird since he played a huge role in the chaos.

I can't put my finger on it, but so many part in this story leave me uneasy with what has happened and it feels like there are holes left, like why didn't commentary say something about unsafe environment because of "ZigSwag" and co. even after the incident. I just feel unsatisfied after going crazy in my head about how great it could be, and it has become another story IMO, I'll say it again though, I'll continue to tune in!

[bookerman]

My tweets during RAW

I turned on @wwe RAW and Impact broke out

We need a sign that says I didn't pay to see HHH or Vince. I paid for wrestling!

Watching RAW is like buying tickets for Cats and then watching the stagehands argue.

I also recommend following @sethmates on twitter.

Everything in the promotion is now 2nd to the COO/GM/Walkout angle. No reaction for the announced Cena vs ADR match which is not a good sign.

Morrison and Melina will probably both wind up in TNA. Morrison certainly doesn't have the promo skills to be a main eventer, but his flashy offense and look will keep him in a good spot.

[jjohns44]

"Would you like a receipt with that paper bag"

ok if that's going to be a catch phrase, Cody really needs to work on that one.

[Stennick]

I think OSB, Fantabulous and Bookerman have the right idea and they're all speaking the truth. Anybody that thinks this "character" of CM Punk is the same one that cut those scathing promos and walked out on the company is in critical denial.

[Fantabulous]

...what?

What has changed? John Cena is still being fed title shots, CM Punk still (at least in his character's eyes) has to feel underutilized, guys like Mason Ryan are still getting an absurd amount of TV time while guys like Colt Cabana still can't crack the WWE (he was given a "try out" about a month ago and now the WWE won't take his calls), the amount of actual wrestling on Raw has managed to go down so that Vince's family and/or stooges can put the spotlight on themselves, etc.

Pretty much all the stuff Punk rebelled about before hasn't changed, except that Punk has better shirts and he's in the opening to Raw now.

edit: Oh, and now F4W is reporting that John Morrison is probably done with the WWE once his contract expires soon. Summer Punk would have had a field day with the WWE driving out a talented and popular wrestler reportedly because they were upset with the woman he happened to be dating.

The idea that there's nothing for Punk to rebel against is mind-blowing.

I know it should be obvious that this is the case, and you've given some great examples. so I genuinely wonder how things so obvious can go over the heads of so many. It's amazing, really.

[sabataged]

I think OSB, Fantabulous and Bookerman have the right idea and they're all speaking the truth. Anybody that thinks this "character" of CM Punk is the same one that cut those scathing promos and walked out on the company is in critical denial.


It is in no way the same character...BUT (there is always a BUT), I honestly how long can you keep the pipe bomb gimmick going until it seems like he is saying the same old crap every week. Then he quickly turns from the guy wanting change to Jericho (the crybaby). If Punk was going to remain a face he had to evolve away from that character. The only possible way to keep him face, and keep him doing that character was too turn John Cena heel, opening up the #1 face spot. Sorry I just don't think Orton is a top face.

[eayragt]

I don't mind what they've done with Punk. I don't see how they could have had him keep his momentum so high without destroying everyone else.

Good to know this makes me a niave mark who doesn't understand wrestling or Sports Entertainment, and has no idea about what makes WWE money.

I can't understand why some people on this forum aren't signed up to the WWE Creative Team to revolutionize the wrestling industry. Don't they understand that some people are more important to the industry than John Cena?
:rolleyes:

[bigtplaystew]

I see OldStingBerg's points. I feel like there's a definite happy medium between the rebel punk and the "kiss ass" Fantabulous seems to be seeing. I would love to see Punk go more in that direction where he was calling people out. He was funny and compelling. But you can't do worked shoots every week either or the "fans" will complain that they have no meaning and are getting dull. I also think he's trying to portray a different and reasonable side of himself that doesn't hate EVERYTHING the WWE does.

[Fantabulous]

It is in no way the same character...BUT (there is always a BUT), I honestly how long can you keep the pipe bomb gimmick going until it seems like he is saying the same old crap every week. Then he quickly turns from the guy wanting change to Jericho (the crybaby). If Punk was going to remain a face he had to evolve away from that character. The only possible way to keep him face, and keep him doing that character was too turn John Cena heel, opening up the #1 face spot. Sorry I just don't think Orton is a top face.

It's true that a character has to evolve to avoid going stale, but if a particular character gets hot you don't 'evolve' it by turning it into the complete antithesis of itself. That's not evolving a character, that's killing it dead. But hey, common sense and logic like that appears lost on most around here.

[OldStingberg]

It is in no way the same character...BUT (there is always a BUT), I honestly how long can you keep the pipe bomb gimmick going until it seems like he is saying the same old crap every week. Then he quickly turns from the guy wanting change to Jericho (the crybaby). If Punk was going to remain a face he had to evolve away from that character. The only possible way to keep him face, and keep him doing that character was too turn John Cena heel, opening up the #1 face spot. Sorry I just don't think Orton is a top face.

The thing is, he doesn't have to do worked shoots every week. He doesn't have to keep reciting the huge list of the WWE's problems to remain edgy and interesting. For example, I think he should have brought back the old winged eagle belt when he returned after MitB. He could have said that any belt good enough for Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, the two greatest wrestlers ever, is good enough for him. Then when him and Cena wrestled at SS (or NoC, if they wanted a good build), they could have the match determine which belt would be used, with Punk winning. That's a simple way for Punk to remain edgy and appeal to relapsed WWE fans without hurting the promotion at all and it'd get rid of the current horrid belt design.

They could have even built on that, having Punk restore some prestige to the tag team and IC championships by bringing back the old belts. That'd also give a bit of a rub to Air Boom (and the tag team division) and Cody Rhodes.

If bringing back some old belts isn't feasible, and I'm not sure why not because I doubt there's many people with disposable income still itching to buy Cena's belt, there's other stuff that can be done. What about during that 12-man match, instead of Mason Ryan (because they don't want to bury him) The Great Khali comes out, Punk gets on the mic and tells him that while he is very tall, they need an actual wrestler, and calls out Zack Ryder. That certainly hurts Khali, he's reportedly on the way out anyway, but it also gives a rub to Ryder and furthers Punk doing things differently.

Or when one of the heels tries one of their generic heel tricks, Punk doesn't fall for it, instead kind of breaking the fourth wall and acting like it's ridiculous that anyone falls for that sort of stuff.

There's countless little things like that they could have Punk do, while occasionally letting him speak some uncomfortable truths, that would make his babyface-ness different and interesting. Instead, Punk has turned into a generic babyface.

[bigtplaystew]

It's true that a character has to evolve to avoid going stale, but if a particular character gets hot you don't 'evolve' it by turning it into the complete antithesis of itself. That's not evolving a character, that's killing it dead. But hey, common sense and logic like that appears lost on most around here.

Fantabulous. Make your point without the obvious insults. I just went back and checked out the last few pages. I think all but two of your posts were on point without being completely condescending and/or flat out insulting. You need to rethink your approach to disagreements. It isn't necessary to throw these insults around in order to make your point. In fact, I think it's counterproductive to what you are trying to do. Your intelligence is overshadowed by these petty and unfunny shots you take at anyone who disagrees with you. This isn't personal. You can take shots at me all day if you want to. But do it privately. If you consistently bait people into bickering and immature name calling we will have yet another thread shut down on us. I don't want that to happen.






The thing is, he doesn't have to do worked shoots every week. He doesn't have to keep reciting the huge list of the WWE's problems to remain edgy and interesting. For example, I think he should have brought back the old winged eagle belt when he returned after MitB. He could have said that any belt good enough for Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, the two greatest wrestlers ever, is good enough for him. Then when him and Cena wrestled at SS (or NoC, if they wanted a good build), they could have the match determine which belt would be used, with Punk winning. That's a simple way for Punk to remain edgy and appeal to relapsed WWE fans without hurting the promotion at all and it'd get rid of the current horrid belt design.

They could have even built on that, having Punk restore some prestige to the tag team and IC championships by bringing back the old belts. That'd also give a bit of a rub to Air Boom (and the tag team division) and Cody Rhodes.

If bringing back some old belts isn't feasible, and I'm not sure why not because I doubt there's many people with disposable income still itching to buy Cena's belt, there's other stuff that can be done. What about during that 12-man match, instead of Mason Ryan (because they don't want to bury him) The Great Khali comes out, Punk gets on the mic and tells him that while he is very tall, they need an actual wrestler, and calls out Zack Ryder. That certainly hurts Khali, he's reportedly on the way out anyway, but it also gives a rub to Ryder and furthers Punk doing things differently.

Or when one of the heels tries one of their generic heel tricks, Punk doesn't fall for it, instead kind of breaking the fourth wall and acting like it's ridiculous that anyone falls for that sort of stuff.

There's countless little things like that they could have Punk do, while occasionally letting him speak some uncomfortable truths, that would make his babyface-ness different and interesting. Instead, Punk has turned into a generic babyface.

I actually like alot of these ideas. Bringing back the old winged belts probably wont happen because I think WWE doesn't have the exclusive likeness rights to that belt but I'm not sure of all that. Hogan uses it in his new game which isn't WWE endorsed.

But your points are understandable. I agree that Punk should be handled differently. I simply disagree with the overreaction some of the fans are having. No one is burying punk. He isn't kissing anyones ass. He doesn't look weak. He simply isn't as strong as he once was. It doesn't have to be one extreme or the other. Some slight improvements and changes to his character can be made. Hopefully, if the rumors are true, Punk's looking at some big things in the future so we'll see how it plays out. But I am becoming of the opinion that he needs to be handled differently to maximize his full potential as a possible top draw leading into a huge wrestlemania.

[Stennick]

What happened to "I don't hate you John, I hate what you represent". What happened to that? Wasn't this about CHANGING the way things were. The voice of the voiceless? Isn't he now teaming with HHH and Cena and others doesn't that make him the voice of the already voiceful or whatever?

He doesn't have to do shoots every week to remain edgy. I've enjoyed some of his little jabs. "click is the sound of people's remotes when you begin to talk, click is the sound of your knees everytime you take a step".

Again answer me how does it make sense for Punk to win the title, then he leaves, then they give away Rey Mysterio Jr vs. Cena on LIVE tv for FREE. That could have been your summerslam main event right there. They are two of the most popular superstars on the roster and within a certain age of the fanbase they are THE two most popular wrestlers. Then instead Punk comes back and loses the WWE title in his FIRST title defense who then turns around and loses to Cena in his SECOND title defense who then turns around and loses it to Del Rio in his FIRST title defense. Seriously guys Impact Wrestling is better than RAW right now and it hurts nobody more than me to say that.

They did with this what they did with the Nexus last year. Less than a month into it they killed the gimmick dead. Remember the "OMG they just beat everyone up and destroyed the set" feeling we had when they debuted? Less than a month later they were dead in the water. Same thing here, about a month after Punk's angle began he was losing to John Cena at Summerslam.

People are going to come in here and make excuses and talk of this plan or that plan or whatever else. Fact is you had a chance to do something different and now just like everything else this is a McMahon story and has been since the night after Money in the Bank. How many McMahon/Evil GM stories are we going to see?

The guys in here that I expect to get it, Sab, Fantabulous, Stew, OSB they seem to be getting it.

If I got to a movie that has an awesome first act and then it just becomes some other movie entirely for the rest of the movie and I walk out of it and say "man they screwed up an awesome movie" or "man I want to see the rest of the movie from that first act" does that mean I should be a director in hollywood? Does that mean I think I should write scripts? If I complain at McDonalds that half my fries were cold and the other half were perfect does that mean I think I should be a fry cooker at McDonalds?

No that means I'm purchasing a product and in the case of RAW I purchased Money in the Bank, I tune into RAW every week, I visit their website. These things help them in obvious ways. I purchase their DVD's. I am their customer and if I'm upset with the product I'm paying for I have every right to say "no thats not what I want" and I also have every right as a fan to say "this is what I want'. Just like as a Rams fan I can say "I want this player in the draft or that player in the draft". If my team bombs and we go 0-16 (might actually happen ugh) does that mean because I'm upset and I'm voicing it that I'm a know it all? No it means I'm a fan and I want to be a happy fan. Does that mean I shouldn't watch if I'm unhappy? No it means I can watch and hope the product makes me interested again. I won't know when things start to get appealing if I stop watching. If I would have stopped watching after Wrestlemania I would have never got to see that Punk promo live, I wouldn't have gotten to enjoy the Money in the Bank match. So "don't watch it if you don't like it" doesn't make much sense. Why do you care if I complain about it? Why do you care if I watch or not? I can't change the weather a bit doesn't mean I can't complain about it.

[Fantabulous]

What happened to "I don't hate you John, I hate what you represent". What happened to that? Wasn't this about CHANGING the way things were. The voice of the voiceless? Isn't he now teaming with HHH and Cena and others doesn't that make him the voice of the already voiceful or whatever?

He doesn't have to do shoots every week to remain edgy. I've enjoyed some of his little jabs. "click is the sound of people's remotes when you begin to talk, click is the sound of your knees everytime you take a step".

Again answer me how does it make sense for Punk to win the title, then he leaves, then they give away Rey Mysterio Jr vs. Cena on LIVE tv for FREE. That could have been your summerslam main event right there. They are two of the most popular superstars on the roster and within a certain age of the fanbase they are THE two most popular wrestlers. Then instead Punk comes back and loses the WWE title in his FIRST title defense who then turns around and loses to Cena in his SECOND title defense who then turns around and loses it to Del Rio in his FIRST title defense. Seriously guys Impact Wrestling is better than RAW right now and it hurts nobody more than me to say that.

They did with this what they did with the Nexus last year. Less than a month into it they killed the gimmick dead. Remember the "OMG they just beat everyone up and destroyed the set" feeling we had when they debuted? Less than a month later they were dead in the water. Same thing here, about a month after Punk's angle began he was losing to John Cena at Summerslam.

People are going to come in here and make excuses and talk of this plan or that plan or whatever else. Fact is you had a chance to do something different and now just like everything else this is a McMahon story and has been since the night after Money in the Bank. How many McMahon/Evil GM stories are we going to see?

The guys in here that I expect to get it, Sab, Fantabulous, Stew, OSB they seem to be getting it.

If I got to a movie that has an awesome first act and then it just becomes some other movie entirely for the rest of the movie and I walk out of it and say "man they screwed up an awesome movie" or "man I want to see the rest of the movie from that first act" does that mean I should be a director in hollywood? Does that mean I think I should write scripts? If I complain at McDonalds that half my fries were cold and the other half were perfect does that mean I think I should be a fry cooker at McDonalds?

No that means I'm purchasing a product and in the case of RAW I purchased Money in the Bank, I tune into RAW every week, I visit their website. These things help them in obvious ways. I purchase their DVD's. I am their customer and if I'm upset with the product I'm paying for I have every right to say "no thats not what I want" and I also have every right as a fan to say "this is what I want'. Just like as a Rams fan I can say "I want this player in the draft or that player in the draft". If my team bombs and we go 0-16 (might actually happen ugh) does that mean because I'm upset and I'm voicing it that I'm a know it all? No it means I'm a fan and I want to be a happy fan. Does that mean I shouldn't watch if I'm unhappy? No it means I can watch and hope the product makes me interested again. I won't know when things start to get appealing if I stop watching. If I would have stopped watching after Wrestlemania I would have never got to see that Punk promo live, I wouldn't have gotten to enjoy the Money in the Bank match. So "don't watch it if you don't like it" doesn't make much sense. Why do you care if I complain about it? Why do you care if I watch or not? I can't change the weather a bit doesn't mean I can't complain about it.

Touchd....oh, wait; as a Rams fan, you might not know what that is. ;)

Home Run!

[bookerman]

The WWE misunderstood the "what is going to happen at MITB?" buzz for "what unpredictable thing is the WWE going to do now" and started employing Russo level shock tactics (fire Vince and hire HHH, fire Truth/Miz, Kevin Nash, post HIAC beatdown, the walkout, fire HHH and hire Ace) thinking that is what got the buzz going.

The movie analogy is excellent. In July, we got a hot opening act, but things went downhill from there.

Per WON, last night wasn't the original script for the show. If I could change ONE thing in WWE, it would the creative process and creating long term plans and then sticking to them. Look at the Henry push up to last Monday (cause then it went off the tracks). That is what they are capable of doing when they get behind a character and follow through.

Former Creative guy John Piermarini (sp) suggested the WWE write in 3 month story archs. Not a bad idea at all. After 3 months, you have a better idea of if the story worked or not and can do longer term programs like Cena/ADR/Punk without having to rush things. That provides an opening act (month 1), rising action (month 2 - run ins, interferences, backstage attacks, new allies, etc), climax (month 3 - blowoff matches). They can also overlap stories such that if 6 stories are happening, then 2-3 can wrap up each month and characters can go in a new direction. I wouldn't think it would be too hard to layout a feud over 12 weeks that includes 3 ppv matches and 8-10 TV appearances (interviews, tags, 6 man matches 3/4 way matches, etc).

[sheepy]

All I know is that Punk's promo got me interested in the WWE again. Now I'm not. Tells me all I need to know really.

TNA, although riddled with mind blowing booking, have a vague sort of inclining of how to book long term stories that the WWE either has forgotten (or more likely) never really knew.

It's hard to think of any storyline in recent times that has gone more than a couple of months and been successful other than the NWO vs. Sting.

[bookerman]

RAW got a 3.25 which is a .2 increase and the highest rating since mid-August. HOWEVER, they lost 13% of the audience during the 2nd hour. From what I've read, people tuned in for the walkout fallout, but as the show went on, people left in droves.

Dunno if this will encourage more cliffhanger/HHH/GM/COO angles, but I'm sure someone is going to jump on the fact that the ratings jumped and think it was a great show.

[Wrestling Century]

To be honest, that's very obvious. Because this...



...is a laughable amount of spin. I'm not unhappy that the big bad mean Miz and R-Truth are beating up on poor little Punk and why don't they just let him be different because gosh darn I'm different too.

I'm unhappy they've taken one of their hottest stars in years and have killed his momentum in order to elevate non-wrestlers in a story a lot of people think is terrible. Somehow, I don't think that's the emotion the WWE is trying to evoke.

I would love to be able to shut my brain off and not think things like, "wow, Lauranaitis sure is a terrible actor" or "wasn't Raw more dangerous this week than it was before the walkout" or "well that was incredibly sexist" or "ha, Mason Ryan botched getting into the ring on the hot tag", but I can't. Even with the ridiculous amount of leeway I'm willing to give the WWE, I'm still going to think about the quality of the entertainment they're offering.

But I suppose maybe making me unhappy with the quality of their programming is exactly what the WWE is trying to do. Those geniuses!

I don't know if anybody has noticed, but CM Punk is actually getting BIGGER reactions from the crowd now than he was after he came back from "leaving" the WWE after MitB. This story has actually gotten me to look foward to watching WWE each week, something that hasn't happened in a long, long time. If you don't like this story, then perhaps the WWE's product just isn't for you? Watch ROH or some puroresu. That's what I did when I got sick of the WWE for a while.

[lazorbeak]

I don't know if anybody has noticed, but CM Punk is actually getting BIGGER reactions from the crowd now than he was after he came back from "leaving" the WWE after MitB. This story has actually gotten me to look foward to watching WWE each week, something that hasn't happened in a long, long time. If you don't like this story, then perhaps the WWE's product just isn't for you? Watch ROH or some puroresu. That's what I did when I got sick of the WWE for a while.

That's not really proving anything: when he came back, he was still getting somewhat mixed reactions from the casual fans that had seen him as a heel for the past couple years. If a newly turned babyface isn't getting bigger reactions every week, something is going horribly wrong.

[sabataged]

The guys in here that I expect to get it, Sab, Fantabulous, Stew, OSB they seem to be getting it.


I think you just miss me stennick

[MrOnu]

Honestly, CM Punk rebel persona died for me the minute he came out on RAW the next after MitB. It was a flaw in the logic of his persona so big for me that it could never be recevored. So I kinda find it funny when people talk about Punk-the-rebel as I don't believe he's been in that role for months. He does have a set of beliefs and principles he follows every week, but being rebellous (sp?) is not one of them. Punk could have been bigger by now with different booking decisions, but I can't say he's being faded out either. He's still hanging with the key players, having valuable air time and an integrated part of the main storyline.

On to something else now. I still don't get the buzz around Mason Ryan. He still looks like a poor version of Batista to me, which is really not a good thing.

Quick question : wasn't the Big Show a RAW member before his injury ? They are confusing the hell out of me with the rosters...

[Stennick]

Sab I do miss you man. I remember a time about two years back before there were so many reasonable people in the Dog Pound. I remember a time when we were the lone voices of the voiceless in this place. I'm happy to report a slew of people now that seem to have logic induced thinking.

Lazorbeak I left you off the list but although you may not always agree with and be agreed with you certainly have logic based thinking and I agree with your post one hundred percent.

I think we've exhausted the "Vince screwed up again" discussion and the "this is the new attitude era" discussion.

So here's a question I hope doesn't get skimmed over. Its 2011, Raw has had virtually the same set (jumptron, ramp, opening promo, ring set up, for the last 15 years or so.

How would you freshen up RAW. From the way its presented to the way its formatted. I'm not asking for storylines just things like "I'd like to see this style of wrestling more" or "I'd like to see this style promo" or "I'd like a new set that looks like". Although I'm sure even this will be met with "RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half".

[bigtplaystew]

Honestly, CM Punk rebel persona died for me the minute he came out on RAW the next after MitB. It was a flaw in the logic of his persona so big for me that it could never be recevored. So I kinda find it funny when people talk about Punk-the-rebel as I don't believe he's been in that role for months. He does have a set of beliefs and principles he follows every week, but being rebellous (sp?) is not one of them. Punk could have been bigger by now with different booking decisions, but I can't say he's being faded out either. He's still hanging with the key players, having valuable air time and an integrated part of the main storyline.

So the only way the Punk "rebel" persona would have worked for you was if he actually left the company? Not saying this to be a smartass I'm legitimately curious as to if this was your point.


Not saying any of this is realistic, but I was asked to give an opinion so I shall. I'd make the following changes to RAW:

1) A deeper commitment to long term storylines. We are starting to see this in the top feuds but I'd like to see this with the lower card guys as well. Longer, more intricate stories involving multiple characters at once is a good way to keep their gigantic roster fresh and interesting. I think we might be seeing some of this with the Otunga/Guerrero stable and stuff like that. Or it could just be leading to a lame survivor series match no one will care about. We'll just have to see I guess.

2) I'd take Cole off of RAW. Maybe even Lawler. Lawler, Booker, and Cole would be a great team on Smackdown. They've worked well together int he past I think. But I agree that the presentation is stale and I'd probably look to replace the announce team on RAW. Cole being the lead announcer definitely should change. I think his heel persona works but it's also counter productive to achieving a mainstream audience.

3) Go with guys that can actually wrestle in top storylines. This is the go-to complaint of the IWC and it generally seems to fall on deaf ears. But they are starting to build this level of talent.

Moxley (Dean Ambrose) and Tyler Black (Seth Rollins) had an incredible longform match on FCW not too long ago and I think that level of match quality needs to be sprinkled into the RAW product. I get the feeling that I'm not the only one who fast forwards through most of the crappy, run-of-the-mill 10 minute matches that litter RAW where each guy hits his five spots and then a winner is decided. The RAW matches aren't a big talking point, even on the boards like these. Most of the conversation is bickering about what they should do with certain characters or angles. No one cares about matches on RAW. PPV still gets great matches ever now and then... and they should! But so should raw. I feel like they are building a roster of young guys that can work so I'd like to see that explored. It's an unrealistic vision right now as they are getting further away from wrestling as time goes on. But I think a third ECW-level show will be added once the network launches and we may see more match-driven television if that becomes the case. If people catch on, maybe the bigger shows will follow suit.


4) Build a proper long form CM Punk title run.

This is crucial to me. They need to sit down, write out some long term storyline ideas with a clear direction of where punk needs to go. It's obvious that they haven't done this with him. Punk's a versatile guy and I think writers get lazy because of it. He's a pro and will work anything they throw at him. I cant disagree with the guys on this board that are pointing out that the Punk we got coming back after MitB is not the same guy we are seeing in recent weeks. Which can be acceptable if they commit to this and give him a clear direction.

I'd like to see a proper title chase, and a nice lengthy run with several decent feuds and title defenses.

I'd like to see them build a show around him being at the top. It can be done but most likely Cena would have to go to smackdown to make this a reality. Which would be great. Smackdown would get the ratings boost and RAW would look fresher with a real champ and contenders that are properly built around him. Run the super cena crap on the more kid-friendly smackdown and give Raw the edge that the maturing WWE fans want to see.

[BHK1978]

Okay the last time I brought up the past someone told me I was going off topic.:rolleyes: So here I go again going off topic...

The WWE On Demand Channel has some programs for free this month and one of them was the 1997 Royal Rumble. I must say that was one horrible PPV. I know many look at that era with rose colored glasses, much like what I do with the WWF of the 1980's, but one only has to watch a little bit of that PPV to see how crappy the promotion was back then.

I will say this I prefer Jerry Lawler now to back then. At least now he is decent on commentary, back then not so much. Also, I had almost forgotten just how bad Vince was at commentary. That is why I always laugh when I hear that he chews out his announce team for being bad at commentary. I mean come on dude people in glass houses...well you all know the rest.

There was also an MSG card on there from 1989 which I did not get to finish. However, it is odd how three of the wresters in the first four matches have already died. Two from unnatural causes which were the Blue Blazer (Most know how he died) and Dino Bravo (Killed in a mob style hit). The other (Hercules Hernandez) died of natural causes (heart attack) but I am sure steriods played a part in his early death as well.

[dvdWarrior]

There was also an MSG card on there from 1989 which I did not get to finish. However, it is odd how three of the wresters in the first four matches have already died. Two from unnatural causes which were the Blue Blazer (Most know how he died) and Dino Bravo (Killed in a mob style hit). The other (Hercules Hernandez) died of natural causes (heart attack) but I am sure steriods played a part in his early death as well.

I love those Old School cards. Bad as it might sound, with Raw, SmackDown!, iMPACT!, and now ROH all on TV, it's always those Old Schools that I really look forward to. It is always sad to see so very many wrestlers that have passed though, guess that's the one big drawback.

Just saw Macho King face off with The Ultimate Warrior inside the steel cage the other day.

[BHK1978]

I love those Old School cards. Bad as it might sound, with Raw, SmackDown!, iMPACT!, and now ROH all on TV, it's always those Old Schools that I really look forward to. It is always sad to see so very many wrestlers that have passed though, guess that's the one big drawback.

Just saw Macho King face off with The Ultimate Warrior inside the steel cage the other day.

I am the exact same way, I would much rather watch the older stuff than what is currently going on. That goes for wrestling in general, I just find myself having a general lack of interest in it.

Also, I wanted to say I was watching the main event for Starrcade 83 (Not off topic the WWE owns the tapes and both men in the main event worked in the WWF at one time.:p) and Gordon Solie was just so good. By the time I got interested in the NWA it was towards the end of his career so I really do not remember him very well.

However, I was just blown away with how good he was. I really can't explain it but he treated it like a real sport and to me that enhanced it a bit. I think that Jim Ross is one of the best but even he could not touch Gordon Solie.

[dvdWarrior]

However, I was just blown away with how good he was. I really can't explain it but he treated it like a real sport and to me that enhanced it a bit. I think that Jim Ross is one of the best but even he could not touch Gordon Solie.

That's kinda my big bad thing, (that, and of course, my long-standing love affair with the 80s in general): I grew up with the NWA, and it's always been my thing to pretend it's real while I watch it. Solie was always the best at presenting it that way, but I always though Bob Caudle was pretty good too, and Gorilla Monsoon in the WWF, always IMO made it feel like you were watching something real.

I like nothing better than to get lost in an artificial reality; wrestling was so good at that back in the day. It's really hard for me to get that deeply invested in today's product though.

Things just don't seem as real as they used to.

[BHK1978]

That's kinda my big bad thing, (that, and of course, my long-standing love affair with the 80s in general): I grew up with the NWA, and it's always been my thing to pretend it's real while I watch it. Solie was always the best at presenting it that way, but I always though Bob Caudle was pretty good too, and Gorilla Monsoon in the WWF, always IMO made it feel like you were watching something real.

I like nothing better than to get lost in an artificial reality; wrestling was so good at that back in the day. It's really hard for me to get that deeply invested in today's product though.

Things just don't seem as real as they used to.

I always enjoyed Gorilla Monsoon as well and his pairing with the Brain was probably my favorite commentary team in any sport. Although, Phil Rizzuto and Bobby Murcer would be a very close second.

As for Bob Caudle, I am not sure about him. Yes he was good but to me he sort of over sold everything. Almost to the point where he reacted to every heel attack much like Herbert Morrison did during the Hindenburg disaster.

[dvdWarrior]

I always enjoyed Gorilla Monsoon as well and his pairing with the Brain was probably my favorite commentary team in any sport. Although, Phil Rizzuto and Bobby Murcer would be a very close second.

As for Bob Caudle, I am not sure about him. Yes he was good but to me he sort of over sold everything. Almost to the point where he reacted to every heel attack much like Herbert Morrison did during the Hindenburg disaster.

Caudle might be getting the rose-colored glasses treatment from me. Anytime I think of my earliest wrestling memories, it seems like his was always the voice providing the commentary.

The Hiro Matsuda - Johnny Weaver incident for one, (which was a monumental event in my young wrestling psyche), and I can't even swear with 100% accuracy that he was the one making the call on that particular show.

[sheepy]

So here's a question I hope doesn't get skimmed over. Its 2011, Raw has had virtually the same set (jumptron, ramp, opening promo, ring set up, for the last 15 years or so.

How would you freshen up RAW. From the way its presented to the way its formatted. I'm not asking for storylines just things like "I'd like to see this style of wrestling more" or "I'd like to see this style promo" or "I'd like a new set that looks like". Although I'm sure even this will be met with "RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half".

1) First thing I'd love to see is a proper brand split in the way it was first done. Rival GMs trying to poach other stars (none of these drafts). Inter brand rivalry and most importantly, Smackdown home of wrestling. Raw home of entertainment. Both need to be treated as A shows.

2) Stop only pushing dull, generic types. Raw lacks colour (think Goldust, The Hurricane etc) - it's a lesser show because of this.

[sabataged]

Sab I do miss you man. I remember a time about two years back before there were so many reasonable people in the Dog Pound. I remember a time when we were the lone voices of the voiceless in this place. I'm happy to report a slew of people now that seem to have logic induced thinking.

Lazorbeak I left you off the list but although you may not always agree with and be agreed with you certainly have logic based thinking and I agree with your post one hundred percent.

I think we've exhausted the "Vince screwed up again" discussion and the "this is the new attitude era" discussion.

So here's a question I hope doesn't get skimmed over. Its 2011, Raw has had virtually the same set (jumptron, ramp, opening promo, ring set up, for the last 15 years or so.

How would you freshen up RAW. From the way its presented to the way its formatted. I'm not asking for storylines just things like "I'd like to see this style of wrestling more" or "I'd like to see this style promo" or "I'd like a new set that looks like". Although I'm sure even this will be met with "RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half".

Personally I think RAW looks just fine the way it is

[Astil]

Sab I do miss you man. I remember a time about two years back before there were so many reasonable people in the Dog Pound. I remember a time when we were the lone voices of the voiceless in this place. I'm happy to report a slew of people now that seem to have logic induced thinking.

Lazorbeak I left you off the list but although you may not always agree with and be agreed with you certainly have logic based thinking and I agree with your post one hundred percent.

I think we've exhausted the "Vince screwed up again" discussion and the "this is the new attitude era" discussion.

So here's a question I hope doesn't get skimmed over. Its 2011, Raw has had virtually the same set (jumptron, ramp, opening promo, ring set up, for the last 15 years or so.

How would you freshen up RAW. From the way its presented to the way its formatted. I'm not asking for storylines just things like "I'd like to see this style of wrestling more" or "I'd like to see this style promo" or "I'd like a new set that looks like". Although I'm sure even this will be met with "RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half".

RAW looks just fine the way it is even though it hasn't barely changed it all in a decade in a half.

[juggaloninjalee]

I would like to mix up the start of the show. Personally I don't mind the announcers giving a run down of the line up for the night with a camera shot of them. To me that would be my normal start to the show. Then sometimes cut them off with a monologue in the ring or a video backstage.

I don't mind the set at all though. It works how it is.

[Fantabulous]

Gordon Solie was a great commentator for the more serious style of wrestling or the wrestling presented in a serious and sports-like manner and not as some really bad joke or cartoon come to life. His best days were probably the late 70s to the mid 80s but as commentators go he was easily one of the very best. Bob Caudle is a really good colour guy who, like with Solie, excels with a product that is treated like a sport or at least is treated seriously where the matches are important and if something goes down it's something to be treated like it matters rather than a momentary deal that gets forgotten about five seconds later.

[dvdWarrior]

The Hiro Matsuda - Johnny Weaver incident for one, (which was a monumental event in my young wrestling psyche), and I can't even swear with 100% accuracy that he was the one making the call on that particular show.

Just looked up the Matsuda - Weaver thing on YouTube, and it was David Crockett on commentary for that. Still, if I try to think back to my earliest wrestling memories, Caudle is usually the voice I hear making the calls.

Just to clear up my earlier post.

:)

[Linsolv]

Well... I don't mind how it is.

If you really want to know what I'd like to see changed, though...

I really like the style TNA is using right now with the ramp leading directly to the ring. I believe NJPW also uses a similar style for their big show in January, but I could be mistaken. As much as it's not traditional, I feel like it looks really classy, and I absolutely love it.

I'd like to see two entrances to the ring, at least for PPVs. This is somewhat counter to my previous point, but I've seen it done.

I'd like to see the entrance archways reworked. I don't like the huge video-wall; seeing those giant pixels really bothers me for some reason, and I'd rather see just a wall. Possibly padded.

I'd like to see Lawler replaced on commentary. Cole can stay, but I would like him to take a more back-seat role and be more heelish. Maybe Lawler can stick around as a manager, if he can be the serious Lawler we saw in the feuds with Miz and Cole. Put him on a Diva, and have him basically try to be her mentor/bodyguard. But you'd need to make his character a lot less of a pervert to do something like that. It might, possibly, work with JR as lead play-by-play, Cole being a heel color man, and then Booker doing comedy.

I'd like to stop seeing John Laurinitis. He makes everyone look short.

I'd like to see less space at ringside. Not TOO much less, but trim a foot or two off each side.

[Astil]

To be honest,

I like the SNME thing they did a while back with the 'side entrance' that looked it it came in through the crowd. Makes it seem more ... fan-friendly.

Right now it looks distant.

[Tha Black Phenom]

...what?

What has changed? John Cena is still being fed title shots, CM Punk still (at least in his character's eyes) has to feel underutilized, guys like Mason Ryan are still getting an absurd amount of TV time while guys like Colt Cabana still can't crack the WWE (he was given a "try out" about a month ago and now the WWE won't take his calls), the amount of actual wrestling on Raw has managed to go down so that Vince's family and/or stooges can put the spotlight on themselves, etc.

Pretty much all the stuff Punk rebelled about before hasn't changed, except that Punk has better shirts and he's in the opening to Raw now.

edit: Oh, and now F4W is reporting that John Morrison is probably done with the WWE once his contract expires soon. Summer Punk would have had a field day with the WWE driving out a talented and popular wrestler reportedly because they were upset with the woman he happened to be dating.

The idea that there's nothing for Punk to rebel against is mind-blowing.

lol @ anyone expecting the status quo to be changed so drastically. Right, everything's supposedly back to normal. So what? Despite Punk's crusade (even speaking kayfabe wise here) I don't think he would've expected things to change considerably. Punk isn't an idiot, and at the end of the day he knows why the status quo's there for a reason. He wants change. And he's working on it. But he's not gonna turn water into wine and drop pipebombs eternally.

If you want him to fight THOSE things, you're cheering him on a losing battle and trying to mold ideas around it is possible but inherently pointless on the long-term because he's destined... to fail.

Case in point, the best idea thrown around so far is him bringing back old incarnations of title belts. Groovy. But don't worry, I noticed the "little things" you said he could do too, which isn't a bad shout.

But oh, suddenly him not being anything he used to be makes him a kiss-ass? It's one or the other, right? Punk the rebel or Punk the kiss-ass. Kay. He happens to have the same line of thinking as Triple H believe it or not, which actually fits most of his stance behind his character about making a change. Don't believe me? Review HHH's promo and tell me Punk wouldn't agree with most of what he said. It's like that Twitter post suddenly went over your heads. Punk may have wore HHH's blazer but that doesn't make him any much of a kiss-ass - that's not even withstanding the fact HHH granted him a title shot right after a PPV loss. Punk casually going on his crusade would either render him an ungrateful lunatic or his act would get old eventually. So yeah, I do mean it when I say, he has nothing to rebel against anymore.

There's another top face in the equation now so there has been a change and he's benefitted most from it. But for those who think I'm being optimistic on that aspect and want to squeeze in their childish potshots because they're trying to find their words to refute accurately, fair enough.

I think OSB, Fantabulous and Bookerman have the right idea and they're all speaking the truth. Anybody that thinks this "character" of CM Punk is the same one that cut those scathing promos and walked out on the company is in critical denial.

And anybody who expected Punk's character to stay similar to its original state to begin with is delusional.

The thing is, he doesn't have to do worked shoots every week. He doesn't have to keep reciting the huge list of the WWE's problems to remain edgy and interesting. For example, I think he should have brought back the old winged eagle belt when he returned after MitB. He could have said that any belt good enough for Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, the two greatest wrestlers ever, is good enough for him. Then when him and Cena wrestled at SS (or NoC, if they wanted a good build), they could have the match determine which belt would be used, with Punk winning. That's a simple way for Punk to remain edgy and appeal to relapsed WWE fans without hurting the promotion at all and it'd get rid of the current horrid belt design.

They could have even built on that, having Punk restore some prestige to the tag team and IC championships by bringing back the old belts. That'd also give a bit of a rub to Air Boom (and the tag team division) and Cody Rhodes.

If bringing back some old belts isn't feasible, and I'm not sure why not because I doubt there's many people with disposable income still itching to buy Cena's belt, there's other stuff that can be done. What about during that 12-man match, instead of Mason Ryan (because they don't want to bury him) The Great Khali comes out, Punk gets on the mic and tells him that while he is very tall, they need an actual wrestler, and calls out Zack Ryder. That certainly hurts Khali, he's reportedly on the way out anyway, but it also gives a rub to Ryder and furthers Punk doing things differently.

Or when one of the heels tries one of their generic heel tricks, Punk doesn't fall for it, instead kind of breaking the fourth wall and acting like it's ridiculous that anyone falls for that sort of stuff.

There's countless little things like that they could have Punk do, while occasionally letting him speak some uncomfortable truths, that would make his babyface-ness different and interesting. Instead, Punk has turned into a generic babyface.

There's countless things they could have Punk do... all coming from the average IWCer's personal wishlist. That's where I think it is wrong, and that many of you are expecting too much out of Punk's character for. I mean come on, he never touched on any of those things! There's a difference between wanting change and pandering to nostalgists by bringing back old titles to which he has no connection with whatsoever.

As for the 4th wall stuff, he does it already. Just to a lesser extent. And because he's actually smart, he's not gonna do it every single time because it's gonna get tiresome.

[OldStingberg]

There's another top face in the equation now so there has been a change and he's benefitted most from it.

Somehow, I don't think the change Punk wanted was Triple H returning to the spotlight.

But that's all I'll say about that. We're dangerously close, if we haven't already flown by this point, of just discussing this in circles.

[OldStingberg]

Well, the ratings for Raw are a classic case of good news/holycrapthat'sterrible news.

Overall, the show was up with a 3.24 rating, which is notably above the 3.0-3.1 Raw has been averaging. That was because people were very interested in seeing the fallout from the walkout. The first 30 minutes got a 3.62 rating.

That's the good news. The holycrapthat'sterrible news is that once people saw what they were doing with the walkout, a lot of viewers tuned out. All told, by the time they got to the PPV-caliber main event involving two of the last three WWE champions, Raw had lost 25% of its viewers, dropping the eighth quarter-hour all the way to a 2.77.

It'll be interesting to see what the WWE does with this. A lot of stuff kind of came to a head Monday, and the ratings (and critical reception) show that people were turned off by it. I'm not sure there's a graceful way for them to work themselves out of this one.

[BHK1978]

I'd like to see two entrances to the ring, at least for PPVs. This is somewhat counter to my previous point, but I've seen it done.

This will probably never happen for the simple fact that it would mean loss of revenue for them as they would have to remove those floor seats.

[MrOnu]

So the only way the Punk "rebel" persona would have worked for you was if he actually left the company? Not saying this to be a smartass I'm legitimately curious as to if this was your point.

CM Punk was never going to walk out of the company, but at least, they could have create the illusion of it. The illusion was never there for me, it felt just like any other storyline. Basically, I'd say that they, once again, rushed a potentiel good story. Worst for them : the short term pay off wasn't even that great! Punk came back too quickly, it didn't fit the persona, it was an too rapid evolution.

[bigtplaystew]

CM Punk was never going to walk out of the company, but at least, they could have create the illusion of it. The illusion was never there for me, it felt just like any other storyline. Basically, I'd say that they, once again, rushed a potentiel good story. Worst for them : the short term pay off wasn't even that great! Punk came back too quickly, it didn't fit the persona, it was an too rapid evolution.

I hear you. I really do. In a perfect world they would have rested Punk more and gave him a more "holy crap" moment. Years ago, they certainly would have. I feel this is a fair criticism.

But they HAD to capitalize on him while he was hot. In 2011 people forget about you and do it FAST. There is no secret as to why theres a 90 day no-compete clause on any WWE talent's contract. This is also why there will never be another "monday night wars" as that time period largely hinged on people "jumping ship" to the other company.

Still, I do agree, they could have rested Punk a little longer. I think if WWE made a big mistake, it was the way they handled the Triple H/Punk/Nash feud. It was obvious they were going for a slow build there and HHH and Punk would have gained mutual respect for each other eventually. But it was rushed because of Nash's "injury" or whatever it was preventing him from competing in that match with Punk. Although WWE has to take some of the blame here. How they interlace Nash in a feud of that magnitude without knowing he can wrestle is well beyond me. And even if his injury was a surprise last minute thing, then how do you not have a legit backup plan?

If that would have taken a few months longer, I think the Triple H / Punk feud cooling down would have seemed more natural. Instead, it comes off rushed and I think it hurt Punk's character slightly.

[Linsolv]

90 days? I'd have given him 30.

Here's my ideal: They spend a week, maybe 2, trying to pretend nothing happened. Have one of the tournament rounds per week from week 3 on. (that way, you can have the finals at PPV). Have Vince come out for all the matches to keep an eye on his title, to ensure that there's no funny business etc etc. Week 3, some time during the matches, have someone (maybe John Laurinitis I guess) come out, whisper in Vince's ear. Vince looks mad; you know how good he is at looking mad. However, he says nothing. Matches continue, but you have the commentators say something about "I wonder what Johnny Ace just told Mr McMahon?" Next week, same thing, except this time he shouts "He said WHAT?!" and walk off. Matches continue.

PPV shows up, Cena vs. Mysterio, blah blah blah. Cena wins, and then Cult of Personality hits the speakers and Punk walks out in his ring gear, walks to the ring, and you have a staredown.

It can be hard to remember things for months--although to me it was a big wait for South Park to start back up because of how they'd ended the half-season. People CAN remember, but with Vince's booking style there's no REASON to remember.

[ZMAN]

Just feels like Punk is no longer a major player and is being replaced by John L. and HHH. I get it, the guy lost a very competitive match against HHH, totally reasonable. But having the guy lose to HHH and then take HHH's side and be like buddies (like he never even did that shoot promo) is crap. Instead of Punk trying to remove HHH from power (which makes more sense based off Punks words and actions), the role got handed to John L. for w/e fcking reason.

I'm a big WWE supporter, and love the **** out of what they do, but the new direction they are going with this storyline is weak. I mean, if they want to go back to doing strong storylines with weak endings (see Nexus, Invasion) then I guess that's cool, but don't expect people to be that interested.

[sabataged]

Anyone remember the Summerslam they did back in like 98 or 99 with Austin vs Undertaker? How the Entrance way was close and had no ramp. Also it was in front of the hard camera side. I think they should try something like that.

[bigtplaystew]

Just feels like Punk is no longer a major player and is being replaced by John L. and HHH. I get it, the guy lost a very competitive match against HHH, totally reasonable. But having the guy lose to HHH and then take HHH's side and be like buddies (like he never even did that shoot promo) is crap.

Well I see your points, but I'll disagree with you respectfully in the following ways:

1) Punk's absolutely a major player. He's been involved with every top storyline since summerslam, has had a top match in every ppv since that time, and has had arguably more TV time than anyone outside of obviously triple H.

2) I dont think that because Punk sided on HHH's side ONE time on ONE issue on one ONE raw now that this establishes Punk and HHH as "buddies" or as stated before that Punk is "kissing ass". I think they established in storyline that Punk had a new found respect for triple h after the events that transpired after their match and also he established his own reasoning for not being part of the "walkout".



Now the one point you made that I agree with 100% is the fact that they can build a storyline as well as anyone but often screw up the finish. Problem with this storyline is that no matter who ends up being the person or people behind the conspiracy against HHH... the fans will be disappointed regardless. The myriad of "I called it!" reactions will be everywhere no matter who it is. John Laurenitis, Stephanie McMahon, Vince McMahon, Foley, whatever. I have a strong feeling theres going to be a huge chunk of the wrestling community that will be unimpressed no matter how this turns out.

[djthefunkchris]

Just want to acknowledge right away, that I kind of like Linsolv's take on how it should have happened. Don't know if it was possible, but I like it.

"IF" there was any truth to the talks about them desiring better ratings for their TV shows, then I would imagine "giving away" match's that could have been reserved for PPV's is a way to up the ratings. I don't really think that's what happened, but felt like throwing it up in the mix here. Kind of negates a few things, but at the same time opens up a few more.

Also, everyone "Get's" what is being said, no matter if they agree or not. No need to act like your smarter, as it has the opposite effect. Lot's of good idea's been thrown out here, and I like alot of them. IF I don't agree with other conversation piece's, or I agree with TBP (for example), doesn't mean I don't appreciate other points of view. I'm sure I'm not alone with that. I'm human though, as is anyone else... IF my thoughts are thrown to the side as if they don't matter, then the tendancy is to do the same to others. It kind of makes for sloppy conversation.

Far as what I would like changed...> I would like to see more action and less talk... Been my biggest complaint since the late 80's. I don't have a problem with the ramps and entrance music, etc. I like it, to be honest. I just hate getting in the ring, talking about this guy, this guy pops up says something back, then being told "WAIT!! This will happen three weeks from now at the next PPV!!" Hate it, hate it, hate it.

[bigtplaystew]

everyone "Get's" what is being said, no matter if they agree or not..

Well said. People always act like the people who disagree with them are inferior. This is unavoidable.



This is my own point of view of course, and I'm not associating this with what Chris said. But I feel like there's a negative contingent of wrestling fans that act like they know all the answers. They've been watching longer than me and they have more inside back story. So I'm dumber than them for liking the current WWE product.

I guess I am stupid if I'm actually enjoying what you're also watching and apparently hating, spending tons of time reading about on the net, etc....

[MrCanada]

Who's In Your Fav 5

Booker T's "Fav 5" thing is kind of annoying, because it appears as though their are 13 people on his list. However, I think it is an interesting thing to think about, about who is your "Fav 5", aka if they are on TV you need to watch, or you at least need to look up their matches/segments on youtube the day after.

That said... Mine, in no particular order besides #1.

1. CM Punk
2. Zack Ryder
3. Dolph Ziggler
4. Tyson Kidd
5. Daniel Bryan

And for the hell of it, what are your "Fav 3" Divas?

1. Natalya
2. AJ
3. Beth Phoenix


Interested to see other people's lists, as it is kind of a spotlight on people's preferences.


EDIT: Am I the only person who wants to see Kidd vs. Danielson in a 60-minute Iron Man match

[soxfan93]

1. CM Punk
2. Daniel Bryan
3. Wade Barrett
4. Dolph Ziggler
5. Zack Ryder

I couldn't care less about the divas. As for the Bryan/Kidd question, I'd rather see Punk vs. Bryan go an hour, one fall to a finish. As much as I loved the Hart vs. Michaels WrestleMania XII Iron Man Match, I've become less and less interested in them. When you know a match is going 60 minutes regardless of what happens, it kind of cheapens it, in my opinion. I'd rather see false finishes that keep the match going, making it look like it may never end. See: Any Ring of Honor main event.

[OldStingberg]

1) CM Punk
2) Dolph Ziggler
3) Kofi Kingston
4) Christian
5) John Morrison

I watched Smackdown while doing my cardio tonight. I was happy with the show. Simple feuds that make sense and a lot of solid wrestling is usually a winning formula.

[Slagaholic]

Is anyone else starting to get Russo-chills when watching Raw?

Smackdown has been a much more fun ride in recent weeks.

[20LEgend]

1) CM Punk
2) Dolph Ziggler
=) Dee Bryan
Now I'm struggling...
4) Zack Ryder
5) William Regal (honourary mention but I do look forward to him being on TV, and I like him)

[Rone Rivendale]

1. Zack Ryder
2. Christian
3. Santino Marella
4. Dolph Ziggler
5. CM Punk

and the divas
1. Beth Phoenix
2. Kelly Kelly (VERY underrated)
3. Natalya

[Nathers7]

1. Christian
2. CM Punk
3. Daniel Bryan
4. Dolph Ziggler
5. Kofi Kingston (Good on the mic, good in the ring, very underated talent imo)

Divas:
1. Beth Phoenix
2. AJ Lee
3. Natalya

[MrCanada]

I like how CM Punk and Dolph Ziggler have been on every list thus far. haha.

[20LEgend]

I hated Ziggler when I first saw him (I stopped watching wrestling for a bit including when he debuted) and also because he was an ex-SS but he has really grown on me, his promos are really good, he is not generic like most others.

[MrCanada]

I hated Ziggler when I first saw him (I stopped watching wrestling for a bit including when he debuted) and also because he was an ex-SS but he has really grown on me, his promos are really good, he is not generic like most others.

I wont lie and say I predicted he'd be good all along, but I always had a semblance of faith in him because he started in OVW (from scratch) when Lance Storm was the main trainer. Anyone with natural athletic ability that is trained to wrestle by Lance Storm, who seems to have a natural charisma (that's the part no one saw), is bound to be successful.

[Jaysin]

When Dolph introduced himself for the first time, I was like "whoa, that's catchy"...

I sometimes miss that introduction :p

Also, his debut match against Batista where he kicks Batista in his head was awesome.

[soxfan93]

When Dolph introduced himself for the first time, I was like "whoa, that's catchy"...

Same here. I was a fan of him as soon as he called himself "Dolph Ziggler". I thought it was funny, but he certainly had "the look". Then, he seemed to get better and better in the ring. Now, he's definitely one of my favorites, and I can't wait until he gets a real reign with a World title.

[BurningHamster]

I'm breaking away from the Dolph love I am afraid ... My five would be

1. CM Punk
2. Daniel Bryan
3. Alberto Del Rio
4. Beth Phoenix
5. Zach Ryder

[TakerNGN74]

1. CM Punk
2. Dolph Ziggler (I hated him when he first came in and I hated him even more once I found out he was a former spirit squad member but he has really grown on me and its hard not to like him.)
3. Alberto Del Rio
4. Kelly Kelly (Shes gorgeous and shes improved a lot in the ring)
5. Randy Orton

[dvdWarrior]

Lemme See, my Fave 5 in WWE....

1. Air Boom
2. The Awesome Truth
3. Justin Gabriel
4. Tyson Kidd
5. Yoshi Tatsu

I might have the most surprising list on here. Surprisingly, D-Bry and Punk have lost steam for me lately, while Alberto Del Rio and many others have taken a trip down the road to Mehville, (just to me).

Honorable mentions go out to Mark Henry, (I like his current push a lot, but I'm hesitant ... dare I say, downright scared... to become a fan... I keep waiting for WWE to give the belt back to Orton, and slip Henry back to happy, fan-friendly Babyfaceville, a suburb of Mehville), and Brodus Clay, who looks very interesting to me. Can't wait to see what he's gonna do on the big shows.

[eayragt]

Top 5? Harder than I thought. 5 wrestlers who I'd happiily see wrestle anyone. I got:

Punk, Bryan, Christian

... and then I got stuck. So two that I've been enjoying this year and I think will grow:

The Miz, Sheamus

You know, John Cena was damned close to getting on this list :o.

[bigtplaystew]

Cena is good, man! I just understand the frustration some fans have with the way things always go his way. But so is the life of the "top guy" in WWE.

I honestly think (and hope) that Punk will be near that level very soon. He's doing alot of things right, both inside and outside of the ring and we love to watch him work. He's been on just about everyones top 5.


Myself, I cant put a top 5 together. Mine would be much like Booker's: there'd be alot more than 5 and it would change on a frequent basis.

[milamber]

1. CM Punk
2. Sheamus
3. D. Bryan
4. Cody Rhodes
5. Christian


Potential Top Fivers: Cena (I've enjoyed his matches more this year), ADR, Henry, Ziggler, Miz, Sin Cara Azul, Zack Ryder, Justin Gabriel, Orton (so long as they keep him away from the title).

Guys I want to be in the Top 5 but they haven't wowed me (or had the push) yet: Mahal, McIntyre, Morrisson, Barrett.

[Linsolv]

1. CM Punk. He won't be in crap feuds forever.
2. Wade Barrett. Don't care that he's been crapped on by the storylines since the Nexus. Just don't care. I like his look.
3. Daniel Bryan.
4. Ziggler
5. Beth Phoenix

[crownsy]

Top 5:

1. Cm Punk
2. Christian
3. Shemus
4. Dolph Ziggler
5. Cody Rhodes

Some honorable mentions.

MArk Henry - He wouldn't be in my permanent fav five, but in honor of booker moving people in and out, I love what mark is doing right now he's verging on a temp spot.

Orton: as long as he;s chasing the title. Orton with title = boring. Orton chasing title = pretty good.

Alberto Del Rio - I love his promo work, his in ring work tend to be kinda hit or miss though.

Miz- Love Miz

R-turth - see above, love what Truth's done since his heel turn. Was probley in the top 5 when he was really involved with the title push.

[Tha Black Phenom]

CM Punk - No doubt, he's been my go-to guy for the past few years. I liked him since day one but ever since his heel turn against Jeff Hardy, I've gotten even more enticed with him.

Sheamus - Great, great talent. Nothing much to say about him, he's brought his own since he won the WWE title and you can see the hardwork he's went through to shine in the ring and on the mic.

Christian - So glad he finally got the big one, even if it was in such a manner. I envisioned him disgruntedly leaving the company again with Vince not giving him a chance. But he's a two-time world champ and that's now in the history books.

Wade Barrett - Another potential star who I hope gets his due soon.

Alberto Del Rio - I actually soured on this guy once he won the title. When he was Mr. MITB, his promos started to dwindle back into generic heelness. But lately he's been showing sings that he's getting somewhere, as champion. His promo with Bret Hart got me back into liking him, and even my best friend who I showed the clip(he lost interest in wrestling years ago) quickly became a fan of this guy while watching the Del Rio/Bret/Cena promo.

Honorable mentions... Dolph Ziggler(def #6), R-Truth, Daniel Bryan and Triple H. You could say Orton as well.. indeed, when he chases the title, he's somewhat entertaining.

[soxfan93]

Just as it was with Dolph Ziggler, it's great to see Cody Rhodes getting some love here. He's probably 5a. on my list, with Ryder. I love his promos, he's very good in the ring, and his character has more depth than anyone else's right now.

[d_w_w]

My current top five (coming from a very casual fan - I remember that Raw is on about 50% of the time and when I do remember it's on, I give it partial attention (football season)).

1. CM Punk
2. R-Truth
3. Alberto Del Rio
4. Mark Henry
5. Sheamus

[bookerman]

What I find interesting is that a majority of the guys being mentioned are not he typical larger than life, HOSS types the WWE forces. Not that I'm shocked, but it shows that fans aren't looking for two giants to clash. They are looking for personalities/looks that are unique and entertaining. Punk/Sheamus/Barrett/ADR. Lots of International flavor there than the typical Hogan/Luger/Angle even Cena white American. Having a diverse roster with interesting personas should be their goal. Wider appeal.

I'll add that I'm reading Wrestling at the Chase again and even though it's 6 years old it's amazing that WWE is still doing some of the same stuff he calls out in the book. Focusing on the champion and not the championship. Hot shots for short term business boom, but then lower attendance/rating afterwards (read: the Walkout angle). Booking for ratings and not to make money. Not focusing the promotion around 1-2 people. Keeping guys strong near the top instead of Champion to midcard free fall (Ziggler/Swagger). Teasing matches and confrontations for long term business so when people finally do meet, it's a big deal (Rock/Cena, Punk/ADR).

[Jaysin]

Uh oh, spoiler for Raw. Highlight below...

Same old sh!t

[MrCanada]

Heath Slater suspended for a wellness violation.

Most comments I've read on other sites have people assuming its steroids, but they forget that something like cocaine, or painkillers, or what not are on there too. I'm assuming it has to do with a non-steroid non-peformance enhancer.

[bigtplaystew]

Heath Slater suspended for a wellness violation.

Most comments I've read on other sites have people assuming its steroids, but they forget that something like cocaine, or painkillers, or what not are on there too. I'm assuming it has to do with a non-steroid non-peformance enhancer.

weed prolly. I forgot who it was, some old school wrestler was on Opie and Anthony and he said that most positive tests come back hot from marijuana.

[nucleardonkey]

weed prolly. I forgot who it was, some old school wrestler was on Opie and Anthony and he said that most positive tests come back hot from marijuana.

If I'm not mistaken though they don't get suspended for weed just find $2,500 or something like that. My guess would be pain killers or muscle relaxers this time around.

[OldStingberg]

If I'm not mistaken though they don't get suspended for weed just find $2,500 or something like that. My guess would be pain killers or muscle relaxers this time around.

Nope, any illegal drug counts, as well as a plethora of other stuff. Here's the list:

http://corporate.wwe.com/company/abuse_policy.jsp

[OldStingberg]

Just as it was with Dolph Ziggler, it's great to see Cody Rhodes getting some love here. He's probably 5a. on my list, with Ryder. I love his promos, he's very good in the ring, and his character has more depth than anyone else's right now.

I'm not a big fan of Rhodes right now. I think his promos are hit-and-miss, and I hate his character. I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to listen to a handsome guy complain about how disfigured he is/has been when he's wearing a clear mask that shows he is still as handsome as he ever was.

I'm a huge mark for Dolph Ziggler, though. I think his body language is top-notch, his promos are more than good enough, and his selling is maybe the best in the WWE. He's shows great heel mannerisms, and with his ability to sell, I imagine he'd make a great undersized babyface that struggles to take down the bigger heels.

[Nedew]

I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to listen to a handsome guy complain about how disfigured he is/has been when he's wearing a clear mask that shows he is still as handsome as he ever was.

I think you're missing the point a bit ;) Everybody, him included, knows he's not disfigured. He's keeping up the schtick that he is purely to keep the mask, which he frequently uses as a weapon - obviously, he wouldn't take it off if he really was (as in, in-kayfabe) disfigured, as it wouldn't be worth the risk.

Alternatively though, they could have taken it the way they (should have) went with Kane after his unmasking - his scars have long-since healed, but mentally he's convinced they're still there.

[Linsolv]

I'm not a big fan of Rhodes right now. I think his promos are hit-and-miss, and I hate his character. I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to listen to a handsome guy complain about how disfigured he is/has been when he's wearing a clear mask that shows he is still as handsome as he ever was.

I'm a huge mark for Dolph Ziggler, though. I think his body language is top-notch, his promos are more than good enough, and his selling is maybe the best in the WWE. He's shows great heel mannerisms, and with his ability to sell, I imagine he'd make a great undersized babyface that struggles to take down the bigger heels.

I don't know that I agree with Nedew, above, entirely. The problem is just that he thinks he's disfigured. He's crazy. However, it seems more like he's afraid of being disfigured again, which is why he can take the mask off when it's opportune; he doesn't need to worry about getting clobbered when Orton isn't looking, so he can use it to an advantage.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I'm not a big fan of Rhodes right now. I think his promos are hit-and-miss, and I hate his character. I just can't suspend my disbelief enough to listen to a handsome guy complain about how disfigured he is/has been when he's wearing a clear mask that shows he is still as handsome as he ever was.

I'm a huge mark for Dolph Ziggler, though. I think his body language is top-notch, his promos are more than good enough, and his selling is maybe the best in the WWE. He's shows great heel mannerisms, and with his ability to sell, I imagine he'd make a great undersized babyface that struggles to take down the bigger heels.

Well here's something I can agree on. In fact, the only reason Ziggler's not in my top 5 yet is cause he's missing that tiny little thing that can send him over the moon. Great mic skills, he just misses that little bang to his promos that can make them rewatchable, whether a catchphrase or something else. But the quip one-liners are already a good touch.

Cody.. he's good no doubt, has a lot of potential. My gripe with him is that voice of his... sounds so cartoonish sometimes. Though you could say maybe it belongs in the realm of WWE, but sometimes he even switches from that voice to normal and it just sounds.. off. Work a bit on that, work on that receipt line maybe and he'll win me over as well.

[OldStingberg]

I think you're missing the point a bit ;) Everybody, him included, knows he's not disfigured. He's keeping up the schtick that he is purely to keep the mask, which he frequently uses as a weapon - obviously, he wouldn't take it off if he really was (as in, in-kayfabe) disfigured, as it wouldn't be worth the risk.

He was never disfigured, though. We know this because he wore a clear mask.

And the idea that he's keeping up the schtick to keep the mask to use as a weapon makes no sense, either. We can all see he's not disfigured, we all know that he doesn't need the mask, what person in control is seriously letting him keep it? And why would he want it as a weapon? It's plastic.

Like a lot of stuff on Raw these days, I think Rhodes gimmick works as long as you don't think about it. If you kind of fill in the blanks yourself or re-work some of the stuff, it can make some amount of sense. But if you think about how they're actually presenting it, it quickly unravels.

[OldStingberg]

Oh, and am I late to the party in realizing how they're pumping in CM Punk chants? I've been a bit suspicious at times these past couple months, but tonight was the tipping point. I find it hard to believe fans in Mexico City spontaneously started and perfectly synchronized a loud CM Punk chant within seconds (with no one visible to the camera actually chanting), that chant dying out seconds later, and there being absolutely no hint of the Spanish pronunciations of some of those letters, which are notably different. The 'u', especially, is a pretty dead give-away.

Obviously a lot of pro wrestling is smoke and mirrors, but pumping in crowd chants, at least to me, just seems dishonest.

[crownsy]

He was never disfigured, though. We know this because he wore a clear mask.

And the idea that he's keeping up the schtick to keep the mask to use as a weapon makes no sense, either. We can all see he's not disfigured, we all know that he doesn't need the mask, what person in control is seriously letting him keep it? And why would he want it as a weapon? It's plastic.



I guess we disagree on his characters gimmick. I take his character, as was mentioned above, to be crazy as a loon. Thus, he really believes he's disfigured.

We the audience know he isn't, but he has driven himself crazy thinking he is. He's essentially playing an evil psychotic person. That accounts for his voice too, it's cartoonish because he's got the crazies.

Your looking at it as he knows but tries to fool the audience with a clear mask.

which may be valid, WWE hasent been consistent at all portraying it. Sometimes the announcers seem to be on board with playing up he's crazy and not disfigured, other weeks it's the "come on he's not disfigured and he knows it dawg!" that Booker plays up.

That gets back to the inconstant announcing. there needs to be a strong voice on commentary laying out these parts of guys characters. Cole is a good heel voice, but not a good lead announcer.

[Linsolv]

And the idea that he's keeping up the schtick to keep the mask to use as a weapon makes no sense, either. We can all see he's not disfigured, we all know that he doesn't need the mask, what person in control is seriously letting him keep it? And why would he want it as a weapon? It's plastic.

(Bolding is my emphasis; italics is original)

But so are cars.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Raw wasn't special at all, but R-Truth and Dolph may have moved up on my list. I'll say that much.

[eayragt]

Oh, and am I late to the party in realizing how they're pumping in CM Punk chants? I've been a bit suspicious at times these past couple months, but tonight was the tipping point. I find it hard to believe fans in Mexico City spontaneously started and perfectly synchronized a loud CM Punk chant within seconds (with no one visible to the camera actually chanting), that chant dying out seconds later, and there being absolutely no hint of the Spanish pronunciations of some of those letters, which are notably different. The 'u', especially, is a pretty dead give-away.

Obviously a lot of pro wrestling is smoke and mirrors, but pumping in crowd chants, at least to me, just seems dishonest.

They don't normally pump in anything on RAW as its broadcast live - of course, last night was the exception.

So consider it a one off through being in a foreign country. Unless you're watching Smackdown, where they dub in the crowd every damned week.

[milamber]

Jonny Ace is getting Vickie magnitude heat (unless that was pumped in, too). Good Brodus Clay promo.

Punk v Miz was good. I actually expected them to give Miz the win.

Ziggler is awesome on the mic. Zack Ryder's winning streak continues. Mason Ryan looks as dominant as Henry in the ring -- he just needs a manager to talk for him.

JR/Cena v Cole/ADR was better than expected.

Pretty average Raw but I did enjoy Punk, Miz-Truth, Ryan and Ziggler.

[OldStingberg]

I just caught Ziggler's segments on YouTube. His match against Mason Ryan is exactly what I imagine him to be like as a face. He would be great playing that undersized guy who gets battered around the ring before finding a way to win, much to the crowd's delight.

But he's also a great heel, and it's nice to see him finally getting a chance to talk more and develop his character beyond being Vickie's lackey.

With how much I'm liking what Ziggler is doing and hating the rut that Punk is currently stuck in, Ziggler might be #1 on my top five now. Punk's match yesterday certainly didn't help his cause. It was a five-minute match with the pace of an iron-man match. I don't know if him and the Miz were worn out from the Mexico tour or they just didn't give a damn about the match, but that was really disappointing.

[Linsolv]

Oh, and am I late to the party in realizing how they're pumping in CM Punk chants? I've been a bit suspicious at times these past couple months, but tonight was the tipping point. I find it hard to believe fans in Mexico City spontaneously started and perfectly synchronized a loud CM Punk chant within seconds (with no one visible to the camera actually chanting), that chant dying out seconds later, and there being absolutely no hint of the Spanish pronunciations of some of those letters, which are notably different. The 'u', especially, is a pretty dead give-away.

Obviously a lot of pro wrestling is smoke and mirrors, but pumping in crowd chants, at least to me, just seems dishonest.

Also, in addition to what eayragt was saying, usually the little bit of delay they DO have is spent pumping the crowd OUT. Why do you think it is that the cheering in a huge, 20,000 person stadium is no louder than it was in RoH's 2003 shows where 300 people attended? Do people care THAT MUCH LESS? No, I think it's that they edit out booing and turn down the crowd in general.

[MrCanada]

If I'm not mistaken though they don't get suspended for weed just find $2,500 or something like that. My guess would be pain killers or muscle relaxers this time around.

That was true for a time. I was talking to a former WWE wrestle about it and it had just gotten switched before he was canned. He mentioned A LOT of WWE superstars enjoy the reefer.

Also, I could see Mason Ryan growing on me. Even for a muscle freak that I usually hate. He kind of had me won over with all those "rumors" that he was a super humble guy who couldnt understand why WWE would push him over other talent and such. Apparently he's well liked backstage because he openly admits his shortcomings and tries to get help and stuff, apparently working really close with Goldust or Malenko, I cant remember who.

[Wrestling Century]

That was true for a time. I was talking to a former WWE wrestle about it and it had just gotten switched before he was canned. He mentioned A LOT of WWE superstars enjoy the reefer.

Also, I could see Mason Ryan growing on me. Even for a muscle freak that I usually hate. He kind of had me won over with all those "rumors" that he was a super humble guy who couldnt understand why WWE would push him over other talent and such. Apparently he's well liked backstage because he openly admits his shortcomings and tries to get help and stuff, apparently working really close with Goldust or Malenko, I cant remember who.

Yeah, it seems like Mason Ryan enjoys having matches from the way he reacts when he's on TV, and if those "rumors" are true then it sounds like he actually cares for the business, unlike the person that people compare him to. ;)

[cappyboy]

Yeah, it seems like Mason Ryan enjoys having matches from the way he reacts when he's on TV, and if those "rumors" are true then it sounds like he actually cares for the business, unlike the person that people compare him to. ;)

Well, one thing I know is I'm looking forward to getting my hands on him in the video game. I may not like guys like Ryan so much in the real world but give them to me on Wii or PS3 or whichever and I'll joyfully pummel the pixels opposite me into submission with them. The most annoying thing about not getting DLC on the Wii in last year's game was that I missed out on being able to play as Chris Masters again. Loved using him in the 2006 game.

[jjohns44]

It was nice to be able to watch a RAW when great promos wouldn't be interrupted with WHAT chants. I swear I was just waiting for the audience to chant 'QUE?!' every 5 seconds.

[Self]

Vince should try to kill "What" like he did the ECW chants. Create a new brand, call it "WWE WHAT" and make it terrible. Fans will soon give up when the phrase is no longer cool.

[jjohns44]

Vince should try to kill "What" like he did the ECW chants. Create a new brand, call it "WWE WHAT" and make it terrible. Fans will soon give up when the phrase is no longer cool.

hahaha yah that would be awesome. They must edit out the what chants on Smackdown when it gets taped, it's just strange that when someone does promos on Smackdown there's no WHAAAAT but the RAW live show it's the weekly return of the ducks. I actually liked Miz when he called them all a bunch of ducks haha
if they want to keep it live, utilize the 10 second delay to cut out the whats maybe?

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I like the what chants. Its usually a sign of a good promo I've thought.

[soxfan93]

Really? I always saw it as disrespectful. Booing is fine, that's to be expected, but when the crowd cares more about yelling "What?" than they do paying attention to the guy talking, it sort of crosses the line. Worst of all, when it detracts from a good promo, such as the one Ziggler delivered on Raw.

It's a stupid chant that got way too popular and desperately needs to be done away with.

[Erock]

You have not mastered the art of promos until you can work 'What?'. Listen to a Vince promo, that's why I love what.

[Linsolv]

I hate it when they shout that. Maybe I just don't understand about Stone Cold, since I didn't watch wrestling when he was a thing. But I find it frustrating and disrespectful. Can good performers make it work, sure. But they shouldn't have to.

[dvdWarrior]

I love the What? thing myself. I was a total mark for it back in the day, and I get a kick out of it when the fans do it now. Between "What?" and "IT DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" I know I irritated my share of folks.

Two best catchphrases EVER!!!!!

WHAT?!!?!?

:D

[bigtplaystew]

I'm a big fan of when McMahon handles "What??".

He just plows through his promo like nothings happening.

[OctoberRaven]

"What" was never funny. Even when Austin was doing it.

[JackKnifed72]

"What" was never funny. Even when Austin was doing it.

What?


Just kidding...still when your boss is talking to you and a few other wrestling fans, breaking out the 'what' during the morning meetings is a blast!!

Could be why I gotta get a new job every few months though :o

[BHK1978]

I am of two minds when I hear the "What" chant. Part of me finds it very funny especially when the fans use it on someone like The Great Khali or Jack Swagger. The best one I ever heard was when it was used on Hulk Hogan and he kept on adding "Cha gonna do." right after they said what.

I do also find it annoying and it sometimes distracts from promos.

The thing that really annoys me is when fans call out "2" when a wrestler kicks out of a near fall. Now that crap needs to go away.

[20LEgend]

I think it used to be used on crappy, boring people but now "What" is used by the fans just on someone they don't like (good heels). It kind of seems like this generation of fans (saying that at my age sounds stupid, but I don't really mean generation I just couldn't think of the word) are a bit dumbed down, I could be wrong but the fact that Vickie Guerrero gets the biggest boos really annoys me since it's just because of that grating voice and terrible catchphrase. I think fans now (and I don't wanna say it's because they're stupid baby 6 year olds blah, blah, blah) don't see the difference (why should they, they boo who they hate) between a good heel and someone they want to go away. I literally cringe whenever Vickie is on TV (or atleast talks) and even more the fact she is with Dolph who should be main eventing, and doesn't need a mouth piece as his promo, for my money are the best in the company right now, and he is actually funny.

[ZMAN]

I remember a few year ago Undertaker said something to the What chants and they made like a "WHA-uhhhh noooo" reaction. I usually don't mind the chant. Like someone else said, it's usually during good promos, and so some reaction is better than no reaction. How do you work with a crowd that doesn't respond to you? That's no fun. IMO, the What chants are a convenience, or a good sign, for heels that are trying to get over.

[Nathers7]

I remember a few year ago Undertaker said something to the What chants and they made like a "WHA-uhhhh noooo" reaction.

Taker said to the crowd "Why don't you say what if you like to sleep with your own sister". Lol the crowd didn't use it for the rest of the night, I remember laughing for ages when I watched that.

[Basmat01]

I like the WHAT! chants. I think it adds to the atmosphere of the whole show. I think it sounds great when 10,000+ people get a chant going.

Dunno about anyone else but when the crowd are into a Match or Promo, It helps me get into it too.

One thing I hate about TNA is that there is no atmosphere.

[jjohns44]

^ I wish crowds were MUCH more into matches. They seemed to really be involved in Punk/Cena Money in the Banks, before that match it was rare to get them involved. I like it when wrestlers get into a great match and when someone gets pinned the crowd counts with the ref and when there's a kick out it's a cheer or boo haha.
But I do think when wrestlers interact with the WHAT is funny, love it when R-Truth is like "DON'T WHAT ME!"

Don't think I'm gonna order Vengeance tonight, though I look forward to seeing what the WTF moment is going to be at this PPV as there have been the last few PPVs.

[LoNdOn]

What are people's thoughts on Daniel Bryan and his Money In The Bank title shot. The commentators have been harping on about how he hasn't really won a match for months and I noticed on Smackdown that he looked at the briefcase with disgust, almost as if he were thinking "I don't deserve this".

I hope he does cash in and win the title and if he does I could see him upsetting Mark Henry somewhere down the line. Think about it, Henry is being built as an unstoppable force; putting him against Bryan a couple of months from now and Bryan will be looked at as a no-hoper yet he fights hard and somehow pulls off the win. I would love that.

[soxfan93]

I think it's obvious that Bryan will turn heel at some point. Anyone who has watched his work in ROH knows that he is far better as a heel.

However, I don't see him winning the title at WrestleMania. Maybe he changes his mind, cashes in on someone like Orton, and loses the title at WrestleMania. That would make more sense.

[Fantabulous]

I hope he does cash in and win the title and if he does I could see him upsetting Mark Henry somewhere down the line. Think about it, Henry is being built as an instoppable force; putting him against Bryan a couple of months from now and Bryan will be looked at as a no-hoper yet he fights hard and somehow pulls off the win. I would love that.

And it wouldn't get over a lick.

[LoNdOn]

And it wouldn't get over a lick.

Says you. You don't know for sure what will happen a few months down the road, who knows. Hell, I would never have thought I would have given a damn about Zack Ryder two months ago, now I quite enjoy the guy and would like to see him win the US title.

On top of that who would have thought Mark Henry would be a good World Heavyweight champion earlier this year. Things can drastically change in a short period of time.

[bigtplaystew]

Yep. and when The Miz won his briefcase alot of people thought he couldn't rise to the level of WWE main eventer.

[Fantabulous]

They've spent almost the entire time since Daniel Bryan won the briefcase treating him as a glorified jobber. You can't just turn that around so quickly to where fans will forget all about that. We're in an era where stop-start pushes are the norm, and it will take more than a couple of months to rehab him sufficiently to where his beating of Mark Henry for the World will get more than a momentary pop before people realize that a virtual whipping boy is now the World champion. Where Mark Henry is different is that, while never always given a strong push, he was at least portrayed as a monster, and had the physical credibility to make up for the less then stellar booking. Mark Henry's strengths were always highlighted, no matter his positioning. Daniel Bryan, on the other hand, as had no such help.

[LoNdOn]

They've spent almost the entire time since Daniel Bryan won the briefcase treating him as a glorified jobber. You can't just turn that around so quickly to where fans will forget all about that. We're in an era where stop-start pushes are the norm, and it will take more than a couple of months to rehab him sufficiently to where his beating of Mark Henry for the World will get more than a momentary pop before people realize that a virtual whipping boy is now the World champion. Where Mark Henry is different is that, while never always given a strong push, he was at least portrayed as a monster, and had the physical credibility to make up for the less then stellar booking. Mark Henry's strengths were always highlighted, no matter his positioning. Daniel Bryan, on the other hand, as had no such help.

Whist I don't disagree with a great deal of what you are saying, I still believe they can turn it around in a three month period and have Bryan look like a very credible threat. I guess we will have to see how it plays out as all we can really do is base our guesses off hypotheticals. I do agree that Bryan will no doubt have to go through an attitude alteration before the re-build can begin.

[Fantabulous]

Let's have Santino show up and beat Henry. That'll work even better, considering his positioning over the years.

[soxfan93]

You have to remember that the company is marketed mostly towards kids. All it takes is a few wins and a "nice" attitude, and those kids will cheer. The adults are already cheering because he's an exceptional wrestler.

I think a couple of months is all it would take. He already earned his shot at the title, so he's already worthy of a chance. The fans will see it as a big accomplishment, and cheer him because of it.

[Fantabulous]

Better yet, the Brooklyn Brawler.

[soxfan93]

Okay, now you're just being stupid. You can't possibly be comparing Daniel Bryan winning the World title to The Brooklyn Brawler doing it.

[LoNdOn]

Okay, now you're just being stupid. You can't possibly be comparing Daniel Bryan winning the World title to The Brooklyn Brawler doing it.

You have to understand that Fantabulous is by nature, confrontational and doesn't like people disagreeing with him which gets him bent out of shape as a result. If you look back through this thread you can see it for yourself. Not un-coincidentally a major reason behind me staying out of these particular threads for the most part.

This is the main reason why I dislike forums because you can't share an opinion without people crapping all over it and exaggerating and basically acting like children who aren't getting their way. You say your piece, you see what the person says in response and you get on with it, but no, not with certain people. I thought greydog was better and 99.5% are indeed above that but unfortunately there is still that 0.5%. I would call myself an internet wrestling fan if I didn't think I would become as bitter as Fantabulous.

I tried to have a spirited debate on the subject but what is the point when this is the result.

[soxfan93]

You have to understand that Fantabulous is by nature confrontational and doesn't like people disagreeing with him which gets him bent out of shape as a result. If you look back through this thread you can see it for yourself. Not un-coincidentally a major reason behind me staying out of these particular threads for the most part.

This is the main reason why I dislike forums because you can't share an opinion without people crapping all over it and exaggerating. I thought greydog was better and 99.5% are indeed above that but unfortunately there is still that 0.5%.

I tried to have a spirited debate on the subject but what is the point when this is the result.

Ah, I understand. That's what I get for coming to the party late haha.

[LoNdOn]

Let's have Santino show up and beat Henry. That'll work even better, considering his positioning over the years.

Barring the fact that Santino has been booked as a comedy character/fluke since day one and has remained so for his entire WWE stint, wasn't he also the guy that was the last man to be eliminated in this year's royal rumble? Now I know that he was never realistically going to win the 2011 Rumble, but I think you would be lying if you said that there wasn't some small part of you that thought, however momentarily, that Santino was going to throw Alberto over the top rope.

Santino for a while at least, received arguably the biggest positive reaction from the audience on RAW. He has also been a multiple time Intercontinental champion and tag team champion. Is Santino ever going to be a world/wwe champion? No, probably not. Could he be booked over time to be put in a WWE title scene, even for a short length of time? Absolutely.

[Rone Rivendale]

Personally, I would LOVE to see Santino and Ryder as a long term tag team. Either one can make a good midcard title holder as Santino has done and Ryder is getting ready to do, but who wouldn't laugh their ass off at a pairing of the 2 funniest guys on the roster? Plus there is the added bonus that both can actually wrestle.

[Hive]

On top of that who would have thought Mark Henry would be a good World Heavyweight champion earlier this year. Things can drastically change in a short period of time.

There are people who think Mark Henry is a good World Heavyweight Champion now? :confused:

[Jaysin]

There are people who think Mark Henry is a good World Heavyweight Champion now? :confused:

Mark Henry is one of the very few things WWE has done right in a long time...

[LoNdOn]

There are people who think Mark Henry is a good World Heavyweight Champion now? :confused:

I think he is doing alright to be honest with you, but perhaps that has a part to do with the fact that I thought he would be terrible. He makes a welcome change from the norm of Orton who although I don't mind as much as I used to, is still boring with the title. I think I underestimated what Henry could be and I suppose that has aided my appreciation of his reign.

I don't want him to hold the title for a considerable length but up to this point he has been pretty good. But that's just my opinion, each to their own. :)

[LoNdOn]

Colour me surprised, but I am really enjoying the Diva's match so far. I think Eve is a lot better than people give her credit for (her dancing is poo though) but she has really stepped up tonight.

EDIT: Yeah, great match. Both women put on a great show!

[Jaded]

Colour me surprised, but I am really enjoying the Diva's match so far. I think Eve is a lot better than people give her credit for (her dancing is poo though) but she has really stepped up tonight.

EDIT: Yeah, great match. Both women put on a great show!

Hadn't seen any WWE for about 2 months; caught Smackdown and thought the build-up for the divas match was light years ahead of the stuff for nearly every other match, and really enjoyed the match itself tonight.

[bigtplaystew]

Yay! People like wrestling!

Henry's recent build was kinda cool. I am curious to see where it goes from here. Some of his feuds were awesome. The Big Show stuff doesn't really do much for me but it's certainly not anything I care enough to complain about.

Henry was badass against Orton though for awhile there. When Randy couldn't beat him. I thought both guys did some exciting stuff for their run. It was one of the less predictable outcomes WWE has had recently, as most people seemed to think Henry was holding Orton's belt for him and ultimately Randy would prevail and find away to defeat the monster heel.

Obviously... that hasn't happened... yet :-)

[OldStingberg]

What a pointless PPV. No titles changed hands and no storylines were started, furthered, or ended. I feel bad for the people that paid $50 to watch a longer episode of Smackdown.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I think it would've been even more pointless had Cena won...

Not the best PPV but the two World title matches weren't bad at all. That said, the 64K question remains: which was more mangled after last night, the ring or HHH's neck? :eek:

[TakerNGN74]

I Thought that the PPV tonight was one of the best that they have done all year, every match was good and even the divas match was enjoyable. Sure no titles changed hands but thats fine I am just glad that Cena didn't win the WWE title again because then we would have 9 different champions in about 90 days. The last few PPV's the WWE Title has changed hands but I am glad that they decided to keep it on Del Rio tonight.

[OldStingberg]

And as if the pointlessness of the PPV wasn't enough, Zack Ryder lost to a guy who ate two finishers from the tag champs in a match five minutes earlier, CM Punk got pinned for a fourth straight PPV, and Cody Rhodes lost a non-title match where his finisher couldn't put his opponent away. Why put Rhodes into a feud with Orton if they're not even going to let Rhodes pick up one win? (Other than the obvious, that it was total and complete filler.)

It's not even that the WWE is struggling to create new things that are working, it's that they seem to be actively sabotaging the few things that have fallen into their laps.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Maybe because Cody is gonna go at it long-term with Randy...

Nothing wrong about Ryder losing, him getting a PPV spot should be the headlines. lol. The superkick was well done anyway.

Punk well.. I can't ignore the backseat on him anymore, bit of a shame but he will get his due pretty quickly. This chapter is clearly to elevate Miz/Truth.

[bigtplaystew]

I didnt watch it due to homework and lack of funds but from a results standpoint it didn't seem like a bad show. Punk lost. But so did Cena. Cena's supposedly "out of the title picture" now so maybe Punk will find himself in that spot? I don't know.

Cena lost. Pretty cool idea there. I do wish they'd just let Del Rio beat him clean once. People have clean beaten Cena before it's not a crazy idea. Cena ain't losing steam going into a program with the Rock. And Del Rio could use some on-screen "legitimacy". ADR seemed like this badass that was tough as nails and brutal and now they seem to want to paint him as a "Miz-type" heel champ; meaning someone who doesn't deserve to be beating people at that championship level. I personally would prefer a tougher seeming ADR especially if the rumors are true and he goes into a long program with Punk.

Again though, allow me to stress that I didn't see the PPV and am talking about it rather blindly so maybe ADR came off more badass than the results made it seem.

[Linsolv]

Maybe because Cody is gonna go at it long-term with Randy...

Nothing wrong about Ryder losing, him getting a PPV spot should be the headlines. lol. The superkick was well done anyway.

Punk well.. I can't ignore the backseat on him anymore, bit of a shame but he will get his due pretty quickly. This chapter is clearly to elevate Miz/Truth.

Are we still playing the "wait and see" game with Orton's feuds? I forgot. Christian says hi, by the way.

[justtxyank]

Don't watch WWE but saw pics of last night's ppv. Nash is in excellent shape. It's too bad he didn't put that much effort into his physique in the late 1990s when he was still relevant. From 97-00 he had periods of fatness. It always bugged me seeing him with a gut in WCW.

[20LEgend]

Getting tired of so many screwy finishes. I'm also finding the shows more and more bland each time. I didn't even watch Christian vs. Sheamus I just couldn't be bothered sitting through it again.

[Jaysin]

Are we still playing the "wait and see" game with Orton's feuds? I forgot. Christian says hi, by the way.

Punk and Orton's feud was the same way...

[Carmichael]

How were storylines not furthered? Nash just came back and isolated Triple H, clearly setting up a feud between them. Sheamus and Orton beat men clean they've been feuding with for a while now. Miz and R Truth destroyed the main event once again.

It was a great PPV. Main event was really strong, Cena is such a good and underrated worker and that type of match has probably got ADR more over than he has been for about 2 years.

[milamber]

Zig Swag v Air Boom - Kofi and Bourne are looking like a cohesive tag team. I hope they stay together long term.

Ziggler v Ryder - Ryder booked strong. Good exposure for Ziggler getting the opening 2 matches on a PPV.

Christian v Sheamus - Solid open match. The rise of Sheamus continues.

Awesome Truth v Punk/HHH - Entertaining tag match. I knew Awesome Truth would win. I didn't see Nash returning.

Orton v Rhodes - Good match, predictable result. The loss shouldn't hurt Cody too much.

Show v Henry - Epic big man match. I can't believe they recreated the Lesnar v Show ring break! The ROH style Holy **** chant was awesome but the crowd didn't pop near as loud as as they did in 2003. Only letdown was the announcers conveniently forgot it happened before aside from a quick mention by King.

Del Rio v Cena - The decimated ring and last man standing rules added something special to the match. Good to see Cena in different clothes. Both guys stepped up and put on a thrilling match.

Average PPV until the final 2 matches when it kicked into high gear. They've been sowing seeds for Survivor Series for a few months now and continued to do so on this PPV, so I'm really looking forward to SS.

[Teh_Showtime]

you guys are forgetting Rhodes went over Orton 2 times recently.

One was CLEAN on SD and then the next Raw when Henry watched and then sat on Orton with the chair.

Selective memory is a bad thing

[OldStingberg]

How were storylines not furthered? Nash just came back and isolated Triple H, clearly setting up a feud between them. Sheamus and Orton beat men clean they've been feuding with for a while now. Miz and R Truth destroyed the main event once again.

It was a great PPV. Main event was really strong, Cena is such a good and underrated worker and that type of match has probably got more over than he has been for about 2 years.

1) Nash and Trips have been feuding for like two months now. They've already had physical confrontations and Trips fired him.

2) I doubt either Sheamus or Orton are done with Christian or Rhodes. I'd like to be wrong, but I bet we see Sheamus/Christian and Orton/Rhodes probably another 2-3 times over the next month or two.

3) Miz and Truth have already been interfering in main events. They did it at the last PPV.

That's what I mean. Nothing new happened at the PPV. It was the same stuff that's been happening. Nash interfered with Punk and/or HHH for the third time in four PPVs. Miz and Truth ambushed the main event for the second straight PPV. And with how redundant the WWE's matchmaking has been on their weekly shows, it's highly doubtful we saw any blow off matches at the PPV.

Vengeance was always going to just sort of get in the way of the build for this year's Survivor Series, but I still hoped they'd do something to justify the PPV. Collapsing the ring isn't enough.

But ultimately, I guess it probably doesn't matter. Survivor Series is what was always going to determine whether these last couple months of crap were remotely near worth it. Let's hope for something good. At the very least, I imagine Punk will get to pin someone.

[OldStingberg]

you guys are forgetting Rhodes went over Orton 2 times recently.

One was CLEAN on SD and then the next Raw when Henry watched and then sat on Orton with the chair.

Selective memory is a bad thing

This is how their matches went:

-Orton pinned Rhodes clean in a champion vs. champion match.
-Rhodes won after Mark Henry distracted the ref and Orton allowing Rhodes to use his mask as a weapon.
-Orton got DQ'd in their next match after hitting Rhodes with the mask. Orton then proceeded to destroy Rhodes.
-Orton pinned Rhodes clean in a tag match.
-Orton pinned Rhodes clean at the PPV.

So only once can you even half-consider Rhodes going over Orton. Meanwhile Orton won clean three times, even kicking out of Rhodes' finisher. Great feud for Rhodes.

[juggaloninjalee]

Being in a feud with Orton is still a rub for Rhodes. Now he hasn't won and that is ok it just means he isn't quite there yet. I like him as IC champ and don't want him to go for the Heavyweight title. Him beating Orton would leave that as the next step for him.

Sheamus is going to go on and feud with Henry very soon. I wouldn't be shocked to see Sheamus with the Heavyweight title in a couple of months.

Nash attacking HHH gives Punk and HHH a reason to lose without looking weak. So Punk may have been pinned again but it was 1 vs 2 there. I think this is a nice build for this storyline.

Miz and Truth getting involved in the main event is keeping them relevant. I like that they are interfering in these matches.

If you think the WWE is crap and you only like 1 show in every 14 shows why watch? WWE sticks mostly to a proven formula that has kept them as the #1 company in North America for 30 years (give a couple to WCW). It's not going to change drastically.

[OldStingberg]

I've actually been enjoying Smackdown and Superstars quite a bit recently. Both those shows have become TV that I'll watch while doing my cardio. And I'm liking them because they've largely been sticking to simple, proven wrestling formulas.

What has annoyed me about the WWE has been their bigger-picture, Raw-and-PPV stuff. That's the stuff that I think is failing miserably, and the stuff that prevents me (and a lot of others) from becoming really excited about the product.

Like I said, though, hopefully they turn the corner at Survivor Series.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Are we still playing the "wait and see" game with Orton's feuds? I forgot. Christian says hi, by the way.

Christian says hi, from his much more established position than ever before. Unless you rather had him be this year's Jack Swagger.

They're developing Cody's acension right now. I thoroughly believe they'll go at it again for SS. Of course, if Cody doesn't get his due, it's not like it'll bother me much.

[Blackman]

Apparently it was time to pull the whole ring collapse thing again. After all, it's been, what, 7 years now? Or did I miss a particular instance? :p

[crownsy]

There are people who think Mark Henry is a good World Heavyweight Champion now? :confused:

*Raises hand*

I've been thoroughly enjoying Mark's run.

[juggaloninjalee]

*Raises hand*

I've been thoroughly enjoying Mark's run.

I agree with this. They are using Henry in a very effective way.

[bookerman]

Being in a feud with Orton is still a rub for Rhodes.

Disagree. WINNING a feud with Orton gives Rhodes a rub. Being in matches with Main Eventers does not make them a main eventer. That's like the Royals winning 1 out of 4 against the Yankees and people saying the Royals got the rub just by playing them. Yes I know sports are different, but it's more or less the same concept.

Until recently, look at how strong they booked Henry and how many matches he won. Same for Sheamus. Winning >>>> being in the ring and losing. Infact, I would say it makes Orton look weaker that he can't beat Rhodes clean. Why not have Cody take him to the limit and then make a mistake (top rope move misses, goes back to the same move too many time, etc). Cody flips out and attacks Orton after the match. You want Rhodes to be at that level, he's got to do something that "endangers" Orton to the point of people are concerned if he can come back and beat Rhodes.