The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Tha Black Phenom]

And don't even get me started on the idea that Punk getting a comically tainted win over Cena at SummerSlam before being cashed in on by ADR with the help of Nash texting himself, and then Punk and Cena going off in different directions was somehow a proper end to that feud.

I didn't feel the ending was fine either which has more to do with their lack of continuity nod, which is often apparent. And them not hyping the fact that Punk did __. The rest though is pretty subjective and that's where we'll agree to disagree.. I just don't think there was a "golden" opportunity to do anything more outside of what they did.

[Fantabulous]

I take massive exception to this. In fact, I think it's one of the major things wrong with the WWE right now: chasing short-term payoff (a SummerSlam main event) at the expense of a properly executed long-term story. Because the WWE did that, they essentially killed the Summer of Punk. And for what? Tens of thousands of buys for SummerSlam? Was that worth it? Of course not. SummerSlam pretty much completely and immediately killed the mainstream interest Punk had managed to generate in the prior two months.

And don't even get me started on the idea that Punk getting a comically tainted win over Cena at SummerSlam before being cashed in on by ADR with the help of Nash texting himself, and then Punk and Cena going off in different directions was somehow a proper end to that feud.
Presumably, some people are much happier with short-term storylines that don't require a lot of effort to enjoy and don't tax the little grey cells.

[djthefunkchris]

I didn't feel the ending was fine either which has more to do with their lack of continuity nod, which is often apparent. And them not hyping the fact that Punk did __. The rest though is pretty subjective and that's where we'll agree to disagree.. I just don't think there was a "golden" opportunity to do anything more outside of what they did.
I don't either, but for different reason's I think. See, with people like Cena, Kane, even Mark Henry, these guys are company guys and the company knows it. With Punk, I don't think they are THAT comfortable with him. So build him up, sure, but not so far as to make him the number one, and this is where we might dissagree at.

I believe Punk had a chance to be above Cena. I don't believe they realised it at first, so they did what they could to push it (outside of the obvious setbacks unrelated to the story, but effecting it none the less) and then realised what the potential was with it and went a different route then what I think was intended at first... to an extent. I can't help feeling that they (creative) seen the potential to push Punk right over top of Cena in public popularity, and withdrew a bit from it, letting Punk kind of do his own thing (keeping him happy), which they knew would take some steam off him without him going downhill too far.

I really believe it was a bussiness decision, possibly out of fear that Punk would cash in on his popularity elsewhere if things didn't go the way he wanted them to go... not that they believed he would, but that they were not confident enough that he wouldn't. This completely outside of the storyline (which obviously was meant to make people think he would), just bussiness to make certain that the top cow would be Cena for sure.

So I agree with both ends to an extent. I do think they could have done better, however I believe they did what they felt they had to do (which of course is what people hate about them). I think it's kind of smart, me not knowing anything outside of rumor's about Punk, and having watched Cena be "The Man" for a few years now. Bassically, Cena's definately worth the investment, where Punk hasn't proved to be worth as much to them yet.

I do feel that if Punk does stay "Model" Superstar and deals with WWE responsibilities as professionally as Cena has (or even just close), then eventually they will go where they could have gone already. I think it's just a matter of time, and what Punk himself does in the next couple of years (perhaps only one). Right now, I just think they were playing it safe. I can understand that though. That's where most I think will dissagree though. They want WWE to take chances, and not worry about what consequences it might have... but to me I look at the history here, and see that WWE has been burnt alot more then anyone ever talks about, and can see why they would "Play it safe".

I truly believe that anytime they wanted to, they could put Punk in Cena's place... It's just a matter of "chance" and possibly loyalty to Cena, as he's been to them.

EDIT: Added quote.

[bigtplaystew]

Yea remember that whole thing when Nexus helped Kane beat Undertaker? What happened to that? Lol. They teased it for awhile then... nothing...

Maybe they were leading to a Barrett/Taker mania.

[TakerNGN74]

Yea remember that whole thing when Nexus helped Kane beat Undertaker? What happened to that? Lol. They teased it for awhile then... nothing...

Maybe they were leading to a Barrett/Taker mania.

I have heard that the origional plan for WM27 was to have Barrett vs. Taker at Mania which I think thats why the Nexus helped Kane beat Taker. If they wanted to they could have easily had the Undertaker come back and blame Barrett for causing him to loose his match with Kane. However at the end of the day they didn't do it because I think they weren't about to have a newer worker who has never wrestled at a WrestleMania go into his first match at the event with the Undertaker, that might have been way too much preasure for him. It might have been a huge letdown to fans as well because Taker's match has become one of the most important matches at Mania in the recent years its almost as important if not more important than the two title matches. I think that ultimately thats the reason why they decided to not go through with Barrett vs. Taker at Mania 27 and instead go with Taker vs. Triple H at Mania. Lets face it Taker vs. Triple H at Mania was awesome and I don't think Barrett vs. Taker would be a match that we would talk about for monthes/years if it had happened.

They could do it this year but I think if they did it would be a let down if people were to compare it to his match at WM 27 with Triple H. I think if Taker can do another match at Mania (I know his health has come into question) the only person he could face would be Triple H for the third time. They could do Kane for a third time but I would rather see Taker/HHH 3 than Taker/Kane 3.

[ampulator]

I believe Punk had a chance to be above Cena. I don't believe they realised it at first, so they did what they could to push it (outside of the obvious setbacks unrelated to the story, but effecting it none the less) and then realised what the potential was with it and went a different route then what I think was intended at first... to an extent. I can't help feeling that they (creative) seen the potential to push Punk right over top of Cena in public popularity, and withdrew a bit from it, letting Punk kind of do his own thing (keeping him happy), which they knew would take some steam off him without him going downhill too far.

I really believe it was a bussiness decision, possibly out of fear that Punk would cash in on his popularity elsewhere if things didn't go the way he wanted them to go... not that they believed he would, but that they were not confident enough that he wouldn't. This completely outside of the storyline (which obviously was meant to make people think he would), just bussiness to make certain that the top cow would be Cena for sure.

One word: Merchandise.

Cena currently sells Merchandise like no other. This cannot be disputed. What WWE is afraid of (correctly, but too overzealousy) that any diminishment of Cena's role would lead to the diminishing profits from the amount of Merchandise Cena sells.

But WWE has caught to the fact that, something has to give, considering WWE's declining attendance and buyrates. To be fair, although there's a lot of internal factors that the WWE correct to raise attendance and buyrates, there's a lot of factors not related to what WWE's doing that's causing a decline in them as well. And there's not much they can do about those external factors.

WWE has to strike a balance in terms of raising attendance and buyrates without hurting their merchandise sales. It's a difficult task. But they should and must do it.

[OldStingberg]

I have heard that the origional plan for WM27 was to have Barrett vs. Taker at Mania which I think thats why the Nexus helped Kane beat Taker. If they wanted to they could have easily had the Undertaker come back and blame Barrett for causing him to loose his match with Kane. However at the end of the day they didn't do it because I think they weren't about to have a newer worker who has never wrestled at a WrestleMania go into his first match at the event with the Undertaker, that might have been way too much preasure for him. It might have been a huge letdown to fans as well because Taker's match has become one of the most important matches at Mania in the recent years its almost as important if not more important than the two title matches. I think that ultimately thats the reason why they decided to not go through with Barrett vs. Taker at Mania 27 and instead go with Taker vs. Triple H at Mania. Lets face it Taker vs. Triple H at Mania was awesome and I don't think Barrett vs. Taker would be a match that we would talk about for monthes/years if it had happened.

They could do it this year but I think if they did it would be a let down if people were to compare it to his match at WM 27 with Triple H. I think if Taker can do another match at Mania (I know his health has come into question) the only person he could face would be Triple H for the third time. They could do Kane for a third time but I would rather see Taker/HHH 3 than Taker/Kane 3.

We'd certainly talk about a Taker/Barrett match at WM for years to come if Barrett won.

I really, really hope the WWE uses Taker's WM streak to put over a younger guy.

[lazorbeak]

One word: Merchandise.

Cena currently sells Merchandise like no other. This cannot be disputed. What WWE is afraid of (correctly, but too overzealousy) that any diminishment of Cena's role would lead to the diminishing profits from the amount of Merchandise Cena sells.

Actually it can and has been disputed. Punk started outselling Cena's merchandise in October.

[ampulator]

Actually it can and has been disputed. Punk started outselling Cena's merchandise in October.
Well, what to clarify, Cena's ibe if the most CONSISTENT merchandise seller over these recent years. His overall totals probably dwarf's Punk's, though if you correct, then it's possible to surpass it. However, as a Punk-fan, that makes me happy, and proves me to that the WWE only "thinks" they need to be behind Cena. They are unwilling to take any risks.

But you have to understand-this is coming from a guy that rather not see Cena anymore. I'm bored of him. Tired. But you have to give due where it's due.

[bigtplaystew]

From what I understand, Punk has the best selling t-shirt in the WWE right now. Thats according to him. I believe Cena is still the merch king if you count all the other crap. The hats, the wristbands, toys, etc. I don't know or care enough to argue anyone one way or the other.

I'm thinking for 'Taker at WM Kane is the logical choice. They bring him back and build him up with a bunch of squashes and it'll make sense.

I dont want to see a third Triple H match. I don't think many others do either.

Kane can still work and the two could theoretically blow the doors off the place if they're in good enough shape.

I'm still wondering who else is left? I'd get pumped over Cena/Taker but that is obviously not happening this year. Jericho maybe? They could have a great match. Punk could have an incredible match with him at 'mania but I'm hoping Punk's in the title picture at wrestlemania. With Rock/Cena, WWE Title holder vs Challenger, World Title holder vs challenger, and Undertaker vs. ???...

We're looking at a quadruple main event haha. That could be insane.

[ampulator]

This is an extremely remote possibility, but I heard that Austin had always been interested in working with Punk. I heard Austin thinks he has one more match left in him.

[bigtplaystew]

This is an extremely remote possibility, but I heard that Austin had always been interested in working with Punk. I heard Austin thinks he has one more match left in him.

Yea that's been tossed around. I just dont see it happening THIS year with The Rock's involvement but we'll see.

[TakerNGN74]

We'd certainly talk about a Taker/Barrett match at WM for years to come if Barrett won.

I really, really hope the WWE uses Taker's WM streak to put over a younger guy.

I really hope that they dont decide to end the streak at all, if they did I wouldn't be happy and I am sure that I wouldn't be the only one.

[Fantabulous]

Undertaker/Barrett was the plan for Wrestlemania until just after the Rumble, and then Vince got the crazy idea he could get Brock Lesnar to work against Undertaker; the Lesnar/Undertaker staredown just after Lesnar lost the UFC Heavyweight title was meant to be the first step to building that, although the angle was conceived with the idea Lesnar would win that fight. Anyway, Vince eventually realized the reality of the situation, that he wasn't getting Lesnar, so they went with Undertaker/Triple H instead.

[Basmat01]

Really how many matches does Undertaker have left in him? The guy needs a year off after a match.

I really wouldnt mind Take facing Jericho at WM. The pair have only met once in singles and they wasted that one time on Smackdown with no build up.

[OldStingberg]

I really hope that they dont decide to end the streak at all, if they did I wouldn't be happy and I am sure that I wouldn't be the only one.

I just think it'd be such a wasted opportunity to build a new, young superstar. And considering Taker owes a lot of his career to being put over by guys like Dusty Rhodes, Jimmy Snuka, The Ultimate Warrior, and Hulk Hogan, it'd be good for him to pay it forward in a big way. And I think the WWE can do it in a way that still honors Taker and what he's done. Maybe have Dolph put Taker to sleep with the sleeper Dolph uses so the announcers can really sell how Taker was unwilling to give up. Then Dolph could leave the ring, Taker could eventually get back to his feet and soak in the thunderous ovation, and maybe have some of the superstars in the back come out and applaud him.

Something like that, still giving Taker his due, but also putting over a new superstar ready to main event.

[OldStingberg]

Yea that's been tossed around. I just dont see it happening THIS year with The Rock's involvement but we'll see.

Plus, I don't think Punk/Austin makes any sense with Punk as a face. It's a great idea with Punk doing his straight edge heel stuff, but as a face their fan bases are just too similar to really make it work well.

[Derek B]

I don't wander into this thread very often, but I spy some talk of Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak and I feel the need to contribute an opinion. :)

My opinion... he should lose it when he chooses to retire and it should be his final match. Whether that's this year or next or ten years from now with him only ever having one match per year... him losing the streak is the best for the WWE and best for business. From a money point of view, once Undertaker retires they aren't going to make any money off him. His streak legacy is never going to be challenged by anyone so it's not a milestone that is going to be beaten and therefore can't be used to make money for anyone else in future either. Respect for Undertaker is all well and good, but again... there's no money to be made in that. The only way to make money off it, which is what the WWE should do, is to eventually end the streak and make money off the person who does that. The bragging rights and the kudos attached to beating the Undertaker would be a huge boost for someone else and could help elevate someone into a money making position, which is exactly what the WWE should want to do.

The specifics of that however are much harder. I don't know who would be good to lose it to and I don't know who the WWE would feel comfortable in elevating to what would have to be main event heel status. If you give it to someone who doesn't have long left in their career then it would be a waste (Mark Henry, Kane, Big Show). If you give the win to someone who is already main eventing (Orton, Cena, Miz, Punk) then you don't really gain anything because they're already big names and the rub won't help much. Which leaves guys who aren't in solid spots already and who may not be good enough to run with a win like that. It's a tough spot and after the likes of Brock Lesnar leaving them behind then it's kinda hard to see who the WWE might take the risk on. Dolph Ziggler seems to be a top candidate but as good as he may be, I don't know if he's quite good enough. But if it comes down to potentially making money vs not making money, I know what I'd go with. I'm just not sure it's going to be at the next Wrestlemania.

Incidentally, I really hope we don't get another Undertaker vs Kane wrestlemania match... the vignettes airing about the same time makes me worried that we might be gearing up for that and I've become so jaded with the Kane character. If Kane retired today, I'd be happy. Especially if he got some easy backstage job too, cos I like the guy, just not the character. :)

Though I do like the idea of Undertaker challenging John Cena to a match for Wrestlemania 29... with the right build I think that match could tear down the house. Cena winning that match, receiving the Undertaker's torch of being the force against the darkness and then some spectactular Undertaker theatrics to see him disappear forever... hell, I'd dig that. The internet probably hates me know. :)

[JTandSilentBob]

Am I the only person that wouldn't mind Undertaker vs Rey Mysterio at Wrestlemania?

[Rone Rivendale]

Ryder over Undertaker at WM28. Woo woo woo, you know it!

*runs*

[Derek B]

Am I the only person that wouldn't mind Undertaker vs Rey Mysterio at Wrestlemania?

I hope so. :p

I used to love Rey when he was in the cruiserweight division, but his step up to the heavyweight ranks made me sad. I can buy him against guys like Punk or Eddie or Edge or Angle... but even trying to consider him against Big Show or Taker or Kane or Khali or Henry... it breaks my ability to suspend disbelief. A couple of years ago I was looking forward to seeing a feud between Rey and Low Kiv(or Kaval if you prefer :p) because it would have seen both men fighting at their very best... but that didn't happen. And while Rey is entertaining, his matches with big men are so forced and contrived wheneer Rey gets in some offense that I can't watch them. Rey vs Undertaker at Wrestlemania just wouldn't be right for me and no matter how good they might be together, I'd be telling myself it's horrible. :(

Of course, I'd be interested in hearing why you'd think it was awesome. Might be you have an idea I haven't thought of and that's always good to hear. I'll just have to remember to check the thread again cos I don't spend much time in here. :)

[Astil]

I don't wander into this thread very often, but I spy some talk of Undertaker's Wrestlemania streak and I feel the need to contribute an opinion. :)

My opinion... he should lose it when he chooses to retire and it should be his final match. Whether that's this year or next or ten years from now with him only ever having one match per year... him losing the streak is the best for the WWE and best for business. From a money point of view, once Undertaker retires they aren't going to make any money off him. His streak legacy is never going to be challenged by anyone so it's not a milestone that is going to be beaten and therefore can't be used to make money for anyone else in future either. Respect for Undertaker is all well and good, but again... there's no money to be made in that. The only way to make money off it, which is what the WWE should do, is to eventually end the streak and make money off the person who does that. The bragging rights and the kudos attached to beating the Undertaker would be a huge boost for someone else and could help elevate someone into a money making position, which is exactly what the WWE should want to do.

The specifics of that however are much harder. I don't know who would be good to lose it to and I don't know who the WWE would feel comfortable in elevating to what would have to be main event heel status. If you give it to someone who doesn't have long left in their career then it would be a waste (Mark Henry, Kane, Big Show). If you give the win to someone who is already main eventing (Orton, Cena, Miz, Punk) then you don't really gain anything because they're already big names and the rub won't help much. Which leaves guys who aren't in solid spots already and who may not be good enough to run with a win like that. It's a tough spot and after the likes of Brock Lesnar leaving them behind then it's kinda hard to see who the WWE might take the risk on. Dolph Ziggler seems to be a top candidate but as good as he may be, I don't know if he's quite good enough. But if it comes down to potentially making money vs not making money, I know what I'd go with. I'm just not sure it's going to be at the next Wrestlemania.

Incidentally, I really hope we don't get another Undertaker vs Kane wrestlemania match... the vignettes airing about the same time makes me worried that we might be gearing up for that and I've become so jaded with the Kane character. If Kane retired today, I'd be happy. Especially if he got some easy backstage job too, cos I like the guy, just not the character. :)

Though I do like the idea of Undertaker challenging John Cena to a match for Wrestlemania 29... with the right build I think that match could tear down the house. Cena winning that match, receiving the Undertaker's torch of being the force against the darkness and then some spectactular Undertaker theatrics to see him disappear forever... hell, I'd dig that. The internet probably hates me know. :)

I'd take that, just replace Cena with Sheamus. Cena is firmly entrenched in the ME spot and could even maybe lose ground in a match like that. Sheamus, on the other hand could become huge witht he right push, and Sheamus as the Celtic Warrior force against evil gimmick. I'd love it.

[Fantabulous]

I don't think ending the streak would elevate a guy to main event status as much as generate an incredible backlash against him, and not in a good way before people get confused and think that means positive heat. The streak is so over that I think fans would outright reject someone breaking it. It makes sense in theory but I think if they actually do it, and have someone end the streak, it'll backfire in a big way.

[djthefunkchris]

I don't think ending the streak would elevate a guy to main event status as much as generate an incredible backlash against him, and not in a good way before people get confused and think that means positive heat. The streak is so over that I think fans would outright reject someone breaking it. It makes sense in theory but I think if they actually do it, and have someone end the streak, it'll backfire in a big way.

I've always thought the same thing... that it would hurt whomever wins more then help them.

I've come to believe that if they do it right though, with the RIGHT person (Sheamus maybe, but I feel someone like Ziggler would just get slaughtered from it, be out of the company within' months), that it could work. It has to be someone that not only can speak, but "feels" powerful. The build-up to the match, and the match itself would have to sell Taker's age vs. Youth. Taker would have to acknowledge the winner as well, a bow to say "Great Match" or something.

IF someone just has the normal "Hey Taker, look at that Wrestlemania sign over there... Me and you!" Taker: /finger slits throat, Announcers "Looks like it's on for Wrestlemania!"... That would be a bad start for it. Here is what I would like to see (Insert whomever you're favorite is).

I pick Punk: Punk has routine match's, but is interrupted afterwards by Undertaker games (Lights off, back on and Punk's been slammed). This goes on, and Punk finally gets one on Taker by coming to Smackdown. This goes back and forth till Punk is so fed up that he's begging Taker to just state what it is he wants... Taker: "You claim to be the best Wrestler. You claim to be the best in the world. Proove it to me!" Taker points at Wrestlemania sign and /slits throat. Punk looks at Taker confused a second, see's the sign, and starts shaking his head /no way. But Taker keeps taunting him, playing mind games during match's, goes on for month's and Punk finally has had it, doesn't care if he dies at Wrestlemania, just wants the games to stop, so he agree's to meet Taker at Wrestlemania.

Bassically, it has to be Taker actively going after the "New" guy, till new guy is fed up. The crowd has to be not only understanding why the new guy finally agrees, but outright wants him to agree.

This I think might work.

[sebsy]

I've always thought with Taker's streak that it shouldn't end, although I can totally see where Derek B is coming from. I'd be quite happy for it to never end, but if it was to end and it was done right, I'd be happy too.

If I had to choose one current roster member who I could think oft he best reasons to have end it, it would be CM Punk. I'd love Taker vs Punk this year either way. Punk, despite his great push to the top this year after 'that' promo, I feel could still end up being misused by WWE. Cena and Orton don't need it as they're deeply entrenched in Main Event status already, Kane, Big Show, Triple H, Henry have been around too long and don't have a long time left, Ziggler just wouldn't be believable enough to me, as good as he is and as much as he has grown on me, I'm not sure I could dig him beating Taker when HHH has failed twice, Kane has failed twice, Orton has failed, HBK has failed twice.

Punk could use it to unequivocally set in stone his main event position for the rest of his career, much like Cena and Orton.

But I think at the end of the day I'd rather Taker never loses it.

This year I'd personally rather see a match selection of

Cena vs Rock
Taker vs Orton
Punk vs Jericho

Three huge matches right there. Punk vs Jericho for the title, even face vs face, would be huge. Then you've still got a WHC match with whoever. Henry vs Sheamus? Bryan involved?

[Derek B]

I'd take that, just replace Cena with Sheamus. Cena is firmly entrenched in the ME spot and could even maybe lose ground in a match like that. Sheamus, on the other hand could become huge witht he right push, and Sheamus as the Celtic Warrior force against evil gimmick. I'd love it.

Sheamus would probably be awesome, but he's someone I can see as being heel or face whenever he wants while Cena is the permanent babyface who fights agasinst evil. In that regard, Cena would be perfect for my vision in the future. :)

For Wrestlemania 29 I'd love the build to start early, with Undertaker always watching Cena from the shadows. Every now and again the mist would roll out, the lights might turn off, lightning might strike and of course... the gong sounds. Every time Cena makes a moral choice the Undertaker would make his presence felt, confirming that what Cena does is right. Cena might put over Zack Ryder and Undertaker would somehow signal his approval. Cena might choose to physically decimate someone who deserves it and Taker would show he approves... basically, Undertaker would constantly signal that he approve of Cena as a force for good, just like Undertaker has been for most of his career (Satan period aside :p). Eventually Undertaker would make it clear that he wants Cena in a match... and Cena would accept for Wrestlemania... heels can unite against them, they can both fight for good against some kind of heel stable (put them together just for this if required) and things would become awesome. Come Wrestlemania, the build up has been huge and Cena vs Taker headlines. Cena overcomes the odds and in the post match shenanigans the fog rolls in, the lightning strikes and the gongs go off... and then Undertaker disappears forever. If necessary, you could go further over the top with the imagery and have a lightning strike set something on fire for Cena to take down... a literal torch to be passed to him. The theatrics would be what makes it, but that's the biggest part of it all.

That said... I wouldn't really want Cena to be the one who ends it either, but it's a scenario that fits the characters and spans a long period of time. That could be fun and good too. :)

...

As for this year's card, I've had my big 4 matches pencilled in for a few months now.

Cena vs Rock (obviously :p)
Punk (Rumble winner) challenging Miz for the gold
Daniel Bryan challenging Mark Henry (I'm so psyched for this it's unreal)
Orton challenging Undertaker (with Taker winning)

Based on those matches alone I'd totally buy the PPV, and given that it looks like two of those matches are already locked in, I'm gonna be watching it. I'm sure there are gonna be all kinds of fun matches on the undercard too so I'm actually looking forward to Wrestlemania. And of course, I'm looking forward to Punk winning the Rumble too. :)

[OldStingberg]

Cena vs Rock (obviously :p)
Punk (Rumble winner) challenging Miz for the gold
Daniel Bryan challenging Mark Henry (I'm so psyched for this it's unreal)
Orton challenging Undertaker (with Taker winning)

My big 4 for Mania:

Cena def. The Rock

Jericho def. Punk to win the WWE Championship. In my mind, Jericho wins the Rumble, starts going heel on everyone, and after he beats Punk for the belt Del Rio comes out and reveals that he hired Jericho and they complete their contract by Del Rio paying Jericho for the belt. That leads to a Punk/Del Rio feud, gives Jericho a reason to ride off into the sunset, and sets up another great Punk/Jericho feud for sometime down the line.

Orton def. Bryan to win the World Heavyweight Championship. Again, in my mind, Bryan turns heel by cashing in on whatever babyface takes the belt from Henry. In theory there's a few faces he could feud with until WM, but Orton is just so over that I'd pick him.

Ziggler def. Taker

In a less pie-in-the-sky scenario, I'd like to see Ziggler beat Punk for the WWE Championship at Mania. They could have Ziggler start calling his shots, re-enforcing his show-off gimmick. Talking about winning the Rumble, then doing it. Talking about beating Cena or something, then doing it. Stuff like that, including talking about taking the belt from Punk, then doing it.

There's gonna be a gazillion people watching WM because, well, it's WM and The Rock will be wrestling Cena, so in one way or another I'd really like to see the WWE give Ziggler an important role on that huge stage to catapult him into the main event permanently.

[LoNdOn]

One of the most painful openings of any show I have ever seen in my life. I don't think I like wrestling anymore........

EDIT: Just saw Road Dogg. I'm a happy bunny now.

[Astil]

Jinder Mahal vs. Sheamus = Match of the Year!

[moon_lit_tears]

Jinder Mahal vs. Sheamus = Match of the Year!

I know, right?

:p

Looking forward to Cena/Henrey too.

[ShaunGBD]

I didn't think the video's were about the Step and Shane but now I do. It's about a woman, unless its Razback and his manager.

[Astil]

Steph and Jericho?

[ShaunGBD]

Steph and Jericho?

I was thinking that too.

[GhostDogg]

Nice "Jason Voorhees" mask that Kain had.

Didnt see him attacking Cena though.... What next?

[Killagy]

2nd to comment on Big Red Machine's return: Hate the ring attire. Thought the mask was awful too, 'til he removed the first one, then I was content. But the rest of the attire, especially with the flames: Ditch it! D:

[moon_lit_tears]

2nd to comment on Big Red Machine's return: Hate the ring attire. Thought the mask was awful too, 'til he removed the first one, then I was content. But the rest of the attire, especially with the flames: Ditch it! D:

No way. I personally liked the whole thing. Just....yay. Not happy he attacked Cena.

Would also be happy if he makes an appearance at TLC, since I'll be there!!

[Rone Rivendale]

I am almost positive that was Undertaker not Kane.

[Jaysin]

I didn't think the video's were about the Step and Shane but now I do. It's about a woman, unless its Razback and his manager.

Who is Razback?

[JTandSilentBob]

No way was that Undertaker. Had no arm tattoos. And his face was obviously Glen Jacobs.

[Bull]

Who is Razback?

I think he meant Ryback, which would be Ryan Reeves, a.k.a. Skip Sheffield, in his terminator gimmick.

[Jaysin]

I think he meant Ryback, which would be Ryan Reeves, a.k.a. Skip Sheffield, in his terminator gimmick.

Reeves is a freaking beast. I love that guy and would love to see him back.

[Jaysin]

Just saw "Kane"...yeah...that's Undertaker. There's flesh tone make up on his arms. You can see it smudged on his shoulders. Also, look at the picture. That's not Kane's face, that's Undertaker's.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/VenomousPrime/takerkane.jpg

[ampulator]

Just saw "Kane"...yeah...that's Undertaker. There's flesh tone make up on his arms. You can see it smudged on his shoulders. Also, look at the picture. That's not Kane's face, that's Undertaker's.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e322/VenomousPrime/takerkane.jpg

Plus, Kane's head is more rotune, and his chin is less pronounc

[MrCanada]

but takers nose is more pointy.

The chin does seem a little more "pointy" but I think maybe its the mask thing on the bottom sucking some chin fat up. The eyes/nose strike me as more Kane then Taker. The big giveaway is the lips. Taker has a wide narrow mouth, this is short and fatter lips like Glenn Jacobs. Not to toot my own horn, but I am a bouncer and like to think I'm good at identifying faces. (checking IDs)

.I think the giveaway also is his four-corner pyro arm taunt thing. No one seems to do it quiet like Glen Jacobs, and thats how this Kane did it.

As for the hair, its just a wig. People forget Joey Mercury wrestled with a wig on for a while too when he had that face protection mask on, its not that hard when they have a mask to have a wig too, especially all wet like that.

EDIT:

And if it was Taker, they would of just had him retun with full sleeves. "Arm Makeup" will rub off way way to easy.

[dvdWarrior]

I'm not convinced. If The Undertaker were coming back to Raw, what would WWE have to gain by convincing people it's Kane? Doesn't seem to make good, logical sense to me, but then, I'm open to anything. I say it's Kane - Glen Jacobs, the one and only.

:confused:

[tjb000]

Don't forget the lips. The Undertaker has just a bit thinner lips than Glenn Jacobs whose lips are a little more full and thicker. But maybe Taker used some lip balm!

:rolleyes:

[ampulator]

but takers nose is more pointy.

The chin does seem a little more "pointy" but I think maybe its the mask thing on the bottom sucking some chin fat up. The eyes/nose strike me as more Kane then Taker. The big giveaway is the lips. Taker has a wide narrow mouth, this is short and fatter lips like Glenn Jacobs. Not to toot my own horn, but I am a bouncer and like to think I'm good at identifying faces. (checking IDs)

.I think the giveaway also is his four-corner pyro arm taunt thing. No one seems to do it quiet like Glen Jacobs, and thats how this Kane did it.

As for the hair, its just a wig. People forget Joey Mercury wrestled with a wig on for a while too when he had that face protection mask on, its not that hard when they have a mask to have a wig too, especially all wet like that.

EDIT:

And if it was Taker, they would of just had him retun with full sleeves. "Arm Makeup" will rub off way way to easy.
Actually, Kane does it way more menacing and deliberate. The handswing down looked awkward.

That being said, I wouldn't be surprised it was Glen Jacobs. But he looked a little small AND chubby. He also had an awkward gait, something Undertaker has, but he doesn't. Kane is also stiffer.

[UkWrestleFan]

It's definitely Kane.

[ampulator]

It's definitely Kane.
I hope it is. It would be another bad "undertaker/kane" storyline. As awesome it is on paper, they never turn out well.

[jbergey_2005]

He had the Jacobs crazy side smirk. Pretty sure it is him.

[xspudx]

oh god are people really doing the Undertaker conspiracy thing?

It's Kane. It's so obviously Kane.

[Killagy]

but takers nose is more pointy.

The chin does seem a little more "pointy" but I think maybe its the mask thing on the bottom sucking some chin fat up. The eyes/nose strike me as more Kane then Taker. The big giveaway is the lips. Taker has a wide narrow mouth, this is short and fatter lips like Glenn Jacobs. Not to toot my own horn, but I am a bouncer and like to think I'm good at identifying faces. (checking IDs)

.I think the giveaway also is his four-corner pyro arm taunt thing. No one seems to do it quiet like Glen Jacobs, and thats how this Kane did it.

As for the hair, its just a wig. People forget Joey Mercury wrestled with a wig on for a while too when he had that face protection mask on, its not that hard when they have a mask to have a wig too, especially all wet like that.

EDIT:

And if it was Taker, they would of just had him retun with full sleeves. "Arm Makeup" will rub off way way to easy.

Totally agree. Obviously Kane. If others can't see that, they're obviously slow in the head.

[juggaloninjalee]

Why would anyone think it is Undertaker? That is just dumb. Taker will probably return at the Royal Rumble or just after.

[Killagy]

The sad thing is, most of these guys are saying it's Taker just because of the long hair. Clearly they hadn't received the news that a couple of months back he had shaved his entire head bald.

And oh crap, the conspiracy has taken yet another turn for the worse. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine and he brought up some rather interesting info to "prove it's Taker". ((Sigh...))

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertaker-mask-chain.jpg

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertakermask2.jpeg


Current Returning Kane:
http://www.24wrestling.com/24/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/kanenewmask.jpg

I gotta admit though, quite a nice find, I totally forgot about this version of the Undertaker. What storyline involved him at the time for him to wear the mask?

[juggaloninjalee]

The sad thing is, most of these guys are saying it's Taker just because of the long hair. Clearly they hadn't received the news that a couple of months back he had shaved his entire head bald.

And oh crap, the conspiracy has taken yet another turn for the worse. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine and he brought up some rather interesting info to "prove it's Taker". ((Sigh...))

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertaker-mask-chain.jpg

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertakermask2.jpeg


Current Returning Kane:
http://www.24wrestling.com/24/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/kanenewmask.jpg

I gotta admit though, quite a nice find, I totally forgot about this version of the Undertaker. What storyline involved him at the time for him to wear the mask?

It's all in the eyes though. That is Kane without a doubt. So is this what Cena is going to be doing for the next few months? Feuding with Kane? That could be great but I hope Kane comes out of it looking stronger than Cena. We need some strong heels to compete with the Ortons, Cenas, and Punks of the WWE.

[Franchise22]

i was there live. 6 row ringside, in TV view so i got to be the moron seeing himself on TV :)

Random show thoughts:

after a brutally slow start, it was a great show live! i was sad to see they cut up the 4way match with commercials so much, it was awesome live. Crowd was insanely behind ryder. Fairly quiet for bryan which made me sad.

Kanes Pyro made me jump out of my seat. wasnt expecting that. crowd went nuts. after watching it back on TV, you can see mark henry jump a little when pyro hit.
Just before that, they showed the kids mystery vid, loud y2J chant broke out.

When cena mentioned rock was here, crowd exploded....Cenas demeanor and tone was quite heelish live.

random and LOUD we want ryder chants broke out few times. Crowd was hot with the lets go cena/cena sucks. Crowd popped big for road dogg.

biggest heat went to Cole, followed by vicki, and 3rd would go to miz/Zig.

Post show, they had the 3 way title match (punk, del rio, miz) Punk wins after a gts on Miz. he then went around the ring for pics, high fives, kisses for ladies, and autographs. Was really cool of him.

Funny note, we found where the superstars leave after the show, and got to see them load up in the cars. most waved and then drove by the crowd slowly and waived. What is funny is Ricardo and del rio left in a crap rental and ricard was driving. a little life imitating art lol. have pics i can share.

[OldStingberg]

2nd to comment on Big Red Machine's return: Hate the ring attire. Thought the mask was awful too, 'til he removed the first one, then I was content. But the rest of the attire, especially with the flames: Ditch it! D:

Yeah, I hated the attire. It looked hokey. I liked the mask, though.

[djthefunkchris]

The sad thing is, most of these guys are saying it's Taker just because of the long hair. Clearly they hadn't received the news that a couple of months back he had shaved his entire head bald.

And oh crap, the conspiracy has taken yet another turn for the worse. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine and he brought up some rather interesting info to "prove it's Taker". ((Sigh...))

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertaker-mask-chain.jpg

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertakermask2.jpeg


Current Returning Kane:
http://www.24wrestling.com/24/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/kanenewmask.jpg

I gotta admit though, quite a nice find, I totally forgot about this version of the Undertaker. What storyline involved him at the time for him to wear the mask?

I don't know how old those pics are, possibly from USWA when he wrestle'd as the Masked Punisher?

Interesting thought... I can't tell if that's Kane or not under the mask. I can't really tell who it is at all to be honest. When people first started saying something about Taker, I have to be honest, I can see a resemblence. The thing's mentioned makes me think "not" though, as it would be incredibly hard to hide all the tattoo's... and why would they have him do it anyways? He's more popular as Undertaker, if he's going to perform.... Then there is that little fact that he was refered to as "Kane" when first getting the gimmick, as if that was his name. He wasn't introduced as "Kane the Undertaker" in his debut, just Undertaker.. But on TV he was called Kane for the first few weeks. Just thought it interesting to point out (1990).

My opinion... Hard to tell. I figure if it's not Kane, it's just someone filling in til Kane can come back.... some part of a storyline they wrote six month's ago, and they need to have him in it.

Older masked version of Kane looks similar.
http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/pictures/ppv/nm02/12.jpg

[bigtplaystew]

I REALLY don't want to see Triple H versus 'Taker again.

[SHaynes23]

It's 100% Kane, no doubt. Go to the last second Raw was on the air and he does his signature evil smile, then you can really tell that it is him. Plus, for all you people saying it's Taker, where'd his tattoos go?

[juggaloninjalee]

I don't know how old those pics are, possibly from USWA when he wrestle'd as the Masked Punisher?

Interesting thought... I can't tell if that's Kane or not under the mask. I can't really tell who it is at all to be honest. When people first started saying something about Taker, I have to be honest, I can see a resemblence. The thing's mentioned makes me think "not" though, as it would be incredibly hard to hide all the tattoo's... and why would they have him do it anyways? He's more popular as Undertaker, if he's going to perform.... Then there is that little fact that he was refered to as "Kane" when first getting the gimmick, as if that was his name. He wasn't introduced as "Kane the Undertaker" in his debut, just Undertaker.. But on TV he was called Kane for the first few weeks. Just thought it interesting to point out (1990).

My opinion... Hard to tell. I figure if it's not Kane, it's just someone filling in til Kane can come back.... some part of a storyline they wrote six month's ago, and they need to have him in it.

Older masked version of Kane looks similar.
http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/pictures/ppv/nm02/12.jpg

The Undertaker that wore that mask was in 1995.

Later, The Undertaker defeated Kama in a casket match at SummerSlam.[16] Several weeks later, The Undertaker injured his orbital bone near his eye, forcing a period of absence for surgery, until his return at Survivor Series.

The Undertaker returned at the 1995 Survivor Series, wearing a Phantom of the Opera-like, grey upper mask.[16] In the main event of the 1996 Royal Rumble, The Undertaker was unmasked in a WWF Championship match against Bret Hart, when Diesel interfered in the match to cost the Undertaker the championship.[


From Wikipedia.

[Eisen-verse]

So, I'll preface this by saying that I don't have cable SO I didn't see the rest of the show BUT Kane's return was awesome. I just watched it on youtube and the new mask really gives him a demonic feel that we haven't seen in some time. That said, I would have changed the outfit. To me, he'd be more menacing in clothes that aren't 'wrestling attire'. Something torn... like he's literally crawled himself out of a grave or something. That said, it's good to see 'monster' Kane is back.

[b0shey]

If you look at the
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEauRFfJ-_k

you'll se that the face of Kane on Raw has the same shape as Kane with mask he had when he returned in 2002.

[The Two]

I wanted to get a better look at Kane's new mask, the red lighting on Raw made it hard to tell its exact colour but it looked to me like it lacked the black markings of old.

After checking WWE.com, it seems I was right.

http://www.wwe.com/f/imagecache/686x384_scale_plain/talent/bio/2011/09/bio-kane2.jpg


Oh, and it's totally Glen Jacobs.

[bigtplaystew]

ya the mask had fake hair, remember?

It's def Glen Jacobs. Why would they blow a huge Undertaker return like that? Just silly.

[BHK1978]

I just saw on a website that John Morrison has a $5,000 booking fee. I guess he will not be finding much work on the indy scene.

[Game-Face]

The sad thing is, most of these guys are saying it's Taker just because of the long hair. Clearly they hadn't received the news that a couple of months back he had shaved his entire head bald.

And oh crap, the conspiracy has taken yet another turn for the worse. I just had a conversation with a friend of mine and he brought up some rather interesting info to "prove it's Taker". ((Sigh...))

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertaker-mask-chain.jpg

http://derryx.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/undertakermask2.jpeg


Current Returning Kane:
http://www.24wrestling.com/24/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/kanenewmask.jpg

I gotta admit though, quite a nice find, I totally forgot about this version of the Undertaker. What storyline involved him at the time for him to wear the mask?

Undertaker used the mask in the wwf because Mabel( vicera) "broke" his face 1995. If i remember it right he took it of during the royal rumble' 96 title match with Bret Hart when diesel interfered.

[bigtplaystew]

From JR's blog:


On His Announcing Philosophy: "What is my announcing philosophy? Short answer is that embellishing the skills of the in ring talents comes first, why said talents are in a given bout follows, and always avoid using negative/negative analogies to describe the stars. Every performer has to have their redeeming qualities re-enforced no matter their TV persona. It's a delicate, balancing act for broadcasters. Even villains, once clearly identified as villains, have positive attributes that need underscoring. Plus, the various titles have to be made to be special because they are intended to be and that will never change. Society understands championships."


I couldn't agree with this more. Micheal Cole is not a bad commentator. In fact, I think he's versatile and has a great ability to call a match with excitement. However, in my opinion, having the lead guy be so predictable and cheesy hurts the product in the long run. We all know who Cole hates and who he likes. He's going to take some wildly unrealistic point of view on the ridiculous antics of the heels and then talk about how bad the faces are. Cole typically tears down the guys who should be your top talent and is constantly putting over the people you're supposed to hate. I feel like J.R.'s approach to building up a "tweener" makes more sense.

And Lawler... well... he cracks bad jokes.

I feel like a stronger lead commentator would help build this product. I'm not saying that can't be Cole. But it can't be him with the character he currently portrays. Plus, they got him on both shows. Is it a smart idea to have such a hate-able guy as the on-screen leader of your broadcast team?

[ThriceP86]

I feel like a stronger lead commentator would help build this product. I'm not saying that can't be Cole. But it can't be him with the character he currently portrays. Plus, they got him on both shows. Is it a smart idea to have such a hate-able guy as the on-screen leader of your broadcast team?

When Cole starts going into character I just press MUTE on the remote. *sigh*

I know, it's temporary but you do raise a good question. WWE really needs a strong commentator to rise up and take over Cole's job. However, Cole probably has a good position with the company after having a win at Mania and crap.

[lazorbeak]

Where's the part about confusing every wrestler with "Chris" in their name in his philosophy?

Seriously though Ross certainly had his favorites (STONE COLD!), but the key is he wasn't negative even when talking about heels. Calling a bad guy "reprehensible" or "heinous" is actually pretty complimentary, and he was constantly putting over how big and scary a guy like Umaga or A-Train or Kane appeared. The biggest problem with heel Cole is that he's being outright negative towards babyfaces and very often he's the only one talking. If you listen to Jesse the Body or Bobby the Brain, these guys would reluctantly talk about how the babyface had a good look and were undeniably talented but just needed to get smarter except in circumstances where they're outright negative in order to lead into a feud. Plus, they had babyface announcers disagreeing with them.

But really the difference between a great announcer like JR and a decent announcer like Cole is that JR is able to bring an element of emotional truth to his commentary- he makes you feel the way he does because he seems to believe so strongly in what he's saying. Cole's emotional connection tends to be limited to energetic excitement, which is far more shallow and less cathartic for the audience. It's why JR is still the voice everyone hears in their head when they envision a big moment- his voice reflects the emotion we want the moment to express.

[ThatChizzle]

I have hated Michael Cole ever since he got a job in WWE. He reminds me a lot of Tony Schivone...... and I always hated Schivone.

I just wish that WWE would replace Cole with either Mike Tenay or Joey Styles, but I really doubt that either will take Cole's "spot"

[ZMAN]

Undertaker used the mask in the wwf because Mabel( vicera) "broke" his face 1995. If i remember it right he took it of during the royal rumble' 96 title match with Bret Hart when diesel interfered.

Yeah, Mabel hit his fat man splash on Taker like 10 times on the face. It was one of the few awesome Mable moments.

[Johnny Fenoli]

http://youtu.be/APFy6-KUAJk

[Slagaholic]

^Craig shoulda bladed

[Johnny Fenoli]

^Craig shoulda bladed

:D POP!

[bookerman]

Doesn't Kane need to go over Cena to make the return worthwhile? If he comes back and Supercena beats him, then what's the point.

From a story perspective, it would be interesting to have a cena/adr/kane storyline where Kane is conflicted about who to destroy first, Cena or ADR, the man who took him out. Do Cena and Adr work together to stop Kane from taking them both out?

If they stick with Cena vs Kane 1 on 1, I'd like to see Kane go over and then face Henry or Punk. Not saying he needs to get the belt, but his return can be used to bridge to their WM programs.

[GhostDogg]

Spoiler Alrert!!!!omg@!!!!!!


New World Champion!!!!!



Congrats....


Daniel Bryan!!!

[tommyb]

I literally have no idea what to think about that.

[GhostDogg]

look

I am a 33 year old man, and I damn near marked out like my 9 year old son!!

So much for waiting til Wrestlemania.. but he does deserve it

[Rocland]

It makes me happy that even if its for a short while, there is now a point in history where CM Punk and Bryan Danielson are the two top guys in the WWE. If somebody told me that would happen six years ago I would have laughed.

...Maybe there is still hope....

[GhostDogg]

Well lets see ....

1. CM Punk cuts one of the most contreversial angles since Summer of Punk in ROH
2. Bryan Danielson wins the money in the bank and then becomes world champnion...
3. Zack Ryder finally makes his own character and finally gets his first Singles title (WWWYKI)...
and

4. Matt Sydal wins his first title??

Maybe 2012 is the year of the APOCALYPSE???

Or maybe is the year....OF HONOR?

Reason why I said that...

CM Punk is WWE Champion
Bryan Danielson is World Heavyweight Champion
Matt Sydal (aka Evan Bourne) is 1/2 of Tag Team Champion..


and they are all from RING of HONOR...

Just Saying

GHOST

[Tha Black Phenom]

CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, both World champs.. even today, it comes across as a surreal pill to swallow. To add on top of it all, no Cena tonight. I wonder if it was a test run to see if WWE star power/booking can be sustained without him?

Overall good PPV, can't believe there's been technically 10 matches tonight(if you count Bryan/Show).

[nucleardonkey]

Does any one else see this as the beginning of WWE taking the Ring of Honor formula and using it to better their own product much like they did in the mid-90's when they turned ECW into the Attitude Era? Perhaps this is the beginning of the Wrestling Era in WWE.

Either way I have never been so excited about an episode of Smackdown in my life! It's going to be amazing seeing Bryan Danielson walking out on a WWE program wearing one of their top titles.

[The Final Countdown]

CM Punk's Twitter:

Two Indy schmucks didn't do so bad, Eh?

http://i588.photobucket.com/albums/ss322/FCDiary/Ag_961WCQAAhzSO.jpg
Awesome. Having watched both of them extensively in ROH, this is pretty surreal.

[djthefunkchris]

Does any one else see this as the beginning of WWE taking the Ring of Honor formula and using it to better their own product much like they did in the mid-90's when they turned ECW into the Attitude Era? Perhaps this is the beginning of the Wrestling Era in WWE.

Either way I have never been so excited about an episode of Smackdown in my life! It's going to be amazing seeing Bryan Danielson walking out on a WWE program wearing one of their top titles.

Going to call it ahead of time, because it's what I would probably do... And I don't really want people to hate me for saying it, but I can't help it.

I think Daniel Bryan will lose the title before the New Year, if not Friday Night. I would do it because of all the hype that is going to for sure follow this night, and because if he doesn't have it, and goes after it, more people will be interested (no matter if they are mad or not).

Pluss, I don't think he can carry it anyways... although I am a huge fan.

EDIT: Because I'm a fan, I hope I'm wrong. Bussiness wise though, I think that's the route I would go.

[Ghoul]

*sigh* dont get me wrong, i like danielson a lot and imo he deserves one of the main titles, just not now: he is basicly a midcarder who lost most of the matches he was in the last month. there was no build up to it. i mean i actually did wonder what wwe would do in order to push him so he can become more believable of a champ and imo givin him the title is not right way.

not like this: again doing it the boring way of edge and everyone who won the money in the bank thing after him(the first few times it is still interesting and suprising, nowadays it just sucks if someone wins a title like this). i mean we got promised to see a real match at wrestlemania what a good change would that have been.

and i dread how they will represent danielson: judging from the title reigns of swagger and the first(and second!?) title reign of cm punk he will be represented as a weak champ. especially with his 2 competetors big show and mark henry. as soon as he lost the title he probally end back in midcard.

Perhaps this is the beginning of the Wrestling Era in WWE.

bwahaha, sorry but no there is no "wrestling era" beginning in the wwe, wwe is just trying out younger talent that might be usefull in a couple of years when undertaker(finally), hhh and many more wont be active anymore.

[Tha Black Phenom]

A weak champ is still a world champ. if you do like Danielson a lot, just be happy for what it is..

Yeah, there was a build up to it. No momentum to it is probably the right term. And even there, Bryan trying to cash in on Henry, and actually getting a legit World title shot(earning it cleanly) showed there was minimal build-up at the least.

And damn, you just named two examples which are even worse, where there was next to no build up involved whatsoever - Swagger was on a losing streak before winning MITB and Punk looked weak before and after his first win. So what's the problem? It's nothing we haven't seen before. A weak champ is still a world champ, so long as he gets the main storyline on SD! and PPV spots all the way through it's more than we could've asked for. Depending on whether he'll headline Mania with it or not is what matters.

[nucleardonkey]

*sigh* dont get me wrong, i like danielson a lot and imo he deserves one of the main titles, just not now: he is basicly a midcarder who lost most of the matches he was in the last month. there was no build up to it. i mean i actually did wonder what wwe would do in order to push him so he can become more believable of a champ and imo givin him the title is not right way.

and i dread how they will represent danielson: judging from the title reigns of swagger and the first(and second!?) title reign of cm punk he will be represented as a weak champ. especially with his 2 competetors big show and mark henry. as soon as he lost the title he probally end back in midcard.

Damn, I'm glad to see optimism is alive and well on these boards. You say he will probably lose and end up back in the midcard but you compare him to CM Punk? Isn't CM Punk currently the number 2 man in the company right behind Cena?

Face it....everyone in the modern era with few exceptions as had terrible first reigns as world/WWE champion and been made to look weak but very few of them are sent back to the mid card permanently. Do I see this reign lasting beyond Friday? No. Actually I see Show or Henry getting the belt back before the week is over. But I also see Bryan being in the main event scene off and on from here on with a full leap into a permanent main event slot by the end of next year and a couple more world title reigns along the way.

When I say this looks like the beginning of the Wrestling era it's obvious the crowd is pushing it in that direction. Cena's getting booed out of every building he appears in, Punk and Danielson are getting huge pops everywhere, the ratings are dropping the farther they go down the "entertainment" path and rising when they showcase more wrestling. Eventually they will have to evolve or die and it's painfully obvious the majority are slowly beginning to want wrestling over "entertainment".

[The Final Countdown]

Yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if Bryan lost the title on Smackdown. I'd be disappointed, of course; I'm a huge fan of his, and without he, Punk and Samoa Joe drawing me into ROH, I probably would have given up on wrestling years ago. I'd love to see him have an epic world title reign. But even if that doesn't happen (and I don't expect it to), I'm not going to jump off of the ledge just yet. He's already risen farther than even I, a diehard Danielson fan, ever thought he would, and the fact that they would give him the belt for even 24 hours tells me that WWE thinks highly of him.

[Ghoul]

Damn, I'm glad to see optimism is alive and well on these boards.

ah what shall i say, optimisim was never my thing.

You say he will probably lose and end up back in the midcard but you compare him to CM Punk? Isn't CM Punk currently the number 2 man in the company right behind Cena?

Face it....everyone in the modern era with few exceptions as had terrible first reigns as world/WWE champion and been made to look weak but very few of them are sent back to the mid card permanently. Do I see this reign lasting beyond Friday? No. Actually I see Show or Henry getting the belt back before the week is over. But I also see Bryan being in the main event scene off and on from here on with a full leap into a permanent main event slot by the end of next year and a couple more world title reigns along the way.

good and legit points you made here, and i hope that danielson will be the top guy along people like ziggler and punk sooner or later. my problem is just that this could be so much more, that it could be done so much better and that we as the viewers have now to watch a shitty first title reign wich could be a good first title reign something enjoyable.

When I say this looks like the beginning of the Wrestling era it's obvious the crowd is pushing it in that direction. Cena's getting booed out of every building he appears in, Punk and Danielson are getting huge pops everywhere, the ratings are dropping the farther they go down the "entertainment" path and rising when they showcase more wrestling. Eventually they will have to evolve or die and it's painfully obvious the majority are slowly beginning to want wrestling over "entertainment".

again, these are very good points and i hope you're right and hopefully that will come with better writing and booking too. and we'll see if it will happen, cause as it is right now i dont see a "wrestling era" dawning anytime soon if at all.

[moon_lit_tears]

look

I am a 33 year old man, and I damn near marked out like my 9 year old son!!

So much for waiting til Wrestlemania.. but he does deserve it

Just a few years younger and I was yelling like a teenage girl tonight. :p

CM Punk and Daniel Bryan, both World champs.. even today, it comes across as a surreal pill to swallow. To add on top of it all, no Cena tonight. I wonder if it was a test run to see if WWE star power/booking can be sustained without him?

Overall good PPV, can't believe there's been technically 10 matches tonight(if you count Bryan/Show).

Tonight was fantastic. Didn't care for the Divas match though.

The funny part was the fans were so loud you couldn't hear Vicki talk which was good.

Bryan deserves it, but I was kinda sad to see Big Show lose the belt so quick.

I must say tonight was my first live event and it's so much cooler. :p
Watching the triple threat match was...awesome. I got some fantastic pics too. :D I'll be sporting my Punk shirt tomorrow..:o

<3 punk, Cena, and Orten. :p

[TakerNGN74]

Back in 2004 myself and a bunch of my friends including my best friend (who goes by Thricep96 on this board) went to an ROH show in St. Paul Minnesota. It was at that show that CM Punk wrestled Bryan Danielson looking back at that match I never thought in my wildest dreams that CM Punk and Bryan Danielson (Daniel Bryan) would be champions. Don't get me wrong I knew that they both would be at some point in their respective careers I just didn't expect it to happen at the same time.

It made me think of Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit when they were both the WWE and World Champions because that moment was so amazing and this moment was just as good if not better (depending on your taste).

[ShadowedFlames]

Just a few years younger and I was yelling like a teenage girl tonight. :p



Tonight was fantastic. Didn't care for the Divas match though.

The funny part was the fans were so loud you couldn't hear Vicki talk which was good.

Bryan deserves it, but I was kinda sad to see Big Show lose the belt so quick.

I must say tonight was my first live event and it's so much cooler. :p
Watching the triple threat match was...awesome. I got some fantastic pics too. :D I'll be sporting my Punk shirt tomorrow..:o

<3 punk, Cena, and Orten. :p

Crowd was rather hot tonight, though not on the level of Chicago at MITB. Was a heck of a night.

[BHK1978]

I must say tonight was my first live event and it's so much cooler. :p

Watching the triple threat match was...awesome. I got some fantastic pics too. :D I'll be sporting my New York Yankees shirt tomorrow..:o

There I put what you really meant to say...:p

Back in 2004 myself and a bunch of my friends including my best friend (who goes by Thricep96 on this board) went to an ROH show in St. Paul Minnesota. It was at that show that CM Punk wrestled Bryan Danielson looking back at that match I never thought in my wildest dreams that CM Punk and Bryan Danielson (Daniel Bryan) would be champions. Don't get me wrong I knew that they both would be at some point in their respective careers I just didn't expect it to happen at the same time.

I always thought that Punk had it in him to be a World Champion in the WWE. However, I never thought that Bryan Danielson would ever be a champion in the WWE. To me I always saw him as a Bob Backlund type of wrestler, a great wrestler who was just sort of bland and did not have the "look" for the WWE.

Now do not get me wrong I love the fact that a legit wrestler has won their title but I just never saw it coming.

Also, I was watching some videos of old wrestling interviews yesterday and I saw some stuff from Freddie Blassie and The Grand Wizard. I must say those two guys were great, the WWE would be so much better if there were great managers around, to me it enhances their product.

[Self]

Happy Daniel Bryan got the belt. He's not someone I'd book as World Champion, but I like the dude and am happy for him.

[milamber]

Ziggler v Ryder - Good opener. Ryder finally gets the belt and Ziggler can move on to bigger things.

Air Boom v Epico/Primo - Wrong result for me but the tag division is looking better. Now all we need is Kings of Wrestling so there's 4 legit tag teams.

Orton v Barrett - Decent match. Orton didn't need the win. Barrett gets the rub but a win would have helped him more.

Beth v Kelly - The last 2 months I've actually been able to sit through entire Divas matches.

Nash v HHH - Slow match but satisfying to watch HHH take out Nash.

Swagger v Sheamus - Filler match. I like Sheamus but he could do with losing once in a while.

Big Show v Henry - More of a short grudge match than a title match. I knew Big Show would win and Bryan would cash-in but I half-expected him to blow it. Triple threat match at the Rumble?

Booker T v Rhodes - Booker can still go. Happy that Cody retained.

ADR v Miz v Punk - Match of the night. Pretty brutal with all three men dishing out a lot of damage. Ricardo's fall and the handcuff spots were awesome. I expected Cena to come out and rescue Punk near the end! Punk v Ziggler at the Rumble would be nice.

Packed card for TLC. Cena was not missed. Enjoyable but with only the one standout match doesn't quite make the top 3 PPVs of the year.

[Rone Rivendale]

I always thought that Punk had it in him to be a World Champion in the WWE. However, I never thought that Bryan Danielson would ever be a champion in the WWE. To me I always saw him as a Bob Backlund type of wrestler, a great wrestler who was just sort of bland and did not have the "

Didn't Backlund have a 7 year title reign? :D

[moon_lit_tears]

Milamber. I won't say it was top notch, but it was great. Ricardo getting knocked off the ladder was great. I got a great pic of it too.

I wasn't to keen on the Divas match.

The Sheamus match was decent. I'm actually upraised they added it.

Would also like to see tag teams come back more.

[alphadraighon]

I'm a bit lost (admittedly because I don't follow WWE very closely.)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but was Daniel Bryan's plan supposedly to cash in at Wrestlemania? I seem to recall he said that after winning it. Did they drop that idea, or are they working a story where he said it to make the champions think that they were safe from him sneaking up on them after a match?

[Astil]

I'm a bit lost (admittedly because I don't follow WWE very closely.)

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but was Daniel Bryan's plan supposedly to cash in at Wrestlemania? I seem to recall he said that after winning it. Did they drop that idea, or are they working a story where he said it to make the champions think that they were safe from him sneaking up on them after a match?

Big Show convinced him it was a bad idea. Then he cashed it on Show.

[Purple Cowboy]

I think they've been hinting at this recently too with Cole saying that Bryan was stupid to let the whole world know when he was going to cash in because that took the element of surprise out of it. Someone at WWE must have little faith in Bryan challenging for the title at WM as a big-time match.

[OldStingberg]

A few thoughts:

-I figured Primo and Epico were going to win the titles. So glad I was wrong. I think they should be at least partially over before they take the belts from a popular team. And frankly, I kinda doubt Primo and Epico get even partially over.

-I loved how much the US title means to Zack Ryder. Great job with his reaction and the shots of his dad.

-I was kinda surprised that Barrett took the loss, especially because...

-They didn't turn Bryan. That seems wrong. Who is he going to feud with? With Henry hurt enough to take the belt off him, Barrett coming off a high-profile loss, Christian still hurt, and Rhodes tied to the IC title, what other credible heels does Smackdown have?

There's still time to turn Bryan, or Big Show I suppose, but I think they missed their opportunity to do it well. Oh well, I'm a hell of a lot more interested in a Bryan/whoever feud than Big Show/Henry.

[GhostDogg]

Ziggler v Ryder - Like everyone else, I agree, this was a good solid opener match and I am proud of Ryder. I will honestly say that Ryder's character grew on me, but he was the classic example of making "something out of nothing". This also is a "Double Win" due to the fact that Ziggler has been ready for the Main Event picture for a while now. ***1/2

Air Boom v Epico/Primo - I was actually shocked that Air Boom retained , due to Bourne's recent suspension. The match wasnt bad and it was a pretty good filler match. Now when KOW comes or when the "E wise up and rebuild the tag team division, then thing will get intresting, at least they are exciting. ***

Orton v Barrett - Call me "Negrodamus" but I knew the outcome of this match. I mean Barrett has been going over Orton for the past few weeks, since the survivor series. You knew it was going to happen the way that it did. I am pretty sure that the momentum that Barrett gained should at least get him in the Upper Midcarder picture. **1/2

Beth v Kelly - Ok, WWE you REALLY need to listen, I am REALLY getting tired of Beth vs K2 part 3 and so on and so forth and go to a certain female promotion **coughSHIMMERcough** and get some good competent female wrestler. I mean dont get me wrong, I dont mind beautiful women, but if they cant wrestle, what the point? *.75

Nash v HHH - For both guys being old and with Nash being injury ridden in his knees, this match must have been a time warp, because I could have SWORN I was back in '96. Not to mention a good way to conclude the storyline. Well played gentlemen, well played. ***

Swagger v Sheamus - Not that I am complaining bout Sheamus vs Swagger, because I have seen this match before, I mean its good because they do have good Chemistry together (yeah i know TEW reference..shoot me), but somethings got to change with these two guys.. either turn Swagger face, or something. (Stranger things have happen)

Big Show v Henry - This wasnt a bad match, and I actually though that Henry was going to retain especially with the chair shot to the hand, where Show couldnt execute the WMD or the Showstopper Chokeslam, but what was shocking than the outcome was the after the match when Danielson (yeah I know but I am going to call him that) cashed in the MITB. Now being a wrestling fan and following his career when he was the "American Dragon" I yelled "HOLY S**T" when "the ride of the valkyries" theme played. My fiance thought something was wrong! I am happy that WWE put the strap on him, now as long as they dont screw it up..we are fine..:)

***

Booker T v Rhodes - Booker showed me that he still got it. And I have a funny feeling that there will be a rematch in the future for these two, I wouldnt be surprise if Book costs Rhodes the title so those two can have a high profile fued and prep him for the main event, then again, that just me.

***

ADR v Miz v Punk - I must say this was the match of the evening, even thought they are doing the "Stone Cold 2.0" storyline for CM Punk, I legitimately thought that Punk was going to lose especially when the handcuffs were going to be involved with Punk ala "Hell in a Cell". But this match was clearly over booked. and I love the violence involved in it! I mean the match itself put you on the edge of your seat, not to mention the crowd was red hot, especially for Punk! I gotta give respect to Ricardo for taking the INSANE Table Spot of the night, I mean he almost miss the damn thing!! Good Match over all.
****

At the end of the night I had a recollection of the wrestlemania moment where both Benoit and Eddy were both champions at the end of the night, that kinda made me feel like that, because these two guys wrestled on the Indy scene, spilled thier guts and blood in ROH, and now they are on top holding the richest prize in the game. And the funny part, John Cena was no where in sight to make this a good ppv..(Hint Hint)

Final PPV Rating: ***1/2

GHOST

"I could be WRONG, But I DOUBT IT"

[Candyman]

Face it....everyone in the modern era with few exceptions as had terrible first reigns as world/WWE champion and been made to look weak but very few of them are sent back to the mid card permanently. Do I see this reign lasting beyond Friday? No. Actually I see Show or Henry getting the belt back before the week is over. But I also see Bryan being in the main event scene off and on from here on with a full leap into a permanent main event slot by the end of next year and a couple more world title reigns along the way.

Bingo. As often as not, guys who win their first World title don't hold it very long or look good with it. Just look at the first reigns of ADR, Swagger, Christian, Sheamus, Jeff Hardy, CM Punk, Edge, Randy Orton, Chris Jericho...all were either short reigns, or they looked weak, or both. All of them turned into bonafide main eventers, many of them after going back to the midcard for awhile. (Swagger's still in the 'back to midcard' phase, but I'd be surprised if he wasn't back in the main event before too long) The WWE likes to give a test run with the title before they commit to making them main eventers - especially this time of year. When you book as far in advance as they do(they likely had the WrestleMania card finalized by now), it's a lot less risky to do it that way. You don't want to have to change things on the fly because you thought somebody was ready and it turns out they're not.

Bryan deserves it, but I was kinda sad to see Big Show lose the belt so quick.

Yeah, me too. I was there when he beat Hogan for the WCW title in his first match(between the monster truck match and the DQ-loses-the-title deal, one of the oddest/dumbest booking decisions I've ever seen) and when he beat Triple H for the WWF title. I've always thought somebody with his size, athleticism, and charisma should do much more than he's done. I was happy to see him win. I'm guessing this will lead to a Christian-esque heel turn.

It made me think of Eddie Guerrero and Chris Benoit when they were both the WWE and World Champions because that moment was so amazing and this moment was just as good if not better (depending on your taste).

I had the same thought. I was hoping DB would come out and celebrate with Punk, although obviously the storyline connection isn't there between them like Eddie. Hopefully Punk and DB will still both be alive in 4 years with neither of them having decided to murder his wife and child.

I think they've been hinting at this recently too with Cole saying that Bryan was stupid to let the whole world know when he was going to cash in because that took the element of surprise out of it. Someone at WWE must have little faith in Bryan challenging for the title at WM as a big-time match.

I'm guesing they never planned on having him cash in at WM. It was pretty smart the way it went down...he says he wants to cash in at WM, Big Show convinces him to cash it in earlier, and it ends up backfiring on Big Show.

[ShaunGBD]

WTF was that dance!?!

[GhostDogg]

It look like she has to go pee...
and she trying to hold it....

[foolinc]

And The Big Show cuts the perfect promo to make the cash-in work.

[matthew222]

Have one thing to say........ Always love. Wade Barrett matches big reason is his awesome hair lol(i know I was late lol)

[The Final Countdown]

And The Big Show cuts the perfect promo to make the cash-in work.
Yep. Daniel Bryan markout moments aside, that was my favorite part of the show. Really well done.

[Jaysin]

I'm watching TLC from last night and I already knew the results going in, but I still flipped out and got pumped when Ryder beat Dolph. Makes it seem like the US title matters again.

His dad's reaction was priceless too.

So glad I decided to watch the show.

[BHK1978]

Didn't Backlund have a 7 year title reign? :D

Yes but that was a very different promotion than today's WWE (It actually was as it was called the WWWF.). I am not sure if some of the workers from back then would be able to work in the WWE now.

[djthefunkchris]

Yes but that was a very different promotion than today's WWE (It actually was as it was called the WWWF.). I am not sure if some of the workers from back then would be able to work in the WWE now.

I think Bob could, since he is bassically just a bigger Bryan Danielson with mic skill.:cool:

I mean come on, I think someone like Nick Bockwinkle would be a dramatic "gift" to current WWE standards. Someone that has skills, can talk, and is so easy to hate...

There is a reason why these guys were on top, although alot of it was "connections", alot of it is easy to see when they were on top of their game, why they were so great at one time. It's something that hasn't really changed in Wrestling... IF the people love you, or love to hate you, you're going to eventually make it unless you mess it up somehow (or someone messes it up for you).

1978 to 1983 I believe was Bob's reign. Got it back in 1984, because "He can rule the world!!"

[Jaysin]

Almost done with Nash/HHH. It really looks like Hunter's tights are pulled up too high or something...

[BHK1978]

I think Bob could, since he is bassically just a bigger Bryan Danielson with mic skill.:cool:

I mean come on, I think someone like Nick Bockwinkle would be a dramatic "gift" to current WWE standards. Someone that has skills, can talk, and is so easy to hate...

There is a reason why these guys were on top, although alot of it was "connections", alot of it is easy to see when they were on top of their game, why they were so great at one time. It's something that hasn't really changed in Wrestling... IF the people love you, or love to hate you, you're going to eventually make it unless you mess it up somehow (or someone messes it up for you).

1978 to 1983 I believe was Bob's reign. Got it back in 1984, because "He can rule the world!!"

No doubt Nick would be great (The funny thing is I saw a video of him being interviewed from the late 50's early 60's and he was very bland in the interview.) and there are a lot of guys from back then that I think would do well. Superstar Billy Graham, George The Animal Steele and Ivan Koloff are three WWWF stars that I think would do great in the modern day. Backlund from the 70's...not so much.

Now if you were to bring him in as Crazy Bob Backlund (The gimmick he used in the 1990's and in TNA a couple of years back.) then I think he would do good.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Michael Cole's commentary has gotten 10x more entertaining now. His constant lamenting at the sight of Ryder, Bryan and Punk as champions is just downright enjoyable and priceless, especially as he's been rubbing in the fact for months that Ryder and Bryan weren't gonna get anywhere, and at many times it actually looked like it.

So many quotables during the main-event and the champions' entrances, but what stood out to me is when Punk climbed the announce table to end the show, and Cole hurls repeatedly with "why are you doing this to us?!?" :D

[djthefunkchris]

No doubt Nick would be great (The funny thing is I saw a video of him being interviewed from the late 50's early 60's and he was very bland in the interview.) and there are a lot of guys from back then that I think would do well. Superstar Billy Graham, George The Animal Steele and Ivan Koloff are three WWWF stars that I think would do great in the modern day. Backlund from the 70's...not so much.

Now if you were to bring him in as Crazy Bob Backlund (The gimmick he used in the 1990's and in TNA a couple of years back.) then I think he would do good.
Bob from the late 70's, early 80's... when he was on top. IF you go back to the 50's and 60's, the only person to me that stands out is Gorgeous Gorge, the guy Muhamad Ali immitated. You can go drudge up old youtube video's, when they sound more like announcer's then in ring wrestlers, but that's how things were done back then... Meaning, you're seeing a "Promo" in it's original form. You have to get them when they are excited, and doing their "thing". Remember, back then, they did wrestling alot like they did Boxing, with the interviews. These were done quite often, and you didn't get the personality that you would when they are wrecking a set or dancing around the ring, or getting talked to after a match (most of these were done before a match, and as boxing, in these interviews they talked like real fighters do "I've been training with "X" and working real hard, so I'm pretty confident I can win this match." There's a difference in how they do things now, compared to then. We don't get segments like that anymore, and really, it was all just part of the Kafabe back then, to make it appear more real.
Michael Cole's commentary has gotten 10x more entertaining now. His constant lamenting at the sight of Ryder, Bryan and Punk as champions is just downright enjoyable and priceless, especially as he's been rubbing in the fact for months that Ryder and Bryan weren't gonna get anywhere, and at many times it actually looked like it.

So many quotables during the main-event and the champions' entrances, but what stood out to me is when Punk climbed the announce table to end the show, and Cole hurls repeatedly with "why are you doing this to us?!?" :D

I love Cole. He brought attention to those guys better then anyone else, and in doing so put them over. If EVER there was an announcer that could put over wrestler's, he is the one. Single handedly made Daniel Bryan in my opinion, although I know that goes 100% opposite then most people's thinking.

[bigtplaystew]

I wouldn't say Cole SINGLEHANDEDLY put over Daniel Bryan. I think Bryan himself might have had something to do with it... ;-)

It's so nice to see positive feedback after a PPV. That's how you know it was a good one. TLC did alot of fan service for a change. The fans got Punk, Ryder, and Bryan all winning and no John Cena haha. Perfect in most people's eyes.

I dug Raw alot too. I'm from Philly so it was a good emotional moment there in the beginning seeing Bryan come out to the huge pop. Unfortunately I had to work last night so I couldn't attend, but it seems like the first WWE show I missed in years was a great one.

I enjoyed the Big Shows promo as well. I'm very interested to see where that goes. I hope they do something a little different and deeper there. I'm liking the possibilities. Kane suffocating Cena was a stark departure from your typical PG stuff we're used to seeing. The main event was a pretty fun match.

All in all two great shows in two nights. Things are looking good for WWE fans in the near future heading into Royal Rumble.

[milamber]

Awesome opening to Raw (and Punk said "Pro Wrestling" :)). Enjoyed Kane smacking Cena around. And Kane looks the best shape he's been in for years.

Thought they missed an opportunity though: Lauranitis should have forced Punk to defend his title against Brodus Clay. It would have been more creative than a 6-man tag match and Brodus would have gotten good heat.

The tag match was actually pretty good and Bryan got the win he needed. The future of the WWE is in good hands.

[codey]

There is no way Kane suffocating John Cena was PG at all, and I loved it. I liked how Cena got his shots in, knocked Kane to the outside and got absolutely shut down.

[juggaloninjalee]

There is no way Kane suffocating John Cena was PG at all, and I loved it. I liked how Cena got his shots in, knocked Kane to the outside and got absolutely shut down.

Yeah I agree. Kane suffocating Cena and making him bleed wasn't PG. Really like Kanes new look. The welding mask can go but the under mask is cool.

[steesh07]

I loved Raw last night, not including Ryder, I thought the opening segment reminded me of Benoit of Guerrero at WM XX. It seemed as though it was a big F*ck you to naysayers of Punk and Bryan too which is awesome.

[djthefunkchris]

I wouldn't say Cole SINGLEHANDEDLY put over Daniel Bryan. I think Bryan himself might have had something to do with it... ;-)
Of course he did. He wouldn't be in the position he is, if it was solely Cole. I don't mean to take away from Bryan as far as his skills go... but as far as putting his name out there over and over and over and over, etc... Cole did that for him. He handled things, but Cole led the way for him. When he's finally to the point the WWE are comfortable with him in (Bryan), I wonder who Cole will push next?

[djthefunkchris]

I loved Raw last night, not including Ryder, I thought the opening segment reminded me of Benoit of Guerrero at WM XX. It seemed as though it was a big F*ck you to naysayers of Punk and Bryan too which is awesome.

I don't know any naysayers of Punk and Bryan though? Something going on I haven't read or heard about?

[Fantabulous]

Cole was beyond obnoxious in the opening the main event on Raw, to a whole new level. Yeah, let's have the main guy selling the public on the PPV's act in the most obnoxious and off-putting manner possible, that will sell some tickets.

Something to remember about Backlund's reign, and something it doesn't appear certain people are aware of, is that even though his run at the top lasted until the end of 1983, there was a serious backlash against him that began a few years before that. We're not just talking about the fans of one particular heel shouting him down, we're talking about outright hatred and mockery from the fans to a degree and in a manner that you just didn't see much of in that era towards top stars, especially babyfaces. And he only got the belt back strictly to transition it from Bret to Diesel; his persona and skill had nothing to do with that. Just to impart some knowledge to the unenlightened.

[bigtplaystew]

I didn't think Kane/Cena was PG either... hence why I said "stark departure" from PG lol.

I understand what Cole does. I just personally don't like it. Having someone constantly yelling at you that everything you sucks wears on me after awhile.

[djthefunkchris]

Cole was beyond obnoxious in the opening the main event on Raw, to a whole new level. Yeah, let's have the main guy selling the public on the PPV's act in the most obnoxious and off-putting manner possible, that will sell some tickets.

Something to remember about Backlund's reign, and something it doesn't appear certain people are aware of, is that even though his run at the top lasted until the end of 1983, there was a serious backlash against him that began a few years before that. We're not just talking about the fans of one particular heel shouting him down, we're talking about outright hatred and mockery from the fans to a degree and in a manner that you just didn't see much of in that era towards top stars, especially babyfaces. And he only got the belt back strictly to transition it from Bret to Diesel; his persona and skill had nothing to do with that. Just to impart some knowledge to the unenlightened.

Everyone was tired of him, and he wasn't the only one that people were tired of.... historically, there were quite a few "true" wrestler's, that people were tired of, AWA was just as guilty, if not moreso... and the NWA had it's moments as well.

[OldStingberg]

Of course he did. He wouldn't be in the position he is, if it was solely Cole. I don't mean to take away from Bryan as far as his skills go... but as far as putting his name out there over and over and over and over, etc... Cole did that for him. He handled things, but Cole led the way for him. When he's finally to the point the WWE are comfortable with him in (Bryan), I wonder who Cole will push next?

If you think Cole constantly harping on Bryan's very real weaknesses while Bryan never gets a chance to do a damn thing about it is Cole putting over Bryan, I don't know what to say.

I think Bryan would be in a much, much better position today if the WWE had an announcer capable of putting over his strengths. Well, they do have an announcer capable of that, but they've decided they'd rather repeatedly humiliate that announcer. C'est la vie.

[BHK1978]

Just to impart some knowledge to the unenlightened.

What would we ever do if you stopped condescending to us in post after post…um…I mean imparting your knowledge to us the unenlightened in post after post?:rolleyes: Seriously man get over yourself, you are posting about a fake sport on the internet, this is hardly the highest level of intellectual talk there is.

I understand what Cole does. I just personally don't like it. Having someone constantly yelling at you that everything you sucks wears on me after awhile.

If you think Cole constantly harping on Bryan's very real weaknesses while Bryan never gets a chance to do a damn thing about it is Cole putting over Bryan, I don't know what to say.

I think Bryan would be in a much, much better position today if the WWE had an announcer capable of putting over his strengths. Well, they do have an announcer capable of that, but they've decided they'd rather repeatedly humiliate that announcer. C'est la vie.

I put these two together because I agree with what the two of you said. As the lead play-by-play guy, Cole should not have the character he has. It works much better if the color commentator fills that role.

[djthefunkchris]

If you think Cole constantly harping on Bryan's very real weaknesses while Bryan never gets a chance to do a damn thing about it is Cole putting over Bryan, I don't know what to say.

I think Bryan would be in a much, much better position today if the WWE had an announcer capable of putting over his strengths. Well, they do have an announcer capable of that, but they've decided they'd rather repeatedly humiliate that announcer. C'est la vie.

The other guys talk about how he submissioned a submissioner, etc... How he makes people tap out, and such.

Cole to me (and I know that most don't agree, but I have to stick to my own reactions to it), talking about his weakness' over and over, and trying to find anything possible to make Bryan look bad, makes me WANT Bryaon to proove him wrong. It makes me WANT Bryan to do everything Cole say's he cannot do. It makes me WANT Bryan to succeed despite Cole. It makes me WANT Bryan to put away opponants like Big Show and Mark Henry, just to rub it in Cole's face..... that's what it makes me want to happen... and that's what makes me cheer for Bryan when it does happen.

I understand the opposite positioning here, but I sincerely doubt the position I represent is given a fair shake... I honestly don't even think some people will even try to see it from this standpoint (outright refuse really).

I wouldn't be me if I didn't say what I think, even if it's NOT the popular way to think. I honestly don't think Bryan could have been where he is without Cole. Don't get me wrong though, I appreciate his obvious skills, and I feel he deserves it, Cole or no Cole. I just think Cole helped get him there alot faster.

Let me put it a different way... The Miz could have done what Cole did, or some other Wrestler. They could have been the thorn in Bryan's side all along, and the ending be the same... SO, I'm not saying ONLY Cole could have done it. I'm just saying, he was definately the one in this example of "making" a star.

[djthefunkchris]

I put these two together because I agree with what the two of you said. As the lead play-by-play guy, Cole should not have the character he has. It works much better if the color commentator fills that role.

I'm going to pick on you for a minute, only because I know you will take it as light hearted as I mean it.

IF you re-read what you posted, and you think about it... It looks like you're against change. "Cole should not have the character he has" because he's the play by play guy.

It's been a good while since we seen a Heel Announcer in WWE (I mean a REAL Heel), no matter if they are Colour or Play by Play. I think the problem might have to be what we are used to perhaps, moreso then a problem with the person doing it. I mean, most commentator teams have a guy that "likes" some of the bad guys, but they only do up to a point... Meaning if the bad guy does something really REALLY bad, they hurry up and wash their hands of it. This guy Cole though, he doesn't care what MIZ does, or how good Bryan becomes, because Miz is Awesome and Bryan is an Internet Geek (Cole calling someone a geek is fun enough for me), no matter what... At least to Cole. IF Miz does the same exact things Bryan does, Miz is going to be looked at as GREAT, while Bryan is going to be looked at as "Taking advantage" or a "Fluke".

I loved the "Why are you doing this to us!" myself. I can't believe others aren't loving this.

[JackKnifed72]

As the lead play-by-play guy, Cole should not have the character he has. It works much better if the color commentator fills that role.


+1

I have to say I strongly agree with this statement...

Monsoon/Heenan...McMahon/Ventura...Ross/Lawler...

The dynamic works better with the "straight man" as the play by play as he does most of the talking...the heel as the colour...

Watching Cole on RAW comes off like watching a heel promo...for two hours...

It get's old...

Fast...

Just sayin'

[BHK1978]

I'm going to pick on you for a minute, only because I know you will take it as light hearted as I mean it.

IF you re-read what you posted, and you think about it... It looks like you're against change. "Cole should not have the character he has" because he's the play by play guy.

It's been a good while since we seen a Heel Announcer in WWE (I mean a REAL Heel), no matter if they are Colour or Play by Play. I think the problem might have to be what we are used to perhaps, moreso then a problem with the person doing it. I mean, most commentator teams have a guy that "likes" some of the bad guys, but they only do up to a point... Meaning if the bad guy does something really REALLY bad, they hurry up and wash their hands of it. This guy Cole though, he doesn't care what MIZ does, or how good Bryan becomes, because Miz is Awesome and Bryan is an Internet Geek (Cole calling someone a geek is fun enough for me), no matter what... At least to Cole. IF Miz does the same exact things Bryan does, Miz is going to be looked at as GREAT, while Bryan is going to be looked at as "Taking advantage" or a "Fluke".

I see what you are saying, they are trying to do something new and we should give it a shot. However, as you said, for me it is a going against something I am used to and has nothing to do with Cole himself. I have nothing against him; I just feel the character works better as a color commentator. Side note the only commentator or play-by-play guy that I ever truly disliked was Mongo, man was he horrible.

I would not mind in the least bit if they brought Jim Ross back as the lead announcer/play-by-play guy and put Cole as a color commentator. The play-by-play guy has always been a just the facts type of person. While the commentator is supposed to be zany, sometimes annoying, and opinionated.

Look at the original booth for Monday Night Football you had Keith Jackson the straight-laced play-by-play guy, Dandy Don as the zany ex-jock commentator, and Howard Cosell as the annoying, opinionated commentator. In wrestling, you had Gorilla Monsoon play the straight man to Bobby Heenan.

Why?

Because it works, the play-by-play guy (I say guy but it could be a woman as well, I am not trying to be sexist here.) is not supposed to act that way. Maybe it is me being resistant to change, but I just do not like the dynamic.

[moon_lit_tears]

+1

I have to say I strongly agree with this statement...

Monsoon/Heenan...McMahon/Ventura...Ross/Lawler...

The dynamic works better with the "straight man" as the play by play as he does most of the talking...the heel as the colour...

Watching Cole on RAW comes off like watching a heel promo...for two hours...

It get's old...

Fast...

Just sayin'


I get what they are doing with Cole, but it comes off all wrong. They need a heel commentator who can also show some respect to the good guys. Cole just comes off like a straight up douche and myself and many others are turned off by it.

[Fantabulous]

If you think Cole constantly harping on Bryan's very real weaknesses while Bryan never gets a chance to do a damn thing about it is Cole putting over Bryan, I don't know what to say.

I do, but let's not go down that road again.

What would we ever do if you stopped condescending to us in post after post…um…I mean imparting your knowledge to us the unenlightened in post after post?:rolleyes: Seriously man get over yourself, you are posting about a fake sport on the internet, this is hardly the highest level of intellectual talk there is
Wah.

[Basmat01]

If Cole leaves the announce table who is going to replace him? Josh Matthews? Scott Stanford? JR wont ever return full-time and Todd Grisham is gone

[Jaysin]

If Cole leaves the announce table who is going to replace him? Josh Matthews? Scott Stanford? JR wont ever return full-time and Todd Grisham is gone

Honestly, I would love the announce team to be either one of them and Regal or Matt Striker. Both of which are far better color men then King ever was.

[Self]

I'm watching RAW for the first time in months and I can't stand the announcing. I find them intrusive. I'm enjoying this opening segment, with Punk doing something different, and then I hear Cole & Lawler in my ear and I find it annoying. Not specifically what they're saying. More their presence. Maybe it's all the indy wrestling I watch nowadays, where they announce bell-to-bell and nothing more. I wish they'd just let things be. Shut up and let the opening segments speak for themselves.

I don't like Cole, but whether it's "Bad Announcer" heat or because he's effectively producing an negative emotional response for me, I can't really tell yet. I do however HATE heel commentators with a fiery passion. I find them to be such a 90's wrestling cliche. Done to death. Counter-productive when done poorly. Even when done well, it's tired. Sick of it.

[djthefunkchris]

IF there is one complaint I here over and over about wrestling, it's the "Too much talk, not enough action" debate. I agree with Self in that respect. I too find that too much talking is done in WWE (and sometimes even more in TNA), but.... I have always felt that way about WWE... even when they were the WWWF, but especially since Vince took over.

I would be like Self and watch indie wrestling, if I could get past the feeling of watching kids "play wrestling" when I watch it. Outside of that feeling, I do prefer the more action less talking.

[bigtplaystew]

I actually think Cole's extremely talented. I respect him as a wrestling announcer. I despise his character. I know he's a heel and you're supposed to. So in that regard, he's effective.

But I personally am tired of him. I wish he would tone it down a bit more. He comes off as over-the-top and corny to me most times.

[OldStingberg]

I actually think Cole's extremely talented. I respect him as a wrestling announcer. I despise his character. I know he's a heel and you're supposed to. So in that regard, he's effective.

I've heard this before and it drives me nuts. If Cole is so despised that people are muting their TVs or changing the channel, that's not being effective, at least not effective in the sense of "helping people enjoy their entertainment experience" which, presumably (though it's hard to tell at times), is the WWE's main goal.

Cole's character would work in very small doses, like Vickie Guerrero. It does not work at all when viewers are exposed to it for the better part of two hours twice a week. That sort of massive over-exposure has killed any chance Cole's character had of building effective heat.

[Astil]

Daniel Bryan would not be World Heavyweight champ if it wasn't for Cole.

[Slim Jim]

I loved Matt Striker's commentary at the Royal Rumble, the fact that he seems to actually enjoy the show is so much more appealing than King's hemipygic delivery.

[OldStingberg]

Daniel Bryan would not be World Heavyweight champ if it wasn't for Cole.

Daniel Bryan would not be World Heavyweight champ if it wasn't for the vocal, passionate fan base he built up over years of high-quality work on the independent wrestling scene. And just so it's noted, I'm not really a Daniel Bryan fan, so I'm not saying that to try and indirectly credit myself for his title.

Cole has been harping on Bryan for a year, and Bryan still doesn't have many more fans than he originally had.

CM Punk and the WWE creative team probably did more in the past week to put over Bryan than Cole has ever done.

[Astil]

To the common fan a vocal passionate fan base means nothing. It's done nothing for Christian, arguably the internet fans golden boy. You need a proper story to make people stand up and take notice. Cole is just saying what Brian has to fight against regardless. He's small. He did say something and go back on it. He doesn't have the 'WWE' look. It makes every victory much more worth it, that you get to shove it in the haters face. The more obnoxious, annoying, mean the hater is, the more satisfying the victory.

[OldStingberg]

To the common fan a vocal passionate fan base means nothing.

That's an odd thing to say. You seem to be replying to me as if I said Bryan's indy fan base has gotten him over with the more common fans. Except I didn't make that argument.

Bryan is not very over right now. In terms of active faces, he's certainly behind Cena, Orton, Punk, Ryder, and Sheamus. If you add in injured/semi-active guys, he's also certainly behind Triple H, Taker, Rey Mysterio, and Sin Cara.

My point is that the people Bryan is actually over with, the people that have made the WWE semi-comfortable with putting the title on Bryan, have absolutely nothing to do with Michael Cole. In other words, Michael Cole has done very little to nothing to get Bryan new, casual fans.

[Astil]

In other words, Michael Cole has done very little to nothing to get Bryan new, casual fans.

I disagree with this. That's what my above post was about.

[20LEgend]

I also think that to a casual fan it's more like

Michael Cole = dislike, so they disagree with Michael Cole's opinion. I think that makes sense to the less knowledgeable fan, but I don't know any so it's just something I think makes sense.

I like Cole, just not when it takes away from matches, he is really funny at times.

[Jaysin]

I loved Matt Striker's commentary at the Royal Rumble, the fact that he seems to actually enjoy the show is so much more appealing than King's hemipygic delivery.

Yeah, that's why I'm such a huge fan of Striker. He's pretty knowledgeable(doesn't call the Whisper in the Wind the Twist of Fate *cough*JR*cough*). He's effective as a heel commentator by defending the heels without burying faces.

In my opinion he's the best color commentator since Bobby Heenan.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Cole certainly did his part in putting over Bryan, and I'm sure Bryan's demeanor alone wouldn't have cut it. Especially with his MITB run. I mean hell, half of Bryan's standout promos involve or come from him shutting Michael Cole up, or trying to. The constant badgering from Cole involved him talking about his character and made him sympathetic - heck it's basically what Bryan had. It's a classic "woobie" persona, which had to be validated through Cole, given his role.

Now as for Cole himself, his status is very hot and cold for me. On the longer scale his commentary annoys me, he gets tedious and overbearing at certain points, but he's done his fair share for certain characters, the way he's talked about them. namely miz, Ryder, Bryan and to a lesser extent other up and comers.

[bigtplaystew]

Comeon lol. COLE is the reason the guy's champion???

Bryan Danielson one of the best wrestlers I've EVER seen in my life. An all around amazing performer who has done great work. Now his WWE stuff has been decidedly less "balls-to-the-wall" for lack of a better phrase, but he's actually transitions very well into their style of storytelling and performance.

Now of course I understand he hasn't done it alone. Good angles and good opponents have helped him rise. I suppose commentary as well. But I simply do not agree at all with the idea that MICHEAL COLE is the sole reason Daniel Bryan has a belt. I'm sorry. Cole has ripped too many people just as hard for that to be a valid reason for anything. Under that logic, A-Ry should be bigger than John Cena right now.

[ZMAN]

I don't see why Cole assisting in getting Bryan over is such a negative thing, anyway. That's his job isn't it? Giving him full credit is garbage, but he does deserve a little bit of recognition. Just like Jr. deserves some credit when it comes to getting guys like SCSA over. Same with Brain / Flair, and several other workers who have received help from announcers in getting their gimmicks over.

Cole is here for the long-run, okay cool DB shouldn't have a problem remaining WHW champion then, since Cole is the reason he is champion. I think fans can live with that.

It really is the most pointless argument(with the intent of just stirring up trouble with passionate DB fans), but w/e I guess that's why we have these forums.

[djthefunkchris]

It really is the most pointless argument(with the intent of just stirring up trouble with passionate DB fans), but w/e I guess that's why we have these forums.

Actually, the point was just to give Cole a little credit for what he's doing... Daniel Bryan just happens to be the focal point, but certainly no one has denied Bryan's actual in ring talent. It's not to stir up any trouble with any passionate fans of Daniel Bryan's, but to perhaps take a little hate off of Cole.

I'd bet money if anyone (including myself) thought that I was going to upset a Daniel Bryan fan, I just wouldn't have said anything at all... after all, I'm a Daniel Bryan fan.

[moon_lit_tears]

Actually, the point was just to give Cole a little credit for what he's doing... Daniel Bryan just happens to be the focal point, but certainly no one has denied Bryan's actual in ring talent. It's not to stir up any trouble with any passionate fans of Daniel Bryan's, but to perhaps take a little hate off of Cole.

I'd bet money if anyone (including myself) thought that I was going to upset a Daniel Bryan fan, I just wouldn't have said anything at all... after all, I'm a Daniel Bryan fan.

I'm a fan too, my problem is Cole is just too....over the top.

He comes off like a jerk. I know that's his role, but when Jerry was a heel commentator he had a way of not sounding so crude.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm a fan too, my problem is Cole is just too....over the top.

He comes off like a jerk. I know that's his role, but when Jerry was a heel commentator he had a way of not sounding so crude.

My opinion, Jerry was never a 100% Heel. I really can't recall anyone in the last several years as a 100% heel. For example, Jerry would be a heel 'til they messed with JR. To me... Jerry is still bassically the same character he has been. Still gives Miz and other heels credit, still says things about Face's that aren't exactly "good". He just has never been 100% heel, and with Cole being that 100% Heel, Jerry isn't really balancing it out the way a "Face" commentator should. He has his say now and then, but never really comes off with anything to fight Cole's words with effectively. Put someone that is 100% face in his shoe's, someone that could balance it out better, and you would probably see Cole in a different light.

[moon_lit_tears]

My opinion, Jerry was never a 100% Heel. I really can't recall anyone in the last several years as a 100% heel. For example, Jerry would be a heel 'til they messed with JR. To me... Jerry is still bassically the same character he has been. Still gives Miz and other heels credit, still says things about Face's that aren't exactly "good". He just has never been 100% heel, and with Cole being that 100% Heel, Jerry isn't really balancing it out the way a "Face" commentator should. He has his say now and then, but never really comes off with anything to fight Cole's words with effectively. Put someone that is 100% face in his shoe's, someone that could balance it out better, and you would probably see Cole in a different light.


It's possible, but I've never liked Cole since he started years ago.

They need a chick up there. :p

See I think getting someone who is the opposite of Jerry more for the heels, but not quite as obnoxious as Cole and you'd be good. :)

[djthefunkchris]

It's possible, but I've never liked Cole since he started years ago.

They need a chick up there. :p

See I think getting someone who is the opposite of Jerry more for the heels, but not quite as obnoxious as Cole and you'd be good. :)

I'd like to see a female commentator at some point, as long as she does well.

I agree to an extent with you though. I liked Jerry with Jr. I felt it was a good balance, because Jerry would give JR's points consideration, and likewise JR would do the same. They worked well together.

You're looking for that "halfway" guy, which is what Jerry played (and still does to an extent) all along, or at least the last several years.

I get that you don't like Cole (bad heat, not good heat), want to turn the channel when he comes on, etc. He doesn't rub you right, and there is alot of reasons that type of character wouldn't... outside of the fact that he plays it so well, I can't help feeling it's closer to how he really is. He's that guy you have to work for that gets people upset, then dares them to hit them because he knows it could cause you your job. He's that sniveling brat that would tell on people (anything from School to work, to whatever) because he thinks if he makes you look bad, it makes him look good. He's that guy that thinks the louder you are, it will make him look right, no matter how wrong he is, etc.

It's the role though... I hate people like that in real life, and I have on occasion just said to heck with it, and did something I probably shouldn't have (although the effect has always been.. I don't have to put up with them anymore). In real life, I wouldn't want to be around someone like him, wouldn't want to talk to him, wouldn't want to be at a party he's at, etc... But I would love for him to be publicly embarrased. I'd love for people to prove him wrong. I'd love for him to put his foot in his mouth over and over again, just to shut him up.

That's the person they have him portray, and that's why it's so borderline. I guy that just don't take any crap, or is mad because he's been done wrong, hasn't been given a proper chance, etc... and is a Heel, they are easy to get behind as heels. People who just play weak little sniveling weezle's are different. All I'm saying is it's effective.

[Teh_Showtime]

My opinion, Jerry was never a 100% Heel. I really can't recall anyone in the last several years as a 100% heel.

Lawler was uber heel in the early/mid 90s. One of my favorite matches is Bret vs Owen WMX and he was for sure a heel in the booth for that time period.

[ZMAN]

A better colour guy might improve Cole's performance. JBL and Taz seemed to make Cole tolerable back in the day. Lawler and Booker just seem out of it half of the time. They are too easy for Cole to pick on, which allows him say pretty much whatever he wants. They need someone witty or smart, who can come up with clever comebacks to balance out the booth.

[Jaysin]

Booker would be so much better behind the desk if he just acted like himself instead of being an exaggerated version of himself.

[Fantabulous]

Anyone who claims Michael Cole is the reason Daniel Bryan is World champion is so beyond clueless as to simply be impossible to take seriously. And if it's an attempt at trolling, the conclusion is the same, because it's such a desperate cry for attention.

[Basmat01]

The WWE want you to hate Cole. everyone who hates having to listen to Cole is because the WWE WANTS you to hate Cole. So when Cole gets beat up or made to look like a fool. its the face who gets that little momentum from it.

Daniel was put in the position where when he told Cole to suck it he would get that cheer for it. Santino could of taken that spot and the outcome would of been the same.

Cole is not the reason Daniel is world champ. But I do think that The Miz and Cole both help start it off on NXT.

[Self]

I was so excited for the angle with Miz on NXT. It was a perfect way to kick Bryan off... for a few weeks. It got muddled along the way, but the premise was gold.

Sure, babyfaces get a pop for hitting or mocking Cole, but the little bugger always survives. So any blows struck against him seem ineffectual. To me anyway. I keep up with goings on, but I don't actually watch RAW regularly. Last time I saw 2 or more episodes in a RAW was at the beginning of the summer of Punk.

Oh, and djthefunkchris, have you watched any Japan? I can see what you mean about indy wrestling being kids playing (although as they're all my age I don't find it off-putting yet) but there are Japanese promotions with men in there. NJPW are apparently awesome. I'm more of a Dragon Gate guy (openthedragongate.com to see episodes) but they may be kinda indy for you.

[Linsolv]

I find that I don't like anything out of Japan more than the late 80s AJPW matches with Tenryu. :I

[djthefunkchris]

I was so excited for the angle with Miz on NXT. It was a perfect way to kick Bryan off... for a few weeks. It got muddled along the way, but the premise was gold.

Sure, babyfaces get a pop for hitting or mocking Cole, but the little bugger always survives. So any blows struck against him seem ineffectual. To me anyway. I keep up with goings on, but I don't actually watch RAW regularly. Last time I saw 2 or more episodes in a RAW was at the beginning of the summer of Punk.

Oh, and djthefunkchris, have you watched any Japan? I can see what you mean about indy wrestling being kids playing (although as they're all my age I don't find it off-putting yet) but there are Japanese promotions with men in there. NJPW are apparently awesome. I'm more of a Dragon Gate guy (openthedragongate.com to see episodes) but they may be kinda indy for you.

I've watched match's (off and on... I'm a MVP fan, so I kind of watch him still)... Same with Lucha. The only downfall I have is I don't understand any of the language, so I get bored with it even faster when they do talk.

It's fun at times though. I don't watch anything well enough to know who is who, but I have watched Alberto Del Rio with a mask, etc. I do watch the occassional Indie wrestling as well. I love that joker type character... Krimson (not the one in TNA, the one in Ohio). Really think he could come on WWE and stir it up, if they let it happen and went full out with that gimmick.

[djthefunkchris]

Anyone who claims Michael Cole is the reason Daniel Bryan is World champion is so beyond clueless as to simply be impossible to take seriously. And if it's an attempt at trolling, the conclusion is the same, because it's such a desperate cry for attention.
I don't see anyone trolling. Your entitled to your opinion, we are entitle'd to our opinion. No one has put Daniel Bryan down, and no one has said he didnt' deserve it (Cole or no Cole). All that is said is Cole helped him get there faster. If you can't see that, it's ok. No one is trying to force their opinion on you, and you don't have to take anyone seriously if you don't want to.

Personally, I think Punk had a little something to do with it as well (backstage). That's just me thinking Punk has a little bit of pull though, something you probably wouldn't believe either.
The WWE want you to hate Cole. everyone who hates having to listen to Cole is because the WWE WANTS you to hate Cole. So when Cole gets beat up or made to look like a fool. its the face who gets that little momentum from it.

Daniel was put in the position where when he told Cole to suck it he would get that cheer for it. Santino could of taken that spot and the outcome would of been the same.

Cole is not the reason Daniel is world champ. But I do think that The Miz and Cole both help start it off on NXT.

Exactly, any number of people could have been put in the same spot.

[moon_lit_tears]

See I don't think that's true. Yes we all like to see Cole get told, but I don't think you can put *anyone* in that spot and get the same outcome.

He does give a small push to Bryan but you can't take what the guy has away from him.

Nor can you call the fans sheep, because that's kinda what you're doing by saying anyone in that spot would be in Bryans spot now.

[Astil]

Anyone who claims Michael Cole is the reason Daniel Bryan is World champion is so beyond clueless as to simply be impossible to take seriously. And if it's an attempt at trolling, the conclusion is the same, because it's such a desperate cry for attention.

Not trolling, not dumb, and I believe that. I presented some facts as to why I believe my point, such as Cole is meant to be hated and gives a big rub to anyone who 'proves him wrong'. Cole's opinions are usually dismissed, so having Cole bring up 'facts' even if they are true diminishes the truthfulness.

Look, Daniel is good. Really good. But without Cole's help he's Chavo Guerrero in the WWE. He just doesn't get over.


Personally, I think Punk had a little something to do with it as well (backstage). That's just me thinking Punk has a little bit of pull though, something you probably wouldn't believe either.


Interesting theory. I wonder if after MitB he's seen differently by creative.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Comeon lol. COLE is the reason the guy's champion???

Bryan Danielson one of the best wrestlers I've EVER seen in my life. An all around amazing performer who has done great work. Now his WWE stuff has been decidedly less "balls-to-the-wall" for lack of a better phrase, but he's actually transitions very well into their style of storytelling and performance.

Now of course I understand he hasn't done it alone. Good angles and good opponents have helped him rise. I suppose commentary as well. But I simply do not agree at all with the idea that MICHEAL COLE is the sole reason Daniel Bryan has a belt. I'm sorry. Cole has ripped too many people just as hard for that to be a valid reason for anything. Under that logic, A-Ry should be bigger than John Cena right now.

Personally, I'm not taking anything away from him. Bryan is one of the most talented around, but you and I both know talent alone doesn't cut it in the WWE. Among the many factors you need, you need that "hook" that captures the fans' attention, whether related to their gimmick or demeanor. At the top of the mountain in WWE's history has reigned the talentless and the talented.

Yeah, Bryan has transitioned well to their style.. that's the minimal requirement to keep his job. that can't be the end of it. Cole's contribution was vital in his rise to the top, because it was part of Bryan's schtick.. being the sympathetic babyface ith a dreadful W/L record throughout the year, which only added to what Cole was saying. Take that away from him, and what does he have? Exactly. If you tell me sheer talent, then it just likens him to another Benoit, MVP or pre-2011 Christian who've wandered around for years with workrate only to their name.

I don't see why Cole assisting in getting Bryan over is such a negative thing, anyway. That's his job isn't it? Giving him full credit is garbage, but he does deserve a little bit of recognition. Just like Jr. deserves some credit when it comes to getting guys like SCSA over. Same with Brain / Flair, and several other workers who have received help from announcers in getting their gimmicks over.

Cole is here for the long-run, okay cool DB shouldn't have a problem remaining WHW champion then, since Cole is the reason he is champion. I think fans can live with that.

Agreed on all counts.

Anyone who claims Michael Cole is the reason Daniel Bryan is World champion is so beyond clueless as to simply be impossible to take seriously. And if it's an attempt at trolling, the conclusion is the same, because it's such a desperate cry for attention.

Wah.

[Fantabulous]

It's interesting that when people talk about how much they hate Cole's commentary, they usually get met with people insisting that's the 'right' reaction and who totally ignore that Cole's commentary is a major turn-off for that person. It's obvious some people get into a Cole as a heel, which is fine, but whenever I hear or read or see people talking about how much they hate Cole on commentary, it's very rarely in the vein of him being a great heel who they want to see get it in the end but almost entirely a genuine hatred of his commentary with some very valid explanations of how and why it's a major turn-off for them and taking away from the product. Like I said, if people are into him as a heel, that's fine, but I think it's about time such people realize they're the ones in the minority and the majority of people who hate Cole aren't wanting him to get his comeuppance they're just wanting him to shut up and go away. I'd like to think most people, even those who get into Cole's character, are intelligent enough to realize that you're main commentator being such an obnoxious heel whilst simultaneously being the guy who is meant to be the main salesperson to get across the matches and stories to where people buy into them and buy the product is a bad combination. I'd like to think that, anyway.

[Astil]

/shrug

I'm in the minority then. I think Cole works as an announcer and riles people up in the right way.

Still doesn't make me think Bryan would be champ if Cole hadn't put him over again and again. Not this early at least.

You're point about Cole being the main salesperson kind of leads into my opinion. Without Cole's selling the casual fan's wouldn't have bought Bryan. Without the casual fans support Bryan is a midcarder, no matter how good he is in the ring. It just so happens that Cole sells using reverse psychology. Hate who I love, love who I hate.

[djthefunkchris]

/nod.

You know Daniel Bryan is great in the ring... but that's not what gets you over in WWE. With Punk... It was all Punk. That promo did it, and my opinion was his Austin 3:16 moment. With Bryan? It wasn't his godly mic skill, it wasn't some promo, it's not his great physique, it wasn't some awesome youtube show, and everyone knows that actaul in ring talent is at best secondary in WWE. So what did it? His boyish charm?

Cole had alot to do with it, and even after the first time he (Bryan) was on TV, with Cole doing exactly what he's been doing all along, they felt they had "Made" a star, unless the IWC was wrong on Vince's comments of the show.

[OldStingberg]

/shrug

I'm in the minority then. I think Cole works as an announcer and riles people up in the right way.

Still doesn't make me think Bryan would be champ if Cole hadn't put him over again and again. Not this early at least.

You're point about Cole being the main salesperson kind of leads into my opinion. Without Cole's selling the casual fan's wouldn't have bought Bryan. Without the casual fans support Bryan is a midcarder, no matter how good he is in the ring. It just so happens that Cole sells using reverse psychology. Hate who I love, love who I hate.

But the casual fans haven't bought Bryan! That's the point. Relative to his position on the card, he gets the most tepid reaction. Until about a month or two ago when they put Bryan back into the title picture, he barely got any reaction at all.

If Bryan was over with the casual fans, Cole would have something to do with that. But he's not. That should tell you how well Cole has been "putting over" Bryan.

[Astil]

But the casual fans haven't bought Bryan! That's the point. Relative to his position on the card, he gets the most tepid reaction. Until about a month or two ago when they put Bryan back into the title picture, he barely got any reaction at all.

If Bryan was over with the casual fans, Cole would have something to do with that. But he's not. That should tell you how well Cole has been "putting over" Bryan.

The main event Henry vs. Bryan match they did on SD! recently says different, as did his faux cash in.

[djthefunkchris]

But the casual fans haven't bought Bryan! That's the point. Relative to his position on the card, he gets the most tepid reaction. Until about a month or two ago when they put Bryan back into the title picture, he barely got any reaction at all.

If Bryan was over with the casual fans, Cole would have something to do with that. But he's not. That should tell you how well Cole has been "putting over" Bryan.

I watch wrestling with nothing but casual fans and, at least with them, this is a totally incorrect statement. "In your face Cole!" is something that is said around the room everytime Bryan gets a win. Has been for some time. Laughter when Bryan goes over and stands right in front of Cole with his title. My wife can't stand Cole, and I'm telling you right now, anyone, ANYONE that gets in Cole's face, she yells at them to hit Cole (yeah... My wife does this and it's irritating sometimes). My wife is a casual fan, if you can even count her as a fan... she would rather watch a good movie anyday, puts up with Wrestling because of me.

You make it sound like WWE only put it on Bryan because of his indie following.... if that was the case, they could have put it on him when he first debuted, because if that's all it took, they were sure there then.

[djthefunkchris]

See I don't think that's true. Yes we all like to see Cole get told, but I don't think you can put *anyone* in that spot and get the same outcome.

He does give a small push to Bryan but you can't take what the guy has away from him.

Nor can you call the fans sheep, because that's kinda what you're doing by saying anyone in that spot would be in Bryans spot now.

I've been hearing the WWE fans are sheep for years. Doesn't mean they are, I know... It's about the Entertainment in WWE though, and Cole is a big part of that Entertainment, no matter if anyone want's to credit him or not. I've been reading IWC thoughts on him for a good while, and they don't give the guy any slack. To me though, it's exactly what Cole is supposed to be, the "Anti-IWC"... I mean, he calls them a bunch of losers almost every show, so of course "we" as the IWC are supposed to hate him and make him out to be "Bad Heat" because "WE" are the one's he is pulling no punches with. "Look at your puny little star IWC, He don't stand a chance IWC, He's a geek IWC, an INTERNET geek. He's not made of the material it takes for a promotion like WWE, he shouldn't even be here IWC! He's nothing compared to REAL stars!" and on and on he goes. He's getting the IWC to hate him (legitimately) and at the same time, casual fans can't stand him either, because he's a sniveling coward that shouts at the top of his lungs to get his point accross.

I understand the legitimate hate for Cole, I really do. However, I respectfully dissagree that it's not working for the casual fans.

[OldStingberg]

The main event Henry vs. Bryan match they did on SD! recently says different, as did his faux cash in.

His fake cash-in happened in Pennsylvania, which is a haven for hardcore fans, especially fans of ROH.

And his reaction in the cage match was certainly solid. I'd say that that's much more the result of a month of reasonable booking along with Bryan improving on the mic, though, and much less anything to do with Cole.

Again, and this point still stands, if Cole was effectively putting over Bryan, he wouldn't have spent most of the year as one of the least over legitimate superstars. It wasn't until the WWE started booking Bryan as part of the title picture that the more casual fans started (very slowly) coming on board. A month or two of average booking did more to put over Bryan than Cole was able to do in a year.

[Astil]

His fake cash-in happened in Pennsylvania, which is a haven for hardcore fans, especially fans of ROH.

And his reaction in the cage match was certainly solid. I'd say that that's much more the result of a month of reasonable booking along with Bryan improving on the mic, though, and much less anything to do with Cole.

Again, and this point still stands, if Cole was effectively putting over Bryan, he wouldn't have spent most of the year as one of the least over legitimate superstars. It wasn't until the WWE started booking Bryan as part of the title picture that the more casual fans started (very slowly) coming on board. A month or two of average booking did more to put over Bryan than Cole was able to do in a year.

I'd say it's a part of both. Also you have to understand, Bryan wouldn't be getting shots if it wasn't for his MitB win. That was the start of WWE pulling the trigger on him.

I'm not saying Bryan doesn't deserve it or wouldn't get there eventually any way. I'm saying the reason he won this title, so fast after debuting is Cole.

[angeldelayette]

WrestleMania could very well have an internet fan's dream match.

A title unification match between Daniel Bryan and CM Punk.

Thoughts?

[Astil]

WrestleMania could very well have an internet fan's dream match.

A title unification match between Daniel Bryan and CM Punk.

Thoughts?

I want it, but I doubt it.

[moon_lit_tears]

WrestleMania could very well have an internet fan's dream match.

A title unification match between Daniel Bryan and CM Punk.

Thoughts?

I really hope not.

[Fantabulous]

WrestleMania could very well have an internet fan's dream match.

A title unification match between Daniel Bryan and CM Punk.

Thoughts?

Not in this lifetime or the next. If this match ever happens, and I suspect they have a small window for it, it'll be on TV.

[Teh_Showtime]

It doesn't even make sense to have that match.

I'm banking on Bryan/Henry at WM and Orton vs Barret for the WHC.

Punk vs Jericho for the WWE title.

[Fantabulous]

It doesn't even make sense to have that match.

They do occasionally have champion vs. champion matches on TV, but you usually get a finish where the 'inferior' brand's champion looks like a schmuck.

[Teh_Showtime]

I mean at WM. I could see it on Raw though since Ace did book a Cena/Ryder match recently.

[Wrestling Century]

IMO Jim Ross has always been the best at putting wrestlers and storylines over. He doesn't trash all of the faces or the heels, he puts them over by talking about what good qualities they have, and then if it makes sense in the context of a match or storyline he points out their weaknesses. Michael Cole pointing out Daniel Bryan's actual weaknesses does not put Daniel Bryan over, it buries him. It wouldn't be too bad if Cole pointed out weaknesses that he made up, but he points out real weaknesses.

The time that bothered me the most was when Del Rio made Bryan tap out a few weeks ago on Raw, and Cole jumped all over the fact, saying that if Bryan is such a submission expert, then why did he tap out to a submission. That was just a burial, plain and simple.

[OldStingberg]

IMO Jim Ross has always been the best at putting wrestlers and storylines over. He doesn't trash all of the faces or the heels, he puts them over by talking about what good qualities they have, and then if it makes sense in the context of a match or storyline he points out their weaknesses. Michael Cole pointing out Daniel Bryan's actual weaknesses does not put Daniel Bryan over, it buries him. It wouldn't be too bad if Cole pointed out weaknesses that he made up, but he points out real weaknesses.

The time that bothered me the most was when Del Rio made Bryan tap out a few weeks ago on Raw, and Cole jumped all over the fact, saying that if Bryan is such a submission expert, then why did he tap out to a submission. That was just a burial, plain and simple.

I remember a time a couple months ago on Smackdown when Cole was criticizing Bryan saying he's not even great at submissions, he only has two of them. Bryan happened to put on a submission at that moment, so Josh Matthews and Booker T jumped in and literally said something to the effect of, "See! That's three!" Not only was Cole cutting Bryan's legs out from under him, the other two managed to make the situation even worse. It's almost incredible how bad the WWE announcing situation is right now.

I will say, though, that I thought Cole did a much better job on Raw this week. His stunned silence while Lawler taunted him was great, and I loved his "why are you doing this to me?!?" stuff. That's the way a heel commentator puts over a talent. He didn't shine light on his weaknesses or undercut his strengths. Cole just took his own miserable personality and made some harmless comments against Bryan.

[Teh_Showtime]

I am so sad Grish left for ESPN right now. Him and Striker was my favorite duo after JR/King of this decade. I miss WWECW :(. I was a faithful watcher and witnessed so many epic matches for a "C" brand show.

[djthefunkchris]

I am so sad Grish left for ESPN right now. Him and Striker was my favorite duo after JR/King of this decade. I miss WWECW :(. I was a faithful watcher and witnessed so many epic matches for a "C" brand show.

I really liked WWECW as well. I don't know why they cancelled it, because to be honest, was my favorite of the three... I will never forget RVD vs. Hardcore Holly for example. I remember the whole Punk going with the "New Breed" and still staying a face, and keeping the respect of the others.

This was all good storytelling IMO, but it never was recieved well, as I recall. Everyone wanted THE ECW, and we all knew that wouldn't happen.

To me, it had less talk, more action. All the things I like went on while watching it, and I even liked the Layla led dancers. Heck, to me it was THE show to watch, far as WWE was concerned.

[ZMAN]

WWECW was not that bad by the end of their run. No, it wasn't the old ECW, but they eventually made a point that it wasn't supposed to be. The only time they struggled was in the beginning when they tried to be something they weren't (original ECW). But by the time they finally did establish their own identity, their show got terminated. I think it's one of WWE's missed opportunities at keeping a portion of their fanbase. Yeah, there's the PG rated shows of SD and Raw, but what about the rest of your audience (and your biggest audience) who enjoy the non-PG WWE?

Instead they gave us NXT or Superstars. Decent shows, but they both could have been integrated into ECW.

[bigtplaystew]

I liked WWECW too. At first I was snobby about it. Then it became the Christian Show and I loved it :-)

But I do wish there was a show to have actual decent storylines for guys at that level. ECW had that. You had crafty veterans mixing it up with young talent. It made for an interesting dynamic.

[Teh_Showtime]

Just to reference. Former ECW champs who won a World title since the show was replaced in early 2010:

Christian
Jack Swagger
CM Punk
Kane

And then other world champs since 2010 from ECW who never won the belt:
Sheamus
Miz

And then it provided us with a load of the midcarders:
JoMo
Bourne
Kingston
Ryder
And a ton who are not on the roster anymore

[jjohns44]

"Nyyyyeah Daniel Bryan's gonna be the first person to cash in the briefcase and lose"

sayers of Nay, must now eat those tasty salty words.

I was also reminded of Guerrero/Benoit celebrating their titles at WM.

If WWE is starting to take the direction of wrestling over entertainment, Bryan would be a top guy. Had some great matches despite losing, but IMO win or lose, it's what you do in the ring and he looked solid.

[LoNdOn]

Just to reference. Former ECW champs who won a World title since the show was replaced in early 2010:

Christian
Jack Swagger
CM Punk
Kane

And then other world champs since 2010 from ECW who never won the belt:
Sheamus
Miz

And then it provided us with a load of the midcarders:
JoMo
Bourne
Kingston
Ryder
And a ton who are not on the roster anymore

You missed Mark Henry and Big Show off that top list.

[MVP!]

*crawls from under a rock*

Michael Cole is annoying to me, yes. I find his heel act to do more harm than good, but he can be entertaining. I found a "Best of NXT Season 3" series on youtube which highlight how crappy, yet incredibly entertaining, that mockery of a wrestling show was.

The highlight of the entire season? The announcing. Sure, it's not good business to just bury the product, but after watching the videos and listening to Cole just not giving a **** and mocking the entire show, which Matthews, Striker, and CM Punk (his sarcastic announcer run was awesome) aknowledge as being pisspoor, had me laughing the whole way.

For those who want to see the compilations, it's on this channel:


http://www.youtube.com/user/xpantherx (http://www.youtube.com/user/xpantherx)

[Rone Rivendale]

I too was a big fan of WWECW. It was a great place for people who wouldn't otherwise see time on Raw or Smackdown to develop. Johnny Nitro became John Morrison. Zack Ryder got his first real taste of the big time with a great feud against Christian right before it went off the air. Christian himself established himself as a World Title contender in WWE by winning and holding the WWECW Title longer than anyone else. And of course big Zeke the last WWECW champion.

The only bad thing WWECW gave us was WWECW Champion... Chavo? #areyouseriousbro

[Astil]

I too was a big fan of WWECW. It was a great place for people who wouldn't otherwise see time on Raw or Smackdown to develop. Johnny Nitro became John Morrison. Zack Ryder got his first real taste of the big time with a great feud against Christian right before it went off the air. Christian himself established himself as a World Title contender in WWE by winning and holding the WWECW Title longer than anyone else. And of course big Zeke the last WWECW champion.

The only bad thing WWECW gave us was WWECW Champion... Chavo? #areyouseriousbro

Hey, Chavo's decent and he's the current tag champ in TNindiA with Harry Smith.

[Wrestling Century]

The only bad thing WWECW gave us was WWECW Champion... Chavo? #areyouseriousbro

Chavo is actually one of the best cruiserweights of all time, but something always seemed/seems to get in the way of him filling his full potential.

[ampulator]

Chavo is actually one of the best cruiserweights of all time, but something always seemed/seems to get in the way of him filling his full potential.
"One of the best cruiserweights of all time?" Are you serious? He's not even close. He's a decent worker, but I can think of at least three luchadors and three cruiserweights better than he is.

He's not that good in the air, he's not that good on the mat, he's not that good in brawling, he's only decent in terms of ringwork. He was never that popular either. Anything he can do, everyone else did better, or had more of. He didn't have much more to give in terms of potential.

Chavo was exactly where he should have been-a midcarder at best, an opener/enhancement talent at worst. And I like Chavo, but there was never much to him, even in his WCW days. Guys like Billy Kidman and Rey Mysterio always had more potential, guys like Dean Malenko put on great matches, and guys like Chris Jericho were meant to be future stars. He wasn't even close to any of these guys. He was above David Flair in terms of ringwork, but he never had the "spark" or "look" or "skill" to match others. Heck, I would say even guys today way outclass him in terms of ringwork. And I usually don't say that.

[Hashasheen]

snip

I'd personally disagree with that assessment, as well as the fact that you even compared him to David Flair in any way shape or form. Chavo was definitly in the top ten of WCW's cruiserweight division and one of their better workers in the WWE. He had a great mix of American high-flying and luchadore abilities that made him a great worker with both American workers and luchadores. Plus he had decent mic skills and was a far superior heel than a face. The guy could have done so much more in the cruiserweight division as a heel than anything else, but the WWE destroyed that division and kept putting him against guys above his weight class (Kane, Batisa when part of la Familia, etc...) in feuds that didn't help fans perceptions.

[Jaysin]

The only bad thing WWECW gave us was WWECW Champion... Chavo? #areyouseriousbro

Ok, you're a Disco Inferno fan but you don't see Chavo's talent? The guy was/is a good in ring worker and can make almost anyone look good. His feud with Punk in WWECW made for great in ring and promo work.

He was never on Eddie's level, but come on, he's awesome. Go back and watch his matches with Punk in WWECW or his runs as Cruiserweight champ in WWE or WCW.

I'd have him on my roster any day.

[ampulator]

I'd personally disagree with that assessment, as well as the fact that you even compared him to David Flair in any way shape or form. Chavo was definitly in the top ten of WCW's cruiserweight division and one of their better workers in the WWE. He had a great mix of American high-flying and luchadore abilities that made him a great worker with both American workers and luchadores. Plus he had decent mic skills and was a far superior heel than a face. The guy could have done so much more in the cruiserweight division as a heel than anything else, but the WWE destroyed that division and kept putting him against guys above his weight class (Kane, Batisa when part of la Familia, etc...) in feuds that didn't help fans perceptions.
Top ten? Really? It's not that I thought he was a bad worker. He wasn't. But the definition of "average", and you get Chavo. He wasn't really that good at anything. Anything he can do, he did okay, and anything he can do, everyone else can do better.

He got exactly what he deserved. He never sucked. But he was never that good either.

[Fantabulous]

"One of the best cruiserweights of all time?"

I can think of plenty of cruiserweight wrestlers who are far better than Chavo, in just about every area. Chavo was solid in almost all areas but not much more than that. He wasn't actually that experienced in the lucha style so he wasn't that good there, but other than that he was good but good's about it. Certainly nowhere near being one of the greatest of all time.

[djthefunkchris]

I liked Chavo, I thought he was a solid character. No matter to me if he was mid-card bound or not. He still stood out, which is better then alot of wrestler's over the years. The fact he could put on a match with bassically anyone/any style, made him versatile. I've always felt people like him were a necessity. One of the top 10 in anything... Not in my top 10, but definately someone I won't forget, which is saying something.

[ChrisKid]

*crawls from under a rock*

Michael Cole is annoying to me, yes. I find his heel act to do more harm than good, but he can be entertaining. I found a "Best of NXT Season 3" series on youtube which highlight how crappy, yet incredibly entertaining, that mockery of a wrestling show was.

The highlight of the entire season? The announcing. Sure, it's not good business to just bury the product, but after watching the videos and listening to Cole just not giving a **** and mocking the entire show, which Matthews, Striker, and CM Punk (his sarcastic announcer run was awesome) aknowledge as being pisspoor, had me laughing the whole way.

For those who want to see the compilations, it's on this channel:


http://www.youtube.com/user/xpantherx (http://www.youtube.com/user/xpantherx)

Cole,Matthews,Striker & Punk made this series watchable

[ampulator]

Cole sucks as an announcer, but shines as a color commentator. The WWE can't have him being both.

[Rone Rivendale]

I agree with the majority assessment of Chavo as a decent mid-carder who put on decent matches. Which is the only reason I found him to be piss-poor as the major titleholder of a brand. I realize the "ECW" Title wasn't a WORLD title. It was just slightly above IC and US Title level. But TBH, I never found Chavo worthy of the IC or US belts either so that explains my opinion on him as WWECW champion.

I liked his short lived gimmick as Kerwin White. It actually would have been nice to see where that could have led if Eddie hadn't passed away and forced WWE to change him back to Chavo to 'honor' Eddie by putting on boring matches and getting a cheap pop with the Frog Splash.

[ampulator]

It's not just that, it's that, even as a fan of the 90's wrestling, he isn't well-remembered (or well-disliked, to be fair) back then. He was just... there. He was just... Chavo. I never understood the adoration or hate he receives. He deserves neither, because he has earned neither. He never put on that many bad matches, but he has never put on any great matches either. Anytime he puts on a good match, it's because the other person. Sure, he doesn't drag the match down. That's a credit to him. but he doesn't elevate matches either.

[westerby]

I think Chavo was the last of what you'd call the 'good hands' in televised WWE.
Now they are only interested in making megastars and selling merch, guys like Chavo who are just there, being solid and elevating other are needed.

[djthefunkchris]

I think Chavo was the last of what you'd call the 'good hands' in televised WWE.
Now they are only interested in making megastars and selling merch, guys like Chavo who are just there, being solid and elevating other are needed.

/nod... Behind every megastar is 100 Chavo's (well, you get what I mean). I certainly think people like him are needed, not just to put people over either. I feel he makes a good middle man for title's as well... He can play both face or heel. I didn't think he was bad at being a face, felt he could have done better with better material. I didn't have a problem with him holding the ECW Title, and wouldn't have had a problem with any other title. I felt the storyline between himself and Rey Mysterio was pretty good as well, even though I wish Eddie wasn't part of that story. Would have worked if Chavo was just jeolous of Rey for being Rey as well. My opinion, they could have added the Smackdown Title to that, I wouldn't have had a problem. They didn't need to though.

[Wrestling Century]

IMO Chavo is one of the top ten cruiserweights of all time. He was never, ever given a chance to rise above midcard, and he does indeed have some of the best in ring skills ever. If you've ever seen him at a live event/house show before you would understand. With WWE jobbing him out the past few years I think that everybody forgot how great he was. Is he/was he ever on Eddie's or Liger's level? No, but he is still one of the best cruiserweights of all time.

[ampulator]

IMO Chavo is one of the top ten cruiserweights of all time. He was never, ever given a chance to rise above midcard, and he does indeed have some of the best in ring skills ever. If you've ever seen him at a live event/house show before you would understand. With WWE jobbing him out the past few years I think that everybody forgot how great he was. Is he/was he ever on Eddie's or Liger's level? No, but he is still one of the best cruiserweights of all time.
I can name three during the WCW era that were way better than he was-Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio, Billy Kidman. Malenko and Kidman didn't really rise above the midcard either, yet they are held in much better regard in terms of ringwork. Even guys like Yang, Jamie Knoble, Kaz Hayashi, Taka Michinoku, Shane Helms, Shannon Moore, Evan Karagias had more in terms of potential. That's not to mention Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, and maybe even Chris Benoit (I'm not sure I would consider him a cruiserweight, though). I'm not even going to go through the Luchadors, because he's nowhere even close to them.

If Chavo is on any list of "all time cruiserweights", he would certainly be at the bottom at that list.

[Jaysin]

I wouldn't say he's one of the top ten of all time. Especially if you include modern people like Christopher Daniels, AJ Styles, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley etc etc.

But I do believe he's a better worker than most people ever really give him credit for.

[ampulator]

I wouldn't say he's one of the top ten of all time. Especially if you include modern people like Christopher Daniels, AJ Styles, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley etc etc.

But I do believe he's a better worker than most people ever really give him credit for.
It depends on what you mean by "credit". He certainly ain't crap like a lot of people say he is, I'd give you that. But he's not that good. Solid? Of course. Good? Not really. You can compare him to anyone else during any era, there's also a ton of people better than he was at what he did.

[Unregistered]

I just want to say, that I don't care what anyone says, but I loved Pepe. And, in ode to the spirit of Pepe, I love Chavo. Even if Chavo wasn't the greatest of wrestlers, he still brought to the world Pepe.

I have a feeling I may be the only one to remember this. Well me, and Norman Smiley.

[ampulator]

I just want to say, that I don't care what anyone says, but I loved Pepe. And, in ode to the spirit of Pepe, I love Chavo. Even if Chavo wasn't the greatest of wrestlers, he still brought to the world Pepe.

I have a feeling I may be the only one to remember this. Well me, and Norman Smiley.
You know, I can respect that. I don't understand it, but I can respect that.

[Wrestling Century]

I can name three during the WCW era that were way better than he was-Dean Malenko, Rey Mysterio, Billy Kidman. Malenko and Kidman didn't really rise above the midcard either, yet they are held in much better regard in terms of ringwork. Even guys like Yang, Jamie Knoble, Kaz Hayashi, Taka Michinoku, Shane Helms, Shannon Moore, Evan Karagias had more in terms of potential. That's not to mention Eddie Guerrero, Chris Jericho, and maybe even Chris Benoit (I'm not sure I would consider him a cruiserweight, though). I'm not even going to go through the Luchadors, because he's nowhere even close to them.

If Chavo is on any list of "all time cruiserweights", he would certainly be at the bottom at that list.

I wouldn't count Malenko as a cruiserweight, he was more of a technician that WCW threw into the cruiserweight division. Kidman was above average, and the rest of the wrestlers you named were IMO average. Also, Karagias was slightly below average IMO, and I certainly don't consider Benoit a cruiserweight. I would say that Chavo is on par with Chris Jericho in terms of in ring skills, but not in terms of charisma. Just my opinion of course, but a large majority of those guys you mentioned wouldn't even crack my top ten list, or wouldn't be considered cruiserweights in my book.

[ampulator]

I wouldn't count Malenko as a cruiserweight, he was more of a technician that WCW threw into the cruiserweight division. Kidman was above average, and the rest of the wrestlers you named were IMO average. Also, Karagias was slightly below average IMO, and I certainly don't consider Benoit a cruiserweight. I would say that Chavo is on par with Chris Jericho in terms of in ring skills, but not in terms of charisma. Just my opinion of course, but a large majority of those guys you mentioned wouldn't even crack my top ten list, or wouldn't be considered cruiserweights in my book.
In terms of ring skills on par with Chris Jericho? That's just hilarious. Chris Jericho's Japan, Mexico, and WCW work way outclasses anything that Chavo can do. One will run out on both hands to count on how many great matches he had.

Chavo has only one notable fued. One. With a worker way better than he was. Punk. And it's nowhere near even Jericho's work with Storm, Benoit, Angle, Malenko, Eddie Guerrero, Juventud Guerrera, Rey Mysterio, and Billy Kidman.

Since when did Chavo have awesome matches with guys like Juventud Guerrera or Rey Myserio? It's guys he's worked with for years. And none of those matches are even among the best Juventud Guerrera and Rey Mysterio can do.

Billy Kidman was way more athletic, and also a better high flyer as well. He has had awesome matches with workers that Chavo has worked with, but none of which Chavo's ever even compares to Kidman's. Kidman's work with Mysterio and Guerrera are way more notable than Chavo's work with them.

Even if you narrow the definition of "cruiserweight", Jericho is way above in terms of what Chavo was. Better Psychology. Better Selling. Better High Flying. More Charisma. More "It". Chris Jericho is on par with Kurt Angle, Chris Benoit, and Eddie Guerrero in terms of ringwork. Unless you think Chavo is close to Angle, Benoit, or Eddie, I can't see how Chavo is even close to Jericho.

[Fantabulous]

I stopped paying much attention when he claimed Chavo was one of the best cruiserweights of all time. If he'd called him one of his favourite cruiserweights of all time then it wouldn't be a big deal because everyone has their own tastes, but Chavo just isn't good enough to be in a credible top-10 of all time great cruiserweight wrestlers. There are too many way more talented wrestlers, in the US alone before you get into other countries, who smoke Chavo in every department. But when you start claiming Dean Malenko isn't a cruiserweight and claiming other cruiserweights aren't really cruiserweights, then you're impossible take seriously and give your opinion any credence.

[Hashasheen]

Top ten? Really? It's not that I thought he was a bad worker. He wasn't. But the definition of "average", and you get Chavo. He wasn't really that good at anything. Anything he can do, he did okay, and anything he can do, everyone else can do better.

He got exactly what he deserved. He never sucked. But he was never that good either. We might be disagreeing based on how we view cruiserweight workers. I don't look for guys who were more akin to spot-monkeys than complete workers (which is what a lot of the luchadores brought into WCW were) in my division. Promo-wise, wrestling-wise, Chavo had an edge over much of the division, was incredibly entertaining and held his own in most of his feuds.

[Teh_Showtime]

Guys like Jericho, Eddie, Malenko, Ultimo Dragon etc were not spot monkeys, and they were far superrior to Chavo.

[Hashasheen]

Guys like Jericho, Eddie, Malenko, Ultimo Dragon etc were not spot monkeys, and they were far superior to Chavo.

Hence top ten in the WCW cruiserweight division, not best of all time. The ones you've mentioned are definitely the upper crust of my top ten, and Chavo's in the lower half.

The WCW Cruiserweight division had massive depth and incredible turnover from 1996 to 2001, guys. Looking at those who preformed in the division during that time and their ability at that time and including my opinion as what makes a good cruiserweight (or just a good wrestler), I've got my top ten.

[Jaysin]

I just want to say, that I don't care what anyone says, but I loved Pepe. And, in ode to the spirit of Pepe, I love Chavo. Even if Chavo wasn't the greatest of wrestlers, he still brought to the world Pepe.

I have a feeling I may be the only one to remember this. Well me, and Norman Smiley.

I loved Pepe.

I also loved the Screamin Demons, but then again I think I'm the only one that remembers that amazingly entertaining duo.

[Rone Rivendale]

I loved Pepe.

I also loved the Screamin Demons, but then again I think I'm the only one that remembers that amazingly entertaining duo.

Was that Smiley and KISS Demon (aka Dale Torborg)? I don't remember that team, but I can guess from the name.

I was a big fan of Norman Smiley in WCW. He was the Santino of his time. Very talented in the ring but choose to spend his time entertaining the fans and giving them a good laugh instead of being serious and putting on 4 star matches.

You know, if WWE brought back the Hardcore Title, I could see Santino having that same gimmick of being Hardcore champion but being afraid of anything hardcore related.

[Hashasheen]

I loved Pepe.

I also loved the Screamin Demons, but then again I think I'm the only one that remembers that amazingly entertaining duo.

I remember them. When I first started delving into WCW, 2000 was my initial year (and great influence on what not to do). Man that was a great team.

[ampulator]

We might be disagreeing based on how we view cruiserweight workers. I don't look for guys who were more akin to spot-monkeys than complete workers (which is what a lot of the luchadores brought into WCW were) in my division. Promo-wise, wrestling-wise, Chavo had an edge over much of the division, was incredibly entertaining and held his own in most of his feuds.

Luchadores are not Spot Monkeys. Spot Monkeys copy Luchadors's awesome moments, but without the setups or the other skills to go with being a Luchador, at least, back then. (Not so sure now). Jeff Hardy was a Spot Monkey. La Parka, despite being heavier than Jeff Hardy by like 30 to 40 pounds back in the day, was a legit Luchador.

And La Parka was a much better worker than Chavo in every aspect.

He had an edge promo-wise because he spoke English better than the Luchadores (save Eddie). He didn't necessarily have more charisma, though. Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and La Parka had more in that respect. And La Parka had a full body suit on, and we couldn't even see his face.

I stopped paying much attention when he claimed Chavo was one of the best cruiserweights of all time. If he'd called him one of his favourite cruiserweights of all time then it wouldn't be a big deal because everyone has their own tastes, but Chavo just isn't good enough to be in a credible top-10 of all time great cruiserweight wrestlers. There are too many way more talented wrestlers, in the US alone before you get into other countries, who smoke Chavo in every department. But when you start claiming Dean Malenko isn't a cruiserweight and claiming other cruiserweights aren't really cruiserweights, then you're impossible take seriously and give your opinion any credence.

Strictly speaking, I can see definition like that, but it depends on what your defintion of cruiserweight is. If you exclusive non-high-flying, non-North-American workers, that would be the Modern definition of a cruiserweight. But like you said, you exclude Dean Maleno, Chris Benoit, maybe even La Parka.

[Fantabulous]

La Parka had so much charisma isn't even funny. It tends to get lost in the general mistreatment of the Mexican workers in WCW, but La Parka was such a wasted resource in WCW. The man knew how to work a crowd and was loaded with charisma and personality.

Going strictly by those who worked in WCW, I'd put Eddie, Rey, Juvi, Jericho, Malenko, Ultimo, La Parka, Psicosis, Damien, Super Calo all above Chavo, and there probably a few more as well. Of course, once you go beyond WCW, there are dozens of cruiserweight wrestlers who so much better than Chavo. If you change the definition of a cruiserweight to strict criteria, say, all those called Chavo Guerrero, I can see him hitting the top ten, but otherwise...

[Rone Rivendale]

lol Super Calo. He was the Sabu of luchadores. Botched at least once in every match he ever had. At least in WCW.

[JTandSilentBob]

If Super Calo is the Sabu of cruiserweights then Chavo was the Hardcore Holly. Solid but extremely boring.

IMO El Cucaracha was better than Chavo.

Honorable mention goes to Psychosis, Disco Inferno, Berlyn, the Yung Dragons, 3 Count, Madusa and Prince Iaukua (sp?)

[ampulator]

If you ask people, back then, in the 90's, who has had better matches with Juventud Guerrera and Rey Mysterio, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero. And if you asked who would be future star, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero.

If someone was mishandled by the WWE, there's many more worthy than Chavo. Lance Storm. Billy Kidman. Juventud Guerrero. Psicosis. Super Crazy. Taka Michinoku. All much more worthy than Chavo.

[codey]

If you ask people, back then, in the 90's, who has had better matches with Juventud Guerrera and Rey Mysterio, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero. And if you asked who would be future star, most people would pick Billy Kidman over Chavo Guerrero.

If someone was mishandled by the WWE, there's many more worthy than Chavo. Lance Storm. Billy Kidman. Juventud Guerrero. Psicosis. Super Crazy. Taka Michinoku. All much more worthy than Chavo.


I wouldn't say WWE mishandled Kidman all that much. He was good and one a few cruiserweight titles along with a tag team championship with Paul London, but his look just didn't scream star. In fact, it was completely bland. Long hair/wifebeater/shorts? That was a good look for him. Short hair and generic tights? Not so much.

You've got a point with the rest, though they all did get their chances to shine.

[ampulator]

I have always had this opinion-the WWE is missing some old ways of doing things that they should have kept, while missing a lot of opportunities to learn new in order for them to change.

And their luck is running out.

[lazorbeak]

I have always had this opinion-the WWE is missing some old ways of doing things that they should have kept, while missing a lot of opportunities to learn new in order for them to change.

And their luck is running out.

It wouldn't be Christmas without turning an idle debate about Chavo Guerrero's relative quality into a cryptic and outlandish statement about the imminent collapse of wrestling forever! And as much as I like the occasional lucha, the idea that WWE "mishandled" Psichosis or Super Crazy is pretty baffling: short of building a division for them, what are you going to do with tiny guys that can't talk and look less tough than the folks at the local Home Depot? And while Juvi could've been something more, he's sabotaged himself his entire career.

Oh and can we add Mr. Aguila/Essa Rios to the list of cruisers light years ahead of Chavo?

[ampulator]

It wouldn't be Christmas without turning an idle debate about Chavo Guerrero's relative quality into a cryptic and outlandish statement about the imminent collapse of wrestling forever! And as much as I like the occasional lucha, the idea that WWE "mishandled" Psichosis or Super Crazy is pretty baffling: short of building a division for them, what are you going to do with tiny guys that can't talk and look less tough than the folks at the local Home Depot? And while Juvi could've been something more, he's sabotaged himself his entire career.

Oh and can we add Mr. Aguila/Essa Rios to the list of cruisers light years ahead of Chavo?
It's not about the collapse of wrestling. It's about not doing stupid things. I don't really put too much on what's done right, I put more weight on what's done wrong. No matter how good things someone does, all it takes is one huge screw up to put that all down the drain. I don't mind if something is not perfect, but I do mind if the flaws are not minimized as much as possible.

As for Juvi sabotaging his career, I don't disagree, but anything he did, so did many other wrestlers. It's not that fair he didn't receive same leeway they did.

[Wrestling Century]

I stopped paying much attention when he claimed Chavo was one of the best cruiserweights of all time.

Ah, but you see, who we think is best is just our opinion. You are acting like your opinion is better than mine, when really, people's opinions can't be good or bad. I was simply stating why I thought Chavo was underrated and IMO is one of the best Cruiserweights of all time. But anyways, I always thought that Super Calo was one of the worst cruiserweights, at least one of the worst ones in WCW's cruiserweight division. He botched all the time, and when he didn't botch his matches were either spotfests or were boring, at least IMO. And Disco Inferno was ok in the ring, but his charisma and gimmick were awesome. I would put Disco Inferno higher than Chavo on my Top Ten list just because of that. :p

[milamber]

I'd rather talk about Bryan and Ziggler being the main event on SD. Awesome! At least until Teddy Bear turned it into a tag match. Not the best SD in recent memory but it continued the recent trend of WWE pushing newer/younger guys up the card. After a successful Cena-less PPV, I wonder if we'll see a PPV with Orton next year.

[Hashasheen]

Luchadores are not Spot Monkeys. Spot Monkeys copy Luchadors's awesome moments, but without the setups or the other skills to go with being a Luchador, at least, back then. And plenty of lucha/cruiserweight matches in WCW were little more than spotfests, with luchadores who were incredibly young and new to the business. It's a fact that WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion.


And La Parka was a much better worker than Chavo in every aspect.

He had an edge promo-wise because he spoke English better than the Luchadores (save Eddie). He didn't necessarily have more charisma, though. Eddie Guerrero, Rey Mysterio, Juventud Guerrera, and La Parka had more in that respect. And La Parka had a full body suit on, and we couldn't even see his face. All right, just to clear up any misunderstandings, here's my top ten WCW cruiserweights list:

1. La Parka
2. Chris Jericho
3. Dean Malenko
4. Eddie Guerrero
5. Ultimo Dragon
6. Rey Mysterio
7. Chavo Guerrero
8. Juventud Guerrera
9. Psicosis
10. Billy Kidman

[Fantabulous]

And plenty of lucha/cruiserweight matches in WCW were little more than spotfests, with luchadores who were incredibly young and new to the business. It's a fact that WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion.

The Luchadores might have been young but they were far from 'new to the business'. The fact is they had plenty of experience, likely far more than their American equivalent who had the same number of years in the business, due to the frequency of shows they run in Mexico. What's not a fact is is the claim that "WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion". They had a few young and green guys in that division, but most of the young and green talent WCW used was in the heavyweight Division; does the name the Natural Born Thrillers mean anything to you? A bunch guys green as grass with barely any time in the business and not one of them competed in the Cruiserweight division. Heck, during their more belt-tightening days in the 90s, it was the Heavyweight division who got the cheap labour.

[djthefunkchris]

Ah, but you see, who we think is best is just our opinion.

/nod. One man's trash is another man's treasure. This has been proven over and over again. I've said this before, but I do believe it to be true... I think when we talk about wrestler's, quite a bit of the time we are comparing their "stats" to game stats, something that doesn't really exist in the "real" world.

You can take any talent, find the things that work for them, and utilize them in such a way to get the best reactions, and people like The Warrior can become huge in the bussiness. I feel that most of wrestling just uses what the person brings to the table, and goes with that most of the time. In other words, I don't think everyone gets with the "creative" team, and goes over their qualities to figure out what might work better for them... although I'm sure some of them do (the one's already doing well more then likely).

I could take a group of wrestler's, give them all specific gimmicks, and have them work them gimmicks so that they are believable (providing they do have some talent in those area's), and presto.. You can take the worse of the 10, make that person be the "Technician", and the best of the 10, and make him into "Santino". IF you run the match's correctly, that guy that has the least technical ability of them all, will look as though he is worlds above the better technicians. The best technician might be the guy you only let do three moves.

It's a matter of opinion, unless you know the persons full capacity/bassically, know the person on a personal level and have had the priviledge of seeing everything that person is capable of, not just what the promotions he's worked for has him do.

With the Indie scenes, especially the very small promotions, I'm sure your seeing quite a bit more of what a person is really able to do, then what you see in bigger promotions, that write and tell stories, and make the gimmicks for the wrestler's rather then the wrestler providing the gimmick himself.

[Rone Rivendale]

With the Indie scenes, especially the very small promotions, I'm sure your seeing quite a bit more of what a person is really able to do, then what you see in bigger promotions, that write and tell stories, and make the gimmicks for the wrestler's rather then the wrestler providing the gimmick himself.

And that's why I love Indie wrestling. Also why I love Japanese wrestling. And what little Mexican Lucha I've been able to see.

WWE might be slowly going in that direction though. The backlash from removing 'wrestling' from their product was pretty bad. And now we got people like Daniel Bryan and CM Punk as World Champions.

[ampulator]

/nod. One man's trash is another man's treasure. This has been proven over and over again. I've said this before, but I do believe it to be true... I think when we talk about wrestler's, quite a bit of the time we are comparing their "stats" to game stats, something that doesn't really exist in the "real" world.
"That's my opinion" is equivalent of saying "Just about everything is subjective". And I don't believe that. Everyone is entitled their own opinion, yes, but some opinion are more wrong than others, especially the ones that don't correctly justify their opinions. It's a cop-out. It's also a way of saying "it's my opinion so no one, not even myself, can critically evaluate it", which I believe promotes uncritical, and perhaps even, lazier, thinking.

And plenty of lucha/cruiserweight matches in WCW were little more than spotfests, with luchadores who were incredibly young and new to the business. It's a fact that WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion.

All right, just to clear up any misunderstandings, here's my top ten WCW cruiserweights list:

1. La Parka
2. Chris Jericho
3. Dean Malenko
4. Eddie Guerrero
5. Ultimo Dragon
6. Rey Mysterio
7. Chavo Guerrero
8. Juventud Guerrera
9. Psicosis
10. Billy Kidman

Why did you rank Chavo Guerrero above Juventud Guerera? I can sort of understand the argument for Psicosis and Billy Kidman, But Juventud? Really?

[Teh_Showtime]

Jericho ruined Juvi for me. I didn't like him much after he lost his mask for some reason.

[ampulator]

Jericho ruined Juvi for me. I didn't like him much after he lost his mask for some reason.
Are you sure it was Jericho's idea? It was probably some bone-headed thing that WCW wanted to do.

But to be fair, Juventud seemed to enjoy, even relish, the opportunity to be nonmasked wrestler. There were several matches were there more cheers and pops for him over Eddie Guerrero. He's the only Luchador in WCW that seemed to do as good, sometimes better, without his mask. His only issue? Juventud is one crazy dude.

[BHK1978]

All right, just to clear up any misunderstandings, here's my top ten WCW cruiserweights list:

1. La Parka
2. Chris Jericho
3. Dean Malenko
4. Eddie Guerrero
5. Ultimo Dragon
6. Rey Mysterio
7. Chavo Guerrero
8. Juventud Guerrera
9. Psicosis
10. Billy Kidman

No Brian Pillman on that list? I mean I might have not liked the guy but he was one hell of a worker.

/nod. One man's trash is another man's treasure. This has been proven over and over again. I've said this before, but I do believe it to be true... I think when we talk about wrestler's, quite a bit of the time we are comparing their "stats" to game stats, something that doesn't really exist in the "real" world.

You can take any talent, find the things that work for them, and utilize them in such a way to get the best reactions, and people like The Warrior can become huge in the bussiness. I feel that most of wrestling just uses what the person brings to the table, and goes with that most of the time. In other words, I don't think everyone gets with the "creative" team, and goes over their qualities to figure out what might work better for them... although I'm sure some of them do (the one's already doing well more then likely).

I agree with this because it happens in not just wrestling but other sports as well. A prime example of this is Joe Torre, before he became the manager of the Yankees he was not considered a great manager. In fact, upon being hired as manager the New York press ripped Steinbrenner for hiring him.

Well he went onto to win four World Series in five years. He was put in the right situation with the right team that allowed him to shine.

In football you have Bill Belichick, who as coach of the Browns stunk up the joint. However, after he made the move to the Patriots he is now thought of as a genius on the level of Lombardi or Landry. He is still the same coach that sucked when he ran the Browns but because he was put in the right situation he was able to become a winner.

Look at wrestling, I often see the WWF talk about how stupid it was for WCW to give up on Steve Austin. That is total hindsight, because there was no way to know that Steve Austin would become one of the biggest stars (If not the biggest star.) in the history of wrestling at the time WCW fired him. Steve was at the right place at the right time for his character to flourish. If he would have come into the WWF as Stunning Steve Austin he could have very well ended up as a footnote.

[The Final Countdown]

Ooh, ooh, I wanna play!

My top 10 WCW Cruiserweights:

1. Chris Jericho (his promos as Cruiserweight champ cemented me as a Jerichoholic for life)
2. Rey Mysterio Jr.
3. Eddie Guerrero
4. Ultimo Dragon
5. Dean Malenko
6. Juventud Guerrera
7. Billy Kidman
8. Psychosis
9. Shane Helms
10. Chavo Guerrero Jr.

I wouldn't have expected Chavito to make my top 10, but he just barely slipped in. There are other guys who held the Cruiser title in WCW that I'd put above him. Lance Storm, in particular, would probably be 5th or 6th on my list, but I didn't include him because I don't really think of his Cruiserweight stuff when I think of Storm in WCW.

[ampulator]

I wouldn't have expected Chavito to make my top 10, but he just barely slipped in. There are other guys who held the Cruiser title in WCW that I'd put above him. Lance Storm, in particular, would probably be 5th or 6th on my list, but I didn't include him because I don't really think of his Cruiserweight stuff when I think of Storm in WCW.
Lance Storm would have been on that list, had he came in earlier and actually wrestled with more cruiserweights. He came in right around when Russo came in. I don't think I need to talk about Russo more than that..

But I would have put Jimmy Yang and/or Jamie Knoble over Chavo anyway.

[The Final Countdown]

Lance Storm would have been on that list, had he came in earlier and actually wrestled with more cruiserweights. He came in right around when Russo came in. I don't think I need to talk about Russo more than that..

But I would have put Jimmy Yang and/or Jamie Knoble over Chavo anyway.
Hmm...I didn't think of Knoble, but yeah, I might rank him over Chavo too. Though my high opinion of him has more to do with his run in ROH than anything else.

[ampulator]

Don't forget about Kaz Hayashi. That dude was awesome. Totally misused.

[Hashasheen]

The Luchadores might have been young but they were far from 'new to the business'. The fact is they had plenty of experience, likely far more than their American equivalent who had the same number of years in the business, due to the frequency of shows they run in Mexico. And yet a lot of them simply did not exhibit or show an understanding of storytelling or psychology in their matches that other luchadores did. Whether that was due to their greeness or some other factor such match-booking can be debated further. Though I'll grant you their issues were far less obvious than North American workers brought in, for the very reason you mention.

What's not a fact is is the claim that "WCW's cruiserweight division consistently employed larger numbers of younger and greener workers than any other division in the promotion". They had a few young and green guys in that division, but most of the young and green talent WCW used was in the heavyweight Division; does the name the Natural Born Thrillers mean anything to you? A bunch guys green as grass with barely any time in the business and not one of them competed in the Cruiserweight division.
1. The Thrillers were seven guys, Mike Sanders competed in the Cruiserweight Division, and Shawn Stasiak had been working for two years and had even been in the WWF with a relatively minor push.
2. I count the Jung Dragons (minus Hayashi), 3-Count, Air Raid, Elix Skipper, Blitzkrieg, James Storm, Chris Harris, Lash LeRoux (came in green as shit, came out much better), Alan Funk, Lodi and Lane, Sonny Siaki, and Sharkboy. Not to mention Ultimo Dragon's students who came in in 1998 for a few matches.

Heck, during their more belt-tightening days in the 90s, it was the Heavyweight division who got the cheap labour. Pretty sure most the Heavyweights and Tag Team jobbers were ex-AWA, SMW, ECW, WWF, WCCW, NWA veterans and a few from Puerto Rico. Guys like Destruction Crew, the Texas Hangmen/Disorderly Conduct, Greg Valentine, Mike Khoury, Todd Passmore, The Armstrongs, PG-13, Scott Norton, Barry Darsow, Rock and Roll'Express etc...

Besides those who came up from the Power Plant, a lot of the guys working for WCW were veterans on their last run cashing pay-checks.

No Brian Pillman on that list? I mean I might have not liked the guy but he was one hell of a worker. I find it very hard to think of him as a cruiserweight for some reason. I recognise him much better for his loose cannon/hollywood blond periods.


Why did you rank Chavo Guerrero above Juventud Guerera? I can sort of understand the argument for Psicosis and Billy Kidman, But Juventud? Really? My opinion of the Juice tends to go up and down. For the sake giving a stable list, I kept him where he was. At times, he tends to go above Rey.

[Fantabulous]

Are you sure it was Jericho's idea? It was probably some bone-headed thing that WCW wanted to do.

But to be fair, Juventud seemed to enjoy, even relish, the opportunity to be nonmasked wrestler. There were several matches were there more cheers and pops for him over Eddie Guerrero. He's the only Luchador in WCW that seemed to do as good, sometimes better, without his mask. His only issue? Juventud is one crazy dude.

It was WCW's idea and Juvi hated losing his mask, as did all of the Luchadores who had their masks taken off of them in WCW. He tried his best to not lose the mask but WCW, specifically Eric Bischoff, didn't think too highly of masked wrestlers and there was nothing he could do.

I forgot about Kidman, Hayashi and even Storm, so there are more guys who rank ahead of Chavo.

[ampulator]

It was WCW's idea and Juvi hated losing his mask, as did all of the Luchadores who had their masks taken off of them in WCW. He tried his best to not lose the mask but WCW, specifically Eric Bischoff, didn't think too highly of masked wrestlers and there was nothing he could do.

I forgot about Kidman, Hayashi and even Storm, so there are more guys who rank ahead of Chavo.
Thanks for correcting me. But to be honest, he seemed to do just as well without the mask on. In fact, he seemed like as good of, in a better, worker.

Here's the thing though, did La Parka ever lose his mask? I don't recall that he did, but it's unusual that they didn't go there. And you know, they said he was around 230ish, but he always looked like he was more 240ish to me.