The Official WWE Discussion Thread *May Contain Spoilers*

[Adam Ryland]

To help clean up the board a little, all WWE-related news items should be discussed in this thread. This will help cut down on the amount of very similar threads that pop up.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Thanks. Bit alienating to see all those threads about the state of WWE. Although I hope if we make threads concerning a certain subject in the 'E, we won't be redirected here...

[James Casey]

Over at EWB, there tends to be individual promotion threads while the major news (Shane/Linda quit, major signings/departures or injuries), so I guess that'd be how this'll work.

[mistaken]

Over at EWB, there tends to be individual promotion threads while the major news (Shane/Linda quit, major signings/departures or injuries), so I guess that'd be how this'll work.

from reading the one that got closed before Adam opened this I took it to mean all things WWE needed to happen in here.

[Johnny Fenoli]

could we get the WWE and TNA threads stickied? So that if they do happen to fall off the first page, then people wont make new threads...

[TravisL]

Actually...what about individual boards rather then threads? This will make it a bit difficult to find the topics you want.

[Tag01]

I don't watch much of the E; what's up with Punk on ECW? Is that the end of his push?

[TracyBrooksFan]

hype for survivor series since he is on orton team who also have regal on the team and christian and truth is on kofi's team

[Hyde Hill]

Did I just read that HHH pedigreed swaggle and they got a face reaction? WTF! Sheamus killing swaggle for uber heel heat just went out the door.

[XxFutureLegend112xX]

Partial Source: PWInsider

Mark and Jay Briscoe had an informal tryout at last night's WWE Smackdown/ECW tapings in Philadelphia.

Both men are under contract to ROH, but were given permission to do the tryout as when WWE extended the invitation.

Becky Bayless, who has worked for both ROH and SHIMMER, also had a tryout at last night's Smackdown/ECW tapings.

[The Celt]

Mark Cuban does RAW

Dec. 7, 2009: Mark Cuban
Instead of humoring the NBA Universe with his infinite antics and making authoritative basketball decisions for one night, Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban will spend time delegating responsibility to WWE Superstars when he hosts Raw on Dec. 7 from Dallas. - source: 411mania.com

MONKEYPOX WAS RIGHT.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Mark Cuban does RAW

Dec. 7, 2009: Mark Cuban
Instead of humoring the NBA Universe with his infinite antics and making authoritative basketball decisions for one night, Dallas Mavericks owner Mark Cuban will spend time delegating responsibility to WWE Superstars when he hosts Raw on Dec. 7 from Dallas. - source: 411mania.com

MONKEYPOX WAS RIGHT.


Vern Troyer is going to host also...

Should be intresting to see the interaction with him, big show and hornswoggle.

[SaySo]

I hope Vern Troyer doesn't give Hornswoggle a title shot.

[Johnny Fenoli]

I hope Vern Troyer doesn't give Hornswoggle a title shot.

oh you know he will.... Hornswoggle vs the new champ, and recently heel turned at Survivor Series... Shawn Michaels

:eek:

[alden]

You know, with all the dx swaggle stuff and with him hosting after the ppv I would be shocked if either shawn or hunter does not come out as champ and have to face him.

[Eisen-verse]

oh you know he will.... Hornswoggle vs the new champ, and recently heel turned at Survivor Series... Shawn Michaels

:eek:

I'd mark out like crazy if HBK were to come away with the belt.... but... In reality, the only DX member who could walk away with the title is Triple H. Sadly.

The again, maybe HBK wins the title... Hunter turns jelous... Attacks Shawn... And we have another HBK/HHH feud. Then again, that being said, I don't see this either as DX pulls in a lot of merch.... Especially this close to Christmas.

[Remianen]

I'd mark out like crazy if HBK were to come away with the belt.... but... In reality, the only DX member who could walk away with the title is Triple H. Sadly.

The again, maybe HBK wins the title... Hunter turns jelous... Attacks Shawn... And we have another HBK/HHH feud. Then again, that being said, I don't see this either as DX pulls in a lot of merch.... Especially this close to Christmas.

Hm, is it possible to build from Survivor Series a Wrestlemania matchup based around the falling out between HHH and HBK? I wonder....

Also, Ted Dibiase is due to be turned soon, considering The Marine 2 comes out before the end of the year ('a few days after Christmas, ****in' morons' is what I've heard from retail friends).

[Eisen-verse]

Hm, is it possible to build from Survivor Series a Wrestlemania matchup based around the falling out between HHH and HBK? I wonder....

Also, Ted Dibiase is due to be turned soon, considering The Marine 2 comes out before the end of the year ('a few days after Christmas, ****in' morons' is what I've heard from retail friends).

That'd be interesting to see the two face off at Wrestlemania. I know they've taking eachother on billions of times by now... but... that being said, I'd still mark out over it. ha.

Also, I must have missed something. Ted Dibiase is going to be in a WWE Movie? Didn't see that coming...

[SaySo]

Source: PWTorch


Former WWE champion "The Rock" Dwayne Johnson says he's working with WWE on creating a special TV episode that would be beyond just guest-hosting an episode of Raw. Johnson was vague on the details during a radio appearance this morning, but hinted he'll be working with WWE on a significant project.

"I love that world and being able to entertain, especially if I could go back whether it's on Smackdown and do a promo or guest-host or we could create this cool show, whatever that may be," Johnson said on the Jack Diamond Morning Show in Washington, D.C. "Especially now, I'm at the point where I can go back and give back to the fans and help out the guys in any way I can."

Johnson said he currently has a "great relationship" with Vince McMahon and WWE to where he's working closely with WWE on creating apparently a special episode of WWE TV.

"Right now we're trying to put together - there is always something cool and interesting for me to do. I would like to do something more than just host the show," Johnson said. "I'm in the process of creating something really cool for the fans - something very special and unique. It will be something like one big entertaining show."


I thought he wasn't suppose to go near that (wrestling). lol

[Self]

I thought he wasn't suppose to go near that (wrestling). lol

He wasn't... back when he was trying to create the image of himself being a serious actor. Apparently he feels he's accomplished that, so he feels safe to do a little wrasslin' for fun. Which is awesome news in my book. His promo he did on the 10th Anniversary of Smackdown was great. Wrestling would be lucky to have him back, even for a little while.

P.S. Just finished watching ECW. Still struggling to get used to the new ring announcer. I'm terrified she's going to mess up and embarrass herself every second... Really takes away from my glee at Zack Ryder's entrance music.

P.P.S Zack Ryder promo to kick off the show??? Woo Woo Woo. You know it!

[AfRoMaN36]

FINALLY.... The Rock HAS COME BACK....

Home.

I would mark out for anything this guys does at this point. You can count me in for the RAW he appears in and if my magic 8-ball is correct, I would totally mark over a Rock/Cena match at Mania.

[Remianen]

Also, I must have missed something. Ted Dibiase is going to be in a WWE Movie? Didn't see that coming...

It's been in the can for almost a year now. Orton was supposed to do it but that was around the time he was out with the collarbone injury that got Kennedy fired.

It's the sequel to Cena's first movie.

[Imarevenant]

Hm, is it possible to build from Survivor Series a Wrestlemania matchup based around the falling out between HHH and HBK? I wonder....

Also, Ted Dibiase is due to be turned soon, considering The Marine 2 comes out before the end of the year ('a few days after Christmas, ****in' morons' is what I've heard from retail friends).

Maybe they are banking on the post-christmas rush and hoping that kids use up their gift cards on it.

There are quite a few releases going that route btw. Jennifer's Body, Moon, and 9. In fact usually, the week after christmas has some unconventional dvd, and cd releases to try and capitalize on this. I'm not sure that is the case this year though.

Anyway,

I know last season the post-christmas rush really helped out the holliday retail figures and the purchase of gift cards saw a significant increase. Could be they were hoping the trend would continue.

[Remianen]

Maybe they are banking on the post-christmas rush and hoping that kids use up their gift cards on it.

There are quite a few releases going that route btw. Jennifer's Body, Moon, and 9. In fact usually, the week after christmas has some unconventional dvd, and cd releases to try and capitalize on this. I'm not sure that is the case this year though.

Anyway,

I know last season the post-christmas rush really helped out the holliday retail figures and the purchase of gift cards saw a significant increase. Could be they were hoping the trend would continue.

Yeah but this holiday season is expected to be soft. There aren't nearly as many 'must have' items (ala Beanie Babies, Tickle Me Elmo, Sing & Snore Ernie, new consoles, etc) this year. So (some) retailers are kinda pissed about people banking on post-Christmas activity when that's traditionally the time they cut prices to the quick to get (leftover) stuff out the door. If they released during the official holiday shopping season, the stores could run promotions to help move units. Post-Christmas, aint nobody tryin' to hear anything but '75% off' or BOGO in this economy. At least that's the perspective of some larger retailers. "Spokesmen are like politicians. It's their job to bend the truth and outright lie because the truth is ugly as my mother-in-law" (direct quote from the manager of a Best Buy).

[Purple Cowboy]

Erm, I realized I'm waaay off topic there. Apologies.

[Self]

Flicking through RAW (very dull night in the land of Self) and I love the narrow entranceway. Getting rid of the stage and having that tunnel makes it looks so different from the year-in year-out fare. Plus, the visual of the fans reaching down and coming oh-so-close to touching the wrestlers make them look more like stars than when they have to wander over to the crowd themselves. Still prefer the UFC way of entrances, but this is pretty cool.

Is... Is The Miz' catchphrase getting over? I don't watch RAW often, but are people actually chanting along with it on a weekly basis, because that's... AWESOME!

[pate]

I agree about the entrance way. I really hope they keep it, though I know there's no chance of that.

[James Casey]

Is... Is The Miz' catchphrase getting over? I don't watch RAW often, but are people actually chanting along with it on a weekly basis, because that's... AWESOME!

The MSG fans were the hottest I've heard for WWE in a long time. I know that money-wise it makes sense to hit the bigger venues, but having the occasional show from a smaller venue where all the fans can get right up to the wrestlers (comparatively) does make the whole thing seem more special.

But yeah - Miz has actually been getting over for a while now. It's amazing how quickly that can happen: Punk, Miz and Kofi all stepped up with just a few dedicated promos/segments in the last six months or so. Equally, though, you can see that Swagger had the chance and hasn't taken it yet - but whoever thought that ragging on Pat Patterson would get him over (even in Montreal) greatly overestimated Pat's value to the crowd that night.

[Hyde Hill]

I think you are confusing Swagger with Ziggler there Casey.

[Johnny Fenoli]

No one watching Survivor Series?

[jbergey_2005]

No one watching Survivor Series?

I didnt even realize that was tonight. Whats on the card?

[infinitywpi]

Watching. Don't think Batista got quite the reaction they were looking for.

[Johnny Fenoli]

I didnt even realize that was tonight. Whats on the card?

* Cena v. HBK v. HHH
* Undertaker v. Big Show v. Y2J
* Batista v. Mysterio
* Team Orton v. Team Kofi
* Team Miz v. Team Morrison
* Team McCool v. Team James


Watching. Don't think Batista got quite the reaction they were looking for.

lol, yeah... They wanted Rey destroyed...

[infinitywpi]

Well, they're in DC, according to R-Truth's cheap pop... DC loves them some home-grown Batista.

[Candyman]

Well, they're in DC, according to R-Truth's cheap pop... DC loves them some home-grown Batista.

Indeed. Plus, based on my limits Smackdown! viewings, it seems like Rey's been getting somewhat mixed reactions ever since his steroids bust.

They're really not messing around with Kofi's push, are they?

[infinitywpi]

No, they aren't. He's gone straight from "Feuding with a main eventer" to "Beats two former champions in six seconds." I'm calling it right now; Orton gets his hands on the title somehow, and we get Orton/Kofi for the title at Mania. And after tonight... I'd buy that.

EDIT: This is why we love Jericho.

Fan: "Go back to Toronto!"
Y2J: "I'm from Winnipeg, you idiot!"

[Candyman]

I could see Kofi winning the Royal Rumble. Considering a month ago he had just jobbed cleanly to The Miz and was viewed as the weak link on Team Raw, that's just ridiculous.

They didn't waste any time on that DX implosion, did they?

[jbergey_2005]

* Cena v. HBK v. HHH
* Undertaker v. Big Show v. Y2J
* Batista v. Mysterio
* Team Orton v. Team Kofi
* Team Miz v. Team Morrison
* Team McCool v. Team James




lol, yeah... They wanted Rey destroyed...

Thanks Johnny. I am surprised and happy Kofi gets his own team. I love that guys charisma.

[tristram]

Fan: "Go back to Toronto!"
Y2J: "I'm from Winnipeg, you idiot!"

Heh, I must profess man-lub for Jericho. Great wrestler, awesome entertainer. A great ability to steal shows with one liners that don't appear so droned out by scripting because he has great timing to deliver them as they're required.

[Woodsmeister]

I stayed up until 4am to watch Survivor Series and it has been the best PPV since Backlash, although Bragging Rights was okay.

Team Morrison vs. Team Miz was a good opener

Batista vs. Mysterio was short and told a story although like said above didnt get the reaction they wanted as Batista was cheered after desimating Rey at the end.

Team Orton vs. Team Kofi was very good was surprising as i was sure Orton would pounce with the RKO after Kofi pinned Punk but the transition from Roll Up to Trouble in Paradise was really cool and a good reaction for the win there :)

Undertaker vs. Big Show vs. Chris Jericho was good, i wanted Jericho to get the win but with so many title changes this year it would be nice to see them not change hands for a while.

Team McCool vs. Team James was decent for a Divas match only a few slight botches but better than most TV matches.

John Cena vs. Shawn Michaels vs. Triple H was awesome i really enjoyed it and was wondering if/when it happened i never saw it coming straight from the bell, Sweet Chin Music was awesome. some really good spots and reversals and again i wanted HBK to win the belt but again the titles need to be kept on someone for a decent amount of time.

Overall like i said earlier my favourite PPV since Backlash :)

[jbergey_2005]

Yeah its time for HBK to have the title one last time. Its been too long. HBK can play a tweener to perfection so it would create lots of great title matches.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Holy jilikers @ Sheamus.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Holy jilikers @ Sheamus.

Bigger Jilikers to this John Cena promo... I got goose bumps.... and I'm not really even a fan of his... but he's forcing me to turn to the darkside... :p

[sabataged]

Everyone knows there is no chance in hell for Sheamus to get a title run this early. It wuold be nice if he atleast got the Kane title run. I mean for god sake they gave it to Khali why Not Sheamus. I think some how Sheamus actually gets the win on the ppv. Cena demands his rematch the next night. Some one like Henry or MVP or whoever distracts Sheamus or costs him the match to give Cena the title back. This gives Sheamus a reason to abandon the fight for the title and go after whoever costs him the title and gives Cena the title back. It would be slightly more interesting then having Sheamus job to Cena.

[d_w_w]

Sheamus means "change the channel" in my household. Of all the new guys to push :(

[sabataged]

Sheamus means "change the channel" in my household. Of all the new guys to push :(

I thought the same thing. I don't mind Sheamus but he isn't exactly screaming Main Eventer here. I would of rather seen Miz or Swagger in this spot for sure. Hell i would of wrote Ted Dibiase in this spot.

Basically keep pushing the Marine 2 movie. So come time for the battle royal it is down to Kofi, Orton, and Dibiase. Orton is in the process of throwing Kofi out and Dibiase dumps both of them.

Next week on RAW orton confronts him and wants to challenge him for his #1 contender spot. Kofi interferes and costs Dibiase the match.

The following week we get Legacy vs DX match. Jerishow interferes and Dibiase gets the pin on HBK.

The week after that it is Legacy vs Cena/Kofi. Well Orton interferes costing Kofi the match and Dibiase gets the pin on the hottest wrestler in WWE Kofi Kingston.

The whole time they keep playing up the Marine 2 being better then the original Marine.

I could buy that as a sub main event to Batista vs Undertaker. Hell it would go on before DX vs Jerishow too. A card that features

Orton vs Kofi - No Holds Barred
Dibiase/Cena - Table Match
DX vs Jerishow - TLC
Undertaker vs Batista - Ladder

Isn't too bad in my eyes. Hell throw in some sort of US title scramble with Miz, Swagger, Bourne, and MVP. Then Punk vs Truth and Morrisson vs Ziggler its not too bad of a card.

[SaySo]

Sheamus next week needs to go to Cena father's house and send the WWE champ a message...Sheamus ->"I just Chuck Norris your father, Cena...at TLC, i'm going to Chuck Norris you."

[jbergey_2005]

Who is this Sheamus character? He needs a tan and why is he main eventing vs Cena?

[shamelessposer]

Undertaker vs Batista

Now those are two guys known for their high spots and innovative use of foreign objects. I, for one, am genuinely excited to see them in a match which plays to their strengths.

[SaySo]

Who is this Sheamus character? He needs a tan and why is he main eventing vs Cena?

He won a battle royal. He's a heel. Cena-vs-Sheamus isn't the main event of the card. He's new. And no matter what, smarks will find something negative about scenario. Despite that, he got a decent reaction from the crowd. But smarks don't understand that.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Well, close-minded smarks that is.

I mean yeah, there are those guys who won't let anything pass and want the booking as they see fit and will throw the "predictable!" moniker onto at least one match or angle per show, but I would think the sensed smarks for the most part are quite open-minded. Guess it depends on one's POV, in this day and age we're our own crowd, with many smarky diversified opinions and whatnot.

I'm far from being Sheamus' biggest fan but I do enjoy this because I wonder where this will go(and partly because I hate Miz/Swagger :p). And where this will take Sheamus. This being a completely fresh match-up, are they actually gonna do something with Cena, instead of the generic heel title challenger angle? Will Sheamus really benefit from it? Any other superstars will come into the fray(without being inserted into the title match that is)? Many questions, which can lead to interesting outcomes.

[sabataged]

Now those are two guys known for their high spots and innovative use of foreign objects. I, for one, am genuinely excited to see them in a match which plays to their strengths.

Not saying I like it but that's the way it is going.

[jbergey_2005]

He won a battle royal. He's a heel. Cena-vs-Sheamus isn't the main event of the card. He's new. And no matter what, smarks will find something negative about scenario. Despite that, he got a decent reaction from the crowd. But smarks don't understand that.

Well I guess I dont mind new matchups but there is just know way Sheamus beats Cena or even appears a threat to Cena. Id love some creative booking and see a big upset but it just wont happen therefore making this match non interesting to me.

On a side not hearing Jesse as the CC made me miss hearing him so much tonight. He is always making me laugh. "Why is Orton still outside, McMahon you need to hire some new refs" Them two together are priceless.

[jbergey_2005]

I'm far from being Sheamus' biggest fan but I do enjoy this because I wonder where this will go(and partly because I hate Miz/Swagger :p). And where this will take Sheamus. This being a completely fresh match-up, are they actually gonna do something with Cena, instead of the generic heel title challenger angle? Will Sheamus really benefit from it? Any other superstars will come into the fray(without being inserted into the title match that is)? Many questions, which can lead to interesting outcomes.

I think we both know the way the E books these days that nothing creative or exciting will come from this. Athough I have been impressed with the booking of Kofi lately. They need to keep this going while his momentum is hot. He brings a new character to the otherwise stale main event scene.

[The Celt]

How many wrestlers are there in the whole of Ireland? 25 Tops.

What are the odds that ANY wrestler will make it to the WWE?

Now what are the odds an Irish wrestler makes to the WWE?

Now what are the odds that that wrestler actually gets a push in the WWE?

That he becomes No one contender?

675 Billion to One

Last Night Ireland just offically won.


I'm of course have my mind blown by last night's RAW as an Irish guy. However reading the responses to it almost, almost dampened by mood. 90% of the smarks are crying out "Too soon, too soon!" about Sheamus when those same smarks cried out "We need new guys to be pushed" just last week. These are also the same smarks who applauded the way Desmond Wolfe was brought into TNA. God you're fickle. This whole month is totally turning me away from smarks/IWC. There's never any pleasing you.

I bet if I asked one of you smarks what was the last thing you marked out for at the time it was shown you have problems naming it. The only thing that seems to you marking is something where the WWE used sheer force of will and did something that got universally over such as Taker-Michaels. It's crazy.

I mean look at it this way: Kofi and Sheamus are both getting the push.

The IWC wants people who are pushed to be "built" over a time (as to how long there unsure). OK then.

Kofi is getting that "being built" push. It's happening over a month or two. Kofi is doing the stuff that IWC say should get him over, i.e. doing everything possible to get in Orton's face without doing the blowoff match. I seem to remember the 3 on 3 match being applauded for clever booking. This is the quick but not too quick "IWC" mention of pushing. Where previously he'd been a midcarder he now was suddenly be put against a Main Eventer and getting the advantage.

Sheamus is being considered "the too quick push". He "appeared out of nowhere" according to most of you. Well, true but not all that true. Sheamus has been in the WWE since July. He's feuded with Goldust (lower carder) and then Shelton (midcarder), winning both feuds. It was last month when he showed up on RAW and in the following weeks he killed both Noble and beloved commenter the King Jerry Lawler.

Both of these men where put into a one night tournament to decide a new number one contender (something that should be highly praised by the IWC considering, you know, this is what they've DEMANDED) . During this the much acclaimed Orton-Kofi feud which is designed to get Kofi over continued. To the WWE this is excalty what the IWC asked for, because they claim that a "built push" requires time to work.

Meanwhile "Too quickly pushed" Sheamus took the big W, followed by nailing up THEE most over man in wrestling today, John Cena (and that's a fact).

And here's the punchline: Smarks are crying out that Kofi should have won the tournament.

How can smark ask the WWE to have Kofi win? You been asking for this guy to be built, not super-pushed, according to IWC! To have given Kofi the win would have flawed your own logic, it would have been too soon. He hasn't beaten Orton yet, you surely don't believe that should just be skipped over right?


But that's not the only punchline: If Sheamus had done what he's already done but over say 7 months instead of six you'd be cheering this. If Sheamus had had just one feud on RAW against a midcarder you'd be calling his push perfect, or at least you should if you counted ECW towards his career.

The bottom line is: Sheamus has actually been far more active in the WWE then Kofi in the last few months. Before this feud what was Orton doing? NOTHING (That US reign was really just going though the motions). But suddenly he's put into an Orton feud that could make him. Suddenly he's gaining traction with the fans and you want to hotshot that??? Jesus please, take a look at your own logic.
Meanwhile Sheamus has had two solid feuds in his back pocket, one man retired due to him and a beloved announcer KO'd.

Both of them won their Survivor Series match and were the final survivor.

The Night Kofi destroyed Orton's Car: October 26
The Night Sheamus debuted on RAW: October 26

Ladies and Gentlemen: Kofi and Sheamus have had the exalt same push. It's almost a mirror image. Now stop complaining, because you're getting the new blood you've been demanding for months.



Whoo, didn't know that was in me :P

[Tha Black Phenom]

Ehh, I agree with you on the overall post and the gist of your logic, but there's still some things in there I can't nod. Proclaiming Sheamus' past as two 'solid' feuds... maybe so, but they were easily forgettable tbh. Compared to a US title reign - yes, very monotone but Kofi was still fairly showcased, defending his title quite a lot building up his overness a tad, he was one of those midcarders ready to take the next step. Sheamus never had that, but I'm not one to shoot down this instant push of his. I like it, and I wanna see where it goes.

I honestly think this is all circumstantial. There's literally no one credible on the Raw roster to face Cena right now except DX.. or Randy Orton, who've faced 78 times and is now in the process of making Kingston. So while picking Kofi over Sheamus seems a bit hypocritical as you've said, there's no doubt the Raw booking... and the smarks' minds were backed into a corner here.

BUT, I figured smarks would be more open to this since it's not exactly like it's the first time it's happened. The Lesnar effect is lost on people I guess. And heck, even in recent memory Vladimir Kozlov got a megapush towards the World title, but too bad he fizzled out. You're right, some smarks are the ficklest it's astonishing. Not just about this, about everything. They label almost everything predictable... which annoys me, "predictable" is not to be confused with "logical booking". And if the booking was illogical, they'd complain anyway. :(

tl;dr I agree with you, all circumstances, go Sheamus, etc.

[The Two]

What The Celt said.


I'm just amazed at the idea of a Raw main event featuring only one of the ubiquitous trio of Cena, Orton and Hunter. Seriously, when was the last time a Raw main event didn't feature at least two of those guys?

It's a new guy main eventing a PPV for the first time. This can only be a good thing, and something we should all be happy about. Still not gonna watch it, but it opens the door for real change, especially as Kofi also seems to be on his way to the top.

It's weird, seems like in the last couple of months something has lit a fire under Vince's ass and made him realise he needs to up his game and build new stars... Hmmm... :cool:

[SaySo]

The era of Sheamus begins. If they could make Umaga relevant as the Samoan Bulldozer, they won't have any problem with the Celtic Warrior.

If you follow the WWE through the eyes of the smarks, there are no doubts you'll hate the product just as much as they do.

Imagine if the IWC was around during the time UnderTaker debuted, i bet they would say the same things about him that they say about any big guy today.

Sheamus -vs- Cena won't be the final match at TLC....i bet DX -vs- JeriShow TLC for the Unified tag titles will be headlining. Then there is Taker -vs- Batista. IWC trying to say "Sheamus-vs-Cena, who's going to buy that...geeSus.?

[Tha Black Phenom]

Aye, there's so many iconic things which happened in the past the IWC would be bashful against. My main example is always Vince McMahon winning the Royal Rumble, or Austin winning it a third time. "Could you believe that crap!?" :p

[jbergey_2005]

No offense to Sheamus fans but what about him is appealing to a wrestling fan? Hes not a destructive giant, hes not charasmatic, I am unsure of his wrestling ability because I havent seen much of it.


Yeah surprising is good but Id never heard of the guy before last night and now he is fighting Cena for the title. That part alone doesnt bother me but the fact that he doesnt even appear a threat is what does bother me. What happened to the old style booking where Cena is fighting a match and a guy like Sheamus comes out and destroys him sending him to the hospital. Setting up a grudge match for the title.

Instead we get a match in which we all know the outcome. No chance in ---- McMahon puts this guy over one of his biggest stars right now.

I did get a kick out of Jesse Ventura saying he needed a tan though.

And Kofi is going to be a big star. He is getting the push Shelton deserved.

[jjohns44]

I like Sheamus and was glad for his win. I didn't think Kofi or Randy was going to win either. When Randy won I was like 'ok, Randy's gonna eliminate Kofi or vice versa and the one who got eliminated is gonna jump in and get them eliminated' cuz they've been pushing the Kofi/Orton feud too much to get either involved in a title match. It didn't happen exactly as I predicted, but neither won the battle royale.

I think these gimmick match pay per views with the title of the pay per views referencing to the gimmicks are horrible though. WWE trying to be TNA now, that's taking a huge leap back there, Vince. What the heck happened to Armageddon, Unforgiven and there was no Cyber Sunday(I dont think there's been a cyber sunday in a while though)

[CQI13]

Cyber Sunday was an atrocity (as was Taboo Tuesday before it)...Yeah, let's make it kinda/sorta/maybe a little interactive. What a sham. Haven't much followed it lately, but I'm glad to hear that new people are getting pushed. And as stated earlier, Sheamus was getting a push, just on ECW.

[d_w_w]

No offense to Sheamus fans but what about him is appealing to a wrestling fan? Hes not a destructive giant, hes not charasmatic, I am unsure of his wrestling ability because I havent seen much of it.


/nod

I don't really follow the whole "smark" discussion line, as, at this point in my lfie, I only watch wrestling sporadically (that is, I watch wrestling when my fiance runes late from work - otherwise, we watch House & and then a DVR'ed Heroes)... so, I've seen maybe 3 raws in the last 2 months.

Having said that, I've seen Sheamus only a few times now (last night being one of them). Frankly, he's boring (to me). And totally unimpressive (to me).

Personally, I'd rather see them push Swagger. But, to each his own.

[sebsplex]

Having said that, I've seen Sheamus only a few times now (last night being one of them). Frankly, he's boring (to me). And totally unimpressive (to me).

I'm equally lacking in exposure to Sheamus (since I rarely watch any WWE programming for more than 10 mins or so at a time). I did catch what (I think) was his RAW debut recently when he 'injured' Jamie Noble. Perhaps judging him now is a bit harsh, but eh, I'm not surprised the WWE are pushing him as he ticks all their usual boxes. He seemed to lack real intensity and his repetoire (what I saw of it) was fairlyforgettable and frankly did nothing to really interest or excite me to want more... much like on the occasions I'd catch a bit of him on ECW (although matches against Golddust are only going to be so good). I must admit though, I find his pasty skinned Irish-ness quite cool. Outside of that... pass. I just don't see anything outstanding yet. Maybe he can take the push and run with it.

[SaySo]

People will find something boring especially when it is coming from a company that they are already disinterested to begin with.

[lazorbeak]

I am going to address three smarky posts for the price of one!

Well I guess I dont mind new matchups but there is just know way Sheamus beats Cena or even appears a threat to Cena. Id love some creative booking and see a big upset but it just wont happen therefore making this match non interesting to me.

No way he appears a threat to Cena? You know, he just powerslammed him through a table? He eliminated nearly all of Raw's midcard babyfaces to get this shot. He got pretty massive heat for destroying Noble. Also he's physically significantly bigger than Cena. But no, he's not a threat. Did you whine this much when Cena and Umaga had an amazing pay per view match a couple of years ago?

I think we both know the way the E books these days that nothing creative or exciting will come from this. Athough I have been impressed with the booking of Kofi lately. They need to keep this going while his momentum is hot. He brings a new character to the otherwise stale main event scene.

I think we all know that nothing creative or exciting will come from a PPV that features never-before seen match-ups between established stars (Cena, Orton) and up-and-comers (Kofi, Sheamus). One of the generic bellyaches of the past few years has been "no new stars," but the second WWE actually attempts to do that you've got smarks who have played too many wrestling games whining about card position.

No offense to Sheamus fans but what about him is appealing to a wrestling fan? Hes not a destructive giant, hes not charasmatic, I am unsure of his wrestling ability because I havent seen much of it.

What was appealing about Test? He was just a big, athletic guy, right? Beyond which Sheamus has a better look (Test was a Canadian with long blonde hair on a roster full of Canadians with long blonde hair). Also you admit you've never seen him before but you can make these (stupid) claims that he's not a destructive giant or not "charasmatic." Maybe if you actually withhold judgment long enough for the freaking story to build you'd understand why people that know something about the business are high on the guy.

Yeah surprising is good but Id never heard of the guy before last night and now he is fighting Cena for the title. That part alone doesnt bother me but the fact that he doesnt even appear a threat is what does bother me. What happened to the old style booking where Cena is fighting a match and a guy like Sheamus comes out and destroys him sending him to the hospital. Setting up a grudge match for the title.

Why should he get a title shot without earning one? Sheamus DID earn one: He won a qualifying match and then a battle royale that featured Orton and Kofi. The fact that despite that and the fact that he is significantly bigger than Cena you keep saying he's "not a threat" tells me you're not watching as a fan but as a smark. I mean, duh, Cena's not losing the title, but so what? A solid match could have Sheamus on the fast-track to actually being ready for the title. Remember when Cena got a shot at Lesnar, or JBL's first match with Guerrero? Neither of those guys had ANY business getting title shots, but they looked good enough that eventually both ended up being champions.

[CQI13]

And thank goodness for that. I thoroughly enjoyed JBL's reign. And as a fan, I remember wanting/hoping Cena would beat Lesnar at Backlash (that's when it happened right?)

[jbergey_2005]

I am going to address three smarky posts for the price of one!



No way he appears a threat to Cena? You know, he just powerslammed him through a table? He eliminated nearly all of Raw's midcard babyfaces to get this shot. He got pretty massive heat for destroying Noble. Also he's physically significantly bigger than Cena. But no, he's not a threat. Did you whine this much when Cena and Umaga had an amazing pay per view match a couple of years ago?



I think we all know that nothing creative or exciting will come from a PPV that features never-before seen match-ups between established stars (Cena, Orton) and up-and-comers (Kofi, Sheamus). One of the generic bellyaches of the past few years has been "no new stars," but the second WWE actually attempts to do that you've got smarks who have played too many wrestling games whining about card position.



What was appealing about Test? He was just a big, athletic guy, right? Beyond which Sheamus has a better look (Test was a Canadian with long blonde hair on a roster full of Canadians with long blonde hair). Also you admit you've never seen him before but you can make these (stupid) claims that he's not a destructive giant or not "charasmatic." Maybe if you actually withhold judgment long enough for the freaking story to build you'd understand why people that know something about the business are high on the guy.



Why should he get a title shot without earning one? Sheamus DID earn one: He won a qualifying match and then a battle royale that featured Orton and Kofi. The fact that despite that and the fact that he is significantly bigger than Cena you keep saying he's "not a threat" tells me you're not watching as a fan but as a smark. I mean, duh, Cena's not losing the title, but so what? A solid match could have Sheamus on the fast-track to actually being ready for the title. Remember when Cena got a shot at Lesnar, or JBL's first match with Guerrero? Neither of those guys had ANY business getting title shots, but they looked good enough that eventually both ended up being champions.

I loved the Umaga/Cena match. Umaga had been built up for almost a year and had beat everyone is his way. Probably one of the last great matches I have seen.

He eliminated all the midcard faces huh? Seemed to me he sat in the corner most of the match and flipped Kofi over the rope as Orton was being eliminated. Not really the most decisive win for a supposed threat. Umaga would come in a throw people around and he looked like an animal.

Phsically bigger than Cena? WTF are you lookin at? Cena is a brick wall compared to this guy. Cena is 260 pounds of muscle while this guy is 3-4 inches taller 15 pounds heavier and not nearly as built.

FYI I could care less about card position. They have 2 guys ready to face Cena that would make a much better match IMO.(Jack Swagger and Ted DiBiase)

What makes you think the "business" is so high on this guy? Do you have inside knowledge or something? I am fairly certain they know this guy is just like "The Mighty Hercules" so they need to push him before the fans hate him.

Yeah, he earned a title shot by beating no one of any name value. Are you saying he got over Orton or Kofi in that match? There was a reason they did the "battle royal" thing you know, so he didnt have to get over anyone important.

Its just stupid booking. If you want to try and force a guy like Sheamus atleast give him something to make it appear he could beat Cena. Perhaps an ally or a descructive weapon or some illegal move. Pretty sure hes not going to get over Cena by winning straight up.

Its like trying to have a movie ending in which the guy gets the girl with the only set up being a first date. Doesnt really make for an interesting drama packed movie I wouldnt think.

As for the smark remarks I dont think that is me considering the only wrestling I watch is the E. I am a fan of old school wrestling and many of my opinions are based on that time of wrestling that I miss. Get Shaemus an evil manager and youd see me mark out:)

[d_w_w]

nothing.

[infinitywpi]

So... am I the only one who's noticed this?

A heel champion holds the title until losing it to a mega-over face, and then goes on to feud with an up-and-coming young African-American superstar. Meanwhile, the title goes on to be defended in a triple-threat match against both members of a dominant tag team. The champ retains, only to find his next contender is a large, heavily-muscled man who recently arrived on his brand.

... is it just a coincidence, or are the Raw/Smackdown writers -really- that lazy? Or is this being done intentionally?

[jbergey_2005]

So... am I the only one who's noticed this?

A heel champion holds the title until losing it to a mega-over face, and then goes on to feud with an up-and-coming young African-American superstar. Meanwhile, the title goes on to be defended in a triple-threat match against both members of a dominant tag team. The champ retains, only to find his next contender is a large, heavily-muscled man who recently arrived on his brand.

... is it just a coincidence, or are the Raw/Smackdown writers -really- that lazy? Or is this being done intentionally?

It seems they are really lazy right now. Perhaps they are all on vaction prior to the Royal Rumble and Wrestlemania.

I like when they mix it up but they need to build the story. They have their stars built so far ahead of everyone else any story is going to be hard to get people to buy into, in their defense.

[jbergey_2005]

nothing.

Aww, I liked what you had posted:)

[d_w_w]

Aww, I liked what you had posted:)

Glad you saw it.

Removed it to avoid provoking board drama, as these boards are generally better than that.

Just going to make it a point to ignore certain folks here, until they can present their opinions in a more civilized (read: less condescending/arrogant/demeaning) manner.

[lazorbeak]

He eliminated all the midcard faces huh? Seemed to me he sat in the corner most of the match and flipped Kofi over the rope as Orton was being eliminated. Not really the most decisive win for a supposed threat. Umaga would come in a throw people around and he looked like an animal.

Did you watch the match? He eliminated Mark Henry. He eliminated MVP. He eliminated R-Truth, and he eliminated Kofi. The only people he didn't toss were Legacy and Orton. How that makes him "not a threat" is one of those mysteries that only you know the answer to.

Phsically bigger than Cena? WTF are you lookin at? Cena is a brick wall compared to this guy. Cena is 260 pounds of muscle while this guy is 3-4 inches taller 15 pounds heavier and not nearly as built.

See, when I say physically bigger, what I mean is, he is larger. Physically. Which he is. By a pretty significant margin. That you would call Cena, who is BILLED at 240 pounds "260 pounds of muscle" tells me that you either don't pay much attention or might need a new prescription.


What makes you think the "business" is so high on this guy? Do you have inside knowledge or something? I am fairly certain they know this guy is just like "The Mighty Hercules" so they need to push him before the fans hate him.

Triple H is apparently a big fan of his backstage, and management has pushed and protected him since he debuted. You are fairly certain based on what, exactly? Your ten minutes watching somebody on one episode of a TV show? Seriously you apparently know nothing about the guy so perhaps you are significantly premature in assumptions? I'm not saying he's the second coming, but you're not even giving the guy a chance.

Yeah, he earned a title shot by beating no one of any name value. Are you saying he got over Orton or Kofi in that match? There was a reason they did the "battle royal" thing you know, so he didnt have to get over anyone important.

For being a fan of "old school wrestling," I'm just shocked that you could say something so dumb. Yes, he went over Orton. Yes, he went over Kofi. He freaking eliminated Kofi! This is how battle royale's have worked since the beginning of time!

Its just stupid booking. If you want to try and force a guy like Sheamus atleast give him something to make it appear he could beat Cena. Perhaps an ally or a descructive weapon or some illegal move. Pretty sure hes not going to get over Cena by winning straight up.

That's why he punked out Cena this week. It's why he will Punk out Cena AGAIN in the weeks to come. Again, this is just you jumping the gun and burying a program before it's even off the ground. Instead of whining about the only set-up being the first date and WWE doesn't do anything creative and other assorted whining, just watch the show and see how the story develops.

[jbergey_2005]

I love how you use the term "dumb" so freely. It really makes you come off great in your arguments which are really opinions.

I will expect an apology when Sheamus is out of the E within a year.


John Cena
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/j/john-cena.html 260 pounds, FYI the wrestling world will fabricate weights and nation of residence to evolve storylines in case you didnt know that. Mark Calloway isnt really from Death Valley, lol and Andre the Giant didnt really weight 550 pounds.

Sheamus
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/s/sheamus-oshaunessy.html 275 pounds

Also, you really need to watch more of the E before you call out people as being dumb. You apparently dont understand the E's booking pattern if you honestly think anyone will believe Shameus will beat Cena. If the fans dont believe a guy has a chance how is it a great match? Even you, a big Shameus mark said " I mean, duh, Cena's not losing the title, but so what?"

Pretty much says it all right there. No one, even you believe he has a chance to win so how exactly is that entertaining?

You dont have a guy sleepwalk through a battle royal of basically midcarders and expect people to accept him being shoved down their throats do you?

Why not have him come in and destroy Rey Mysterio, then attack Shawn Michaels, then Triple H. You then have a worthy contender. Better yet, have him send Cena to the hospital prior to the match already being made in an attack and make him look like one tough SOB. This beating on midcarders just seems weak and the contract signing attack is so unoriginal and it doesnt work anymore.

[djthefunkchris]

I recommend toning down the conversation a bit. No need for hostilities and name calling at.

My two cents on the subject are as follows... If you don't now the character, it is because you didn't watch ECW. ECW is where they seem to be "trying" people out, then bringing them in on Raw or Smackdown as soon as they think they are ready. That's how it looks to me.

If your not watching ECW, you really 'should', just as people complain about TNA that don't watch it, 'should' before speaking. Especially about people that they don't know anything about but a show or two.

I'm not even going to post my own personal thoughts about the guy, because it would probably be non-productive at this point of the conversation, perhaps later after we calm down a bit?

Anyways, all I'm asking is if you don't know about the character outside of Raw, please try to understand that RAW is not the reason he's where he is, but the result of what he's already done to get there (in the WWE, specifically ECW for this guy).

[Self]

It should be a fine midcard battle. Sure it's a title match, but if it goes on after DX vs JeriShow, Kofi vs Orton or whatever Undertaker is doing I'll eat my hat. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad WWE are mixing it up a bit.

Would I have picked Sheamus? No. I'm in the 'too soon' camp. I would have had him in a dominating feud on RAW first, to build him up some more, but I like his look and certainly don't begrudge him the spot.

[jbergey_2005]

Its really not that Chris. The fans of RAW dont know who he is and they are suppose to believe he can beat Cena?

Its how he is booked. Its really poor IMO. You have a supposed threat to Cena beat on some midcarders and expect us to believe that he is a real threat to Cena and his title. It just doesnt work for me.

The fact that I dont think he is charasmatic or looks really intimidating has a lot to do with how he was booked.

[djthefunkchris]

It should be a fine midcard battle. Sure it's a title match, but if it goes on after DX vs JeriShow, Kofi vs Orton or whatever Undertaker is doing I'll eat my hat. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad WWE are mixing it up a bit.

Would I have picked Sheamus? No. I'm in the 'too soon' camp. I would have had him in a dominating feud on RAW first, to build him up some more, but I like his look and certainly don't begrudge him the spot.

My only thought on that, is that he has done it. He has done the equivalent of going through the mid/low card, and is now going to be pushed into the main event. As I said, that's taking ECW's history along with Raw. I think WWE tend to look at all shows as equal time, just stepping stones for some, teaching area's for other's. ECW is a place where people like Henry, Finlay and others can go to "make" up and comer's. He was "made" on ECW. He's being "pushed" on RAW from there.

IF he doesn't deliver, he could get washed away just as jbergey said though.

There is so many points that I agree with from everyone, on all sides of this debate. That's why I want it to come back down to rational conversation, as to have a discussion about it, rather then going another route, and argueing over people.

The good thing is, that if people are going to actually debate over him here, you can bet that hardcore fans are definately going on about him.

[lazorbeak]

Okay, I will take the bait.

I love how you use the term "dumb" so freely. It really makes you come of great in your arguments which are really opinions.

I used the word "dumb" once, in a situation where you argued that Sheamus didn't "go over" Kofi Kingston when he physically eliminated him from the ring and thus won the match. That's not using it 'freely.' I think there is practically judicial notice that that is an incredibly dumb thing to say. That is textbook "dumb." That is vintage "dumb."

I will expect an apology when Sheamus is out of the E within a year.

Seriously? 24 Hours ago you wrote this:

Who is this Sheamus character?

Yeah surprising is good but Id never heard of the guy before last night...

And now you think you have an opinion regarding this guy so strong that ANYBODY is going to owe you an apology? You're the one that can't seem to wrap their head around facts because you have some weird problem with some dude you've seen wrestle what, once?

See how I can use the facts of your previous post to show how little you know what you're talking about? Isn't this fun? :D


John Cena
http://www.onlineworldofwrestling.com/profiles/j/john-cena.html 260 pounds, FYI the wrestling world will fabricate weights and nation of residence to evolve storylines in case you didnt know that. Mark Calloway isnt really from Death Valley, lol and Andre the Giant didnt really weight 550 pounds.

Gee, thanks, mister. And um, out of curiosity, how many guys in the wrestling business say they weigh significantly less than they actually weigh? Do you have one documented case in the history of wrestling? Cena's billed at 6'1 which means he's probably a legit 6'? Weighing 240 pounds is a stretch. Weighing 260 pounds, he'd have to look something like this:

http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/pictures/j/johncena/06.jpg


Also, you really need to watch more of the E before you call out people as being dumb. You apparently dont understand the E's booking pattern if you honestly think anyone will believe Shameus will beat Cena. If the fans dont believe a guy has a chance how is it a great match? Even you, a big Shameus mark said " I mean, duh, Cena's not losing the title, but so what?"

I'm sorry, what? I'm not the guy who said "who is this guy?" I'm the one that needs to watch the product? I don't understand WWE's booking pattern? I'm the one that made comparisons to Umaga vs. Cena, a recent example that was extremely similar? WWE markets to marks. Kids who will see Cena get beaten up for the next few weeks and then wonder "gee I wonder if Cena can pull this one out?" And then they will be happy when he does.

Also, reading comp time: did I call YOU dumb? If you answered "yes," please re-read what I wrote.

Also, when did I say I was a big Sheamus mark? I guess burying him out of hand after having never heard of him was a big giveaway, eh? I think the jury is still out on the guy, but I think at worst he will be the next Test, because I don't have some irrational problem with the guy. Oh, and I watch the show often enough to know who he is and to have seen more than one of his matches.

Pretty much says it all right there. No one, even you believe he has a chance to win so how exactly is that entertaining?

Again, no one with any knowledge of the business realistically thought Umaga, a guy who never cut a single promo, was not a complete physical freak of nature (Khali's token title run), and had a finisher that was a running thumb was going to win the title. And his match with Cena was, by your own admission, a "great match." But jbergey, how can it be entertaining since EVERYBODY KNEW Cena was going to win?! It's wrestling.

Also, nice job avoiding everything I said about giving the storyline a chance.

[djthefunkchris]

Its really not that Chris. The fans of RAW dont know who he is and they are suppose to believe he can beat Cena?

Its how he is booked. Its really poor IMO. You have a supposed threat to Cena beat on some midcarders and expect us to believe that he is a real threat to Cena and his title. It just doesnt work for me.

The fact that I dont think he is charasmatic or looks really intimidating has a lot to do with how he was booked.

No, but the fans of WWE DO know who he is. Everyone knows that RAW is not a "show" with a roster in and by itself, because all the other shows are "hyped" on each show. RAW always has commercials about ECW, so people that only watch RAW do KNOW who he is. They have seen the footage.

I think sometimes we think of ECW as a "B" show, when it's really not. There are three main brands for WWE, and ECW is one of them. Superstars is a "B" show, in my opinion. We gear ourselves around a game, that will only act a certain way in it's design, to simulate the things "realistically" we have to go beyond what it is, and make it something it's not (Like making ECW part of another brand, instead of a brand on it's own). The game doesn't take into effect that ECW only has one hour, where-as the other two shows have two hours, when making a roster, so this is necessary for "simulation" reasons.

I think "our" knowledge gets in the way of how the brands are supposed to look to the average fan.

[lazorbeak]

I recommend toning down the conversation a bit. No need for hostilities and name calling at.

I'm not even going to post my own personal thoughts about the guy, because it would probably be non-productive at this point of the conversation, perhaps later after we calm down a bit?

Anyways, all I'm asking is if you don't know about the character outside of Raw, please try to understand that RAW is not the reason he's where he is, but the result of what he's already done to get there (in the WWE, specifically ECW for this guy).

I am sorry if I am coming off antagonistic but I can't believe I'm in an argument with someone who had never heard of the guy and posts about how they don't understand how "anyone" could find a wrestler entertaining. God, debating how much smaller Cena is after I said he was physically smaller than Sheamus? How is that anything but a waste of time?

While I used the word "dumb," I directed it towards a statement, not a person. And the statement, that Sheamus didn't go over Kofi, when Sheamus eliminated Kofi to win the match, was pretty dumb. But I'm not calling anybody names, and I'm only being hostile to someone that seems bound and determined to argue with me over niggling details to the total exclusion of any point I might try to make.

It should be a fine midcard battle. Sure it's a title match, but if it goes on after DX vs JeriShow, Kofi vs Orton or whatever Undertaker is doing I'll eat my hat. And there's nothing wrong with that. I'm glad WWE are mixing it up a bit.

Exactly, Self. The same way that Cena/Umaga took a backseat to the Royal Rumble storyline between Undertaker and HBK.

[jbergey_2005]

I posted the website Cena is 6 3'. He is billed smaller because he plays the never quit underdog role.

By your example of going over is this getting over another wrestler than as well.

-Undertaker is destroying Jericho in the ring, Big Show comes out and nails Undertaker 32 times with a chair. Jericho falls on top of him for the pin. Is that Jericho getting over or Undertaker?

I dont have a wierd problem with Sheamus. Ive just seen guys like him come and go especially when they are shoved down peoples throats. Its not like his profile has a shining light on it saying "future superstar" I looked at his match history and how he was pushed. It didnt look to me like he was getting over particularly great in the smaller organizations.

Correct, you did point out Umaga vs Cena but it was not similiar IMO. Umaga had been undefeated for 8 months prior to the match and had dominated some big names by the time the match was set. I believed Cena could lose and that is why I purchased that PPV and watched it.

What do you mean give the storyline a chance? I doubt Im going to send protest letters to McMahon telling him Sheamus sucks. Im just saying that this is headed down a bad path that has been followed many times and never really strikes gold with the fans. Overpushing a guy before hes ready.

[jbergey_2005]

I am sorry if I am coming off antagonistic but I can't believe I'm in an argument with someone who had never heard of the guy and posts about how they don't understand how "anyone" could find a wrestler entertaining. God, debating how much smaller Cena is after I said he was physically smaller than Sheamus? How is that anything but a waste of time?

While I used the word "dumb," I directed it towards a statement, not a person. And the statement, that Sheamus didn't go over Kofi, when Sheamus eliminated Kofi to win the match, was pretty dumb. But I'm not calling anybody names, and I'm only being hostile to someone that seems bound and determined to argue with me over niggling details to the total exclusion of any point I might try to make.



Exactly, Self. The same way that Cena/Umaga took a backseat to the Royal Rumble storyline between Undertaker and HBK.

Please cite this?

You really need to read all the posts leading up to a discussion before you make assumptions. I was basically critical of the booking in which I asked a question about what his fans see in him.

[lazorbeak]

By your example of going over is this getting over another wrestler than as well.

-Undertaker is destroying Jericho in the ring, Big Show comes out and nails Undertaker 32 times with a chair. Jericho falls on top of him for the pin. Is that Big Show getting over or Jericho?

How is that like my example? Again, Sheamus booted Kofi over the top rope. No heel chicanery, no Orton interference, no crooked referees, no mass conspiracy, nothing. Sheamus is the one that slammed Cena afterwards, too, to start a feud.


What do you mean give the storyline a chance? I doubt Im going to send protest letters to McMahon telling him Sheamus sucks. Im just saying that this is headed down a bad path that has been followed many times and never really strikes gold with the fans. Overpushing a guy before hes ready.

I mean stop complaining about some guy because you don't see him as a next world champ based on one appearance and give the storyline a chance. Maybe you don't buy him as champ now but if the storyline is successful maybe you will down the line. I didn't buy JBL as champ when he beat Eddie but eventually he convinced me he belonged.

[jbergey_2005]

No, but the fans of WWE DO know who he is. Everyone knows that RAW is not a "show" with a roster in and by itself, because all the other shows are "hyped" on each show. RAW always has commercials about ECW, so people that only watch RAW do KNOW who he is. They have seen the footage.

I think sometimes we think of ECW as a "B" show, when it's really not. There are three main brands for WWE, and ECW is one of them. Superstars is a "B" show, in my opinion. We gear ourselves around a game, that will only act a certain way in it's design, to simulate the things "realistically" we have to go beyond what it is, and make it something it's not (Like making ECW part of another brand, instead of a brand on it's own). The game doesn't take into effect that ECW only has one hour, where-as the other two shows have two hours, when making a roster, so this is necessary for "simulation" reasons.

I think "our" knowledge gets in the way of how the brands are supposed to look to the average fan.

Fair enough Chris. I dont watch ECW so I guess I am lost as to how impressive he has looked in ECW. Raw needs to do more storyline recaps or something then for the people that dont watch ECW if they want to include that in their current storylines.

[djthefunkchris]

I posted the website Cena is 6 3'. He is billed smaller because he plays the never quit underdog role.

By your example of going over is this getting over another wrestler than as well.

-Undertaker is destroying Jericho in the ring, Big Show comes out and nails Undertaker 32 times with a chair. Jericho falls on top of him for the pin. Is that Big Show getting over or Jericho?

I dont have a wierd problem with Sheamus. Ive just seen guys like him come and go especially when they are shoved down peoples throats. Its not like his profile has a shining light on it saying "future superstar" I looked at his match history and how he was pushed. It didnt look to me like he was getting over particularly great in the smaller organizations.

Correct, you did point out Umaga vs Cena but it was not similiar IMO. Umaga had been undefeated for 8 months prior to the match and had dominated some big names by the time the match was set. I believed Cena could lose and that is why I purchased that PPV and watched it.

What do you mean give the storyline a chance? I doubt Im going to send protest letters to McMahon telling him Sheamus sucks. Im just saying that this is headed down a bad path that has been followed many times and never really strikes gold with the fans. Overpushing a guy before hes ready.

I believe it's to establish him into the upper/main card. Cena is going to have a semi-decent match no matter who they put him up against, he's just somehow able to pull that off. He's the perfect person to highlight Shamus, in my opinion, because everyone knows Cena is a "Class Act", even if you hate him. You know he'll job to anyone they ask him to, especially if it's to help out a "fellow wrestler" which is what Cena is about (I haven't found anything to doubt this). Putting him up against one of the other guys like MVP, or especially someone else they are trying to establish right now (Kofi), isn't doing anything but stalling one over the other. Putting him up against a "Main" guy, and more specifically, a Main Face, is what needs to happen (with his character).

To me it looks as if the WWE is trying to elevate as much people as possible, TO increase their over-all top end of the card. Legacy, MVP, Punk, Shamus, Kingston, Swagger, Miz, etc. These are all relatively NEW guys, and they are becoming household names in the wrestling world. Having them combat each other, while still being "made", to me is only going to "stall" the momentum. Having them face "legitimate" opposites... That's a good way to book it in my opinion. The storyline that goes with it will determine how succesfull it is, more then likely.

I'm not a fan of the Shamus character, I was more of a Kozlov/Swagger fan myself, but it's something new. It's very similar to the what Hogan's character was "supposed" to be, as well, so I'm curious as to where it goes.

All I'm saying is that there is alot of truth in making an opinion from one match, as opposed to actually checking someone out. There isn't a websight I've found that I 100% agree with, and there's nothing wrong with that. It's obvious that your opinion is being inspired by something else, which is why your getting so much slack about this.

I want to help you out here, but your making it difficult.

[Self]

I'm skim reading these posts, so forgive me if I've got the wrong end of the stick, but is someone suggesting that Sheamus should have decisivly beaten Kofi in that Battle Royale? That is a bad idea.

Kofi Kingston's push is far more important than Sheamus' right now. WWE need fresh, new, Main Event Babyface talent far more than they need a legitimate monster to feed to Cena. The Kofi/Orton feud is heating up nicely, but if Kofi is beaten by anyone, ANYONE, it could stall his momentum.

[jbergey_2005]

How is that like my example? Again, Sheamus booted Kofi over the top rope. No heel chicanery, no Orton interference, no crooked referees, no mass conspiracy, nothing. Sheamus is the one that slammed Cena afterwards, too, to start a feud.


My whole point on this was that he didnt look impressive over Orton or Kofi. He finished off a guy that was hanging on the ropes. Yes I know its a heel tactic but they certainly could have done more like have him beat on Kofi for awhile before Orton comes back and distracts Kofi before he throws him out. Anything really to make it look like he was on their level.

If he is playing some type of cheap manipulator gimmick I could understand the finish but they want to make him a monster. So they need to book him as a monster.

[lazorbeak]

If he is playing some type of cheap manipulator gimmick I could understand the finish but they want to make him a monster. So they need to book him as a monster.

Maybe he could manhandle the champion somehow? Nah fans will never buy it!

[djthefunkchris]

Fair enough Chris. I dont watch ECW so I guess I am lost as to how impressive he has looked in ECW. Raw needs to do more storyline recaps or something then for the people that dont watch ECW if they want to include that in their current storylines.

I think about it differently. IF your only watching RAW, what better way to get you to "know" this guy, then to throw him into a match with the most over guy on the roster (someone you definately know).

Thanks for your comment, by the way!

The fun thing is, we can agree on the Shamus character. I'm not a fan either ;)

I do want to point out though, that I think the booking in WWE is starting to rock. I like the idea of the "opposite" matchings. NEW Heel vs. OLD Face. OLD Heel vs NEW Face, etc. This is what is needed to elevate these guys, and I all the sudden see what 'could' have been the reasoning of alot of other things that took place before this started happening.

People like Orton are a bigger threat, more over then ever. Throwin' him up against a "newer" face like Kofi, actually gives Kofi a legitimate rise in the card. Same with Shamus and Cena. Cena (no matter what people want to admit) is probably more over now, then ever before. I don't know why though, I went from "FAN" to "boring" with him for some reason. I think it's because I want him to become something that's not happened (HEEL).

But I can see why the Legacy vs DX, and all the similar match-ups now, working into a bigger picture for the sake of all the newer people that haven't really had the chance to shine yet. People like Punk are legitimate threats now, and going up against someone new will actually elevate the new guy.

[djthefunkchris]

If he is playing some type of cheap manipulator gimmick I could understand the finish but they want to make him a monster. So they need to book him as a monster.

Maybe he could manhandle the champion somehow? Nah fans will never buy it!

I dont' really think he's being booked as a "MONSTER" threat, as much as just a big, overconfident, Irish: I love to fight/Finlay Type guy. He's not a Batista or Lashley type either... More like a "Heel" Hogan, in my eyes (with less entertainment skills, so far).

[jbergey_2005]

I dont' really think he's being booked as a "MONSTER" threat, as much as just a big, overconfident, Irish: I love to fight/Finlay Type guy. He's not a Batista or Lashley type either... More like a "Heel" Hogan, in my eyes (with less entertainment skills, so far).

Hmm. OK. Ill give that a chance but he needs a tan. It hurts my eyes watching him.lol

[dvdWarrior]

I think you guys might be putting too much thought into this.

Sheamus will have a pretty good match (by WWE standards) with John Cena, and then he'll be that much further up the proverbial food chain. Next time he gets a shot, it'll be that much more ... acceptable?

Doesn't seem like something ya'll really need to fight over.

:)

[jbergey_2005]

I think you guys might be putting too much thought into this.

Sheamus will have a pretty good match (by WWE standards) with John Cena, and then he'll be that much further up the proverbial food chain. Next time he gets a shot, it'll be that much more ... acceptable?

Doesn't seem like something ya'll really need to fight over.

:)

Yeah, good point. With all these PPVs it always seems like they are rushing storylines to the point they dont make sense. So this is probably how the have to book it with PPVs 3 weeks apart.

[djthefunkchris]

I think you guys might be putting too much thought into this.

Sheamus will have a pretty good match (by WWE standards) with John Cena, and then he'll be that much further up the proverbial food chain. Next time he gets a shot, it'll be that much more ... acceptable?

Doesn't seem like something ya'll really need to fight over.

:)

/nod.

The sooner they establish the card, the better for the storyline as well, which after every PPV seems to be the first thing that is established.

[djthefunkchris]

Hmm. OK. Ill give that a chance but he needs a tan. It hurts my eyes watching him.lol

Believe it or not.... THAT is a BIG part of his gimmick. That same statement (maybe not word for word) has been said so many times on ECW already, lol.

I'm willing to bet that HHH get's full use out of that before long.

[jbergey_2005]

Maybe he could manhandle the champion somehow? Nah fans will never buy it!

Creative booking does wonders for fans imaginations. Attacking the Champion after the match is set isnt really something new. Throw a twist in there so we have an original concept and we have a match fans might pay to see.

[tristram]

I was just saying in another thread, nothing these days can be an original concept. Story-telling basically evolves and elaborates the tropes we already know and love. It's like the old saying, sex sells, certain storyline tropes and arcs sell too, it's just a matter of how they're recycled to whether people buy their faux pas 'originality'.

Lads, feel free to kiss and make up at any time... Just not in front of me, k? :D

[sabataged]

Decemember PPVs in general have been weak cards because they are beginning the road to wrestlemania with royal rumble in a month

[jbergey_2005]

LOL

It was just a silly debate. I dont think anyone was really worked up atleast I wasnt. Thats what makes these forums fun is the difference of opinions.

I probably just have something against him because his skin is too white. Who knows.

[sabataged]

Creative booking does wonders for fans imaginations. Attacking the Champion after the match is set isnt really something new. Throw a twist in there so we have an original concept and we have a match fans might pay to see.

So who would you have had Cena face then?

[Self]

In my experience, the Irish don't tan well. Which is fine by me. Anything to break out of that generic 'Main Eventer' mould and be different is nothing but a good thing in my book.

Decemember PPVs in general have been weak cards because they are beginning the road to wrestlemania with royal rumble in a month

On a related note, I think I heard that after this coming PPV, they're going to have SEVEN weeks before Royal Rumble. That's a mighty long build.

[jbergey_2005]

So who would you have had Cena face then?

Swagger or DiBiase were two I had in mind. However, that quote you quoted was actually in reference to booking the Celtic Warrior in a creative way in this match against Cena.

[sabataged]

In my experience, the Irish don't tan well. Which is fine by me. Anything to break out of that generic 'Main Eventer' mould and be different is nothing but a good thing in my book.



On a related note, I think I heard that after this coming PPV, they're going to have SEVEN weeks before Royal Rumble. That's a mighty long build.

Ya they bumped Rumble back a week

[sabataged]

Swagger or DiBiase were two I had in mind. However, that quote you quoted was actually in reference to booking the Celtic Warrior in a creative way in this match against Cena.

Dibiase I had a storyline figured up for but Swagger is becoming the new MVP when it comes to everyone predicting his pushes then fails miserably.

[jbergey_2005]

Dibiase I had a storyline figured up for but Swagger is becoming the new MVP when it comes to everyone predicting his pushes then fails miserably.

What are your Wrestlemania predictions?

Im still hoping to see Cena vs Undertaker

Cena vs Undertaker
Orton vs DiBiase
Kofi Kingston vs HBK(Heel)

[sabataged]

What are your Wrestlemania predictions?

Im still hoping to see Cena vs Undertaker

Wrestlemania is hard as hell to book. I doubt they know their WM match ups.

[sabataged]

What are your Wrestlemania predictions?

Im still hoping to see Cena vs Undertaker

Cena vs Undertaker
Orton vs DiBiase
Kofi Kingston vs HBK(Heel)



I am going to say

Kofi winning the briefcase for MITB
Orton vs Dibiase
Cena vs Undertaker
HBK vs HHH
Jericho vs Edge (hopefully he is back)
CM Punk vs Christian (I think he is due to be moved off of ECW)
Batista vs Big Show maybe...I dunno honestly...maybe Show turns face during the Jerishow split.


I just am clue less on matches. Its hard to really guess that far away

[sabataged]

What are your Wrestlemania predictions?

Im still hoping to see Cena vs Undertaker

Cena vs Undertaker
Orton vs DiBiase
Kofi Kingston vs HBK(Heel)

Better yet...who is going to win the Royal Rumble

[jbergey_2005]

I am going to say

Kofi winning the briefcase for MITB
Orton vs Dibiase
Cena vs Undertaker
HBK vs HHH
Jericho vs Edge (hopefully he is back)
CM Punk vs Christian (I think he is due to be moved off of ECW)
Batista vs Big Show maybe...I dunno honestly...maybe Show turns face during the Jerishow split.


I just am clue less on matches. Its hard to really guess that far away

That is a strong card. Id be excited about everything except HBK/HHH round 15.

[jbergey_2005]

Better yet...who is going to win the Royal Rumble

How long is Edge out? Hed be my guess if he'll be back otherwise Im going to say Undertaker to set up the Cena/UT match.

You?

[sabataged]

That is a strong card. Id be excited about everything except HBK/HHH round 15.

Ya but its been awhile and they always deliver. A heel HBK would be a nice fresh spin on it but I don't see it happening.

[sabataged]

Jericho would be my choice. He has never won it. but I couldn't come up with a good fresh world title match for Jericho.

[jbergey_2005]

Jericho would be my choice. He has never won it. but I couldn't come up with a good fresh world title match for Jericho.

Yeah I dont like my selections on this much either. The UT/Cena might not happen this year as Im sure they'd want an epic storyline around it however with both of them holding belts and in seperate brands Im not seeing a good storyline.

Maybe DiBiase wins the Rumble the same night Orton beats Cena for the title at the Rumble and that is how they complete the DiBiase turn.

[sabataged]

Yeah I dont like my selections on this much either. The UT/Cena might not happen this year as Im sure they'd want an epic storyline around it however with both of them holding belts and in seperate brands Im not seeing a good storyline.

Maybe DiBiase wins the Rumble the same night Orton beats Cena for the title at the Rumble and that is how they complete the DiBiase turn.

I could see Kofi but not Dibiase. I just don't buy him as a face main event level guy.

Jericho vs Taker for the title would be good or Punk vs Cena would be nice. Their match on RAW was good. So how about

Jericho vs Taker
Cena vs Punk
HBK vs HHH
Orton vs Dibiase
Batista vs Big Show
Kofi winning MITB

[jbergey_2005]

I could see Kofi but not Dibiase. I just don't buy him as a face main event level guy.

Jericho vs Taker for the title would be good or Punk vs Cena would be nice. Their match on RAW was good. So how about

Jericho vs Taker
Cena vs Punk
HBK vs HHH
Orton vs Dibiase
Batista vs Big Show
Kofi winning MITB

So Punk winning the rumble? I like that choice. Im not as big on Jericho vs Undertaker for some reason. The pre WM promos would be great however I just dont think of Jericho as a threat to UT.

[sabataged]

So Punk winning the rumble? I like that choice. Im not as big on Jericho vs Undertaker for some reason. The pre WM promos would be great however I just dont think of Jericho as a threat to UT.

I don't see Jericho as much of a threat either as far as breaking the streak but the match would be fantastic.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Punk would be the perfect choice to win the Rumble in some way, there's many main-eventers he hasn't faced yet and he's already reached the top of the food chain in the past.

Kofi would be the perfect "upper-midcard-megapush" Rumble winner. It seems that role has been reclused to MITB wins though. They can def do it again, it's just a matter of when. Since Rey, the Rumble winners have all been established main-eventers.

And am I the only one who's slightly gutted about the fact they threw away a monumental match such as Jericho/Taker on SD? I'm the only one around which has that irking me a bit but I don't mind now. When there were those Jericho/Taker at SummerSlam rumors in the spring, I was ecstatic. But oh well, a feud between them would still be top-notch.

[djthefunkchris]

Taker going up against Jericho or Kane made sense with the "Tag" match going on.

I feel like they been trying NOT to put Big Show in a one on one with Taker for some reason, and that might be a way they go in the future?

[mistaken]

Shamus for winner of the rumble!

[The Shape]

Taker going up against Jericho or Kane made sense with the "Tag" match going on.

I feel like they been trying NOT to put Big Show in a one on one with Taker for some reason, and that might be a way they go in the future?

Or the way they went like a year ago xD

[Bippodrop]

Not to butt in, but any chance this thread and TNA can be stickied? Not a major annoyance, but definitely a PITA to find this thread as it floats around the listing....

[hainnemeBap]

Didnt see it, but from what I read, it was alright.

RAW last night was interesting. Good to see the Rock is back...and thank god. He pretty much saved the Diva Segment.

[Johnny Fenoli]

Who does Bret Hart mark for?

- From Peter Marin: This is an interview Bret Hart did and it mentions his thoughts of WWE's Melina would be REALLY appreciated if you posted this.

When asked about Melina Bret said the following ''I think Melina is... creative and imaginative, an innovator and she comes up with some great matches I love watching her wrestle... in a lot of ways I think she's the best wrestler in the world."

Here's the Interview link: http://www.ministryofslam.com/BretHart.mp3

He says it a little over halfway through the interview.

[masterded]

You know of all the matches announced so far I am really looking forward to Christian vs. Shelton. If given time I see it stealing the show. Though that may have something to do with me being high on Shelton starting with his Team Angle days. I see him as someone one match away from making it over the hump. All the WWE had to do to make the fans love him was 1 on 1 Ladder match with Jeff Hardy too bad that will never happen now.

[Wrestling Century]

Didnt see it, but from what I read, it was alright.

RAW last night was interesting. Good to see the Rock is back...and thank god. He pretty much saved the Diva Segment.

The Rock is back? He wasn't on RAW was he? I saw RAW and I didn't see him! And trust me, I would remember seeing The Great One return as I am a huge mark for him! :p

[lovestruck420]

The rock didn't return?................... WTF did I miss something???

[UkWrestleFan]

Really love what they're doing with Luke Gallows. He looks pretty bad ass.

[TeemuFoundation]

You missed The Rock? How? The main event between him and Kobashi was the selling point of the show. He was a bit rusty, but it was great to finally see him in the ring with Kobashi, as I never thought their paths would cross, ever.

[James Casey]

You know of all the matches announced so far I am really looking forward to Christian vs. Shelton. If given time I see it stealing the show. Though that may have something to do with me being high on Shelton starting with his Team Angle days. I see him as someone one match away from making it over the hump. All the WWE had to do to make the fans love him was 1 on 1 Ladder match with Jeff Hardy too bad that will never happen now.

Meh. It's the obligatory Shelton + ladders match. I expect the match itself to be great, but Shelton just seems to be completely unable to get any momentum in WWE. He's been there seven years, is a multi-time champion, and yet... Nothing. For whatever reason, he just doesn't seem to click.

[djthefunkchris]

I'm wondering what they might use for the name, when they drop ECW from the third brand? They want it to sound like it is... highlighting fresh new talent (or what they try to do anyways).

I don't know why I keep trying to think of what it might be, I can't think of anything but something to do with "Peeps", mainly because of Christian being on it. I'd like to see it get a good name. I can understand changing it from ECW for that reason as well, too far apart from the original, and really the words "Extreme" isn't part of the show.

[UkWrestleFan]

Just keep it as ECW - Evolutionary Championship Wrestling!

Really, I don't know what they'll do. Gotta be something snappy, though.

[Self]

I just watched ECW. Move over Zack Ryder, I have new favourite wrestlers. Trent Barreta and Caylen Croft. Don't get me wrong, the squash match sucked pretty hard, but there's something about their gimmick I love. The music was awesome. Constantly interupting Tiffany was great. The fist pound (with explosion!) was fantastic. Something about them gave me a very 'Edd Stone-y' vibe, and that works for me.

Ways to make them better!

1. Get matching gear.
2. Don't slap hands when tagging. Use the fist pound. Every. Single. Time.
3. Do offence. Beyond stomps and stuff. Kill jobbers.

P.S. I think they were called 'The Dudebusters' in FCW... THEY NEED THAT NAME! It's so lame it's awesome!

[Bigpapa42]

I just watched ECW. Move over Zack Ryder, I have new favourite wrestlers. Trent Barreta and Caylen Croft. Don't get me wrong, the squash match sucked pretty hard, but there's something about their gimmick I love. The music was awesome. Constantly interupting Tiffany was great. The fist pound (with explosion!) was fantastic. Something about them gave me a very 'Edd Stone-y' vibe, and that works for me.

Ways to make them better!

1. Get matching gear.
2. Don't slap hands when tagging. Use the fist pound. Every. Single. Time.
3. Do offence. Beyond stomps and stuff. Kill jobbers.

P.S. I think they were called 'The Dudebusters' in FCW... THEY NEED THAT NAME! It's so lame it's awesome!

Yeah, I really liked them in FCW. Been watching FCW since the summer and there are a few guys the WWE could do something with. These two are just fun.

[angeldelayette]

I'm wondering what they might use for the name, when they drop ECW from the third brand? They want it to sound like it is... highlighting fresh new talent (or what they try to do anyways).

I don't know why I keep trying to think of what it might be, I can't think of anything but something to do with "Peeps", mainly because of Christian being on it. I'd like to see it get a good name. I can understand changing it from ECW for that reason as well, too far apart from the original, and really the words "Extreme" isn't part of the show.

Maybe just call it 'NTI?' The New Talent Initiative?

[dvdWarrior]

They pulled "Superstars" from the good old days, maybe they could pull out another gem from the past. I'd recommend 'New Generation'. No, it wasn't the name of a show back then, but I think it would be appropriate.

[djthefunkchris]

They pulled "Superstars" from the good old days, maybe they could pull out another gem from the past. I'd recommend 'New Generation'. No, it wasn't the name of a show back then, but I think it would be appropriate.

WWE's.. Generation Next! I don't know, just sounded catchy after reading your post, lol.

[lovestruck420]

No fans of Tuesday Night Titans????

[djthefunkchris]

No fans of Tuesday Night Titans????

Actually, I like it, but it really doesn't do much for THAT brand. Perhaps Raw's, maybe even Smackdown. I do like it, more that I think about it the more I like it..

[jw_forever]

Livewire, anyone?

[MrCanada]

I vote Velocity! Bring back Josh Mathews & Ernest "The Cat" Miller!

[SaySo]

I vote Velocity! Bring back Josh Mathews & Ernest "The Cat" Miller!

I never got a chance to watch Velocity. Was it like ECW is now?

[MrCanada]

no. It was, in reality, a worthless show to the WWE. Which in turn made it the most entertaining to watch. Mainly because it usually featured at least 1 cruiserweight match in which the guys were allowed to "go" a bit more then if they were on the A shows (the most commonly cited example is a series of matches between Paul London & Akio, look them up on youtube. There are 4-6 matches).

Also the main events would typically just be two random midcarders working. A lot of people remember the Regal/Benoit matches (I think there were 2) where you can clearly tell they wernt working with too many constraints. I suggest just going on youtube and searching WWE Velocity and watching a hand ful of the matches.

some links:
Paul London vs. Akio:
2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X7OiCeKQ-_8
3) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urNinjYuzPw
4) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6PAvtLJuNg (a !0 MINUTE MATCH IN JAPAN! WWE used to have matches over 4 minutes)
5) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jplb2Flc8I4

Chris Benoit vs. William Regal:
Part 1) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnEiVOc4Oig
Part 2) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qoFeofK94s

Pirate Paul Burchill vs. Nunzio: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XJgkC7Fmas (funny how over Burchill was. Such a missed opportunity)

Paul London vs. Frankie Kazarian: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=joh-IE_GQR8

Juventud vs. Funaki: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bvJHTcKC5sQ

Kendrick vs. London vs. Noble vs. Kash: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUzFAXT8RTQ

[eayragt]

I used to love watching Veolcity - I remember getting home from work, slapping on the TV and seeing Kendrick & London (before they ever spent any real time on the main roster) vs Bryan Danielson and... someone else. Must have been... 6 or 7 years ago? You were always guaranteed one relly good wreslting match on the show, which was more than you were guaranteed sitting through 2 hours of one of their flagship shows back then.

Now, granted most WWE viewers, like it or not, would rather watch Cena vs Orton than London vs Akio (who had a storming match). but I don't fall in that group, and Velocity really ticked the boxes for me. Or at least that 1 match in the three did.

[Tweek It]

I just watched ECW. Move over Zack Ryder, I have new favourite wrestlers. Trent Barreta and Caylen Croft. Don't get me wrong, the squash match sucked pretty hard, but there's something about their gimmick I love. The music was awesome. Constantly interupting Tiffany was great. The fist pound (with explosion!) was fantastic. Something about them gave me a very 'Edd Stone-y' vibe, and that works for me.

Ways to make them better!

1. Get matching gear.
2. Don't slap hands when tagging. Use the fist pound. Every. Single. Time.
3. Do offence. Beyond stomps and stuff. Kill jobbers.

P.S. I think they were called 'The Dudebusters' in FCW... THEY NEED THAT NAME! It's so lame it's awesome!


I'm happy that Chris Cage (Caylen Croft) has finally gotten to WWE's main roster. This is his third development contract. I enjoyed Cage in OVW and DSW. I guess he has finally cleaned himself up to get to the roster and not get released.

[jjohns44]

man I want people to go back to hating Cena again. He would get booed out the wazoo a couple of years ago. And WTF they are STILL using WHAT every time some says something? I bet like 98% of those people in the arena don't even know where that came from. It happened like 8 years ago, GET OVER IT!

Next time I got to a live event that involves Cena talking I'm just gonna sit there and go WHAT everytime he talks. That's what I was doing while watching the show..

[DeadCeleb]

man I want people to go back to hating Cena again. He would get booed out the wazoo a couple of years ago. And WTF they are STILL using WHAT every time some says something? I bet like 98% of those people in the arena don't even know where that came from. It happened like 8 years ago, GET OVER IT!

Next time I got to a live event that involves Cena talking I'm just gonna sit there and go WHAT everytime he talks. That's what I was doing while watching the show..


so, you want people to get over saying what, yet you'll do it next time you're at a live event?

:rolleyes:

[Tag01]

The fist pound tag-in is the best idea ever.

[CQI13]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/otl/news/story?id=4724912

An interesting article in ESPN relating to wrestler deaths. Focuses mostly on brain trauma/concussions. Also mentions similar NFL cases.

[djthefunkchris]

man I want people to go back to hating Cena again. He would get booed out the wazoo a couple of years ago. And WTF they are STILL using WHAT every time some says something? I bet like 98% of those people in the arena don't even know where that came from. It happened like 8 years ago, GET OVER IT!

Next time I got to a live event that involves Cena talking I'm just gonna sit there and go WHAT everytime he talks. That's what I was doing while watching the show.. Actually, WWE fans have been around for a long time, and those that are too young to know about "What" were probably told by family member's that were.

Steve Austin, isn't exactly an unknown in Wrestling. I don't know about you, but asking for people to "forget" the "What" thing, to me is like asking for them to forget the "Whoo!" thing.

I don't understand why your upset that Cena isn't getting boo'd (although he still does depending on where they are)? He is probably starting to be one of the more respected wrestler's on WWE's roster, even by alot of the reviewer's who seemed to hate him three years ago. Some people just don't know when to quit. He's more then payed his dues, and he really could leave at any time to make movies. He might not be as successfull as the Rock if he did, but he sure does have the potential, as well as the popularity to get roles (outside of WWE films).

so, you want people to get over saying what, yet you'll do it next time you're at a live event?

:rolleyes:
I was thinking the same thing when I first read it, but sarcasm on top of sarcasm lose's some of the funny in it (especially if it wasn't funny in the first place). Then again, maybe he wasn't being sarcastic, how would I know? LOL

[PeterHilton]

To be fair, everything on Raw has been god awful boring and repetitive for almost two years.

Cena's still the biggest draw in the company and the storylines aren't his fault, but I honestly can't remember the last time I found his character entertaining.

[djthefunkchris]

To be fair, everything on Raw has been god awful boring and repetitive for almost two years.

Cena's still the biggest draw in the company and the storylines aren't his fault, but I honestly can't remember the last time I found his character entertaining.

The only way I think I will even like his character, is if he goes heel.

But yeah, I agree with you overall. Just the "What" doesn't seem like something that will ever go away, and the boo'ing of Cena actually does still go on (just I guess not during that one show).

[SaySo]

To be fair, everything on Raw has been god awful boring and repetitive for almost two years.

Cena's still the biggest draw in the company and the storylines aren't his fault, but I honestly can't remember the last time I found his character entertaining.

You know what's god awful and repetitive, hearing people complain about it. You think it would make folks find another thing to watch so they can forget about it.

[PeterHilton]

You know what's god awful and repetitive, hearing people complain about it. You think it would make folks find another thing to watch so they can forget about it.

Who says I watch Raw? I can usually catch the first ten minutes or so and decide whether to stay tuned in.

[SaySo]

Who says I watch Raw? I can usually catch the first ten minutes or so and decide whether to stay tuned in.

Why even devote 10 minutes when you already know what is coming. It's a waste of 10 minutes. It's better to find something else. It's repetitive, god awful...but you already know that. So stop giving them ratings.

[PeterHilton]

Why even devote 10 minutes when you already know what is coming. It's a waste of 10 minutes. It's better to find something else. It's repetitive, god awful...but you already know that. So stop giving them ratings.

I don't have a Nielsen box attached to my TV. How am I giving them ratings?

I tune in because I like wrestling (still DVR SD), I want to like Raw, and usually not much is going on at 6 pm (i have DirecTV so I get the East Coast feed)

I give a try...if nothing about the show perks my interest I find something else to do.

The point I'm making is, I can go weeks at a time without watching an entire episode of Raw, and not miss a thing. That not entertaining imo.

[jbergey_2005]

SaySo says so you better listen Peter Hilton;)

[Astil]

I don't have a Nielsen box attached to my TV. How am I giving them ratings?

I tune in because I like wrestling (still DVR SD), I want to like Raw, and usually not much is going on at 6 pm (i have DirecTV so I get the East Coast feed)

I give a try...if nothing about the show perks my interest I find something else to do.

The point I'm making is, I can go weeks at a time without watching an entire episode of Raw, and not miss a thing. That not entertaining imo.

I agree with you on that last paragraph. To much repetitive booking, imho.

[d_w_w]

You know what's god awful and repetitive, hearing people complain about it. You think it would make folks find another thing to watch so they can forget about it.

:rolleyes:

Why even devote 10 minutes when you already know what is coming. It's a waste of 10 minutes. It's better to find something else. It's repetitive, god awful...but you already know that. So stop giving them ratings.

Heaven forbid someone gives 10 minutes of their time to the WWE in the hope that they'll enjoy wrestling again.

Heaven forbid that people express their dissatisfaction in a thread intended for discussion of the WWE.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[djthefunkchris]

Why even devote 10 minutes when you already know what is coming. It's a waste of 10 minutes. It's better to find something else. It's repetitive, god awful...but you already know that. So stop giving them ratings.

He said he found it repetitive. It doesn't mean he's saying that they are doing the same thing today they did 10 years ago, although in some ways they could be. Well, he clarified it anyways, he's talking about he can probably catch one show a month, and keep up with the whole thing without loss in storyline, etc.

I'm more into WWE then any other wrestling, and I can admit that this is true. I don't even watch RAW most of the time anyways, because my job conflicts (I work when RAW comes on). The few times I have been able to catch it, I have caught up without a problem.

I'd like to add though, that my favorite brand is ECW, not RAW (or Smackdown). RAW has been my least favorite of the brands for a while now. The show to me is always going to be the "Safe" show, meaning they will always stay within' certain limits on that show, as it's their "Primary" show.

[Self]

The only way I think I will even like his character, is if he goes heel.

Every time I hear people say this it just... In my mind, the definition of a 'Heel' is a character who is designed to be hated. His role, his job, is to be hated. So when people say that they'd only 'like' someone if they went heel (and I hear it a lot, about Cena, Batista, Undertaker, Triple H, once about Jeff Hardy) it grinds my gears.

Not that it's the fan's fault. Well, partly it is, smarks seem to gleefully prefer heels (Note to Self: conduct psychological survey about why that is) but mostly it's WWE's fault. Their babyfaces are so restricted and bland that the Heels shine ever so brightly. It's not even WWE's fault. Look at Hollywood action movies. The villains are always the most fun. The lack of morallity. The raging id. It's wish-fulfilment at it's finest.

As I'm in danger of answering my own question, I'll conclude. I maintain that John Cena shouldn't turn heel. He should twist sideways, find an interesting, fun new level to his character and stay babyface, but with a new edge.

P.S. Caylen Croft got new gear, but it inexplicably doesn't match Trent Baretta's. The mind boggles. The music still rules.

[djthefunkchris]

Every time I hear people say this it just... In my mind, the definition of a 'Heel' is a character who is designed to be hated. His role, his job, is to be hated. So when people say that they'd only 'like' someone if they went heel (and I hear it a lot, about Cena, Batista, Undertaker, Triple H, once about Jeff Hardy) it grinds my gears.

Not that it's the fan's fault. Well, partly it is, smarks seem to gleefully prefer heels (Note to Self: conduct psychological survey about why that is) but mostly it's WWE's fault. Their babyfaces are so restricted and bland that the Heels shine ever so brightly. It's not even WWE's fault. Look at Hollywood action movies. The villains are always the most fun. The lack of morallity. The raging id. It's wish-fulfilment at it's finest.

As I'm in danger of answering my own question, I'll conclude. I maintain that John Cena shouldn't turn heel. He should twist sideways, find an interesting, fun new level to his character and stay babyface, but with a new edge.

P.S. Caylen Croft got new gear, but it inexplicably doesn't match Trent Baretta's. The mind boggles. The music still rules.

/nod. The fact is, I need a totally different John Cena, heel is the fastest way to do that.

I think I would appreciate the character more if he had a chip on his shoulder... in this spot I had wrote probably close to two good paragraphs, and decided it can be said without so many words. I would book Cena as the Superman they have made him out to be. I'd have some kryptonite for him every now and then, but if he's not going to change sides, he needs to be seen as a "Face" threat, to anyone (heel or face), at all times, and shown to be intimidating to everyone at all times. IF Big Show or Jericho is out there bad talking him, and his music hits, they need to clear the ring ASAP and act as though they are not willing to confront him. People like Undertaker and possibly Kane should be the only one's that even act as though they think they have a chance (not in talking, but in Action).

IF not for the position they (WWE) put him in, I wouldn't feel this way. However, your going to make a Superman, you need to make a Superman and quit with the underdog crap, because that is boring and uninteresting (at least to me) at this point. He needs a change, period.

[MrCanada]

CHARLIE HAAS IS GOD!


WWE star Charlie Haas asked for his release from WWE several months ago. However, as opposed to granting that release, WWE actually re-signed Haas and gave him a raise, even though he hasn't been used on TV in a long while. The belief is that Kurt Angle had something in mind for Charlie Haas in TNA, and WWE wanted to avoid having him jump ship to the competition, so they re-signed him, gave him a raise, and are basically "benching him."

Courtesy of the Wrestlingobsever.com


Too good to let go, but too bad to get a push? Get a clue WWE.

Haas is the man, I still believe the Haas of Pain is the sickest looking submission of all time. I wish he would end up on ECW. He would be a great mentor. At least throw him down in FCW and teach new guys how to wrestle.

[thatoneguy]

I'm kind of curious and really hoping you guys can provide an answer for me. How is it that Cena is always "carryable" but never "good"? I mean, really? If he was only having good matches with Michaels and Taker I could understand the thought. But when he's having absolutely fantastic matches against Orton, Umaga, Edge, Punk, and putting out good matches against Show, HHH, and even pulling a decent match out of Khali. When does the IWC finally accept him as a legitimately talented performer?

[djthefunkchris]

I'm kind of curious and really hoping you guys can provide an answer for me. How is it that Cena is always "carryable" but never "good"? I mean, really? If he was only having good matches with Michaels and Taker I could understand the thought. But when he's having absolutely fantastic matches against Orton, Umaga, Edge, Punk, and putting out good matches against Show, HHH, and even pulling a decent match out of Khali. When does the IWC finally accept him as a legitimately talented performer?

The problem is they would have to admit to being wrong about him, so I doubt that will happen, at least not in the next five/ten years, lol.

I know alot of folks who would agree that Cena has actually done alot of "carrying" himself. For those that are better then him, he holds his own with them, and they get as much as they give ussually. SO really, it's up to his opponant if they want a "Good" match, or a "Great" match, because he seems always willing to do the best of his ability to make it happen.

To me, HBK vs Cena was a perfect example of two people really willing to make each other look the best they can possibly look, ending up with a match of the year on a normal show. Some argue that is because they had to fill in time, but good lord, look what they did with that "filler"!

[PeterHilton]

I'm kind of curious and really hoping you guys can provide an answer for me. How is it that Cena is always "carryable" but never "good"? I mean, really? If he was only having good matches with Michaels and Taker I could understand the thought. But when he's having absolutely fantastic matches against Orton, Umaga, Edge, Punk, and putting out good matches against Show, HHH, and even pulling a decent match out of Khali. When does the IWC finally accept him as a legitimately talented performer?

You're asking a lot of impossible questions in there.

I think it's pretty obvious that Cena is good worker in the ring.

The problem is that most people in the "IWC" think that being a good worker means you have a giant list of moves and technical savvy; almost by default they dismiss anyone who works the WWE style.

Or to put it in TEW terms..brawlers will never get their due.

[lazorbeak]

Anybody watch Smackdown last week? I only caught part of it but I saw John Morrison's confrontation with Drew McIntyre where he showed up dressed as Braveheart (complete with sword) and cut a pretty outstanding promo. Seriously if this guy isn't in a world title picture by this time next year somebody massively dropped the ball.

[thatoneguy]

If JoMo can keep up the above average promos he should be, but most of the time he just doesn't cut it on the mic. He and Drew...I'm not even going to try to spell his last name right now because I'm positive I'll get it wrong, have good chemistry. Let's hope that shows up at TLC too.

[benjacko]

Anyone else noticed the clashing heads in the corner spot that seems to be in most WWE matches now? Don't remember that happening at all before but it's rampant at the moment :)

[Tha Black Phenom]

Likewise, I've noticed the lack of low blows or referee bumps. Those have been dwindled for a good while now, still -sigh-

[Wrestling Century]

Likewise, I've noticed the lack of low blows or referee bumps. Those have been dwindled for a good while now, still -sigh-

:eek: A good heel always needs to cheat during ref bumps! Maybe that's why even the heels are starting to get boring to me in WWE. They don't cheat enough during the matches (or they don't cheat in the right ways during matches. I mean really, a chair to get disqualified? It's not cheating if you always get caught!).

[Self]

Anyone else noticed the clashing heads in the corner spot that seems to be in most WWE matches now? Don't remember that happening at all before but it's rampant at the moment :)

Kinda like the miss-a-charge-and-ram-into-the-turnbuckle-then-get-finished finish from a little while ago.

:eek: A good heel always needs to cheat during ref bumps! Maybe that's why even the heels are starting to get boring to me in WWE. They don't cheat enough during the matches (or they don't cheat in the right ways during matches. I mean really, a chair to get disqualified? It's not cheating if you always get caught!).

I'm more of the opposite viewpoint. If 99% of matches end clean, then when someone does cheat to win, it's really dastardly. If 99% of matches have the heels cheating, then no one is going to care when someone low blows John Cena and steals the title. The key is moderation.

Thumbs to the eye. Back rakes. Foot stomps. Using the ropes for added leverage during an abdominal stretch. These are good forms of cheating though. We need a couple of guys doing old school stuff like that.

[lazorbeak]

Kinda like the miss-a-charge-and-ram-into-the-turnbuckle-then-get-finished finish from a little while ago.



I'm more of the opposite viewpoint. If 99% of matches end clean, then when someone does cheat to win, it's really dastardly. If 99% of matches have the heels cheating, then no one is going to care when someone low blows John Cena and steals the title. The key is moderation.

Thumbs to the eye. Back rakes. Foot stomps. Using the ropes for added leverage during an abdominal stretch. These are good forms of cheating though. We need a couple of guys doing old school stuff like that.

Completely agree. If Mike Knox cheats to win his match, it makes CM Punk's cheating in the main event or on pay per view lose some importance (I hate to use Knox but with Escobar turning face I can't think of a lower midcard heel). My favorite things about heels like Jericho though is not only does he cheat, but when he's not cheating he wants the rules enforced to the letter.

[ampulator]

The problem is they would have to admit to being wrong about him, so I doubt that will happen, at least not in the next five/ten years, lol.

I know alot of folks who would agree that Cena has actually done alot of "carrying" himself. For those that are better then him, he holds his own with them, and they get as much as they give ussually. SO really, it's up to his opponant if they want a "Good" match, or a "Great" match, because he seems always willing to do the best of his ability to make it happen.

To me, HBK vs Cena was a perfect example of two people really willing to make each other look the best they can possibly look, ending up with a match of the year on a normal show. Some argue that is because they had to fill in time, but good lord, look what they did with that "filler"!
I will never admit I'm wrong about Cena, because I'm not wrong about Cena. Bottomline.

The problem isn't that he's bad, but the fact he's simply not good enough. In fact, I don't find him carryable at all. His matches usually range from typically boring to typically bad. Other than his looks, there's nothing that's good about him. Charisma? Please, there's people with better charisma than he has. Mic Skills? Same thing. Wrestling? I don't even need to discuss that. Athleticism? Come on.

He's not bad, but he's not good either. He's just average. He deserves to be in the midcard/lower midcard at best. He nowhere deserves the defenses he has.

If you like him, fine, but don't try to say he's good, because he isn't. Name one Cena match being good where you can attribute it to Cena, and not because of the match gimmick, or the other wrestler. I can't.

In fact, the HBK Vs. Cena match sucked. And don't even mention the RAW match to me, because it was pretty much a "make-up" for the match before. If Cena could do half of what he did in that RAW match against HBK on every other PPV, then I wouldn't be complaining, would I?

[lazorbeak]

I will never admit I'm wrong about Cena, because I'm not wrong about Cena. Bottomline.

The problem isn't that he's bad, but the fact he's simply not good enough. In fact, I don't find him carryable at all. His matches usually range from typically boring to typically bad. Other than his looks, there's nothing that's good about him. Charisma? Please, there's people with better charisma than he has. Mic Skills? Same thing. Wrestling? I don't even need to discuss that. Athleticism? Come on.

He's not bad, but he's not good either. He's just average. He deserves to be in the midcard/lower midcard at best. He nowhere deserves the defenses he has.

If you like him, fine, but don't try to say he's good, because he isn't. Name one Cena match being good where you can attribute it to Cena, and not because of the match gimmick, or the other wrestler. I can't.

In fact, the HBK Vs. Cena match sucked. And don't even mention the RAW match to me, because it was pretty much a "make-up" for the match before. If Cena could do half of what he did in that RAW match against HBK on every other PPV, then I wouldn't be complaining, would I?

So, uh, how many post-2006 Cena matches have you actually watched? And seriously, deserves to be in the midcard/lower midcard? I take it you have selective memory of how ridiculously over he got on Smackdown during his run as a white rapper? He was getting bigger babyface reactions than Chris Benoit on Smackdown before Benoit won the Rumble (and left the show). And it's not as it if was just a matter of "well they booked him to steamroll everyone," because he worked his way up the card and had solid feuds with guys like Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, and other veteran talent to help get him established: it certainly wasn't the Brock Lesnar push where he beat both Hardy Boyz, RVD, Hogan, and the Rock in a 4 month period.

Not to mention he's been a solid and reliable draw, helping WWE to pick up their buyrates after some pretty stiff drops- even if he did suck in the ring (and he doesn't), he would be a top guy for that reason alone.

But really is it still en vogue to hate on Cena? What is this, 2005? How about some new material. In fact, I'm going to beat all the smarks to the punch this time. Kofi Kingston is completely terrible! He's got what, 4 moves, and 3 of them are kicks? Get outta heah!

[Tha Black Phenom]

In my opinion, Cena/HBK had the better match at Mania 23, but that's just me.

As for Cena, the only thing I dislike about him now is his character. This generic babyface who is at the forefront no less, of WWE's flagship show... I don't like it. I can do with it. But I'll always wish for a change or so. The obvious reason me and many others don't like it is because we grew up with more than that. Those kids are stuck with him though, so not much damage there. I get the every-kid's-hero stigma here, but would it hurt that much to give him a little.. something? I mean, just last month. Cena had a promo with DX backstage, hyping up their triple threat. Cena made a comment about them beating each other all the time and the Bella Twins were shown in disgust.. his reaction was funny. Why can't there be more simple things like that, just here and there to highlight his funny persona? Because they're definitely trying to pass off John Cena as a funny guy. There's just no... substance, he's just seen as a walking billboard and occasionally, SuperCena who hypes his own matches more than commentators.

Before anyone follows, yes I am obviously berating the creative team for this, and not Cena himself. (somehow, someone always needs to follow up with stating that) Cena himself, I don't... well... I still don't like him, but I don't hate him either.

[PeterHilton]

I will never admit I'm wrong about Cena, because I'm not wrong about Cena. Bottomline.



HAHAHAHA....WTF?

Listen, I think maybe you should try and wrap your head around something: wrestling is not a sport. It's a work. It's fake.

The ONLY thing that REALLY matters in pro wrestling is a worker's ability to get the audience to pay to watch them.

That's it.

Whether it's by OMG roxorz!!! work rate or through the use of promos, or their look or their ability to play the babyface in peril or whatever. Whether it's getting people to pay to root them on or to watch them lose. It's wrestling; if you put asses in the seats, you are - by the only definition that matters in rasslin - a good worker.

Your opinion on Cena, no matter how definitive you are, is still completely subjective. But the fact that Cena is the biggest draw in American pro wrestling since the Attitude Era..that's a truth.

People are willing to pay to see him perform. A lot. For a sustained period of time. By the time he's finished he'll be looked at as one of the top 5 most successful WWE wrestlers ever.

I know he's not a superior ring technician. And his character to me personally is dull as hell. But he's the biggest draw in the E which means he most definitely should be at the top of the card.

To suggest anything else is just the delusional ramblings of internet wrestling snobs.

[alden]

In modern wrestling.......as far as the wwe goes......."wrestling talent" is low on the list of things to look for and i think it should be. Lets be honest......name a top draw in the last twenty years who had alot of wrestling talent........I can name maybe 10 MAYBE.......

Rock....as a wrestler he was not that good
austin.........nope
hogan........the five moves of death
triple h.........see hogan
hall..............next
nash.........when he wanted to be *sober* he was ok......but never a huge draw

I think i made my point.........For every angle or guerrero.......there is five austins and rocks......people don't pay to see people wrestle in the wwe any more. If so lance storm.........william regal......and guys like him would be top draws.

[masterded]

In modern wrestling.......as far as the wwe goes......."wrestling talent" is low on the list of things to look for and i think it should be. Lets be honest......name a top draw in the last twenty years who had alot of wrestling talent........I can name maybe 10 MAYBE.......

Rock....as a wrestler he was not that good
austin.........nope
hogan........the five moves of death
triple h.........see hogan
hall..............next
nash.........when he wanted to be *sober* he was ok......but never a huge draw

I think i made my point.........For every angle or guerrero.......there is five austins and rocks......people don't pay to see people wrestle in the wwe any more. If so lance storm.........william regal......and guys like him would be top draws.

First I think you switched Hall and Nash. Second you don't think Austin was talented? Sure after Owen messed him up and as his knees got worst he wasn't as good as he once was, but he was a great wrestler talent wise.

[BoomKing]

Ok, so the rock would be the first to admit he was never the best 'wrestler,' but he had ring presence coming out of his ass! (in my opinion.)

Before all his neck troubles, and in a few brief outings afterwards, Austin was a really great wrestler, and more than hung with Bret Hart.

Hogan...see Rock

Triple H had a really good run of awesome matches so he had the talent but rarely shows it unless he has the right opponent

Again, Scott Hall was at one time or another a huge prospect, but for whatever 'personal demons' he had, never fulfilled it.

Nash...well Nash is Nash, I'll give you that one.

On top of that I'll add CM Punk, Brock Lesnar, (who was beginning to show signs of awesomeness,) Kurt Angle, Christian Cage, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho....all wrestlers who I would consider as talented who have recieved major pushes. Regal was pushed huuuuuge...until he got caught by wellness.

[alden]

lol i just relized what i did switch hall and nash my bad ;).........austin when he was a good wrestler was never a draw.....he did not start making big money till the time after the neck injury..........He was a brawler and i guess that might be one reason why i looked at him as less talented. I always though anyone could be a "brawler"

[BoomKing]

yeah...I can kind of see where your coming from with Austin, however, I think that he would have been as popular with or without the necessary changes in his wrestling. I guess we will never know for sure though.

[masterded]

lol i just relized what i did switch hall and nash my bad ;).........austin when he was a good wrestler was never a draw.....he did not start making big money till the time after the neck injury..........He was a brawler and i guess that might be one reason why i looked at him as less talented. I always though anyone could be a "brawler"

I think that is why we would have very different opinions on someone like Austin after he got hurt. I find brawling to be very under rated especially the ones who do it with out hurting their opponent, which is why I don’t like a lot of people who work stiff (I mean anyone can make a hit look like it hurts when they actually punch you).

[d_w_w]

I will never admit I'm wrong about Cena, because I'm not wrong about Cena. Bottomline.


:rolleyes:

Read: You aren't worth talking to when it comes to Cena.

Good to know, I guess.

[alden]

Ok, so the rock would be the first to admit he was never the best 'wrestler,' but he had ring presence coming out of his ass! (in my opinion.)

Before all his neck troubles, and in a few brief outings afterwards, Austin was a really great wrestler, and more than hung with Bret Hart.

Hogan...see Rock

Triple H had a really good run of awesome matches so he had the talent but rarely shows it unless he has the right opponent

Again, Scott Hall was at one time or another a huge prospect, but for whatever 'personal demons' he had, never fulfilled it.

Nash...well Nash is Nash, I'll give you that one.

On top of that I'll add CM Punk, Brock Lesnar, (who was beginning to show signs of awesomeness,) Kurt Angle, Christian Cage, AJ Styles, Samoa Joe, Chris Benoit, Chris Jericho....all wrestlers who I would consider as talented who have recieved major pushes. Regal was pushed huuuuuge...until he got caught by wellness.

I think there is a diffrence between a push.....and a draw....styles could not draw any real money to be honest, same with joe christian and benoit. Jericho....well he draws and is uber talented so i think he might be one of the exceptions......but even he has towned down him in ring talent as of late. I think lesner could have been huge....like hogan and rock huge......he was young....had a great look and with heyman was getting a ton of screen time.

[ampulator]

So, uh, how many post-2006 Cena matches have you actually watched? And seriously, deserves to be in the midcard/lower midcard? I take it you have selective memory of how ridiculously over he got on Smackdown during his run as a white rapper? He was getting bigger babyface reactions than Chris Benoit on Smackdown before Benoit won the Rumble (and left the show). And it's not as it if was just a matter of "well they booked him to steamroll everyone," because he worked his way up the card and had solid feuds with guys like Eddie Guerrero, Undertaker, and other veteran talent to help get him established: it certainly wasn't the Brock Lesnar push where he beat both Hardy Boyz, RVD, Hogan, and the Rock in a 4 month period.

Not to mention he's been a solid and reliable draw, helping WWE to pick up their buyrates after some pretty stiff drops- even if he did suck in the ring (and he doesn't), he would be a top guy for that reason alone.

But really is it still en vogue to hate on Cena? What is this, 2005? How about some new material. In fact, I'm going to beat all the smarks to the punch this time. Kofi Kingston is completely terrible! He's got what, 4 moves, and 3 of them are kicks? Get outta heah!
I actually like Kofi Kingston. I don't have an issue with at all. Sheamus, on the other hand... ugh...

And yes, I was paying attention when he was the "white rapper". I still didn't like him back then, even when he was more edgy.

I also thought his fueds with Eddie Guerrero and Undertaker were fine, but the matches certainly were not up to par.

You say I care if it's "stylish" to hate on Cena. I'm doing this because it's stylish. I'm doing this I genuinely believe Cena doesn't deserve to be in the main event, and that he has... HAD.... been shoved up through and down onto me. And the reason why there seems to be less hate in certain cities, is not because Cena them over, it's because they stopped attending the events. If you go to a bigger event, like Wrestlemania, those boos are still very much there.

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

[thatoneguy]

Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough.

Proof that you're wrong: The Ultimate Warrior.

[SaySo]

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

Anyone can be made to draw? So you telling me that Jamie Noble was pushed the way they pushed Cena (03-05), he'll draw fans? How the hell did Cena draw if he isn't actually good? I'm totally confused.

Guess what i find online about the WWE.

**** comScore Media Metrix April 2009 – June 2009 United States

Demographics

* 61% are male
* 15% are ages 12-17
* 67% are ages 18-49
* 41% are males 18-34
* 33% are non-white
* 29% have a HHI of 75K or higher
* 15% have a HHI of 100K or higher

Why aren't any wrestling promotions taking advantage of the fans leaving the WWE.

[PeterHilton]

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

You really don't know what you're talking about.

You have an OPINION. I think you should maybe consider that the majority of people who are out there watching wrestling just don't share your OPINION.

The WWE as a business has proven that they want to market their product to the widest audience possible.They don't really care one way or the other about the internet wrestling geek, because those "fans" will watch anyway, even if it's just to boo the hell out of someone like Cena.

It's sort of like arguing about music: pop music gets hammered by critics and destroyed by music snobs, but it makes millions of dollars.

And in the end, isn't that KIND OF THE POINT.

[ECW 2.0]

Sheamus is the new champ? This marks the start of the end for WWE

[lazorbeak]

I actually like Kofi Kingston. I don't have an issue with at all. Sheamus, on the other hand... ugh...

Please ignore any whooshing sound you may hear passing overhead. :rolleyes:



You say I care if it's "stylish" to hate on Cena.

No I didn't. I just pointed out that you're making a tired and horribly dated argument.

And anyone who says "X cannot draw" is ignorant. Anyone can be made to draw, if the WWE's market machine is proof enough. I'm not denying Cena draws. He does. I'm just saying he's boring. The fans he draws aren't exactly long-time fans, and most of them would fade away when they are old to realize what they are seeing isn't actually that good.

Tell that to Chris Benoit, Rey Mysterio, and all the other one time champions who were such disasterously poor draws that they never got near a world title again. If you think "anyone" can be a draw, you're the one that's ignorant of what being a "draw" actually means. Hint: it doesn't mean that you're pushed into the main event.

[supershot]

Anyone shocked that Sheamus just defeated Cena?

[ECW 2.0]

No, but this is the start of the end for WWE Sheamus is a peice of talentless crap!!

[Bolton]

Sheamus wins the WWE title, good to see an Irishman with the gold. :p

[PeterHilton]

Sheamus is the new champ? This marks the start of the end for WWE

:rolleyes:

Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you stop talking for a while?

[sabataged]

:rolleyes:

Take it easy, Champ. Why don't you stop talking for a while?

Cena will either get it back tonight or tomorrow...whenever his rematch is

[ECW 2.0]

I guess WWE fans r too...well i want use the words im thinking of you all think any thing vince does is great when the fact is he has nothing but sh*t with WWE right now

[Franchise22]

for the first time in some time i was shocked by the wwe. i thought this reaked of a walkover to hold us to a major defense at rumble and beyond. Even if he loses it back on raw 2morrow (like kane did with austin), it still holds an OMG feel IMO.

[lazorbeak]

I predict JBL 2.0, only Irish. 10 month reign, here we come! Seriously it's a really good "shock" move by the WWE. I'm definitely going to watch Raw for the first time since MSG.

[PeterHilton]

I guess WWE fans r too...well i want use the words im thinking of you all think any thing vince does is great when the fact is he has nothing but sh*t with WWE right now

Yeah...sit the next couple plays out, if you know what I mean

[thatoneguy]

God damn it. The guy isn't over, he's been here for a couple of months, and while he impressed me, he didn't impress me enough to even win the US title, let alone the WWE ****ing championship. Just....just awful. Why not give that match to DiBiase? Or Rhodes? Or Kingston? Guys who have proved they are good, have gotten over, and have proven they're far more reliable?

[PeterHilton]

I predict JBL 2.0, only Irish. 10 month reign, here we come! Seriously it's a really good "shock" move by the WWE. I'm definitely going to watch Raw for the first time since MSG.

Meh. Sheamus is getting very little heatr from the live crowds. Yes, it's a shocking moment, but I really doubt it's going anywhere.

I'm positive however it will not lead to the "downfall of the WWE."

[Tha Black Phenom]

God damn it. The guy isn't over, he's been here for a couple of months, and while he impressed me, he didn't impress me enough to even win the US title, let alone the WWE ****ing championship. Just....just awful. Why not give that match to DiBiase? Or Rhodes? Or Kingston? Guys who have proved they are good, have gotten over, and have proven they're far more reliable?

because neither of those guys fit the kind of monster push that has been given sheamus.

The ONLY thing that irks me about this is how sheamus came about, being trips' favorite partner. not that it bothers me personally, but people are gonna talk about this...

but the move itself? I don't approve, nor disapprove. i'm just waiting to see the results of this. It interests me, however...

[ECW 2.0]

Yeah...sit the next couple plays out, if you know what I mean

man shut the hell up nobody is even talkin to you, im just WWE is nothing but a big joke these days

[lovestruck420]

I'm pretty well through with wrestling in general. Its lost alot of its appeal since I have got more heavily involved in MMA and K1.

But I do have to say that this move just sickens me.

[ShadowedFlames]

I give it a month at most before Orton wins the belt back. Orton/Cena LXXXVIII at WrestleMania, anyone?

[lovestruck420]

I give it a month at most before Orton wins the belt back. Orton/Cena LXXXVIII at WrestleMania, anyone?


I've been saying this since the last Wrestlemania..............sad isn't it.

[Zeel1]

Wow...Sheamus as WWE Champion. Didn't see that one coming..WWE trying to make him into the new Lesnar? I don't expect it to last long, (Main Eventing WrestleMania within his first year?!) but then I most certainly didn't expect it to start in the first place. Not the biggest fan of Sheamus, but I think a good reason for that is that he's only had about one match in the WWE that lasted longer then 7 minutes before this one, and that would've been the Benjamin one. (Two if you count the Battle Royal, maybe.) I'll be interested in watching this Cena/Sheamus match to see how well he goes when given what I'd presume to be over ten minutes.

But I have to say, this is, if nothing else, a daring decision by the WWE. Sheamus has not gotten very big reactions throughout his title campaign, atleast I don't think so, so giving him the belt right now is a pretty damned gutsy move..

Again, not Sheamus' biggest fan, but I approve of WWE's strive to make new stars, and so far, TLC is telling me it's a very legit effort. If doing that means megapushing some untested talent, I'm all for it.

[Tha Black Phenom]

I *really* hope they have a lining storyline set for this, not just a shock move for the sake of being a shock move like the numerous swerves over the last two years.

[supershot]

I did NOT want Randy to win clean on Kingston. :(

[alden]

I think shamaus is a credible champion.........He has a very unique look....VERY UNIQUE lol......can talk......and was booked as a unstopable monster. He got a lesnar push yes.......but i think he can do it.

O and by the way.......on the subject of anyone can draw money.......tell that to my former book keeprs lol........not everyone can be a draw.

[Tha Black Phenom]

Randy winning clean is perfect, means kofi's push will be long-term and very slowly built. you gotta play with the crowd, mingle kofi a bit before getting a big W.

[supershot]

Randy winning clean is perfect, means kofi's push will be long-term and very slowly built. you gotta play with the crowd, mingle kofi a bit before getting a big W.

I just feel like he had HUGE momentum and now hes back to where he was before the start of the fued. It did get him exposed more.

I guess well have to see whats next.

[PeterHilton]

I think shamaus is a credible champion.........He has a very unique look....VERY UNIQUE lol......can talk......and was booked as a unstopable monster. He got a lesnar push yes.......but i think he can do it.


He did NOT get a Lesnar push.

Brock came in and destroyed people, yes. But Brock was destroying established name wrestlers the night he debuted.

By the time he was put in the main event scene he had feuded with both of the Hardyz, won KOTR, feuded with RVD, and got a giant rub by absolutely anhilating Hulk Hogan.

By the time he beat The Rock at SummerSlam, he'd already worked matches with him, Undertaker and Kurt Angle.

He was also massively over and had Paul Heyman to cut his promos for him.

I just don't think you can compare the two. Sheamus has had a handful of matches on the main roster, tried to get heat by attacking a jobber and some ringside personnel, and won his shot in a cheap battle royal victory. He gets minimal heat and his look really doesn't seem that special imo

I really REALLY don't see Sheamus as a credible world champ.

[thatoneguy]

All he really has on his side is his look. And even that isn't that special. There are guys bigger than him, guys better than him, and even a guy as pale as him(well...not yet. But AmDrag will be on the main roster soon) so that doesn't amount to a whole lot, especially when the crowd is so "meh" for him.

[Tha Black Phenom]

nope, this ain't a lesnar push: it's a sheamus push. :cool: And be damned if i start bashin on it when we haven't seen where it takes us. just like vince winning the rumble in 99 or whatever else, you have to see where it takes us.

Edit: fixed typo. oh, and DX as tag champions... another interesting move.

[supershot]

Jericho took a "sick bump" imo. :cool:

[ShadowedFlames]

Jericho took a "sick bump" imo. :cool:

Indeed...that was a botched table spot.

[b0shey]

damn the jericho fall at the end looked bad, hope he's not injured.
cannot believe they put the belt on that clown sheamus.

[ampulator]

I think shamaus is a credible champion.........He has a very unique look....VERY UNIQUE lol......can talk......and was booked as a unstopable monster. He got a lesnar push yes.......but i think he can do it.

O and by the way.......on the subject of anyone can draw money.......tell that to my former book keeprs lol........not everyone can be a draw.
Of course, ALMOST anyone can draw, with the right marketing machine behind them. Is WWE not enough proof of this?

[thatoneguy]

No. Once again, see Ultimate Warrior, The.

[PeterHilton]

Of course, ALMOST anyone can draw, with the right marketing machine behind them. Is WWE not enough proof of this?

You really just refuse to believe that your POV isn't anything more special or more correct than anyone else's POV don't you?

[ampulator]

No. Once again, see Ultimate Warrior, The.
I hated the Ultimate Warrior. I thought he sucked. But you give evidence for, not against, my argument.

You really just refuse to believe that your POV isn't anything more special or more correct than anyone else's POV don't you?

That's where you are wrong. My viewpoint isn't special. It's normal. But it is CORRECT.

And if you don't believe me, I'll give examples. It's because of WWE, Hulk Hogan, Steve Austin, the Rock, and John Cena got big as they did. However, it's also true that, if WWE, wanted to push someone that doesn't really have what it takes, like Cena, they can do it, and can get away with it when they have no competition.

Would Hulk Hogan be where he is today without WWE? No. Steve Austin? No. The Rock? No. John Cena? No. John Cena only is the draw because WWE made him that way, not because he's good at anything.... no matter how much you... or I.... know he's not good at much, if at anything. WWE made John Cena's career. They made a draw. That's proof enough.

Almost everyone that WWE has pushed to the main event has found success one way or another, at one time or another. Brock Lesnar? UFC Fighter. Kurt Angle? Was a multiple-time champion in WWE. Scott Hall? Earned big money in WCW, had great matces in WWF and WCW, was WWF Intercontinental Title holder. Kevin Nash? Made big money, another multi-time champion.

And the others I just listed.

[Wrestling Century]

To anybody who saw it, was TLC worth buying on dvd or getting the replay on PPV?

[The Celt]

I don't care what any one says...

AN IRISH MAN IS YOUR WWE CHAMPION!!!

AAAAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAHHH

*Head Explodes*

I WATCHED HIM WRESTLE INFRONT OF 50 PEOPLE JUST 4 YEARS AGO!!!

IRELANDS WINS IRELANDS WINS IRELAND WWWIINNSSSSS!!!!!

[thatoneguy]

I hated the Ultimate Warrior. I thought he sucked. But you give evidence for, not against, my argument.

No, I give evidence against your argument. Warrior drew absolutely nothing. I could also churn out a very well known name in Kevin Nash, who in the WWF was built up pretty damn well, and drew even less than Warrior.

[BHK1978]

The ONLY thing that irks me about this is how sheamus came about, being trips' favorite partner. not that it bothers me personally, but people are gonna talk about this...

The minute that I read that both he and Drew McIntyre won major titles (well the IC is no longer major but you know what I mean) that was the first thing that came to my mind. From what I read, Sheamus is a workout buddy of HHH and Drew is HHH's personal project. So I was not shocked by the fact that either man won a title.

And did DX really have the main event tonight? I did not see the show, but in the recap that I read they had that match as the last one. If that was the case, I have to give a big ? to that. I mean just because HHH is going for the tag team title means that match should be the main event or two world title matches? Since when has the WWF treated their tag team titles as a main event belt (not since the 70's)? Now maybe I am clouded by my hate of HHH and HBK but the tag team title match should never be the Main Event over two world title matches. This isn't ROH after all, were the tag team titles actually mean something.

Sorry about the rant.

[SaySo]

Meh. Sheamus is getting very little heatr from the live crowds. Yes, it's a shocking moment, but I really doubt it's going anywhere.

I'm positive however it will not lead to the "downfall of the WWE."

Wait, you said you only watch the first 10 minutes of Raw because it is repetitive and awful. Now you know the kind of reaction he gets?!??!?!?!?? I don't watch TNA, but i don't say AJ Styles gets little heat. Plus i have watch the last month, he got reaction. I guess you need to clean ears to find out.

But we can all talk like we know more than the WWE. This is the same company that has been around for 25+ years. The same company that took Hulk Hogan and made him into a wrestling legend. The same company that took The Rock and made him a mainstream superstar. The same company that took Brock and made him into a MMA superstar (well not really but he got his name known where?). Where did their stardom start? WWE. We act like "yeah, they did this then, look at now." But the same guy running the show is the same guy who ran it before. They are soo boring yet they make money. WCW didn't make money..the merger of AOL-Time Warner and their canceling of WCW proved that.

But what do y'all know...it's easy to stand here and say this and that...but history shown...it begins where? You wouldn't be talking about Ken Anderson if it wasn't for the WWE recognizing his ability.

This is amazing. A guy wins the belt and the same rhetoric comes back.

[darthsiddus2]

I actually like Sheamus. from what little I've seen of him he seems like a believable champ.... at least until they put the belt on Cena or Orton again.

[masterded]

The minute that I read that both he and Drew McIntyre won major titles (well the IC is no longer major but you know what I mean) that was the first thing that came to my mind. From what I read, Sheamus is a workout buddy of HHH and Drew is HHH's personal project. So I was not shocked by the fact that either man won a title.

And did DX really have the main event tonight? I did not see the show, but in the recap that I read they had that match as the last one. If that was the case, I have to give a big ? to that. I mean just because HHH is going for the tag team title means that match should be the main event or two world title matches? Since when has the WWF treated their tag team titles as a main event belt (not since the 70's)? Now maybe I am clouded by my hate of HHH and HBK but the tag team title match should never be the Main Event over two world title matches. This isn't ROH after all, were the tag team titles actually mean something.

Sorry about the rant.

It is understandable why DX vs Jerishow would be the Main Event.

I mean you have a Chairs match with Undertaker and Batista which I doubt would be too exciting.

Then you have Cena vs Sheamus a not so over worker.

Then you have a TLC match with 4 of your biggest stars that should be exciting.

So you have Star power on both sides and a match that should be exciting, which I would say makes the ideal Main Event.

[tristram]

Wait, you said you only watch the first 10 minutes of Raw because it is repetitive and awful. Now you know the kind of reaction he gets?!??!?!?!?? I don't watch TNA, but i don't say AJ Styles gets little heat. Plus i have watch the last month, he got reaction. I guess you need to clean ears to find out.

But we can all talk like we know more than the WWE. This is the same company that has been around for 25+ years. The same company that took Hulk Hogan and made him into a wrestling legend. The same company that took The Rock and made him a mainstream superstar. The same company that took Brock and made him into a MMA superstar (well not really but he got his name known where?). Where did their stardom start? WWE. We act like "yeah, they did this then, look at now." But the same guy running the show is the same guy who ran it before. They are soo boring yet they make money. WCW didn't make money..the merger of AOL-Time Warner and their canceling of WCW proved that.

But what do y'all know...it's easy to stand here and say this and that...but history shown...it begins where? You wouldn't be talking about Ken Anderson if it wasn't for the WWE recognizing his ability.

This is amazing. A guy wins the belt and the same rhetoric comes back.

That's not completely true. WCW had some very, very profitable years. Whilst its true to say as a stand alone entity it was a cash cow at the end, its also important to note that despite ratings being low the advert slots were very lucrative. The main reason WCW is no longer here is not to do with ratings or individual profitability, its to do with the fact that certain executives in the new merger did not want a professional wrestling product in their schedule. They wanted to take the networks away from the young male demographic and this precluded WCW's existence. Once WCW was without a network it was shot. All the merger really proved was that WCW did not fit into a new strategic direction for the merged entity.

I've seen a little of Sheamus, and I don't buy him. He has the look that appeals to me to be decent mid to upper-midcarder, but... he just doesn't strike me as having 'it'. I know he's obviously had a strong push to try and sell it, but its sorta like Christopher Daniels to me. Daniels is great at putting guys over, but he just doesn't have that extra 1% to be the go-to man. I will however applaud the WWE though for trying to create new champions, overall I think their booking of Sheamus and Drew McIntyre has been very good.

I didn't see the PPV, how did a pure TLC PPV go? For me, TLC is a specialty, its something that you book 'all out' and 'overbook' and you need special dynamics to pull it off. I am not sure how a complete TLC card would go, so I'm interested to hear how it did go. Or was it matches that were ladders, chairs, or tables, or TLC.. in other words not all TLC matches?

[BHK1978]

The same company that took Hulk Hogan and made him into a wrestling legend. The same company that took The Rock and made him a mainstream superstar. The same company that took Brock and made him into a MMA superstar (well not really but he got his name known where?). Where did their stardom start? WWE.

Well to be fair Hulk Hogan was already a star before he came back to the WWF. Yes he was not the megastar that he became but he was already a star in the wrestling world due to his work in Japan and the AWA.

And who made who in regards to Vince and Hogan? I have always thought about that myself? Did the WWF become the powerhouse it is today because of Vince? Or did it become the powerhouse it is today because of Hulk? Or was it both of them who made the company big?

I would say there could be an argument for each case, but I had to say one out of the three, it would be the last one.


It is understandable why DX vs Jerishow would be the Main Event.

I mean you have a Chairs match with Undertaker and Batista which I doubt would be too exciting.

Then you have Cena vs Sheamus a not so over worker.

Then you have a TLC match with 4 of your biggest stars that should be exciting.

So you have Star power on both sides and a match that should be exciting, which I would say makes the ideal Main Event.

Yeah once you break it down like that masterded it makes sense that they would have that match in the main event. Just chalk my rant up to my intense dislike of HHH and HBK.

[sabataged]

The minute that I read that both he and Drew McIntyre won major titles (well the IC is no longer major but you know what I mean) that was the first thing that came to my mind. From what I read, Sheamus is a workout buddy of HHH and Drew is HHH's personal project. So I was not shocked by the fact that either man won a title.

And did DX really have the main event tonight? I did not see the show, but in the recap that I read they had that match as the last one. If that was the case, I have to give a big ? to that. I mean just because HHH is going for the tag team title means that match should be the main event or two world title matches? Since when has the WWF treated their tag team titles as a main event belt (not since the 70's)? Now maybe I am clouded by my hate of HHH and HBK but the tag team title match should never be the Main Event over two world title matches. This isn't ROH after all, were the tag team titles actually mean something.

Sorry about the rant.

Kind of like the other poster said...you had table match, ladder match, chair match, and then the big finale. Also it was Shawn Michaels hometown of San Antonio so I think that plays into it sometimes.

[Bigpapa42]

Interesting choice to put the belt on Sheamus. I'm happy in a basic sense, as I am among the many fans who have complained about the WWE main event scene being relatively stale. Sheamus was elevated awfully quick and I am skeptical of him being able to produce at the top level. But I will certainly give it a chance and not decide I hate it before it has a chance to really play out.

[BHK1978]

Interesting choice to put the belt on Sheamus. I'm happy in a basic sense, as I am among the many fans who have complained about the WWE main event scene being relatively stale. Sheamus was elevated awfully quick and I am skeptical of him being able to produce at the top level. But I will certainly give it a chance and not decide I hate it before it has a chance to really play out.

Yeah I agree 100% about being skeptical in regards to Sheamus. Who knows he might have a Tommy Rich/Ivan Koloff run with the belt where he holds if for a week or so and then gives it back to Cena. This might just be a test run to see if the fans will buy Sheamus as a World Champion. I think at most he will hold the title until the Royal Rumble and then Cena will win it back at that event.

[Stennick]

Sometimes I think no matter what the "E" does people will complain. People hated HHH as world champion he's spent the better part of the last few years hanging out in DX land far far away from the title cept for a Randy Orton feud.

People complained that WWE was pushing too many body builders and not enough real wrestlers. Well now they have CM Punk, Jack Swagger, Bryan Danielson, they tried to bring in Nigel.

People complained that the attitude era was over and they should find something new. They start pushing Morrison, Hardy, Punk, Legacy, now the Celtic Warrior. People still complain.

People complain about the tag titles being meaningless in this decade. They put the titles on Jericho and Show and push them to the moon being the only champions that are seen on both shows and constantly involved in main event feuds for said title. Now people complain that these same titles and people are main eventing pay per views.

If I was Vince or anyone else looking at these boards trying to give these people what they want I'd tear my hair out. Seriously they want new stars but not THOSE new stars, they want titles to be important but not main eventing, they want a new direction but they don't want THAT direction.

I have accepted the fact that I will likely never be a big wrestling fan again. Part of it is I was never a big WWE fan anyway. RAW built its success on being unpredictable. Anything and anyone can show up. Well thats not the case any longer. Their the only dog in town, their a publically traded company, the economy is in the toilet. Times have changed and so has our favorite past time.

I know exactly why I don't like the show. Every show seems the same, every star seems to be the same build, the same height and almost void of any personal characteristics. There is little time four shows sometimes three to build between pay per views and stories. Those are the reasons I no longer watch and I'm ok with that.

It seems to be others manufacture reasons for themselves why they don't watch wrestling. Its hard to just say "wrestling isn't what it used to be and thats why I don't watch". Its hard to look to the past and realize something will never be like that again or if it is its a long ways off. Its much easier to say "I'd watch again if they did this or that". Problem is they try doing this or that and people just flip their opinion. I bet if we look in this very thread we would see people having counter opinions against themselves when it comes to the product. People saying "I want them to create new stars" or "I want the titles to mean something". Then the minute Vince and his band of merry yes men try this people instantly flip on it and say "WHAT ARE THEY DOING".

I think since 2003 I've heard people complaining about the state of the wrestling industry and what it was lacking and why. Yet if you look at Vince's numbers their always right around the same area. Which means that after six years the same people that were fed up with the presentation back them are mostly still watching today. Its been said countless times. Vince is driven by two things television ratings and pay per view buys. You don't like the product then I suggest people start talking with their remotes. Everyone here claims to not watch and then goes into detail about feuds and crowd responses. So either their making these things up in their head (highly unlikely since there accurate assessments ) or their lying to themselves and everyone else.

I barely watch but from what I have watched and from what I've heard on here if I look at this pay per view I see young stars being pushed, old stars putting over new stars, tag team titles main eventing, and championships in general being at the forefront of a main event feud. Yet I come on here and people are proclaiming the horrible mistakes of Vince. Its funny they say most wrestling fans are men yet with the complaining and constant mind changing I'd be inclined to think those statistics were reversed. I kid.....I kid

[sabataged]

Sometimes I think no matter what the "E" does people will complain. People hated HHH as world champion he's spent the better part of the last few years hanging out in DX land far far away from the title cept for a Randy Orton feud.

People complained that WWE was pushing too many body builders and not enough real wrestlers. Well now they have CM Punk, Jack Swagger, Bryan Danielson, they tried to bring in Nigel.

People complained that the attitude era was over and they should find something new. They start pushing Morrison, Hardy, Punk, Legacy, now the Celtic Warrior. People still complain.

People complain about the tag titles being meaningless in this decade. They put the titles on Jericho and Show and push them to the moon being the only champions that are seen on both shows and constantly involved in main event feuds for said title. Now people complain that these same titles and people are main eventing pay per views.

If I was Vince or anyone else looking at these boards trying to give these people what they want I'd tear my hair out. Seriously they want new stars but not THOSE new stars, they want titles to be important but not main eventing, they want a new direction but they don't want THAT direction.

I have accepted the fact that I will likely never be a big wrestling fan again. Part of it is I was never a big WWE fan anyway. RAW built its success on being unpredictable. Anything and anyone can show up. Well thats not the case any longer. Their the only dog in town, their a publically traded company, the economy is in the toilet. Times have changed and so has our favorite past time.

I know exactly why I don't like the show. Every show seems the same, every star seems to be the same build, the same height and almost void of any personal characteristics. There is little time four shows sometimes three to build between pay per views and stories. Those are the reasons I no longer watch and I'm ok with that.

It seems to be others manufacture reasons for themselves why they don't watch wrestling. Its hard to just say "wrestling isn't what it used to be and thats why I don't watch". Its hard to look to the past and realize something will never be like that again or if it is its a long ways off. Its much easier to say "I'd watch again if they did this or that". Problem is they try doing this or that and people just flip their opinion. I bet if we look in this very thread we would see people having counter opinions against themselves when it comes to the product. People saying "I want them to create new stars" or "I want the titles to mean something". Then the minute Vince and his band of merry yes men try this people instantly flip on it and say "WHAT ARE THEY DOING".

I think since 2003 I've heard people complaining about the state of the wrestling industry and what it was lacking and why. Yet if you look at Vince's numbers their always right around the same area. Which means that after six years the same people that were fed up with the presentation back them are mostly still watching today. Its been said countless times. Vince is driven by two things television ratings and pay per view buys. You don't like the product then I suggest people start talking with their remotes. Everyone here claims to not watch and then goes into detail about feuds and crowd responses. So either their making these things up in their head (highly unlikely since there accurate assessments ) or their lying to themselves and everyone else.

I barely watch but from what I have watched and from what I've heard on here if I look at this pay per view I see young stars being pushed, old stars putting over new stars, tag team titles main eventing, and championships in general being at the forefront of a main event feud. Yet I come on here and people are proclaiming the horrible mistakes of Vince. Its funny they say most wrestling fans are men yet with the complaining and constant mind changing I'd be inclined to think those statistics were reversed. I kid.....I kid

I think primarily it is too cool to "hate WWE" so the majority of people rip the **** out of them regardless of what they do. The same people primarily say how great TNA is when it generally is a laughing stock. I admit in the past month TNA finally has started to produce some good TV for the first time since Impact in my opinion. Maybe all the closet WWE fans who think it is cool to rip WWE should quit watching it, quit reading it, and quit following it. And not like the most people on here who "don't follow WWE", I mean genuinely quit. Don't just come on these forums, and other forums and tell people I don't keep up with WWE anymore because of blah blah blah. Then when someone brings up something that happened in WWE you are the first to make a comment about it. If you are an unsatisfied customer then just leave it be. It will make your life more enjoyable trust me. Either that or try something new for a change...quit bitching like a woman every 28 days or so :cool:

[BHK1978]

Yeah Stennick I admit that I am guilty of pretty much everything that you just said. However, the new stars being pushed are being pushed because they are friends of HHH. It has nothing to do with their talent (and I am not saying they are not talented), it is because they are friends with HHH. The same thing that WWF fans have always ragged on Hogan about is happening with HHH. If your his friend you will be pushed to the moon, no matter how much the fans like or dislike you.

As far as the tag team titles go, I just do not want Main Event guys holding those titles. They should use those titles to build up some of the younger guys. Do DX or Chris and The Big Slow really need those titles? The four of them have been over for a long time.

One more thing, I don't hate the WWF because it is the in thing to do. I don't even really hate the promotion at all, I just find it to be boring. Maybe because I have finally outgrown it or maybe because I have always felt that the product that Vince puts out is condescending (and this is going back to the early 1990's).

[Stennick]

BHK I know what you mean and I'm not saying Vince's plan is perfect or even good. Its just I see people complaining about wanting new things, fresh things and important main events and titles that mean something. This show pretty well on paper delivers those things and their not even getting a "well this is a good starting point lets see where this goes". Their getting "OMG THIS WAZ HORRIBLE" or whatever else their getting.

[sabataged]

Yeah Stennick I admit that I am guilty of pretty much everything that you just said. However, the new stars being pushed are being pushed because they are friends of HHH. It has nothing to do with their talent (and I am not saying they are not talented), it is because they are friends with HHH. The same thing that WWF fans have always ragged on Hogan about is happening with HHH. If your his friend you will be pushed to the moon, no matter how much the fans like or dislike you.

As far as the tag team titles go, I just do not want Main Event guys holding those titles. They should use those titles to build up some of the younger guys. Do DX or Chris and The Big Slow really need those titles? The four of them have been over for a long time.

Do you not see the new purpose of the tag titles? They give WWE a "way" of getting around the Brand Split. So get used to the fact that main eventers are holding the tag titles because it gives WWE a way to move guys around with out having to make up stupid storylines to justify it with people that are never going to be happy with anything anyway.

Also how do you know that he is getting the push just because he is friends with HHH? Are you backstage? Do you see them playing twister together? Hop scotch maybe? Just because some dickhead reporter says that they are friends doesn't mean they are like "best friends forever" type ****. What about Umaga? He got a mega push...you know what? Well other then him being a good talented big man he was also tight with HHH. Atleast that is what all the internet reports were saying that is why he turned down Hogan's offer to come to TNA. No one said **** about it years ago when he was going undefeated...because some internet reporter didn't report it.

Just don't believe everything you read is all i am saying. HHH thinks high of the guy, likes his work ethic, likes his talent...he puts ina good word for him now they are exchanging half heart necklaces :rolleyes:

[BHK1978]

BHK I know what you mean and I'm not saying Vince's plan is perfect or even good. Its just I see people complaining about wanting new things, fresh things and important main events and titles that mean something. This show pretty well on paper delivers those things and their not even getting a "well this is a good starting point lets see where this goes". Their getting "OMG THIS WAZ HORRIBLE" or whatever else their getting.

I think that it is a good starting point and maybe we will finally see some of the old guard step down.

The minute WCW closed down and Vince saw his "dream" of destroying every major North American promotion become a reality, was kind of when my interest in wrestling started to go down. Yes I watch TNA on a weekly basis and the quality of their show is no better but for some reason I enjoy TNA better.

Do you not see the new purpose of the tag titles? They give WWE a "way" of getting around the Brand Split. So get used to the fact that main eventers are holding the tag titles because it gives WWE a way to move guys around with out having to make up stupid storylines to justify it with people that are never going to be happy with anything anyway.

Also how do you know that he is getting the push just because he is friends with HHH? Are you backstage? Do you see them playing twister together? Hop scotch maybe? Just because some dickhead reporter says that they are friends doesn't mean they are like "best friends forever" type ****. What about Umaga? He got a mega push...you know what? Well other then him being a good talented big man he was also tight with HHH. Atleast that is what all the internet reports were saying that is why he turned down Hogan's offer to come to TNA. No one said **** about it years ago when he was going undefeated...because some internet reporter didn't report it.

Just don't believe everything you read is all i am saying. HHH thinks high of the guy, likes his work ethic, likes his talent...he puts ina good word for him now they are exchanging half heart necklaces :rolleyes:

You are right I do not know if it is true or not. However, I tend to believe it is so. Wrestling history is riddled with people in power pushing their friends. Dusty did it, Hogan did it, Vince has done it, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that it is not happening now. I could throw the same question your way as well, do you work backstage? Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is not happening?

[Stennick]

Come on Sab you know that if its reported on a wrestling website...which might I point out that all wrestling news reported to us is automatically second hand information. The Observer relies on guys mostly wrestlers themselves reporting ****. I don't know about you but this isn't CNN with respectable sources its boys in the locker room bent outta shape because their push just became someone elses. Its not because their not talented, its because their not friends with the evil HHH. I never heard two words about HHH and Sheamus when he was in developmental now that he's been on the big boys roster what two or three months their bff's? Whats funny is people bitch about WWE's storylines being unbelievable but I never hear anyone bitching about how these backstage stories aren't believable. I think CNN catches more skepticism than Dave does.

[Self]

Bah. I meant to watch TLC last night, but I forgot about it and had an early night instead. Seems I missed some important stuff.

- Morrison losing the IC title bums me out, but I'm hoping it's leading to bigger & better things for JoMo. The Smackdown title picture is incredibly stale (funny how fast that happened, Mr. Taker) so needs a fresh new babyface in there.
- No one expected Sheamus to win, and that's probably why they did it. I like it. He'll probably lose at No Way Out or the Rumble, but sometimes you've got to try something different. Not a Sheamus fan, but rock on.
- The Kingston/Orton thing cooled as soon as they had them fight on RAW in a regular match with no build and a f-finish. It's a damned shame. Orton winning clean boots Kofi down to midcard.
- I didn't expect DX to win the tag titles. I thought JeriShow would hold the belts until Edge came back, prompting the E&C reunion to take them on. I love how the Tag Titles are main event titles though. It gets guys like Shawn, Trips & Big Show out of the World Title pictures, leaving room for new blood like Sheamus to be seen as a legit Main Eventer. I really didn't think Shawn would be on Smackdown though. I thought Tuesdays was his day of worship or something.

[sabataged]

I think that it is a good starting point and maybe we will finally see some of the old guard step down.

The minute WCW closed down and Vince saw his "dream" of destroying every major North American promotion become a reality, was kind of when my interest in wrestling started to go down. Yes I watch TNA on a weekly basis and the quality of their show is no better but for some reason I enjoy TNA better.



You are right I do not know if it is true or not. However, I tend to believe it is so. Wrestling history is riddled with people in power pushing their friends. Dusty did it, Hogan did it, Vince has done it, so it is not outside the realm of possibility that it is not happening now. I could throw the same question your way as well, do you work backstage? Do you know beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is not happening?

This is true...friends of people higher up get the good spots on the card. Ed Leslie has made a career of this. But you're telling me the only reason this guy is World Champion is the fact that him and HHH hold hands and skip down the sidewalk? If that was true X-Pac would of been world champ at some point in time. Let's face it...Sheamus or however you spell the damn name came along at the right time and got lucky. He has an interesting look, and is talented at a time they are trying to establish new stars. He is pals with HHH so he gets the nod above guys like Swagger and Miz. Its a combination of many things...not just the fact that him and HHH stretch each other's hammy's before matches

[BHK1978]

Well like I have said in the past maybe it is because I always have and always will hate HHH (hell I didn't even like him when he was a jobber on WCW Saturday Night) that my judgement is clouded.:D

Maybe Vince sees something in Sheamus and that and that alone is the reason for Shamus' god push. I agree with you his interesting look probably had a lot to do with it. And I am a terrible judge of in ring talent, unless someone sucks I can not tell if they are good or not, so I could not comment on his in-ring talent.

[eayragt]

Sheamus might not be everyone's idea of a new champ, but surely now is the perfect time to try it out? At best he keeps it to The Royal Rumble, because that doesn't normally sell on the title matches, it sells on the Rumble. Even if Sheamus doesn't sell PPV's, they've got two other potential sells (Smackdown Title (I have no idea if it's the WWE Championship or World Heavyweight Championship) and Tag Title) for No Way Out.

[sabataged]

Sheamus might not be everyone's idea of a new champ, but surely now is the perfect time to try it out? At best he keeps it to The Royal Rumble, because that doesn't normally sell on the title matches, it sells on the Rumble. Even if Sheamus doesn't sell PPV's, they've got two other potential sells (Smackdown Title (I have no idea if it's the WWE Championship or World Heavyweight Championship) and Tag Title) for No Way Out.

No Way out is now Elimination Chamber...it will have two elimination chamber matches, 1 from raw and from SD!

[Stennick]

No Way out is now Elimination Chamber...it will have two elimination chamber matches, 1 from raw and from SD!

And I'll be there dammit! I may not know a single storyline but one thing I think I'll always enjoy is seeing pro wrestling in person. Plus Elimination Chamber in person no matter who's who seems like it should be fun.

[sabataged]

If Sheamus doesn't lose the title tonight on RAW I can see him losing it on January 4th when they go head to head against TNA. They might make the match tonight and hype it for a couple weeks so the kiddies want to see Cena win the title back instead of watching Hogan on TNA.