The Official TNA Discussion Thread

[Hashasheen]

Unlike their "war" with the WWE, this would at least be a battle that TNA could win. Possibly...

Quoting what I said on their Facebook page:

I've got a few things to get off my chest. You called your wrestlers who are going to jump to TNA sellouts. Why? Because they want better opportunities for their careers and are willing to risk it? TNA is hardly the WWE and their treatment ...of talent may be shoddy at best, but no one can dispute the fact that they are the no.2 fed in the USA, with an international presence most indy feds can only dream off. Even if Mercer or the others don't make it in TNA, they can still gain opportunities for working in Japan or Mexico, or even get recruited up to the WWE.

Secondly, you made the claim that 4 of your wrestlers got the huge opportunity to get into the WWE. Kaval and Daniel Bryan have worked across the world and its hardly thanks to AIW that they're in the WWE, while Derrik Bateman has yet to show much of anything to the WWE fans in general while he spent time in development, and Michael Tarver's been out for weeks out of a huge storyline because of injuries, and its not like they can't just release either one of them like they did Aloissa or Bryan (without a return). Hardly the major jump and push you've made it out to be.

[PeterHilton]

Yeah that's completely laughable that they would claim Bryan Danielson and LowKi as "AIW guys"

This ...

"If it was WWE, we would be in full support. That is a life-changing opportunity. TNA is just a move in a lateral direction, going from being part of a rapidly growing company to whatever TNA is—a wasteland of fedjects."

..is still pretty lol

I think that article is asinine btw..an indy fed no one except the hardest of hardcore wrestling fans has no business arguing whether or not it's a good move for someone to sign with a company like TNA, however mismanaged it may seem from the outside.

[Hashasheen]

Yeah that's completely laughable that they would claim Bryan Danielson and LowKi as "AIW guys"

This ...


..is still pretty lol

I think that article is asinine btw..an indy fed no one except the hardest of hardcore wrestling fans has no business arguing whether or not it's a good move for someone to sign with a company like TNA, however mismanaged it may seem from the outside.

So I've said on their Facebook account. They've backpedaled in response to me and said they were just venting out their frustrations. :rolleyes:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/Aiwrestling

[PeterHilton]

So I've said on their Facebook account. They've backpedaled in response to me and said they were just venting out their frustrations. :rolleyes:

http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#!/Aiwrestling

I saw and I responded to the article as well.

I just don't see how this writer can justify the commentary.

[Hyde Hill]

Nice publicity stunt by the AIW. Now piss off lolz.

[Hyde Hill]

I saw and I responded to the article as well.

I just don't see how this writer can justify the commentary.

Name you used in the response? As I always like to read your stuff, even if we don't always fully agree.

[Stennick]

I think I can count on one hand with fingers left over how many times I've disagreed with P.H in fact usually I want to say the same stuff he just says it in less words than I could....hell he probably could have summed up this post in less words. :(

For the record very few times have I seen P.H although maybe I should start calling you Jay Z :)

Very few times have I seen Jay Z get after somebody unless it needed to be said.

[PeterHilton]

Name you used in the response? As I always like to read your stuff, even if we don't always fully agree.

I posted under my real name, Javier Zuniga. The writer responded

Judging the quality of a wrestling promotion based off its exposure, the name recognition of its core talent and the places they perform (demonstrated briefly by your saying they look like little more than a backyard fed) is a pathetic quest of markdom for the WWE and TNA. WWE has built an empire; TNA bought one with Bob Carter's bank account. Companies like AIW are growing and building. Everyone starts somewhere. The company is young and has grown much in the past few years.

What about the small computer company Michael Dell started out of his college dorm room? What about the California restaurant started by the McDonald brothers that was later nationally franchised by Ray Kroc? What about the retail outlet that Sam Walton launched in Alabama? Businesses start somewhere, and part of that growth entails competing with bigger companies. That's what AIW is doing.

Thanks for your opinion.

I think he dodged the point of my response, which was that even if TNA is looked down upon by internet nerds, how is it a bad move for workers to make the jump there? They're still bigger than AIW and it's still a good career move.



For the record very few times have I seen P.H although maybe I should start calling you Jay Z :)

Very few times have I seen Jay Z get after somebody unless it needed to be said.

LOL..thanks...and yeah the PeterHilton screen name came about as a more polite version of a screen name I had on another wrestling site I wrote for a million years ago.

It still makes me laugh the first time someone gets a personal email from me and they're all "Wait..you're name isn't Peter!!!"

[jhd1]

It still makes me laugh the first time someone gets a personal email from me and they're all "Wait..you're name isn't Peter!!!"

I was more surprised that you don't wear a mask all the time. Or a hat. :p

[Stennick]

Peter your just not the "Javier" type. You strike me as more of Peter than Javier so I think you should strongly consider changing the name given to you by your parents its in the best interest of this board and how we view you :)

[liontamer]

Just getting back to the forums the last few days. If I understand the arguement correctly, I'm with you Peter/Javier.

Also, just jumping in to say that over the past few weeks I think TNA are heading in the right direction and am starting to get a definite WCW feel (form the good WCW days, not the crap at the end). I'm not quite to the point of being on board with everything they are doing, particularly some of the angles with the Pope.

That said, I think this has hardly been a carbon copy nWo, and while predictable, found the return of Dixie interesting. And with the angle with AJ this week, I think it's only a matter of time before fortune splits back out of the group (and I'm starting to wonder if Morgan really is still part of the group. I don't think so yet, but I'm getting suspicious). It's also refreshing to see that nearly everyone is now part of some sort of developing storyline.

As far as this week's show goes, I thought everything fit and made sense except for one thing- the main event (not to take anything from the match, it was good). Episode-timewise it fits in perfectly from last week. However, in real time, I'm a bit confused. I could be wrong, but if I understand correctly, TNA taped this weeks show on monday, next weeks on tuesday and the following two weeks on thursday and friday so the talent got off for the holidays (I didn't make it to FL, but had been planning to attend thurs and fri - which is why I think I understand this correctly).

Regardless of whether the injuries were real or not, why have that match on monday with three more shows and likely some planned matches involving them? I'd have put that on thurs or fri and built up to it just to reduce the risk of injury. That way it affects one or no episode(s) and they still have the long break to recover for the ppv.

[Hyde Hill]

I think, not sure, the injuries where sustained during the cage match not prior too it so that would make that point moot. Glad to see you are enjoying it LT. TNA still needs to do better to get me back though.

[liontamer]

I think, not sure, the injuries where sustained during the cage match not prior too it so that would make that point moot.

Not sure what you're agruing here. If they were legitimately injured during that match, that actually supports my point more.

[Hyde Hill]

Ah ok read it wrong. Well a cage match isn't considered that high risk any more is it? Plus it gives you more editing time if you do it earlier, I think that was the reasoning.

[thommohawk]

I haven't watched TNA for a few weeks, I stopped right around where they threw the TNA title in the trash....I felt they'd been below par for a few weeks and that point was it for me....have they improved any over the last few weeks ? I'm waiting for things to pick up before I jump back in. Sounds like it though return of Dixie, AJ possibly turning face and apparently a great cage match. Which is another thing right before I took a break I'd felt the in ring wrestling had taken a nosedive which is unusual for TNA, I felt Hogan's Heroes and Shore were getting way too much tv time and Kurt Angle etc were hardly getting any.

[ampulator]

I posted under my real name, Javier Zuniga. The writer responded



I think he dodged the point of my response, which was that even if TNA is looked down upon by internet nerds, how is it a bad move for workers to make the jump there? They're still bigger than AIW and it's still a good career move.




LOL..thanks...and yeah the PeterHilton screen name came about as a more polite version of a screen name I had on another wrestling site I wrote for a million years ago.

It still makes me laugh the first time someone gets a personal email from me and they're all "Wait..you're name isn't Peter!!!"

I agree with you mroe than he does. Everyone starts small, sure, but how many small comopanies actually make it? Not many.

[PoisonedSuperman]

Where do they think they are going with this "new" Pope? Back to being a heel? Whats the deal? I couldn't really figure it out with that promo.

[Wrestling Century]

Where do they think they are going with this "new" Pope? Back to being a heel? Whats the deal? I couldn't really figure it out with that promo.

I honestly have no idea. I thought that he was going to be turned into a type of "everything you do is a sin" type of heel, but then when he said "Pope is Pimping" at the end I got totally confused. I don't think that he would say that if he was turning heel.

[juggaloninjalee]

AIW AIW AIW AIW

LOL

Loved that article. I agree with the points about Brian Danielsons and Low Ki not being AIW guys.

Tarver got hurt. He still could be something alright in WWE. Bateman is on NXT. Still has a shot as well.

AIW did get quite a popularity boost from this stunt though. I'd check them out if they were nearby.

[PeterHilton]

AIW AIW AIW AIW

LOL

Loved that article. I agree with the points about Brian Danielsons and Low Ki not being AIW guys.

Tarver got hurt. He still could be something alright in WWE. Bateman is on NXT. Still has a shot as well.

AIW did get quite a popularity boost from this stunt though. I'd check them out if they were nearby.

What did you love? What points of his did you agree with? That TNA was trash and that people jumping from an indy fed to TNA are making a mistake because TNA is such a ****hole?

Considering how hard you defend TNA, I'm baffled :confused::confused::confused:

[juggaloninjalee]

What did you love? What points of his did you agree with? That TNA was trash and that people jumping from an indy fed to TNA are making a mistake because TNA is such a ****hole?

Considering how hard you defend TNA, I'm baffled :confused::confused::confused:

I don't agree with any of it. I love the fact that he is someone doing what he can to voice his opinions. I'm sure his opinion of TNA is much like the opinions of internet fans.

He is standing up for his indy fed. It was interesting to read.

[PeterHilton]

I don't agree with any of it. I love the fact that he is someone doing what he can to voice his opinions. I'm sure his opinion of TNA is much like the opinions of internet fans.

He is standing up for his indy fed. It was interesting to read.

I find that odd. That's all I can say.

You don't agree with anything he's saying, but you think it's great he's voicing his totally incorrect and unsupported opinion? Isn't that what message boards do?

[juggaloninjalee]

I find that odd. That's all I can say.

You don't agree with anything he's saying, but you think it's great he's voicing his totally incorrect and unsupported opinion? Isn't that what message boards do?

"TNA is not advancing a career. Have you watched their product? MULTIPLE guys on our roster and staff have been offered deals in the last week, so you can understand our frustrations."

Don't you guys bash how TNA uses people? Don't they ruin guys careers? Unless you are an old WCW guy or WWE reject you don't go far in TNA. This thread has repeated that over and over again. So how can you say the article is totally incorrect when you yourself has stated these points yourself.

"If it was WWE, we would be in full support. That is a life-changing opportunity. TNA is just a move in a lateral direction, going from being part of a rapidly growing company to whatever TNA is—a wasteland of fedjects."

I completely agree WWE is a life changing moment. I disagree that TNA isn't because I still think it would be a great accomplishment however if you do go to TNA that typically ends all momentum for an indy star.

[PeterHilton]

Don't you guys bash how TNA uses people? Don't they ruin guys careers? Unless you are an old WCW guy or WWE reject you don't go far in TNA. This thread has repeated that over and over again. So how can you say the article is totally incorrect when you yourself has stated these points yourself.

I do. I still think it's smarter to work for a national company than to work for a fed the size of AIW. I don't know about 'life-changing' but the guys with longterm deals who work for TNA don't exactly seem to be hurting for money the way I assume the guys who work primarily for AIW would be.

Doesn't that mean something?

I completely agree WWE is a life changing moment. I disagree that TNA isn't because I still think it would be a great accomplishment however if you do go to TNA that typically ends all momentum for an indy star.

And I would say you're wrong. Momentum or no...getting your work seen on national TV is a BIG move for a wrestler.

As i said: even if it's for a few weeks, you get seen by an audience that will NEVER see you if you're working for AIW. Which means you can now work in more areas, and ask for a higher booking fee.

I just wonder if you asked these guys that are being told they are 'selling out' by leaving AIW how they felt, what they would say...

And again: I don't get you. You defend TNA because you say you love wrestling, but then you support the AIW side of the argument because..TNA sucks? What's the deal there? And I'm not trying to attack you, I just kind of wonder if this is one of those "i support the little guy no matter what' deals...

[PeterHilton]

Also, I bother me that the writer attacks TNA for bringing in wrestlers who made their name in other companies, and then riding that fame, and not pushing their homegrown stars...

..and then AIW makes a HUGE deal out of Danielson and Low Ki being members of their roster.

Isn't that EXACTLY the same thing? Danielson and Ki didn't make their name at AIW. At all. Not even close. Bragging that they are appearing on the card is one thing, but bragging that they are 'alumni making it big in WWE'?

Laughable.

[juggaloninjalee]

Also, I bother me that the writer attacks TNA for bringing in wrestlers who made their name in other companies, and then riding that fame, and not pushing their homegrown stars...

..and then AIW makes a HUGE deal out of Danielson and Low Ki being members of their roster.

Isn't that EXACTLY the same thing? Danielson and Ki didn't make their name at AIW. At all. Not even close. Bragging that they are appearing on the card is one thing, but bragging that they are 'alumni making it big in WWE'?

Laughable.

Yes AIW is guilty of the same thing. I completely agree. By saying I liked that article though it doesn't mean I agree with it. I interpret it as he feels betrayed by guys going for the quick buck in TNA. Selling out is going somewhere for the money. You even said going to TNA is going to pay you better. I don't think there is anything wrong with that at all.

It even helps them as indy wrestlers if things don't work out in TNA. They go back to AIW and get billed as former TNA star John Noname or whatever.

He has a relationship with these guys who are leaving for TNA. He may feel in some cases that they could do better than TNA by striving for WWE and not settling for TNA. Plus he is mad that they left him. I can see why the guy feels the way he does. Doesn't mean I agree though.

[PeterHilton]

Got it.

And yeah, he obviously has some kind of personal connection, but to me that makes for a weak editorial because his argument is so flawed.

He's just a fanboy writing a fanboy article. And I can read that anywhere.

[The Final Countdown]

OK, I'm late to the party. Just read the article, and some of the comments. Wow.

I'm still laughing over the idea that going from AIW, a company I'd never heard of 10 minutes ago, to TNA, a company that has international TV exposure, could possibly be termed a "lateral move", or even a DOWNGRADE. That is such an absurd thing to say.

[Hitman23]

so I just read that the reason TNA released Hamada was because it as costing them 1000 to fly her to Impact tapings. IMO that is a ok reason I can see how that could get expensive

[PoisonedSuperman]

Damn a thousand dollars to fly her in? There has to be a cheaper alternitive. I"m not a fan of womans wrestling, not at all but I'm sure there's someone in america who is as talented or close as Hamada and won't even cost that much to appear and fly in.

[thommohawk]

I guarantee to you anybody that says TNA is trash is trolling because 100% guaranteed they'll DVR Gen Me vs MCMG matches and AJ vs Angle matches etc....selective viewing....and how anybody can watch those matches and still honestly say TNA is trash well they are simply trolling....or are dumb WWE fanboys completely ignorant of everything that isn't branded WWE.


so I just read that the reason TNA released Hamada was because it as costing them 1000 to fly her to Impact tapings. IMO that is a ok reason I can see how that could get expensive

If they really want to cut the wage bill they should let go of Hogan, he is serving no purpose - he hasn't brought the ratings in and he's not entertaining. At least Bischoff serves some purpose behind the scenes and is a good heel.

[Hashasheen]

If they really want to cut the wage bill they should let go of Hogan, he is serving no purpose - he hasn't brought the ratings in and he's not entertaining. At least Bischoff serves some purpose behind the scenes and is a good heel.

He serves a purpose, as much as I dislike it. He's gotten TNA television deals across more than a few countries since he signed on, since Hogan is still ****ing huge abroad in places like France, the Middle East and Japan, etc...

[Stennick]

I guarantee to you anybody that says TNA is trash is trolling because 100% guaranteed they'll DVR Gen Me vs MCMG matches and AJ vs Angle matches etc....selective viewing....and how anybody can watch those matches and still honestly say TNA is trash well they are simply trolling....or are dumb WWE fanboys completely ignorant of everything that isn't branded WWE.

If they really want to cut the wage bill they should let go of Hogan, he is serving no purpose - he hasn't brought the ratings in and he's not entertaining. At least Bischoff serves some purpose behind the scenes and is a good heel.

I'm telling you right now I swear on my entire family I haven't watch one MINUTE of iMpact since Bound for Glory. Not DVR, not live, I've read some results that have been posted around the web but thats virtually unavoidable.

Also Gen Me vs. MCMG is crap wrestilng. I saw a guy take a GERMAN SUPLEX from the top rope and kick out IMMEDIATLY! Thats not wrestling, their matches have no story and its just big move after big move after big move. When you open the show (BFG) with a german suplex from the TOP ROPE and an IMMEDIATE cover not finishing a match thats just stupid. That spoor ring psychology and an even poorer story telling.

Its not the kind of wrestling I enjoy. I enjoy the wrestling where people work on telling a story in the ring.

Watching Highlights Gen Me did a top rope double team 450 splash onto MCMG, then MCMG did a top rope german suplex that didn't end it but a super neck breaker did? I'm sorry but thats just lame. I remember people freaking out calling this match of the year. Jerry Lawler vs. The Miz was a better match as far as psychology and story telling than this.

So don't come on here saying that if you don't like TNA or if you don't like this match you're a troll. In fact I'd say its trolling to come on here and say "there is no way you can't like this and if you don't you're an idiot".

When Hogan turned heel at BFG I said it was stupid, I said I didn't like it, but I never said others were stupid and weren't allowed to like it. I'm sorry that a bunch of flippy floppy moves that make no sense and have no lasting effect fifteen seconds later is your idea of a great match its just not mine.

[Hyde Hill]

Lolz at the Hogan comment. Just looking at the US television rating's are we and even those are slightly up if you take the monday night skirmish and rebuild out of the equation? Can they use Hogan in a smarter and better way? Yes. Should they release him? Nope. Is he being paid more then he has delivered? Probably.

[Hyde Hill]

He serves a purpose, as much as I dislike it. He's gotten TNA television deals across more than a few countries since he signed on, since Hogan is still ****ing huge abroad in places like France, the Middle East and Japan, etc...

Hehe posted at the same time.

[Hyde Hill]

I guarantee to you anybody that says TNA is trash is trolling because 100% guaranteed they'll DVR Gen Me vs MCMG matches and AJ vs Angle matches etc....selective viewing....and how anybody can watch those matches and still honestly say TNA is trash well they are simply trolling....or are dumb WWE fanboys completely ignorant of everything that isn't branded WWE.


Or purist/ psychology fans like Stennick. Nothing wrong with that mind you.

[Stennick]

I'm not saying they don't serve their purpose but its not an OMG five star classic and its not "OMG check these guys out and just watch TNA for them"

Isn't that EVERY indy tag match in the world these days? Seriously couldn't I watch Dragon Gate and get just as cool of a tag team match?

MCMG are not that great of a tag team. I said it, they have no character. Why are they the Motor City Machine Guns? Their from Detroit.....and um?

What is their character? What motivates these guys? They have been a tag team for what three years and I can count on one hand how many times these guys have cut a promo.

Their pretty good wrestlers and thats why I should like them? Even without the promos what stories have they told me in the ring? What memorable feuds have they had? Alex Shelly on the other hand in 2005 was OOZING charisma and could have long since been at the top of the card. His skits with Nash were the funniest crap ever. His goofy hair, his ****y, creative wrestling.

MCMG are no better than any other indy tag team on the planet same as Gen Me. Their both, bland, characterless tag teams who I have no motivation to watch. Neither has ever cut a promo or been in a feud that made me say "oh man I'm rooting for these guys because of this".....their good wrestlers thats why I should like them?

Sorry but on national T.V I need more than "hey these guys do good wrestling matches".

[Hitman23]

I'm not saying they don't serve their purpose but its not an OMG five star classic and its not "OMG check these guys out and just watch TNA for them"

Isn't that EVERY indy tag match in the world these days? Seriously couldn't I watch Dragon Gate and get just as cool of a tag team match?

MCMG are not that great of a tag team. I said it, they have no character. Why are they the Motor City Machine Guns? Their from Detroit.....and um?

What is their character? What motivates these guys? They have been a tag team for what three years and I can count on one hand how many times these guys have cut a promo.

Their pretty good wrestlers and thats why I should like them? Even without the promos what stories have they told me in the ring? What memorable feuds have they had? Alex Shelly on the other hand in 2005 was OOZING charisma and could have long since been at the top of the card. His skits with Nash were the funniest crap ever. His goofy hair, his ****y, creative wrestling.

MCMG are no better than any other indy tag team on the planet same as Gen Me. Their both, bland, characterless tag teams who I have no motivation to watch. Neither has ever cut a promo or been in a feud that made me say "oh man I'm rooting for these guys because of this".....their good wrestlers thats why I should like them?

Sorry but on national T.V I need more than "hey these guys do good wrestling matches".

How do you feel about Beer Money/MCMG matches?

[PeterHilton]

To be fair, this...

I guarantee to you anybody that says TNA is trash is trolling because 100% guaranteed they'll DVR Gen Me vs MCMG matches and AJ vs Angle matches etc....selective viewing....and how anybody can watch those matches and still honestly say TNA is trash well they are simply trolling....or are dumb WWE fanboys completely ignorant of everything that isn't branded WWE.

..is like 99.9% of thommohawk comments which is why most of the time no one debates him. ALso..

If they really want to cut the wage bill they should let go of Hogan, he is serving no purpose - he hasn't brought the ratings in and he's not entertaining. At least Bischoff serves some purpose behind the scenes and is a good heel.

..he clearly doesn't understand some of the business aspects of rasslin' which is why he refers to anyone who doesn't lose their mind for everything TNA does as 'WWEtard'

[Stennick]

I like Beer Money as a tag team. I'm not saying that there aren't the "OMG" moments in their feuds but the matches are much more grounded in reality.

[BHK1978]

I just read that Jeff Hardy almost lost the TNA Title at the airport. I mean I know he is the champion and all but they should really have someone more responsible carrying the title around the country. Better yet just leave it in Orlando. I think the last person I would want carrying around the title from airport to airport is the drug addled Jeff Hardy. Heck he might try to pawn the thing for money.:eek:

[juggaloninjalee]

Hogan is the face of TNA for people not familiar with wrestling. He is more of a marketing tool than anything and it's been working.

Personally I love the MCMG. Enjoyed most matches by them. The MCMG vs Beer Money matches were good.

Alex Shelley is obviously the more charismatic of the two guys. Some would argue Chris Sabin is the better wrestler. Together I like them though.

[Self]

I'm not saying they don't serve their purpose but its not an OMG five star classic and its not "OMG check these guys out and just watch TNA for them"

Isn't that EVERY indy tag match in the world these days? Seriously couldn't I watch Dragon Gate and get just as cool of a tag team match?

MCMG are not that great of a tag team. I said it, they have no character. Why are they the Motor City Machine Guns? Their from Detroit.....and um?

What is their character? What motivates these guys? They have been a tag team for what three years and I can count on one hand how many times these guys have cut a promo.

Their pretty good wrestlers and thats why I should like them? Even without the promos what stories have they told me in the ring? What memorable feuds have they had? Alex Shelly on the other hand in 2005 was OOZING charisma and could have long since been at the top of the card. His skits with Nash were the funniest crap ever. His goofy hair, his ****y, creative wrestling.

MCMG are no better than any other indy tag team on the planet same as Gen Me. Their both, bland, characterless tag teams who I have no motivation to watch. Neither has ever cut a promo or been in a feud that made me say "oh man I'm rooting for these guys because of this".....their good wrestlers thats why I should like them?

Sorry but on national T.V I need more than "hey these guys do good wrestling matches".

Being a lover of flippy-floppy wrestling, I'm not as harsh a critic of these guys at Stennick is, but both those teams could do with some character development, that's for sure. They've had generic 50/50 'feuds', but never anything to sink their teeth into and make the crowd care about them for anything other than 'OMG flipz'. I watch and enjoy plenty of that style in Dragon Gate and PWG, so when it comes to weekly episodic television, I need story to go with my spot monkeys. I need characters to suck me in. Motor City Machine Guns have only ever shown me glimpses of that, and Generation Me have shown me nothing. I'll still download the occasional match of theirs if it receives rave reviews, but MCMG and Gen Me aren't exactly special attractions to me.

[Hive]

I just read that Jeff Hardy almost lost the TNA Title at the airport. I mean I know he is the champion and all but they should really have someone more responsible carrying the title around the country. Better yet just leave it in Orlando. I think the last person I would want carrying around the title from airport to airport is the drug addled Jeff Hardy. Heck he might try to pawn the thing for money.:eek:

He probably just had it in his luggage which is not uncommon for an airline to misplace from time to time.

Sure, Jeff is a drughead - but do we know this was actually his fault?

[Condors]

I had not watched an impact for 5 weeks (got 5 episodes on the dvr) so i figure i have some time lets look at what i have missed.

ummm I may not be their target audience but are the ratings up for this stuff?

I liked TNA a few months ago much better than the TNA of today.

I will still check them out but they are getting lower on my to watch list.

[The Final Countdown]

Alex Shelly on the other hand in 2005 was OOZING charisma and could have long since been at the top of the card. His skits with Nash were the funniest crap ever. His goofy hair, his ****y, creative wrestling
I didn't see much of Shelley's stuff with Nash, but I've always felt that he could be GREAT on his own. I loved him as a heel in ROH; he, to me, is what made Generation Next work, and helped fellow members Austin Aries and Roderick Strong get over. As much as I enjoy watching the MCMGs, I hope TNA will give Shelley a legitimate chance as a singles heel one day.

[BHK1978]

He probably just had it in his luggage which is not uncommon for an airline to misplace from time to time.

Sure, Jeff is a drughead - but do we know this was actually his fault?

Yeah it was just a joke (a poor one at that).:) I mean he really did lose the title but the rest of what I said was me joking about his "demons".

[Stennick]

Heck wasn't it TNA that was "Hail Sabin!" and the guy was the X Division champion and being pushed to the very top of the X Division and the company?

I would understand if they had nothing for either of these guys to do but as I said Shelly had gotten over HUGE with the Nash stuff but then they seemingly went in a different direction and somebody in there didn't think Shelly had what it took to be a singles star.

So they put these guys together.....whatever thats fine but WHAT have they done. For all this talk of the MCMG tell me for the love of God WHAT have they done? They had a best of seven with Beer Money.....ok and? You mean they put on some really good wrestling matches? Thats fine but why do I care about them as a team? Because their good wrestlers? What more motivation do I have than that? What epic feuds have they had? They faced the Dudleys, Beer Money, Gen Me and out of all of that they are on the exact same spot on the card as before.

I don't watch TNA every week to see JUST good wrestling. Sure it helps but I can also forgive bad wrestling for good story telling. If I purely wanted to see the flip flop stuff or purely mat work I'd watch DGUSA or ROH.

So yeah forgive me if I say that the MCMG's are not only bland and boring as far as giving off any sort of real charisma but atleast Shelly is being wasted. Although I'm of the firm belief that Alex Shelly has helped keep Sabin employed since I've never seen that guy do anything other than what he's doing in MCMG.

[The Final Countdown]

I completely agree with you, Stennick. While the Guns have put on entertaining matches, very little has ever been done to give them substance or character from what I've seen. That's probably why I consider the Kings of Wrestling, rather than the MCMG, the best team in wrestling currently: they put on great matches, but that isn't all they're about.

I'm not sure now is the best time for Shelley to go solo; with such a heavy focus on Immortal, there doesn't seem to be much room for too many other heels to establish themselves. But maybe one day.

[Stennick]

Shelly is only 27 so if they do something he might still get a shot.

[PoisonedSuperman]

This isn't TEW... 3 fueds later they aren't going from bottom of the card to main event status. Chris Sabin was one of the main fixtures in early TNA, maybe he does backstage work? Maybe its out of loyalty that they keep him. If you say you haven't seen him do anything other then his MCMG work then how can you say anything about him? Not that I'm a huge fan of him or the guns but still it seems a little short sighted.

[jwt13]

The only solo Sabain feud I rember in TNA was with Bob Buckland in like 05 and he lost the X division title to him at one point didnt he?

[Self]

I'd love to see the Guns go solo for a while. I don't want them to split up, keep the friendship in the show to some degree, but have them transition into other things to develop their personalities on their own. It would mix things up, I mean, we're already back to them fighting Beer Money, and Gen Me were hardly fresh opponents. Give Shelley a singles push. Link Sabin up with the Beautiful People for a bit, see if anything sparks there. It's like how I think Edge & Christian would be 100 times better nowadays than they were originally, because over the last decade they've evolved into distinct personalities, whereas before they were largely the same bloke, only one was taller.

Based purely on the "Dangers of Beer Money" PSA they did a while ago, I think MCMG have got the personality, but TNA have failed to properly showcase it. Give them a minute or two every episode to do some stuff. Put together some videos of them doing stuff. Delve into their past, kayfabe or otherwise.

Back when I first got into TNA (which brought me back to wrestling after a 3 year hiatus) Shelley and Sabin, as singles X-Division guys, were the two I really gravitated towards. So there's something to them, for me at least. Popped for "Hail Sabin" every time.

[juggaloninjalee]

I'd love to see the Guns go solo for a while. I don't want them to split up, keep the friendship in the show to some degree, but have them transition into other things to develop their personalities on their own. It would mix things up, I mean, we're already back to them fighting Beer Money, and Gen Me were hardly fresh opponents. Give Shelley a singles push. Link Sabin up with the Beautiful People for a bit, see if anything sparks there. It's like how I think Edge & Christian would be 100 times better nowadays than they were originally, because over the last decade they've evolved into distinct personalities, whereas before they were largely the same bloke, only one was taller.

Based purely on the "Dangers of Beer Money" PSA they did a while ago, I think MCMG have got the personality, but TNA have failed to properly showcase it. Give them a minute or two every episode to do some stuff. Put together some videos of them doing stuff. Delve into their past, kayfabe or otherwise.

Back when I first got into TNA (which brought me back to wrestling after a 3 year hiatus) Shelley and Sabin, as singles X-Division guys, were the two I really gravitated towards. So there's something to them, for me at least. Popped for "Hail Sabin" every time.

Shelley has shown personality. He ran with Nash for a minute doing the paparazzi thing. Even before that he had character. People liked him then and now TNA doesn't utilize his personality much. They try to push everyone as serious and normal (bland) people these days.

[jwt13]

A source at Hulk Hogan's wedding spoke to TMZ about the fight that broke out.

They said a security guard and family friend named Ron Howard approached a photographer, Robert Martinez, and asked him to leave. Martinez refused and then put his forearm on Howard's throat and yelled, "I'm packing a gun." This turned into a fight and someone at the wedding called police.

Martinez' video camera was apparently recording during the incident, and police reviewed the footage when they arrived. Martinez was not arrested, but police said they were planning to speak to Howard again.

Only at Hogans wedding. Also Ron Howard isnt that Opie from the Andy Griffith Show :p he must need money bad lol;)

[cappyboy]

Only at Hogans wedding. Also Ron Howard isnt that Opie from the Andy Griffin Show :p he must need money bad lol;)

Andy WHO?!!

I know Andy GRIFFITH and if that's what you mean then yes, the Ron Howard that comes to mind did start there. But I don't know anything about any Andy Griffin.

[jwt13]

Andy WHO?!!

I know Andy GRIFFITH and if that's what you mean then yes, the Ron Howard that comes to mind did start there. But I don't know anything about any Andy Griffin.

My bad on the spelling I'll edit that:o

[cappyboy]

It happens, man. On the the up side, I've been wanting to do some serious writing for ages now. Like try to get published and sell on Amazon type writing. With that typo, you've given me a new name to want to play with. What if "Andy Griffin" hears that misconnection a lot? What if it bugs him and how far does he take that fact? There could be material in that.

[Stennick]

Only at Hogans wedding. Also Ron Howard isnt that Opie from the Andy Griffith Show :p he must need money bad lol;)

Cocoon, Apollo 13, A Beautiful Mind, Far and Away, The Da Vinci Code, Angels and Demons....he's directed all of those and them some.

I get the Ron Howard joke but unless you're my grandmothers age and Opie and Anthony reference doesn't really work ;)

[Wrestling Century]

This isn't TEW... 3 fueds later they aren't going from bottom of the card to main event status. Chris Sabin was one of the main fixtures in early TNA, maybe he does backstage work? Maybe its out of loyalty that they keep him. If you say you haven't seen him do anything other then his MCMG work then how can you say anything about him? Not that I'm a huge fan of him or the guns but still it seems a little short sighted.

If TNA keep people hired out of "loyalty", then why did they fire Christopher Daniels?

[dvdWarrior]

I just watched StarrCade 2000 on WWE Classics On Demand, and the first half of it did feel an awful lot like a TNA-styled show. A three-way tag team triple ladder match, featuring three tag teams vying for a shot at a singles championship on the next night's Nitro, (which probably ended up being that Nitro's opening contest). A tag team match that was overshadowed by the "who paid off KroniK?" gimmick, replete with tons of outside activity, (Reno & Vito's "sister" being tipped off as a suspect, then the Natural Born Thrillers appearing on stage to add to the mix, all before it was revealed that it was Reno himself, (one of Kronik's opponents) that had done the deed). And the 137-year old Terry Funk taking home the glory against who was at the time a rising young (hopeful) star, Crow Bar.

Not saying it was a bad show, it just felt an awful lot like today's TNA. Even the ring set-up looked the same, (except for there being far more people, and the ropes and mat being a different color).

My point, (and I do have one): TNA DOES INDEED feel an awful lot like WCW did right there at the end.

Note: For the record, I very much like and respect Terry Funk, I just made mention of the age thing for the point of this whole comment.

[Slagaholic]

Nothing you wrote reminded me of TNA.

I think you went into it, or very early in the show thought it felt like a TNA show and from there on made light comparisons into glaring similarities.

Sure some of it will look like TNA, many of the same guys behind Starrcade 2000 write TNA today.

[Slagaholic]

Ummm...is it just me or does Rob Terry look even BIGGER now?

[Slagaholic]

I ****ing love Double MA Double J.

[juggaloninjalee]

I hate Double J Double M A. The fan did a poor job of acting and they should watch a little bit of UFC or any MMA before doing these. Have the kid pass out fairly quick and don't have Jarrett punching the kid in the back of the head. It just annoyed me.

Rob Terry annoys me too.

Maybe tonight I wasn't feeling as open minded as usual but oh well.

I mark for Mr Anderson. Reminds me a little bit of Steve Austin mixed with the Rock. Not as good as them but a hint of it.

[dvdWarrior]

Nothing you wrote reminded me of TNA.

I think you went into it, or very early in the show thought it felt like a TNA show and from there on made light comparisons into glaring similarities.

Sure some of it will look like TNA, many of the same guys behind Starrcade 2000 write TNA today.

You could be write about that.

Just for the record, I didn't mean that I didn't enjoy the Starrcade show or that I don't like TNA; I enjoyed the show just fine, and I'm OK with TNA too lately.

For the most part.

Just felt there were some similarities is all, guess I tend to ramble on a bit when I write.

:o

[liontamer]

So where in the storylines did we get Doug Williams sharing a trailer/'locker room' with madison and tara?

[Hyde Hill]

Bischoff goes Medi- evil on a guy during the guy's podcast after he called bisch out after the guy made some comments on Bisch's facebook page. Quite entertaining.

http://www.blogtalkradio.com/michaelbarton/2010/12/18/episode-003--wrestling-mma-radio--covering-all-the

[Hyde Hill]

BTW for those who don't bother to listen Bisch did unequivically state that TNA is profitable atm. (As I suspected).

[pate]

That radio guy was a moron.

[Blackman]

BTW for those who don't bother to listen Bisch did unequivically state that TNA is profitable atm. (As I suspected).

Well duh. They underpay their workers, yadayada,... I currently hate them. And I hate noone else atm, except maybe people who kill bunnies. Mf'ers.

[Hyde Hill]

Underpay? Oh please you really believe that BS?

[LordJaguar]

Well duh. They underpay their workers, yadayada,... I currently hate them. And I hate noone else atm, except maybe people who kill bunnies. Mf'ers.

Who is to say what someone in that buisness deserves to be paid?

[Hashasheen]

Underpay? Oh please you really believe that BS?

http://www.cagesideseats.com/2010/9/29/1719902/an-examination-of-tnas-appalling-treatment-of-talent

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/total-nonstop-action-wrestling/490790-backstage-details-how-much-money-tna-knockouts-earn-per-appearance.html

[Basmat01]

Could it be that the talent are just living above there means? I mean 35 grand a year to just work 3-4 days a month. Some people work 50 hours a week and wont even make that.

there are wrestlers out there who are just as talented that wrestle for 20 bucks

Most people move to be closer to there job its not TNAs fault that some decide to live on the other side of the country when they do most of thier TV tapings and PPVs in the one place

I remember reading a interview a while back with a Footballer that plays for LA galaxy that while David Beckham is making all the money. He is only on 19,000 a year as a full time footballer and is still able to make a living from it

[Hyde Hill]

http://www.cagesideseats.com/2010/9/29/1719902/an-examination-of-tnas-appalling-treatment-of-talent

http://www.wrestlingforum.com/total-nonstop-action-wrestling/490790-backstage-details-how-much-money-tna-knockouts-earn-per-appearance.html

Quote from one of the articles:

of course, reports from credible news sources like The Wrestling Observer, the F4W Newsletter and the Pro Wrestling Torch newsletter.

Yeah I have my reservations. The only thing TNA could be guilty of is that the office makes mistakes as it pertains to letting workers do indy dates. Plus I agree with Lord Jaguar.

[Self]

I remember reading a interview a while back with a Footballer that plays for LA galaxy that while David Beckham is making all the money. He is only on 19,000 a year as a full time footballer and is still able to make a living from it

David Beckham made a ton of money back when he was in his prime, and still rakes in money from advertising, selling pictures of his kids, and sitting on the bench looking annoyed during World Cup games. I'd be stunned if he isn't set for life already.

The TNA "underpaid" argument... There is evidence out there that TNA don't pay certain members on their roster enough to make a living (Taylor Wilde's eBay exploits and Sunglasses job spring to mind) but I guess the counter-argument is "Do they have a responsibility to?" It's a wrestling gig, where you work a couple of days a month. Perhaps you shouldn't expect to earn a full-time wage unless you're an honest-to-goodness star. While typical TV shows pay their actors a living wage, is that true all the way down the card? From the star to the extra who has a line or two every 6 episodes?

TNA charging for 'their' guys and gals to work other indy dates is... understandable when it comes to dudes of a certain level; a much as I'd like to see MCMG on every PWG show, they have developed a certain reputation as TNA guys, are an in-demand act around the world, and are an important part of the TNA brand they wouldn't want getting hurt elsewhere. However, when you're talking about lower-level wrestlers, who aren't as important to the show, who aren't earning a hell of a lot in TNA, and for whom the extra fee will likely not get them booked... Another issue. From a purely selfish standpoint I hate it, but I can see the other side.

[LordJaguar]

I hate to say it but I believe TNA may be "right" on some of this. Wrestling was never meant to be a huge pay off, in fact many wrestlers of the earlier eras held other jobs outside of the buisness. Angelo Poffo, the father of Lenny Poffo and Macho MAn was a gym teacher by day and wrestler by night. The problem it seems is that WWE and WCW has spoiled the "average" wrestler into thinking they somehow deserve to be set for life. In other professional sports the guys riding the bench and just filling a spot do not have multi million dollar deals.

As far as charging for indy bookings...think of it in terms of brand protection. Even if these people are not used on TNA TV they are booked as TNA Talent and if they lose then TNA would look bad to the average, non-smart mark, casual fan.

[Fantabulous]

One of the power players in a national wrestling promotion calls into a podcast that, by the hosts own admission, has maybe 20 listeners, and proceeds to get into a pissing contest with said host where the ratio of insults slung to facts presented was roughly a gazillion to one. How, exactly, do either of them come off well?

[PeterHilton]

Could it be that the talent are just living above there means? I mean 35 grand a year to just work 3-4 days a month. Some people work 50 hours a week and wont even make that.

I remember reading a interview a while back with a Footballer that plays for LA galaxy that while David Beckham is making all the money. He is only on 19,000 a year as a full time footballer and is still able to make a living from it

OK I don't know what your personal idea of 'making a living is' but 19 K isn't even what someone would make off of a year on unemployment here in CA. I think that's a bad example.


The TNA "underpaid" argument... There is evidence out there that TNA don't pay certain members on their roster enough to make a living (Taylor Wilde's eBay exploits and Sunglasses job spring to mind) but I guess the counter-argument is "Do they have a responsibility to?" It's a wrestling gig, where you work a couple of days a month. Perhaps you shouldn't expect to earn a full-time wage unless you're an honest-to-goodness star.

This is a fair argument except that TNA does this..

TNA charging for 'their' guys and gals to work other indy dates is...

I think it's completely unfair that a wrestling company treats it's employees like 'independent contractors,' pays them less based on their place on the card, then includes provisions in their contract that essentially makes them exclusive employees

I hate to say it but I believe TNA may be "right" on some of this. Wrestling was never meant to be a huge pay off, in fact many wrestlers of the earlier eras held other jobs outside of the buisness. The problem it seems is that WWE and WCW has spoiled the "average" wrestler into thinking they somehow deserve to be set for life.

This is a ridiculous argument. Who cares what happened in 'earlier eras'? This would be like an NFL owner today saying "well I'm not going to pay my players these salaries. After all, Sammy Baugh had to sell insurance in the offseason."

Increased salary expectations is a part of the modernization of the industry. it's not 'being spoiled.' It's called 'wanting to earn a fair wage in an industry where your health is at risk.'

In other professional sports the guys riding the bench and just filling a spot do not have multi million dollar deals.

2010 League Minimum Salary (roughly) for..

MLB: $390 K
NFL: $310 K
NBA: $408 K
NHL: $500 K

Even the guys on the bench make a living.

[Hyde Hill]

One of the power players in a national wrestling promotion calls into a podcast that, by the hosts own admission, has maybe 20 listeners, and proceeds to get into a pissing contest with said host where the ratio of insults slung to facts presented was roughly a gazillion to one. How, exactly, do either of them come off well?

Did you actually listen to it and followed the actual postings this guy made on facebook? Look bisch took 15 minutes out of his day to school a typical smark in the bad sense of the word. Calling someone a moron does not a pissing contest make. Bisch just really dislikes these kind of smarks and if he is in the mood to vent and is called out in the way he was he will respond.

[Hyde Hill]

OK I don't know what your personal idea of 'making a living is' but 19 K isn't even what someone would make off of a year on unemployment here in CA. I think that's a bad example.



This is a fair argument except that TNA does this..



I think it's completely unfair that a wrestling company treats it's employees like 'independent contractors,' pays them less based on their place on the card, then includes provisions in their contract that essentially makes them exclusive employees



This is a ridiculous argument. Who cares what happened in 'earlier eras'? This would be like an NFL owner today saying "well I'm not going to pay my players these salaries. After all, Sammy Baugh had to sell insurance in the offseason."

Increased salary expectations is a part of the modernization of the industry. it's not 'being spoiled.' It's called 'wanting to earn a fair wage in an industry where your health is at risk.'



2010 League Minimum Salary (roughly) for..

MLB: $390 K
NFL: $310 K
NBA: $408 K
NHL: $500 K

Even the guys on the bench make a living.

And now compare the total income of those leagues + teams divided by players with TNA's estimated total income and divide it by workers.

Essentially those TNA employees are exclusive talent but they can get subcontracted where a part of the fee goes to TNA. Nothing weird with this.

[PeterHilton]

And now compare the total income of those leagues + teams divided by players with TNA's estimated total income and divide it by workers.

Essentially those TNA employees are exclusive talent but they can get subcontracted where a part of the fee goes to TNA. Nothing weird with this.

Hyde, that's not the point. Obviously TNA's minimum shouldn't be 500 K. But 35 K a year in an industry where you have no insurance and have to cover all your travel and housing expenses is garbage. And that's not counting taxes.

So..let's say that's less than 3 K a month...that means that a lot of their workers (say, the ones that moved to Orlando to be closer to the TV tapings) are probably losing money on their house show swings.

And i do think it's 'weird' that a piece of the action is going to TNA. Because - to me - that kind of arrangement makes you an employee which would guarantee certain things in terms of liability that TNA doesn't provide. This is just an 'imo' because the WWE does the same thing with it's interpretation of 'independent contractor' so it's probably not changing any time soon.

[LordJaguar]

One thing we need to realize is that other sports have competitive contracts. In wrestling there is only WWE than slide down to TNA then go all the way down to Indies. (Majors, AAA, College) in baseball terms. TNA has no way to compete with WWE type salaries and can go as low as "just above" indy pay offs.

Also I do believe all sports players are grossly over paid for doing less work than the average person.

[PeterHilton]

Yeah I have my reservations. The only thing TNA could be guilty of is that the office makes mistakes as it pertains to letting workers do indy dates. Plus I agree with Lord Jaguar.

Also..I read through that article. And you may not like the rag-sheets but there were also first person interviews and well documented examples given at for every point that was brought up.

TNA doesn't pay for medical procedures resulting from injuries. They don't. And you can defend every other decision TNA makes in terms of who they pay and why, but I think it's totally unethical for a 'national' company to force it's workers to pay out of pocket their surgery costs.

[LordJaguar]

I work for a Global Steel company and they do not pay for any surgery I need willy nilly. Unless I am hurt at work due to some fault of the company guess whose pocket it is coming out of?

[PeterHilton]

Also I do believe all sports players are grossly over paid for doing less work than the average person.

:rolleyes:

You can't get ten thousand people to go pay $80 a ticket to watch the average person to do their job.

Welcome to the entertainment industry.

[PeterHilton]

I work for a Global Steel company and they do not pay for any surgery I need willy nilly. Unless I am hurt at work due to some fault of the company guess whose pocket it is coming out of?

Ummmmm....not to point out the obvious....but an athletic performer who injures himself while performing is 'at work' and the liability does actually belong to the company holding the event.

[Hyde Hill]

Hyde, that's not the point. Obviously TNA's minimum shouldn't be 500 K. But 35 K a year in an industry where you have no insurance and have to cover all your travel and housing expenses is garbage. And that's not counting taxes.

So..let's say that's less than 3 K a month...that means that a lot of their workers (say, the ones that moved to Orlando to be closer to the TV tapings) are probably losing money on their house show swings.

And i do think it's 'weird' that a piece of the action is going to TNA. Because - to me - that kind of arrangement makes you an employee which would guarantee certain things in terms of liability that TNA doesn't provide. This is just an 'imo' because the WWE does the same thing with it's interpretation of 'independent contractor' so it's probably not changing any time soon.

Ok that is something different as that is industry wide and I agree with you.

Also who is to say that that is not just their base salary? And they don't get paid more for the house shows and get a slice of merchandise etc. Same as the E system. That is also the problem with becoming employees according to Foley. Kiss your royalties goodbye.

[LordJaguar]

Ummmmm....not to point out the obvious....but an athletic performer who injures himself while performing is 'at work' and the liability does actually belong to the company holding the event.

Maybe you missed the part of being the FAULT of the company...IE if the ring collapses then TNA should pay. If Hardy decides to dive off a ladder and snaps his neck...Hardy's fault really...(Unless TNA makes him do it)

[PeterHilton]

Maybe you missed the part of being the FAULT of the company...IE if the ring collapses then TNA should pay. If Hardy decides to dive off a ladder and snaps his neck...Hardy's fault really...(Unless TNA makes him do it)

Actually, no.

And this goes back to what I was saying about the wrestling industry's loose interpretation of the 'independent contractor' status.

If you work for a company and hurt yourself while in the performance of your duties (i.e. wrestling) then the company would be held responsible for paying for your medical costs, whether it's through direct payment or worker's comp liability. They don't have to be at all negligent. You just have to be performing your normal work duties. (although negligence definitely means that company will be paying significantly more)

Now, because wrestlers aren't 'employees' TNA isn't legally responsible. But - going back to that article - the WWF/E, WCW, ECW always pay/paid for surgeries from injuries related to being in the ring and for a company the size of TNA that should be standard form.

But -again - your example is moot because companies are obligated to pay for medical costs of any employee who gets injured while on the job, regardless of negligence. The only reason TNA gets away with it is because the wrestlers aren't employees.

[PeterHilton]

Ok that is something different as that is industry wide and I agree with you.

Also who is to say that that is not just their base salary? And they don't get paid more for the house shows and get a slice of merchandise etc. Same as the E system. That is also the problem with becoming employees according to Foley. Kiss your royalties goodbye.

Well no one knows for sure, but a PPA is generally just that: Pay Per Appearance . So they probably get the money for that house show run, but does it really off-set the cost of getting there?

These are just estimates, but let's take a look at the upcoming tour schedule:

http://eventful.com/performers/tna-wrestling-/P0-001-000010503-0/events

The rumors are that the midcard workers make around $600 an appearance. Let's up it to $700.

So let's say they work the 14th, 15th, 16th and are due $2100 in appearance fees. Let's say they are smart enough to have moved to Orlando for the convenience of being close to the tapings. They have the cost of the flight to PA (roughly $200 at minimum) the cost of renting a car to go from show to show ($200 would be cheap) fuel for the trip (which would be 250 miles just going from show to show, let's say $100 total), room and board (probably another $300) and food (they eat at fast food joints, so not more than $50 most likely).

Minus taxes..which in the US for independent contractors means you take out at least a third of the total.

And Mick Foley might be concerned about merchandise royalties, but let's be real: How many t-shirts are TNA midcarders really selling?

So what's that leave you with...a little over $500 for a week's work? IF you make $700 an appearance (which it's been verified that quite a few workers aren't)?

I mean..I suppose if the only comparison you have is minimum wage/entry level positions..then that sounds OK. But for anyone else who has any kind of decent job (especially one in the entertainment/media field where they see what 'talent' is paid) that's crazy low.

[juggaloninjalee]

One thing we need to realize is that other sports have competitive contracts. In wrestling there is only WWE than slide down to TNA then go all the way down to Indies. (Majors, AAA, College) in baseball terms. TNA has no way to compete with WWE type salaries and can go as low as "just above" indy pay offs.

Also I do believe all sports players are grossly over paid for doing less work than the average person.

Well the consumer is the one who pays player salaries basically. Take MLB for example. You don't go to baseball games for your team say... Tampa Bay or Kansas City and the players don't make as much money because the team will only pay players what they can do while still making a profit. Meanwhile teams like the Yankees can afford expensive players since they make more money and people pay more per ticket to go to those games.

Everyone in the baseball organization is making a lot of money. Not including vendors, ushers, and other jobs like that. People in the office areas and such make bank for sports teams. Owners make the most though... usually. They don't do anything usually. Not even their own finances because they are paying someone else to do it. Everyone who works in entertainment is overpaid. The system is kinda backwords.

If you look at a factory the floor workers usually work the hardest and are paid the least. Keep going up the ladder and the work is easier but the pay is more. I dunno just my opinion.

[lazorbeak]

Also..I read through that article. And you may not like the rag-sheets but there were also first person interviews and well documented examples given at for every point that was brought up.

TNA doesn't pay for medical procedures resulting from injuries. They don't. And you can defend every other decision TNA makes in terms of who they pay and why, but I think it's totally unethical for a 'national' company to force it's workers to pay out of pocket their surgery costs.

Pete, you're totally on the money here. TNA is taking a bite at both ends. "Oh, we can't afford to pay your insurance, travel, etc. costs because we're the little guy!" At the same time, "oh, we reserve the right to get a cut in any side deal you try to make because we're the big guy that gave you exposure!" So on the one hand, they're acting like the little indy that can't pay the bills, but at the same time they're limiting "independent contractors" right to work by inserting themselves into the equation as the one responsible for a worker's recognition. So as a worker, not only do you make far less than an "employee" without the associated costs to TNA, you also don't get the freedom that's supposed to come with being an independent contractor. The worst of both worlds! It's ethically abhorrent and borderline legal, but it's nothing particularly new in the industry.

As far as the argument that wrestlers should be paid like the dirty carnies they are (which is the argument being made, apparently), it still doesn't gibe with the fact that TNA is keeping those carnies from working other carnivals without getting a cut of the worker's paycheck. This inflates the dirty carny's asking price and makes it a bad economic decision to bring in Chris Sabin for my indy fed when Sean Waltman is $400 cheaper and it only costs him $50 to get him trashed. So not only should we pay these people like carnies, we should make them unmarketable to other carnivals!

[PeterHilton]

Everyone who works in entertainment is overpaid. The system is kinda backwords.

If you look at a factory the floor workers usually work the hardest and are paid the least. Keep going up the ladder and the work is easier but the pay is more. I dunno just my opinion.

Yeah...that's all pretty much completely wrong.

I'm really sick of the 'athletes/entertainers/actors/musicians' are overpaid diatribe. I get it. We all want to live in a world where preschool teachers are millionaires and corporate attorneys are shot and the rest of us are paid in rainbows and butterfly kisses but that's not the real world.

People in the entertainment industry are paid what they are paid because THEY are the ones generating the revenue. They have special talents that the rest of us have decided we are willing to pay to see. If you are one of these people that really think actors/athletes/singers/whatever are overpaid take a good look at YOUR job and say "how easy would it be for my company to replace me and my specific set of skills?" and then look at those "overpaid" stars and ask the same question.

As for 'the works is easier but the pay is harder' deal...that's pretty insulting to the people who went out and got those corporate jobs because more often than not it required years of continued education and lots of time climbing up through the ranks. Just because a job requires more lifting doesn't mean it's "harder."

Pete, you're totally on the money here. TNA is taking a bite at both ends. "Oh, we can't afford to pay your insurance, travel, etc. costs because we're the little guy!" At the same time, "oh, we reserve the right to get a cut in any side deal you try to make because we're the big guy that gave you exposure!" So on the one hand, they're acting like the little indy that can't pay the bills, but at the same time they're limiting "independent contractors" right to work by inserting themselves into the equation as the one responsible for a worker's recognition. So as a worker, not only do you make far less than an "employee" without the associated costs to TNA, you also don't get the freedom that's supposed to come with being an independent contractor. The worst of both worlds! It's ethically abhorrent and borderline legal, but it's nothing particularly new in the industry.

As far as the argument that wrestlers should be paid like the dirty carnies they are (which is the argument being made, apparently), it still doesn't gibe with the fact that TNA is keeping those carnies from working other carnivals without getting a cut of the worker's paycheck. This inflates the dirty carny's asking price and makes it a bad economic decision to bring in Chris Sabin for my indy fed when Sean Waltman is $400 cheaper and it only costs him $50 to get him trashed. So not only should we pay these people like carnies, we should make them unmarketable to other carnivals!

Thank you and yes...that seems to be the argument.

Does TNA underpay it's talent? I think the answer is "Yes" for the most part.

I think it's fair to say they aren't the ONLY company that takes advantage of the 'independent contractor' deal, but their booking fee deal and their policy on medical expenses seems worse than normal imo.

Beyond that, 'taking a bite at both ends' is a good way to explain it: "Hey, of course we deserve a cut of your fee ..the only reason you're a name is because you're on TV every week. What? You want more money? Listen, just because we're on TV every week doesn't mean we can afford to pay all these huge salaries"

I realize that it would be dumb to pay the openers and midcarders huge salaries, but they could be paid a little better. And the women - who actually are decent draws -probably should be getting a lot more (Kong saying she was getting $400 an appearance was laughable).

I still think an indy worker would be an idiot to turn down TNA because of the exposure but it's a shame that that seems to be the ONLY thing you're getting ..the exposure.

[juggaloninjalee]

Hilton have you ever watched Undercover Boss? Most of the time those CEO's and such admit that their job is easy but the labor jobs are harder.

I understand what your saying and I agree in a perfect world cops, fireman, teachers, and whatever would make a lot of money.

Wrestlers, actors, and entertainers make what they deserve. They ARE the product that consumers are paying for.

My point was just that its life get over it. If you think they are overpaid then don't buy the product.

[PeterHilton]

Hilton have you ever watched Undercover Boss? Most of the time those CEO's and such admit that their job is easy but the labor jobs are harder.



I work for one of the companies that was on Season 1 of Undercover Boss and I'm telling you: our COO said that because he knew it was the right thing to say and it was the right attitude to have.

Everybody appreciates the people who do hard, manual, menial jobs. It's a tough living. But does that really mean that their job is 'tougher' than CEOs who have to make decisions regarding marketing and finance and sales that affect the lives of everyone in the company?

So the guy pushing the bins for the waste company I work for has a 'harder' job than the Company President negotiating a billion dollar deal with Wal-Mart ...a deal that - if it falls through - could result in cutting several thousand jobs across the country?

It's just a ridiculously naive stance to take.

[juggaloninjalee]

I work for one of the companies that was on Season 1 of Undercover Boss and I'm telling you: our COO said that because he knew it was the right thing to say and it was the right attitude to have.

Everybody appreciates the people who do hard, manual, menial jobs. It's a tough living. But does that really mean that their job is 'tougher' than CEOs who have to make decisions regarding marketing and finance and sales that affect the lives of everyone in the company?

So the guy pushing the bins for the waste company I work for has a 'harder' job than the Company President negotiating a billion dollar deal with Wal-Mart ...a deal that - if it falls through - could result in cutting several thousand jobs across the country?

It's just a ridiculously naive stance to take.

I am the head of a marketing team for a company called All American Cab, and I work for an electronic contract manufacturer where I moved my way up from the production floor. SOME production type jobs are much harder than my current jobs. Harder physically and harder on my well being. Lots of labor jobs take their toll on your bodies. NOT ALL but some do. Bad knees, backs, and things like that. What kind of things can go wrong as a President or CEO? Stress can get to you and cause a bad heart sure. I still say some labor jobs are much harder.

[Stennick]

I am the head of a marketing team for a company called All American Cab, and I work for an electronic contract manufacturer where I moved my way up from the production floor. SOME production type jobs are much harder than my current jobs. Harder physically and harder on my well being. Lots of labor jobs take their toll on your bodies. NOT ALL but some do. Bad knees, backs, and things like that. What kind of things can go wrong as a President or CEO? Stress can get to you and cause a bad heart sure. I still say some labor jobs are much harder.

I've been working for 16 years now. I have done everything from short line cook to bus boy, to pizza boy before I got a degree. I own my own business with upwards of around 3 to 4 hundred clients and around 35 employees.

I have done their job because before there was 3-4 clients and 35 employees I WAS the job. I worked my behind off for roughly five years in three different states doing the job before I got anywhere. I can tell you that job is hard and everyday I did it I hoped one day I would be in the position I'm in now where I'm not associated with that part of the work.

That being said my job now is a hundred times more difficult. Working the "labor" job you work from 8-5 or whatever and then you got home. Me being the owner I'm always on the clock. I have to make all final decisions on my company. What advertising approach do I take, which new markets do I want to try and penetrate this year, how much growth and expansion can I afford to take on at a time, what new equipment needs to be bought and from where? Scheduling the employees proper days off and requested days off, balancing employees on call versus the actual work load so I'm not over staffed or short handed. Then comes problems such as insurance, customer service, stress. I don't get a day off being the "CEO" of my company. Every day all day I have to atleast have these things in the back of my mind.

Just because something is a lot of work labor wise doesn't mean its "harder". I worked in a garage door factory where my only job was to pick up and move giant garage doors from these tables to the loading docks. It was incredibly hard, they were long, not balance in weight and I had no help and a lot of times had to walk 500 feet or better with them without wobbling around, hitting anything or god forbid dropping them because that would have been my job. The job was hard physically with long hours but anyone who thought that job was more important than getting the stores and clients needed to run an entire factory oh and insure that we had clients to ship this factories contents to. Anyone who thinks that is incredibly naive and most likely has never worked a real upper management job.

Its nice to say when you're a bus boy or a cook that your job is harder but in reality as I said you clock in, you do your work you go home. The people that run these companies you clock in and out for don't get a time clock and have no such thing as a schedule or a day off. Even if you are only supposed to work 8-5 meetings run late, emergencies come up, things have to be handled or flat out something isn't done that needs to be done. There is no "leave it for the night shift" or "you're over your hours clock out and we'll call someone else in to finish it". 60 hour work weeks aren't uncommon for salaried employees especially in today's economy. Having worked both sides of the ball and having done so for my own company and at the same time I have no problems saying that running a business is an infinite times more hard than doing the labor part.

[PeterHilton]

Stennick's post is what I was getting at. Also...

I've been working for 16 years now. I have done everything from short line cook to bus boy, to pizza boy before I got a degree. I own my own business with upwards of around 3 to 4 hundred clients and around 35 employees.

If you ever need sales staff in CA let me know. I feel like it'd be easy to work for someone that I generally agree with this much. ;)

[Stennick]

I go away for a few days and once again we're right back to TNA's business side of things. Its a fun subject however since TNA refuses to truly disclose just how much money they are bringing in and sending out you only get one side of the coin. Here is what I do know.

I've seen comparisons to sports so lets look at the UFL. They are by default the second biggest pro football league in the United States. They are in their second year of operation and the owners of the league must invest 30 million. I would say that this is all rougly equal to what TNA has. As of the end of 2007 TNA had LOST 35 million on TNA. That would mean they had lost nearly 9 million a year. I'd say it wouldn't be a huge stretch to say they have taken in atleast double that and maybe more. Point is 30 million upfront to be the owner of TNA would make sense.

In 2010 the UFL aired 40 games. TNA runs what? 52 Impacts a year? So thats essentially the same amount of television "shows".

Here is where they start to split though. The UFL ran their shows on HDnet and the Versus channel. Although HDnet doesn't release ratings only 46% of homes in the United States have HD programming ability and HDnet is not in all of those homes. So at the very best the UFL is seen in 30-35% of homes in America. The Versus channel and the UFL release ratings for last years games and they debuted with 200,000 viewers but dropped to 100,000 and then 80,000 for the final few weeks. The championship game was watched by 100,000 people. TNA has a television show that was just viewed by 1.6 million people. For those of us that don't want to do the math TNA Impact is seen by 16 times the number of people the UFL is seen by. Again both of these companies have roughly the same amount of money dealt to and available to them. Both of them are the number two companies in their fields. Football is well more popular than wrestling and yet TNA is a lot closer in viewership to the WWE than the UFL is to the NFL.

All of that being said the average salary for a UFL player is 35,000 that doesn't include bonus, merchandise, more pay for playoffs. For instance just for winning the championship you get 50,000. The loser gets 20,000. Again there is merchandise, bonuses, all of which could send just a lowly Punter upwards around 100,000 dollars a year. If ever there was an "extra" in pro football you would think it would be the Punter. So tell me how the UFL does a BASE of 35,000 for ALL their players and yet TNA doesn't come close to matching this for their mid carders.

TNA is seen by 16 times the amount of people that the UFL is, they put on roughly the same amount of television as each other. Its pretty sad that a football league that most of the world doesn't know exists and doesn't make NEAR the money TNA does can pay its employees more than TNA can.

Also raise your hand if you would be ok with making 20,000 a year from TNA and then when you go and work say PWG and some other indy's on in your off time to make up the differnce TNA then comes to you wanting a cut of THAT money even if they had nothing do with it. If you work at McDonalds you're making minimum wage. You're not exclusive to them so you go out and get a job at Hardee's making min wage on the weekends you're not at McDonalds. How would you feel if McDonalds said "since you work for us we want some of the money you make working for Hardees". You would flip out but yet its ok when TNA does this......sometimes this board has a very strong "this is ok as long as its not me" mentality.

Not directed at anyone in particular but the people that are actually ok with TNA's treatment towards women's division which by the way out draws all of the males on a semi regular basis....or did before you know they gutted it seven or eight different times. Its funny that they do this to women saying they can put anyone in that spot and draw the same ratings yet they have shown that even if Angle, Anderson, Hogan, Jarrett, Foley, no matter WHO is gone from that company they do the EXACT same ratings with or without them yet they pay them more. Yet when it comes to the women they say "we can find anyone to fill this role and get the same ratings" that was their reason for not resigning some of these women. Just goes to show you how delusional TNA is because I got news for them they could put Jesse Neal vs. Shark Boy in the main event and they're still going to draw that 1.0 and million fans they always draw.

Stay classy TNA

[juggaloninjalee]

WWE and TNA both should pay their wrestlers better. I think they should offer medical benefits too.

[Stennick]

Best I can tell the WWE pays for surgery and what not if it happens in their ring. TNA will not pay for an injury the best they will do is give the wrestler a loan and then remove payments from their paychecks.

[PeterHilton]

Agree with everything you wrote and I think UFL is a good comparison. If a league with that many players and so few viewers can afford a $ 35 K baseline, then it's a pretty good example of how low 35 K really is.

And last I checked, when those teams go on the road, they don't go ask their players to provide their own travel and boarding plans.


Not directed at anyone in particular but the people that are actually ok with TNA's treatment towards women's division which by the way out draws all of the males on a semi regular basis....or did before you know they gutted it seven or eight different times. Its funny that they do this to women saying they can put anyone in that spot and draw the same ratings yet they have shown that even if Angle, Anderson, Hogan, Jarrett, Foley, no matter WHO is gone from that company they do the EXACT same ratings with or without them yet they pay them more. Yet when it comes to the women they say "we can find anyone to fill this role and get the same ratings" that was their reason for not resigning some of these women. Just goes to show you how delusional TNA is because I got news for them they could put Jesse Neal vs. Shark Boy in the main event and they're still going to draw that 1.0 and million fans they always draw.

Stay classy TNA

I think the mentality is also based on the fact they know that there's no option out there. Their hottest acts in recent years have been The Beautiful People and Kong. But they knew that neither was going to find 'better treatment/more money' in the WWE.

Kong..? in the E....? not happening.

And TBP probably would've worked, especially the Rayne/Sky version. But the writers obviously saw the act, copied it, and gave it to LayCool...so now that's not happening.

They are taking advantage of the fact that females in the industry have limited options.

WWE and TNA both should pay their wrestlers better. I think they should offer medical benefits too.

Insurance carriers won't touch wrestlers. So they can't offer true 'medical benefits' . However...

Best I can tell the WWE pays for surgery and what not if it happens in their ring. TNA will not pay for an injury the best they will do is give the wrestler a loan and then remove payments from their paychecks.

This is what I've been saying.

[Hyde Hill]

Really overestimating what the women where drawing here. And I am a fan of the women. One of the main reason their rating averages where so high was the fact they got slotted in quarter hour 5. Which in general is a very high rated slot. Yes they are an attraction and yes I like the women's division but just because their segment has high average ratings mainly due to it being in q5 that is why they deserve a lot more money?

On the subcontractor thing. The talent who have that clause in their contract get paid a higher base salary. They can get a contract without that clause for a lower salary. As long as the whole independent contractor system is still in play this is normal. Also the cut isn't a huge amount it's like 10 percent or a base amount of administrative costs.

Look the whole independent contractor system is BS agreed. But TNA being especially foul? Nope. And as long as we don't have any reel info we are taking shots in the dark here. Even using UFL averages by comparisons doesn't fly because we are talking about the undercard here not the main eventers. For all we know TNA's averages are higher but there is a steeper pay scale. Why? Because that is how wrestling and entertainment (not team sports) work atm.

Ad to that that TNA is exactly in that middle position atm. They can't pay all the surgeries as its too expensive but they do generate a hell of a lot more exposure then any indy which causes their talent to be more over. Plus that talent can then get injured at someone else's show or get booked wrongly etc.

[PeterHilton]

Really overestimating what the women where drawing here. And I am a fan of the women. One of the main reason their rating averages where so high was the fact they got slotted in quarter hour 5. Which in general is a very high rated slot. Yes they are an attraction and yes I like the women's division but just because their segment has high average ratings mainly due to it being in q5 that is why they deserve a lot more money?

In TNA's case specifically? TBP have been a draw since the group formed and at the very least they (Love, Rayne,Sky ) should be making a lot more. Not "Jeff Hardy" more but more than the Rob Terrys of the world

On the subcontractor thing. The talent who have that clause in their contract get paid a higher base salary. They can get a contract without that clause for a lower salary. As long as the whole independent contractor system is still in play this is normal. Also the cut isn't a huge amount it's like 10 percent or a base amount of administrative costs.

Look the whole independent contractor system is BS agreed. But TNA being especially foul? Nope. And as long as we don't have any reel info we are taking shots in the dark here. Even using UFL averages by comparisons doesn't fly because we are talking about the undercard here not the main eventers. For all we know TNA's averages are higher but there is a steeper pay scale. Why? Because that is how wrestling and entertainment (not team sports) work atm.

Ad to that that TNA is exactly in that middle position atm. They can't pay all the surgeries as its too expensive but they do generate a hell of a lot more exposure then any indy which causes their talent to be more over. Plus that talent can then get injured at someone else's show or get booked wrongly etc.



How much is TNA's cut of the booking fee is argued about a lot. Promoters have said that it's exorbitant but who knows?

The steeper pay scale isn't the issue. It's the combination of 'steep pay scale PLUS we don't pay for your surgeries PLUS a clause that makes it less likely you'll be getting booked on your off-days.'

Those things together lead me to feel like TNA takes advantage of its lower end workers. Like I said...it's a shame that the exposure seems to be the only thing TNA offers to unknown workers as a possible benefit of signing up.

I mean..you'd think that going from wrestling in front of dozen fans in a gym to wrestling on national TV would mean a better standard of living.

[Bigpapa42]

If the numbers I've read are accurate, the WWE is paying guys in development as much or more than TNA is paying some of its main roster talent. That's kinda ridiculous when you think about it.

[Stennick]

My point was that TNA didn't pay their women because "anyone can get that same rating". Which is completely true and I agree the women aren't that huge of a deal although their a big enough deal that TNA was in talks of a second show based around the Knockouts when they had Flash, Kong, Gail, etc. so yes TNA for sure saw some serious value in them and promoted the hell out of them being "different". Insert everything they said about the X Division in 03 and plug it into 08 for the KO's. My point was that their basis for not paying the women holds true to the men. Name me ONE wrestler in TNA or a group of guys that have been such a big draw that when they weren't on screen the ratings dip to a noticeable degree? You can't do it because that person doesn't exist. So if you go off of that way of thinking EVERYONE in TNA is expendable and there is no reason to not have Jesse Neal vs. Shark Boy main eventing with Rosie Lottalove or whatever her name was on color commentary.

Also name me another entertainment field that pays their lowest guys THAT low? You're right Hogan and Flair have million dollar deals with TNA nobody in the UFL is getting a million dollars which is how it should be. My point is though a PUNTER in the UFL can make 100,000 in the UFL if he goes to the championship game and wins with bonus and merch sales. That Punter works roughly 12 games if he goes to the championship. Thats nearly 10,000 a week.

Jay Lethal wrestled Ric Flair for two months straight headlining iMpact's and being one of if not the headline for several pay per views. I promise you Jay did not make a 100 G's this year off of TNA and he didn't come close to making ten thousand for any weeks worth of work.

If I'm owned by a billion dollar energy company and I have a sweetheart television deal as well as run a months worth of television at little to no cost as far as arena bookings, advertising etc goes AND I'm getting money from my employees everytime they work their local indy show? All that and I can't even 2,000 a month to my mid card even if their on television 52 weeks out of the year?

Name me one entertainment field that pays 19 K? Oh by the way being an extra on a television show pays anywhere from 100-700 per part. Even if you do one extra spot per week at a hundred bucks you're making 400 a month and over 20,000 dollars in a year. Thats if you DON'T speak, if you have a speaking part then you are not consindered an extra and you will have your pay doubled or tripled. So if you have a speaking part in a television show you're making well more than 20,000 a year. If you are in the background of a t.v show doing nothing and you do that once a week for an entire year you make more than guys do in TNA. NBA D Leaguers make 24,000 a MINIMUM so even THEY make more.

So far I have learned that Punters in the UFL a league who's championship game was seen by 100,000 viewers or 1/16 of TNA's average audience. I have learned that wearing a costume in the background of a television show without uttering one line have a higher yearly minimum, NBA D Leaguer's make more in a minmum salary (with no real television deal in place), the WNBA minmum salary is nearly triple TNA's with an average attendance of 250,000 viewers (1/5 of TNA's average viewers), MLS league minimum is 33,000 (I won't even go into how little viewership and attention soccer gets in the U.S)

So anyway I challenge someone to come up with any sports or entertainment field who has a chance to be on television atleast 52 times a year or in that area that has a LOWER min salary than TNA.

[PeterHilton]

Name me one entertainment field that pays 19 K? Oh by the way being an extra on a television show pays anywhere from 100-700 per part. Even if you do one extra spot per week at a hundred bucks you're making 400 a month and over 20,000 dollars in a year. Thats if you DON'T speak, if you have a speaking part then you are not consindered an extra and you will have your pay doubled or tripled. So if you have a speaking part in a television show you're making well more than 20,000 a year. If you are in the background of a t.v show doing nothing and you do that once a week for an entire year you make more than guys do in TNA. NBA D Leaguers make 24,000 a MINIMUM so even THEY make more.

So far I have learned that Punters in the UFL a league who's championship game was seen by 100,000 viewers or 1/16 of TNA's average audience. I have learned that wearing a costume in the background of a television show without uttering one line have a higher yearly minimum, NBA D Leaguer's make more in a minmum salary (with no real television deal in place), the WNBA minmum salary is nearly triple TNA's with an average attendance of 250,000 viewers (1/5 of TNA's average viewers), MLS league minimum is 33,000 (I won't even go into how little viewership and attention soccer gets in the U.S)

So anyway I challenge someone to come up with any sports or entertainment field who has a chance to be on television atleast 52 times a year or in that area that has a LOWER min salary than TNA.


Well when you put it that way...

EDIT: i know this discussion is going to seem like it's unfair or its overkill towards TNA, but when you tell that - for instance - the guys in GenMe could probably make more money by quitting TNA and landing regular gigs standing around in the background of bar scenes on 'How I Met Your Mother' it does have some lulz

[Stennick]

Its not over kill in my opinion although I have made my point and I'll rest with it. There isn't a single significant entertainment entity or sports league that has LESS pay for its employees than TNA.

I still can't quite fathom how TNA doesn't make money. They have all of these over seas television deals set up in the UK, Australia, even India and the Middle East. Those deals are essentially ALL profit since their taking a product thats already being aired and just REairing it. That combined with their television shows costing almost nothing compared to any other arena booking they would do. On top of that Spike has given them an incredible television deal as well as paying for guys such as Sting and Angle in the past (atleast partly).

So when you look at just how easy TNA has it and just how many different people give them breaks Spike, Disney, over seas television companies, etc. its pretty hard to understand how they aren't constantly profitable.

I wanted people to see just how little TNA people are paid compared to any sports or entertainment counterpart (sometimes a significantly less counterpart) in the United States.

So you take in that they are unwilling to pay their stars what other avenues pay theirs and you might say "well their losing money they can't afford it". Thats fine except for one they have proven on more than one occasion (the Immortal Title) that they are willing to drop 18K (an entire years salary for an employee of theres) when it benefits them. That combined with them demanding a cut even if it is ten percent when WWE stars work indy events such as when Lawler works outside of the show or when Al Snow did back in the day they don't demand a cut from these guys for these things so why does TNA charge a cut for their stars to work some PWG show that a few hundred people are attending anyway. Oh and on top of that they will not pay for any injuries sustained under THEIR banner. They will give you a LOAN with interest to be paid back out of your paycheck.

I get sick of TNA playing the little engine that could card. The big bad WWE and their just the little guy trying to rise up and give something different. Even though they don't offer anything different as far as product goes and when they do offer something different (X Division, KO's, etc, tag teams) they kill it rather quickly.

There is still a lot wrong with how the WWE does business but in the last few years they have come leaps and bounds. They pay for any injuries sustained at no cost to the worker, they don't take money out of their pocket if their workers are given the green light to work some lame indy show and they pay even their developmental guys enough to live off of.

So TNA can't do those things but they can drop a million in cash on Hogan? Another million of Flair? 18K for a title belt, they can pay for 12 ppv's a year that they LOSE money on and mostly go unwatched?

It urks me that people came in here and tried to justify how much money TNA is paying guys that have more television time than any extra on a television show and are more seen and recognized around the country than any minor league sports star and yet out of all the sports and entertainment fields THEIR employees are the lowest paid even though 1.5 million people watch them every week.

[PeterHilton]

I still can't quite fathom how TNA doesn't make money.

I totally support the rest of the post but this interested me. It's all speculation because no one will ever see their financials, but it seems to me that the biggest possibility is that their pay-outs to the Hogan/Flair/Hardy/RVDs of the world is much MUCH larger than we might believe OR that Panda energy never came in and rescued them so much as they floated them enough money to get them to this point and now TNA is paying that back.

[liontamer]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

[Wrestling Century]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

I agree with this post. I'm not getting involved in this argument until I can actually see the actual finances.

[PeterHilton]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

well if you read along then you know that most everyone has cited well known examples (such as Kong stating she made $400 an appearance) and figures given in wrestling site like the Observer or 411mania.com

No one is going to have ACTUAL salaries since TNA has no obligation to give out that info. All you can really do is go off of estimates.

[Stennick]

following this arguement on/off throught the last few weeks with interest. Wondering if there are any ACTUAL salaries and company finances posted anywhere. Otherwise this is all hypothetical heresay (sp?) and lacks much substance to me.

You're a disgrace to the entire internet GTFO :) If you can't wildly speculate and speak on secret cult meetings and human/goat sacrafices that may or may not be happening then what good are you ?

I don't have actual salaries but something that struck me as funny is that Taylor Wilde had to work at Sunglasses Hut WHILE she was TNA Knockouts Champion. For a nationally broadcast, and at one time claimed rival of the World Wrestling Entertainment to have your largest female star hocking sunglasses is quite sad.

Obviously TNA has not released anything of their own right. They're a privatley owned company and outside of about a dozen or so guys we don't know what they make.

Flair, Hogan and Sting all had million dollar deals. Atleast Sting's was (at one time) partly set off by Spike. I could find the links but honestly I think atleast this is common knowledge.

I know that Gen Me have had their salaries reported, Eric Young I think just had his put out there, Kevin Nash has mentioned his.

All in all the only time we get any real pay information is when its incredibly large (Sting, Hogan, Flair) or damn near nothing (Wilde, Tara, Kong at one time, Gen Me, etc.)

But to be fair you don't have WWE's finance numbers either. Anyone's salary on any company is supposed to be a mostly confidential thing the only place I see it wildly talked about is sports.

Pro Wrestling in general as with most entertainment industries are based on second and third hand information. The Wrestling Observer is by far the most credible source for legitmate pro wrestling news. Dave is usually pretty dead on as he's been right way more times than wrong when it comes to the business. So I would say that if he's reporting it (and he has) then its credible. It would require people to go to his website and find it but he's pretty much said the same thign we're saying here.

Some people will say "well thats the dirt sheets" if thats the case then we can't take ANYTHING we know for granted. Is Vince really the "richard" backstage that we think? Did HHH really hold everyone down? Is the WWE really all about pushing mindless big bodied goofs whenever they get the chance? Was CM Punk in the doghouse with Taker?

Everything we discuss we mostly get from one dirt sheet or another so you have to make a decision to believe what they say (gain the Observer is right 8/10 times) or you can decide to disregard them which means that you can't really speak on any "news" since its all stemmed from the same place. If you start picking and choosing what you believe thats pretty silly since its all coming from the same source and we have as much insight into one part of it as any.

The only other source is TNA itself and both Dixie and Eric have been known to skew the truth just as often if not more so than Dave so I would say that the Wrestling Observer is just as factual as Dixie and Eric if not more so.

So the answer is yes there are numbers out there some come straight from the wrestlers mouths others come from Dave's site but I don't pay a monthly fee to hear about wrestling news so I don't have access to where that could all be searched.

[Hyde Hill]

TNA DOES MAKE MONEY!!! Get that bs Meltzer notion out of your head asap.

[Bigpapa42]

TNA DOES MAKE MONEY!!! Get that bs Meltzer notion out of your head asap.

Honestly, if they are making money, that just makes some of these financial decisions worse. At least if you are not profitable, paying workers a pittance is somewhat justifiable. When you doing decently, its not. Same with taking a significant cut of them working for other promotions.

[liontamer]

well if you read along then you know that most everyone has cited well known examples (such as Kong stating she made $400 an appearance) and figures given in wrestling site like the Observer or 411mania.com

No one is going to have ACTUAL salaries since TNA has no obligation to give out that info. All you can really do is go off of estimates.

That's actually the only one I've seen in the parts I've read thus far. My thoughts on that though are 1)when did she say that? (with the company vs after an angry depature where she could be potentially trying to make the company look bad), 2)if I'm not mistaken she is from Japan, despite not looking that part to me, - does TNA pay her travel or other fees? 3)what does she get and how frequently working indy shows?, 4)she held the title quite a bit, is there a bonus for the champ? - have heard that for other companies on TV series like real life I'm a pro wrestler (and some of those wrestlers from indy feds reported making more than some of the figures you guys have here, which makes me wonder). 5) what are kong's/the knockouts merch sales compared to the others? 6)If it's that bad, why take the job?

And also, not everyone is taking this stance, but to counter the 'TNA is biting at both ends' arguement, a lot of people seem to be saying 'TNA never made a profit once, I think they need to pay their talent more' this makes no sense to me (I can't see how they could have never been profitable, and if that is accurate, I would expect pay cuts not high salaries).

And the UFL comparison was interesting but not entirely fair because the UFL hasn't shown staying power yet (my understanding is they are already looking for the NFL to take them over) so they could go the way of the XFL in which case they likely overpaid the talent. They also have a lot more and wealthier investors (including Pelosi's husband to my understanding), I would also assume that football in general draws much more in merchandise than wrestling (they may invest more now because of what it will mean later), not to mention that it's judged more on a team basis than an individual one, not to say that it doesn't have it's stars. And while this board usually does, I don't think most of the rest of the world views wrestling on a company basis, but rather on it's main eventers. I think most people tune in to watch two or three particular people or a particular stable so that explains the steep payscale to an extent.



Off topic, if I was the UFL, I know they made a run at Vick after he came out of prison, and I doubt he'd take it at this point, but after his success this year, I'd go balls out to get this guy, hell drop a half a billion if you can find it. Landing him alone will significantly affect viewership and exposure.

[Hyde Hill]

Ok point by point

Yeah being a full time extra pays so well that is why there are no actors etc waiting tables in LA. No job security and many many extra's definitely get paid less or even nothing. Plus their exposure is minimal at best. Also compare their income to the stars of the show and the total income of the show and also take into account the other costs which can be spread more due to being a big studio.

Like tamer said. Wrestling doesn't pay that will either at both ends even. That is why the Rock is doing movies and is not in wrestling.

Developmental WWE guys get paid more then TNA undercard. Hmm lets say WWE makes what 6 times as much money as TNA whow what a surprise.

What is the total income of those UFL teams? How much of said income goes to player TOTAL (so not base income) wages? How long is a football career? How many days do they work for their team? What is the pay scale top to bottom?

Are any of those teams trying to make it to the NFL, none? Not as with true Football where you can promote to the higher league for more income. Now that teams wants to go to promote to the higher level? Gotta get yourself some proven good players? Want them? Gotta pay them bigger money? Still need to balance the budge? Gotta pay the others less.

Got a youth player you hope will be good? Not going to pay him that maximum salary immediately. Kong for instance was a relatively unknown and for that matter the potential in a serious women's division was an unknown when they first signed her.

BTW know some of the budgets of those second league clubs in the Netherlands? (population 16 mil) 5-10 million Euro's. Now how much attendance they get and tv viewers? Average attendance 2.000 tv rating? Not a whole lot. Know what their substitutes get paid and youth players? Not much I can tell you that. And they only need teams of 18 people.

Now look at golf for instance. Many Challenger tour players (the second level in Europe) actually lose money to play on that tour in the hopes of getting to the top level. Many at the top level also barely break even.

Now look at the history of wrestling as it comes to worker pay and the general pay in all of wrestling. Also look at the fact that there are no unions, governing bodies, salary caps etc etc in wrestling.

A local actor in a local theatre makes 100 bucks a night for an audience of 100 people. Local wrestler, same audience 20 bucks if lucky. This is normal.

BTW TNA does pay for travel, its one of the reasons Hamada was cut and is the reason ref Charles was cut. It probably depends on the contract.

Now TNA has essentially four payment types. Option A make 300 bucks a night and make your own indy bookings or get an agent aka ppa. B make 450 a night and TNA acts as your agent semi exclusive ppa. C 600 bucks a night, no indy bookings aka exclusive ppa. D Guaranteed exclusive contract 3.5 K a month aka written contract. Now this is not taking all the potential extra income into account which has the potential to be a lot larger in wrestling then in other sports/entertainment.

Ex employees bitching about their employer and gossip magazines making up stuff? Now that is unheard off!!!!

I can go on and on and on. Is TNA treating its workers more unfair then other companies? Nope. Is there a systemic problem in wrestling? Yep. Is TNA in a position to change that? Definitely not. If they ever get to the income level and size of the E then yeah definitely. Is the E more at fault? Yep. Are indies even worse to work for? Hell yeah.

[Stennick]

The UFL is finishing its second year and already have an expansion in both games and teams for a third season. I have not read that they want the NFL to take them over but I know they want a stronger partnership with the NFL which to me would be the exact same thing as TNA Entertainment LLC having a strong agreement with Panda Energy Inc.

So three years isn't the staying power of the eight years TNA has but its getting there.

[Hyde Hill]

Honestly, if they are making money, that just makes some of these financial decisions worse. At least if you are not profitable, paying workers a pittance is somewhat justifiable. When you doing decently, its not. Same with taking a significant cut of them working for other promotions.

They weren't making money when they signed Kong and they had no idea the KO's would be any type of draw at that time. Which still has to be proven they are. I think they are from a total product standpoint. But paying them the same as midcard/ uppermidcard male talent? Nope. Just above the enhancement guys (Sharky, Neal etc) yep.

[Hyde Hill]

The UFL is finishing its second year and already have an expansion in both games and teams for a third season. I have not read that they want the NFL to take them over but I know they want a stronger partnership with the NFL which to me would be the exact same thing as TNA Entertainment LLC having a strong agreement with Panda Energy Inc.

So three years isn't the staying power of the eight years TNA has but its getting there.

Don't forget Panda has made it quite clear they want TNA to stand on its own feet financially now and TNA is paying back the loan they got from Panda. Panda provides security and expertise but no cash.

[Stennick]

Ok point by point

Yeah being a full time extra pays so well that is why there are no actors etc waiting tables in LA. No job security and many many extra's definitely get paid less or even nothing. Plus their exposure is minimal at best. Also compare their income to the stars of the show and the total income of the show and also take into account the other costs which can be spread more due to being a big studio.

Being an extra DOES pay well. I just stated that they make anywhere from 100-700 a DAY for a NON speaking role. If they speak or are an active part of the story they make MORE than that. So yes being an extra does pay something. There is no such thing in the States as being an extra and NOT getting paid. Again they get between 100-700 per day depending. Why are there people waiting tables in LA? Same reason guys are in the indy's there isn't THAT much work to go around. It doesn't take away from extras being paid more than TNA workers who are on TELEVISION most of the time in speaking active roles. Consider that if a lower mid carder is on television for ten minutes of a two hour show thats a higher ratio of face time when they ARE the star of the story than any extra. So yes being an extra pays better and it doesn't matter what their pay is compared to the tweny million dollar men the fact is they are not noticed on television, they don't speak and they're not part of the story yet they get paid better than guys who are on cable television weekly being noticed by at the very least 1.5 million people here and a few million over seas. Lower mid carders are stars of the story for atleast ten minutes a week and sometimes more.


Like tamer said. Wrestling doesn't pay that will either at both ends even. That is why the Rock is doing movies and is not in wrestling.

If the the number is 19K then that means they are getting paid 360 dollars a week with a forty hour work week that averages out to someone getting paid nine dollars an hour. They could make that much money working at McDonalds for forty hours a week. Hell my brother can make 200 bucks wrestling in front of a 100 people three nights a week. So how can some guy working the indies for three nights a week make nearly as much as a guy on LIVE television. This isn't about pro wrestling not paying well its about TNA with their national exposure, with their sweetheart television deal, with their international deals, with their ability to spend 18,000 on a BELT paying guys the same amount of money as a MCDONALDS worker. Seriously on what planet is 360 bucks to be a television star a "fair" wage? On what planet is putting your body on the line every week for 360 bucks a FAIR wage? This isn't a "wrestling doesn't pay well". Some wrestlers get paid quite well. Hulk Hogan is 60 years old and just made a million dollars this year for LESS work than these guys. Same goes for Sting he's been on television less than Hogan and he's made as much money as these guys. Sting can work 30 weeks out of the year, make no difference in the ratings and STILL get paid 52 times more than these guys. So I would say that a huge pay disparity when these guys are NOT extras. In a lot of cases Hulk Hogan is on television or even Mick Foley or whoever else is on television just as long if not less than these guys. I understand their not names I'm not asking them to have Hulk Hogan level money but you can't play the "we're broke" when you're paying 18 grand for a belt, when you're paying THREE million dollars for three guys that don't even wrestle.
Developmental WWE guys get paid more then TNA undercard. Hmm lets say WWE makes what 6 times as much money as TNA whow what a surprise.

What is the total income of those UFL teams? How much of said income goes to player TOTAL (so not base income) wages? How long is a football career? How many days do they work for their team? What is the pay scale top to bottom?

What does it matter how long a football career is? I'd say a punter in the UFL (as long as the UFL was around) could be a punter a lot longer than Generation Me will be a relevant tag team for TNA. There are Punters that have been in the NFL for twenty years so its not like they need to make more money because they're not going to be around as long. Again they are PUNTERS and their base salary is more for a sport that has 100,000 people watching its championship game on two television networks nobody sees. The UFL is also not delusional in competing with the NFL. We don't have UFL Monday Night Football like we had with iMpact. This has nothing to do with how much the top guys are getitng paid or even what the ratio is. It has to do with the lower mid card guys NOT making a liveable wage. Seriously again NINE dollars an hour is what they average out to. How is it that they can be on television for a multi million dollar company and make as much as my little sister does at McDonalds? They don't have the money? But they have it for Hogan, Flair, Sting, Foley, Nash (did have in his case), Angle, Ken Anderson, Jeff Hardy, RVD, and the list goes on. When TNA wants to have the money for something they do. But when Kong or Taylor Wilde ask for a pay increase their laughed at or shown the door.

Are any of those teams trying to make it to the NFL, none? Not as with true Football where you can promote to the higher league for more income. Now that teams wants to go to promote to the higher level? Gotta get yourself some proven good players? Want them? Gotta pay them bigger money? Still need to balance the budge? Gotta pay the others less.

That doesn't make sense though. When was the last time Sting was worth a million dollars? What has Mick Foley done to earn what I'm sure isn't a small amount of money? Why pay Ric Flair a million dollars to bleed on television every week? You already brought in Hulk Hogan to hep with the international market why do you need Flair as well? What about Kevin Nash when was the last time this guy was worth his money? Yet they continued to resign these guys. In sports if you don't do well when you're brought in your contract isn't renewed. If the Rams are 6-10 team without Dan Marino and they bring in the biggest named QB of the eighties to help improve their team both finances and on the field and they are still 6-20 five years later with Dan they don't CONTINUE to re up his contract for a million in cash every week. So you're whole "if you want good players you gotta pay the others less" theory doesn't work. TNA has pissed away money at these guys over and over again resigned them time and time again even though they haven't effected the bottom line or viewership at all. One might argue keeping the lower paid guys around would be more worthwhile. Pay Joe 100,000 a year to main event. Thats a TENTH of some of the other guys. It was just reported the WWE had NO interest in the guy. Eric Young was an upper mid carder.....same thing he left and tried to sign with Vince but they didn't want him. News flash they don't care about TNA stars and most likely would take a dozen guys if not less out of the whole lot. You don't have to pay these guys big money to keep them to stay most of them wouldn't have anywhere else to go.

BTW know some of the budgets of those second league clubs in the Netherlands? (population 16 mil) 5-10 million Euro's. Now how much attendance they get and tv viewers? Average attendance 2.000 tv rating? Not a whole lot. Know what their substitutes get paid and youth players? Not much I can tell you that. And they only need teams of 18 people.

Now look at golf for instance. Many Challenger tour players (the second level in Europe) actually lose money to play on that tour in the hopes of getting to the top level. Many at the top level also barely break even.

No offense but that doesn't work because you just said so yourself. The top league in that sport doesn't even pay these guys a living wage. If TNA were in Europe I might say "well the Challenger tour doesn't pay their players so I don't fault TNA" but when the United States SOCCER league can pay their players a MINIMUM of 33,000 a year its sad TNA can't do the same. Do you know how low pro soccer is on on the United States interest scale? If there were a paint drying league where you watched paint dry it would garner more interest than Soccer does over here. TNA has more money, more assetts, more viewers and higher telvision ratings and exposure than Soccer, the WNBA, The NBA D League, the UFL, Triple A baseball and yet these guys all get paid less than these. The whole "well here in Europe guys make this amount of money and barely break even" that doesn't have anything to do with what TNA a United States company is paying compared to other United States athletic and entertainment companies of a comparable size are paying there guys.

Now look at the history of wrestling as it comes to worker pay and the general pay in all of wrestling. Also look at the fact that there are no unions, governing bodies, salary caps etc etc in wrestling.

Go read Mick Foley's book he was getting paid 200 bucks to job for a night in the WWE in the 80's. Foley as a WWE jobber in the eighties was getting paid more than what a mid carder in TNA is making today. That was 25-30 years ago and it was more THEN than what TNA guys are making now. Name me a single instance of a company have an INTERNATIONAL television deal that paid their guys less than what TNA guys were making. What did the AWA midcard get? I bet you they got more THEN than TNA guys are making now. What about Mid South guys? Yup still more. What did ECW guys make? ECW guys were making more you don't think Spike Dudley in ECW was making more money than some of these TNA guys? Wrestlers not being paid well is actually kind of a myth in a lot of ways. They don't get rich but they certainly make a better average than nine dollars an hour based on a forty hour work week. So again I'm asking you to show me a single internationally televised wrestling company that pays their workers less than what TNA pays their undercard.

Now TNA has essentially four payment types. Option A make 300 bucks a night and make your own indy bookings or get an agent aka ppa. B make 450 a night and TNA acts as your agent semi exclusive ppa. C 600 bucks a night, no indy bookings aka exclusive ppa. D Guaranteed exclusive contract 3.5 K a month aka written contract. Now this is not taking all the potential extra income into account which has the potential to be a lot larger in wrestling then in other sports/entertainment.

This I don't buy, I don't buy these guys are making 182,000 a year. In fact the reason Eric Young was released is he wanted more pay. When they rehired him they did so under the condition that he coudl be in charge of his own bookings. This was the only way they would give him more pay. THEY don't decide which form of a contract they have TNA does. Otherwise why would it have been TNA that let him have his own bookings he would have just taken that option but he didn't TNA had to GIVE him this option. You are delusional if you believe TNA is paying their guys 180,000 a year. I would love to see a link for that.

Ex employees bitching about their employer and gossip magazines making up stuff? Now that is unheard off!!!!

Taylor Wilde had to quite The Sunglasses Hut for Minimum wage WHILE she was the Knockouts champion so thats NOT an ex employee bitching its their current women's champion. Tara complained about her pay while she was employed, Eric Young quit because of a pay dispute, Kevin Nash is not with them due to a pay dispute so these people mention this stuff WHILE employed and then go into detail once they aren't employed. Its not like these guys get fired and then make it up. They comment on it during their employment and only give the finer details after being released due to legalities and such.

I can go on and on and on. Is TNA treating its workers more unfair then other companies? Nope. Is there a systemic problem in wrestling? Yep. Is TNA in a position to change that? Definitely not. If they ever get to the income level and size of the E then yeah definitely. Is the E more at fault? Yep. Are indies even worse to work for? Hell yeah.

You act like TNA is just another wrestling company. It is the second largest wrestling promotion in the United States. If all you can say is "their not any worse than the other indy promotions" thats not the point. These guys are INTERNATIONALLY broadcast they have a roster of Hogan, RVD, Hardy, Foley, Jarrett, Ken Anderson, Sting, recently Kevin Nash, Flair and the list goes on of some of the largest wrestling stars the world has ever known. Their television tapings are severely discounted for arena booking, the television company helps PAY some of these guys salaries. They are heads and shoulders above everyone but the WWE but yet they treat their wrestlers NO better than an indy promotion for some weekend warriors would.

Actually how is the E more at fault? I've not heard too many people complaining about the E's payment levels. In fact don't a lot of guys stay with the company BECAUSE of the pay? They pay for any injuries sustained, they pay them more than any other pro wrestling company in the world, etc. I don't see how you could say the WWE treats their guys more unfairly than TNA when TNA won't pay for injuries sustained on THEIR shows and when they give the workers money its a LOAN with INTEREST.

I don't mean to argue with you Hyde but I think you're WAY off the mark here. I know you feel like TNA gets a bad rep business wise but tell me what excuse they have to pay these guys so low? Tell me what excuse they have to not pay for injuries sustained in THEIR ring. If Generation Me broke their necks doing these high flying matches people love on television who would pay for that? THEY would. Do you have ANY idea how much it would cost in medical bills to repair a broken neck? Do you have any idea how much time that would cost to pay off working on a few hundred bucks a week? Even you can't be this delusional and blind to the situation at hand.

[liontamer]

Math question here....

keep seeing the 19 K number as an annual number here for lower card, wondering where it's coming from.

If kong only got 400/appearance for impact tapings alone thats 20,800/yr. But that's not her total. TNA has house shows and if you are going to argue that these people work 40 hr weeks for TNA (probably true of some talents, but not others) and therefore deserve more, you had better include these in your figures, especially considering that they only work a few hours a show and generally only a few minutes out of those hours (yes I appreciated that the travel can be an obstacle to holding an outside job, and that at some point - whether it's through TNA or on their own- they have to train, but I'm not sure that takes 40 hrs a week and traveling the world is a pretty sweet perk and the general fitness part of it is something they should be doing for their health anyway).

Looking at the site, I see entire weeks with touring events. The touring schedule on their site looks pretty busy but is in spurts, so lets say kong averaged 3 house shows a week. If that's at the 400/show still then she just quadrupled her salary an is now over 80K, not bad not to mention indy bookings, not bad for someone nearly nobody heard of before she appeared on TNA. If they pay her less non-televised, we'll say 200/show (assuming that none of these are on reaction and thus still 400), thats still over 50K, again not including indy bookings and not a bad number. Close to what I make working a full and part time job after 7 yrs of college (in which I lost money due to tuition and unpaid internships while many of them probably did not go to college, or had significantly less college and graduate education, and started gaining earlier) and I had 60 K in loans to pay back with and work far more hours hours and they get world travel and celeb status (which may lead to higher paying acting roles or paid non wrestling appearances) as a perk. I would also imagine some get more for PPVs as well. And some probably get a share of merch as well. Depending on the injury that may help pay for the reported lack of health insurance-speaking of which for those that stay healthy, they save health insurance premiums. (and what about the trainers we see on reaction. Are they not TNA provided healthcare?)

Also, I stopped following a lot of the online reports because the sites I got them from are what trashed my computers and I'm not going through that again. But when I did follow the KO's were consistantly beating a lot of the guys segments on spike and probably should get rasies if that is still holding true. But remember too that TNA is international. Are they drawing internationally, or mostly in one or two markets? People like Hogan are still hugely over elsewhere and may even draw more abroad than here. Do people in India care about Taylor Wilde or like the BP? Are they even allowed to watch it in all countries, or do they get censored/edited out to avoid offending some of the cultures they market in that have markedly different values than us? do people buy Wilde or kong shirts or action figures?

[Stennick]

source: www.pwtorch.com

Though they may be big stars on television and draw relatively high ratings, that doesn't necessarily translate into big checks for the stars of TNA's Knockouts division.

In light of Awesome Kong's contractual dispute with TNA Wrestling, multiple sources have noted that the average pay for a female performer in the organization is between $200 to $400 per appearance. However, it's widely assumed that Christy Hemme and Lisa Marie Varon (a/k/a Tara) make more money due to their past ties with World Wrestling Entertainment with sources believing that Kong makes slightly more than $400 per shot, which is considered a "high end salary" in the No. 2 wrestling organization in the World.

It's interesting to note that a female performer who made the "high end salary" of $400, exclusively appeared on television, and appeared on every single television event held over the course of a calender year would only garner $26,000 at most. Although, that number comes in before one figures in road expenses, wardrobe expenses and taxes. Regarding travel, TNA solely covers airfare, leaving talent to cover the rest including lodging. Also note, there is no downside guarantee, thus meaning talent only get paid when they are used.

With that being said, TNA holds live events most weeks and permits talent to seek independent bookings, thus allowing them to garner more money. Furthermore, television exposure greatly increases a wrestler's booking fee, most especially for talent previously not seen on national television.

Regarding Kong, she has asked for a raise on several occasions but company officials have apparently not honored her request despite her lofty standing on television. Kong reportedly blew up last spring when she found out that then newcomer Brutus Magnus was being paid more than her.

It was reported recently that Kong has regularly vented backstage about the company spending frivolously on newcomers. Since then, multiple sources have confirmed that she was very upset with Ric Flair's wife being treated to limousine service on the company's dime at a recent show. TNA never grants limo service to its female performers.

It is believed that Kong has several years remaining on her contract with TNA. She refused to appear on the company's recent UK tour
and at time it was widely assumed that she was upset with Bubba the Love Sponge's controversial remarks concerning the country of Haiti. However, multiple sources say the issue has since been resolved and that her ongoing problems with the organization are related to pay.

The primary reason Gail Kim left TNA for World Wrestling Entertainment was due to the significant discrepancy between the amount of money being offered by both companies. According to multiple sources, Kim did not want to leave TNA, but felt she had no choice but to bolt for WWE due to the massive difference in pay.

So yes they do get to do house shows but they have to pay for their own rental car they have to pay for their own hotel, their own food, etc. So if you make 200 bucks a show and you spend 80 of that on a room and another 10 on food for the day and you have to drop another few hundred on the house show run on a car you're coming out with less than HALF of that going in your pocket.

Of course Hyde refuses to give any acceptance to the "dirt sheets' when it comes to TNA. To his credit I don't see him quoting them against the WWE either. That being said is you can't have your cake and eat it to. YOU can't say "Vince is evil and Trips held everyone down and Vince likes big men" you can't say all that and then turn around and say they are wrong about TNA. The PWtorch is right more than their wrong and since Kong, Taylor Wilde, Gail Kim and SO many others have come out and said this exact same thing I think its pretty fair to lend fact to it.

I wasn't saying they work forty hours a week I was saying the amount they make is EQUAL to someone making nine bucks an hour at McDonalds for forty hours a week.

I think I have more than proven my numbers and examples are at the very least credible and logical. I think I've supplied more numbers in favor of my side than anyone has come up with for the otherside of it. There isn't a single National or INternational entertainment company or sports franchise in the United States that pays less than what TNA does and the closet I have seen is a good ten grand ahead in base pay alone. For a SOCCER league in the United States with little to no television and even less exposure than what TNA has.

[liontamer]

good article quote.

And I'm not disputing that they make far less than WWE, they most likely do as TNA is not as big or established yet.

But that said, I don't think it's fair to take food, lodging, taxes etc out of the salary as everyone pays that and I would imagine there is some food at the tapings, although I will say I'm surprised if TNA doesn't pay some sort of lodging for the shows they travel for. And if she is exclusively TV/PPV then that's 26K if that only includes impact and PPV for 64 days work. That includes explosion (which I've never seen and will assume is weekly) then that's around 46K for 116 partial days work, again not bad.

Going just with the impact and PPV numbers (since I have no idea how explosion's tapings work into this), they tend to tape 2 or more impacts in a week, and If I recall correctly Dec and Jan were all 4 weeks in 1 week. That means you only work on a 1-4 of days on 24-38 weeks of the yr depending on if the PPVs fall on different weeks and is still a pretty sweet deal. I would also think health insurance for a person working at sunglasses hut is a lot more affordable than being a wrestler so wilde may be working as much for
that as the money. (And I don't think it's fair to suggest Wilde has to work at sunglasses hut BECAUSE she works for TNA an is paid so little. She probably worked a regular job as an indy wrestler too and is probably making out much better now).

And while the extra thing is interesting, that still isn't comparable, because I doubt most extras get steady work so maybe 5-10 appearsances a yr as an extra does not pay as well as being in TNA even though it's better per appearance, and I doubt extras get food, lodging, travel or insurance either and they also pay taxes. Extra's are also part of movies that often profit far more than TNA or even WWE probably does in a year so the directors have more money to throw at them.

Also as you noted they make more on outside appearances as a result of being in TNA. I would imagine that Kong makes more/appearance now than pre TNA for indy shows so having ever been in TNA still benefits her, although probably not as much as if she'd been in WWE and then left.

And, while they may pay for their own gear and travel and whatnot, you do get tax write-offs for that as a business expense, although probably not for food (each individual would have their own business, it's what a lot of dance/martial instructors and entertainers do, and really pretty much everyone should do) so it's still not as bad as it sounds on the surface.

While it's not entirely accurate, I'm going to challenge those complaining about reports on TNA's pay. Try playing TEW as TNA and paying everyone better, good luck keeping the company afloat.


Also seeing Nash in one of the earlier posts is just plain funny as I'm sure he's getting well more than $400/appearance and is probably in the category of people you are complaining about as being overpaid, not to mention that I thought I heard he re-signed within a week after saying that (although I haven't seen him on TV since), as did EY recently.

[Hyde Hill]

This is becomming an endless debate and due to lack of real FACTS and the purely subjective idea of what is FAIR pay it is mainly becoming opinion. I was just pointing out to Blackman that there is no FACTUAL basis to think TNA is paying its UNFAIRLY more or less then any other company in or outside wrestling.

And it is a dumb reason to not watch the product just because of that even if it was the case. Stop watching it because of bad booking I can get but not because of that no. Because as soon as you start doing that you have 2 options. Start your own farm/country or die.

PS does anyone have the DIRECT link to where Kong said this stuff, I think it could have been on Divadirt? As it could have been all out of context etc stuff as the sheets are want to do.

[eayragt]

This is becomming an endless debate and due to lack of real FACTS and the purely subjective idea of what is FAIR pay it is mainly becoming opinion. I was just pointing out to Blackman that there is no FACTUAL basis to think TNA is paying its UNFAIRLY more or less then any other company in or outside wrestling.

But their is strong evidence of TNA pay for some of their stars, so this is what the debate is based on. This is being compared to known's from outside wrestling.

At the end of the day pay is a measure of market forces, and evidence suggests that there's a relatively large people who could fill up TNA's lower and midcard, so their pay is pants. They hope to become the next big breakout star and make a living, or be picked up by WWE and get misused... and make a better living. TNA has had pay disputes, or people leaving them because of pay (Kong, Young, Kim). TNA have a right to not increase their contracts, as they know there are people who can and will step in (male wrestlers easily, female wrestlers not quite as easily). Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it wrong. Same way as other businesses can chew up and spit out lower paid workers.

Well, in both cases it might be wrong, but hey. Stennick said it best yesterday - he thinks the pay that has been evidenced for some wrestlers along with the no-benefits sucks and he considers it wrong - but still most indy wrestlers would and should jump at the chance to join TNA (I say most as this is US mainly - there's more money to be made more regualrly in Mexico and Japan).

Doesn't make it right, but we're not all capitalists. If we can moan at the banks bonuses we can moan at TNA's pay structure (or what we have evidence for of it) too.

[PeterHilton]

PS does anyone have the DIRECT link to where Kong said this stuff, I think it could have been on Divadirt? As it could have been all out of context etc stuff as the sheets are want to do.


Of course Hyde refuses to give any acceptance to the "dirt sheets' when it comes to TNA. To his credit I don't see him quoting them against the WWE either. That being said is you can't have your cake and eat it to. YOU can't say "Vince is evil and Trips held everyone down and Vince likes big men" you can't say all that and then turn around and say they are wrong about TNA. The PWtorch is right more than their wrong and since Kong, Taylor Wilde, Gail Kim and SO many others have come out and said this exact same thing I think its pretty fair to lend fact to it.


You do actually do that quite a bit Hyde; it's all good to call out 'the rag-sheets' when it's criticism towards TNA but 'journalistic integrity' could be questioned on every subject, in every industry. So unless we're supposed to limit ourselves to talking about ONLY what appears on the screen, it's pointless to bring it up.
Meltzer has been around for as long as has BECAUSE he's been right quite a bit. We're not talking about his opinions (which can be annoyingly snarky) but the sum total of the reports passed around in regards to pay.

A few pages back I showed a breakdown of what a TNA performer might make on a three day house show swing, i gave the benefit of the doubt and assumed the fee was even higher than reported, and it still showed that the performer would come out making ...well, not that much.

And you guys are picking nits in Stennick's examples and ignoring the over-all point: people in the entertainment industry, who are on national TV on a weekly basis, whether it be as actors or as athletes, even if they are on the lower end of the scale, tend to make a comfortable living.

No one expects them to be set for life.

But the fact that a midcarder on a national level wrestling program takes home less than a midlevel retail management job...to ME is unfair.

[PeterHilton]

Well, in both cases it might be wrong, but hey. Stennick said it best yesterday - he thinks the pay that has been evidenced for some wrestlers along with the no-benefits sucks and he considers it wrong - but still most indy wrestlers would and should jump at the chance to join TNA (I say most as this is US mainly - there's more money to be made more regualrly in Mexico and Japan).


totally agree with this

[Stennick]

there is no FACTUAL basis to think TNA is paying its UNFAIRLY more or less then any other company in or outside wrestling.

And it is a dumb reason to not watch the product just because of that even if it was the case.

As it could have been all out of context etc stuff as the sheets are want to do.


Hyde there are more facts that they DON'T pay fairly (Taylor Wilde, Kong, Gail Kim, and countless others, the Flair's wife Limo ride, the Hemme contract etc.) than there are that they DO pay fairly. There are so many articles on how low these performers are paid and I can't find a single one stating the oppposite. If this was not the case I would imagine there would be women standing up SCREAMING "hey thats not right they pay us GREAT" as there would be with any other employer that was being unfairly called out by an employee or former. You see it all the time he said she said but the only saying TNA has going is from Dixie and Eric who by the way Hyde are JUST as bad about being delusioanl liars as the "sheets" as you like to call them if not worse.

I agree with you though its a stupid reason not to watch the product I don't watch it for a million other reasons however its also something that should be brought to light. TNA makes such a huge deal when they beat ECW in the ratings or when they have any other success that might present them in the same glimmer of light as the WWE. They strive so hard to be a part of that group. People constantly say they're not competing and I agree they're not competing well. However you can't tell me the failed MOnday night run, the falling over themselves to point out how much better their women and X Division are even their tag teams, the hype they made on live air about beating ECW on ONE occasion in the ratings like it was some sort of huge war that they were finally winning. Like it or not they do try and compete with the WWE what do you think ECW was about? All thsee guys coming on air taking shots at Vince, what do you think the Voodo Kin Mafia was? They have done it COUNTLESS times and they will continue to do it until Bob Carter turns the lights out. They are trying to compete and if you're trying to compete ON AIR you should atleast be a respectable paying company for your size off air and I think I have poited out across both sports and entertainment mediums they are by FAR the lowest paying.

Oh by the way the thought occured to me that Beckham has to make more than 19K because the minimum allowed is 33K and I assure you Beckham didn't move his entire family across the pond for 30 Grrr.

Also there you go again Hyde with "the sheets take things out of context" and Bischoff doesn't? And Hogan doesn't? And Dixie doesn't? Dixie might be the most delusional of the bunch but yet I never see you get after he when she makes stupid comments on her twitter or wherever else in the media. yet the first time Dave posts him opinion on something or something that you don't like is posted on here about TNA you start screaming "rag sheets this" and "out of context this" and "gossip that". When unless as PH said unless we're going to ONLY talk about what we see on screen then its all out of context. We say "they're not pushing this guy or they're not doing that" how do WE know why they aren't doing that? We don't yet we all still comment on it because thats what wrestling, thats what all sports and entertainment is about having an opinion as a fan.

[PoisonedSuperman]

If they can make more money elsewhere don't you think they would? I mean you're not really forced to sign a contract, now I do understand that you can "out play" or in wrestling case "out grow" your contract but all in all you signed the original so you felt that that was a smart move at the time.

And 19k? I WISH I made that much. Especially this year, I'm wayyyy down.

[Slagaholic]

TNA pays their workers so poorly because they have no reason to pay them more. It's that simple.

You don't suddenly start paying guys significantly more money because their current pay "not right." Until wrestlers unionize (LOL), or a company with a similar TV deal to TNA opens and begins paying their workers well enough that guys begin leaving TNA to work there (don't hold your breath) the pay rates won't change.

This whole argument is silly and holding TNA to a standard no other company is held to. US wages have been stagnant for a while now. There's no reason for TNA to pick up the 'proper pay' flag and run with it other than for the IWC to applaud them in between the vicious bashing of their product and rants about why they don't watch TNA. Get annoyed all you want, but business is business. Raising pay won't raise ratings.

[liontamer]

question:

Not sure whether or not it factors into the debate at all, but wondering if anyone saw/read the reason Kaz left WWE so fast after jumping ship.

From what I recall, he was undfeated and using the same gimmick as in TNA, so if he got that much more money, I'm wondering why he'd ask for release so fast.

[20LEgend]

Wiki says:

"He later revealed that he had asked for his release after realizing that the company had no plans to revamp its cruiserweight division"

[juggaloninjalee]

I thought Kaz made more money in TNA because he could still do indy bookings. Didn't AJ Styles stay with TNA for this reason too?

Thought I heard that a long time ago.

[liontamer]

Wiki says:

"He later revealed that he had asked for his release after realizing that the company had no plans to revamp its cruiserweight division"

That's kind of ironic given that now he's back with TNA and they've more or less buried the X-division

[Slagaholic]

That's kind of ironic given that now he's back with TNA and they've more or less buried the X-division

And he's been a big part of the biggest TNA storyline of the past year. I'm sure Kaz isn't too angry about about it.

[sebsplex]

That's kind of ironic given that now he's back with TNA and they've more or less buried the X-division

I seem to remember seeing something about the WWE asking him to cut his hair being a factor too.

[Hyde Hill]

In other news:

Kaval/ Low- Ki has been released by the E. TNA would do well to (re) sign him if they are serious about rebuilding the X-Division.

Gen Me have extended their contracts. Good matches with the Guns but where do they go from here and will they learn to become less spotty?

Hogan is back in the hospital. Bad for him but generally good for the product for people of my tastes.

And the observer is reporting TNA is looking to tape some Impacts outside the zone. Please TNA get out of the Zone!!!

[TakerNGN74]

TNA was decent in my opinion tonight, I was actually able to watch it tonight because I didn't have my normal Thursday Night schedule. My only problem with the show tonight was The Iron Man Match come on two overtimes was a bit rediculas if you know that you can't do a match in fifteen minutes then don't do it. I know it was scripted that way but it still is annoying. Also the interview with Ken Anderson was pointless in my opinion and it took away from the time that the Main Event could have had. I am praying for just one week where the show is properly timed and they get through everything before reaction starts. It really makes me mad that they start the main event two minutes before they go off of the air only to continue it on reaction. I know that they have had problems with timing of matches etc which is why Reaction was created but come on its a bit rediculas.

[BHK1978]

And the observer is reporting TNA is looking to tape some Impacts outside the zone. Please TNA get out of the Zone!!!

Not sure if that is a wise course of actions. Nothing will make them look more bush league than if they hold it outside of the Impact Zone and nobody shows up. When the original ECW used to have TV tapings in Massachusetts they did not draw all that well. Therefore, they would have everyone from the cheap seats move down to the floor to try and make the arena look fuller.

[Bigpapa42]

Not sure that I can ask this question without sounding incredulous and negative... but did TNA really have a 15 minute "Iron Man" match tonight?

[BHK1978]

Not sure that I can ask this question without sounding incredulous and negative... but did TNA really have a 15 minute "Iron Man" match tonight?

My thoughts exactly, I was thinking at the minimum an Iron Man match should last a half an hour. Even then I would not really consider that to be an Iron Man match.

[TakerNGN74]

Like I said in my post above it was absolutely pointless to do that because they did the fifteen minutes fine it should have been over after that. No need to go into an overtime because that totally kills the point of an iron man match. Sure when WWE has hour long Iron Man Matches going into overtime makes sense but when you only have an iron man match for fifteen minutes its totally pointless. On top of that Its not really an Iron Man Match unless it is an hour in my opinion thirty minutes maybe but definately an hour.

[The Final Countdown]

Not sure that I can ask this question without sounding incredulous and negative... but did TNA really have a 15 minute "Iron Man" match tonight?
Wow...seriously? I was looking forward to that match, too. 15 mins is just silly. An Iron Man match needs to be AT LEAST 30 minutes. I'd say 30 on TV, 60 if it's on a PPV.

[BHK1978]

Wow...seriously? I was looking forward to that match, too. 15 mins is just silly. An Iron Man match needs to be AT LEAST 30 minutes. I'd say 30 on TV, 60 if it's on a PPV.

Don't get me wrong, I liked the match. I just was not an Iron Man match...:D

[Blackman]

TNA never learns. It would be a great research subject about organisational learning.

[Wrestling Century]

Not sure if that is a wise course of actions. Nothing will make them look more bush league than if they hold it outside of the Impact Zone and nobody shows up. When the original ECW used to have TV tapings in Massachusetts they did not draw all that well. Therefore, they would have everyone from the cheap seats move down to the floor to try and make the arena look fuller.

If I remember correctly, the last time TNA held shows out of the Impact Zone didn't draw good. It was when Samoa Joe was the world champ, if my memory is correct.

[20LEgend]

Not watched all the show but I'm I imagining that when Ric Flair is in a promo he always seems to want to out in another word when it's another's promo time, when Foley threw down his mic he stopped himself from saying something and although it may have just have been to show the anger it seems like Flair/Foley is improvised (or semi-improvised.) Does anyone else think that Flair's interuptions are just him trying to get an extra word in on the other guys time as it seems like people have to struggle to get a point across and have to start it about 5 times before he lets them get it out:p

[jwt13]

If I remember correctly, the last time TNA held shows out of the Impact Zone didn't draw good. It was when Samoa Joe was the world champ, if my memory is correct.

BFG wasnt in the impact zone

[The Final Countdown]

So...earlier in the show, Bischoff was going to do a "weigh in" for Morgan vs. Anderson, and later on, Tenay & Taz talk to Anderson via satellite from Green Bay? That's rather silly. Were the doctors going to examine him through the monitor?

[cappyboy]

If I remember correctly, the last time TNA held shows out of the Impact Zone didn't draw good. It was when Samoa Joe was the world champ, if my memory is correct.

In that case it sounds to me more like that was the fault of having the world title on a guy who changes identities like you and I change pants.

[20LEgend]

So...earlier in the show, Bischoff was going to do a "weigh in" for Morgan vs. Anderson, and later on, Tenay & Taz talk to Anderson via satellite from Green Bay? That's rather silly. Were the doctors going to examine him through the monitor?

My thoughts exactly.

What do people see for Doug Williams vs. AJ Stlyes at Genesis, I kinda hope AJ leave Immortune as I'd hate to see doug lose the belt so soon, also it's a TV don't have it change hands twice on back2back PPV's please!

[Hyde Hill]

TNA was decent in my opinion tonight, I was actually able to watch it tonight because I didn't have my normal Thursday Night schedule. My only problem with the show tonight was The Iron Man Match come on two overtimes was a bit rediculas if you know that you can't do a match in fifteen minutes then don't do it. I know it was scripted that way but it still is annoying. Also the interview with Ken Anderson was pointless in my opinion and it took away from the time that the Main Event could have had. I am praying for just one week where the show is properly timed and they get through everything before reaction starts. It really makes me mad that they start the main event two minutes before they go off of the air only to continue it on reaction. I know that they have had problems with timing of matches etc which is why Reaction was created but come on its a bit rediculas.

Actually they don't have a problem with timing of matches in that sense. They are doing it on purpose with the goal to break the viewing habits of people and for them to ad Reaction to their viewing schedule. If this is wise is another question and it does not negate their other timing and balancing issues.

[Hyde Hill]

BFG wasnt in the impact zone

I think he is referring to the Las Vegas shows when the Zone was being refurbished for HD taping. They where actually sold out but given the location that was not much of a feat. Hard Rock cafe LV if I remember correctly.

[Hyde Hill]

In that case it sounds to me more like that was the fault of having the world title on a guy who changes identities like you and I change pants.

His title run was largely pre identity change. And the shows at that time had Sting as champ as they where post BFG 2008.

[Wrestling Century]

I think he is referring to the Las Vegas shows when the Zone was being refurbished for HD taping. They where actually sold out but given the location that was not much of a feat. Hard Rock cafe LV if I remember correctly.

I was actually referring to some of the PPVs that were set outside the Impact Zone, like (I think that it was) No Surrender 2008 that was held in Canada that year. I'm pretty sure that they did a few PPVs in a row that were at of the Impact Zone.

[Hyde Hill]

Ok i thought you where referring to the tapings of Impact. The ppv's didn't do too badly if I remember correctly. Not great but not bad either. Depends on ones definition though.

[Wrestling Century]

Ok i thought you where referring to the tapings of Impact. The ppv's didn't do too badly if I remember correctly. Not great but not bad either. Depends on ones definition though.

IMO the attendance is bad compared to the PPVs they held in the Impact Zone. Also, Happy Holidays everybody! :)

[The Final Countdown]

IMO the attendance is bad compared to the PPVs they held in the Impact Zone. Also, Happy Holidays everybody! :)
Don't people get into the Impact Zone for free, though?

[TheEffect]

Don't people get into the Impact Zone for free, though?

yep i wet to orlando twice for Impact tapings, both were free.

[Hyde Hill]

IMO the attendance is bad compared to the PPVs they held in the Impact Zone. Also, Happy Holidays everybody! :)

In what way? Only percentage of arena filled would qualify but given that the Zone is smaller and free and with people doing it as part of their visit to Universal it doesn't really compare well.

[TracyBrooksFan]

TNA cant charge admission at Universal that why the shows are free. Also not everyone who go to the theme park get in its.

[BHK1978]

I was at the show where Joe won the title and at the time it was their highest attended event ever. And there were only like five thousand people there. Now I guess you could look at it one of two ways.

1. That is better than because at least that is 5000 paid customers (for the most part).

2. It was bad because a company on National TV should draw better than that.

I just think it is a very bad idea for TNA to have shows and PPV outside of the Imapct Zone. Plus the crowd seems to be more rabid in the Impact Zone because they are told to cheer and the got in for free so of course they are happy.

[TracyBrooksFan]

I was at the show where Joe won the title and at the time it was their highest attended event ever. And there were only like five thousand people there. Now I guess you could look at it one of two ways.

1. That is better than because at least that is 5000 paid customers (for the most part).

2. It was bad because a company on National TV should draw better than that.

I just think it is a very bad idea for TNA to have shows and PPV outside of the Imapct Zone. Plus the crowd seems to be more rabid in the Impact Zone because they are told to cheer and the got in for free so of course they are happy.

The crows is not told to cheer they cheer when they want to.

[BHK1978]

The crows is not told to cheer they cheer when they want to.

I thought that they had JB and Val hype the crowd, much like WCW used to do when they taped at MGM. Okay sorry about that.:o

[Beeker]

I just think it is a very bad idea for TNA to have shows and PPV outside of the Imapct Zone. Plus the crowd seems to be more rabid in the Impact Zone because they are told to cheer and the got in for free so of course they are happy.

I couldn't disagree more. The Idiots at the Impact Zone are hurting the product at this point. They're the worst sort of marks (they're not smarks or smarts). TNA needs to get OUT of Free Show Orlando and make the move from a cult promotion to a National promotion that will sink or swim on its own merits.

Living in the Impact Zone Goldfish Bowl is not good for the company or the performers.

[The Stallion]

I thought that they had JB and Val hype the crowd, much like WCW used to do when they taped at MGM. Okay sorry about that.:o

They do hype the crowd. You can see them in the background during certain shots during the airing of iMpact and the PPv's. I think hyping the crowd is different though then telling them when to cheer.

[Hyde Hill]

All because one person once COMPARED them stupidly to cast members people actually think they are being treated as such. But yeah they need to get out of the zone eventually. Drawing around 1K outside the zone while less profitable is still long term more profitable and inductive for growth and actually knowing who gets good crowd reactions then staying in the zone.

[Slagaholic]

I couldn't disagree more. The Idiots at the Impact Zone are hurting the product at this point. They're the worst sort of marks (they're not smarks or smarts). TNA needs to get OUT of Free Show Orlando and make the move from a cult promotion to a National promotion that will sink or swim on its own merits.

Living in the Impact Zone Goldfish Bowl is not good for the company or the performers.

I hope you realize that TEW is not close to an accurate representation of how companies run and expand.

[Hyde Hill]

Go to 6:20 I lolled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPjVmaYLFj4

[Hyde Hill]

Dammit no more Reaction as Spike has cancelled it. Dot Net reported it first, Bisch confirmed it.

[Stennick]

Yeah I remember at one time there was talk of REaction, Impact and X Plosion all being on the same block of programming and now we're right back to just iMpact.

Kudos for trying something new TNA

[eayragt]

Wow, that means I might be able to watch a full Main Event in the UK for once...

[BHK1978]

Wow, that means I might be able to watch a full Main Event in the UK for once...

So Reaction was not on over there. In the words of Johnny Carson, "I did not know that." You were not missing much, I mean I liked Reaction at first. However, after it was on for a few weeks I grew bored with it. Not sure why but I just did not seem to take to the format.

[|Anderz|]

Wow, that means I might be able to watch a full Main Event in the UK for once...

It was only the live show that we missed the main event of.. it was a Battle Royal I think..

we've been getting edited Impacts that show the full main event ever since..


the more important question is; where is Impact going to be show next week? as Bravo is shutting down... any ideas? they signed a two year deal earlier on this year so Sky will have to put it on somewhere..

[The Stallion]

Go to 6:20 I lolled.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPjVmaYLFj4

That was funny. I can imagine that both the TNA booking meetings and the WWE booking meetings are both like that. Thats some funny **** right there.

[eayragt]

It was only the live show that we missed the main event of.. it was a Battle Royal I think..

we've been getting edited Impacts that show the full main event ever since..


the more important question is; where is Impact going to be show next week? as Bravo is shutting down... any ideas? they signed a two year deal earlier on this year so Sky will have to put it on somewhere..

There's been at least one more, and I haven't watched a Main Event since. Good to see that they rectified it at least.

[Hyde Hill]

What other one? As far as I have heard it was just the live show because of lack of editing time/effort on TNA's part.

[|Anderz|]

There's been at least one more, and I haven't watched a Main Event since. Good to see that they rectified it at least.

it might have been the week before the live show as well then.. all i can recall is being mightily pissed off and its not happened since..

ive been looking around for info on where Impact will be next week.. but ive come up empty so far.. only rumours, nothing concrete..

[juggaloninjalee]

That was funny. I can imagine that both the TNA booking meetings and the WWE booking meetings are both like that. Thats some funny **** right there.

I agree I laughed at that ending. Pretty funny stuff.

[Slagaholic]

Mick Foley's Sketchers Shape ups line = the greatest singular 5 seconds in TNA's history

[Jaysin]

I'm behind on TNA, so I'm not watching tonight, but a local wrestler was supposed to debut in TNA tonight. How'd he do?

Here's a pic of the guy because I'm not even sure what his ring name is in TNA

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs405.snc3/24533_113086802039986_100000160014328_278587_79693 38_n.jpg

[BHK1978]

I'm behind on TNA, so I'm not watching tonight, but a local wrestler was supposed to debut in TNA tonight. How'd he do?

Here's a pic of the guy because I'm not even sure what his ring name is in TNA

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs405.snc3/24533_113086802039986_100000160014328_278587_79693 38_n.jpg

He was called Baby Brother because he was supposed to be Amazing Red's baby brother. He took on JJ in his double MMA challenge. He really did not have a chance to do much due to the nature of the challenge.

I have not really watched TNA in a couple of months (because there was always something better on TV at the time, I did see some of last week's show.). Anyway, when/how did Rob Terry turn heel?

Also, I have to say Madison Rayne looked pretty hot with the dark hair. And Velvet Sky all I have to say about her is: :D

[liontamer]

He was called Baby Brother because he was supposed to be Amazing Red's baby brother. He took on JJ in his double MMA challenge. He really did not have a chance to do much due to the nature of the challenge.

I have not really watched TNA in a couple of months (because there was always something better on TV at the time, I did see some of last week's show.). Anyway, when/how did Rob Terry turn heel?

Also, I have to say Madison Rayne looked pretty hot with the dark hair. And Velvet Sky all I have to say about her is: :D

last week after initially turning down an offer from flair he reconsidered following his loss to RVD and interferred in the ME of immortal's behalf. He's fortune/immortal's new matt morgan.

[TakerNGN74]

TNA was okay tonight, it just seemed like a mediocre show in my opinion, no match on the card really made me jump out of my seat and no match really put me to sleep so all and all it was a night of average action in my opinion.

[Chikbot]

And Velvet Sky all I have to say about her is: :D

isnt this always true lol

[Hyde Hill]

If anyone is interested in the Dutch Mantell Guest Booker shoot pm me.

[hellboy2]

sorry for this question as its off topic with up to date TNA but does anyone remember a fued between AJ Styles and Dusty Rhodes several years ago, i woke up with one of thier matches in my head and i can't find anything about it, i'm certain it happened on TNA

[Bigpapa42]

If anyone is interested in the Dutch Mantell Guest Booker shoot pm me.

I actually already grabbed it but haven't had a chance to watch it. The promo for it looked interesting. Have you seen it yet?

[Hyde Hill]

I actually already grabbed it but haven't had a chance to watch it. The promo for it looked interesting. Have you seen it yet?

Yeah but need to re watch it to make a true opinion. But to be honest the promo is better then the actual show. You won't learn much more about how TNA works/ed unfortunately and the booking is really an aside to the whole thing. Plus the KC crew and Dutch where horribly under prepared in some cases confusing the Jan 4th show and the First Mondaynight skirmish episode and other factoids.

[Hyde Hill]

sorry for this question as its off topic with up to date TNA but does anyone remember a fued between AJ Styles and Dusty Rhodes several years ago, i woke up with one of thier matches in my head and i can't find anything about it, i'm certain it happened on TNA

As in American Dream or Golddust/Black Reign Dustin Rhodes? Dusty used to be in a position of authority in TNA but can't remember him having a match.

[hellboy2]

sorry The American Dream Rhodes it must of been one of those dreams that seemed real and started to believe them, never mind cheers for replying

[hellboy2]

just had my nephew text me its TNA September/October 2003 he even sent me a link of where i could find all the old matches online world of wrestling or something

well thats how long its been since i have watched wrestling properly, and its been on my mind that much that i had to send my nephew on a mission to help me

[Hyde Hill]

Yeah shoulda gone there first as well here you go:

October 1, 2003 - TNA: Jeff Jarrett & Dusty Rhodes defeated AJ Styles & Vince Russo..
October 8, 2003 - TNA: AJ Styles defeated Dusty Rhodes to retain the World title when Dusty passed out during the figure-4..

[hellboy2]

never heard of that website until now, its really cool, cheers for the help

[20LEgend]

Weird question but why is all of tonights impact up on desirulez.net already when it hasn't finished, how do they get the full show before its aired pr had it been aired and finshed in some places already?

Also: Wasn't Desmond Wolfe supposed to show up tonight :(

[Self]

Yeah but need to re watch it to make a true opinion. But to be honest the promo is better then the actual show. You won't learn much more about how TNA works/ed unfortunately and the booking is really an aside to the whole thing. Plus the KC crew and Dutch where horribly under prepared in some cases confusing the Jan 4th show and the First Mondaynight skirmish episode and other factoids.

I'm an hour and a quarter into it, and I'm disappointed in that it's largely a generic shoot interview, albeit one with a booker, so the focus is skewed in that direction. When I watch these Guest Booker dvd's, I want to see these guys put together shows. I want to see their booking philosophies in action. I've always been a story guy. I'm fascinated by how other people construct stories. So I don't want to hear Dutch Mantell discuss his viewpoint on Cornette & Russo's rivalry. I don't really care much about how TNA works. I want to see how he works, and how he books this fantasy scenario, so that hopefully I can learn something practical.

Dutch seems like a good dude, and if this were a normal shoot interview I'd be digging it. However, I feel I'm not getting what I signed up for in watching this. So that's left a bad taste in my mouth.

[TheEdgeOfReason]

I'm an hour and a quarter into it, and I'm disappointed in that it's largely a generic shoot interview, albeit one with a booker, so the focus is skewed in that direction. When I watch these Guest Booker dvd's, I want to see these guys put together shows. I want to see their booking philosophies in action. I've always been a story guy. I'm fascinated by how other people construct stories. So I don't want to hear Dutch Mantell discuss his viewpoint on Cornette & Russo's rivalry. I don't really care much about how TNA works. I want to see how he works, and how he books this fantasy scenario, so that hopefully I can learn something practical.

Dutch seems like a good dude, and if this were a normal shoot interview I'd be digging it. However, I feel I'm not getting what I signed up for in watching this. So that's left a bad taste in my mouth.

Watch one of Ravens shoots if you can. Hes talked about storylines he pitched to Vince before.

[Self]

Watch one of Ravens shoots if you can. Hes talked about storylines he pitched to Vince before.

I've seen a couple of Raven interviews, and I always dig them. The last one was about 'How To Be A Good Babyface' and it was awesome. Learned so much. Fairly basic stuff in many respects (all you need is fire and sympathy) but as a bloke who has never been to wrestling school, I never would have known it without that interview, and it can help me write... anything. A screenplay. Another diary. Anything. Any hero in any story I write will now try to get sympathy from the audience from the situation he is in, and will show tremendous fire in fighting back.

Although (and I've said this before) Raven himself annoys me, so I can only stomach 1 interview with him every few months, despite the lessons he teaches.

[jwt13]

Getting ready to watch this PPV I have a feel Matt hardy will debut tonight

[20LEgend]

Getting ready to watch this PPV I have a feel Matt hardy will debut tonight

Wikipedia has it listed that tonight RVD is facing Matt Hardy... weird

[jwt13]

Wikipedia has it listed that tonight RVD is facing Matt Hardy... weird

Really? Maybe hes already there I dont read the news sites any more but I've always liked Matt I hope he works hard in TNA

[Johnny Fenoli]

Really? Maybe hes already there I dont read the news sites any more but I've always liked Matt I hope he works hard in TNA

He's there... so is Chris Harris.... UH OH! :eek:


I'm watching the PPV, only because I have nothin' else to do... I haven't watched TNA in like 2 weeks, with all the College Bowl games....

[jwt13]

He's there... so is Chris Harris.... UH OH! :eek:


I'm watching the PPV, only because I have nothin' else to do... I haven't watched TNA in like 2 weeks, with all the College Bowl games....

I havent watched much the last two weeks I got a PS3 for christmas so Black Opps have taken over :)

[20LEgend]

The way Shelley goes from injured to fine again is unbelievable!

[jwt13]

The PPVs been pretty good so far

[jwt13]

AJ Face turn during this match I call it

[20LEgend]

AJ Face turn during this match I call it

I rate you could be right, fingers crossed :p

Edit: :(

[Slagaholic]

There needs to be a worldwide ban on white men braiding their hair.

[20LEgend]

There needs to be a worldwide ban on white men braiding their hair.

LOL and referees doing one thing in one scenario and different a second later BS

[Slagaholic]

At least it's a different way to screw someone.

[Slagaholic]

Mr. Anderson transformed into a Cen@$$hole tonight.

Bravo TNA really enjoyed this PPV.

[jwt13]

Holy **** that was awesome

[Rob5KC]

probably the best ppv I've seen in awhile from them. Nicely done TNA, now keep it going.

[MattitudeV2]

Holy **** that was awesome

Not really you just had another WWE guy go over a TNA Guy and Fortune holds all the gold but the big gold belt....

TNA Genesis 7/10

[Slagaholic]

Oh for the love of pete...

I'm not going to argue with you.

[jwt13]

Not really you just had another WWE guy go over a TNA Guy and Fortune holds all the gold but the big gold belt....

TNA Genesis 7/10

what's wrong with fortune holding all the gold? It was a 8.5/10

[TakerNGN74]

Not really you just had another WWE guy go over a TNA Guy and Fortune holds all the gold but the big gold belt....

TNA Genesis 7/10

Don't you mean the big purple belt? Nevermind I just read the results and saw who won so they will probably change it back.

[SaySo]

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3122/screenshot20110109at114.png

[smurphy1014]

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3122/screenshot20110109at114.png

For a guy who has had 3 months off Matt Hardy looks to be out of shape. Not to mention his poor choice in hair style.

[TakerNGN74]

Matt has always been out of shape even when he was in the WWE.

[Self]

The way Shelley goes from injured to fine again is unbelievable!

I know, right? I can't believe people say he's the talented one in MCMG.

Matt has always been out of shape even when he was in the WWE.

"Always" is a bit of a stretch. Last couple of years, sure. Since the whole abdominal explosion thing.


Decided to sleep instead of watching the PPV. Anything on this show I should go out of my way to see?

[20LEgend]

Decided to sleep instead of watching the PPV. Anything on this show I should go out of my way to see?

I didn't see Lethal and Kaz or the last two matches but from what I saw. if you like MCMG vs. Beer Money watch that but if you saw any of there match before it was very similar, Rayne vs. Mickie was a standard knockouts match, 'Bully Ray and D-Von was a decent brawl, Abyss and Doug was made good by Doug Williams. Matt vs rvd was quite good but the crappy ending ruins it, and the double J, Angle exhibition was a joke.

[QFresh]

Didn't watch the show, so I don't know how it all came across in live action, but after reading the recap... Sounds like a whole lot of awful stuffed into 2.5 hours.

One, big surprise on the whole Matt Hardy thing... How long before the eventual Hardy vs Hardy feud? Betting lines are open.

Anderson winning the title... So... Yeah... Lets not have a program between the two, and just go ahead and put the title on him, because if the new TNA nWo had all the titles, that's gonna look kinda bad. Yeah... Lets ruin Jeff's momentum. And to make it look like a lot of awesome, we'll have 5 different people interfere.

Oh... And lets end a Street Fight by DQ. I'm not even going to comment on that one. :confused: Ludicrous.

And as far as everything else goes, and again, I didn't watch the show, so maybe I'm wrong, seems like a big mess. Will I watch the show... Probably not... But if I'm wrong, and this show somehow made some kind of sense... But again, probably not.

[Hyde Hill]

Meh you can't really rely on recaps though. Seems the people here that actually watched it liked it.

[sabataged]

I think they HAD to give the title to Anderson because isn't Hardy going to plead guilty here this month? Odds are he has to do some sort of jail time, even if he doesnt you know the press would splash something about World Champion pleads guilty

[Self]

Meh you can't really rely on recaps though. Seems the people here that actually watched it liked it.

I tend to find TNA more enjoyable than reviews and recaps make it out to be. Wrestling reviewers are a nitpicky and negative bunch.

[1234]

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3122/screenshot20110109at114.png

Ha, at first I though Kurt Angle got braids :p

Silly me.

[MattitudeV2]

what's wrong with fortune holding all the gold? It was a 8.5/10

It's the same song and dance remember Main Event Mafia

[TracyBrooksFan]

I was at Genesis and it was good but i did not like the Morgan vs Anderson or Jarrett vs Angle matches.

[b0shey]

http://img843.imageshack.us/img843/3122/screenshot20110109at114.png

Oh my god, did Matt Hardy sitt on his Ass and eat dougnuts after he was fired from WWE, He looks worse now than he did then.

[Hyde Hill]

It's the same song and dance remember Main Event Mafia

Remember any heel faction ever? Plus now the don't hold all the gold anymore.

[lazorbeak]

Oh my god, did Matt Hardy sitt on his Ass and eat dougnuts after he was fired from WWE, He looks worse now than he did then.

As somebody mentioned on another board, he's an ugly skirt away from being an even lazier version of Raven. Except worse in every way.

[BHK1978]

I think they HAD to give the title to Anderson because isn't Hardy going to plead guilty here this month? Odds are he has to do some sort of jail time, even if he doesnt you know the press would splash something about World Champion pleads guilty

Yes I read the same thing, so they pretty much had a gun to their collective heads so to speak. I mean the last thing you want is your champion in jail.:D

[eayragt]

It's the same song and dance remember Main Event Mafia

Apart from Fortune actually has some younger people in it.

As somebody mentioned on another board, he's an ugly skirt away from being an even lazier version of Raven. Except worse in every way.

At first glance I was trying to work out which fat Samoan TNA had signed...

[-laz-]

anyone else bust out laughing when jeff hardy started smoking, that guy thinks hes so cool i bet this will be his new gimmick when he gets released from prison

http://celebrityexile.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/fonzie2.jpg

[Slagaholic]

I tend to find TNA more enjoyable than reviews and recaps make it out to be. Wrestling reviewers are a nitpicky and negative bunch.

Especially when it comes to TNA. Wrestling reviewers when they review TNA shows become worse than LOST fans.

Honest question, when was the last time someone didn't analyze a show and suspended their disbelief? I'll admit during that Hardy-Anderson match I totally forgot that wrestling was fake and was standing up rooting for Mr. Anderson. From the sound of it the crowd did too. It was the best use of overbooking I've seen in wrestling since Foley won the WWF title the first time.

But then again every IWC fan watches and all they do is analyze and analyze. They watch every match, every show like they're personally being asked to cast a vote for the Academy of Pro Wrestling Arts and Sciences.

Meltzerism has ruined pro wrestling fandom.

[lazorbeak]

Especially when it comes to TNA. Wrestling reviewers when they review TNA shows become worse than LOST fans.

Honest question, when was the last time someone didn't analyze a show and suspended their disbelief? I'll admit during that Hardy-Anderson match I totally forgot that wrestling was fake and was standing up rooting for Mr. Anderson. From the sound of it the crowd did too. It was the best use of overbooking I've seen in wrestling since Foley won the WWF title the first time.

But then again every IWC fan watches and all they do is analyze and analyze. They watch every match, every show like they're personally being asked to cast a vote for the Academy of Pro Wrestling Arts and Sciences.

Meltzerism has ruined pro wrestling fandom.

Totally agree with this. Wrestling is a variety show. I look back at some of my all-time favorite events and they had hardcore junk wrestling, big superheavyweights punching each other, and compelling storylines in the main event. Not every segment on every show needs to be some sort of 5* classic. In fact, the part of TNA I enjoy least is the lack of variety when it comes to constant gimmick matches and my general boredom with bland indy guys who seem to think they need to put on some sort of show-stealing match in the midcard or on TV.

[sabataged]

Apparently someone thinks that when you lose your hair its a good time to put in braids.

[MattitudeV2]

Apart from Fortune actually has some younger people in it.

With the focus being around ERIC BISCHOFF and with so many guys in this faction nobody stands out it's sad when all the had to do was replace A.J. with Abyss and what do you know Abyss wins the TV Title SMH...

[Slagaholic]

We Get It

[QFresh]

Meh you can't really rely on recaps though. Seems the people here that actually watched it liked it.

Yeah, but I read the recap on tnawrestling.com. No wrestling reviewers... Straight from the mouth of the beast.

[thommohawk]

I tend to find TNA more enjoyable than reviews and recaps make it out to be. Wrestling reviewers are a nitpicky and negative bunch.

I second your disposition on that one, I've said for multiple years now that I find TNA to be miles better to watch than a lot of people would have you think when you read some of the stuff that's written and said about them online one would think they were the most embarrassing promotion on the planet but that's simply not the case. TNA do make mistakes, I personally don't dig a storyline or two or a gimmick or two at any given time I watch TNA - but the truth is TNA do a lot more right than wrong with their presentation....MCMG vs Beer Money ? Epic. AJ Styles vs Kurt Angle ? Awesome. PPV Main Event formal intros ? Truly epic.

Anyway I may not agree with certain things TNA do but ultimately I agree with more than not and I suspend my disbelief and criticism and allow myself to be entertained and that's exactly what TNA do, they entertain me and I enjoy the show. I think a lot of people are blinded by WWE and prejudiced against TNA to begin with in most cases for whatever reason I feel.

I read what is written of TNA and I look at what I'm watching on a week by week basis and I think 2 things to myself; 1) this is much better than they try to make it out to be. 2) TNA at it's worst and I have honestly seen much worse from WWE if truth be told - remember the Katie Vick angle, the god angle, most of Hornswaggle's stuff, Gillian Hall's angles ? Were any of those done in TNA and not WWE they'd have been ripped to shreds for it but as it's WWE they get away with a lot because they're by far the most visible.

If you don't believe that then I have just 2 words for ya - Jeff Hardy....less than a year and a half ago he was WWE World Champion, now until very recent he was TNA World Champ and a heel (much more interesting to watch and something new) and people call him a poor man's Raven knock off - were he in WWE like that he'd probably be the darling of the company. I'll bet if Randy Orton was in TNA with his Viper gimmick they'd be calling him a poor man's Stone Cold rip off!

So WWE get away with a lot just because it's WWE and TNA get crucified a lot purely because they aren't WWE. It's fanboyism at it's finest. A lot of it is BS and far from fair but damn if what I'm saying here isn't the truth.

EDIT

One more thing I almost forgot to mention, the Mr Anderson concussion thing.....I'm sorry but imho that was probably the biggest case of overreacting any excuse bs to hammer TNA that I think I've ever seen - it was a botched chair shot and nothing more, the aftermath of which was aired amicably on a follow up program for follow up segments! - I say again were that WWE it would have been a different story - remember Mick Foley's HIAC with Taker and the state he was legitimately in in the back after the match and yet they zoomed in on all the guts n glory immediately after the match when he had a thumb tack up his nose ? How was that not the same thing and yet people said nothing....I say the same thing about the Anderson thing as I do about the Foley thing, they risk injury by simply performing for our entertainment and so when injuries occur and they decide to show it for our entertainment, it's okay to have a moral compass but it is what it is so at least be consistent with the complaints!

[Bigpapa42]

So WWE get away with a lot just because it's WWE and TNA get crucified a lot purely because they aren't WWE. It's fanboyism at it's finest. A lot of it is BS and far from fair but damn if what I'm saying here isn't the truth.

Sorry, but no.

Its fine that you enjoy TNA. That's great. But trying to write off those who don't or those who find critism with it as "fanboys" is rather insulting.

Does TNA get over-criticized at times? Absolutely. But the same thing happens to the WWE, where things get ripped apart more than necessary by fans too. Quite simply, that is going to happen when you have passionate hardcore fans of any form of entertainment.

Bringing up stuff like Katie Vick and Hornswoggle is irrelevant. Trying to use the WWE's crap to justify TNA's crap is negative justification and it doesn't work. Crap is crap. And that stuff you mention is often regarded as some of the worst wrestle-crap the WWE has produced. So its not exactly like people overlook it utterly.

I have already seen more than a few people call the babyface Orton a Stone Cold ripoff. If Jeff Hardy turned heel in the WWE and adopted mannerisms reminiscent of Raven, people would be calling him a Raven knockoff. Right or wrong, it would happen. Assuming that such criticisms are aimed only at TNA is simply wrong.

Edit - as for comparing Anderson to Foley... Such comparisons lose a lot of value given that its been nearly a decade and a half between. People react differently to things like concussions now because we understand a lot more about them and the long-term brain damage they cause.

[thommohawk]

Sorry, but no.

Its fine that you enjoy TNA. That's great. But trying to write off those who don't or those who find critism with it as "fanboys" is rather insulting.

Does TNA get over-criticized at times? Absolutely. But the same thing happens to the WWE, where things get ripped apart more than necessary by fans too. Quite simply, that is going to happen when you have passionate hardcore fans of any form of entertainment.

Bringing up stuff like Katie Vick and Hornswoggle is irrelevant. Trying to use the WWE's crap to justify TNA's crap is negative justification and it doesn't work. Crap is crap. And that stuff you mention is often regarded as some of the worst wrestle-crap the WWE has produced. So its not exactly like people overlook it utterly.

I have already seen more than a few people call the babyface Orton a Stone Cold ripoff. If Jeff Hardy turned heel in the WWE and adopted mannerisms reminiscent of Raven, people would be calling him a Raven knockoff. Right or wrong, it would happen. Assuming that such criticisms are aimed only at TNA is simply wrong.

Edit - as for comparing Anderson to Foley... Such comparisons lose a lot of value given that its been nearly a decade and a half between. People react differently to things like concussions now because we understand a lot more about them and the long-term brain damage they cause.

I'm sorry but I disagree completely with a lot of this, I haven't seen anyone complain about Orton's gimmick and the whole tit for tat thing *is* relevant because it's the truth - people *do* have such agendas, I'm not saying crap isn't crap - but I just find it funny that TNA get negative comments for most things they do and when WWE does the same thing nobody seems to say a word....now either one of us is covering tracks or simply put we read 2 very different internets lol.

As for the Foley/Anderson time difference thing, I don't buy that and I'll tell you why....yes it *was* a different and more risque time period, but you aren't seriously suggesting that people legitimately know more about concussed wrestlers and serious injury now than back then and that's the reason for the outburst against TNA rather than it being simple fanboy ammo ? And if so, where were you in 1997-1999 ? It doesn't matter if it was a decade ago as time doesn't change the facts. It was still the same thing. WCW have been guilty of it also for what it's worth.

The Hardy/Raven thing is another thing I don't understand, where do people get that comparison from ? I don't see how the two mannerisms or gimmicks are even remotely similar - Hardy's gimmick or current style has about as much in common with Taker as he does with Raven. Which is nothing. Just like Orton has nothing in common with the Austin gimmick.

[Bigpapa42]

I understand that.. and lets play

"Which One of these things is ALIKE!!??"

Stone Cold Raises his hands on the turnbuckle/
Randy Orton raises his hands on the turnbuckle....

Stone Cold with the lunatic look when delivering a Lou Thez Press/
Randy Orton when delivering a Power Slam

Stone Cold doing mudhole stompings in the corner..../
Randy Orton doing....AWWW HELL you get the point...

That's from the WWE thread. On this forum. From yesterday.

So no, not two different Internets.

This isn't the first time I've seen someone make the comparison. Maybe it doesn't happen that often on the forums you visit, but I've seen it a number of times. Sometimes just being pointed out, as the posterer here seems to do, and sometimes criticized quite a bit.

And no, the long-term damage caused by hits to the head was not fully understood fifteen years ago, nor ten years ago. Not even five years ago. The NFL treats concussion-like symptoms far differently now than it did just a few seasons ago. Why? Helmet-to-helmet hits have become a focal point just this season. Why? I'm not saying that there was no concept of the damage that Foley was doing to his body at the time, but the medical understanding specifically of blows to the head has come a long long way since.

I can't really comment on how close or far Jeff Harydy's current gimmick is from Raven. I've stopped watching TNA.

[NoNeck]

If you can't see the Raven influence in Jeff Hardy's recent stuff, you need to check out some vintage ECW-era Raven on Youtube.

[lazorbeak]

As for the Foley/Anderson time difference thing, I don't buy that and I'll tell you why....yes it *was* a different and more risque time period, but you aren't seriously suggesting that people legitimately know more about concussed wrestlers and serious injury now than back then and that's the reason for the outburst against TNA rather than it being simple fanboy ammo ? And if so, where were you in 1997-1999 ? It doesn't matter if it was a decade ago as time doesn't change the facts. It was still the same thing. WCW have been guilty of it also for what it's worth.



Yes, he seriously was. Former WWE superstar Chris Nowinski wrote a book and then involved with an institute that deals with spreading awareness of the consequences of concussions in athletics. And yes, considerably more research on the brain of these old football pros is known now than was known ten years ago.

Also a lot of the stuff you're saying about people not saying something about Foley's condition then or criticizing WWE in any way is just completely, 100% the opposite of truth.

WWE was lambasted in the media for months because of the actions of one man, who coincidentally had the brain matter of an 80 year old alzheimer's patient after the shots to the head he had taken in his career. This was a company that responded by creating a wellness policy designed to prevent early wrestling-related deaths. To say nobody blames them for the things they do is preposterous.