RW Forced Chemistry Discussion

[Adam Ryland]

As this could potentially be a very long and very dull discussion, please keep discussion about who would qualify for forced chemistry in real world mods in this thread - that way you won't clog up the journal discussion.

For reference, here is the TEW definition of chemistry: "It is when the interaction between two workers produces a result that is both regularly and noticeably better or worse than could be reasonably expected from their individual statistics."

[TeemuFoundation]

I, for one, will be adding the horrible chemistries, as well. Chemistries such as Randy Orton and Triple who simply do not click in the ring, what so ever. Or Mr. Perfect and Shawn Michaels. It still boggles me that these two didn't put on the best match ever seen in wrestling when they got into the ring. Their match at SummerSlam 1993 was just.. bad.

So I will definately include bad chemistries that I feel people have/have had.

[djthefunkchris]

I, for one, will be adding the horrible chemistries, as well. Chemistries such as Randy Orton and Triple who simply do not click in the ring, what so ever. Or Mr. Perfect and Shawn Michaels. It still boggles me that these two didn't put on the best match ever seen in wrestling when they got into the ring. Their match at SummerSlam 1993 was just.. bad.

So I will definately include bad chemistries that I feel people have/have had.

This is what I think was being warned to be honest. Although HHH and Orton might not have "Great" chemistry, I think it's too early to be making judgement calls for worker's that will probably have another 10 years left wrestling. The difference, is your going reverse with it (Adding in Bad Chemistry that could possibly end up a different way in a year).

The other I don't have a problem with, as one is deceased, and that cannot change.

[TeemuFoundation]

This is what I think was being warned to be honest. Although HHH and Orton might not have "Great" chemistry, I think it's too early to be making judgement calls for worker's that will probably have another 10 years left wrestling. The difference, is your going reverse with it (Adding in Bad Chemistry that could possibly end up a different way in a year).

The other I don't have a problem with, as one is deceased, and that cannot change.
I do see what you mean and I do understand why some people absolutely hate this feature. But I, for one, just don't feel that Triple H and Orton compliment each other in any way. They both have had good matches with different opponents and have worked with each other on numerous occasions, yet all of their matches from match #1 have been simply terrible to watch.

But honestly, if I make a real world mod with biggest mainsteam and indy promotions, I will probably just add a few forced chemistry notes. But the ability to add those few is just so damn important to me.

My question is are the chemistries editable in the live editor? I suppose they can't be imported because the game wouldn't recognize the worker IDs.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

I'll go with 2 commentary teams I feel play(ed) off each other well:

Gorilla Monsoon and Jesse Ventura, Matt Stryker and Todd Grisham.

[Gigas]

Elizabeth and Macho Man. Jesse Ventura and Vince Mcmahon. Billy Gunn and The Road Dogg. The Dudleys.

[Gigas]

I think Gorilla and the Brain were good together as well. But it was so long ago maybe Im not remembering correctly.

[Adam Ryland]

Elizabeth and Macho Man. Jesse Ventura and Vince Mcmahon. Billy Gunn and The Road Dogg. The Dudleys.

I'd love to know how you're defining chemistry, as three of those suggestions are bizarre...

[mike b]

I think Gorilla and the Brain were good together as well. But it was so long ago maybe Im not remembering correctly.

I remember and yes they were great together.

[Adam Ryland]

For reference I have updated the first post in the thread to provide a definition of what chemistry is.

[Mr T Jobs To Me]

I think Gorilla and the Brain were good together as well. But it was so long ago maybe Im not remembering correctly.

I think I might actually be remembering Gorilla and the Brain myself... They did Wrestlemania 8, right?

[LoganRodzen]

I think I might actually be remembering Gorilla and the Brain myself... They did Wrestlemania 8, right?

They did WM7 as well... for certain matches that didn't involve Heenan managing anyone. I always remember that WM for some reason... maybe it's because I remember seeing it every time I would go to the video store. Slaughter vs Hogan was really over at the time, so was Warrior / Savage.

[Vladamire Dracos]

Monsoon and Heenan pretty much define good commentary team chemistry, I'm surprised anyone would question that.

[TeemuFoundation]

Maybe I'm alone on this one, but a pretty good modern day example of good chemistry would be Edge and Batista. Both of those guys can work well with the right opponent, someone who can carry them. But neither one of them are the types who can carry a "lesser" worker to a really good match. But together, they seemed to have something going on every time they wrestled. I really wasn't expecting their matches to be as good as they were.

I think Edge and Batista had better matches than Edge and Triple H and Edge/Triple H, by all accounts, should have been a better match than Edge/Batists if we were to look at the workers involved in TEW terms of "statistics".

At least that's how I understand chemistry.

[Gigas]

I think it was on Raw before Raw was Raw where Gorilla threw out The Brain in his underwear and it was the last time he was on WWF (at least for a long time, ended up on WCW).

I just remember The Brain in bright red underwear.

[Gigas]

I'd love to know how you're defining chemistry, as three of those suggestions are bizarre...

Using your definition I dont see how they are bizarre at all. Maybe explain why they are bizarre.

[TeemuFoundation]

Using your definition I dont see how they are bizarre at all. Maybe explain why they are bizarre.
I think the point is that announcers such as Monsoon and Heenan are really good announcers and, all things considered, should work well together as an announce team. So it's not necessarily "chemistry" that is making the magic happen, rather than their individual skills in the announcing department.

[Comradebot]

One question:

Will people be able to "turn off" all pre-made chemistries? One of my problems with pre-set potential is the fact that many otherwise decent RW mods were full of it, and it really, really took away from the experience to the point I didn't play the mod.

To me, pre-set chemistry will do the same thing.

[TeemuFoundation]

One question:

Will people be able to "turn off" all pre-made chemistries? One of my problems with pre-set potential is the fact that many otherwise decent RW mods were full of it, and it really, really took away from the experience to the point I didn't play the mod.

To me, pre-set chemistry will do the same thing.
Create an empty database and then copy/paste its empty chemistry file to the database you wish to play? That should reset all the chemistries.

[Self]

Elizabeth and Macho Man. Jesse Ventura and Vince Mcmahon. Billy Gunn and The Road Dogg. The Dudleys.

I'll agree with Road Dogg and Billy Gunn. I vaguely remember their first matches as a throwaway tag team (was he still Rockabilly?) and being surprised by how good they were. If you're doing a pre-1996 historical mod they might warrant good chemistry. Although I was like 13 at the time, so my judgement isn't all that trustworthy.

One question:

Will people be able to "turn off" all pre-made chemistries? One of my problems with pre-set potential is the fact that many otherwise decent RW mods were full of it, and it really, really took away from the experience to the point I didn't play the mod.

To me, pre-set chemistry will do the same thing.

I imagine you can use Mass Delete to get rid of it all in one fell swoop.

[Malioc]

I'd love to know how you're defining chemistry, as three of those suggestions are bizarre...

I don't agree, especially for the non wrestlers.

While I'm partially with you on wrestling chemistries, because a.) match chemistry a far more blurry & not definable than a good "visual fit" of wrestler / manager or a good interaction in verbal style, and b.) there isn't much damage to be done with those side aspects of the game. For game ballance - especially in open games - it matters little, if your dream combo wrestler / diva is "possible" due to chemistry.

Also, I was never a fan of the irreversibility of bad chemistry. In my opinion it is occasionally possible, that chemistry improves (and even decreases) with a (slide) change in style. This is even more the case, if - for example - two family members start into the industry against each other. They may never develope great chemistry, but learning from each other (if they do it) should eliminate bad chemistry over time. Plus, keep in mind that non tag team matches consider opponent-experience at all. You already accepted the effect of experience in certain combinations with tag team experience "retiring" bad chemistry.

I never needed this addition in TEW '08, but it is nice and I probably create some minor "data candy" for myself, if I fall in love with a great possible tag team, that hasn't experience yet.

[Adam Ryland]

Using your definition I dont see how they are bizarre at all. Maybe explain why they are bizarre.

Sure. Elizabeth added nothing - literally, as she rarely spoke and just stood at ringside - to Macho Man's interviews or matches. If they had chemistry then, by definition, he'd have been worse when she wasn't his manager, and that simply isn't true. She enhanced his storylines - occasionally - by giving him someone to be protective over, but anyone could have played that role (up to and including a convincing mannequin) with the same results. I'm hard pressed to think of a more useless manager in the entire history of pro wrestling that Elizabeth, so to have her having chemistry with anyone is utterly and completely bizarre.

If The NAO had good chemistry then, by definition, they'd have been significantly better in tag team matches when together than with other partners. I can't see any way you'd be able to make a convincing argument that the NAO had better quality matches than Gunn managed with any of his other ten billion tag team partners, because they were all pretty mediocre. Same with Road Dogg - having Gunn at his side didn't suddenly cause him to have fantastic matches, he wrestled at pretty much exactly the same quality he always did.

You can pretty much take the above argument word-for-word for the Dudleys too. Are they firing out significantly better matches when together than they could manage with other partners? And if so, given how abysmal their in-ring work is, exactly what levels of suckitude would they then be responsible for? As with NAO, you seem to be badly confusing popularity with ring work. Are the Dudleys more popular together than not? Yeah...but that has nothing to do with their ring work and all to do with their history and well known double team spots.

[shamelessposer]

I'd maybe consider Jericho and Ultimo Dragon to be an example of opponents with good chemistry, but I don't know how much of that "chemistry" came from wrestling each other for weeks on end.

[Derek B]

I'd maybe consider Jericho and Ultimo Dragon to be an example of opponents with good chemistry, but I don't know how much of that "chemistry" came from wrestling each other for weeks on end.

I'm happy and sad that people are already showing how badly misunderstood chemistry is. Hopefully this thread can be used to batter the idea into people's heads for the joy of future mods. Now for some opinions!

Orton vs HHH, I'd actually agree that they have bad chemistry. I've seen enough of both of them to know what I can reasonably expect and each time I've seen them fight (sometimes more than once a night :p) they've underperformed. That's a definition of bad chemistry right there. Chemistry DOESN'T change over time... people just get better as they become better wrestlers, so the people involved should be able to put on better matches.

The varying commentary teams out there are harder to call.... guys like Monsoon and Heenan were always awesome regardless of who they worked with, so it's hard to say if they had good chemistry. I would be tempted to give them a + but it's hard to say for sure because they were top notch on their own anyways and top notch together.

And I'm with Adam on the multiple examples he gave on non-chemistry. Just because a pairing is a success doesn't mean it's chemistry. The APA were a fun team, but they were fun because they had good gimmicks and wrestled similar styles. Doesn't mean they had positive chemistry. Although for a team like the Road Warriors... i'd have to ponder whether I thought they deserved a note. I've not seen enough of them on their own or with others (barring age related skills fading) to judge them well... hmmm....

I'd suggest Rey Mysterio Jr and Kurt Angle as a good chemistry pairing. They are both awesome workers in their own right but whenever I've seen them together they seem to go to another level.

The Hardy Boys are another example of two kinds of chemistry. I'd say they are positive as a tag team as both of them perform a LOT better together than they ever did apart. And yet, put them in a singles match together and they suck even more than you would expect them to against others in singles competition, at least in the matches I've seen between them. From the Royal Rumble where they eliminated each other early to their first tag split and even to their most recent split... never yet seen a good 1 vs 1 encounter between them. Which is a shame. :(

[Hive]

Instead of setting eg. the Dudleys to have great chemistry together, I think it would be much more usefull to simply be able to ensure that they won't randomly get crappy chemistry together...

[Comradebot]

I'd like to go ahead and throw an odd one out there for positive chemistry:

AJ Styles and Tiger Mask

While both are very talented, I was still completely blown away by that match they had on Impact about a year ago. It was short and unimportant, but it's a match that's stuck with me for a while, more so than anything else of equal unimportance that AJ has done.

[praguepride]

Yeah, comparing the Hardys to the Dudley should show the difference in chemistry.


The dudleys performed at the same level whether they were partnered or not. Same with NAO, they wrestled about the same whether they were together or apart.

[Adam Ryland]

Instead of setting eg. the Dudleys to have great chemistry together, I think it would be much more usefull to simply be able to ensure that they won't randomly get crappy chemistry together...

Then you'd set them to have Neutral chemistry.

I'd like to go ahead and throw an odd one out there for positive chemistry:

AJ Styles and Tiger Mask

While both are very talented, I was still completely blown away by that match they had on Impact about a year ago. It was short and unimportant, but it's a match that's stuck with me for a while, more so than anything else of equal unimportance that AJ has done.

Remember that part of the definition is that it has to be repeated - one match, even if it sparkled, could be down to other factors. If they do it several times and it's always better than it should have been, then it's proven chemistry.

[Lucien Sanchez]

Undertaker and Batista were the two that came to my mind straight away. I just seem to dig every angle and match these two have together, even though I don't really enjoy any of Batista's other stuff and Takers slowed down somewhat.

Sticking with Undertaker, him and Shawn Michaels? Both men are still capable of great performances, but every time they're in the ring together it gets raised to another level

I didn't really think of applying it to tag teams, but if I was, I'd definitely pick the Hardys. Exciting together, bland as anything when they're apart...particularly Matt.

[crayon]

I'm glad to see that you can set neutral chemistry, because as I was reading this it suddenly occurred to me that what people were most likely complaining about with random chemistry wasn't that a pairing didn't have positive chemistry, but moreso that it could get negative chemistry. If a team like say, JR and Jerry Lawler simply had neutral chemistry there probably would have been no complaints at all.

With this in mind, positive chemistry is likely going to be a very rare thing in my mod, and neutral will be the go-to setting for those established teams who I don't feel should be getting negative chemistry notes.

I'm still going to keep it to a minimum, but I have to echo teemu and say that even though I may only use it here and there, it'll still be a big deal to me

[Woodsmeister]

GOOD CHEMISTRY
I have to agree with Batista / Undertaker for good chemistry as i expected there match to be passible at best but they were really good.

BAD CHEMISTRY
Triple H / Scott Steiner there matches were terrible whether it was poilitics or just bad timing you can argue. With Triple H's level of consistancy and talent you just wouldnt expect him to have poor matches like the ones they had.

[TCP1]

Undertaker and Batista were the two that came to my mind straight away. I just seem to dig every angle and match these two have together, even though I don't really enjoy any of Batista's other stuff and Takers slowed down somewhat.

Sticking with Undertaker, him and Shawn Michaels? Both men are still capable of great performances, but every time they're in the ring together it gets raised to another level.

I would pretty much agree with most of this, I would also add:

Steamboat and Flair (I appreciate these guys were amazing individually, and should have put on great matches, but their series of matches was better than anything I'd ever seen to this point).

Brock Lesner and Big Show.

Austin and McMahon.

Is that about right?

[mad5226]

How about JR and The King as an annunce team? They seem to play off each other very well and i just never liked either of them the same when they were with someone else.

[James Casey]

I'd be careful about Undertaker and Michaels. Their performances have been restricted largely to the big events and they've been told to go nuts with them.

One possibility for a historical mod would be Umaga/Cena as their Royal Rumble match a few years back was a stunner, and their other matches were all better than a lot of people expected as well. You could make a case for Umaga carrying Cena, but he wasn't able to provide the same results with other workers, so...

On a similar note, how about Cena/Khali? Maybe it was just the booking, but for the two of them to turn out a number of watchable matches was something astonishing.

And the Hardys are my favourite example of chemistry - good and bad. I think derek's been stealing my posts :p

[TeemuFoundation]

Oh! It makes me even more excited that we actually set NEUTRAL chemistry! This is actually more what I really wanted: the ability to block BAD chemistry from two workers. While Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels may have not had "great" chemistry with each other, they certainly didn't have bad chemistry, either and the fact they didn't click at all in some of my games was just a real, real bummer. But now I can set them as "neutral" and don't have to worry about it. Great!

But I just have to get this out of my chest now: Make your own mods, people! If you don't like the real world mods that are available, make your own. I don't like the real world mods that are available for numerous reasons and therefore always create my own mods totally from scratch. Sure, I have my Locations, Angle and Match, etc. files that I import and reuse in different mods, but still. Now, I don't have 7,000 workers in the database with millions of small indy promotions I've never heard of, but the best thing about making your own mod is that you don't have to please anybody. You don't agree with me thinking that Triple H is an above average brawler at best, really overrated, not that great on the mic and only in the position he's in right now because of his "relationships" and hasn't even had a really good match in God knows how long? OK with me, since the only one playing the mod is me.

I can't believe the amount of complaining about the chemistry feature. Hell, no one is forcing you to play these mods that you seem to complaining so much about. Create a database and start working if the mods don't please you. And with the mass delete feature, it shouldn't really be that hard to erase all the forced chemistry notes in the database and there you have it: random chemistry.
Why, Adam, why....why would you inflict such a terrible burden upon the mod community. :(

Now reading diaries if someone gets some "good chemistry" notes...did they really have good chemistry or did the person just take the lazy route and go "I set my ME to have great chemistry with itself."

Now in order to play a real world mod I'm going to have to clean out chemistry files. I guess no biggie for me but I shudder to think how much abuse this feature is going to get when

I am a bit curious as he wrote that the c-verse will have "virtually no" pre-set chemistry, which means there will be some set.

Seriously though, this feature makes me very sad and really tops off an all-together miserable week for me. I woke all excited thinking this was going to be a great release and then I find a feature that even Adam himself is thinking is a bad idea. Followed by a whole bunch of munchkin's posting "yes, now I can abuse chemistry all day long" :D
So, you're actually sad that there were people happy about an announced feature for the upcoming TEW? Really? I hate, I hate, I HATE for this thread to go down this route but I really have to ask you: Why on earth does it bother you if a player, who pays the same amount of money for the game that you do, finds it fun to abuse chemistry? Do you stay awake at nights thinking "At this very moment, someone, somewhere is abusing the forced chemistry feature in TEW 2010!"? Just chill. The great thing about TEW is that it can be played in many different ways. That's the whole beauty. So, someone feels that HBK and Kurt Angle have great chemistry and wants it to appear in the game, as well? I may disagree with that, but it's their game, I can't think of a single way how it could possibly bother me. It's like someone wanting to play Grand Theft Auto with their feet in their own home and you started whining and complaining "No! That's not the right way, GTA is meant to be played with your hands! HANDS!"

Just grow up.

[Tempest Kane]

Realy wish you didnt add this one Adam, its only going to ensure that 90% of all the mods of 2010 will suck more than Missy Hyatte.

Please remove it.

[FINisher]

Ehh. You can still and always turn them OFF. It's an option. I'm sure that it's just few clicks and all the pre-set chemistry notes will be erased when you're visiting the editor. :)

[James Casey]

Given that there's likely to a mass delete button for chemistry I don't see the problem in it being added. It's useful to reflect the pairings acknowledged as having chemistry (Sting/Foley, for example. Foley himself said they brought the best out in one another) and if you don't want any of that in there? Delete!

I would have liked the option to give Rip and Jay netural chemistry in my current game, at least... :p

[Vladamire Dracos]

I didn't even think about the fact that this would give us the ability to assign neutral chemistry! THAT alone makes this addition worthwhile. No more Flair/Steamboat stinking up the joint in DOTT, or the Roadwarriors and so many established teams not working as they do in real life.

[Genadi]

JBL and Batista I remember thinking had horrible chemistry but it was a few years ago and they didn't feud for too long I think. Then again they are both pretty sloppy in ring and JBL was pretty banged up at the time I'm not sure without bad chemistry the match would've been any better?

I definitely don't want too add too many to my mods, I'm debating now if Austin and Rock should be added to Montreal Aftermath considering they didn't light it up in the ring together for another year or so after the database is set (Dec, 1997). I don't like the idea of having a chemistry preset in that scenario where the two workers in question haven't really worked together yet. Not only does it bring up all kind of butterfly effect questions but it takes away alot from the challenge and fun I think.

[randomfreeze]

Hopefully this doesn't get overused in real world mods like the drug/alcohol stats were in '08. A few mods I used went crazy giving people steroids without proof and made alcoholics who could barely walk down to the ring the norm. For me, it wasn't fun to play a real world mod when the first thing I had to do was edit these stats down to zero. I hope this feature doesn't go that way and get overused to the point where I'm seeing chemistry notes of some type in every match I run.

[PhenomenalPat]

I like this feature alot, mainly for the ability to block BAD chemistry. Just in my current TNA game I've got a couple that I feel should be set to good or neutral.

Abyss has two bad chemistry relationships that I couldn't understand. One with Kurt Angle and the other with Tomko. Angle and Abyss I feel have good chemistry, while I'd make Tomko and Abyss neutral.

Mschif and Alissa Flash have poor chemistry both when partnered and against eachother in my game...those would both be changed. Not saying they make eachother significantly better, but they certainly don't have a negative effect.

I also got a bad chemistry note with Madison Rayne and Velvet Sky. Again, I don't beleive they have good chemistry, but they certainly don't have a negative effect on eachother.

Plus I feel AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Daniels would all have great chemistry together. This feeling may not be widely agree with, but I would think a positive chemistry note would be justified for people who are able to wrestle eachother over and over and continuously match or even top the previous efforts.

[justtxyank]

So glad for this feature and really for only one reason: Steamboat/Flair. I've played several DOTT games, and two were ruined by Steamboat and Flair having bad chemistry. Now don't get me wrong, they still pulled B matches and occasionally A matches, but as we all know, Steamboat/Flair would have been embarrassed to have a B match together. There are a ton of examples of chemistry in history, but to me that is the most obvious one. I don't think Flair has ever been "exciting" in the ring except when he's worked with Steamboat.

[Phil Parent]

I'll turn it off for my games and probably won't use it in my mods...

The thing is, I always thought EWR/TEW as a discovery game as much as anything. So yeah, you gotta dig for stuff. If chemistry is forced and then you play a mod that is heavy in Forced Chemistry entries, then a very important part of the game goes away, that is trying to make things click.

Not to mention, it's very subjective at times that two guys have good chemistry or not.

[praguepride]

.

Austin and McMahon.



No, they were awful in the ring together. The storyline where they were opponents was awesome but that has nothing to do with chemistry as envisioned by the game. The closest approximation would be to have McMahon as Austin's manager, set that as excellent chemistry and then just have them fighting in all the angles.

[praguepride]

I can't believe the amount of complaining about the chemistry feature. Hell, no one is forcing you to play these mods that you seem to complaining so much about. Create a database and start working if the mods don't please you. And with the mass delete feature, it shouldn't really be that hard to erase all the forced chemistry notes in the database and there you have it: random chemistry.

And I can't believe the amount of complaining and whining people caused to get this feature added, Mr. "I'm not buying this game unless I can edit chemistry"



So, you're actually sad that there were people happy about an announced feature for the upcoming TEW? Really? I hate, I hate, I HATE for this thread to go down this route but I really have to ask you: Why on earth does it bother you if a player, who pays the same amount of money for the game that you do, finds it fun to abuse chemistry? Do you stay awake at nights thinking "At this very moment, someone, somewhere is abusing the forced chemistry feature in TEW 2010!"? Just chill. The great thing about TEW is that it can be played in many different ways. That's the whole beauty. So, someone feels that HBK and Kurt Angle have great chemistry and wants it to appear in the game, as well? I may disagree with that, but it's their game, I can't think of a single way how it could possibly bother me. It's like someone wanting to play Grand Theft Auto with their feet in their own home and you started whining and complaining "No! That's not the right way, GTA is meant to be played with your hands! HANDS!"

Just grow up.

My issue is three-fold (with examples)

1) Over-loaded mods

Elizabeth and Macho Man. Jesse Ventura and Vince Mcmahon. Billy Gunn and The Road Dogg. The Dudleys.

This issue's been beaten to death but I'll bring it up again for sake of completeness before broaching original territory. Mods will become even more bloated and inflated then they already are.

2) Diaries:

I would have liked the option to give Rip and Jay netural chemistry in my current game, at least... :p

Now if that kind of chemistry shows up in a diary where it just so happens that Cornell/Hawkins or Rich Money/Jack Bruce chemistry appears and they start tearing down the house, the "epic-ness" of the event is forever ruined because for all I know, they went in and made it that way. I don't doubt that people will use this to cheat their way to greatness, or at least attempt to. I suppose there was never any "proof" that someone got the grade they reported, so maybe it's not that big of a deal, but then again I also loved seeing plans derailed or altered because of chemistry. I loved it when the obvious main event had kinks thrown into it so people had to adapt and change. Marvin Main Event vs. Marty Main Event goes awry because of chemistry, but suddenly Joe Jobber who has excellent chemistry with both of them gets a chance and the diary becomes new and exciting as Joe Jobber actually gets a push because he's the only one who can gel with the stars. Which leads me to #3

3)Boring Booking

I didn't even think about the fact that this would give us the ability to assign neutral chemistry! THAT alone makes this addition worthwhile. No more Flair/Steamboat stinking up the joint in DOTT, or the Roadwarriors and so many established teams not working as they do in real life.

So glad for this feature and really for only one reason: Steamboat/Flair. I've played several DOTT games, and two were ruined by Steamboat and Flair having bad chemistry.

Now I worry that it's just going to be reptitive booking after reptitivte booking and we'll get 30 diaries with Cornell/Hawkins or Bruce/Money feuds because people won't let the game take them into new directions.

To tie this into real world, I find diaries that don't try to exactly imitate the real world far more interesting. If I wanted to imagine a Flair/Steamboat match, I'd watch one instead of reading people's descriptions of one. I love it when Flair/Steamboat get bad chemistry because that forces people to break out of the norms and actually alter their stories. Maybe the Road Warriors don't have great chemistry so they're forced to go sas singles, possibly even feuding rivals. THAT's interesting, not reading about people re-creating what has already happened. If I wanted to watch the Road Warriors be the Road Warriors, I'd watch the real Road Warriors. Diaries are awesome because they allow you to imagine a "what-if" scenario. What if Flair/Steamboat didn't have good chemistry and did stink up the joint? I just can't imagine the narrow-mindedness that feels the game is ruined because Flair/Steamboat don't have amazing chemistry. Here's a thought...try something new :D

In all honesty, I don't really care how people play the game on their own time. I don't. If there was an honor code or something so that people wouldn't bring their cheapness back to the forums, I wouldn't care about this at all. I just see the future of a forum flooded with people turning the game onto easy mode and bragging about how awesome they are. I see boring diaries where nothing unexpected happens, it's just the same obvious match ups and feuds over and over again. And finally, I forsee people becoming even more entrenched into their ruts and not realizing the true beauty of the game. Therefore the game gets boring and repetitive for them and they miss out on all that the game can provide.

At least before the game pretty much had a chance of forcing you to get out of your rut...now, not so much.

[MrCanada]

I would love if Adam would provide a short list of real world workers who would have appropriate chemistry, as it would help me understand since I dont think I do.

Would Paul London & Jimmy Yang have good chemistry as opponents? When wrestling they are better vs. each other.

Would Matt Striker & Todd Grisham have good chemistry as announce partners? I feel that together they enhance each other's abilities.

What would qualify as good tag chemistry? Jericho & Big Show? I feel Jericho enhances Show, but Show doesnt do much for Jericho, does that much matter?

And what would "bad chemistry" be? Two people who just ALWAYS suck? So should Rob Terry have bad chemistry with everyone?

[praguepride]

Chemistry is that intangible something. When two good wrestlers put on a good match against each other, that's not chemistry. When two good wrestlers put on an amazing match against each other every single time, that's chemistry. Flair/Steamboat seems to be the popular example. They're both decent wrestlers against other opponents, but against each other their game gets stepped up noticably and consistently.

[MrCanada]

To add to the sub arguement. I dont understand why people on both sides of the "this is good / this is bad" arguement are seemingly getting so flustered over it.

Praguepride, really? Its a bad feature because people could "cheat in diaries"? The game has an in-game editor. They already can by simply making all their guys better at the beginning of the game or more over. And if a person decides to make the game easier on themselves why does it matter at all to you? Diaries, to me, have always been about the creativity. The most read diaries are the creative ones, with interesting writing styles and storylines. If it does get "repetitive" people would stop reading the diary... and moreover why does that even matter? Why is that anything to be brought up? It doesnt effect 1 thing in the world. As of over-cluttered mods... and your point? Mods are made the mod maker. If he decides to put it in, his call. If he doenst, his call. Again, doenst effect anything, and I dont see how hard it would be to hit "delete all" or "clear", or better yet, just copy and paste a blank chemistry.tew file into the tew folder if there is no clear function.

The arguement seems to be more of a purists attacking those who like more modability. And the guys who like the idea, simply defending themselves for liking it. This move is by far more for Real World mods (Adam will say so himself), because people what Steamboat/Flair to have good chemistry. What honestly is the worst that could happen? Nuclear fallout? Well I play that Fallout 3 game from time to time, and that seems like a fun world to live in. What? That made no sense? GET OVER IT! haha.

EDIT: not attacking you pride, just your's is the only post I read and I felt I should respond. I still love you like I love people I've never met on forums.

[SuperOwens]

I like this feature alot, mainly for the ability to block BAD chemistry. Just in my current TNA game I've got a couple that I feel should be set to good or neutral.

Abyss has two bad chemistry relationships that I couldn't understand. One with Kurt Angle and the other with Tomko. Angle and Abyss I feel have good chemistry, while I'd make Tomko and Abyss neutral.

Mschif and Alissa Flash have poor chemistry both when partnered and against eachother in my game...those would both be changed. Not saying they make eachother significantly better, but they certainly don't have a negative effect.

I also got a bad chemistry note with Madison Rayne and Velvet Sky. Again, I don't beleive they have good chemistry, but they certainly don't have a negative effect on eachother.

Plus I feel AJ Styles, Samoa Joe and Daniels would all have great chemistry together. This feeling may not be widely agree with, but I would think a positive chemistry note would be justified for people who are able to wrestle eachother over and over and continuously match or even top the previous efforts.

So glad for this feature and really for only one reason: Steamboat/Flair. I've played several DOTT games, and two were ruined by Steamboat and Flair having bad chemistry. Now don't get me wrong, they still pulled B matches and occasionally A matches, but as we all know, Steamboat/Flair would have been embarrassed to have a B match together. There are a ton of examples of chemistry in history, but to me that is the most obvious one. I don't think Flair has ever been "exciting" in the ring except when he's worked with Steamboat.

In real life yes. TEW isn't real life, if it was it would be a simulation. You can run all the same matches and cards and have the exact same things happen as it did back then.

That to me would be a borefest.

[darthsiddus2]

y'know I honestly didn't think people would forget about the Misawa vs Kenta Kobashi matches.... those two had amazing chemistry! anyway I personally will not be using this feature as I don't think its all that important. maybe if I actually have the attention span to start a diary I may use it

[praguepride]

On a scale of 1 - 10 on the "bent out of shape scale" I'm a 2 for most people, a 5 for TEW in general.

I'm sad that Adam caved to pressure (probably not even from a majority, but just a very vocal minority) and released a feature he's not proud about. Congrtaulations, you made a great developer feel like a sellout.

As for how people use it, I really don't care, that's the '2' on the scale, and that is mainly from #2 and #3. Boring booking, and the loss of that wonderful chaos that was such an intregal part of the game, and chemistry notes are no longer special. It was exciting before to realize "ha! Their main event has terriible chemistry, what will he do now?" but now there's always the doubt that says "maybe they modded it in"...

I know that was always the case with stats and match grades etc, but I always felt Chemistry, as an extension of Destiny was "off-limits" so people couldn't fake it. Now that they can and will, chemistry notes have lost that golden veneer of being beyond the grasp of the player.

I feel like you might as well just let players pick the grades they get from their matches :D

"Oh, Flair vs. Steamboat, that's an A* match, Big Show vs. Cena will be a 'B', Rock vs. Hogan will be an 'A'..."

[Eisen-verse]

It was exciting before to realize "ha! Their main event has terriible chemistry, what will he do now?"

Agreed on this one. One of my favorite parts of the game is not knowing who will work together and who will not. Roughly, While it sucked, Lead Belly and Grease Hogg had terrible chemistry as competitors in my PSW diary which led me to never really have them face off despite being entrentched in a huge feud with eachother. Yes, it sucked cause I couldn't go ahead with plans, however, it seemed more realistic, as a booker, to have to roll with what is given to you instead of being able to pre-set everything in your favor.

I see why some may want this feature. I Guess, for me at least, I'm going to stay away from it.

Great work, though, Adam.

[Bigpapa42]

If this is used carefully and judiciously, then this is a good thing, I think. Like anything, if its not used as intended, then it becomes a negative to a mod rather than a positive.

I think I would avoid using it in diary games, for obvious reasons, but might make occassional use of it for non-diary games. Just to ensure a key feud doesn't get ruined with negative chemistry, but beyond that.... Probably not...

[Adam Ryland]

I'm sad that Adam caved to pressure (probably not even from a majority, but just a very vocal minority) and released a feature he's not proud about. Congrtaulations, you made a great developer feel like a sellout.

Please don't put words into my mouth. I personally won't be using the feature, but I can see why people would - I am certainly not ashamed of having written a good feature that helps the people who wanted it and has no impact on those who don't, nor do I see it as selling out.

[Self]

Switching back to the 'who has good/bad chemistry' dispute, I disagree with whoever suggested JBL & Batista having bad chemistry. Those matches were kinda poor, but given their skills, that's exactly what I'd expect.

I always thought CW Anderson & Tommy Dreamer had good chemistry. Their ECW PPV matches together were AWESOME whereas apart I always found them so-so. May have been their styles though.

CM Punk & Kane have had a bunch of bad matches. Again, it could just be a clash of styles, and neither of them are phenomenal on their own, but it seemed extra bad when they faced off.

[praguepride]

nor do I see it as selling out.

Good :)

[Ping von Erich]

I'll go with 2 commentary teams I feel play(ed) off each other well:

Gorilla Monsoon and Jesse Ventura, Matt Stryker and Todd Grisham.

Finally someone else who loves Striker and Grisham. Matt Striker is one of the best color men I've ever heard.

[totti]

Has RVD and Lynn been mentioned yet?

[praguepride]

Anyway, back to the topic at hand:

Why did Gorilla get the Metzler awards for worst announcer for several years running. Was that while he was next to the Brain or was that before/after?

[alden]

So as far as i can tell it works out like this. Correct me if i am wrong.

lets take flair vs steamboat. I would not put them as having great chemestry even though they had great matches because 1) they both had great matches all the time with many diffrent people 2) the two did not put on MUCH better matches then they did with other people 3) there skills would allow them to have great matches on there own.

now lets take string and flair i would put them as good chemestry not great for the following reasons 1) sting was pretty new at the start of there matches and he did not have a huge track record at that point yet 2) sting vs flair was the best matches of his carrier at that point 3) i don't think STING had the skillset at that point to get a great match out of everyone. Flair yes had all the three things but he did have to carry sting somewhat.....so is that what it was? was it flair carrying sting to a great feud or would that be chemestry?

[darthsiddus2]

If from what I understand what chemistry is you'd be right Aiden.

[BuddyGarner]

I hope that the cornellverse tag teams like the Vessey's, Tokyo Express, Young Guns have excellent chemistry when teaming together. So that it's a big deal when the reunite or an explanation of why Bryan and Larry keep teaming together despite their massive skill difference.

[Self]

I hope that the cornellverse tag teams like the Vessey's, Tokyo Express, Young Guns have excellent chemistry when teaming together. So that it's a big deal when the reunite or an explanation of why Bryan and Larry keep teaming together despite their massive skill difference.

Tag Team Experience not enough?

[Eisen-verse]

Has RVD and Lynn been mentioned yet?

On top of that, Jerry Lynn and Justin Credible!!

[Krazy Killian]

Ok so I have a question.

MCMG - are they big on experience or chemistry? I mean they are well travlled as a team but like still mind bogglingly good!

Then there's Miz and morrison? They certainly clicked and got the best of each other. Is that plus chemisty?

[alden]

I think mcmg are due to tag team experience.......are they any better as a team then on there own? I have seen some great shelly work in roh by him self.

[The Celt]

I think the problem here is that Chemistry is so subjective in people's minds. One person can totally believe that two workers have chemistry while a another person with the exact same tastes about wrestling could disagree.

If I could just say one thing to mod makers: Use this feature sparingly.

Chemistry is when two workers produce a match significantly better (or worse) than what their stats should allow them.

In the RW there are very few examples that are definitely examples of chemistry.

I think the only example of chemistry that is universally accepted is Rob Van Dam and Jerry Lynn.

But why is this universally accepted?

It's key to take some factors into consideration: Both workers were/are very talented regardless of those matches between each other. Both workers already had popularity (at least in RVD's case). And also both worker were producing good matches with other opponents.

However the reason their are accepted as having chemistry is because their matches together were very significantly better than those against any other opponent.

Remember at this Van Dam had already feuded and teamed with someone else very talented, over and who had good matches against others in Sabu. And while those matches are well received with can see that RVD achieved a even greater grade of match against Jerry Lynn.


To sum up; should you add chemistry, please remember not to use is casually. It's purpose is to reflect cases where anyone can tell that there is something special is between two workers. The results have to be so clear. It can't just be used to show that two talented workers would have a good match, Its purpose is to show a match that is far beyond the exceptions or capabilities of those involved.

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

To be honest, I hope that destiny-generated good and bad chemistry happens less often in games in TEW2010. In reality, good and even bad chemistry is pretty rare. Most of the time it's up to individual skills. Yet, already in my IWF game, I have at least 12 chemistry notes for good or bad, and I doubt any promotion has ever had so many pairings of good or bad chemistry.

Most likely, I would use this feature to set "established" tag teams to neutral to avoid them having bad chemistry when they're supposed to be massively experienced and good together. Then, every once in a while, you have stuff like Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair, or Manami Toyota and Mima Shimoda.

[Self]

Most likely, I would use this feature to set "established" tag teams to neutral to avoid them having bad chemistry when they're supposed to be massively experienced and good together. Then, every once in a while, you have stuff like Ricky Steamboat and Ric Flair, or Manami Toyota and Mima Shimoda.

If a tag team begins the game with C experience or above (I think it's C) they won't get chemistry notes. No good. No bad. So that should save you some work. If you want an established tag team, set their experience high and you'll be safe.


EDIT: I'm looking forward to the Dirt Sheet to see just how important (or unimportant) chemistry actually is. Always struck me as a mountains-out-of-molehills argument.

[praguepride]

I do have to concur with Lindsey in that I think what has set so many people off from chemistry is that it does seem to go overboard often.

I remember several games where it seems like the whole Main event scene has chemistry with everybody else (good/bad).

Then compare it to how rare it is supposed to be in real life and I can see how people would want to edit it. If it was much rarer, I think it would be more special and less regarded as being a critical factor in a game. I imagine if good/bad chemistry was rarer there wouldn't be the need for this feature and thus this thread.

Time to hit the suggestion forums again...

[djthefunkchris]

I went to work thinking that this thread might not get the traffic that Adam thought it would at first. I come back to see it's exactly what he thought would happen (It's already at two pages, over the weekend I expect it to double).

My thoughts on Chemistry, and any other feature that gives the modders (and players) more controll over their mod/games, is it's a good thing.

The personal stuff that was added last time "Steroids, Alcohol, Law Problems, etc" were over-used in some mods, and I might not have figured it out right, but I felt that they kind of "Stacked", and if you over modded your mod, you have people like (in Real World) Batista, RVD, Sabu, etc.. Dieing off within' a couple of years, something that made a real world mod totally un-real (sorry to those modder's who felt so "Strongly" in your opinion of certain folks with hardships). The lesson I learned, and hopefully other's have learned, is that these stats, 0 to 100, does not mean 100 is "Definately a steriod User" as much as it is "Definately going to be a health issue". A 10 is definately a steriod user.... for example. A person that has been to jail a couple times, does not constitute a 100 for law problems... and depending on how serious their offence's were, it might not even be something you would rate over 10.

With Chemistry, my main fear is that people will go "Oh, I'm going to have to use this to it's fullest potential!" and start giving 100's of chemistry stats for everyone they think they know well enough to utilize it for. The option to "Not" use it gives me confidence that I will be able to correct this without any problem in any mod I play. I would be really pressed to play a mod that had like 100 of these set. I can understand a few, but I wouldn't over-use it.

Alot of these features that have been talked about, people keep bringing up historical mods utilizing them. In my opinion, less is going to be more with quite a bit of them. It will make them more special in the long run, and even more noticeable, especially to people that would "remember" these things. Of course I believe Historical mods have alot more information to work with.

I also dissagree with Derek_b about chemistry never being able to change.... that the only reason it appears that way is because they become more skilled. I know this is a true statement when talking about TEW (a game). However, It's only my opinion, but I believe people can have bad or good chemistry at different parts in their lives. I look around me, think of past and present and can think of plenty of personal experience's that proove this to me. In game however, it doesn't... Which is why I only consider using this feature in the most extreme case's.

[lazorbeak]

I always look at chemistry through EWR-tinted glasses, since it obviously didn't exist back in those days. Basically if EWR thought the match quality should be great and it wasn't, you've got bad chemistry. If it's somehow really good despite what would ordinarily be a clash in styles, that's good chemistry. So, take Jericho and RVD, guys that in EWR had brawling stats in the 50's and 60's and aerial stats in the 75-85 range. Based on EWR you'd think those two would have a great match, but their actual encounters were always lukewarm at best.

From that EWR example, I always thought there was a decent argument for chemistry for teams that should clash but worked out pretty well. Kane and X-Pac is an example of a team that never impressed in EWR, but in reality the two put on pretty good matches, while their post-breakup feud and everything X-Pac did afterwards was absolutely terrible. The Hardy Boyz are another team that were different enough stylistically and seemed to gel to the point that they looked like they might have been main event ready in 2001, but by spring of 2003 Jeff was out of the company and Matt was peaking as a midcard comedy heel act.

The problem with most people's examples is it's really hard to say when the top wrestlers in the world have great chemistry with someone, because they tend to have great matches anyway. I mean how do you prove Chris Jericho or Kurt Angle or Shawn Michaels had good chemistry with someone when they put on amazing matches with damn near everyone?

On the other hand, look at somebody like Lex Luger. Never immensely talented, but with the right opponent he could pull out a great match. When Luger's suddenly a snowflake machine there's a pretty good chance you're looking at some kind of positive chemistry.

[foolinc]

I went to work thinking that this thread might not get the traffic that Adam thought it would at first. I come back to see it's exactly what he thought would happen (It's already at two pages, over the weekend I expect it to double).

My thoughts on Chemistry, and any other feature that gives the modders (and players) more controll over their mod/games, is it's a good thing.

The personal stuff that was added last time "Steroids, Alcohol, Law Problems, etc" were over-used in some mods, and I might not have figured it out right, but I felt that they kind of "Stacked", and if you over modded your mod, you have people like (in Real World) Batista, RVD, Sabu, etc.. Dieing off within' a couple of years, something that made a real world mod totally un-real (sorry to those modder's who felt so "Strongly" in your opinion of certain folks with hardships). The lesson I learned, and hopefully other's have learned, is that these stats, 0 to 100, does not mean 100 is "Definately a steriod User" as much as it is "Definately going to be a health issue". A 10 is definately a steriod user.... for example. A person that has been to jail a couple times, does not constitute a 100 for law problems... and depending on how serious their offence's were, it might not even be something you would rate over 10.

With Chemistry, my main fear is that people will go "Oh, I'm going to have to use this to it's fullest potential!" and start giving 100's of chemistry stats for everyone they think they know well enough to utilize it for. The option to "Not" use it gives me confidence that I will be able to correct this without any problem in any mod I play. I would be really pressed to play a mod that had like 100 of these set. I can understand a few, but I wouldn't over-use it.

Alot of these features that have been talked about, people keep bringing up historical mods utilizing them. In my opinion, less is going to be more with quite a bit of them. It will make them more special in the long run, and even more noticeable, especially to people that would "remember" these things. Of course I believe Historical mods have alot more information to work with.

I also dissagree with Derek_b about chemistry never being able to change.... that the only reason it appears that way is because they become more skilled. I know this is a true statement when talking about TEW (a game). However, It's only my opinion, but I believe people can have bad or good chemistry at different parts in their lives. I look around me, think of past and present and can think of plenty of personal experience's that proove this to me. In game however, it doesn't... Which is why I only consider using this feature in the most extreme case's.

DOTT is in good hands then if you are the one taking it into TEW 2010. I agree completely that forced chemistry should be used in only extreme cases.

[James Casey]

Luger's not necessarily a great example. In his prime in WCW, he was motivated, athletic and charismatic: In other words, he could put on a decent match with almost anyone. Luger had The Look, which got him places, but he wouldn't have made it as far as he did without the talent to at least partly back it up.

[The Phenom]

Sure. Elizabeth added nothing - literally, as she rarely spoke and just stood at ringside - to Macho Man's interviews or matches. If they had chemistry then, by definition, he'd have been worse when she wasn't his manager, and that simply isn't true. She enhanced his storylines - occasionally - by giving him someone to be protective over, but anyone could have played that role (up to and including a convincing mannequin) with the same results. I'm hard pressed to think of a more useless manager in the entire history of pro wrestling that Elizabeth, so to have her having chemistry with anyone is utterly and completely bizarre.

If The NAO had good chemistry then, by definition, they'd have been significantly better in tag team matches when together than with other partners. I can't see any way you'd be able to make a convincing argument that the NAO had better quality matches than Gunn managed with any of his other ten billion tag team partners, because they were all pretty mediocre. Same with Road Dogg - having Gunn at his side didn't suddenly cause him to have fantastic matches, he wrestled at pretty much exactly the same quality he always did.

You can pretty much take the above argument word-for-word for the Dudleys too. Are they firing out significantly better matches when together than they could manage with other partners? And if so, given how abysmal their in-ring work is, exactly what levels of suckitude would they then be responsible for? As with NAO, you seem to be badly confusing popularity with ring work. Are the Dudleys more popular together than not? Yeah...but that has nothing to do with their ring work and all to do with their history and well known double team spots.

I think you just made a great case for why your definition of chemistry doesn't work. Because if the NAO don't have good chemistry then no team does.

You say the Dudley's do not have better ringwork with one another and their popularity is due to their well known spots and that is all true. But that does not describe the Outlaws at all. Billy had been a 1000 teams (and a 1000 more since) and Road Dogg was a nobody, but put together they went from floundering, to overnight sensations. They didn't have anything established as they were just starting out, and yet it just clicked. And their matches in their early run, with the Road Warriors and Foley and Funk, are easily the best work they had done prior or since.

The fact that these got over immediately when paired together, and could never get even close apart shows their chemistry together, because it certainty wasn't for a lack of trying by the WWF to get Billy over. It just so happened that they complimented each other in ways that can't be calculated.

[BuddyGarner]

Tag Team Experience not enough?


Not to use Larry Vessey no. Not to mark out when you've finally reunited Narato and Ota or Teddy Powell and Sammy Bach.

[Dell_Diddy]

Well, to stay on topic (LOL),...

As this could potentially be a very long and very dull discussion, please keep discussion about who would qualify for forced chemistry in real world mods in this thread - that way you won't clog up the journal discussion.

I would say:

Hawk & Animal - The Road Warriors.
Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson - The Rock 'n Roll Express
Shawn Michaels & Marty Janetty - The Rockers
Jeff Hardy & Matt Hardy - The Hardy Boyz
Ole Anderson & Arn Anderson
Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard

Reason: I could not see replacing one of them with another wrestler and the level of performance (as a tag team) constantly being anywhere close to being as high.

Note - Ole Andrerson/Arn Anderson and Arn Anderson/Tully Blanchard were two completely different styles of tag team. That's why my reasoning still applies.

[djthefunkchris]

DOTT is in good hands then if you are the one taking it into TEW 2010. I agree completely that forced chemistry should be used in only extreme cases.

I'm not planning on it. I'm hoping that something lights a fire under the one and only true master of the DOTT mod. I do know who I would hand pick for a team though (and two of them have diary's going).

I know the love of D. Boon's Ghost is Wrestling Spirit, and I'm hoping that the creativity/desire is there for the third installment of that game, soon. I don't know if it would matter/make him want to engage in a massive DOTT mod for TEW again, but I know it couldn't hurt, having an upgrade of his favorite GDS game.

If worse comes to worse though, there are some capable people, and people I would like to put in contact with each other (The original team, mixed in with some great picks of my own), that I think would do an incredible job.

I'm not as capable as any of them, by myself though. That's a fact I come to realise with DOTT 2008. I'll admit that to anyone. I believe I'm pretty good with game mechanics, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to make the world come alive like the other's are.

[James Casey]

Hawk & Animal - The Road Warriors.
Ricky Morton & Robert Gibson - The Rock 'n Roll Express
Shawn Michaels & Marty Janetty - The Rockers
Jeff Hardy & Matt Hardy - The Hardy Boyz
Ole Anderson & Arn Anderson
Arn Anderson & Tully Blanchard

The Rockers: I honestly think any two talented, good looking, charismatic wrestlers could have been in that spot. The Rockers were good, but if they'd been Marty and Eddie Guerrero, say, I don't see their matches being any worse. They had experience, but I wouldn't call it chemistry.

The Hardys: Absolutely.

Arn Anderson and anyone: Absolutely :D Arn was the consummate tag wrestler. Bobby Eaton, Larry Zbyszko, Ole Anderson, Tully Blanchard, Barry Windham...

Morton and Gibson would be an interesting case. They'd tagged together for so long by the time they hit the big time, a lot of it was experience. But really, I'd say they could have benefitted from chemistry as they did seem to be almost telepathic in the matches I've seen from them. Again, though, they did tend to do the same things week in, week out, so it may have been experience... I don't know on this one :rolleyes:

I can't imagine why Adam thought this might be tedious :p

[djthefunkchris]

I can't imagine why Adam thought this might be tedious :p

LOL. Yeah, seems like a cakewalk to me too;).

[Adam Ryland]

I think you just made a great case for why your definition of chemistry doesn't work. Because if the NAO don't have good chemistry then no team does.

You say the Dudley's do not have better ringwork with one another and their popularity is due to their well known spots and that is all true. But that does not describe the Outlaws at all. Billy had been a 1000 teams (and a 1000 more since) and Road Dogg was a nobody, but put together they went from floundering, to overnight sensations. They didn't have anything established as they were just starting out, and yet it just clicked. And their matches in their early run, with the Road Warriors and Foley and Funk, are easily the best work they had done prior or since.

The fact that these got over immediately when paired together, and could never get even close apart shows their chemistry together, because it certainty wasn't for a lack of trying by the WWF to get Billy over. It just so happened that they complimented each other in ways that can't be calculated.

I think you're confusing two entirely different things. There is "chemistry" (from real life) and "TEW chemistry" (in the game). I am not saying that the NAO didn't have "chemistry" - they clearly did, their characters meshed perfectly and was greater than the sum of its parts. What I am saying is that they didn't have "TEW chemistry" - there matches were not significantly better just because they were together.

Almost your entire post is about the former, which is therefore irrelevant as that's not what the feature is about - it doesn't matter whether they got over, that's got absolutely zero to do with this definition of chemistry. The part about LOD and Cactus\Funk I'm afraid we'll have to disagree on, as I thought the matches with the former were abysmal, and the latter were not significantly better than I'd have expected had they been teaming with anyone else of similar abilities.

In closing, my definition of chemistry from earlier is not meant to be the same as how you would describe chemistry in reality - that wasn't the intention. It's meant to describe how the feature for in-ring chemistry works in the game - and that is not wrong, as given that I wrote it I know exactly how it works.

[Gigas]

Re Billy Gunn, Adam may be right. He did have a good tag team with Chuck too. Although maybe that just means Billy had good chemistry with 2 people or was an Arn Anderson light.

Thing is, no one is using the wrong definition. Its just everyone interprets it differently.

BOT, You could say Edge and Christian had good tag team chemistry too. Especially if youre including teams like The Rockers. Or Miz and Morrison as someone mentioned earlier.

And with teams like the Road Warriors, did they have great chem or just great experience? Do the Demolition have great chemistry too? I think tag team chemistry will end up being the most abused and most debated.

Edit: I posted this before Adam went more in depth with TEW chemistry. Makes more sense why NAO wouldnt have good chemistry now in TEW terms.

[Dell_Diddy]

The Rockers: I honestly think any two talented, good looking, charismatic wrestlers could have been in that spot. The Rockers were good, but if they'd been Marty and Eddie Guerrero, say, I don't see their matches being any worse. They had experience, but I wouldn't call it chemistry.

I see how you wouldn't call it chemistry, based on how long they tagged together, but back when they were on the indy scene as The Midnight Rockers, they just 'clicked' almost immediately and worked so well together, I personally have to call it chemistry.

[djthefunkchris]

I see how you wouldn't call it chemistry, based on how long they tagged together, but back when they were on the indy scene as The Midnight Rockers, they just 'clicked' almost immediately and worked so well together, I personally have to call it chemistry.

You could go one step farther, and give them good chemistry, give HBK high potential and Marty Medium potential, and so on and so on, test and see if you get the results (which is compatible to their real life records) you want.

You can "Over-Mod" is my point. I know they were excellent, but I thought CM Punk and Jeff Hardy clicked great as a tag team too, and HHH for that matter (with Jeff). That click isn't enough for me to say they had "Great Chemistry" though. The match's were just well booked in my opinion.

Compare wrestling to a dance, and look at what James is bassically saying. IF two people are great dancer's, and you were to replace one with another great dancer, would it be that different? Would it make one of them less/more succesfull. Would HBK and anyone with compatible skill, be any worse, or vice versa?

I'm not dissagreeing or agreeing. I feel as though some people are wanting to utilize the feature into things that don't need it.. An "A" skilled tag team doesn't need the added benefit of Great Chemistry to be an "A" skilled tag team. Remember what Adam's "GAME" definition is. Are they considerably BETTER together, or perhaps one enhanced the other because of SKILL moreso then Chemistry?

[BurningHamster]

Alrighty, just read through six pages of confusion having come late to the party.

I'm more in the Ryland camp of not being crazy about forced chemistry as I can see a lot of mods which already have minor problems getting a hell of a lot worse with a bunch of very limiting chemistries being added.

If I work more on my 96 mod for the next version of TEW more than likely I will ignore this feature or only use it minimally as I am scratching my head about which workers had good chemistry and which workers simply performed well together because of a meshing of their skills without there being anything really special about it.

While I think Flair and Steamboat will be the point of reference for this discussion as I would hope almost everyone would agree they had what would be deemed good chemistry in TEW terms, who else fits the bill?

Tommy Dreamer/Raven - Chemistry or was this just an epic feud that made people care about the matches?

Mike Awesome/Masato Tanaka - Did these guys have chemistry or was it just a matter of their styes meshing. Tanaka was tough enough to take all of Awesome's spots without being so small that he couldn't credibly fire back on Awesome and dish it out. Their matches were good, but it seems like they were above average for Mike Awesome but perhaps not that far above average for Tanaka.

Super Crazy/Tajiri - yay or nay?

Rey Misterio Jr/Psicosis - These guys probably had some of their best matches against each other. I would lean towards yes on this? Anyone disagree?

Foley/Funk - Teammates, not so much. Opponents though? Maybe? Or is it a case of just two good workers who can brawl and that would be enough to account for their matches, particularly the more violent matches, being good?

See, these are all guys I am very familiar with yet am having trouble myself deciding on whether they have chemistry. This is kind of why I think I might prefer to have things left to chance.

[James Casey]

Foley/Funk - Teammates, not so much. Opponents though? Maybe? Or is it a case of just two good workers who can brawl and that would be enough to account for their matches, particularly the more violent matches, being good?


Partly friendship, and therefore willing to give to each other. Partly they were both bat-poo crazy and therefore they worked well in the deathmatch/hardcore environments where they had the bulk of their matches.

[King Chono]

Honestly after going through my D.o.t.T. game and looking at the workers, when I edit the mod for 2010 I'm going to be adding less than 10 non-neutral chemistries.

For good or great, Jumbo Tsuruta vs Genichiro Tenryu. While Jumbo was amazing(I'd say better than Flair or Steamboat), I don't feel he ever had better matches than his matches with Tenryu. I also don't feel Tenryu ever captured the same level of awesome that he did was Tenryu. Now Jumbo had great stats, and Tenryu's aren't bad by around 1987, but I felt all their singles matches were A* quality, which really set them apart from any of Jumbo's or Tenryu's other matches. I assume this is what Good Chemistry would be.

Another example I'd give is Misawa and Kawada in a neutral form(Kobashi too). They're matches were great no lie, but they weren't greater than their stats would allow(by the 90's.). They also weren't really that standing out from their work with other guys of equal ability(Taue, Hansen, Jumbo, Fuchi, etc..). Sure Dave Meltzer gave them a bunch of 5 Star ratings, but in all seriousness, almost every single important match on an AJPW card in the 90's got over 4 stars from Meltzer, he was just a mark for head drops. Another example of often mistaken chemistry are Hart vs Michaels, every indy worker vs every indy worker, and Angle vs Benoit.

Another example I would give great for is the Road Warriors. While some may not disagree, I've seen both of them work with different partners and the match quality they had was significantly worse. Even Hawk and Power Warrior(Kensuke Sasaki) were pretty meh in comparison to the Road Warriors when it came to feeding off each other. I don't think I have to mention Puke or Heidenreich.

Another one I think people would mistake for Chemistry is Dynamite Kid and Bret Hart, or Dynamite Kid and Tiger Mask. The matches these men put on against each other were amazing no doubt, but they weren't outside the limits of what these men could do given the stats they had. Neutral would be another one I'd give here.

Randy Savage I would give great chemistry with the Ultimate Warrior. While you may disagree, the only time Warrior has been even MODERATELY watchable was against Savage. Sure there's carrying involved, but I think Savage and Warrior had matches greater than Warrior's stats would lead you to believe he was capable of.

My example of bad chemistry(not awful) would be Randy Savage vs Ric Flair. Now on paper that sounds like a possible greatest match of all time, and their stats wouldn't argue either. But I felt these two always underperformed in all of their matches against each other.

For awful I'd pick Lex Luger & Davey Boy Smith as a tag team. Individually they're both kind of underrated as wrestlers. Also from what I've seen from all their other tag teams they're not that bad working tag matches. But these two together make me cringe inside and want to break my television forever.

I don't know what I'd give Terry Gordy and Michael Hayes, they had great matches and Terry Gordy is great in all tag teams. But Michael Hayes fooking sucks, and teaming with Gordy added a LOT for him and NOTHING for Gordy. Would that be Neutral? Good? Great?

But yeah, those are my takes on what good/great/bad/awful/neutral are.

[The Celt]

I'd say Tajiri and Crazy had a good chemistry that Heyman exploited by feud them. Their matches were significantly better than against those of similar opponents.

Similarly Awesome/Tanaka must have had a chemistry that FMW exploited and then ECW imported over. They just worked together so well, and FMW specifically put them in a ton of matches together to use that chemistry.

Raven and Dreamer i'm a little more sceptical. I'm not sure their matches were more than they were capable of. They were good matches for sure, but looking at their skills they were capable of getting the same match out of over opponents. I think it may have been just good booking.

[jbergey_2005]

The varying commentary teams out there are harder to call.... guys like Monsoon and Heenan were always awesome regardless of who they worked with, so it's hard to say if they had good chemistry. I would be tempted to give them a + but it's hard to say for sure because they were top notch on their own anyways and top notch together.

(



Completely agree with this. Heenan always stood out on the mic and Gorilla was great with Jesse Ventura as well.

You might think Heenan/Gorilla or Jesse/Gorilla had great chemistry but its more likely they were just that good.

[jbergey_2005]

Maria and Cena have great chemistry in more ways the one.

Id also say HBK brings out the best in Cena.

[MrCanada]

I think you're confusing two entirely different things. There is "chemistry" (from real life) and "TEW chemistry" (in the game). I am not saying that the NAO didn't have "chemistry" - they clearly did, their characters meshed perfectly and was greater than the sum of its parts. What I am saying is that they didn't have "TEW chemistry" - there matches were not significantly better just because they were together.

Almost your entire post is about the former, which is therefore irrelevant as that's not what the feature is about - it doesn't matter whether they got over, that's got absolutely zero to do with this definition of chemistry. The part about LOD and Cactus\Funk I'm afraid we'll have to disagree on, as I thought the matches with the former were abysmal, and the latter were not significantly better than I'd have expected had they been teaming with anyone else of similar abilities.

In closing, my definition of chemistry from earlier is not meant to be the same as how you would describe chemistry in reality - that wasn't the intention. It's meant to describe how the feature for in-ring chemistry works in the game - and that is not wrong, as given that I wrote it I know exactly how it works.

Well I think by TEW's definition it appears no one really had chemistry. I mean, in reality the argument can be made, and you've been making it, that not many people have chemistry bad or good. However if you play TEW for more then a year game time with a large enough roster, a lot of the workers will have at least one chemistry note about another worker (that is randomly generated). But apparently that doesnt ever really happen? The arguement could be made that Lynn/RVD simply meshed well because their styles/skills were matched very well. Same with Steamboat/Flair, or any body. If anything, I think a lot of these nonsensical arguments have made me believe more and more that Chemistry is kind of useless. A random thing added to change gameplay from game-to-game rather then being a well thought out thing.

To me, the way chemistry works in TEW08 is almost as bad as if workers just randomly died, not pending on age or drug use or whatever. Why not make that happen? It would change gameplay from game-to-game. Or what if just randomly throughout he game, stars quit companies for no reason? It would be terrific if your main eventer and title holder just up and left, imagine how difficult it would be to book around that!

I realize I'm just ranting, but it seems to me that no one really understands chemistry but Adam and a few others (not that there's anything wrong with that) and even if I believe I now understand it, I think its rubbish as I said above. Which granted is just my opinion. I still love TEW and will buy TEW 10 (I always will buy TEW) but sharing my opinion is just a dumb thing I do, regardless of how uninformed or stupid I sound! haha.

EDIT: but I'm off topic.

Good Chemistry as opponents:
RVD - Lynn
Steamboat - Flair
HBK - Cena
London - Yang
Punk - Joe
Danielson - Aries
Styles - Low-Ki

[Karl_Kitsch]

I think people are reading too much into Flair/Steamboat. Do not misread me, those are some of the finest wrestling matches of my lifetime and I can watch them any day of the week. BUT, I think people are overestimating the importance of chemistry in that series.

Ricky Steamboat was the best babyface of that time. He was good looking but not pretty, tough but not a bully, and he used martial arts but he was recognizably American. Ricky took a Hell of a beating, had excellent babyface offense, and sold like the dickens. Ricky Steamboat was the man when it came to being the soft spoken Billy Jack style face.

Ric Flair, well, Ric Flair is the Man. I grew up idolizing him. Even now, knowing too much about who he is off camera, I still revere the man. Ric Flair is everything I love about professional wrestling. He was the best heel in wrestling at the time, and maybe in my lifetime. His arrogance, intentional overselling, and logical heel offense made his matches believable.

When the best face of the time and the best heel of the time had hour long matches with each other across the South and all the way up to Chicago, the matches were good. Why wouldn't they be? You had the perfect match up of an arrogant heel and a humble face. These were two masters of their craft facing off. These amazing matches seem like a good argument for chemistry, but I disagree.

Ricky Steamboat had a amazing feud with Randy "Macho Man" Savage. This feud resulted in one of the best matches of all time. If Flair/Steamboat was great chemistry, surely this was too? OR is it a function of Ricky Steamboat simply being an amazing wrestler who had great matches with great opponents? If he had whipped out matches like the ones he had with Flair and Savage against the Barbarian, I would consider that great chemistry. Having an awesome match with a talented opponent while wrapped up in a super hot feud is a testament to the workers, not fate.

Look at Ric Flair. Flair had the best ten minute match of the 80's with Jerry Lawler. Was that chemistry or just artists at work? What about Flair and Brad Armstrong? Was that great chemistry or was it a veteran face carrying a good, but not great, babyface to the match of his life? Hell, Flair made Sting, who rarely had good matches, look like a million bucks. Better living through chemistry or a master doing what he does best?

Honestly, I think that chemistry being trotted out as the reason for great matches is like saying aliens built the pyramids.

[shipshirt]

I'm in the camp of not using this one too much, or at all. Honestly, the best part of this feature is to be able to set neutral chemistry. I agree with the posters that there was too much chemistry, both good and bad, in '08. I would like to see it be rare so when it happend it's special, not where everyone on the roster has four or five chemstry notes. One game, Flair had bad-awful chemistry with Dusty, Ron Garvin, Magnum, Ivan Koloff, Roddy Piper...pretty much my entire main event scene. To me, that's not bad chemistry, that just means he's not very good :P

I also agree that too many good pairings of wrestlers are being lumped into the "good chemistry" pile. RVD & Jerry Lynn, Cena & HBK, London & Yang...none of these are good chemistry. They're just good workers working with other good workers. They've all had just as good matches with other wrestlers as they've had with themselves.

[djthefunkchris]

If anything, I think a lot of these nonsensical arguments have made me believe more and more that Chemistry is kind of useless. A random thing added to change gameplay from game-to-game rather then being a well thought out thing.

"IF" you do really understand the concept/feature. You should note that one of the most important features of the game is that which I bolded....

I mean, come on... How much better can a feature be if not to make a games re-playability much better?

Let's go to the extreme, and say that we want a mod where forced chemistry is utilized 100%. IF this mod exists, then probably all the other features that effect worker's will be utilized greatly, if not fully.

Now, with all these features, to include the one variable that makes every game destined to be different, how will that mods' re-playability be?

With the features we now have, already..> The modder has the ability to almost guarantee a path for the mod to follow. If someone was to leave nothing to chance, the mod itself could end up with a re-playability of 1... as every game you play will end up the same (just with a different user character).

So, mainly what I think is being asked from players, to modders, is to please leave 99% of the game to chance, and effect only those things which are the most important to the mods "story". IF you have 2000 worker's, don't have 2000 chemistries, have around 20. I think that's a safe thing to say, anyways. This should make the playing the game several times more enjoyable (and less predictable).

The fear is more of a ton of forced chemistry, rather then the few that have been mentioned (Flair/Steamboat, Hardys, etc.).

[jbergey_2005]

Steamboat was the best of all time.

He sold better than anyone and his story telling was 2nd to none. Its hard to tell wrestling is fake watching his matches I tell you that.

[lazorbeak]

A random thing added to change gameplay from game-to-game rather then being a well thought out thing.


THE HORROR. THE HORROR.


To me, the way chemistry works in TEW08 is almost as bad as if workers just randomly died, not pending on age or drug use or whatever. Why not make that happen? It would change gameplay from game-to-game. Or what if just randomly throughout he game, stars quit companies for no reason? It would be terrific if your main eventer and title holder just up and left, imagine how difficult it would be to book around that!


Actually that first feature has already been announced.

[jbergey_2005]

I speculate the reason Adam doesnt want chemistry "overabused" is because it is really hard for bias people to make this decision. Do we really know if Steamboat/Flair had great chemistry? Im sure a lot of wrestlers have good/bad chemistry but it is so difficult to actually know. I think its hard to say who Steamboat had great chemistry with because he was great against everyone. Savage/Steamboat stole the show at WM3 but that match was scripted so can two wrestlers that script their matches have great chemistry? In fact Savage had all of his matches planned out move for move prior to the match as quoted from different sources.

When the computer decides this for us we dont have to make that decision which in the long run will make things much easier.

I do like the fact that chemistry can be set to neutral. In the current format the only thing that really bothers me is to see two great workers with multi dimensional skills getting the bad chemistry note. I just cant see it happening.

About the only workers I can see guys like Steamboat/HBK having bad chemistry with is huge workers that dont sell or inexperienced workers that cant keep up.

[Vladamire Dracos]

Actually that first feature has already been announced.

This is true. #10: Random Deaths, from the Developer's Journal. Also included is "Kenny Deaths" Kenny from South Park style deaths. I personally won't be using the latter with real world mods I'm playing, and I'll be trying out the former before starting a serious game with it active. Some randomness is fine, even desired, but too much of anything is bad.

[djthefunkchris]

It's alot of subjectiveness trying to be objective.

Don't get me wrong. I am VERY VERY happy that this has been an included feature. I will USE it.

Jbergey, I think mostly what has been said is using the neutral chemistry with alot of the tag teams, so that they don't get "Bad" chemistry. This is something that would work with people your not sure of, I believe...

Say your making a mod, and you know that these 10 tag teams did great, and they worked well together as a team. You might not think they outperformed their skills, but you don't want them to underperform either. So you can throw it in as neutral chemistry. This insure's (for example) that Steamboat and Flair don't smell up the place, but doesn't insure that their match's are going to be huge without compelling storylines to back them with.

Where-as giving people "Good" chemistry will guarrentee "BETTER" match's then they would normally do with their own skillset.

I think the majority are actually getting this feature. There are some up in the air posts, but for the most part I think everyone is thinking more of the Neutral position, then giving people bad or good chemistry (At least at this point).

[jbergey_2005]

Jbergey, I think mostly what has been said is using the neutral chemistry with alot of the tag teams, so that they don't get "Bad" chemistry. This is something that would work with people your not sure of, I believe...



DOTT is in good hands with you in command:) If you take on such a thing again I can help out in some way. I'm not really familiar with other federations other than the WWF and some of the wrestlers that went through the WWF at the time but I could help out with some part of it if you needed additional help.

[MrCanada]

"IF" you do really understand the concept/feature. You should note that one of the most important features of the game is that which I bolded....

I personally dont find that very important. I use my imagination to make games different. I use different stars, different styles of promotions, ext to "change the game play". Its almost as if random chemistry has been added simply to help urge those along who have no sense of invention or imagination to begin with. Is it really a "sky is falling" moment in peoples lives that some people enjoy booking Edd Stone vs. Mainstream Hernandez? And there must be chemistry in the game to handicap their ability to book such a match? Thats the thing about the current system I think most people have issue with. I cant even count the number of games where I've build up a feud only to have it flop because of chemistry, and then I simply quit the game because I get so angry about it.

The people argueing so much for the current system and calling the new ability to assign chemistry just really come off as a little snobbish to me. "I love the system and the challenge it poses when two workers must avoid working with each other at all costs out of the blue. It allows me to diversify my game playing experiance." Or... you could just do that yourself.

[djthefunkchris]

I personally dont find that very important. I use my imagination to make games different. I use different stars, different styles of promotions, ext to "change the game play". Its almost as if random chemistry has been added simply to help urge those along who have no sense of invention or imagination to begin with. Is it really a "sky is falling" moment in peoples lives that some people enjoy booking Edd Stone vs. Mainstream Hernandez? And there must be chemistry in the game to handicap their ability to book such a match? Thats the thing about the current system I think most people have issue with. I cant even count the number of games where I've build up a feud only to have it flop because of chemistry, and then I simply quit the game because I get so angry about it.

The people argueing so much for the current system and calling the new ability to assign chemistry just really come off as a little snobbish to me. "I love the system and the challenge it poses when two workers must avoid working with each other at all costs out of the blue. It allows me to diversify my game playing experiance." Or... you could just do that yourself.

Using this same logic, could you not just forget the game entirely, and just think it up yourself? I mean, you could... You could definately do what your talking about.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand where your coming from. I personally think that people are being a bit too worried about it that don't want the feature, as they can just bassically erase any unwanted chemistry from the database themselves (and easier with the multiple delete). So I do think people are over-reacting in that sense. I do think I get what your saying.

I just think your also leaning a little too far the other direction, perhaps to balance the discussion out a little? If people weren't so concerned, maybe you would be posting differently? I don't know, it's a nice little feature, and I've always been impressed with it, from the standpoint I already posted (Re-playability).

[MrCanada]

Using this same logic, could you not just forget the game entirely, and just think it up yourself? I mean, you could... You could definately do what your talking about.

Don't get me wrong, I do understand where your coming from. I personally think that people are being a bit too worried about it that don't want the feature, as they can just bassically erase any unwanted chemistry from the database themselves (and easier with the multiple delete). So I do think people are over-reacting in that sense. I do think I get what your saying.

I just think your also leaning a little too far the other direction, perhaps to balance the discussion out a little? If people weren't so concerned, maybe you would be posting differently? I don't know, it's a nice little feature, and I've always been impressed with it, from the standpoint I already posted (Re-playability).

I'll accept that. Arguments/debates are like a sailboat, if you think its leaning to far one way, you lean to far the other to balance it out. I think both sides (from me to Adam) are being a bit extreme for such a simple feature. In the end, as you said, it doesnt really matter. It is in the game, Adam isnt going to pull it from the game (for those sayings its a terrible idea). And since its in the game, those saying why its "good" have kind of already won since its in the game.

Those who dont want it, dont use, those who do, do. I think this is actually become more of an ideological debate between conservatives and liberals, lol. If you think about it. Its one side going "I like the game this way, and playing it any other way would be outrageous" and you have the other side going "we should just be more open and accepting of all (except conservatives) while having gays ruining marriages in the streets!" lol.

[lazorbeak]

I personally dont find that very important. I use my imagination to make games different. I use different stars, different styles of promotions, ext to "change the game play". Its almost as if random chemistry has been added simply to help urge those along who have no sense of invention or imagination to begin with. Is it really a "sky is falling" moment in peoples lives that some people enjoy booking Edd Stone vs. Mainstream Hernandez? And there must be chemistry in the game to handicap their ability to book such a match? Thats the thing about the current system I think most people have issue with. I cant even count the number of games where I've build up a feud only to have it flop because of chemistry, and then I simply quit the game because I get so angry about it.

The people argueing so much for the current system and calling the new ability to assign chemistry just really come off as a little snobbish to me. "I love the system and the challenge it poses when two workers must avoid working with each other at all costs out of the blue. It allows me to diversify my game playing experiance." Or... you could just do that yourself.

Seriously I love how you are arguing every game having subtle differences is a BAD thing because you would like to reserve the right to control the changes yourself.

Again, as an EWR vet, I figured out almost instantly "by jove if I book this AJ Styles fellow in a match with someone else who is good they will have a fantastic match every week!" And then patted myself on the back as my promotion gained in popularity every month. I was the greatest booker ever!

In a game that gives us access to view every nearly every ability in the game, chemistry is one of the only things you can't directly control (up to this point). I just try to imagine myself going "ugh I will just start a new save" in the event that AJ Styles and Low Ki didn't result in a 100% Match Quality EVERY TIME.

Besides, I'm sure it's been said to you before, but if you want to book Edd Stone vs. Mainstream Hernandez, DO IT. So you won't get a perfect grade: so what? Two good wrestlers with poor chemistry aren't going to be booed out of the building.

[crayon]

Genius idea for Ryland to announce this feature on the Friday, so there's a whole weekend for people to get it out of their system :)

Anyhow, just to totally pimp myself, I've made a suggestion about tweaking the forced chemistry feature (http://www.greydogsoftware.com/forum/showthread.php?t=65009) (over in the Suggestion forums, oddly enough), and I'll ask anyone to go over there and drop a comment on it if you feel strongly for or against it. You never know, it may or may not make a difference.

[alden]

A few people have brought up how flair and steamboat should have good chem.......can they explain why they think they would have good chem? I gave my view of how they would not have good chem.........i am very curious as how adam has explained chem how people would say they would have good chem together.

[djthefunkchris]

A few people have brought up how flair and steamboat should have good chem.......can they explain why they think they would have good chem? I gave my view of how they would not have good chem.........i am very curious as how adam has explained chem how people would say they would have good chem together.

I think it's mostly a "Neutral" chemistry at worst for them, They definately shouldn't have a chance to have negative chemistry.

They were just on top of thier game, both complimented the other, in a way that was just not the same in other match's they had. As was said, both could sell a lemon and make it look like a diamond. So they complimented and enhanced each other tremendously. To be honest, I think they could still put on a match that would would impress the mass's. Matter of fact, I believe they could probably put on a better match between themselves right now, this year, then they could with anyone else. SO I guess I do think they should have good chemistry, not just neutral.

Could Jericho or someone else take one of their places? Probably, after many practice's and rehersals. However, they did it back then, when there wasn't alot of chance's for rehersals and such. They did it "winging" it, over and over throughout the whole country.

Hope that answer's your question.

[ampulator]

Ric Flair had always liked working with Ricky Steamboat and Sting. After Sting, Ricky Steamboat is the second name you think about when you mention "Ric Flair's greatest opponents".

One issue is... Ric Flair ALWAYS brought his best, or near-best, whenever he wrestled those two. It's hard to say it's good chemistry, but it's definitely true that he had no bad chemistry with either one.

[Moe Hunter]

Maria and Cena have great chemistry in more ways the one.

Id also say HBK brings out the best in Cena.

If their WM match is "the best" of Cena, which it should be since it's a Mania match against Michaels, then truly he really isn't much good. How long did he sell all that working on his leg before he started *leaping* about the ring?

And Maria's best work IMO was at the Trial of Bischoff, with Foley and Vince.

[jbergey_2005]

If their WM match is "the best" of Cena, which it should be since it's a Mania match against Michaels, then truly he really isn't much good. How long did he sell all that working on his leg before he started *leaping* about the ring?

And Maria's best work IMO was at the Trial of Bischoff, with Foley and Vince.

You must have missed the hour long HBK vs Cena match on RAW? I might have forgotten the WM match. If it was bad than obviously they dont have good chemistry. I just think back to that 1 hour RAW match and it was one of the few times they just let Cena wrestle and he looked good.

Cena/Maria was meant more so as a joke as Cena is always messing around with her.

[Genadi]

HBK brings out the best in anyone, even those who hate him.

[mjdgoldeneye]

Here's a question:

Does it seem viable to anyone to give positive chemistry to 2 workers (as a team, opponents, etc.) that have very different styles or sizes that perform well in the given case simply to cancel out the negative impact that their differing styles/sizes/stats would have?

For example, there's plenty of tiny guy/big guy sorts of teams where one relies on aerial stuff and the other relies on brawling. Would using chemistry at all balance the intrinsic penalties for mismatching guys like that?

Also, I have to say Shelton Benjamin and Shawn Michaels should have positive chemistry. Now, I know they're both capable of putting on a good match on their own, but I've seen them 1-on-1 twice and both matches were exceptional in my opinion.

[Rocland]

You must have missed the hour long HBK vs Cena match on RAW? I might have forgotten the WM match. If it was bad than obviously they dont have good chemistry. I just think back to that 1 hour RAW match and it was one of the few times they just let Cena wrestle and he looked good.

Cena/Maria was meant more so as a joke as Cena is always messing around with her.

Oh wow, I completely forgot about that match! I need to watch that Cena/HBK from raw.. now!

[jbergey_2005]

Oh wow, I completely forgot about that match! I need to watch that Cena/HBK from raw.. now!

I wish I still had it.

[ampulator]

Let's not get into a John Cena discussion. First off, he's the "symptom" at worst, and not the "problem". Second, he has nothing to do with this thread.

As for chemistries go, John Cena doesn't have a lot of chemistry with any of the current main eventers in WWE. Not that it's bad chemistry, but just neutral chemistry.

Against Randy Orton? Neutral Chemistry. Against Triple H? Neutral Chemistry. Against Shawn Michaels? Neutral Chemistry. He has wrestled each many, many, many times, and in many kinds of matches. Just no spark. Nothing.

Ironically, he has pretty good tag chemistry with Randy Orton, of all things. That's sad and funny at the same time. I find their tag matches together are way more entertaining than their matches against each other.

[alden]

I think i have found two people that would have good tag chemistry at least......the steiners......alone they are tarrible.....even when they were in there prime they were tarrible......together the steiner brothers were a dominating tag team.......i would say they have great chemistry together...

[jbergey_2005]

Let's not get into a John Cena discussion. First off, he's the "symptom" at worst, and not the "problem". Second, he has nothing to do with this thread.

As for chemistries go, John Cena doesn't have a lot of chemistry with any of the current main eventers in WWE. Not that it's bad chemistry, but just neutral chemistry.

Against Randy Orton? Neutral Chemistry. Against Triple H? Neutral Chemistry. Against Shawn Michaels? Neutral Chemistry. He has wrestled each many, many, many times, and in many kinds of matches. Just no spark. Nothing.

Ironically, he has pretty good tag chemistry with Randy Orton, of all things. That's sad and funny at the same time. I find their tag matches together are way more entertaining than their matches against each other.

Why would you start your post with "lets not get into a John Cena discussion" then follow it with 4 paragraphs about Cena?

Anyway, since the topic is real world chemistry which is what was being discussed I dont understand why he "has nothing to do with the thread."

[Genadi]

I think i have found two people that would have good tag chemistry at least......the steiners......alone they are tarrible....

I disagree on that, Steiner may have sucked to alot of smart fans but he was more over solo then his years with Rick. Suck in ring or not (I think that's subjective also as there are a bunch matches from WCW I enjoyed of his) he saw more success as a singles star. I'm not sure there are too many teams I would consider, DerekB raised a good point with the Hardy Boyz though imo.

I don't think even Triple H and Goldberg deserve bad chemistry, even taking into account their dissapointing series of matches. If you factor in the WWE product at the time, Hunters (and to an extent Goldbergs) physical condition, personalities, momentum and a few other things the matches didn't have much chance of being any better.

[Gigas]

The mention of Goldberg reminds me of Lesnar/Goldberg. Although that match had so many external factors to just chalk it up to bad chemistry.

And I think Cena has above average chemistry with Orton.


And on the topic, how many different levels of chemistry are there on the positive and negative end? (pretty good, excellent, etc)

[thatoneguy]

On positive, there's Good and Great. On negative, there's Bad and Awful.

[Karl_Kitsch]

When I think of bad chemistry, the first thing I think of is Jericho and Cena. I love Jericho, I think he is a fantastic worker. Cena is very carryable, having had good matches with JBL right before his feud with Jericho. Hell, Cena had a good set of matches with Umaga. Thing is, for reasons no one has ever explained to me, Cena and Jericho put on truly terrible matches together. I know Jericho can carry guys and that Cena can be carried, but together it is a total trainwreck. That, to me, is a perfect example of bad chemistry.

[Zakarl]

I'd give good chemistry to Warrior/Rude, Rude/Steamboat & Savage/Page for sure:

Warrior was simply taken up to a whole other level when he wrestled with Rude.

Rude & Steamboat were two great workers having matches that were even better.

Savage/Page is a case of one great worker and one really good worker putting on fantastic matches and meshing together amazingly.

I support tag chemistry as well: the Outlaws were pretty much nothing individually but together it just worked. Not necessarily giving them matches significantly better than with other partners, but in terms of playing off each other it was vastly superior. There's a reason why neither of them could ever again get anywhere close to as over as they were back then.

Also: I'd put Cena/Orton down as having bad opponent chemistry. Every one of their matches together has been below even their usual standards.

[Genadi]

Also: I'd put Cena/Orton down as having bad opponent chemistry.


As for chemistries go, John Cena doesn't have a lot of chemistry with any of the current main eventers in WWE. Not that it's bad chemistry, but just neutral chemistry.
Against Randy Orton? Neutral Chemistry.


And I think Cena has above average chemistry with Orton.

This is another reason I don't want to add them to my mods, talk about subjective. :p

[Phil Parent]

This is another reason I don't want to add them to my mods, talk about subjective. :p

Right. Personally I'm not touching this with a ten feet pole and I'm happy it can be turned off.

[ampulator]

Thank you for pointing that. There's no chance in hell Randy Orton vs John Cena have good chemistry. Their matches against each other are borefests. It's almost the same match everytime. And not the same GOOD match. Just the same boring match.

[Jaysin]

As opponents?
Dean Malenko vs Ultimo Dragon- Sure, these two could have a good match with anyone but anytime these two set foot in a ring together it was amazing.

Jericho vs Mysterio- Even in Rey's current "WWE sucktitude" mode, him and Jericho have great matches.

I had thought of more while reading through the thread, but I can't seem to remember them at the moment

[Vladamire Dracos]

I disagree on that, Steiner may have sucked to alot of smart fans but he was more over solo then his years with Rick. Suck in ring or not (I think that's subjective also as there are a bunch matches from WCW I enjoyed of his) he saw more success as a singles star. I'm not sure there are too many teams I would consider, DerekB raised a good point with the Hardy Boyz though imo.

Popularity doesn't matter for TEW Chemistry, just quality of ring work. Rick and Scott, as a team, put on better matches than they ever did alone or with other teammates. They exceeded the sum of their parts, so to say.

[Genadi]

Popularity doesn't matter for TEW Chemistry, just quality of ring work. Rick and Scott, as a team, put on better matches than they ever did alone or with other teammates. They exceeded the sum of their parts, so to say.

I think you're missing my point. I'm not saying they should or shouldn't have team chemistry. I said I didn't think Scott Steiner sucked alone, again it's all subjective.

[Moe Hunter]

You must have missed the hour long HBK vs Cena match on RAW? I might have forgotten the WM match. If it was bad than obviously they dont have good chemistry. I just think back to that 1 hour RAW match and it was one of the few times they just let Cena wrestle and he looked good.

Cena/Maria was meant more so as a joke as Cena is always messing around with her.

I remember the Raw match that they did to apologise for stinking up Mania. It was a good match, sure. But it doesn't constitute good chemistry, especially when you take into account their other matches.

Slightly on the same note, did anyone else think that HBK vs HHH vs Cena match recently was just sloppy as hell? Especially toward the end.

[itsbigt]

I am not sure this belongs in this thread, but what about guys like the dudleys who are great tag team, but are terrible single wrestlers.

Or what about single wrestlers like Billy Gunn, who never was that good as a single wrestler but was good as a tag wrestler.

I guess my question is will chemistry but a one on one setting, wrestler A & B have good chemistry like the dudleys. Or will there be an option for wrestler A has a sightly above average chance of producing good chemistry with tag partners like Billy Gunn

[James Casey]

However, they did it back then, when there wasn't alot of chance's for rehersals and such. They did it "winging" it, over and over throughout the whole country.


Re: Flair and Steamboat - They had ample opportunity to practise their matches, not least because they'd had a very good feud a few years before in the Mid-Atlantic territory. If memory serves, Flair says in his book that Steamboat was chosen as his opponent in the feud precisely because Flair felt so comfortable working with him.

[alden]

ok here is a question for the flair vs steamboat feud..........was it any better then the flair vs rhodes feud? or the flair vs magnam feud or the flair vs race feud or the flair vs funk feud or the.......you get my point......i think you could have put anyone in the ring with flair and it would have been gold. Steamboat was just the guy picked because he had some talent.......i don't think there matches were any better then any feud flair had at the time.

[djthefunkchris]

Re: Flair and Steamboat - They had ample opportunity to practise their matches, not least because they'd had a very good feud a few years before in the Mid-Atlantic territory. If memory serves, Flair says in his book that Steamboat was chosen as his opponent in the feud precisely because Flair felt so comfortable working with him.

I believe they had over 100's of match's, all together. I can't remember off the top of my head what Flair said during the Hall of Fame speach, but it was a huge number.

I'm talking from day one though. I don't think I've ever seen a bad match between them, although there is no way I can even come close to saying I seen all thier match's.

[Tempest Kane]

When i think of this addition i just think of Russo sat in the creative meeting at TNA saying "Yeah of course thats it! Abyss has wonderful chemistry with Matt Morgan, that will make an awesome fued, book it!!!"

Basicaly speaking... it was one of the worst fueds for both of them, but since chemistry is 100% subjective to opinion im sure their are actualy people who will put that into a mod as a great chemistry...

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

The thing about chemistry is its supposed to be a magical thing, its supposed to show up were you dont expect it, it feels like it should be intended to be random at all times and used sparingly, and the truth is i think almost every mod for 2010 will have default chemistrys for just about everyone in the database's as people will feel the need to add them, and then what are you left with? Mods that play the same way every time constantly... can we turn this off? most likely... but dosnt anyone else think this takes something away from the overall TEW expirance most people are going to get?

Are we loseing something very core to what the game is about? I asked myself this same thing when they announced the ability to turn off the match repeat penaltys...

[TeemuFoundation]

Are we loseing something very core to what the game is about?
People having fun while playing? No, I don't think so.

[justtxyank]

ok here is a question for the flair vs steamboat feud..........was it any better then the flair vs rhodes feud? or the flair vs magnam feud or the flair vs race feud or the flair vs funk feud or the.......you get my point......i think you could have put anyone in the ring with flair and it would have been gold. Steamboat was just the guy picked because he had some talent.......i don't think there matches were any better then any feud flair had at the time.

Yes, it was better. Go look at the matches. Flair/Funk matches were good, and Flair/Dusty were good, but Flair vs Steamboat is legendary because of the amazing quality.

[Hive]

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

Splendid idea. Maybe that comitee should also decide who gets to play the game and who doesn't? :rolleyes:

[ampulator]

I remember the Raw match that they did to apologise for stinking up Mania. It was a good match, sure. But it doesn't constitute good chemistry, especially when you take into account their other matches.

Slightly on the same note, did anyone else think that HBK vs HHH vs Cena match recently was just sloppy as hell? Especially toward the end.
Like it has been said before.. even with good chemistry, if they meet the requirements for a good match... it will still stink.

[jbergey_2005]

Splendid idea. Maybe that comitee should also decide who gets to play the game and who doesn't? :rolleyes:

Well played sir!:)

I find it funny that out of all the things the stats could be messed up, people are worrying so much about something not near as important.

IMO data matching up close to CV is much more important that trying to figure out if Orton/HHH have poor, neutral or great chemistry which will likely only turn a B match into a B- or B+ match at best.

[jbergey_2005]

So with turning this feature off does it mean there is no chemistry in the game or does it mean it will be like it is now?

I may or may not use the forced chemistry depending on the data I use but if I dont like the data I still want chemistry to play a part like it does now(where everyone starts out neutral and the game tells you good/bad chemistry)

Anyone know the answer on this?

[TeemuFoundation]

Splendid idea. Maybe that comitee should also decide who gets to play the game and who doesn't? :rolleyes:
Very wel played, indeed. This whole debate has turned so ridicilous it's unbelieavable. How about we all just allow the paying customers to play the game as they see fit?

I understand a lot of the points made against this feature and it seems that there is a lot confusion as to what chemistry actually is. But even so, it has already been said that it's easy to mass delete all chemistry notes in the editor before you even start the game, if you were to play a mod made by someone else. So, honestly I don't see the big deal with the addition of this fearure. And before someone points out that I've been very vocal about wanting this feature to be added, I will agree, I have. But I wanted forced chemistry to be added to the game in such fashion that the people, who don't want it, can easily just turn them off. And with the ability to mass delete chemistries that's exactly how it is going to be in the next TEW. If this feature was not added to the game, the minority who wants to be able to edit chemistry, would be disappointed and the majority would be uneffected. But now that we are able to add chemistries in the game if we so choose, the minority will be happier with the game, have more fun with the game, whereas the majority can still enjoy the game just like they have in the past. It's only an improvement.

Now, some of you brought up diaries becoming boring now, but I don't see that being so, either. I'm not an avid reader of diaries, but if I get interested in a diary, it's because of a talented writer creating interesting storylines and writing good matches. Anybody can book Sting and Shawn Michaels to a feud and it even set them to have great chemistry and it would draw money, no doubt, but it's up the writer to really create an interesting storyline to back up the match. Is it going to be a drawn-out, deep, interesting and captivating angle leading to the match or rather just a "I am not amused by you, we shall fight at the next pay-per-view event until the bitter end"?

All of you people complaining about us now being able to edit chemistries really come off as elitists who think they now better than us how we're supposed to play the game. Videogames are supposed to be about having a good time, having fun. Don't take it so seriously, guys. I'm going to have more fun playing a historical mod where Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are not going to have awful chemistry as opponents, whereas you will probably have more fun when that exact thing happens. And guess what? Now we can all play the game exactly the way we want. How is that anything but a win-win situation?

And it's not like we want to add great chemistry to every wrestling duo that we have ever seen put on a good match, no, most of us just want to block the possibility of bad chemistry between two workers we know don't have bad chemistry. I see it like this: Let's say you were to play a historical mod based in 1994 and you were to play as the WWF. To me, the point of playing a historical mod is to see what would have happened if I were in charge of the company at that given time and see what I could have done differently. And to do that, I need to have the roster of people the promotion had at the time and I feel that I also need to have the set of good and bad chemistries the roster had at the time. It doesn't mean that I want to recreate history exactly the way it happened (Although, therr would be nothing wrong with that, either) it just means that if I want Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart to headline a PPV in a 2/3 Falls match, I could do that without fearing that they don't click, since they didn't they didn't have chemistry issues in real life, either. Well, not in the ring, anyway.

Just because I can now block certain bad chemistry combinations from happening doesn't mean that there aren't hundreds of different routes I can go with my promotion. Even if the feud really happened between Bret and Shawn, it doesn't mean that I can't book it differently. And that's just one match, people. There is still a whole lot to book in a promotion to run it succesfully.

I applaud Adam for listening to his fanbase and adding this feature that is very important to the people that want it and has no impact on the people that don't want it. Even if he himself is not that enhusiastic about it. It means that he listens to his fans and that's why he is so awesome.

[PeterHilton]

So with turning this feature off does it mean there is no chemistry in the game or does it mean it will be like it is now?

I may or may not use the forced chemistry depending on the data I use but if I dont like the data I still want chemistry to play a part like it does now(where everyone starts out neutral and the game tells you good/bad chemistry)

Anyone know the answer on this?

I don't think it's "turned off"

The way Adam has talked about it, the chemistry file will be a set of the data like 'relationships.' So if you have nothing in that file for the database you use, chemistry will work as before

(hmmm..if that is how it work, I think that also means that people who use this feature will still have to deal partially with whatever chemistry the game throws at them)

[The Chosen One]

Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar / Chris Benoit.

Cena & Umaga / Orton

Shawn Michaels & HHH

Foley & Undertaker

CM Punk & Morrison

[lazorbeak]

And it's not like we want to add great chemistry to every wrestling duo that we have ever seen put on a good match, no, most of us just want to block the possibility of bad chemistry between two workers we know don't have bad chemistry. I see it like this: Let's say you were to play a historical mod based in 1994 and you were to play as the WWF. To me, the point of playing a historical mod is to see what would have happened if I were in charge of the company at that given time and see what I could have done differently. And to do that, I need to have the roster of people the promotion had at the time and I feel that I also need to have the set of good and bad chemistries the roster had at the time. It doesn't mean that I want to recreate history exactly the way it happened (Although, therr would be nothing wrong with that, either) it just means that if I want Shawn Michaels and Bret Hart to headline a PPV in a 2/3 Falls match, I could do that without fearing that they don't click, since they didn't they didn't have chemistry issues in real life, either. Well, not in the ring, anyway.

I don't have any problem with people playing how they want, but I can't wrap my brain around how much it bothers some that bad chemistry might occur, thereby derailing all their plans forever. If you're playing a WWF mod, you can look at every piece of data (remember in real life bookers can only see the match results and raw data for stuff like drawing power, they can't just filter search their way to find their best guys) and see that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are far and away your best wrestlers. If you control chemistry as well, you are guaranteed amazing match quality results every time. I guess that is a re-assurance to some, but it smells an awful lot like eliminating one of the few challenges in the game to me. It also seems like a fundamental lack of understanding of what a mod is. It's not meant to be an exact replica of the real world in every way, so the argument "but I know these two don't have chemistry in RL" is completely inconsequential. It's a GAME version, a starting point that is not meant to be a carbon copy of the real world in every way.

To make an outlandish slippery slope argument, how far away are we from a situation where you can just tell the game the grades you think you should have gotten and let it just become a $35 tip calculator? "No way, game, I know for a FACT that Jericho vs. Punk should get an A, so I'm changing that B you gave them." But I'm sure a minority of players would looooove this feature and no one would have the right to deny them their fun, right?

[Franchise22]

im not a fan of this. the unknown factor of good or bad chemistry is a mjor part of gameplay. booking, hirings, firings, can all be tied to chemistry. This to me is not playing the game as much as writing a story now. i guess this is good for diaries, but you are no longer really "playing" the game. yes i know you dont have to use it, but i still dont think it should be in imo.

[Tempest Kane]

In regards to the comitee concept, would it hurt to have guy's like DerekB put together a list of people who should and shouldnt have chemistry as a sticky for other mod makers who might otherwise make common mistakes? I dont think i at any point suggested we should vote on who should or shouldnt be able to play the game so im not sure why that got thrown into the mix , and as for TeemuFoundation's implication that some how by my suggestion mean's i'am elitist... if im trying to suggest a thread to help inform people about the rights and wrongs how is that in any way elitist? ...

Bandwagon, Check.
Fanbois, Check.
FLAME ON!

[TeemuFoundation]

I don't have any problem with people playing how they want, but I can't wrap my brain around how much it bothers some that bad chemistry might occur, thereby derailing all their plans forever. If you're playing a WWF mod, you can look at every piece of data (remember in real life bookers can only see the match results and raw data for stuff like drawing power, they can't just filter search their way to find their best guys) and see that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are far and away your best wrestlers. If you control chemistry as well, you are guaranteed amazing match quality results every time. I guess that is a re-assurance to some, but it smells an awful lot like eliminating one of the few challenges in the game to me. It also seems like a fundamental lack of understanding of what a mod is. It's not meant to be an exact replica of the real world in every way, so the argument "but I know these two don't have chemistry in RL" is completely inconsequential. It's a GAME version, a starting point that is not meant to be a carbon copy of the real world in every way.

You see that's where you and I are just different: I don't want it to feel like a game version of the year 1992 in wrestling, I want to feel as realistic as possible. And every time I booked two workers, who worked well together in reality, together and the game told me that they didn't click, it totally kills the suspense of disbelief for me and reminds me that it's just a mod. I understand what you mean and respect your views, no problem, but the thing is that the ways we view the game the game are just different. Honestly, to me it's not about the challenge, it never has been. I just want to push people I would have wanted to see pushed at the time, but never were, create stories and interesting angles between two workers I feel would have had great matches in real life.. That kind of stuff. And one of the things I love when playing is to come up with motivations for two workers to feud, instead of just looking up two workers with good stats and pitting them up against each other in the ring.
To make an outlandish slippery slope argument, how far away are we from a situation where you can just tell the game the grades you think you should have gotten and let it just become a $35 tip calculator? "No way, game, I know for a FACT that Jericho vs. Punk should get an A, so I'm changing that B you gave them." But I'm sure a minority of players would looooove this feature and no one would have the right to deny them their fun, right?
I have to disagree. While I do see your point and where you're going with it, that's not how I see people wanting to play the game. The point is to see "what would have happened if.." and if the grade is a "B" then the answer to the question is that a "B" would have happened. But I stand behind everything I've said before that if people really wanted to be somehow able to change the match grades, fine, I would not have a problem with that, since I wouldn't have to do that myself. But I honestly don't feel that anyone at all would want to do that and that's nothing like being able to overwrite a few bad chemistry combinations.

[PeterHilton]

Kurt Angle & Brock Lesnar / Chris Benoit.

Cena & Umaga / Orton

Shawn Michaels & HHH

Foley & Undertaker

CM Punk & Morrison

I honestly don't think any of those (outside of maybe Cena & Umaga/Orton) are example of chemistry in TEW terms.

[TeemuFoundation]

In regards to the comitee concept, would it hurt to have guy's like DerekB put together a list of people who should and shouldnt have chemistry as a sticky for other mod makers who might otherwise make common mistakes? I dont think i at any point suggested we should vote on who should or shouldnt be able to play the game so im not sure why that got thrown into the mix , and as for TeemuFoundation's implication that some how by my suggestion mean's i'am elitist... if im trying to suggest a thread to help inform people about the rights and wrongs how is that in any way elitist? ...

Bandwagon, Check.
Fanbois, Check.
FLAME ON!
How about the mod makers just don't touch the chemistry section of the editor and people can add the combinations they want? Would that be a terrible idea?

[Remianen]

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

Yes, Genadi & TCP step aside. We're putting together a committee to decide what gets into your mod. No offense, that's just how it is. :rolleyes:

Tempest Kane, there are two responses to your concerns. One, you don't have to play the mod and two, you can always make your own. Mods provided to the public are done by the project lead's discretion. The only person (or people) who should be deciding what gets into a released mod is the person whose name is primarily on the tin. If they want to load the mod up with preset chemistry, that's their decision to make. You can also make the decision to not use that set of data (or to download and modify it to your liking).

While I agree that the feature is ripe for misuse, I will never agree with someone not having full say in how a mod they're spending time on is developed. And with chemistry being somewhat subjective in reality (though it's not in TEW), what a group of people thinks should be the case, doesn't mean I (or you or him or her) should have to accept that ruling. There is bias everywhere. I'm sure there are people who truly believe that WWE has the best wrestlers in the world. Does that mean every mod should reflect that belief?

[Hive]

I don't have any problem with people playing how they want, but I can't wrap my brain around how much it bothers some that bad chemistry might occur, thereby derailing all their plans forever. If you're playing a WWF mod, you can look at every piece of data (remember in real life bookers can only see the match results and raw data for stuff like drawing power, they can't just filter search their way to find their best guys) and see that Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels are far and away your best wrestlers. If you control chemistry as well, you are guaranteed amazing match quality results every time. I guess that is a re-assurance to some, but it smells an awful lot like eliminating one of the few challenges in the game to me. It also seems like a fundamental lack of understanding of what a mod is. It's not meant to be an exact replica of the real world in every way, so the argument "but I know these two don't have chemistry in RL" is completely inconsequential. It's a GAME version, a starting point that is not meant to be a carbon copy of the real world in every way.

But if you start your game right in the middle of the huge Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart feud, would it make sense that they then get poor chemistry - having prior to the game start had numerous good matches already?

I really don't get how some people can get so worked up about others playing the game differently than themselves. If people want to make the game a lot easier, they can already do that as is - through the ingame or pregame editor. Who cares, and why...?

[TeemuFoundation]

But if you start your game right in the middle of the huge Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart feud, would it make sense that they then get poor chemistry - having prior to the game start had numerous good matches already?

I really don't get how some people can get so worked up about others playing the game differently than themselves. If people want to make the game a lot easier, they can already do that as is - through the ingame or pregame editor. Who cares, and why...?
This is also an important point to bring out. It may mean nothing to most players, but to me it feels awkward to know that in this current game Bret and Shawn have terrible chemistry with each other and I'm playing, say, a 1997 game. Now, I must imagine the Iron Man match they had the year prior as being a complete stinkfest of a match, because, technically, they must have had poor chemistry in that match as well.

[lazorbeak]

But if you start your game right in the middle of the huge Shawn Michaels/Bret Hart feud, would it make sense that they then get poor chemistry - having prior to the game start had numerous good matches already?



This is also an important point to bring out. It may mean nothing to most players, but to me it feels awkward to know that in this current game Bret and Shawn have terrible chemistry with each other and I'm playing, say, a 1997 game. Now, I must imagine the Iron Man match they had the year prior as being a complete stinkfest of a match, because, technically, they must have had poor chemistry in that match as well.

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way. TEW was never designed to be a real-life wrestling mirror. It is designed to be a game. And even if you use a mod, you are playing a game. A game that starts in a fixed, definite point in time and proceeds from there in a way that because of the literally millions of variables, cannot ever mimic the real world exactly as it happened. So the second you say "but this feud already happened and they really did have good matches," you are talking about some la-la land fantasy that the game knows nothing about. In the same way, in one SWF game I noticed that when NOTBPW put Dan Stone vs. Jeremy Stone they only pulled in the B/B- range, despite the game's own bios saying they had been in some of the greatest matches ever. Because TEW is a game.

Chemistry is a game feature that affects how things play out in the game world to ensure that every time you play the game different things will happen. Yes, we all know HBK and Hart had great matches. But what if they didn't? Every time you load up a modded version of the game, you are basically asking thousands of "what ifs" just like that, because it is both impossible and impractical to perfectly reflect the real world while keeping it a game.

I mean I guess I could write a script where no matter what you do Bret Hart goes to WCW, Owen dies, ECW goes bankrupt, the time-warner merger happens, WCW goes under, Brock Lesnar leaves the sport in his prime, and everything the player does is change niggling minutiae like "which match was the main event in Wrestlemania XIII" or "how many title reigns did Chris Jericho have" that has no bearing on the game-world, but that game would not be TEW. Also it would probably suck.

[PeterHilton]

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way.

C'mon.. seriously...?

DO I even need to do the whole "there's no wrong way to play, let the player decide" deal?

Some people think the cool part of a historical mod is to have it play out the way it's "supposed" to. Some don't.

[TeemuFoundation]

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way. TEW was never designed to be a real-life wrestling mirror. It is designed to be a game. And even if you use a mod, you are playing a game. A game that starts in a fixed, definite point in time and proceeds from there in a way that because of the literally millions of variables, cannot ever mimic the real world exactly as it happened. So the second you say "but this feud already happened and they really did have good matches," you are talking about some la-la land fantasy that the game knows nothing about. In the same way, in one SWF game I noticed that when NOTBPW put Dan Stone vs. Jeremy Stone they only pulled in the B/B- range, despite the game's own bios saying they had been in some of the greatest matches ever. Because TEW is a game.

Chemistry is a game feature that affects how things play out in the game world to ensure that every time you play the game different things will happen. Yes, we all know HBK and Hart had great matches. But what if they didn't? Every time you load up a modded version of the game, you are basically asking thousands of "what ifs" just like that, because it is both impossible and impractical to perfectly reflect the real world while keeping it a game.

I mean I guess I could write a script where no matter what you do Bret Hart goes to WCW, Owen dies, ECW goes bankrupt, the time-warner merger happens, WCW goes under, Brock Lesnar leaves the sport in his prime, and everything the player does is change niggling minutiae like "which match was the main event in Wrestlemania XIII" or "how many title reigns did Chris Jericho have" that has no bearing on the game-world, but that game would not be TEW. Also it would probably suck.
I think this only goes to show that you're looking at from just one point of view. Regardless of what TEW "really" is, it can be played in many different ways. And one of them is playing a real world mod where the player wants to think that what has happened in history, until the very point in time you enter the gameworld, has really happened. Maybe this is not what TEW is "supposed to be", but hey, I pay the money for it to have a good time with it. I don't pay the money for it to play the game how some other people want me to paly it.

And I don't honestly understand this debate about chemistry always seems to go to the point where we pre-set chemistry -advocates are blamed for wanting to only recreate history. First of all, it's our game, second of all, blocking one or two bad chemistries from happening in the game has nothing to do with "completely recreating history". And what I was talking about was the history that has happened in the gameworld prior to the start of the savegame and the fact that, to me, it's important. The game knows nothing about this and the title lineages are nothing but text, but I know about them. That's the point. If I book a promotion, where I have two workers that I know have had an extended feud and some point in the past, I may want to reignite the feud they have had, come up with a motivation for them to get in the ring once again and go with that.

If someone pays the money for GTA IV and does nothing to advance the plot and only enjoys the huge sandbox that the game provides, I say go with it. As long as you have fun, I don't see any problem with that, at all. None. It may not be challenging, it may not be the way GTA IV was meant to be played, but who really gives a flying ****? I swear to God, there's enough challenge in my life trying to handle my job, hobbies and relationships that when I sit down and play a videogame, I really just want to have fun. And my way of playing TEW has provided me with hours and hours and hours of quality times well worth the $34,95.

Isn't that a good thing? Isn't THAT the way a games are supposed to be?

[Self]

Jillian Hall & Melina. Bad chemistry or simply bad workers? Those two seem to mess up every other spot.

[TeemuFoundation]

Jillian Hall & Melina. Bad chemistry or simply bad workers? Those two seem to mess up every other spot.
They had a pretty good match once in OVW.

[Adam Ryland]

Please confine the thread to talking about workers in regard to chemistry. The ongoing debate about the concept itself \ player preferences is not only going in circles and is ridiculous, but it's also entirely pointless - the feature isn't going to be taken out, and those who want to use it can, those who don't like it can ignore it. It's retarded to be taking "sides" like it's some sort of war when both sides can have it the way they want it.

Oh, and the next person who swears is getting a warning.

[Hive]

This is evidence that you're looking at things the wrong way.

Frankly speaking, who are you to decide that?

TEW was never designed to be a real-life wrestling mirror. It is designed to be a game. And even if you use a mod, you are playing a game. A game that starts in a fixed, definite point in time and proceeds from there in a way that because of the literally millions of variables, cannot ever mimic the real world exactly as it happened. So the second you say "but this feud already happened and they really did have good matches," you are talking about some la-la land fantasy that the game knows nothing about. In the same way, in one SWF game I noticed that when NOTBPW put Dan Stone vs. Jeremy Stone they only pulled in the B/B- range, despite the game's own bios saying they had been in some of the greatest matches ever. Because TEW is a game.

I'd argue that it's actually rather problematic that the game says two workers have the best matches if it's not actually possible ingame.

Chemistry is a game feature that affects how things play out in the game world to ensure that every time you play the game different things will happen. Yes, we all know HBK and Hart had great matches. But what if they didn't? Every time you load up a modded version of the game, you are basically asking thousands of "what ifs" just like that, because it is both impossible and impractical to perfectly reflect the real world while keeping it a game.

Do you oppose relationships being preset in the game as well, then? By your logic regarding chemistry, you should. Either way, I still don't get why you have a problem with other people playing the game differently than you... there's no online scoreboard you have to compete with. It doesn't really matter. Or at least, it shouldn't... how on earth will you enjoy your game more by knowing that all others play the same way you do? :confused:

I mean I guess I could write a script where no matter what you do Bret Hart goes to WCW, Owen dies, ECW goes bankrupt, the time-warner merger happens, WCW goes under, Brock Lesnar leaves the sport in his prime, and everything the player does is change niggling minutiae like "which match was the main event in Wrestlemania XIII" or "how many title reigns did Chris Jericho have" that has no bearing on the game-world, but that game would not be TEW. Also it would probably suck.

Noone asked for anything like this, and insinuating that's what all proponents of preset chemistries want is rather insulting to be honest.

[Hive]

Please confine the thread to talking about workers in regard to chemistry.

I didn't see this untill now... will do.

[jbergey_2005]

When you say both sides can have it like they want it Adam. Does that mean if a database has too much preset chemistry you can turn that off if you choose and it will play out just like the games do now? - With everyone set a neutral and the game will play out the random factor like it does now? Or do you mean there will be no chemistry in the game when it is off?

Also, if a database has a lot of preset chemistry will this make the game less likely to add new chemistry notes?

Thanks.

[lazorbeak]

Where on earth are people getting the idea that I want people to play differently or decide how people should play "they paid for." Seriously I re-read my post and I'm still not getting it. If you're driving on the street and cars keep coming at you and swerving out of your way, that is evidence that you are doing something wrong. If the default game data doesn't play in a way that you want it to, maybe it's a sign you're looking at it the wrong way? But no, it's obviously me being a big mean guy telling people how to play. :rolleyes:

C'mon.. seriously...?

DO I even need to do the whole "there's no wrong way to play, let the player decide" deal?

I am not telling him how to play I am saying that he is playing a game and any approach where he says "I don't want to be reminded that I'm playing a game" is going to run into roadblocks because he IS PLAYING A GAME. And every time he comes up with an example that doesn't work in the context of the game, it's the sort of thing that can't be avoided because he is in fact playing a game.


I think this only goes to show that you're looking at from just one point of view. Regardless of what TEW "really" is, it can be played in many different ways. And one of them is playing a real world mod where the player wants to think that what has happened in history, until the very point in time you enter the gameworld, has really happened. Maybe this is not what TEW is "supposed to be", but hey, I pay the money for it to have a good time with it. I don't pay the money for it to play the game how some other people want me to paly it.

You paid money for a game. I don't care how you play it, that's what it "really is." And as I said, because of the millions of variables, the game provides a starting point, not a road-map that perfectly reflects what really happened. I don't care if you want it to or how you play or whatever, my point is the game can't do that, so getting frustrated that it can't do that isn't particularly productive.


Frankly speaking, who are you to decide that?

He says he doesn't want to be reminded that he's playing a game, then points out how things the game can't possibly be aware of (previous match results) takes him out of the game world. Again, look at what evidence is. I'm not even saying he's definitely wrong, so please don't act as though I am somehow disparaging him.


Do you oppose relationships being preset in the game as well, then? By your logic regarding chemistry, you should. Either way, I still don't get why you have a problem with other people playing the game differently than you... there's no online scoreboard you have to compete with. It doesn't really matter. Or at least, it shouldn't... how on earth will you enjoy your game more by knowing that all others play the same way you do? :confused:

It's like the whole paragraph is a response to someone else, because it addresses literally nothing I said. 'By your logic you should hate pants!' It's not about my enjoying a game more at all. At all. It's about how if I buy a game, it will be a game. It can't not be a game. Getting mad when Mario runs into invisible walls because it reminds me that I'm playing a game doesn't make sense.

Sorry if this a continuation of this pointless argument, Adam, but I'm not talking about player preferences and based on the EPIC misreading of what I said, clearly I need to clarify what I'm trying to say.

[djthefunkchris]

Best to just drop that part of the conversation period. Adam pointed out what should have been obvious to us all. We should carry on the discussions of who we think have "TEW" Chemistry.

I think John Cena and HBK have good chemistry versus each other. I never thought of Cena/Orton as partner's as has been suggested. I did see them as a tag partner one time, and they played off each other really well, but in my opinion, of that one match, I can't help to think it was just "booked" to be that good. They played off each other's movesets is how I remember it. Something like anyone that tags with Jeff hardy will throw an opponant to the corner, then kneel down in front of that corner so that Jeff can do his "move". I don't think that's chemistry as much as just good match booking.

I only have one match to go by though. I'm interested in what people have to say farther on these two, as this is the first time I really noticed anyone talking about those two as a tag team.

[Self]

I only remember one Orton/Cena team, and it was 2 vs 10+, and ultimate underdog story with them destroying folks with their moves. That was cool, but it was booking, not chemistry.

[jbergey_2005]

Mickey James and Trish Stratus had excellent chemistry.

They put on one of the best matches in that Wrestlemania they were in together. That whole feud was one of the last good ones the WWE has put together.

For the DOTT fans Id say Greg Valentine and Brutus Beefcake had poor chemistry despite being a top notch tag team at the time. Brutus usually looked completely out of place.

Of course when you stick Brutus Beefcake out there with Greg Valentine, Davey Boy Smith and Dynamite Kid it would be difficult for him to not look awkward.

[lazorbeak]

Mickey James and Trish Stratus had excellent chemistry.

They put on one of the best matches in that Wrestlemania they were in together. That whole feud was one of the last good ones the WWE has put together.


Especially if you got the DVD where they edit out the completely botched finish!

Edit: If you can't recognize sarcasm, that's also your problem. ;)

[djthefunkchris]

I only remember one Orton/Cena team, and it was 2 vs 10+, and ultimate underdog story with them destroying folks with their moves. That was cool, but it was booking, not chemistry.

That's the one I saw. However, I figured maybe I missed a couple?

[Self]

Mickey James and Trish Stratus had excellent chemistry.

They put on one of the best matches in that Wrestlemania they were in together. That whole feud was one of the last good ones the WWE has put together.

Well... Trish & Mickie are (arguably) two of the best women wrestlers WWE have ever had. So take those skills, a hot storyline, and an 'All Out' note from being at Wrestlemania and I reckon there's plenty of reason for a good match besides Chemistry. Then again, I didn't see the match. It's just to me, every time someone references a 'Mania match as reason for good chemistry, I kinda disqualify it. EVERYONE works harder at Wrestlemania.

[jbergey_2005]

Well... Trish & Mickie are (arguably) two of the best women wrestlers WWE have ever had. So take those skills, a hot storyline, and an 'All Out' note from being at Wrestlemania and I reckon there's plenty of reason for a good match besides Chemistry. Then again, I didn't see the match. It's just to me, every time someone references a 'Mania match as reason for good chemistry, I kinda disqualify it. EVERYONE works harder at Wrestlemania.

Nope it was much more than that. There is a reason Im not bringing up 50 names. I am trying to be selective.

The way they sold the story is what I was impressed by. Niether of them were great story tellers but putting them together and they told and sold the story.

Its not like the "all out" feature would make a whole lot of difference for these two anyway. Its not like they are going to be able to use their pure athleticsm to make some unbelievable moves or their massive strength to pull of things that have never been done before. They just put together a great match by clicking.

[jbergey_2005]

Especially if you got the DVD where they edit out the completely botched finish!

If you cant enjoy a match because of 1 move thats your problem.

Id rather watch a match that tells a story and shows great in ring psychology any day over a spot fest that all the moves are done brilliantly.

Besides the discussion is about chemistry. One botched move doesnt throw a lot of great work out the window.

[Vladamire Dracos]

Speaking of DOTT, a good chemistry: Jake The Snake and Ron Garvin. Anyone who could tell when a guy was ready to kick the crud out of you by the guys nipples getting hard has to have a deeper connection than is typically found with an opponent. :p

[Basmat01]

EVERYONE works harder at Wrestlemania.

Maybe you werent thinking about Brock Lesnar and Goldberg when you typed that :p


But Seriously I wont be using this feature in my mod

[Phil Parent]

Speaking of DOTT, a good chemistry: Jake The Snake and Ron Garvin. Anyone who could tell when a guy was ready to kick the crud out of you by the guys nipples getting hard has to have a deeper connection than is typically found with an opponent. :p

I laughed so hard I cried. Thank you Vlady.

[DreamGoddessLindsey]

When i think of this addition i just think of Russo sat in the creative meeting at TNA saying "Yeah of course thats it! Abyss has wonderful chemistry with Matt Morgan, that will make an awesome fued, book it!!!"

Basicaly speaking... it was one of the worst fueds for both of them, but since chemistry is 100% subjective to opinion im sure their are actualy people who will put that into a mod as a great chemistry...

Frankly i think we need some kind of commitee setup of the most expiranced players to decide who gets chemistry and who dosnt on some of these mods that are going to come out, coz its just going to be freaking dier, this right here is a can of worms of problems i just dont think anyone needed.

The thing about chemistry is its supposed to be a magical thing, its supposed to show up were you dont expect it, it feels like it should be intended to be random at all times and used sparingly, and the truth is i think almost every mod for 2010 will have default chemistrys for just about everyone in the database's as people will feel the need to add them, and then what are you left with? Mods that play the same way every time constantly... can we turn this off? most likely... but dosnt anyone else think this takes something away from the overall TEW expirance most people are going to get?

Are we loseing something very core to what the game is about? I asked myself this same thing when they announced the ability to turn off the match repeat penaltys...

The thing is, some people aren't playing for a challenge. Some people like to play through history with their own storylines but with real world workers as they really were (meaning Flair and Steamboat would have great chemistry, etc.) and other people just want to make an entertaining diary without the full-on challenge of the game (I fall into this category).

It's not always about making things more challenging, it's about making things more fun. I'm not the type of person to play a whole lot of different saves. Usually, when I play, I stick to one or maybe two games, definitely one per universe, and I don't start over very often. Hell, even though I'll be buying TEW2010, I likely won't be stopping my TEW2008 diary to run it in TEW2010, because I like keeping a game running.

So no, I don't think anything is lost from this feature. It'll make the game more fun, even if it makes it less challenging.

Besides, while chemistry certainly is random, it surely isn't magical. In three months of game time I already have over a dozen chemistry notes, so it's not like it's rare or anything. That and negative chemistry seems more common than positive chemistry.

[ampulator]

I have to say Michaels and Cena DO NOT have good chemistry. Do they have bad chemistry? Probably not. Good? No.

[Gigas]

How about Lita and Edge?

Heyman and Lesnar?

Im not sure how the manager chemistry really works though. It seems it'd cover angles and matches.

[jbergey_2005]

I have to say Michaels and Cena DO NOT have good chemistry. Do they have bad chemistry? Probably not. Good? No.

Any particular reason you feel this way? Or just because you say so?

[Phantom Stranger]

Here's a wacky thought.

Next TEW, there's going to be this feature. It breaks down exactly what goes into calculating the results of a match.

How about, in order to work out how much chemistry affects things, we use this feature...

...and see how much chemistry affects things?

THEN you can apply it to your mod more effectively with knowledge of how it works.

[jbergey_2005]

How about Lita and Edge?

Heyman and Lesnar?

Im not sure how the manager chemistry really works though. It seems it'd cover angles and matches.

Id so no on Lita/Edge. Did Lita enhance the Edge character? IMO no. Could Michelle McCool or Trish Stratus have done the same thing as Lita? I believe so. Her heelish tramp gimmick got over well as it was what people actually felt about her because of the Matt Hardy situation.

[Historian]

Gorilla got the worst announcer several years running, because while he could be entertaining, for that era's style he was not a good 'announcer.' I for one, never liked Gorilla as an announcer, I thought he was helped by Heenan, but only because Heenan is utterly fantastic, and was great even when he didn't care.

But to the topic of chemistry mods... I am rather indifferent to it. I currentlyh ave two mods that I cycle back and forth between, one real world mod, and the 1975 C Verse mod... If I decide to get any of the mods for TEW 2010, I'm going to mass delete all the pre-set chemistry that comes with the games, and make my own if I think there is a situation that calls for it. Not to make the game easier, but there are some teams I think should have neutral chemistry, not good or bad... I think that is the chemistry feature I will most use, and mostly for tag teams... I think anyone who 'hates' this feature, or thinks it was a 'bad idea' really need to think hard about it. It's not a bad idea because you don't agree with it... And what you might think is a bad idea NOW, might change in a few months when you're playing the game, and you realize the feature wasn't all that bad, or that people didn't misuse the feature.

When I read diaries [and cheap pop for the Remi QAW diary, and James Casey's Mid-Atlantic Diary as my two favorites], I could care less if they've changed stats around to make the game more suited to them, so I doubt I'll care if they make people have good chemistry with each other.. Because, I do not believe people will do it just so they can stick with the same old same old... For instance, maybe someone really thinks Dolph Ziggler should be the new franchise heel of Smackdown [I just decided to pick him for argument's purposes], and they want to give him good chemistry with other members of the Smackdown roster, I don't think it should matter to the diary reader that they did... Because no one really wants to stick with the same story-lines, because it does get repetitive, and people who want to get the maximum experience out of their game, they're going to have to change it up. For instance, I like to do Dan Stone Jr versus Sean Mcfly, and then I also like to bring in Hell Monkey and push him to the moon against Stone Jr...

Just because the feature is there, does not mean people are going to misuse it so they can do the same feuds over and over again... People tend to like change, and, I'm willing to bet that most people have several workers they like, and numerous main event feuds they want the opportunity to run... I don't think this is going to hinder anyone's creativity, or give any diary writer a reason to just stick with the same thing... Because if they are writing a diary, chances are they are creative, and I don't foresee creative people sticking with the same feuds....

Now, this post turned out to be longer than I expected, but hopefully I conveyed my points sufficently...

BTW: Adam Ryland, Miss Elizabeth was not useless. While not vocal, she provided an element that Savage did not have, and the ability to run story-lines and provide finishes that weren't otherwise there. While I do not think she was not overly talented, nor would I say she and Savage had 'great chemistry' because she did not make him perform better than he did without her, I wouldn't call her useless

[djthefunkchris]

BTW: Adam Ryland, Miss Elizabeth was not useless. While not vocal, she provided an element that Savage did not have, and the ability to run story-lines and provide finishes that weren't otherwise there. While I do not think she was not overly talented, nor would I say she and Savage had 'great chemistry' because she did not make him perform better than he did without her, I wouldn't call her useless

My first thought was "Generic". The added elimants she brought to the table were "generic" in that you could have replaced her with quite a few different women, and would have had the same results (maybe even better). Just my opinion of that though.

I wouldn't give them bad or good chemistry..> Perhaps neutral to make sure that they do not get bad chemistry... Other then that, I don't think "who" it was mattered, as long as it was the same person for the whole storyline(s).

[EricAdams]

I'm mostly a ROHbot so off the top of my head:

Nigel McGuinnes vs. Bryan Danielson
Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk
Austin Aries vs. Tyler Black
Jimmy Jacobs vs. BJ Whitmer

other than that - Steamboat vs. Flair and HBK vs. Undertaker.

[shamelessposer]

HBK vs. Undertaker.

This is an example of a pair who don't need chemistry. Two guys going into the biggest pay-per-view of the year with a heavily hyped feud, a ton of momentum, B-to-B-plus popularity and high stats going all out are more often than not going to put on the match of the night. Michaels-Foley, on the other hand, might deserve chemistry since the two performed to a high standard with very little in the way of buildup or preparation.

[Genadi]

Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk


Agree on this 100%, their styles definitely helped mesh the matches together but that feud was the last real storyline I enjoyed from start to finish and felt paid off perfectly. They took eachother to another level.

[TeemuFoundation]

What do you guys think about Eddie Guerrero and Kurt Angle? Am I completely off by suggesting that those two would have bad chemistry in TEW terms? Two unbelievable workers who, on paper, should be able to put on the greatest match in the history or professional wrestling, given a good 20 minutes. But for some reason that didn't happen during their feud in 2004.

Don't get me wrong, the matches were good, no doubt, but they weren't as good as the "combined stats of the two workers", if we were to look at the matches from a TEW point of view. Those two were great workers so they could work through the problems and have a better match than most of the guys on the roster, but I do feel that the matches should have been a lot better than they were.

But then again Eddie was having his heart problems and sometimes couldn't go all out in the ring and that may have been a factor. Angle talked about this in his shoot interview. May his soul rest in peace.

[Zeel1]

What do you guys think about Eddie Guerrero and Kurt Angle? Am I completely off by suggesting that those two would have bad chemistry in TEW terms? Two unbelievable workers who, on paper, should be able to put on the greatest match in the history or professional wrestling, given a good 20 minutes. But for some reason that didn't happen during their feud in 2004.

Don't get me wrong, the matches were good, no doubt, but they weren't as good as the "combined stats of the two workers", if we were to look at the matches from a TEW point of view. Those two were great workers so they could work through the problems and have a better match than most of the guys on the roster, but I do feel that the matches should have been a lot better than they were.

But then again Eddie was having his heart problems and sometimes couldn't go all out in the ring and that may have been a factor. Angle talked about this in his shoot interview. May his soul rest in peace.

Maybe..when you have good enough workers in TEW together, they can overcome chemistry issues and still put on good matches. For instance, in a WWE updated game I ran, Jericho and Taker had bad chemistry, but still put together a B-rated match. And I know in PS's Quiet Retirement diary, Troy Tornado and Tommy Cornell still put on great matches despite not clicking, so a match-up like Angle/Guerrero should most definately be able to work through it.

[Vladamire Dracos]

I laughed so hard I cried. Thank you Vlady.

Awesome, that was the response I was aiming for. :)

Another example of good chemistry I feel: Tommy Dreamer vs. Raven. Raven vs. Sandman seemed to have good chemistry as well.

[BurningHamster]

But then again Eddie was having his heart problems and sometimes couldn't go all out in the ring and that may have been a factor. Angle talked about this in his shoot interview. May his soul rest in peace.


Yeah, not sure if it was so much a lack of chemistry as just Guerrero's health problems kind of messing him up. Plus, Angle in my mind as good as he is has never really been the kind of guy who could hold a match together in my opinion.

Guerrero and JBL on the other hand I would say had some chemistry. Never was a fan of JBL until he was in the ring with Guerrero.

[Phantom Stranger]

Maybe..when you have good enough workers in TEW together, they can overcome chemistry issues and still put on good matches. For instance, in a WWE updated game I ran, Jericho and Taker had bad chemistry, but still put together a B-rated match. And I know in PS's Quiet Retirement diary, Troy Tornado and Tommy Cornell still put on great matches despite not clicking, so a match-up like Angle/Guerrero should most definately be able to work through it.

Yeah, I've never been too horribly worried about bad chemistry - I avoid using it in future, but it doesn't stop me finishing the program I started.

Tornado and Cornell hit A twice despite bad chemistry.

[eayragt]

Brawler vs Brawler
Techincian vs Technician
Cruiser vs Cruiser

Every time someone suggests these combos as good chemistry, please stop and think. If you put a good technician against another good technician you're meant to get a great match. Kurt Angle vs Chris Beniot should have always been an outstanding match based on their skills, not chemistry. They had great matches together, yes, but did they have chemistry with one another? I have no evidence of that.

[Hive]

How about Shawn Michaels and Scott Hall? While I haven't seen any of their matches myself, I hear they had some pretty stunning encounters... and iirc, one of their matches got voted match of the year.

Not saying they definately *should* have good chemistry, just curious to hear what someone who may actually have seen some of their matches feel.

[djthefunkchris]

How about Shawn Michaels and Scott Hall? While I haven't seen any of their matches myself, I hear they had some pretty stunning encounters... and iirc, one of their matches got voted match of the year.
Not saying they definately *should* have good chemistry, just curious to hear what someone who may actually have seen some of their matches feel.

I believe that was a ladder match, and the gimmick (being the first for WWE I believe) match being what really hyped it up.

[TeemuFoundation]

Goldberg and DDP? Their matches were better than they had any right to be. Especially the one at Halloween Havoc 1998, which was actually a very good match. Something no one expected it to be. Those two had something, in my opinion.

[King Chono]

How about Shawn Michaels and Scott Hall? While I haven't seen any of their matches myself, I hear they had some pretty stunning encounters... and iirc, one of their matches got voted match of the year.

Not saying they definately *should* have good chemistry, just curious to hear what someone who may actually have seen some of their matches feel.

In terms of actual skill, Scott Hall was probably one of the most underrated workers of the 90's. People only look at his matches after he stopped caring and label him bad. On the other side of the equation was also Shawn Michaels, who is Shawn Michaels. They didn't do anything that I wouldn't expect based on their skills and overness.

[slack]

It's really hard to talk chemistry with guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, and Randy Savage, because those guys could get good matches out of anyone. For someone to have good chemistry with someone, bith guys would have to take each other to another level they otherwise might not get to. I think Lesnar and Kurt Angle had good chemistry.

[ampulator]

It's really hard to talk chemistry with guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, and Randy Savage, because those guys could get good matches out of anyone. For someone to have good chemistry with someone, bith guys would have to take each other to another level they otherwise might not get to. I think Lesnar and Kurt Angle had good chemistry.

You just contradicted yourself. :p Not trying to get your case, but just pointing it out. ;) If you claim it's hard to talk about chemistry "with guys like Ric Flair, Shawn Michaels, and Randy Savage", then I can't see how you can say the same about Kurt Angle, maybe even Brock Lesnar. Just point it out. :)

In any case, the most important thing isn't who has GOOD chemistry, but who has BAD and NEUTRAL chemistry.

For example, there is no chance in hell Flair and Steamboat have bad chemistry. There just isn't. They can't wrestle each other that many times and NOT have others notice that, if they don't work well together, it actually shows.

[randomfreeze]

I had misguided hate towards this feature when it was announced Friday. I don’t actually hate that it’s included in the game, it’s been said you can delete it if you want so obviously that’s not a problem. What bothered me was the past year and a half of the boneheads who have been complaining and campaigning to make this a feature in the game. Out of the hundreds of variables that matches get graded on, every person who wanted the game to be easier gravitated towards editing chemistry because the end result is spelled out in front of you that it’s bad, awful…whatever. Some people only get a hardon for booking Flair and Steamboat or Punk and Joe and if they have bad chemistry they can’t think outside their real world box and come up with something different. It would have been easier to figure out a way to play the game with poor chemistry than complaining about it being there. I don’t care if you play the game differently than me, but trashing a feature that has such a small impact on the entire experience is what I was bothered by. But, now it’s included in the game so there really isn’t much to say in the matter except I’m glad it will shut up the grumpy guys who wanted it.

[D-Lyrium]

Mike Hogewood and Dave Prazak. Terrible chemistry.

Mike Hogewood is pretty terrible himself, but their commentary often sounds like they're in different rooms and can't hear each other. Many times they just completely ignore each other's points (although in Prazak's case that might be because he doesn't want to embarass his partner by bringing to light his latest gaffe).

[The Final Countdown]

I'm mostly a ROHbot so off the top of my head:

Nigel McGuinnes vs. Bryan Danielson
Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk
Austin Aries vs. Tyler Black
Jimmy Jacobs vs. BJ Whitmer

I'm with you on Joe/Punk--that three-match series was incredible, and I'd say a step above what either of them has managed with anyone else, so I'd give them some sort of positive chemistry. Jacobs/Whitmer is possible, because their matches always seemed to exceed my expectations. But I wouldn't give a positive chemistry note to either of the other pairings. I don't think Aries works any better with Black than he does with any number of other guys. Their matches aren't bad by any stretch--just not far above what they can and have done with others. Same with Nigel/Danielson. Every match I've seen between them was awesome--but I think that's more down to the fact that they're both ace.

Mike Hogewood and Dave Prazak. Terrible chemistry.

Mike Hogewood is pretty terrible himself, but their commentary often sounds like they're in different rooms and can't hear each other. Many times they just completely ignore each other's points (although in Prazak's case that might be because he doesn't want to embarass his partner by bringing to light his latest gaffe).
I don't think that's as much about chemistry as it is the fact that, like you said, Hogewood just doesn't know what he's talking about most of the time.

[Genadi]

I think we could all agree on the fact that it would be near impossible to get an A* match out of two opponents with bad chemistry (I'm sure some will disgree :p ). Now let's take that into account and look at the matches that have received 5 stars from Dave Meltzer (again I know many people don't value his opinion but he's the most respected journo and one of the oldest).

All Japan Pro Wrestling
Bruiser Brody & Stan Hansen vs. Dory Funk, Jr. & Terry Funk - December 8, 1984
Tiger Mask II vs. Kuniaki Kobayashi - March 9, 1985
Jumbo Tsuruta vs. Genichiro Tenryu - June 5, 1989
Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Jumbo Tsuruta - June 8, 1990
Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, & Masanobu Fuchi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, & Kenta Kobashi - October 19, 1990
Mitsuharu Misawa, Toshiaki Kawada, & Kenta Kobashi vs. Jumbo Tsuruta, Akira Taue, & Masanobu Fuchi - April 20, 1991
Jumbo Tsuruta, Masanobu Fuchi, & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Toshiaki Kawada - May 22, 1992
Dan Kroffat & Doug Furnas vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - May 25, 1992
Masanobu Fuchi & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Kenta Kobashi & Tsuyoshi Kikuchi - July 5, 1992
Toshiaki Kawada vs. Kenta Kobashi - April 14, 1993
Toshiaki Kawada, Akira Taue, & Yoshinari Ogawa vs. Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Jun Akiyama- July 2, 1993
Stan Hansen vs. Kenta Kobashi - July 29, 1993
Steve Williams vs. Kenta Kobashi - August 31, 1993
Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi - December 3, 1993
Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi, & Giant Baba vs. Masanobu Fuchi, Toshiaki Kawada, & Akira Taue - February 13, 1994
Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - May 21, 1994
Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada - June 3, 1994
Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada - January 19, 1995
Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - January 24, 1995
Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Steve Williams & Johnny Ace - March 4, 1995
Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Akira Taue - April 15, 1995
Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - June 9, 1995
Mitsuharu Misawa & Kenta Kobashi & Satoru Asako vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue & Tamon Honda - June 30, 1995
Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue - May 23, 1996
Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama vs. Steve Williams & Johnny Ace - June 7, 1996
Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama - December 6, 1996
Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Toshiaki Kawada - June 6, 1997
Toshiaki Kawada & Akira Taue vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Jun Akiyama - December 5, 1997
Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - October 31, 1998
Mitsuharu Misawa vs. Kenta Kobashi - June 11, 1999
Kenta Kobashi & Jun Akiyama vs. Mitsuharu Misawa & Yoshinari Ogawa - October 23, 1999

All Japan Women's Pro-Wrestling
Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue - May 18, 1992
Manami Toyota vs. Toshiyo Yamada - August 15, 1992
Akira Hokuto vs. Shinobu Kandori - April 2, 1993
Kyoko Inoue & Takako Inoue vs. Cutie Suzuki & Mayumi Ozaki - April 2, 1993
Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki - April 11, 1993
Manami Toyota & Toshiyo Yamada vs. Dynamite Kansai & Mayumi Ozaki - December 6, 1993
Manami Toyota vs. Kyoko Inoue - August 24, 1994
Manami Toyota vs. Aja Kong - November 20, 1994

Asistencia Asesoría y Administración
Los Gringos Locos (Eddie Guerrero and Art Barr) vs. El Hijo del Santo & Octagón (hair vs. masks; 2-out-of-3 falls under elimination rules for each fall) – When Worlds Collide, November 6, 1994

Japan Women's Pro Wrestling
Dynamite Kansai, Cutie Suzuki, Mayumi Ozaki, & Hikari Fukuoka vs. Aja Kong, Sakie Hasegawa, Kyoko Inoue, & Takako Inoue - July 31, 1993

National Wrestling Alliance/World Championship Wrestling
The Sheepherders vs. The Fantastics (Bobby Fulton and Tommy Rogers) - Crockett Cup Tournament, April 19, 1986
Ric Flair vs. Barry Windham - Crockett Cup Tournament, April 11, 1987
Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair - Chi-Town Rumble, February 20, 1989
Ricky Steamboat vs. Ric Flair (2/3 falls) - Clash of the Champions VI, April 2, 1989
Ric Flair vs. Ricky Steamboat - WrestleWar, May 7, 1989
Ric Flair vs. Terry Funk ("I Quit" match) - Clash of the Champions IX, November 15, 1989
Ric Flair, Larry Zbyszko, Barry Windham, & Sid Vicious vs. Sting, Brian Pillman, Rick Steiner, & Scott Steiner (WarGames match) - WrestleWar, February 24, 1991
Sting, Nikita Koloff, Ricky Steamboat, Barry Windham, & Dustin Rhodes vs. Rick Rude, Steve Austin, Arn Anderson, Bobby Eaton, & Larry Zbyszko (WarGames match)- WrestleWar, May 17, 1992

New Japan Pro Wrestling
Tiger Mask I vs. Dynamite Kid - April 21, 1983
Jushin Liger vs. El Samurai - Best of the Super Juniors finals, May 9th, 1992
Wild Pegasus vs. Great Sasuke - Super J Cup, April 16, 1994
Jushin Liger vs. Great Sasuke - July 8, 1994
El Samurai vs. Koji Kanemoto - Best of the Super Juniors finals, June 5, 1997
[edit] Pro Wrestling Noah
Kenta Kobashi vs. Mitsuharu Misawa - March 1, 2003
Kenta Kobashi vs. Jun Akiyama - July 10, 2004

Ring of Honor
Samoa Joe vs. CM Punk - October 16, 2004
Samoa Joe vs. Kenta Kobashi - October 1, 2005
Dragon Kid, Genki Horiguchi, & Ryo Saito vs. CIMA, Naruki Doi, & Masato Yoshino - March 31, 2006 (Presented as a Dragon Gate production)
[edit] Total Nonstop Action Wrestling
A.J. Styles vs. Samoa Joe vs. Christopher Daniels – TNA Unbreakable, September 11, 2005

Universal Wrestling Federation
Kazuo Yamazaki vs. Nobuhiko Takada - December 5, 1984

World Wrestling Federation/Entertainment
Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon (Ladder match) – WrestleMania X, March 20, 1994
Bret Hart vs. Owen Hart (Cage match) – SummerSlam, August 29, 1994
Bret Hart vs. Steve Austin (Submission match) – WrestleMania 13, March 23, 1997
Shawn Michaels vs. The Undertaker (Hell in a Cell match) – Badd Blood, October 5, 1997


Now granted from the above list some of the high reviews from those bouts were a result of popular workers, great build, complimenting styels etc. However I'm sure at least a few had good or fantastic chemistry, just thought I'd point those out to float some ideas around. At least we can rule out most of those 1 on 1 matches as guys with bad chemistry.

[soundsofsilver]

I don't have too much to contribute to this, but I would like to think that Chris Benoit and Booker T had really good chemistry?

Chris Benoit was obviously exceptional, and Booker T was decent, but their matches were great. So great that WCW booked them, two midcarders, to go at a best of 7 series for a SHOT at the least prestigious title in the promotion. I can't imagine any reason that would happen except for good chemistry. And their styles weren't mirrors of each other, they just went together really well.


Undertaker and El Gigante for bad chemistry? While two giants, when one of them is so talentless, is generally a recipe for disaster, that match was especially bad.

Bret Hart and Davey Boy Smith for good chemistry? It's tough to say how good Smith was exactly, but some of Bret's best matches were against Smith, which is saying something.

I wonder about Undertaker and Kane. Part of this is bad memory, so I'm simply curious on people's opinions. Kane clearly got over because of Undertaker, but was it because of the storyline, or were their matches actually really good? I have a hard time thinking they could have pushed that feud so long if the two didn't actually have good chemistry. Or maybe Kane is a better worker than I think. I honestly don't watch enough post-1998 wrestling to know.

There was an argument earlier about the New Age Outlaws... I'm not really sure they had great chemistry. I think they benefitted from really good gimmicks. They had the right charisma to pull off the gimmick, and then getting involved with Triple H when he was hot cemented that. I don't know that their matches were actually any better than Smoking Gunns matches, but they benefitted from a great gimmick. Mr. Ass, solo, was a less successful gimmick, but were his matches any worse?

Ric Flair vs. Sting has to be chemistry, right? I mean, Sting was still very green back then, and those were some great matches. Much better than they should have been. Since Sting ended up being a good worker, that's not surprising, but back in 1990?

As far as tag teams, I think the case has to be made for most of the tag teams that were considered good, but not great individually. It MUST be true about the Steiner Brothers. They were a great, great tag team that had a lot of really good matches, but were not that talented individually. I never know how to rate them in mods, because I want to simulate their ability as a tag team, without them becoming great singles wrestlers. This is also true of the Road Warriors. I don't think chemistry should apply for teams like the Rockers, British Bulldogs, Hart Foundation, Arn Anderson's teams, Harlem Heat, etc. that had one really talented member. But when a team consistently put on much better matches than they should have, it should apply, and I think this is especially true of the Steiners.

It is difficult to quantify all this on the real-world level, in the same way it is difficult to argue about what a wrestler's stats are. Chemistry, like wrestling ability, is certainly a
real part of pro wrestling, but it's difficult to be able to include, with all the other factors. There is also the problem of memory. When I watched every Monday from 1996 to 1998, I'm sure I occasionally thought, "Wow, that Prince Iaukea match was surprisingly entertaining." but I don't remember that now. And most of the memorable matches are between workers that are considered to be talented anyway. Real life isn't made up of raw data like TEW, so it's difficult to say the intangibles.

[Adam Ryland]

It MUST be true about the Steiner Brothers. They were a great, great tag team that had a lot of really good matches, but were not that talented individually. I never know how to rate them in mods, because I want to simulate their ability as a tag team, without them becoming great singles wrestlers.

I think that the fact that this is the fourth of fifth time someone has said that the Steiners weren't great workers individually is proof, if proof were needed, that this forum is primarily made up of people whose knowledge of wrestling is primarily from the late 1990s onward. Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

[sabataged]

I think that the fact that this is the fourth of fifth time someone has said that the Steiners weren't great workers individually is proof, if proof were needed, that this forum is primarily made up of people whose knowledge of wrestling is primarily from the late 1990s onward. Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

Both were hugely talented. They both could suplex you out of your boots from any where. Also Scotty was the first American I ever seen do the frankensteiner. It wasn't until he hurt his back that he bulked up to his freakish look and reinvented himself.

[LoganRodzen]

I think that the fact that this is the fourth of fifth time someone has said that the Steiners weren't great workers individually is proof, if proof were needed, that this forum is primarily made up of people whose knowledge of wrestling is primarily from the late 1990s onward. Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

Scott was a legitimate athlete. He was doing NCAA wrestling before I was even born. It's the steroids and his size that made him the "genetic freak" that people remember him as. He didn't even weight 200 lbs when he got into wrestling in the mid-80's. Just goes to show you what the wrestling business can force people to do.

[Genadi]

Scott Steiner was considered one of the best young workers on the planet at one point in time, and Rick was a solid worker in his own right. Nobody who saw them in their prime would ever call them "not that talented".

Thanks you, reason sounds in. :)

Even after they split in the very late 90's I think Steiner was superstar material through and through. His body and lifestyle caught up with him, add to that a terrible attitude and his light dwindled.

[Hive]

+1 for the Steiners...

When they were in their prime, they were goood.

The problem later on probably was that Scott Steiner's steroid abuse and injuries ruined him a bit while Rick Steiner didn't have the charisma to be a superstar alone and thus didn't get much attention.

[justtxyank]

To take Adam's thoughts a step further, both Steiners were still solid individual workers as late as like 1998.

I do think they are still an example of good chemistry though, because when they were together everything just clicked. They are one of the best examples of a tag team in history in my opinion.

[Nedew]

Also Scotty was the first American I ever seen do the frankensteiner.

It's called that for a reason! :p

[Hive]

I do think they are still an example of good chemistry though, because when they were together everything just clicked. They are one of the best examples of a tag team in history in my opinion.

Indeed. If the Steiners isn't an example of good tag team chemistry, then what team is?

[Derek B]

Discussion about chemistry is hard because it's basically a derivative of trying to work out a worker's skills in the first place. And given how much debate that gets in every mod ever, that makes working out chemistry even harder. I'm glad I don't make real world mods as this would be a logistical nightmare to work out. Cornellverse1997, here I come! :D

[Historian]

I agree with Derek that discussions of chemistry are very hard, not only because each person has their own opinion of who is talented, but people have their own opinions of what was a good match, or a good tag team, etc...

I shall chip in my two cents as far as tag teams I thought I had good chemistry together.

1. Cade/Murdoch
Reason: I have always thought Murdoch was a good wrestler in his own right, and Cade has some talent, but as a Tag Team I thought they were far better than when they were singles, and I'm not just talking about their WWE stuff. I have seen them in other locations, and I just feel they complimented each other as tag team partners, and had good (maybe not great) but definitely good chemistry as a team.

2. Owen Hart and Davey Boy Smith
Reason: Both were exceptional workers in their own right. Davey was starting to slow down but could still go. Owen Hart, in my opinion, is one of the top five wrestlers to never be a real main eventer, and both had good to great matches with out each other, and some might disagree and say that their team was just the blend of two very good workers, I think they had excellent chemistry.

3. Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey/Stan Lane
Reason: The Midnight Express in both it's major incarnations are one of the greatest tag teams of all time, yet none of the three wrestlers were really able to capture any magic as singles stars, and as duo's they were far better than they were as singles stars.

I think people have this misconception that because two workers are really good, that when they team and the team is good, that the success is naturally a by product of them being good. When singles opponents, I'd tend to agree, but tag team wrestling is a different monster than singles wrestling. Teams like The Midnight Express had two men who excelled at Tag Team wrestling, but were not able to get above mid-card status as singles stars, Shawn Michaels and Triple H are both good wrestlers in their own right, both have had very good matches with numerous opponents. Some may disagree with Triple H, but this is not about starting an argument. The point is, as good as I feel they both are, as a team they don't bring anything special to the table, and are just rather 'eh'. They're not a bad team, but they're not a great team either.

Being a good team does not take, necessarily, two good workers. Two average workers can make a good team, and two good workers can make an average team... That's my opinion, at least... You can disagree if you want, I love a good discussion.

[djthefunkchris]

I agree with Derek that discussions of chemistry are very hard, not only because each person has their own opinion of who is talented, but people have their own opinions of what was a good match, or a good tag team, etc...

I shall chip in my two cents as far as tag teams I thought I had good chemistry together.

1. Cade/Murdoch
Reason: I have always thought Murdoch was a good wrestler in his own right, and Cade has some talent, but as a Tag Team I thought they were far better than when they were singles, and I'm not just talking about their WWE stuff. I have seen them in other locations, and I just feel they complimented each other as tag team partners, and had good (maybe not great) but definitely good chemistry as a team.

2. Owen Hart and Davey Boy Smith
Reason: Both were exceptional workers in their own right. Davey was starting to slow down but could still go. Owen Hart, in my opinion, is one of the top five wrestlers to never be a real main eventer, and both had good to great matches with out each other, and some might disagree and say that their team was just the blend of two very good workers, I think they had excellent chemistry.

3. Bobby Eaton and Dennis Condrey/Stan Lane
Reason: The Midnight Express in both it's major incarnations are one of the greatest tag teams of all time, yet none of the three wrestlers were really able to capture any magic as singles stars, and as duo's they were far better than they were as singles stars.

I think people have this misconception that because two workers are really good, that when they team and the team is good, that the success is naturally a by product of them being good. When singles opponents, I'd tend to agree, but tag team wrestling is a different monster than singles wrestling. Teams like The Midnight Express had two men who excelled at Tag Team wrestling, but were not able to get above mid-card status as singles stars, Shawn Michaels and Triple H are both good wrestlers in their own right, both have had very good matches with numerous opponents. Some may disagree with Triple H, but this is not about starting an argument. The point is, as good as I feel they both are, as a team they don't bring anything special to the table, and are just rather 'eh'. They're not a bad team, but they're not a great team either.

Being a good team does not take, necessarily, two good workers. Two average workers can make a good team, and two good workers can make an average team... That's my opinion, at least... You can disagree if you want, I love a good discussion.

Pretty much agree though. Two great worker's can make a horrible tag team (bad chemistry). Two mediocre worker's could make an OUTSTANDING tag team (Great Chemistry). With "Neutral" chemistry, the first two would make a great tag team anyways, and the mediocre workers a mediocre tag team.

That's how I see it anyways.

[Xoda]

I don't know if it has been said but for me the perfect example of chemistry is Beer Money.inc, two workers who the frist time they tag they were an awesome duo.

[EricAdams]

I just thought of another one I'm not sure I saw mentioned: Masato Tanaka and Mike Awesome. Also Kobashi vs. Misawa, KENTA vs. Marufuji

[King Chono]

I just thought of another one I'm not sure I saw mentioned: Masato Tanaka and Mike Awesome. Also Kobashi vs. Misawa, KENTA vs. Marufuji

I covered Kobashi/Misawa and something like KENTA/Marufuji in my post(possibly in this thread). Kobashi and Misawa never had a match that was any better than their overness/stats would permit. They had equally good matches with other people on the All Japan roster, so unless you're trying to say the entire All Japan roster deserves great chemistry with each other, I'd say they're more on the neutral chemistry ground.

[EricAdams]

I covered Kobashi/Misawa and something like KENTA/Marufuji in my post(possibly in this thread). Kobashi and Misawa never had a match that was any better than their overness/stats would permit. They had equally good matches with other people on the All Japan roster, so unless you're trying to say the entire All Japan roster deserves great chemistry with each other, I'd say they're more on the neutral chemistry ground.

I see what you're saying and it makes sense. I still think Tanaka/Awesome need it.

[Teh_Showtime]

Nobody thinks punk and morrison have good chemistry? I mean punk is good and morrison is talented but even their ecw title matches stole the show back in 06 (at SummerSlam especially) and even their recent matches this year were some of the best in wwe (i know that doesnt count for much though)

[soundsofsilver]

I would agree that the Steiners of 1995 were much more talented than the individual Steiners of 2000; however, I think that as a team they were much more than the sum of their parts.

[jbergey_2005]

Nobody thinks punk and morrison have good chemistry? I mean punk is good and morrison is talented but even their ecw title matches stole the show back in 06 (at SummerSlam especially) and even their recent matches this year were some of the best in wwe (i know that doesnt count for much though)

I think Punk and Morrison are just that good with or without great chemistry so its hard to know for certain on them two.

[Karl_Kitsch]

With Punk and Morrison, I think the match just outstripped their Popularity, not their Performance.

[Slayer]

One of example of great chemistry from back in the day in WCW was Sting and the Great Muta(Keiji Mutoh). They seemed to click even though they worked totally different styles and I think it made Sting up his all around game from the power wrestler he could have been stuck as.

As for really bad chemistry I would have to say Undertaker and Kane tagging against Kronik was just a mess. What makes this one stand out is that Taker actually was friends with those guys and one would assume they would have worked out the match at some point. But maybe it was just a bad mix to begin with.

[D16NJD16]

Everyone should just always keep in mind not to mistake two guys who are just both great and therefore have great matches with two guys who have chemistry with each other.

[Sartagis]

One of example of great chemistry from back in the day in WCW was Sting and the Great Muta(Keiji Mutoh). They seemed to click even though they worked totally different styles and I think it made Sting up his all around game from the power wrestler he could have been stuck as.

As for really bad chemistry I would have to say Undertaker and Kane tagging against Kronik was just a mess. What makes this one stand out is that Taker actually was friends with those guys and one would assume they would have worked out the match at some point. But maybe it was just a bad mix to begin with.

Problem with Sting/Mutoh example is that Mutoh is well really good, and Sting was passable by the time they started facing off. Also compared to other Mutoh matches he had with main event caliber wrestlers, the Sting matches while good were not really all that outstanding. So it's more of a real good worker carrying (sorta) a decent wrestler to a better match then he could have with someone of lesser quality, not two wrestlers having both their games upped by working with each other.

And I don't think there is tag team chemistry against each other, chemistry between partners but not against other teams. At least I've never seen it. Maybe I've just been unlucky in that department.

But again this is an instance of A very strong worker and 3 halfway decent workers. I've always been a HUGE Brian Adams fan even as the Hawaiian Crush and I've always liked Bryan Clarke, and the first time I saw Kronik I thought they were great.....but you can't change reality and the reality is that they aren't great workers, passable big brawlers but not great but any stretch. They can be carried to pretty good matches but otherwise it's just gonna be a by the numbers big brawler match. So expectations for the match really shouldn't have been too high. Way higher then the match ended up being...way waaaay higher but still, so a sub par quality match while not a sure thing is definitely a possibility going into it. Plus they only faced off once....it could have been just ring rust on Kroniks behalf (had been like 7 months since they last wrestled a match) or nerves or some other reason, so I think claiming chemistry (good or bad) on one match just doesn't seem right to me.

[Tom Bombadil]

What about JR and King? I'm ashamed to say I didn't see much of either in their prime and on their own, but they seemed to work so much better as a team than either one of them has been doing since they were split up.

[alden]

I don't know if king and lawler have great chem.......Jr is one of the best announcers around.......he did great work in wcw and with people other then the king. The king did great with styles and i think is doing ok with cole. I don't think they have great chem...they are just talented workers. I don't know if ross and lawler is better then lawler and styles.

[justtxyank]

Let's also remember that their prime was a decade ago as announcers. 1998-2001ish, the Attitude era. They are both much older now. They are also much more controlled now than they ever were, the product is different that they are commentating on...

Would Jerry Lawler have been any different in 1999 if it had been Tony Schiavone next to him in the booth? I don't think so really.

[Karl_Kitsch]

And Ross and Heyman was better than any other team of that era.

[Nedew]

And Ross and Heyman was better than any other team of that era.

____ and Heyman is generally a solid combo, as is Ross and _____. They just put the two best announcers/colour guys together.

[Slim Jim]

I'd be tempted to put negative chemistry between Cole and King. Cole was fine with Tazz, and JBL. King has been fine with other play-by-play guys. Together, I find them both near unbearable. Maybe that's because they've always been supported by better partners, maybe this product is just harder to work with than even a few years ago, I'm sure other arguments could be put forward for why... but the two really turn me off Raw.

[The Shape]

John Cena and Jack Swagger :cool:

[Karl_Kitsch]

I'd be tempted to put negative chemistry between Cole and King. Cole was fine with Tazz, and JBL. King has been fine with other play-by-play guys. Together, I find them both near unbearable. Maybe that's because they've always been supported by better partners, maybe this product is just harder to work with than even a few years ago, I'm sure other arguments could be put forward for why... but the two really turn me off Raw.

Seconded. I think negative chemistry is easier to eye than positive.

[XxFutureLegend112xX]

Apologies if this has been asked before but i haven't been following this thread all that closely. But im just wondering will you be able to assign workers as having just neutral chemistry in the editor? thnx for any help :).

[masterded]

Apologies if this has been asked before but i haven't been following this thread all that closely. But im just wondering will you be able to assign workers as having just neutral chemistry in the editor? thnx for any help :).

yeah.

[TeemuFoundation]

Apologies if this has been asked before but i haven't been following this thread all that closely. But im just wondering will you be able to assign workers as having just neutral chemistry in the editor? thnx for any help :).
Yes indeed. And that's by far the best thing about the new feature. :)

[justtxyank]

Seconded. I think negative chemistry is easier to eye than positive.

Yep. It is blatantly obvious because you see workers who should have been able to produce a solid match throw up a stinker.