RoH opens developmental, Should Cult's have them?

[The Celt]

http://www.411mania.com/wrestling/news/125893/ROH-News:-ROH-Developmental,-Talent-and-Matched-Announced-For-The-Weekend-TV-Tapings,-More.htm

Ring of Honor, whom most of us would see as being Cult sized by TEW standards, have just announced the opening of a developmental fed, Pro Wrestling RESPECT, to be run by Ring of Honor School Trainer and RoH Star Delirious.

Debate.

[The Masked Orange]

TEW, by game terms, would rank ROH cult. or maybe high regional, it's a blurry line.
I real life, they are just a company, not forced to be a Cult company that can't do certain things.

Maybe cult companies should be able to offer developmental deals, but for me this does not change the game in the slightest.

[shamelessposer]

It reads to me less like a developmental promotion and more like an extension of the training school. Lots of wrestlers who wouldn't yet count as "debuted" by TEW standards will still wrestle in front of the occasional live crowd before their training is done.

[The Celt]

Pro Wrestling RESPECT has many, many roster members who have already debuted for Ring of Honor, including Ricky Reyes, Shane Hagadorn, Daizee Haze, MsChif, Alex Payne, Grizzly Redwood, "Dirty" Ernie Orisis, Pelle Primeau and "Addicted to Love" Rhett Titus. Infact the majority of the roster have been wrestling for "name" promotions for a small bit.

Thus, PWR would seem to be a legit developmental by TEW Standards.

Continue debate on updated information.

[MaxxHexx]

My opinion with TEW has always been that any company should be able to have a developmental.

Look at many of the local feds in your area, I bet there is at least two schools in your general proximity, I have three school within an hour from my house but outside of MN none of those companies have any popularity and would be called local. In the world, non-nationals have these developmentals.

The key thing is A) that in the game a developmental is a financial burden and if in the game would need to be a risk for a small company, and B) that the smaller the parent company, the slower guys will develop.

[Adam Ryland]

Ring of Honor, whom most of us would see as being Cult sized by TEW standards,

Since when have "most of you" considered ROH a Cult-sized promotion? I wouldn't say they're even close to that.

[Adam Ryland]

Look at many of the local feds in your area, I bet there is at least two schools in your general proximity, I have three school within an hour from my house but outside of MN none of those companies have any popularity and would be called local. In the world, non-nationals have these developmentals.

What do those schools have to do with this? They're not development territories, they're schools - two separate things.

[The Celt]

Youch, Ryland burns ROH.

Although I'm interested what he's makes of them having a developmental.

[Adam Ryland]

Although I'm interested what he's makes of them having a developmental.

I don't think they do have a development; nothing in the article you linked to suggests that it's going to be an actual promotion - it just appears to be occasional spot shows using ROH talent. It doesn't look like they're going to run a regular schedule, have people being called up, or have separate storylines or continuity....therefore I don't think they even qualify as a TEW promotion. It sounds more like it's just regular "dojo training" done in front of the public with some regular wrestlers on the card to draw a crowd.

[King Chono]

I don't think they do have a development; nothing in the article you linked to suggests that it's going to be an actual promotion - it just appears to be occasional spot shows using ROH talent. It doesn't look like they're going to run a regular schedule, have people being called up, or have separate storylines or continuity....therefore I don't think they even qualify as a TEW promotion. It sounds more like it's just regular "dojo training" done in front of the public with some regular wrestlers on the card to draw a crowd.

To me this feels a lot like Kensuke Office. They're not really a real promotion, but a booking agency for Kensuke Sasaki and his students. They run a show every now and then with a person from NOAH usually in the main event. They don't have their own title belts, nor do they really attempt to be taken seriously. It's more of a, "Kensuke Sasaki presents an indy show" type deal. Realistically in TEW terms, Sasaki wouldn't refuse negotiations with NOAH because he's loyal to his booking agency.

But yeah, this is basically how I view "respect". It's just "American Independent Show" that uses the same talents every time.

[The Final Countdown]

Youch, Ryland burns ROH..
If their attendance figures can be considered indicative of their popularity, he's probably right.

[shamelessposer]

Youch, Ryland burns ROH.

He's being realistic. The only Cultish thing Ring of Honor ever did was fail to support a pay-per-view deal. They have no national presence, have never sold out a big arena, and are a non-factor to anyone who isn't part of the Internet Wrestling Community. This isn't an indictment of ROH so much as a proper appraisal of the facts.

[alden]

There is no way roh is "cult" in my view......they are regional without question in my mind. I hear people say well what about FIP.......two diffrent companys that were owned operated by the same person who shared some talent. but all of that is way off topic lol

[Self]

He's being realistic. The only Cultish thing Ring of Honor ever did was fail to support a pay-per-view deal. They have no national presence, have never sold out a big arena, and are a non-factor to anyone who isn't part of the Internet Wrestling Community. This isn't an indictment of ROH so much as a proper appraisal of the facts.

What's their TV deal like? I only watch it online, so have no idea what kind of coverage they've got. Is is National? Is HDNet in many homes?

Not arguing for or against, just curious. I figured National TV was one of those things you get when you hit Cult, so (without doing research) I would have said Cult, with popularity heavily weighted towards wherever they actually run.

[Bigpapa42]

HD Net is a speciality channel, so while its technically available nationally, its not actually seen in that many homes. Kind of a unique situation.

As for the ROH "development territory", its tough to say whether that's what it is yet. Like Adam points out, the article doesn't confirm that it will be an actual promotion of its own. With a regular schedule, regular roster, storylines, titles, etc. But even if it was a full promotion of its own, I don't think the game should be changed based on it. The reality is that there will always be some "exceptions". The actual ROH promotion isn't governed by a set of "rules" the way that promotions in the games are... but promotions in the game have to be. If the rules were taken out or amended every time an exception happens, then the game likely couldn't function.

[Tempest Kane]

The school of ROH decides to put on shows in school gyms and people call it a dev terratory? lol.

[D-Lyrium]

I see PW:R, as people have said, as more like FIP than a 'development promotion' in TEW terms. Just a promotion run by the people behind RoH, starring many (most...) of RoH's regular talent, but without RoH's name attached formally.

More like a B-show/brand than a development territory.

Self: American TV stations always confuse me, but I'm pretty sure HDNet is roughly equivalent to 'MUTV' or those sorts of channels, where you have to pay seperately to get just that one channel (and from what I gather it's a fairly broad-spectrum channel, just happens to show MMA/wrestling in the evenings. So pretty similar to Sky One in terms of programming I imagine. Would YOU pay seperately just for Sky One? ¬_¬).

[LoganRodzen]

I would consider ROH to be Regional in TEW terms. I also think that the way Dojos are going to be handled in TEW10 is what this ROH 'development' - practically a school - will do. They will have the first shot at signing talent from the 'school' or Dojo. That's all that news article looks like to me.

[Krazy Killian]

I always saw HDNet as like Sentanta in England.

[Bigpapa42]

Self: American TV stations always confuse me, but I'm pretty sure HDNet is roughly equivalent to 'MUTV' or those sorts of channels, where you have to pay seperately to get just that one channel (and from what I gather it's a fairly broad-spectrum channel, just happens to show MMA/wrestling in the evenings. So pretty similar to Sky One in terms of programming I imagine. Would YOU pay seperately just for Sky One? ¬_¬).

Yeah, its a speciality channel that has to be specifically ordered (some providers have it as part of upper-level packages). Its technically general in its focus, yet its really not. ROH is the only wrestling it featues, though it does have a lot of MMA. It does have some other sports (MLS, UFL), though they are nowhere near the focus that MMA is. It has a fair amount of concerts, movies, and some travel shows. Not that much else. Its an odd channel. Worth it if it you like MMA, definitely.

[darthsiddus2]

this "territory" according to TEW terms is exactly that. its a dojo. its just a slightly advanced training center

[dvdWarrior]

Either way, pwRespect is an interesting concept. Wonder how a Cult-level promotion would do with a development promotion in TEW?

[MrOnu]

Either way, pwRespect is an interesting concept. Wonder how a Cult-level promotion would do with a development promotion in TEW?

In TEW08, it doesn't run well. You can only send people in your dev promotion that are on written contract, but you can't offer those yet. I learned it the hard way when, for the sake of trying something new, merged NOTBPW and CGC, rebranded them CFW (cult on the verge on being national; mix of both products) and sent the lower guys in their brand new dev promotion, the Stone Institute. It looked great on paper, but not such in the execution, it ended up as just another race to national before you lose all your top guys.

As for TEW2010... we will have to test it ourselves in a few weeks. :D

[Purple Cowboy]

Yeah, its a speciality channel that has to be specifically ordered (some providers have it as part of upper-level packages). Its technically general in its focus, yet its really not. ROH is the only wrestling it featues, though it does have a lot of MMA. It does have some other sports (MLS, UFL), though they are nowhere near the focus that MMA is. It has a fair amount of concerts, movies, and some travel shows. Not that much else. Its an odd channel. Worth it if it you like MMA, definitely.

We get HDNet included free with our Verizon FiOS TV subscription here in New Jersey, although I seem to miss ROH every time. Is it HDNet that also has a block of like 6 straight hours of WWE on Saturdays (basically replaying the last week)? Or am I thinking of another channel?

I do have to pay for channels like Setanta, and sometimes channels will give you the regular version for free and force you to buy a subscription to the HD channel (like MLB Network does).

[lazorbeak]

Wait, doesn't all a promotion have to do to qualify as "cult" is have some presence in two regions? I'm not saying ROH has a national presence, but they are on TV, and they do work the Tri-State and Great Lakes area, and have at least occasionally made appearances in other parts of the country. Are they the size of DAVE or USPW? No, but to me they still meet the minimum qualifications of being a "cult" promotion.

[Bigpapa42]

We get HDNet included free with our Verizon FiOS TV subscription here in New Jersey, although I seem to miss ROH every time. Is it HDNet that also has a block of like 6 straight hours of WWE on Saturdays (basically replaying the last week)? Or am I thinking of another channel?

I do have to pay for channels like Setanta, and sometimes channels will give you the regular version for free and force you to buy a subscription to the HD channel (like MLB Network does).

Don't think HD Net does any WWE programming. And they don't have a regular definition version of the channel - its HD only.

[Adam Ryland]

Wait, doesn't all a promotion have to do to qualify as "cult" is have some presence in two regions? I'm not saying ROH has a national presence, but they are on TV, and they do work the Tri-State and Great Lakes area, and have at least occasionally made appearances in other parts of the country. Are they the size of DAVE or USPW? No, but to me they still meet the minimum qualifications of being a "cult" promotion.

Even by those standards they still aren't evenly remotely close to being "cult" - it's two regions at above 41% to reach Cult, which is the equivalent to drawing over 5,000 fans as an average for a regular show. ROH biggest show ever apparently did 1,800....not even HALF the needed number.

[rajde]

I guess by your standards it would be regional. However, I feel in the current climate it is impossible for anyone besides WWE to do that, even TNA has a hard time getting around that number. Most of TNA shows that are large seem to be heavily papered. I would say to most people ROH is cult, because they run shows all over the US and even in other coutries.

[randomfreeze]

I guess by your standards it would be regional.

His standards created the parameters of the game. It doesn't matter how many places ROH run shows, that has nothing to do with their size level. They can't draw anywhere near enough people in their most popular regions to qualify as a cult promotion in TEW. That's it.

[Adam Ryland]

I guess by your standards it would be regional. However, I feel in the current climate it is impossible for anyone besides WWE to do that, even TNA has a hard time getting around that number. Most of TNA shows that are large seem to be heavily papered. I would say to most people ROH is cult, because they run shows all over the US and even in other coutries.

I'm afraid that would simply indicate that "most people" don't understand the term then - they run primarily in and around a small geographical area, and their international journeys are pretty much entirely irrelevant given that they only happen because of an unusual situation (the UK having a wrestling-specific TV channel). To be blunt, if those were the only criteria for being a Cult promotion then CHIKARA also qualify - I doubt you're going to make an argument for them too.

Simply put, it's not just that they don't qualify for Cult status on ANY criteria within the game, it's the fact that they're not even close. They're the very definition of a big regional promotion.

[oleolekid]

To be honest if anything i'd say it's TEW's definitions are screwed up, 5000 for a regular event? you must be kidding me TNA has all the signs of beingg a national product but by TEW's standards they wouldn't even be a CULT promotion seing as how TNA can barely get 1200 fans in for TV for FREE, let alone their PPV's.

And to be honest if anything the attendance is the least important aspect of wether a company is or is not a national product, after all just by being on national TV, with PPV alone is enough to make you a national product not whether or not you can get 5000 ppl in attendance everyweek for TV or what have you.

Just look at WCW, it was an International product due to it's TV reaching out but the majority of their PPV's barely outdid what WWE does for regular TV, as important as attendance is as far as making a company cult, regional, national, small or internation attendance and "importance" really does'nt mean anything, afterall a "national" fed with no TV's not a national fed it's just a real big indy to be fair.

the current TV & PPV basically your coverage is what should define the status of a fed not their attendance as it's really the TV you have that matters in most peoples mind not how many people you have in the buildings.

But thats just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

[lazorbeak]

To be honest if anything i'd say it's TEW's definitions are screwed up, 5000 for a regular event? you must be kidding me TNA has all the signs of beingg a national product but by TEW's standards they wouldn't even be a CULT promotion seing as how TNA can barely get 1200 fans in for TV for FREE, let alone their PPV's.

And to be honest if anything the attendance is the least important aspect of wether a company is or is not a national product, after all just by being on national TV, with PPV alone is enough to make you a national product not whether or not you can get 5000 ppl in attendance everyweek for TV or what have you.

Just look at WCW, it was an International product due to it's TV reaching out but the majority of their PPV's barely outdid what WWE does for regular TV, as important as attendance is as far as making a company cult, regional, national, small or internation attendance and "importance" really does'nt mean anything, afterall a "national" fed with no TV's not a national fed it's just a real big indy to be fair.

the current TV & PPV basically your coverage is what should define the status of a fed not their attendance as it's really the TV you have that matters in most peoples mind not how many people you have in the buildings.

But thats just my opinion, take it for what it's worth.

I think based on what Adam's said TNA is a cult promotion. They can get around 4-5 thousand when they leave the freaking impact zone. But based on what Adam's said they wouldn't even be close to a national level, because a national level promotion has to be able to have attendances in the 10,000s, and TNA has never been able to do that.

[oleolekid]

Actually they can't even do that, their PPV's are heavily papered and even then are like 2-3000 people, I think for the 1 show they did outside of the impact zone for Impact they may have got 1000 people but I doubt it, and that was built pretty big itself.

The thing with TEW you have a fed like TNA that has all the abilities of a "national" fed except the attendance, for that 1 thing in the game you cant sign written deals, move to a bigger network, get a second TV ect, all thing TNA could do if they wanted to.

And all that being said thats TNA, like I said WCW for their PPV's at the peak of their popularity where holding majority of the time shows the size of Raw & SD for PPV, yet they were certainly a national company hell as I said they were an international company.

[praguepride]

Actually they can't even do that, their PPV's are heavily papered and even then are like 2-3000 people, I think for the 1 show they did outside of the impact zone for Impact they may have got 1000 people but I doubt it, and that was built pretty big itself.

The thing with TEW you have a fed like TNA that has all the abilities of a "national" fed except the attendance, for that 1 thing in the game you cant sign written deals, move to a bigger network, get a second TV ect, all thing TNA could do if they wanted to.

And all that being said thats TNA, like I said WCW for their PPV's at the peak of their popularity where holding majority of the time shows the size of Raw & SD for PPV, yet they were certainly a national company hell as I said they were an international company.

TNA has none of the "abilities" of a national fed. They're cult at best. Cult with a TV show and some aging workers that are far past their prime, but they're cult if they're anything.

Hogan joining TNA was akin to Nemesis joining DaVE (just for different reasons).

[shamelessposer]

I guess by your standards it would be regional.

Don't argue economics with an economist, history with a historian, medicine with a doctor, or game mechanics with a game designer. The other guy has a much deeper knowledge of the subject than you do. This means that if you can assume to person you're speaking to isn't biased or a liar, he's going to be more right on the subject than you are nine hundred and ninety-nine times out of a thousand.

I would say to most people ROH is cult, because they run shows all over the US and even in other coutries.

People who argue that ROH is Cult also tend to argue that TNA is National or International. Even if they comprise the majority opinion, they're still wrong.

[praguepride]

Lol! TNA is anything BUT international :D (or global for that matter ;))


I'd say that WWE is the first and only global, possibly even international company in the world. I think even the WWF/WCW were just National at their high times, which using that as comparison, TNA is definitely not at WCW or WWF levels yet.

[lazorbeak]

Lol! TNA is anything BUT international :D (or global for that matter ;))


I'd say that WWE is the first and only global, possibly even international company in the world. I think even the WWF/WCW were just National at their high times, which using that as comparison, TNA is definitely not at WCW or WWF levels yet.

WCW wasn't international? WWF wasn't international?! Considering international and global are basically national + significant presence outside of the country, I'm not sure how you could seriously argue that WWE, which has had pay per views and shows in the UK that regularly rival American audiences, not to mention a huge presence in Canada, could possibly be anything lower than International.

[Donners]

TNA has none of the "abilities" of a national fed. They're cult at best. Cult with a TV show and some aging workers that are far past their prime, but they're cult if they're anything.

Hogan joining TNA was akin to Nemesis joining DaVE (just for different reasons).

Looks like you're taking your biases against their product and trying to spin them into an argument against an objective position in the game world.

Impact airs in 85 countries. Their workers are signed to long-term, binding written contracts. They have multiple TV programs. They have top-tier talent like Angle and Styles.

That is not Cult level.


Though really, it's no wonder that real-world mods are such a mess when there's views like that around.

[shamelessposer]

I'd say that WWE is the first and only global, possibly even international company in the world. I think even the WWF/WCW were just National at their high times, which using that as comparison, TNA is definitely not at WCW or WWF levels yet.

In 2000/2001 I'd say that WWF was International and WCW was National. WWF had a decade-long history of touring the UK by then, while WCW was billing its tour of Australia as a first-time thing. The impression I got was that not even WCW considered itself an international promotion at that time, but was starting to get its feet wet on an international stage.

[shamelessposer]

That is not Cult level.

National promotions don't have weekly ratings that are a stone's throw away from ECW on TNN's ratings.

[Donners]

National promotions don't have weekly ratings that are a stone's throw away from ECW on TNN's ratings.

They do when the industry is so weak. Don't forget that in 2001, Raw was getting 5.7 and Smackdown 4.9. Now they're at 3.5 and 2 respectively.

Alternatively, you can just say that the game engine cannot reflect TNA's true position.

[shamelessposer]

They do when the industry is so weak. Don't forget that in 2001, Raw was getting 5.7 and Smackdown 4.9. Now they're at 3.5 and 2 respectively.

When examining the ratings difference between ECW and TNN, try to also keep in mind that one of those shows was unadvertised and aired at 11:00 PM while the other is heavily promoted and airs in prime time. Allowing for a slump in the industry, TNA's "highest rating ever" is still only .2 higher than the best performance of a bingo hall show that had roller derby for a lead-in.

Alternatively, you can just say that the game engine cannot reflect TNA's true position.

Peculiar thing to say about a game that can be reasonably expected to emulate the ratings of almost every other wrestling promotion in history.

[Donners]

You're telling me you can get a Cult-size promotion many of the biggest names in the wrestling world, exclusive contracts for top wrestlers and widespread international coverage?

Must be playing the game very differently to me.

[Nedew]

You're telling me you can get a Cult-size promotion many of the biggest names in the wrestling world, exclusive contracts for top wrestlers and widespread international coverage?

Must be playing the game very differently to me.

"many of the biggest names in the wrestling world"" - I'm sorry, what? Ric Flair making an appearance hardly counts.

"exclusive contracts for top wrestlers" - doable in TEW2010.

"widespread international coverage" - Widespread, perhaps. But i'd have a widespread fanbase if 1 guy in Australia and 1 guy in Chile liked me. But would i be a major figure by that point?

[Donners]

"many of the biggest names in the wrestling world"" - I'm sorry, what? Ric Flair making an appearance hardly counts.

Angle, Foley, Hogan, Bischoff, Hardy, Steiner, Nash...

"exclusive contracts for top wrestlers" - doable in TEW2010.

In limited circumstances.

"widespread international coverage" - Widespread, perhaps. But i'd have a widespread fanbase if 1 guy in Australia and 1 guy in Chile liked me. But would i be a major figure by that point?

That's facetious. You wouldn't have a show which continues to screen if there wasn't a substantial audience there.

[Nedew]

Angle, Foley, Hogan, Bischoff, Hardy, Steiner, Nash...



In limited circumstances.



That's facetious. You wouldn't have a show which continues to screen if there wasn't a substantial audience there.

Ah, thought we were still talking ROH here :o Apologies.

I'd say the 'In limited circumstances' is accurate though.

[shamelessposer]

Angle

Hired because, in TEW terms, his Reptuation stat dropped too low and WWE didn't want to risk keeping him on.

Foley

A C+/B- Popularity worker at this point. It's reasonable that a Cult promotion could hire him.

Hogan

This is a "Nemesis joins DAVE" event, as has been pointed out. It's unusual, but even the Cornellverse occasionally has back story events which can't be properly duplicated in-game.

Bischoff

A suit. He's not likely to make many appearances with the company, and is said to be working more on the network than the creative side anyway. He's probably no more than a C+ popularity these days anyway.

Hardy

A B- Popularity guy with really low Reputation, by now.

Steiner

Main evented some of the worst-drawing pay-per-views of WWE's modern era. I struggle to see how his popularity is higher than C these days.

Nash...

Another C+/B- guy, and also responsible for some of the worst-drawing pay-per-views of WWE's modern era.

In limited circumstances.

Limited circumstances which TNA would fulfill.

[Sigilistic]

Angle, Foley, Hogan, Bischoff, Hardy, Steiner, Nash...


Out of those, only Angle, Hogan, and Hardy could be considered "big names" anymore. Out of those, as Shamelessposer pointed out Angle and Hardy both had/have piss-poor reputations at the time of their signings which made them more likely to work with a cult-sized fed. And to be honest, even the Hulkster has lost a substantial amount of overness. The crowd went mild for his last appearance on Raw, for their 15th anniversary. I'd put him at about B for nationwide overness, which is possible for a Cult fed to sign under the right circumstances in TEW2010.

[Donners]

Limited circumstances which TNA would fulfill.

So you are saying TNA has consistently high momentum? That is part of the criteria.

Oh, throw in Sting and Flair to that list, as well.

Incidentally, does the game simulate the drop-off in popularity that you seem to think occurs? I've not played long enough to see that happen.

[Blackman]

Sting might be their biggest name right now.

Flair has ended his career with WWE. Why come back now for an in-ring shoot? He'll probably just be a suit now, or a manager.

And Hogan is kinda overdone the 'comeback'. It's getting stale.

A shame actually. TNA had so much potiential. All ruined by awful booking and signing.

Oh well... :D

but to answer the question: Yes, if they have the money, why not? Dev's for cults ftw!

[shamelessposer]

So you are saying TNA has consistently high momentum? That is part of the criteria.

That I consider more of a chicken-or-the-egg thing. It's hard for me to personally see whether it was momentum that allowed TNA to hire Hogan or Hogan's hiring that boosted TNA's momentum.

Oh, throw in Sting and Flair to that list, as well.

Sting hasn't wrestled for a National promotion in almost a decade and Flair, much as I love him, can't exactly sell out a venue on name value anymore.

Incidentally, does the game simulate the drop-off in popularity that you seem to think occurs? I've not played long enough to see that happen.

If a worker goes long enough without exposure to a specific region, his popularity goes down in that region. I think this feature has been in place since 2005, but I could be wrong.

[Comradebot]

ROH just got their TV deal relatively recently, and financially (if I understand) have had a few issues with it.

In TEW terms, that puts them squarely in the "largish Regional" area.

That said... couldn't Cult companies NOW get developmental deals? I mean, the rich ones CAN get written contracts now. Stands to reason that if they have a child company (which is possible, I've had a Small company get one without use of the editor), then you should be able to send workers down to developmental if they're under written deals, right?

[The Celt]

Comradebot gets points for steering this back on topic and raising an interesting point; now that successful Cults can offer written contracts, wouldn't that mean they could send workers to a developmental?

[Donners]

That I consider more of a chicken-or-the-egg thing. It's hard for me to personally see whether it was momentum that allowed TNA to hire Hogan or Hogan's hiring that boosted TNA's momentum.


Ah, but it's not just Hogan. To sign ANYONE to a written contract, the company "must be going places - they must have high momentum".

Therefore, by TEW standards, if TNA is a Cult fed, then it would have to have had high momentum every single time it has signed its 45+ written contracts.

Add in their international coverage, and that is why it is not a Cult fed.

[alden]

To be blunt, if those were the only criteria for being a Cult promotion then CHIKARA also qualify - I doubt you're going to make an argument for them too.



Your are right......chikara should not be cult........they should be global.....MAKE IT HAPPEN PEOPLE lol.

[lazorbeak]

A B- Popularity guy with really low Reputation, by now.



I have to say you made a compelling case up until this point. Any mod that gave Jeff Hardy a B- in popularity on January 1, 2010, would be laughed at. His last match was dropping a main event title in the main event on one of the biggest pay per views of the year for the biggest promotion in the world. And, in your mind, that makes him just as popular as Lobster Warrior? :confused:

[The Final Countdown]

I have to say you made a compelling case up until this point. Any mod that gave Jeff Hardy a B- in popularity on January 1, 2010, would be laughed at. His last match was dropping a main event title in the main event on one of the biggest pay per views of the year for the biggest promotion in the world. And, in your mind, that makes him just as popular as Lobster Warrior? :confused:
He actually had one more match with Punk on Smackdown after Summerslam.

[ampulator]

I have to say you made a compelling case up until this point. Any mod that gave Jeff Hardy a B- in popularity on January 1, 2010, would be laughed at. His last match was dropping a main event title in the main event on one of the biggest pay per views of the year for the biggest promotion in the world. And, in your mind, that makes him just as popular as Lobster Warrior? :confused:
Considering the popularity of the WWE's workers these days, I actually think B- is a bit high for Jeff Hardy. But I digress.

[lazorbeak]

Considering the popularity of the WWE's workers these days, I actually think B- is a bit high for Jeff Hardy. But I digress.

No offense, but that's just silly. Is he an icon, famous outside the sport? No. Did he ever get the type of response that the very top 2/3 guys in the history of the business had? No. But to even make an attempt that he wasn't one of the best-known, most popular wrestlers on the planet last year is just ludicrous. He was the biggest star in the business for most of the year, and was the most searched for, twittered, and otherwise looked up guy in the sport. The reactions he got were easily the equal of a guy like Sting.

And because WWE is the biggest company in the world, they're pretty much the standard-bearer for how over someone actually is. Just because he may not be as popular outside of the business really isn't what the game is meant to measure. Again, Lobster Warrior, an upper midcarder for the #1 promotion in the C-Verse has a B-. Arguing that a mod wouldn't give Jeff at least a B+ for popularity would probably start with a frontal lobotomy.

[Genadi]

I've said it a thousand times on these forums and I'll say it again, a promotion draw power is much more important then a workers. As soon as a worker leaves WWE imo he should be taken down at least one or maybe two popularity grades to represent this.

ROH is not cult in TEW.

[thedraem41]

To me this feels a lot like Kensuke Office. They're not really a real promotion, but a booking agency for Kensuke Sasaki and his students. They run a show every now and then with a person from NOAH usually in the main event. They don't have their own title belts, nor do they really attempt to be taken seriously. It's more of a, "Kensuke Sasaki presents an indy show" type deal. Realistically in TEW terms, Sasaki wouldn't refuse negotiations with NOAH because he's loyal to his booking agency.

But yeah, this is basically how I view "respect". It's just "American Independent Show" that uses the same talents every time.

That'd be awesome to have emulated in TEW. I don't think ROH has a real developmental league. It sounds a lot like what the Inoki Dojo was, not a real promotion just gives the students matches in front of a live crowd.

Now the Kensuke Office idea is something.

[ampulator]

I've said it a thousand times on these forums and I'll say it again, a promotion draw power is much more important then a workers. As soon as a worker leaves WWE imo he should be taken down at least one or maybe two popularity grades to represent this.

ROH is not cult in TEW.
I agree with this sentiment.

[Donners]

I'm sure the idea of worker popularity being relative to promotion popularity/exposure has been brought up and dismissed before.

[Genadi]

I'm sure the idea of worker popularity being relative to promotion popularity/exposure has been brought up and dismissed before.

I don't think it's an idea I think it's a proven fact.

[Donners]

I don't think it's an idea I think it's a proven fact.

I meant as a feature in the game.

[Genadi]

I meant as a feature in the game.

I thought you did :p I wans't having a shot at you :)

[David O'Donnell]

I dunno why RoH would be regional. In my 'opinion', they would be a cult sized promotion.

They are the third biggest promotion in north america. Debatable yes but i doubt Chikara, PWG, DGUSA(a bit different i know) and others have the same exposure/drawing power/star attraction(Maybe PWG on that one).

RoH Have a weekly TV show unlike most promotions. Hell even NOAH don't have TV anymore.

They run 40(avg) full length shows per year unlike most indies.

They once again have a PPV deal(albeit an internet ppv deal)

They run shows in lots of different places in America making them more than regional and when in tri-state they usually draw better numbers than TNA do anywhere who i would consider national(just)

They have run profitable and break-even shows in Japan, England, and about 2-4 a year in Canada.

They have access to lots of national/international stars like KENTA, Marufuji, Morishima, MCMG, Homicide, Samoa Joe, Spanky, Paul London, etc

They are treated as an equal by Pro wrestling Noah

They have many workers who are definitely more than regional, some national stars. ie, Austin Aries, Colt Cabana, Jerry Lynn, Chris Hero, Davey Richards, the Briscoes, Steve Corino etc. Previously Bryan Danielson, Nigel McGuinness, CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Daniels etc

They have in my opinion, the best wrestling product on the planet.

Their World title has amazing respect/Lineage. 11 champions in 8 years.

They have a great tag division unlike WWE.

They have power/money/respect to attract Wrestling greats like Sammartino, Bret Hart, Flair, Kobashi, Liger, Misawa etc

They Don't have anyone who can't work on the roster a la WWE/TNA.

They have a decent womens division in cooperation with SHIMMER as opposed to hiring swimsuit magazine models a la WWE.

WWE/TNA love to rape them for their stars.

They Have Jim Cornette. lol

Ok, i'm ranting now but they can't be regional. Anyone agree?

[The Celt]

To be fair, nothing you've mention would impact on ROH size in TEW terms.

Amount of shows, having TV, having PPV, being the 3rd biggest...none of it in TEW terms would equal being cult. Sorry.

[ampulator]

ROH, at best, is a Regional Company in TEW terms. And that's a good thing, because Cult in TEW terms would kill ROH (and probably would kill it in real life, too).

[The Final Countdown]

I love ROH. They're far and away my favorite company to follow. Heck, one look at all the time I've put into my "ROH from the beginning" diary should tell you how much I enjoy their product. But they are absolutely a Regional company in TEW terms.

[lazorbeak]

I dunno why RoH would be regional. In my 'opinion', they would be a cult sized promotion.

Did you read the rest of the thread? The CREATOR OF THE GAME says it would be regional.

They are the third biggest promotion in north america. Debatable yes but i doubt Chikara, PWG, DGUSA(a bit different i know) and others have the same exposure/drawing power/star attraction(Maybe PWG on that one).

Being the third biggest doesn't make it cult, especially since TNA should be at cult, having never held a show with an attendance greater than around 3-4 thousand.

RoH Have a weekly TV show unlike most promotions. Hell even NOAH don't have TV anymore.

In TEW regional promotions can hold TV deals, especially on small networks.

They run 40(avg) full length shows per year unlike most indies.

# of shows =/ popularity. As Adam said, they've never drawn nearly enough to be cult sized.

They once again have a PPV deal(albeit an internet ppv deal)

They had a pay per view deal and it was a pretty serious failure.

They run shows in lots of different places in America making them more than regional and when in tri-state they usually draw better numbers than TNA do anywhere who i would consider national(just)

Well if it's any consolation you'd be wrong about TNA being national as well.

They have run profitable and break-even shows in Japan, England, and about 2-4 a year in Canada.

Shows held outside your home country have no affect on regional vs. cult determinations.

They have access to lots of national/international stars like KENTA, Marufuji, Morishima, MCMG, Homicide, Samoa Joe, Spanky, Paul London, etc

None of whom are top stars in terms of popularity, especially at the times they were on the ROH roster.

They are treated as an equal by Pro wrestling Noah

If they drew the same crowds they'd be at the same level, too.

They have many workers who are definitely more than regional, some national stars. ie, Austin Aries, Colt Cabana, Jerry Lynn, Chris Hero, Davey Richards, the Briscoes, Steve Corino etc. Previously Bryan Danielson, Nigel McGuinness, CM Punk, Samoa Joe, Daniels etc

Only Punk and Joe are national stars, and only since they left ROH. The rest of these guys are up and comers (except Lynn), but exactly zero of them are "national stars." Cabana was a jobber on national TV, and Lynn was a midcarder on TV what, 8 years ago? If you think any of them would be over D+ in popularity even in the tri-state or great lakes area, you're kidding yourself.

They have in my opinion, the best wrestling product on the planet.

Unfortunately product has no affect on popularity.

Their World title has amazing respect/Lineage. 11 champions in 8 years.

Again, a completely unrelated issue.

They have a great tag division unlike WWE.

Again, how could this possibly make them cult level?

They have power/money/respect to attract Wrestling greats like Sammartino, Bret Hart, Flair, Kobashi, Liger, Misawa etc

They bring in non-wrestlers for the occasional one-off appearance: again, most of this can be done at regional level in TEW.

They Don't have anyone who can't work on the roster a la WWE/TNA.

Again, the issue is they're not popular enough, and they're not.

They have a decent womens division in cooperation with SHIMMER as opposed to hiring swimsuit magazine models a la WWE.

TNA has a great women's division but it doesn't sell out huge arenas.

WWE/TNA love to rape them for their stars.

They recruit talent and help get them recognized, but can't keep their own guys. Sounds like a pretty realistic problem for a regional fed to have.

They Have Jim Cornette. lol

Ok, i'm ranting now but they can't be regional. Anyone agree?

Yes, they can, and no, no one agrees. As Adam already said, they're just not big enough right now. They may be getting to a position where they can survive a cult transition, but right now they don't draw the numbers you need to be considered cult.

But since you mistakenly think TNA is a national promotion (TCW is barely national and can easily pull 5K for its TV shows, while TNA's best drawing pay per views were around 5K), it's clear you don't have a really solid understanding of quite how huge the gap between WWE and every other wrestling company really is.

[Donners]

But since you mistakenly think TNA is a national promotion (TCW is barely national and can easily pull 5K for its TV shows, while TNA's best drawing pay per views were around 5K), it's clear you don't have a really solid understanding of quite how huge the gap between WWE and every other wrestling company really is.

There is clearly a gap in drawing power, but in a business sense, TNA does mimic the behaviour and structure of national - and larger - promotions in the game through its written contracts, international and local TV deals, multiple shows, roster and so forth.

[James Casey]

Ok, i'm ranting now but they can't be regional. Anyone agree?

With the exception of Jim Cornette and the Japanese stuff, I was able to achieve virtually every single one of the criteria you've mentioned at Regional with MAW.

ROH are regional - they can't draw big enough crowds anywhere to be considered anything bigger. In TEW terms, you should be looking to consistently pull 2-3,000 paying fans in two or more regions to qualify as Cult. No American company outside of WWE even comes close: TNA can't even do that in their home region, as I understand it. A lot of their shows were still filled out with freebies, last I heard.

ROH put on a great show, but they're not popular enough to be anything more than a highly respected Regional fed - in TEW terms.

[Blackman]

It's called 'regional', but that doesn't mean the promotion is only known in their own 'region'.

I'm from Belgium, and like so many wrestling fans here, we heard from ROH. I even bought some DVD's etc. ROH would have 0 popularity here, but it's not always the case. If I lived in the C-Verse, I'd love CZCW as well. But it does have 0 pop in Europe. If they were to hold a show here, though, I'd think of at least 50 people who'd show up regardless, instead of the 7-8 in TEW. But these are just details.

Lots op people love their product. But they are just not that popular to be considered a BIG phenomonon. Sometimes promotions achieve a 'cult' status and are loved by the crowd even though they are not that well known.

Think ROH, think ECW. Imo these should be considered 'cult'. In TEW, they would bleed to death in a few months though. And ROH will probably survive for a lot more years. But they DO have a PPV deal at regional.

[Remianen]

Ok, i'm ranting now but they can't be regional. Anyone agree?

No one with sense does.

To be fair, nothing you've mention would impact on ROH size in TEW terms.

Amount of shows, having TV, having PPV, being the 3rd biggest...none of it in TEW terms would equal being cult. Sorry.

ROH, at best, is a Regional Company in TEW terms. And that's a good thing, because Cult in TEW terms would kill ROH (and probably would kill it in real life, too).

I don't think David even considered this.

One of the things that come with being Cult is increased costs. Those costs are balanced by the increased revenues you stand to bring in at that size (relative to Regional). Now, if you aren't careful and haven't spent time at Regional building a war chest, those costs can kill you. Right now, I don't think ROH is pulling in the cash necessary to deal with Cult level costs.

But it's always fun when people interject their myopic opinions and try to pass them off as fact. As anyone here knows, I'm a bit of a fan of women's wrestling and those things on David's list mean jack and squat (and jack bailed six months ago). Women's wrestling outside of Japan in the 90s has not proven to be a draw. At all. It's good for a change of pace or adding a new wrinkle to a 'next gen' type of product (as TNA is proving to an extent) but that doesn't make it a draw. And trying to pass off SHIMMER Showcase matches as a "real" women's division is beyond laughable. Let's be real here.

Did you read the rest of the thread? The CREATOR OF THE GAME says it would be regional.

Pfft, what does Adam know? :p Sure he designed it but come on! ROH puts on 40 shows a year and NOAH treats them as an equal and even Prazak can work! And Bruno Sammartino could work in WWE if he wanted (:rolleyes: ) but he chose ROH. That proves they're Cult! :rolleyes:

[David O'Donnell]

Fair enough

[D16NJD16]

I hope 2010 just sticks to getting how global and national promotions are run correct before getting into any cult promotions development territories.

[James Casey]

Apparently not :p

Written (and therefore development) deals at Cult will still be pretty rare, I guess.

[Blackman]

I hope 2010 just sticks to getting how global and national promotions are run correct before getting into any cult promotions development territories.

I'm thinking the C-verse won't have any 'cult' dev territories. Can't think of any promotion that would. :p So the game will still function well, I guess.

But hell, even SHIMMER seems to have a dev territory or training school of some kind (dojo?). And they aren't even regional imo. XD

[Jaded]

I'm thinking the C-verse won't have any 'cult' dev territories. Can't think of any promotion that would. :p So the game will still function well, I guess.

USPW without a developmental territory? Man... that would suck! :(

[Comradebot]

USPW without a developmental territory? Man... that would suck! :(

Developmental territory tends to mean workers under 50, whom we all know aren't elligible to work for USPW.

[foolinc]

USPW without a developmental territory? Man... that would suck! :(

Crazy thought that probably isn't going to happen. Rip dies and becomes the developmental fed for USPW.

[Bigpapa42]

Developmental territory tends to mean workers under 50, whom we all know aren't elligible to work for USPW.

Are you telling me that Giant Redwood couldn't use a spell in development?

Actually, come to think of, I think he might make an awesome trainer. "Everything I do, do the opposite."

[thedraem41]

Are you telling me that Giant Redwood couldn't use a spell in development?

Actually, come to think of, I think he might make an awesome trainer. "Everything I do, do the opposite."

Haha nice..Redwood needs to spend some more time at a Dojo.

[MrOnu]

Resurection of the USPW school with Redwood as the head trainer. I totally dig that.

[Jennie Bomb]

Crazy thought that probably isn't going to happen. Rip dies and becomes the developmental fed for USPW.
USPW is going to use Rip's corpse as a developmental fed?

[BurningHamster]

USPW is going to use Rip's corpse as a developmental fed?

This made me laugh WAY more than it should have.

[bak42]

Developmental territory tends to mean workers under 50, whom we all know aren't elligible to work for USPW.

Unless you're the boss's daughter.

[BuddyGarner]

In TEW it's easy to go from National to Global. Maintaining the national criteria is the hardest part. In TEW terms you could be D overness in every single location in the world but still only be regional(higher than that due to importance).