TNA Cult or National?

[Genadi]

I didn't want to choke up Jimmy's mod thread with this discussion but think it's an important one to have. :)

Then you agree that they should be listed as National, with limitations in place to keep their ratings and attendances realistic?

I'm not sure tbh, I honestly haven't tried this mod yet so it's hard to say what I think would need changing. When you change one thing in a mod it can effect alot of different things you don't expect, I'm sure Jimmy knows this he's been on this mod for a good year now.

I'd have to really test and know alot about a mod to make a decision like that.

Because no amount of mod tweaking - unless you make everybody in the database a friend of somebody on the TNA roster AND put on a string of absolutely awesome shows AND give them a lot of money - will allow the user to sign anybody to written contracts with TNA at Cult level.

That's not true, I noted just a few of the reasons workers won't sign written deals at Cult. The big names TNA signed on written deals were all a little unique in their own way....

Sting, stated many times he signed and resigned out of personal loyalty to the Jarretts (plus his contract was big money for his schedule).

Kurt Angle, His popularity takes a hit as a result of his drug scandal , he's suspended, walks out on WWE and has a falling out with Vince. He's extremely driven and heads to Japan for a stint but then is lured back to the US, only after a big money contract (Including a main event title run and CC) from TNA.

Both of those scenarios are reflected in TEW very well and would play out almost identically most times with a good mod. Saying that though....

The one that does stand out is Hogan, I'd say at the lowest his popularity could be set at B+. I'm not sure if a Cult promotion could sign a name that big under any circumstances? Maybe the Hulk signing signifies TNA's jump to National in TEW?

What this thread needs is some Ryland insight :p

[Tempest Kane]

Its most certainly a National company, National TV, House shows... PPVs...

The question at this point ... is it international ? has TV & PPV deals across the world, tours world wide (or atleast half as much as WWE does), and it has talent that has global popularity in large number since the january 4th.

Do they draw National numbers? No... live attendance isnt even close... so in TEW terms? i dono.

[Gigas]

TNA is cult. Under Donners logic, USPW should be national because they have "Hulk Hogan."

[sabataged]

TNA is cult. Under Donners logic, USPW should be national because they have "Hulk Hogan."

This is a touchy subject that has happened the last couple of years to be honest.

I have got into several debates on this subject. I think they are National in terms of TEW. All though they are about on the same level as ECW and they were never considered National either.

I say national because they run some house shows, have guys signed to written deals where they can't just show up in WWE, run ppv's, and a national TV show.

[Mr.Macho]

National, its the only way you can play the company realistically.

[Basmat01]

How many guys have written Deals with them? Most of the midcard and undercard still do work the indys to make ends meet

To me 4 guys on written deals doesnt make them a national company. they would be on the high end of Cult minimum

[Gigas]

The maker of the game said TNA was cult in TEW terms so Im not sure why its being argued still.

[Genadi]

It's being discussed not argued, quite well so far to I might add some good points raised on both ends.

I can't remember Adam saying anything about them being at Cult lately or since the Hogan signing anyway. I personally think at the high end of Cult like Basmat said but I think the discussion should be had to help not just mod makers but players understand the logic.

[Scorpio3060]

How many Cverse cult promotions start with guys on written deals?

All of them.

[Donners]

That's not true, I noted just a few of the reasons workers won't sign written deals at Cult. The big names TNA signed on written deals were all a little unique in their own way....

Sting, stated many times he signed and resigned out of personal loyalty to the Jarretts (plus his contract was big money for his schedule).

Kurt Angle, His popularity takes a hit as a result of his drug scandal , he's suspended, walks out on WWE and has a falling out with Vince. He's extremely driven and heads to Japan for a stint but then is lured back to the US, only after a big money contract (Including a main event title run and CC) from TNA.

Both of those scenarios are reflected in TEW very well and would play out almost identically most times with a good mod. Saying that though....

The one that does stand out is Hogan, I'd say at the lowest his popularity could be set at B+. I'm not sure if a Cult promotion could sign a name that big under any circumstances? Maybe the Hulk signing signifies TNA's jump to National in TEW?

What this thread needs is some Ryland insight :p


Put aside the big names. I'm talking about the ability to sign ANY worker to a binding written contract.

TNA has done this for years, pulling workers from RoH (and almost all other indi feds these days) and, most importantly, keeping them out of reach of WWE.


This is the crucial point. This is a key element of portraying TNA accurately.

In real life, whether they are re-signing a worker or signing a new one, they can sign them to what is in TEW a written contract - something that prevents other promotions from being able to steal them for a set period.

If TNA is a Cult fed, they cannot do that except in extremely limited circumstances.

Therefore, if TNA is in as a Cult fed, they are not being accurately represented.

It is then a challenge for the modmaker to balance TNA as a national fed to keep their ratings and attendances realistic.




Your own mod has TNA in April 2002, without even a single show to its name, at Cult level (albeit a low Cult level). Do you think that after all the progress they have made in a business, production and exposure over eight years, they should be at exactly the same level?


How many guys have written Deals with them? Most of the midcard and undercard still do work the indys to make ends meet

To me 4 guys on written deals doesnt make them a national company. they would be on the high end of Cult minimum


Virtually all. You think WWE could steal all but four members of the TNA roster whenever they want? Ludicrous.

TNA release some of the lower wrestlers to work indy feds, but that does not mean they cannot bar them from doing so - as they showed with RoH. Contracts IRL don't work exactly like those in TEW, you know...

Styles and Morgan are on five-year deals, Angle one year, Roode and Storm four years, Anderson one year, Joe several years, Nash one year, ODB several and probably the same through the vast majority of the roster. Only those at the very low end would be on non-binding agreements.

The most notable recent examples of people leaving TNA to go to WWE - Gail Kim and Christian - came at the expiry of their contracts.

How many Cverse cult promotions start with guys on written deals?

All of them.


True, but we know for a fact that TNA can continue to sign ANY worker (who is not already under an exclusive deal elsewhere) to a written contract IRL. Playing them realistically requires that ability from the start of the game.

How many C-verse Cult promotions air in the US, Canada, UK and Australia?

[rajde]

By What Adam has explained the perameters. ROH wouldn't even be cult. From my understanding you need 5000 to get around a C. TNA can't draw that well. I doubt they are even close to National. They are Cult.

[Gigas]

I have had absolutely no problem signing workers to writen contracts in USPW. Just put more points in the negotiation skills. I havent signed any super over guys, but Samoan Machine and Umaga signed written deals with me, as did Carl Batch, Andre Jones, Sara York and Eugene Williams. And those are the only 6 people Ive signed.. all to written.

[ChrisKid]

It's got to be national

[Mr.Macho]

Most of the roster are on written deals, id say 70%?

[Genadi]

Put aside the big names. I'm talking about the ability to sign ANY worker to a binding written contract.

TNA has done this for years, pulling workers from RoH (and almost all other indi feds these days) and, most importantly, keeping them out of reach of WWE.


This is the crucial point. This is a key element of portraying TNA accurately.


I agree this is the crucial point but it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound, in fact it's quite a hazy line. TNA don't have he ability to sign ANY worker to a written deal.

Let's take a guy like Nash for example, a guy I'd say around a C+ to B- in pop. For years (I'm unsure about atm) his contract in TNA has been an insiders joke generator... CC, Excl PPA but the ability technically to walk out and show up on RAW a night after going over on a TNA PPV.

The press conference might read Hulk Hogan written contract but I guarantee there's about 100 "Get out" clauses that wouldn't be in a WWE contract, that's been the crucial reason Hogan wouldn't sign with Vince he didn't want to be tied up to a company and give them the rights to his (C), even a company the size of WWE.

Contracts especially in pro wrestling are a very grey area.

Therefore, if TNA is in as a Cult fed, they are not being accurately represented.


I disagree, I already explained why it depends on loads of other things.

Your own mod has TNA in April 2002, without even a single show to its name, at Cult level (albeit a low Cult level). Do you think that after all the progress they have made in a business, production and exposure over eight years, they should be at exactly the same level?


Adam has explained this loads of times, just because they're Cult in '02 and Cult in '10 doesn't mean they haven't grown. A jump from Cult to National is sometimes a 2.0% rise in popularity. In the '02 mod look closeley at TNA's pop, it's set so they are at the bare miminum of Cult, a few bad shows and they're Regional. That's not the case now, in fact a few great shows and they could be National. It should be noted though I think... TNA's growth has been a very gradual grind and they haven't seen their draw power increase substanially even with some huge signings.

I made them Cult in the '02 mod for many different reasons, mainly because it fit in with the rest of the mod and ran the best in tests without having to jeopardize other areas.

[Donners]

I agree this is the crucial point but it's not as cut and dry as you make it sound, in fact it's quite a hazy line. TNA don't have he ability to sign ANY worker to a written deal.

Let's take a guy like Nash for example, a guy I'd say around a C+ to B- in pop. For years (I'm unsure about atm) his contract in TNA has been an insiders joke generator... CC, Excl PPA but the ability technically to walk out and show up on RAW a night after going over on a TNA PPV.

I don't know what that was based on, because Nash was only in negotiations with WWE towards the expiry of his contract in October 2008. He refused their offer and signed a one-year deal with TNA (which was again extended in October 2009).

But they can get the likes of Angle, Styles, Joe and co exclusively, and can force WWE to wait until the end of contracts to be able to try and take them. That is a very key part of running a fed in TEW, I think.

The press conference might read Hulk Hogan written contract but I guarantee there's about 100 "Get out" clauses that wouldn't be in a WWE contract, that's been the crucial reason Hogan wouldn't sign with Vince he didn't want to be tied up to a company and give them the rights to his (C), even a company the size of WWE.

Contracts especially in pro wrestling are a very grey area.

Undoubtedly, but those factors can't be put into a TEW contract. We are left with a fairly black & white situation, and I think the emphasis should be on the ability to protect against the stealing of workers - namely, a TEW written contract.

I haven't even made that much of a deal about Hogan, it's more the issue of having somebody like Joe, Daniels, Styles etc have their contract expire, and suddenly be unable to protect them from WWE just because I had a few bad shows and lost momentum, and thus lose my exception to the rule.

Adam has explained this loads of times, just because they're Cult in '02 and Cult in '10 doesn't mean they haven't grown. A jump from Cult to National is sometimes a 2.0% rise in popularity. In the '02 mod look closeley at TNA's pop, it's set so they are at the bare miminum of Cult, a few bad shows and they're Regional. That's not the case now, in fact a few great shows and they could be National. It should be noted though I think... TNA's growth has been a very gradual grind and they haven't seen their draw power increase substanially even with some huge signings.

I made them Cult in the '02 mod for many different reasons, mainly because it fit in with the rest of the mod and ran the best in tests without having to jeopardize other areas.

I said myself that they were a low-level Cult fed in your mod.

My point was that their business reach is far beyond what it was then. Back in the weekly PPV days, they probably wouldn't have had the same binding contracts (and lost workers hand-over-fist). Nor did they have the worldwide distribution that they have now.

If they are at Cult then and now, that growth in business power is not really reflected. It's a change in drawing power, but still bound by the limitations of being at Cult level.

[FINisher]

Very low Cult with lots of money and quite high momentum. TNA shouldn't be nowhere near National in any RW mod, period.

[Candyman]

Are you kidding? They're not even a high Cult. I'm not convinced they're closer to National than they are to Regional. I'll say the same thing when I explained why ROH were a solid Regional.

Internet wrestling fans have no perspective. You think because you know who TNA is, and everybody you know knows TNA, that everybody knows TNA. Trust me, the vast majority of wrestling fans have NO IDEA who or what TNA is. They think it's slang for porn. If they have heard of it, it'd be "isn't that the company that signed Pacman a couple years ago?"

If TEW's popularity was based on the internet wrestling community, TNA would be International going on Global. It's not. It's the general population, and there's no way TNA's popularity is in the 70's across the country. Not even close. They're not in the 60's, except for the Southeast. They're basically the same size as USPW, who starts out in the 50's across the country. USPW has about the same number of big names, mostly written contracts, a TV deal, they run house shows, etc. And they're Cult. So is TNA.

[gazwefc83]

They are a nationaly know company who have fans across the world, there becoming very popular in the uk at the minute, but in terms of tew i think they are cult on the verge of going national

what the mod makers should do is set up there popularity on percentages and let the game decide there size rather than putting the popularity up or down to effect the size

[Donners]

USPW have a small roster, a show on a small network which only airs in the US, no PPVs and negligible TV ratings (about 1/6 of the big two)

I'm not sure that's the best comparison.

[Derek B]

Just weighing in with some "official" guidance on the matter. :)

TNA are at cult level in TEW terms.

Don't forget, TEW is a game that applies certain rules and logic to the real world... people seem to be going "TNA has this TEW feature, the must be National" which is the wrong way of looking at it.

TNA is the very definition of a medium size cult company who are still growing. In the US (their main region) they are incapable of selling tickets to any of their big events, which is reason enough to show that they are not a National level powerhouse. It's the main one, the big one and the most logical thing to look at.

Trying to check off the things that TNA does in real life as reasons for why you should set their popularity higher is doing it backwards. Written contracts with some top guys is simply a reflection of them being the second biggest company trying to protect their assets. They're big enough (cult) to need to worry about it, but it's little more than ECW being run in a smarter way on the business side of things than it was.

House shows... TEW operates in a way that avoids schedule conflicts and in general better than the TEW04 model, which allowed workers to work house shows on a PPA deal. And sign written contracts at almost any level... if we were playing that game, the argument would be trying to set the percentage that TNA would be at, which would be nowhere near the 75% needed to be near National. It would be somewhere around 60% at best.

TNA has an international presence thanks to their TV deals, but so does almost every TV show in the world now. Doesn't mean they have huge levels of popularity. The UK is just happy to see wrestling at times... and Europe is the same. The Hulkamania tour in Australia pretty much shows that they are in the same boat... the numbers are misleading in many ways as to the strength of TNA's popularity in any international market. Most WWE fans couldn't even tell you that TNA exists, let alone know anything about them. That is LOW level popularity at best... and should be reflected in the TEW stats.

If you try to make a mod where any company can match up their real life numbers with their TEW numbers, you're going to have to make TNA about an 80% across the UK. WWE probably needs to be 100%... and those numbers don't make any logical sense in TEW.

So in short, TNA is a cult level company with some overness internationally... but they are NOT as big as many mods are likely to put them. :)

[Gigas]

USPW have a small roster, a show on a small network which only airs in the US, no PPVs and negligible TV ratings (about 1/6 of the big two)

I'm not sure that's the best comparison.

USPW pulls 1.xx ratings, the same or better than TNA pulls on their tv show, which is also aired on some small network. Roster size doesnt matter one bit imo.

And the PPV thing doesnt really matter since USPW can easily land a PPV deal, and can probably land a PPV deal in Japan with Jade237 ftm.

[gazwefc83]

I believe ur spot on derek, i believe to may people work backwards when it comes to popularity in there mods, the size of a company should be determind by there popularity percentages not adjusting there popularity so it makes them the size they believe they should be

[Donners]

USPW pulls 1.xx ratings, the same or better than TNA pulls on their tv show, which is also aired on some small network. Roster size doesnt matter one bit imo.

The TEW ratings system is different to the one used IRL, so that's hardly a compelling point.

Indeed, according to the "Ratings Explained" box, the IVR is calculated on one whole point per 50,000 viewers.

Since Impact gets 1.8 million viewers, that would be a rating of 36, so that's not much of a comparison...


If those with knowledge of the game's workings declare that TNA is indeed Cult, then so be it. I just hope that mod makers give them the same attributes which allow USPW to sign at least mid-range workers to written deals.

[Gigas]

If those with knowledge of the game's workings declare that TNA is indeed Cult, then so be it. I just hope that mod makers give them the same attributes which allow USPW to sign at least mid-range workers to written deals.

Or you could use the editor and just make it national yourself if you care that much.

[Basmat01]

Internet wrestling fans have no perspective. You think because you know who TNA is, and everybody you know knows TNA, that everybody knows TNA. Trust me, the vast majority of wrestling fans have NO IDEA who or what TNA is. They think it's slang for porn. If they have heard of it, it'd be "isn't that the company that signed Pacman a couple years ago?"


Dont know about any where else but here you cant watch WWE without TNA being promoted in someway, you go to a DVD store and TNA DVD's are right next to the WWE ones.

Truth is if they are a wrestling fan they will find TNA not because "WWE is crap or boring" or anything like that its because "THEY JUST WANT TO WATCH WRESTLING" and I do think IWC make up alot more numbers then everyone thinks.

I think a Mod maker should put TNA or any company for that matter whereever THEY think it is.

Just Sayin :rolleyes:

[MJStark]

Surely the issue with workers walking when their contract is up could be sorted by setting them as having loyalty to TNA? So the likes of AJ & Daniels wouldnt go to the WWE as they are TNA made, as it were.

[Bossman]

Are you kidding? They're not even a high Cult. I'm not convinced they're closer to National than they are to Regional. I'll say the same thing when I explained why ROH were a solid Regional.

Internet wrestling fans have no perspective. You think because you know who TNA is, and everybody you know knows TNA, that everybody knows TNA. Trust me, the vast majority of wrestling fans have NO IDEA who or what TNA is. They think it's slang for porn. If they have heard of it, it'd be "isn't that the company that signed Pacman a couple years ago?"



Stop living in the past, dude. Nowadays things are different. I'm sure most RAW watchers know about TNA as well because there have been TNA ads during RAW commercial breaks and also the first hour of the live Impact had well over 2 million viewers, so there are a lot of people who know what TNA is.

[Tempest Kane]

LOL @ Some of you people getting so angry about this.

Go step outside for a moment and let the nerd rage cool off.

Bottom line, we can all accept what is true in the real world isnt always true in terms of how the game plays.

TNA is atleast National in real life despite how many people it draws. Its even possibly International based on the tv and ppv deals and touring schedual, thats arguable, but since they DRAW there largest attendance's in the UK and NOT the USA... go figure.

As for ingame... lol... it makes it eaiser in my mind if they are National in order to have more fun with a real world mod. HOWEVER... if a mod maker wants to set it to cult... what exacly is the problem? every single person on this board should know how to edit a promotions pop... get over it.

lol @ some of you. You know who you are.

[MrCanada]

In the end of it I guess mod makers get the final say. But by far the dumbest conversation on the board in a long time. Clearly cult. Bumping them to national (or international) is just weird. TNA can barely pull 5000 people for a PPV taping anywhere in the country. At national or international they draw 10000+ for TV tapings. Not realistic.

The written deal thing? Maybe a little flaw in the game I agree, but having TNA guys not work for ROH (they still work for PWG and other indies) can be simmed with a War relationship between the two companies.

Guys in TNA get paid per appearance as well, you know on a PPA deal. The differance is (and why some people think they have exclusive deals) is that TNA contracts have clauses that prevent someone from quitting on their own accord and jumping to WWE, or appearing on any other wrestling show that has national TV or DVD distribution. Something that cant be simmed in TEW.

They are cult. All people saying other wise, get over yourself.

[gazwefc83]

Just read this it will solve all the argueing :p - http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_WWE_more_popular_than_TNA

[HHUK]

In my opinion, they're a cult popularity promotion with a national mentality.

They're expanding, they have good ideas, they're exciting.. but no matter how hard they try to expand, the steady increasing number of fans is only steady.

There's no real way to get popular and exposure fast apart from "invading" WWE and I doubt they want to start a war with a vastly bigger promotion.

[TNAfan123]

I'd say International because they have good numbers on their over sea tours they get sometimes better ratings than WWE over in I think England so I thing that you guys ae forgeting this part and just going by US but they are quite popular overseas

[Bad Collin]

No bias from TNAfan there...;)

[TNAfan123]

No bias from TNAfan there...;)

no not at all :cool: ;)

[1234]

Simple Answer i think
They are Cult if the mod maker wants to be completely accurate.
They are national if the mod maker believes they are and thinks the game will be more fun with them at national.

[The Masked Orange]

I'd say International because they have good numbers on their over sea tours they get sometimes better ratings than WWE over in I think England so I thing that you guys ae forgeting this part and just going by US but they are quite popular overseas

The only reason why TNA gets higher ratins is because more people have Bravo then have Sky Sports.

If you look at UK PPV buy rates for TNA, they are nil, if you look at merchandise sales, they are measly when compared to the WWE, and if you ask somebody in the UK about wrestling, if they have any answer it will most probably be WWE/WWF.

[TNAfan123]

The only reason why TNA gets higher ratins is because more people have Bravo then have Sky Sports.

If you look at UK PPV buy rates for TNA, they are nil, if you look at merchandise sales, they are measly when compared to the WWE, and if you ask somebody in the UK about wrestling, if they have any answer it will most probably be WWE/WWF.

Oh ok see I didnt know that more people had the channle TNA was on

[jesterx7769]

I would say cult but obviously with a national tv deal, and I dont think they should be far from National, idk what the required letter grades are off the top of my head but if you need C+ to be national give them C- or C

[misfit103]

I've been playing my own TNA game, and having them at the lower end of national always seems to sim properly. They have major television, PPVs and house shows. Recently, they've signed some HUGE names, which I think signals the push into a larger national company. The numbers they pull are bigger than ECW was, and are actually close to what WCW was towards the end of 2000/2001.

Also, EVERY WORKER is on a written contract. TNA has the rights to their indy bookings, and they allow them to work indy shows because the TNA schedule is much lighter. They still have the ability to say they can't work in certain areas, and they can never go to WWE. I've never understood why so many people think that they're all just working per-appearance. Yes, many are paid per-appearance, but they can't leave TNA to go work elsewhere.

[Donners]

Internet wrestling fans have no perspective. You think because you know who TNA is, and everybody you know knows TNA, that everybody knows TNA. Trust me, the vast majority of wrestling fans have NO IDEA who or what TNA is. They think it's slang for porn. If they have heard of it, it'd be "isn't that the company that signed Pacman a couple years ago?"


Extend that across to workers, as you logically should, and a WWE lower carder would be given more popularity than AJ Styles and Samoa Joe.

I've seen mods try that sort of thing, and it plays very badly, especially when Kurt Angle outright refuses to lose to Styles.



Guys in TNA get paid per appearance as well, you know on a PPA deal. The differance is (and why some people think they have exclusive deals) is that TNA contracts have clauses that prevent someone from quitting on their own accord and jumping to WWE, or appearing on any other wrestling show that has national TV or DVD distribution. Something that cant be simmed in TEW.


Right, it can only be reflected in a written deal in TEW. The protection is the key element.


If you look at UK PPV buy rates for TNA, they are nil

Er...the UK doesn't HAVE buy rates. TNA PPVs aired free on Bravo until this year, as did most WWE PPVs.

[MrCanada]

Extend that across to workers, as you logically should, and a WWE lower carder would be given more popularity than AJ Styles and Samoa Joe.



Thats the ultimate argument right there. Mike Knox is known by more people then AJ Styles and AJ Styles is the champion of TNA.

TNA has, I cant think of the word.... a cult like fanbase? the 1.0 they drew FOREVER who know AJ and go to the shows and pop for him more then Val Venis... much as RVD would be way over in ECW compared to Val Venis back in the day. Didnt make ECW a national promotion. They've gotten a bit of a bump thanks to Hogan, but I still think the extra .4 they are getting (in the states) is more people from the internet who are interested to see if TNA will change, but will slowly go away if they keep this path. But thats a different arguement and thread.

[BuddyGarner]

You can have tons of overness everywhere in the world but if you don't have the home territory importance than you are not national in TEW terms.

TNAs low turnout could be accounted for by bad economy and industry also.

And there are a lot of things that TEW just can't sim.

[Donners]

Thats the ultimate argument right there. Mike Knox is known by more people then AJ Styles and AJ Styles is the champion of TNA.

TNA has, I cant think of the word.... a cult like fanbase? the 1.0 they drew FOREVER who know AJ and go to the shows and pop for him more then Val Venis... much as RVD would be way over in ECW compared to Val Venis back in the day. Didnt make ECW a national promotion. They've gotten a bit of a bump thanks to Hogan, but I still think the extra .4 they are getting (in the states) is more people from the internet who are interested to see if TNA will change, but will slowly go away if they keep this path. But thats a different arguement and thread.

Fine, but on that basis, someone like Matt Morgan, Elijah Burke or Brian Kendrick should go straight to the top of TNA. In reality, they don't.

Unless the game implements a promotion-specific popularity rating for workers, we have to work within that - and having all WWE workers at substantially higher levels than TNA ones just doesn't work well.

I've seen people try to get around that by having TNA workers with high popularity in the home region and low elsewhere, which just causes all sorts of problems when you try to have shows outside that region.

[lazorbeak]

Just played through a month of TEW in the C-verse, and I saw that USPW drew 10,000 fans to their monthly show. Which is to say, about 6,000 more fans than TNA has ever managed to assemble in one building at one time. Literally every factor that has been cited in defense of "TNA should be national" also applies at the cult level: you can sign guys to written contracts, you can run house shows, you can have an international presence... but a relatively high level cult promotion can put 10,000 paying fans in the audience at their big shows. A national promotion can get 5 to 10 thousand fans at a TV taping. TNA cannot do any of that. They're not even close.

In my mind, they're not even at USPW's level where they're close to national level popularity in a few markets. TNA is only barely through that part at cult level where you're losing money hand-over-fist because you have significant costs but struggle to get the attendance or buyrate figures that an established cult promotion can get.

People pushing for TNA to be national need to get some perspective. Would anyone argue that WCCW was a national or international sized promotion? I don't think so, but at the peak of their popularity and in the middle of the wrestling boom of the mid-80's they were able to draw crowds of over 30,000 fans. I realize we're not in the middle of a huge boom in the wrestling industry, but TNA has never even approached a number like that in any region of the country at any time in its existence. Even with the industry not in a great place, WWE still has attendance figures of around 15K for each pay per view, while TNA's pay per views have been done at their TV taping venue where they can't even get 1500 people to show up. A national promotion wouldn't have that problem. A promotion on the verge of going national wouldn't, either.

Until TNA is a touring wrestling promotion that can turn a profit without having its 3 shows a month and several of their contracts subsidized, they are not even that close to being a national level promotion in TEW terms.

[lazorbeak]

Fine, but on that basis, someone like Matt Morgan, Elijah Burke or Brian Kendrick should go straight to the top of TNA. In reality, they don't.

Wait, what? Morgan was featured on WWE TV for how many minutes? 10? He was one of Paul Heyman's monsters at Survivor Series and had a stuttering gimmick. He was never over in WWE, so why would he immediately be a top guy in TNA? Burke was on a handful of ppvs two years ago and got his biggest push on a B-show. Kendrick might have been relatively over at one point in WWE but he was completely buried for months leading to his departure, jobbing to Jerry Lawler on TV before he left.

On the other hand, Mr. Kennedy and Sean Morley both win matches on PPV and are treated like upper-tier guys despite having accomplished nothing in the company, because both were at some point relatively over in WWE. So yeah, the reality is, a WWE jobber to the stars like Morley is more well-known than 2/3 of TNA's roster.

I've seen people try to get around that by having TNA workers with high popularity in the home region and low elsewhere, which just causes all sorts of problems when you try to have shows outside that region.

If you're having shows outside of TNA's home region you're not accurately simulating TNA anyway, so how is that a real issue? Just like TNA, you'd have to grow your worker's popularity in regions that haven't actually seen them to the point that you could convince a paying audience in any state that wasn't Tennessee, Georgia or Florida that AJ Styles is as good as Kurt Angle.

[RayW]

Er...the UK doesn't HAVE buy rates. TNA PPVs aired free on Bravo until this year, as did most WWE PPVs.
I think this is the point he was trying to make. WWE is now at a state of popularity in the UK that almost EVERY Pay-Per-View is now on Sky Box Office (a PPV Service). TNA's PPV's were recently dropped by Bravo.

The truth is that no one outside of the IWC in the UK know, or care, about TNA.

WWE stars are frequently featured on shows such as The Paul O'Grady Show, This Morning, etc. over here, when they are on tour. TNA wrestlers are featured on nothing.

Hell, Bravo is the only channel I've seen actually advertise TNA. WWE is advertised across all the Sky channels, and on several National Radio Stations (see Capital FM, Absolute Radio, etc.).

[MrCanada]

If you're having shows outside of TNA's home region you're not accurately simulating TNA anyway, so how is that a real issue? Just like TNA, you'd have to grow your worker's popularity in regions that haven't actually seen them to the point that you could convince a paying audience in any state that wasn't Tennessee, Georgia or Florida that AJ Styles is as good as Kurt Angle.

Every argument FOR TNA being national comes off very "because, I like it!"... Every argument for it staying cult or being cult seems very knowledgeable.

[olympia]

one possible compromise - is to have 2 different mods. one with TNA at Cult, so you can continue to build it and improve popularity around the country. The other with it already at National. Each can play the game they think is best suited. Of course that means extra work for someone to duplicate it that way.

I think it also deserves some decent popuarlity marks in Japan where they tour and run joint shows.

[masterded]

one possible compromise - is to have 2 different mods. one with TNA at Cult, so you can continue to build it and improve popularity around the country. The other with it already at National. Each can play the game they think is best suited. Of course that means extra work for someone to duplicate it that way.

I think it also deserves some decent popuarlity marks in Japan where they tour and run joint shows.

This is like the easiest game to edit. Just find the Mod that has it the closest to what you want and just edit it yourself.

[MrCanada]

This is like the easiest game to edit. Just find the Mod that has it the closest to what you want and just edit it yourself.

I never understood why mod makers got mad at olympia's type of remarks until I made data myself. Why should any mod maker create TWO data's to appeal to anyone?

Most mod makers are about accuracy, not fantasy (hence real world) if others want to boost TNA to national, so be it, it can take 10 minutes of their time, but why does a mod maker need to go through the 10 minutes to do that, and the 10 minutes to upload it, and the 10 minutes to post it?

People are getting really lazy I fear. haha.

[Mr.Macho]

I think this is the point he was trying to make. WWE is now at a state of popularity in the UK that almost EVERY Pay-Per-View is now on Sky Box Office (a PPV Service). TNA's PPV's were recently dropped by Bravo.

The truth is that no one outside of the IWC in the UK know, or care, about TNA.

WWE stars are frequently featured on shows such as The Paul O'Grady Show, This Morning, etc. over here, when they are on tour. TNA wrestlers are featured on nothing.

Hell, Bravo is the only channel I've seen actually advertise TNA. WWE is advertised across all the Sky channels, and on several National Radio Stations (see Capital FM, Absolute Radio, etc.).

TNA stars are featured on Soccer AM

[shamelessposer]

Every argument FOR TNA being national comes off very "because, I like it!"... Every argument for it staying cult or being cult seems very knowledgeable.

I got into another one of these discussions right before TEW 2010 came out, so I've tried to stay out of this one, but I will say that these topics are always very educational in that they say a lot about which community members know how the game works. People who believe TNA is a cult promotion create data I will play. People who believe TNA is a national promotion create data I will not play.

[Gigas]

I got into another one of these discussions right before TEW 2010 came out, so I've tried to stay out of this one, but I will say that these topics are always very educational in that they say a lot about which community members know how the game works. People who believe TNA is a cult promotion create data I will play. People who believe TNA is a national promotion create data I will not play.

Its threads like these that make me stick to the cornellverse.

[Remianen]

In the end of it I guess mod makers get the final say. But by far the dumbest conversation on the board in a long time. Clearly cult. Bumping them to national (or international) is just weird. TNA can barely pull 5000 people for a PPV taping anywhere in the country. At national or international they draw 10000+ for TV tapings. Not realistic.

The written deal thing? Maybe a little flaw in the game I agree, but having TNA guys not work for ROH (they still work for PWG and other indies) can be simmed with a War relationship between the two companies.

Guys in TNA get paid per appearance as well, you know on a PPA deal. The differance is (and why some people think they have exclusive deals) is that TNA contracts have clauses that prevent someone from quitting on their own accord and jumping to WWE, or appearing on any other wrestling show that has national TV or DVD distribution. Something that cant be simmed in TEW.

They are cult. All people saying other wise, get over yourself.

MrCanada, the paragon of tact. :p He's right though.

I'd say International because they have good numbers on their over sea tours they get sometimes better ratings than WWE over in I think England so I thing that you guys ae forgeting this part and just going by US but they are quite popular overseas

This is absolutely absurd! 'Quite popular overseas', eh? Prove it. Show me attendances that lead a person to see this promotion as 'International' (or even 'National').

I got into another one of these discussions right before TEW 2010 came out, so I've tried to stay out of this one, but I will say that these topics are always very educational in that they say a lot about which community members know how the game works. People who believe TNA is a cult promotion create data I will play. People who believe TNA is a national promotion create data I will not play.

You know, I hadn't really paid enough attention to make this correlation, but it makes sense.


TNA is a low to mid Cult level promotion in TEW terms. End of story. You want to gibber gabber about it, feel free. That doesn't change the fact of the matter. If you think signing one person and his cronies automatically makes them go up an entire size category, prove it. Provide evidence that supports your (flimsy) argument. This is another example of why TEW should never be designed to fit the often stupid events that occur in reality. In TEW, if you put on crappy shows, you lose popularity and can lose size (standing). In reality, that doesn't happen. And just like during 08's development when all the "I only play real world" people came flooding out like ants to say the game should be changed because WWE in their poorly balanced mods fell in size all the time, this is a similar situation (though thankfully, no one seems to be asking for TEW to be changed to make TNA bigger).

Simple equation. National promotions draw X number of paying customers to TV tapings, Y to PPV events. If TNA does not draw X or more to their TV tapings and Y or more to PPV events, they are not national. Make them a Cult level promotion with 50 million dollars and call it a day.

Again, in TEW terms, TNA is not national and they certainly aren't INTERNATIONAL. "I think they have better ratings than WWE in England" counts for as much as "I think I can fly". (They don't and you can't)

[PeterHilton]

Its threads like these that make me stick to the cornellverse.

I say this a bunch too, but would pay money to have someone from the testing team do a real world mod. Just to see the stats and the way they use the new historical features.

[acidfrehley]

I didn't read all the 4 pages, but imo TNA its obviously national.

[shamelessposer]

I didn't read all the 4 pages, but imo TNA its obviously national.

Two members of the testing team, TEW game mechanics, and reality all disagree. Please read a thread before dropping a load of unfounded assumptions on it.

[PeterHilton]

I didn't read all the 4 pages, but imo TNA its obviously national.

What is this based on?

[James Casey]

Just waiting for this to be closed (not least because the same stuff was covered in the ROH thread a few weeks back, I believe :p)

[justtxyank]

I think it's clear it is cult, but I also wish the "I only play Cornellverse and anyone who plays a real world mod is a loser" would grow up and stop being such pains in the butt.

You don't like real world mods. You don't like real world mod makers. You don't like real world mod players. Great. Keep your silly contempt to yourself and stay out of threads that DEAL with real world mods. Enjoy the perfect cornellverse and stop being pains to everyone else. I guarantee you that Adam is thrilled that CV isn't the only way the game gets played because he would lose a lot of money if all the real world players left.

[Craig Edwards]

I know people keep saying that TNA is national because they have a national TV and PPV deals but in TEW at Regional you can get at a nation wide tv deal if they are a small network

[Derek B]

I say this a bunch too, but would pay money to have someone from the testing team do a real world mod. Just to see the stats and the way they use the new historical features.

I would LOVE to do a real world mod... except my depth of knowledge of the real world isn't as good as it could be. Instead, I helped to make the game and concentrate on a Cornellverse mod... it's hard to argue those and people apprecate you more. :p

Just waiting for this to be closed (not least because the same stuff was covered in the ROH thread a few weeks back, I believe :p)

I can close the thread whenever I want, but it's educational so I want people to read it. There are two obvious schools of thought and it's enlightening to see them. On one hand, there are people who see TEW features and go "TNA must be National!" and on the other there are people who look at TNA and then go to TEW and say "TNA is obviously cult".

As mentioned above, when the development team behind the game all agree that TNA is cult, it's kinda hard to argue with them. Even Mr Ryland himself said it in the ROH thread... or was that in a private discussion on the development forum... I forget. :p

[Gigas]

I think it's clear it is cult, but I also wish the "I only play Cornellverse and anyone who plays a real world mod is a loser" would grow up and stop being such pains in the butt.

You don't like real world mods. You don't like real world mod makers. You don't like real world mod players. Great. Keep your silly contempt to yourself and stay out of threads that DEAL with real world mods. Enjoy the perfect cornellverse and stop being pains to everyone else. I guarantee you that Adam is thrilled that CV isn't the only way the game gets played because he would lose a lot of money if all the real world players left.

If this was directed at my post, talk about reaching. I didnt call anyone a loser for playing real world mods. I simply said i play the CV because real world mods are always going to be based on opinion, not fact.

Where you get "hey real world players are a bunch of losers" from "This is why I play the C-Verse" is beyond me. But hey, keep making stuff up, its fun I guess.

[PeterHilton]

I would LOVE to do a real world mod... except my depth of knowledge of the real world isn't as good as it could be. Instead, I helped to make the game and concentrate on a Cornellverse mod... it's hard to argue those and people apprecate you more. :p





Could I get you to be a consultant? Like..let's say I put together a team of people interested in doing a real world mod?

Would you be willing to check in on the data and see if it works the way it's supposed to?

[justtxyank]

If this was directed at my post, talk about reaching. I didnt call anyone a loser for playing real world mods. I simply said i play the CV because real world mods are always going to be based on opinion, not fact.

Where you get "hey real world players are a bunch of losers" from "This is why I play the C-Verse" is beyond me. But hey, keep making stuff up, its fun I guess.

Who said it was directed at you? It's directed in general at the sniping that constantly goes on here between real world only / cv only players. I don't get why people have to get so bent about how real world modders make their games. Just don't play them.

[Derek B]

Could I get you to be a consultant? Like..let's say I put together a team of people interested in doing a real world mod?

Would you be willing to check in on the data and see if it works the way it's supposed to?

Sure. I often take an early look at mods, don't mind reprising that role. I wouldn't be able to do any real work on it, but looking it over and giving opinions on stats (at least at the top end) shouldn't be too hard. Fire a PM my way whenever you want/need something. :)

[PeterHilton]

Sure. I often take an early look at mods, don't mind reprising that role. I wouldn't be able to do any real work on it, but looking it over and giving opinions on stats (at least at the top end) shouldn't be too hard. Fire a PM my way whenever you want/need something. :)

I'm doing the 70s CV mod...that'll be enough for a while (although I need to PM you about some characters there too) .

I guess I just know that you and Remi are great sources of knowledge and I wonder why no one who makes a real world mod has ever come to you or anyone else on the testing team to ask for advice.

[Rone Rivendale]

It's weird that people are using WWE as an example as to why TNA isn't National. WWE are a GLOBAL fed. Saying TNA is a cult because they aren't on par with WWE is pretty ridiculous.

[MrCanada]

This is a post from the TNA discussion thread I made in comparing WWE to TNA. Someone claimed TNA could "easily" get 10,000 fans at a house show. I think it applies


No... just... no... and spell check...

By YOUR logic, TNA is bigger then WWE because WWE doesnt average 10,000 for a house show. I hate TNA fans SO much.

And I'm not a WWE fan. I like all wrestling equally (even TNA). It all has ups and downs. But why do TNA fans feel the need to always say how good they are and not just except reality?

TNA is the second biggest company in North America. correct. But are they anywhere near the level of WWE? no.

WWE TV gets 15,000 (give or take) PAID through the door. TNA TV gets 1500 FREE through the door. So TNA is 1/10th the size of WWE in that sense.

WWE house shows get 7000 I'd say on average (that could be wrong, usually its between 5000 and 9000 so) and TNA gets 500-750, call it 625. That makes them 1/11th the size of WWE.

TNA PPV gets around 35,000 buys (for their big ppvs) (and some are WAY lower then that) and WWE gets "low" 235,000 buys. So TNA is 1/6th the size of WWE there. And thats not measuring against the 1,000,000 or so that get Mania (WWE's biggest PPV) which would make TNA 1/28th the size of WWE.

All you are allowed to measure is TRUTH and FACT. This isnt Fox news with hypothetical, fantasy, & opinion.

Whether TEW terms apply or not is really the thing that should be debated. But being as this is GDS's board they do. Drawing 1500 people is cult. DEAL with it.

And dont do what typical TNA fans do and use TNA's best number vs. WWE's worst. Or just TNA's best. Sure maybe they drew 3000 to a house show once (dont know if thats true just made it up) but that doenst count.

As for all the Cornelleverse purists. I would LOVE if you checked out my data. Even if you didnt play it or like it, just look at it, maybe play a month, and tell me what I've done wrong. The only good way to get a good real world mod is to have the "smarter" TEW players correct errors.

EDIT:

Remianen... "paragon of tact"? I love sarcasm. haha.

[Ninja Turtle]

One word: Cult (but a year of good shows from National)

Parentheses don't count in my one word, right?:p

[Comradebot]

Honestly, for the most part I only play C-Verse.

But the fact of the matter is, it IS the most balanced. I'd love to play a real world mod again someday, but everytime I do something puts me off. Either there's a slew of pre-set potential (which, thankfully, is now easily fixed), workers seem poorly balanced/stat inflation, or even some of the things with the game world itself are broken, like regions having 35% importance. Oh, and some like to make everyone's performance skills a mixture of 100% or 0%. Which sucks.

DOTT was solid, and lacked most of the issues I've described, which I think can be attributed to the person who originally made it basing a LOT off of the C-Verse. Whether you like/play it or not, nothing can change the fact that the C-Verse is the database designed specifically to work with the game. If you're gonna make a real world mod, then you need to be familiar with the C-Verse in order to get a feel for what kinds of stats comparable workers/companies should be like.


And, on topic, TNA is CLEARLY a Cult company. If they were National, WWE might actually have to consider worrying about them.

[Slim Jim]

I completely agree with the TNA = cult side of the debate, but just a little insight on their numbers. Over the four nights of their Canadian house show tour at the end of December that I found attendances for, they averaged 1350. About double what you estimated for them. That was largely skewed by one 2800 show though.

[Comradebot]

This is a post from the TNA discussion thread I made in comparing WWE to TNA. Someone claimed TNA could "easily" get 10,000 fans at a house show. I think it applies



As for all the Cornelleverse purists. I would LOVE if you checked out my data. Even if you didnt play it or like it, just look at it, maybe play a month, and tell me what I've done wrong. The only good way to get a good real world mod is to have the "smarter" TEW players correct errors.

EDIT:

Remianen... "paragon of tact"? I love sarcasm. haha.

You know what?

I'll do that, right now.

[MrCanada]

I completely agree with the TNA = cult side of the debate, but just a little insight on their numbers. Over the four nights of their Canadian house show tour at the end of December that I found attendances for, they averaged 1350. About double what you estimated for them. That was largely skewed by one 2800 show though.

And Canada is a wrestle crazy nation. BSE, the top indy in Ontario, has drawn close to 1500 a couple times (albeit with Kurt Angle/Christian Cage/Lance Storm). So the arguement can still be made TNA doesnt draw much more than them. And in Canada, WWE tends to be closer to the 10,000 for a house show (if not higher, at least Ontario) and 20,000 for TV tapings at the ACC and stuff.

Canada (namely Toronto, Montreal, Edmonton) is basically like New York of the north for WWE.

Also that was the first and so far only time WWE made a trip to Canada. And I remember they had a house show in Detroit (one of their first ones) and it did good numbers, and half the crowd had driven from Toronto and Hamilton.

EDIT:

And like I alluded to. With facts and figures you have to ignore the skewed data points. Be it WrestleMania or MSG events for WWE or one off "first time ever" house shows for TNA like first time in Canada.

[Mikey_Mayhem]

Just played through a month of TEW in the C-verse, and I saw that USPW drew 10,000 fans to their monthly show. Which is to say, about 6,000 more fans than TNA has ever managed to assemble in one building at one time. Literally every factor that has been cited in defense of "TNA should be national" also applies at the cult level: you can sign guys to written contracts, you can run house shows, you can have an international presence... but a relatively high level cult promotion can put 10,000 paying fans in the audience at their big shows. A national promotion can get 5 to 10 thousand fans at a TV taping. TNA cannot do any of that. They're not even close.

In my mind, they're not even at USPW's level where they're close to national level popularity in a few markets. TNA is only barely through that part at cult level where you're losing money hand-over-fist because you have significant costs but struggle to get the attendance or buyrate figures that an established cult promotion can get.

People pushing for TNA to be national need to get some perspective. Would anyone argue that WCCW was a national or international sized promotion? I don't think so, but at the peak of their popularity and in the middle of the wrestling boom of the mid-80's they were able to draw crowds of over 30,000 fans. I realize we're not in the middle of a huge boom in the wrestling industry, but TNA has never even approached a number like that in any region of the country at any time in its existence. Even with the industry not in a great place, WWE still has attendance figures of around 15K for each pay per view, while TNA's pay per views have been done at their TV taping venue where they can't even get 1500 people to show up. A national promotion wouldn't have that problem. A promotion on the verge of going national wouldn't, either.

Until TNA is a touring wrestling promotion that can turn a profit without having its 3 shows a month and several of their contracts subsidized, they are not even that close to being a national level promotion in TEW terms.



I would argue that WCCW was light years closer to being a national or international promotion than TNA should ever be in a real world mod, even despite they are today even with their modest ratings increase since the arrival Hulk Hogan. Sure it was a different time in the wrestling business, under a different set of circumstances. Wrestling was hot, Kayfabe was still king and the internet had not come along yet with spoilers and other things had not yet occurred that no longer make wrestling must see tv. Vince McMahon had yet to also successfully brand his version of professional wrestling as the only game in town. He was moving the ball, but had not completed it yet.

Despite all this, WCCW like or like WCW with the NWO was a much much more popular promotion that had a buzz that TNA simply does not have. WCCW sold out shows wherever their workers, particularly the Freebirds and Von Erichs went. Like Gary Hart said, they didn't even have to be in the Main Event and the shows would sell out and even in other markets most of the fans signs would be Von Erich related. WCCW was also syndicated across the country as well as internationally and got huge ratings. When they did take tours to those markets they would sell out as well. The fans very rabid for World Class. Really the only thing that made World Class not a national or even international promotion was Fritz not wanting to run against the NWA until it was too late. When the Texas oil economy crashed Fritz was left with a promotion that had been marred by tragedy, and that had cut it's own legs out from under itself by refusing to expand to not depend on Texas for most of it's gates. Had they been a little smarter before WWF started to kill business in the territories and had the situation been a little different and the World Class tragedies not occurring, they could have certainly been a secondary national promotion to WWF. I think they would have probably been more successful than Crockett was even though he had his TBS Superstation franchise. They just didn't have the buzz that WCCW had during its peak. Crockett almost lost everything before Turner came around throwing money like a drunken sailor to keep WCW afloat. The AWA would have certainly been no challenger to World Class with Gagne's extreme old school philosophy. I think under obvious different circumstances for World Class and had Fritz stepped aside sooner and allowed David to do the things he wanted to do before he died, we might have been talking about a Wrestling world in the 80's and 90's were WWF was the undisputed number 1, WCCW was the distant second instead of Crockett/WCW. He would have either faded off into the sunset like World Class because talent wanted to go where the wrestling was hot. Crockett eventually bankrupted himself anyway and would have been forced to sell to someone regardless. Perhaps instead of the sale to Turner it would have been to WCCW, and they would have become synonymous with the NWA instead of WCW.

In TEW terms, I would still call WCCW a cult, so in no way should TNA even be considered a national promotion, even in a really bad economy and the pitiful period of wrestling that we are in now were new superstars are just simply not being created anymore, with maybe the exception of John Cena. Even then Cena is not the draw that his past peers were.

[lazorbeak]

My point, Mikey, is that WCCW was hugely popular, probably in the 80's in the Mid-South for TEW purposes, but still wouldn't be considered a national or international promotion for game purposes. And TNA isn't anywhere near that level of popularity anywhere.

[DaMegaFish]

I say they need to be Cult. If you compare TNA to the original data a company that is nearly on the same level is USPW as noted by others. Put the top guys on written contracts so WWE doesn't swoop in and steal them, and get WWE set to a size where they shouldn't have to go bolster their roster from the word go and you should be all set.

TNA shouldn't be higher than C popularity in most of the United States in all honesty, they have to do some camera magic at traveling PPV's to even make the arena appear semi-full. If you set them to C popularity and get their importance towards the upper part of Cult, they should be fine. You should be able to get them National by the time most the big guys contracts come up (or if you have high negotiation you might pull this anyway at cult), and if you don't your at the mercy of the WWE anyway. Hey guys, remember Christian jumping ship back to WWE after his TNA stay? Yeah, it happens. As stated before, as much as I love TNA they are very much a cult company with an national mentality, they aren't big but they produce big and act big and hope that everyone will believe they are that big.

[Genadi]

Glad I brought this up :p

FTR - Derek has revised all of my last 2 mod releases and sung their praise much to our pleasure. :) (DB, I haven't sent you '02 this year as no real changes were made to stats, however expect a MA BETA in your inbox in the next week or so)

[djthefunkchris]

I think it depends on the mod itself where you put them at. Right now, if any of the information I found is correct (googling ratings, etc.), they are getting better ratings then ever before. Looks like ECW type ratings or better, right now. Not that THAT matter's in the bigger picture.

The reason I say it depends on the mod, is because if you have a few global companies and possibly an international company or two as well, you might want to give your TNA promotion a National type deal. However, if you have no true "global" companies, and have WWE at International status, you probably want to put TNA in the cult range.

It's a matter of perspective per mod maker in my opinion. What is the game they want to create, and what are the goals for each promotion they include with the mod? Depending on the answer's to questions like this, would depend on where they put TNA in perspective to the rest of the world.

[MrCanada]

I think it depends on the mod itself where you put them at. Right now, if any of the information I found is correct (googling ratings, etc.), they are getting better ratings then ever before. Looks like ECW type ratings or better, right now. Not that THAT matter's in the bigger picture.

The reason I say it depends on the mod, is because if you have a few global companies and possibly an international company or two as well, you might want to give your TNA promotion a National type deal. However, if you have no true "global" companies, and have WWE at International status, you probably want to put TNA in the cult range.

It's a matter of perspective per mod maker in my opinion. What is the game they want to create, and what are the goals for each promotion they include with the mod? Depending on the answer's to questions like this, would depend on where they put TNA in perspective to the rest of the world.

I demand to know of these mythical global promotions. I must have blocked all information of them from showing up on my internet somehow.

[Master Gilmore]

I'm curious, does anyone think it would be accurate to qualify the WWF during the Attitude Era as a Global fed, and the current WWE as international? Or should it still be Global?

[MrCanada]

I'm curious, does anyone think it would be accurate to qualify the WWF during the Attitude Era as a Global fed, and the current WWE as international? Or should it still be Global?

I think Global. WWE has TV in every country (well the important ones, haha) and tours regularly in all regions. In the places it doenst visit as often they pull in great numbers, better then State-side house shows, because people know them.

In TEW08, a lot of mod makers made them smaller, National or International, because it was basically impossible for the computer to keep a promotion at Global (let alone National or International). But Adam has seemingly fixed that with 2010.

The Attitude era is a great example of a Global promotion (more popular then WWE would be today, but WWE is still Global) in a boom period with a strong economy. Today it is more accurately put as a Global promotion in a bust with a broken economy.

Just to "list" how I think stuff is rated. My mod I have it this way:

WWE - Global
NJPW - National
AJPW - Cult
NOAH - Cult
TNA - Cult

[Genadi]

I'm curious, does anyone think it would be accurate to qualify the WWF during the Attitude Era as a Global fed, and the current WWE as international? Or should it still be Global?

WWE is more Global now then it was in the attitude era.

[lazorbeak]

I'm curious, does anyone think it would be accurate to qualify the WWF during the Attitude Era as a Global fed, and the current WWE as international? Or should it still be Global?

In TEW terms, Global is just National + being at least cult level in another country. Considering WWE still has a very strong presence in Canada and a pretty strong presence in the UK, only a really poor mod would rate them as anything but global.

[MrCanada]

In TEW terms, Global is just National + being at least cult level in another country. Considering WWE still has a very strong presence in Canada and a pretty strong presence in the UK, only a really poor mod would rate them as anything but global.

Not to mention Mexico & Japan where when they tour there (once a year at least) they pull fine numbers (10,000). Recent Australlia tour was good. Europe could be the only arguement for a place where they arnt that great, but I'd assume they still would pull 6,000 people or so, still making them cult.

WWE should easily be National in USA and Canada (if you rank every country on its own) anyway guaranteeing international. Add any other continent at cult (and you could add at least 3 more) and its easily Global.

[Instant Classic]

TEW does not in any way have an accurate representation of how the real world in wrestling works when it comes to popularity and attendance values. Adam Ryland set that up on his own personal guidelines. When you look at TNA, they ARE a National company and that's all there is to it. They have half their roster under written deals and they hold shows outside the US on a normal basis and they are quite popular overseas. Going by TEW standards, TNA would have to be just above Cult even by 1% to be portrayed accurately. We all know TV ratings and attendance levels in TEW cannot be portrayed like in real life anyways, so why argue about it? It's like with the mods and mod makers. They will always argue that a worker should be "X" in this and that category, but most of them don't understand the point system Adam put in place to begin with. A worker will get a 30 in something on a mod when in fact according to the scale since they're barely average in that department it should be in the 50's.

It's all on perception, but by going on the TEW guidelines compared to how TNA is run and how they have deals, they ARE a National company in terms of TEW.

[sabataged]

I love how this thread is still going. Every few months this is usually a hot topic. Adam will come thru and squash it before long though. He said last time around that based on the game TNA would be Cult level. So I guess its in the eye of the modder. I would say high cult verging National or low National and you won't go wrong.

[shamelessposer]

I love how this thread is still going. Every few months this is usually a hot topic. Adam will come thru and squash it before long though. He said last time around that based on the game TNA would be Cult level. So I guess its in the eye of the modder. I would say high cult verging National or low National and you won't go wrong.

Things said by the designer of the game mean absolutely nothing when compared to the wishful thinking of someone who's played every demo since 08. There was a thread like this some time ago where someone insisted in all seriousness that WWE is Global, TNA is International, and ROH is National.

[Jaysin]

Anyone saying ROH and TNA are the same size are nuts. ROH maybe the internet's favorite thing in the world, but people are more likely to know what TNA is.

Hell, I went to an ROH show a few years ago and the way ROH advertised it they said "Featuring TNA stars Christopher Daniels, AJ Styles, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley, Abyss, plus your favorite ROH stars"

I really can't believe people have compared the two.

[shamelessposer]

Anyone saying ROH and TNA are the same size are nuts. ROH maybe the internet's favorite thing in the world, but people are more likely to know what TNA is.

Hell, I went to an ROH show a few years ago and the way ROH advertised it they said "Featuring TNA stars Christopher Daniels, AJ Styles, Chris Sabin, Alex Shelley, Abyss, plus your favorite ROH stars"

I really can't believe people have compared the two.

Nobody's saying that ROH and TNA are the same size. People who know that TNA is Cult also know that ROH is Regional.

[sabataged]

Nobody's saying that ROH and TNA are the same size. People who know that TNA is Cult also know that ROH is Regional.

this

[MrCanada]

this

the whole "this" post needs to stop.

I might start doing just "Yea" posts to save a letter and a millisecond

[foolinc]

Nobody's saying that ROH and TNA are the same size. People who know that TNA is Cult also know that ROH is Regional.

Actually I would say that ROH is just popular enough in the Great Lakes area (Chicago/Detroit) to warrant a discussion on whether they are really high Regional or the lowest Cult possible. Of course that doesn't really matter which side of the line they stand because they'll bump up to Cult sooner or later.

[Genadi]

the whole "this" post needs to stop.

I might start doing just "Yea" posts to save a letter and a millisecond

Dude he agrees with what was said, doesn't have more to add but wants it to be known he supports whatever he quoted in thought.


Mr Canada this isn't directed at you but rather the thread at this point...


When this board turn from a discussion to a debate forum? If you can't talk about this topic without talking down, insulting or belittling someone who maybe hasn't been playing or reading faqs as much yourself.... please as OP stay out.

I started this thread because I keep seeing the same question pop up in every section of TEW's forums. Instead of a "In TEW TNA is Cult and that's it because we've said so" type approach I thought now a better time then any to explain and discuss in detail why it is what it is. If you can't contribute to what I've just mentioned, don't comment.

[sabataged]

the whole "this" post needs to stop.

I might start doing just "Yea" posts to save a letter and a millisecond

Who the heck are you? So basically I need to quote his thread, and say "I agree with this statement". Why not type this...save me time typing, and save others time reading. Or maybe you could just go away? Sounds nice to me...


Or maybe you could just go away?

this

[Stennick]

Who the heck are you?

This

[TeemuFoundation]

Small.

[Donners]

Just played through a month of TEW in the C-verse, and I saw that USPW drew 10,000 fans to their monthly show. Which is to say, about 6,000 more fans than TNA has ever managed to assemble in one building at one time.

Well, except for the 9,000+ they got in one building at one time a couple of days ago...

[TeemuFoundation]

Well, except for the 9,000+ they got in one building at one time a couple of days ago...
9,000 people paid to see TNA? When? Why?

[Donners]

9,000 people paid to see TNA? When? Why?

Show at Wembley Arena, London. They had an Ultimate X match, which is a fair effort for a non-televised show.

They got 8,000 there last year, so lazorbeak needs to be careful about those sweeping statements...

[Terminator980]

Well, this discussion has been very....educational. It goes from discussion, to debate, to arguing, back to discussion, history lesson, other companies, then back to arguing. I'm sooooo following this one.

Oh, and my two cents, TNA should qualify nothing more then a mid or high cult. People know of this company but isn't quite a household name like WWE is.

If you talk to someone about wrestling, automatically they will assume you're talking about WWE(F) and/or "That thing that Hulk Hogan" does. The lesser wrestling fan MAY have heard of TNA, but has nothing to do with it. Just like back in the late 90's and ECW. They MAY have heard of ECW, but know nothing of the product.

Just the word cult gives it away. A cult following. But then again, you couldn't go off that word because if that were true, that TNA fans are just a cult following, then ROH, PWG, CZW are all at cult because of their cult following.

I have no idea why I contradicted myself on a retarded point and sounded like a fool, but I think it's because I was trying to provide examples (which this discussion is full of).

[Donners]

I have no idea why I contradicted myself on a retarded point and sounded like a fool, but I think it's because I was trying to provide examples (which this discussion is full of).

Full of examples or retarded points? :)

[Terminator980]

Full of examples or retarded points? :)

I don't know, I'm sorry. This is what happens when I can't sleep and try to think at the same time :(

[Bolton]

I love this topic so much.

[lazorbeak]

Show at Wembley Arena, London. They had an Ultimate X match, which is a fair effort for a non-televised show.

They got 8,000 there last year, so lazorbeak needs to be careful about those sweeping statements...


Don't know where you're getting this magic 10K number from, but a quick google search reveals that the 8K they got last year is the most they ever assembled at any point in their history. But since last I checked, it's outside of TNA's country, it has absolutely zero bearing on cult/national discussions anyway. :D

[GruntMark]

Things said by the designer of the game mean absolutely nothing when compared to the wishful thinking of someone who's played every demo since 08. There was a thread like this some time ago where someone insisted in all seriousness that WWE is Global, TNA is International, and ROH is National.

This reminds me of a friend who insists I must be six foot tall (Im not) because he cant possibly be shorter than 5'10''.

This debate had more merit before this years changes to cult. Now that written deals are possible....TNA is certainly cult by TEW standards.

[Donners]

Don't know where you're getting this magic 10K number from, but a quick google search reveals that the 8K they got last year is the most they ever assembled at any point in their history. But since last I checked, it's outside of TNA's country, it has absolutely zero bearing on cult/national discussions anyway. :D

You'll find a few reports from the show saying it was just about sold out except for some top-tier seats and citing that number. 9,000 is not unreasonable when they got 8,000 last year.

Never said it was relevant to the ongoing discussion; I responded to your line that they had never got that, when they just had.

Don't make sweeping statements if you don't want to be picked up on them...

[lazorbeak]

You'll find a few reports from the show saying it was just about sold out except for some top-tier seats and citing that number. 9,000 is not unreasonable when they got 8,000 last year.

Never said it was relevant to the ongoing discussion; I responded to your line that they had never got that, when they just had.

Don't make sweeping statements if you don't want to be picked up on them...

So by your own admission it's not relevant, yet you brought it up twice? Am I missing something?

[falling_star]

ECW had a TV deal with a national company; the very same company as TNA, in fact (although their network identity was different at the time). ECW ran on pay-per-view, as does TNA. ECW undoubtedly had a much busier & more profitable house show schedule than TNA. Now, I am/was a huge ECW fan, but at no point during the companies existance would I consider them to have been a National company in TEW terms; maybe they made it there for a month, lost the National battle, fell back to Cult and never recovered. . . but they weren't National. :p

In TEW, it has always been noted that the struggle from Cult to National is the hardest for a promotion to make. With TEW10 and the ability for Cult companies to get written deals if the circumstances are right (although ECW had written deals, and obviously were never close to $10m to the good, but you cannot expect a game to that acurately portray human nature), I'd say putting TNA at a respectable Cult rating so that they are poised to either rise to National, or crumble under the pressure is the way to go.

All of TNA's major signings can be simulated as a Cult fed with the capability of sneaking written deals (I do not consider Hogan a talent signing, its all a business deal that happens to include him being on-air).
- Christian? Disgruntled prospect/next big thing from the big leagues with plenty of indy star power sees the opportunity to be the big fish in a small pond. (James Justice to USPW)
- Sting? Loyalty to the owner, and a very favourable contract (no house shows, creative control, etc.). (Bruce the Giant to USPW)
- Kurt Angle? Falling out with the owner over a disagreement in career direction decides to prove his career vision is right. (Nemesis to DAVE)

All of these signings were very impoortant, major events for TNA; just as signing a worker to a written deal in a Cult fed should. But not a one was really 'signed away' from WWE. Christian may have had a WWE offer on the table, but he was unhappy and wanted to leave regardless. Sting is well known to have said he doesn't want to work for WWE. Kurt Angle walked out, and most likely would have in that situation regardless of TNA's existence. All of the other signings have been people who were released with no real options in Mexico or Japan to make the sort of money TNA offers (speaking in TEW terms, anyway). There were no bidding wars, there were no weighing of options; they didn't choose TNA over WWE, they simply chose 'not WWE'.

Above all else, you have to remember that a quality mod has to be fun. If TNA would be rated National, then certainly they wouldn't be rated that highly as a National company; what fun is it when one or two bad shows throw you back to Cult and then you are stuck waiting for the 'cool down' period to end. In that time, what happens when one of your written contracts comes up and they don't want to re-sign a written deal because you, the new booker, have already made a mess of things? Or if one of your goals is not to fall bellow National (a likely goal for a company at low National rating with an aggressive/at war relationship with their competition?

Or, lets say you rate them higher to avoid the fall back to Cult. . . certainly TNA isn't drawing in the numbers that rating would warrant. And what fun is it if you are in no danger of slipping up, but still not close enough to touch WWE? If you play at Cult, then there is the immediate challenge of rising to National. Once at National, and I would imagine a great foundation to rise to International within a few years time as TNA, then you have to fine tune your booking to get better segment ratings than WWE and start stealing their audience as your promotion's popularity/momentum increases.

I think what a LOT of people are forgetting in this discussion, is that is for the purposes of creating an enjoyable mod. They aren't asking, "Do you like TNA, and therefore think they are National because it is better than Cult?" Do you think TNA is a National company? Play the mod, and prove that they are by taking them there. Think they are a Cult fed not on the same level as WWE? Play the mod and show them why they're not in WWE's leauge.

[MrCanada]

Total Nonstop Action Wrestling held the final night of their UK Maximum iMPACT! Tour, on Saturday 24 January 2009, inside the Wembley Arena. On this night, the company set an all-time TNA attendance record of 8,100 fans.

Very impressive. But as always with TNA (and Japanease promotions) you have to wodner how many paid. I'd love if wrestling released gate information like other sports. Total attendance of 8,100 with a gate of $5,000! A Live RAW in London (the last one) drew 14,000 people just for a comparison.

Or they literally sold that many tickets in which, good job.

[Donners]

So by your own admission it's not relevant, yet you brought it up twice? Am I missing something?

The ability to admit you were wrong, perhaps? :D

[Donners]

Very impressive. But as always with TNA (and Japanease promotions) you have to wodner how many paid. I'd love if wrestling released gate information like other sports. Total attendance of 8,100 with a gate of $5,000!

Or they literally sold that many tickets in which, good job.

I always doubt TNA's numbers in the US, because they heavily paper those. For a tour, I think a paid attendance like that is reasonable in the UK, since they only come once a year, and they went all-out for the London show.

When the Hulkamania tour had to effectively paper their audience, by cutting prices by 70+%, it was pretty obvious to all who were following it, and was fairly widely reported. I heard nothing along those lines for TNA's tour.


It's not much in the context of WWE's drawing power (I went to a show here with a crowd of 55,000), but it is a start.

[Adam Ryland]

Closed; it's an argument that going around in circles with neither side listening to what the other is saying. Ultimately it's up to the mod maker.

I will say that the posting of "this" as a response does need to stop, as I've already said in several threads already. It smacks of unbelievable arrogance for someone to think that their opinion is so important that everyone else must know how they feel in every debate, even when they have nothing original or interesting to add. The whole "it saves time writing and reading" is such a poor argument on every level that it's almost funny - it saves a lot more time if the poster just assumes that the debate won't collapse just because his or her opinion wasn't heard, and just doesn't post.