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Unread 07-09-2016, 06:16 PM
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D-Lyrium D-Lyrium is offline
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Ok, so I found the posts I was meant to put here. The coding got screwed up though, so if any of these posts are attributed to the wrong person, my apologies.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaysin View Post
It might seem like it's a bit serious, but what if someone took the thunderverse and imported 100 workers and said "bingo, new mod"?

We want more people to get into mod making, but he's going about it all wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hive View Post
I don't know about you, but when I put hundreds of hours into creating something, I too tend to take what happens to my creation somewhat seriously.

Now I can't speak for those whose mods have been used for this project, of course, but I personally applaud guys like Jaysin making sure that mod makers are respected and their work protected. And in the end, if that is not done, the most dedicated mod makers will stop producing material here and leave.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHero
I understand you (and Jaysin's point above yours) but either posting in here ripping the mick out of the guy or straight up calling him out isn't going to either get work protected or more mod makers (If I was a new mod maker, I'd be wondering what is the point based on the reactions in here).

I get that people want guidelines and rules to posting mods but there are ways to go about it and treating everyone with a baseline level of respect seems tantamount to getting more people interested in modding.

Looking at BiTW's credit lists, he's credited everyone he's used assets from. As jhd pointed out NWAvsWWF is seemingly AWOL and all his work has been marked in the 2013 Mod Index as free to use. Genadi's work I understand is on an ask to use basis but that's where something like a free to use locations/angles/titles pack for RW mods would come in handy. BiTW's posted in here he got permission from Fleisch so it's a case of jumping the gun there.

I get that he's used stuff from yourself and other modders before without asking permission first and I can certainly understand how annoying that is. But imagine it from the other point of view - it'd certainly be frustrating if you were a new mod maker who'd used someone's mod as a base (presumably someone you greatly admired for mod making abilities in the first place) and then would have that person or two/three others jumping in making mildly sardonic comments about your abilities to produce a mod.

Best case scenario? We draw a line under all this and work together as a modding community to establish some sort of barebones baseline mod starter pack that everyone can use. That way, modders new and old don't have to go through the slog of adding a ton of locations and titles and such which allows them more time to work on the important parts of a mod.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TsuMirren
You should wait for permission before you announce, it's as simple as that. Anyone denying that either is someone desperate to play or someone who mods fantasy Verse databases.

I can't even begin to detail the time that has gone in to getting the UK and European data together and working. From working on DOTT with Eric back when it first came out, to offering Genadi help back in 11 or so, doing my own work on mods and joining The Mod Squad I must have put in at least 6 months of actual time at the very least. Reading results, piecing info together, checking and cross checking dates, editing future workers so they don't debut as geniuses, watching youtube clips, going over and over articles just hoping to find an age. Getting lost on a tangent, finding random detail, having 6 browser tabs...previously windows...open to cross check various results listings. It's just insane, you go from researcher to scout to booker and all to ensure a D+ isn't wrongly a C- or a promotion doesn't die in 6 months because the game mechanics are screwed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TsuMirren View Post
You should wait for permission before you announce, it's as simple as that. Anyone denying that either is someone desperate to play or someone who mods fantasy Verse databases.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swanton
Nice, you really think that it's easy to make a fantasy mod? "Oh, just come up with 1,500 or so workers, anywhere from 30 to 60 promotions and all without them being blatantly just the exact same as a promotion or worker from reality. [Last sentence redacted]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Packerman
Now, I think my friend might have been blindsided in anger, so I think he might have gone a little bit overboard on the last sentence, but I do think that this whole "must ask permission" thing is grade A BS. What happened to when we were an open community who didn't care when someone created a mod using your database?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TsuMirren
Step back and read my comment though, then mull it over. Verse makes don't care about permission, because why anyone bother even copying one? Futhermore, why would anyone make a historical version of one?

Oh and if you can come up with 1,500 unique workers then well done. No tough Texan, no brawling Irish, no well rounded Americans, no "family" of well trained Canadians, no masked Mexicans, no Japanese workers who are stiff or high tying though can tell a story. No hardcore guys, no respected Indy. 250 unique maybe, but I'm involved with a Verse just now and you can see blatant similarities. You need some for context, no matter how out there they are.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hive
There's a difference between using a mod as basis for a completely different mod in which you've put in hours upon hours of work to make it fresh, unique and different... and spending 2 hours tweaking some contracts in an existing mod, then calling it your own.

But then I take it that you've never made a mod of this scale of your own? I usually find it's the non-mod makers who can't see the reason in taking the courtesy to ask for permissions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by packerman120 View Post
Hive, I get your point, but I feel the last part was unnecessary. But as long as the original mod maker is given credit, why do you care? Shouldn't we be as open a community as possible? Hell, it's a TEW mod, and I understand that you put a metric shit ton of work into your mods, and I respect that. But it's still a TEW mod. And for that matter, as long as PROPER CREDIT is given in the mod and in the release, it shouldn't matter. I really just wish all of us were more open and made the mods freeware again (like they were last year, and we had no issues!), and we could just avoid this drama and have fun with an awesome game!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hive View Post
Look, it's a simple question of saying "hey, I know you've put in several hundred hours of work into this mod - so asking for permission before using it to release a mod of my own is the least I can do". I don't understand how showing that simply courtesy to the mod makers is such a horrible thought to some.

For the record, I've never rejected a single request to use my mods - either in hole or just parts thereof. And believe me, there have been quite a few requests. Some made it to released mods, others didn't. But I never rejected a polite request. I always offer encouragement, even helping with suggestions, advice and ideas if asked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by packerman120 View Post
Okay, in that case, fine, make it so that you have to ask for permission, just as a common courtesy. But why do we (not you Hive) have to break one of the core rules of the forums and attack someone just because they forgot to ask for your permission? If anything, just calmly PM them and talk it out there, and I'm sure whoever the person is would be fine giving proper credit. No need to publicly flame anothers mod for it. And Hive, I apologize if I offended you in any regard in this matter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MHero
Quote:
Originally Posted by TsuMirren View Post
To be honest, I expected that. Step back and read my comment though, then mull it over. Verse makes don't care about permission, because why anyone bother even copying one? Futhermore, why would anyone make a historical version of one?
To provide a further, more detailed level of backstory into the universal world of the mod(s) in question as well as flex creative wings and show a different side of the mod(s).

And from experience, I've had people ask to do Thunderverse stuff to feel like part of the overarching community and give something back to the team who created it. It's happened with the Cornellverse over the years and the historical mods are widely regarded as some of the best work ever seen on these boards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TsuMirren View Post
Oh and if you can come up with 1,500 unique workers then well done. No tough Texan, no brawling Irish, no well rounded Americans, no "family" of well trained Canadians, no masked Mexicans, no Japanese workers who are stiff or high tying though can tell a story. No hardcore guys, no respected Indy. 250 unique maybe, but I'm involved with a Verse just now and you can see blatant similarities. You need some for context, no matter how out there they are.
Yeah, fictional verses have worker similarities at base level. But therein lies the differences between real world mods and fictional mods.

Real world mods are benefitted from having a set structure in place. You take a year in wrestling and you build the mod around that. You've got footage of the workers doing what they were doing from that year. You've got the iconic stars, the underrated favourites and the notoriously political workers. You've literally got the information you need to build the mod up.

Fictional verses have a ton of under the hood stuff that people don't necessarily know about. To peel back the curtain a little bit, Thunderverse Diamond started development on the 10th of January this year. We've spent at least six months purely discussing what to do with the world and each region. We've had to sit and think about where the big names should be placed, what happens to some indie stars and any surprise moves that we can pull off. Not only that, we've still got to come up with unique characters (my avatar says hello. Or he would if he could talk. _) complete with renders and stats and such. Whilst you do have the old wrestling stereotypes, it's how they're implemented in the mod that makes them unique. It's a very baseline thought to look at a worker and go "Urgh, another brawling Irish man" without analyzing the context of the worker in the mod.

Whilst the above might seem like a tangent and it by no means sullies the work real world mod makers put into getting each worker picture perfect (or perfect by their own subjective thought), it highlights the difference between the two philosophies of mod making we've got going on in here. I'm not quite entirely sure why fictional verses were even brought into the discussion here but as someone more grounded in the mod making process of fictional verses, I thought I'd just throw my two pence in.
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