Grey Dog Software

Go Back   Grey Dog Software > GDS Central > The Dog Pound
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #16  
Unread 08-12-2011, 06:00 PM
bigtplaystew's Avatar
bigtplaystew bigtplaystew is offline
Phenom
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 647
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrows View Post
The fact that they killed off a great character just so they could kiss as$ and be politically correct says plenty about how idiotic this entire thing is. I have no problem with a new spidey, but every time I see someone think it's a good idea because it's politically correct and "Gives them something", I wanna shove em in front of a train.
I actually agree with this post 100%
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Unread 08-12-2011, 08:08 PM
cappyboy's Avatar
cappyboy cappyboy is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,897
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arrows View Post
The fact that they killed off a great character just so they could kiss as$ and be politically correct says plenty about how idiotic this entire thing is. I have no problem with a new spidey, but every time I see someone think it's a good idea because it's politically correct and "Gives them something", I wanna shove em in front of a train.
Yeah because when junk like this happens, it seemingly has to involve a beloved franchise. They can't take a guy like Luke Cage and make him more meaningful to expand diversity. They can't elevate a guy like Cyborg who's been a known commodity for 25 years between the later Superfriends era and Teen Titans to lead character status.

Maybe salvage like a Black Vulcan or El Dorado and make him more impressive than he was on the small screen. I hated Hawkman for years because all I knew of him was the horribly watered-down, borderline useless Superfriends version of him. How shocked I was that he could actually be cool when I finally got his Showcase collections and saw how much more there was to him in the 60's. How much more empowering and how much better it would be for diversity if a former one-note also-ran could have a new legacy of actually being cool crafted for him. But no, it's "let's mess with this established franchise to make a politically correct statement."
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Unread 08-12-2011, 11:06 PM
lazorbeak lazorbeak is offline
Super Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,192
Default

Yes, who could forget that iconic character that has entertained us all for 11 long years. Seriously this is happening in the ULTIMATE universe. A universe absolutely nobody has cared about outside of Ultimate Spidey fans for about 5 years. This talk about "elevating" a character has nothing to do with a single storyline in a nearly self-contained alternate version of the title.

And I don't even read Flashpoint but Cyborg has been elevated in that, based on what little I've seen. Luke Cage went from "Sweet Christmas" yellow silk shirt guy to the leader of an Avengers team and a devoted father. So these things that "can't" happen have either already happened or are in the process of happening. But they don't get the same mainstream press, so casual comics fans may not even be aware of it.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Unread 08-13-2011, 05:11 AM
Hive's Avatar
Hive Hive is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 3,217
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazorbeak View Post
Seriously this is happening in the ULTIMATE universe. A universe absolutely nobody has cared about outside of Ultimate Spidey fans for about 5 years.
Aye. And hasn't the Ultimate Universe kinda always been about catering to political correctness and trying out new stuff? Didn't they make more characters, most prominently Collossus, homosexual as well?

Oh, and also: didn't they already do something like this? Was Spider-Man 2099 not hispanic as well?

I just hope all this political correctness doesn't translate into the mainsteam universe and the movies. I'd hate to see a black Spider-Man in movies just as much as I'd hate to see a white Luke Cage. But of course, while the former would be applauded by the PC crowd; the latter would be shunned and be called "racist", so that won't happen.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Unread 08-13-2011, 12:40 PM
cappyboy's Avatar
cappyboy cappyboy is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,897
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazorbeak View Post
Yes, who could forget that iconic character that has entertained us all for 11 long years. Seriously this is happening in the ULTIMATE universe. A universe absolutely nobody has cared about outside of Ultimate Spidey fans for about 5 years. This talk about "elevating" a character has nothing to do with a single storyline in a nearly self-contained alternate version of the title.

And I don't even read Flashpoint but Cyborg has been elevated in that, based on what little I've seen. Luke Cage went from "Sweet Christmas" yellow silk shirt guy to the leader of an Avengers team and a devoted father. So these things that "can't" happen have either already happened or are in the process of happening. But they don't get the same mainstream press, so casual comics fans may not even be aware of it.
But if it isn't happening where it can be seen, is it really all that meaningful?Posts like this reminds me of that admonition I always heard at my Christian high school about not hiding your light under a bushel. Not quite the same thing as the light they were referring to in the church setting was one's Christian faith. But if all these meaningful things that folks would applaud are happening, then get the word out and make yourself more relevant. Don't be ashamed of the fact and stick to preaching to the choir. Spread the gospel to every creature if you will.

I hear all the talk publishing's a dying art because of the Internet and e-readers and the like. And while there's undoubtedly some truth in that, it needn't be as much so in comicdom if they'd get over the the gentrified, gated community think that appears to have taken over. It's almost like they don't WANT to be relevant and accessible because that they feel that would mean watering down their "dazzling art work" and "graphic novel" pretensions. And if the Internet and the e-readers overwhelm them because of said puffery? Oh well. March of time and all that.

The baseball card scene did the same thing. They got too pretentious for their own good as well. With the glossy sets and the special editions with the cut up memorbilia embedded in them. Junk like that. And look where they are now. Nobody but the diehard elite care about them to any meaningful degree either.

Both have forgotten that they got to be institutions by being diversions the young could throw their allowances at and feel like they had a piece of the action. By being cheap escapism for the masses and letting the high and mighty comic geekbait tend to itself. The way I see it, I shouldn't hear any more of people like Grant Morrison and Bryan Michael Bendis than I do of the second string catcher for the Portland Sea Dogs down here in VA Beach. It should be characters I hear about. It shouldn't be Alan Moore's name I recognize. It should be the members of the Watchmen. Yet I don't know I could decisively pull any of their names up out of my memory as I type this.

Not that the Morrisons and Bendises and Moores do bad work or anything. But they are useless trivia compared to the battles between Green Lantern and Sinestro or Hawkgirl's attempts to keep Mavis Trent from sniffing around her husband all the time. Spidey's romance with Mary Jane. It's how cool the characters are (Yes, including how they look.) and the relationships they have with one other that count. Sure, the people who create them are nice to know about. But I don't need to know them any more than I need to know the names of the artists who drew the Powerpuff Girls to enjoy their cartoons.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Unread 08-13-2011, 12:52 PM
brashleyholland's Avatar
brashleyholland brashleyholland is offline
Minor League
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Cambridge/Manchester, UK/Amsterdam, Holland
Posts: 394
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hive View Post

I just hope all this political correctness doesn't translate into the mainsteam universe and the movies. I'd hate to see a black Spider-Man in movies just as much as I'd hate to see a white Luke Cage. But of course, while the former would be applauded by the PC crowd; the latter would be shunned and be called "racist", so that won't happen.
Am I the only person that finds the idea of a middle-class, suburban white boy acting 'ghetto' Luke Cage hilarious?

"Whazzup dawg, nah, I ain't fightin' no crime as Powerman tonight G...crashed my pop's Lexus on the way back from Lacrosse practise, now I'm grounded yo! Man's always keepin' me down!"
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Unread 08-13-2011, 02:08 PM
lazorbeak lazorbeak is offline
Super Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,192
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappyboy View Post
But if it isn't happening where it can be seen, is it really all that meaningful?Posts like this reminds me of that admonition I always heard at my Christian high school about not hiding your light under a bushel. Not quite the same thing as the light they were referring to in the church setting was one's Christian faith. But if all these meaningful things that folks would applaud are happening, then get the word out and make yourself more relevant. Don't be ashamed of the fact and stick to preaching to the choir. Spread the gospel to every creature if you will.
But it is happening where comic book fans see it. It's a dying industry though. Flashpoint is DC's flagship as they transition over into their relaunch. They literally could not push it more than they are right now. Luke Cage has gone from featured member to leader of the New Avengers, a book that is consistently in the top 10-20 every month and has been for about seven years. The only reason the casual fan doesn't know about it is they haven't been turned into a movie or cartoon. Like I said, it makes your points sound absurd when they obviously are and have been doing what you're talking about, it just doesn't get nearly the same attention as calling a minority character "Spider-Man."

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappyboy View Post
I hear all the talk publishing's a dying art because of the Internet and e-readers and the like. And while there's undoubtedly some truth in that, it needn't be as much so in comicdom if they'd get over the the gentrified, gated community think that appears to have taken over. It's almost like they don't WANT to be relevant and accessible because that they feel that would mean watering down their "dazzling art work" and "graphic novel" pretensions. And if the Internet and the e-readers overwhelm them because of said puffery? Oh well. March of time and all that.
Oh right, you're the guy that "doesn't care" about artists. Watering down their dazzling art-work? What are you going on about? Graphic novel pretensions? Are you living in some alternate dimension where comic books are seen as valuable, intelligent material? The death of traditional comic publishing has absolutely zilch to do with any of the things you're saying, and everything to do with changes in the publishing and related industries in the past 15 years. It's like blaming the decline of encyclopedias on their insistence on fancy book-binding.


Quote:
Originally Posted by cappyboy View Post
Both have forgotten that they got to be institutions by being diversions the young could throw their allowances at and feel like they had a piece of the action. By being cheap escapism for the masses and letting the high and mighty comic geekbait tend to itself. The way I see it, I shouldn't hear any more of people like Grant Morrison and Bryan Michael Bendis than I do of the second string catcher for the Portland Sea Dogs down here in VA Beach. It should be characters I hear about. It shouldn't be Alan Moore's name I recognize. It should be the members of the Watchmen. Yet I don't know I could decisively pull any of their names up out of my memory as I type this.
Maybe you just have an awful, awful memory? Watchmen's characters were incredibly memorable. And even when comics were relevant, it's not like Stan Lee was this mysterious recluse that nobody ever heard from. Just not a strong comparison.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cappyboy View Post
Not that the Morrisons and Bendises and Moores do bad work or anything. But they are useless trivia compared to the battles between Green Lantern and Sinestro or Hawkgirl's attempts to keep Mavis Trent from sniffing around her husband all the time. Spidey's romance with Mary Jane. It's how cool the characters are (Yes, including how they look.) and the relationships they have with one other that count. Sure, the people who create them are nice to know about. But I don't need to know them any more than I need to know the names of the artists who drew the Powerpuff Girls to enjoy their cartoons.
Characters are still what sells comics though. It's just that comics are such a small industry that the characters that sell are those that are featured in videogames, cartoons, movies, and other media that didn't become irrelevant in the mid 1990's.

I mean why on earth would a kid today spend $3 on a 20-some page comic, when that same $3 could buy them some game on their cell phone? Assuming the kid even knows where to find a comic, since they're not sold in grocery stores or pharmacies anymore, Borders is gone, etc. I mean when I started reading comics it was months before I ever went to a "comic book store." I just read what interested me when my parents were shopping. But in the ensuing two decades (ugh I'm so old), that's just not possible any more. There is no comic rack at the corner store. And the prices have tripled even as the industry shrank.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Unread 08-13-2011, 04:47 PM
mike b mike b is offline
Super Star
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 1,657
Default

Phhht lazor Beak 2 decades.Come on your still young and full of fun.

I remember when i was growing up there were NO comic book stores were i lived but comics were everywhere.

The main super market had a book stand as you walked in the store devoted to nothing but all the comics from D/C and Marvel.

And all the snack shops that catered to mostly kids with there candy and stuff all had comic book racks. And if you had 5 dollars on you you could walk out with at least 8 or 9 comics (50 cents a title).

Aww how things have changed.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Unread 08-13-2011, 05:38 PM
cappyboy's Avatar
cappyboy cappyboy is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,897
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by lazorbeak View Post
But it is happening where comic book fans see it. It's a dying industry though. Flashpoint is DC's flagship as they transition over into their relaunch. They literally could not push it more than they are right now. Luke Cage has gone from featured member to leader of the New Avengers, a book that is consistently in the top 10-20 every month and has been for about seven years. The only reason the casual fan doesn't know about it is they haven't been turned into a movie or cartoon. Like I said, it makes your points sound absurd when they obviously are and have been doing what you're talking about, it just doesn't get nearly the same attention as calling a minority character "Spider-Man."
Okay. You know what, dude? I'm going to stand down here. I'm not going to engage you directly. Not because anybody's right here or anybody's wrong. But I can see it will get nowhere. You're too firmly entrenched on your side. I'm too firmly entrenched on mine. And neither of us is able to say anything that makes the other want to ease up enough to make dialogue constructive.

I'll give you this much though. I may well be an under-informed curmudgeon who's totally fueled by misguided perceptions. I'm willing to stand 100% behind that possibility. That possibility's not new to me. Truth be told, there have been times I was just that. So don't let anybody suggest I'm putting those words in your mouth. I'm putting them in my own because they may be true.

But keep in mind, I've come at stuff from odd directions all my life. You're not the first person to be as baffled by my thought process as your last post shows you to be. Nor will you be the last. We're just not the right two people to be taking this side of the discussion up with each other and that's okay. It's annoying but it happens.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Unread 08-13-2011, 06:46 PM
lazorbeak lazorbeak is offline
Super Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,192
Default

I can respect that, but I just thought it was funny that two of your two specific examples are either in the midst of a major event comic that is the most important thing DC is putting out this summer, and another guy who has consistently been a major part of the biggest franchise at Marvel (since Avengers passed up X-Men a few years back when Wolverine and Spidey joined). Seriously, what more could the industry do for this sub-issue short of blaring it from the heavens? But it gets zero press because the only time comics ever get mainstream press any more is when a character is killed. Even if it's a character as completely irrelevant as Ultimate Spider-Man. Another character you didn't mention has been majorly pushed in the past 15 years, too. Black Panther has an on-going now and has had about 4 series in the past 12 years or so, temporarily joined the Fantastic Four while Reed took a break, married Storm of the X-Men, and otherwise became a major part of the Marvel Universe for the first time since the Lee/Kirby era. Shockingly enough, it doesn't grab a lot of headlines, since most people only know Black Panther as the political party that was founded shortly after the comic character was created. Because his only media appearances are as an unlockable guy in Ultimate Alliance, a direct to dvd animated sequel, and a horrible BET stop-motion animation thing.

I can understand not wanting to argue, so that's fine. But that thing you said first:

Quote:
Yeah because when junk like this happens, it seemingly has to involve a beloved franchise. They can't take a guy like Luke Cage and make him more meaningful to expand diversity. They can't elevate a guy like Cyborg who's been a known commodity for 25 years between the later Superfriends era and Teen Titans to lead character status.
Is completely the opposite of true.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Unread 08-16-2011, 08:00 PM
mike b mike b is offline
Super Star
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Hawaii
Posts: 1,657
Default Spider Man Joins F4

The F4 have a new name a new look and a new member SPIDER MAN

Also spider mans costume has been changed to white to match the new look of F4

http://shelf-life.ew.com/2011/02/10/...re-foundation/
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Unread 08-16-2011, 09:06 PM
lazorbeak lazorbeak is offline
Super Star
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 1,192
Default

Yeah that's old news. The first arc has been kind of hit and miss, but sales are well above where they were.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Unread 08-16-2011, 09:55 PM
Remianen's Avatar
Remianen Remianen is offline
Living Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Mount Joy, PA
Posts: 7,530
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Clarity View Post
Cyclops killed Magneto.
The single most ignominious, enraging end I've ever witnessed. Seriously. Killed by CYCLOPS?!? The one Summers kid who got the short end of the genetic stick (Alex and Gabriel = far more powerful)? Hell, Nathan (Cable)/Nate's (X-Man) powers (both versions) come from their MOTHER. Always hated Cyclops. Maybe not as much as I hate Superman or Captain America but I still hate him. To have my favorite character in all of comics die to that....pissant, still makes me mad. Even though the Ultimate universe means about as much as the soiled toilet paper I just flushed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tjb000 View Post
Makes me sad though when people claim the Ultimate Universe "doesn't matter". I just see it as place where different creative writers have a place where they can tell THEIR stories without worrying about all the continuity of the Marvel Universe.
tjb, let me clue you in on something. The reason the Ultimate universe doesn't matter is specifically for the reason you state. The writers are allowed to do whatever the hell pops into their mind at any given time, with little to no editorial control. With 616, Joe Q maintained an almost iron grip on the stories that got told. Look at the list of characters they just killed off. Who's left that anyone's going to care about? The marquee names are all gone so all you have left are gimmicks (like a biracial Spider-Man).

cappyboy, I can understand your perspective. As a person who probably hasn't followed comics closely, your views are valid. However, the truth differs from your view of them. As a collector for well over 30 years (my grandfather gave me his collection, that dates back to the 20s), I can tell how the industry has changed by how I've changed as a reader/collector. There was a time when Rob Liefeld was one of (if not THE) hottest artists in comics. Look at Liefeld's art now and you can see how genuinely AWFUL it really is. I was 21 before I realized that Whilce Portacio doesn't draw good backgrounds (or any background at all) in his work. Your point on how interest should be character driven and not artist or writer driven ignores the fact that it's the writers and artists that make a character what it is. For example, Gail Simone updated Wonder Woman and made her relevant again. That didn't happen just because the year changed, it was a writer who did that. Big events supercede and overshadow their writer(s) and artist(s). Quick, who wrote the Death of Superman arc? You don't know, do you? Why? Because it was the DEATH OF FRIGGIN' SUPERMAN, that's why! Who wrote the death of Bruce Wayne/Batman arc? You don't know that either, for the exact same reason! You can't expect people, in this day and age, to buy a title solely due to the character headlining it. Those days are long gone. That trend started way back in the 80s with people like Liefeld, McFarlane, Larsen, Lee (Jim & Jae), Portacio, Silvestri, and Claremont. People whose chops were unquestioned (at the time) and who really put their mark on a book when they took over. Who created Cable? Rob Liefeld. That's one way to make your mark.

Now, there are a handful of artists (Adam Hughes, Frank Cho, Amanda Conner, Talent Caldwell, J.Scott Campbell, Brian Pulido, Juan Jose Ryp, David Finch, etc) and writers (Gail Simone, Claremont, J. Michael Straczynski, etc) that I will buy whatever their names are on, regardless of genre or anything else. Besides that, I tend to follow comics in the way Joe Q prefers (trade paperbacks). There are titles I follow religiously, if only to support their continuation (Power Girl is one, since I still feel guilty for not supporting She-Hulk) but most titles I buy are because of their writers or artists (or both).
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Unread 08-16-2011, 10:48 PM
cappyboy's Avatar
cappyboy cappyboy is offline
All Star
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 2,897
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remianen View Post

cappyboy, I can understand your perspective. As a person who probably hasn't followed comics closely, your views are valid. However, the truth differs from your view of them. As a collector for well over 30 years (my grandfather gave me his collection, that dates back to the 20s), I can tell how the industry has changed by how I've changed as a reader/collector. There was a time when Rob Liefeld was one of (if not THE) hottest artists in comics. Look at Liefeld's art now and you can see how genuinely AWFUL it really is. I was 21 before I realized that Whilce Portacio doesn't draw good backgrounds (or any background at all) in his work. Your point on how interest should be character driven and not artist or writer driven ignores the fact that it's the writers and artists that make a character what it is. For example, Gail Simone updated Wonder Woman and made her relevant again. That didn't happen just because the year changed, it was a writer who did that. Big events supercede and overshadow their writer(s) and artist(s). Quick, who wrote the Death of Superman arc? You don't know, do you? Why? Because it was the DEATH OF FRIGGIN' SUPERMAN, that's why! Who wrote the death of Bruce Wayne/Batman arc? You don't know that either, for the exact same reason! You can't expect people, in this day and age, to buy a title solely due to the character headlining it. Those days are long gone. That trend started way back in the 80s with people like Liefeld, McFarlane, Larsen, Lee (Jim & Jae), Portacio, Silvestri, and Claremont. People whose chops were unquestioned (at the time) and who really put their mark on a book when they took over. Who created Cable? Rob Liefeld. That's one way to make your mark.

Now, there are a handful of artists (Adam Hughes, Frank Cho, Amanda Conner, Talent Caldwell, J.Scott Campbell, Brian Pulido, Juan Jose Ryp, David Finch, etc) and writers (Gail Simone, Claremont, J. Michael Straczynski, etc) that I will buy whatever their names are on, regardless of genre or anything else. Besides that, I tend to follow comics in the way Joe Q prefers (trade paperbacks). There are titles I follow religiously, if only to support their continuation (Power Girl is one, since I still feel guilty for not supporting She-Hulk) but most titles I buy are because of their writers or artists (or both).
Remi, once again, you show why you are considered the oracle around here. I hope Lazorbeak reads this post and takes note of the tone. I get the feeling this is the type of thing he was trying to convey but was too befuddled to state as calmly.

But there is one point I still need to question. The one you were making about Rob Liefeld's art. To my knowledge, I've never seen any of it. First time I ever remember even seeing his name. But I would imagine that even if I did see his work, I probably wouldn't see what you were saying about why it was so awful. I am so very miserable in the visual arts that I would imagine even he would look like a master compared to me. That more so than considering the art in comics irrelevant is why I was saying know who the artist is useless to me. No matter who he is or how awful he's generally considered to be, he's capable of conveying the scene well enough to serve my purpose.

Basically, I'm a very simple reader with simple demands. And from what you're saying, it's no wonder I find the modern product so inaccessible. The process of squeezing out the element I represent apparently goes back to when I was in high school and uninclined to care because I was in Christian school and we had our own pop culture to follow. Which puts things further back than I was even giving credit for. In which case I see why Lazorbeak was so sharp with me. To him, I must sound like the Confederate soldier who crawled out his bunker in 1900 and didn't realize the war had ended a generation previously.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Unread 08-16-2011, 11:55 PM
tjb000's Avatar
tjb000 tjb000 is offline
Low Minors
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Iowa, USA
Posts: 128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remianen View Post
tjb, let me clue you in on something. The reason the Ultimate universe doesn't matter is specifically for the reason you state. The writers are allowed to do whatever the hell pops into their mind at any given time, with little to no editorial control. With 616, Joe Q maintained an almost iron grip on the stories that got told. Look at the list of characters they just killed off. Who's left that anyone's going to care about? The marquee names are all gone so all you have left are gimmicks (like a biracial Spider-Man).
Fair enough. Like I had mentioned I'm fairly new to comic books so my opinion wasn't very valid to begin with. However, I've heard some good things about the Ultimate Spider-Man series and was given the recommendation. This was before the whole killing off Spider-Man and making him biracial thing. I hadn't realized they've killed off so many characters in the Ultimate Universe until this thread. Again, like I said, I haven't been paying a whole lot of attention to the Ultimate Universe anyways.

I really hate going off by 'what I hear' about stuff, but I guess that comes with beginning to get into things such as comics.

I never thought I'd be into Captain America but I thought issue #1 of the new series was pretty good. I don't have a whole lot to compare it to but I enjoyed it. X-Men: Schism has also been pretty good, especially issue #1. Not perfect, as even I noticed some stuff that seemed off, but overall, I'm enjoying the series so far. Find it odd though that the main conflict that's suppose to happen in Schism hasn't even really begun yet and there's only 3 issues left. Seem like a lot the writer (Jason Aaron) will have to add to the next issues to plant it and deliver. I'm expecting issue #3 here shortly along with 5 other comics.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.