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  #16  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:27 AM
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Genadi Genadi is offline
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Originally Posted by packerman120 View Post
I mean, I do believe you, but forgive me for thinking that sounds just a bit crazy and unbelievable. Makes little sense in the grand scheme of things.
It was a bit crazy and unbelievable.... Yet it happened, Adam introduced the rules and here we are.

Not sure what the grand scheme of things has anything to do with it?
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  #17  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:29 AM
Peter.1986 Peter.1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by MrCreative View Post
I'm fully of the belief that this game would be even more niche that it is, without the ability to have real world mods. It might not even be financially viable.

I just wanted to add though, I feel you're contradicting yourself with fictional vs non-fictional. The ratings, data collected etc are certainly original works, there's no single definitive way to measure a worker. It's a mod maker's ideas how good a person is at a given time, whether workers should have colour ratings, or not, whether they are a particular size, body weight. Even Ownership structures... I don't wish to bring an external debate here, but I know that there's been many discussions between myself, Genadi and justtxyank on how best to simulate WCW's ownership structures

There's many ways in which work into a mod is original to a point, and very much so I think people have a right to complain if someone wants to use their work without permission. As you'll know any kind of mod takes a certain kind of care and attention to detail into it to be in any way a good mod. What I don't like to see personally are two things:-

People mass importing a mod, and only making very small changes to the databases and not holding it to a high standard. Especially when lots of issues become apparent in that mod because worker stats are overpowered, or details are wrong because often - a worker created for a mod in 1997 is meant for 1997, not 1992 or 1993.

I also think that sometimes, credit given to people without asking is actually a reflection of that persons' work than the person creating the mod. If the details are wrong, and the mod attributes that part of the work to you (and not the author), then people will be less trusting of your work in future.

Asking for credit is great for a couple of things, its an endorsement but also oftentimes you will find people will be very much willing to help you out with mod specific changes and polish. There's many great members of the community that do this, TsuMirren, Genadi, justtxyank, Hive, Matt Shannon to name a few who are also great with feedback as well.

Everybody wants more mods but more importantly, everybody wants great mods. That's why I think communication and collaboration is so important. Everybody's mods become suddenly better when we're all discussing things and helping each other. It isn't helped though if some people are out for themselves and just want to take work from others and take credit themselves, without also contributing to the community as a whole.
I know what your saying about maybe I'm contradicting myself, but i did find it hard to explain what I meant.

Real world mods are replicating real life, so everything is already there, you're basically making the mod as close as possible to what you think each worker company etc are in real life. So to have ownership over something like that I don't think is really possible. Imagine if an ex-wrestler was part of these boards and turned round and said well your using me in your mods without permission?

That's what I mean, where as mods totally made up by the person they have total ownership.

Don't get me wrong here like I said I respect the real life mod makers and possibly even more, I would always offer to help where I can in any real life mod. I certainly don't want people to stop making them either.
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  #18  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:32 AM
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Ayden Ayden is offline
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Originally Posted by Hive View Post
No offense, but it's pretty clear that you don't know how it feels to spend hundreds of hours of your life creating a mod. Once again, it's the people who doesn't mod themselves that are the strongest proponents for the "just do as you please with no regard to anyone" philosophy.

It baffles me to no end that something as simple as "Hey, we'd like you to simply throw us a PM asking for permission as a sign of respect" can be objected to so fiercely. We're not asking you for money or your first born, we're asking for respect for our hard work. How on earth can that be perceived as being too much to ask for???

To me, this kind of behaviour is both shocking and sad. And while I cannot speak for others, I can tell you that if Adam's rules about asking permission are lifted, I'll personally stop making mods for the masses. We modders spend soooo much time you non-modders probably wouldn't believe it trying to create a flush gameworld and a great experience for others for free - and if we can't even be shown the simplest form of gratitude and respect for our work, then why bother?
Is that not what giving credit is doing though? Showing respect for your work? But please don't take that as me arguing. You raise a good point, sending a pm isn't hard (plus I respect your body of work. CoTT is one of my favourite mods.)

My problem (and I think most people's problems) is not the freeware/not freeware argument but more how certain people are handling things, the obvious shining example is from the Best In The World mod. Some people are borderline bullying and on a public forum rather than just trying to solve it via PM.

Again, not trying to attack...love your work. Just trying to say where a lot of us are coming from
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  #19  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:36 AM
Peter.1986 Peter.1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hive View Post
No offense, but it's pretty clear that you don't know how it feels to spend hundreds of hours of your life creating a mod. Once again, it's the people who doesn't mod themselves that are the strongest proponents for the "just do as you please with no regard to anyone" philosophy.

It baffles me to no end that something as simple as "Hey, we'd like you to simply throw us a PM asking for permission as a sign of respect" can be objected to so fiercely. We're not asking you for money or your first born, we're asking for respect for our hard work. How on earth can that be perceived as being too much to ask for???

To me, this kind of behaviour is both shocking and sad. And while I cannot speak for others, I can tell you that if Adam's rules about asking permission are lifted, I'll personally stop making mods for the masses. We modders spend soooo much time you non-modders probably wouldn't believe it trying to create a flush gameworld and a great experience for others for free - and if we can't even be shown the simplest form of gratitude and respect for our work, then why bother?
You see your first line is incorrect, I've spent hours upon hours modding games, I've spent hours on TEW mods that never made release, and I've spent much longer on modding other games which have made release, I've been missing/editing games since the first ever championship manager came with an editor, and I've allowed people to use my databases.

What you have to realise here is there are a lot of new people buying the game this year that like me originally wouldn't even think to look for rules regarding modding, because the thought wouldn't even cross their minds that they aren't allowed to take a mod and change it, or use it to form a mod.

That's the real issue we have here.
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  #20  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Ayden View Post
Is that not what giving credit is doing though? Showing respect for your work? But please don't take that as me arguing. You raise a good point, sending a pm isn't hard (plus I respect your body of work. CoTT is one of my favourite mods.)

My problem (and I think most people's problems) is not the freeware/not freeware argument but more how certain people are handling things, the obvious shining example is from the Best In The World mod. Some people are borderline bullying and on a public forum rather than just trying to solve it via PM.

Again, not trying to attack...love your work. Just trying to say where a lot of us are coming from
He made a 93 thread and was told it was against the rules by numerous people including moderators. He made another thread and did exactly the same thing a week later. By doing so he immediately puts the mod makers he's using data from on the backfoot. It's rude and against the rules, if someone was bullyish or rude to him I didn't see it. I did see frustrated mod makers like Hive try to make the point of why the rules are in place.
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  #21  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Genadi View Post
He made a 93 thread and was told it was against the rules by numerous people including moderators. He made another thread and did exactly the same thing a week later. By doing so he immediately puts the mod makers he's using data from on the backfoot. It's rude and against the rules, if someone was bullyish or rude to him I didn't see it. I did see frustrated mod makers like Hive try to make the point of why the rules are in place.
I'm not trying to argue with you either because I respect everything you do as well but I'm definitely not the only person that saw rude and/or bullyish behaviour.

Believe me, I can understand the frustration. I just think certain people could've handled things better.
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  #22  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:52 AM
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I've just been made aware that during my Australian sleep time I missed alot of posts that have since been deleted. Think that's what you're referring to so sorry you're probably right I just didn't see any of it

Saddens me things devolved to that point, it really does.
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  #23  
Unread 07-10-2016, 03:55 AM
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Hive Hive is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter.1986 View Post
Real world mods are replicating real life, so everything is already there, you're basically making the mod as close as possible to what you think each worker company etc are in real life. So to have ownership over something like that I don't think is really possible. Imagine if an ex-wrestler was part of these boards and turned round and said well your using me in your mods without permission?

That's what I mean, where as mods totally made up by the person they have total ownership.
That's now how copyright works at all. And boy, do you simplify the efforts into making a real world mod. If it's that damn easy, why bother to use the work of others at all? I mean, you make it sound as if the mod pretty much codes itself...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ayden View Post
My problem (and I think most people's problems) is not the freeware/not freeware argument but more how certain people are handling things, the obvious shining example is from the Best In The World mod. Some people are borderline bullying and on a public forum rather than just trying to solve it via PM.
I'll agree with this: the argument went a bit overboard, on both sides I'd say. And I played a part in that. It could have been handled better, sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter.1986 View Post
What you have to realise here is there are a lot of new people buying the game this year that like me originally wouldn't even think to look for rules regarding modding, because the thought wouldn't even cross their minds that they aren't allowed to take a mod and change it, or use it to form a mod.
I guess we're just from different worlds, then - because it would never even cross my mind not asking for permission, whether it's a rule or not. It's simply common decency to me.

Quote:
That's the real issue we have here.
No, the real issue here is that some people have a sense of entitlement that overtrumphs the most basic common decency.
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  #24  
Unread 07-10-2016, 04:07 AM
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Just want to make a point I feel a little silly to have to make... The Mod Squad is a fun bunch of different modders and players who work together on mods for the community and each other, no more No one controls any thoughts or posts everyone is an individual and is encouraged to have their own point of view. If some don't conduct themselves well on occasion here at GDS I think it's silly to use it as a tool to somehow turn the topic to Mod Squad.


Ask the following modders and content creators if I've ever been rude, if I haven't always helped in anyway possible and given whatever work I can .... Alvarus, Big PaPa, BurningHamster, Fleisch, Hive, Justtxyank, Matt Shannon, Mr Canada, Phil Parent. More I can't remember

I've also always received the same love and permission from all of the guys above. All those guys and nearly everyone else has gone about their work the right way and as a result have all gained well earned respect.


In contrast to that there have been a handful of occasions where posts very eerily similar to BITW's have been made and created stupid drama. The outcome I feel is a result of the way in which they went about it. If BITW was treated unfairly which he may very well have (as I said I missed it) it's partly in fault of the past and what occurred. Again though that's why the rules were introduced
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  #25  
Unread 07-10-2016, 04:28 AM
wphill wphill is offline
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As a guy who simply doesn't have the time, patience or know-how to create a mod, I just wanted to say that without question, mod makers deserve to be asked weather someone can use their work.

I sometimes mess around with a few stats in the mods I download for personal preference and would never dream of going "Hey, here's this amazing mod that Fleisch poured hundreds of hours of his life into and I've increased the in-ring stats because I prefer it that way so this is now my mod version 1.0"

I also don't buy into the whole "The more mods the better" argument.
I would much rather have less mods but know that the ones we have were slaved over for months and are of the highest quality.
No offence meant at all to BITW because he's totally free to do what he wants but I have avoided his mods because I know they are rushed and will be nowhere near the quality I will get from the Mod Squad, Hive, Fleisch etc.

The bottom line is, download mods from the people you trust and you will have an awesome experience. Unfortunately that means you sometimes have to wait a little longer (I mean where is the Montreal Prelude already lol) but trust me, the experience will be worth the wait.

Last edited by wphill : 07-10-2016 at 06:28 AM.
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  #26  
Unread 07-10-2016, 05:55 AM
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Derek B Derek B is offline
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I guess I'll weigh in too....

Until the most recent edition of the CV97, which I have been working on for something like 8 years, I always gave Adam Ryland lead billing on the mod over myself. This is because he created the dataset and I have merely been adding to it and tweaking it over the years to take into account the many changes to the main data. Over the years I've also added elements from other mods, most notably That 70s Mod, but also characters from Scapino's awesome old TEW dynasty, Remianen's injury mod, Mammoth's gimmick mod and miscellaneous other bits and pieces. It's important to credit all of these people for the work they have put in, the many hours spent crafting and balancing things to work within the game as well.

It's like citing sources in any form of scientific journal or school essay or anything else.... it's important to know where the data has come from and it's important to give respect to people who have put the time in to get the mod to the state it is in. And if you are doing the minority of the work then giving yourself top billing is generally not fair to the mod maker who put in the effort to get you most of the way to a complete mod.

Even if you changed the stats for almost every worker and tweaked the contract details to make a scenario near perfect, if you were editing all the records that were already there with the base info, a location file, gimmicks, teams, game world set up, injuries, etc... then you are still a minority contributor to that mod and will always need to check with the original creator(s) to make sure it's okay to use the data and release it. It's a common courtesy and basic level of respect to show, even if the mod maker has said the data is free to use.

And with my opinions (that mirror GDS policy on the matter) out of the way, does anyone have anything else that they want to talk about? I'm sure we have more important game related things to talk about.
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  #27  
Unread 07-10-2016, 06:09 AM
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Stennick Stennick is offline
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So new subject what year did Horgan officially drop from A overNess? I have argued between 91 and 92 others have argued 93. Also Sting A* over going into Starrcade 97 yay or nay ?
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  #28  
Unread 07-10-2016, 06:13 AM
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Hive Hive is offline
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Originally Posted by Stennick View Post
So new subject what year did Horgan officially drop from A overNess? I have argued between 91 and 92 others have argued 93. Also Sting A* over going into Starrcade 97 yay or nay ?
I'd argue that Hogan was still the most over wrestler in the world untill '97 or '98.
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  #29  
Unread 07-10-2016, 07:44 AM
Peter.1986 Peter.1986 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hive View Post
That's now how copyright works at all. And boy, do you simplify the efforts into making a real world mod. If it's that damn easy, why bother to use the work of others at all? I mean, you make it sound as if the mod pretty much codes itself...



I'll agree with this: the argument went a bit overboard, on both sides I'd say. And I played a part in that. It could have been handled better, sure.



I guess we're just from different worlds, then - because it would never even cross my mind not asking for permission, whether it's a rule or not. It's simply common decency to me.



No, the real issue here is that some people have a sense of entitlement that overtrumphs the most basic common decency.

Your picking out what you want from my posts and totally ignoring the rest of it.

I am not saying any less work goes into real world mods, it's harder for the fact everyone has an opinion on it.

I'm not on about copyright, but if you are talking about copyright, you can not copyright something where you include 1,000 's of real life people without having their permission.
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  #30  
Unread 07-10-2016, 11:04 AM
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K-Nection K-Nection is offline
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guys.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5ZmVheuxpo
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