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  #1  
Unread 08-12-2018, 06:53 PM
EnforcerM EnforcerM is offline
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Default Separating positive and negative crowd management

This may be a difficult idea to explain, bear with me if you will. I feel that, perhaps, the positive side and negative side of crowd management should be separate, though I'm not sure I'm explaining this right. You see, I have been watching a lot of NJPW since the start of the year, and noticed that do not adhere to peak and valley booking. They routinely churn out multiple top-level matches in a row, and the fans seem to like it and not get burnt out. There are two ways to think about this in my humble opinion.

1. Give the ability to schedule restroom breaks. This seems to be what NJPW does, putting time between matches to allow fans to cool off without actually using a match to bring them down.

2. Separate tick boxes for management of the crowd in terms of burning them out versus making them angry with bad choices.

I hope I have explained this competently. Right now, booking like NJPW does is... heavily penalized. Example, Dominion this year, they basically put two epics that would both rate 100 A* (Jericho/Naito and Omega/Okada) back to back. I like having to manage the crowd in terms of not making my audience angry and prepping them properly, but would like more choices to avoid or turn off burnout without sacrificing the former.
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  #2  
Unread 08-12-2018, 07:13 PM
SirMichaelJordan SirMichaelJordan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnforcerM View Post
This may be a difficult idea to explain, bear with me if you will. I feel that, perhaps, the positive side and negative side of crowd management should be separate, though I'm not sure I'm explaining this right. You see, I have been watching a lot of NJPW since the start of the year, and noticed that do not adhere to peak and valley booking. They routinely churn out multiple top-level matches in a row, and the fans seem to like it and not get burnt out. There are two ways to think about this in my humble opinion.

1. Give the ability to schedule restroom breaks. This seems to be what NJPW does, putting time between matches to allow fans to cool off without actually using a match to bring them down.

2. Separate tick boxes for management of the crowd in terms of burning them out versus making them angry with bad choices.

I hope I have explained this competently. Right now, booking like NJPW does is... heavily penalized. Example, Dominion this year, they basically put two epics that would both rate 100 A* (Jericho/Naito and Omega/Okada) back to back. I like having to manage the crowd in terms of not making my audience angry and prepping them properly, but would like more choices to avoid or turn off burnout without sacrificing the former.
Crowd control or perfect show theory should vary based on product settings

I think you can already cool the crowd down by using minimum angles or short videos which are essentially rest room breaks
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  #3  
Unread 08-13-2018, 06:17 AM
Skummy Skummy is offline
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There's no need for scheduling restroom breaks, just use video packages and angles.

In the case of Dominion, there were video packages prior to each match, they didn't just flow instantly from one to the other.

I'd also argue that, in TEW terms, both had very different purposes. Omega/Okada was an "Epic" while Naito/Jericho was a "Wild Brawl".
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  #4  
Unread 08-14-2018, 05:17 AM
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alpha2117 alpha2117 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skummy View Post
There's no need for scheduling restroom breaks, just use video packages and angles.

In the case of Dominion, there were video packages prior to each match, they didn't just flow instantly from one to the other.

I'd also argue that, in TEW terms, both had very different purposes. Omega/Okada was an "Epic" while Naito/Jericho was a "Wild Brawl".

Probably not a wild brawl given its length. The match itself is 20 or so minutes long.
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  #5  
Unread 08-14-2018, 02:43 PM
EnforcerM EnforcerM is offline
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If you use an angle, does it have to be rated low? Whenever I have tried to use angles to cool the crowd, if it's anywhere within a whole grade of the match before or after, it doesn't work.

Also, how would a smaller promotion do this realistically? I know the game allows you to use video packages and such regardless of size, but I have a bit of a penchant for trying to be realistic, so as I'm not on PPV and have no "Tron", there are obviously no video packages.

I think maybe that might be why I think these two should be separate. In fact, outside of WWF/E, I don't think I've ever seen a promotion put on a match between the final two matches that was intended to cool the fans down. Think about it, going back as far as you can. In the 70s, sometimes the main event would be in the middle of the card (like when Race and Backlund faced each other), for Starrcade 83 they put on three big matches back to back to back (Valentine/Piper, Briscos/Steamboat&Yongblood, and Flair/Race), we've gone over Dominion (which, really, was more than two back to back big matches (Takahashi v. Ospreay was third from last, THEN Naito/Jericho, THEN Okada/Omega). This holds up everywhere in history you look, except WWF/E and maybe later WCW. Name any company other than WWE and WCW, and I can find at least a dozen megacards by said company that ignores the peaks and valleys thing and simply does "worst to best" booking (which honestly feels most realistic).

I have an idea. Maybe crowd burnout should exclusively be something only Entertainment companies deal with? Since only an Entertainment company ever has? Like I said, I absolutely agree with having to manage a crowd in order to not lose them or make them angry. Burnout, though, I think is not as realistic.
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  #6  
Unread 08-14-2018, 03:25 PM
SirMichaelJordan SirMichaelJordan is offline
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You can still book a angle where a worker comes out and entertain (cool down) the crowd to simulate bathroom breaks. This is done in real life also whether itís the announcer talking with the crowd or some random person giving out free merch.
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  #7  
Unread 08-14-2018, 04:06 PM
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Historian Historian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EnforcerM View Post
If you use an angle, does it have to be rated low? Whenever I have tried to use angles to cool the crowd, if it's anywhere within a whole grade of the match before or after, it doesn't work.

Also, how would a smaller promotion do this realistically? I know the game allows you to use video packages and such regardless of size, but I have a bit of a penchant for trying to be realistic, so as I'm not on PPV and have no "Tron", there are obviously no video packages.

I think maybe that might be why I think these two should be separate. In fact, outside of WWF/E, I don't think I've ever seen a promotion put on a match between the final two matches that was intended to cool the fans down. Think about it, going back as far as you can. In the 70s, sometimes the main event would be in the middle of the card (like when Race and Backlund faced each other), for Starrcade 83 they put on three big matches back to back to back (Valentine/Piper, Briscos/Steamboat&Yongblood, and Flair/Race), we've gone over Dominion (which, really, was more than two back to back big matches (Takahashi v. Ospreay was third from last, THEN Naito/Jericho, THEN Okada/Omega). This holds up everywhere in history you look, except WWF/E and maybe later WCW. Name any company other than WWE and WCW, and I can find at least a dozen megacards by said company that ignores the peaks and valleys thing and simply does "worst to best" booking (which honestly feels most realistic).

I have an idea. Maybe crowd burnout should exclusively be something only Entertainment companies deal with? Since only an Entertainment company ever has? Like I said, I absolutely agree with having to manage a crowd in order to not lose them or make them angry. Burnout, though, I think is not as realistic.

This is why I don't play with the perfect show theory on. Because while I love the idea in theory, and I think crowd management is important, I've gone to probably 1100 live wrestling shows (don't judge me) over the course of my life, from WWE size to ones with ten people (and I might be generous there) in the crowd. I've attended probably 20 PWG shows alone and they completely ignore perfect show theory, and they just take you from match to match to match. Most independent companies run this way, as they don't have the budget to cool you down and most guys are wanting to go out and tear the house down to try and get noticed.
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  #8  
Unread 08-14-2018, 09:55 PM
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Perfect Show Theory is like most theories utter crap. It actually doesn't work. Obviously if a show is longer than a couple of hours breaks are needed to allow for bathroom, food etc which is why live shows have intermissions for the WWE. PST isn't that though it is an attempt to say people can't stay entertained for anything more than a relative short time and that just isn't true. If something is good and engrossing people are happy to keep watching for a full 2 hours without having to be calmed down. Sure some people need more breaks but PST really is just something created by writers to try to justify their existence.
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  #9  
Unread 08-15-2018, 06:30 AM
Skummy Skummy is offline
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"Perfect Show Theory" absolutely exists, though not necessarily in the way it's represented in TEW. What we have in TEW is probably the closest we can get to the kind of crowd management that goes into booking a show without going into unfeasible levels of micromanagement.


When booking a show, you should follow broadly the same approach as when booking a match, and manage the ebb and flow of the audience's emotional investment in what they're watching.

You want to build the crowd up in the opener, cool them down in the middle, and build them back up to their emotional climax for the main event. You can absolutely lose the audience if you don't follow that format.

In TEW terms, it only really takes into account the style of match (as far as I know), but in reality you're just as likely to factor in the nature of the finish, and the heel/face roles therein. If you give the crowd four DQ finishes in a row, they're going to lose interest. If you give them nothing but heel wins for an hour, they're going to lose interest, because you haven't given them that emotional release of cheering for the babyface to win.

Personally, I tend to work shows with only 4-6 matches, and I have a very specific format for how that works. You use the opening match to establish how wrestling works, and what the crowd can expect to see, and then gradually subvert those expectations as you go along - a heel getting caught trying to cheat in the opener just makes the audience madder when a heel in the third match gets away with it, for example, or a count out finish early on teaches the audience how that works, and so they're more invested when a babyface manages to just beat the count in a later match, or an opening match where the wrestlers never once leave the ring makes a match full of dives and brawling out on the floor seem more exciting because it's perceived as a break from the norm.

A well booked show takes all of these things into account to manage the crowd's expectations, and their emotional response, all the way through.


It's not always as explicit as it (out of necessity) is in TEW; you can cool down the audience by having just the opening of a match involve a lot of stalling, rather than giving up an entire match to that purpose. You can build the crowd back up just with a particularly fired up entrance for a babyface, and then take that reaction away by having the heel jump him as soon as the match begins.
But TEW doesn't (and shouldn't, IMO) allow for that level of micro-management, so what we have is as good a substitute as we can get.


To use the Starrcade '83 example, those three matches are all big, but all drastically different. They all serve a different purpose in terms of what type of match they are, the psychology of the match, and so on.

And, again, supercards are a little different. The audience have come in with the expectation of seeing bigger matches than they'd seen on an "ordinary show", so their response needs to be managed differently.

Similarly with the PWG comparison - while PWG absolutely will be taking into account the positioning of each match on the card and what purpose each match serves, they know they have an audience of diehard wrestling fans, so have to manage a different set of expectations. This would be closer to EnforcerM's idea of having Perfect Show Theory only apply to Entertainment promotions, in that it should probably be affected by the company's product settings. Which, to some extent, I believe it is.
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  #10  
Unread 08-15-2018, 03:51 PM
SirMichaelJordan SirMichaelJordan is offline
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Nothing have to be perfect. You dont HAVE to follow it when its on unless you are a power gamer.

The small indy promotions Ive been to always had intermission.
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  #11  
Unread 08-15-2018, 04:54 PM
EnforcerM EnforcerM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skummy View Post
You want to build the crowd up in the opener, cool them down in the middle, and build them back up to their emotional climax for the main event. You can absolutely lose the audience if you don't follow that format.
NJPW wholly disagrees with you here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skummy View Post
But TEW doesn't (and shouldn't, IMO) allow for that level of micro-management, so what we have is as good a substitute as we can get.
Is it as good as we can get? I'd wager my suggestion would be better than the current system. I'm sorry, but after decades of wrestling shows, I just have not seen this burnout thing more than a couple times, despite seeing big matches back to back frequently. If micromanagement isn't feasible, then separate the obvious negative side from the extremely situational positive side. Then those of us who want realism can turn off burnout while leaving audience anger at crap on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skummy View Post
To use the Starrcade '83 example, those three matches are all big, but all drastically different. They all serve a different purpose in terms of what type of match they are, the psychology of the match, and so on.
From the hours I have spent in the game, I believe it is based on match ratings more than type, unless cool down is used specifically. Using Starrcade 83... Piper/Valentine was a Wild Brawl, Briscos/Steamboat&Youngblood was a Spectable, and Flair/Race was an Epic. If you book Starrcade exactly as in real life in this game, you will get absolutely crushed by the penalties for burnout and lose 15-25 points off the main event. I know this as I've simulated it to test it. The game currently does not allow big matches to follow each other with PST on. And I don't disagree with half of PST, but I do disagree with the burnout half. And evidence shows it really isn't usually a big deal. Sure, it has happened a couple times (like when Hogan and Rock faced each other at WM), but the instances are few and very far between, and all in WWF/E.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skummy View Post
And, again, supercards are a little different. The audience have come in with the expectation of seeing bigger matches than they'd seen on an "ordinary show", so their response needs to be managed differently.
Aha! New suggestion: Slow Build note should have automatic cooldown effect on the audience.
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