Modding Discussion Thread

[D-Lyrium]

Ok, following all the drama that's gone down recently, I figure it'd be best to have a place to discuss it in a civil manner without tanking the various mod threads.

From now on, please feel free to discuss any issues you have related to the act of modding, rather than specific mods, in this thread and this thread only. Leave the mod threads for discussion about the actual mod itself.


Edit: Alright, so, my original plan to move all the discussion posts from the 2000 mod thread into here failed miserably, but... er... have at it. ¬_¬

[Smasher1311]

Good call - though I reckon things could easily go south in this thread as well. I hope everything can work.

[MHero]

Yeah, fictional verses have worker similarities at base level. But therein lies the differences between real world mods and fictional mods.

Real world mods are benefitted from having a set structure in place. You take a year in wrestling and you build the mod around that. You've got footage of the workers doing what they were doing from that year. You've got the iconic stars, the underrated favourites and the notoriously political workers. You've literally got the information you need to build the mod up.

Fictional verses have a ton of under the hood stuff that people don't necessarily know about. To peel back the curtain a little bit, Thunderverse Diamond started development on the 10th of January this year. We've spent at least six months purely discussing what to do with the world and each region. We've had to sit and think about where the big names should be placed, what happens to some indie stars and any surprise moves that we can pull off. Not only that, we've still got to come up with unique characters (my avatar says hello. Or he would if he could talk. ¬_¬) complete with renders and stats and such. Whilst you do have the old wrestling stereotypes, it's how they're implemented in the mod that makes them unique. It's a very baseline thought to look at a worker and go "Urgh, another brawling Irish man" without analyzing the context of the worker in the mod.

Whilst the above might seem like a tangent and it by no means sullies the work real world mod makers put into getting each worker picture perfect (or perfect by their own subjective thought), it highlights the difference between the two philosophies of mod making we've got going on in here. I'm not quite entirely sure why fictional verses were even brought into the discussion here but as someone more grounded in the mod making process of fictional verses, I thought I'd just throw my two pence in.

Posted this but it got deleted by clean up (Damn you PRIDE LYRIUUUUUUUUUUM!)

Genuinely curious to hear a RW modder's take on this line of thought and thought I'd throw it out in here for open discussion.

[D-Lyrium]

Ok, so I found the posts I was meant to put here. The coding got screwed up though, so if any of these posts are attributed to the wrong person, my apologies.

Originally Posted by Jaysin

It might seem like it's a bit serious, but what if someone took the thunderverse and imported 100 workers and said "bingo, new mod"?

We want more people to get into mod making, but he's going about it all wrong.

Originally Posted by Hive

I don't know about you, but when I put hundreds of hours into creating something, I too tend to take what happens to my creation somewhat seriously.

Now I can't speak for those whose mods have been used for this project, of course, but I personally applaud guys like Jaysin making sure that mod makers are respected and their work protected. And in the end, if that is not done, the most dedicated mod makers will stop producing material here and leave.

Originally Posted by MHero

I understand you (and Jaysin's point above yours) but either posting in here ripping the mick out of the guy or straight up calling him out isn't going to either get work protected or more mod makers (If I was a new mod maker, I'd be wondering what is the point based on the reactions in here).

I get that people want guidelines and rules to posting mods but there are ways to go about it and treating everyone with a baseline level of respect seems tantamount to getting more people interested in modding.

Looking at BiTW's credit lists, he's credited everyone he's used assets from. As jhd pointed out NWAvsWWF is seemingly AWOL and all his work has been marked in the 2013 Mod Index as free to use. Genadi's work I understand is on an ask to use basis but that's where something like a free to use locations/angles/titles pack for RW mods would come in handy. BiTW's posted in here he got permission from Fleisch so it's a case of jumping the gun there.

I get that he's used stuff from yourself and other modders before without asking permission first and I can certainly understand how annoying that is. But imagine it from the other point of view - it'd certainly be frustrating if you were a new mod maker who'd used someone's mod as a base (presumably someone you greatly admired for mod making abilities in the first place) and then would have that person or two/three others jumping in making mildly sardonic comments about your abilities to produce a mod.

Best case scenario? We draw a line under all this and work together as a modding community to establish some sort of barebones baseline mod starter pack that everyone can use. That way, modders new and old don't have to go through the slog of adding a ton of locations and titles and such which allows them more time to work on the important parts of a mod.

Originally Posted by TsuMirren

You should wait for permission before you announce, it's as simple as that. Anyone denying that either is someone desperate to play or someone who mods fantasy Verse databases.

I can't even begin to detail the time that has gone in to getting the UK and European data together and working. From working on DOTT with Eric back when it first came out, to offering Genadi help back in 11 or so, doing my own work on mods and joining The Mod Squad I must have put in at least 6 months of actual time at the very least. Reading results, piecing info together, checking and cross checking dates, editing future workers so they don't debut as geniuses, watching youtube clips, going over and over articles just hoping to find an age. Getting lost on a tangent, finding random detail, having 6 browser tabs...previously windows...open to cross check various results listings. It's just insane, you go from researcher to scout to booker and all to ensure a D+ isn't wrongly a C- or a promotion doesn't die in 6 months because the game mechanics are screwed.

Originally Posted by TsuMirren

You should wait for permission before you announce, it's as simple as that. Anyone denying that either is someone desperate to play or someone who mods fantasy Verse databases.

Originally Posted by Swanton

Nice, you really think that it's easy to make a fantasy mod? "Oh, just come up with 1,500 or so workers, anywhere from 30 to 60 promotions and all without them being blatantly just the exact same as a promotion or worker from reality. [Last sentence redacted]

Originally Posted by Packerman

Now, I think my friend might have been blindsided in anger, so I think he might have gone a little bit overboard on the last sentence, but I do think that this whole "must ask permission" thing is grade A BS. What happened to when we were an open community who didn't care when someone created a mod using your database?

Originally Posted by TsuMirren

Step back and read my comment though, then mull it over. Verse makes don't care about permission, because why anyone bother even copying one? Futhermore, why would anyone make a historical version of one?

Oh and if you can come up with 1,500 unique workers then well done. No tough Texan, no brawling Irish, no well rounded Americans, no "family" of well trained Canadians, no masked Mexicans, no Japanese workers who are stiff or high tying though can tell a story. No hardcore guys, no respected Indy. 250 unique maybe, but I'm involved with a Verse just now and you can see blatant similarities. You need some for context, no matter how out there they are.

Originally Posted by Hive

There's a difference between using a mod as basis for a completely different mod in which you've put in hours upon hours of work to make it fresh, unique and different... and spending 2 hours tweaking some contracts in an existing mod, then calling it your own.

But then I take it that you've never made a mod of this scale of your own? I usually find it's the non-mod makers who can't see the reason in taking the courtesy to ask for permissions.

Originally Posted by packerman120

Hive, I get your point, but I feel the last part was unnecessary. But as long as the original mod maker is given credit, why do you care? Shouldn't we be as open a community as possible? Hell, it's a TEW mod, and I understand that you put a metric shit ton of work into your mods, and I respect that. But it's still a TEW mod. And for that matter, as long as PROPER CREDIT is given in the mod and in the release, it shouldn't matter. I really just wish all of us were more open and made the mods freeware again (like they were last year, and we had no issues!), and we could just avoid this drama and have fun with an awesome game!

Originally Posted by Hive

Look, it's a simple question of saying "hey, I know you've put in several hundred hours of work into this mod - so asking for permission before using it to release a mod of my own is the least I can do". I don't understand how showing that simply courtesy to the mod makers is such a horrible thought to some.

For the record, I've never rejected a single request to use my mods - either in hole or just parts thereof. And believe me, there have been quite a few requests. Some made it to released mods, others didn't. But I never rejected a polite request. I always offer encouragement, even helping with suggestions, advice and ideas if asked.

Originally Posted by packerman120

Okay, in that case, fine, make it so that you have to ask for permission, just as a common courtesy. But why do we (not you Hive) have to break one of the core rules of the forums and attack someone just because they forgot to ask for your permission? If anything, just calmly PM them and talk it out there, and I'm sure whoever the person is would be fine giving proper credit. No need to publicly flame anothers mod for it. And Hive, I apologize if I offended you in any regard in this matter.

Originally Posted by MHero

To provide a further, more detailed level of backstory into the universal world of the mod(s) in question as well as flex creative wings and show a different side of the mod(s).

And from experience, I've had people ask to do Thunderverse stuff to feel like part of the overarching community and give something back to the team who created it. It's happened with the Cornellverse over the years and the historical mods are widely regarded as some of the best work ever seen on these boards.

Yeah, fictional verses have worker similarities at base level. But therein lies the differences between real world mods and fictional mods.

Real world mods are benefitted from having a set structure in place. You take a year in wrestling and you build the mod around that. You've got footage of the workers doing what they were doing from that year. You've got the iconic stars, the underrated favourites and the notoriously political workers. You've literally got the information you need to build the mod up.

Fictional verses have a ton of under the hood stuff that people don't necessarily know about. To peel back the curtain a little bit, Thunderverse Diamond started development on the 10th of January this year. We've spent at least six months purely discussing what to do with the world and each region. We've had to sit and think about where the big names should be placed, what happens to some indie stars and any surprise moves that we can pull off. Not only that, we've still got to come up with unique characters (my avatar says hello. Or he would if he could talk. ¬_¬) complete with renders and stats and such. Whilst you do have the old wrestling stereotypes, it's how they're implemented in the mod that makes them unique. It's a very baseline thought to look at a worker and go "Urgh, another brawling Irish man" without analyzing the context of the worker in the mod.

Whilst the above might seem like a tangent and it by no means sullies the work real world mod makers put into getting each worker picture perfect (or perfect by their own subjective thought), it highlights the difference between the two philosophies of mod making we've got going on in here. I'm not quite entirely sure why fictional verses were even brought into the discussion here but as someone more grounded in the mod making process of fictional verses, I thought I'd just throw my two pence in.

[Idolized]

As a mod maker myself, I thought that the community as a whole had moved away from being super protective about the data in their mods, thus assigning them "Freeware" for the betterment of the community as a whole. Now there seems to be a push to protect their data and restrict it from being used without written permission. I HATE this new trend of being super protective about things. I mean, I get that people don't want someone to just convert their mod from 2013 and call it their own as a 2016 version. But for me personally, whatever I create, be it angle packs, entire mods, or graphics will always be freeware - and by that I mean that people do not need to ask me to use it. If completing my 2004 mod leads to someone creating a 2005 mod - that only benefits everyone else.

* * * * * * * * *

With that out of the way - I can't seem to figure out how to set a worker's Hall of Immortal image to a different image than their default profile one.

[Jaysin]

Originally Posted by Idolized

With that out of the way - I can't seem to figure out how to set a worker's Hall of Immortal image to a different image than their default profile one.

Its an ager feature.

[Idolized]

Originally Posted by Jaysin

Its an ager feature.

Literally the only place I haven't looked :P

[Peter.1986]

I do think we have to look at the big picture here.

I wouldn't buy this game without real world mods, for me I just can't get into playing with made up people.

Also I do like to mod and edit things, I probably don't have much time, but I have tried to either help where I can or test where I can. Now I'm not interested in credit at all. Don't get me wrong if I made a mod I would like people to know I did it just so in future people may one to me for help, but you have to realise with a real world mod, you are not making the mod up yourself, you are actually replicating real life.

I can understand getting upset if it is a fictional mod, because that is that persons own ideas,

Adam could not sell the game with a real life mod as the database because he could easily get taken to court and lose, so all real life mods are made without licences and therefore are not any persons own ideas, you're replicating real life, locations, workers, relationships, everything is an actual copy of something. The only real life mods that the maker actually has any sort of stamp on is the alternate mods, but they still use real people, locations and companies.


So I'm on the side of really you can't complain if someone wants to use a database you have made based on real life, because that idea is not yours, the world is not yours, the permission to actually use the names and pictures are not yours.

I do just want to say though, all mod makers deserve a hell of a lot of credit, especially those who's mods I've used (off the top of my head) justxyank, Genedi and the mod squad, give (I think) fleish, all deserve the credit for what they've done for real world mods, there's a lot of names I've missed off, but as long as you are credited (you should be given the option because the mod could be changed to look so bad you don't want asscoating with it) then you should be happy. Working together and making better mods is what we should all aim for.

If we have 3 different versions of 2016 then that's a good thing because 1 mod maker might be good at putting the mod together but be terrible with stats, another guy could be bad at putting mods together and use the first guys mod and change it into a much much better mod.

I suppose I've gone on a bit, is anyone up for making a celebrity based mod?

[MrCreative]

Originally Posted by Peter.1986

I can understand getting upset if it is a fictional mod, because that is that persons own ideas,

Adam could not sell the game with a real life mod as the database because he could easily get taken to court and lose, so all real life mods are made without licences and therefore are not any persons own ideas, you're replicating real life, locations, workers, relationships, everything is an actual copy of something. The only real life mods that the maker actually has any sort of stamp on is the alternate mods, but they still use real people, locations and companies.

So I'm on the side of really you can't complain if someone wants to use a database you have made based on real life, because that idea is not yours, the world is not yours, the permission to actually use the names and pictures are not yours.

I'm fully of the belief that this game would be even more niche that it is, without the ability to have real world mods. It might not even be financially viable.

I just wanted to add though, I feel you're contradicting yourself with fictional vs non-fictional. The ratings, data collected etc are certainly original works, there's no single definitive way to measure a worker. It's a mod maker's ideas how good a person is at a given time, whether workers should have colour ratings, or not, whether they are a particular size, body weight. Even Ownership structures... I don't wish to bring an external debate here, but I know that there's been many discussions between myself, Genadi and justtxyank on how best to simulate WCW's ownership structures

There's many ways in which work into a mod is original to a point, and very much so I think people have a right to complain if someone wants to use their work without permission. As you'll know any kind of mod takes a certain kind of care and attention to detail into it to be in any way a good mod. What I don't like to see personally are two things:-

People mass importing a mod, and only making very small changes to the databases and not holding it to a high standard. Especially when lots of issues become apparent in that mod because worker stats are overpowered, or details are wrong because often - a worker created for a mod in 1997 is meant for 1997, not 1992 or 1993.

I also think that sometimes, credit given to people without asking is actually a reflection of that persons' work than the person creating the mod. If the details are wrong, and the mod attributes that part of the work to you (and not the author), then people will be less trusting of your work in future.

Asking for credit is great for a couple of things, its an endorsement but also oftentimes you will find people will be very much willing to help you out with mod specific changes and polish. There's many great members of the community that do this, TsuMirren, Genadi, justtxyank, Hive, Matt Shannon to name a few who are also great with feedback as well.

Everybody wants more mods but more importantly, everybody wants great mods. That's why I think communication and collaboration is so important. Everybody's mods become suddenly better when we're all discussing things and helping each other. It isn't helped though if some people are out for themselves and just want to take work from others and take credit themselves, without also contributing to the community as a whole.

[Genadi]

I was one of the first modder to make freeware a thing, in fact I made a mission statement thread several years to encourage it and put my own work up for grabs. Nothing but more drama came as a result and somehow people were calling me selfish.... So yeah that's my take on freeware. Sounded good in theory but in practice did nothing for the boards but add drama.

If people are protective of their work now I completely understand it.



Thing about BITW's thread is he broke forum rules. They're stickied and quite clear so anyone defending him maybe talk to Adam about the rules instead of other member?

[Justin]

I just want to play the mods.

Like, all of them.

I (heart) all of you guys.

My love for you will always be freeware.

[packerman120]

Was what G said actually a problem? Because that just seems heavily unbelievable for me in that people actually had issues with that.

[Genadi]

Originally Posted by packerman120

Was what G said actually a problem? Because that just seems heavily unbelievable for me in that people actually had issues with that.

No, I totally made it up for added drama

There weren't always stickied rules about permission, they came about for a reason and events I really don't feel like recollecting. Nonetheless the rules are there, whether you think they're BS or not. Adam would be the one to talk to about that not the people adhering and enforcing them.

[packerman120]

Originally Posted by Genadi

No, I totally made it up for added drama

There weren't always stickied rules about permission, they came about for a reason and events I really don't feel like recollecting. Nonetheless the rules are there, whether you think they're BS or not. Adam would be the one to talk to about that not the people adhering and enforcing them.

I mean, I do believe you, but forgive me for thinking that sounds just a bit crazy and unbelievable. Makes little sense in the grand scheme of things.

[Hive]

Originally Posted by Peter.1986

I can understand getting upset if it is a fictional mod, because that is that persons own ideas,

Adam could not sell the game with a real life mod as the database because he could easily get taken to court and lose, so all real life mods are made without licences and therefore are not any persons own ideas, you're replicating real life, locations, workers, relationships, everything is an actual copy of something. The only real life mods that the maker actually has any sort of stamp on is the alternate mods, but they still use real people, locations and companies.

So I'm on the side of really you can't complain if someone wants to use a database you have made based on real life, because that idea is not yours, the world is not yours, the permission to actually use the names and pictures are not yours.

No offense, but it's pretty clear that you don't know how it feels to spend hundreds of hours of your life creating a mod. Once again, it's the people who doesn't mod themselves that are the strongest proponents for the "just do as you please with no regard to anyone" philosophy.

It baffles me to no end that something as simple as "Hey, we'd like you to simply throw us a PM asking for permission as a sign of respect" can be objected to so fiercely. We're not asking you for money or your first born, we're asking for respect for our hard work. How on earth can that be perceived as being too much to ask for???

To me, this kind of behaviour is both shocking and sad. And while I cannot speak for others, I can tell you that if Adam's rules about asking permission are lifted, I'll personally stop making mods for the masses. We modders spend soooo much time you non-modders probably wouldn't believe it trying to create a flush gameworld and a great experience for others for free - and if we can't even be shown the simplest form of gratitude and respect for our work, then why bother?