RAW (Spoilers)

[Self]

Batista = Ultimate Warrior... only, you know, better.

[djthefunkchris]

Originally Posted by Self

Batista = Ultimate Warrior... only, you know, better.

That's debateable.

Honestly think Warrior was just as good. The problem is that Warrior ended up thinking he was as good as he was portrayed. Pluss, he tried to be hard to understand... Where Batista is just plain hard to understand (weather or not he's mad, upset, happy, etc).

[Self]

You know what, to be honest I saw very little of Warrior's stuff. Maybe he was better than the internets let on. I know he played his character well enough, and his promos were awesomely bizarre.

I just didn't want the connection to sound like I was dissing Batista. I don't relate to the character, but I respect the performer.

[djthefunkchris]

Originally Posted by Self

You know what, to be honest I saw very little of Warrior's stuff. Maybe he was better than the internets let on. I know he played his character well enough, and his promos were awesomely bizarre.

I just didn't want the connection to sound like I was dissing Batista. I don't relate to the character, but I respect the performer.

He was a brawler, he didn't particularly have a strong looking clothesline, kind of like Batista's. He could pick just about anyone up and slam them (that was the thing back then).

Big moves, slow builds, etc. There isn't nothing that Batista does currently, that I don't think Warrior could have done back then... heck, nothing Batista does currently makes me think Warrior couldn't do it now. In fact, I think Batista should give a bit of Credit to warrior for stealing his rope shake.

Warrior was able to get the crowd going everybit as good as anyone back in his prime, from what I seen. Probably better then Batista to be honest.

I was not a fan of Warrior, but I am a fan of the Batista character.

[The Masked Orange]

Originally Posted by Self

You know what, to be honest I saw very little of Warrior's stuff. Maybe he was better than the internets let on. I know he played his character well enough, and his promos were awesomely bizarre.

I just didn't want the connection to sound like I was dissing Batista. I don't relate to the character, but I respect the performer.

Self? I'm ashamed of you, didn't want to diss batista.

I respect evry in ring performer, being an in-ring performer is extremely difficult.

What I don't respect is the push he is getting, he doesn't desrve all the title reigns he has gotten.

He can't properly cut a promo, he has just one expression, I'm Batista, and I will win.

I like people like Hardy and Orton and Jericho because they have so much to offer in their promo's, yes Hardy and Orton aren't that good either, but they are evolving, Batista hasn't changed since evolution, or since being deacon Batista.

Us sycophants like simple promos, but cutting the same old promo for just under a decade isn't the verge of exitement.

Batista was used to fill a void between Big Show and Triple H when Lesnar flew from the cuckoo nest, and to our bad luck, people started liking him.

[The Masked Orange]

Oh yeah, sycophants means "sicko fans", sorry but I was watching word up.

So sycophants is taking the mic outa Jericho, but now I'm using it to replace the words "general public". It's a Jerichoalism.

[justtxyank]

I actually think the Warrior gets a bad rap where he doesn't deserve it. His match with Hogan at WM was surprising entertaining. I thought he could give entertaining matches for the time.

To me what really hurt him was he never evolved at all, and when he came back in the mid-late 90s his matches were terrible and didn't mesh at all with an evolving wrestling scene.

[VTial]

To summarize:

The Ultimate Warrior was one of the most over wrestlers to ever milk the 5 moves of doom.

From Wikipedia:

* Finishing and signature moves
o Gorilla press drop[1]
o Running splash[1]
o Flying shoulder block[1]
o Multiple running clotheslines[1]
o Running powerslam

Batista is the pioneer of the 3 moves of doom:

Spear
Spinebuster
Batista Bomb


...or 4 moves if you count the rock-a-my-baby tilt a whirl lift he does at times or the "cause I don't know of any way to make this match look good while dishing out damage" clothesline transitions he often makes.

Actual Post:

Ultimate Warrior was better than Batista. Lex Luger WAS better than Batista.

This isn't factoring wrestling skills alone. Batista has a slight edge there.

The thing going against these three is that their styles aren't reliant on skills but on how well they entertain the crowd and make themselves look good.

To this end, Batista looks worse.

Name me one other huge mainstream power guy that makes the weakest powerbomb you've ever seen besides Batista?

At his weakest, small muscles Ultimate Warrior made his gorilla slam look more powerful than coming back from an injury Batista. There was even a stint of time when people wondered whether Batista could lift Taker in their feud because he looked so weak for his physique and his gimmick. Even Lex at least made the torture rack LOOK good.

With that said, Batista has the edge in overall wrestling because he injured less people than Warrior and he does better looking moves than Warrior in general (he relies on his other moves looking good so casual fans won't notice his weak looking powerbomb and inability to have any 6 moves of doom exciting) and he has a slight edge in selling moves than Luger but that's partially because Luger didn't need to make a career out of selling to his opponents to draw a match.

They're just two overall different beasts that people lump together because Batista does the rope shake.

Ultimate Warrior's claim to fame was that he was more powerful than anyone including Hulk Hogan and the Undertaker so that you would need to do something to beat him. He did this not just because he was a monster but because he was a human monster. He didn't no-sell many of the damages he took, he combined no-selling with activity as if he was channeling some other worldly energy to give him the power. The guy didn't just run at the start of the match, he constantly stomps his feet and his whole body language was energetic. If you guys saw the Warrior at his prime and felt the height of his popularity, it was like looking at a guy who's already Hulked Up even before the match started. There was none of these Batista getting beaten to a pulp by an intelligent fighter and wait!~ Thar she blows, Batista no-selling. Batista shaking the ropes. Batista thumbs down! Batistahhh Bomb! With the Warrior, it was more like the beginning of the end. Gorilla Press Slam. That's it. Ballgame. Those who know MMA would think Batista was Big Nog and Ultimate Warrior was Shogun to use as an analogy if you saw both guys at their best.

Fact is...

Batista looked to be the weakest physique power wrestler the WWE had have pushed to the mainstream. (This ignores lanky and large monsters like Khali btw)

Batista's promo making skills are way worse than the Warrior

Batista would not look good today as a main eventer if Lesnar and Luger at peak wrestling condition were in the title picture.

Batista only got to the top because Orton botched up and got injured (if I remember correctly)

This isn't to say I'm a Batista hater. I'm actually a fan of both him and the Ultimate Warrior so for the sake of objectivity:

Here's what Batista has over the Ultimate Warrior:

Batista is a more realistic seller than the Ultimate Warrior. He's so good, no other power wrestler comes to mind that can get himself over in a match by constantly getting beat up by smaller and weaker wrestlers until he hulks up for the Batista Bomb

Batista is much more versatile than The Ultimate Warrior. I actually think he can look as good as the British Bulldog technically if he were to focus on that more. His spears are some of the best looking because he looks like a modern amateur wrestler trying to take down his opponents rather than ram them. He angles his clothesline so well that you think it actually looks good rather than so bad from a casual fan perspective. When he's motivated, he is better at using his technical grapping skills than his power moves. (which all look horrible)

Batista has a better sense of wrestling psychology. Alot of the times, Warrior focuses too much on himself that he makes his opponent look worse than they are. Batista is the reverse in that he makes his opponent look good, he just doesn't have anything to make himself look good especially with his power style gimmick.

[wilts]

Originally Posted by The Masked Orange

............Batista hasn't changed since evolution, or since being deacon Batista........
........but cutting the same old promo for just under a decade isn't the verge of exitement.

Below may or may not be my opinion, but for now we will just call it an observation.
Triple H : Has been cutting the same promo for so long I can't even find a good joke to match the time frame, and he looks set to do so for as long as he lives.

The Rock : After they ditched the Rocky Maivia gimmick, whether he was face, heel, part of the Nation, part of the Corporation, part of Rock 'n' Sock, he used the same promo day in day out for pretty much his whole career.

Steve Austin : After they ditched the Ringmaster gimmicks, whether he was face, heel, tweener, whatever he would role out the same promo time and time again.

Vince McMahon : Lets not even go there, but same promo time after time.

Hulk Hogan : Someone forgot to tell Hogan that the script he got the first week wasn't then set in stone for the next 50 years.....

The Ultimate Warrior : Excuse me Mr Warrior, but this is a 1 way street, no turning, no changing, just keep on going.

Goldust : Gold lights, freaky crap, freaky guy, same freaky ass promo.


Need I go on? None of these guys have really evolved since they got over, it has been the same thing time and time again, and with the exception of the "smarks" on the net, the fans eat it up time and time again

So I wouldn't say you are going to fail if you run the same promo all the time, just that you will if you do it with the skill and charisma level of Batista....

[djthefunkchris]

Yeah, Warrior would come out, pumping his arms every time he got hit (kind of like "Raising the roof"), and stomp around.

I think allot of times people get all caught up in "Selling" and accuse what's supposed to be part of the match as no-selling.

To me No-Selling is having your arm worked the whole match, and then forgetting about it when it's your turn to go on offense. But the things like Hulk Hogan laying on his back half the match, then starting to HULK up by getting Power from his HULKAMANIACS OUT THERE BROTHER! That was part of the character/match. He wasn't no selling, he was selling the fact that he was gaining power from the crowd. This power made him whole again, and more powerful then when the match first started.

That's one thing that always gets me when talking about him, people always says he doesn't sell. HE sold, just heeled during the match (The gimmick was a direct rip-off of the HULK... Hulk gets mad, Hulk gets stronger). Wouldn't matter if he hurt himself for real, he would "Act" like he wasn't in pain during that time, and as time goes by and more things are learned about him, we all know he was in quite a bit of pain just being in the ring most of the time from the 90's onward.

His problem was who he would and would not lose to. That's basically it, and you had to pay him allot of money, because he made you allot of money.

[tristram]

Have to agree on Lex Luger. The torture rack was a sick move, you almost felt like you were hearing a blokes back cracking. I felt Luger was very good in 1997, and had the momentum to gain the Championship. I think it was Uncensored 1997 when he was at his peak when in the main event, nWo v WCW v Team Piper, Luger racked the entire nWo out of the elimination match only to be screwed at the end. The worst thing that happened to Luger's career was to go to the Wolfpack, he just didn't suit it, and then from there the comeback with Liz as the Total Package and without the name Lex Luger was kinda silly. But I think that was Vince Russo's era, so the less said the better. That clown had no idea.

[wilts]

Originally Posted by djthefunkchris

Yeah, Warrior would come out, pumping his arms every time he got hit (kind of like "Raising the roof"), and stomp around.

I think allot of times people get all caught up in "Selling" and accuse what's supposed to be part of the match as no-selling.

To me No-Selling is having your arm worked the whole match, and then forgetting about it when it's your turn to go on offense. But the things like Hulk Hogan laying on his back half the match, then starting to HULK up by getting Power from his HULKAMANIACS OUT THERE BROTHER! That was part of the character/match. He wasn't no selling, he was selling the fact that he was gaining power from the crowd. This power made him whole again, and more powerful then when the match first started.

That's one thing that always gets me when talking about him, people always says he doesn't sell. HE sold, just heeled during the match (The gimmick was a direct rip-off of the HULK... Hulk gets mad, Hulk gets stronger). Wouldn't matter if he hurt himself for real, he would "Act" like he wasn't in pain during that time, and as time goes by and more things are learned about him, we all know he was in quite a bit of pain just being in the ring most of the time from the 90's onward.

His problem was who he would and would not lose to. That's basically it, and you had to pay him allot of money, because he made you allot of money.

Chris, take this as some big ol' man love!!!!
I have been saying this for years, to the point that I am now bored of saying it so don't get into the conversation any more when this comes up.

Another thing that people seem to confuse is no-selling and stupidity/lack of psychology. When talking about no-selling it is always talked about as being intentional, whereas in reality it is just what you have said, remembering to work it if you arm or leg has been pounded on for 30 mins, and most no-selling these days seems to just be stupidity or lack of psychology (read: brains...)

Anyway, thanks for that post. It made my day!

[justtxyank]

1) Lex Luger is underrated. When he was in his prime (read as before he put on too much muscle and got old) he was so athletic that even though he could pull off real wrestling moves, you could buy him in the ring. He was a super strong genetic freak that could fly around the ring (I mean as in he could jump around and be athletic, not high risk moves). His torture rack was awesome and his flying forearm was believable. His late career WCW stuff was brutal, but that was because he was old and couldn't move around anymore.

2) I strongly, STRONGLY disagree with the poster above who seems to say that HHH, Austin, and The Rock, even Hogan, cut the same promo forever. Style elements may have been the same, but they definitely displayed creativity, spontaneity, and an understanding of what fed the crowd. (HHH less by far than the other 3 in that group.) Batista has none of that.

[VTial]

Whew! That last reply needed multiple more edits. Shouldn't have posted that quick.

Anyway, I'd just like to clarify that Luger wasn't a bad seller. It's just the fact that he constantly oversells that makes him seem much worse than Batista at wrestling psychology.

Here's a youtube vid I got from Google to prove this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lg8jl0oNzUg

I believe there was even one where Luger sold to trash being thrown at the ring but I don't have a link to it. That's actually what I thought would be the top result if I searched for Luger over-selling.

[justtxyank]

Originally Posted by tristram

Have to agree on Lex Luger. The torture rack was a sick move, you almost felt like you were hearing a blokes back cracking. I felt Luger was very good in 1997, and had the momentum to gain the Championship. I think it was Uncensored 1997 when he was at his peak when in the main event, nWo v WCW v Team Piper, Luger racked the entire nWo out of the elimination match only to be screwed at the end. The worst thing that happened to Luger's career was to go to the Wolfpack, he just didn't suit it, and then from there the comeback with Liz as the Total Package and without the name Lex Luger was kinda silly. But I think that was Vince Russo's era, so the less said the better. That clown had no idea.

Luger was great in the 90s all the way until early 1998. That's when he died. He got bigger in 98 than he should have. If you look at him in 97 he was lean muscle. He was so athletic it was crazy.

Anyway, Hogan's selling abilities are underrated as well. We tend to be way to harsh on guys who couldn't or didn't do technical wrestling. They weren't supposed to. Luger for example wasn't supposed to be a wrestler, he was supposed to be an athletic genetic freak that was super powerful.