Question about titles and popularity (mainly in Japan)

[SWF Fan]

This got me thinking last night about how much this game seems to hold back the talent in Japan if their not a middleweight or above.

Just hear me out before discrediting what I'm thinking right now.

I figured I'd use a real life example for this but when I think of NJPW I think of names like Jushin Liger, Tiger Mask,Prince Devitt and so on wheras I don't really know that much about the Heavyweights in the company. Then with NOAH the likes of KENTA enter my mind and so on. But the way this game works because of how the titles are set and popularity is set these wrestlers that at times would main event shows would be down the order of the card as they are set to at most upper midcard.

It got me thinking about how this could be fought against so that I don't know like it could be made to reflect real life more in the C-Verse. I guess the best way around it would be to change the level of titles and increase popularity for a lot of the littler workers. Say for BHOTWG have its Junior Heavyweight Title, Its Heavyweight Title set to Main Event status, the normal Tag belts and the BSJ trophy set to midcard and then the openweight and Junior Tag belts set to lower almost so that there is a title at every level for each weight class and opens up for Japan to improve as a wrestling industry as more names are being made I guess.

Hell in my mind it made sense anyway when I got up, I expect I'm talking a lot of bollards though

[Infernalmiko]

The guys you mentioned are pretty much always placed midcard in New Japan cards. They would main event for a junior themed show and other rare exceptions but otherwise the main event matches are all heavyweights. In alot of ways I think the game is kinder to the super juniors than RL is.

[hrdcoresidebrns]

I understand what you're saying but I'm not sure you're going about it the right way. I think that what you're talking about involves more of the title prestige, not popularity. For example, despite the IWGP junior heavyweight title being one of (if not THE) most prestigious light heavyweight title in the world, it rarely main events shows.

If you follow NJPW, the main events are always the heavyweight bouts with the exception of the BotSJ tournaments. The same goes for NOAH really. KENTA, Tiger Mask, Lyger, etc. may be very well known and the super junior style has its fans, the shows and companies are built around Nakamura, Tanahashi, Rikio, etc.

The Cornellverse illustrates that beautifully I think. The junior division of BHOTWG is a strong focus of the company, but not the primary focus. The main eventers are still the Kudos, Nakasawa, Horri, and Masunos. If there was a change to made to make things more parallel to real life, I think it would to make the BotSJ tournament title a main event title. That way you can set up a tournament event to only have juniors and have a super junior match main event. This also would give the one that wins a huge boost in popularity in game (trust me, I've done it and had Hell Monkey go from C in pop to A with the one event).

That's just me though.

[SWF Fan]

I may try out that suggestion above, thanks

[King Chono]

I don't think there's ever been a case where a Jr. Heavyweight title match has been above a heavyweight title or heavyweight tag title in card position or importance. Jr. title matches are usually bottom to middle of the card. Even on the biggest show of the year(New Japan's Tokyo Dome show), there's a "dream match" of Tiger Mask IV vs Naomichi Marufuji which is still below 3 other matches. The Jr. Tag title match is the second match on the card.

I'd also like to point out you are not Japanese, and probably don't even follow puro. You're looking at it from the ROHbot perspective. KENTA is not a top draw in NOAH. If Juniors were really "main event" level, people wouldn't graduate to the Heavyweight division ever. I mean hell, it's even called a GRADUATION.

[Bigpapa42]

Yeah, I agree with the respones that the CV represents reality quite nicely in this regard. The names that are mentioned - KENTA, Liger, Tiger Mask, Kanemoto - have never held the heavyweight title in any of the primary promotions. Tiger Mask II - better known as Mitsuharu Misawa - did so after graduating to the heavyweight division. Heavyweights remain the primary attactions in Japan.

[alden]

I think the puro style is more geared towards the bigger wrestlers. But i think wrestling in japan is not all about position on the card. Look at wcw.....they showcased some of the best "juniors" in the world but they always were stuck in the middle of the card. I felt the juniors were treated with respect in most part. I think njpw just try's to "group" all the matches together. You might have a few tag matches......the one or two joshi matches.....then cruiser weights and then the big guys. It might just be more grouping then anything.

[King Chono]

Originally Posted by alden

I think the puro style is more geared towards the bigger wrestlers. But i think wrestling in japan is not all about position on the card. Look at wcw.....they showcased some of the best "juniors" in the world but they always were stuck in the middle of the card. I felt the juniors were treated with respect in most part. I think njpw just try's to "group" all the matches together. You might have a few tag matches......the one or two joshi matches.....then cruiser weights and then the big guys. It might just be more grouping then anything.

Men and Women promotions don't co-mingle. Men shows are all men. Women shows are all women.

[alden]

I thought they had joshi shows on all the shows. my bad

[SWIFT]

Originally Posted by King Chono

Men and Women promotions don't co-mingle. Men shows are all men. Women shows are all women.

In the larger promotions. On indies there is some mingling, BJW--which is a male promotion--have had very good intergender deathmatches (Miyamoto/Kimura vs. Kobayashi/Ozaki immediately comes to mind). A somewhat recent period in BattlARTS, a period in K-Dojo. Those two being examples of female wrestlers being a part of the promotion.

Then you have the occassional joint cards (due to promotion relations or whatever) where there are a mixture of women and men matches.

[kaithekender]

Just popping in to say that Mayumi Ozaki is my favourite heel. Male or female. Ever.

Also, what King Chono said is absolutely correct. Even though the Super Juniors are sometimes more popular or well-known than some of the heavyweights, there's a barrier there. You don't often see the juniors beating the heavyweights. Often, you don't even see them facing off. Puroresu(at least in the big promotions) is very segmented. You have your juniors, your heavyweights, and then your joshi. Joshi don't beat juniors(on the rarfe occasion of an intergender match), and juniors don't beat heavyweights.

To put it into perspective, KENTA(at his current weight) winning the NOAH heavyweight title would be like Pelle Primeau winning the ROH title tomorrow. It would elicit a collective "uhwhaaaaaaaaa?" from the Japanese audience.

I love Kenta, but realistically, until(if) he graduates to heavyweight status, he will be upper midcard at the absolute best, and he will not win a heavyweight title in Japan.

And honestly, I don't see KENTA graduating to heavyweight anytime soon. NOAH needs to have at least a few non-spot monkey faces in their junior division.

[SWIFT]

What about the case of Marufuji. He is obviously still a junior and not much heavier/bigger than KENTA actually.

Exception?

[Bigpapa42]

Originally Posted by SWIFT

What about the case of Marufuji. He is obviously still a junior and not much heavier/bigger than KENTA actually.

Exception?

I would say "exception". Sugiura and Ogawa are both a bit smaller and have held the GHC heavyweight title, so maybe NOAH is a bit more flexible. But its still primary the heavyweights.

[King Chono]

Originally Posted by SWIFT

What about the case of Marufuji. He is obviously still a junior and not much heavier/bigger than KENTA actually.

Exception?

Marufuji and Ogawa were done for shock value to see if it would increase attendance at all. Attendance went down and they learned their lesson.

Sugiura on the other hand is bonafide Heavyweight now. He may be short but he's very thick, and can convincingly stand toe to toe with other heavyweights. He also mostly has the belt because of all the exposure he's gotten in the last year from New Japan. NOAH's been off TV for over a year and he's the only person from NOAH who's got a LOT of air time via New Japan. Thus they're using him to try to lure some New Japan fans to NOAH events.

Plus Marufuji is now pretty much a junior again since his return.

[Wrestling Century]

Originally Posted by King Chono

Men and Women promotions don't co-mingle. Men shows are all men. Women shows are all women.

I think that Chyna in the US proved differently.